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,"第一個，這是每個人都可能會碰到的，今天我們是為了捍衛每個人的安全，因為滅火器裡面本來就不應該含這個物質啊！如果照這個規定，本來就不應該。但你現在辯護說它是很少量的，但本席要告訴你，發生這種狀況的時候就不會是少量喔！第二個，本席現在給你看的是監察院的報告，他們調查之後發現有些高達15.9%，所以本席現在明確要求，你們要儘快處理。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，已經在處理了。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在的逐年計畫是要怎麼處理？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準。SiO2的含量有一個標準，會逐年下降。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下！你剛剛說的是結晶型二氧化矽？你們還是繼續用這個物質嗎？很多專家學者告訴本席，這是完全不能存在的。"],["蕭署長煥章：世界各國的乾粉滅火器當中，SiO2是一定存在的，沒辦法完全廢止。"],["張委員啓楷：絕大部分都沒有啦！是因為你們……"],["蕭署長煥章：不是的。"],["張委員啓楷：聽本席說。是因為你們沒有規定乾粉滅火器的年限，對不對？國外為什麼不需要這個致癌物？因為他們都有規定年限啊！粉末式的年限就是兩、三年，但我們沒有限制，對不對？你是專家，請你回答本席的問題。是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：乾粉滅火器一定會存在，為了讓乾粉滅火器不會固化，SiO2這個物質也一定會存在。委員關心的是它的量，包括比例是多少，這個物質的百分比是多少，這部分我們會逐年處理。"],["張委員啓楷：本席現在不懂的是，剛剛也給你看了，11年前消防署就要求要改，對不對？過了8年，連監察院都提出糾正。第一個，為什麼改正的速度這麼慢？還是完全沒有改？你們到底是遇到什麼問題？"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分……"],["張委員啓楷：吹哨者檢舉的時候，說裡面的水很深啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：不會深啦！"],["張委員啓楷：本席不管水有多深，最重要的是什麼？就是要保障人民的安全，因為這牽涉到健康嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：那是一定的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以你們的速度要加快。本席現在要一個很明確的答復，因為本席希望向全民交代清楚，你們準備怎麼做？速度怎麼加快？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準，就是乾粉滅火器裡面含有SiO2的量到底是多少，這個部分一定會揭示在標示上面，這是首先向委員回報的。至於乾粉滅火器含有多少SiO2，目前我們在和業界研商到底怎麼處理這個問題，這是另外一個階段的方法。"],["張委員啓楷：你們的計畫在一個禮拜內提供給本席。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們再向委員詳細報告，沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再進一步檢討怎麼儘快改正，不要發生危害到人民健康的事情。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。因為資料弄清楚以後，連監察院也了解，喔！原來這是在資訊不完整的情形之下所得到的結果，目前已經很清楚地了解了。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，主席已經站起來了。主席，本席再借1分鐘就好，有一件事情很重要，本席要問一下。關於消防器材的檢驗，以前是經濟部商品檢驗局負責，對不對？民國97年交給消防署之後，你們現在交給兩個基金會。本席的問題很簡單，本席去查負責消防器材檢驗的這兩個基金會，給大家看一下，15個董事裡面，有7個是業者，這不是球員兼裁判嗎？對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，有兩個基金會。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼可以自己檢查自己的產品，對不對？這要改，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前是委託基金會處理，我們再來檢討這個方式。"],["張委員啓楷：不要再讓業者介入，他們的產品應該要由你們檢查。哪有人這樣做的？他們的產品要接受檢查，結果自己卻去當裁判。另外8個都有消防專業，可能是消防局長退下來的，這些我們肯定。"],["蕭署長煥章：一半以上都具有消防專業。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！但是這7位就不合適啦！好不好？這7位要換掉啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，本席問一個最簡單的，就是標章。你們檢查完之後，部長，綠建築標章是你發的嘛！本席看上面的署名是劉世芳，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：建研所。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！一樣啊！綠建築是由部長發的，消防檢驗怎麼可以由基金會處理呢？把它改過來，以後上面蓋部長的章，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：太多了。"],["蕭署長煥章：做不來。"],["張委員啓楷：你們做不來？不是做不來。如果是環保署，當然是彭啓明署名啊！如果是經濟部的，署名當然是經濟部部長，這是特例耶！怎麼只有消防署的檢……"],["蕭署長煥章：因為消防器材的種類相當多，有幾千萬的量，全部都要政府機關來處理是有困難的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以它的公信力就會……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以委員，現在我們也和UL針對這方面做對接，怎麼樣把臺灣的器材國際化，現在也正在執行當中，目前的狀況是這樣，會再逐年檢討、強化，我們有一些步驟要執行。"],["張委員啓楷：署長、部長，本席提醒一下，不管之後是由哪一個部會認證，或是由誰去檢查，例如工研院，最後一定是蓋部長的章啦！這幾乎是特例，而且和人民的健康、安全有關係，當然要部長認證啊！你們可以由這兩個基金會去檢查，但是檢查完之後，最後的責任還是在部長啦！好不好？你們再看一下，本席有去查所有部會，連綠建築都是蓋部長的章啊！這個部分要改過來。剛剛說的那個資料要趕快給本席，我們要捍衛人民的健康安全，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}