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12:44:23","會議時間":"2025-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案62案、有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案。【報告事項】\n二、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案17案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案。【討論事項】\n【5月14日及15日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.91659375,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.30471875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.664718750000002,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.42409375,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.44471875,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.36846875,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.49846875,"end":35.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.68784375,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.15159375,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.187843750000006,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.91221875,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.38034375,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.81846875,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.37909375000001,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.37409375,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.70659375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.48659375000001,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.47346875000001,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.80159375000001,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.58159375000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.22284375000001,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.49221875,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.58034375000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.01471875,"end":104.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.48284375,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.82846875000001,"end":109.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.68034375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.98784375000001,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.64034375000001,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.01909375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.25221875,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.88034375,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.81596875,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.00534375,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.58096875,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":185.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.87096875,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.41909375,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.60846875000001,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.49721875,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.12971875000002,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.21346875,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.14534375000002,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.99221875,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.21971875000003,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.30784375000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.74596875,"end":235.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.09534375,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.79534375000003,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.24159375000002,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.06409375,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.78534375,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.69221875000002,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.37534375,"end":254.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.73784375000002,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.16784375000003,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.63596875,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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它做一個表格後也就是說在34年前民國80年的時候當時啊當時"},{"start":123.723,"end":130.848,"text":"前20%收入的家庭跟後20%的這個對照來講是16.8倍而現在擴大到民國110年擴大到66.9倍"},{"start":139.98,"end":144.163,"text":"那前20%家庭的財富佔比由49.71%佔整個社會財富49.71%提高到62.68%後20%家庭的財富佔比從2.95%降低到連1%都沒有"},{"start":164.076,"end":170.658,"text":"降低到連1%都沒有0.94那前20%的家庭財富民國80年的時候是1306萬到民國110年30年後5133萬然後後20%家庭從78萬降到77萬這很明顯的"},{"start":189.825,"end":208.044,"text":"嚴重的財富分配不均那我個人認為財富分配不均很重要的一項我們政府可以做的照說我們從財稅負擔從稅收可以來做調整而現在我們的稅收裡面我們總計我們總收去年3.48兆"},{"start":214.267,"end":229.096,"text":"3.45兆稅收裡面我們有高達21.8%是在綜合所得稅那在財產稅的部分不到10%只佔7.6%綜合所得稅遠高於財產稅3倍那也就是說"},{"start":238.857,"end":260.661,"text":"真的享受到低稅負擔的好處的是這些地主 財閥 老闆們啊 這非常清楚而負擔大部分 稅負來源的是我們勞工 上班族 薪資所得者"},{"start":261.667,"end":287.113,"text":"那這個部分當然說來話長啦也不能怪你一個人啦但是所以我具體我今天要講三件事我希望就是說第一件就是在於這個股利所得稅的計算方式我當時為了提高投資意願當時我們推動所謂股利所得分離課稅的新制"},{"start":289.283,"end":308.929,"text":"那這個形式當然是好但是原本前50大高股利的所得戶我們在105年106年統計他們他們股利所得得到的有效稅率是38.41%38.41%隔一年37.96%那是在105年106年"},{"start":318.28,"end":322.302,"text":"結果西治之後我們現在調降為28%從過去的38%降到28%對於鼓勵所得"},{"start":332.748,"end":354.66,"text":"我們少課了10%那當時是為了鼓勵大家說啊就是去提高他投資院大家去購買股票嘛而相對的喔那個當年舊稅制的時候107年上市的股票總市值是29兆3100億當時是這樣"},{"start":359.5,"end":376.343,"text":"就現在反而總市值算四塊總市值七十兆八千億啦我們反而把這個稅率降低所以我積極建議你今天帶回去研究我認為要階梯稅率"},{"start":377.919,"end":394.215,"text":"階梯稅率也就是說我們不是說不能定單一稅率說28%應該根據他鼓勵所得定階梯式的有低有高那整個拉高不能只有28%因為這是財產利得這是投資利得啊"},{"start":402.062,"end":422.047,"text":"那一般綜合所得稅是辛苦的勞苦的生斗小民上班勞工那這樣去得到的薪資所以遠低於這些鼓勵所得嘛希望階梯稅率再來另外一點就是說我們這個關於"},{"start":424.383,"end":435.483,"text":"租金的抵稅那現在我認為我們訂的租金抵稅太低啦我們現在訂的租金抵稅房屋租金抵稅"},{"start":437.165,"end":461.107,"text":"我們現在訂18萬元啦 18萬元那我認為啊 如果你橫估我們台北 新北 雙北實際的租金行情的話你可以看 在左邊這邊 這是台北而且這一部分 還是去年 還是低估的喔低估的 右邊是新北那我平均把它抓 平均把它抓一坪1500好了"},{"start":463.347,"end":484.397,"text":"雙北的部分那一個正常的小家庭至少也要20坪那就3萬元一年小家庭租金至少都要在雙北都要一年要36萬元我覺得18萬元的這個抵稅額太低啦太低啦所以我希望這幾點這個關於階梯稅率"},{"start":488.561,"end":492.967,"text":"鼓勵所得改文階梯稅率以及房屋"},{"start":494.461,"end":518.388,"text":"租金的抵稅我認為要提高這兩點是不是你帶回去研究那你在最短期間給我答覆好不好好謝謝委員的建議你多久可以答覆我我們就兩個月可以嗎兩個月兩個月會期都結束啦一個月好了好不好一個月好一個月我就等你一個月好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝部長"},{"start":526.38,"end":528.256,"text":"今日發言 今日正義發言委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時35分）謝謝主席。請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長好。3天前主計總處又公布了我們今年第一季前3個月的平均薪資，這個平均薪資有提高到4萬3,589元，可是相對的，我們有69.77%，也就是將近七成的民眾是領不到這個平均薪資的；6年前當時領不到平均薪資的是66.75%，這6年來再度擴大到69.77%，也就是貧富差距再度擴大。","而傷腦筋的是，我們受僱的民眾，員工，工時從110年的每個月166.7小時，一直逐年增加到去年的169.2小時，這是到去年底的統計，貧富差距再度擴大，而工時再創新高。","講到貧富差距擴大，去年5月主計總處也公布了家庭財富分配，我把它做了一個表格，也就是說，在34年前、民國80年的時候，當時前20%收入的家庭跟後20%收入的家庭的對照，是16.8倍；到了民國110年，擴大到66.9倍。前20%家庭的財富占整個社會的財富的比例從49.7%提高到62.68%；後20%家庭的財富占比從2.95%降低到連1%都沒有，變成0.94%。前20%的家庭財富，民國80年的時候是1,306萬，到了民國110年，也就是30年後變成5,133萬；後20%的家庭財富，從78萬降到77萬，這是很明顯的、很嚴重的財富分配不均。","我個人認為，財富分配不均很重要的一項，這是政府可以做的，照說我們可以從財稅負擔、從稅收來做調整，而現在的稅收裡面，像去年3.45兆的稅收裡面，有高達21.8%是在綜合所得稅；在財產稅的部分不到10%，只占了7.6%，綜合所得稅遠高於財產稅的3倍。也就是說，真的享受到低稅負擔的好處的是這些地主、財閥、老闆們，這非常的清楚，而負擔大部分稅負來源的是勞工、上班族、薪資所得者。","這個部分當然說來話長，也不能怪你一個人，但是我今天要具體地講三件事，第一件，就是在於股利所得稅的計算方式，為了提高投資意願，當時我們推動所謂股利所得分離課稅的新制，這個新制當然是好的，但是部長，原本前50大高股利的所得戶，我們在105年、106年有去統計，他們的股利所得、得到的有效稅率是38.41%，隔一年是37.96%，那是在105年、106年，結果新制之後，現在調降為28%，從過去的38%降到28%，對於股利所得少課了10%，當時是為了鼓勵大家提高投資意願去購買股票，而相對的，當年舊稅制的時候，107年上市股票總市值是29兆3,100億，當時是這樣，結果現在反而上市櫃總市值70兆8,000億，我們反而把稅率降低。所以我積極建議……你今天帶回去研究，我認為要階梯稅率，不是說不能定單一稅率28%，應該根據他的股利所得定階梯式的，有低、有高，整個拉高不能只有28%，因為這是財產利得、這是投資利得；一般綜合所得稅是辛苦的、勞苦的升斗小民、勞工上班所得到的薪資，遠低於這些股利所得，所以希望要階梯稅率。","再來，另外一點就是關於租金抵稅，我認為現在定的租金抵稅太低了，房屋租金抵稅現在是定18萬元，我認為如果你衡估臺北、新北（雙北）實際的租金行情的話，可以看在左邊這邊，這是臺北，而且這部分去年還是低估的喔！右邊是新北。雙北的部分我平均抓一坪1,500元好了，一個正常的小家庭至少也要20坪，那就3萬元，一年小家庭租金至少在雙北一年都要36萬元，我覺得18萬元的抵稅額太低啦！太低啦！","所以我希望這幾點，關於股利所得改為階梯稅率，以及房屋租金抵稅我認為要提高，這兩點是不是你帶回去研究，你在最短期間給我答復，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["王委員世堅：你多久可以答復我？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們就兩個月可以嗎？"],["王委員世堅：兩個月！兩個月會期都結束啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：1個月好了，好不好？"],["王委員世堅：好，1個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["王委員世堅：我就等你1個月，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","臨時提案","案由：本院委員賴士葆等7人，有鑒於金融業市場競爭激烈，國營金融機構近年來獲利屢創佳績，惟受限於預算法規範，無法及時支應額外購建固定資產之需求而削弱其競爭力，爰提案要求財政部及主計總處對國銀銀行購建固定資產預算之一般建築及設備計畫部分，除房屋及建築中之新建或購置各項辦公房屋、宿舍與交通及運輸設備中之購置管理用車輛，及增加國庫負擔經費者外，其餘項目金額在八千萬元以下者依業務需要自行辦理，並補辦預算，俾使固定資產購置規劃與執行更具彈性與行動力。是否有當，敬請公決！","提案人：賴士葆　　林德福　　顏寬恒　　賴惠員　　李彥秀　　林思銘　　鍾佳濱"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":521,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案 62案、有關\n審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案；二、處理\n中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案 17案及有關行政院主\n計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案","agenda_id":"1144901_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}