{"error":false,"id":["161402"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":161402,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161402","日期":"2025-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-20-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-15T09:25:27+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-15T09:37:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181c96b63ae670b171e139dba296d6b924f095f14eb3eda5a5479b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:25:27 - 09:37:28","會議時間":"2025-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案62案、有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案。【報告事項】\n二、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案17案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案。【討論事項】\n【5月14日及15日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.79034375,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.880968750000001,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.51346875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.981593750000002,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.78284375,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.73596875,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.430968750000005,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.36284375,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.52721875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.93346875,"end":57.524093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.99659375,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.61659375000001,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.265968750000006,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.31596875000001,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.17659375000001,"end":72.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.35284375,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.39846875,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.67221875,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.22471875000001,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.26659375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.31971875,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.71159375,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.64596875000001,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.79346875,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.83971875,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.92784375000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.42909375,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.82971875000001,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.45784375,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.92909375000002,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.39659375000002,"end":144.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.27346875,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.54721875,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.28534375,"end":157.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.35659375,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.68659375000001,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.32784375,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.76659375,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.13346875000002,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.40346875,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.53221875,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.33096875,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.16159375,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.23284375,"end":225.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.64971875,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.15346875,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.62909375,"end":250.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.77659375000002,"end":252.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.27409375000002,"end":254.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.01221875000002,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.31159375000004,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.36971875,"end":268.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.76534375,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.16096875,"end":289.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.09971875,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.12784375,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.83221875000004,"end":379.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.68471875,"end":392.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.72909375,"end":395.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.90159375,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.53846875000005,"end":398.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.34846875000005,"end":398.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.88409375000003,"end":429.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.85409375,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.34221875000003,"end":462.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.61284375,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.76034375,"end":480.93471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.57596875,"end":487.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.87034375,"end":500.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.78409375,"end":518.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.0047187499999,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.0234687500001,"end":551.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.0290937500001,"end":556.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.60221875,"end":569.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.0009687500001,"end":570.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.8615937500001,"end":570.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.92909375,"end":570.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.96284375,"end":609.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.30284375,"end":612.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.85534375,"end":626.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.6084687499999,"end":625.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.2622187500001,"end":630.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.0378437500001,"end":642.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.6984687500001,"end":644.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.1115937500001,"end":645.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.9722187500001,"end":655.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.18159375,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.0278437500001,"end":677.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.20909375,"end":669.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.0347187500001,"end":700.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":685.8815937500001,"end":685.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.38784375,"end":686.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":686.40471875,"end":687.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.36971875,"end":695.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.00596875,"end":711.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.00409375,"end":712.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.3415937500001,"end":714.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.9740937500001,"end":716.9822187500001}],"whisperx":[]},"gazette":{"lineno":194,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時25分）謝謝主席。請陳主計長及莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長及陳主計長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長和主計長，我們都知道最近我們希望核三廠能夠延役，而且這個案子我們主動提出，就是希望政府在延役以前，能夠做一些檢查以後繼續使用，因為核電是最經濟的電，而且是最乾淨的電，現在全世界都把核電列為像綠電一樣。從過去到現在我們已經撥補3,000億給台電，最近又要撥補1,000億，但是昨天卓院長特別提到這1,000億要是不給的話，它馬上又要漲電價。其實之前雖然給了3,000億，但是從過去到現在也調漲了4次，我相信大家都很清楚，並不是沒有漲價。","本席認為能源政策要是沒有長遠性，台電的窟窿是永遠補不滿的，你們也沒有提出比較長遠的政策規劃，然後就要漲價，反正這次我們要是不給1,000億，你馬上就說電價審議委員會要來做漲價的審議，我認為這個窟窿永遠填不滿，政府又沒有提出好的政策，請問主計長你有什麼看法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實電價主要是凍漲好幾次，因為民生的電價是凍漲的，上次的凍漲導致台電有虧損，所以這次……"],["林委員德福：虧損也補了3,000億，但是3,000億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：上次那個是增資的部分，而這次主要是彌補它凍漲的虧損，而凍漲的虧損……"],["林委員德福：我請問你，這次要是給了1,000億，到底未來會不會繼續漲價？你告訴我。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為上次凍漲的虧損總共有兩千多億，所以我們是預計補2,000億，以目前1,000億來說，那是補一半，但是補一半也能讓它的情況更好，其實國外漲得更多，我們主要是因為民生的電價有凍漲。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我們很清楚核電是最經濟的電，一度只有一塊多，至於其他綠電，包括風電、光電，我們知道都要五、六塊或六、七塊，所以台電只要給一度就虧損連連，也因此每一年都要補，而且這個洞永遠補不完。我舉個例子，像離岸風電的風機夏天不轉，但是夏天用電最多，家家戶戶都要用冷氣；到了冬天，當你不需要用那麼多電的時候，它卻是24小時一直轉，因為有東北季風嘛！光是離岸風電一年就要虧損455億，你可以去查，我絕對不是亂講話，20年就虧損9,100億，所以台電的窟窿是永遠補不完的。今天要是沒有用核電，沒有用這種安定且經濟的電，我認為政府拿不出一個比較好的方式，光是一句非核家園就把整個台電搞得永遠是一個大窟窿，而且是補不完喔！請問莊部長你有什麼看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，剛剛對於台電的財務狀況，主計長已經說得很清楚了，我想在用電的部分，不管是核電也好或綠電也好，這涉及非常大的專業，其實昨天在經濟委員會及財政委員會的聯席會議裡面已經說得很清楚，關於核電的運用，第一個是核安的問題，另外還有核廢料的事情以及全民的共識，這些都是要充分考量的。"],["林委員德福：其他國家或鄰近的國家沒有核安的問題嗎？他們沒有這些問題嗎？只有我們有嗎？我們都知道光電、風電都是你要有關係才能夠拿到，以我的看法，今天這些就是因為有關係、都是綠友友，所以他們長期……你看賴勁麟有19家光電，一年賺台電多少錢？大家清清楚楚的嘛，這個不必掩飾也不必掩蓋。我們今天是要解決問題，這是永遠存在的問題，今天你不解決，未來還是存在，而且是一個大窟窿，永遠補不完。你們說要漲價，其實這已經通過核管，讓你們能夠延役，你們只要把它檢查好就能繼續使用，但我們的政府偏偏就是不要。老百姓有什麼看法？老百姓認為你們可能是要挺那些有關係的人，讓他們能夠長期持有，因為這個是他們最大的利益，所以你們不願意讓核電廠解套，講實在話，老百姓是看不下去的！我們希望站在政府部會首長的立場，你們的眼光要放長遠一點，要以老百姓為依歸。我們認為電要是便宜的話，經濟就會提升，你不要用這個來卡，講實在話，人民是看不下去的！","外媒披露美、韓財政官員於5月初商討匯率的問題，陳主計長在接受質詢時也說，新臺幣升值會讓臺灣整個經濟成長的表現降低一些，如果突破彭淮南防線，全年經濟成長率將下修0.1%，請問部長，如果臺美關稅貿易談判涉及匯率，以財政部的立場，你會有哪些談判的建議？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於臺灣和美國之間關稅政策的談判，這部分已經在5月1號由正副院長領軍到美國去做初步的諮商，我想後續會有一些更具體或更細節的交流及討論，據我所知並沒有談到匯率的問題。"],["林委員德福：但是確實是從三十二塊多降到30塊，現在是在30.2和30.5中間徘徊，部長，你認為未來新臺幣要升值到多少，才會對國內進出口業有負面的影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然匯率的變動事實上是按照市場的供需會有所波動，我們也知道新臺幣的匯率其實是從27.5到33之間都有過，那要看長期的趨勢，如果是短期間的話，它的影響基本上並不是非常明顯。"],["林委員德福：但是這段時間以來，你看那麼短的時間就馬上從三十二點多降到30，幾乎都在30周邊徘徊，因為市場所稱彭淮南防線就是新臺幣28.5元兌換1美元，如果發生新臺幣28.5元兌換1美元，就會下修0.1%的GDP，請問你認為對財政部稅收又會發生哪些影響及衝擊呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然稅收與國際經濟情勢及國內經濟都會有關聯，那一天央行總裁也提到沒有所謂的彭淮南防線，對於匯率的部分，央行也都持續在關注，對於那一天比較大幅度的波動，他們也有相關的一些措施。"],["林委員德福：部長，4月稅收短少，全球關稅談判未定，再加上對經濟成長的預測又都是下調，請問你認為今年稅收不如去年是不是已經成定數？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於今年的稅收，其實我們原來編的預算是超過113年的實徵數九百多億，我們在預算的編列上已經比去年的實徵數來得高，以到4月來說的話，全國的部分確實比去年同期減少大概85億，主要是證交稅的部分，因為證交稅的日均量比原來我們所預估的日均量來得低，目前1到4月的日均量是三千九百多億，跟去年的4,600億是有差距，我想……"],["林委員德福：所以只有證交稅有影響，其他都沒有影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要是我們現在看到所收的數字跟有影響的部分是證交稅，其他的部分變動不大，至於像遺產稅跟贈與稅都是屬於機會稅，這個不能夠當做……"],["林委員德福：部長、主計長，目前還是未定數啦，怎麼講呢？對岸他們硬邦邦、死板板，結果你看川普他就降了，而且降到讓人民有感，但是我們的政府幾乎是人家要你站著，你就趴著；人家要你坐著，你就跪著。講實在話，最近我看社論和一些評論，對我們政府現在這樣的操作方式真的極不能接受，我們希望經濟要提升，至於怎麼提升，該硬還是要硬，而不是軟趴趴的，人家講一，我們做到三給人家，那個不通的啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於關稅政策，在4月2號川普政府公布以後，針對對等關稅臺灣達到32%這個部分，行政院也緊急邀集各部會提出了支持方案，主要是對產業的支持，就是穩定產業、安定民心……"],["林委員德福：那個是最重要的。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於後續的諮商，相信也會在維持我們產業競爭力的前提之下去跟美國溝通。另外對非關稅的貿易壁壘部分，我們也會做一個好的安排。"],["林委員德福：你看日本、韓國他們有多硬，我們從媒體各方面都看得清清楚楚，只有我們是軟趴趴的，政府不應該有這樣的態度，我希望你們要硬起來，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接續請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":521,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案 62案、有關\n審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案；二、處理\n中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案 17案及有關行政院主\n計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案","agenda_id":"1144901_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}