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MANGA"},{"start":1504.326,"end":1516.798,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1587.082,"end":1588.333,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1860.964,"end":1873.461,"text":"好我們現在會議開始我們請總命報告出席人數報告全體會本會委員出席是4位已足法定人數好現在進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事記錄"},{"start":1876.397,"end":1892.692,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第1次全體委員會議．事入．時間113年9月25日星期三上午9時2分至9時22分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員鄭天才委員等14人主席邱委員議員"},{"start":1894.173,"end":1918.759,"text":"報告事項一一立法院各委員會組織法第三條之四規定立法院各委員會至召集委員二人由各委員會委員與每會期互選產生二宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉立法院第11屆第二會期本會召集委員一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五條規定召集委員之選舉以五計民單計法"},{"start":1920.979,"end":1940.397,"text":"票選之但經各該委員會全體委員或經各黨團及未參加黨團之該委員會委員之書面同意亦得以推選方式行之主席宣告推選呂委員玉玲及邱委員志偉二人為本院第11屆第2會期本會召集委員散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1945.953,"end":1947.914,"text":"委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1966.609,"end":1992.902,"text":"首先中央氣象署今天持續的宣布中度颱風山頓海上路上颱風的警報請大家做好充足的防颱準備照顧好自己也保護好家園謝謝大家本日議程排定公平會公平交易委員會的業務報告現在請李主委報告"},{"start":2002.16,"end":2025.66,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進以及公平會的同仁大家早安我今天很榮幸能夠代表公平交易委員會來經濟委員會向各位提出業務報告在這裡也同時要謝謝我們經濟委員會長期以來對公平交易法業務的支持以下我請就公平會近期重要的業務報告來向各位"},{"start":2026.28,"end":2050.09,"text":"做簡單的說明第一點是執法維護市場競爭秩序公平會的主要任務是依據公平交易法以及多層次傳銷管理法來查處業者違法的行為並且追蹤後續的改正情形來確保市場的競爭秩序那近期查獲的違法案件包括我們處分土木基石工會等聯合訂定收費標準全聯違反"},{"start":2053.171,"end":2053.411,"text":"請各位參考書面報告"},{"start":2073.315,"end":2087.902,"text":"第二點是審查結合的申報案件依據公平交易法的規定超過一定門檻的結合案件必須要向公平交易委員會提出申報我們近期審查的重要案件包括禁止"},{"start":2088.462,"end":2089.723,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2115.814,"end":2116.054,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2137.288,"end":2165.261,"text":"第三點是重視數位經濟及永續發展我們都知道數位經濟跟永續發展是全球經濟發展的兩大潮流我們在前年發布數位經濟競爭政策白皮書完整的論述在數位經濟發展下執法機關應有的執法方向以及立場這份白皮書被國際知名的競爭法出版商評選為最佳反托勞斯寫作獎也是亞洲唯一的"},{"start":2166.121,"end":2166.361,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2184.84,"end":2210.703,"text":"第4點是完備競爭法次為了完備競爭法規我們持續檢討主管的法規近期已經完成多層次傳轄案件的處理原則事業發展侵害著作權商標權以及專利權的警告函處理原則以及終止調查案件的處理原則等等的修正作業也嚴密修正公平交易法來提升本會的執法效能"},{"start":2211.644,"end":2233.706,"text":"第5點是查查不實廣告為了有效規制網路的不實廣告我們一直持續的在辦理網路廣告的查查計畫而且與內政部衛生福利部等相關廣告主管機關一起合作來打擊不實的廣告維護交易秩序保護消費者的權益另外我們也持續"},{"start":2235.268,"end":2248.943,"text":"強化不實廣告的規範宣導工作：定期跟各地方機關政府辦理不實廣告的法規案例宣導說明會 增進業者以及民眾對不實廣告的規範的瞭解"},{"start":2249.924,"end":2271.573,"text":"第6推廣競爭文化．近期重要的倡議工作．包括辦理克制化的公平交易法．對業者量身定做．辦理各種講習跟交流．同時我們也辦理產業宣導說明會．與法官學院合作辦理法官研習會．"},{"start":2273.293,"end":2284.94,"text":"頒禮大專院校的合作宣導活動也持續發行電子報提供服務中心法律諮詢服務以及發布新版的認識公平交易法"},{"start":2286.141,"end":2294.783,"text":"第7點是主辦大型的國際研討會公平會在今年6月主辦2024年臺灣競爭政策及競爭法國際研討會總計有國內外競爭法學者專家超過200個人參加這會場這個非常的盛大熱烈的交流也獲得來賓的肯定"},{"start":2310.796,"end":2324.104,"text":"另外經過公平會不斷的努力我們建個10年再次成功的舉辦今年在臺北主辦國際競爭網絡也就是ICN的結合研討會這個研討會將會在11月舉辦預計會邀請全球的ICN會員政府機關跟非政府機關200位參加"},{"start":2339.754,"end":2351.787,"text":"深化國際的參與競爭法的政策跟執法是非常具有國際性的為了使本會的施政能夠符合國際趨勢而且強化我們跟全球執法的脈動連結我們向來積極參與國際組織的活動"},{"start":2356.572,"end":2374.646,"text":"：推動雙邊交流合作：為了向國際展現我們對於競爭法國際交流的重視：我個人今年也親自率團參加第23屆的ICN年會：擔任報告人展現我國公平交易法的執法成效：同時也親自出席第19屆東亞競爭政策高峰會議第16屆"},{"start":2379.63,"end":2407.525,"text":"東亞競爭法與競爭政策會議其他重要的國際參與情形請各位參閱我們的書面報告那以上是我簡單的針對近期公平會的業務做簡要的說明也敬請各位委員繼續給本會支持與指導以上報告謝謝好現在我們會場有兩位委員請問委員上次會議意思錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2409.196,"end":2409.656,"text":"有請主委"},{"start":2440.18,"end":2451.153,"text":"請立主委主委我們公平會是一個仲裁單位還是一個心理單位"},{"start":2457.605,"end":2457.705,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2474.805,"end":2494.682,"text":"公平交易政策法規之擬定審議專業活動及經濟情況之調查違反公平交易法案件之調查與處分多層次傳銷政策法規之擬定及有關案件之調查與處分"},{"start":2499.409,"end":2515.454,"text":"所以他是一個仲裁單位他不是心理這是矛盾你怎麼可能又仲裁又心理這是根本兩個矛盾的作為所以光是你對於你的職長就已經是模糊不清了所以你才會把"},{"start":2516.825,"end":2545.096,"text":"這個剛才看到您的這個業績報告這個也蠻替你高興的你對於各行各業不管是營造業服務業你都有介入調查甚至有一些查處所以你們特別去把工多層次傳銷一直放入在你的本身的業務當中本席都認這個認為是你們是這個拿一塊石頭砸自己的腳"},{"start":2545.956,"end":2567.253,"text":"所以我也有提說這個就業務就移給這個經濟部你們又很堅持那你怎麼可能做到新力跟仲裁呢好 第二個針對本席啊真的對於多層次傳銷要新力的話好 既然你說你們要放在這邊也要新力我一直主張許可制換掉現在的這個報備制你才能良幣驅逐劣幣"},{"start":2572.952,"end":2599.812,"text":"好 那這個你們也不踩好 那我們來看現在的多層次傳銷保護基金會我們簡稱傳保會我們來看他現在呢 有哪些異議啊好 我們現在這一次的呢專業的董事代表專業性不足第二個呢 重外商跟親本土第三本席有一個具體的要求好 傳保會長期向傳銷事業收取保惠費基金呢 已經多少錢了 3億元"},{"start":2601.873,"end":2609.578,"text":"也就是說業者繳的民脂民膏無法發揮保護傳銷商的功能所以本席呢下一個定義就是現在您的作為一個評語公平會的帶領下傳保會是長期毫無作為的公平會怎麼會去帶領一個產業呢好那確實是你想帶領所以你們又毫無作為又怎麼沒作為呢先不降新利你連房幣也沒作為"},{"start":2627.289,"end":2644.146,"text":"縱觀傳保會開始的103年到現在113年10年了離譜的是什麼從來沒有一件協助傳銷商的訴訟你去完成一件代償而致死受害的傳銷商還是得自尋其他管道自救"},{"start":2645.973,"end":2664.818,"text":"傳保會為什麼種外商跟清本土來我們就把這一次的名單拿起來我們有幾個代表有傳銷事業代表董事傳銷商代表董事然後有這個學者專家代表董事以及監察人我們來看傳銷商事業董事這三個人當中有兩個就外商"},{"start":2665.918,"end":2672.823,"text":"你們就直接找直銷協會推薦 這個表很清楚那你們傳銷商的代表 連基層都會受害的傳銷商代表你們還是找外商而且這個外商都是美商關於這個公平會叫做美商的公平會你們就是捍衛美商的利益捍衛美商傳銷商的利益的公平會"},{"start":2692.536,"end":2717.29,"text":"這個當中除了聯法一席為本土的代表就是在傳銷事業其餘的傳銷事業跟傳銷商全部都是美商再來以往多層次傳銷工會我們有工會喔工會是本土全部都是本國的喔拿著自己的血汗錢打天下還能夠立足台灣放眼全球過往的傳銷商工會理事長是當然懂事這個理事長是會換的"},{"start":2720.612,"end":2742.116,"text":"沒有特定的但是你們這屆當中就把它排除在外了好那再來看這個學者專家這邊有4個12345這5個這3個全部叫做公平會幫要嘛就是公平會政府官員退休要嘛就是公平會的委員卸任好嗎那再來2個學者這2個學者他們學有專精但"},{"start":2746.497,"end":2764.538,"text":"就不是傳銷的本質也不是傳也不懂傳銷產業破缺需求的門外漢好本席具體的要求在一個月內你要完成這幾件事情第一個完成調整傳保會的董事比例增加本土專業代表所謂專業就是瞭解這個產業的"},{"start":2766.5,"end":2768.081,"text":"財政部下的銀行跟消費者之間的平益中心"},{"start":2793.63,"end":2796.852,"text":"第3重新檢討傳保會存在的必要檢視法源正式的回文到底傳保費是屬於公部門的法人還是民間團體的組織"},{"start":2810.381,"end":2824.302,"text":"並配合修改章程最後為何董事的臨選沒有規避旋轉門所以公平會現在是心力不成除弊為果而傳保會是沒有存在的必要針對本席做的這4項要求您的回應"},{"start":2825.563,"end":2852.696,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單說明第一個我們在選董事的時候有請工會協會各單位提出推薦名單那工會只推薦一名這一名資格不符所以工會代表這次沒有那是因為他提名的就是只有一名這一名是資格不符的那第二個就是說傳保會是一個財團法人所以他沒有所謂的旋轉門條款因為他不是盈利事業"},{"start":2853.756,"end":2858.981,"text":"那你所有的董監事都你在主導啊那個董監事我們有一個領選的那個主委我為什麼說是公部門是公部門的財團法百分百投資還是說他是呢百分之像中鋼啊或者像我們一些財團法人政府投資49對啊那怎麼可以有公平會的官員在裡面呢"},{"start":2880.879,"end":2909.154,"text":"你怎麼可以主導這個公平會的是那個傳保會的所有的人事跟政策方向呢矛盾點就在這邊啊好在這麼多的這個董事當中公平會所推出去的代表名額有限那我們還是從傳銷商傳銷事業學者專家裡面來臨選而且有臨選辦法歷年來都是這樣的一個組成您睜眼說一下話來看一下這個名單專家學者"},{"start":2910.154,"end":2928.31,"text":"五席當中就三行叫公平會的公平幫了五席就佔了一半了那再看之前您說這個是公會沒有推薦好那沒關係您說了就算所以本席就叫你一個月內趕快的召開臨時董建事會來調整這樣的董建事"},{"start":2931.232,"end":2943.518,"text":"可以做到嗎我們董監事會是有任期的除非他有發生什麼特別的情況否則我們應該讓這個傳保會的董事這個業務的執行有他的穩定性所以繼續收錢不辦事繼續的讓業者繳錢傳保會並不是沒有辦事您提出數據說明"},{"start":2952.603,"end":2952.623,"text":"數量"},{"start":2981.513,"end":2981.873,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3009.514,"end":3010.194,"text":"請邱映穎委員質詢請李主委"},{"start":3045.675,"end":3055.085,"text":"主委長,我想我們每一次在這邊質詢的時候都會問到這個多層次傳銷的問題根據你們的統計,現在多層次傳銷的營業額已經高達到1083.7億元,今年又增加了29.1億元"},{"start":3067.839,"end":3068.76,"text":"公平會主動移送調查的詐騙案有143件"},{"start":3088.069,"end":3091.31,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3117.057,"end":3144.162,"text":"主委這個是我們調出來齁這一家公司曾經被公平會裁罰過裁罰的金額只有10萬塊裁罰的原因是因為他做多層次傳銷沒有向公平會報備所以被裁罰了10萬塊那之後呢裁罰了之後這一家公司說他不做多層次傳銷你們也就沒有繼續再查了"},{"start":3145.523,"end":3145.723,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":3170.967,"end":3192.906,"text":"當時就是10年前曾經沒有報備就從事多層次長效 這個我們處罰過了你們這個處罰10萬塊 你如果對比他現在的吸金的程度 違法吸金的程度 這個其實只是零毛一角就是說當時處罰的是沒有報備 那至於吸金那一定有更嚴重的刑法的一些制裁"},{"start":3194.565,"end":3195.626,"text":"可不可以有一個可以提供的資料可以給本席"},{"start":3212.483,"end":3212.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3231.806,"end":3245.281,"text":"現在不只是多層次傳銷現在大家最厲害的最喜歡講的是淨零碳排所以淨零碳排的課程也很多這個我不知道公平會有沒有開始立案調查讓您看一下現在有這種"},{"start":3248.064,"end":3268.64,"text":"不知道哪裡報出來的博士然後他去歐洲就說他是這個臺灣的代表那甚至呢也有沒有立案就開始在違法招生這個影片呢是在4月的時候就已經在網路上流傳了這一家叫探淨林學院他立案的日期呢是在2024年的5月16號"},{"start":3270.962,"end":3277.691,"text":"但是畢業學員的影片在2024年的4月22號就已經開始在YouTube上面流傳"},{"start":3278.786,"end":3304.82,"text":"主委這要不要查跟委員說明不是只有查這家公司假借淨林碳排然後開一大堆奇奇怪怪的課程以淨林碳排開這個招生也好那他說他邀請了什麼偉大的人或是多麼專業的人如果事實沒有這個我們向來就會查前一陣子還說是跟經濟部合作或者是跟其他單位合作這個我們都會查也有處罰的案例"},{"start":3304.94,"end":3324.092,"text":"你們都會查的意思是說你們還沒有開始查那如果還沒有開始查是什麼時候要開始查你這個違法招生我們有一件已經立案調查那再來就是說他用這個補習班的方式去招生也同時違反這個補習教育相關法令這個我們跟教育部會有一個合作的機制來遏阻這種不實的行為"},{"start":3326.994,"end":3349.376,"text":"主委我想我們現在提出的這些東西其實我們過去都一直不斷的在強調公平會很多時候是屬於被動的立場就是有人檢舉你們才去查你們很少會去主動發掘然後主動去立案調查我覺得這個是公平會比較弱的地方所以常常都是立法委員在這裡質詢然後或者是說你們有接到誰的檢舉才開始去調查"},{"start":3351.918,"end":3378.84,"text":"讓大家會覺得公平會其實效能不彰但公平會是不是真的效能不彰其實就你們來說你們其實做了很多事情嘛你也覺得很委屈嘛接下來我要問的這個大概會跟人事案有關主委您的任期會到明年的1月31號任滿正常來講立法院應該要在今年的10月底行政院應該今年的10月底就要提名新的主委人選"},{"start":3380.281,"end":3381.242,"text":"要送到立法院來審查"},{"start":3410.56,"end":3426.374,"text":"不只是要杯葛甚至呢任期屆滿之後如果沒有通過人事同意權的話他就要刪除所謂的過度條款要刪除所謂的過度條款主委您知道這個事情嗎我知道"},{"start":3427.401,"end":3451.314,"text":"我知道好那你們有沒有什麼因應措施或者是任期結束之後你會直接拍拍屁股就走人還是說你們會有人留下來撐撐到這個人事統一權通過那假如立法院強行把這個所謂的過度條款刪除的話公平會能不能運作該如何運作怎麼樣持續運作"},{"start":3452.355,"end":3455.978,"text":"主委來請您說明一下我們有4位委員會在明年1月底任期屆滿所以現任的7位委員會剩3位當時立法設計7個人就是大家各有專長跟經驗好好去執行我們應該做的這些工作所以我還是希望這一屆的這個任期能夠如期來舉行"},{"start":3475.074,"end":3498.386,"text":"如果沒有完成這個任命,第一個7個人剩3個人,那3個人如果有請假,或者是有留會的情形,尤其是我們結合案件,我舉個例子好了,我們現在Foodpanda跟結合,正在結合,如果沒有辦法在法定,正在結合申報,如果在法定期間內沒有做出決定,他就可以結合"},{"start":3500.421,"end":3523.121,"text":"如果我們沒有這個足夠的這個委員的人數或者是法定人數不足或者是很少的這個人數做成決議第一個這個決議的內容是否周延是一個問題那假設留會或者是人員不足這個案子結合我們的結合是這樣子沒有過了這個審議期以後你們沒有沒有任何的裁處的話沒有任何的裁決的話他就是直接就結合了嘛"},{"start":3525.723,"end":3541.758,"text":"所以你現在要講就是說如果是這樣的話對於未來你們在審查這樣的一個重大的結合案件其實是會遇到相當大的不管是結合案件或是違法的聯合限制競爭不實廣告的行為在做決議的時候在執行上恐怕會有一些摯愛難行"},{"start":3542.679,"end":3560.689,"text":"其實公平會看起來其實它不是有太大政治性的一個部會但是對於台灣的很多的公平交易事項或者是違規的事、廣告不實的事項等等它其實是有一個重大的裁決權的單位啦所以我們當然也不希望"},{"start":3562.791,"end":3578.906,"text":"這個大家是這樣子用比較不理性的方式去刪除掉這樣所謂的過度條款即使不能在任期完成之前任期屆滿之前完成人事同意權但是我覺得所謂的過度條款也不應該任意的刪除啦"},{"start":3582.049,"end":3609.098,"text":"當然如果能夠在任期結束之前完成人事權的審查這當然是最好所以我想我們也會來努力但是我覺得公平會你們自己也要有一套應對的措施或者是說也要有一套說帖出來這個立法院的這個交戰常常是瞬息萬變那對於政務官來講對於你們的這個行政單位來說你們其實也要有一套"},{"start":3609.898,"end":3610.198,"text":"請賴瑞榮委員質詢請李主委"},{"start":3643.764,"end":3662.407,"text":"主委我想請教你現在民怨之首是什麼民怨最高的是什麼事件詐騙公平會也是政府機關的一環政府應該全力的來打詐這件事情那我想請教一下公平會作為打詐的事情有什麼樣的角色可以來做"},{"start":3664.629,"end":3690.872,"text":"打炸是整個政府機關都要動起來去改善它去阻止它那所以在行政院有一個跨部會小組公平會也是其中的一員公平會有什麼樣的作為更積極的作為來做嗎譬如說我們負責如何去試炸阻炸這部分我們也應該要責無旁貸主委你認為公平會有沒有善盡到打炸跟整個防炸這樣的工作有沒有善盡盡了最大的努力我們有盡努力在"},{"start":3691.833,"end":3709.128,"text":"我希望盡了最大努力我認為公平有努力但是我認為還有空間我們來看一下公平會在查處開罰這個當然是不時廣告包括不時的廣告跟不時網路廣告從110年的63件到110年的81、92到今年1到8月的51大概是這樣的規模一樣不會超過百件那網路廣告一樣大概也是不到百件"},{"start":3717.836,"end":3718.357,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":3733.893,"end":3758.431,"text":"裏面 如果這是3個月而已啦 但是你回推回來大概一年有12萬件12萬件以公平會來查處的話 大概不到0.1%我的意思是說 有沒有各單位都窮盡了各種方法盡了最大努力防詐 我認為公平會在不實廣告裏面有你很大的空間你的這個報告裏面也提到第5點 查實不實廣告"},{"start":3759.532,"end":3786.728,"text":"對我來說 除了查實不實廣告外 詐騙其實是更嚴重的一個不實廣告他 連空的 連什麼都沒有 就可以去給你做不實 給你詐騙所以我認為其實在公平交易法裡面 有給予公平會足夠的空間 去來做打詐這樣的動作就是你不要擔憂 你打了他之後 他要不要來宿院 他要不要來那個 那是另外一件事情 但是你連打都不打的時候 這些的詐騙就非常的猖獗主委有沒有同這樣的看法"},{"start":3787.501,"end":3811.754,"text":"我認同要各部會看到這個有詐欺的形式都要去處理所以我們在監控這個不時廣的廣告的過程主委先不要提到各部會去啦公平會有沒有善盡你所有的方法來打詐我想沒有最好只有更好然後我們去我們可以有在努力的空間不敢說百分之百已經做到最好但是這個打詐這件事情是各部會都要通過"},{"start":3812.174,"end":3829.85,"text":"現在有很多的網路的 現在最多的就是投資詐騙最多了 網路的甚至謝金河甚至許貴雅 常常都 他們不斷的澄清我沒有 我沒有推薦大家投資 但這些東西不斷的在臉書在很多的平台上不斷被投放 在這件事情上面公平會有沒有角色可以做處理"},{"start":3830.27,"end":3847.681,"text":"我想對這個廣告他如果內容不實影響交易自信公平法21條一定可以處理所以這個其實可以嗎一定是不實嗎因為他當事人都已經澄清我沒有做這樣的宣傳鼓勵大家來買這支股票鼓勵大家買頭所以其實你覺得這是比不實更嚴重的一個狀況下當然"},{"start":3849.282,"end":3873.088,"text":"如果涉及到詐欺那已經刑事犯罪了 刑事的犯罪他的處罰我只講的是公平會在你的角色上你有沒有辦法去做處理我認為公平會是有角色可以做處理因為我講過了這是比不死更嚴重的不死的問題他是用空的去賣的賣的是一個空的東西但是你們自我限縮覺得這是詐騙所以詐騙歸速發部詐騙歸警政署"},{"start":3877.429,"end":3898.188,"text":"麻煩了也完全難處理我的意思是說如果你有辦法給予開罰的時候因為我們對於這個實名制之後開罰的時候你開罰得到他罰了之後他們才會有壓力之後這件事情才會銷聲匿跡你一定要從源頭去管治掉這件事情要不然一年光這樣的案件網路的違法的投資廣告就12萬件一年就12萬件而你們開罰不到100件如果你開罰個"},{"start":3901.01,"end":3923.217,"text":"五千件一萬件你只要開發五千件一萬件他們覺得有相當大的壓力我跟你講下個月隔個月之後馬上少一半以上甚至於更低因為你政府有沒有用你善盡你的你剛也提到了公平交易法裡面的第21條有空間我們來看一下公平交易法第21條有嚴打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告的你們對MOMO也開發過"},{"start":3924.637,"end":3935.019,"text":"只要就商品的相關及注意影響交易決定的虛偽不實跟引人錯誤的表示開罰10萬9月12號臉書也開罰了5萬9月10號的這個也開罰了10萬包括臉書也被開罰了10萬包括這個8月8號的PC home包括7月29號的臉書有關於購買房子的部分也開罰了100萬所以其實你們是有空間有能力去做處理的"},{"start":3952.043,"end":3970.411,"text":"但是你們自我限縮你們覺得這是不實行為我要再次強調詐騙是比不實不實的廣告更嚴重的不實更嚴重的不實你們當然有權利去開罰當你們開罰了以後我不認為這些人有什麼好有溯源的空間完全沒有溯源空間因為就是假的嘛就是騙的嘛"},{"start":3971.071,"end":3985.821,"text":"當你開罰了以後這些案件會大量的下降當你開罰了之後臉書沒有辦法去迴避說這是你個人的行為臉書有90%的收益是來自於廣告收益如果他縱容這些詐騙的廣告不斷的出現其他形容是共犯"},{"start":3986.701,"end":4001.418,"text":"全部的詐騙行為大家都看得懂主委你看得懂吧你看一般人多數人有一半的人我認為都看得懂那個一看就是詐騙廣告臉書會不知道嗎?詐騙的人會不知道嗎?但是他不需要一半的人騙到他只要10%的人被騙到獲利就非常的巨大"},{"start":4002.148,"end":4026.794,"text":"那公平會在這件事情上有沒有善盡他的職責我認為現在是沒有的所以我這一兩年不斷來講這件事情公平我希望善盡你該有的職責讓你成為是一個積極行政積極作為的機關而不是消極保守當你也知道詐騙是全民最反彈對政府的信任最低的時候而你在這個位置上面正有機會可以做一些事的時候卻放著不做這不是很可惜嗎"},{"start":4027.774,"end":4050.265,"text":"主委委員我容許我說明一下不時廣告在公平交易法裡面他賣商品他賣服務那如果這個行為是說你來投資後就可以賺多少錢基本上這是一個投資的一個廣告那我們要看在公平交易法裡面是不時不時是對商品服務那如果有合資21條主委我認為這個都是你自我的限縮"},{"start":4050.965,"end":4078.667,"text":"就是你限縮之後所以反倒是你有賣東西這個東西的品質功能不太好這個會被開罰賣騙你的欸不會開罰沒事同樣是不實一個是全部空的完全沒有的不實一種是有東西的不實你只開罰有東西的不實你對於空的騙的假的完全的這種不實你是不開罰的我認為這個是公平會自我的限縮你應該要跟著時代的記憶形成我講了嘛你開罰了如果任何的書院敢進來書院再來談嘛"},{"start":4080.448,"end":4092.438,"text":"來疏遠 給行政院來疏遠嘛包括行政法院都可以來疏遠你可以來談談看嘛但是你連這樣的開罰都不願意做的時候這些的猖獗到這個程度嘛我講了嘛 光這樣的詐騙一年12萬件"},{"start":4095.523,"end":4111.839,"text":"明人們嘴巴講破頭了謝金河說我沒有我沒有許貴亞說我沒有沒有講過頭了沒有用詐騙的人數不斷地在增加公平會明明手上有一個武器可做為什麼不做我再講一下你們對於拍賣網站的部分你們對行動的這些你們都有開發過了"},{"start":4113.502,"end":4139.034,"text":"在於公平交易法21條不實廣告：對廣告主：對廣告代理業者：對廣告媒體業者：對廣告見證者都可以開罰你能不能善盡這樣的功能 沒有你們自我限縮 自我保守你們只要開罰 不只是對實際在詐騙這些人開罰甚至於如果你也找臉書來談你90%的獲益是來自於廣告連這種不實廣告我們一般人看到都知道那是假的"},{"start":4140.515,"end":4149.045,"text":"臉書會不知道嗎臉書用AIC搜尋一下往下看沒有錢怎麼辦如果用小錢賺大錢主委這一看就知道這有問題嘛對不對"},{"start":4150.812,"end":4177.67,"text":"這個你知道我知道百分之五十人可能都知道但是百分之二三十人被騙了就很嚴重了臉書會不知道嗎臉書會沒有能力來遏止這樣事情嗎要不然你要貼這件廣告在社群或在臉書上貼你至少要有更清楚的確切的洩明嘛現在沒有反正登上去臉書也沒有的事這是各自的你們的言論自由這是那個然後臉書沒事廣告費賺得很高興然後或者是整個社群的賺得很高興那"},{"start":4179.331,"end":4203.494,"text":"政府機關的這個不歸他這個不歸我就變成最後所有的受害者就是一般的老百姓那人民大院啊政府為什麼對這件事情沒有辦法作為我再強調一次速發部開始也要有作為了沒有錯但是包括警政署很努力在做事後歸事後但事前一定有一套機制可以做更強的一個防治上的效果如果我們做了更多事情的效果的話警政署不用忙翻天整天在那邊抓"},{"start":4204.235,"end":4224.654,"text":"包括也不用很多人被詐騙完了之後還要求他下架整天發文要求臉書下架也要求臉書下架臉書就有能力去識別這是不是真的嘛如果是假的你不用全部嘛你把現在的詐騙廣告有一半你自己篩選掉一半是假的就造福了很多的人了嘛這做得到嗎我認為絕對做得到臉書做得到公平會做得到那為什麼不做"},{"start":4225.95,"end":4252.578,"text":"主委可不可以再說明一下我想跟委員說明一個行為如果是個犯罪行為應該由司法好好把他制裁那從這個公平交易法的這個不實廣告的內容他主要是一個行政法那如果他同時是一個一個刑事的案件主委我還是要再跟你強調我懂你的說法啦但是我講的是現在政府有沒有窮盡他各種方法去做處理即使行政法裡面這個行政法也可以該給他適度的壓力的啦"},{"start":4254.42,"end":4264.016,"text":"沒有理由沒有理由所有這些的臉書到台灣來的時候然後在這件事情上面是這麼的毫無壓力的啦賺取了這麼多的利益甚至於"},{"start":4265.491,"end":4290.314,"text":"詐騙者在這邊利用這樣的平台奪得這麼多利益而我們是無能為力拒約束他的這個是交代不過去的啦主委你講的我都懂你講的都司法反正但是我講的是行政作為行政有沒有這件事情上讓人民感受到積極行政積極作為積極打詐積極反詐騙這樣的作為如果這樣的作為還是這麼消極的話我們當然會要求書發部當然會要求其他部委但我認為公平會該有更強的作為啦"},{"start":4290.854,"end":4307.29,"text":"不然網費的一個這個機關有這樣的能力在做全世界其他國家很多公平交易的機制也在做很多的努力嘛我認為台灣的公平會可以做出更好的一個做法我期待在這一段時間內一個月內我希望你們針對這個部分有積極的作為你只要開罰的一件兩件三件"},{"start":4307.99,"end":4314.714,"text":"這些詐騙的就知道公平會已經開始對這個事情已經重視了出手了這樣自然就處理同時間你們可以跟臉書跟Meta幾個講了我們開始重視問題了我不是不能罰你如果你無法遏阻這樣的不實廣告嚴重超不實的不實廣告不斷的出現的話我對你這廣告的媒體業者我也開罰"},{"start":4328.502,"end":4348.793,"text":"你不能夠賺到這麼多的錢而卻縱容漠視這個違法的詐騙廣告不斷的持續出現你賺這樣錢是不義之財我認為這個要讓這些業者做到而他們有沒有能力做到?絕對有能力做到AI隨便寫個數字一查一下這些什麼稍微有些廣告貼文是貼的一模一樣的這個群組貼那個群組貼那個群組貼這個群組詐騙那個群組詐騙每個詐騙完全無作為"},{"start":4354.068,"end":4365.074,"text":"臉書無作為政府無作為這樣大家怎麼能接受好不好我希望主委怎麼樣有個作為一個月內給我一份報告好嗎好不好針對這件事情怎麼樣有作為給我一份又給我一個報告好謝謝主委請張家健委員質詢"},{"start":4384.727,"end":4387.669,"text":"主席我想請李主委請李主委李主委早安我想呢大家整個委員會每一個委員都希望你有積極作為我也很好奇說你心目中是不是覺得公平會其實沒有那麼重要就是一個可有可無的單位"},{"start":4407.517,"end":4412.06,"text":"本期想要首先先問你Uber在今年的5月14號已經宣布收購台灣的Full Panda目前全案的進度為何?辦理的到什麼程度?"},{"start":4428.653,"end":4451.805,"text":"跟委員說明我們是5月收到這個案子那因為這個案子是會涉及到市場結構的改變在公平會審查會涉及到市場結構改變的案子所以進步到什麼程度目前請這個當事人補正還在補正階段所以還在補正階段你也還沒有決定說到底要不要核准"},{"start":4452.165,"end":4452.265,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4482.665,"end":4499.978,"text":"實材成本就已經佔了大概是六成左右那電租再加15%的話利潤大概就是25%現在的店家一定都會要漲價來因應這件事情那如果未來的環境更惡化吃虧的始終是消費者"},{"start":4500.798,"end":4522.651,"text":"包括說如何保障這15萬外送員工的權益我想這個是公平會也需要去考量在你同意或不同意之前你一定要去考量那包括這一點這點可能跟你比較有關係外送平台都會收取月費跟年費主委你有加入外送平台嗎"},{"start":4523.789,"end":4551.186,"text":"我本身沒有對假設你有的話或者是你們公平會有有這個職員有的話你可以好好請教他一下都會宣稱說加入會員可以讓消費者享有免運的優惠享有會員的專屬折扣更便宜省更多但是目前呢有網友在網路發現同品項的會員跟非會員顯示的價格竟然不一樣"},{"start":4551.926,"end":4560.731,"text":"反而沒有買會員的餐點會更便宜那這一點是不是應該你要介入的這是不是不實廣告如果他有這個會員跟非會員他對會員有宣稱有什麼優惠沒有達到這個優惠的內容"},{"start":4574.258,"end":4576.68,"text":"所以本席現在就告訴你說你應該主動積極的我現在跟你講的你到底聽不聽得懂"},{"start":4594.412,"end":4608.938,"text":"我再跟你講的是他已經說會員會更便宜但是會員沒有更便宜那這個要整個 我的這個案子我有了解是這樣是不是不實廣告這樣是不是不實廣告是不是不實廣告嘛 我告訴你嘛我問你啊 我問你說"},{"start":4616.681,"end":4623.222,"text":"他告訴你說加入會員會更便宜但事實上沒有更便宜這樣是不是不實廣告?他講得非常清楚啊免運費然後會員有專屬折扣啊假設同樣一個品項你非會員比會員便宜這樣子是不是不實廣告?是啊你要主動積極為什麼你會這麼的"},{"start":4644.568,"end":4647.691,"text":"我們應該要去瞭解他所謂的比較便宜是指哪一些面向"},{"start":4665.455,"end":4666.996,"text":"當然是餐點的價格阿 如果假設他餐點點A點A餐點 會員價跟非會員價 非會員價"},{"start":4678.027,"end":4698.354,"text":"還比較便宜這些費用包括餐廳的這個費用還有外上員的費用還有他的服務費那這樣子是不是不實廣告我就問你我假設這個是屬實這樣是不是不實廣告廣告所謂比較便宜是哪一些我假設問你說是用A品項去比較的話"},{"start":4703.496,"end":4707.698,"text":"我還在跟委員說明我們必須說他講的是什麼具體的內容我覺得你的頭腦有一點問題你完全不理解我現在在問你的是什麼我再跟你說"},{"start":4728.427,"end":4734.118,"text":"為什麼大家都會覺得公平會可有可無好像是沒有在作為好像是消極為什麼因為"},{"start":4737.281,"end":4742.845,"text":"在韓國我不曉得你有沒有看過這個例子韓國的公平會開罰了Coupon38億為什麼開罰因為他濫用濫用這個評論這個韓國的知名電商Coupon6月在韓國的公平交易委員會開罰他34億台幣的罰單為什麼"},{"start":4761.798,"end":4772.162,"text":"因為他們使用不公平的演算法外加大量動員員工去撰寫這個商品評價藉此誤導消費者做選擇那我現在就想要想要問你啊主委主委我問你假設臺灣也是啊這個coupon在臺灣也可以看得到啊同樣一個例子你在臺灣的公平會你要不要作為"},{"start":4790.472,"end":4807.921,"text":"第一個就是說如果有不實廣告如果有違反我們公平交易法的規定我們當然要去處理所以本席現在就提醒你啊臺灣的coupon你要不要去積極調查coupon它在韓國的這個經營模式譬如說它商品來源一模一樣這個虛偽的評論在臺灣也看得到也買得到這麼明顯的一個案例你也沒有要積極作為啊"},{"start":4817.523,"end":4831.754,"text":"如果有其他的電商平台也使用這種虛偽的購買心得是不是也違反我們的台灣公平法台灣公平交易法你要怎麼處理不是代言是他發動內部的員工去寫不實的評論"},{"start":4838.358,"end":4866.832,"text":"公平網有處罰的規定但是這個案子我們目前沒有看到我相信你目前沒有看到現在就是提醒你去看嘛現在提醒你去調查嘛難道是我要整理好幫你調查是嗎所以本席想要回到我之前說的話公平會要面對的是不斷進步的商業科技的挑戰公平會不能只靠吹哨者"},{"start":4868.479,"end":4890.771,"text":"你們要主動的對業者宣導甚至是主動的調查才能夠落實保障市場的秩序才可以變成守護這個市場正常運作的守護者否則你太被動啦你現在今天從早到晚講的都是這個交給司法這個交給什麼什麼調查那我再另外問你我再另外問你一個"},{"start":4894.997,"end":4900.462,"text":"不只是訂餐有會員比較便宜的問題叫車也有這種狀況根據媒體報導你的手機快沒電的時候叫車會比較貴因為透過數據的系統分析你的分析你的手機快沒電了所以你的需求比較急迫因此抬高價錢這個並非是單純市場的供需原則而是做出分析比較之後"},{"start":4923.761,"end":4923.981,"text":"請張淇凱委員質詢"},{"start":4966.92,"end":4969.381,"text":"主席 請主委 請你主委委員長 主委 早上好我們今天這回來維護臺灣外送產業環境的整體利益決心今天剛才蔣先生說的 我們要積極一點這位來錄裏你最近有注意一個案子嗎 9月份的時候9月份的時候"},{"start":4994.961,"end":5023.16,"text":"護編打因為沒有提供外送員的強制汽車責任保險然後被台南市政府給他裁罰了你有注意到這個新聞嗎有嘛齁後來台南市政府還敗訴因為換言之說他是保險不是屬於地方的自治的一個事項撤銷的原處分然後現在台南市政府要提上訴嘛齁我提到這個案子是因為護編打跟這個Uber Eats他順利如果結合以後會變成一個"},{"start":5024.124,"end":5049.426,"text":"一家獨大對不對那以後會不會變成很多地方的自治條例反而管不到他你有沒有思考過這個問題如果從比較積極面去想這個問題有想過這個事情嗎你看到這個新聞的時候有想到嗎一家獨大的時候會不會地方要管他們或者地方要求這個外送平台要做一些對外送員的保險啊保障啊更難做嗎對不對"},{"start":5051.633,"end":5053.334,"text":"我現在說的我們把它鎖定在9月這個9月如果是連臺南市政府都敗訴了外送員"},{"start":5080.985,"end":5107.418,"text":"這個負面打不讓他保嘛對不對那以後如果變成兩家合在一起以後這個壓力會不會更大反正更沒辦法去確保外送員的這個權益就是說地方政府或者是其他主管機關他要求外送平台做什麼事情他應該會有相關的這個法源依據或者是相關的這個行政措施那至於這些措施合以不合以有沒有一個法令的依據這就是另外一個行政政策的過程"},{"start":5109.062,"end":5131.229,"text":"公平交易法的宗旨叫你們的任務,來我們看一下,其實剛才你叫家俊會有那麼多的,不要講攻防,就是為什麼會,一個比較積,他一直在講說你不過積極面嘛公平交易法裡面你有六大任務對不對,維護消費者保護利益,確保自由跟公平競爭,12456都是很積極面的"},{"start":5135.449,"end":5152.779,"text":"三跟四稍微比較小級面那這次的併鍋案裡面大家怕到說可能有三大影響所以那時候你曾經講過你公開講過對不對包括四個面向要去審查那為什麼我從九月份這個判決切進來你也可以說你不要管阿"},{"start":5153.922,"end":5155.083,"text":"我們對結合之後會產生的各種影響都有評估而且"},{"start":5172.918,"end":5200.77,"text":"在我們的這個申請裡面我們北中南全省各地都收集不見所以我們把它鎖定用這個用臺南市政府跟護編打這個你覺得如果合併以後會不會外送員的潛力受到更大影響用這個為例子所以這個就是說結合以後對於外送員的這個不管是報酬或是價格這一方面我們都會處理至於保險就是說保險這件事情因為我不知道"},{"start":5201.57,"end":5220.287,"text":"你現在台南市政府不可以叫不定人嗎?如果是又更大的會不會更難叫?就是說他叫不定人是什麼事叫不定人不定人還是要聚在一起?如果是保險那這應該是看相關的法律怎麼適用這個新聞這個事件會不會影響到你們在決定要不要讓他合併的時候?"},{"start":5226.613,"end":5229.855,"text":"對阿可是法院判決他輸了嘛我的意思就是說你現在決定他能不能合併嘛那只有單純就保險這個事情老實講合併以後難度一定更高嘛"},{"start":5259.876,"end":5276.983,"text":"來我們看一下所以才會講說你的積極的功能要發揮好不好來我們看下一張我剛剛主委有講了你們都已經開了很多公聽會對不對你們有在努力我們前陣子台灣民眾黨你看楊瓊英、楊偉炎、林國成、易軍他們我們也開了一個公聽會來我們來討論一下我們報告的內容來下一張"},{"start":5284.298,"end":5297.791,"text":"我們有學界跟專家跟民團他們提醒至少有5件事情第一個兩大外送平台合併以後到底是誰得利這是大家最關心的第一個第二個合併以後如果外送平台片片去砍價"},{"start":5299.028,"end":5322.181,"text":"那外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎?目前這個已經在發生了就跟剛剛講保險事情是一樣的好那合併以後會不會潛入更大的損害?第三個 面對數位平台經濟的多邊性大者都獨大大者如果一直獨大資訊就不對稱了外送員受到演算法控制公平交易法的執行機關你到底有沒有去想過"},{"start":5323.499,"end":5344.945,"text":"你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法這個要好好想一下第4個現在公平交易法是不過因應要不要訂一個專法第5個日本他們本身是有最大的外送平台的所以他們叫做出錢館對不對那你們有沒有考慮在這個合併要不要併的時候考慮要不要我們台灣自己有個像日本的這個出錢館來我問4個很具體的問題來我們看一下迪雷"},{"start":5350.205,"end":5364.109,"text":"主委你回應過嘛,你說現在正在審查這些文件,之後來資料不齊全,對不對?剛剛很多委員問你的時候,你說資料又不齊全,到底站不上去資料?現在切了什麼資料?我想跟委員說明,會議時間這麼久"},{"start":5367.116,"end":5382.198,"text":"重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久比如說全年病大論發這各界也非常的有疑慮那越年越會要變病這個糖溶這個都是會花比較多的時間注意注意我們時間比較有限你們聚焦很清楚的講現在到底少了什麼資料"},{"start":5383.254,"end":5412.14,"text":"我們現在譬如說在將來的這個評估還有剛才您提到的結合的中效你這個結合對我們要評估說你的競爭利益你的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益那你這個結合有什麼經濟利益你綜合效果是什麼那譬如說剛才委員提到的那幾點那個就是有可能是限制競爭的不利益那你整個結合的中效是什麼我們希望他能夠所以你跟他要這些東西很好啊他怎麼會拖那麼久沒有給你"},{"start":5413.12,"end":5441.5,"text":"因為第一個就是說他他外商啦齁就外商他在這個資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部其實可以靠時間因為外商你現在有壓力嗎沒有壓力你怎麼那你剛剛的問題都切中壓話你外商他要準備一些資料你跟他要哪些資料你剛剛回答得很好這個正常他就應該給你啊所以第一個結論他不應該再拖延這是第一個問題第二個我再問你有沒有壓力嘛"},{"start":5441.8,"end":5442.48,"text":"主委比較快好不好"},{"start":5461.647,"end":5486.797,"text":"另外你回應過嘛你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見對不對是包括餐廳、外送員、消費者還有相關的這個主管機關包括消保會跟勞動部是我現在在網路上面有看到勞動部已經開了8次的會議了是資料在網路上我也看到了可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄你有跟那個消保會要這個資料嗎"},{"start":5488.536,"end":5510.869,"text":"我們有請消保會針對這個結合案提供意見提供意見有提供的嗎?消保會的意見有提供有齁那因為勞動部的都已經上網了他看不到你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎?消保會的紀錄我會後了解一下提供給委員兩週內給我兩週內給我好不好最後一個問題啦"},{"start":5515.287,"end":5535.604,"text":"那天開公聽會,很多專家寫者都問到說,裡面一個最重要的關鍵是什麼?特別是外送聯盟,你們到底準不準他合併,最重要的是相關市場的界定。就你把它界定是不是就很單純的外送平台產業。你們現在目前的界定是什麼?往哪個方向走?它很單純就是一個外送平台嗎?"},{"start":5537.026,"end":5564.423,"text":"還是有些人在提供不一樣的意見我們前一案是美食外送平台的市場接近那我們這個案子我們還要再評估甚至我們還要再跟委員在委員會裡面會去討論現在是很多專家寫者有擔心所以你那個相關市場界定要很明確好不好那我現在就是很明確的要求到你們到時候審的時候審以後的那個整個書面要公開透明給大家看好不好最後做一個總結我們希望第一個要"},{"start":5565.143,"end":5565.463,"text":"請政政全委員質詢"},{"start":5605.727,"end":5626.154,"text":"李美珠委主任委員詐騙廣告現在也是到公平會這邊那我想說詐騙廣告肯定是個不實廣告我們公平會對整個所有詐騙的那個相關的廣告相關的行為之前有沒有開出任何的罰則出來"},{"start":5630.775,"end":5657.064,"text":"我們對於不實廣告都有處罰你針對那個詐騙的部分尤其是有關於一些網路上詐騙的部分因為打詐是現在全民的公憤你把公平會在這個部分做了哪些事情到時候給本席一個書面資料完整的書面資料我們做了哪些相關的一個處罰那我接下來想問一下主任我想問一下你對目前國內的檢探政策"},{"start":5657.944,"end":5663.346,"text":"包括了探費探權探綜合還有探盤查等等是不是很了解"},{"start":5664.074,"end":5688.05,"text":"不敢說很瞭解但是有去關注都有關注嗎那因為上個禮拜四環境部發布了一個企業碳中和指引我不知道你知不知道這個事情我知道因為現在很多企業都宣稱自己的產品以達到碳中和但是因為沒有相關的標章消費者不知道說他們是真正的增綠"},{"start":5689.051,"end":5690.031,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5705.856,"end":5709.637,"text":"請問主委我們公平會是不是準備好了要接環境部丟出來這個球我想這個跨機關的合作是應該的"},{"start":5724.821,"end":5738.927,"text":"環境部指引是讓消費者知道什麼叫做碳中和碳排放跟碳移除加減之後要是零不足的時候怎麼去消底那現在就是說消費者或者是一般的企業他換稱我符合碳中和"},{"start":5740.163,"end":5763.648,"text":"環境部的指引主要是要他揭露清楚你是怎麼算的你排多少檢多少那我想問一個最基本的一個問題主委我想問一個最基本的問題因為跟碳有關的問題非常的多我想說講幾個小時候講不完我想國外碳權目前我們如何認定主委國外碳權因為碳中和裡面有一個部分一定是跟國外碳權會有關我們國外碳權目前如何認定"},{"start":5765.684,"end":5769.825,"text":"公平交易法21條這部分我想先問探權這部分因為我待會會再問到21條的事情因為像現在國際很多的一個探權的一個認證標準像VCS 像GS"},{"start":5795.914,"end":5817.543,"text":"目前我們國家都沒有認定可是像世界很多的大廠包括Apple他們包括通信他們都認定那我們怎麼去處理這個問題就公平會來講他宣稱他得到什麼認證不管是這個國際認可或不認可我們會跟環境部來"},{"start":5819.536,"end":5834.222,"text":"徵詢意見最主要就是說你說你得到哪裡的認證就必須是那裡的認證所以說跟環境部再去溝通這個部分那我目前可以接受這個狀態因為目前這個還在進行當中那我為什麼會問這個問題是因為我在上個會期我曾經問過了一個電信業者的合併案那麼我們公平會在去年就是通過兩個附帶條件的合併案"},{"start":5847.907,"end":5868.554,"text":"包括了就是遠傳病亞太去年的7月20號那麼包括了台灣大哥大病台灣之心去年的10月10號都有附帶條件那我當時也問了這個問題就說他合併之後服務品質如果嚴重下降訊號網速都不穩定但上次主委你有回應我就說"},{"start":5869.878,"end":5891.431,"text":"你說NCC本身有一個觀測小組然後公平會會跟NCC保持溝通那我想問一下目前觀測的結果是怎麼樣子我想這兩個結合案在公平會我們會去關注他有沒有履行我們付的負擔至於他這個網路品質的這個監控我們也有就是NCC有沒有結果出來"},{"start":5897.228,"end":5920.019,"text":"還要再徵詢一下退後再出來我先舉個例子給你這是消費者直接公佈出來的狀態這個其實是台灣之心被病怒台哥大之後那麼消費者用了一個臺大祭祀中心的一個軟體自己測出來的一個結果那其中下載的部分大概在1Mbps到5Mbps的速度"},{"start":5921.039,"end":5934.882,"text":"那上傳的部分在1Mbps到4Mbps左右的速度這直接大家在網路上公佈出來都很清楚那我想請問一下公平會就是主委你知道說我們正常手機4G的網路下載速度是多少嗎?"},{"start":5937.489,"end":5965.243,"text":"不是很清楚的掌握這一些不是很清楚所以上次我質詢之後你顯然沒有去follow整個電訊合併之後所產生那個狀態所以我今天在追問的時候請你沒有辦法回應出來像正常的時候40到70M是正常的一個情況在台北的時候不管在台灣在怎麼樣台北到70是很正常的台灣到處至少20M以上都是很基本的一個門檻可是你看"},{"start":5968.642,"end":5970.967,"text":"臺哥大變了臺灣之星之後只到1到5咩?這樣的狀態是不是有嚴重影響到消費者的權益?"},{"start":5980.149,"end":6008.221,"text":"若通訊品質沒有達到應該有的這個品質這是有消費者保護的問題所以公平會這邊是不是應該要出手要針對這個事情電信業者合併之後沒有達到他們該提供出來的消費品質公平會是不是應該要出手公平會在當時準結合的時候有一些負擔那這些負擔比較是從這個競爭秩序方面去談的那當然消費者的保護"},{"start":6010.542,"end":6033.118,"text":"競爭秩序是一塊沒有問題可是消費者保護一定是公平會很重要的一個目標成立公平會很重要的一個目標所以我希望針對這個部分主委你後續再去追蹤一下後續再給本席一個很清楚的一個報告好不好我會跟委員說明這個NCC的負擔跟我們的負擔差別在哪然後針對消費者權益的部分然後NCC這邊"},{"start":6035.599,"end":6057.45,"text":"顯然沒有很積極去處理這個事情那我們是要公平會這邊出手因為現在NCC其實也很亂那我想說針對這個部分再給本席一個完整的一個書面資料那我接下來還要再問一個你剛剛提到就是公平交易法第21條那我想問一下預售屋預售屋的不實廣告你怎麼認定"},{"start":6058.94,"end":6079.353,"text":"預售屋的不實廣告就是他廣告說他有什麼就要有什麼是所以基本上也是用公平交易法第21條對於有虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表徵基本上這是一個很重要的一個判斷標準對不對是是嗎OK那第42條直接表示說OK那他可以處5萬元到2500萬以下的一個罰款應該也是這樣的一個條件對不對是OK好我想問一個具體的一個個案"},{"start":6088.756,"end":6111.835,"text":"來 主委你看到這樣右邊這樣子的一個廣告的時候他說已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安信購屋華南銀行信託保證這樣的一個廣告的時候你覺得會不會誤導民眾我為什麼會提這個問題因為這個問題是在這一波央行打房之後還持續的廣告"},{"start":6113.755,"end":6133.537,"text":"如果他說有預留華南銀行的額度結果沒有這個就是不實廣告如果沒有的時候就不實廣告所以我們如果看到這個他說預留華南銀行貸款額度的時候那我們去買了房子到時候華南銀行沒有貸款給我們的時候這個建商就會出問題是這個意思嗎我的意思說你廣告說什麼就要有什麼"},{"start":6134.258,"end":6162.586,"text":"所以我說你看嘛右邊這廣告已經預留華南銀行貸款額度安心購屋那這樣子算不算是一個不實廣告算不算有誤導民眾需要去查因為我們在看的是不實以至於誤導如果沒有不實就不會到誤導的問題那這樣子算不算不實主委你的專業你這樣直接看算不算不實是不是真的有華南銀行貸款是怎麼說的這個是需要了解的"},{"start":6163.584,"end":6174.436,"text":"那是不是會誤導民眾來做購屋因為現在央行現在這一波打房之後出現很多的狀態是很多銀行都縮了銀根都不願意再放款出來喔"},{"start":6176.705,"end":6192.674,"text":"會不會誤導又看各每個不同消費者的認知主委這個部分我想說請主委這邊再跟我們內政部地政司這邊跟消保行政院消保處這邊的時候去做一個完整一點點的一個"},{"start":6194.835,"end":6197.058,"text":"公平交易委員會對於預收銷售行為案件的處理原則裡面規範的沒有那麼樣的細緻所以我們希望"},{"start":6214.246,"end":6214.647,"text":"最後一個部分針對"},{"start":6233.51,"end":6262.453,"text":"建保就是醫療相關的一個掛號費這個部分的時候他算不算是一個聯合行為這一波很多都漲價了在相近的時間都漲價算不算聯合行為有沒有就有漲價是一個客觀事實我們會去看看他們橫向有沒有勾結談價他們肯定有開過會公會裡面肯定有開過會因為我看到你報告裡面針對很多公會的部分包括土木公會"},{"start":6263.634,"end":6284.273,"text":"包括一些就是結構工會等等都有一些相關的一個部分所以針對這個部分希望主委這邊也多費點心針對這個掛號費的聯合行為的部分那到之後再都給本席一個很完整的書面說明謝謝"},{"start":6298.599,"end":6308.612,"text":"我們先來請一下呂玉玲召委謝謝主席請離主委請離主委委員好"},{"start":6314.642,"end":6342.915,"text":"主委公平會要負擔的就是我們整個社會我們所有的相關各行各業在這個市場這個平台上有任何不公的地方我們的公平會就要站出來主動站出來主持公道讓我們所有的大眾不要受到其害但是從早上到現在我一直聽到公平會永遠是被動撇清責任"},{"start":6344.156,"end":6355.856,"text":"見報了到司法單位了還跟你們沒關係除非判決出來你們才承認這個是有問題的什麼叫做有問題只要有受害者就有問題對不對"},{"start":6358.926,"end":6379.575,"text":"有時候可能就是有這個違反法令的行為那你又在鐵案司法我說主委為什麼早上這麼多委員大家都會比較激動的來問你就是你一直不聚焦委員問你的問題你都一直在答非所問我就跟你聚焦再聚焦一下請問"},{"start":6381.974,"end":6382.154,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6400.016,"end":6421.484,"text":"並購福本大在整個社會的輿論上傾向他是不支持的但是在整個外送平台裡面你看到這兩家一個是第一名一個就是第二名他們要合併了社會大眾非常的緊張他們為什麼緊張我不知道公平會了不了解但是他們如果合併的話一定會影響市場上的結構"},{"start":6422.944,"end":6446.272,"text":"公平會你們態度跟立場而言你們對於獨佔的這個市場他們會不會在整個市場上面的你一直講的就是說這個限制的這個制度跟這個方面齁在這限制競爭這方面會不會影響其他競爭者的競爭因為他是第一大他是第二大他獨佔這個市場"},{"start":6448.193,"end":6452.978,"text":"合併之後的話其他市長有沒有能力跟他競爭就是限制競爭的這有沒有達到限制競爭"},{"start":6456.36,"end":6480.608,"text":"我想會不會整個市場的競爭結構的這個改變還有他市佔率的改變我已經告訴你他是第一名第二名這兩個合併起來不是大怪獸了嗎他對於這個將來消費者的影響包括餐廳店家的影響這個都是我們整個要評估那資料如果沒有很齊全我們不是列放送資料給你的喔那他影響的是哪方面對店家什麼影響"},{"start":6481.668,"end":6508.901,"text":"對店家譬如說我們也做了很多的公聽會的徵詢店家擔心以後店家跟這個平台合作這個服務費可能會提高超成的問題是好那那個對於外送平台呢外送平台因為我們有這麼多的這個外送員他們也擔心說將來這個談判力量會不對等譬如說把這個外送費用降低或者是其他的就他的薪資會降低了薪資降低了那對消費者呢"},{"start":6509.241,"end":6535.079,"text":"消費者也擔心就提高價格因為我沒得選擇只能選這一家嘛以前有兩家可以選這個都是我們我提到的就是對於利害關係人的影響你都能夠說出來這就是一連貫的為了他們兩家和平之後產生了三輸的局面就是外送平台的外送人員還有店家還有消費者外送平台的人員因為他薪資會被他們控制而降低"},{"start":6535.879,"end":6536.32,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6551.056,"end":6551.777,"text":"公平會是委員會"},{"start":6569.696,"end":6596.366,"text":"是不是送給你們那就是你們立場你要負責審核那公平會是委員制我們這麼大的案子一定要請到委員會討論那現在你5月份送資料給你們現在到8月份你們要求他們要補正資料補正資料現在是9月30號了又過掉兩個月了那資料送到沒有還沒有那個補正時間還沒到不是因為他是國外的公司就還沒有因為在公平交易法的第11條"},{"start":6598.167,"end":6616.64,"text":"臺北有講到 這個第7項跟第8項裡面 如果正式受理之後 已經正式受理了嗎 正式受理還沒有 還沒有正式受理 文件齊備才正式受理他現在文件還沒有齊備 所以還沒有他如果再過了半年還沒送來呢 會不會取消 會不會取消所以 主委 你一直在講21條 我現在跟你講11條"},{"start":6624.005,"end":6641.434,"text":"第7項第8項如果這個合併案件正式受理後需要經過30天內做出決定如果有必要性延期可以再延期60天如果最長最長的話只有90個公酬天就要做出決議5月送件現在9月底了你說資料期前才叫做正式送件那5月份就不算囉"},{"start":6652.912,"end":6653.392,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6668.695,"end":6671.516,"text":"對於本案是不是準結合需要到委員會討論那我們必須要有詳細的資料以後才能夠在委員會裡面做判斷"},{"start":6697.125,"end":6725.263,"text":"所以你們現在連立場態度都沒有五月份送件到現在補件都一直遲遲不送來經過了年底他還沒辦法送來你還不能做個裁決公平會廢了算了廢掉算了一個公平會今天來了多少官員你一年處理十個案件處理這一個社會大眾擔心關心做到很大的傷害的事情你們到現在遲遲不處理"},{"start":6726.479,"end":6726.859,"text":"公平會 公平會"},{"start":6754.798,"end":6773.713,"text":"就這麼兩手一攤叫他們去報警他說他在這個平台上一開始教他怎麼玩股票到後面告訴他說你抽中了股票73張趕快把錢繳進來他問公平會這件事情是否如真但是公平會說去報案吧現在已經到法院了車手什麼都被抓了"},{"start":6774.333,"end":6797.098,"text":"公平會只能這樣去報案嗎?所以我跟你聚焦再聚焦在這種問題上面今天早上每一個委員都講到這個公平會現在網路發達數位在這個平台上網路上在這個平台上已經串聯到這種程度了你公平會要化被動為主動不要看了報紙還不做事"},{"start":6798.178,"end":6809.642,"text":"你們要去看這個平台上有沒有詐騙的有沒有不實的通通都有我們自己稍微有個頭腦能一看就是被騙的你一個人可以抽到73張的這個股票"},{"start":6812.618,"end":6812.878,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6828.783,"end":6852.623,"text":"面對事實現在社會輿論上你們公平會就是讓所有大眾不要受到其害消費者也好店家也好外送平台都好需要你們站出來所以我現在說告訴你現在如果年底還沒有辦法把這個資料送齊的話你要看看這兩家有沒有必要性的合併你們要掀錢可以看一看"},{"start":6853.604,"end":6853.624,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6891.753,"end":6897.661,"text":"呃謝謝大家呃等會在楊秋毅委員諮詢完畢我們休息5分鐘現在請陳婷菲委員諮詢呃謝謝朝委我們請公平會主委請李主委"},{"start":6914.78,"end":6933.367,"text":"主委 剛剛大家一直在針對這所謂外送平台併購案 有對您有一些提問但是我們聽了您剛剛的一些回應 讓我們不免有一些擔心"},{"start":6935.27,"end":6961.151,"text":"我們到底對於這個外送平台併購案我們的態度是什麼你一直說他還沒送進來還沒送進來所以我們還沒入案不是是你們的態度你們要想讓外界知道你們審這個案子的態度是什麼不是他今天送不送進來啊是你今天應該要態度先很明確跟大家說我們會堅持哪幾個原則這樣才對啊"},{"start":6965.818,"end":6982.517,"text":"讓消費者還有我們的一些相關的對於這個產業產業者也好然後或許有一些爭議性的部分他們知道說我該怎麼做我們現在原則到底是什麼"},{"start":6983.858,"end":6984.318,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7004.89,"end":7005.29,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7024.219,"end":7045.251,"text":"經濟利益跟限制競爭不利益如果負大於正那就沒有辦法轉所以這些事要經過包括市場界定的評估那幾點基本上根本都不用再問了你今天兩個最大的平台商外送平台結合之後它不會壟斷"},{"start":7047.168,"end":7066.996,"text":"所有消費者的權益不會受損參議業者不會受損怎麼可能啊你光現在因為有競爭所以很多的消費爭議他不得不處理喔那現在有競爭消費爭議處理還這樣哩哩喇喇喔那如果沒有競爭的時候請問消費爭議誰理你啊你來就來啊你不愛尊稍會不會這個樣子"},{"start":7076.28,"end":7105.509,"text":"所以 主委 您剛講的 我都可以跟您講黑海哥在暑克 兩個最大的外送平台現在 光跟我們服務處 不要說跟你們了服務處 很多的一個所謂服務案件的申訴大量刮開了所以我們認為 您們的態度一直讓大家不清不楚 不明不白"},{"start":7106.607,"end":7129.804,"text":"所以才會搞得大家覺得說按照公平會會不會最後就這樣糊弄的就過了好來 主委在這個外送平台的部分你看喔消費者這個外送員他最大的疑慮是什麼他最大疑慮是什麼"},{"start":7130.964,"end":7131.684,"text":"我們看到我們的參議業者呢"},{"start":7160.844,"end":7185.497,"text":"參議業者疑慮是什麼這個抽成的%會不會提高這是參議院對阿抽成%會不會提高阿一定嘛因為剩一間嘛剩一間而已嘛而且大家要擠到這個窄門嘛他是不是會把條件拉高一定嘛條件拉高誰受害誰受害"},{"start":7186.753,"end":7212.239,"text":"業者受害消費者也受害因為業者會轉嫁在消費者身上就這麼簡單所以光明獨赤的外送平台會造成多大的恐慌再來咧消費者的疑慮呢成本增加這個消費的這個成本也會增高是啊"},{"start":7214.361,"end":7229.58,"text":"是阿所以消費者所擔心全部公務就齊了阿在餐飲業者身上所增加的在外送員身上所增加的全部就轉嫁在消費者身上就這樣阿所以"},{"start":7235.475,"end":7260.267,"text":"外送平台剛好這三主要扮演角色外送員：餐飲業者：消費者這三個重點都跟你說如果合併之後公盲到期會面臨的狀況就是這麼嚴重所以如果我們公平會的態度沒有拉出來"},{"start":7261.744,"end":7287.993,"text":"當然大家就會質疑啊所以主委我覺得我們台獨要跟我請測不過委員我們程序還是要照法定程序當然法定程序就是說你申報結合那你程序不齊備還是要通知法這些我們就齊備才能進入審議的程序主委你們就是都公平數所以所有的人民才會覺得公平會在幹什麼"},{"start":7289.281,"end":7311.774,"text":"你們在講程序的同時要把你的原則一併提到就是你外送平台你有權利依照程序來申辦這樣的一個合併可是我公平會一樣我會依照哪幾個原則嚴格審慎來審議這樣的一個合併案"},{"start":7315.885,"end":7343.123,"text":"如果你這兩個很清楚把它在一個平台當中正確的讓媒體知道誰會質疑你公平會的態度你公平會一直都講程序我們也一直談我們審查的面向就是剛才委員提到的這幾點這個我們審查的你是有問才講啊有問才講啊你們對外講都說他沒送進來他還沒送進來"},{"start":7346.141,"end":7360.437,"text":"以為還沒送進來就沒你的事還沒送進來是他程序還沒送進來不代表他沒在做相關的動作所以你更應該把你的態度公平會的態度拿高"},{"start":7361.721,"end":7387.662,"text":"所以為什麼我們每一次在公平會在做質詢在做預算審查的時候我們對公平會有那麼多的意見是因為你們的態度都不明你們態度都曖昧讓民眾很擔心讓消費者很擔心而且每一次所提到的任何正義性的問題你們最後都查無證據來結案"},{"start":7389.784,"end":7417.883,"text":"那民眾要你們幹什麼好 再一個主委你如果加強要查緝廣告不實的部分現在所有的媒體越來越多不同的一些宣傳手法那在這個部分廣告不實其實會造成很多消費者的損害"},{"start":7419.292,"end":7419.592,"text":"主動嗎?來,你們今年主動查了幾件?"},{"start":7443.017,"end":7443.817,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7462.104,"end":7483.701,"text":"人家檢舉910件 你們才主動查110件好 你們110件主動查查的總共有幾件 有處分我們去網路監控有一萬多件那看出來有問題的我們去查的主動的有一千多件一萬多件 然後最後釐清之後算"},{"start":7484.642,"end":7488.883,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7513.911,"end":7529.481,"text":"所以你看喔查控從網路查查一萬多件最後一千多件最後正式立案110件最後有處分的40件這是什麼事啊"},{"start":7531.032,"end":7531.892,"text":"910件民眾檢舉請問最後處分有幾件"},{"start":7551.558,"end":7563.163,"text":"今年查的今年還在就是今年處理的今年還在查是好所以今年900億之間都是今年的嗎我們我們剛剛提到是說今年收辦的有"},{"start":7564.517,"end":7566.578,"text":"910件目前還在查而且已經有處分的"},{"start":7585.131,"end":7586.952,"text":"10月份,今天是9月30號,剩10月11、12,所以現在1000多件才處分40件"},{"start":7606.892,"end":7615.398,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7636.152,"end":7636.552,"text":"請邀請主委請你主委"},{"start":7668.087,"end":7680.482,"text":"主委好,我們還是繼續來討論這個WhoPanda跟Uber Eats的這個事情那當時提出要併購的時候,大家引起各界非常"},{"start":7681.374,"end":7681.754,"text":"外送市場八成九成"},{"start":7711.117,"end":7738.838,"text":"會導致一家獨大所以本期要請教主委您的看法呢這個數字告訴你那您的看法呢如果第一大跟第二大結合將來就是一個市場它有獨佔的力量這個事實上會成全家一定的力量就八成九成嘛你也同意這樣的論點那所以要請教主委從公平會對於併購案的它有四個標準嘛您在哪四個標準啊"},{"start":7740.865,"end":7764.492,"text":"我們會看它結合以後對於店家、餐廳、消費者還有外送員的影響這第一個面向第二個就是說其他的潛在的競爭者有沒有可能因此就進不來參與競爭再來就是說提高價格的可能性"},{"start":7766.294,"end":7787.227,"text":"以及會不會跟其他的業者有聯合的行為這些都是會一起來考量那包括消費者外送員跟他抗衡的力量是不是談判力量就不對等這些都是我們要綜合判斷的因素您剛才所敘述的那麼如果在這兩家合併你同意合併的時候會不會產生這樣的現象"},{"start":7789.091,"end":7789.291,"text":"市場集中度"},{"start":7804.021,"end":7828.424,"text":"結合後併購方定價的能力第三個是合併後協同效果也就是聯合行為這個是最嚴肅的一個議題接下來就是市場的一個效益這是你基本的四大原則請你這四大原則你要背清楚所以這件事情到目前為止的進度到底是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":7831.469,"end":7851.489,"text":"第一 剛才我講的那個回答就是有沒有送案進來了 請教這兩家有沒有送案進來有送案進來 五月有遞件遞件 接下來呢遞件以後 因為文件不齊備 我們通知補正通知補正 是你在五月份送來 多久以前通知補正"},{"start":7853.054,"end":7855.175,"text":"本席要告訴你因為這個影響非常的巨大"},{"start":7879.228,"end":7886.993,"text":"現在的社會面向就已經有把外送員的金額下降"},{"start":7888.038,"end":7910.036,"text":"就已經有這樣的現象就已經有將這個合作廠商也要把他們的佣金要來提高所以最後的受害者就是消費者我們也希望達到三贏便利的一個三贏政策所以本席給你幾項具體的建議第一個必須要嚴審"},{"start":7911.817,"end":7932.346,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7932.446,"end":7954.821,"text":"第3是否會影響到員工薪資．跟受僱者．以真正的守護大眾的權利這三項本席再提醒我們公平會當然剛剛你回答的那個四部語言的四部也包含在這裡面所以既然理念一樣一定要好好的嚴審保障我們所有人的一個權利"},{"start":7956.062,"end":7957.903,"text":"請大家放心公平會會謹慎合理的來"},{"start":7973.252,"end":7979.614,"text":"嚴審這個案子好那接下來本校請教2023年2月15號修正的氣候變遷因應法那當然針對於溫室氣體的排放量這個減量的基礎那國際間大家都朝這個方向那在這種情況之下6月19號的媒體報導有出現了不少的溫室氣體查驗人員相關課程"},{"start":7998.819,"end":8015.966,"text":"讓民眾誤以為我受訓完我就能夠取得到這樣子的檢驗人員的license的一個證照但是環境部表示他跟你們公平會不斷的溝通認為此舉已經設為公平交易法的廣告不實"},{"start":8016.92,"end":8017.1,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8034.609,"end":8034.749,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8050.62,"end":8056.544,"text":"本席請問針對本席的提問也就是環境部跟您說不是上完課廣告就直接拿到license你知不知道這回事啊"},{"start":8076.361,"end":8096.309,"text":"這個實在是讓我們很訝異環境部已經公佈多次跟你們溝通他認為此舉已經違反了已經違反了公平交易法你們還到現在在這裡還沒有辦法回答本席你還讓民眾繼續被人家騙嗎你的功能在哪裡啊你知不知道環境部跟你講這個事情"},{"start":8105.72,"end":8131.155,"text":"探綜合的一些宣稱以罪如果有一些訓練課程讓大家有誤解的情況他已經告訴你了怎麼如果環境部已經告訴你多次告訴你他告訴你已經違法了不要再有人傷害你趕快去查清楚好不好我們政府的橫向部門都沒有再聯繫你讓我非常的訝異啊"},{"start":8132.697,"end":8145.387,"text":"請你趕快去查清楚告訴本席順便資料告訴本席再來一個議題國內呢我們現在的生活方式它豐滿的這個團購的方式對不對你們也是有"},{"start":8146.857,"end":8164.986,"text":"有史以來第一次在9月11號的這個報導也就是穿戴式的空氣淨潔期廠商結盟消費者消費團體那總共呢你們也罰了就是有史以來公平會一口氣處罰團購事業與共同合作銷售共5家廠商你們也罰了80萬的這個"},{"start":8171.169,"end":8171.549,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8196.562,"end":8196.742,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":8212.847,"end":8213.167,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8232.295,"end":8232.595,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":8246.892,"end":8249.655,"text":"主委 本期給你一個結論跟建議也就是說你好不容易手上頭一招"},{"start":8265.869,"end":8268.272,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8283.746,"end":8289.032,"text":"你們要著重在宣導告訴大家你像這樣的行為我已經開發了80萬喔你要宣導你現在開發了80萬有誰知道有誰知道少數人知道所以你只有發一個新聞稿誰給你看燈你應該要去找你怎麼樣宣導的管道"},{"start":8305.729,"end":8329.166,"text":"加強宣導的管道預防重瑜治療你讓社會大眾知道你不要亂搞不要讓人家受害我會處罰的這樣子至少可以有一點惡主作用認同嗎這個我認同認同你趕快去做好不好你把你的方案要怎麼樣去推廣讓大家知道不要再犯法了這一點我覺得非常的重要你把你的方案詳細順便資料給本席好不好謝謝"},{"start":8338.282,"end":8339.013,"text":"好現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8512.1,"end":8512.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8696.442,"end":8718.964,"text":"好現在正式開始開會請鄭天才委員質詢主席委員我們請李主委請李主委"},{"start":8725.848,"end":8752.139,"text":"好主委好辛苦了這個還是要跟主委還有公平會的所有的同仁網路的詐騙其實他就是一個交易他用交易的手段然後去做詐騙這個這樣的一個情形非常非常的普遍"},{"start":8754.697,"end":8769.407,"text":"臺灣已經這個被詐騙的金額最高的一個國家這樣的一個數字這個臺灣被詐金額佔GDP高達0.9%是已開發國家的第一換算絕對金額高達2000億台幣這麼高所以這個部分是一個"},{"start":8784.941,"end":8811.352,"text":"當初公平教育委員會成立的時候或是我們的公平教育法制定的當時沒有這樣的一個情形所以要以時計進到底法不周延如何去修正這個應該是要現在都是交給警察單位"},{"start":8813.345,"end":8837.503,"text":"主要是警察單位在處理這是錯誤的所以這個部分如果我們看公平交易委員會組織法第一條行政院為維護交易自信以消費者權益所以要成立這個公平會公平交易委員會組織法第二條"},{"start":8839.993,"end":8867.809,"text":"這裏面掌理的事項如果跟剛才講的有比較有接近的話屬於的話不是接近屬於的話違反公平交易法案件之調查及處分所以像這樣的一個情形怎麼樣去去處理公平交易法第二條事業公司的比較少這種情形網絡詐騙"},{"start":8869.448,"end":8874.931,"text":"公平交易法第25條除本法另有規定者外事業亦不得為其他足以影響交易自息之期望"},{"start":8899.386,"end":8927.545,"text":"期望就是欺騙嘛對不對期望就是欺騙嘛所以這樣的一個情形之下這個公平會到底你們這怎麼樣去積極的如果法不足就修法人力不足就增加人力好 主委"},{"start":8930.137,"end":8945.692,"text":"公平法的任務就如同您剛才提出來的我們是在維持一個公平競爭所以不可以有這個不公平競爭其中就是您提到不實廣告不實廣告這部分也是我們查處的重要的重點"},{"start":8946.713,"end":8974.693,"text":"那不時如果涉及到詐欺詐騙這個又是一個不只是行政責任這是一個刑事責任我們就會移送司法機關去調查該搜索該調查的這個司法機關會去調查那確實公平會對於商品或服務不實的廣告我們是要應該積極去查處移送司法當然是應該所以怎麼樣公平會要去主動"},{"start":8976.414,"end":8996.939,"text":"主動有很多種,已經發生的事情要主動,還沒有發生的要怎麼去讓人民去防範更重要,對不對,讓人民去防範更重要,就像過去多層次傳銷開始很慢,"},{"start":9001.222,"end":9013.839,"text":"這個這個這個非常多的情況的時候你們有多很多的這個氣氣這個的先導讓人民知道怎麼樣去防範怎麼樣不要被受騙"},{"start":9015.396,"end":9037.623,"text":"所以你們現在這個部分有沒有在做有第一個我們在除了在電視的跑馬燈或者是在這個跟大學跟司法機關還有在跟民眾之間我們都有定期的宣導會座談會這個一直是我們在做的一件事情我們全省各地都有在做宣導好這個你們除了"},{"start":9042.361,"end":9060.581,"text":"除了我先把這個你們的對25條規定如何判斷事業行為是否過程第25條之期往或顯示公平。這裡面你們也判斷期往應考量的事項都有寫了。"},{"start":9062.233,"end":9090.649,"text":"以積極欺瞞或消極隱匿重要交易資訊自引人錯誤之方式從事交易之行為冒充或是不實或是隱匿像這樣的你們要因為這個你們這個已經放很久了這樣的那個處理的一個原則放很久了或是要點你們要以時計進"},{"start":9092.293,"end":9120.639,"text":"要去分析現況打些案件哪些案件網路哪些案件是已經怎麼樣去把它做一個修正更符合這個一個現況然後叫你們在做宣導的時候也會比較完備所以這個部分是要去加油的是"},{"start":9125.125,"end":9127.589,"text":"這個公平交易法42條違反第25條有這個處罰你們對於這個違反25條有沒有相關處罰的這些"},{"start":9138.581,"end":9140.402,"text":"你是不是把這個類型有哪些類型"},{"start":9167.705,"end":9173.268,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9190.455,"end":9190.935,"text":"對於這個違反這個的"},{"start":9225.292,"end":9244.922,"text":"我們要看他這個行為有沒有涉及到詐欺或是其他的這個法律禁止的行為會看這個案情來決定要不要移送或者是由公平法來處罰"},{"start":9246.348,"end":9273.391,"text":"所以你們是折衣嗎?還是兩者並行?如果涉及到刑事,那因為司法機關調查就會移送給司法機關如果是行政處罰的適用範圍,我們就會去處理所以你們是折衣?如果依這個處罰,依公平交易法是12條處罰,你們就不移送了?如果沒有涉及到刑事的行為是不移送"},{"start":9273.991,"end":9292.546,"text":"那你們也提供那個你們到底移送了哪些類型那後來這個這個法院判決會告訴你們嗎最後的結果法院的判決會跟我們會處理是不是也提供資料好的謝謝"},{"start":9305.136,"end":9306.638,"text":"請邱志偉 召委諮詢"},{"start":9335.508,"end":9357.804,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請李主委請李主委主委 先問一下那個每個月都會問 高通他的新聞承諾跟這個臺灣企業支持這些的方案目前之前狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":9359.738,"end":9381.685,"text":"核解方案都有照核解條件在進行那去年也已經這個有沒有打折扣或者執行不力都有照這個7月進行都有還有幾年要執行執行的時間5年已經執行完畢而且我們把所有這個核解方案執行的結果那評估都已經上網公告"},{"start":9382.409,"end":9401.041,"text":"所以對他們的相關的承諾或者這個之前相關的賠償你們都可以接受他目前所做的最後的結果都照和解條件在進行後面還有沒有那這些和解條件有些是延續性的會繼續去處理"},{"start":9403.317,"end":9429.508,"text":"還有哪些需要去從和解條件再去跟我們說明他其實兩個方案啦一個是就是跟業者的授權的關係一個是這個增進台灣的一些相關的這個科技的發展那目前在持續進行的比如說一些創新競賽還有跟學校的一些合作這些方案都是他們承諾嘛是那現在你知道他要他要合併什麼他要購併人家公司你知道嗎"},{"start":9433.015,"end":9456.072,"text":"有看到這個新聞,詳細情形你應該了解,他過病當然會對他承諾會不會造成影響啊他過病的機能非常大喔是,這個我們會注意七百多億,不是代表內,美金內七百多億人要過病,他是如果是自願還是非自願你要了解,那會不會影響到他之後承諾旅行的能力,會不會"},{"start":9457.845,"end":9484.617,"text":"因為現在我們還沒有看到這個結核申報的案件那我們會注意我們提到的這些事情那那個是跟我們無關啦他是要購併英特爾啦對不對我是說他去購併對他公司的營運會不會對我們的執行我們的相關程度會不會受影響對啦如果是真的成案會不會對我們執行能力會造成影響這到時候我們要會去做一些評估好我們去看一下下一頁"},{"start":9488.072,"end":9496.829,"text":"這個 再下一頁這個兩家外送平台的市場界定你完成了嗎"},{"start":9499.637,"end":9525.731,"text":"我們過去市場界定是外送餐飲平台那現在市場怎麼界定我們還在評估當中一直評估評估很久那這個要整個資料齊備整個資料齊備以後我們各界關切的這些議題會通盤來處理那時間點能不能說一下你要市場界定什麼時候完成總不能無限期啊總要有個時間表啊主委市場界定有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":9529.155,"end":9550.864,"text":"這個跟委員說明一下我們的程序是這樣子齁文件齊備之後進入委員會去討論市場界定也是委員會討論的一環我們目前請高通公司抱歉 請那個輔本大補件的期間是11月8號那我們會看他補件的情形應該是備齊了 備齊了才會正式受理"},{"start":9557.846,"end":9558.806,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9586.635,"end":9612.47,"text":"這個比較大的案件通常...我知道啦,這是跨國的,當然也不能無限期啊然後你四戰後,結合後的市佔率會不會超過五成?結合後市佔率會,會超過你看看過去啊,你處理這個購併案的結果只要大概五成,你大概都會禁止結合你看一下資料只要結合後市佔率超過五成,你大概就是禁止"},{"start":9614.23,"end":9622.3,"text":"4層以下你大概都會有條件通過你從結果論來看那你這個結合之後你們4戰6戰多少應該有8層以上這樣你看這個結果會成不成"},{"start":9628.633,"end":9654.876,"text":"這還要委員會討論我現在沒有辦法我看你們過去處理的結果來看嘛過去喔你只要有50%你就是禁止結合啦過去結合以後齁如果他市場力很集中我們在審議的時候會非常的這個謹慎另外企業運用AI收集消費者資訊並進行這個差別取價這部分會影響相關的法規這你們要注意一下這是我們會注意"},{"start":9655.657,"end":9675.82,"text":"B to B 你們用20條第二款,那B to C的部分,您這個要不要涉及修法,可能自己要考慮一下。主委,您知道嗎?我知道,我知道。你20條在裡面,你那個B to B大概可以來處理,但是B to C的部分呢,這個差別大於你沒有辦法試用啊。"},{"start":9676.874,"end":9705.157,"text":"那未來這個大家都已經提供給你這個可能會發生的問題嘛我們會看看他跟競爭的影響啦最後還是回到這個競爭面你要先了解說那個人工智慧基本法第11條這相關的規定是不是可以符合你這個會對你的業務不會造成影響是這我們有小組在討論這個我們有一個公民會有一個AI他人工智慧基本法草案在立法過程中有沒有問公民會的意見"},{"start":9706.65,"end":9710.172,"text":"人工智慧基本法訂出來之後你公平會可能會變成消費者進行個人化的定價這帶來風險"},{"start":9736.817,"end":9742.082,"text":"AI的發展跟各部會的法規的協調調和是一個非常重要的要去關注的你要去跟主管機關去反映"},{"start":9766.248,"end":9794,"text":"現在就是說以目前來以目前的狀態公平法的規範他如果涉及到競爭的議題目前可以處理那當然細部有沒有不足的地方我們再來評估是不是可以針對這部分你提一個書面報告給我是一個月之內好的好不好那回到剛才啊你這個跨國企業集合案我看你時間都沒有一個時間表然後這個每次問你還在收集資料還在提供資料"},{"start":9795.786,"end":9796.267,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9815.748,"end":9841.837,"text":"按主管機關審查的時間法律上是有規定的就是30天文件期備30天可是補件資料那個補件的時間要看各案件的不同文件期備的準備期你沒有限制啊就現在你還沒有立案嘛因為每個案件的情況不一樣我要遵守這個發言人的這個時間時間到我就要遵守這個我當然知道我要以身作則"},{"start":9849.737,"end":9875.599,"text":"請蔡易瑜委員質詢好,他換鍾嘉斌好,那我們現在請鍾嘉斌委員質詢優先主席在黨委員先進,列席總經事長、官員、會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體、自由女士先生有請主委請李主委"},{"start":9882.115,"end":9906.216,"text":"主委好 時間很緊迫 我很簡短的問 最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟Panda它的併購問題你覺得為了保持市場競爭 我們應該評估的交易關係者有哪些至少包括外送員 消費者 還有餐廳所以我這邊少了一個外送員 對不對所以你連外送員都考慮進去 我覺得很好好 那我們往下看"},{"start":9906.946,"end":9933.217,"text":"其實我這邊過去曾經舉過例子在美國對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成七個公司你覺得這是根據什麼法你所了解的?因為AT&T是獨佔嘛它在美國它是一個算是有限電視有限通訊的部分那您覺得台灣有在公平會我們除了合併之外有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨佔事業強制拆分嗎?"},{"start":9933.888,"end":9951.875,"text":"我們會看案情那你認為過去我們在核准有線電視系統業者的時候我們把它規劃成51個區那除了少數區之外當年每個區都是一個業者你覺得這樣符不符合我們一個公平交易所要保持的市場秩序"},{"start":9954.08,"end":9954.34,"text":"有線電視系統業者"},{"start":9975.919,"end":9991.273,"text":"公共的網路這網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的加上使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的所以政府當然可以予以限制那你覺得這個外送平台外送員是不是使用公家的道路公共道路"},{"start":9993.154,"end":10010.725,"text":"有,一定要在馬路上送嘛,他用的都是公共基礎建設嘛所以他的營業的範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上所以政府構不構成政府介入去過問這個外送平台使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的一個依據"},{"start":10014.018,"end":10038.311,"text":"不管他有沒有用到公共建設,所有的事業都要符合市場經濟資訊。是,但是他如果用公共建設的時候,我們政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例,UBER EAT或HOOPENTA他有沒有用到資訊流,有嘛。他的副管要用金流,都是要網路基礎建設嘛。他的物流用公共道路嘛。他目前的大量使用公共基礎設施。哪一個類似的情況我舉個例,往下看。"},{"start":10039.175,"end":10067.395,"text":"好 有線電視因為這樣的關係他有自然獨佔的行程所以要求政府介入再往下看那麼我們在關於我們的這個外送平台當中副院長主持的消保會當中他規定了兩件事情第一個他認為他在資訊流的部分還有第三方資物的部分物流跟資訊流他希望速發部來主管但是外送員他說叫做貨運業屬於交通部的特許事業你認同這樣的一個主管權責嗎"},{"start":10069.262,"end":10088.569,"text":"為什麼是貨運業在交通部有他的主管法規?對,他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運那至於跟這個他的外送平台之間是一種承攬關係還是一種勞僱關係當然那是另外一件事情但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業好,那我們現在看"},{"start":10089.164,"end":10114.865,"text":"所以我們政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費運費包括兩種一種是消費者付的第一種是外送員拿到的那這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平台跟外送資訊公司跟外送平台下單然後下面有一個貨運公司將這個餐飲從餐廳由外送員送到顧客的手上這裡面包含了很多的部分我們往下看"},{"start":10115.706,"end":10116.187,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10131.5,"end":10151.576,"text":"換言之,未來你們在審查WhoPanda跟UberEat,它不是只是審查一個資訊平台、兩個資訊平台合併與否,它事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併,還包含了全台灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務,要不要做一個整併的問題,您同意嗎?"},{"start":10152.617,"end":10173.533,"text":"我想就是說各個法規怎麼規範就由各個法規那回到不管有沒有結合都是從競爭秩序是競爭秩序你認為在一個縣市當中兩個客運公司的競爭你們要考慮它的市場秩序嗎?都要考慮好那你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到台北市嗎?"},{"start":10175.868,"end":10192.677,"text":"理論上是不太可能因為餐飲有它的實效性所以理論上如果是貨運平台外送的這個貨運物流的階段往下看它事實上它是一個各區域各自分開的所以未來如果這兩家外送平台他們在談合併的時候"},{"start":10195.979,"end":10219.246,"text":"你們不管最後做於同意或不同意都應該思考到未來你們所關心的剛剛你講的外送員的權益他是附著在一個貨運地區性的貨運的一個業務上那這樣的貨運業務必須合理的投射回來你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待"},{"start":10220.026,"end":10228.874,"text":"金流的部分他們如果兩家合併超過20億就不是歸速發部第三方支付所主管會歸金管會主管這你們知道嗎"},{"start":10230.66,"end":10250.109,"text":"你們知道對不對 如果他們兩個合併的話 金流的部分 他們的業務主管機關就要轉移了 就要從哪裡 從速發部轉移到金管會了金管會是我同意 那就是另外一件事情 但是物流的部分 要不要拆分 公平會要不要做出一個明白的表示"},{"start":10251.719,"end":10269.42,"text":"在審結合的部分你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合我想這個到時候要再整個來看好那今天本席要提醒你既然一開始你就告訴我這一次的他們兩家的結合不是只有金流的部分不是設餐廳不是設消費者"},{"start":10270.741,"end":10271.001,"text":"請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":10308.066,"end":10328.862,"text":"主席首先有請我們的李主委請李主委主委我現在頭很大會麻煩你曉得有時候你們公平委員會做一個決定"},{"start":10330.218,"end":10358.237,"text":"會讓一家公司請假上場無以為盡那苗栗縣有一家直銷公司我也請你來了解整個狀況人家好好的一家公司在經營但是你公平委員會裡面堅持送到檢調單位還變成擴大偵辦結果這家公司打了8年的官司都要到最高法院打贏了但是財產也被查封什麼資料都被查封"},{"start":10359.448,"end":10373.356,"text":"阿現在要重新開倉會困難重重我替他找每一家銀行說重新大家都說有紀錄不願意辦阿這現在我管事派阿你公平委員會跟我提出提告"},{"start":10374.682,"end":10397.609,"text":"結果贏了,你們都不用負責任。人家要再繼續再經營,也得不到尋求解決的辦法。你也有一點辦法,把民間的企業稅就提高,就升到檢調單位,現在要怎麼來辦?我跟你講,我花了大概4、5個月,帶他到一家銀行,去銀行都不辦。"},{"start":10398.792,"end":10403.315,"text":"實在你這個提出跟人家送到檢調單位最後打死了你們真的要出來負責任啊?你 看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":10415.526,"end":10436.978,"text":"那個委員您講的是具體是哪一家公司?清雲直銷公司慶餘嘛,就是那個骨灰攤那個骨灰攤,那個案件我會了解,來處長你說他最後打贏了吧,最後法院打贏了嘛,這間公司危機倒閉了不是個案,這個是由你們發動的"},{"start":10442.142,"end":10445.904,"text":"我聽不清楚戴著口罩我真的聽不清楚你講的靠近麥克風一點吶"},{"start":10456.317,"end":10475.348,"text":"是,跟委員報告,這個案子呢,它是在我們102年的6月,我們有接獲這個慶允公司,它涉及到這個變質。沒有啦,我不講那個內容,只有你們提告,官司打贏了,所有受審要如何來負責,你們公平委員會要如何去負這個責任。"},{"start":10476.889,"end":10477.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10497.098,"end":10524.195,"text":"這個剪掉當中去處理一家豪華公司你們提出來要充斥很充足最後人家打贏了阿你要如何解釋不要隨隨便便不要為自己辯護那司法的判決他贏了表示你們錯了你來跟我一起討論來解決我帶你去你們要負責任我只有一句話不是這樣提高下去沒你們的事"},{"start":10526.414,"end":10548.585,"text":"人家辛辛苦苦幾十年打拼出來的事業還在這裡毀於一旦你們有沒有良心啊注意一下這樣的情形好不好不要講說你們辦案的經過我們也一清二楚好不好那麼堅持結果導致一個廠商倒閉啊養了很多人啊"},{"start":10551.602,"end":10576.347,"text":"這位要不要一起來負這個責任 不然每天來找我 我的頭很大就是說公務員遇到有涉法的案件移送檢調單位那至於他有罪無罪或有沒有違法就是由司法機關才認定結果是沒有違法那基本上公務員我們沒有這個調查的權利沒有辦法百分之百保證他違法才移送這個還是要去進行司法機關的調查"},{"start":10579.551,"end":10606.82,"text":"好不好這個委員還不如申請公平也打不贏這個時間太長了起碼我打贏了你們送檢調單位也幫我們負責責任發委因為我們不知道法院會判決有罪無罪但是我們發現涉及到違法行為我們沒有起訴我們是把這個疑似犯法案件檢察官一定要接調查要怎麼樣"},{"start":10608.669,"end":10609.61,"text":"那再來今天最熱門的話題"},{"start":10636.227,"end":10656.04,"text":"那個Uber Eats跟Panda Food 307億兩家都外商公司我現在發覺臺灣的官員都沒有兩隻腳很硬尤其高通的事件給我感觸非常深法環可以當作說用投資來轉變我等一下時間可能不夠"},{"start":10657.421,"end":10678.358,"text":"那你們確定要怎樣?兩家起來,外商以求以勤。那個李知偉,我不曉得你有沒有擔當會讓他們合併嘛。占了將近80%的市場。兩家外商大公司來,你受得了嗎?從高通裡面就看出你執政黨就永遠這樣,碰到外人的話。"},{"start":10679.349,"end":10699.263,"text":"就腳就軟下來,碰到臺灣的廠商就冰冰的砍殺我們不會有這種差別待遇,都是照法律來審查我跟您講,看到您覺得很遺憾,您覺得他來拜託的那個樣子,我們心中很難過,你們都不覺得難過公務員到現在我一向都是依據法律來處理"},{"start":10705.275,"end":10728.62,"text":"阿你這個關於Uber Eats跟呼搭配你會不會同意阿?大家議論紛紛阿我是覺得不要有競爭才有進步不可能給他們聯合結合在一起那外商要吃你很容易不要講的時候板口的逆道德要賺台灣的錢什麼手段都可以使得出來你看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":10729.798,"end":10733.164,"text":"公平會我們一定會針對這麼重大的結合案件依法審慎處理不會因為這個國人或者是外商有不同的處理"},{"start":10743.476,"end":10748.541,"text":"臺灣改變的形態,吃的形態也改變很快,慎重慎重。不要碰到外山就腳軟了,什麼都答應。"},{"start":10765.959,"end":10790.41,"text":"關於高通快要結束了我看你的報告我也不知道你到底在說什麼講得很多但是其實那個7億的賠償單位投資到處去挖角拿這個錢去蓋他們的大樓這叫做投資你到現在為止他的晶片所有的挖坑政府機關他也不便於抱怨"},{"start":10791.718,"end":10819.007,"text":"他的競爭對手就是蓮花科兩以外人不以家農7億工研院藝人的預算大概就是210億剛好跟這個金額差不多你們這樣前去的臺灣沒有一點利益就已經絕世了就媽媽夫婦不用了事過去我們都有那個跨部會在處理我們在這裡都照這個和解條件在做國科會他們的社會誰敢去得罪他"},{"start":10820.79,"end":10843.401,"text":"聯發科是自立自強更生起來的長到世界上沒有你把他保持下去做成了集體會議開講座好政府當時我都不知道怎麼想我都不能懷疑外商都不能懷疑美國論美國講什麼要跟著什麼你炒人造成聯發科競爭很大之餘7億"},{"start":10845.32,"end":10845.5,"text":"主委"},{"start":10877.761,"end":10889.055,"text":"請紅夢開委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請李主委請李主委"},{"start":10896.069,"end":10915.337,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想很多民眾以及本席以及委員都很關心這個外送平台的整併合併事件然後併購案件那我想先確認一下因為上午你也回答相關是說他們是在今年5月有送件是不是是那5月30號就已經要求他們不見是"},{"start":10916.477,"end":10943.257,"text":"那到目前為止都還沒有補件他有陸續補正但是還有一些不清楚的部分陸續補所以陸續補正陸續補但是一直我們通知補正就是他補來那我們再看一看有些需要補正我們陸續要求他補正那我想請教是我們公平會沒有把他需要補齊的所有資料一次跟他講清楚還是說他們是慢慢拖就是今天送一個明天送一個"},{"start":10943.746,"end":10946.531,"text":"那我們一般來講過去到現在法令規定我們這樣子的一個審理案件最長我們允許多久的補件期間"},{"start":10958.032,"end":10983.68,"text":"我們沒有這個限定補正的期間那補件完畢正式受理我們有這個審查的法定期間是審查法定時間所以到目前為止都還沒有算因為補件期間每個企業大小補件的情形不一致所以我們盡量讓公司有補件的機會這個文件越齊備我們的這個審查品質才能夠做審理"},{"start":10985.14,"end":11005.917,"text":"好那之前有提到是說會承諾要開公聽會或是相關來去了解我們不管是產業面本席之前也提過嘛就說這個外送平台整併無最重要是我們要看到的是餐廳業者能不能因此而保障他的權益外送員能不能保障權益以及消費者三方面"},{"start":11006.698,"end":11034.293,"text":"那這個公聽會什麼時候會開始我們公聽會已經開了北中南東全部都開了那除了這個立法院委員也很關心有開公聽會委員有開委員的部分但是公平會自己本身公平會從6月開始就開始展開了北中南東那目前大家的一個消息跟訊息大家的這個政法意見都有都有原則上是譬如說"},{"start":11036.114,"end":11053.427,"text":"外送員的關切、消費者的關切還有餐廳的關切這一部分意見都有了那所以是不是就我們大家的了解嘛最主要大家還是希望是說能夠保障這三方面的權益嘛外送平台在這中間當作是一個橋樑但最主要它是串聯"},{"start":11054.688,"end":11081.699,"text":"餐廳消費者以及外送員三方面的一個權益所以說是不是能夠要保障這三方面的權益不要因為說他們這樣的一個診病而有所受損這才是我們公平會的重點我們的審查重點是從這個競爭交易秩序的改變來看那當然您提到的外送員消費者平台的這些都是考量因素但是我們最終還是要看整個結合的經濟利益有沒有大於限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":11083.22,"end":11109.996,"text":"提高價格的能力會不會跟其他業者聯合的可能性還有消費者店家跟外送員跟他談判的能力是不是有什麼樣的改變會綜合評估所以你這樣講那不就是很明顯的嗎因為現在我們也看到過去有名的錢櫃好樂迪的一個合併到時候公平會還是不允許嘛是不是那錢櫃跟好樂迪他們合併他們最後加起來市佔率有多少"},{"start":11110.492,"end":11111.533,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11134.059,"end":11155.701,"text":"我想你一定會這樣講啦但是本席要提醒啦其實最重點在於是國際社會裡面最近這段時間有沒有去找說國際社會裡面其他國家有這個外送平台的一個診病的一個案例其他國家是有啦譬如說在韓國在其他國家有那我想每個國家的情況是不同"},{"start":11156.221,"end":11163.929,"text":"所以有些國家是有成功 有些國家是沒有成功嗎國家會要求做一些這個條件 負條件 情況是不一樣"},{"start":11164.477,"end":11190.399,"text":"是 所以其實 主委本席的重點還是強調啊為什麼我們會點出來就是因為過去到現在我們已經很關心而更重要的是本席也認為你既然公平會現在要做這個審查你也講到了其實未來的方向其實還是希望是市場能夠健全的而不希望是說有壟斷的一個狀況發生那就應該還要有一些相關的一個法令工具能夠來做使用"},{"start":11190.839,"end":11211.594,"text":"而勞動部也有要求說公平會應該在審查合併案的過程裡面要把相關部會都納進來決策的過程嘛對不對有有我們也都有徵詢他們的意見是所以說未來你們在做審查的時候是不是幾個行政部門的部分也應該都要同時的納入而不是只是聽委員的聲音"},{"start":11213.815,"end":11238.493,"text":"我們跨部會的意見都會一起呈現讓委員去了解那本席也說本席現在跟幾個委員我們都共同希望能夠推動外送專法的一個訂令為什麼因為不管它合併與否外送專法其實才是真真正正能夠法制化並且讓很多我們有疑慮的地方"},{"start":11239.033,"end":11267.249,"text":"包含是說他即便是他們沒有合併但是兩家業者其實就算是這個市場的一個一二名也算是市佔率非常高如果兩家有默契想要去做調整不管是減少外送員的一個權益或是提高這個餐廳的一個支出那其實某種無形當中市場也都很容易被壟斷所以外送專法才是能夠真真正正保障並且訂立一些最基本的法制的一個門檻"},{"start":11268.584,"end":11270.5,"text":"主委針對這部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":11271.152,"end":11300.165,"text":"我想外送專法他可能涉及到非常多的面向那這個會應該是各方面去評估來決定是不是需要專法是啊但是本席現在要提醒的是說就公平會在審理這個合併案件的過程當中你們會有提出如果說未來真的有這個方向的話也有可能有提出一些限制的條件但限制的條件都不及一個法令的一個要求以及限制來著有保障"},{"start":11301.147,"end":11301.807,"text":"請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":11330.462,"end":11333.703,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請這個李主委請李主委主委好本來也是想要跟你說這個外送平台的事情 我們就看整個早上很多立委都這樣都問了啦齁 我也沒有比較高門 所以我來換別題啦齁 這個主委"},{"start":11355.157,"end":11360.455,"text":"事實上歐盟吼他們針對現在進行看牌然後嗯"},{"start":11362.264,"end":11387.472,"text":"歐盟有針對這個今年年初的時候歐洲議會593票比21票壓倒性的一次都通過一個反票率法令就是說他為了很多企業說我都符合現在的淨零碳排我是屬於現在的一個環保的一個企業"},{"start":11388.012,"end":11393.414,"text":"就是說企業會用這樣的話術然後來告訴消費者然後讓消費者說他是一個比較符合這個零碳牌的他一個比較符合這一個比較先進的一個產業然後讓消費者去購買他的商品可是事實上就有發現了很多弊端就像過去歐盟曾經發現有一家製造衣服的很有名的一個品牌"},{"start":11417.082,"end":11441.09,"text":"他說他都用回收材料來做成他的衣服但是後來被查出來他的回收材料佔他的衣服的裡面只是一小部分所以他就有涉及到了誤導消費者然後最近還有一個就是奧德奧地利航空他說他都用永久的航空燃料他是叫SAF然後所以他已經建行了實踐了這個碳中和的飛行"},{"start":11443.547,"end":11462.28,"text":"然後後來也被認定說這個對消費者有欺騙所以他被提告甚至後來直接被開罰了所以歐盟現在針對這件事情他覺得說哇現在大家都把ESG都把這個淨零碳排標榜的這樣非常的神聖偉大"},{"start":11462.84,"end":11473.01,"text":"阿所以企業也都說 我有怕 我有怕阿甚至台灣現在很多產業勒他也都不知道所謂淨零碳排他是整個有一個路徑的問題就是說我一個商品我從這一個生產端就是說我位"},{"start":11480.197,"end":11493.541,"text":"原料到最後產品的形成它是不是有符合所謂的那個淨零碳排減碳的效果啊有的企業不知道他說我就辦公室我這裡全部人多兩個我辦公室的電我用綠電這樣我就符合符合這個淨零碳排啊然後我就說我是誰綠色能源綠色能源企業啊就自己說啊所以主委針對我剛講的這個狀況那我們公平會有打算做怎樣的因應嗎"},{"start":11510.089,"end":11511.01,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11532.184,"end":11555.017,"text":"這個碳排你其實要先盤點要盤點我放多少量我要移除多少量那加減不足才去買碳權等等所以如果企業他只是簡單的講說我符合這個淨零碳排我符合碳中和這個資訊的接受不清楚的是應該講清楚是啊所以就會有這樣的狀況因為事實上企業可能他會用很多名詞都天海中作戰"},{"start":11556.117,"end":11574.364,"text":"環境友善,氣候中和,我使用可分解的原料,或者是生態友善,哇,這件事每天都很漂亮。消費者,我們這樣的消費者,我們也希望說我們的消費行為可以讓全球減碳盡一份責任,我也要去買這樣的產品啊。"},{"start":11575.837,"end":11601.036,"text":"所以他們說他用什麼材料你就要看是那個材料但是用這些材料不等於碳中和所以這個環境部有這個指引那如果這個企業他有這些宣稱結果跟事實不符不符的話那就是用公平交易委員所以主委我是要問你的態度因為台灣也是台灣雖然我們不是歐盟沒有向他們走到說歐盟他們是要施要立法"},{"start":11601.877,"end":11629.5,"text":"他們叫做用法令的方式所以他是在2026年要完成這樣的法律所以他認為說雖然淨零碳牌是一個目標但是不能欺騙消費者依然是一個最重要的事情那我們台灣的態度呢我想這個全世界都會遇到台灣現在也看到很多建築業標榜他是綠建築但是綠建築的標準在哪裡也許建築法歸有"},{"start":11630.821,"end":11654.673,"text":"但是對於消費者而言他接受到的這些資訊是否是公平的他有辦法自己很清楚的知道這個資訊可能他的訊息沒有給你完整他只是部分使用綠電他沒有事實上他的生產過程並不是整個都是符合這個碳排的一個效果"},{"start":11655.373,"end":11678.291,"text":"阿這個東西 公平會我們要有一個態度嘛就是說他們如果宣稱不實 環境部的法令沒有特別的規定 這公平會有處理空間阿你不實 你要講什麼就要做到什麼 這個在公平法是可以處理的這第一類 第二類 我這裡面有講 那現在有很多的人也跳出來說我要開課程"},{"start":11679.737,"end":11697.157,"text":"因為我要教這些企業怎樣可以達到淨零怎樣是可以把碳盤採你們的產品怎樣可以碳中和然後就有很多人出來開課那這個開課的過程基本上他也沒有辦法讓這些企業因為上了這些課後"},{"start":11697.958,"end":11711.33,"text":"他就可以取得相關的認證或者是怎樣的證書但是他們在於開課的時候他們都會說我們是怎樣的我們是怎樣經過認證過的所以就會產生很多類似這樣的一個詐欺因為他們這個課程相對很貴"},{"start":11719.797,"end":11744.165,"text":"這公平會這件事要不要管就是說他如果說他上了這個課可以拿到什麼認證結果沒有那我們會去了解你是講的那個認證是什麼認證那如果民使不符這個在公平網也是有介入的空間注意我要跟大家講這個事情會越來越多這個你不用懷疑因為整個國家整個全世界全球都是這樣在走啊所以每一個企業第一自身有壓力"},{"start":11745.88,"end":11772.966,"text":"第二企業也想要讓消費者相信他們是有做到的可是事實上他們有沒有做到這件事情是一個大的問號因為他們需要第三方的驗證包括這個第三方的驗證是不是真的符合這個也有問題所以你現在就是說驗證公司這間公司是什麼來歷的他是阿薩布魯的公司還是他真的全世界走得通的驗證的公司"},{"start":11774.361,"end":11789.634,"text":"這個你們也必須要,你們都要查清楚啊,你不能夠整個,大家都在推我們碳費開始課證,企業開始說好,我們大家都要,已經有這個碳費的壓力了,大家都要改善,除了改善的時候很多人都要被詐騙去,會發生喔"},{"start":11794.984,"end":11796.105,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11825.305,"end":11839.499,"text":"我告訴你 這事情我們 現在我是說的比較輕鬆 不過這些事我敢預測 未來 它這是變一個選學 啊這個選學會變成一門很大的生意 啊既然變很大的生意 它就有很多個人是詐騙的 所以我們要去杜絕 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":11854.845,"end":11855.366,"text":"有請主委 請你主委"},{"start":11874.175,"end":11899.117,"text":"委員好主委好這個外送平台Uber Eats說要用307億元收購第一大的業者Full Panda那目前這兩家是台灣外送平台產業當中最大的兩家嘛對不對那合併之後市佔率大概是台灣整體外送市場的百分之多少"},{"start":11901.699,"end":11902.02,"text":"市場的結構會改變"},{"start":11922.132,"end":11939.57,"text":"那已經超過公平會認定的單一獨佔廠商的標準了嘛對不對遠遠超過啦 對不對所以未來我覺得公平會在審議要不要許可合併的時候真的要非常審慎去考慮那除了說市場秩序公平競爭"},{"start":11940.791,"end":11964.906,"text":"也要去思考今天對國內相關的業者消費者乃至於外送勞工的一個權益的影響我覺得公平會都要審慎的思考要麻煩我們的李主委那麼事實上剛剛我們主委已經講兩大龍頭業者合併後的市佔率是超過八成也已經超過了公平法對於獨佔者的規定"},{"start":11966.047,"end":11980.339,"text":"那麼對於相關同業者就可能會產生不公平競爭的疑慮那麼我們就以過去公平會處理的案例來看看目前這個申請案還沒進到公平會"},{"start":11983.624,"end":12012.535,"text":"已經到公平會議但是文件還沒有齊備我們沒有正式授禮還沒正式授禮文件未齊備我想以過去的一個狀況來問問主委那您對於這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的一個這個結合那麼合併的這個事情你們的態度看法是什麼過去國內的KTV有兩大龍頭是錢貴跟好樂迪對不對是那這兩家的合計市佔率是大概是多少"},{"start":12014.278,"end":12028.551,"text":"有超過5成因為各縣市不一樣我看的資料是達到7成啦他們申請也非常合併非常多次嘛那公平會準了嗎沒有準理由是什麼我們整個評估經濟利益跟縣市競爭的不利益那當時個別這個不準的理由可能要再進一步"},{"start":12038.902,"end":12068.02,"text":"我看了一下資料 除了你剛剛講的以外簡單講就是合併之後的市場力量太大了啦然後呢 可能對於會減少對上游唱片發行業支付版權的費用也可能會同時提高下游KTV消費者唱歌的費用因為他們會居於很大的一個價格的一個談判競爭優勢嘛那既然這個錢櫃跟好樂迪會有這個問題請問Uber Eats跟Food Panda會不會也有同樣的問題"},{"start":12073.293,"end":12096.439,"text":"市場力變大了以後將來Uber Eats提價的能力還有對它的利害關係人談判力量的能力這個都會再考量我這樣講這兩個國際外送平台龍頭它已經有很大的技術跟科技的優勢就本來市場力量其實就很大了現在就很大了"},{"start":12097.159,"end":12098.52,"text":"每單抽取商品價格的百分之多少 有掌握嗎?"},{"start":12111.169,"end":12133.488,"text":"外送費大概30到40或是28到38不等要看這個餐廳的結構跟他的客戶數大概所以28到40都可能嘛對不對那這比例是非常高的囉其實對於一般商家來講負擔是很重的吧對不對他已經有很大的價格優勢那如果他把抽成拉得更高的話"},{"start":12134.389,"end":12158.564,"text":"那麼對於苦心經營的餐廳或小失業者那更是更大的一個威脅我舉個例子啊 主委假設你開一家小餐廳除非你不打算接外賣的訂單啦那一旦他條件開的不管是28 30 40甚至45他開的這個價格這個所謂的費率高到你無法承受的地步的話那你怎麼辦"},{"start":12160.267,"end":12170.158,"text":"你跟他根本沒有任何可以抗衡的力量對不對這是為什麼外界非常擔心這個合併案會對業者產生影響同時如果成本提高可能會轉嫁給誰"},{"start":12172.679,"end":12172.899,"text":"消費者"},{"start":12209.913,"end":12222.655,"text":"請李昆成委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們請李主委。請李主委。"},{"start":12230.223,"end":12257.072,"text":"主委好,今天早上大家都在問這個UberEats跟這個Fupenda有關於要合併的相關的問題那我剛才都有聽那這個主委是說現在5月14號收件然後5月30號要求補正所以現在還在補正的階段沒有正式受理嘛對不對那如果說這個Fupenda的文件一直無法備齊那合併案的這個現在是處於哪一種法律的效果"},{"start":12258.322,"end":12265.748,"text":"那是在申報過程的補件程序所以這段時間沒有期限就對了"},{"start":12266.676,"end":12294.991,"text":"我們目前是要求11月8號要求11月8號要把這一個文件補齊但是補齊他交給你們之後如果你們認為說還不夠是還在推薦叫他們再補所以這11月8號也不是最終的Date Line嘛對不對要看他補件的情形對補件的期限所以補完件之後他可以再交如果你們認為說文件不夠齊全再交嘛對不對所以這個收件的最後這個收件的期限"},{"start":12296.132,"end":12308.331,"text":"還會再往後延嗎如果沒有補期就沒有辦法進行結合目前他是有意願要結合現在會不會發生這種情況如果你的任期到哪時候"},{"start":12310.172,"end":12334.353,"text":"到月底那現在會不會發生這種情況就是說好啦那如果他11月8號他就把這一個文件把它補齊了他送進去了那你們審查你們審查時間是多久30天加60天嗎對30天跟60天就是最長的3個月工作天對啊就是90個工作天嘛那有沒有這種情況就是說審查到一半你任期到了"},{"start":12336.547,"end":12365.848,"text":"不無可能這個要看普見的情形對啦我是說如果11月8號普進來了那12月1月兩個月的時間而已耶那所以有可能說你們審查到一半你們現在委員有幾個人7位7位有幾位1月底任期到期4位4位好那剩下3位是繼續審下去呢還是就沒辦法審那個行政院長會提名請去法院同意所以行政委員會推銷券這一檔杯葛的話這一檔杯葛這個人事案的話"},{"start":12366.861,"end":12383.109,"text":"我當然是 我也不希望啦我當然希望人事案預算案都能夠通過啦我現在講是一種情況嘛如果這樣子就只剩三位而且沒有主委沒有副主委只有三位好 那是對 那我是說是繼續審查呢還是有沒辦法審查"},{"start":12387.904,"end":12406.26,"text":"如果文件齊備 假設他11月齊備了那如果還有足夠的委員來審就會審查文件齊備那時候你們還是7個嘛對不對對 文件齊備如果符合剛才講的30天加60天都沒有去審這個案子就等於准了 他就可以去做了"},{"start":12406.977,"end":12435.948,"text":"對所以我的文件齊備你們在審嘛對不對那審當然會有yes或no嘛是阿如果沒有做出決定就是就是阿三個月可以做出決定嗎所以我們剛剛跟提到就是說11月8號假設齊備了11月8號就開始算30天加60天那假設跨過委員的任期我們正常情況下業務是不會中斷的阿所以因為我們新屆委員會有這個沒有阿就是如果最後只剩下三個啦"},{"start":12438.9,"end":12465.846,"text":"期間還是繼續進行啊對那所以三個還是可以繼續審就對了三個三個我認為說三個一樣可以這個進行準或不準的這個決定就對了三個有可能那要沒有請假沒有其他的情形那我也不建議有這種對啦我是講說最壞的情況是不是那就是說如果遇到只剩下三個的話是不是還會審查下去那還是沒有如果沒有沒辦法審查下去那因為時間到了所以他就準了"},{"start":12467.366,"end":12476.292,"text":"時間到沒有做出決定就是準的意思就是沒有意義嘛沒有意見他就可以做了對啊那會不會說那我意思就是說如果剩下三個的話到底能不能審查"},{"start":12479.311,"end":12502.361,"text":"三個開會要看是不是三個委員都能出席如果有請假或是什麼三個都能夠出席的話能不能做審查三個出席是可以出席可以審議是可以審議所以不會影響到最後這個因為我是擔心啦就是說因為剩下三個沒辦法開會然後讓他讓他就最後就因為是因為你們沒辦法開會的結果讓他就準了會不會發生這種情況"},{"start":12505.951,"end":12516.904,"text":"三個委員可以繼續開會但是我要說明就是說為什麼法定上要設七個就是希望有多數的委員憑他們的專業跟經驗好好的審核案件這我都知道我是假設在野黨黨人是一個人是愛最後只剩下三個"},{"start":12522.23,"end":12522.53,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12546.704,"end":12571.705,"text":"公平會要負責任三個月時間公平交易法11條第7項第8條跟你一言在言就是三個月你要負起這三個月的審查責任不是三個月過了就自然核准你就是刻意在放水五月收件到八月再補件現在到年底你還不能夠審查你的委員如果七個七個人沒有到的話你就重新再換委員啊怎麼可以不負責任呢"},{"start":12573.575,"end":12573.795,"text":"李主委"},{"start":12599.298,"end":12612.348,"text":"主委請問一下我們這個Full Panda跟UberEats的合併案是由哪一個處來做實質的審查服務業競爭處就是林處長我剛才要延續我們今天主席所講的"},{"start":12625.088,"end":12640.47,"text":"這麼一個社會眾所矚目的一個合併案從5月份收件然後到8月份才要求他補件時間已經過了三個月然後呢你們的任期我們好幾位委員的任期都迫在眉睫"},{"start":12641.531,"end":12643.092,"text":"那我不曉得我們在拖什麼那這個當然就會讓外界認為說你們拖拖拉拉另外呢剛才李昆城委員好像又把這樣的可能的責任推向給在野黨說實在我們現在連NCC的這個新的這個委員現在都已經副委阿要做審查"},{"start":12663.308,"end":12675.28,"text":"所以應該公平會應該行政單位負起的責任不要推給在野黨那本來在我們至少在野黨也沒有要針對公平會委員要做什麼樣的刁難啊"},{"start":12677.284,"end":12698.406,"text":"你們只要提出來的是具有合理的專業的背景我們沒有不準的道理啊所以我覺得這個案子不要最後拿來做政治操作那這個對於廣大的消費者跟廣大的這些外送員事實上是極為不公平的"},{"start":12699.227,"end":12705.71,"text":"那這個事情呢 剛才有委員特別提到 因為我自己當過臺北市議員在2022年的時候 那個時候我們每一個議員還有臺北市政府的消保處電話被打爆為什麼呢 當時Fu Panda在無預警的狀況之下提高了平台的服務費"},{"start":12720.558,"end":12742.565,"text":"那個時候包含這個臺北市光是那個協調的個案好幾百件我們自己本身議員也收到可是即使是如此但是fulpanda完全沒有在理會的照樣當時就直接的提高了服務平台費那這個其實當時是引起大家的重怒可重怒能怎麼辦呢"},{"start":12745.811,"end":12772.548,"text":"當時也有去找公平會 因為公平會說他沒有獨佔不了了之所以這一次在整個的合併的過程裡面我覺得要特別的注意的就是到底有沒有壟斷市場的問題那麼施策會事實上MIC在發布外送平臺大調查的時候也顯示2023年民眾最常用的外送平臺就是Fu Panda跟Uber Eats"},{"start":12773.288,"end":12776.691,"text":"這兩家一旦合併．絕對造成市場的壟斷．所以這個部分只要公平會應該從各個面向包含消費者的權益．我剛才講剛才．在沒有合併之前都有片面突襲式的決斷式的就提高這個服務平台費"},{"start":12794.904,"end":12809.721,"text":"那麼更不要說未來假使是真的變壟斷的話在市場整個獨佔的狀況之下消費者權益在哪裡外送員的權益在哪裡今天我沒有時間跟你討論最近還有一個高高興的一個判例"},{"start":12810.522,"end":12839.034,"text":"對於外眾員極為不合理即便縣市政府想要來做來做一些補償來做一些那個把它那個修正檢討但是呢最後在法令上還是有利於業者所以這一些真的是一定要要高度重視的好我給大家看一下這個是呢我們辦公室我們的update當時我們就曾經就是把我們常常吃的比如說"},{"start":12840.434,"end":12854.102,"text":"數字店的排骨飯乳肉飯光是你店家去吃到你在平台上的這個去做外賣他大概就是增加40塊到50塊為什麼增加那麼多就是因為服務平台費的關係"},{"start":12860.225,"end":12869.951,"text":"在國外其實包含美國有幾個城市他們像紐約舊金山他們都有強制規定你的服務平台費應該是有一個上限的但是我們沒有我們就是由業者自行來去決定所以這樣會造成一個就是這個價格為什麼我們就說為什麼現在消費物價一直漲大家都一直覺得說荷包越來越薄"},{"start":12887.623,"end":12887.803,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":12917.623,"end":12932.766,"text":"另外我剛特別講外送員外送員因為事實上長期以來外送員是弱勢的我剛舉一個例子光是要不要做強制保險地方的自治條例被中央整個的打回票"},{"start":12933.527,"end":12940.332,"text":"所以未來外送員在經過合併的過程裡面他們的權益如何做到合理的保障那當然還有我們在整個的業界這個是一個大家非常關注的這樣的產業平台的一個合併如何能夠在市場極度的這個獨佔的狀況之下還能夠創造這個產業它的一個合理的發展也非常重要"},{"start":12960.805,"end":12967.33,"text":"另外就是呢包含你有沒有一些相關的法規甚至你們可以去建議比如說勞動部的一個相關法規如何讓他更完善我們希望這個合併是要大家互利互贏"},{"start":12976.878,"end":12976.978,"text":"好 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":13015.287,"end":13038.634,"text":"請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在請傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在請徐欣穎徐欣穎徐欣穎委員不在請廖偉祥廖偉祥廖偉祥委員不在他有換過什麼什麼我們現在讀我們現在讀葉元智"},{"start":13042.601,"end":13066.392,"text":"好 葉言之 葉言之 葉言之委員不在請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在請游浩游浩游浩委員不在請謝依鳳謝依鳳謝依鳳委員不在請賴世寶賴世寶賴世寶委員不在請高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員不在請廖偉祥廖偉祥廖偉祥不在"},{"start":13071.026,"end":13094.556,"text":"當屆發言的委員除了不在場外：其餘的均已發言完畢．詢答結束．委員有謝一鳳葉元之所提的書面質詢列入紀錄．刊登公報．書面質詢跟未及答覆的部分．請相關單位於一週內．以書面答覆並附資本會．本日議程處理完畢．現在散會"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:04 - 12:10:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}