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作為部分呢我們第一個是要廣徵各界對政府採購制度的意見那這個包括我們去陸續去拜會的各技術公會團體以及外國駐台的機構那說明政府的採購制度以及聽取呢各界的意見"},{"start":1558.922,"end":1566.676,"text":"同時也發函給各級政府機關精進政府採購法之意見徵詢表陸續在收集意見當中"},{"start":1571.271,"end":1575.732,"text":"徵修政府採購法令．相關範本指引應用工程履歷．引進優良廠商．辦理公共建設政府機關．選擇比較好的廠商．維持工建品質"},{"start":1594.793,"end":1600.238,"text":"那麼第4個是要持續精進推動電子化政府採購"},{"start":1603.996,"end":1631.492,"text":"關於第三點要提升禮業爭議調解效力方面因為制度的設計目前在工程會的禮業爭議的調解案件非常多整個人力的不足所以導致相關的禮業爭議的調解時間上有比較長不過因為委員的調解也都非常的"},{"start":1633.933,"end":1635.513,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":1656.8,"end":1656.86,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1675.196,"end":1677.717,"text":"第4關於協助推動政府進營排放目標"},{"start":1701.434,"end":1709.947,"text":"那麼工程會這邊有幾個做法第一個是透過收集工程產品的碳排係數"},{"start":1712.606,"end":1734.334,"text":"這個包括其他機關在辦理相關公共工程有收集的比如說經濟部水利署那收集了這些碳排係數之後那麼工程會不會建立一個資料庫那這個資料庫的碳排係數就可以提供給其他機關在進行工程設計的時候可以使用"},{"start":1735.322,"end":1760.781,"text":"那第二個呢就是有了這些資料庫之後呢我們也希望要建置一個關於工程設計的排碳的估算系統那麼這個排碳的估算系統呢在政府公共工程設計階段透過這個系統會進行整個整個排碳的總量的計算那第三個呢在金職獎評審標準部分呢我們新增了"},{"start":1762.771,"end":1777.131,"text":"幾項標準．包括檢探的成效．具體的檢探成效．以及植栽計畫．綠富利等．這些與排碳相關的內容．都納入金職獎新增的評審的標準"},{"start":1780.148,"end":1807.526,"text":"第4我們要建置一個公共工程能夠優先使用再生力料的制度過去我們推動循環經濟希望能夠透過公共工程使用再生力料來減少天然骨材的使用讓整個工程料源能夠循環使用"},{"start":1808.922,"end":1835.293,"text":"第5個就是將生態檢核列為施工查核的重要項目推動公共工程的生態檢核作為紡釋實施計畫透過這幾個方式希望能夠在公共工程在設計或者是料源的選擇方面能夠達到淨零排放的目標"},{"start":1837.315,"end":1859.382,"text":"第5個關於推動均衡臺灣的政策目標部分目前有針對140項均衡臺灣政策的基礎建設包括交通、產業、文化、觀光、水資源、醫療、能源等進行列管定期考核一定能夠如期來完成"},{"start":1860.642,"end":1883.223,"text":"另外就是針對相關的風災災害的復原的部分工程會今年特別分組到各縣市去針對公共設施的部分它的災損情形跟各縣市政府直接面對面討論如何來申報政府的補助"},{"start":1884.904,"end":1913.867,"text":"各機關也相對的那直接到現場安排會刊等等這樣整個在關於災損的部分政府補助的部分能夠迅速來核定那麼公共工程的建設的推動呢攸關民眾的利益國家的競爭力社會的進步那麼更是經濟發展的主要動力本會將全力來協助各級政府機關加速公共建設的推動以利益"},{"start":1914.628,"end":1919.721,"text":"以及立國立民以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":1928.693,"end":1955.705,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息我們現在請登記第一位林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":1965.65,"end":1968.611,"text":"來謝謝主席本期邀請陳金德主委陳主委請上台"},{"start":1976.888,"end":2005.507,"text":"林委員長組長早各位這個我給你看一個三年前我的諮詢三年前我諮詢說我們勞務採購啊廠商旅業的驗收啊被抓到很多造假因為我們的勞務驗收啊可以用素面那這些照片啊我現在就這個以貪戀式為例橋樑檢測系統不同時間不同日期不同地點但是呢檢測的資料都都是用同樣的照片這個這個造假"},{"start":2007.267,"end":2029.446,"text":"那三年過去了啦 現在這種勞務驗收啦 造假的狀況啊 一樣層出不窮啦我來給你看一個台北市的例子我剛給你看的 先講好 台南市三年前的例子這台北市啊 台北市外包那個公車艇的清潔啊這個旅遊廠商啦 他驗收啦 他一樣用造假的照片這是不同日期 不同地點的"},{"start":2031.158,"end":2036.913,"text":"的照片同樣的照片來那審計部也注意到這一點我去抓了那審計部去抓了"},{"start":2040.543,"end":2068.468,"text":"他當然抽查比較大的勞務採購業五百萬以上的他抓了117件其中都是用照片來造假不同日期旅業照片一樣或者是說根本不同地點旅業照片一樣甚至不同年份旅業照片都是用同一張那為什麼會有這種造假狀況為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關因為第一個我們勞務採購一年大概八萬六千件"},{"start":2070.539,"end":2080.099,"text":"所以一般的業主就是各公務單位他沒有辦法完全的驗收因為太多件了再來我們的來日查購的規範裡面"},{"start":2082.281,"end":2109.847,"text":"本來就有允許可以用書面驗收但是呢他那個書面驗收他並沒有規範得很清楚說你書面要用什麼規範或者說你照片你的檔案要用什麼都沒有就很粗糙只是說你會用書面驗收甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收自主檢查我現在已經發現層次不窮的這根本就造假作弊"},{"start":2111.314,"end":2115.903,"text":"來請教主委像這種勞務採購一年八九萬件那你如何來防備"},{"start":2118.561,"end":2146.012,"text":"謝謝委員我想整個採購制度的驗收的部分主要是主辦機關的權責那主辦機關如果說有驗收不實我想這個已經涉及違法我聽過一件我看你還不是很了解這個問題第一個他老屋採購本來他可以用書面來驗收只是現在廠商會作弊因為你一年八萬六千件各機關真的沒有能力"},{"start":2147.433,"end":2166.408,"text":"我現在接你 你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣啦 你可以用AI的東西現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案"},{"start":2168.277,"end":2176.632,"text":"甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式"},{"start":2177.588,"end":2204.595,"text":"也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了我是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的"},{"start":2206.325,"end":2216.9,"text":"一大堆啦你很多鄉鎮公所抓不到很多縣市政府也抓不到因為太多件了啦中央政府裡面一樣一大堆啦那你現在有新的科技的話我們應該這個是審計單位建議的"},{"start":2219.093,"end":2220.754,"text":"現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應"},{"start":2245.882,"end":2263.715,"text":"因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數的成本誰來吸收"},{"start":2266.102,"end":2279.272,"text":"攤費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在"},{"start":2283.075,"end":2309.069,"text":"公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥類就漲了10%水泥類漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話"},{"start":2310.529,"end":2331.599,"text":"那勢必啊那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算啊不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你你各項公共工程啊制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個太簡單了啦"},{"start":2336.363,"end":2362.194,"text":"根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的"},{"start":2364.397,"end":2365.637,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2379.986,"end":2407.447,"text":"一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排係數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以去估算整個碳排"},{"start":2408.468,"end":2415.958,"text":"謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的碳評估指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者"},{"start":2420.988,"end":2448.895,"text":"業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快啦因為你因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧"},{"start":2450.779,"end":2458.936,"text":"徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊"},{"start":2462.34,"end":2480.79,"text":"這個碳費剛開始是前500碳排大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳排環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊"},{"start":2483.567,"end":2498.023,"text":"那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本嘛那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就是你前任講的啦那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物條"},{"start":2499.344,"end":2513.972,"text":"其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少"},{"start":2514.727,"end":2542.049,"text":"所以我們也在金質獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動"},{"start":2543.721,"end":2544.602,"text":"現在比較麻煩的是已經執行、已經招標、已經決標或開標中"},{"start":2554.378,"end":2581.849,"text":"還沒有確定得標的 開標中的公共工程案那這些業者 是不是可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本 陳金德可以讓他做一個物調嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦 因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的 已經招標的 絕標的 開標中的這些工程 怎麼辦"},{"start":2582.756,"end":2586.239,"text":"主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量"},{"start":2603.632,"end":2604.493,"text":"接下來邀請許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":2633.265,"end":2656.896,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委請陳主委委員早主委早我想主委的工作報告就是捐贈臺灣,捐贈董產信等等的我們也希望算能夠加強處理另外其實我長期在關心的就是政府採購制度"},{"start":2659.195,"end":2688.675,"text":"我們也希望說工程會能夠盡量推動增豐跟主計的參與那這樣子可以協助工程就是避免那讓新宿不正的人有機會去操作那如果是新宿很正的人也避免受到那個不必要的質疑所以其實增豐跟主計我覺得我們都是相當希望說他能夠辛苦一點多參與"},{"start":2689.815,"end":2715.047,"text":"讓我們工程可以進行得更好那另外像我們高雄機場這個這個發包不知道政務官主席有沒有參與這個還在設計階段他有兩期那個設計才剛完成審查而已對他就是半半施工那第一期還分兩期第一期的一之一已經發包出去了"},{"start":2716.092,"end":2726.459,"text":"那第一期的第二期現在在絕標階段那請教一下第一期一之一這個立體停車場同胞這個工程政府跟組織不知道有沒有參與"},{"start":2730.772,"end":2751.259,"text":"我們再瞭解看看,不過政風跟主計一般在辦理這種招標的主辦機關他同時就可以邀請主計或政風在開標、整個決標的過程當中全程參與對,所以其實我就跟主委,上一次主委第一次質詢的時候我跟主委報告過嘛,就是說"},{"start":2752.319,"end":2778.048,"text":"其實政風跟組織的參與我覺得蠻重要的公務員有沒有擔當事實上跟政風組織的參與也很關係如果今天其實那個大金額的絕標工程今天如果是用最低價標我們知道都可能會影響到品質所以我一直希望說政風跟組織可以多參與那就是說你今天大工程的招標因為其實最容易做手的也是大工程"},{"start":2779.232,"end":2796.375,"text":"啊所以呢其實這個部分評審標的話就有力標的話事實上就是說我們擔心就是如果心術不正的人去參與這一個大的標案啊如果沒有政府人主去參與有可能就會有事相說說或綁標的情形"},{"start":2797.276,"end":2811.127,"text":"那如果是新宿很正的有擔當的公務員他真的是選到最好的那也怕外界質疑或者是有時候其實我一直有一句話就是說如果檢察官爛宿會造成公務員不敢容易認識"},{"start":2812.208,"end":2828.901,"text":"所以我們會讓有擔當的公務員就是說有政治有政風跟組織的參與事實上你就可以很大聲的很心裡沒有問題的告訴他你看我完全都是公平公正公開那我就是挑最適合的最有利標來做這個工程"},{"start":2829.875,"end":2846.2,"text":"根據我的瞭解跟經驗現在這種政府公共工程的採購啊政風主計在場的比例是蠻普遍的啦一般承辦的主管都會希望政風也在場對其實這個就是根據報告從"},{"start":2848.337,"end":2874.296,"text":"吳鋒某當工程會主委一直到現在我每一年都會去看政府跟組織參與的比例那以及他最有力標標出去工程標出去的比例那我會去看這個趨勢到底有沒有成長事實上這幾年來我們看到最有力標的訣標事實上政府跟組織的參與跟幫助這個最有力標的實施也看到了成效"},{"start":2875.177,"end":2898.389,"text":"所以我會繼續的要求就是說我們工程會也能夠把這個精神再注意因為坦白講最有利標就像那個臺北市政府的那些標案一樣最怕的就是說到底有沒有人心術不正想要從中謀利那你如果說有正風主計從頭到尾參與的話其實這些東西可能就不敢"},{"start":2900.263,"end":2927.261,"text":"所以我希望說工程會員師能夠秉持這個原則能夠繼續去要求我們來鼓勵各機關能夠照這樣做那這個是舉這個例子一之一期我只是問問說有沒有參與那一之二期今年也主委陳說希望說能夠完成決標那我們預計2032年可以完成這個主委應該有信心"},{"start":2929.242,"end":2951.465,"text":"整個兩期總預算大概900多億那原計劃這個我請副主委李德副主委你來沒事我們時間還不多我們就希望那個主委幫忙多要求其實我還有一個問題下一次再問現在沒有時間問其實交通部一直跟我說要16年我就覺得怎麼會要這麼久"},{"start":2953.118,"end":2967.292,"text":"那工程會是不是可以去協助一下就是說他分半半施工那一個半就是8年一個半就是8年兩個要16年你像那個泰國青麥機場5年就完工了全部就做完了他是國內線跟國"},{"start":2969.775,"end":2991.948,"text":"國際線不能夠同時對對對我知道所以他半班施工我知道我是說那個時間有沒有機會再縮短我們想辦法來要求工程會有沒有辦法去給他們比較專業的工程上的指導我們來協助民航局對可以把那個時間縮短的部分能夠對在界面上多整合來說短時間這個拜託工程會能夠協助啦因為我一直對這16年"},{"start":2993.729,"end":2995.651,"text":"最後一個就是我們捷運黃線現在我們預計2030年能夠完成"},{"start":3016.19,"end":3028.166,"text":"那目前的確是遇到問題也需要工程會協助就是我們在經過這個最近就是物條啦缺工啦疫情啦等等的現在的確我們這個在"},{"start":3032.111,"end":3052.119,"text":"接應黃線的施工真的是有遇到的困難那當然最主要的困難就是經費的困難那基本上上一次追加減預算我也提了就是給工程會給那個相關的單位交通部等等的我們從108年、111年、112年這個基本上包括這一次113年的9月我們這個變更計畫也都已經完成了"},{"start":3060.402,"end":3066.694,"text":"所以這個部分其實也謝謝工程會的協助那現在還有一個就是說我們那個工程預備會"},{"start":3068.083,"end":3092.001,"text":"工程預備費希望說現在追加之後但是後面還是有可能會有誤調後面其實還是會有一些增加的機會其實我們也滿擔心這個工程要如期完成還需要很多不少的協助那目前交通部給我們的答應預定是7%啦那當然7%在誤調之後"},{"start":3094.69,"end":3117.249,"text":"我們覺得不夠那他們高雄市政府還要跟工程會還有一個協調的會議那我希望說是不是主委這邊可以多幫忙我們在協調高雄市政府跟交通部以及相關的機關單位市府本來是希望15%啦阿中央是7%啦阿一半差不多11% 12%啦"},{"start":3121.741,"end":3142.394,"text":"再拜託主委你是我們高雄市的副市長出身的所以對高雄市的這個部分希望主委能夠多花點心力那這個部分在需要工程會意見的時候也希望工程會可以多幫忙對副主委也是所以希望說我們主委副主委能夠多幫忙好拜託感謝謝謝許智傑委員質詢"},{"start":3150.151,"end":3152.152,"text":"接下來邀請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們要請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":3171.036,"end":3186.325,"text":"委員長主委早主委首先我想請教一下這個在今天的這個報告裡面有提到現在預告來修正所謂最有利標的評選辦法裡面有增列了這個減少溫室氣體排放的這個技術項目我想問一下他的這個"},{"start":3187.728,"end":3205.636,"text":"平選辦法陣列這一條那它用在了後續的所有公共工程還在此時選項之一還有推動這樣的這個平選因為減少溫室氣體排放這個是一個很籠統的這個形容詞啦那到底減少多少會被列為平選的標準"},{"start":3207.521,"end":3234.615,"text":"我想這個是機關在辦理招標的時候決標方式是用評審的話那麼評審有很多項目那我們這個是這個規劃是希望在評審項目裡面能夠增加這個碳排減碳的這樣的考量所以現階段來講這個東西只是鼓勵還不是強制嗎鼓勵然後各機關他自己去橫著看是比例是多少我想這個是主辦機關的選擇"},{"start":3235.856,"end":3253.605,"text":"那未來比例減板減少多少?主委是說你要下放到變成是各招標機關自己來決定到時候你們會去協調這個環境部去訂相關的標準嗎?還是一樣由各主管機關自己決定多少叫做減碳符合這個減少溫室氣體排放的標準"},{"start":3255.543,"end":3282.659,"text":"我想這個應該是希望各主辦機關來決定他應該每個工程有不同的考量所以檢探在這個工程裡面是要站到什麼程度各主辦機關他的這個訂定我想是機關的權利環境部不會訂一個整體的標準嗎我想要問一下環境部"},{"start":3283.559,"end":3309.519,"text":"那這個是因為是納入這個評選決標的過程裡面所以當然廠商會提他的相關計畫嘛這個案的相關計畫這個計畫裡面包括安全啊等等檢探的計畫所以那評選委員可以針對這些計畫去認為他是做的好不好有沒有達成效果好不好所以那個分數啊比例還是主辦機關去這個檢探是占5%或占2%或占40%"},{"start":3312.381,"end":3329.837,"text":"我還是建議啦因為今天針對這我是覺得是鼓勵是好事就是說真的往這方向走是對包括你們的這今天簡報裡面也提到未來對於這個對這種減碳的標準是未來工程會的目標但是到底對應多少我覺得應該有個目標方向出來那我們再跟環境部商量"},{"start":3330.217,"end":3352.728,"text":"對阿,這樣子大家廠商他們才有一個方向才有辦法依據嘛,不然到底減少多少就是說符合最有利標的標準,不如如果又放到各單位去做,那其實跟現在其實差不多啦,因為現在其實本來你的技術表裡面本來就有說針對環境保護會對環境影響多少等等的,它本來就可以放進這個相關的評選標準,但是因為過去都沒有訂定所謂的數字,那裡面訂定數字當然大家各單位各行其事嘛,"},{"start":3353.708,"end":3357.329,"text":"主委你什麼時候決定要去的?我們這個行程安排很早"},{"start":3375.363,"end":3382.775,"text":"9月初就安排去不好意思因為那天剛好立法院召委你9月初就決定要去你知道我們什麼時候收到通知嗎"},{"start":3383.749,"end":3411.902,"text":"我們9月24我們下午我們立法院的委員們臺中就是臺中的捷運沿線的委員都是9月24的中午過後我們才收到這個通知好那你很早以前就決定然後9月5早上要去但9月5早上剛好立法院開議要選召委所以沒有一個沒有一個委員本人能夠親自去現場去給你簡單的這個報告讓你瞭解一下地方建設的狀況所以你看這個照片大多只能派助理好不好主委"},{"start":3413.03,"end":3428.653,"text":"以後這種重大工程大家一定都非常關切的通知可能是慢了一點這個部分拜託主委未來這個相關通知要早一點因為那天是去看技術審查所以相關的委員到現場去看"},{"start":3428.953,"end":3441.057,"text":"好所以接下來一樣是捷運藍線的部分那當現場有討論到關於這個現在的基本設計修正的部分那現場也提到說交通局那邊也提到說希望兩週內能夠送進這個工程會來提標來審查"},{"start":3445.479,"end":3446.26,"text":"提報到工程會去"},{"start":3461.44,"end":3463.662,"text":"我想那天安排相關的委員去看就表示說已經進入最後可以核定的階段了"},{"start":3484.684,"end":3508.004,"text":"臺中市政府有提一個修正這個修正也馬上可以核定那基本設計我想這樣來審議有些意見再補正一下會很快年底之前這個核定這個基本設計是沒有問題的好謝謝我們就期待說因為這個捷運10年前就開始在做相關的文書作業了那10年後我們希望說明年能夠順利的來動因為這個表定也要蓋10年"},{"start":3509.085,"end":3524.991,"text":"好 其實真的是非常久那到底10年內能不能完成待會我們會討論一下所以這部分我們希望市府如果兩中內送進了這個工程會那既然大家有相關的共識都有了現場也討論過了我們希望他能夠盡速年底前來把它核定可以嗎好 沒有問題"},{"start":3526.431,"end":3542.644,"text":"那再來我看這個一樣是提到捷運工程的流標的問題我剛剛想說為什麼講10年我們都很擔心能不能做到因為從過去這些年下來包括是北捷的這個各縣也好或是說甚至這個桃園捷運也好我想流標的次數都非常非常多次啊"},{"start":3543.044,"end":3562.995,"text":"那這一次臺中捷運除了藍線之外未來除了捷運藍線那包含捷運綠線延伸包含捷運橘線有可能同一時間臺中同時有很多的捷運工程在進行然後想問工程會這邊有什麼樣的手段或是有什麼樣的建議讓市府在招標的過程裡面不要再發生過去這些年下來這種捷運工程大量流暴的狀況"},{"start":3564.4,"end":3578.639,"text":"我想這個因為捷運工程本身就是一個巨額的採購所以能夠做這樣子的捷運工程的廠商不管國內外都很有限加上我們整個物價"},{"start":3579.881,"end":3580.381,"text":"所謂合理其實就是價格的問題"},{"start":3606.066,"end":3625.022,"text":"價格裡面又涉及到現在每年就是這種營建土建成本還有我們現在這個勞務標的問題這個部分到工程會議你有沒有標準說讓地方政府在開票過程裡面有彈性讓他後續不管是物條也好或是他的這個預留相關預算也好"},{"start":3625.723,"end":3628.206,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3645.447,"end":3650.271,"text":"最後一個問題這個是你們自己要政府採購法規定的各單位本來就要上傳他們的招票案件"},{"start":3670.367,"end":3670.607,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":3689.494,"end":3689.614,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":3711.31,"end":3738.118,"text":"主委你也掌握到這情況嗎?那後續你們要怎麼處理?我們在每個月的督導匯報裡面會要求這兩個單位做說明來瞭解所以他們目前還沒有說明過嗎?我們下一個督導匯報會議會來要求說明結果再請主委主題才是請主委也提供給本會委員讓我們知道一下好不好主委?我們書面來提供謝謝主席謝謝黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":3743.186,"end":3743.486,"text":"主席陳珠瑋"},{"start":3764.378,"end":3783.785,"text":"委員長主委長您是公共工程委員會的主委所以有關合約有關所有公共工程的合約由您來做解釋應該是最好的人選有一句話叫做政府的採購法的精神是維護公共利益以及公平合理請問您是否認同"},{"start":3785.556,"end":3800.906,"text":"這個是政府採購法開宗明義的這個主旨啦我想好謝謝主委那想請那這個我從我們調了資料從立法院預算中心針對政府的媒體宣傳費報告指出各機關沒宣費連續3年的得標廠商"},{"start":3803.768,"end":3815.399,"text":"採限制性招標居多而且得標廠商集中度甚高以至於政府的政策及宣傳業務未能擴及社會大眾必須檢討適妥性"},{"start":3817.028,"end":3845.705,"text":"我們也都知道說採用限制性招標跟選擇性招標大多數的廠商連進場的資格都無法取得更不用說比較所以說限制性招標也好選擇性招標也好雖然比較方便但對機關是不需要經過冗長的公開上網及標期的規定所以直接聯絡廠商請適合的廠商適合這個是主觀的適合的廠商來進行報價但是其實對於其他可以想要競標的廠商這是很不公平的方式"},{"start":3846.525,"end":3858.598,"text":"而且最直接的如果機關的公務員若有圖利特定廠商的情形更不容易藉不公開的漏洞只找同一批的廠商來採購形成堅強的共犯結構"},{"start":3864.924,"end":3881.49,"text":"雖然說我們政府採購法22條明令的可以不用公開招標的方式來去例外而機關可以選擇適當的廠商進行議價依法永續但是請問請問一下主委您認為這樣符合政府採購法的精神嗎"},{"start":3883.859,"end":3900.704,"text":"這個政務採購法裡面的招標方式有很多種那包括限制性招標所以每個機關他採取他要的招標方式這個我們尊重機關的意見而且都合法所以說您對於具體的改善有沒有什麼提出什麼具體的改善方向呢"},{"start":3901.305,"end":3906.168,"text":"那我想請問一下主委您今年公共工程委員會的媒體宣傳費用去年是多少?那今年呢?"},{"start":3928.988,"end":3938.219,"text":"也是220萬那請問去說那請問得票廠商是哪裡呢我可能請相關來說明吧來誰指望請問那我也想說"},{"start":3941.02,"end":3966.292,"text":"報告委員去年是泰宜廣告公司那主要是在辦金職獎那今年是一位比較新創的一個媒體公司那我們就是拍這個金職獎的宣傳還有兩性平權的這些宣傳影片有KPI嗎?你們內部一定有KPI的因為我曾經在港務公司待過我知道內部有KPI"},{"start":3967.068,"end":3983.846,"text":"是跟委員報告這個部分我們就是有訂那個收視就是點閱率這些點閱率220萬那請問點閱率的影片大概多少點閱率的影片我們我們是一個"},{"start":3986.19,"end":4008.11,"text":"抱歉我們手上的資料是總計的是曝光數是1300萬次點閱率是18萬次幾支影片我們總共有一部5分鐘的然後還有濃縮版的影片30秒的所以幾支應該是5支左右4支全部加起來多少18000次18萬次"},{"start":4012.202,"end":4012.602,"text":"分享次數幾次點擊有92296次"},{"start":4028.891,"end":4043.039,"text":"我們有一個曝光一個是曝光我知道我知道我自己我自己都在關於自己的粉絲專頁這個是矜持講矜持講的內容啦吼那麼包括這些相關工程達人的一些影片啦比較屬於單純是"},{"start":4045.1,"end":4048.302,"text":"工程會的政策工程會的業務範圍"},{"start":4076.982,"end":4093.78,"text":"還有另外一個問題就是我還是回到合約因為合約一個限制性招標一個是這個限制性招標跟我們看到的所謂的這個選擇性招標之外我也想請問一下OT跟ROT不同在哪裡"},{"start":4095.469,"end":4120.371,"text":"ROT是等於是重建重建然後這個操作然後再轉移嘛那OT是操作轉移嘛那這個我提報告委這個業務已經是財政部的業務了那我只是問清楚合約上這以前是工程會的業務現在出差的部分是財政部的業務我知道可是您還是可以解說是OT換ROT需不需要重新招標"},{"start":4122.782,"end":4146.864,"text":"我只想知道是不是需要重新招標公務員報告就是招標的時候基本上就有權利義務關係所以這個OT或ROT在招標的時候會說明清楚所以說如果是一個OT案直接換成ROT所以OT的精神這樣子合法嗎"},{"start":4147.963,"end":4166.702,"text":"報告委員這一位涉及到個案的企業變更的內容和他的容許性所以這個可能要個案來看所以說這樣子來講的話如果一個案子假設說我今天有個優良廠商我跟你簽的是OT合約然後慢慢就直接找另外一個協力廠商然後變成ROT這樣在法律上是允許的囉"},{"start":4168.035,"end":4192.576,"text":"我想再跟委員報告 促參的部分主管機關是財政部所以不管OT ROT BOT全部是財政部那如果說財政部說它是違法的呢這個是財政部做解釋阿 那工程會呢針對是政府採購 如果說它有違反政府採購我們工程會會去了解我只是有一個問題請說 不方便去幫財政部去做相關的這個促參法的相關的解釋"},{"start":4193.397,"end":4198.883,"text":"我為什麼把這件事特意邀他出來談的原因是說因為不管是您現在的講法跟"},{"start":4200.251,"end":4222.978,"text":"當初吳哲成吳前主委的講法都是經過講起來某個程度上你說是個案個案不過如果以通案來講是不是應該要經過一個重新招標的檢訊呢我可能要檢視一下他的原始合約啦原始合約如果有雙方合意說OT期限到了之後能夠繼續做重建的話我想還是根據合約如果OT還沒到就直接做ROT呢還是看原來合約來看"},{"start":4223.638,"end":4223.878,"text":"東岸廣場的案子"},{"start":4246.243,"end":4259.377,"text":"基本上來講如果假以雙方第三方如果當初合約沒有寫而有一個場上直接介入的話我們有一個諮詢委員會會針對合約的禮約的情形做諮詢諮詢委員會主委今天負責人在場嗎諮詢委員你好"},{"start":4268.852,"end":4284.86,"text":"針對東岸 基隆市東岸廣場的案子 OT直接抓ROT請問這樣是合法的嗎?而且在OT的合約還沒到之前請問這樣是合法的嗎?先跟委員報告就是說原則上因為我們是處理政府採購的契約"},{"start":4285.8,"end":4289.782,"text":"所以這樣講起來說公共工程委員會對這個案子完全無法負責完全無法介入就對了"},{"start":4309.37,"end":4321.421,"text":"如果說是請我們從政府採購契約的角度來提供一些意見那我想我們是可以提供這樣的一個所以我問OT如果要換ROT是不是要經過重新招標"},{"start":4323.191,"end":4349.003,"text":"通案來講OT如果說他在OT如果說在期限他要變成ROT的話是不是需要公開是不是需要重新招標我只是要回答yes or no因為他不是走政府採購所以他沒有所謂公開不公開招標的問題因為他看起來有可能是走促餐那促餐因為他根本就沒有走政府採購的程序那OT的話ROT如果說就是不需要重新再招標就可以直接這樣做囉您現在這句話隨時現在會議上面都有記錄喔"},{"start":4356.048,"end":4368.997,"text":"因為政府採購企業裡面目前沒有這個類別所以我不敢跟委員講說那到底可以或不可以因為我們目前政府採購企業裡面並沒有處理這方面的問題好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":4384.5,"end":4395.803,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請陳淑月召委謝謝主席請主席邀請陳金德主委請主委委員長"},{"start":4403.424,"end":4420.351,"text":"主委早安本席想先請教一下我們有注意到主委在26號的臉書發布了一個消息說宜蘭鐵路高架地方的配合款渴望從105.72億下修為53.87億"},{"start":4427.054,"end":4449.528,"text":"有宣布了這樣的一個消息嗎那因為你這樣子一發文之後啊真的是一個震撼彈喔在我們地方因為我們彰化同樣也有鐵路高架的一個問題那過去以來在整個這個推動鐵路高架的過程當中當然有很多的條件才能夠讓這個計畫慢慢的往前推嗎那其中的配合款就"},{"start":4450.288,"end":4463.732,"text":"曾經膠著了一大段的時間那我想請問一下就是說陳主委基於什麼樣的條件跟理由可以宣布說依然鐵路高價地方配合款可望下修為53.87億"},{"start":4466.148,"end":4480.547,"text":"謝謝委員因為醫院的鐵路高加泰申請審議的將近10年那這10年當中事實上他的鐵路立體化的相關經費分擔的審查要點有修正過"},{"start":4482.009,"end":4499.824,"text":"那我們後來去檢視啊因為每個地方的鐵路高架地方政府的分攤的確都很沉重那尤其是非六都的部分啊財務狀況都啊不是那麼好所以呢這個分攤是按照財務狀況分財務等級來分配比方說有7525有8614等等這個超中的等級應該在之前的這個"},{"start":4508.491,"end":4526.159,"text":"總經費的分配就是中央和地方的負擔應該就已經有納入計算了嗎這次我們檢視就其中的用地取得鐵路高架因為他要現場的那個路線是高架所以在高架的同時旁邊要徵收土地做臨時軌就是要涉及土地徵收那這個土地徵收將來呢是屬於"},{"start":4528.44,"end":4540.153,"text":"國營的臺灣鐵路公司的所以才認為說既然將來的土地全屬是屬於中央的所以這個土地取得我們建立由中央來負擔另外第二個就是說調度廠就是機廠"},{"start":4543.496,"end":4544.156,"text":"那您這樣的建議,這樣的想法有共識了嗎?"},{"start":4566.756,"end":4578.725,"text":"這個我們當中這兩三個月都有密集召開過會議那麼也檢視過這個審查要點那行政院也經過一步長時間的討論基本上這個原則針對財務狀況比較不好的縣市來做這樣的一個主張也是算合理的"},{"start":4589.138,"end":4605.016,"text":"好那就是如果說宜蘭鐵路高架就是可以從這個地方負擔可以從105.72億下修為53.87億那彰化的鐵路高架是不是也可以下修這個地方的負擔款"},{"start":4605.456,"end":4630.892,"text":"我會跟部長交通部長來討論所以我剛才講的那兩個項目一個是用地取得一個是管理機場有新設機場的話那個調度的那部分不要納入分攤那用地取得完全中央來負擔因為那是中央的財產就是鐵路公司的財產所以這部分會比較明確所以很難從數字來看我要看裡面的配置到底263.3億的"},{"start":4636.668,"end":4647.353,"text":"102.7億有多少是用地取得有多少是去分攤到剛才講的那個調度廠的費用若是這兩部分的話我會來跟交通部來協調"},{"start":4648.897,"end":4675.768,"text":"是 因為在彰化鐵路高架也是地方引頸期盼20多年 超過20年以上的一個重大建設因為在這個推動的過程曾經在就是自償率的這個計算的時候就焦灼了一段時間所以我們也希望就是說在這樣子的一個負擔 中央跟地方的一個負擔的比例我們希望就是全國一致的因為我們不希望說主委好像是宜蘭人"},{"start":4681.95,"end":4697.037,"text":"有這樣的這個建議 一定是有根據一些過去的案例 或者是說現在的狀況 過去也有案例用力取得有專政府負擔的 也有縣市有這樣的案例"},{"start":4698.198,"end":4714.332,"text":"好謝謝那我們就是請我們主委要努力了因為您是也是政委嘛那政委就是交通部也是您在督導的業務是這樣子嗎是好謝謝那接下來本席來關心一下有關這個近年轉型的這個政策因為剛剛從"},{"start":4715.613,"end":4734.242,"text":"主委的這個業務報告裡面也有講到這個淨零轉型也是我們工程會五大的施政目標之一那我們來回顧一下就是說在2021年這個世界地球日4月22日的時候我們就宣布在2050年要淨零排放這樣子一個目標"},{"start":4735.382,"end":4764.04,"text":"那在2022年的3月也公布了近年排放轉型的一個路徑那同年的12月也公布了近年轉型就是在2030年階段性的一個目標所以我們在最近兩年公共工程委員會也開始推動這個公共工程的一個檢探在2022年也8月31號發布了公共工程節能檢探檢核注意事項那剛剛在你的優惠報告裡面你也有提到就是說未來的這個最有力標也會把"},{"start":4765.541,"end":4779.855,"text":"剪碳的這個部分的這個計算也納入評選的一個條件嗎那我覺得說如果說要納入一個評選的條件就是要讓不管是業務單位或者是投票廠商都要有一個依循的一個準則嗎對不對對"},{"start":4782.796,"end":4809.756,"text":"那我們看到就是說工程會的節能減碳目標就是說希望從減碳設計還有材料及工法等三大面向著手那藉由政府採購機制促使採購機關承攬廠商落實推動節能減碳然後逐步引導供應鏈邁向淨零排放那我想在這個過程我們工程會也訂立了三個階段的一個目標那其實其中有兩個很重要的部分就是"},{"start":4810.276,"end":4833.469,"text":"有關公共工程的檢探指引還有探牌資料庫數據的一個建立那有關這兩項目前就是我們知道工程會就是考量各類工程的特性不同有將公共工程分為八大類就是建築下水道水利能源橋樑道路隧道及軌道類"},{"start":4834.349,"end":4849.309,"text":"那就是要請這個相關的工程主管機關依工程的類型特性訂定這個公共工程檢探的指引那就主委你了解目前這八大類的相關主管機關的進度如何"},{"start":4852.523,"end":4880.282,"text":"我們這個指引的部分陸續在協調各部會來討論目前是水利的部分水利跟水保有完成其他還在討論當中預計是明年114年來完成這個指引這是一個做法之一另外比較重要的是那個碳排係數的資料庫的建立有那個每單項產品的碳排係數才能夠去計算碳排總量"},{"start":4881.042,"end":4902.359,"text":"所以我們另外還要建立一個估算系統等這些都建制完成我想主辦機關來計算碳排就比較容易了剛剛我們提到八大類那主委只提到水利那這樣子是進度是不是會不會差距太大了那你又說104年要完成嗎完成這個碳排指引我想這個會命請各位各部會來訪問"},{"start":4906.923,"end":4929.396,"text":"指引是OK啦那我們比較前端的那個碳排係數的建立需要收集很多資料就其他辦理招標的機關裡面現有的資料去收集或者是現有的廠商他的這個建築材料的一些碳排係數我們收集完了這個才能夠比較長遠的來進行碳排"},{"start":4930.034,"end":4949.992,"text":"是 那個碳排資料庫的一個規劃建置也是預計在114年年底完成嗎我這個請企劃處來我目前是1100筆啦所以那個要陸續再收集那我們希望能夠也是114年能夠能夠收集更廣泛的資料"},{"start":4950.928,"end":4976.705,"text":"是因為我們這些資料若沒有完成的話就是不管是業務單位或者是投標廠商他們都沒有一個依循的一個準則嘛是不是所以我們也希望這個工程會應該盡速完成就是檢探作業的參考指引跟節能檢探的檢核機制嘛這樣才能夠掌握這個成效然後應該在這個過程當中你們要積極的去檢討相關的一個策略吧應該做一個滾動式的一個檢討好的好謝謝主委"},{"start":4995.339,"end":4995.499,"text":"請陳金德主委"},{"start":5015.058,"end":5035.649,"text":"委員長主委長剛才陳樹葉委員提到有關於鐵路立體化相關設施的一個建立這對當地縣市政府來說都是一個重要的交通建設那陳主委也身兼政委負責協調督促交通部門相關的公共建設那"},{"start":5037.49,"end":5065.692,"text":"對於宜蘭的這個鐵路高架化臺鐵的鐵路高架化大概是從市城到羅東應該是這樣到東山那相關的這個建設對宜蘭的發展是非常的重要當然陳主委在做事一定是依據相關的法令以及程序不管是相關的土地徵收的這樣的一個臺鐵的公司的資產或是有無機廠的設置等等"},{"start":5066.452,"end":5094.83,"text":"這當然都有關係到相關的這個中央補助的一個標準以及地方的相關的財務分級的一個狀況那現在像彰化的這樣的一個台鐵高交化也是彰化重要的一個交通的建設那我們對於相關各縣市的一個補助必須符合相關的程序法令及標準來讓當地的重大交通建設得以順利推行來主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":5095.47,"end":5122.542,"text":"我想當中就是用地取得我剛剛講用地取得將來是屬於鐵路公司的資產所以這部分如果是由中央來負擔是上層合適而且過去也有其他縣市的鐵路高架它的用地取得是由中央來補助的所以差別在這裡所以剛才提到彰化的鐵路高架部分如果單獨去計算用地取得多少費用那我想這部分由中央來負擔也算合理"},{"start":5123.302,"end":5139.372,"text":"這個部分陳書業召委應該會召集陳思凱部長以及陳主委我們一起來共同討論對於全國相關的立體化設施臺鐵立體化設施相關補助的標準必須要明確出來"},{"start":5140.313,"end":5158.879,"text":"就是這個必要的時候可以針對那個補貼要點做修正好那補貼要點是一個最重要的基礎那淨零碳排也是一個國際重要的趨勢那國安會也在2050年他們有定下一個目標在2050年全台灣新的建築"},{"start":5160.12,"end":5174.735,"text":"要超過85%是具有建築的這樣的一個達到經營這樣的一個目標這是國會所定下重要的目標這是我們看到內政部的研究報告在建築部門的總碳排量它是佔了37%"},{"start":5176.937,"end":5195.855,"text":"使用階段的碳排放量佔了大概28%那新建及修繕拆除階段大概佔了9%那工程會的統計我們2023年工程採購大概是8300億元那公共工程佔了全國的碳排總排放量佔了9.78%"},{"start":5198.337,"end":5224.519,"text":"大概是有2700萬噸的二氧化碳的一個排放那我們針對國安會的這種2050年的這種碳排的一個總目標我們公共工程針對公共工程的碳排放量減量有沒有什麼具體的時程及規劃來主任說一下我們的做法具體的做法是這樣第一個就是在設計階段就能夠選用這個碳排比較"},{"start":5225.66,"end":5225.8,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5248.388,"end":5269.51,"text":"那我們剛才講的說不管建立碳排系數的資料庫估算系統能夠提供給將來的設計者能夠在設計階段就考量碳排放的這樣的的計算另外在整個工程預算裡面都會編列整個盤查的費用好主委這個營建類啊他的碳排啊"},{"start":5270.17,"end":5298.089,"text":"對於淨零的這樣碳排放的目標它其實影響是非常大的那我們看到公共工程部分的淨零政策大概是有兩類第一個就是公共工程預估的碳排放是要強制填爆這個沒有填爆就沒有辦法投標是屬於強制性的另外一種是財務類的採購是鼓勵業者他的一個自願的填爆"},{"start":5298.689,"end":5321.862,"text":"那我們先來看看強制性的這種公共工程預估碳排放的一個強制填爆這個部分那這個部分主委我們每年大概要有3萬件左右是要來強制性的這樣的一個填爆但是填爆的這個如何填爆以及填爆的數字"},{"start":5323.584,"end":5350.074,"text":"沒有明確的一個標準而且也沒有一個合對的一個機制是不是這樣來主委等一下說明一下我想這個整個要達到淨零碳排的目標我們還在努力階段所以國會主責那一切幾乎是從頭開始我剛才講為什麼要收集排放係數怎麼計算讓填爆者他還比較有所依據要有依據"},{"start":5351.654,"end":5375.043,"text":"但目前是沒有依據沒有標準也沒有一種來查核的一個這樣的機制有的廠商是有有的廠商比方說生產水泥的生產鋼筋的或是生產一些所以這就有問題了有的廠商他是誠實的去申報有的他是高報有的是低報我們對於這樣的一個標準沒有辦法建立出來以及如何查核這個請主委來再做一個詳細的"},{"start":5378.844,"end":5407.105,"text":"另外我們來看看國際的做法國際的做法按照聯合國的標準大概是國際的標準是有三種第一個它有三種範疇第一個是生產過程中的直接排放第二個範疇是所使用電力的間接排放或是能源的間接排放第三種是向下油間產生的間接的排放那其實在聯合國或是國際標準第一類第二類大概都有做"},{"start":5408.473,"end":5408.813,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5421.54,"end":5440.374,"text":"臺灣還沒有這個部分我們要怎麼去符合聯合國這樣的一個發展的趨勢這樣標準的規範臺灣當然可以來參考國際的做法不過我們就要求申報碳排總量或相關的要求希望一開始是針對大量的大戶碳排大戶"},{"start":5441.135,"end":5441.395,"text":"財務類的志願填報"},{"start":5463.399,"end":5479.749,"text":"目前大概是1100種左右的這樣的一個產品那我們對於這種啊有沒有相對的運用啊來說明一下這種資料庫的建立來說明一下這個就是碳排係數啦所以我們有的是從水利署來的有的是從原廠商來的"},{"start":5481.15,"end":5501.848,"text":"這些碳排系數是單項東西每單元它的碳排放量相當當量那將來呢夠多的時候每個機關在設計的時候就可以運用這個來計算那我們再加上一個估算系統就好像我們在計算整個建築整個工程的成本費用一樣輸入那個系統就可以估算整個碳排總量"},{"start":5503.69,"end":5514.017,"text":"這兩個工具要建制完成好我們產品的類型還是要依照功能性以及相似性來進行分類那依照功能性及排放量來製作清單"},{"start":5515.219,"end":5543.129,"text":"更要對清單定期通知各部會來進行相關的公告那最後一個問題我請教主委我們碳費開徵會不會影響建築的一個原料那8月29號環境部預告碳費的三指法針對碳排放要進行收費那大概環境部是希望能夠在10月底之前能夠都順利的通過這個碳費三指法那我們針對"},{"start":5546.911,"end":5555.476,"text":"這種預計每噸的二氧化碳大概要收費300到500元那2030年會再調升1200元到1800那依據統計營造的原料成本約佔房價的15%到35%那其中鋼鐵金屬的這些建築的組件大概佔了21%那水泥及其製品佔了大概10%"},{"start":5571.624,"end":5571.824,"text":"工程會．"},{"start":5592.441,"end":5611.895,"text":"每個月都會有相關的匯報,針對建築材料,包括砂石、水泥、鋼琴的價格都有一定的掌控所以我們如果說因為徵收碳費,這些相關製品如果說不合理的調帳,我想工程會會依職權來協調"},{"start":5616.578,"end":5617.018,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":5636.027,"end":5636.487,"text":"李崑哲委員質詢"},{"start":5664.704,"end":5667.207,"text":"接下來邀請何新淳委員質詢謝謝趙委﹖我們請﹖我們鄭委也是我們主委邀請我們陳金德主委"},{"start":5685.118,"end":5701.21,"text":"委員長早 主委長首先先要感謝你這個非常積極的就到台中去視察那希望能夠幫助台中的這個捷運這個工程那因為那一天大家都要選召委沒有辦法去但是我還是很感謝"},{"start":5701.991,"end":5730.263,"text":"因為呢我們捷運現在臺中只有一條綠線那市民呢因應的期盼這個捷運藍線還有橘線還有紫線還有更多條線希望所有的路網可以盡速的來動工可以來用最快的其實要用最快大概要等10年都希望趕快盡早的有成立一個路網那我自己呢之前在上一個會期交通委員會的時候也有召開一個考察就是希望能夠的就"},{"start":5732.124,"end":5744.911,"text":"現行的藍線要動工之前那我們之前來不及參與既然已經決定了那後面我們可以參與的時候那中央可以怎麼樣來協助解決我剛剛現在圖面上這個是藍線我們現在在局線的交會點的這個臺中車站的那一個地方"},{"start":5751.114,"end":5751.234,"text":"那一天"},{"start":5770.146,"end":5785.491,"text":"去現場看的就是邀請了相關的專家委員去現場就基本設計的內容就先看當然現在有些修正我想近日之內這個基本設計就會完成核定我剛剛提到的那個基本設計對不起因為我剛剛提到的那個點是因為藍線的基本設計我們來不及參與"},{"start":5791.673,"end":5819.676,"text":"但是未來的局限的設計我們可以趕得及來參與那現在在這個轉成的動線只是其中一個點這是一個點接下來我知道主委去這個視察的時候有提到現在我們捷運藍線還有可能未來第一個施工周邊的交通交尾的計畫的問題還有高架橋要跨越大甲斷層的問題"},{"start":5821.397,"end":5846.53,"text":"冰海海線地區抗強風的一個問題淺頓的隧道的穿越河流的技術問題那當然還有其他的交通設施工程問題那我剛剛講的那一點是因為我們也在提捷運藍線要延伸到我的選區屯區那如果有延伸的話那跟局限的交匯點就在剛剛我講的臺中車站那附近所以我才希望說"},{"start":5847.671,"end":5867.992,"text":"藉著中央跟專家學者的經驗可以有效率的協助跟審議主委這方面你去視察的時候這幾個點你的意見聽到專家學者意見是什麼這個就是我們當天專家學者提醒的這個藍線的捷運算是台灣是最蠻複雜或困難的工程"},{"start":5871.134,"end":5893.489,"text":"臺中港道市區裡面的臺灣大道也是繁忙的整個交通非常繁忙的路線那也要經過這個有一些橋樑甚至要做兩層的經過斷層所以我們基本設計的部分會根據專家學者的建議做修正"},{"start":5896.011,"end":5914.431,"text":"整個來協助藍線能夠我們是希望更有效率的修正當然現在正在修正當中但是我們希望專家學者給的這個經驗還有意見是真正的可以第一個有效率第二個是真正符合臺中市的地形地貌跟地形所有的這樣子當然這個工程專業我就交給我們工程會的專家學者"},{"start":5916.673,"end":5916.813,"text":"主席"},{"start":5934.629,"end":5949.665,"text":"關心淨零碳排淨零轉型尤其我們8月8號國家氣候變遷對策委員會成立的第一次會議就在談到我們公共採購是不是如何來促進淨零轉型那這個部分就剛剛很多人在講的我在5月29號也曾經質詢過"},{"start":5953.689,"end":5980.52,"text":"就是說我們對於未來公共工程要帶頭減碳要怎麼雙贏利多所以我那時候要求建立碳排資料庫第二個要明定減碳的基準值第三輔導產業碳排的認證你知道嗎主委我要提醒你我們的團隊實在是你知道嗎左邊黃色這一個塊就是你們回文給我的我覺得回文的很沒有禮貌而且很不切實際而且很沒有內容"},{"start":5981.46,"end":6004.854,"text":"短期工具指引看盤講廢話中期目標給我階段性目標這不是廢話嗎長期監理這是你們6月份回覆的未來請回覆本席的公文的時候可不可以更針對要點跟你們要做的工作內容跟時程好好的給我回覆好不好"},{"start":6005.394,"end":6030.977,"text":"主委可以嗎這個大家那麼關心的事情你們怎麼會這麼的敷衍呢好接下來我就要問了我們現在要建立碳排資料庫我贊成我也支持工程會但是第一個環境部認不認我們未來的碳排資料庫裡面的減碳的係數計算目前有跟環境部協調過他認不認帳"},{"start":6034.036,"end":6062.389,"text":"可以作為未來探費收取的依據嗎我們這個是探牌係數希望是收集起來希望提供給在做設計的時候在做探盤查的時候來使用可是剛剛主委你在回答其他委員的時候你有說我們探牌資料庫成立建立了之後我們還會建立一個試算系統估算系統估算系統好好叫估算系統"},{"start":6063.871,"end":6082.601,"text":"那很多的公共工程從設計的時候就引用你們的估算系統來做那這個係數我還質疑第一個你們說現在513項的第三方驗證這第三方驗證又是哪裡來的驗證是我們現在經濟部標檢局公告的那17家機構驗證的嗎"},{"start":6086.926,"end":6107.401,"text":"未來這個驗證獲得這個係數的計算我再確定一次環境部有確認過嗎他未來認不認我跟委員報告如果說環境部要依據碳排來收集碳費那這個是向人民收集碳費他應該在他的相關法律裡面去訂定標準"},{"start":6108.622,"end":6120.47,"text":"不對囉那主委那這個碳排資料庫如果你做這樣的切割的話那你又告訴各公共工程的所有的設計開始就要把工程的每一個環節的這個碳係數都要估算出來"},{"start":6123.852,"end":6148.998,"text":"那估算出來之後很多人都會認為說這是政府給我的資料庫我依據這個政府的資料庫我來做這個這個碳的係數的一個計算計算的時候我可以掌握說我這個公共工程可能可以減碳多少那未來呢我在跟政府因為環境部對人民來講叫做政府那環境部也是政府機關那我在跟環境部申報"},{"start":6150.981,"end":6152.562,"text":"主委我現在就在提醒你啦你看喔再回到剛剛上個夜"},{"start":6180.18,"end":6185.911,"text":"你光是現在第一個碳排資料庫的建立才不到一半因為還有589項還沒有驗證都還沒有另外第三方驗證"},{"start":6194.366,"end":6218.753,"text":"513項的第三方驗證到底算不算數是不是經濟部公告的17家驗證單位來驗證的我也不知道未來還沒有驗證的589項要不要經過現在經濟部已經公布的那17家的驗證單位的驗證才算數這個你還沒有對外說清楚這第一點第二點我為什麼要這樣子"},{"start":6220.066,"end":6239.993,"text":"要求你們提醒你們因為呢如果你們建立了這個碳排資料庫僅止於像竹蔚你剛剛講的只是讓設計階段的工程人員也好設計單位的人員也好來做這一項公共工程的一個碳係數的參考的話"},{"start":6242.506,"end":6260.363,"text":"那這個參考有用嗎?我不知道因為這會牽涉到後端未來這個公共工程他們在核報環境部所謂的要去檢視他的碳量啊要需不需要繳碳費啊那能不能作為一個依據"},{"start":6262.305,"end":6277.9,"text":"這個會引起國人很大的疑慮喔第二個如果在這個方面剛剛主委跟我講說沒有這只是一個參考不是依據那請你要提醒環境部你剛剛跟我講喔環境部現在資料很少"},{"start":6279.002,"end":6279.182,"text":"我們看碳排"},{"start":6297.799,"end":6319.233,"text":"大戶有的是發電廠或者是煉油廠他那個碳是大戶那我們這個公共工程當然量很大啦但是因為他的單每個鋼筋或泥土那個很大那我的意思是說我們這個是設計設計他是廠商設計者可以選擇的我要用A原料或B原料"},{"start":6319.753,"end":6320.554,"text":"這個也有環境部決定"},{"start":6333.118,"end":6349.852,"text":"所以你現在這樣子講就是說到目前為止你跟環境部就這一個事情上面都還沒有討論過環境部他也可以訂定相關標準是根據什麼標準來收費那環境部要不要依據你的這個計算的這個系統來做看資料庫來做這個依據這還是環境部來決定"},{"start":6354.284,"end":6358.548,"text":"我相信環境部會訂定一個依據啦那環境部有這樣的專業啦那目前我們是起步階段趕快收集這些坦白說環境部"},{"start":6376.944,"end":6394.934,"text":"環境部有這樣的專業我跟你講主委到最後環境部還是會來找公共工程委員會啦公共工程誰管的你管的啊好啦我們跟環境部密切來不是環境部他可以知道說公共工程的這個碳排怎麼計算然後呢應該訂什麼基準啊這個基準訂了之後如果這個公共工程超過了我要怎麼收取"},{"start":6405.042,"end":6427.008,"text":"這個我相信他會來問你啦主委我是提醒啦因為現在是你講的針對大戶啦所以我不知道這個大戶的定義是什麼啦那今年10月要上路上路之後呢我們的公共工程的大戶又是怎麼定義我也不知道我現在是我是門外漢"},{"start":6428.268,"end":6445.288,"text":"但是我相信國人跟很多的基層的這些工程廠商大概跟我一樣因為他可能也沒有讀過什麼專業的書啦所以他會跟我一樣問說如果公共工程委員會都沒有辦法回答我了那我怎麼辦我怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":6450.445,"end":6477.063,"text":"我們會跟環境部來協調一個方式他將來可以那未來好了我只要再等三年五年後你總是要做嘛三年五年後你說我們所有的公共工程都要減碳然後呢要可能未來會牽涉到碳費的收取那你總是要一個計算基準嘛這個基準到底是誰定啊阿你說環境部定阿環境部他了解公共工程嗎"},{"start":6483.067,"end":6494.953,"text":"公共工程的這個攤費的收取標準怎麼辦主委那當然目前來看是你現在是做指引我知道啦我們是現階段做指引啦"},{"start":6495.749,"end":6522.175,"text":"環境部如果根據工程會這個資料庫來做修正是比較快速的方法對嘛我想當然了嘛大家認為這個專業是在公共工程委員會嘛所以我就來問你的意見嘛那環境部自己本身沒有公共工程的相關的專家或者是相關的制定的一個依據的時候他來詢問公共工程委員會那我們委員會的這個碳排的資料庫會不會成為是一個依據的標準"},{"start":6523.535,"end":6538.18,"text":"會不會我不知道現在你跟我講不是那未來會不會如果未來會的話那回到我剛剛在提醒你的喔如果未來會的話你的這個整個的第三方驗證"},{"start":6539.773,"end":6561.243,"text":"到底算不算數再來跟國際接軌到底有沒有接軌算不算數那未來你還有589項是完全還沒有驗證的那你要如何進行如何跟國際法規接軌我只是提醒未來是還很多要做所以拜託這個實際上的問題"},{"start":6564.605,"end":6565.766,"text":"何欣淳委員質詢"},{"start":6587.137,"end":6597.308,"text":"接下來邀請廖先祥委員質詢在這邊先再預告一下就是我們等一下在魯明哲召委質詢之後休息10分鐘謝謝好謝謝召委請我們陳主委請陳金德主委我們環境部部長我們來"},{"start":6610.595,"end":6617.68,"text":"今天大家都非常在關心淨零碳排當然政府常常會提一些比較遠的、比較宏觀的一個目標比如說R1100、2050淨零碳排我們工程會也訂定了一個目標"},{"start":6637.012,"end":6661.395,"text":"就是2030年碳減目標定為2005年至少減大概25%正負1%嘛這是我們定的目標嘛對不對這是國發會這是國發會定的目標那我們工程會有沒有自己定的目標工程會因為不是這個業務的主管機關但是因為公共工程的碳排在將近10%不然如果說這個不是我們的那個業務的話我們今天要討論什麼"},{"start":6662.256,"end":6680.957,"text":"因為我們在公共工程的基本設計的審查是屬於公共工程會的業務所以我們在審查階段或者是所以你們只負責統計而已是不是你們不設定目標我們當然可以審查他的基本設計包括金之獎的頒發等等可以用這些工具呢讓整個公共工程能夠減少碳排"},{"start":6681.823,"end":6698.629,"text":"我們也努力在公共工程的部分來減少碳排減少碳排是不是我們工程會的目標還是我們只是做一個統計的一個業務而已就公共工程的減碳當然工程會要負責是我們的目標嗎對對那所以你們有沒有設定辭職的目標"},{"start":6700.369,"end":6727.491,"text":"這個部分很難去設定說多少人要減少多少因為公共工程他問題是我們政府就已經明定2050淨零碳排啊因為公共工程會增加會有減少各個每年公共工程預算各個部會一定都要訂立自己的目標嘛當然我們工程會可能我們實體的工程不是我們工程會在做嘛所以你們也有要求各部會15個部會要提出來這個減碳的一個相關的"},{"start":6729.059,"end":6755.95,"text":"報告委員就是說公共工程它每年在增加在變化所以我們沒有辦法具體說明年後年要減少多少碳排沒有辦法但是我們可以要求各機關在他們推動公共工程的時候比方說依據工程會提供的工具來做這個碳排在基本設計的時候做這個減碳的這樣的設計"},{"start":6758.931,"end":6759.471,"text":"是這樣的意思啊"},{"start":6779.816,"end":6803.319,"text":"我們是一個督導的單位我們當然期許各個招標機關要有一個減碳的措施那剛剛主委有提到很多設計階段的時候的碳排係數那如果說我們只是訂定一個碳排的係數那好像就只是在簡單做一個統計的工具而已吧目前看起來是這樣"},{"start":6804.6,"end":6817.97,"text":"因為碳排係數比方說鋼筋什麼樣的鋼筋他每噸或每公斤排碳多少那叫碳排係數那你這個假工程用了多少這個產品你可以計算這個工程的排碳多少"},{"start":6819.5,"end":6833.193,"text":"他作為設計的依據他作為他設計的依據他整個可以算出他這個工程完成之後排了多少碳那需要減多少碳那就是要設定一個目標嗎"},{"start":6836.633,"end":6858.411,"text":"不是 是吧 問題就只是給他一個說你這個水泥的碳排的單位是多少 鋼筋的單位是多少然後設計單位去把它設計出來 然後告訴我這個總體的公共工程的碳排是多少比方說他也可以用一些再生料源 是這些比較低碳的這個 對其實就剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候啦"},{"start":6859.372,"end":6873.144,"text":"就很單純的感受到我們公共工程委員會並沒有去訂定相關的一些目標或是您說的這個碳排係數逐年是不是要調降這件事情"},{"start":6874.5,"end":6898.505,"text":"我們會去訂定碳排係數我們不要講到那麼大的一個公共工程我們單純只單項水泥鋼筋的碳排係數我們會不會去設定目標每年去把它調降這個碳排係數跟他的生產工法有關是他的工法是什麼樣的工法如果固定的工法他的那個碳排係數會對啊那那那那他跟我說是固定工法是固定的碳排係數"},{"start":6899.645,"end":6900.186,"text":"每單位每單位"},{"start":6909.471,"end":6937.66,"text":"原料他排了多少碳所以這個是固定的對啊固定的阿所以他要不要如果是固定的話我們減什麼碳他可以不選擇高排高排排碳係數比較高的產品用一些比較低甚至喔我們在討論碳排係數的時候啦每一家廠商到時候因為有碳稅的問題所以每一家廠商的碳排氣數實務上都會不一樣對不對不會碳排氣數是固定的只是他用了多少量"},{"start":6939.059,"end":6953.579,"text":"如果說每一家的碳排氣數都是固定的每個產品每個產品的碳排氣數是固定的那減什麼碳那我們個別廠商為什麼要去買為什麼要去買碳稅為什麼要繳碳稅每家廠商碳排氣數是固定的"},{"start":6955.188,"end":6983.586,"text":"所謂係數是單位產品的排放量他用了一千噸一萬噸所以整個不同的工程排的就不一樣那排的量牽涉到他要繳多少碳費我們單純就講個別產品嘛對不對我們就單純講水泥就好了嘛每一家水泥公司他到時候因為經濟部或是環境部他會有相關的碳碳稅對不對或碳費每一家廠商要去做碳盤查所以每一家他會去"},{"start":6984.983,"end":7011.629,"text":"查核就是剛剛核心從委員講的經濟部有10多家廠商會去查每一家廠商你每生產每單位的原料的時候你會生產多少的碳對不對那如果說你超過標準的話那你是要去買綠電還是你去買碳稅等等的所以每一家的每一家廠商的這個碳排氣數會是不一樣的但是我們如果說在公共工程委員會所訂定的碳排氣數都是固定的話"},{"start":7016.235,"end":7039.805,"text":"生產出來的水泥用在公共工程那比方說甲種甲類的水泥他當排放係數多少每公斤多少他用了多少這是一個碳排係數就水泥廠本身他在生產水泥的過程當中用多少燃料這些燃料排了多少碳才是這一家水泥廠他的排碳對所以每一家都會不一樣對不對那當然那跟他生產的量不一樣啊"},{"start":7040.205,"end":7050.557,"text":"每一家都會不一樣 也會因為它的製程也會有所不一樣對不對就是它產生了多少量 產生多少量 固定量每申請一公噸 它所產生的碳排都會不一樣"},{"start":7052.389,"end":7081.773,"text":"是吧不然為什麼我們要優化為什麼要優化我們的產線為什麼我們經濟部要去補助廠商去做生產線的優化減碳的優化如果說你每一個碳排氣數都固定的話那為什麼廠商要來做優化產生的水泥那我們就會算出這種水泥每單位每公里我認為你這樣子的問題你這樣子的計算方式有很大的問題我真的這樣計算以後會產生很大的問題就像剛剛何清純委員講的你一個國家要有兩套制度你倒是要走"},{"start":7082.314,"end":7085.952,"text":"走經濟部環境部還是我們公共工程委員會的一個計算方式"},{"start":7089.972,"end":7111.238,"text":"每一個部會每一個中央部會訂定的方式都不一樣那廠商怎麼依選目前只有公共工程委員會在收集這些資料當然有些機關也有比如說水利他也有在收集我覺得最基本的每一個部會所認定的碳排的係數碳排的數量一定都是由一樣的國家的認證的單位"},{"start":7113.793,"end":7129.704,"text":"同樣檢驗的合可的單位去做盤查我們最重要的是去做目標的訂定而不是單純去做一個統計的數字我們為了去做一個目標的訂定廠商才有去做檢探的一個動力"},{"start":7131.346,"end":7151.167,"text":"我們會把這個碳排係數更加的檢視啦跟其他第三方共同來好不好不要單純就是只是一個統計而已不是一個統計而已我希望我們的公共工程會會去定一個實際的目標依據2050我們國家淨零碳排的一個目標我們逐年希望"},{"start":7152.168,"end":7166.978,"text":"我不要講總體因為總體可能會因為我們公共工程發報的多寡會影響到我們排放的多寡而是我們的每一個公共工程裡面你剛剛講的碳排係數我們去做一個逐年的去把它去做調降"},{"start":7167.839,"end":7194.786,"text":"那廠商他才有動力去做他產線的優化或者是去做一個淨泥碳排的一個目標一起來配合國家的政策我們才能做到實質的一個從最基本的每一個公共工程的單項去做要求你每個單項都去要求的時候你總體的部分你當然就會下降好不好以上麻煩主委啦謝謝我剛剛就講了其實跟剛剛很多委員講的都是類似的好不好希望我們去設定一個目標而不是只是一個統計而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":7197.276,"end":7198.677,"text":"有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":7228.828,"end":7234.257,"text":"委員長好陳主委今天這個這就要跟你來談一下因為發覺這個淘氣公司從T3開始這一路"},{"start":7240.336,"end":7261.854,"text":"不管是風風雨雨遇到很多的困難那我發覺後面工程會後面的救火隊包括招標的過程前一任主委乾脆來主導他整個T3三航廈三航廈中間的很多的一個困難逐步去幫忙這個是我們在上一屆上一屆的一個重點"},{"start":7263.315,"end":7284.383,"text":"結果好不容易把大部分問題這個建築物的問題大致解決就又來了T3的問題解決沒有他們不嫌問題多啦所以現在T3大家要進出T3除了車子載到門口的之外在航廈之間串接的他們招標了17億"},{"start":7286.638,"end":7288.359,"text":"請問在7月份出了一個新聞說"},{"start":7317.412,"end":7330.278,"text":"自駕得標團隊得標了得標之後不到半年就準備換裡面最重要的一個部分那我在看到這個新聞我相信你應該也"},{"start":7331.921,"end":7344.213,"text":"聽到這個消息你應該更清楚但是我跟你講一般民眾擔心什麼事呢未來要蓋T3的原因是因為政府告訴我們未來這整個機場吞吐量大概是到5000萬人次"},{"start":7347.316,"end":7374.583,"text":"甚至最高的容量到8000萬人是機場公司說的嘛那你說平均給到這個的部分每一天透過我們這樣的一個接駁系統的人數是非常非常高的所以第一個不能開玩笑所以大家都期待一個我們技術是不是純熟第二個我們這個案子標出去呢那有沒有委託到一個純熟的單位民眾這樣的想法你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":7376.227,"end":7377.969,"text":"你對這個案子的了解程度如何?"},{"start":7393.067,"end":7412.417,"text":"那這個變更我想政府採購法有一定的條件必須滿足這個條件而且是他的這個機關就辦理機關應該是淘氣公司辦理機關的同意才可以那我想我能夠理解的就是政府採購法這一方面比較有嚴格的規定"},{"start":7414.07,"end":7442.795,"text":"好那這個東西不是蓋房子也簡單來講我們今天在談的一個標案如果說做個公園換個水電廠商我們知道太多人會了不敢講說幾十萬個只要幾萬個合格包商而且國家都把它分好了甚至建築你是甲級什麼級的一金二儲隨便找都有嘛可是我們在談的是我覺得現在工程會你們真的要注意很多新的"},{"start":7444.977,"end":7463.377,"text":"新的願景新的目標就擺明說今天我要換或者換不換市場上沒有幾個人會的這種東西那你要換廠商跟一般的工程換廠商是完全兩碼事喔我必須要講這新的東西為什麼大家擔心擔心的原因是說"},{"start":7464.278,"end":7464.939,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":7481.255,"end":7508.185,"text":"是所有的軌道像這樣的一個靈魂所以今天要換的是系統廠商就簡單來講我們在招標的過程來的廠商一組一組講的滿嘴泡沫泡沫經驗多少歷練多少你們放心交給我我系統廠商怎麼樣多強多棒弄完之後百分之百滿意不光是快速安全講的整片"},{"start":7509.586,"end":7530.504,"text":"那人家三個團隊啊 終於覺得青睞你了嘛因為你說的比較好 我青睞你而且中間是系統廠商的優勢是最重要的系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的一個部分安全怎麼樣 講得特別多那你跟一個做車體的現在主標的廠商是主要做車體的"},{"start":7532.026,"end":7539.837,"text":"當然就是電動大巴那怎麼樣去動怎麼樣去接客人二三行下中間會不會有另外的行下那我是覺得"},{"start":7541.536,"end":7564.341,"text":"你這個東西不是說合不合法令的問題是說我的天吶我們精挑細選在我們採購法在工程會的一個領域我們設計的制度設計到底出了問題沒有我們花了這麼大精力上網招標也寫了這麼多的說明服務建議書然後請了這麼多的專家學者難道失靈了嗎"},{"start":7565.521,"end":7569.945,"text":"主委 其實這種新科技的產品我覺得它嚴重程度尤其這種公共運輸我覺得你覺得像這樣的做法"},{"start":7585.678,"end":7585.918,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":7606.54,"end":7632.069,"text":"針對這個案要求淘機公司那麼來說明原因我們會具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法他得以更換分包廠商的這樣的條件或者是會不會影響到剛才委員所說的影響到整個將來營運的這個品質因為系統廠商出問題就表示你當時提的proposal你當時服務建議書有關系統的部分其實有一部分"},{"start":7632.489,"end":7657.227,"text":"都不是真的因為廠商都換人了還要第二個來驗證你的服務建議書我們要按照服務建議書來履約那他到底是不是真的不是我寫的我跟你講這真的是一團亂但是我在這裡鄭重拜託就像T3一樣這個問題不亞於T3行下的一個建築我希望你不光是監督我希望以你們的專業去幫忙好不好去幫忙他們要來去解決這個複雜的問題為什麼呢服務建議書假設"},{"start":7661.03,"end":7686.675,"text":"是他的分包廠商在法院都有公正的他不讓他不讓然後咧你下一家要來那好你不要按照我的服務建議書這是我的喔我的know how這中間後面的一些問題第一個你會變成一個尷尬的問題T3硬體終於完工了中間串接的運輸體系差時間差很多所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下好不好幫忙一下那第二個因為時間的關係"},{"start":7689.278,"end":7689.558,"text":"李立立委員"},{"start":7708.519,"end":7708.699,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7729.335,"end":7753.558,"text":"想一想好吧既然是實驗嘛國家總是要實驗可是這幾年看到2021年他已經進入台鐵了因為沒有人管啊我研究不出來不成功so what不重要啊我政府的錢照領啊當你一些委託或者試行這個案件我就算了你到2021開始介入台鐵多元通信的這個行控4.0啊"},{"start":7754.659,"end":7781.724,"text":"坦白講很多的交通專業的外面的學者都嚇到結果他當時說我們台灣要創新全世界第一唯一自己的一個行控安全系統發生兩次大車禍有人這樣說理論上聽起來是好事可是你的廠商呢他說我在美國某一個城市做過了這個相關的自駕什麼一個系統結果我們通過了"},{"start":7783.204,"end":7812.298,"text":"運安會去查我們透過外交部去查甚至有委員直接寫給那個城市查無此事查無此公事在台灣耀武揚威東騙西騙上了一大堆的節目好這個部分本來2021年行共4.0這只是初步的計畫也是找一貫鐵路來跑跑看花了5600多萬然後事實上後面還有非常大的計畫就被叫停了叫停了"},{"start":7812.958,"end":7824.591,"text":"今年的4月2號我們的這個運安會說他說實話他這個根本不可行啊這根本不能用啊講得很難聽啊所以我的問題點是說"},{"start":7827.659,"end":7854.246,"text":"我們的政府就算是財力很好也不能這樣的玩啊不能這樣玩他弄完之後沒事啊該領的錢走了那我們就發覺現在因為沒事嘛我就賺五千六百對扣掉成本我就賺嘛系統software比較看不太到嘛好所以我就賺了嘛那接下來賺哪一條A就賺機場三行價PMS自家系統嘛我再來賺一條嘛對不對"},{"start":7856.566,"end":7870.472,"text":"我管他這麼多現在李立又是我們剛剛講機場三行下這個自駕接駁系統的系統廠商所以我剛剛講說你可不可以換其實我很兩難"},{"start":7872.253,"end":7888.835,"text":"我希望換得到 因為這家廠商我是真的很怕所以我希望你去介入的原因是說這是一個人民的安全而且是我們國家的門面如果說在這樣的搞下去的話這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":7889.696,"end":7909.647,"text":"第二個是針對這樣的類似的廠商好像又不符合101翻了一下他到底合不合就一直做不出時機然後能不能用101條款把他能夠排除在我們用採購法為所有的工程單位第一行業去擋一下就好像"},{"start":7910.828,"end":7911.508,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7931.514,"end":7943.643,"text":"或者三個案子沒有做出實際的時候我真的希望我們工程會對這種困擾你看他現在又進去逃機了你我都可能要去做那個自駕系統"},{"start":7945.066,"end":7962.494,"text":"那萬一電池有火災怎麼辦萬一系統門不開怎麼辦我坦白講我會怕我先講我會怕很多人民也在怕所以這個的部分是不是能夠想方設法好你們在採購法第一個你們去幫忙他"},{"start":7964.455,"end":7984.436,"text":"採購法對於很多委員都問了嘛總諮詢院委員問了嘛所以這樣的一直在擦邊球我不知道廠商有問題廠商有問題不合格的廠商我們把它叫做這個渣男廠商好了奇怪可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵啊為什麼這些採購的單位老是"},{"start":7986.678,"end":7986.958,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8006.162,"end":8035.023,"text":"主委這樣時間到,您做個結論好不好好,針對這一類的廠商我們希望能夠建設這個廠商履歷優秀的廠商跟剛才講的渣男廠商我們都分別建立履歷供機關來做評選的時候做參考好,那請你去多幫忙淘機公司,謝謝好,謝謝魯明哲召委質詢我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8652.817,"end":8655.838,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來邀請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席主席凡請工程會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":8677.612,"end":8699.2,"text":"委員早主委好 主委早 主委 審計部針對112年中央政府總決算的審核報告已經在今年的7月29日公告 工程會有收到嗎應該有 但是不會簽到我這裡OK 好 那有關工程會需要加強和改進的部分 那主委您就是沒有看過了"},{"start":8702.407,"end":8706.548,"text":"政府採購法第11條第一項規定,主管機關應設立採購資訊中心,統一來收集共通性的商品和同等"},{"start":8719.312,"end":8720.033,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8736.585,"end":8736.905,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":8761.006,"end":8788.542,"text":"價格應該是我們有一個資料有一個系統就是讓這個招標的這個機關那麼他們在要抓這個預算的時候這個工程大概預算是多少那工程會有一個基本的價格跟一個估算系統主要是提供給各辦理公共工程採購機關作為參考的依據是有這樣的一個估價系統也有單項的這個價格"},{"start":8791.364,"end":8802.627,"text":"我們審計部的報告指出資料庫沒有提供決標價格對應標筆資訊還有底價的價格那請問主委那缺乏標筆資訊還有底價金額的資料庫有助於我們各機關來做參考嗎決標應該有政府採購法我們的電子採購網決標的廠商金額都是屬於應該公告的項目這個都有公告所以不會沒有收集"},{"start":8818.439,"end":8818.679,"text":"這個要不要底價是來"},{"start":8834.153,"end":8834.873,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8849.321,"end":8854.903,"text":"本席想就叫主委有關我們傳輸價格資料編碼正確率過低通常他的流程是價格資料上傳然後供向編碼解析然後再來公佈我們價格的資料"},{"start":8875.069,"end":8876.19,"text":"這部分我請主委來回答"},{"start":8900.689,"end":8920.348,"text":"有關於編碼的正確性因為在公共工程的編碼會比較細所以我們現在希望就是我們會朝向就是說把這個各個編碼的要求的內涵再把它講精確一點希望各個機關能夠正確的了解這個編碼的內容然後提升它的正確率"},{"start":8920.708,"end":8920.828,"text":"具體的規劃．"},{"start":8937.288,"end":8964.231,"text":"具體的說明只要像這種正確率低於40%我們每個機關都會把它每個月都會喊文請他們要注意要提高這個正確率然後我們在年底的時候也會統一就正確率比較低的機關會特別把它列出來然後在整個中央單位都會提醒再說一次是"},{"start":8964.811,"end":8988.019,"text":"我們工程會這邊會補穿我們的價格資料庫嗎?並且納入將督導納入考核的績效嗎?我們會納進去會提供給我們的集合小組還有我們的經建會在預算上面的控管目前的正確率只有一半那有沒有計畫說要提升正確率?"},{"start":8991.449,"end":8991.629,"text":"主席"},{"start":9008.553,"end":9034.619,"text":"那主委這邊想要這邊就是拜託主委那我們這邊110年至今5000萬以上的公共建設案曾經流包的件數均於70%以上那代表重大工程招標過程中有很多難處導致流標那招標的機關還要需要修改招標相關規定之後再跑一次流程那導致時間延擋影響工程進行"},{"start":9035.479,"end":9060.556,"text":"那目前我們桃園規劃中的重大交通建設在捷運的部分有山陰線延伸八德然後還有我們桃園的捷運綠線中線高速公路的部分有八德交流道還有中路交流道那本席希望工程會能夠來積極協助以上的我們的交通建設招標作業那降低流標的可能性順利的讓我們這些重大的工程可以順利招標那請問主委可以承諾本席嗎"},{"start":9060.896,"end":9083.005,"text":"好 這個都是桃園市的相當重要的軌道工程還有道路工程那金額也都很龐大那必要的時候我們工程會會來跟招標單位有的是桃園市政府那麼就合約怎麼修改或者是是不是要有物條等等來進一步來協助讓他順利能夠決標好 謝謝主委以上"},{"start":9090.231,"end":9096.293,"text":"謝謝邱若驊委員質詢接下來邀請蔡奇商委員質詢謝謝主席請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":9120.882,"end":9144.716,"text":"好委員長主委早主委我看了一下那個我們工程會對於列管活化閒置公共設施的這個列管量我看了一下好像這幾年列管的數字108年22件109年17件然後到最近好像都只有9件"},{"start":9146.319,"end":9175.331,"text":"我不知道這個列管只有9件這個數字減少但是我們這個列管就是說我們把列管的件數減少但現在活化的狀況的好壞工程會不知道有沒有去處理這個事情也就是說我這樣舉例好了台中市的這個以台中市而言我們花了八十幾億辦那個花博"},{"start":9176.513,"end":9201.432,"text":"阿花博齁所留下來的場館那在不在現在的列館範圍列館的這個酒店裡面算嗎你們這個酒店含不含台中的花博的留下來場館報告委員這個花博的部分沒有包括在這個酒店是他已經不在列館了是對好來那我舉一些媒體的報導的案例齁來你看齁這個"},{"start":9210.13,"end":9230.301,"text":"這個當然不是最近的新聞這是4月份的新聞花博所留下來以花舞館來講到現在還是蚊子館就是說花博花了八十幾億可是除了部分"},{"start":9231.451,"end":9255.572,"text":"列為公園就是他還是做公園使用這個我本席沒話說但我們蓋的那些場館放到今天我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的就是對工程會你們沒有列館那沒有列館呢他還是蚊子館或者甚至他現在已經委外但是成效很差"},{"start":9257.483,"end":9267.949,"text":"很差啦這個好像也沒有什麼中央對工程會來講好像也沒有列入什麼樣的這個考核機制主委是這樣嗎"},{"start":9271.499,"end":9290.753,"text":"閒置空間的列管是工程會被指派的項目之一那因為全國這個閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題那數目數量非常龐大 比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校"},{"start":9292.595,"end":9316.996,"text":"每個國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大所以我才會對列管有一點質疑為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦"},{"start":9318.799,"end":9335.478,"text":"副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查"},{"start":9336.9,"end":9360.416,"text":"那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把他列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法"},{"start":9361.437,"end":9364.159,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9392.75,"end":9404.229,"text":"這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個"},{"start":9406.365,"end":9407.465,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9422.406,"end":9446.261,"text":"又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌"},{"start":9447.422,"end":9458.001,"text":"不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管"},{"start":9461.035,"end":9485.629,"text":"我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做就合理了就該地方政府它本身還有多少餘量"},{"start":9486.689,"end":9506.3,"text":"我跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校 這個都是學校改建"},{"start":9508.11,"end":9534.703,"text":"這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在關但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習"},{"start":9536.241,"end":9537.141,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9549.488,"end":9565.558,"text":"行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對啊我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔"},{"start":9567.179,"end":9582.684,"text":"棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙"},{"start":9583.919,"end":9606.657,"text":"所以我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中"},{"start":9607.358,"end":9623.756,"text":"像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子"},{"start":9624.497,"end":9644.849,"text":"我覺得主委你除了到台中看看這個捷運藍線之外也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的這個不是一個小小的一個你說學校廢校然後放在那裡這不是這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該這個工程會要好好的去監督一下台中市政府"},{"start":9647.011,"end":9674.151,"text":"那接下來我還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的部分我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面"},{"start":9676.055,"end":9705.02,"text":"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做"},{"start":9706.032,"end":9733.152,"text":"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳牌是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12"},{"start":9735.199,"end":9737.381,"text":"目標122020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面"},{"start":9752.625,"end":9777.475,"text":"我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是"},{"start":9779.314,"end":9784.054,"text":"立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實這個可能是參考環境部的"},{"start":9785.766,"end":9795.053,"text":"對目標啦對對對那沒關係就是工程會我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦有目標我們就要有達成要怎麼達成這個目標我2025要到哪裡2030要到哪裡這樣我們才可以要求主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成"},{"start":9811.084,"end":9835.841,"text":"所以對我們來說2050的淨零碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的"},{"start":9838.09,"end":9838.67,"text":"蔡奇昌委員質詢"},{"start":9872.517,"end":9873.117,"text":"林國成主席陳主委"},{"start":9892.794,"end":9918.541,"text":"我想因為我們今天我們立法院同仁一直談這個減碳未來碳匯的這些問題所以本席就不再贅述但是有一點我必須要提醒主委這不是只有衛福部的問題這個到最後那個環境部他訂出來的一個標準"},{"start":9919.987,"end":9931.353,"text":"我們主管所有的合約規範是要在這裡有所約束所以我要提醒主委在這個部分特別提醒主委"},{"start":9932.435,"end":9958.917,"text":"不要把它當成非你的業務到最後因為我們所有公共工程的所有合約規範一定在這個部分是要放下去依照什麼東西所以這個你要責成你的這些規範合約的單位要趕快去做研究所以這個我特別要提醒主委一下"},{"start":9960.063,"end":9966.26,"text":"那另外我還是老話一句因為我非常關心勞工薪資"},{"start":9968.046,"end":9968.326,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":9992.789,"end":10013.164,"text":"這個部分他的強制規定現在到底我們在整個合約規範當中定的執行如何那修改的如何主委這個部分你可以不可以告訴本席我請處長來回答好可以來處長"},{"start":10015.948,"end":10023.601,"text":"報告委員有關派駐勞工的這個薪資證明已經在我們勞務契約範本裡面列為廠商請款要提出來的單據"},{"start":10025.376,"end":10048.196,"text":"是 我知道 我要知道的就是說你任何一個合約規範裡面因為公共工程所有的合約規範包括採購法都是我們公共工程委員會來做嘛我現在要了解你現在這個法令是不是已經既備完善把它納入規範"},{"start":10051.238,"end":10071.331,"text":"規範的時候我是要了解這個問題是不是通通把它放進去了跟委員報告我們現在是透過契約範本的要求如果是真派駐勞工的話我們是要求說這個廠商在請款的時候要檢附派駐勞工的這個發放的證明"},{"start":10073.832,"end":10096.319,"text":"好上次我建議的不是這樣吳主委跟陳主委都答應我說要研議這些也把他因為他合約規範他得標大廠商他有下游廠商你們也發現到這個下游廠商有時候我"},{"start":10097.039,"end":10097.839,"text":"所以 主委"},{"start":10126.716,"end":10150.702,"text":"我還是為什麼我還是問這個我希望這些不是只有派駐員工而是連下游廠商這些員工你們要把他定的很清楚所以主委我要拜託你要折騰這些因為事實上來講你不能不確保勞工的這些工資薪資去領不到"},{"start":10151.502,"end":10178.689,"text":"所以主委你能不能答應我這個會期雖然你們沒有把它納入那這個部分是不是還講你們的那個那個法律研究單位能不能把它放下去就涵蓋小包的薪資如果讓我發現你不付我照樣可以扣你的一倍款啊扣你的工資啊扣你等等這個法令這個法規把它明確化"},{"start":10179.929,"end":10180.309,"text":"對勞工才會有幫助"},{"start":10198.038,"end":10214.975,"text":"那我們會再研議比較嚴謹的請款方式來保障最底下這一層的派駐勞工他不要說一天該給他3000塊就3000塊不能說到最後他只領到1800塊這一類的情形我們會再研議一個比較努力的方法"},{"start":10218.959,"end":10245.839,"text":"因為我們雖然有這些這是派駐勞工你們的意思也是這樣可是你泡住勞工他只限定大包商但是他有分包商或小包商他完全拿不到工資所以這個我要拜託主委因為我們是主管合約裡面規範的主管機關所以我們訂的很清楚很明確那當然大家就沒話講所以這點"},{"start":10246.579,"end":10274.992,"text":"主委我不希望下一次你到立法院我還問這個問題沒有一個解決拜託主委好不好好另外一個我特別啊就是要跟主委來談限制性招標的問題其實當然限制性招標啊也是我們公共工程裡面所有的採購法裡面首榮喜但是主委"},{"start":10276.587,"end":10281.08,"text":"這個部分我特別要提醒你你有沒有去發現到媒體廣告"},{"start":10285.186,"end":10311.838,"text":"佔了多數都是限制性招標限制性招標我說實在的啦我們打開窗戶說亮話啦大家默契都有啦這個限制性招標裡面名為限制性公開招標但是裡面技巧啊是非常之多的要給誰就給誰所以主委你是管這一塊的"},{"start":10312.958,"end":10321.946,"text":"我提供一個資訊給你媒體廣告限制性招標非常嚴重這個你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10324.197,"end":10350.158,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那政府採購法裡面各種招標方式都明定而且只要首長簽核那麼他採取哪種招標方式決標方式那麼主要都是合乎法律規定那主要重點是說他有沒有違反法律或者是說有其他的違私那我們工程會當然要來介入啦否則的話就遵守主辦的意見"},{"start":10350.638,"end":10364.006,"text":"我剛才已經講了嘛限制性招標當然是合法的東西但是這裡面藏了非常之多我幾例那單位給誰就給誰就會變成一個"},{"start":10366.863,"end":10368.845,"text":"公共工程委員會 坦白講啊"},{"start":10389.105,"end":10411.878,"text":"他要撤銷你們這個單位我是極力主張這個單位不能撤的啊為什麼 太重要了你可以去問每一次我都挺你們挺到底的但是如果會產生有手瑕疵的招標方法就要檢討就要檢討我現在指定出來的就是這些媒體廣告"},{"start":10413.971,"end":10414.131,"text":"主委"},{"start":10440.258,"end":10460.955,"text":"最後一個我特別跟主委報告營建業一月份到八月份已經發生公安死亡人數是比去年以前高的所以這些雖然主管機關是勞動部但是監督機關公共工程委員會"},{"start":10461.676,"end":10475.724,"text":"也要所以我也要拜託主委這個部分你也要重視一下不要公安事件窮出不前這樣的話我認為這個一定要去加強好不好這個要注意一下好謝謝好謝謝林國成委員質詢接下來邀請游浩委員質詢"},{"start":10499.304,"end":10501.768,"text":"請陳主委委員早主委早"},{"start":10511.038,"end":10538.488,"text":"本席要特別要感謝您公共工程委員會在這次南投開米的風災那第一時間也情志帶隊來地方前往看災表達公共工程委員會對於南投縣的關懷跟支持那相信中央地方如果一條心那這些災情的這些救災相信才可以讓百姓安心那所以在這裡還是要再次肯定一下主委跟公共工程委員會的各位辛苦同仁"},{"start":10539.088,"end":10545.033,"text":"本席表達這次災害救災及重建經費,縣府許書華縣長及副縣長感受公共工程委員會在協助經費比例上,確實比以往還要多"},{"start":10561.607,"end":10561.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10592.347,"end":10605.774,"text":"謝謝您的大力支持那在目前我們如何在後續的南投縣的災後重建那可以立即的再持續協助南投好 謝謝委員因為南投縣政府這一次的"},{"start":10607.372,"end":10607.852,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":10625.317,"end":10638.265,"text":"整個災損我們核定了33.8億跟原來藍投縣政府所提的請求39億那也差不多就是說不會差很大所以希望這33.8億能夠協助藍投縣政府不管是"},{"start":10643.618,"end":10658.583,"text":"各式各樣的公共設施能夠立即來改善這個是目前的合訂的額數是這樣子好 謝謝主委那所以剛才有特別提到在這個比例上確實比以前工程會協作難途來講"},{"start":10660.143,"end":10680.372,"text":"是很有感的那所以謝謝那同樣的地方上面有在提出一些建議就在現在9月27號召開審查會議之後那在第5批已經提報完那急報急審那像現在預計在這個禮拜的話相關的經費會整個都已經審任通過完畢嗎"},{"start":10683.927,"end":10704.793,"text":"如果有些個案要補件或要再次現刊的那我們會盡速來整理再開這個審議那所以說後面還會再有一次機會像是一些崩塌點再崩落那有需要再現刊再加強還會再解釋就是這個要補件或要完成再次現刊的這個會有補救的機會"},{"start":10706.653,"end":10725.796,"text":"OK好那也謝謝那再來這個部分在南投縣還是再次表達這個171.5億的整體來講南投縣就佔了33億那再次表達感謝也持續的要拜託公共工程委員會主委跟同仁這邊那南投縣其實像現在"},{"start":10726.557,"end":10726.878,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10741.254,"end":10763.746,"text":"那接著要延續今天大家所要探討的重點包括公共工程的一個節能減碳的一個部分那在目前來講COP他整個變遷大會之後那其實在2022年3月公布以及到2025這個淨零談判的這個目標那想要接著就教一下主委"},{"start":10764.426,"end":10787.361,"text":"在目前來講我們發現其實許多的機關尤其是中央部會的機關他們在這個碳排系數的這個相關的數據他們相關的準則其實是非常不一致的那如何能夠在什麼時間點能夠有公共工程委員會對於國家的重大工程能夠有一個統一的指引預計什麼時候會有一個這樣的指引"},{"start":10788.43,"end":10816.328,"text":"有關碳排的指引大概明年114年能夠來完成那碳排係數的收集是持續性的那我們會收集各式各樣的這個建築或營建的的這個原料或相關的一些產品那麼來做平均式來訂出碳排係數這個我們也希望能夠持續收集更廣泛的這樣的這個排放係數"},{"start":10817.208,"end":10830.691,"text":"因為中央的部會他們重大工程還是必須要有所依歸那預期這個指引的話會在114年會完成七列的指引那大概是在上半年還是下半年都會完成"},{"start":10831.624,"end":10853.819,"text":"我們大概都回答是下半年下半年大概幾月的時候之前我想明年底好不好明年底能夠來完成這七頁的質疑好那接著的話上次其實本席曾經提過跟公共工程委員會建議那目前的話重大的公共工程並沒有這個探權管理師的一個規劃那目前的話公共工程委員會對於這個議題它的規劃是如何"},{"start":10857.349,"end":10885.651,"text":"整個公共工程裏面工程預算裏面都會有探盤查的相關的編列那麽也會做生態查核生態查核不管是在設計端還是在執行端或者是各式各樣的評審委員裏面都有生態查核的機制進去我想這個生態查核一部分事實上已經涵蓋了管理碳排這樣的一個"},{"start":10887.153,"end":10891.28,"text":"這是探權管理師的這個角色探權管理探權管理師這部分我們還目前還沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":10899.52,"end":10925.542,"text":"那還是會建議公共工程委員會因為這個2025年的這個目標這是為了下一代那所以說如果相關各種可以在我們的禁令的部分能夠來去加強補充甚至於導入各種專業的力量那本期還是會建議公共工程委員會能夠慎重思考這個有關於探險管理師是會能夠在重大工程中能夠納入我相信這個對於整體來講還是會有加分的"},{"start":10926.076,"end":10953.895,"text":"這個我們來研議因為這個牽涉到這個技師啦他有一些是要透過國家考試取得技師資格技師資格才有簽證他的這個效力嘛所以這個我們通盤來研議那再來就是說這個指引之後就是現在目前縣市政府的碳排放指引的相關宣導跟準則來講那公共工程委員會要如何與縣市政府來做搭配或要求"},{"start":10954.229,"end":10956.311,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10971.064,"end":10993.686,"text":"本期還是跟主委建議一下因為目前的話相關的會議都主要還是在於宣導跟建議那事實上的一個國家的中大公共工程包括縣市政府也佔了中央預算也有相關許多的工程其實都需要做一邊的指引甚至能夠做配合那在對於整個政府的工程在推動上也才有比較明確的一個成果"},{"start":10994.647,"end":11003.236,"text":"本席的建議跟縣市政府的指引跟宣導還到時候配合中央的部分的一個指引能夠一併的落實謝謝好謝謝油化委員質詢接下來邀請徐副會委員質詢"},{"start":11024.596,"end":11026.178,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":11033.101,"end":11033.121,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11063.201,"end":11068.785,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東路線合訂過經過交通部重新檢視之後發現施工有限制包括將來營運也會有困難所以建議改採"},{"start":11092.039,"end":11092.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11117.563,"end":11142.197,"text":"高雄市大部分大概沒有什麼意見但對施工的騎乘造成的影響那麼也有一些疑慮那不過目前因為那個路廊已經有了嘛因為鐵路地下化那個路廊在那裡所以將來採取淺頓在那個路廊旁邊在旁邊然後進入高雄市但是有一部分是要"},{"start":11143.217,"end":11159.002,"text":"要採取地面上作業因為總是都要接到高雄車站所以陳部長也認為說用前頓騎乘縮短施工界面整合好減少交通的影響是可行的"},{"start":11159.822,"end":11182.388,"text":"我想這也是我們希望共同努力的目標那因為我知道主委前陣子也有特別到宜蘭去協調這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭的這部分的一個工程那主委是不是讓朋友可以關心一下也主動來協調一下南業屏東這個案子那高鐵延伸到屏東的部分現在就是路線要確定"},{"start":11183.84,"end":11204.901,"text":"路線確定之後才有辦法進行環評那二階環評大概要試劑要一年審查到半年一年半以上那這部分要花點時間所以要趕快確定路線才能夠進行環評後面的程序所以這個如果這個沒有確定會影響到整個後面的程序"},{"start":11205.899,"end":11217.395,"text":"好再麻煩謝謝主委那主委另外就是因為我們剛好今天我們有一個Santor颱風也要從這個南部這邊來登陸那我知道之前開明颱風"},{"start":11218.422,"end":11240.503,"text":"呃"},{"start":11241.559,"end":11263.468,"text":"上次坎米颱風每個縣市都有災損有的嚴重有的比較不那麼嚴重那屏東當然有些是土石流或者是液體那我跟兩位副主委都分批到各縣市去看屏東也是我去看所以目前已經在審議陸續核定各縣市的補助的要求"},{"start":11264.864,"end":11283.892,"text":"主委那依屏東來看屏東目前報出來的金額是高達8.2億但是我們的年度災害準備金額剩下3.6億有4.6億的一個缺口那針對我們非六都這個財政比較困窮的縣市我們公共工程委員會是不是有這個加速審查"},{"start":11285,"end":11308.913,"text":"補足缺口的一個因應措施那屏東目前是核定了5.36億那跟屏東縣政府提出的請求已經接近非常接近所以這部分也希望能夠給屏東縣政府就上次的災損那能夠盡速來修復尤其有一個議題的部分那部分可能還需要從長期"},{"start":11310.334,"end":11327.074,"text":"對因為我們屏東這個馬上接了這個風胎齁馬上來造成什麼樣的影響我們不知道然後等於之前的受損的部分到一直也還沒有處理所以我們也是希望我們公共工程委員會能夠加快速度齁然後寫出憲章來做早日做重建那另外針對這個"},{"start":11329.116,"end":11356.867,"text":"公共工程這個落後的部分我想本席之前也一直有提出很多的質詢那根據我們調閱的一個相關資料我們公共工程的一個進度原本在111年到112年有好轉但是今年又有大幅的一個落後那目前我們調閱的相關各縣市目前統計的數量大概有600多件而且都集中在屏東臺南高雄臺東的南部跟東部這個地方"},{"start":11357.867,"end":11368.911,"text":"那加上我們現在凱米颱風又增加了地方政府施工的一個數量我們很擔心我們的工程量能不足請問這部分主委怎麼來協助我們的地方政府"},{"start":11375.926,"end":11391.861,"text":"目前工程會的作法是針對年執行預算一億以上由工程會來列管是工程性質的採購其他就是各主辦機關他去列管或是主辦機關的上級的主管機關要去列管"},{"start":11392.962,"end":11413.09,"text":"我們除了定期的集合之外每個月都會開獨島會報會了解各部門各縣市政府對重要的公共建設進度如何都會有所掌握如果有所比較落後的縣市或部會工程會都會來提醒"},{"start":11414.904,"end":11441.06,"text":"這一點也很重要這點再麻煩因為畢竟非六都的這個整個人力也好財政狀況也好真的是這個屬六都屬天堂所以真的需要我們工程會來全力協助那另外我再請教主委就是說因為我們看到有些縣市的工程他們為了要順利發包那有時候會採取所謂一個檢向的一個發報的一個權宜措施但是也發現了在檢向完之後"},{"start":11442.591,"end":11463.292,"text":"工程的這個完成之後必須還要再追加金額而且造成這個功能的一個不完備那這部分我想我們在5月份會有跟採取商委員一起連署提案那公共工程委員會也有正式提問要求各單位各相關的政府那這部分主委有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":11464.653,"end":11481.679,"text":"一個公共設施他都有核定一定的這個設計內容跟預算那麼如果要採取檢像化包呢那必須在合約裡面續名將來是怎麼擴充擴充的方式"},{"start":11482.259,"end":11482.459,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11504.247,"end":11517.346,"text":"的一個採購方式那我們會再提醒各採購機關關於檢向發包的部分一定必須符合相關條件或者是不能說必要設施排除在外去檢向發包"},{"start":11519.407,"end":11539.954,"text":"這一點我們還是要提醒我們工程會我們應該要訂立更詳細的一個法律規範這樣不然你可能該做的不做不該做的做一大堆也不對這部分再請主委這邊幫忙那最後我想剛剛很多委員都提到碳費的部分那這部分還是要請工程委員會尤其我們是主管了很多的國內的一個公共建設的一個"},{"start":11541.294,"end":11541.454,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":11572,"end":11574.064,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請主委請陳主委委員早"},{"start":11589.031,"end":11614.001,"text":"主委早有一件嚴重的事情可能要跟主委特別說明請工程會站在工程會的立場仔細的把關什麼嚴重的事情我們國軍弟兄用的防彈背心那個防彈纖維部過去這幾年從2017年一直到現在設斃的案子幾乎是年年發生"},{"start":11615.301,"end":11642.428,"text":"越來越誇張越來越嚴重這個防彈類型不是只有軍人要用而已我們的調查局我們的小鎮屬、監獄通通都要用我把它列出來了我現在列出來的列表主委你可以很清楚的看得出來背後在胡搞瞎搞的人幾乎是同一批人幾乎是同一批人這件事情有多嚴重"},{"start":11644.538,"end":11671.476,"text":"請主委仔細看請主委仔細看我不知道這個防彈背心當初防彈纖維布價格是怎麼定的但是業界大家都知道利潤很高因為利潤很高你會發現有一些莫名其妙根本從來沒有聽過在做防彈纖維布的公司甚至是上市櫃的公司全部跑來飆"},{"start":11673.203,"end":11685.281,"text":"得標了以後再轉給其他的公司來處理那等於就是我去參與那個標案我只是要賺一手啦那下面"},{"start":11686.755,"end":11707.529,"text":"由其他轉包的公司來處理結果導致的狀況來我們就先看我們的國軍防範纖維部竟然跑去中國搞劣質的東西來搞到什麼搞到從中國進來7000多萬7000多萬就cover了結果我們國防部開的標價格是兩三億"},{"start":11714.71,"end":11729.118,"text":"力量很高嘛才有人這樣胡搞瞎搞嘛好來請教一下主委啊第一個工程會有沒有注意到這個現象第二個在這工程會的立場對於這種系統性的弊案可以怎麼處理"},{"start":11733.425,"end":11748.674,"text":"這幾個個案有涉及違法的部分有的已經有採取停權的措施不過這個問題是涉及到整個國軍或警察相關的生命的安全所以工程會願意針對剛才委員提供的這些"},{"start":11749.784,"end":11750.004,"text":"主委說"},{"start":11775.464,"end":11776.385,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11794.753,"end":11805.352,"text":"大同的大眾電腦的轉包給這個公衛公司後面有全程國際有龍泉科技這個叫李信勳的"},{"start":11806.991,"end":11836.249,"text":"投票人啊不一樣的公司名稱啊但剛剛主委說該停權違法的都停權了我的問題是有嗎大眾停權大同這個案子剛進來沒有全部停權我剛大概語意有點疏漏那已經停了大眾那大同還在辦理中2022年喔我去追國防部我那時候雖然不在立法院但是站在台灣公益的立場"},{"start":11837.947,"end":11862.93,"text":"這些垃圾事情就是要把它清乾淨我們同意委員的我出任國防部為什麼大同大眾公衛沒有停權那時候弊案整個都起來了嘛主委你知道國防部怎麼回應嗎說公共工程委員會這邊齁經過調解調解成立啊所以就沒有辦停權停權跟調解成立無關啊是嘛"},{"start":11864.102,"end":11887.949,"text":"所以那時候國防部出來講的時候公共工程委員會要站出來講啊媒體都有披露啊你國防部胡說八道啊調解是私人廠商的糾紛嘛停權是公共利益嘛該停權的是不是要停權是不是沒有錯嘛那當然公共工程委員會我也就看不懂啊"},{"start":11888.752,"end":11911.684,"text":"你們自己都有下去看阿全程攏權影響採購公正阿甚至有的法院都判刑了但我現在問題就來啦設備廠商大戶公衛有停權嗎我剛執勤以前我還去查沒有阿目前就大眾停權阿對啊阿其他公司為什麼不停權"},{"start":11912.901,"end":11936.288,"text":"其他公司要查一下是不是有列案或者是說符合停權的要件來來來我全部都幫你列了報告委員這個委員應該對停權的制度非常理解因為基本上是機關發動那我們這邊就是所以是機關待於發動嘛對不對我們去了解一下啦來看一下吼哪些機關待於發動我們國防部待於發動"},{"start":11940.526,"end":11967.364,"text":"我的法務部矯正署待於發動啊我的法務部調查局待於發動啊我現在就看不懂了啊不孝的廠商拿不符合規格的東西甚至有些是從中國搞進來的結果呢大把的銀子賺了以後至於我們的國軍弟兄我們的檢調同仁我們的矯正同仁的安危於不顧"},{"start":11969.088,"end":11996.005,"text":"結果這種不肖的廠商到現在還沒有停權一而再再而三實隨滋味今天主委或者是副主委您給的答案是說那個負責的機關沒有報上來嘛好可不可以去了解一下可不可以去了解一下負責的機關為什麼沒有報上來我們可以去了解需要多久"},{"start":11998.635,"end":12021.53,"text":"發一個函請他們一個禮拜說明阿為什麼到現在沒有報庭權放水喔好我們一個禮拜發文沒有問題一個禮拜之內發文阿請這些相關的機關一個禮拜回覆阿了解可能需要一段時間阿這些機關了解需要多少時間"},{"start":12023.004,"end":12051.64,"text":"需要多少時間第二個事情請國防部說明2022年為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌那可能他對是新聞對外講的是不是不是喔這是國防部正式發的聲明喔請國防部講清楚喔為什麼拿公共工程委員會的條解當擋箭牌幫特定的廠商放水喔可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":12053.763,"end":12074.817,"text":"今天主委講得很明確了嘛調解是私人廠商的事情嘛停權是公共利益的事嘛當初國防部發那個函是要幫誰護航幫誰遮醜利率那麼高搞這種爛事不用負責然後結果竟然是國防部出來擦脂抹粉這樣對嗎"},{"start":12077.952,"end":12090.648,"text":"主委我敢講我一定負責啦你請公共工程委員會的同仁回去查一下新聞啦當初就是國防部發的新聞啦韓巡國防部當初誰發這個新聞誰做這個決定的可以嗎"},{"start":12094.056,"end":12107.635,"text":"我們會去查這個新聞了解那必要的時候會請國防部能夠針對相關的政府採購法的規定比較能夠也請國防部能夠要了解"},{"start":12109.577,"end":12109.857,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":12137.557,"end":12151.932,"text":"接下來邀請侯孟凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請公眾會主委請陳主委"},{"start":12159.11,"end":12183.77,"text":"好委員長主委好主委全國國人也都在關心相關的國內重大公共工程那其中這個機場的部分我不知道說這個第三航廈那公共工程委員會這邊有沒有掌握相關的一個進度T3的部分每個月都有督導會報但他現在已經又距離完工日期又延宕了是不是"},{"start":12186.093,"end":12186.973,"text":"藍燈機廊廳的部分"},{"start":12214.381,"end":12231.037,"text":"主委說實在話2026年現在我們就了解是不是已經要延宕至少延宕至少一年那主要原因是什麼目前我們還沒有接到陶基公司說要延宕一年的這樣的一個報告"},{"start":12231.497,"end":12258.995,"text":"什麼時候會有這個航廈可以正式的讓國人因為其實我們要講啊現在疫情過後飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲大家都很需要啊我們也希望是說這個重大公共工程可以趕快落實因為其實航廈現在我不知道說主委有沒有最近有出國的經驗啊一航廈二航廈其實都非常的擁擠尤其是特定時段所以我們目前現在掌握的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":12262.412,"end":12278.351,"text":"計劃期程會調整到116年所以我剛才講的是所以我講的是正確的會調整到116年那他分幾個部分包括那個停機坪或者是登機廊廳還有"},{"start":12279.852,"end":12308.509,"text":"主委我說實在當然這個是交通部相關下面的業務但為什麼本集會今天特別在交通委員會裡面來請教您其實最主要就是因為當我們也去追交通部我們因為他們是相關的這個主管機關那我們公共政委委員會其實是一個上位機關他是督促我們重大工程所以如果說不是重大工程我不會這樣子來這邊救教您這個是重要的政府的公共建設是而且是大家都看的我們有列管是"},{"start":12309.309,"end":12313.904,"text":"那您上一次去關心這個案件瞭解說他到底為什麼延宕一年的這樣的一個"},{"start":12315.202,"end":12343.628,"text":"有沒有去了解他的原因就任以來至少聽過三次簡報是那相關的原因很多啦包括移工的問題啦包括缺工嘛對缺工還是缺工的問題嘛缺工就是移工跑啊跑掉跑了跑了將500人以上所以那個缺工是一個問題那其他當然是承攬商的問題所以目前是116年所以我印象中我聽過三次大概都維持這樣的進度了"},{"start":12343.928,"end":12369.782,"text":"跑了500人以上的移工啊跑了500人以上的移工啊這可能是之前大家都不知道的原來我們淘機是那 主委那我想請教有沒有信心跟把握能夠督促交通部2027年等於116年民國116年能夠落成讓國人看到第三航廈可以使用"},{"start":12371.212,"end":12387.692,"text":"陶菊公司給我們的簡報是OK啦是沒有問題就是整個交通部的簡報是沒問題那我們會全力來督促他如期完成這樣的工程甚至有一部分陸續會完成陸續啟用也有啦並不是整個主體都完成才啟用"},{"start":12388.192,"end":12411.989,"text":"是當然不是每個主題都完成來啟用但是重點在於說能不能使用還有就是安全無虞嘛停機坪就可以而且中間是中間是它這個航廈跟跑道的這個部分能夠來啟用嘛來主委我再請教一下啦齁因為今天上午有討論到這個評委的一個部分啦只是其中有一個當然這我同仁有特別提出來就是說"},{"start":12413.11,"end":12435.009,"text":"專家學者建議名單的資料庫除名作業要點那其中第二條裡面有提到說資格審查的門檻央央沙沙寫了很多不管是單位教職或者是學友所藏學友專精但最後有加入民國98年9月20號以前已納入資料庫的專家學者不適用前項規定"},{"start":12436.772,"end":12436.952,"text":"我請處長來說明"},{"start":12453.444,"end":12476.617,"text":"跟委員報告在我們專家學者資料庫是3年一個期限是所以他如果3年的時候沒有他再重新再要進入這個資料庫的時候就必須要符合這些資格所以應該沒有在這個之前已經沒有了嗎對除非他原本是符合就是以現在的標準來說因為我們3年要重新再檢視一遍每3年會重新整理相關的一個"},{"start":12477.597,"end":12479.578,"text":"本席想了解到底有多少人是適用這樣的一個資格"},{"start":12502.907,"end":12531.386,"text":"那沒關係今天我提出來這個疑問我也請這個我們相關單位是不是主委可以提供個資料給本席目前我們的這個學者名單裡面有多少人那以及這樣的一個條件是不是已經沒有使用那如果說沒有使用的話其實這一條但書也就可以拿掉了嘛學者名單是人數呢還是具體每個人每個人當然人數人數OK不需要你給我這洋洋灑灑這個人名啦我的要是人數以及就是說他符合的一個資格"},{"start":12532.307,"end":12548.512,"text":"那如果說真的現在這8月20號以前納入已經都沒有的話其實這個單數也就可以拿掉了好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員接下來邀請王美惠委員質詢主席請陳主委"},{"start":12563.966,"end":12584.387,"text":"委員長早主委在這裏你也相信我們公共工程的主委也負責交通的問題在廣東以外交通的建設都和你都有合作的結果在這裏我相信主委看我站在這知道我要來問什麼"},{"start":12586.969,"end":12591.513,"text":"但畢竟5月19日本省有自己探討過 也因為今天有這個時間主委來的時候"},{"start":12598.154,"end":12603.559,"text":"要如何將這次的鐵路高架配合?這次的鐵路高架是由李鴻一青年開始做的,總共230倍的價格,對他們的負擔款30倍的價格"},{"start":12619.073,"end":12630.477,"text":"要不然在這幾天內,尤其二月二十年,我們有在裡面的修正,定於我們的總金額是334億,給我們的負擔"},{"start":12635.879,"end":12636.9,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12655.58,"end":12663.102,"text":"主委探討的是說,長久以來,我們有這個問題,高利貸和現有的技能,中華不一樣,因為高利貸已經在做了,在做的當中,長久以來,我們現有的,現在會遲到,常常說你們中央求高利貸,"},{"start":12684.858,"end":12685.659,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":12700.014,"end":12715.402,"text":"主委,大家都心誠說,最近在紀蘭的建設,我相信你也很用心,尤其我們的大中央,未來的政策在交通的有18、40項,要漸漸去落實,要漸漸去做"},{"start":12720.965,"end":12723.769,"text":"要不然一定會回到以前那樣的配合,以前說30多個月,到現在過幾年變40多個月"},{"start":12736.001,"end":12757.498,"text":"主委,在這裏,我們沒有一個方法來解決這個地方的問題來,請主委,你回答一下董事長,董事長委員,這整個的背景是因為已經在施作當中對,我知道那這部分我請現在的行政部長"},{"start":12759.159,"end":12774.924,"text":"委員：政府來探討這八頁的內容是否分攤的比例還是說它項目是來自於是土地取得還是什麼那些都了解之後再進一步來合相我會給補充建議說安排這個時間跟政府或是委員做比較詳細的討論"},{"start":12785.762,"end":12794.166,"text":"因為主委本席跟你談到的就是說﹐我們需要讓地方辦理的﹐我們就非要早前﹐沒有買賣之後﹐還要去讓地方辦理也不好﹐最新立法做過地方的備付款﹐需要地方的財政要怎麼去處理﹐"},{"start":12810.433,"end":12811.554,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":12824.688,"end":12844.2,"text":"那這樣說幾個月都沒有改善：也在本席來接到之後：才有辦法改善：我說喔,我們做的工程：說沒有應用到出民大會：是不可能的即使人家有意見的時候：我們要趕快去處理：可以讓做工的安全：也可以讓住戶的人"},{"start":12850.043,"end":12851.244,"text":"好 謝謝完美會委員"},{"start":12879.554,"end":12881.215,"text":"接下來邀請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們陳珠緯請陳珠緯"},{"start":12905.968,"end":12933.7,"text":"委員長主委你好首先要感謝你上星期為了我們臺中的捷運南線的基本設計問題親自到現場會堪那我想捷運南線是我們臺中的重大建設不僅我們的經費龐大那工期也很長那而且這也是市府跟地方鄉親對於我們重大的交通建設希望期盼可以儘速的動工儘速的完工那我想要請教主委這個最快何時可以再開審查會議"},{"start":12936.916,"end":12950.271,"text":"這個分成兩部分一部分是修正計畫就等行政院核定另外就是那天基本設計的會刊那麼有一些需要補正的那我想補正之後"},{"start":12951.693,"end":12966.475,"text":"這個基本設計的核定應該是一個月以內可以完成的一個月以內可以完成喔所以也可以就是說在一個月內完成這個基本設計的審查OKOK那依照目前的審查時程我們可以確保年底前完成基本設計嗎"},{"start":12969.744,"end":12988.851,"text":"因為他基本設計已經有了所以工程會是審查所以整個核定之後基本設計就可以了嘛他就進行細部設計然後相關工程採購發包等等就是功能所以之所以要懇請我們工程會加速完成審查就是希望我們要配合預算的編列的程序"},{"start":12989.651,"end":13012.316,"text":"我們希望說雖然目前前瞻四五期已經有了部分的經費但是我們的這個總工程經費高達1600多億那工期長達10年那2034年我們希望2034年可以完工嘛對不對所以我們都知道越早動工可以越能節省我們的經費那越完動工我們經費的變動性就越高那目前預計在115年可以確定可以動工嗎"},{"start":13017.458,"end":13041.636,"text":"要看主辦單位他的細部設計的時間那我們會向交通部或者是鐵道局來了解他的細設需要多少時間好那但是如果說我們希望在115年可以動工的話那是不是意味著明年的交通部這邊也要開始這個編列預算預算可能要請教交通部"},{"start":13045.178,"end":13062.111,"text":"因此越早完成我們的基本設計的審議就是希望可以越早來配合我們所謂希望儘早來施工儘早能夠完成這樣對台中市來講比較重要的捷運計畫沒錯 因為還要配合很多都市計畫變更等等的那也都是相當長的程序"},{"start":13063.132,"end":13083.19,"text":"所以我要拜託的是所主委就是除了剛剛你有承諾的進速在年底這些該過的流程都過了之外也請你關心後續整個工程發報的過程包含這個包含什麼土建工程、基建工程如果發報過程中有任何的困難要拜託主委多多的協助所以我願意跟台中市政府來配合"},{"start":13084.091,"end":13102.706,"text":"所以主委也要拜託您協調您可不可以保證說協調相關的部門確保明年的預算編列能夠充分考慮到捷運藍線的需求這個可以我們會跟交通部及其他的部會來討論是那因為我想喔常常是溝通上的問題想要考慮到我們藍線捷運的複雜性還有我們的這個重要性"},{"start":13106.088,"end":13132.239,"text":"有沒有可能建立一個更有效的溝通機制比如說您是否可以考慮成立一個比較像專門的工作小組來定期的召開這樣的會議來協助過程中可能出現的問題我們中大公建計畫都會列管而且固定會開督導會報那必要的時候我會請同仁在部會跟市府的負責的窗口那會有一個平台同時隨時來討論或隨時來協調問題"},{"start":13136.16,"end":13161.374,"text":"對,我想這個過程中一來一回已經就是拖了非常的久,回去要修正回去要修正等等的那主委你今天的報告也有提到最近這幾年工程流標的改進方式那我想這部分也很肯定,但是實務上常常會遇到國際原物料的物價突然大幅變動所以導致工程經費不足或是甚至廠商不願意投標那請教主委你有沒有是不是考慮說寬列物調費跟預備費"},{"start":13164.649,"end":13187.257,"text":"這個我們會請機關必要的時候修改相關的招標的契約就物條的部分何時來編列我想這樣對於整個招標程序會比較順利好那我問到這邊最後我還是想要問一下我們都知道捷運建設不僅有這個工程技術等等的問題還有環境土地等複雜的問題"},{"start":13188.417,"end":13201.153,"text":"那請問工程會是不是還有更多的專業支持特別是在這些跨領域問題上具體來說就是工程會還可以做哪些方面的額外提供臺中市政府的支持和這個建設進度的支持"},{"start":13203.767,"end":13227.626,"text":"就是我們會隨時注意他的施工進度跟品質那如果說跟承攬商之間有一些合約不清楚的工程會還有一個諮詢委員會可以隨時接受雙方的諮詢確認這個合約雙方的這個起義讓這個施工比較順利而不一定要直接進入申訴或調解或仲裁"},{"start":13228.166,"end":13238.391,"text":"有一個特別有一個諮詢委員會就能夠快速來解決雙方面的問題好總而言之謝謝拜託你在這個我們藍線捷運上繼續的幫我們盯緊進度好謝謝好謝謝那接下來邀請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席本席想邀請主委請陳主委"},{"start":13262.933,"end":13277.619,"text":"主委我們首先來討論碳排的問題公共工程委員會公共工程所佔的是全國一層的碳排那你的碳排你的KPI是什麼請教"},{"start":13278.881,"end":13298.694,"text":"這個碳排是應該是來自於它所用的原物料啦這些原物料本身在生產過程當中都有計算碳排的嘛所以我們工程會做的就是說會希望把這些原物料它的單位碳排放係數啊能夠把它做一個資料庫"},{"start":13299.875,"end":13323.657,"text":"那這些資料庫就讓這個發包就採購的機關在設計的時候他能夠針對他的工程項目那麼去計算這樣的一個總碳排放量或者選擇什麼樣的方式比方說用一些再生利料或者用一些碳排比較少的原物料來降低這個工程師做的碳排"},{"start":13323.817,"end":13324.258,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13340.559,"end":13365.297,"text":"經常會回答一句話我們遵循環境部2050年淨零碳排的目標就這麼說所以民眾會質疑所以本席認為如果真的只是這樣的回答是表示太消極三個字送你所以本席要你一個資料你有沒有具體的KPI跟質疑你覺得工程這個碳排會下降嗎會下降嗎"},{"start":13368.533,"end":13372.617,"text":"你是希望如此但是你必須要設置相關的措施相關的措施你才能夠去掌控"},{"start":13390.373,"end":13392.635,"text":"本席希望具體的KPI跟指引跟相關措施請你詳時順便介紹給本席因為這是全球都關注的議題接下來本席要請教"},{"start":13405.984,"end":13432.132,"text":"人家要請教我們臺中捷運藍線我也謝謝上個禮拜你們有再帶隊去現場產刊這個是我們臺中非常重要而且藍色捷運是期待十多年了好久了我們大家全力以赴臺中市政府團隊更是全力以赴所以本期要在這邊請教你去這個這個現刊呢我們的中捷藍線總經費大概是1615億"},{"start":13435.273,"end":13459.274,"text":"那其中這個由工程會去審查的就有1441億那麼我們非常的希望現在已經這個10月我們非常的希望能夠儘速的9月底了能夠儘速的來審查通過如期在2034年來完工通則所以主委審查的進度呢請教主委我們就遵照委員的交代"},{"start":13460.195,"end":13466.738,"text":"這個基本設計的核定希望10月底前來核定10月底以前務必要核定好不好所以剩下30天的時間拜託拜託拜託因為我們的市民已經等了十幾年我們非常非常的期待我想在台中市府的團隊我們是全力以赴所以我要拜託在這個時前時程請掌控好不好那我們一個結論也就是10月底以前將我們的藍色捷運的審查"},{"start":13489.206,"end":13490.127,"text":"基本設計工程會審查那1441億的這個部分我們預估"},{"start":13499.619,"end":13523.121,"text":"確認希望努力在10月底已經完成審查通過好不好那要拜託你掌控這個進度要謝謝你我們也會全力因為我們務必依照如期如值的2034年要完工通車我們大家一起加油最後一個議題本席要請教工程的流標問題"},{"start":13524.881,"end":13548.467,"text":"主委 這個最內行的 這個工程流標那大概五千萬以上 我們做了你的統計五千萬以上的工程採購流標率是七成左右那這個為什麼會如此那大家都只有說我缺人工我覺得這個不是一個理由不是一個非常主要的一個理由所以我們看到因為"},{"start":13550.165,"end":13577.467,"text":"大家都希望趕快完成但是你光光五千萬以上你就有七成的流標到底他的問題出在哪裡包括了你的廢標這些的情況本席認為工程會必須要做一個整體性方案的一個檢討你光光流標一次我們要浪費多少時間浪費多少人力那為什麼不從頭源頭把它做好請說明"},{"start":13579.282,"end":13581.572,"text":"這個的確是因為物價一直在上漲"},{"start":13582.898,"end":13601.091,"text":"那而且這個整個人力也都相對不足所以這個我們會跟流標的機關來跟他們討論是否需要修改相關的招標條件不是是否是務必需要因為您看到我們從這個109年到111年從68.85一直上升到78.07所以你明明白白你的占比一直在增加"},{"start":13612.739,"end":13634.633,"text":"你光光上半年112年去年上半年你查核的流票的金額案件就491件你的占比也是71點多所以我記得我們有一次在教育部的部分因為他重新做一個整體性的規劃他就降低那個流票率"},{"start":13635.72,"end":13664.022,"text":"所以各位你是不是應該要跟各部會去統籌我們會跟這個主辦機關那麼來你協助好不好這是你的專業你各部會你應該跟他們討論你為什麼會流標到七成你要浪費多少人力浪費多少的這個時間那你們應該要站在專業的領域跟他們去溝通要怎麼樣可以去修改"},{"start":13665.083,"end":13672.276,"text":"讓這個事件不要再流標七成五千萬以上就要流標七成你看我們浪費多少人力浪費多少時間"},{"start":13675.087,"end":13698.005,"text":"這裏面包括第一次未足三加的不過的確是因為相對的條件都在改變所以我們會跟各這些採購五千萬以上的機關在做討論優發優破你如果都不去改變你也明明知道目前的困境是什麼你又不去改變那當然不只七成還會越來越高"},{"start":13699.198,"end":13728.482,"text":"是不是主委本席具體建議你是不是主一個專案主一個專案依照目前的樣態我們在整個過程當中可以怎麼樣去協調一個能夠精進的方法我們針對個案都有持續在進行中就是針對個案流標多次的都會主動介入那當然你的成果還是一樣啊還是我告訴你的是七成以上啊"},{"start":13729.417,"end":13743.834,"text":"主委另外一個思維好不好另外一個思維目前的面向困境是什麼你以你的專業組一個專案去協助所有的各部會我們到底要怎麼樣去調整好嗎好"},{"start":13746.881,"end":13747.181,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13777.648,"end":13778.909,"text":"主席請主委陳主委"},{"start":13804.364,"end":13832.282,"text":"委員好主委好我們老同學又見面了這個我們港鐵還是要拜託一下主委雖然520到現在不是很長的時間但是也不短已經4個月了可能我們還是要趕快就位發條要上進救災如救火這個救人第一現在"},{"start":13833.697,"end":13845.848,"text":"整個花蓮0403的地震到現在這個陳建仁主委陳建仁院長跟吳哲琛當時的主委第一時間就宣布要全力來救災"},{"start":13847.222,"end":13870.425,"text":"還要比照這COVID-19期間對於人才的培訓等等都宣布了所以當時也馬上去匡列一些相關的運算雖然大部分都在公部門的資本門比較多大概佔了大概三分之四左右但是接下來執行的部分要拜託主委"},{"start":13871.573,"end":13878.34,"text":"你真的要全力投入啊因為地震到現在已經有一段相當相當的時間將近6個月了"},{"start":13882.904,"end":13909.689,"text":"所以現在關於這個黃丹跟紅丹戶的耐震補強八成五的這個補助耐震補強到現在為止八月六號地方政府就已經詢問這個工程會到底因為這一次的地震這一千一千九百多戶裡面大部分都是大樓都是十五六成的大樓"},{"start":13911.141,"end":13936.748,"text":"那現在到底我們這個救助的金額補助金額這個8成5要給他耐震補強到底這些管委會是不是用採購法依照過去依照過去吳哲成主委的立場是直接就宣布這天然災害就直接使用採購法105條就趕快使用要盡快搶災救災盡快完成"},{"start":13939.699,"end":13956.454,"text":"現在8月6號 地方政府已經詢問公共工程委員會 到現在 哇 不得了 兩個月啦 工程會還沒有回文啊主委啊 本期有打電話給你嘛 我們現在工程會到底怎麼回事 我們這個輪子是鬆掉了嗎"},{"start":13958.771,"end":13972.17,"text":"報告委員我去查了就是全差重建到底是都更或違老或者是說不參加都更違老這部分內政部有簽一個案在奉核"},{"start":13973.516,"end":13973.776,"text":"黃丹 內政補強"},{"start":13994.65,"end":13997.152,"text":"當天有去一個復活式住宅有提出一個方法是可以"},{"start":14025.202,"end":14046.016,"text":"由社區管委會來發報,不是用政府採購法。我記得那天那個個案是這個樣子的。不過詳細情形我想我請...沒有關係沒有關係,因為主委時間很短。我不曉得本委會才4分鐘5分鐘。這樣子啦,主委我想已經來兩個月的文了。"},{"start":14047.287,"end":14047.487,"text":"對於這個勞動部啊"},{"start":14069.953,"end":14094.565,"text":"因為我們現在住房大概只剩下百分之這個暑假剩下百分之五這個系統性的風暴會發生到底銀行的這些這些觀光業者到底銀行貸款要不要繳到底員工還要不要續聘這都很嚴重的問題那當時陳建仁院長跟吳哲成主委都宣布這個比照COVID-19期間讓員工能夠能夠從典進修"},{"start":14098.237,"end":14123.94,"text":"但是呢 當時是基本工資的救助現在呢 就又打折這個不能請工程會追一下好不好 勞動部不能違反整個院裡的基本原則好不好 讓這些員工能夠藉由充電的方式至少繼續在崗位上在整個國家還沒有讓花蓮有回復安全回家路之前"},{"start":14125.833,"end":14151.369,"text":"本席講了這麼多次到時候行政院要承擔這整個責任本席再讓你看一下今天早上發生的事情再看一下這今天早上惠德隧道的北口"},{"start":14157.875,"end":14160.758,"text":"我要跟主委商量一下這是今年第9次華聯的孤島,第9次"},{"start":14181.789,"end":14210.738,"text":"花蓮縣政府的副縣長今天禮拜一上班日早上搭台鐵8點鐘接近要到花蓮結果鐵路又停下來請所有的人要掉頭再搭車回台北然後坐高鐵到高雄然後再搭台鐵到花蓮大概今天到花蓮已經晚上了這是今天早上會發生的事情"},{"start":14212.418,"end":14225.896,"text":"但行政院到底有沒有去把整個鐵公路要怎麼樣能夠安全現在國內旅行社已經沒有排花林的國旅了因為到了花林不曉得能不能回得來我們真的不是一索皮牙"},{"start":14231.018,"end":14251.668,"text":"我跟委員報告,我也是大嫂,所以這個是感同身受那目前我的想法是說,盡快讓梳化案這三段趕快完成那趕快完成之後就取代這個梳化T就原台九線,梳化改,就變成梳化公路"},{"start":14252.008,"end":14252.609,"text":"臺九丁蘇花古道"},{"start":14275.669,"end":14304.506,"text":"河仁到崇德要評估改道就是要用隧道來取代現在河仁到崇德段的鐵道主委這段給你說明一下在7月多李孟元部長跟總統院長都已經來過華臨討論過相關的事情你要改道要打隧道那又是若干若干若干很多年以後的事情這段時間所有的產業都活不下去"},{"start":14305.902,"end":14307.823,"text":"提出報告就是高價化的部分"},{"start":14333.251,"end":14359.552,"text":"何人跟崇德高價化的部分現在都已經在做研究報告年底會出來所以拜託主委我們同班同學拜託跟上進度一下啦好不好不然地方人很難生活一個公文發給工程會兩個月沒有回文他不曉得怎麼做我們來改進好不好拜託主委好不好謝謝謝謝傅坤熙委員"},{"start":14364.161,"end":14366.082,"text":"接下來邀請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請陳金德陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":14384.721,"end":14389.668,"text":"好 各位好我先延續一下剛才我們傅昆祺總召他的質詢因為確實 因為現在颱風來襲本來我有那個親戚"},{"start":14395.595,"end":14417.455,"text":"本來定了要去花蓮因為要支持花蓮的觀光可是颱風一來最後還是必須忍痛的割愛所以也確實我覺得在我們花東地區的現在的交通的狀況已經變成迫在眉睫的事情所以也請主委因為我看你在這個我們國土法裡面"},{"start":14418.175,"end":14441.564,"text":"你也有很多的這個建議更對其他的部會所以也一樣請你發揮你這個協調或者是你體察民意的這樣的一個精神能夠趕快的來反應那另外呢我要跟主委請教的是在在上個會期我曾經針對我們警政署他的"},{"start":14446.946,"end":14465.456,"text":"警用的防彈衣的採購採購下來大概有四分之一不堪使用必須要退回給廠商請他重新的再補正結果這個警用的背心廠商事實上從102年開始他陸陸續續因為他的採購劣跡斑斑"},{"start":14474.881,"end":14500.863,"text":"被列為黑名單的次數達7次之多但是他照樣他一旦解除黑名單之後他照樣可以去投標所以這個廠商包括他的兒子也成立一家廠商一直都常常的來標我們的僅用防彈背心然後每次都被踢爆之後然後他再來做補正"},{"start":14502.519,"end":14518.986,"text":"這樣的事情對於我們第一線的警察基層警察同仁情何以堪啊這個房貸背心是保命用的結果這樣的黑心廠商卻可以一而再再而三的去得標不但他去得標他兒子開的公司也去得標所以在這裡啊我要請我們公共工程委員會針對我們政府採購法必須去防堵這樣的弊端"},{"start":14531.551,"end":14548.721,"text":"各位你知道嗎?我們去調查了,因為呢,我們到現在為止,你雖然有拒絕往來名單,可是即便他出包,他過一段時間後,也許他過一年,過兩年,甚至他找他的親戚再成立一家公司,他照樣可以得標。"},{"start":14549.742,"end":14559.568,"text":"我們現在有一些廠商被列為拒絕往來戶最高都超過60件有66件的64件的57件的他怕嗎他不怕因為等到他回來解除了他的這個黑名單限制之後他又是好漢一個繼續來投標"},{"start":14571.676,"end":14586.812,"text":"那所以我在這邊其實我已經提出修法我認為我們政府採購法裡面應該要有所謂的刪證條款也就是當你一而再再而三的被作為拒絕往來戶的時候你應該有一個懲罰性的條這個規定永久列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":14595.075,"end":14603.202,"text":"這些廠商才會乖啊才會害怕啊你看連僅用的防彈背心他都可以這樣惡搞我告訴你啊我們去提出這樣的相關的問題的時候警察署竟然告訴我沒關係啦我們發現啦這麼多一千四百多片喔這些防彈背心這個凹陷板我們呢要求廠商完成回收"},{"start":14621.357,"end":14639.527,"text":"回收就好然後告訴你因為我們按照法裡面也沒有說永久性不准他再來標所以他還可以再來標所以主委可不可以請我們公共工程委員會認真的去思考檢討這個黑名單"},{"start":14641.243,"end":14665.24,"text":"可不可以不然的話這些黑名單一年三年之後他又來標了我可以告訴你喔如果你不改的話我就給你追蹤這些喔這種影響我們警察基層第一線生命的你再讓他標試試看所以主委可不可以我們工程委員會正本清源之道從政府採購法裡面去修法"},{"start":14666.726,"end":14689.871,"text":"就在現有的法令裡面我們會就針對這個防彈被侵這些案除了停權者之外已經有違法判刑的這些個人或他相關的公司我們會專案去清查提醒各主辦機關你這樣個案那這是被我抓出來沒被我抓出來的這些共同的名稱"},{"start":14691.031,"end":14692.353,"text":"我現在就是請你們能夠檢討修法"},{"start":14706.57,"end":14722.8,"text":"好這個修法我們來研究好不好來檢討你可以做一個門檻嗎那種惡性重大的不要再讓他有這種僥倖的機會還有其他也似乎也應該要有一些修正的必要我們一併來討論絕對不是只有警用背心還有好多其他的"},{"start":14723.12,"end":14724.32,"text":"接下來邀請陳俊宜委員質詢"},{"start":14758.407,"end":14762.678,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請我們陳主委請陳主委主委午安"},{"start":14768.63,"end":14793.403,"text":"謝謝主委主委上任到今天可以說馬不停蹄對於我們全國相關的這些建設重要的這些工程都持續的在做追蹤跟彙整那當然我們對於宜蘭縣大家所關心的這個鐵路高架的部分也在這個近期內由我們主委跟相關部會經過協商之後對於"},{"start":14795.404,"end":14819.299,"text":"這個配合款合理的編列我相信我們已經有一個這個明確的一個方向那我在此我想要請教主委就是針對這個鐵路高架的部分宜蘭的這個15.85公里的部分我們可不可以請主委要求相關部位一定要在兩年內這個如期的來動工"},{"start":14821.419,"end":14841.713,"text":"謝謝委員這個鐵路高架的部分因為現在環評通過了通過不久所以他現在交通部更準備把這個綜合規劃計畫還有一些財務的規劃要報院來審查所以如果說這個跟宜蘭縣政府要取得一致的"},{"start":14843.334,"end":14844.395,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14865.942,"end":14876.39,"text":"一覽縣政府必須配合是一覽縣政府必須配合相關的準備工程包括用地取得用地取得或者是相關的一些都市規劃等等"},{"start":14877.721,"end":14880.843,"text":"以來來看我們有目前23個平交道尚未這個拆除那這一段這個鐵路高架完成之後會減少9個平交道"},{"start":14898.634,"end":14912.709,"text":"這個可以讓民眾出入更安全而且行車更安全更方便也不用再浪費時間在那邊等待火車的時間所以我們還是很期待"},{"start":14913.951,"end":14933.13,"text":"現政府在此我也呼籲現政府應該是要來重視這個問題切勿這個出爾反爾因為從過去到現在現政府講的這個說辭有一點反覆那這個會影響到的是人民直接的權益所以我也希望說在"},{"start":14933.59,"end":14960.764,"text":"我們中央願意支持配合之下那個宜蘭縣政府應該也要有積極的作為這個我要拜託主委說我們後續的這個督工方面要拜託我們公共工程委員會及相關部會對於這個工程的這個推動能夠我們這個來掌握我們也會跟宜蘭縣政府在經理部溝通是好謝謝主委那另外就是針對這個義淹水地區那也特別感謝政委這個協調跟溝通"},{"start":14963.585,"end":14987.87,"text":"對於這個宜蘭縣我們大家所關心的這個五結防潮閘門還有這個圓山七賢的這個西周排水湊水站的相關工程那我們可以預先來匡列預算讓這個附近的住戶跟民眾可以更加放心我們看到今天颱風又要進來那我相信這附近的民眾真的說了一個屁屁話"},{"start":14988.69,"end":15011.816,"text":"那未來我相信這些工程如果能夠如期來推動的話對於住戶的這個居住安全一定有這個適當的這個提升那我也在此也是拜託這個政委就針對這個部分後續的相關工程也是要請我們相關部委一定要對於這個期程的安排一定要落實然後如期來動工如期來完工"},{"start":15012.236,"end":15021.619,"text":"好這個可以好那另外還有一個工程就是我們這個東山的這個移東橋改建那移東橋因為在這個1980年的6月竣工到現在已經歷經40年40多年了那這個橋樑的部分他這個橋體老舊歸列而且他的這個"},{"start":15032.142,"end":15032.602,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":15052.638,"end":15052.818,"text":"好,謝謝陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":15083.117,"end":15085.1,"text":"李博義委員李副主委"},{"start":15105.184,"end":15133.043,"text":"副主委你好先感謝你我上個禮拜我在上個禮拜二在院會的時候特別跟院長表達感謝就是院長很快的請這個我們工程會主委陳金德主委救高雄的新台17線突然陳其邁市長打來跟我說遇到一個很大的困難恐怕沒有辦法在2026年如期通車"},{"start":15134.324,"end":15158.851,"text":"我們快呃陳主委我馬上找陳主委齁那李副主委就快速的在9月5號跟9月18號的時候分別開了會議以及做了一個現場現刊把過去曾經如果我當時還在高雄市政府碰到國防部突然把原本講好的14億突然增加到28億"},{"start":15160.851,"end":15170.963,"text":"光是這一個14億增加到28億光是要協調國防部這件事情這個金額在當時民進黨執政的陳菊對當時馬政府的國防部"},{"start":15174.987,"end":15193.906,"text":"這件事情我看最少要慢個兩年14年最少要慢到16年要等政黨輪替那我們工程會在快速的這兩三個禮拜內快速的把國防部的這個相關的經費協調好我想請那個李德副主委簡單說明一下協調好之後還有什麼要注意的事情"},{"start":15198.79,"end":15223.707,"text":"大概以新台17縣目前狀況大概是第一個就是有關經費增加部分因為之前是在吳前主委時期已經有大概會針對那個國防部就高雄來講就突然增加14億又說要新建一個這個新的戰備當然就是經過這種討論跟會刊之後其實大家把這些誤會把它釐清因為確實高雄市政府那時候估的經費是市政府來估那因為那是在軍事管制地區所以他只能從空拍去看"},{"start":15224.467,"end":15244.7,"text":"那實際上等到國防部同意市政府團隊進去之後才發現其實需要受到衝擊的待拆待建的建物變滿多的那還有一些是針對那個整個軍區的這個防衛任務跟目標那個不能妥協那所以因為這樣詳細估算之後確實是我們也大概現場去核實過大概會增加到從14億多變28億多"},{"start":15247.102,"end":15263.289,"text":"那所以這是第一個困難點那第二個就是說在那個騎乘上面就是這個會涉及到經費我幫你做一個結尾就是直接抽換工建計畫讓今年度的不用再重送工建計畫這讓2026年的通車是有可能"},{"start":15264.249,"end":15265.83,"text":"那我還需要請主委只剩1分鐘我快速"},{"start":15289.244,"end":15308.699,"text":"也是一樣齁主委謝謝感謝你從上個禮拜二質詢完院長那表示在之前交通部李前部長有來跟我說明過可能有高雄方案的時候我在上個禮拜二公布這件事情之後現在整個輿論網路一片嘩然"},{"start":15309.622,"end":15325.476,"text":"大家對如果真的有高雄方案高鐵進高雄車站再次開挖民挖淺頓對高雄地區市區即將造成重大的影響一片嘩然大家覺得"},{"start":15327.145,"end":15346.413,"text":"深思啊大家覺得聽聽民眾的意見啊所以在地方上開始有很多人給我相關的意見認為當然除了這個責任的釐清以外也要把可能會對高雄再一次的黑暗交通黑暗期來說明清楚主委這個這個意見也讓你好"},{"start":15346.997,"end":15347.177,"text":"謝謝李博義委員"},{"start":15376.038,"end":15377.679,"text":"主席有請陳金德主委陳金德主委"},{"start":15397.065,"end":15422.346,"text":"委員好主委好給花蓮人一條安全回家的路給台灣人一條安全旅行的路剛剛前面有看到福昆齊委員跟王洪委員都有在關心花蓮現在的不管是交通乃至於觀光的狀況那我也聽到主委的很多的回答我先跟主委說其實"},{"start":15423.507,"end":15451.994,"text":"我看到花蓮現在的情形我自己是心裡是蠻沉重的因為我也是花蓮出生的小孩那尤其安全回家的路跟所謂的安全旅行的路是同樣的嘛 對不對所以他現在觀光的困境跟所謂的現在花蓮的這個道路經過前面的地震還有一些天災所造成的一些破壞那都有很直接的關係嘛 對不對 主委"},{"start":15453.513,"end":15481.846,"text":"沒有錯因為地質的關係所以最近幾年內我想尤其是那一段是很難有穩定的地質就從德到何人這一段所以我真的還是希望我們政府能夠因為花蓮也是我們的就是一部分對不對所以希望政府在這一部分要多加一點努力因為我父親其實我聽到給花蓮人一條安全回家路那從小就聽到大的為什麼因為我父親就是修路的工人"},{"start":15482.586,"end":15504.215,"text":"所以每次入了攤房他以前在花蓮的時候他就要出去負責修道路甚至還有看到他同僚就因此這個在工程當中往生的都有所以這個奮鬥他不是今天一天兩天他是一直持續下去希望我們的政府能夠對花蓮的人民能夠多柔軟一點那我想請教你下一個問題就是說"},{"start":15505.976,"end":15521.565,"text":"我想請教我們主委你知道臺灣一年溫室氣體淨排放量大概是多少嗎這部分我沒有數據兩億七千多萬二氧化碳當量那公共工程排碳量大概佔多少"},{"start":15522.298,"end":15523.298,"text":"公共工程公共工程公共工程公共工程"},{"start":15543.627,"end":15567.392,"text":"公共工程總排總碳排放量的17.2%所以政府主導的公共工程其實在臺灣也算是排碳的大戶嘛對不對這裡面主要是原料就是水泥啊鋼筋啊黑泥土等等那我想請教主委我想請教你就是在我們2030年的減碳目標是減量多少是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":15572.881,"end":15578.345,"text":"主委這個數字還是要掌握一下我直接跟您說國發會在2022年提出2030年國家制定貢獻減排目標是2005年基期的24%正負1這個您知道嗎"},{"start":15590.104,"end":15613.055,"text":"這個是國發會定定的戰略這個戰略不是只是國發會的戰略是政府總體戰略工程會我覺得可能也要努力一下我想請教一下工程會今年5月有發函給15個中央單位要求各單位提供公共工程減碳目標辦理情形目前有哪幾個單位還沒有明確定定減碳目標"},{"start":15617.598,"end":15644.487,"text":"我這邊掌握到訊息是這樣我覺得主委這邊可能要再多掌握一下有8個部會還沒有明確的訂定包括教育部、文化部、法務部、衛福部、客委會、海委會、原委會、退府會那麼想請教一下就是說我們如果說這個部分請主委再繼續努力幫大家再追蹤一下我們就是要訂定排碳指引所以希望明年能夠完成"},{"start":15645.409,"end":15668.199,"text":"對希望就是催促我們政府趕快把目標定出來那內政部跟這個交通部也都還沒有完成設定的目標嘛但是內政部跟交通部都是我們算是公共工程的大戶吧對不對所以工程會這邊希望能夠好好追蹤進度啦除了初步目標以外的話我建議就是工程會也要訂定跟國發會2030年的目標一樣減碳量要達到24%正負1"},{"start":15674.321,"end":15677.21,"text":"做得到嗎?主委就公共工程的部分"},{"start":15678.737,"end":15706.152,"text":"那我們全力來降低公共工程的進步主委我跟你講我剛剛問國科會就是我們的AI之島我們的排行一直掉我們的國科會的主委就很大方告訴我說他說他4年內賴總統卸任之前拼到10名內我今天想要聽到的是你在2030保證正負24%正負1可不可以國發會訂定的目標工程會一定要遵循就是公共工程的部分能夠"},{"start":15707.694,"end":15710.777,"text":"總而言之要有目標好不好好OK謝謝您好謝謝羅志強委員"},{"start":15729.646,"end":15734.03,"text":"邀請邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在現場"},{"start":15748.524,"end":15753.489,"text":"陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現場陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員陳亭飛委員不在現場鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現場鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在現場"},{"start":15772.205,"end":15776.969,"text":"賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員 賴氏寶委員不在現場高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 高金樹梅委員 不在現場"},{"start":15785.407,"end":15808.655,"text":"好那登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員中嘉賓所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請行政院公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":15822.861,"end":15822.961,"text":"請勿模仿"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:39:29 - 13:04:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}