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要跟你要求開放，你如何保障我們的農業？怎麼使用這180億？絕對是不夠的。我舉紐西蘭的鮮乳為例，我為了臺灣的鮮乳跟你們戰了很久，你們說會保護臺灣的，接下來我看你們把臺灣那些乳牛一隻一隻宰掉才沒有壓力，這是面對的局勢。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有啦，委員你這樣說，我可能要澄清一下，我們農業部絕對不會說……"],["陳委員超明：我知道你不會啦！我告訴你，你要面對也是有困難，我知道你們在閃避，你不要自我辯護，其實我們早晚會面臨這樣的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們要有充分的準備。"],["陳委員超明：我相信你的能力，但是你早晚要有這種承擔，壞的時間快要來了，請回座。","再來，我談到強化國土防衛能量、提升資通作業環境及設備，哇！這大條了，這是哪兩個部會？是國防部跟海洋委員會？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員好，我是國防部副部長。"],["陳委員超明：副部長也很大，我請教一個問題，印度跟巴基斯坦在打仗，你的感覺怎麼樣？我們臺灣資訊時代，怎麼這樣一打下來的話，印度在南亞的大國裡面，很看不起巴基斯坦，突然被巴基斯坦這樣打下來的話，你覺得這個變化如何？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員，我覺得是這樣，我告訴你，印巴這個衝突是視距外的飛彈，那兩國都是在本土就是他們自己國家領土上作戰，可是我們今天看到的這個大外宣好像巴基斯坦占了很好的優勢，印度為什麼都不講話？其實在作戰的過程當中有一個隱秘性，就是你暴露的行蹤越多，比如現在巴基斯坦說我的空軍有多厲害，我用了什麼方式去把印度的飛機給擊落了，可是印度就啞巴吃黃蓮、就不講話嗎？某些方面來講，你講的越多，人家越看出你的破綻，為什麼？因為你把你所有作戰的序列全曝光了，這在軍事的隱秘行動來講……"],["陳委員超明：你是講巴基斯坦曝光，還是印度曝光？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：巴基斯坦曝光，他一直講一直講，講到最後，我要跟委員報告，最後慘的是他們的空軍還有國防部，為什麼？因為你講到最後，人家都把你看破手腳了。"],["陳委員超明：所以我們國防部常常不講話，就是我們有秘密武器……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：所以我要跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：我現在聽出來，我就是要問這個問題，我了解你的用意在哪裡了。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，視距外的飛彈是有很多的戰術戰法，它有很多的配合，我要跟委員講……"],["陳委員超明：但是外媒的分析說，一個系統跟多國的系統沒有連接在一起，我現在是要問這個問題。你們的經費1,500億在4,100億元裡面占很多，這個要是放到國防特別預算裡面，國防部拿那麼多錢花，也沒有監督到你們，我要老實講，我一直在看這個戰爭會怎樣的發展，我們臺灣的軍力在哪裡？所以我們不講話表示我們實力很強，我們在暗中蘊藏，你的意思就是這樣？你拿著報告說這個叫做基礎建設，你還要拿1,500億用在基礎建設上就來不及了，到時候就糟糕了，我不知道你的實力在哪裡，我們也不敢問。如果現在情況很不好，我們稍微一問，你們說我們傾中，我們就像共諜一樣、是同路人，其實我們很怕。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：改天再請教，我大概知道。","繼續請教海巡署，我當時在內政委員會，管委員那個時候也是，那時候船隻已經花了將近1,000億元了，現在你們還要再買是嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，船隻還是不夠喔。"],["陳委員超明：還不夠？看他們是大型的驅逐艦，我們的船艦都是小型的，你仍然認為不夠嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不夠，我們現在最大型的才4,000噸。"],["陳委員超明：我知道、我知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是中國隨便就是3,000噸，甚至有幾萬噸的艦艇出來，我們最大型的才4,000噸級而已，而且現在才4艘而已，他們幾千噸以上的有好幾百艘。"],["陳委員超明：我知道你們只有4艘，我知道、我知道……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，後階段的造船才開始，我的東西國防預算沒辦法給我承認，我3月26日開了一個會……"],["陳委員超明：現在你要做的最大的是幾噸？"],["管主任委員碧玲：國防預算定義的會議在3月26日開，委員，講到這個東西，其實我是受害者，因為本來我在2月開始爭取，3月26日就開國防預算的定義，現在變成說我是插進來的，我不是插進來的，我不是搭便車進來，我才是主人喔，我在2月就開始要用這筆錢了啊！"],["陳委員超明：現在你是主人，你接受國防部來幫你護航……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有啊！國防部預算沒有包括海巡部分，海巡很委屈，我替國家做國防，但國防預算沒有把我們算在內。"],["陳委員超明：好、好，我知道，你也是業務單位。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不知道錢在哪裡。委員，你如果沒有把這一筆錢給我，我要問委員哪一筆錢要給我們？"],["陳委員超明：不、不，我不敢說不給你們，等一下又說我是中共的同路人，我就「衰」死了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：你就是沒有給我，國民黨現在就不要給我錢啊！"],["陳委員超明：你現在想要做多大？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我只有300億而已。"],["陳委員超明：在1,500億只占300億？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我占300億喔。"],["陳委員超明：300億，剩下1,200億是給國防部？"],["管主任委員碧玲：但你們不給我！"],["陳委員超明：是國防部，你要好好表現。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們本來要開始討論國防預算，4月份才出現關稅的議題，我在3月的時候開了一個會，在2月發新聞稿、3月再開一個會，我們才是最早進來的預算，現在被當作我們是硬擠進來。"],["陳委員超明：我記得你們去年花了1,500億造船，但有多少艘船做出來？你告訴我，你300億要買什麼船？有多大艘？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我現在……"],["陳委員超明：你要做1萬噸級的喔，否則不足以震撼人心，我告訴你喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要給我錢做1萬噸級的，我會給你磕頭！"],["陳委員超明：1艘300億夠了吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要讓我們做1萬噸級的，我給你磕頭！真的很感謝你。"],["陳委員超明：要注意一下發展啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是，委員，這一筆錢不能不給我們。"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，我沒說要砍你的預算，你現在這樣說，電視台……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你已經把我砍掉了啦！委員，國民黨的版本已經把我……"],["陳委員超明：邱委員在這裡，你不能把這段當視頻喔！大家講清楚，我現在跟你對答，你們要去解釋一下，好像我在砍你預算，我是請教你預算如何用……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你把我的預算拿掉了啊！國民黨版本把預算拿掉了……"],["陳委員超明：沒有，我是請教你如何使用，你不要說我砍你預算……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啊，你砍了我三百多億，委員，你有砍我的預算，所以你要給我們……"],["陳委員超明：我很支持國防，我很支持國家海洋委員會，不要說我砍你預算，我還沒砍，你就說得好像我砍了，我很害怕欸！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不能說假的。是啊！是你砍我預算沒有錯啊！"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，我哪有砍你預算？我現在是問你如何使用。邱委員，你以後要作證啊！我在經濟委員會只是問你如何使用。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，因為你們的版本就砍了我們的預算，委員，你都沒有看，所以你不知道你砍了我的預算，很多委員都不知道砍了我300億！"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，管主委，我沒有砍你預算，我問你在1,500億元中，你說你只有300億而已，國防部1,200億，由國防部來護航你，你很委屈，本來你應該要比較多……"],["管主任委員碧玲：砍預算不是砍我的部分。不是，到目前為止，我3月26日開了一個會議……"],["陳委員超明：你跟國防部討回來，我支持你啦！這樣可以嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不行，你不能說假的，全世界……"],["陳委員超明：我絕對說真的，我這個人是很老實的，我很老實的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國防預算的定義是什麼？3月26日開會的時候就不把我算在裡面了，因為那個定義在全世界有各種不同的定義方式，所以才變成是國土安全預算……"],["陳委員超明：你現在說有不同意義，現在是強韌，我想說是國防部的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我好不容易進來了，結果你們現在又把我砍掉。"],["陳委員超明：現在海洋委員會很厲害，你只有300億而已，你不夠要向國防部拿嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我300億，至少3年的預算可以補喔！"],["主席：不要再砍了，不要再砍了。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！你不要說我有砍你預算喔！現在先說清楚，我聽到都嚇死了……"],["主席：現在都沒有砍了，沒有兇殺案。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，你們砍了我300億，拜託不要把它砍掉。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！了解、了解。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請邱委員志偉做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王正旭","陳玉珍","邱鎮軍","顏寬恒","翁曉玲","蘇清泉","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、\n本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委\n員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院\n委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}