{"error":false,"id":["161426"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":161426,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161426","日期":"2025-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-35-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-15T10:39:38+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-15T10:48:39+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181c49a08c7f008f57b581586c022403610f0cc24d356c57dbccb8972f08e7de1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:39:38 - 10:48:39","會議時間":"2025-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全之影響」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.72221875,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.687843750000003,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.41721875,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.653468750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.24346875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.32784375,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.02909375,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.26534375,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.31596875000001,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.36659375,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.96596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.56909375000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.07034375,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.26846875000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.92159375,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":133.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.73971875,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.69721875000002,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.98409375,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.26659375,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.84846875,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.09284375000001,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.21846875,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.45471875,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.76971875,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.80534375000002,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.15534375000001,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.34096875,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.50534375,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.41221875000002,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.30846875,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.71721875,"end":198.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.03221875000003,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.39471875,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.43409375000002,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.50159375,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.61971875,"end":255.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.73784375000002,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.77159375000002,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.86346875000004,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.07971875000004,"end":282.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.14721875000004,"end":282.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.69971875000005,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.44971875000005,"end":290.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.66909375,"end":320.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.71471875000003,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.31346875,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.42221875,"end":304.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.59096875,"end":304.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.68596875000003,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.18346875000003,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.96221875000003,"end":332.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.02971875000003,"end":332.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.53596875,"end":355.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.08159375,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.51971875000004,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.12721875,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.03846875000005,"end":357.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.15659375,"end":357.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.96659375,"end":357.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.98346875000004,"end":378.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.65534375000004,"end":379.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":383.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.74284375,"end":386.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.51909375,"end":388.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.71284375000005,"end":390.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.18096875000003,"end":426.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.44534375,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.85784375000003,"end":433.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.39346875,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.31659375000004,"end":440.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.85221875,"end":442.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.51346875,"end":450.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.08284375000005,"end":457.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.41159375,"end":453.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.91721875,"end":462.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.76909375,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.22471875,"end":480.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.86284375,"end":483.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.58409375,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.48971875,"end":493.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.78471875,"end":496.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.07971875000004,"end":498.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.09659375,"end":499.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.76721875000004,"end":499.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.78409375,"end":500.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.32409375000003,"end":500.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.42096875000004,"end":513.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.22659375,"end":503.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.92659375000005,"end":506.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.03096875,"end":526.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.5478437500001,"end":527.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.20596875,"end":532.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.3190937500001,"end":539.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.6303437500001,"end":539.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.59221875,"end":539.60909375}],"whisperx":[]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時39分）謝謝主席。我們先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：有請沈副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員好！"],["李委員坤城：副主委好！今天是5月15日，520快要接近了，你也知道，在520的時候，中國一定蠢蠢欲動……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["李委員坤城：不論利用文攻武嚇或是什麼其他形式，一定會有所動作。","我先請教一下，因為昨天陸委會主委接受專訪時有說，臺灣的藝人在中國發展可能會在特定時節配合中國發表一些對臺灣不利的言論，不論是武統或是要消滅臺灣這個中華民國主權的言論。我看主委有特別提到，歐陽娜娜是查核的重要對象。我想請教一下，對於不論是在軍演或是在去年國慶等等，這些在中國發展有逾越界限的藝人，目前查處的情況怎麼樣？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：這個部分，跟委員報告，基本上，我們和文化部已經有開過幾次的協調會，現在是希望能夠蒐集到具體事證，我們還是要根據比較客觀的標準，譬如他如果轉發一些什麼祝祖國生日快樂，這種或許不是令人很舒服，但是並沒有真正逾越所謂的紅線。我們現在設定的紅線有兩條，第一個就是他的言論已經是明確表達要消滅我國家主權，這是第一條紅線，第二條紅線就是他們要破壞我們自由民主的憲政秩序。如果踩到這兩條紅線，並且有具體事證，這個具體事證包含他可能在網路上面轉貼或者是他公開唱和，又或者是他在一些非特定場合有這樣相關的言論，我們蒐整完畢之後，會協同文化部，邀請當事人來做相關說明，之後就會針對第三十三條之一來進行適當的處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，那你們和文化部之間的這一個行政指導原則出來了沒有？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有，已經開過會，也已經討論出來了。"],["李委員坤城：有很確定了嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有很確定了。"],["李委員坤城：有確定了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對、對。"],["李委員坤城：這個指導原則可不可以給我們一份？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可以，沒問題，我們事後再把相關資料蒐整完，提供給委員。"],["李委員坤城：所以就兩條紅線嘛！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["李委員坤城：兩條紅線，所以……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對不起！再跟委員補充一下，另外，當然也包含武統，因為武統就是要消滅國家主權、消滅國家主權，如果他還唱和武統的話，那就是重中之重了。"],["李委員坤城：你說會發函給他們或是經紀公司來做說明就對了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，這是當事人的權益，我們還是必須按照行政程序走。"],["李委員坤城：好。因為520要到了，我相信中國可能會要求臺灣的藝人要做一些政治的表態啦！你們這個行政指導原則已經有公開了嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：還沒有、還沒有。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有公開。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["李委員坤城：哪時候會公開呢？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：因為這個權責機關是在文化部，所以我們可能還是要尊重文化部的意見。"],["李委員坤城：我是建議，在520之前，如果你們已經討論定案，就先公開……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好。"],["李委員坤城：讓這些藝人知道我們的這個行政指導原則是什麼，讓大家不要逾越這條紅線，不然，不教而殺謂之虐嘛！"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，我們也認為這樣子公布可以幫助我們的藝人，藝人在那邊如果遭受到壓迫，他可以讓對岸知道我們會查處，而且我們的標準在這邊，就不要再去逼我們的藝人做這個沒有意義的動作了。"],["李委員坤城：好啊！我希望你再跟文化部講一下，520之前就公開，最好今天就能夠公開，如果都已經確定的話。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：好。"],["李委員坤城：另外一個，有人反映，現在中國人來臺灣的途徑變得很多，像是來臺灣參加演唱會，或是來臺灣參加展覽，我看臉書上面或是Treads上面還有人公布如何來臺灣參展，連臺灣下半年度有哪些展覽都列出來、有哪些演唱會都列出來。我想請問一下，我們對於參展或是參加演唱會這一些活動的審核標準是比較低嗎？讓他們比較順利能夠進來嗎？你們有發現這個趨勢嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有，我們也有收到一些民眾的檢舉，最近也有一些特定的案例。","跟委員報告，基本上，我們放寬這個所謂的短期商務入境是在112年8月24日，當初的目的是希望能夠活絡兩岸的商機，並且讓臺灣的相關商業活動可以得到更多的發展機會，但比較遺憾的是我們也觀察到最近確實有一些不肖仲介會鑽這個漏洞，利用他可以辦商務簽來吸引人的這個手法，讓中國大陸的人民可以用商務簽來臺灣追星、旅遊，從事跟目的不符合的活動。","我們現在的作法大概就是有三道防線來降低這個情況的發生及惡化，一個就是事前我們會開始針對對象、行程的合理性及必要性進一步和移民署來加強查核，也就是他究竟是不是商務人士，或者裡面的內容明明是他要來參展，可是他去阿里山或日月潭。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看他們說入臺申請方式也可以用代發邀請，就是他本身可能不是廠商，而是誰就能夠邀請他進來，這個就變成門檻放得很寬。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，所以這個就是剛剛所提到的，如果我們在事後發現邀請的對象或者邀請方，邀請方一定是臺灣的，不管是掛名的公司或者協會，如果實質上真的是在進行仲介，我們就會給予查處，並且六個月到五年之內就不再受理它的任何申請。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得要注意他們有抓住這個漏洞。臺灣目前演唱會蠻多的，他們有的來聽演唱會，但有的是利用這個機會就進來，所以你們要去查。如果你們也發現有這個趨勢，即申請進來的目的跟實際的行為不一樣、有落差，你們要掌握一下。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：會，沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。","最後一個問題，我問一下國安局副局長。"],["主席：黃副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：同樣也是520。因為有看到這個報導，現在中國在北京舉辦拉美論壇，有臺灣（中華民國）的兩個邦交國──海地跟聖露西亞，海地是部長有出現，聖露西亞則是他們的一個代表有出現。因為這兩個是我們的邦交國，出現在北京而且是由習近平所主持的拉美論壇，會變得比較敏感。我也擔心是不是在520之前，我們的邦交國會有一些狀況？我不曉得國安局有沒有掌握到什麼樣的情況？"],["黃副局長明昭：從這個會議來看，聖露西亞是由政黨代表出席，不是政府官員……"],["李委員坤城：他是用政黨代表的身分去。"],["黃副局長明昭：對。另外，其他在拉美、加勒比海地區的友邦都沒有派人參加。"],["李委員坤城：海地呢？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然海地是比較那個……國家，所以我們不要評論。但是從這幾個……"],["李委員坤城：怎麼樣的國家？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們從幾個這樣看，還有經過我們蒐整相關的情資來看，我們這幾個邦交國還算很穩固，應該不會……"],["李委員坤城：我就講兩個國家，一個是海地，另一個是聖露西亞，因為他們有到北京去參加，這兩個國家是我們的邦交國，所以我才想在520之前，中國是不是會利用這些邦交國跟臺灣斷交來恫嚇、威嚇我們的政府？有沒有掌握一些相關的訊息？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們都不排除，因為中共的襲擾或者相關軍事演習不斷在進行，常態性的在演訓，所以我們也不排除在520之前或之後有一些動作出來。"],["李委員坤城：外交上面的嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我剛剛講的是520，但520這一段時間的外交，目前來看，我們的幾個邦交國沒有鬆動的情形。"],["李委員坤城：因為也不能公開講太多，就是注意一下。因為這個訊息在報章雜誌上都有，畢竟是臺灣的邦交國到了北京參加習近平主持的論壇，我認為有一點點詭異，希望你們能夠掌握相關情資，也擔心中國又在520之前有特別大的動作出來，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝副局長。謝謝主席。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}