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d":1984.363,"text":"主席：各位委員先進：大家早安今天城門大院教育及文化委員會安排由國科會就永續科研與政策溝通進行專案報告進行委員會域指導"},{"start":1985.953,"end":2001.618,"text":"永續發展為國家所面臨的重要議題國科會堅負科技策略佈局任務及補助基礎科研的使命因此除了規劃跨部會的淨零科技方案之外"},{"start":2002.678,"end":2011.828,"text":"從科研的角度攜手相關部會．達成敬禮目標．也長期支持永續防災與空間資訊等．跨領域相關學問．並將強化與各部會合作機制．"},{"start":2018.513,"end":2038.363,"text":"以在地需求為出發點．定期檢視研究議題．聚焦於本土永續發展方向．鼓勵更多學者投入跨領域研究．也期待更多研究藉階落地應用．或為施政參考依據．以展現科研價值。"},{"start":2039.895,"end":2067.104,"text":"近鄰科技方案在112年已奉行政院合定透過布局五大近鄰科技領域以跨部會協作方式協助社會、產業、生活及能源等四大面向系統轉型推動策略所重以人為本近鄰公司協力進而以科研角度達成國家2050近鄰碳排目標"},{"start":2069.23,"end":2095.586,"text":"113年跨部會進領科技相關預算總經費大約130億元此外國科會自然處下面永續防災與空間資訊三個跨領域學門長期透過大型專案計劃及學門整合型研究實現研究成果回應社會需求及協助行政治理的目標"},{"start":2096.787,"end":2100.011,"text":"以作為政府施政參考依據113年投入經費約4.8億元"},{"start":2106.246,"end":2132.243,"text":"跨域溝通需要持續對話學門的運作亦需要持續精進在確認研究議題方面國科會將聽取各領域建言強化以研究議題導向之學門領域以便適時回應各時期社會發展需求相關學門也必須與學界及各部會討論滾動修正年度研究議題規劃"},{"start":2134.448,"end":2137.57,"text":"在成果落地也要確實展現對產業與社會的具體貢獻,不負人民的期待。"},{"start":2144.775,"end":2168.135,"text":"為確保各學門機制健全．國科會也規劃推動學門精進措施．其使學門召集人、審查委員臨選．計劃審查機制等．更為公平公正公開．使更多學者有機會參與相關跨領域研究．讓研究資源發揮最大縱效．"},{"start":2169.036,"end":2190.69,"text":"此外,國科會亦將推動學門發揮各該專長特色﹑竊合政策發展及技術落地願景﹑使學術研發的成果能實際促進社會進步與全民福祉。過程中,自當與各該領域學者充分討論,擬據共識後方形成執行策略。"},{"start":2198.817,"end":2217.402,"text":"最後國科會再次強調身為推動科學技術發展的專責機構一定秉持多元、平等、包容的精神聽取學界建言擬具共識及研究方向使資源發揮縱效"},{"start":2219.082,"end":2238.611,"text":"面對多元複雜的社會議題透過連結知識政策與治理則無旁貸推動跨領域及跨部會的永續研究以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位委員平安健康萬事順心謝謝"},{"start":2244.309,"end":2257.418,"text":"謝謝吳主委的口頭報告現在我們進行詢答我們先把議事錄確定因為現在萬美玲委員也在請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2258.941,"end":2270.584,"text":"沒有?那我們議事錄確定喔那我們現在進行詢答每月初期委員質詢10分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為5分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員"},{"start":2284.187,"end":2295.852,"text":"陳秀寶質詢結束後進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位紅夢凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請吳主委有請主委"},{"start":2315.561,"end":2334.541,"text":"黃委員好吳主委好吳主委今天稍微排這個題目非常有意義我想也是我們大家看到說兩個禮拜前學界有500人連署兩個訴求呼籲國科會要重視永續發展的跨域研究對不對那其中有三個學門的發展方向"},{"start":2337.22,"end":2356.798,"text":"超過500名學者認為是不是跟賴總統推動的國家希望工程背道而馳也批評說國科會有黑箱操作那我想本席剛特別有看了一下你的這個專案報告不過我還是再給一個機會給你好好的來說明一下因為現在學界批評說這是實問虛答"},{"start":2360.775,"end":2385.613,"text":"當然沒有虛答啦我剛剛已經報告很清楚我們對於永續發展是非常重視的所以國會歷年來編列在相關永續的這個經費是逐年在增加特別是我們在國會內部永續學門現在也累積了非常多原來在各個不同領域的教授現在也集合到這個學門裡面來大家可以做這個跨領域的研究"},{"start":2385.953,"end":2409.814,"text":"但我現在請教的是說 這三個學門到底有沒有要做調整的方向沒有 我們這是一個誤會我們後來已經發出澄清的說明也非常清楚的所以我確認學門名稱沒有調整 領域沒有調整沒有調整人員沒有調整沒有調整計畫沒有調整沒有調整都沒有調整主會增加輔會減少是 那為什麼會有這樣的一個空穴來風"},{"start":2411.635,"end":2427.059,"text":"主委你會不會認為如果說我也很希望跟我們國科會站在一起啊如果說沒有調整主委剛剛連說4個沒有那空穴來風是什麼原因還有超過500人以上的這個學界大家連署可能本來無疑是何處了塵埃這個塵埃是怎麼造成的"},{"start":2433.325,"end":2457.284,"text":"可能是在我們國科委內部會議討論的時候我們的自然處是因為這個三個學門我們是持續在發展那業務量非常龐大有些計畫主持人原來是分散在各個其他學門那紛紛到這個地方來提計畫所以本來是在想說是不是有機會也讓其他的處"},{"start":2458.345,"end":2477.152,"text":"的這個行政工作也能夠來協助只是在討論這個可能性而已並沒有要縮減學門的計畫並沒有要縮減經費可能因為內部的討論還沒有對外溝通的時候就已經傳出去了那傳出去以後大家可能是"},{"start":2478.132,"end":2478.512,"text":"主委,分析相信"},{"start":2507.119,"end":2507.542,"text":"永續這個課題不應該被"},{"start":2511.065,"end":2539.63,"text":"因為這是選學嘛在全世界國際大家都在做這個選學近鄰碳排永續環境以及讓我們下一代這一代能夠有更好的環境這本來就是大家都在推動的方向嘛我們有看到這個國科會有一個近鄰科技方案近鄰科技方案從去年提出來到2026年至少這四年的期間會希望往2050近鄰碳排的一個方向來走對不對"},{"start":2540.53,"end":2551.143,"text":"您這邊也上任了這個到目前為止我想請教這四項核心重點目前推動的這個成果如何?"},{"start":2555.319,"end":2582.438,"text":"國科會在上游的基礎科研佈局我們投入非常高減碳潛力的前瞻科研的研發這是國科會的任務我們也協助經濟部在支持中下游產業所需的減碳創新技術研發與輔導中小企業進齡轉型這個我們都是國科會在協助我先請教一下四項核心重點哪四項"},{"start":2589.73,"end":2596.118,"text":"主委,您不清楚事項核心重點嗎?講不出來"},{"start":2597.659,"end":2616.976,"text":"好 來沒關係本席為什麼會沒關係我本席手上有資料我這個是我們去年2023年4月6號行政院的報告那其中方案裡面四項重點以人為本以中為史布局未來比肩國際"},{"start":2620.245,"end":2636.189,"text":"沒關係,我不是要作文比賽,不是要考文字但本席比較想要知道的是既然這個計畫你後面的結語是每年投入150億要做近鄰科技發展滾動式檢討那滾動式檢討所以說4年的計畫2023到2026總共投入600億"},{"start":2642.844,"end":2667.765,"text":"那本席或是說國人總是希望現在已經一年過去了嘛總是我們希望能夠看到一些成果你對這四項核心發展的重點、方向、努力為何但到目前為止本席跟我們辦公室的同仁去找資料還是去年這一份主委能不能滾動的還是說有什麼樣的一個業務的一個成果要讓國人知道"},{"start":2668.558,"end":2669.058,"text":"主委 我的建議啦"},{"start":2697.39,"end":2719.637,"text":"是說是不是能夠有一個成果還是你們每年因為你滾動檢討的部分在於是你的成果到底在哪裡所以黃委員我能不能提供給本市及給外界來做參考那個那個我們112年有個成果報告那113年我們在滾動可能可以再公開那個國科會的網站上來宣導我們可以再繼續做這件事情謝謝委員的指導是主委"},{"start":2722.551,"end":2731.532,"text":"好像對業務還沒有到很熟捏其實啊 那個來啦 主委我再請教每年150億啊不是全都國科會編列預算嗎"},{"start":2734.721,"end":2741.365,"text":"本期另外再來請教我們現在AI人工智慧基本法也公告了兩個月的時間到9月15日截止這個意見的交流那預計10月底會報行政院這個時間沒有問題"},{"start":2761.701,"end":2786.69,"text":"目前還是按照這個時程在進行我們國會已經通過我們的法規會的審查是那修正意見我們也都融進來了好那這一次兩個月的一個公告時間最多人疑慮的重點或是關心的方向是哪一個部分兩邊都有第一個就是產業界在擔心我們會不會採用像歐盟這樣非常嚴格的的這個懲罰的方式那我們的人權團體"},{"start":2787.97,"end":2789.091,"text":"18條人工智慧基本法"},{"start":2804.6,"end":2823.209,"text":"它又是一個概略性等於是說宣誓性的作用也沒有相關法則的部分我們同時在進行的就是我們各部會的作用法的定定是那現在我們更密集跟數位發展部在討論所以10月報行政院是基本法"},{"start":2823.689,"end":2840.007,"text":"那相關的配套也會一起出來相關配套也會說明沒有錯也會一起出來是不是不一定因為最後的這個法案的定定都還是要送到立法院來審查本席的意思是說因為我們現在大家都希望能夠加速嘛"},{"start":2840.287,"end":2863.077,"text":"尤其是全世界各國大家都在做AI那AI部分就要有一個指引至少告訴我們國內所有的民眾到底我們怎麼樣在AI產業裡面有哪些是法令不允許哪些是我們鼓勵大家來做所以基本法只是一個最基本的那後續您剛有提到兩個方向產業界會擔心是不是限縮太多"},{"start":2863.877,"end":2864.137,"text":"我們配套會說明"},{"start":2879.275,"end":2879.415,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2898.905,"end":2914.632,"text":"理想順利行政院院會通過之後這個會期我們可以來審查我期望如此謝謝本席也期望嘛因為從上個會期我就已經提過本席或是我們葛盧軍委員幾個委員也都有我們的修法版本嘛我們希望是行政院版本趕快過來我們可以一起討論嘛是謝謝那其中"},{"start":2916.923,"end":2929.986,"text":"大家也在提到AI就是所謂的這個超級電腦算力或相關的一個部分我們現在看到說連我們國科會下的這個算力都已經從原本的這個17名掉到106名了"},{"start":2936.837,"end":2954.758,"text":"我們現在正在積極佈建就是上個會期這個是事實我也跟委員報告過我們現在正在蓋新的Data Center那主機的裝置也在積極的進行當中那我們可不可以預想因為現在106名是事實我絕對希望我們都是名列前茅"},{"start":2955.419,"end":2966.655,"text":"但是這個如果說是客觀的事實的話各國也都在發展各國也都在佈建那我們可不可以請教你未來你現在在佈建這所謂超級電腦預計什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":2967.611,"end":2989.708,"text":"我們在明年會先完成在南部科學園區就會那我們預計我們的算力可以提升到什麼名次在未來的幾年之內我們希望能夠提升到280希望能夠進到大概全世界至少在前30名其實我覺得重點在於維持"},{"start":2993.351,"end":3013.958,"text":"主委您能夠認同嗎?這個是跟國際比較,算力只有更多,就沒有最好只有更好,那當我們現在我們認為是說我們在佈建這超級電腦下一代的時候,各國也在佈建,那所以說會不會我們明年後年出來之後,也許我們剛剛講的,你的這樣的一個算力已經算很好了"},{"start":3014.338,"end":3014.478,"text":"我先開始了"},{"start":3034.502,"end":3060.624,"text":"有人提評估因為發展AI的消耗能源極大2028年用電要成長到8倍所以要注意能源穩定的供應主委會不會擔心能源供應的問題我們經濟部很努力我相信可以你們經濟部你什麼時候管到經濟部去我是他們很努力他們很努力那我相信他們可以讓我們沒有這個問題所以你不會擔心我們有能源配比的問題"},{"start":3061.809,"end":3087.65,"text":"我們當然都會擔心但是我相信大家會努力我都相信公務員會努力啊但重點是上面的政策的問題啊那我們現在在講我拉回來第一題啊淨零碳排我們是希望能夠推動淨零嘛你也說經濟部投入最多150億裡面經濟部占大中那您知道在2028年的時候經濟部提供的即便是能源供給無餘經濟部提供超過80%是什麼樣發電嗎"},{"start":3092.43,"end":3100.153,"text":"現在正在努力要開拓綠能我知道 但是到2028年推估您知道超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎經濟部的業務不便回答主委 這是佛地魔是不是"},{"start":3110.933,"end":3122.048,"text":"火力發電超過80%這不是大家都知道的嗎?連民進黨政府之前的前總統蔡英文2025年淨零碳牌也講啦2025希望非核家園20 30 50 20再生能源30燃氣發電50燃煤發電"},{"start":3126.786,"end":3127.166,"text":"因為已經超過30秒了"},{"start":3143.244,"end":3146.047,"text":"請主委再跟孟楷委員溝通好嗎：或者是之後再以報告給他謝謝孟楷委員請回 主委請回"},{"start":3170.247,"end":3171.488,"text":"主委 今天早上看報紙了沒有"},{"start":3191.237,"end":3193.538,"text":"今天媒體大篇幅報導我國推動台灣AI行動計畫2.0今年編列了252.36億明年再編列157.48億但是AI行動計畫2.0沒有看到成效我國AI這個準備度世界排名19"},{"start":3212.708,"end":3215.072,"text":"為何我們投入這麼多資源但是我們AI進程不升反降?"},{"start":3230.487,"end":3238.275,"text":"主委,我想我的問題非常簡單,投入這麼多的資源也沒有說我們不努力,我想要知道為什麼投入這麼多資源,結果我們的AI進程不升反降,原因是什麼?"},{"start":3250.939,"end":3266.413,"text":"我們主要是在這個應用上面需要在努力發展過去我們比較不注重在自主的應用上面是嗎來主委上一次我們在專報的時候其實本席也發現我們其實從107年我們就開始推動這個AI行動計畫了"},{"start":3272.578,"end":3299.301,"text":"但是依據預算中心的資料我們顯示看到一個很弔詭的就是我國AI準備度世界排名從107年開始下降也就是說107年我們推動這個AI行動計畫但我們整個AI的世界排名從那一刻開始不斷下降所以這是不是代表從那個時候到現在我們很多關於AI的預算包括您剛所說的我們不斷增加很多的經費其實全部都打水漂了"},{"start":3300.202,"end":3324.847,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實並沒有打水標其實台灣是在協助全世界因為我們過去大部分台灣協助全世界結果自己都還顧不好是這樣的嗎忽略了自己的應用你這個情操太高囉就忽略自己讓自己不斷地衰退讓自己不斷地落下來我們沒有衰退你自己都還沒有顧好然後你去顧全世界我們幫全世界創造非常多的"},{"start":3325.327,"end":3349.525,"text":"主委沒有這種說法啦自己家小孩吃不飽然後先餵別人家小孩吃這是什麼理論我們如果沒有這樣的這個產業存在我們也不會有那麼好的經濟發展我想喔我們在這個全世界這邊給予合作或是協助本席絕對贊成喔那但是我想自己台灣的競爭力啊我覺得是不是我們的AI要提升啊這也是必須要注意的嘛所以你同意我這邊說我不同意你剛剛說的啊我們自己沒有顧好先去顧別人這樣有對嗎"},{"start":3353.968,"end":3356.99,"text":"主委啊 謬論啊 自己也要發展好 要兼顧啊 什麼先把全世界都 我們先支持他們 然後自己餓肚子沒關係 沒有這種說法喔如果喔 主委"},{"start":3374.483,"end":3374.503,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3391.054,"end":3408.125,"text":"接下來本席再跟您討論在主委你剛上任的時候本席也有提醒過主委目前我們AI導入產業的狀況其實非常的差您還記得嗎?當時本席有提醒您不管是個人或者部門有使用生成式AI工具的只有38%左右"},{"start":3410.406,"end":3434.152,"text":"導入公司營運流程只有16%整體台灣企業業還有84%是處於AI化的前期階段之前您剛上來的時候我有跟您提過這個不曉得您有沒有去重視當然我再看到我們國科會在2022台灣AI國力調查中公部門的AI成熟度的等級也只有3.3其實這個整個排行算起來是倒數第三所以其實"},{"start":3434.872,"end":3435.833,"text":"請主委做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3447.093,"end":3474.626,"text":"好 那個萬委員我跟你報告因為上次也是委員關心這個議題所以因為本來明年預算都編好了我們做了一些調整我們就是把相關的在硬體投資的資源因為我們的硬體已經做得非常的好產業發展得很好我們希望把一部分的這個資源拿來做這個AI應用軟體的開發雲端服務的建置這是我們接下來下年度"},{"start":3475.066,"end":3503.812,"text":"所以現在預算的使用有做調整了是嗎?有做調整了依照各位委員的這個建議我們已經有做調整我想知道這非常的重要所以也就直接問您一下AI的基本法草案現在進度到哪裡了?我們已經公告預告結束預告結束我們國會法規會也討論通過做非常小的修正我們連同這些修正就在10月底之前我們會送到行政院"},{"start":3505.432,"end":3525.179,"text":"主委我想本期在這裡再一次提醒您我想我們要打造這個AI之島其實不是只有這個您剛剛所說的說只是先賺錢然後這個AI供應鏈的這個護國群山產業去賺錢然後外銷出口的數字量力其實這是成績之一但是它不是全部所以我想我們要怎麼樣把這個AI的技術實際運用在我們的民生我們自己台灣我覺得這非常的重要"},{"start":3531.221,"end":3532.362,"text":"您同意嗎?同意所以您也是賴總統國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員嗎?對嗎?"},{"start":3561.865,"end":3574.409,"text":"8月8日您去參加第一次會議之後,那這個會議裏面包括淨零路線、綠能減碳等等有七大不同跨領域的議題在裏頭那會議當中也有提到永續發展對不對?"},{"start":3574.409,"end":3577.81,"text":"是所以永續發展是不是國家政策?"},{"start":3579.511,"end":3605.468,"text":"所以我相信你也會往國家政策的這個方向來走但是今天我們剛剛有委員提到其實在這個主委參加完這個總統說主席的會議之後傳出國科會以跨領域研究擴於分散不具成效那麼就要去拆解三學門到其他領域或者轉入工程處那剛剛本席聽您在答局的時候說這是一個天大的誤會但是我要講"},{"start":3608.55,"end":3625.776,"text":"第一個當時續名的理由這麼清楚那傳出來就是說您是因為跨領域研究過於分散而且不具成效那看來你說完全是空穴來風嗎恐怕也未必再來高達600位學者去連署這600位學者我想不管是他們的這個見識啦專業啦"},{"start":3628.817,"end":3628.837,"text":"再來﹖"},{"start":3643.994,"end":3660.108,"text":"這件事已經開始連署已經燒起來了但是您國科會回答的是說包括您剛剛在回答也是說我們很重視我們年年都有編預算這到底是回答什麼東西大家是在問您說為什麼要去把這三個選門去拆解掉這個有符合永續"},{"start":3660.768,"end":3661.409,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有要猜解,從來都沒有講過這句話"},{"start":3684.045,"end":3701.454,"text":"所以嘛今天大家才問你嘛第一個為什麼學者會這麼認為第二個為什麼媒體會這麼認為第三個為什麼今天我們委員在請教你的時候得到的答案你還是只是告訴我們說沒有啊我們很重視啊所以我們都有變預算啊所以你能不能再說清楚一點完全空穴來風這是不可能的"},{"start":3702.028,"end":3719.575,"text":"我剛剛已經講得非常清楚但是我也不知道為什麼會有這麼多人會連署那如果對我不滿意那當然也可以來舉出具體的我們看看怎麼樣去討論去改善所以您認為這件事情是空穴來風是衝著您個人來對您不滿意"},{"start":3723.794,"end":3747.894,"text":"主委所以這個焦點很奇怪嘛大家在討論一個這個很具體的永續的一個事情然後你會扯到說對您個人滿不滿意喔那當然我想說您要讓大家滿意這件事當然是很重要但是我想政策的方向性跟延續性跟執行力這才是最重要的啦可是政策沒有改變啊我們完全都沒有變啊"},{"start":3748.655,"end":3758.324,"text":"所以我想以後就要更審慎如果什麼都沒有為什麼學者會這樣誤會媒體會這樣誤會我覺得這也是主委要去檢討的地方那再來呢自己檢討檢討您個人嗎"},{"start":3765.693,"end":3791.173,"text":"主委,我想再查閱我們國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處的網站那洋洋灑灑其實總共大概有11個學門但是呢本期發現在這網站中各個學門的介紹內容真的乏善可陳有很多學門的資料其實已經很多年沒有更新了還有一些這個部分的學門只有成員的介紹跟次領域的代碼這是為什麼"},{"start":3792.509,"end":3811.813,"text":"我請我們治安署處長來回回應我們有些是因為年度的更動我們並沒有去update所以年度的更動好幾年不更動也算一種年度的更動抱歉所以要不要改進我們會改進 謝謝"},{"start":3816.716,"end":3830.952,"text":"這是非常不好的好不好因為你創建這麼多學門也投入很多的這個研究費用嘛那你就應該讓民眾大家清楚了解啊這種啊多年不更動叫做年度有更動這我們不能接受喔如果是這樣的話這個預算給的是冤枉好不好"},{"start":3831.653,"end":3842.478,"text":"接下來呢我想一樣我們又看到一個2022年永續發展學門的一個說明裡面有一個整合研究計畫的補助情形那本席發現新申請的案件從109年開始下降從251件下降到218件那更嚴重的是新申請案件通過比率從107年的49%下降到111年的35.8%那為什麼就申請數越來越少然後這個"},{"start":3858.985,"end":3863.208,"text":"因為我們整合型計畫多年起的這個合併越來越多所以新申請的自然就會減少因為我們的經費都一直在增加沒有減少經費是在增加當中"},{"start":3883.116,"end":3883.156,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":3902.353,"end":3902.373,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3930.285,"end":3935.63,"text":"主委請回謝謝萬美玲委員我們再來請柯智恩委員質詢謝謝主席我們是不是請吳主委請主委"},{"start":3949.326,"end":3965.35,"text":"科學委員好各位我想我很清楚范委員為什麼要排這個我們同樣來自學界所以當有600個學者要連署這是知識體大的一件事情那我們也知道我們長期也都申請過科會我們當然都申請人文人文說實在你看評比起來我真的覺得還蠻還蠻覺得蠻心酸的我們家總的預算來說人文處大概處長有沒有在50幾億然後我們自然處我再幫你講話你可以坐下來沒有問題"},{"start":3977.233,"end":3977.694,"text":"自然處60幾億工程處80幾億"},{"start":3993.546,"end":4011.108,"text":"主委也不用那麼樣無奈我說實在的今天你剛剛回答第一位紅委員的問題的時候你說可能是就是有一些行政人員的變動或者在內部的做一些的討論造成這麼的軒然大波但是主委我說實在的那表示國科會裡面整個的行政系統太脆弱"},{"start":4011.749,"end":4028.473,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4028.513,"end":4028.693,"text":"好,我們會檢討"},{"start":4051.104,"end":4067.019,"text":"好 這個還是有多一點的無奈但是我還是必須告訴主委有很多人跟我們來反映國科會目前為止其實沒有太大的一個溝通的一個做法學界是基本上是非常不滿的你不要看這個學界的這個整併不管它是不是一個事實即使總金額不變"},{"start":4068.08,"end":4074.582,"text":"光是每一個的專長在這個學門的分配當中你不要說什麼跨領域需要做一些的整合每一個在細節細分到這個學科你也知道已經細分到有稍微對於他們未來研究有任何的影響他們大家都會跳腳所以這個部分裡面真的是勸主委千萬不要再從上到下你要建立一個SOP然後我也很擔心你未來可能要調整學門可能你有一些的需求因為這件事件之後呢讓你完全裹足不前你看"},{"start":4095.788,"end":4096.048,"text":"謝謝各位人謝謝"},{"start":4117.273,"end":4123.516,"text":"但是我們人文處是不是經費可以多一點?我說實在的生年人真的是不少,然後竟然是差工程工程處差了30億這項花嗎?有啦,我們人文處經費也是逐年在增加但是差的工程處還是30億好不好?"},{"start":4133.041,"end":4133.581,"text":"來我們來看一下"},{"start":4151.67,"end":4174.841,"text":"基本上這整個都還是牽涉到整個人才上面的培育喔你104 你的114裡面你這科發基金裡面你大概編列了57億但是呢然後呢這些的名詞我說實在我每次看到國科會提出的名詞我都要追憶以前有千里馬計畫以前有什麼樣的東西然後現在又有一個跨領域然後2030學者養成哇塞 這個名詞非常的多我們一一來檢視一下我們先看下一頁審計部的審核報告裡面啊 抱歉"},{"start":4179.143,"end":4184.428,"text":"國際領域整合計劃當中你逐年減少而且連續兩年你的執行率未達五成這未達五成主委這你要不要稍微稍微說一下為什麼連續兩年不僅是你核定的補助的案件逐年減少而且你的達成率是未達五成的這個部分難道"},{"start":4201.002,"end":4201.663,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4219.423,"end":4219.623,"text":"主委 這概念中﹖"},{"start":4244.008,"end":4248.211,"text":"你花了這麼多錢然後來做這樣的事情卻有14%的人是提早離職的我再告訴你一個還蠻嚴重的就是你看看102到110 10年我們看一個計畫10年其實很準的你有178位然後這些所謂博士級的研究人員他是連續的補助10到22次這代表什麼"},{"start":4269.426,"end":4282.23,"text":"你看還有123位不斷的計劃結束完就是他是約聘嘛他都不是full time的job他是約聘然後計劃結束完之後呢他再來簽約再來簽約再來簽約然後重複的人其實是非常的多主委你應該知道嘛如果你都讓他用約聘然後這個計劃完再簽約他永遠都是在這個position所以你覺得這對高階科研的人才幫助有幫助嗎"},{"start":4295.834,"end":4317.257,"text":"我們當然是希望我們的各大學在聘用人才的時候盡量用正職啦但是但是你看你這些計畫你所培養這些人就是一個計畫3年5年結束之後再來給他簽約他永遠就在這個處在這個狀況當中但是我們現在因為各大學的教育不要是大學你的產業也沒有啊所以我只是告訴你"},{"start":4317.817,"end":4335.923,"text":"但是學界離職的大部分是到產業去了,因為產業需求人力的確...其實我們看到的投入產業跟學界任職找到正職的就是我所看到的,我包括產業界表示這些人就是不斷的在重複的申請你們的這個延攬的補助計畫,他永遠在延攬補助計畫"},{"start":4337.563,"end":4344.048,"text":"從學界離開以後我想指這178個你去看這178個這是數據我不要講結的這178個你們專門補助的所以我還是要特別提到這個部分來說然後呢國會過去只要遇到成效不佳可能你才剛上任國會只要過去這個成效不佳的時候呢你們就開始都會說這是我們我們要來精進我們的執行率我們要精進執行率結果呢你的做法是什麼"},{"start":4363.061,"end":4368.382,"text":"重新調整經費的配比重新讓計劃換一個名詞看起來好像成效比較高了但是呢我還是要說這對我們的整個的科研真的是沒有太大的幫助這我還是要誠心的提出這樣的一個呼籲否則你再變太多的錢你沒有給他們一個這樣的空間我說實在每個人就是用這個約聘的方法補助完再來補助再補一輩子做這樣的事情喔說實在國會這樣的花錢到底有沒有效我就要請這個主委要好好的思考一下"},{"start":4390.488,"end":4390.668,"text":"最後來看一下﹚"},{"start":4420.268,"end":4420.488,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4439.138,"end":4439.198,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4469.779,"end":4471.321,"text":"報告委員,我們現在是以南部從嘉義以南科學園區所在的這個範圍主要是技術體系,我們希望把需求端的產業"},{"start":4486.101,"end":4488.324,"text":"每個學校,所有聽到這個東西的話每個學校上來問,你可不可以告訴我一個標準啊,我電話接不完欸"},{"start":4504.103,"end":4530.211,"text":"高雄參旅學校有沒有?你要創新產業有沒有高雄參旅?都有都有我們其實所有學校我們都歡迎我們沒有B學校但是所有學校願意你知道高雄幾所技職學校嗎?主委你知道嗎?我們指的不是高職端是大專我們不只有15間好不好我們有10所技職教育大學10所技術型高中還有很多來下面還有什麼?"},{"start":4532.365,"end":4543.43,"text":"就是科大跟專科學校好啦那我就發個函啦因為很多人問我我就問到完全不行了然後我就發個函給你們來你看一下你們怎麼回覆我我問科委員報告你先聽我講完欸主委你說15間學院是會表達南部所具備的科技人才供給能量並非已經確定參與本案的學校名單如果你是這樣的話請你以後不要講15座好不好"},{"start":4556.135,"end":4557.076,"text":"對不起對不起我們要改善我們是歡迎所有的技職大專院校所以你會有一個標準"},{"start":4570.765,"end":4595.646,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,我們政案的時候會有應用的這個類別,那會有…所以不是只有15間?不是不是,所有的寄專院校我們都歡迎所以下次新聞稿裡面的部分裡面,你不曉得你們隨便一個經費,大家都很期望能夠獲得這樣的一個補助所以呢你就指名15間,然後我們根本不指這些學校,會造成一個非常大的部分然後你的回應也表達我說實在的你們並沒有準備好"},{"start":4596.767,"end":4598.029,"text":"因為現在正在準備當中計畫是明年開始所以我覺得這個宣傳跟這個實際的作為我覺得這個跟我們的理解是有一個很大的落差"},{"start":4614.828,"end":4625.86,"text":"最後一個就是有關於你們有一個南科追夢的計畫我還是要特別提醒你們全部都往台北去做一個而且就看得出來你們完全就是希望能夠有到能夠做一個南漂兩部曲我給予肯定鼓勵北部的優秀青年能夠到南下來追夢但是我說實在的"},{"start":4633.848,"end":4633.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4651.815,"end":4670.327,"text":"我們這些學校都歡迎我們一直都有跟他們在合作你們都有在合作問題是你們這個又是一個大的宣傳告訴我裡面就是積極的去北上徵尋人才然後呢對於南部這些學校來說的話到底什麼時候可以來把這樣的同樣北部這麼盛大的狀況裡面同時通通在在南部裡面好好的辦大一場"},{"start":4672.608,"end":4683.231,"text":"我們真的是在努力第一南部的人才可以留在南部工作第二我們也歡迎北漂人才回來我請吳主委你協調南科管理區在今年計劃解體之前或者明年可以到高雄到南部來辦真正的讓更多人願意到南部來不要讓北跟南互作一個失衡所以這是你承諾的要到這個部分來做這樣的一個處理好不好"},{"start":4697.876,"end":4698.316,"text":"下一位我們請葉元芝委員質詢"},{"start":4731.937,"end":4753.945,"text":"請問主委我順著柯真委員問一下因為你現在要編360億創南台灣的生態系推動方案打造南台灣成為人工智慧之島那我想問一下那種北台灣你現在是要把AI移到南台灣去是不是"},{"start":4755.636,"end":4762.905,"text":"現在只是說平台放到南台灣但是服務的對象是全國的那產業也是涵蓋全國那對於北台灣你有什麼計畫嗎?"},{"start":4769.232,"end":4791.811,"text":"我們因為預算編列要逐年不能夠一下編太多所以北台灣我們也會做中台灣也會做怎麼做嗎?就是南台灣我們現在把平台建起來以後我們會循同樣的模式因為要讓它成功如果不成功我們擴散也沒有用所以一樣的模式到時候會在中台灣跟北台灣做都會做南台灣你編的是五年的計畫"},{"start":4793.132,"end":4812.472,"text":"所以你預計什麼時候才會擴散到中台灣跟北台灣我們大概第一年執行以後大概就有個眉目了那北台灣其實我們在行政院已經有通過一個桃竹苗大細股的方案它的內容還沒有很具體所以當我們在內容還沒有很具體所以是"},{"start":4813.012,"end":4841.109,"text":"因為現在還在討論哪些區域要涵蓋進來所以有可能會在北台灣北台灣當然也會有 一定會有的就是說你也是要照顧一下我們北台灣也會 當然希望不要太久啦因為聽起來現在好像還沒有具體的計畫可是預算有限啦我知道預算有限但是因為我們來自北台灣當然希望能夠為北台灣爭取希望能夠快一點那另外就是我們AI如果要成長的話用電量會大增你對我們現在的電力有信心嗎"},{"start":4842.847,"end":4862.789,"text":"有信心有信心喔?你跟台電有研究過是不是?有問過台電?台電我跟台電還是台電有告訴你說絕對供電無虞?因為之前郭志輝部長也講說台灣要發展AI的話一定要可能不排除用核電但後來還有改口了啦現在"},{"start":4864.812,"end":4880.762,"text":"我不為難你的主委總而言之你站在產業的立場我覺得你也要如果說行政院有機會溝通的話也要注意他們要電的問題然後另外一個就是說因為我看到你在立法院詢答的時候很有信心就是說台灣應該在3年內我們的AI實力會超過日韓"},{"start":4882.91,"end":4906.585,"text":"但是我們立法院預算中心所提出來的報告指出我們AI排名跟超級電腦算力持續落後而且根據國際排名AI的準備度112年世界排名是14名現在下滑到19名落後新加坡南韓日本跟中國大陸所以如果你要在3年之內超過南韓的信心來自於哪裡"},{"start":4907.466,"end":4930.268,"text":"我們已經開始在編列預算未來幾年預算會投入雲端運算機房的這個建置所以之前是預算不足才落後只要我們預算編下去我們就會超前這個意思過去我們的重點可能比較注重在但是你會編預算別人日本韓國也會編預算所以我們在應用上也要再加強"},{"start":4933.59,"end":4955.621,"text":"因為這個題目很大我覺得主委講的稍微抽象一點我覺得有機會的話你應該把它具體一點再跟大家討論因為你的目標很宏大但是大家現在看起來不曉得你的具體做法在哪裡如果說只有變預算恐怕還是不夠"},{"start":4957.823,"end":4968.862,"text":"我們政府的鋼藥計畫方案已經編了編了以後接下來到年底之前就會有一些執行的真正的計畫就會出現到時候會跟大家報告"},{"start":4971.509,"end":4992.897,"text":"專題報告叫《永續科研與政策溝通》我知道為什麼早晚會排這個題目當然是因為有大概有600個學者吧就是針對國科會要把這幾個學門把它拆解重組表達非常的不滿我會表示這個不存在這個議題不存在但是因為我後來看了國科會對於後來到600個學者連署對這600個學者的回應實際上我覺得也是有點實問虛答"},{"start":4999.719,"end":5004.515,"text":"因為國安會的講法是說沒有沒有我們的預算編列有增加所以增加到48億是不是 是嗎"},{"start":5007.356,"end":5033.35,"text":"所以今年48億明年52億4.8億是國會本身但是我們永續的議題是100多億因為你們的回應是4.8億但是我覺得學者應該在乎的不是錢的問題因為所有的一個研究它需要長期的戰略跟長期的規劃那你忽然間把一些學問他可能正在進行當中的學問你把它拆解重組對於他的研究他忽然打亂了報告委員沒有要拆解啦"},{"start":5037.032,"end":5050.003,"text":"學者是這樣覺得嘛所以這中間又出現很大的問題啊所以今天稍微排的是永續發展科研與政策溝通這就很奇怪就是說你在這邊講說完全沒有這個問題結果有600個學者連署反對你"},{"start":5053.466,"end":5077.824,"text":"那大家吃飽撐著沒事幹去做這個事嗎?不可能嘛你一定是在溝通上出現了問題嘛如果你從來都沒有要去改變的話那人家是夢到嗎?還是忽然間是怎樣有人造謠嗎?一定是你們在對外宣傳的部分透露出這樣的訊息大家緊張你可以說他超前部署所以他做了這個動作嘛過程當中絕對有問題你不可能說他們無緣故去做這個動作"},{"start":5079.806,"end":5098.942,"text":"所以我覺得那個主委假設啦並沒有要拆解重組這件事情的話那你應該去檢討請問一下在政策溝通的過程當中出現什麼問題我覺得這個是今天可能啦我猜趙偉可能要排這個題目的原因啦但是呢這個你就自己因為等一下趙偉可能會罵你啦我就不多說話了"},{"start":5100.644,"end":5117.202,"text":"但是我就想繼續問因為今天既然講到永續發展跟所謂的淨零碳排我想問主委一個問題我們都知道其實中國大陸在這一塊是表現非常優秀根據外媒的報導比如說至少他們在中國大陸在"},{"start":5119.465,"end":5120.846,"text":"我記得竹偉你在剛上任的時候你有提到"},{"start":5146.522,"end":5156.222,"text":"你不排斥跟中國的科技做交流你也說你也無意讓中國科技持續落後只要在合乎法律的情況之下國會都會支持跟對岸來往"},{"start":5156.994,"end":5176.34,"text":"但是我們後來就看了一下現在的兩岸的交流我們就發現說好像屬於一種幾乎停滯的狀態左邊的圖是國際的交流其實在國際的交流方面就已經有下滑的趨勢你看2024年合定的件數355件已經比2017年幾乎腰斬左邊是國際的部分右邊是"},{"start":5181.804,"end":5210.172,"text":"國科會補助邀請大陸地區暨香港澳門科技人士來台的這個申請跟核定表到2024年只有三件然後預算總共是只有19萬等於是說你只有大概補助19萬那我們在整個計畫大概編多少錢呢我們的整個計畫大概編了3億多3億多中國大陸的補助19萬其實它的比例是非常的低那除了這個資料之外呢還有另外我們也可以看到"},{"start":5211.861,"end":5228.584,"text":"這是補助兩岸學術科技交流的申請跟核定的件數2024年申請18件 核定5件不管是申請件數跟核定件數都往下滑的趨勢請教一下主委現在兩岸到底學術是遇到什麼問題"},{"start":5231.716,"end":5254.105,"text":"國科會當然是一直鼓勵我們的學術研究我們的學者能夠跟全世界的學者交流往來才會進步那目前跟大陸方面的這樣的這個交流是受限於大陸方面對台灣的不友善的行為所引起的"},{"start":5254.525,"end":5277.758,"text":"所以是我們是我們邀他不來還是說因為我們覺得他不友善所以我們連邀都沒邀我們即使我們邀他們啊他們他們的國內啊其實也有自己的限制存在那我們這邊也要透過我們不是只有國科會我們還有行政院的機制在對因為因為我的瞭解不是這樣瞭解是說現在"},{"start":5278.818,"end":5303.703,"text":"你要申請學術對岸過來學術交流好像要專案審查嘛專案審查陸委會那邊就會擋了嘛那我是覺得學術歸學術政治歸政治啦就是說如果大家認為兩岸科技交流特別是我剛講在永續發展跟氣候變遷這一塊連美國都要跟中國大陸交流那台灣也可以秉持著就是科學交流的精神嘛對不對把政治撇一邊啦"},{"start":5305.251,"end":5328.681,"text":"我記得這個也是竹偉你上任的一個理想你就是說只要在不違反法律的情況之下兩岸科技多交流是好事我們只要法令允許可是實際上看得出來這個數字真的是下滑非常多那我就覺得非常可惜我覺得非常可惜就是因為政治的關係讓科技無法持續的合作那再來我想跟竹偉問一個計畫的進度比如說我們不是"},{"start":5334.517,"end":5339.425,"text":"國科會在之前前主委吳政宗那時候就已經對外宣布說台灣要在"},{"start":5341.166,"end":5364.081,"text":"捷克布拉格成立台灣第一座IC設計海外訓練基地那個時候講得非常的盛大那這件事情在賴清德總統今年6月接見捷克參議院的首席副議長德拉霍斯的時候也說在政府推動台捷韌性計畫之下台灣第一個IC設計海外訓練基地要在布拉格落腳那當時講的"},{"start":5366.553,"end":5372.665,"text":"時間是9月要落成因為今天已經是9月最後一天了這個今天會落成嗎?"},{"start":5373.84,"end":5401.435,"text":"今天不會我跟委員報告因為捷克也是一個自由民主國家跟台灣一樣所以他們的執政聯盟其實多個政黨所組成的所以他們在內部針對我們跟我們合作的這個對象大學還有政府的單位其實還有一些不同多元的意見他們還在整合所以他們現在是他們不願意就對了"},{"start":5401.715,"end":5426.481,"text":"不是不願意,他們還在整合意見他們有怎麼樣的意見要需要整合?就是執行的單位跟政府的應該講權責單位之間他們還在溝通那最近又碰到捷克的選舉所以中間有一點這個那你覺得你有信心說這個東西會落成嗎?現在你等於是說你就是行政流程的問題嗎?"},{"start":5427.701,"end":5451.938,"text":"還有他們的政黨之間溝通政府溝通的問題所以確定會做這件事情只是9月沒完成只是可能會延緩那我們持續跟他們在討論那大概什麼時候他們現在因為選舉剛剛結束政府可能也會重組所以可能還是會再有一段時間我們並沒有說放棄啦並沒有放棄所以還是持續溝通大概什麼時候嘛因為本來講9月嘛"},{"start":5454.42,"end":5455.96,"text":"主委請回,謝謝葉元芝委員,再來我們請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":5484.889,"end":5490.693,"text":"主席、同仁、大家好。我們先請吳主委。請吳主委。林委員好。主委好。你來了大概快半年了,所以對於國科會,我想先前你已經有一些了解,只是在不同的角色,我想你應該有不同的體悟跟對於業務有更深一層的看法。您到的時候,我們正好也有這個機會交流,"},{"start":5515.67,"end":5531.38,"text":"您當時也表現出很強的善意我覺得您在學術的這個部分應該我們也是可以來交談的所以是不是可以請教一下主委本席在我們交談過程當中我們有交換一些意見"},{"start":5532.14,"end":5549.068,"text":"您對於我意見的﹖您有一個允諾﹖那我想說那個非常的好爽﹖這是以前在學界碰到的狀況﹖結果您一下子就允諾了﹖那我只想請教一下﹖那這個部分﹖就當時您允諾的這個﹖目前的進度是如何﹖"},{"start":5550.28,"end":5570.891,"text":"林委員交代的事情其實我們應該都有執行對不起要不要提醒一下您應該我們談的大概一兩個重點那其中一個因為我本身是原住民所以我都會特別關心原住民的這個部分那當時我跟您反映過說這個"},{"start":5573.872,"end":5577.176,"text":"您也很豪爽地答應說其實給大家一些空間所以目前的進度大概是如何?"},{"start":5589.992,"end":5606.181,"text":"我們已經編入我們那個計畫裏面就是那個執行方案裏面所以這個議題我們馬上就會實施了那我想請教一下就是因為今年113年那你們應該去年已經有發函了嘛"},{"start":5606.981,"end":5634.626,"text":"通常都是大家知道你們發函才知道那個可以申請的方向那你們這個是明年編錄然後後年才會執行還是說你們其實在計畫的內容項目上應該今年的扣案就年底前我想應該是可以啦如果說經費上沒有問題的話所以我想請教一下那過往你們在這個整合的平台上是怎麼樣來確定方向跟方式呢"},{"start":5635.618,"end":5654.831,"text":"是有關原住民議題﹖對﹖對﹖對是﹖那我請我們人文處﹖可以請教一下﹖謝謝委員﹖報告委員那我們的徵求的方向都是召開諮詢委員會那我們今年的議題是族群關係也就是說原住民跟其他的族群之間的關聯是我們今年的公案重點那也順便回答一下剛剛委員關心的個別型那以前都沒有"},{"start":5655.291,"end":5673.747,"text":"在委員的建議底下我們今年真的把它編入但是我們是希望說用個別型然後希望可以未來是成為整合型也就是說我們接受個別委員的提案但是我們希望他可以提案說未來幾年他可以成為一個整合型的團隊我們也是用這樣的方式在促進學界之間的一個提升能量謝謝"},{"start":5676.029,"end":5691.475,"text":"謝謝說明因為剛才你們談到今年這個議題所以對議題這個部分我有很深的感觸想要跟這個主委這邊來討論也就是您講的族群關係其實跟國科會我後面講的議題都有一些接近只是正好你們又講到今年的主題是族群關係"},{"start":5694.036,"end":5721.676,"text":"主委因為國科會其實它有一大塊那尤其是今天我們談的這個永續跟這個政策那我是不是可以建議就在原住民的這個研究方面是不是可以給我們多一點機會不要把我們常常鎖在博物館的這個想像裡面所以談到原住民我們就只有族群但是其實像你們的很多的議題其實原住民在這裡面都有一些佔比跟其實可以學習跟研究的東西那我們待會再慢慢來討論好不好"},{"start":5723.398,"end":5741.275,"text":"這個其實在原住民族研究的這個部分我剛才講的是議題所以這個議題的部分我希望能夠跟會內來更細緻更往前討論一下不要把我們都鎖在某一些認同或者是族群那其實因為有一個大方向大家會往這邊走"},{"start":5742.456,"end":5764.065,"text":"所以在今天談的永續其實好多項都跟原住民有關所以接下來我簡單談一下第一個是剛才我說那個比例上我待會還會再談那目前會內當然有一些這個經費的比例但是整體來講就行政院我看整體比例其實是少於一的那不知道主委知不知道原住民在全台的這個比例大概有多少"},{"start":5765.646,"end":5792.412,"text":"全台原住民的總數大概...抱歉數字我不清楚那要不然會內再去查一下如果有您講的4到5%那可能比例又更低了那個報告委員我們科技預算其實也有編在我們的原住民委員會裡面也有所以我是說整體來講我這邊搜羅了一次那發現整體好像還是比"},{"start":5794.892,"end":5818.565,"text":"剛剛施助長也有提到說我們特別為了原住民的研究也編了這個預算就是專案的部分你們大概編了5800萬如果我這邊沒有看錯的話你們回去再整理我們再來確認一下好不好至於議題的部分我想我們請人文處也到時候也跟林委員也討論一下是不是議題恰當對啦議題方向可以再多給我們一些開放性好不好"},{"start":5819.145,"end":5819.165,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5834.76,"end":5857.523,"text":"所以我為什麼會對那個議題想要跟大家再交流一下也就是族群關係大家很容易想像社會人文但是好像我們在其他的處裡面都感覺會缺席所以我只是提醒這一點所以在研究的這個你們的機制上因為機制要討論大概很多細節所以你們有一個原住民族社會永續科學計畫那我提醒幾點"},{"start":5858.464,"end":5883.071,"text":"第1個就是說平台的建立要以我們的需求原住民的需求還有原住民的未來性所以大家現在對我們的想像都是在過去好像我們從來都不會從土人不好意思我是開玩笑我們常常都是這樣子的刻板印象那在科技研究上我很期待這一點是不是可以讓我們在現在的社會跟未來的發展都有可能另外一個資源配比還有原住民族的受益狀況這個可能在你們的學者"},{"start":5886.312,"end":5914.48,"text":"原住民的比例跟非原住民的比例還有原住民的那個議題其實整體都是連結在一體的然後第三個就參與程度的自主性這個其實從過去我們很多研究都可以看得出來可能學者研究然後原住民這個我在民間一直聽到有這樣子的聲音也就是大家都是被動的然後在這裡面可能有很多被動的被研究但是研究的這個主體性可能還要再更強化一點"},{"start":5915.69,"end":5938.369,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我們相當認同對對對但是我可能這個部分未來會再更強力的監督跟溝通交流好不好好 謝謝那另外你們在談永續科研的這個部分藍炭跟原住民傳統領域我這邊很快的提供幾點那請你們在這個部分也可以置放進去然後稍微更多做一點著力第一個就是共管模式的可能性還有傳統知識在你們藍炭的這個過程當中因為藍炭很深的一個議題"},{"start":5940.891,"end":5960.822,"text":"我就是提醒這個部分我們不想缺席還有我們的文化跟生態的這個融合好那接下來就談你們國科會在這個原住民的這個補助大概5800萬那我剛才講少於1應該整個行政院大概比例上是少於1%的所以我們如果以所謂的科技的量化指標那我們當然在這裡面先這樣子做一個比較"},{"start":5961.642,"end":5985.528,"text":"所以在原住民的經費配比如果我們在這幾年的執行上我們有這樣子的量能是不是也有機會來做一個提高是 如果我們相關的學者進來研究這些相關議題我們的通過率國科會有一個平均大約在60%左右如果研究的人數增加我們經費一定會提高的"},{"start":5986.728,"end":6014.674,"text":"謝謝主委然後第二點其實我覺得這是一個普遍的問題雖然我針對原住民族學術人才的培育與支持來問但是接下來其實有一個跟主委也很有關然後跟剛才也有一些委員的這個質詢也有關就是整個人才研究人才的培育跟未來的出路那這不僅是原住民我在這邊也特別注意原住民這個區塊那我們往下一頁看我們就會看到那個也是在今年暑假的一個調查那個報紙的調查"},{"start":6015.974,"end":6040.954,"text":"其實在先前有人訪問您的時候我先回到前一章我想請教一下我非常受到主委這句話的感動我們希望有本土培育出來的諾貝爾獎我是真的很有感受因為以前在我的領域我是很想拿世界大獎的可是到我畢業的時候我連世界大賽的資訊都沒有所以主委這個部分你怎麼去成就我們如何培育出本土的諾貝爾獎得主"},{"start":6042.779,"end":6064.15,"text":"我們就是期望不要以行政的力量干預我們的學術讓它沒有天花板所以只要是能夠對於增進人類福祉社會貢獻的話這種研究我們一定都會努力來支持希望說我們的學界的研究不要只以論文發表為導向"},{"start":6065.871,"end":6067.113,"text":"而是強調社會人類的貢獻這樣才有辦法產生比較大的影響力讓台灣在全世界被看到"},{"start":6077.559,"end":6099.627,"text":"對,那您講的這個論文的這個部分或許有所謂數量跟它真正貢獻這個區塊的一個討論那我們都知道質非常的難討論但是量或許是大家現在看得到的那或許主委就必須要在這裡面再做一些一個適度的平衡"},{"start":6100.547,"end":6123.374,"text":"不是只有評審人 我想您可能要做很大的努力才能夠調整大家目前對這樣一個量的迷思所以這其實有些東西是結合在一起第一個是這則報告再講到我們這個科研人才的這個成效當然它的重點是在未來研究人才何去何從我覺得這是會裡面可不可以幫這些研究人才想一想"},{"start":6123.914,"end":6124.034,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6142.743,"end":6160.818,"text":"我們在計畫的補助上跟計畫的未來性或許可以一起來考量這個是這則報道我給一點建議我們不是說報道他可能有他的想法但是我看到是一個系統性的問題所以是不是國科會在這裡面可以有更多一點的角色"},{"start":6162.279,"end":6189.125,"text":"最後一個提醒就是說當然剛才主委您講到其實所謂論文那論文我們講到量跟值但是量就是大家現在的迷思那這個量呢我們經常都是我們有很多的量但是我們被引用的數量其實是少的也就這個可能在貢獻度上就會有一些影響那有一個報導台灣在這個量的部分大概是居全球20幾名可是我們在被引用的數量是全球倒數的"},{"start":6189.945,"end":6217.497,"text":"但是荷蘭在量的部分也是20幾名可是在被引用的數據上也是20幾名這相對是平衡的所以我很期待未來能夠聽到主委談論一下我們如何打破這個量的迷思可是值又怎麼樣被評價我想這個是我一個提醒未來我也會針對我這幾個方向再跟主委還有會裡面來更進一步的探討"},{"start":6218.773,"end":6231.217,"text":"謝謝委員這是我們努力的方向謝謝主委加油主委請回謝謝林倩琦委員再來我們請吳珮委員來代主席然後OK謝謝"},{"start":6247.168,"end":6248.308,"text":"接下來請范雲委員進行質詢范委員好"},{"start":6270.243,"end":6295.676,"text":"主委早安剛剛葉元之委員說我要罵你沒有要罵你我要釐清一些事情今天我們的主題其實是永續科研及政策溝通我是想了很久永續科研是有雙重意義當然您知道最近的學門爭議可是永續科研還有另外一個意義是科研其實是應該要永續的"},{"start":6296.696,"end":6316.801,"text":"那可不可以請問主委,如果要請您一句話講國科會的執掌你會怎麼講?國科會的執掌是什麼?國科會的任務是要協助我們國家來培養科研的人才為了要培養人才我們要投入研發所以我們會編科技預算那這個研發的成果要對..."},{"start":6318.421,"end":6347.484,"text":"你講了很多句話了那我們回來看你們的就是國科會的組織法第一條就有講職長行政院為辦理國家科學發展與技術研究及應用之規劃協調審議資源分配等業務特赦國家科學及技術委員會那你有沒有覺得他很有意思他把科學發展放在技術研究及應用前面他為什麼不先放技術及研究及應用再放科學發展呢"},{"start":6348.24,"end":6371.677,"text":"沒有科學發展去探討前瞻的知識就不可能產生知識所以科學發展是長期的基礎有時候不一定有市場性表面上不一定看得出來對人類跟社會的貢獻可是也許他之後就會有貢獻了所以如果沒有長期的基礎研究跟重要的研究調查的話那其實你"},{"start":6374.739,"end":6375.26,"text":"您同意嗎?"},{"start":6389.696,"end":6393.297,"text":"國會三大選的調整風波大家擔心的是更長期的問題不是只是表面上這個風波風波剛剛大家都講過了就是短短的兩三天內"},{"start":6406.363,"end":6421.56,"text":"主委應該知道要叫學者連署非常困難吧尤其是衝上這個國科會國科會是他的研究資源的來源沒有人想得罪國科會主委過去有連署過就是挑戰國科會的各種聲明嗎?"},{"start":6425.222,"end":6446.65,"text":"主委以前是申請哪個處的研究經費?像我是人文處我是工程處好您工程處有好多顆您是申請哪一顆?微電子那如果今天有人說你們那一顆就是不大了解到底在做什麼應該把它放到自然處跟人文處猜一猜你會不會覺得蠻生氣的?"},{"start":6448.31,"end":6462.884,"text":"應該要先經過討論沒錯對一定要經過討論嘛而且這個討論不是只找學門召集人來討論嘛對不對那這個對您的影響是什麼把你的研究領域從工程術調到自然處甚至到人文處對您的影響會是什麼"},{"start":6466.637,"end":6493.872,"text":"你的社群就可能就是審查的人員審查的人就不一樣嘛各位審查的人不一樣對我們學者來講是多大的事完全無法預測譬如說您今天在做的您是做電機的嘛相關那個研究審查人員完全換了甚至你投入10年的研究就拿不到經費了這不是學者甚至跟他的薪水無關喔他的研究經費就受到很大的影響所以知識體大嘛"},{"start":6494.973,"end":6520.783,"text":"我了解他們擔心的事所以看來主委今天到目前為止都跟我同步那我想我綜合這麼多的陳情人的資訊那當然就是新聞據說大家都有看到了那這裡面我也主動請教了學界我比較尊重的就是說不同的朋友那包含涉及這三個跨領域的跟不涉及的就是我覺得有四大問題第一個就是三個跨領域學們面臨肢解與重組"},{"start":6523.544,"end":6544.181,"text":"有部分真的是叫肢解請他們猜到自然科甚至有一些空間資訊或什麼的我想細節我們就不講第二個資源投入被緊縮就是您剛剛講的預算增加很多人已經挑戰你們是把部會的一些錢放進去那其實不是歸純學術研究了第三個"},{"start":6545.181,"end":6550.125,"text":"眾多中鋼計劃面臨刪減中鋼計劃主委應該很了解中層鋼要計劃他是競爭型的而且要準備個兩三年才能提出那學者們舉證歷歷你們已經在進行第一個把這個航向南海原本是這是海洋研究111年到114年經費現在1115年可能無法延續"},{"start":6574.623,"end":6593.217,"text":"國土空間綱要也被影響那這些所謂中層綱要加起來的經費是4.577億它涉及到下面多少研究助理多少人一旦沒有給他經費這些人就是回家吃自己或者他必須要找新的主題了甚至研究生"},{"start":6594.017,"end":6615.16,"text":"還有LTSER長期社會生態研究這個也是基礎研究這個表面上一下看不到市場性可是對我們的不管是永續跟各方面都有幫助那原本我們聽到的就是有彰化站跟翡翠站這好不容易建立的社會生態研究的點"},{"start":6616.181,"end":6636.096,"text":"那你們主張經費刪減然後本來學者討論了半年要增加發展的東海岸站據說你們已經主張不用討論了因為就認為甚至就是處長說出不知道認為學者為什麼要做這樣的研究"},{"start":6637.15,"end":6650.82,"text":"有沒有這樣事情你們待會再說所以這麼中綱計畫面臨刪減那甚至不只是這三個領域的還有2030年跨世代年輕學者方案這個一年其實用的錢不多1.5億我看去112年度1722個年輕學者申請只有888人拿到"},{"start":6658.626,"end":6673.979,"text":"這個非常重要因為年輕學者可能是因為系主任跟他說有這個經費他不去申請國外拿到博士就回來了結果據說你們覺得年輕學者為什麼要給他特別鼓勵呢他很優秀就很優秀跟年齡無關"},{"start":6675.3,"end":6694.392,"text":"您也知道我們台灣的薪資比起我們東亞很多的國家然後研究經費也不確定那所以這個長城的東西甚至一個已經在台灣的年輕學者他放棄國外的話那因為你們不再補助這個部分知識體大那所以呢這看起來就是說"},{"start":6696.533,"end":6720.95,"text":"第4個大家最質疑的事情不是不能做計劃經費刪減增加應該要有嚴謹的評估有清楚的報告讓大家知道為什麼這中間有一個討論過程所以決策過程被認為既粗暴又不透明是目前的癥結點那我想剛剛都已經講到了這個連署三天之內有650人"},{"start":6722.311,"end":6748.549,"text":"裡面有四位院士兩位校長我也在看到這個事情9月16日我認為我應該要正式跟你們索資因為我是立法院裡面少數申請過你們國會經費看得懂你們在做什麼的我去索資了你們索資的第一個回我說本會議於9月16日新聞稿中澄清並無更動組織或學門之規劃"},{"start":6751.431,"end":6778.323,"text":"可是呢我後來又再次所知你們第二份就變了就說沒有正式會議請問到底有沒有會議是有會議但不正式還是你第一份所講的沒有沒有會議完全沒有會議完全沒有所以我們第一時間好那等一下你說完全沒有會議對不對對正式非正式會議都沒有沒有"},{"start":6780.086,"end":6784.996,"text":"請問主委是否知情有人想要著手規劃這件事情,您是否知情?"},{"start":6786.501,"end":6815.521,"text":"自然處處長是有跟我討論是私底下討論說怎麼樣能夠所以您知情我們討論是說怎麼樣能夠增進我們現在這三個學門他們研究的成效所以就是您知情嘛他的意思就是說要調整嘛您知情他要調整沒有要調整他沒說要調整第一件事就是要進行我不是法官齁所以您知情他認為這三個學門的效率不夠是不是"},{"start":6816.461,"end":6835.861,"text":"不是效率不夠是說我們怎麼樣協助我們這些研究的學者們能夠增進他們的研究成效那為什麼其他的社會學們不需要增進研究成效就是他們需要增進研究成效所有學們都要啊所以所有的都要但是自然處他的業務這是他們的業務所以您有沒有授權自然處處長進行"},{"start":6837.603,"end":6843.945,"text":"我有提醒我們要進行溝通你有提醒要進行溝通所以現在是自然處長沒有接受您的提醒不是沒有接受因為還沒有進行溝通那個連署就出現了所以我們只好還沒有進行溝通所以這樣子聽起來是自然處長"},{"start":6858.393,"end":6871.728,"text":"報告委員,我們處長也是很用心,他是要協助他其實並沒有任何的決策,還沒有對外宣布的時候那就出現這個事,我當然也是覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":6872.188,"end":6872.308,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6887.145,"end":6904.277,"text":"您知不知悉我們自然處長曾經講了這樣的話有不少白紙黑字講有不少PI皆是在其原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下之上述三學門您知悉還是不知悉這個應該不是這樣講吧有簡單白紙黑字事後我可以給你看您知悉還是不知悉"},{"start":6918.086,"end":6933.266,"text":"這只有一種嗎?知悉還是不知悉?我覺得不是這樣講啦。好啦,那您就是覺得他這樣講不對,但是您知悉,是這樣嗎?他不是這樣講,他不是這樣講。那他是怎麼樣講?"},{"start":6935.902,"end":6961.762,"text":"自然處長跟我提的只是怎麼樣去增進那您知不知其他白紙黑字就是寫了這樣的東西這是一個反彈的根源啊你今天如果說我是做性別研究跨領域性別研究的學者都是在原本專業學門拿不到計畫而轉至本處下肢性別研究的性別研究學一定是跳腳你把別人講成二流學者欸這些人是因為在別的地方申請不到經費過來嗎"},{"start":6964.366,"end":6992.226,"text":"主委,您剛剛一直都不願意說你有知悉那請您去查一下如果講這樣的話至少我不知道是誰講的如果是自然署長講他是不是應該跟大家道歉如果是大家有認為有這種情形那我就代表國科會跟大家道歉國科會不會有這樣的立場那如果有一些口誤我跟大家道歉"},{"start":6993.026,"end":7011.738,"text":"謝謝主委,我想您今天這樣算蠻有誠意的如果真的有講過這樣的話主委願意跟大家道歉就是不應該任意貶抑任何的學門是在別的領域拿不到經費然後轉到這邊來申請那我想今天就是要跟主委講的事情"},{"start":7012.759,"end":7039.66,"text":"就是有這麼多的東西所以我今天的副標題是政策溝通主標是永續科研我想我剛剛講到的其實你們是不是一個月內可以有一個決策過程的檢討報告包含所有的中長期計畫如果您不是不能夠調整不是不能刪減不是不能增加應該要有一個清楚的標準跟說明好不好"},{"start":7040,"end":7040.64,"text":"所以決策過程給我檢討報告第二個一個月內喔"},{"start":7066.534,"end":7094.381,"text":"提出未來相關學門調整應有的SOP那當然我們知道有些事情無法百分之百的民主但是今天一個大學要裁測一個系所緣何病教育部都有規定SOP要幾場溝通會幾場座談會就是應該要有一個而且學術社群那種程度是一個更平等他是互審的制度對不對學門召集人也都是有聲望的"},{"start":7094.861,"end":7116.638,"text":"就說推選出來的所以是不是能夠針對學門調整應有的尊重學界溝通的SOP的程序是不是可以給我讓大家相信不會再有這樣事那第三個你們也應該要保障政策跟預算的連貫性我想大家的研究都是據說"},{"start":7118.519,"end":7132.77,"text":"三年應該是兩三年是最短嘛對不對四五年到十年的有很多都是這樣長程的規劃那如果你的政策與預算沒有連貫性我想跟學界的互信基礎就已經失去了"},{"start":7136.331,"end":7151.619,"text":"第2個未來相關學門的調整的民主程序是什麼?建議你們用問卷詢問那650位聯署的學者因為學者都是有email的你們都可以找得到讓他感受到國科會的誠意好不好?"},{"start":7152.659,"end":7168.952,"text":"他們有反彈一定有一套理想的方式絕對不是說學科學門絕對不能調整好不好那怎麼樣是好的做法那您展現誠意那跟著650位連署至少用一個數位問卷很容易執行主委可以答應嗎"},{"start":7171.033,"end":7173.494,"text":"謝謝吳主委,請主委回座接下來請召委范雲接續主持會議"},{"start":7204.993,"end":7208.995,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員帶主席 那現在我們請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩有請吳主委好 有請主委"},{"start":7227.795,"end":7256.109,"text":"羅委員好好 主委謝謝今天大家對這個議題其實都滿關注的吼那也引起不少的風波我想主委國科會主要的任務不外乎第一推動全國整體的科技發展第二 資源學術研究第三 發展科學園區剛好這些任務教育部跟經濟部都有在做我想請問一下國科會你們與教育部經濟部這兩個部會在研究教學產業發展的一個需求這三個面向是怎麼分工"},{"start":7256.849,"end":7283.638,"text":"有分工可以分享一下嗎教育部支持我們全國各學校從大學到小學都有關聯那教學的部分是教育部主政但是研究特別是在大學做前瞻的基礎研究應用研究那是國科會在支持這是教學跟研究那跟經濟部的分工經濟部是注重在產業發展"},{"start":7284.958,"end":7299.955,"text":"所以我們在管理科學園區的時候科學園區成功的一個很重要關鍵就是科學園區跟大學之間的研究是非常緊密結合因為要發展是科技產業科技產業如果沒有前端的科研是不可能有產業的發展"},{"start":7301.136,"end":7325.447,"text":"所以我們跟經濟部就互相協助在發展科學園區的過程當中也把大學的研發能量也結合園區的事業讓園區的科技產業的發展更為蓬勃大概就是這樣的這個分工好 那我想問一下請問國科會學術研究的一個產出以結案為來計算一年大概有幾案案件數那個我們眾會數"},{"start":7331.42,"end":7344.433,"text":"請我們中衛處來回答跟委員報告如果是在年度執行中的計畫大概15000件好那這些產出確實帶動產業發展的大概有幾案有沒有計算過"},{"start":7346.209,"end":7370.002,"text":"這一部分我們不會去計算我們大概有一些叫做產學合作的案子但是也不見得是只有產學合作的案子才會對產業有幫助我們有一些科技研發的成果其實是廠商直接會找學校找教授去做這個技術移轉所以也有一些技術移轉的這個方式那也有一些教授在教學之餘也會去協助產業擔任顧問"},{"start":7371.803,"end":7379.065,"text":"你覺得學術的產出跟所謂的產業的發展有沒有落差?落差難免是有因為我們支持學術研究不見得全部都是應用型直接連結到產業有些是有社會貢獻有些是純粹科學的研究它是未來可能比較長期才會被社會所使用"},{"start":7401.593,"end":7415.873,"text":"所以發展成科技發展成技術所以我們很難去界定說一個學術研究的成果是不是對社會有利己的貢獻對產業有利己貢獻有時候是比較難衡量有些像AI的研究"},{"start":7416.954,"end":7438.807,"text":"過去很長的一段時間是社會覺得沒有直接的感受到AI研究的貢獻而是在十幾年前才發現說因為雲端科技因為台灣的半導體發展能夠訓練非常大的這種人工智慧的模型才發現說它的貢獻會非常的大所以有時候是經過長時間的研究累積的成果才會有貢獻的"},{"start":7439.727,"end":7464.727,"text":"那我想剛剛有聽到這個主委有一些表態那我想態度都良善但是我還是有一些問題想跟大家請問一起來探討那我想目前國科會日前國科會所你調整的永續三學門照學界說不重視永續發展而且也發出了相關的聲明第一學術自由與公開討論是永續發展科技核心的一個價值我想這個部分的聲明您大概都有看過"},{"start":7465.347,"end":7494.05,"text":"他們也堅決的反對任何由上而下未經公開溝通的獨斷做法第二國科會應正視新政府對永續發展的近鄰挑戰政策任何對永續相關計畫的刪減與調整應公開透明的機制廣泛的跨領域做學界的一個溝通我想並建立一個共識我想這個部分剛剛您有所回應那我們還是希望學界目前所"},{"start":7495.31,"end":7516.299,"text":"發聲的這些聲明第一時間我們有看到幾個回應我想跟你探討一下第一個9月14回應國科會回應是支持跨域性質的學門研究永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域的學門投入資源有逐年增長剛剛你有說4.8億變成5.2億對吧"},{"start":7519.841,"end":7521.586,"text":"將與學界共同探討永續防災及空間資訊的相關發展"},{"start":7527.677,"end":7540.26,"text":"那這樣徵詢學界的意見適度的調整當時是被批壓實問虛答後來9月16國科會又再一次的回應並無更動組織跟學門的規劃請該三學門的一個學者放心將儘速召開說明會跟學界還有我們國科會支持"},{"start":7551.587,"end":7552.889,"text":"請問主委你覺得國科會做法錯了嗎?"},{"start":7566.824,"end":7579.923,"text":"可能是引起誤解啦 我覺得我們學界關心永續學門的發展 這個我完全是認同的 我們應該要持續來凝聚學界的力量 持續發展"},{"start":7582.014,"end":7588.077,"text":"解決方案針對這些永續的議題我們在會內其實針對這樣的聯署我們也立即反映我們不會改變現在這個學問的狀況自然處將來也會持續來協助"},{"start":7598.542,"end":7614.058,"text":"這三個學問的發展所以不會我們既然經費已經逐年的增加當然是絕對不會放棄這三個學問現在已經累積起來的研究的能量是希望協助他們更為健康的發展那對社會的貢獻會更為明顯"},{"start":7615.96,"end":7635.796,"text":"我認為國投會在溝通不足的情況下嘗試拆解永續防災還有空間資訊等學問在被嚴正抗議後試圖以增加經費來安撫主委整篇書面報告提到了12個跨領域12個跨領域後沒有列舉大概哪幾個領域"},{"start":7636.837,"end":7660.3,"text":"至少應該針對各學門跨領域整合列舉預計大概有哪幾個領域才對吧這就好像你去的餐廳然後呢沒有menu沒有得選擇然後任由老闆給你吃什麼就吃什麼我想跨領域的研究重要性不言而喻國科會是否有計劃建立一套溝通的機制例如召開定期的召開會議以確保跟學界溝通交流"},{"start":7661.962,"end":7689.599,"text":"剛剛我們召委范委員已經提醒我們也非常關心我們會有一個比較正式的做法標準的做法不是只有針對這三個學問將來我們所有的處未來針對各個學問都開始會有這樣子的一個固定會議我們一定要公開就是討論公開公平透明的這些機制我們一定會把它建立起來希望我們整個學界都放心這樣"},{"start":7690.399,"end":7718.317,"text":"我想國科會有沒有清楚的路徑圖知道需要投入的前沿研究是什麼近鄰的永續是不分藍綠的共同目標那麼國科會在這個部分扮演的角色是什麼方向是什麼那個路徑圖有沒有出來大家只能瞎子摸象嗎能不能具體的回應國科會在這些領域中扮演的角色好我請我們林副主委他負責我們的近鄰辦公室"},{"start":7720.361,"end":7730.128,"text":"委員好,基本上來講我們現在有一個近年科技方案的推動小組專門在規劃在行政院的層級各部會還有產業應該怎麼去推動近年科技另一方面我們現在因為總統有召開8月8日有召開氣候變遷的相關的會議所以我們現在在推動一個氣候變遷調試科研我們也有一個推動小組現在在進行當中那應該是明年會成案所以我們會同時從近年科技還有這個調試"},{"start":7750.021,"end":7776.292,"text":"氣候變性調適科研這兩個方向來推動這是國科會應該做的事情以上報告我想這些技術會如何與產業界需求相銜接確保研究能夠迅速轉為實際應用這是我們非常關切的部分針對這個特定的產業如再生能源經濟循環的相關領域我們設立專門的研究支持機制如果有具體有沒有有沒有這樣子的一個具體實際作為"},{"start":7778.08,"end":7778.14,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":7804.683,"end":7822.297,"text":"學界的研究因為教育部的規定必須盡量去發表論文刊登相關的期刊但產業界的研發則是希望短期性的希望能夠力建效果就是上市場賺錢我想滋養企業才能廣大人才此時政府要做什麼"},{"start":7822.637,"end":7840.699,"text":"國科會如何在兩者之間找到平衡注進學界產業界的合作這就回到我一開始在問主委你們怎麼去分工嗎那如果在這個部分上如果做成兩邊的橋樑我想國科會是很需要在這個部分下以重力主委您覺得呢"},{"start":7840.979,"end":7862.343,"text":"我同意委員的看法我想我們跟大家分享有一個鐵證證的案例講一個很成功的案例跟大家分享中研院在新冠肺炎的流行之時成功開發出新冠快篩的抗體但限於設備無法進行量產化中研院釋出了抗體跟產業界合作讓這個產品與業界能夠進行永續不管是開發、量產"},{"start":7868.064,"end":7881.99,"text":"用於支持國家重大的防疫工作我想眾議院在這樣研究發表的學術論文之外一達成善盡社會關鍵的責任任務同時根據科技的基本法規範架構將抗體移轉所獲得的經費"},{"start":7885.211,"end":7900.846,"text":"按比例分配給發明人研究團隊並投入更多的科學研究此為產學研三贏的一個案例但另外一個成功案例我們也是看到都是在新冠疫情由衛生福利部中醫研究"},{"start":7901.707,"end":7903.568,"text":"所研發出的青關一號,主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7903.568,"end":7904.148,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7904.148,"end":7904.769,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7904.769,"end":7906.049,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7906.049,"end":7907.01,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7907.01,"end":7907.69,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7907.69,"end":7908.19,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7908.19,"end":7908.93,"text":"主委您這個都知道嗎?"},{"start":7920.939,"end":7944.144,"text":"我們非常鼓勵也就是說我們的科技研發包含科學的研究以及技術的發展這兩個我們是並重的科學的研究將來可能會產生長期對人類社會的貢獻那技術的發展是對我們產業立即的這個需求提供我們很重要的後盾讓我們的產業發展得很好這個我們都會鼓勵"},{"start":7944.744,"end":7964.689,"text":"好 所以我今天我們舉出案例然後探討我們真的很希望諸委這個態度一定要做好對學界的溝通對產業界的溝通一定要重視我想後續做出一些補償亡羊補牢的動作你也剛剛有答應我們希望能夠看到具體的實際的而且永續的跟產學界一起好好的來坐下來談一談是同意謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7968.635,"end":7976.44,"text":"吳主委請回謝謝羅廷威委員質詢我們再請葛如君委員質詢等一下吳佩儀委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委"},{"start":7992.574,"end":8010.956,"text":"各位人好主委好今天感謝趙偉安排專報的題目永續科研那AI其實是目前熱門的產業持續熱門那也是科學研究現在非常多的教授研究中心在做的題目那先前幾次的質詢我也就AI的發展還有各個面向跟您有進行探討"},{"start":8012.037,"end":8040.943,"text":"我想人類的發展AI一定會在其中扮演角色我們如果沒有辦法做好會影響到我們的存續他如果做得好也會幫助我們的存續所以這當然是一個永續的議題那配合這樣的一個議題呢有兩大重點人才的永續跟人員的永續就會是非常重要的課題首先來看一下看主委談一下人才的永續行政院在9月5號剛剛公佈了這個五大信賴產業為什麼剛好也信賴這個我們改天再聊"},{"start":8041.343,"end":8069.51,"text":"但是人工智慧就是其中一項目標要成為全球AI影響力的中心從行政院的簡報我們也可以看到推動目標的第二項就是要培養AI的人才預計4年內要培養20萬名AI相關的人才請教一下主委培養20萬名AI人才的具體做法是什麼明年就會是第一年那要20萬的多少要培育"},{"start":8071.328,"end":8071.848,"text":"所以人數你們不用算啦?"},{"start":8090.682,"end":8108.069,"text":"我們人數的部分其實是包含科研的部分以及將來在產業產業有所謂的這個AI產業以及這個AI的應用的產業那應用端的所以20萬明年要多少萬有沒有數字有沒有規劃有沒有策略"},{"start":8109.009,"end":8129.529,"text":"這是明年才啟動的這個方案從明年開始算4年現在已經馬上要10月囉那現在不用規劃明年要多少萬人嗎我們不用OKR不用KPI嗎那我們就隨便喊一個20萬那我們要喊200萬20萬是包含到所以AI人才的培育和國歌會到底有沒有關係"},{"start":8131,"end":8151.52,"text":"當然有關係啊就是我講科研人才是國科會主政的所以我們會持續資助全國的大學以及研究機構進行AI相關的科技研發那我們翻開國科會預算書的第一頁國科會的年度施政目標當中包含辦理行政院科技顧問會議行政院"},{"start":8152.521,"end":8168.105,"text":"主辦這個會議由國客會來主導會議的目的本來就是未來10到20年的科技發展要提供建言那想請問一下主委您接任政委以後有沒有去翻閱一下當時的這個行政院科技顧問會議的會議記錄報告委員我還沒有機會去翻閱過去的記錄"},{"start":8174.252,"end":8195.362,"text":"現在已經您上任已經一段時間了我沒關係我幫你看其實相關的會議結論就有提到培育下個世代半導體及AI人才就是你們的結論策略方向第一結果20萬到底要培育多少名目前是沒有概念現在已經馬上要進入10月了"},{"start":8195.982,"end":8208.272,"text":"下世代半導體及AI人才如果是國會主政的部分就是科研人才那科研人才如果我們以碩士以上的那20萬裡面到底要佔多少"},{"start":8209.535,"end":8232.061,"text":"科研的人力不需要到非常的多那非科研的人力呢?非科研的人力誰負責?我們行政院各部會各部會都要負責包含經濟部、數位發展部甚至衛福部、勞動部、農業部等等我們各行各業都需要有AI應用的人力"},{"start":8232.441,"end":8232.901,"text":"教育部應該在裡面的"},{"start":8256.856,"end":8272.788,"text":"這個我想要跟主委同步一下培育人才的責任是人人有責沒錯啦您剛剛提的也對那國歌會做科研的人才但是科研的人才到底要如何培育更多的AI人才這個應該是要代代相傳一棒接一棒棒棒都是強棒嘛"},{"start":8274.229,"end":8290.7,"text":"我告訴主委您剛剛提到的很多的會議教育部都不是與會單位所以如果您有關心AI人才的議題包含台灣競爭力的永續國科會如果認為AI人才的培育教育部也有責任那國科會是不是有轉資會議的結論給教育部的責任呢"},{"start":8292.941,"end":8313.395,"text":"在後續的工作會議裡面是不是有邀請教育部來參與這些請主委會後能不能與相關業務單位來進行檢討到底我們4年20萬的AI人才要如何而來到底明年到底會有多少名不然的話我們這個數字就亂喊嘛我喊20萬也可以我喊2萬也可以我喊200萬也可以啊是吧"},{"start":8314.015,"end":8328.921,"text":"我們這個人才培育逐年目標我們會把它規劃出來那我們的確跟教育部有持續定期的溝通我們的陳秉林副主委跟教育部的葉秉成次長其實是有固定溝通的平台"},{"start":8329.121,"end":8330.782,"text":"臺灣人才赤字在國內是非常令人擔憂美國在來協會剛發布人才循環大聯盟的白皮書其中依舊寫著"},{"start":8349.79,"end":8365.72,"text":"人才是台灣轉型創新經濟體的基礎培育人才是我們發展的基石國家競爭力的根本他寫得很委婉但是我要再次提醒2015年我們就已經被評定2021年的人才供需落差可能會到負1.5%"},{"start":8368.042,"end":8389.437,"text":"29月27日及28日我們才剛辦理了台灣的AI的一個非常重要的年會其中才不斷的被討論我們AI人才的缺口年增7%注意這是缺口的成長率喔不是人才的成長率喔這些數字您如果看到了AI人才培育難道不會是國會重要的責任嗎我們再來給你看一下這個7%我們剛剛提過根據審計部最新的決算報告"},{"start":8398.883,"end":8419.253,"text":"從110年到112年每年編列近20億元去執行機構研覽優秀的人才及研究學者其中178位博士級的研究人員連續接受補助10次到20次但是隨著計畫的結束我們發現這些人並沒有投入產業或投入學界"},{"start":8419.693,"end":8445.358,"text":"比例非常的低甚至沒有在研究機構裡頭轉正變成他們自己自嘲說是短期打公仔我說十次二次的補助盒已經變長期打公仔你的人才永續會永續到這裡來我們認為國歌會不僅沒有扮演好人才搖籃角色會不會變成人才黑洞啊博士進來就出不去了我想請教一下主委國歌會有沒有一些理解有沒有改進的措施如何活絡"},{"start":8446.859,"end":8472.043,"text":"國會的確也看到這樣的問題很謝謝委員再次提醒我們接下來夏年度的計畫已經有做一些調整調整就是說要擴散我們AI的應用這些博士生他已經拿了10次、20次、22次的補助了他們既沒有進學員機構也沒有進到中研院也沒有進到其他地方"},{"start":8474.504,"end":8495.757,"text":"所以我們要發展產業 發展產業讓大家有更多機會能夠做自主的創新系統的開發但您剛剛說要做的是科研人才啊 您是要做產業還是要做科研人才委員希望國科會也協助產業發展嘛 所以我們培養的人才希望我們編科技算我關注這些博士級的人才到底要去哪裡"},{"start":8497.037,"end":8522.95,"text":"現在學界的這個教師的緣額本來就不會再成長我們的人口結構在變化所以一定要往產業發展美國也是這個樣子我跟主委交流一下第一教育現場說目前聘不到教師中研院也有跟我們交流回復說中研院還有人員的編列名額沒有聘滿跟您說的是不一致的但是人才有些適合產業發展有些適合在學界發展"},{"start":8525.731,"end":8543.448,"text":"那他們也沒去學界也沒去產業我們剛剛提的是這些人啊那他們去哪裡繼續停在那裡嗎我剛剛講就是產業發展需要的人才會比較多所以我們要從產業發展所以我們產業發展的不好現在在應用面還不過所以科研人才沒有出入是產業發展的不好"},{"start":8544.096,"end":8544.817,"text":"AI產業是由國科會主導"},{"start":8559.585,"end":8582.095,"text":"AI基本法也是您先提出預告版本所以我希望可不可以由國科會邀請教育部中研院等相關單位進行研議提出具體的有策略的解決方案而不是只是開會跟會議結論而已能不能請國科會6個月內將研議結果與書面回覆給本席6個月真的有點太長了AI已經不知道發展到哪裡去了可不可以"},{"start":8582.495,"end":8609.386,"text":"不要6個月啦我們年底就有因為我們跟這幾個部會都已經討論方案早一點讓我們知道啦不然我們都不知道這20萬是怎麼含的接下來還是要跟主委談一下能源永續因為沒有能源怎麼會有AI想請教一下核能是不是零碳是不是淨零的計畫當中的一個做法這個不是我能判斷的不是你能判斷的你需不需要知道我跟委員報告"},{"start":8610.376,"end":8623.655,"text":"我們支持科研科研的這個核能不是競技池好不好我直接幫你講出來COVID-192822國都說核能在2050年以前要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":8624.571,"end":8643.043,"text":"我本來就提過只要是能夠確保安全那避免民眾的疑慮我任何的能源的研究我們都會支持好很好請教主委國務院是不是認為SMR是一個值得研究的議題小型模組化和反應器"},{"start":8643.743,"end":8663.731,"text":"我們的學研的這個計畫學界提出任何能源的這個研究方向我們都會尊重值得值得不值得對值得嘛齁您如果認為SMR值得研究但你知道113年度國科會投入多少的研究經費來補助做SMR的科研嗎110萬新台幣啦"},{"start":8669.751,"end":8693.853,"text":"我是客氣一點啦,連信義區一間廁所都買不起啊主委您知道世界各國投入多少預算在做研究嗎?我們並沒有防堵任何的這種計畫只要學界願意提出...那我們現在鼓勵多元能源科技的研究,我們是鼓勵的那你鼓不鼓勵SMR的研究?"},{"start":8694.827,"end":8722.131,"text":"主要審查我們都是學界公開審查這個審查如果大家覺得這個研究是有機會能夠對人類社會有貢獻我們當然會支持所以我幫您回顧一下在2022年您當時是工研院的首席技術專家您的建議SMR應該要納入思考範疇才能夠兼顧企業競爭力跟環保政策換了位置應該沒有換了腦袋您的看法是不是還是相同"},{"start":8725.178,"end":8749.928,"text":"我是鼓勵啊 我鼓勵任何的能源的研究啊 所以是不是鼓勵ESMR是不是想法是一致的主要提出具體的好的這個計畫通過審查我們都一定會同意的我想世界為了成立這個淨零碳排的目標其實全世界的人都在推動相關的"},{"start":8751.289,"end":8754.993,"text":"他甚至也說了要降低科技的成本AI跟能源而最佳的解決方式就是SMR跟您的看法相同"},{"start":8788.626,"end":8800.254,"text":"假股文還要做更多的三座小型核電廠的建造他都要拿到了目前新建中的全世界各國也都還有到底我們要不要發展SMA"},{"start":8801.614,"end":8814.828,"text":"主委是不是後續再跟葛委員跟他報告好嗎?我希望國會早日克服心魔能夠提高我們對於能源充足AI研發人才的這個議題好不好?謝謝主委請回謝謝葛如君委員的質詢再我們請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":8828.226,"end":8831.028,"text":"謝謝主席我請吳主委請吳主委吳委員好主委好所以剛剛前面的委員問你說沒有能源就沒有AI其實沒有預算也更不可能有AI所以我替你覺得很辛苦這個科學理性還要有務實現在野黨的立委"},{"start":8853.966,"end":8872.601,"text":"又要擋預算剛剛又要你們做一堆工作沒有預算要怎麼做所以你們在備詢的時候你們要理性務實的把你們遇到的困難要來向委員以及市民報告因為我們站在這個你站在備詢台我站在質詢台你不只對立委負責"},{"start":8873.342,"end":8895.392,"text":"你是對全國的人民負責都要清楚的去把它說明那接下來在進入今天專題報告這個討論之前因為我看到一個新聞相當擔憂想跟主委先請教有媒體報導說中國的半導體有可能技術已經追趕到不只落後台灣三年"},{"start":8896.749,"end":8899.59,"text":"中國在近年之內有可能半導體的技術追趕上台灣嗎?我認為十年以上了,落差"},{"start":8925.106,"end":8929.947,"text":"目前的落差至少10年以上中國半導體晶片現在是幾奈米?"},{"start":8931.63,"end":8961.63,"text":"臺灣臺積電"},{"start":8963.05,"end":8988.075,"text":"在這個學界引起很大的討論那因為前面委員剛也討論很多我直接進結論請教一下我們現在有關於永續發展科學防災科技、空間資訊科技等三個學門有沒有要進行整併或者是調整?沒有那這三個學門我們要繼續的來支持在預算方面有沒有進行調整?"},{"start":8988.891,"end":9010.485,"text":"有 我們其實早就編好了明年的預算 今年的預算3個學門4.8億 我們明年已經編到5.2億了 所以我們是持續在支持所以我們預算會持續來增加對 已經編列了 希望不要被刪減好 所以學門不會調整 預算要增加 這個也是我希望看到的方向我們是很正面的但是啊 但是啊"},{"start":9011.826,"end":9033.221,"text":"這個不能只看結果,過程當中我相信剛剛前面很多委員都提醒了在整個學界社群當中的參與討論各方的諮詢公開的透明這件事情為什麼這麼重要因為我們這幾個學門正好就叫做跨領域的研究"},{"start":9034.783,"end":9055.978,"text":"2017年聯合國教科文組織也就提出了我們跨領域的研究這是對我們未來全球性挑戰的一個解方2020年的OECD的報告同樣告訴我們說跨領域研究的重要性而當中因為它是跨領域所以你一定會有不同的單位一定會有更多的參與者"},{"start":9057.799,"end":9078.019,"text":"所以決策的透明以及擴大參與兩點至關重要請你們未來不管要有怎麼樣的更動一定要來遵守這樣子的程序同意可不可以是好接下來要跟主委討論大家都很關心從上個會期我們都在關切就是AI"},{"start":9079.22,"end":9094.15,"text":"因為AI是向全世界最關注的科技議題 蕭美琴副總統在AI年會上說AI這個是革命 而革命當中是成是敗 取決於我們能否跟上時代"},{"start":9095.431,"end":9113.041,"text":"我們現在看到有幾個評估的資料說臺灣的AI產業目前在亞洲是落後新加坡、落後南韓、落後日本甚至落後中國目前有一項因為好幾份報告有一份我們名次是第19名諸葳你怎麼看待這個名次"},{"start":9116.667,"end":9131.758,"text":"我們要虛心檢討因為過去台灣其實是重點我們一直在發展我們的硬體產業來供給全世界應用AI的這個算力那我們其實是過去比較忽略掉我們國內自己要發展自己的應用"},{"start":9133.199,"end":9160.141,"text":"所以我們現在已經積極在編列未來幾年的預算增加我們的算力增加算力以後利用這些算力來除了做科研的研究之外科技研究之外那也準備把這個研究成果要擴散到應用面能夠開發自己的主權AI那應用系統雲端的這個服務讓我們的人民可以受惠"},{"start":9161.042,"end":9163.003,"text":"我相信未來幾年我們排名會逐步的上升,會進到全世界的前段班。"},{"start":9180.107,"end":9187.094,"text":"我相信因為半導體已經是我們的優勢了所以有能夠應用到AI產業我們其實是有相當的競爭力跟未來的潛力發展的我在看我們幾個數字一個是我們的準備度我們的排名當然目前是在第19名可是跟中國來比較111年度我們甚至曾經一度領先中國"},{"start":9204.651,"end":9222.325,"text":"所以我想它是動態性的發展所以你剛剛講的我們現在的準備跟規劃其實就要朝向中長期的就要開始來投入了嘛 對不對那以算力來說我比較關切的是我們超級電腦的這個算力也有它也有一個排名嘛那"},{"start":9223.286,"end":9246.318,"text":"回答在去年來建制的這個超級電腦目前的排名是全球全球是第38名但是我們國科會自己的台灣三二號台灣三三號都目前都是在百名以外我看你們這個台灣三二號是2018年建制的就時間也算是久因為這個就是在跟時間賽跑對已經五年了所以我們要加強我們打算怎麼樣來加強"},{"start":9252.341,"end":9274.261,"text":"我們現在已經在建新的這個資料中心了我相信明年開始運作以後我們排名就會往前了那我們未來幾年預算會逐年再編列再增加明年是重點我們明年編了40幾億是希望把這個資料中心超級電腦的這個設備一下可以提升提升很多也開始啟動我們的應用"},{"start":9275.782,"end":9276.602,"text":"我相信大家可以拭目以待"},{"start":9298.147,"end":9325.936,"text":"所以明年的預算如果通過的話對我們的算力的提升會是一個關鍵的支持你們要去說明清楚另外主委你多次提到這個主權AI能不能說明什麼叫主權AI主權AI第一點就是說我們的訓練資料要用本土的訓練資料因為應用在本土所以國內的應用我們自己的資料我們要建我們自己的資料中心我們目前的有沒有自己的"},{"start":9326.716,"end":9346.371,"text":"我們有部分的公司自己有在做但是我們的政府還有這個一般的民眾的使用目前還是主要仰賴國外的這些系統所以大概我們很多的資料都散佈到全世界去了那將來比較關鍵性的資料我們希望能夠留在國內"},{"start":9347.532,"end":9369.24,"text":"所以要建自己的資料中心是很重要的再來就是發展自主的應用系統自主應用系統是可以配合我們自己的資料訓練出比較有能源使用效率的比較好的運算的模型能夠讓台灣的民眾受惠於我們自己的主權AI的建制能夠提供更多的增進民眾福祉的這些應用"},{"start":9370.54,"end":9373.303,"text":"所以我們的台德也算是其中之一嗎?"},{"start":9373.303,"end":9388.922,"text":"台德只是一個先期的 只是其中之一的 其中之一 但是還包括很多其他的企劃 對不對 我們現在學界還有其他的模型也在考慮上講到主旋AI我也關切 因為我看到傳出一個消息說去年底的時候OpenAI開始跟中東的投資者有在談"},{"start":9390.123,"end":9403.896,"text":"就是說討論可能未來OpenAI有可能會把資料中心建置在中東為什麼大家會這麼擔心因為它有地緣政治的關聯嘛包括中東、俄羅斯、中國這些極權國家我們擔心說會產生資安的漏洞跟後門"},{"start":9410.061,"end":9420.051,"text":"所以我們台灣要建置自己的主權AI世界各國也都在努力要建置自己的主權AI這一點相關的重要所以我一再的說"},{"start":9421.786,"end":9421.806,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":9449.105,"end":9454.889,"text":"新增預算根據預算法規．立法院沒有通過可不可以動之?"},{"start":9454.889,"end":9474.382,"text":"不可以欸!所以你們要去把它說明清楚 各位大家人生在世啊 有很多非常珍貴的事情跟時間要做既然花時間在這裡質詢備詢了 不要打假球 不要演戲既然大家都認為AI要發展 我們要進步"},{"start":9475.743,"end":9486.69,"text":"我們這些除了剛講的這個新增預算你還包括什麼我幫你看了你們院的新增預算總共有14.6億有氣候變遷研究的有空間有序規劃的有疾病導向的生醫資料研究還有我們的綠門設施我們的實驗高級中學學校建設計畫科學援軍的電價補差還有我們實驗中學等等這些電價的優惠"},{"start":9501.459,"end":9512.296,"text":"這些都叫做新增預算我過去是當市議員現在當立法委員大家都有預算法的概念新增預算立法院沒有通過你們通通一毛錢不准用如果有預算怎麼推動計畫"},{"start":9516.098,"end":9536.056,"text":"所以剛剛大家在這邊討論這麼多AI要發展主權AI每一個國家都在關心但是我們如果要馬而跑又不給馬而吃草不給預算的話請問這個計算要怎麼進行你的計畫要怎麼進行你沒有辦法動得主委所以你也必須要負責任的向市民報告講了這麼多該做的事情"},{"start":9539.759,"end":9552.212,"text":"可是預算沒有通過這些項目你剛剛說我們的AI你說幾年之內你甚至是不是說我們要超過韓國幾年之內要超越韓國我們的目標三年之內要超越韓國我們台灣喊出來了嘛但是你的預算在哪裡你沒有錢你的計畫怎麼做"},{"start":9561.843,"end":9582.032,"text":"主委這非常重要所以我要拜託你在立法院被尋的時候你們只要負責任的把這些計畫的重要性對我們國家來說我們的國民為什麼需要他請清楚的告訴國民政治的事情我們立委會來負責但是你們要清楚的向國民說明因為這是你們的專業好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":9589.022,"end":9592.504,"text":"謝謝吳培委員吳諸位請回我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9887.633,"end":9892.755,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國科會主委有請吳主委"},{"start":9920.016,"end":9944.514,"text":"總統府成立了國家氣候變遷對策委員會委員會討論設定的七大主軸裡面永續就包含了三項永續綠生活、綠色永續金融以及國土永續調適任性總統也在委員會上面去強調永續才是朝野共同的目標主委您也是國家氣候變遷對策委員會的委員相信您一定了解永續的重要性"},{"start":9945.414,"end":9968.427,"text":"行政院在112年2月21日合訂的一個科學技術白皮書裡面也有提到以前瞻創新民主包容任性永續作為台灣邁向2035科技發展遠景透過科技力量來驅動國家整體的一個轉型所以發現就是永續其實在台灣是非常非常重要不管是在科技上面或是氣候變遷上面"},{"start":9969.895,"end":9989.832,"text":"但是就像剛剛前面有很多的委員都提到就是說很多的學者有發起這個永續科研的連署書提及國科會在自然科學及永續研究發展處有意要去調整那剛剛國科會主委您也做了非常多的說明所以我想要了解就是說因為原本在9月16日有去澄清說沒有這個更動的這個規劃"},{"start":9991.94,"end":10011.414,"text":"好,那這個也預計在一個月內會來召開學門會議所以我想要了解現在我們已經有一些初步的溝通了嗎?有了解一些學者的想法,有些掌握了嗎?可不可以做個說明?好,請處長,我先請處長好,委員會委員好我們在一個月內溝通我們預計在10月1日、10月2日、10月9日分別跟這三個學門來進行溝通謝謝"},{"start":10021.26,"end":10047.246,"text":"好 那我希望就是說如果我們溝通之後是希望可以積極的去傾聽我們這個召集人的一些想法來尊重畢竟永續是非常重要的一個課題那其實我也想想就是說國科會在回應學界的訴求其實有一直強調永續科研和今年會逐年增加這兩項作為但是因為學界代表還是會認為這樣的說法過於的簡單化和表面化無法有效的緩解他們的疑慮"},{"start":10048.266,"end":10054.574,"text":"所以雖然經費的增加非常重要但是僅靠補助並沒有辦法解決學術發展的一些核心問題"},{"start":10056.502,"end":10075.009,"text":"那我們就繼續講要補助這件事情根據自由時報的報導國科會回應瞭解社會的發展問題需要不同專業領域的對話來形成解決方案所以會長期的來支持支持永續防災與空間資訊等跨領域相關學門的研究那2023年這三個領域跨領域的學門經費是4.8億明年我們有規劃了5.2億也就是剛剛"},{"start":10084.272,"end":10099.724,"text":"主委一直強調的我們投入的資源是有逐年成長的但是我也發現了在國科會的補助研究計畫永續發展研究的領域這個研究計畫的通過率卻是逐年下降的從2016年我們還有56.6%到2024年只剩下30.1%"},{"start":10106.912,"end":10128.68,"text":"相較我們整體全部的合計的一個整體合定通過率是46.5%那自然處總體平均也都有達到50.7所以其實我們在這個永續發展研究的合定率是相對來低的那再來我們來看金額部分金額在2024年合定"},{"start":10129.724,"end":10145.88,"text":"的金額也是創下2014年以來最低的金額只有9200萬所以剛剛其實主委也算說整體經費是有提升的但是我們可以看到其實經費在這個領域下面卻是往下掉的核定率也是往下掉的有學者說是因為要"},{"start":10146.96,"end":10164.381,"text":"和並到其他部門才會讓這個核定率很難通過主委要不要澄清說明一下是是謝謝委員提起這個議題其實不是表面上這樣看的結果我們其實第一我們5.2億增加這個預算其實幅度相當高這是我們在"},{"start":10165.362,"end":10194.207,"text":"並列明年預算說早就編了不是因為這次事件我們早就編了那第二個這個計畫的合定數那個下降這個議題是因為我們昨年在編這個預算在合定計畫的時候是鼓勵多年期的研究是對學者是好的我們通過多年期的研究以後我們其實換算實質的那個通過率是到六成不是三成是到六成"},{"start":10194.887,"end":10219.101,"text":"那再來就是說我們新進的學者我們都有保障他們的計畫所以其實是沒有那個委員顧慮的這個問題啦我們在這三個學門裡面並不會比其他的學門核定力還要低並沒有好所以我想確認一下我們主委聽起來就是說我們在永續防災空間資訊如果是連續性的加起來我們的總體經費"},{"start":10220.996,"end":10239.821,"text":"三個都有增加嗎?還是三個加總才是增加?三個都有增加那請問一下就是說因為剛剛主委說你們有一些相關的是一個連續性的計畫那是不是可以把這些相關的申請中的一些計畫跟核定的相關數據在一個月以內提供到我們辦公室讓我們來做參考好不好?"},{"start":10243.641,"end":10263.245,"text":"永續AI是一個非常關鍵的角色2020年委員委託了資誠聯合會計事務所來研究結果顯示在他們進行的農業水、能源和交通運輸等四個領域他們如果使用在AI是可以解決很不錯的環境問題到2030年估計可以為全球經濟貢獻達"},{"start":10268.846,"end":10272.847,"text":"國科會在AI這個世代看起來效果這個AI的導入的效果會非常好我們有沒有一些相關的規劃來幫台灣實踐一個永續的未來你可不可以具體的簡單說明"},{"start":10291.594,"end":10307.705,"text":"謝謝委員我們明年有一個新增的計畫就是智慧科技大南方產業生態系我們就是因為過去我們比較注重在硬體的研發那未來我們在AI的領域在解決我們人類社會面臨的問題還有國內產業發展的問題在賴總統提到均衡台灣"},{"start":10312.968,"end":10339.279,"text":"的這樣的這個國政願景之下我們利用我們高科技產業已經非常好的這個技術來協助我們其他傳統的產業百光百業希望能夠共同發展所以我們在明年的預算裡面有適當的調整我們AI的預算除了增加我們的這個算力的建置之外我們也鼓勵在我們其他部會的這個預算的編列上面結合需求端應用端的這個產業"},{"start":10340.379,"end":10364.366,"text":"跟我們的科技結合在一起希望能夠發展出更多的好聽起來主委已經有一個詳細的規劃了那這些規劃或是有些已經有一些初步的規劃的話是不是也可以送到我們辦公室來做個參考是好沒問題那這個預算的話我們我想就是剛剛吳佩玉委員也有呼籲啦因為這對台灣非常非常的重要所以我也希望在野黨的立委可以盡快的讓這個預算可以送來委員會讓我們可以盡快的審查因為AI的競爭是每秒分秒必爭啦"},{"start":10369.547,"end":10395.487,"text":"再來就是說因為其實我剛剛有提到我們科學技術白皮書這部分我也蠻想跟主委來討論一下就是說我們日本其實鄰近的國家日本他們也有這個科學技術革新白皮書那他們開宗明義就已經提到了人工智慧帶來的科技創新變革那我們也有科學技術白皮書可是我們的科學技術白皮書在112年發定的時候其實通篇只有提到18次AI"},{"start":10397.388,"end":10419.508,"text":"這個比例跟我們現在講AI及國力似乎有點落差那根據科學技術基本法第10條有規定政府應該考量國家發展的方向社會需求情形以及區域均衡發展每4年訂定國家科學技術發展計畫作為擬定科學技術政策與推動科學技術研究發展之依據並經全國科學技術會議討論後由行政院核定"},{"start":10423.852,"end":10440.302,"text":"所以說新的科學技術白皮書是在全國技術會議上的共識基礎上來盤點台灣當前的問題與挑戰那我想問一下從主委的視角來看112年的版本是否跟得上我們科技發展的腳步呢?"},{"start":10441.127,"end":10465.113,"text":"最近因為AI的發展就是非常的快速所以的確我也覺得說我們也到了時間要去開始去構思怎麼樣去修訂這個科技的白皮書那我們今年會年底會全科會年底會召開12月我們年底會全國科技會議我們會詳盡討論這個議題然後接下來我們就會逐步來修訂這個白皮書"},{"start":10470.237,"end":10486.333,"text":"對,但是我想請教主委就是說我們現在的法規是定4年才一次可是我知道鄰近的國家是每年都有去修訂那如果AI的發展是這麼的快速的話我們是不是應該來修法呢?因為4年實在是跟不上現在發展的腳步啊"},{"start":10487.849,"end":10502.188,"text":"委員的建議很好我不知道這是不是牽涉到我們的法規有沒有限制這個報告委員那個全科會跟全國的科學技術法案計畫是定在科技基本法裡面定的"},{"start":10503.468,"end":10517.315,"text":"但是那個科技白皮書上面就有特別提到說我們兩年會滾動修正一次所以以現在台灣目前的制度我們是兩年來滾動的檢討修正一次但是我想我們因為我想臨近的日本是一年我們有沒有考慮"},{"start":10518.456,"end":10518.776,"text":"最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":10539.622,"end":10565.104,"text":"因為剛剛我們大概一直在講AI啊科技的技術啊所以我想就是大家剛剛主委也有提到不能只有focus在技術我們還有其他的領域也需要去顧及所以在最近的一個天下未來城市他推出了一個AI20的專題報告其中這個中研院人社院的研究員蔡宗翰他就提到了當前台灣社會對於AI的認知似乎出現了偏差"},{"start":10566.485,"end":10573.377,"text":"AI熱潮促使學生爭相報考志工系﹚可是卻傳出人文科系的申請報告率是掛0的"},{"start":10580.646,"end":10609.576,"text":"我自己之前也去在這個7月的時候呢有一個中研院舉行的一個院士會議我也去拜訪了孔祥仲院士我想他應該算是AI領域非常頂尖的一個翹楚他其實有跟我談到就是人文社會人才將會清晰的刻畫台灣文化和社會價值觀甚至可以想像台灣5年10年之後的社會樣貌我們應該重視人才培育這樣子人設的人才培育來將台灣打造成為一個AI民主文化中心"},{"start":10610.256,"end":10630.185,"text":"我認為AI的發展需要有一些框架需要一些倫理所以非常需要人文社會科學的那我就想直接請問我們剛剛有講會做一個人文的一個年底會有一個科學技術會議要召開我們有沒有邀請相關的人文產學跟學研的代表來出席呢"},{"start":10633.581,"end":10647.341,"text":"公共委員一定有因為我們現在其實全科會的議題裡面還包括了均衡社會創新經濟智慧科研跟淨零永續在所有的東西討論的時候我們都會請社會學者一起來參與"},{"start":10649.043,"end":10668.399,"text":"我可以再用一點點時間就好了可是我也發現我們在全國科技動態調查的研究人力統計我們在2017年還有10%的研發人力是在人設院可是我們到現在只剩下8.7%人數的確在科技的這個動態研究人力上面的確是下降的所以我認為我們應該鼓勵相關的人"},{"start":10673.422,"end":10690.929,"text":"來投入專業的科技研發活動．所以是不是可以請主委在一個月內提出相關的規劃．讓我們來做一些參考好 謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢吳主委請回再來我們請林一金委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":10706.558,"end":10721.528,"text":"主委你剛上任的時候曾表示說要拚三個月的有感政績那在上個會期我們國科會初次您來業務報告的時候主委你也曾跟本席來具體描述你將優先推動的這個幾個面向"},{"start":10723.149,"end":10723.189,"text":"主席"},{"start":10754.149,"end":10767.714,"text":"這幾個月來您努力的成績那也要請主委簡單說明一下這幾個面向上特別您宣示的這幾個面向你覺得現在你有做出哪些有感的重大政策"},{"start":10769.107,"end":10786.348,"text":"第一,我們已經3個月之內規劃了一個智慧科技大南方產業生態系新增的方案那也在行政院通過也編列到我們的預算裏面就是明年的預算裏面希望能夠如期的啟動"},{"start":10787.589,"end":10815.538,"text":"那在這個智慧大南方的方案裡面呢我們會結合從嘉義以南一直到屏東那座落在我們的這個沙倫的科學層這個地方國科會本來就已經有投資那未來會再投資一個新的這個所以這個智慧大南方的這個類似這種科學層裡面你具體要實施的就是所謂您剛講的這些"},{"start":10817.398,"end":10840.13,"text":"會鏈接百工百業除了我們已經有的科技產業之外我們會把需求端包含到服務業以及傳統的製造業我們都希望能夠協助他們協助他們可以做數位轉型跟智慧化把我們的主權AI建起來讓他們能夠受益發展我們自主的AI應用的這些系統我們會做這個事"},{"start":10843.032,"end":10869.629,"text":"另外當然今天非常多的委員在關注就是有超過600個學者對於這個來連署呼籲我們國科會要重新重視永續發展跨域的研究那我想剛剛也聽您做一些的這個澄清跟解釋那我想這個科研要永續不只是這個政策層面的宣示跟目標的訂定而已"},{"start":10870.389,"end":10881.173,"text":"國科會怎麼樣注重跟學界的溝通跟建立互信我想這一部分是非常非常的重要所以我們當然您的曾經有表示說要團結來面對話語的難題不過就誠如本席剛剛提到的引領科學發展的這個國科會應該要加強跟各層面的有效溝通跟互信"},{"start":10896.138,"end":10920.925,"text":"你才能確保這個系統性的政策的建置跟這個恰當的這個資源分配所以我在這邊還是要提醒主委應該跟產學研各界要做一些溝通的清除那會不會有資源重新的配置或政策定位能不能被外界理解等等的疑慮那我想這部分你到底現在有沒有把握會做好溝通的工作"},{"start":10921.739,"end":10936.677,"text":"我們會努力做好溝通不是努力,有沒有把握有把握啦,因為我也不是壞人啦所以我想大家會諒解我會盡力去溝通從我們基層研究的學者"},{"start":10938.414,"end":10965.549,"text":"你不是壞人,那我想你是好人,好人不一定會做好的事所以其實你要有把握你有努力可是不一定能成功所以要有把握能掌握你能去補充疑慮的地方也要有把握能做好溝通這部分很重要今天很多委員都在關心這件事情是我知道所以我會努力去做我是有把握的但是"},{"start":10966.65,"end":10982.708,"text":"結果當然取決於最後大家是不是信任我所以我覺得是沒問題啦因為今天委員溝通的事情我覺得原來負面的那個意圖其實都不存在所以我是很有信心大家會認同"},{"start":10983.729,"end":11008.639,"text":"期待您再來的處理狀況另外就是談及這個永續科研我想環境的永續的地位應該被優先看待那同樣是上個會期的質詢中有關於科學園區事業廢棄物再利用率的問題我們從行政院本會期的施政報告中有得知接近今年6月底"},{"start":11009.279,"end":11025.009,"text":"三個園區的試驗廢棄物的再利用率有高達9494%那上次本席在質詢這個題目的時候就是主委你有提到你們會將園區廠商一起協力一樣將這個試驗廢棄物的再利用率達到100%你上次有這樣誇下海口往這個目標邁進那目前不曉得努力了怎麼樣"},{"start":11035.421,"end":11049.111,"text":"我們持續在進行中科管理局已經跟台積電合作把相關的這個台積電的協力廠商集中在園區裡面做一個叫零費製造中心那由台積電來輔導這些廠商"},{"start":11052.533,"end":11068.992,"text":"對那目標就是真的是要做到百分之百當然當然最後最後就是還會產生一些固態的這個廢棄物那是無毒的固態廢棄物我們就可以符合我們的法規標準運出園區目標就是不要把汙染的水啦氣體"},{"start":11070.333,"end":11092.568,"text":"．"},{"start":11092.688,"end":11105.235,"text":"所以他很期待未來能達到百分百那我想為了使這個台灣科技發展立足國際我們剛剛有委員垂詢就是說我們行政院有提出這個精創台灣方案那不只是本島的這個產創環境品質提升我們也看到國科會有選擇要到捷克布拉格來打造台灣第一座的IC設計的這個海外訓練基地"},{"start":11120.703,"end":11137.67,"text":"我想在半導體產業裡面台灣不管在製造、代工我們的成果其實是世界數一數二可是不過在設計上我想我們可能還沒有開拓自己的一片天下所以當然我們要肯定國科會有跨出這一大步"},{"start":11138.97,"end":11167.51,"text":"現在就是說我們針對是否如期可以營運那國科會不久前有表示說針對這個金創方案的執行方向包括國際合作的這個策略進行重新規劃跟調整所以我要請教主委有關這個金創前進基地沒有辦法如期來營運那目前到底要進行什麼樣的這個規劃跟調整那未來是否還會規劃更多這類的前進的基地主委"},{"start":11168.19,"end":11184.45,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有中止,需要調整,調整的原因是因為最近因為捷克也有選舉的事情,我們當初接任的時候也是新手"},{"start":11185.271,"end":11203.44,"text":"所以雙方的人員要互相認識在溝通經過一段時間然後在捷克因為它是一個執政聯盟有很多的政黨是一起執政的所以他們對於這個我們設立的這種合作的機制也有不同的意見那不同意見並不是說我們要終止而是他們還在討論怎麼樣做事比較好那也跟我們在溝通當中那可能本來是9月要揭牌的等等"},{"start":11211.644,"end":11228.352,"text":"我們可能只是延到也許在年底年底之前一定會一定會完成好完成這個除了捷克這個點以外我們現在的策略我已經很明確定了我們半導體在國際合作策略這個策略就是利用我們半導體製造的優勢我們目前選定的這個區域包含日本包含美國還有在在這個德國因為我們台積電的這個設廠所需要的這個人才是非常非常多"},{"start":11240.537,"end":11267.22,"text":"透過我們跟這些友好國家的學員的合作來培養我們台積電需要的人才這個人才其實在我們台灣不只在我們台灣在德國製造基地以及它的整個供應鏈在日本在美國都有所以透過國科會的這個機制對台積電的這個永續發展其實非常重要我們會加強這一點所以不只捷克我們在德國甚至鄰近的波蘭"},{"start":11267.981,"end":11268.782,"text":"對德國廠的人才未來的發展是非常重要的"},{"start":11283.078,"end":11308.094,"text":"繼續加油我想談到永續科研我們就不得不談到近期這個席捲而來的這個AI浪潮自然期間有登出一篇AI研究研究團隊有發現說早期的AI模型遇到不懂的問題它比較會迴避那升級過後的這個版本它會出現一些湖州答案的情形"},{"start":11309.274,"end":11327.243,"text":"他們分析了三大語言模型像說openAI的GPT或者Meta就是臉書的LLAMA還有就是Bloom那我想發現越來越大的語言模型回答的精準度當然確實有上升"},{"start":11328.664,"end":11346.649,"text":"但這些不精確的答案中,其實錯誤的比例也有上升有專家指出說可能是因為未給AI模型訓練的語料不見得完全正確以及模型本身也不見得可以篩掉這些資訊錯誤的假象對於這篇期刊所針對的模型當然已經是2004年"},{"start":11353.131,"end":11354.012,"text":"我們現在這些疑慮嗎?那我們要如何去定期檢查"},{"start":11378.507,"end":11378.727,"text":"主席"},{"start":11408.607,"end":11408.627,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11429.015,"end":11430.816,"text":"謝謝林一金委員的質詢吳主委請回座請洪森翰委員質詢質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":11459.169,"end":11460.354,"text":"請吳誠文主委還有賴處長好請吳主委還有賴處長"},{"start":11466.753,"end":11495.408,"text":"黃委員好主委好今天很多委員都在跟國科會在討論關於我們這個永續科研學門的這個問題因為這一次在爭議中的這幾個學門包括永續房災空間這幾個學門其實跟我過去的工作其實有非常非常大的相關所以裡面有很多的學者也是我們長期在交換意見跟合作的學者"},{"start":11496.428,"end":11520.015,"text":"所以這一次的事件確實就有理解到其實在學界真的造成了一個很大的震盪最後我想先請問主委也好或者賴處長也好你們是不是永續或空間或防災這些方面的專業者專家是不是我不是賴處長是不是我也不是好"},{"start":11521.553,"end":11544.65,"text":"主委跟賴處長你們一定都有你們學友專精特別專長的領域可是就像剛剛你們說的其實在這幾個學門你們不是專家那這時候我就會有一些疑問了因為我剛剛也聽了主委回答剛剛前面幾位委員的回答說這中間是因為處長跟你針對你們有一些想法在做討論但我有一個問題"},{"start":11547.093,"end":11554.912,"text":"那為什麼這個形成想法之前不是先去請教這幾個學門真正的"},{"start":11555.913,"end":11555.933,"text":"為何?"},{"start":11585.956,"end":11609.917,"text":"其實應該沒有做決策啦當然我知道還沒有做決策對可是我聽起來我說這個過程我說決策的這個過程裡面討論的過程為什麼不是先找這方面領域的長期的專案者先討論大家的意見是什麼大家的看法是什麼而是你們先"},{"start":11611.314,"end":11635.56,"text":"自己就先討論,或者是自己就有點先入為主,然後惹出這滿城風雨,為什麼?還沒有討論,真的報告委員還沒有討論,根本沒有會議討論這個事情,而只是那個處長他有個想法是想要協助我們這幾個選民。協助沒有問題,但是現在問題是你們在思考協助的方案,"},{"start":11636.22,"end":11642.885,"text":"主委 我要跟你說我其實不贊成現在什麼溝不溝通啦你們要先做的事情是請教不是溝通溝通是我有想法的我來說服你這是溝通我跟證"},{"start":11660.64,"end":11675.138,"text":"但是根本沒有在這個過程,照理來說是我其實就算我們想要來協助,但我應該來先問這個學門裡面的人該怎麼協助我們有這個想法以後你成方案,那後面才有溝不溝通的事情"},{"start":11676.439,"end":11701.33,"text":"我先想了一套我先入為主先想了一套然後我說我來跟你溝通我來加強溝通這邏輯不對啊不是啊是真的是要請教沒錯啦要請教只是還沒有請教的時候就出現連署了嘛所以我們就先不動然後接下來就是要去請教了所以那個處長已經安排已經排好要第一先跟學門內的學者先請教"},{"start":11702.77,"end":11728.846,"text":"我知道剛剛主委有討論有說接下來有三場我建議這不是溝通會議這是請教會議請教大家該怎麼做這是第一個第二個剛剛林副主委有講到接下來大家會很重視調適的科研我自己非常在意調適的問題因為大家都知道氣候變遷、氣候的變化很有可能其實不太有回頭路我們只能減緩"},{"start":11730.506,"end":11731.998,"text":"但可能還是會遇到的風險"},{"start":11733.479,"end":11761.176,"text":"我們必須靠調適來去處理但我要講為什麼我知道為什麼這些學者非常那麼重視跨領域以調適來說調適就是一個完全需要跨領域的事情今天如果我在南部有一個地方養殖他這個養殖密集區遇到海平面上升所以造成我養殖可能會造可能會有一些衝擊或影響我可能要怎麼做我先要氣候科學來做情境的評估跟模擬我需要有一些空間資訊"},{"start":11762.837,"end":11788.909,"text":"來去做我這個有沒有空間資訊或者是都市計畫規劃的調整我甚至需要社會科學來去討論我的產業有沒有可能做轉型最後才是政策溝通這完全就是一個跨領域的事情所以主委為什麼大家這麼在意跨領域這事情就我自己跟這些學界們的合作裡面過去就都是這些事情所以這是為什麼大家在意的事情我最後要問主委一個事情我就直問了"},{"start":11790.444,"end":11797.489,"text":"主委現在我們600位學者出來連署大家也擔心喔會不會秋後算帳啊不會"},{"start":11798.626,"end":11799.547,"text":"公平公開公正希望主委可以遵守這個原則好不好"},{"start":11826.507,"end":11846.039,"text":"今天這個風波走到現在,我們希望有一個收尾,未來可以做得更好,我們都往未來看,好不好?所有學者都要做得更好是,沒錯,謝謝主委請回,謝謝洪森和委員再來請郭育晴委員質詢不好意思,因為我要維持公平性,所以請"},{"start":11852.818,"end":11856.871,"text":"謝謝主席主委辛苦了有請主委"},{"start":11862.811,"end":11880.581,"text":"主席早安剛剛其實在前面我們幾位立委的同事們在跟您在座詢答的時候其實我們不斷的聽到您有特別提到明年度我們會有新的計畫明年度我們有新編列的預算明年度我們要跟國際更緊密的接軌等等等等但是我們應該都知道在9月24日的禮拜二"},{"start":11891.887,"end":11907.308,"text":"程旭委員會上我也在場我們的所有的年度也就是114年的年度新增的預算那目前在國科會這個部分其實有700多億是全數打包退回"},{"start":11907.848,"end":11921.908,"text":"是連重審討論的基本的這個事件其實是完全就已經是打回原樣了就是是零就這個部分您怎麼看心裡做何感受"},{"start":11923.359,"end":11948.447,"text":"我想不管是我們執政黨的委員還是在野黨委員大概都知道國會編列這些科研的預算其實攸關我們國力的發展攸關我們產業的發展攸關我們社會福祉的增進所以我是很誠心的希望我們在野黨可以支持跟我們執政黨"},{"start":11949.628,"end":11955.384,"text":"這邊可以來溝通讓我們的預算可以通過造福全民"},{"start":11955.925,"end":11982.675,"text":"所以剛剛其實我這個一路齁從早上然後剛剛我有特別換了一下順序我這麼一路聽過來我聽到許多的這個在野黨的立委們齁就說你們要增年預算啊你們要怎麼樣啊我自己聽起來是覺得還蠻諷刺的啦齁就是要馬兒好馬兒能夠跑但是我們不給預算喔齁這個部分其實我們也希望能夠再跟在野黨好好的溝通一下齁好"},{"start":11984.216,"end":11988.72,"text":"今天第一件事情其實是跟時事有關啦其實剛剛很多的委員們也特別有特別提到就是跟學界這邊的一個溝通啦那就是有600位的這個學者這個跨領域的一個學者那麼基於這個永續發展其實他們不希望只是淪為所謂的政策的一個修辭啦"},{"start":12006.638,"end":12034.361,"text":"當然他們也會擔心將來投入的一些公共的資源研究的心血可能就會複製一句就是說我們在國科會這個內部有一些調整他們希望學者學界們的聲音也希望讓我們這邊來聽到其實他們有兩大的一個訴求就是學術的自由就應該要公平公正公開的一個原則之下我們來討論這些事情如果中間有一些"},{"start":12035.262,"end":12035.762,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":12050.45,"end":12073.37,"text":"就是反對上對下就像我們委員在質詢部會首長我們也絕對不會上對下我們是平等的吼那這個部分他們這也是他們希望的那再來其實就是他們希望在這個國科會在正式新政府新政策尤其是永續發展跟淨零挑戰的這個政策相關的部分呢能夠"},{"start":12076.393,"end":12092.891,"text":"來聽聽更多其他跨領域專業學者的一個聲音來尋求一個共識而不是說我決定了什麼我就要來做什麼這個部分目前你們的回應有讓這些學者得到滿意的答案嗎或者是你們有取得他們一些共識嗎"},{"start":12094.093,"end":12109.634,"text":"我們已經排定了要去請教這些學者那委員提醒了這幾項我完全都同意我們會按照這個方向來進行目前排定什麼時候會跟他們再坐下來好好的來做溝通處長可以"},{"start":12111.511,"end":12125.369,"text":"基本上我們已經安排10月1日、2日及9日及這三個學門的委員然後還有一些學門的成員就是我們的學者一起來討論謝謝請教"},{"start":12128.733,"end":12152.876,"text":"是是是因為我想說彼此的尊重因為跨領域總是有人如果我在這裡問你修身藝術你肯定也不會嘛對不對所以其實這個跨領域上面的我們要取得更多的共識就必須要更平心靜氣的坐下來聽聽別人的一些聲音也作為自己精進的一個參考好那再來其實剛剛也有一些委員有特別提到就是我們"},{"start":12153.696,"end":12180.223,"text":"台灣AI的一個排名跟超級電腦的算力目前來看雖然感覺好像以全球來說好像A好像還是蠻前面但是就整個亞洲的部分其實我們算是中後段班這個部分尤其是AI的這個落地的應用我們都知道必須要仰賴所謂的超級電腦的一個龐大的算力跟它的速度這個同意吧"},{"start":12180.683,"end":12201.954,"text":"我同意當各國其實都在積極地爭取主權AI的時候其實這個部分我們也要非常的這個算是我要給這個正面的肯定就是我們有這個台灣三的一個系列這是台灣獨立自製的一個超級電腦之一但是目前為止這個算力的部分或者是在我們的這個創新一號的這個超級電腦"},{"start":12204.735,"end":12230.004,"text":"我們當然要不斷地去栽培一些人才才能夠讓台灣成為智慧國家的一個目標但是根據英國Oxford Insight每年對於所謂的各國AI準備程度來進行一個評比台灣其實目前是落後到第19名 這個部分 諸位怎麼看?"},{"start":12230.97,"end":12246.925,"text":"我們現在正在努力,剛剛委員也提到說我們已經編列預算了,這個預算我希望能夠順利獲得立法院的支持,讓我們明年資料中心的設備,就是超級電腦的建置可以順利的完成。"},{"start":12247.626,"end":12267.479,"text":"我希望如果我們能夠按照計畫執行的話我們將來的這個準備度一定會大幅提升那我們同步也會發展剛剛有提到這個AI應用的新的主權AI系統的這個開發也結合我們的產業界的投資希望能夠讓我們的AI的這個準備度的排名"},{"start":12269.901,"end":12279.45,"text":"提升,讓民眾可以受益,各行各業都可以受益到我們自己發展的這個主權AI的應用系統。"},{"start":12280.356,"end":12281.457,"text":"總算力的排名前三國以全球來講是美國日本跟芬蘭"},{"start":12302.467,"end":12313.462,"text":"台灣是第17目前我們國科會所建制的剛剛我提到的台灣山2號的排名已經從2018年的第20名滑落到今年變成是106名這個部分怎麼解釋它呢?"},{"start":12318.408,"end":12345.208,"text":"所以5年來大家可以看到5年來的進步非常的快那各國都在投資當中所以我們也要加緊腳步 急起直追所以我們從明年開始我們陸續會建置的這個算力會從現在的這個19大概19的Petal Flops進步到可能會超過20倍啦在4年內超過20倍希望能夠把台灣的排名往上不斷的提升"},{"start":12345.708,"end":12368.348,"text":"因為我們知道這個距離我們的目標我們的目標其實還有五年的時間那當然這個算力其實也會影響到比方說我們講的地震的一個預測或者是氣候或者是一個災害的應變等等所以這五年當中如果沒有其他的一些事件的一些干擾那我說這個五年有可能達標嗎?"},{"start":12370.239,"end":12388.54,"text":"五年內如果我們按照我們計畫執行我覺得一定可以達標因為政府的這個投入會引起會帶動產業的投入特別我們在發展應用的部分加緊腳步的話產業投入一定會遠高於這個政府的投入所以我們算力的提升會大幅增加的"},{"start":12389.32,"end":12410.409,"text":"好 那剛剛有特別提到一個產業的部分那其實我們台灣企業整體的AI的準備度其實目前還是偏低啦因為台灣大概其實有98%以上其實都是所謂的中小的企業那這個部分其實我們可能還是期待這個國科會這個地方可能也要去慢慢的去輔導這些"},{"start":12411.189,"end":12411.469,"text":"國會會議的回應是2026年"},{"start":12430.896,"end":12432.657,"text":"我們希望能夠是在2026但目前為止這個計畫好像還是遠遠的落後2026有可能我們可以看到我們台灣第一顆的低軌衛星發射嗎"},{"start":12451.292,"end":12471.15,"text":"我們太空中心原來在規劃太空三期的時候那時候並沒有涵蓋通信衛星因為那時候低軌衛星的產業還不是那麼明朗那後來決定要發展低軌衛星的時候其實主要是通信低軌衛星是做通信使用那是重點"},{"start":12471.77,"end":12478.335,"text":"因為那個是在比方說像第一尾衛星我們知道在這個惡霧戰爭當中其實它扮演了非常重要的一個角色所以它牽涉到台灣的這個韌性我們通訊的韌性也牽涉到國安還有國土安全我們的監測等等將來在海面上在這個偏遠地區我們都有辦法能夠維持我們的通訊這是非常重要但是因為台灣過去並沒有這個經驗做這個衛星通訊的系統"},{"start":12498.912,"end":12525.769,"text":"所以我特別安排了一個全國的我們叫SRV的這個會議在10月就要舉行會把我們整個臺灣的在今年10月嗎?今年,對,下個月就要舉行了,很快那就是希望能夠得到一個我們的政府、學界還有產業界的共識將來讓大家知道說我們在太空科技裡面進到低軌衛星通信的籌載的發展晶片非常重要"},{"start":12526.269,"end":12541.214,"text":"目前我們沒有這個晶片的能力我們要透過跟美國跟日本的合作引進相關的這個規格技術發展台灣的這種產業我們會有一個完整的策略在我們SRV會議開完以後就會公告了"},{"start":12541.534,"end":12560.971,"text":"我想這個完整的策略當然其實我們以完美的這個去想像這個時間點其實我們自己內部來做是絕對OK嘛但是問題是在選址我們要舉辦公聽會因為還有環評還有當地居民這部分光是公聽會的部分要取得共識可能不是只有短短一兩年所以2026肯定延後"},{"start":12562.611,"end":12583.096,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們衛星發射如果要自己在我們自己本土做的話這個時間會比較長但是我們發射衛星目前都是美國協助我們發射但是衛星我們自己設計特別是通訊的那個籌載也是自己設計至於選址的部分謝謝委員提醒我們已經初步選定了選定了可能的這個場址"},{"start":12584.736,"end":12603.878,"text":"當然在台東縣、在這個屏東縣我們現在正在規劃要進行這個溝通先跟我們部落原住民的部落溝通再來就是這個地方政府也進來協調因為還有這個用地的取得等等或許這些我們會按照法規、按照程序來進行"},{"start":12604.639,"end":12621.989,"text":"好,如果有比較確定的一些進程再麻煩讓我的辦公室稍微知道因為我上個會期就在關心這個事情好,謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝謝謝主席好,謝謝郭育群委員主委請回再來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝主席請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":12637.562,"end":12657.534,"text":"各位好,在2022年底CHAT GPT公布之後,我們國科會這邊就有意識到說其實AI聊天機器人的文化侵略性質很強,所以宣布我們台灣要自己製造自己的繁體中文語言模型,也就是TED"},{"start":12658.174,"end":12675.958,"text":"那泰德建制計畫呢從2023年4月底啟動之後大概一年的時間後我們在今年的5月初有成果的發表那本席在5月底的時候有試用過發現說其實泰德的資料庫有許多資料沒有及時的更新那本席在質詢的時候主委這邊我也有詢過過您"},{"start":12678.939,"end":12688.765,"text":"那也要求國科會這邊呢應該要增加TIDE的資料庫並且設定出定期更新的時程那我這邊想請教主委目前辦理的狀況怎樣對這個資料庫的增加還有整個的期程我們如何訂定"},{"start":12694.827,"end":12722.792,"text":"有,我們也持續編列預算從明年開始也希望增加它的這個應用那誠如陳委員所提到的我們在應用的時候那個訓練資料非常重要那我們現在有不同的這個管道獲得資料一個就是公開的資料是免費的不需要授權的另外一種就是需要授權的資料我們也增加需要授權資料需要編列經費因為有些資料是需要授權金的"},{"start":12722.912,"end":12735.968,"text":"你意思是說如果有一些公開資料不需要授權的我們會盡快把這些資料更新進去那對於需要授權需要付費的這個部分呢我們也編列預算了來增加是嗎那對於更新的時程你們怎麼訂定"},{"start":12740.719,"end":12752.308,"text":"資料更新是一直在持續進行的啦那現在幾個重點的推動第一個會以公部門的資料為主所以我們在年底會推出一些公部門的應用推出那包含立院達許這些系統也在規劃之中"},{"start":12753.945,"end":12778.251,"text":"所以是不定期的來更新就是資料更新本來就一直在收集我們一個團隊在國研院下面一個團隊一直在持續收集資料泰德在目前已經算是一個訓練有成果出來的階段那後續呢作為說我們泰德算是一個比較完整的資訊而且是資訊正確的一個繁體中文的語言模型那後續呢國科會這邊你們有沒有對泰德的推廣有什麼計畫跟目標我們預計跟哪些產業來合作"},{"start":12783.274,"end":12812.752,"text":"我們將來在智慧科技當然方產業生態系我們從事應用的時候我們也會把它用上來將來就會結合我們的產業的發展希望產業進來以後針對各行各業能夠訓練各行各業需求的這種模型在從明年的計畫開始就會陸續推動所以也就不只在現在我們的預算只能協助政府做部分的這個應用而已將來各行各業的應用才是最重要的"},{"start":12813.533,"end":12827.067,"text":"後續有沒有跨國的推廣合作的這些使用的計畫?如果將來使用繁體中文的系統的一些應用其他國家地區有需要的話我們當然也能夠透過我們的產業界能夠擴展到國際市場"},{"start":12828.769,"end":12854.487,"text":"因為這個不同於是那種開放性的就是比較open的那種AI的使用它是一個比較有選擇性的但是因為國科會我們建制的這個態的這個整個系統其實很不容易而且這也是正確的方向因為其實大家有體會到說在這個目前AI的使用上簡體字版其實對我們台灣是非常的不友善而且很多訊息是不正確的那所以說我們如果已經有"},{"start":12856.408,"end":12867.174,"text":"一個成果展現出來的希望可以持續的精進泰德的資料庫像世界展現說我們可以正確回答台灣相關問題的AI那這個部分也希望說我們國科會這邊除了剛才我提到的在資料庫的建置補充以及更新這個隨時的更新之外呢能夠比較積極的來推廣我們有一個正確的聲音在國際上替我們台灣來發聲"},{"start":12882.342,"end":12886.649,"text":"委員的提醒非常重要我們也很同意我們希望往這個方向努力"},{"start":12888.101,"end":12903.692,"text":"接下來我想請教主委其實今天也蠻多委員有針對這個問題審計部有針對我們國科會延攬人才計畫中我們博士級的研究人員的延攬情形提出了檢討那有指出說其中有178位的人員接受補助延攬已經10到22次更有123位的人員自從102年開始就接受延攬補助"},{"start":12913.118,"end":12915.859,"text":"本席覺得說其實針對延攬人才的補助我們的初衷是希望說我們這些人才在計畫結束之後呢可以轉任進學校產業或是研究機構但是像這個樣子不斷的接受延攬的狀況主委對這個狀況你有什麼想法我覺得的確是對這些人才"},{"start":12934.504,"end":12962.286,"text":"來講有些不公平的地方那我們其實也已經提醒我們用人的單位在接受國會補助的時候希望能夠協助這些人才能夠做適當的生涯發展不要只是說一個聘約結束就沒有了這些人員其實他是計劃人力他不是認知他等於是非典型的勞工他對他的這樣的一份工作其實他沒有長期聘用的保證相對來說也是對他生涯發展的一個阻礙"},{"start":12962.927,"end":12967.068,"text":"所以希望說國科會你們要針對這樣的狀況是不是有建立一個審查排查的機制不僅就是說學術單位沒有開缺的這個問題其實產業界也是需要人才的那有人才的需求國科會更應該縫合我們的計畫的研究人才跟產業人才的這個落差讓我們這個人才可以延續上因為這些人才他們出入在哪裡他如果一直困在這些短期的研究計畫裡面他們的出入何在"},{"start":12992.472,"end":12993.473,"text":"主委,您對這個部分有什麼看法?"},{"start":13007.74,"end":13030.859,"text":"我蠻認同的我們接下來新的這一期的計畫我們會提醒申請的用人的單位如果國會補助的話我們當然是期待說我們用人單位要積極的來協助他使用的這些人才將來在生涯發展也要協助他們不要期限到就拼約結束就不管了希望他們也能夠積極協助"},{"start":13032.02,"end":13051.101,"text":"謝謝主委,您也是有意識到這個問題的存在所以這個部分希望說除了說有審計部對你們提出檢討之外你們本身對這個問題的產生為什麼有這樣的現象那有了這樣的現象之後如果去協助跟解決國科會你必須有一個機制是"},{"start":13052.418,"end":13059.464,"text":"接下來對於大南方計畫這邊就叫主委首先本席也要肯認主委在大南方計畫的目標針對AI的發展蓬勃不僅只是科技產業需要導入AI跟高科技的協助當然在本席的選區有很多傳產如果傳產的整個製程營運以及研發可以從AI的發展中得到注意本席相信說我們邁向智慧科技導這個速度會更快"},{"start":13079.62,"end":13106.396,"text":"所以本席也十分的支持國會提出的這個推出適合於百工百業的AI應用並且來發展系統性的應用服務為百工百業來服務但是本席還是要先關心一下就是在布拉格前進基地目前的狀況那媒體有報導說我們布拉格的IC設計的基地還沒有開始營運那本席請問之後呢都是說你們是在調整方向那想要了解一下說所謂調整方向"},{"start":13107.799,"end":13112.797,"text":"的內容跟我們到底什麼時候 這個基地可以開始提供培訓服務"},{"start":13113.669,"end":13141.579,"text":"我們因為5月剛接任的時候對這個合作的這個內容不是很清楚那再加上接下來又有捷克的那個選舉所以他們的那個政府的那個組織負責的這個人員也會有一些更替然後執行的單位包含那個大學端還有他們的政府的那個負責的這個部門之間也有一些不同的這個看法所以經過一段時間的"},{"start":13143.2,"end":13146.944,"text":"所以我們還沒有辦法知道說我們什麼時候可以提供培訓服務甚至說什麼時候可以有第一批的人才到台灣做進一步的學習其實服務已經開始了因為我們學界之間的這個互動"},{"start":13161.781,"end":13183.476,"text":"本來就不會因為政治但是政府的看法不一樣就是那個捷克的政府跟我們這邊因為還有牽涉到外交部我們整體的這個任性台姐任性計畫牽涉到好幾個部會國會現在負責的就是人才人才培育的部分那我們現在已經跟他們溝通到一個程度我認為在年底之前應該會定案"},{"start":13184.777,"end":13205.264,"text":"主委的意思是說在年底之前就有好消息其實本席一系列的這個問題都是聚焦在人才的培訓、延攬、留才以及育才所以希望說國會會這邊可以當人才培育的領頭羊既然我們看見國際的需求也了解到產業的困境那我們要輔導傳產進入智慧科技的這個領域也希望說智慧科技在台灣各產業各領域都能夠均衡的發展那延續剛剛提到的"},{"start":13210.406,"end":13218.333,"text":"114年國科會跨部會推動智慧科技大南方產業生態系推動方案那預計在5年會投入300億元的預算分成4大領域來推動但是其實在預算說明會上面國科會並沒有對系部的計畫及預算的使用說的詳細那這麼大規模的預算我相信民眾也會想知道說國科會你們在推動這個方案的規劃及內容"},{"start":13237.188,"end":13261.227,"text":"所以主委這個部分也要請你們多加說明因為你們只有在擴散力引人才練場域之後然後帶入展應用那其實對一般的民眾來講他們沒有辦法了解說你們講得這麼籠統到底你們是要做哪些那再來呢我要問的是說其中你們引人才的部分你們將串聯嘉義台南高雄的技職學校協助技職轉型"},{"start":13262.188,"end":13281.501,"text":"那其中參旅、健康照護都是優先推行的目標但是學界是有疑慮了那以往國科會你們就常常被詬病說你們是重科學情人文那這一次的人才培育計畫呢是不是又有可能將大量的資源依註到注重在生技、醫學這樣的項目而忽視了參與的部分那主委那針對這個部分呢國科會你們70億這個預算你們如何運用"},{"start":13290.512,"end":13314.719,"text":"我們其實是要協助百工百業所以不只是在科技提供的領域連需求端剛剛委員也有提到餐飲業、旅館業、休閒業等等這些其實都在我們將來要協助的範圍裡面希望能夠讓他們可以引進AI但是AI的提供端我們也會補助需求端我們也會補助"},{"start":13315.639,"end":13330.89,"text":"現在在學界一例就是說你們有沒有一個審查的機制你們未來的資源是不是會合理的分配或者是你們只是把產業框進來但是預算資源又沒有合理分配只是偏重某些的領域不會只偏重某些領域我們會全面性的來協助"},{"start":13332.251,"end":13360.75,"text":"謝謝主委所以本期希望國科會你們推動各項政策要落實產學溝通溝通真的非常重要尤其國科會你們這次將參與健康這個列為是AI科技推動的重點目標所以一定要針對產學合作這個需求來制定計劃才能夠創造產學雙贏的這個榮景這個部分不知道說主委你們有沒有領略到說學界他們的憂慮在哪裡焦慮在哪裡"},{"start":13362.791,"end":13368.312,"text":"主要就是我剛剛講的你們不能只是把產業框進來之後你們誘導資源偏重在某些領域這樣對這些學界也是不公平的好 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":13388.342,"end":13389.782,"text":"主席有請主委有請主委"},{"start":13410.905,"end":13439.3,"text":"主委好賴清哲總統選前程說要打造台灣為AI之島那我想請問您我們台灣成為AI之島做到了嗎或者是準備好了嗎我們開始在準備現在還沒有做到大概什麼時候你覺得在國科會跟行政團隊努力之下你可以就是很有信心的說台灣就是AI之島我們做到了"},{"start":13439.48,"end":13460.445,"text":"我相信我們在4年內就是賴總統執政的這段期間我們可以做到相當的程度讓台灣在這個AI的應用上面能夠在全世界的前半段那你所謂的4年內達標你的衡量指標是什麼"},{"start":13461.425,"end":13487.691,"text":"是希望我們大部分的行業都有使用AI工具的這樣的文化會出現我聽起來太抽象可不可以有一點具體的指標比如說剛剛前一位委員提醒的我們將來在推動智慧科技的方案的時候能夠讓這個應用到各行各業不是只有在現在科技業的使用而已"},{"start":13488.351,"end":13495.537,"text":"我這樣講好了,事實上我們現在明年總預算關於政府科技發展計畫編列1466億元那台灣AI行動計畫2.0也編了157.48億元可是"},{"start":13504.904,"end":13515.35,"text":"立法院預算中心報告指出我們AI排名及超級電腦的算力持續落後準備度更是亞洲四小龍墊底對這個成績你滿意嗎?"},{"start":13519.127,"end":13536.976,"text":"不滿意所以我們未來這幾年編的預算就會逐步來加強我們現在資料中心的建置還有超級電腦的這個建置然後發展相關的這個應用讓我們的這個擴散率AI應用的擴散率可以大幅的提升"},{"start":13538.397,"end":13565.271,"text":"非常謝謝主委有一些做法端的想法但我還是要回到一開始請教你的你有信心保證在賴清德總統任滿之前能夠實現AI指導這個目標我覺得恐怕要給自己更具體的一些衡量指標那我舉個例子預算中心報告指出AI準備度世界排名我們是下滑的到19名"},{"start":13567.292,"end":13584.913,"text":"總統賴清德剛上來﹖說下滑的責任是蔡英文﹖也不能怪她﹖這點我們要公道一點可是你剛剛已經講4年﹖我想請問您﹖4年後賴總統卸任的那一年﹖你有沒有辦法保證我們的AI準備度世界排行第一名"},{"start":13586.496,"end":13601.98,"text":"第一名不敢講,但是我相信我們可以進到全10名了好,非常好,大家記住這個我就喜歡我們主委的這個所謂的大氣所謂的那個目標的明確我們希望AI準備度可以從19名回到10名內這是我們的一個期許"},{"start":13606.441,"end":13621.654,"text":"另外我們攸關AI產業重心的超級電腦算力台灣排名抱歉也是下滑我還是同樣的這也不能怪賴清德總統剛上任要怪也是可以他終究過去是民進黨團隊議員也是曾經當過行政院院長"},{"start":13625.177,"end":13638.64,"text":"但是沒關係現在總算力是第17名請問主委4年內在總統卸任前你覺得我們台灣可以把總算力拼到第幾名你的目標"},{"start":13640.931,"end":13668.786,"text":"總算例啊對我們也希望能夠進到前10名進到前10名非常好雙前10名只有今天我跟主委的一個共識但是主委抱歉我對國科會有一點點沒那麼有信心對不對你們自己創建建制的台灣三二號下滑到106名如果國科會自己的業務你都到百名外了你跟我講四年後"},{"start":13670.463,"end":13692.428,"text":"說你要拚到10名內我想請教我們的主委我覺得你給我一點信心底氣好不好我這樣就顯得很沒信心啊好 既然委員這樣期許我們接下來我們4年會逐步增加我們的算力的建置資料中心希望委員要支持我們的預算不要看我們的預算"},{"start":13693.499,"end":13712.027,"text":"我跟主委說像新加坡在全球人工智慧準備度指數就是第一名我們在四小龍是排最後一名說真的其實蠻難看的當然現在亡羊補牢急起直追希望主委你可以當領頭羊謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員主委請回再來我們請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":13725.311,"end":13750.427,"text":"有請主委,謝謝主席請主委主委,我想要先謝謝國科會在我們去年質詢關於兒少科普的事情之後呢我們看到國科會在今年馬上就在Kids Science活動當中的一個系列再加上給小小孩的Kids Science這個兒童日那我自己當天也玩了非常多的"},{"start":13751.167,"end":13773.435,"text":"一站一站的闖關跟相關的攤位甚至我還在現場意外的遇到我的好朋友帶他們家小小孩真的就實際去參與這個活動我相信這個事情如果回到你的小時候你你怎麼來看身為一個小孩你怎麼來看像這樣子有趣而且是讓孩子們直接走進科學研究大樓到這個現場去體驗你如何看像這樣的活動對孩子的意義"},{"start":13774.395,"end":13795.513,"text":"可惜我出生的年代沒有國科會這樣的協助我真的會很高興他們從小就認識科學能夠帶給這個社會多麼有趣的一面然後能夠協助大家在生活各層面的發展我認為這個是很好的活動那也很謝謝陳委員長期對我們科普的支持"},{"start":13796.192,"end":13815.272,"text":"那我覺得就像你剛剛講的你小時候沒有國科會但是現在小孩長大有國科會給予這樣的支持所以我也很希望像這樣的活動一定要持續辦理甚至去討論擴大辦理的可能性那當然在不增加國科會工作壓力太多的情況之下我想我們就提出這樣的要求是不是主委這邊可以做個承諾"},{"start":13816.033,"end":13840.707,"text":"我承諾要做這件事那其實我們經費的編列也已經增加了在未來這幾年希望能夠擴大對我們全國的小朋友他在這個科學上面的認知能夠及早讓他們了解激發他們的這個興趣那將來他不管從事任何的行業有這種科學的基礎對他們在任何即使是人文領域都會很有幫助"},{"start":13841.187,"end":13865.341,"text":"這個我完全認同喔那這邊我看到處長也新上任的處長也已經在你的後面了這邊我想要問一下處長你有沒有印象在幾年前呢立法院其實有開了這個公聽會在2017年關於科技基本法修法的時候把科普入法的公聽會當時處長你也在你有印象在這個公聽會上其實我們有提出一個非常重要的觀點就是不管是科學教育科學轉譯科學傳播"},{"start":13867.202,"end":13886.72,"text":"其實應該都是重要的科普工具跟工作對不對這邊可不可以請處長回應一下之前您在這個公聽會上也有發言這樣是謝謝委員對我們希望說好的科學研究可以透過多層次的科學轉移讓一般的民眾可以更清楚的理解是"},{"start":13887.78,"end":13912.068,"text":"這個轉譯跟傳播其實也非常符合趙偉今天所訂的主題它其實是一個非常重要的政策溝通工具我們來看一下大家想到科普的時候真的就會想到我剛剛說包含我去參加那個活動叫科學教育活動但明明科學傳播跟知識轉譯其實也非常非常的重要但是在處長您新上任我想要跟您討論的我們如何去增加所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯"},{"start":13913.368,"end":13920.643,"text":"在國科會您的這個新上任之後你如何把這個視為是重要的政策方向我來分享一個網頁來我們往下看"},{"start":13923.177,"end":13943.584,"text":"這個FB有一個專頁叫怪奇事務所他會用非常有趣的動畫或是圖卡來跟很多小孩分享關於科學知識還有大家都非常熟悉的搞笑諾貝爾獎可能在很多非常嚴肅的科學家眼中看起來這不是一個好的科學研究但是他確實可能是一個很重要的入門專再來或是樹幹實驗室他們會把很多比較困難的知識視覺化、圖卡化作為很重要的溝通方法"},{"start":13950.386,"end":13957.694,"text":"讓更多人可以進入這個科學領域不知道處長跟主委你們怎麼看像這樣子的轉譯跟相關的傳播工具的可能性"},{"start":13960.81,"end":13983.079,"text":"科學傳播就是除了科學教育之外呢其實還要有很多樂趣可以吸引一般民眾的眼光所以像比如說委員這個戴雄的便便為什麼是方的其實這一位搞笑都非常得主現在是在清華大學動力機械系那他也在國科會的計畫邀請之下呢也到高雄的科工館"},{"start":13984.259,"end":14008.849,"text":"做了一場科普講座是死尿物理學這個是一個非常吸引的我相信所有的小孩聽到死尿這兩個字就會非常的開心也就是說我們大人可能覺得怎麼不要一天到晚講這個又是死又是尿但是如果這個興趣可以作為孩子們進入或是一般成人進入科學領域我相信非常重要的一件事情所以我們來看下一頁其實國科會都支持了非常多好的研究可是"},{"start":14009.449,"end":14021.916,"text":"可能真的缺了所謂的轉譯跟傳播所以事實上很多人並不知道有這些很棒的研究甚至是還有很多本地化的主題的研究也都沒有被看見我們真的覺得很可惜常常在很多公共電視新聞看過瞬間"},{"start":14024.637,"end":14038.639,"text":"更不要講公共電視它的收看率跟一般其他商業電視台的比較可能又更低所以我這邊是不是可以積極的提出回到今天的專案報告主題所謂的永續科研跟政策溝通到底我們要怎麼樣把我們的科研成果讓社會知道"},{"start":14039.961,"end":14068.786,"text":"我發現在國科會今年的永續科學學門專題研究我整理了這些我們來看一下它有台灣的廢水的問題地下水還有黑潮入侵還有新型態的海水與藻共生這麼多這麼多題目我們如何讓更多的公民知道台灣的科學家台灣的政府台灣的學者其實在非常多層面都非常努力回應到我剛剛說的科學轉譯跟科學傳播科學教育我覺得應該都會是非常重要的一部分"},{"start":14069.246,"end":14086.725,"text":"好下一頁所以這邊也要拜託國科會提醒國科會一樣是科學轉譯的研究其實這幾年台灣有中研院的顏值有物或者是民間有非常多出版社也會跟很多專家學者合作出版相關的書籍不管是師大或是台大或是中研院"},{"start":14087.165,"end":14109.915,"text":"都有很多跟民間合作的案例或者是他們自己也做了有趣的網站我想要說相關的傳播知識如果沒有有趣作為一個很重要的入門專這對很多人來說就是一個門檻那我自己的專業我會來看其實是整體對於知識編輯的這個角度來看這個事情所以這邊是不是有一個建議想要提出來給國科會主委跟新上任的處長作為參考我們來看一下"},{"start":14112.196,"end":14136.715,"text":"目前以科普為主出版為主的有所謂吳大游科普獎我相信兩位都知道還有國科會對於學校教授有相關的教案補助可是事實上我認為一個好的科普文或者是一個好的科普影片或是一個好用的科普網站如果沒有相對應的肯定方法給予他們相關的獎項相關的肯定對於這些在第一線做這些科普推廣"},{"start":14137.375,"end":14137.595,"text":"這個要求很具體對不對?"},{"start":14165.049,"end":14168.151,"text":"陳委員這個建議我們會納入考量因為按照剛剛的講法任何的改變需要請教我們這個專家我們請教過以後我們再研議一下看看"},{"start":14183.442,"end":14207.038,"text":"我覺得成立獎項的困難大概有幾個啦一就是誰可以當這個獎項的評審或者是什麼樣的轉譯方法或是創作方法值得被肯定他是來自於受眾的肯定還是來自專家學者圈的肯定我覺得這是兩個不同的意見的交集但是國科會如果可以擔任這個籌備的平台把大家的意見做成一個溝通然後有一個期間"},{"start":14207.619,"end":14216.62,"text":"我相信會有更多人願意投入所謂科學教育轉譯跟創作的這個行列那他也可以成為國科會非常重要的幫手對不對"},{"start":14217.671,"end":14242.56,"text":"是,好,謝謝委員的建議,我們會持續考慮那你不要只有持續考慮啦,因為我還有一些時間,所以我可以再多拜託一下如果不要持續考慮,更積極,我們可不可以先開相關會議來討論可能會遇到的困難可以,我們會邀請這個領域的專家學者我們來請教看看是不是好好的設計這樣的這個誘因這個誘因就是要鼓勵大家能夠投入嘛這是很正面的"},{"start":14243.34,"end":14272.239,"text":"這是獎項的部分,那我們辦公室也會繼續再跟國科會來開會討論好不好?好,謝謝陳委員那有了獎項之後我們再多要求一個啦就是產業交流平台喔事實上很多的產官學的交流其實對於很多議題的推進是非常重要我相信主委跟新的處長應該都很有感覺那目前呢在教育部有一個關於科學教育跟博物館的科普論壇但是我們有沒有辦法在國科會的支持底下辦一個關於科普內容創作者的交流論壇"},{"start":14273.54,"end":14291.53,"text":"作為回應這個時代有更多年輕人或是更多的創業家更多的知識工作者科學教育知識工作者他們願意用不同的方法投入所謂科學教育他不會只局限於到大學去教書他也不會只局限於進中小學教科學他其實在各行各業都有這個機會"},{"start":14292.671,"end":14322.363,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":14322.957,"end":14336.483,"text":"我們應該會找一些科普比較有經驗的前輩老師們大家一起來開會討論那甚至剛剛這張投影片裡面就是跟教育部的這個科普論壇其實也是有合作的機會謝謝"},{"start":14337.844,"end":14365.69,"text":"好,也就是說確實我們辦公室找了這麼多資料我們最在意的就是科普他必須要用不同的方法不同的時間點或是不同的形態被更多不在科學領域當中的人看見而且他們也願意參與其中我相信所有科學教育的普及絕對是這個時代的公民不能少的基本知識甚至我們在說不管是面對假資訊或者是面對詐騙面對更多判斷能力上需求我相信科學教育絕對不能缺席,對嗎?"},{"start":14365.69,"end":14365.75,"text":"主委"},{"start":14367.822,"end":14392.424,"text":"是的,同意委員所以我要再次感謝國科會關於兒童科普的努力我們也看到那個活動我們希望可以持續辦理剛剛主委你已經答應了那後續的獎項或者是這個論壇的平台我們也希望國科會可以積極的跟進在科普的科學轉譯或是相關的科學教育或是科普的傳播我覺得國科會可以有更多的角色跟努力好不好是,謝謝那我們也會跟國科會一起努力"},{"start":14393.484,"end":14402.37,"text":"好謝謝委員那我們就期待你們有相關進度我們辦公室也會持續追蹤謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝處長謝謝主席謝謝陳培育委員主委請回再來我們請賴世保委員質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請國共會的吳主委好吳主委請賴委員好主委您早"},{"start":14423.24,"end":14444.629,"text":"我記得上個禮拜我總質詢的時候提到說這個台灣的AI的相關的準備度了我們是亞洲四小龍最後一名你很霸氣的很快的講說兩年內要超過香港三年內要超過南韓請問你講這個話是"},{"start":14448.449,"end":14475.842,"text":"是有什麼依據的?你是現在公布的還是依據什麼來講一下基於我們過去在雲端資料中心以及這個超級電腦的建制就是比較投入沒有那麼多那在未來幾年我們的這個建制我們已經編列預算要逐年要增加我們的算力再加上我們現在新的這個那個方案"},{"start":14476.742,"end":14479.123,"text":"在加強我們AI的應用的部分我們也提出來了所以未來幾年台灣的這個AI沒有沒有一個推動計畫啦你剛才還回答了一個委員說這個在任內在未來的幾年要讓這個排名到前10名講這個東西你總是要有個計畫有個根據嘛阿不然就親自說說而已這樣"},{"start":14500.552,"end":14505.535,"text":"我還要預算編列完,剛要計畫編列完,各部會就會有執行單位來提計畫了你沒有說到我的重點,我的重點是說你憑什麼,你用什麼樣的niche說我可以到前10年"},{"start":14518.223,"end":14532.394,"text":"就是依照我們現在AI應用的普及度,現在還蠻低的但是我們未來4年還是很虛啦吼,你的答案就是向大家講說我錢就變下去了,一定會出來,這個成績就出來變成這樣,啊如果這麼簡單就錢就一直落得好啊,三千塊當然不是這樣聽不清楚啦"},{"start":14539.74,"end":14555.292,"text":"主委阿這樣聽不清楚齁好這個說起來你是比較傾向於我的感覺啦齁這個叫guts feeling齁現在公共兩內齁我們來看一下齁下一張我們來看一下今天喔電價審議委員會要審電價現在台電等於恐嚇全民齁準備工業用電要漲14%"},{"start":14566.656,"end":14582.361,"text":"而我們看到今天因為談AI啊有人講AI啊因為世界大廠的計算中心要在台灣設計算中心比如說Google就Google一年要耗掉8.4億度的電請問你啊你知道說我們國科會底下有科學園區嘛一年用幾億度的電你知道嗎"},{"start":14595.796,"end":14598.883,"text":"科學園區 報告委員我看看我們園區有沒有這個數字"},{"start":14604.141,"end":14620.673,"text":"我給你一個大約的數字一年台灣的用電量是2800億度台積電一加就超過10%所以你們大概幾百億度跟委員報告每一年112年總用電度是447億度幾百億度嘛幾百億度當然這個漲化算我們全年的總用電量2800億度"},{"start":14633.271,"end":14650.293,"text":"台積電一家超過10%所以台積電大概就300多億度左右所以以這樣來看的話這個對於科學園區當然用電的成本對他來講可能這些大廠可能不是很大的比例"},{"start":14651.394,"end":14667.055,"text":"我就請問你國科會的主委你是科學營區的主管的主管單位你會不會替這些的這些的大廠啊電子公司啊這高科技的會不會擔心他們的用電成本"},{"start":14668.716,"end":14691.801,"text":"我們在園區開發的時候對於這個電力的需求我們都會跟台電來商量協調那一定是確保電力的供應無虞的時候我們才會進行這個園區的開發跟建廠現在問題電解石的時期都沒考慮到計算中心啊沒考慮到AI啊現在有AI的廠了現在都有客戶"},{"start":14695.276,"end":14698.518,"text":"這部分要各方的評估,這是我想經濟部會審慎的來應應這樣的建議台山,那個山木的山,木山"},{"start":14722.052,"end":14744.097,"text":"臺山投資國會﹚他的國外基金投資的事成﹚在竹科建立了無人機的反制系統你知道嗎?你不知道嗎?因為老公的無人機老是來給我們干擾所以我們國科會這個好事情啊你都不知道我請南科局長"},{"start":14749.019,"end":14777.641,"text":"不是台三我們是有建置那個無人機反制的系統沒有我只是講說竹科有建置的其他的園區要不要也建置我就這個答案好不好都有喔那個超過30秒囉是不是主委之後能夠跟我們賴委員溝通好嗎或者是好啦你不用那麼緊張嘛因為我們剛剛都只有超過30秒要溝通這樣好啦這個無人機的反制系統不要只有在竹科啦其他的"},{"start":14778.773,"end":14778.933,"text":"主委請"},{"start":14800.678,"end":14823.016,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委我想跟你討論一下現在我們都很重視AI產業產業AI化AI產業化那在台南園區也就在我們的沙崙這個地方我們很開心就是說我們把重症能夠放在我們的沙崙但是我們更擔憂的是是不是"},{"start":14824.434,"end":14846.384,"text":"我們只有看到這樣的一個大計畫但是下面都是空的這是大家擔心的啊雖然在整個所謂的產業AI化AI產業化然後甚至把我們整個AI的運算資料中心建置在我們沙倫那周邊呢"},{"start":14848.561,"end":14857.629,"text":"在周邊呢他如果配套他的配套如果真的結合到南方產業的生態系可以促成我們這樣的一個大計畫"},{"start":14859.915,"end":14884.705,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們在沙倫的投資包含資料中心、超級電腦的建置以及我們相關的研發的工作包含在地區也有經濟部工研院還有在隔壁1區中央研究院再來就是成大這個是現在?"},{"start":14886.886,"end":14887.226,"text":"對,我就是要把這幾個"},{"start":14904.568,"end":14931.143,"text":"幾個已經建置好的區域真正把產業發展的能量帶進來AI應用的產業帶進來但是我們現在目前看到的你的計畫就是建置AI運算資料中心這個是只是一個工建計畫而已工建計畫對,我們還有那個運用的這個計畫預計呢?那你的預算跟期程進度怎麼抓?預算那個"},{"start":14935.134,"end":14957.974,"text":"我們現在預計114年到118年我們預計總體我們希望投入360億元的經費那剛剛有提到那個鏈廠域的部分還有展應用的部分其實大概都有一些相關的規劃了那我們現在預算就在明年因為現在要省了嘛在明年我們已經框了多少預算"},{"start":14960.404,"end":14965.263,"text":"在明年114年是我們的第一期第一年的預算"},{"start":14970.07,"end":14989.28,"text":"明年應該是第一年,第一年我們的工件預算會比較少我知道,因為在你一定說的計畫但是我的意思是說,你一定要先進去啊但是我們的平台,就是整合軟硬體做應用的這個平台明年就會先建置了然後就會把這個應用的人才會集中起來,把產業界帶進來"},{"start":14996.524,"end":15012.399,"text":"那這個時候我們編載這個經濟部數位發展部的這個預算會比較多所以會把那個需求端我知道這一次這個計畫是國科會跟數位部還有經濟部然後經濟部你們三方去做整個"},{"start":15013.2,"end":15014.121,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":15034.935,"end":15055.706,"text":"可是總是要讓人家有感阿!是!是!我們的態度跟我們的決定從我們第一期預算是看得出來的喔!是!那我們現在正在準備那個細節我們在年底之前就會讓大家都知道我們明年開始所有的一些工作的細項都會展開來我麻煩把這樣的一個計畫內容的預算我們要看到預算因為現在大家擔心的是"},{"start":15065.049,"end":15087.781,"text":"我們的計畫講得很好聽然後講得很偉大沒有經費不行對但是裡面是空的沒有經費那你又怎麼辦那如果沒有經費大家就會覺得說那今天只是一個平台嗎如果只是一個平台動不了人才也沒辦法進來沒有人才你怎麼做是不是人才很重要啊"},{"start":15088.661,"end":15110.562,"text":"那你要整合雖然我們今天看到的是國科會我們看到的是數位部我們看到的是經濟部我們很多的預算還分別都在他們的部會裡面有做了編列我也知道可是我們怎麼把它整合起來讓大家有感這才是我們要去追的我們希望"},{"start":15111.536,"end":15131.026,"text":"不要口號AI產業化產業AI化我們也希望真的所有的預算要趕快到位而且希望能夠在我們預算的編列當中趕快過謝謝大家謝謝委員謝謝陳庭菲委員主委請回再來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝召委我們請主委"},{"start":15144.81,"end":15144.851,"text":"主委請"},{"start":15150.174,"end":15175.067,"text":"楊委員好主委好學術研究大家非常清楚它是非常需要長期規劃跟穩健資源投入的工作因此政策的連貫性更是學術發展的一個重要的基礎但是最近學界傳出了國科會要將資料科學永續研究發展處"},{"start":15176.167,"end":15177.588,"text":"主委,您的看法呢?"},{"start":15195.168,"end":15197.331,"text":"為什麼吳峰會有浪呢?"},{"start":15214.293,"end":15236.925,"text":"內部出了什麼事情呢?而且跟你的回答跟你的作為是完全180度的,為什麼?是,我當然就不會去違反現在永續的發展是人類...謝謝主委你這麼說我就放心,但是我們反觀喔因為國會會在我們的國家來講我非常的重視跟尊重"},{"start":15238.365,"end":15260.119,"text":"為什麼會有這樣無風會起浪?朱太南你知道原因是什麼嗎?因為你是主委啊?可能是因為內部有一些想法想要改善協助這幾個領域的發展有些想法可是還沒有溝通就被散出去了所以引起學界的擔心你要不要管控一下?"},{"start":15260.939,"end":15266.921,"text":"所以我們未來會改善就是跟學界溝通的方式將來會有一個更完善的機制答非所問本席要提的是你內部的管控而不是你跟學界的溝通"},{"start":15290.127,"end":15292.969,"text":"內部的管控也會一併做,謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":15320.188,"end":15337.21,"text":"是嗎?所以這個題目你的回答是說你內部會出現這樣吳峰會起浪的你會去管控那麼同時也會跟相關的人好好去做溝通 是不是如此那這些不會做調整"},{"start":15338.071,"end":15358.1,"text":"還是尋訓永續的一個項目、方針、議題對不對?要不然大家很害怕還好你這麼回答因為大家很害怕我做了一半那沒有了那前功盡棄了浪費了而且我未來還有什麼樣子要做結果也沒有答案這樣子是不好的對不對?所以還是維持原來的步調"},{"start":15359.28,"end":15384.527,"text":"好 所以請社會大眾放心那麼我們根據最新的決勝報告裡頭你的111年到112年你每一年會編列20億執行這個優秀的科技人才跟研究學者但是我們看到其中178位的博士級的研究人員已經連續性的10到22次不等但是他得到了補助他並沒有去投入產業界或者是學界的任務"},{"start":15385.607,"end":15396.158,"text":"這一個任職那大家會有疑慮已經從10次到20次都一樣的人但是他沒有成效外界認為成效不彰你的說法呢"},{"start":15397.177,"end":15422.603,"text":"謝謝委員提醒少數執行單位有一些疏漏的地方我們現在我們在下一期的計畫裡面會提醒他們如果申請國會這樣的補助希望他們也對於這些人才將來生涯的發展也能夠進行協助不希望再有這種狀況發生不希望再有這種狀況我敬佩你有這個gas但是你的KPI必須要出來"},{"start":15423.764,"end":15444.764,"text":"你設定好你書面資料給本席好不好最後一個議題請教我們從110年到114年我們將近有17億的預算你新增了223個機櫃空間但是只有真正被租用的只有81個所以你的使用率大概是36%左右在這樣的情況之下有人說"},{"start":15445.985,"end":15471.041,"text":"這是國科會的科技文字館我聽了很難過我聽了很難過所以請教你要怎麼樣讓智慧國家不是一場空要怎麼做這個機櫃空的部分應該是預計要在逐年編約預算要再買設備進來它只是空的櫃子而已因為我們建這個資料中心的時候你現在租的只有81櫃嘛"},{"start":15472.862,"end":15472.882,"text":"謝謝委員：謝謝"},{"start":15496.201,"end":15511.705,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員還有那個主委請回提醒一下主委就您答應的事情彼此之間不要有矛盾因為剛才說不會秋後算帳所以什麼內部管控這個都是幫忙協助救火等等該檢討的部分就檢討我提醒一下召委"},{"start":15519.919,"end":15525.302,"text":"主委,你辛苦了,你有沒有吃便當?我吃了你的便當OK,辛苦了"},{"start":15545.773,"end":15568.167,"text":"因為這件事情很重要所以還是特別跑來就是上個禮拜五我在總質詢那個卓院長應該你有在場有聽到這個在95天台灣就進入超高齡社會那國科會在這件事情上面扮演非常關鍵的角色所以我希望跟你溝通一下"},{"start":15571.645,"end":15595.59,"text":"今天我們的主題是永續永續的科技、永續環境這件事情也是永續聯合國健康高齡10年行動裡面也列為這是國家的一個永續目標高齡化的一個社會那不只是醫療照護啦其實涵蓋的面向是全面性的我想博客會也了解"},{"start":15597.773,"end":15624.615,"text":"但是很可惜我們的卓院長在做施政報告的時候仰仰傻傻好幾萬字竟然沒有出現這五個字超高齡社會那這個就讓人太震驚了這件被稱為是國安問題影響到全面性的人口大翻轉的事情顯然現在還沒有進入我們政府的腦袋裡面"},{"start":15625.856,"end":15640.427,"text":"因為我想這個應該也是經過很多的討論經過各部門的一個集思廣益匯集出來竟然把一個在眼前的事情沒有提都沒提到沒有等一下那個然後當然這個"},{"start":15643.356,"end":15664.529,"text":"現在高齡者憂鬱症,國會院所做的憂鬱症這問題也蠻嚴重的這不僅是身體健康、四肢發達心理上面的問題也蠻多心理通常是社會性的問題社會結構性非常廣甚至是文化歧視各個方面的問題"},{"start":15667.165,"end":15681.894,"text":"那這個衛福部的高齡健康裡面的研究這個是整理他們所研究報告裡面的一些數據可以看得出來都還是偏重在照顧肋齡疾病上面的關注"},{"start":15684.485,"end":15706.379,"text":"我不曉得那國科會當然在這裡扮演很多的科技資源的角色但是我一直很就是我們了解現在真正的所謂的壯世代高齡者55歲以上的人這個龐大的人龐大的人口他們真正的需求嗎真真的是只是現在左邊的這一些項目嗎"},{"start":15708.663,"end":15737.288,"text":"好 這個在去年國科會針對政府高齡科技所提出來的一些對策架構的主張雖然有些地方也都有提到的產業的產業面向也蠻多的但是可以看出來所謂的生活場域也就是消費者在使用的情境當中都不外乎"},{"start":15738.783,"end":15745.417,"text":"繞著醫院、養老院、藥局、公園運動、樂齡宅、樂齡大學、藝文中心的小圈子在轉"},{"start":15747.86,"end":15770.594,"text":"科技只是這個普惠科技只是要解決讓在這個小圈子轉的時候能夠更便利那如果這是我們的國家的高齡政策這個真的這個叫做國安問題這些事情能夠解決我們的國安問題嗎所以我現在想要來問一下這個主委"},{"start":15772.987,"end":15797.686,"text":"國科會在主導我們高齡科技產業的這個行動計畫其實現在很多的研究依照的包括認知的資料庫都是過時的包括我們現在很多的法令好了45歲在我們政府裡面稱為中高齡現在一定45歲很多人都還沒結婚"},{"start":15799.376,"end":15816.746,"text":"平均年齡結婚之後變成中高齡準備代退那這就一個舊資料嘛 對不對65歲法定老人你現在65歲的都是社會的主幹很多所以這些都是過時的"},{"start":15818.234,"end":15818.454,"text":"請問主委你覺得這樣子會不會"},{"start":15837.552,"end":15856.013,"text":"能解決他的問題嗎?高齡化社會問題我其實同意委員的意見就是我們未來的研究特別是對民眾福祉健康的部分要促進的話一定是全年齡層來考慮不能只針對少數的族群當然是全年齡層"},{"start":15857.495,"end":15858.456,"text":"你知道再過10年台灣一般人口超過50歲嗎?"},{"start":15882.211,"end":15891.721,"text":"2034年一半50%的人超過所以未來的社會是以高齡者為主主要架構的社會你現在的整個科學技術有在考慮這一點嗎"},{"start":15893.191,"end":15919.819,"text":"有,現在其實我們在賴總統現在健康台灣的這個願景之下所以呢你知道我們其實有加重國發會每年8月會公布每兩年會公布一次我們的人口數據今年的該公布的拖到現在還沒有公布你知道原因嗎我不知道你不知道原因喔就是變得更加嚴重更加嚴重所以呢我們的人口"},{"start":15920.799,"end":15921.94,"text":"國科委最擅長的就是AI"},{"start":15941.255,"end":15968.058,"text":"那AI最重要的是不是資料庫那資料庫你知道這個data裡面嚴重的缺乏壯世代的足跡55歲以上人的足跡在我們的AI data裡面比例非常不成比例的減少這些人占人口的三分之一700多萬人掌握台灣三分之二財富是現在重要最主要的決策者公司機構的領導人都是壯世代但是這些人的"},{"start":15968.899,"end":15969.78,"text":"主委有沒有什麼解決方案?"},{"start":15984.671,"end":16010.921,"text":"如果這個數據慢慢再改變的話我們在資料的收集我剛剛有提到說我們全年齡層都要當然如果在55歲以上的人口的比重增加當然資料也要想一些方法啦因為我們社會都是依靠這些AI的數據來做決策啦但是這個決策當中嚴重的把這一些三分之一的人而且社會主力排除在外這個我們會確認一下"},{"start":16013.262,"end":16037.593,"text":"所以你要去確認好不好我在中研院討論過這個議題大家啞口無言顯然沒有對策但是這問題太嚴重了啦是是我同意這個比重增加了好不好那如果想要怎麼樣讓調整比那個資料更正確反映我們的社會真實現象嘛所以呢為什麼要談這件事情我們今天的社福預算已經超過8300億這8300億"},{"start":16041.755,"end":16054.24,"text":"當然是社會有沒有辦法解決這個人口我問院長院長沒有答案現在就是只能我們15%的需要長照需要施能的但是大量的這800萬的85%的需要發展性"},{"start":16057.981,"end":16070.997,"text":"如果你沒有做這樣的話他就會變成人口土石流大量的高齡者高齡者的人口如果他按照我們現在臥床8年的話未來整個都垮掉了啦現在三兆預算都沒辦法解決這個問題啦所以呢"},{"start":16074.12,"end":16082.947,"text":"現在政府應該要怎麼樣當然是雙軌制嘛照護性發展性減少他的人這個你認同嘛但是呢國科會我詢問過發文詢問過有沒有觀眾是在編列預算貴單位回復本113年度無編列55歲以上的族群預算"},{"start":16095.216,"end":16095.956,"text":"我現在提醒你要去重視好不好"},{"start":16123.405,"end":16143.339,"text":"所以,現在有很多的新資料有需要因為你是國家在這方面的政策科技政策所以,麻省理工學院有AGE Lab聯名實驗室我們國家應該需要這樣子你所認知的高齡者他的需求我們國家資料缺乏所以,最後一個請求"},{"start":16144.48,"end":16162.717,"text":"就是國科會可不可以成立HLAB年齡層 針對這一群 這個是三分之一人口社會主力也非常重要的 這裡解決了年輕人的問題才有辦法解決兒童問題才解決 因為他掌握台灣三分之二財富 是台灣很重要你認他"},{"start":16163.217,"end":16183.647,"text":"倒下來就又要跑來下一代所以在我們8月12日開的這個壯實的公聽會國科會也有出席然後也回應了這一些對認同的HLB應該可以去全面更寬廣的方面的這一個表達這樣的意見請問國科會還是持續這樣子的結論嗎如果我們的學術界"},{"start":16197.057,"end":16211.612,"text":"主委,您覺得這件事情重要嗎?重要啊現在就是我們明年叫做超高齡社會元年這件事情國科會在這邊扮演重要角色我們是不是可以把那個平衡一下"},{"start":16212.674,"end":16223.809,"text":"我講的就平衡一下去做發展性的這一些可能數據很多都要更新所以可不可以請國科會可以提出這樣子的一個有關於這一方面工作的一個計畫"},{"start":16226.388,"end":16248.628,"text":"這個計畫我們都存在,我們鼓勵學術界相關的研究可以提出來因為我們這邊做了很多的研究,但是都沒有辦法上達所以如果你都已經做很多研究,是不是一個月之內可以給我這樣的計畫或者是召集我們這些專家學者跟你們來看一下好,謝謝委員"},{"start":16252.371,"end":16252.811,"text":"主委請回陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":16277.034,"end":16295.579,"text":"蔣委員好主委好主委辛苦了那主委您應該知道說我們這個賴慶德總統的幾個重要的產業的發展他的白皮書裡面都有提到次世代的通訊那特別說要強化這個權欲通訊網路的韌性這個部分主委應該清楚嗎是其中有包含"},{"start":16297.139,"end":16307.327,"text":"也不限於六級關鍵技術的研發：然後還有通訊衛星的：還有地面設施：還有低軌衛星等等 這個都是在國歌會的這個管轄範圍嗎"},{"start":16315.786,"end":16328.26,"text":"臺灣目前不是國際電信聯盟的成員我想請教這對我們自主發展的第一軌道衛星的相關通訊計畫還有它的發射階段可能造成的困難我可不可以打算如何克服"},{"start":16329.542,"end":16341.737,"text":"你說通信衛星的部分還有這個火箭發射嗎我說在我們不是國際電信聯盟的成員會不會造成這些方面的影響那打算要怎麼樣克服"},{"start":16344.008,"end":16364.216,"text":"不會因為我們這整個通訊產業台灣從以前這個無線通訊從2G開始我們都有一直不斷的在參與這些通訊標準的制定的會議因為這個沒有牽涉到政治所以未來從現在5G一直到6G的這個討論我們還是會持續關注持續參加相關的這個會議"},{"start":16370.979,"end":16389.477,"text":"那國際電信聯盟的成員參加與否是不是成員不會影響到我國的太空產業的發展?不會影響因為他們一定是希望藉助台灣的這個硬體的實力來協助整個全世界相關產業的發展所以他們不會把台灣排除在外好的但是我們不是他的國際成員"},{"start":16390.658,"end":16414.09,"text":"所以是不是國際成員也不會被排除在沒有影響就對了沒有關係是好謝謝謝謝這個部分謝謝您的回應那第二個部分關於這個次世代通訊裡面國防部其實有成立一個國防創新小組那在他們的這個國防部的給我們的這個匯報裡面還有資訊裡面他說你有聽過這個國防創新小組嗎我先請教一下主委"},{"start":16415.356,"end":16435.914,"text":"講的是那個DIU對是是有有那他說他還會跟你們成立部會平台然後定期會議你們已經有開始這樣子的磋商了嗎目前有一個學演合作的這個機制有學演合作的機制對不對那所以說這樣的創新單位你們會跟他一起合作不會有跨部會對話的問題"},{"start":16438.308,"end":16457.682,"text":"目前已經有一個平台是由我跟紀政委共同主持所以我們在有7個大學有成立這個學院中心來協助國防部那邊提出來的一些發展的需求由學術界來進行這個研究目前是這個機制存在"},{"start":16458.502,"end":16476.773,"text":"我們是希望這個不可有不會的本會主義那既然國科學現在已經有這樣子的平台那我們這樣交叉比對後確實有那不是他們只有給我們的官方文章那我就很希望說這個是未來的重要項目因為美國的這個DIU它其實是有包含"},{"start":16477.293,"end":16477.473,"text":"提供訪問"},{"start":16492.777,"end":16507.589,"text":"所以我認為國防部不可以把它當成是國防部它跟國會之間的結合甚至是你們自己本身的參與度我也是希望能夠再加強我不希望它成為一個只是國防就講國防科技講科技它其實是兩個重要有重疊的部分"},{"start":16511.428,"end":16537.361,"text":"太空中心我們談一下剛才我記得陳立芬委員講到他們台南的部分那我們要講一下我們嘉義的部分在嘉義我們是由中科院主導的這個民雄的航太園區那當然雖然說中科院跟國防部的關係比較密切但是除了這個無人機的產業之外還有一個部分就是跟太空產業有相關的那太空產業還是一樣還是需要整合的測試功能"},{"start":16538.421,"end":16565.378,"text":"在這個由中科院主導的地方他們是有一些相關的一些設備比方說風動與動力的測試陣燄能量的這個相關的這種的基礎建設結構測試能量還有AI模擬算力中心但是那是在他的東側基地那當然這不是由你們的部會所主導的但是其實它裡面跟太空中心跟航太產業還是有關聯性的我想請教一下未來國科會有沒有辦法"},{"start":16566.198,"end":16566.798,"text":"會否有這樣的想法?"},{"start":16583.49,"end":16586.051,"text":"最後再補一句話不管是基礎建設還在仿商的階段"},{"start":16601.998,"end":16615.912,"text":"當然不是只有無人機的需求而已我們希望航太的產業還是能夠扮演一定的角色那航太它的這個太空的產業太空中心我們還是希望能夠積極的來去介入謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":16618.639,"end":16632.702,"text":"主委請回,謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢再來是邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員鄭正前委員請謝謝召委,我想要請一下吳主委吳主委請"},{"start":16649.167,"end":16676.328,"text":"政委員好吳主委好,因為已經到中午吃飯時間很久了我發現大家沒有休息所以我一定會很精簡而且不會拖時間那我想說第一個我想問一下因為我從媒體這邊看到說我們上半年營收非常的好三個科學園區那將近就是2.2兆嘛那你預估全年的部分會到達4.5兆你是用什麼樣的基礎覺得下半年會比上半年更好"},{"start":16677.068,"end":16692.009,"text":"因為半導體產業一般來講下半年的營收會比上半年高所以我大概就是根據這個合理的估計現在這個AI的需求還在成長當中所以我也做了這樣一個"},{"start":16694.172,"end":16717.986,"text":"只是預測而已我們看了科學領域這麼高的一個產值當中的時候半導體的部分佔的比例非常的高佔據非常高的一個比重我相信我這邊我就不講可是我在想說其實相關的產業這邊也一直提到一個狀態就是說在整個半導體產業當中的時候我們要建立一個半導體生態系裡面"},{"start":16719.227,"end":16733.918,"text":"可是我們科學園區都是這些台積電這些主要的廠商可是它的協力廠商進不了科學園區所以事實上以在新竹這個環境來講的時候就會有很多農地就會被用來當工廠使用"},{"start":16734.258,"end":16750.606,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":16750.706,"end":16751.907,"text":"主委回答一下"},{"start":16767.955,"end":16790.981,"text":"好,那個政委員這個建議其實是非常好啦那我們未來也是陸續在協助台積電的協力廠商包含他的供應鏈甚至他的客戶能夠在我們未來科學園區選擇新的這個發展的地區也能夠進駐到科學園區這是第一點第二點我們也鼓勵各縣市"},{"start":16791.581,"end":16791.621,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":16818.388,"end":16818.849,"text":"現在還沒有完全劃定出來"},{"start":16839.107,"end":16863.5,"text":"但是在桃竹苗這幾個縣市我們都會積極來配合地方政府有適當的這個場域來協助地方政府來發展依照產業的需求好那另外就是在這部分的時候因為你剛剛提到說今年整個我們科學園區產值可能會突破4.5兆那我想特別提到一個點就是有關於科學管理"},{"start":16864.821,"end":16864.981,"text":"主委"},{"start":16894.111,"end":16918.279,"text":"我先請竹科我們竹科管理局局長來回答一下委員好那因為我們雖然規定是千分之0.3但是也要看我們的那個營收因為我們最近開發營收都很高因為我們現在每一年都只有一半的一半不到我們現在去年都只有千分之0.06對但是我們有我們的那個成本"},{"start":16922.02,"end":16948.956,"text":"所以我們這幾年因為開發的關係我們也持續在借款所以我們除了這個正常的補助之外我們都透過一些專案性的那如果有特別的需要然後我們衡量以後有一些專案性的我們會來也一直在進行當中因為這部分的時候我在想說跟我們陳局長這邊的時候看是不是有可能提高一個金額因為4620萬已經很多年了一二十年都是這個數字"},{"start":16950.888,"end":16951.789,"text":"主委請回,謝謝鄭振淺委員,翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":16982.694,"end":16982.996,"text":"邀請吳主委"},{"start":16991.228,"end":17018.229,"text":"主委好您辛苦了我這次看到您的業務報告裡面最後一段裡面有特別提到國科會未來要將各學門的機制更加健全尤其是在學門召集人審查委員的臨選計畫審查機制等等這邊可能必須要做想要做一個經濟改善我想請教主委就是說您知道"},{"start":17018.969,"end":17031.842,"text":"以您現在擔任主委這段時間裡面大概為什麼會今天特別提到學門的問題是有發現這過程當中是有什麼值得改進的地方嗎?"},{"start":17033.364,"end":17057.901,"text":"我是因為這一次有聯署的議題在永續學門我是在想說國科會本身自己要健全我們自己的機制公開公正公平這樣的機制然後剛剛范召偉也提醒我在任何改變之前要請教專家各學門各領域的專家"},{"start":17063.525,"end":17065.727,"text":"您知道基本上國科會本身就有一個計畫審查機制及審查委員領選作業要點嗎?"},{"start":17081.963,"end":17093.511,"text":"您知道這個要點嗎?您知道這個要點裡面基本上他有講到說要怎麼樣去領選學門召集人、共同召集人跟副省委員他裡面有考慮到哪幾個因素,您知道嗎?有考慮到什麼?"},{"start":17096.212,"end":17123.889,"text":"必須要考慮到哪些因素啦?其實我的PVT上面有秀出來了對,基本上就是要考慮到學門的領域、地域、各公司力、機構及性別的衡評規定我不知道國科會內部自己過去有沒有做過這樣的一個統計分析到底我們現在的學門召集人大多數是來自於哪些學校然後性別比例是如何?"},{"start":17124.95,"end":17129.992,"text":"有沒有做過這樣子的一個評估?有做過這樣的統計嗎?應該是說我們每一年的學門召集人都有留意到這些性別的地域跟公私力機構的橫屏"},{"start":17142.042,"end":17147.166,"text":"好OK看起來你們可能並沒有做一個整體的統計來下一頁那我幫你們做了統計了我現在調查2016年到2023年國科會的學人以人設學門為例我們做了一個統計表但事實上因為我們在檢視國科會各學門的召集人的時候但發現確實有嚴重"},{"start":17169.241,"end":17192.023,"text":"的偏差的一個情況比如說我們以人文社會學門的召集人的來源機構為例大家可以看從這個圖表就可以看得很清楚最多的召集人就來自於臺灣大學中研院然後接下來師大政大成大等等以下而且他的佔的比率非常之高"},{"start":17193.342,"end":17216.479,"text":"在圖寫出一個什麼問題你們這邊有講說要兼顧到各學門然後公私立機構的這個衡評顯然是沒有好那接下來下一頁那我們再看到就是說在整個人文學門裡面有哪幾個學門又特別的嚴重法律學門幾乎所有的這個法律學門的召集人都是台大的教授所掌握那麼如果是歷史學門的話"},{"start":17222.119,"end":17223.709,"text":"全數都是中研院的學者"},{"start":17225.762,"end":17252.904,"text":"科學與多元族群學門則是由臺灣師範大學所掌握還有財塊等等這個部分的話我希望國科會能夠去做一個統計分析好嗎接下來再看下一頁然後我們如果說以地域來看會發現這些召集人都來自於北部的學校或研究機構在了75%東部到現在為止沒有出現半個學門召集人"},{"start":17254.346,"end":17281.188,"text":"這當然是以人設學門為例啦這個我相信在其他的工程學門也都是一樣的好來下一頁如果說以性別為例的話以性別做分析就可以知道在人門人設學門裡面的召集人當中女性大概只有三分之一三分之二都是男性教授或是男性的這個知名的學者為主在工程學門裡面的話召集人幾乎百分之百都是男生"},{"start":17282.751,"end":17287.197,"text":"這個部分的話其實可以看得出來我們雖然說國科會有這樣的一個省常委員臨選作業要點可是事實上在過去這些年來並沒有按照你們所講的這些要點裡面強調橫評原則去做"},{"start":17297.611,"end":17317.912,"text":"所以我本席在這裡提出來我希望國科會能夠提出一個完整的報告分析書那另外呢我也發現就說你們其實國科會也並沒有做好政府資訊公開我希望能夠未來將各個學門通過的補助的名單還有有多少深附案這些"},{"start":17319.534,"end":17320.694,"text":"徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員"},{"start":17349.817,"end":17367.355,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員張家俊張家俊張家俊委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員游浩游浩游浩委員"},{"start":17368.891,"end":17386.081,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有遊浩委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":17387.222,"end":17402.573,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關競速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位謝謝大家今天開學第一天比較辛苦了好謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:19 - 13:22:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}