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差不多一億一到一億三對不對 應該差不多啦根據他的風機的大小好 他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會有損壞二成十吧"},{"start":126.806,"end":144.14,"text":"那修一支好幾千萬所以那個是很CP值很高的好啦 那這個海上的更誇張你知道一支多少錢嗎一支14億14億喔要採幾支 本來要採幾支本來要採幾千支喔有這麼多嗎"},{"start":153.968,"end":159.669,"text":"我每次聽到這個都背脊發涼這傢俬那是溫室的,我們的傢俬那是溫室的德國人也來,美國人也來我跟你們講,一斤十四億,一千隻,天文數字啊那他的利息,他是貸款嘛那我們的行庫用低利貸給他嘛那他的投資報酬率一定是超過他的銀行貸款有利潤,他才繼續幹嘛"},{"start":183.325,"end":207.614,"text":"那現在聽說跑掉了,那跑掉是好事還是壞事?博定你說,你怎麼說?現在其實第一個是說,的確台灣有幾家他們也有來找我們環境部抱怨,抱怨了一些事情,當然因為當時的開發,不過這個是經濟部的工作,還是你們要回答?"},{"start":210.031,"end":220.731,"text":"我記得以前第一次簽約的一度電視好像五塊七啊多少嘛後來就降到五塊降到四塊多那降到四塊多你就不合啊"},{"start":221.414,"end":241.551,"text":"沒有他現在他要自己直接找買主自己找買主那這個耗損率應該很高現在有幾隻在做跟委員報告一樣現在大概379隻那我目前的裝置容量大概3G左右那到2025年大概是5點多G那初估應該是500到600隻不會到1000隻因為這個"},{"start":246.375,"end":271.045,"text":"裝置容量會隨著這個技術的精進它的容量單次的容量會越來越大所以這個支數呢會變比較小那再者跟委員報告這個我們剛好剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利 三百多支對都非常順利的運轉中颱風來不怕目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題而且是直接掃過去的"},{"start":272.581,"end":295.959,"text":"因為我不太記得,大概是前年去年都有這樣台風來的時候,他是把它關掉,還是自己會關?他超過一個風速,差不多中度台風等級,他就會鎖在那邊鎖住,保護他自己所以就不太容易被吹斷,這個一吹斷就完蛋了這個事情要修理啦,這一支修理,我看一支14億,修理我看要五六億"},{"start":299.102,"end":321.281,"text":"就是委員這邊跟您報告一下就是我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候其實針對台灣特殊的狀況就是颱風跟地震的部分我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準那就是在台灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設所以呢基本上我們的風機的規格其實比歐洲"},{"start":321.943,"end":329.608,"text":"再多延一點點然後再來就是這個業者的部分目前就是我們領選到的業者就是"},{"start":330.808,"end":356.613,"text":"離岸封建是先示範潛力然後再區塊嘛到目前為止都是潛力的長子的業者那目前的業者都很順利的在往前走那我們希望在這個預定潛力長子的時間都可以完成那我們也真的很順利在走那再稍稍的這個宣傳一下我們去年的風機累積的裝置量其實是全世界第五"},{"start":357.318,"end":360.544,"text":"你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?"},{"start":363.585,"end":389.355,"text":"靠近一點靠近一點好因為我看到的風機我到處都有去看漢堡 德國 北邊 北海內蒙古我們都去看了我們也是有在做功課的那個是風長穩定 緯度高沒有颱風地震也相對少的地方他們的風力發電的成本成本很低"},{"start":392.856,"end":398.481,"text":"都用不完那我們這邊東北季風台灣海峽又淺風又急然後颱風又多"},{"start":404.547,"end":422.096,"text":"這個採風機那麼貴 受得了嗎我一直到現在 還有這個很大大的疑問那你們的目標是500隻 1000隻還是到現在300多 增加到500多這樣很挺外商跑掉了 現在變成中鋼 台電自己在賣是做得到嗎"},{"start":427.638,"end":430.692,"text":"我們很驚訝,很害怕,害怕到排名二十,排到大家都..."},{"start":434.388,"end":459.679,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們潛力場直到明年之前的這個廠商基本上呢廠商都沒有跑掉而且都在進行中那我們台電的案場也在施工中目前台電有兩個案場第一個案場是示範案場他其實已經完工已經在運轉了那第二個案場是潛力場直目前在施工中那目標是今年會完工"},{"start":460.299,"end":465.643,"text":"好,謝謝,第二個我要請問部長,我們現在連旗的農民,農民以前是用惡佛、惡力交換、惡佛勢力交換等等,那就是汙染,後來就改成現在的R124還是R125?"},{"start":485.619,"end":504.328,"text":"因為二氧化合物以前是說它不會分解,然後它可以飄到大氣層,會把臭氧層都燒掉,打破洞對不對?佛力碳化物所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嗎?R14對R14還是R什麼?R134R14吧,多少?R14吧"},{"start":512.813,"end":533.13,"text":"沒有 浮氯碳化物來來來現在我們就是跟委員報告浮氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特樓議定書管制然後他有現用逐步到禁用那他會用這個HFC來取代那我們也會依蒙特樓議定書的時程來管制好那再來今天要特別提那個"},{"start":534.778,"end":557.883,"text":"PFAS跟poly-fluoroalkyl substance這個在醫界是聽到都要嚇死的因為以前都疾病這個東西已經用一段時間了已經到處都摻這個東西那怎麼今年去年才開始又熱起來是什麼原因 柏定"},{"start":558.943,"end":588.209,"text":"是有人想要賺這條錢還是沒有這個其實在2008年就施德克某公約就有了啦2008年我們其實稍微慢一點點但是其實就很努力的去希望有管制所以去年我們就抱怨了提出一個管制的一個方案挂部會一個計畫啦所以的確是有管制公告來進行那管制因為這個東西好像施到人體裡面差不多一兩年會排泄嘛"},{"start":588.849,"end":602.025,"text":"那不容易排出那排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛我經常去看我去培養的細菌,譬如益生菌或是乳酸菌我就把它分解可以分解塑膠,可以分解水,這樣"},{"start":608.737,"end":629.68,"text":"我在想應該有可能有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無積物的喔所以這道都叫新生物學加下去不然的話這個是無解嘛那現在它是佛皆嘆嘛就是我們講的會產生這些毒物啊我們等一下吃便當那個便當裡面有一陣薄膜"},{"start":630.782,"end":650.668,"text":"那個就是這種東東的,不然的話便當坐在那裡就燙了,那一定沒辦法給它解開那解開,你便當放在那裡,我們吃飽,我吃,劉建國早晚也吃,吃吃之後吞吞下去,那如果放久了,信使者跑到食物裡面更多,我也不知道,沒人去檢查,吃吃下去,會死就死,不會死就死"},{"start":657.895,"end":680.436,"text":"所以你這什麼是要安保物不是 根本報告 其實公約有禁用的物質像PFOA PFOA是那些它就不能用到這個食品保采區所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講所以現在如果有的部分是是沒有禁用的物質放進去的但是因為PFS是一個很大的家族有些已經開始禁用了 有些還沒有"},{"start":681.436,"end":702.552,"text":"我跟你講喔,我朋友在做晶片的,他們說這種東西,他佛器接,你看,接出來就是什麼咚咚的,我們那個手機上面一層薄膜那個是非常非常非常貴的,全世界四家工廠在做,台灣根本不會做,所以那種東西就是晶片在用的"},{"start":703.853,"end":731.393,"text":"對不對 沒錯吧那那個有沒有毒性 那當然有啊所以這個科技的進步是很可怕的那我們環境部在跟著後面跑那歐盟講常常看到東西就訂了一大堆那我們就跟著走我們永遠都在跟著後面跑啦那科技界一直在發展我們這個也沒辦法所以你現在訂這個我們不可以贏我們現在每天都在吃在贏"},{"start":732.634,"end":750.112,"text":"那有什麼辦法跟委員報告就是不能用的我們禁掉以後他就不會用進去那當然他會有替代產品像我們碳比如說九個碳八個碳慢慢管下來管到六嘛四個碳就還沒有列管因為他在這個危害的分析方面還"},{"start":750.632,"end":774.517,"text":"那我們那個便當那個膜那個膜也不是都只做這個因為他還有其他的塑膠膜這些是可以在食品等級可以用的那部分是沒有問題啦但是對於我們已經禁用的話就不能再去用在這邊好那最後的問題最後是一個剛剛那個圖前期很多委員都問那個綠林綠林你現在春天這麼年輕啊那是要幹什麼"},{"start":777.056,"end":783.82,"text":"他很多工作,現在兩萬兩千個工作機會,等著大家去工作是要去輔導,還是要抓人?沒有啦,這個是幫助大家走到未來的工作機會啦剛剛那個圖圈吉說的,圖委員說的勞工,比較勞的這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論想辦法"},{"start":802.031,"end":812.721,"text":"你不要找一些高階的,有程度高,一般來就比較好找套路啊,現在老的比較多,要訓練到有什麼初級的,還可以到中級,這樣可以改觀我們的就業啊,這是比較重要吧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時40分）謝謝召委。我們請彭部長，台電有來嗎？"],["主席：台電沒有，經濟部有來。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：經濟部鄒副署長。"],["主席：鄒副署長。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長還有經濟部，我今天請教你們四件事情，第一件事是海上的大風車如火如荼，我有個朋友是船長，是在鑽井的，我的認知如果不對的話你幫我糾正，陸上的風車現在差不多有四百多支嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：陸上大概兩百支左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：有幾支壞掉？幾支是好的？我去彰濱工業區一大堆都壞掉了……"],["彭部長啓明：請能源署回答。"],["鄭副組長如閔：委員好。海上風機目前的狀況都有在持續運轉中。"],["蘇委員清泉：都有在維修？我說兩百多支有幾支壞掉的啦？"],["鄭副組長如閔：陸域風機的話，因為有些確實……有風向……還有持續運轉的部分，運轉的狀況我們可能需要再清點一下再給委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為台電的人跟我講1支的成本一億多，差不多1億1到1億3啦，對不對？應該差不多啦！"],["鄭副組長如閔：要根據風機的大小，因為……"],["蘇委員清泉：好，看大小支啦！他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會損壞20%、30%，修1支好幾千萬，所以CP值很低耶！好，那海上的更誇張，你知道1支多少錢嗎？1支14億，是14億喔！本來要擺幾支？本來要擺幾千支耶！有這麼多嗎？我每一次聽到這個都背脊發涼，子孫就「穩死」的啊，我們的子孫「穩死」的！德國人也來、美國人也來，我跟你說如果1支14億，1,000支是天文數字啦！它是貸款嘛，我們的行庫用低利貸給它，那它的投資報酬率一定是超過它銀行貸款之類的，有利潤它才繼續幹嘛，現在聽說跑掉了，跑掉是好事還是壞事？部長，你說，你好好說喔，不要亂說喔！"],["彭部長啓明：其實第一個，的確臺灣有幾家他們也有來找我們環境部抱怨啦，抱怨一些事情，當然，因為當時的開發……不過這個是經濟部的工作啦！還是經濟部要回答？"],["鄭副組長如閔：委員，不好意思……"],["蘇委員清泉：我記得以前第一次簽約的1度電好像是5塊7還是多少，後來就降到5塊、降到四塊多，但降到四塊多，他們就不划算了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，它現在要自己直接找買主……"],["蘇委員清泉：自己去找買主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個耗損率應該也很高喔！現在有幾支在做了？"],["鄭副組長如閔：跟委員報告一下，現在大概379支，我們目前的裝置容量大概3G左右，到2025年大概是五點多G，預估應該是500到600支，不會到1,000支，因為裝置容量會隨著技術的精進它單支的容量會越來越大，所以支數會變比較少。再者，我們剛剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利……"],["蘇委員清泉：三百多支？"],["鄭副組長如閔：對，都非常順利……"],["蘇委員清泉：都在run了？"],["鄭副組長如閔：非常順利的運轉中。"],["蘇委員清泉：颱風來不怕？"],["鄭副組長如閔：目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題，而且是直接掃過去的，我不太記得……大概是前年、去年都有這樣過。"],["蘇委員清泉：颱風來的時候是把它關掉？還是自己會關？"],["彭部長啓明：它超過一個風速，差不多中度颱風等級就會鎖在那邊，不會轉……"],["蘇委員清泉：就鎖住？"],["彭部長啓明：鎖住，保護它自己。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就不太容易被吹斷，這個吹斷就完蛋了啊！這要怎麼修理啦？1支14億，我看修理要5、6億？"],["鄭副組長如閔：我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候，其實針對臺灣特殊的狀況颱風跟地震的部分，我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準，在臺灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設，所以基本上我們風機的規格其實比歐洲再多嚴一點點。再來業者的部分，我們遴選到的業者，就是離岸風電是先示範、次潛力然後再區塊，到目前為止都是潛力場址的業者，目前的業者都很順利的在往前走。我們希望在預定潛力場址的時間都可以完成，我們也真的很順利在走，再稍微小小的宣傳一下，我們去年風機累積的裝機量其實是全世界第五。"],["蘇委員清泉：你說的我都聽不懂耶，你好像螞蟻在講話。"],["彭部長啓明：要靠近一點。"],["鄭副組長如閔：對不起。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我到處去看風機，漢堡、德國北海、內蒙古，我們都去看了，我們是有在做功課的，那個是風場穩定、緯度高、沒有颱風、地震也相對少的地方，他們風力發電的成本很低、都用不完，但我們這邊東北季風，臺灣海峽又淺、風又急，然後颱風又多，擺風機又這麼貴，受得了嗎？我一直到現在還有大大的疑問。你們目標是500支？1,000支？還是現在三百多增加到五百多就喊停？外商跑掉了，現在變成中鋼、台電自己在處理，是做得起來嗎？我們很懷疑，很怕子孫負擔利息到以後大家都……好像馬關條約耶！"],["鄭副組長如閔：跟委員報告，我們潛力場址到明年之前的廠商，基本上廠商都沒有跑掉，而且都在進行中，我們台電的案場也在施工中，目前台電有兩個案場，第一個案場是示範案場，它其實已經完工在運轉了；第二個案場是潛力場址，目前在施工中，目標是今年會完工。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，OK，謝謝。第二個，我要請問部長，你們請回。我們現在冷氣的冷煤，冷煤以前是用二氟二氯甲烷等等，那就是污染，後來就改成現在的R-124還是R-125？二氟二氯甲烷以前是說它不會分解，然後可以飄到大氣層，會把臭氧層都燒掉、打破洞，對不對？有這個……"],["彭部長啓明：氟氯碳化物。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，R-14……"],["蘇委員清泉：是R-14還是R-134？"],["彭部長啓明：R-14吧？氟氯碳化物，來。"],["郭副司長孟芸：跟委員報告，氟氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特婁議定書管制，它有逐步限用到禁用，會用HFC來取代，我們也會依蒙特婁議定書的時程來管制。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，再來，今天要特別提PFAS（Per-and polyfluoroalkyl substances），這個在醫界聽到是都快嚇死的，會引起很多疾病。"],["彭部長啓明：很毒。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這個東西已經用一段時間了，已經到處都摻這個東西，怎麼今年、去年才開始又熱起來？部長，是什麼原因？是有人想要賺這筆錢還是……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，這個其實在2008年斯德哥爾摩公約就有了啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：2008年？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們其實稍微慢一點點，但是就很努力的希望有管制，所以去年我們報院提出一個管制的方案，一個跨部會的計畫啦，所以的確是有管制公告來進行。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個東西好像吃到人體裡面差不多一、兩年會排泄嘛……"],["謝署長燕儒：不容易排出！"],["蘇委員清泉：排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛！部長，我建議有沒有辦法去培養細菌，看益生菌還是乳酸菌，有辦法把它分解，可以分解塑膠、可以分解這個，我在想應該有可能，有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無機物喔！所以這個要請生物學家去研究，不然這個是無解嘛！現在它是氟接碳，就是我們講的會產生這些毒物，我們等一下吃便當，那個便當裡面有一層薄膜，那個就是這種東西耶！不然便當是紙的馬上就溼掉了啊，那層膜就把它隔開來，現在你便當放在那邊，我們扒來吃、劉建國召委也吃，吃完吞下去，如果放越久是不是跑到食物裡面更多？我也不知道耶！也沒人在測這個，吃下去會死就死，沒死就算了，部長，所以你們現在是要怎麼搞？"],["謝署長燕儒：不是，跟委員報告，其實公約有禁用的物質，像PFOA、PFOS那些就不能用到食品包材去，所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講，現在如果有的部分是沒有禁用的物質放進去的，但是因為PFAS是一個很大的家族，有些已經開始禁用了，有些還沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟你講，我朋友在做晶片的，他們說這種東西用氟去接矽利康，接出來就是什麼東西呢？是我們手機上面一層薄膜。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個是非常、非常、非常貴的，全世界才4家工廠在做，臺灣根本也不會做，所以那種東西就是晶片在用的，對不對，沒錯吧？"],["謝署長燕儒：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個有沒有毒性？當然有啊！"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以科技的進步是很可怕的，我們環境部就跟著後面跑，歐盟常常看到東西就訂了一大堆，那我們就跟著走，我們永遠都跟著在後面跑啦，科技界一直在發展，我們這也沒辦法。所以你現在訂這個說不能用，我們現在每天都在吃、在用，有什麼辦法？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，不能用的我們禁掉以後它就不會被用進去，當然它會有替代產品，像我們碳，比如說9個碳、8個碳，慢慢管下來管到6嘛！像4個碳這些都還沒有列管，因為它在危害的分析方面還沒有……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們便當那個膜……"],["謝署長燕儒：那個膜也不是都只做這個啦，因為還有其他的塑膠膜這些，是可以在食品等級用的，那部分是沒有問題啦，但是對於我們已經禁用的，就不能再去用在這邊。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，最後，剛剛涂權吉還有很多委員都問綠領，你現在培養這些年輕人是要做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：他很多工作機會，現在2萬2,000個工作機會等著大家去工作啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：是要去輔導，還是要去抓人？有要開單嗎？要修理人？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦、沒有啦，這個是幫助大家找到未來的工作機會啦！當然，剛剛涂權吉委員說的比較老的勞工，這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論、想辦法。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，你不要找一些高階的、程度高，他本來就很好找工作啊，但這些老的、比較低層的，你們要給他訓練到最少初級或中級的，這樣才有辦法解決我們的就業啊！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：這是比較重要的嘛！好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。綠領未來就是綠巨人啦，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：休息時間到，我們繼續開會。","接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}