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政是為人民服務，不管是稅務、關務、國務以及我們各項的業務，都是為民眾服務，刪跟凍最後受傷的是民眾。"],["吳委員秉叡：邏輯是這樣沒有錯，問題它不顧這一些啊！它就是要給你難看，讓你施政困難，就是用這樣的方式在找麻煩，它現在不就事論事。如果在水平分配上面的指標繼續進行，你有業務上的需要，這個經費夠嗎？因為你還要再跟地方政府開會啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們需要經費才能夠持續推動。"],["吳委員秉叡：你自己估計還要多久的時間才可以把各項指標收攏到你認為可以制定成公式的狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：就財政部來說，在水平分配的指標部分，我們做詳細的規劃跟精進，但是以整體財劃法來說，它還涉及到……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，垂直分配、事權分配那一部分你剛剛有講，先不論那個，光是橫向的、水平的各個縣市政府之間的分配指標，你估計還要多久時間才可以訂出一個大家可能比較可以接受的標準？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們覺得還是要持續，至於時間的部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有估過？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有辦法具體做一個時間表。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，那個真的很困難。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實是很困難。"],["吳委員秉叡：馬政府8年、蔡政府8年，一樣都達不到這個，因為只要談到分配，每個人都希望自己的地方多分一些，所以這個我是覺得已經把它完全做成政治的攻防，要注意這一點，你們要避免被操弄成政治的攻防。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來還有一點，剛剛也有委員提到，關於今年的稅收狀況，如果實徵數超過預算數3,000億，它還要立法要怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣，把行政院的預算權全部都瓜分掉。再來，我要求你預算編列寧願列高、寧願達不到目標，不要被他們拿來政治操弄說3,000億還稅於民。還稅於民的定義是要還給繳稅的人，怎麼被拿來這樣子分配呢？這肉桶政治嘛！其實中華民國是租稅法定主義，這很清楚，大家都知道，財政部所收的稅，每一毛錢、每一塊錢都必須是法律明定可以收的才可以收。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這沒有什麼超收的問題，基本上就是法律規定該收的稅就收，這個哪裡有超過？沒有一毛錢是不應該收的啊！所謂超過的部分是超過預算數，預算是一個估計數。我舉一個例子，小弟本人今年預計要賺200萬來養家活口，結果到年底我一結算，哇！真不好意思，我今年業績比較好，或是其他外快比較多，上了比較多的電視或比較多的訪談、比較多的演講，我變成收入210萬，你可以說那10萬塊是多拿的，那個都送給國家嗎？邏輯上這個就是不通，因為預算就是一個估計數，我在這個地方講，他們老是要拿這個東西來做文章、來做政治的攻防。你可不可以將估計數估高一點？就避免掉這一種無謂的政治攻防，在那邊無理取鬧啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想財政部在估稅課收入的時候，每年都會根據相關的一些參數來估計，一定要核實估計。"],["吳委員秉叡：稅課收入訂得高，若收不到那個標準，國稅局的人會被懲處嗎？有這個規定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我想不會這樣子，但是對整個財政資源的運用來說，也是會有影響。"],["吳委員秉叡：還是你們會把他的考績打得比較差？比如臺北國稅局局長的預算數應該要收5,000億，結果只有收到4,800億，因為達不到目標，所以他的考績要打╳，有這個規定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不會，因為稅是按照法律規定來收的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！既然如此，你們何不把它高估，至少要估得高一點，達不到，只收到98%、99%，沒關係啊！超過預算數現在變成有罪，被拿來操弄啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，確實不應該，因為事實上，我們的實徵數超過預算數並不表示財政有餘裕，還要看整體的歲出，以及還要做債務還本。"],["吳委員秉叡：財政有沒有餘裕是看它當時訂了什麼課題啦！它今天要跟你講國債很多的時候，就說你財政很糟糕；今天要做其他議題的時候，就跟你講多很多，要分回去，這個是先有結論再找理由的啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：先射箭再畫靶。我在這邊再一次地懇求你……"],["莊部長翠雲：不敢。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們寧願略為高估一點，達不到目標，大家都知道是為了要避免這種政治操弄嘛！達不到目標，也沒有人要去追究、也沒有人去怪罪，你會怪罪宋署長嗎？你會怪罪五區國稅局局長嗎？應該不會吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，因為課稅都要依法律。"],["吳委員秉叡：大家都是明理人，我們都是依照法律收稅的啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來一個議題是，現在要給你訂定一個法律，如果實徵數超過預算數3,000億以上，錢要怎麼花、怎麼花，它都幫你想好了呢！"],["莊部長翠雲：是不好的，對整個國家財政不是一個好事。"],["吳委員秉叡：根本是完全沒有邏輯，而且很奇怪，就是利用資訊的落差，利用一般人沒有那麼關心財稅的問題，然後就說有一筆錢，好大一筆，我們大家來花吧！大家拿刀來砍吧！看誰能夠分到比較多。就是這樣子的一個邏輯，然後就說：你看，我幫你們多爭取了這麼多，所以你們要感謝我，我這個民意代表當得很棒啊！看起來邏輯就是這樣，這是很離譜的，希望你能夠堅持原則，加油，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":521,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案 62案、有關\n審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案；二、處理\n中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案 17案及有關行政院主\n計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案","agenda_id":"1144901_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}