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Guard是有飛機、大砲跟飛潬的，我們現在的海巡，我難得看到你們用所謂的水砲槍，更不要說用真槍實彈了，所以在雙方的武力上當然是有落差的。不過，今天本席要請教你的是，當中國用灰色地帶的方式在騷擾我們，形成我們海巡困擾的時候，我們現在海巡因應的策略是什麼？有沒有分成金門、馬祖、海峽中線、南海、東海等等，你們現在的策略是什麼？"],["謝副署長慶欽：非常感謝委員的指導。我先跟委員報告一下，目前中共灰色地帶對我們的侵擾程度是日益增加，剛剛委員提到，它從2018年隸屬武警總隊以來，其1,000噸以上的海警船從40艘增加到目前的150艘以上。有關委員剛剛質詢的部分，我們現在的重點有三大特徵，第一個就是，目前在金門大概每個月4次，這是例行的，我們都是一對一……"],["王委員定宇：是他侵入我們的水域嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：對，都是在我們水域。"],["王委員定宇：我看這樣子好了，因為時間的關係，但我希望能讓你完整表達。我真正要問的問題是，你的第一個重點是，它日益升高。我現在假設一個狀況，他們英文的名字叫「Quarantine」，如果他們用他們的海警去攔我們的船，第一種情形是在國際水域，他們去攔查駛向高雄港、臺中港的貨船，你們有沒有因應方案？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有，我們在全社會防衛……"],["王委員定宇：怎麼做？直接講你們會怎麼做。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們目前是這樣，會跟海軍配合，原則上是一對一，我們在茫茫大海的海域上要封控不是那麼簡單，所以我們會派遣艦船……"],["王委員定宇：好，我對你這一段的理解是，如果它去攔查我們的船、駛向臺灣的貨船，我們海巡要一對一去因應它嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：只是在茫茫大海上，我們的船速是24節、30節，就算再快，到的時候事件搞不好都已經結束了，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：針對這樣的情形，你們有沒有什麼精進的作法？"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，是這樣的，我們原則上會配合聯合情、監、偵的手段，海軍的部分會撤離，因為這個時候封控，廣義來講是視同作戰，但是我們的重點是，在這種灰色地帶，會由海軍艦艇先一對一擋住海警船，另外我們會開闢安全航道，這個我們會做到。"],["王委員定宇：你現在的講法是……我講的是在國際水域去攔查掛我國國旗的船，或是駛向臺灣的船，我們海巡會採取的強硬作為就是去抵住它的海警，然後開闢安全水道讓這個船脫離嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：重點是在保護我們的國籍船，又或者是要運到我們國內……"],["王委員定宇：那這個是標準作為，還是要現場視情況？因為這個就會升高緊張了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，原則上是這樣，因為我們國籍船就是算我們的……"],["王委員定宇：它叫浮動主權，就是我們主權的一部分。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以我們會保護它的安全。"],["王委員定宇：百分之百？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：要百分之百，這個是不能打折扣的喔！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。其他的話，比方說剛才講的……"],["王委員定宇：如果是國際的船，但它的目的地是臺灣的港口，他們進行所謂的攔查，我們該怎麼做？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分會涉及到國家安全，原則上在我們的管轄海域內我們會保護它的安全，開闢安全航道，這部分甚至會跟……"],["王委員定宇：你剛剛講的keywords是我們的海域內嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：是12浬內嗎？還是在經濟水域？"],["謝副署長慶欽：原則上是在經濟水域。"],["王委員定宇：在經濟水域就可以了嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：對不起，是到24浬。"],["王委員定宇：24浬，是不是臨接區？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：12浬是我們的領海，24浬是臨接區，經濟水域則是更寬的嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：有200浬。"],["王委員定宇：所以是進到24浬，如果這個船不是我國國籍的船舶，但卻是要駛向我國的話，我們就要去開闢安全水道。如果是我國國籍船舶在國際水域或任何水域遭遇到這樣的情形，我們在可以的範圍內……"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們會全力保護。"],["王委員定宇：要全力保護，就是百分之百要處理。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：你現在先不要下去，我請國安局，我要問國安局的題目是，你們有沒有掌握情資，中國會升高對我們灰色地帶的侵擾，下一個動作就是要做……他們現在已經在預演了，有沒有可能進行所謂的quarantine攔查的這個動作？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們每天遭到中共相關的灰色襲擾……"],["王委員定宇：有沒有這樣的情資或研析？或者是相關的主管可以上來支援？我要問的答案，並不是要給你們考試。我們蒐集那麼多情報，你的情報是要讓國家的各單位用，如果我是海巡署也會想知道，他們在升高……目前聯合戰備警巡是一個禮拜一次，然後有一些聯合戰備警巡改了名字，改成利劍A、利劍B，裡面都有一個科目叫「quarantine」，這個翻譯跟那個封鎖不太一樣，大概是類似攔查的方式在做，你們目前有沒有這樣的情資？"],["黃副局長明昭：之前就已經有這樣的動作了。比方說攔檢，就是在東沙攔檢他們的漁船，但這個也是一個演練，他們在演練。"],["王委員定宇：他是演練啦！"],["黃副局長明昭：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：但是它有這樣的演練，有沒有情資它在近期內會採取這樣的動作？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想我們經過廣泛的情蒐會做一個研判，到時候如果我們認為這是有可能的話，會提供給相關單位處理。"],["王委員定宇：國安局是情報單位，你們是全國最高情報機關，你蒐集的情資要轉成海巡署的作為。","我回到海巡署，副署長，現在這個態勢有升高到quarantine的情形。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：剛才你點了幾個問題，剛好我今天要問的，我們的船速有限，它的船把我們的海底電纜勾斷了，中華電信第一秒知道就會通知海巡，可是我們的船在哪裡不一定，我們也許會在目標區預置兵力，但是有時候趕到的時候，它已經脫離犯罪現場……"],["謝副署長慶欽：的確。"],["王委員定宇：或者我們的船被攔查，趕到的時候，它已經離開了，形成它攔查執行公權力的假象，它要把那個內海化，我們不能讓它變成內海化，我們的執行能力就要提升，你剛才提到這樣子，那你怎麼改善這個到達現場的速度？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，兩個方式，現在海巡署全力要爭取經費，建置遠距偵蒐的能力，遠距偵蒐的能力……"],["王委員定宇：那是蒐證而已……"],["謝副署長慶欽：對，要提早應變，第二……"],["王委員定宇：你也可以用無人機去搜查啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：第二個、造艦部分，我們現在還有新的造艦計畫，要有更好的性能；另外，在特別預算裡面，我們也極力爭取要增加水面無人船……"],["王委員定宇：你這個特別預算其實就在那4,100億裡面……"],["謝副署長慶欽：1,500億中……"],["王委員定宇：提升國土安全防衛韌性裡面嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，包括水面無人船，包括水下載具……"],["王委員定宇：在野黨藍白說，要把那個刪掉耶！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們會全力爭取。"],["王委員定宇：就是要因應這個新威脅狀況的預算，他們要刪掉耶！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以我們全力爭取，跟委員報告，因為刻不容緩，所以我們全力爭取。"],["王委員定宇：這個其實是很迫切的威脅……"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們是要造艦計畫，我其實要提出一點，我也希望國安局的情報研析要轉成海巡署的作為，速度很重要，美國的海巡有沒有空中兵力、有沒有空勤？"],["謝副署長慶欽：美國的海巡確定有。"],["王委員定宇：美國的海巡空勤其實是世界上排名前五大的空軍喔！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是、是。"],["王委員定宇：各國的海巡，尤其海洋國家，不是只能靠船，要有空中兵力，以前我們的保七也有空警，現在海巡署有沒有發展空勤海巡的計畫？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為我們要爭取預置的時間，所以我們全力在規劃遠距偵搜的各種裝備，包括空中能量。"],["王委員定宇：好，時間關係，我最後收尾，我給你快速跑一些。事實上，對方用海巡來灰色地帶侵擾，一面是在玩法律戰，一面在玩心理戰，它在玩政治，所以最好的因應方式就是用灰色地帶來回應灰色地帶。我們跟美方、日方在遙遠的地方曾有聯合操演，像最近一次，跟日本，有自1972年以來首次臺灣跟日本的海巡單位在日本沿海進行操演，還有我們跟美國、日本在帛琉附近進行聯合操演，我們跟美國Coast Guard簽訂的訓練合約都有了，假設中國用水警騷擾我們水域，國安局也應該反映上去，我們能不能聯合這些國家，我們是用海巡、是因應颱風的人道威脅，進行聯合演訓、聯合演習的地點就在臺灣海峽。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們有配合外交部，對於友好國家，甚至邦交國，這個方向，我們同意，全力努力。"],["王委員定宇：好。我最後兩個建議：第一個、臺灣的海疆幅員廣大，我們的漁民需要保護，請你們發展空勤海巡，這個是一定要做，你再不做，速度都來不及了……"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，我們應該聯合友盟國家，特別是美、日、臺、菲（菲律賓）、澳洲這5國的海巡，我們現在在遙遠的水域是有，我們不好講，但是在臺灣鄰近水域，中共在玩政治、在玩法律戰，我們就結合友盟國家的海巡，這不是軍隊，我們是進行颱風天漂流船的人道援助、救援演練，各出一艘船，規模也不用太大，它在哪裡聯合戰備警巡，我們就在哪裡操演，這個可以去做。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，的確，救援無國界，這個部分我們完全贊成，全力以赴。"],["王委員定宇：這個建議我們跟某些國家已經在談了，請你們把這個案子擬好去執行，謝謝。"],["謝副署長慶欽：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}