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個不同的部會當中那3400項這個數字當然是讓人看了非常的擔心那不過"},{"start":128.956,"end":143.174,"text":"他上面的三千四百項其實不包括國防部跟經濟部他說國防部還在整理資料請問一下部長目前整理資料的情況跟進度到什麼地方總指示"},{"start":144.671,"end":168.269,"text":"網友好通知是報告首先先跟委員講一下這個東西是我們在治安健檢的時候主動發現的沒有關係跟回報的事情所以你們如果是很早就發現的話應該資料找就好了對所以我們統部國軍總共有954部是有這個但是都屬於單機跟脫離網域的它是獨立作業的這是我們清查完的全國軍有954部那你什麼時候知道有954部是5月2號"},{"start":174.199,"end":203.201,"text":"對,那為什麼上個禮拜不回我資料我們現在已檢查,我們立刻回覆不是啊,我覺得很奇怪啊這個是左榮泰做的承諾啊我總質詢也沒為難他兩個禮拜也是左榮泰說的那我也願意給左榮泰時間啊啊,速發部回給我的是說你們國防部資料還沒有準備好然後你今天跟我講說原來你5月2號東西都好了那很奇怪,那你們東西都好了為什麼不給我"},{"start":205.509,"end":225.398,"text":"所以我們下去檢討那你們現在這900多部現在打算怎麼辦因為它屬於單機我們現在都禁止它使用了那因為它沒有跟民網連線它屬於獨立的網域沒有啦 我們一樣一樣來啦現在你先不要牽涉到連線上面的問題啦依照國防部的規範可以買中國的貼牌貨嗎不可以"},{"start":228.061,"end":253.382,"text":"所以我現在才問你要怎麼處理我們現在有精進的作為精進的作為是未來現在這900多部要怎麼處理我們已經停用了 全部都完全停用只要停用就算了我們會檢討當初為什麼會有因為這個還是要在說明原來是我們自己發現的是啦 900多部你要不要跟廠商求償跟他主張要他負法律責任這個是最基本的吧"},{"start":254.178,"end":280.049,"text":"你未來當然要改善嘛現在我是針對你這900多部你說有安全的疑慮先停用我同意但是這900多部要納稅人買單嗎這是我的問題這個責任總要追究吧我有沒有說錯沒有部長那個再麻煩部長督導一下相關的法律責任該追究要追究啦因為發生這樣的事情還是納稅人買單這樣不對吧"},{"start":282.114,"end":302.024,"text":"我們會去檢視一下相關的合約然後來進行依合約來進行好 看怎麼處置等你們方便的時候回覆給我我也不壓時間 這樣可以嗎好 再來就是因為這種事情一而再再而三的發生我老實講 我非常驚訝"},{"start":303.766,"end":329.36,"text":"也蠻困擾的因為我又接到檢舉說我們的資通訊產品就禁用中國製的東西然後呢但是我接到檢舉我一定去求證我一定求證我不會有人給我檢舉我的就算了所以我四月的時候跑去龍門營區按照他檢舉的資料我去了現場我去了現場看那個交換器"},{"start":331.071,"end":351.541,"text":"這個是我在現場看那個機器跟拍的照片大剌剌的就寫Made in China那我就覺得很奇怪這是我們政府早就宣示的政策而且這個機子是最近才裝的那怎麼會大剌剌的上面貼著Made in China那我們還是讓他放在我們國軍的營區當中呢"},{"start":354.673,"end":378.481,"text":"因為我那天看完了以後我有跟那個我們營區的弟弟兄說說這個事情可能要跟國防部反映一下因為你們應該要有一個標準的作業程序吧今天在你們所提出來的書面報告當中書面報告你們說要在營區裝智慧型警戒案執行規劃報告這個報告寫的都不錯啊"},{"start":384.003,"end":412.674,"text":"說你們一定不會用然後有省監人員攝影機不會用絕對不允許但現實的狀況就不是這樣啊部長這件事情你有掌握嗎他沒有通報上來我是不是請常務長好來是包委我簡單報告一下這個案子他兩個缺失第一個單位是以小額採購而且他沒有呈報到市民部來審核那這個的確是我們要再檢討精進的一個地方"},{"start":415.545,"end":432.434,"text":"我這樣說好了啦因為其實我那天去農民營區的時候跟那些弟兄有面對面的溝通嘛其實我覺得那些弟兄其實蠻認真也蠻負責的啦所以我腦袋我一直在想說他們應該不是故意的他們應該不是故意的"},{"start":433.234,"end":459.975,"text":"可能是採購的人員東西送來的時候在SOP的程序上面連看都沒看一下這個東西到底是哪裡做的因為他真的大剌剌的就寫Made in China結果我那天在這個影區看的時候我看到這一台因為我在找檢舉人的檢舉機器在哪裡我看完這一台了以後我到辦公室裡面又看到一台更大台的"},{"start":461.038,"end":479.227,"text":"又看到一排更大的牌那上面一樣是用簡體字寫那用簡體字寫我看了這個就是說這個貼牌只限於用在中國的區域那我一看就知道這中國字啦那我就問營區的弟兄說這東西哪裡來的他說是第六軍團從上面發下來的"},{"start":482.27,"end":489.459,"text":"不是他們買的這個事情他們有通報嗎這個是他們小兒採購沒有沒有他們那天"},{"start":491.96,"end":516.232,"text":"他們那上面一張你看的是他們自己想採購這個不是他們採購的這個他說是第六軍團發下來所以我後來才發文去問第六軍團所以你們怎麼會發這個東西給人家所以後面您查的六個採購暗號那六個採購暗號另外我們查的就是剛才您委員所指導的那個深瑞的那個那個監視器的主機的部分"},{"start":517.011,"end":534.84,"text":"沒有啦現在就這個已經不是深瑞這是這不是深瑞的監視器這個是交換器網路交換器是是是龍門營區的四個網路交換器是這個不是深瑞的這個是中國製的你有沒有看一下造物片有有四顆對那我現在的問題一模一樣"},{"start":535.76,"end":559.839,"text":"他們說這不是他們買的是第六軍團發的現在問題很簡單第六軍團怎麼會上面的單位發給我們基層的單位直接發中國製的交換器給他們因為你如果說基層的弟兄採購人員訓練不足SOP沒有建立好有一些疏失這個我都可以理解但東西是從上面發下來的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":561.226,"end":579.537,"text":"我這樣說有沒有錯這個我要下去再了解一下因為當初我的了解是是他們採小額採購然後沒有循序不是啦 那個是上一台這一台不是這樣那個書面報告他們有回給我再麻煩你們回去了解一下好不好因為"},{"start":580.714,"end":595.792,"text":"我相信政府做這樣的宣示,政策上面做這樣的宣示,大家都支持啊但問題是在執行面上面,從去年到今年一件又一件,一件又一件的爆發那顯然在執行面上面出了非常大的問題嘛部長我這樣說對吧"},{"start":599.629,"end":614.504,"text":"我想我們會再來做一個執行面上面的一個徹底的這個檢討好 那你們執行面上面到底要怎麼樣徹底的檢討這件事情你們方便的時候給我一個書面報告可以嗎是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時49分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。資安就是國安，我相信這個應該是大家目前的共識，今年3月的時候有查獲一家昇銳電子，之前是安控國家隊，結果做了丟人現眼的事情，說是臺灣的安控國家隊，結果在賣中國貼牌貨，把中國的監視器改標成MIT。據相關的資訊，國防部的軍事要塞、關鍵基礎設施統統都淪陷，4月的時候國家資通安全研究院也做了通報，它不僅僅是賣中國的貼牌貨，它的監視器主機竟然有連線到中國的行為，這個事情就大條了。第一個，賣中國貼牌貨；第二個，它的監視器主機連線到中國，竟然說是我們臺灣的安控國家隊。這件事情因為很嚴重，所以我在總質詢的時候有質詢卓榮泰院長，當時我在總質詢的時候，院長可能對於過去這兩個月所發生這樣的事情沒有什麼掌握，也沒有關係，我就給院長時間，院長說他兩個禮拜會要求所有相關的部會清查最後的結果。我等到上個禮拜五，兩週的時間到了，因為負責統合的是數發部，數發部要把資訊回傳回來，數發部回傳的是他們目前統計有3,400項這樣的產品用在各個不同的部會當中，3,400項這個數字當然是讓人看了非常擔心，不過上面的3,400項不包括國防部和經濟部，國防部還在整理資料。請問部長，目前整理資料的情況和進度到什麼地方？"],["顧部長立雄：請通次室。"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，通次室報告。首先，先跟委員講一下，這個東西是我們在資安健檢主動發現和回報的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，所以你們如果是很早就發現的話，應該資料早就好了。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們統計國軍總共有954部，但是都是屬於單機和脫離網域的，它是獨立作業的，這是我們清查完的結果，國軍有954部。"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼時候知道有954部？"],["鄧次長恩憐：是5月2日。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼上個禮拜不回我資料？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們現在檢討，我們現在立刻回復。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！我覺得很奇怪，這個是卓榮泰做的承諾，我總質詢也沒為難他，兩個禮拜也是卓榮泰說的，我也願意給卓榮泰時間，數發部給我的回復是國防部資料還沒有準備好，然後你今天跟我講原來5月2日東西都好了，很奇怪，你們東西都好了，為什麼不給我？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們現在這九百多部打算怎麼辦？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為它屬於單機，我們現在都禁止它使用，因為它沒有跟民網連線，是屬於獨立的網域，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我們一樣、一樣來，現在你先不要牽涉到連線上面的問題，依照國防部的規範，可以買中國的貼牌貨嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：不可以。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我現在才問你要怎麼處理。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們現在有精進的作為，在整個採購……"],["黃委員國昌：精進的作為是未來，現在這九百多部要怎麼處理？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們已經停用了，全部都完全停用。"],["黃委員國昌：只要停用就算囉？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們會檢討當初為什麼會有這種情況，因為這個還是要述明，原來是我們自己發現的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，九百多部你要不要跟廠商求償，跟它主張要它負法律責任？這個是最基本的，未來當然要改善，現在我是針對這九百多部，你說有安全疑慮先停用，我同意，但是這九百多部要納稅人買單嗎？這是我的問題，這個責任總要追究，我有沒有說錯？"],["鄧次長恩憐：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，再麻煩部長督導一下相關的法律責任，該追究要追究，因為發生這樣的事情還是納稅人買單，這樣不對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會去檢視一下相關的合約，然後依合約來進行。"],["黃委員國昌：好，怎麼處置等你們方便的時候回復給我，我也不押時間，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們儘速。"],["黃委員國昌：好。再來，因為這種事情一而再、再而三的發生，老實講，我非常驚訝也滿困擾的，因為我又接到檢舉說我們的資通訊產品禁用中國製的東西，我接到檢舉一定會去求證，不會有人給我檢舉我就算了。所以我4月的時候跑去龍門營區，按照他檢舉的資料，我去了現場看那個交換器，這個是我在現場看那個機器和拍的照片，大剌剌的就寫Made In China，我覺得很奇怪，這是我們政府早就宣示的政策，而且這個機子是最近才裝的，怎麼會大剌剌的上面貼著Made In China，還是讓它放在我們國軍的營區當中呢？我那天看完了以後有跟營區的弟兄說這個事情可能要跟國防部反映一下，因為你們應該要有一個標準的作業程序，在你們今天所提出來的書面報告當中，你們有提到要在營區裝智慧型警監案的執行規劃報告，這個報告寫得都不錯，說你們一定不會用，然後有審監人員，攝影機不會用，絕對不允許，但現實的狀況就不是這樣，部長，這件事情你有掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們有通報上來，我是不是請參謀長？"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我簡單報告一下，這個案子有兩個缺失，第一個，單位是以小額採購，而且沒有陳報到司令部來審核，這個的確是我們要再檢討精進的地方。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，我那天去龍門營區的時候，有跟那些弟兄面對面的溝通，我覺得那些弟兄其實滿認真也滿負責的，所以我腦袋一直在想他們應該不是故意的，可能是採購人員在東西送來的時候，在SOP的程序上面連看都沒看一下，這個東西到底是哪裡做的，因為它真的大剌剌的就寫Made In China。我那天在這個營區看的時候，我看到這一臺，因為我在找檢舉人檢舉的機器在哪裡，我看完這一臺以後，我到辦公室裡面又看到一臺更大臺的，上面一樣是用簡體字寫，我看到這個貼牌只限於用在中國的區域，我一看就知道這是中國製，我就問營區的弟兄這東西哪裡來的，他們說是第六軍團從上面發下來的，不是他們買的，這個事情他們有通報嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個是他們小額採購的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，上面那一張是他們自己小額採購，這個不是他們採購的，他們說這是第六軍團發下來的，所以我後來才發文去問第六軍團怎麼會發這個東西給人家。"],["陳參謀長建義：所以後面你查的6個採購案號，另外，我們查的就是剛才委員所指導的昇銳的監視器主機部分。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，現在這個已經不是昇銳，這不是昇銳的監視器，這個是交換器。"],["陳參謀長建義：是網路交換器。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳參謀長建義：龍門營區的4個網路交換器。"],["黃委員國昌：這個不是昇銳的，這個是中國製的，你有沒有看一下照片？"],["陳參謀長建義：有，有4顆。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題一模一樣，他們說這不是他們買的，是第六軍團發的，現在我的問題很簡單，怎麼會上面的單位第六軍團發給我們的基層單位是直接發中國製的交換器給他們，因為如果是基層弟兄的採購人員訓練不足，SOP沒有建立好，有一些疏失，這個我都可以理解，但東西是從上面發下來的，問題就嚴重了，我這樣說有沒有錯？"],["陳參謀長建義：這個我要下去再瞭解一下，因為當初我的瞭解是他們採小額採購，然後沒有循序來做。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！那個是上一臺，這一臺不是這樣，那個書面報告他們有回給我，再麻煩你們回去瞭解一下，好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我相信政府做這樣的宣示，政策上面做這樣的宣示，大家都支持，但問題是在執行面上面，從去年到今年一件又一件、一件又一件的爆發，顯然在執行面上面出了非常大的問題，部長，我這樣說對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會再來做執行面上的澈底檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在執行面上面到底要怎麼樣澈底檢討這件事情，你們方便的時候給我一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來有請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}