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教育部校園食材登錄平台設有學童乳品專區提供家長瞭解學校供應乳品的相關訊息該平台也設有飲食教育專區定期推播補充鈣質及膳食纖維等營養健康小知識另外在有關老舊校舍的一個補強、整建辦理成效部分"},{"start":2219.994,"end":2240.867,"text":"本部於98年起及系統化的辦理校舍耐震能力改善相關的計畫簡單來講在民國88年也就是1999年當時這個就發生921大地震那麼教育部從98年我們開始全面的這個普查當時在"},{"start":2242.928,"end":2263.419,"text":"這個九二一大地震之前所蓋設的這些校舍那麼總共有一萬七千多筆的提供教學使用涉及到安全的一些這個教學空間那麼從98年這個到111年總共投入了1315億元完成了補強6691棟以及拆除"},{"start":2272.225,"end":2275.179,"text":"涉及這一個安全危險的一個校舍2097棟"},{"start":2277.742,"end":2305.391,"text":"那麼一二年至一四年再投入八十二點三億持續辦理六十四棟補強及八十八棟的拆建工程在本部及地方各地方政府配合積極督導與協助下以完成耐震能力改善的學校校舍以近年歷史地震經未發生結構性震損顯示計畫的一定的一些成效"},{"start":2306.792,"end":2324.062,"text":"其四、考量校舍隨時逐步老化為進一步強化校舍的安全在未來規劃部分本部也已經在13年8月8日韓報行政院申請公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除、重建計畫"},{"start":2325.441,"end":2344.555,"text":"一、四至一一七年度計畫總經費三百五十億分別包括公共公建經費一百七十三億各地方政府依補助比例編列地方配合款八十六億及行政院一般性補助款九十一億希望透過爭取公建"},{"start":2345.786,"end":2372.173,"text":"預算以及行政院的一般補助款的挹注能夠加速校舍的一個整建工程最後本部將持續守護孩子的健康透過供應國產乳品增加學童每週飲用乳品次數打造孩子們良好的一個生長基礎期待孩子們養成良好的飲食習慣快樂的成長同時考量校舍隨時"},{"start":2373.813,"end":2395.232,"text":"隨著時間的推移,仍會逐步老化,產生危險且有鑒於地震的發生,且順發性極難以預料為確保校舍安全無疑,保障學校師生的安全本部將在既有的基礎上,再爭取行政院的經費益助,以地方政府共同協助"},{"start":2396.013,"end":2412.117,"text":"提升整體校舍安全,打造一個讓學生安心學習、快樂成長的校園環境以上報告,懇請大院委員持續給予本部支持及指導謝謝好,謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告接下來我們請農業部的杜次長進行報告報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2429.973,"end":2451.451,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天大院教育文化委員會召開會議農業部應邀列席委員會就推動學校採用國產可溯源儒品專案實施計畫辦理情形提出專案報告並得聆聽各位委員的著見深感榮幸慶請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2452.572,"end":2473.832,"text":"根據衛生福利部國民健康署2017年到2022年國民營養健康情況變遷的調查國內7到12歲的學童乳品普遍攝取不足該年齡的學童平均鈣的攝取量亦遠低於足夠的攝取量依據我國每日飲食指南乳品為食物中主要提供鈣質"},{"start":2475.453,"end":2478.975,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":2497.967,"end":2518.17,"text":"學校導入國產可溯源乳品的專案實施計畫希望藉由部會的協作提供學童國產優質乳品也提供好的鈣質來源希望學童主動飲用乳品均衡營養能夠將整個效果來達到那計畫的重點大概有三個第一個是供應的對象"},{"start":2519.111,"end":2535.688,"text":"是全國公立小學及其共產的附設幼稚園那供應的品項大概有三種第一個是國產的鮮乳第二是國產的保酒乳那對於乳糖不耐症的學童我們就提供國產的優質涵蓋豆漿所以這個品項一共有三種"},{"start":2536.929,"end":2558.196,"text":"經費來源在保久乳的部分每坪14元,鮮乳因為運送需要由冷鏈設施所以再加2元,所以在鮮乳的部分是每坪16元。113年所需要的經費由行政院核定本部養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫向下支應7.1億元,114年起就由本部及教育部共同來分擔。"},{"start":2559.076,"end":2585.566,"text":"那目前辦理的情形大概可分三個面向跟各位委員報告第一個是公共供應企業的採購的部分在8月12號起供國產鮮乳、國產寶酒乳及國產涵蓋豆奶的公共供應企業的採購那其中呢國產鮮乳跟國產的寶酒乳分別在113年9月9號、9月12日就依照這個評選的方式有評選出可以供應的廠商那並於在9月23號已經把這個"},{"start":2589.151,"end":2605.258,"text":"結果在公共工程委員會的公共供應契約平台已經上網所以可以供各縣市政府來採購至於涵蓋豆漿的部分因為市面上的生產廠家比較少目前正在辦理採購程序預計在10月底前可以全面供應"},{"start":2606.847,"end":2631.646,"text":"二、召開說明會：除了本部及教育部的協作之外：在7月31日有就縣市政府召開研商會議,收集各縣市政府對於執行這項計畫所需要的一些基本元素及建議。在9月24日確定得標廠商後,再一次由行政院的食安辦邀請本部、教育部及各縣市政府再次召集地方的說明會,希望整體推動能更順利。"},{"start":2633.307,"end":2660.814,"text":"第三、舊供應品項及目前供應狀況供應品項部分國產鮮乳得標廠商有3家可以供應4個品牌詳細請看書面報告國產薄酒乳部分有4家得標其中有可以供應5個品牌細節請各位參與報告國產豆漿部分目前尚未決標但不管怎樣得標品項確實要符合我們能夠提供足夠的鈣含量品質必須相當於乳品的"},{"start":2661.374,"end":2678.341,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行"},{"start":2687.265,"end":2708.544,"text":"先如必須要有冷藏冷鏈的設備能夠補充所以在公共供應契約也已經要求至於不只是在全程冷鏈運送他也要提供保冷袋他可以保冷兩小時的部分提供給學校來做比較好的一個運送那詳細資料也請看書面那我想結語是說這個專案是對於確保學童飲用國產的優質乳品及足夠蓋設取量"},{"start":2713.248,"end":2730.718,"text":"一則也是希望能夠提升對於我們國產乳品的使用率希望學童能夠享用到最新鮮的國產乳品那也希望透過這樣子消費端的拉抬讓我們的乳牛產業更健全也符合本部推動食農教育的目標請大院的委員可以支持謝謝"},{"start":2736.089,"end":2736.55,"text":"報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":2756.25,"end":2779.496,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天應邀就中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向進行專案報告致感榮幸臺灣位處地震活動頻繁的環太平洋地震帶為維護師生安全中央自1998年起以各項裁員協助高中以下學校加速改善校舍耐震能力"},{"start":2780.396,"end":2804.792,"text":"以下僅就近年校舍耐震補強主要計畫編列情形,簡要說明如下第一項是九八至一百年度加速高中及國中老校舍及相關設備補強整建計畫主要是系統性的推動88年以前新建之國中小耐震能力出品、詳評以及補強或重建作業經行政院核定"},{"start":2805.672,"end":2827.756,"text":"以特別預算加速辦理由教育部編列373億元第二項是101至105年國中小校舍耐震能力評估補強及設施設備改善計畫是依據前項計畫辦理出評及詳評結果就耐震能力指標分數較低之校舍優先進行補強改善由教育部編列100億元"},{"start":2832.677,"end":2861.236,"text":"第三項是106-108年公立國中小校舍耐震能力及設施設備改善計畫是持續就上有安全疑慮之校舍辦理補強由教育部編列176億元持續再辦理第四項是109-111年度的公立高級中等以下學校耐震能力改善計畫是為完成校舍耐震能力改善的最後一塊拼圖由教育部編列63億元"},{"start":2863.117,"end":2872.342,"text":"又就教育部說明本計畫結束後現行高中以下學校則校舍均符合內政部相關的耐震物、耐震建築的設計規範"},{"start":2874.95,"end":2892.36,"text":"此外,為此各地方政府對於獲配的一般性補助款運用與中央的施政項目能夠相互配合,歷年均將國中小老舊校舍經費納入一般性補助款的指定項目辦理。其中近五年度分別編列了32億元、30億元、21億元、34億元及27億元。"},{"start":2901.224,"end":2928.54,"text":"以上數額均由各地方政府依實際需要自行提出再由教育部中央的主管機關教育部來做審核以及輔導核定後來做辦理以上計畫的各項經費在98至114年度已編列超逾1000億元此外教育部考量目前遞墊頻繁因此針對五零達40年以上的校舍又數量龐大因此"},{"start":2929.58,"end":2945.636,"text":"為了加速辦理老舊校舍的整建,已經另外提出了公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除總監計劃,課由國發會審議中本董處後續也會配合行政院的核定情形,辦理相關的裁員籌措事宜。"},{"start":2952.154,"end":2952.335,"text":"報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":2970.384,"end":2992.79,"text":"主席、各位委員先進感謝各位委員會邀請本會議列席本次會議緊究中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向提出報告的自感榮幸敬請各位委員不吝賜教中小學老舊校舍補強、整建等有助於提升校舍安全有其必要"},{"start":2994.052,"end":3015.754,"text":"教育部在113年8月8日函報行政院之公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫針對耐久性疑慮較高且汙齡達40年以上未補強及雖已補強但有慮離子偏高情形之校舍辦理拆除、重建整地工程"},{"start":3018.473,"end":3038.394,"text":"計畫經費350億元,經行政院秘書長8月9日交易本會本會會同相關主管機關審議,審議內容略以建請教育部仍因依規秘書長113年7月8日函氏辦理所需經費已回歸地方政府自主辦理"},{"start":3038.914,"end":3061.516,"text":"若有補助之需要﹐請由教育部各該年度教育經費內檢討編列﹐堂有不足﹐請洽本院主計總處協處本會終整會審機關意見﹐以回覆行政院秘書長﹐尊重院的決策﹐本案將依院核付結果辦理以上報告 敬請各位委員執交 謝謝"},{"start":3067.005,"end":3074.05,"text":"謝謝彭副主委口頭的報告我們現在開始進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分"},{"start":3084.117,"end":3107.85,"text":"委員若有臨時提案,請於上午10點30分前提出,並與本會委員吳春成委員質詢結束後,及進行處理。處理提案時,若提案委員及連署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。好,現在我們首先先請發言登記第一位,林倩琦委員質詢。"},{"start":3119.797,"end":3138.514,"text":"主席、還有我們立委同仁還有各部會的夥伴們大家早安、大家好非常感謝主席今天設定了這樣一個題目有關於這個班班有鮮奶的這樣一個準備計畫的一個瞭解跟未來執行的一個狀況"},{"start":3141.056,"end":3158.424,"text":"還有這個有關於校舍我想這個都對於我們在整個教育層面上非常的重要所以在有關於班班有鮮乳的這一件事情本席因為在7月11號然後看到有報載而且在整個教文的這個版面呢有一整系列的一個報導"},{"start":3159.204,"end":3180.085,"text":"那七月中呢其實是我們在準備開學的一個時間但是它基本上是暑假所以我就非常密切的關心這一件事那也很感謝今天有這個機會來更深度了解這裡面所談的我們其實還有在準備的部分在開學的狀況跟未來要執行的一個情形所以"},{"start":3182.708,"end":3209.765,"text":"在開學前我一直聽到有一個狀況就是這樣一個班班有鮮乳的政策那大家目前準備好的就是班班有調酒乳飽酒乳那這個飽酒乳這個部分依照今天這個相關部會準備的資料不知道我是不是現在可以請我們教育部長跟農業部今天是次長我們一起來探討這個問題好不好我們有請鄭部長還有我們杜次長"},{"start":3213.895,"end":3232.08,"text":"部長,在你們的報告裏面談到目前你們供應的有關於牛奶大概是百分之二十點七六那薄酒乳是七十五點七七percent然後這個高鈣的豆乳大概有這個涵鈣的豆乳三點四percent左右那你們知道這個數據怎麼來的嗎?"},{"start":3235.867,"end":3248.775,"text":"跟委員報告,這是7月22日這個調查來的,跟各地方政府調查。各地方政府送上來的嗎?是。那我想請問一下,布裡面是不是有那個乳糖不賴症在台灣大概有多少比例?"},{"start":3252.651,"end":3259.918,"text":"你們這邊列的那個乳糖不帶症報上來有3.4可是實際情形是這樣嗎?你們檢視的這個狀況是這是各校各地方政府報上來的嗎?"},{"start":3268.806,"end":3297.586,"text":"那你確定我們所有有關於食品有關於乳品的需求是這樣子的條件嗎這是各地方政府報上來那在七月份你們讓各地方政府報上來那七月是暑假齁然後這個需求你們確定所有的比例是這樣子嗎這個比例問題我給部裡面一個建議啦乳糖不耐症到底在台灣有學童裡面比例真正是佔多少不是說地方政府報上來喔而是"},{"start":3299.011,"end":3322.013,"text":"我直接講一個建議啦我們在施政的時候經常都是主管單位的方便性然後我們就叫相關的單位來配合所以我想確定的是這個數據是準的嗎有沒有可能因為第一你們要地方政府報上來那中間這裡面其實談到冷鏈的問題談到牛奶還有包酒乳"},{"start":3323.274,"end":3347.719,"text":"如何保藏的這個問題它有沒有可能造成大家在這個過程當中一個方便性因為你們在暑假期間教大家做這件事情那在開學的一個因應跟準備上大家來不來得及做所以它是報上來的數據它是真正的數據嗎?我們在母唐不賴鎮在台灣的數據有多少?依據我查了相關的研究在亞洲地區大概有60%"},{"start":3350.12,"end":3359.366,"text":"所以要不要查一下那所以我來接下來來問一下請問我們這個政策目標是什麼?教育部的部分跟農業部的部分我都想聽一下"},{"start":3361.09,"end":3380.121,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心也謝謝委員的提醒因為確實我們其實根據一些相關的研究就發現兒童的一個成長過程裡邊對鈣的一個補充以及蛋白質的一個補充是關係到兒童的是否能夠健康的一個發展所以"},{"start":3381.081,"end":3407.318,"text":"教育部跟農業部我們其實念茲在茲就是怎麼樣讓學童更健康嘛對不對是是是好的那我可以這邊請教一下那個農業部次長那請問您知道那個鈣的補充成分有哪一些嗎來源其實鈣的來源乳、蛋、肉其實都有但是鮮乳是最方便的因為一份的鮮乳大概可以補充一天所需要是應該畢業蔬菜也有這個可能性"},{"start":3408.138,"end":3431.748,"text":"所以你們的政策目標是不是教育部跟農業部也是一樣嗎?農業部你們的政策目標是什麼?當然是希望我們的學童能夠有得到更多的營養。希望學童更健康嘛。是的。那我想了解一下,所以在我們這個希望學童更健康的政策概念下,那農業部你們跟這個什麼乳牛產業的這個升級計畫跟這個這件事情的關係是什麼?你們用的經費是哪邊來的?"},{"start":3432.668,"end":3454.978,"text":"因為這樣子 如果能夠提升第一個 剛剛委員提到的就是說蓋的來源當然有很多種但是鮮乳是最方便的一份鮮奶就可以提供我們一天所需要大概50%的蓋量是 好 那這個部分我想請教一下你們編列了這麼多的預算那應該在今年就執行的為什麼到7月份的時候還有這麼多學校還不知道相關的配套"},{"start":3456.394,"end":3482.805,"text":"那在暑假期間我們來得及做好整體比較詳盡的準備嗎?所以在開學的時候其實還有各校牛奶喝不到那偏遠地區更是大家為什麼會有這麼高的比例選擇包酒爐呢?應該是它比較好放吧?那更細節的是當我們有這樣一個政策那相關的配套那請問那這個配套是不是大家都能夠符合?尤其是偏鄉地區"},{"start":3486.4,"end":3515.02,"text":"相關的設施、相關的人力、路程等等那我想請教一下這個配套準備好了嗎?謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們在這一學期裡面我們也起心動念就是希望說讓學童有一個更健康的一個發展那我們也期待說透過這樣的因為這樣的一個鮮乳品的一些提供確實在許多的這些各縣市"},{"start":3515.82,"end":3542.939,"text":"他這個區域跟城鄉的一些差距我們其實也希望透過這一學期的一個這樣一個推動裡面去了解各縣市的一些樣態然後作為我們政策能夠更精進的一些做這樣的一個調整跟地方來合作那委員的一個關心也正是我們所想要更進一步更精進的一個希望在未來在政策的推動"},{"start":3543.519,"end":3546.302,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":3558.496,"end":3577.484,"text":"你們有這三種那這個比例真的如同填上來的嗎還是因為大家要因應教育部的政策所以填了這麼多的填了這樣一個差距很大的比例所以我建議部裡面應該把有沒有乳糖不耐症而且學童是不是每個人都適合這樣子一個政策先去做一下調查評估"},{"start":3579.565,"end":3607.117,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這個部分乳糖不耐症這個部分我想我們會更進一步的確實在整個政策裡面的作用怎麼樣讓它更精準實質的比例跟你們政策的那個目標謝謝委員的一個提醒這我們會來我們會再進一步來瞭解好的謝謝那接下來我想問一下這個農業部那請問那個你們的這個班班有鮮乳跟紐西蘭牛乳進口的零關稅的這個相互關係是什麼"},{"start":3608.636,"end":3624,"text":"我想應該是這樣子其實我們希望第一個就是讓我們的學童有足夠的蓋設取量因為目前是遠遠不及你很關心這個學童的蓋設取量所以我們只針對推動是國產鮮乳的飲用我們希望是推動國產鮮乳的飲用讓達到營養的價值第二個但是對我們國內糯農產業也是有實質幫助"},{"start":3629.582,"end":3644.015,"text":"好的,我要這邊做個提醒我們的政策應該因應整個環境所以農業部我們在過去那個這個班班有石斑然後是因為石斑魚的狀況我們知道那時候我們所遭遇到的困難"},{"start":3644.756,"end":3645.737,"text":"中小學老舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":3667.375,"end":3668.276,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":3697.735,"end":3698.816,"text":"謝謝林倩琴委員有請官員先回座"},{"start":3727.976,"end":3755.788,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員來,麻煩請鄭部長跟農業部常次長,杜常次好,有請鄭部長還有杜次長來,鄭部長,剛聽您回答這個林委員的講法說還要再滾動檢討事實看學校的反應來做調整"},{"start":3756.994,"end":3766.44,"text":"那不就是坐實了大家外界講說班班有鮮乳這個政策倉促上路嗎報導也講啊倉促上路然後讓大家"},{"start":3768.457,"end":3786.742,"text":"採購價低於行情又缺乏冷鏈讓所有的老師變成是要幫學生來抬鮮奶然後如果說這個鮮奶沒有到10點10分大下課的時候送到的話還要學校各自去買冷鏈、冷藏設備那不就是學校又要再增加相關的負擔中央這邊要來支應學校嗎?鄭部長"},{"start":3793.867,"end":3818.047,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒我們確實我們當時這一個跟農業部的合作就是我們在乎的就是希望能夠給學童有一個更好的一個發展我們都希望我身為家長我也希望給學童更好的營養但更重要是完善的營養以及後續的配套措施都市的孩子跟偏鄉的孩子都一樣的照顧"},{"start":3819.068,"end":3831.838,"text":"那你這樣子半年後你剛剛回答你自己已經承認了嘛我們要之後再來滾動檢討為什麼開學三個禮拜了還有很多的學生沒有喝到鮮奶那不就代表是說這政策是倉促上路嗎部長回答不出來要農業部來救駕"},{"start":3839.124,"end":3866.341,"text":"來,那我再請教一下今天部長為什麼沒有來?農業部部長我們部長去勘栽先勘,哪邊勘栽?有請假是不是?有請假有請假為什麼會特別這樣講?在教育部的官方網站上面農業部跟教育部給家長的一封信農業部部長還在教育部部長之上換言之這個政策到底是農業部還是教育部主推?鄭部長,要不要回答一下?"},{"start":3868.867,"end":3887.059,"text":"謝謝委員關心事實上應該是這麼講的這個整個國家的一些政策我們怎麼來看到一個跨部會共同為學童的一個健康的一個發展提供一個更好的環境那我也感謝委員的一個提醒因為我們在"},{"start":3888.496,"end":3889.297,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3912.359,"end":3940.149,"text":"這一個學童在使用所以也跟委員利用這個機會讓委員知道就是說我們為什麼說在整個希望全國的這個學童的一個健康能夠受到照顧也能夠跟地方有更緊密的這些對整個政策的一個推動跟健康照顧裡邊有一個滾動式怎麼樣跟地方合作然後能夠讓學童有更好的一個發展部長你剛講我都知道啊但你還是沒有回答到我的問題啊"},{"start":3941.704,"end":3964.381,"text":"我刻意給你時間回答可是沒有辦法回答現在75%的學校舍棄鮮奶選擇保酒爐為什麼?就是因為保存不容易嘛沒有辦法很一致性的送達嘛有沒有看到所有的老師也在反應是說如果說10點10分大下課沒有辦法送到學校的話那就變成是說至少要放在學校統一集中保管一個角落"},{"start":3964.941,"end":3979.268,"text":"那可能要等到11點之後才能分配到給學生甚至營養午餐的時候那中間從10點10分到12點那不就是還要再做保存嗎那保存責任在誰那?就在學校身上所以學校就要再採購冷藏設備是不是這樣子?"},{"start":3980.428,"end":4000.092,"text":"這些不是都是問題嗎?定價過低也是一個部分現在傳出來說寶酒乳每瓶14塊、鮮奶每瓶16元很多人也會反應是說那這樣子定價真的太低可能成本都不符合那未來你們的計畫本席看到你們今天的一個預算也是7億多所以說並沒有增加多少"},{"start":4001.84,"end":4011.856,"text":"最後本期今天跟我們的召委也有提出一個想法我想這一個可能也要請我們部長來去做思考我們看到全偏鄉其實現在台灣最優勢是什麼"},{"start":4013.234,"end":4040.815,"text":"有便利商店通路很厲害嘛山上也有便利商店海邊也有便利商店那其實它的比例比偏鄉可能都還要高那如果說在有些偏鄉真的它很難送達我們自己還要再派冷鏈車等去送達不容易的話有沒有可能研議用所謂的鮮乳匯換券讓學校老師就近在偏鄉的超市或者是這個市場、超商來去做匯換"},{"start":4042.281,"end":4069.562,"text":"能不能這樣子來演繹未來檢討的方向謝謝委員的提醒事實上因為我們在這一個政策的一個推動我們也跟地方政府確實有保持了一定的這一個互動所以也跟委員報告這也是說我們希望在整個政策的執行有更均勻剛才委員所提的也是我們內部裡邊來自於各地方反映包括學校你也聽到很多地方反映嘛對不對"},{"start":4071.043,"end":4079.765,"text":"納入我們在未來可能的一個滾動式修正的一個方案之一已經開學一個月了,什麼時候我們全台的學生都可以喝到鮮奶?目前跟委員報告,我們大概已經完成採購的有10個...沒關係,你只要告訴國人時間點嘛,11月底前、12月底,能不能?"},{"start":4094.273,"end":4122.392,"text":"總是要確認這政策上路一個多月今天不是學校現在才成立其實部長為什麼本席會那麼關心還有為什麼會質疑你說在滾動檢討學校不是一天出現的學校早就在那邊今天是農業部為了說紐西蘭的這個鮮奶要進口所以說要照顧弱農我想支持本土產業沒有意見但重點是你們提出政策半年了你們應該想好相關的配套"},{"start":4124.116,"end":4133.246,"text":"本席現在只想問全國人民想知道今年這個學期什麼時候全台灣的學生能夠享受到班班有鮮乳或是班班有保舊乳"},{"start":4135.552,"end":4135.572,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":4158.639,"end":4185.501,"text":"沒關係,等一下我們稍微一定還有這個問題我覺得這個態度稍微很難接受啦來,農業部我先請教一下灌水牛怎麼會發生這樣子的一個狀況而且更重要的是上禮拜突然出現灌水牛的這樣的一個新聞還是我們的房檢署的獸醫發現結果房檢署居然表示說這個灌水牛沒有問題把內臟拿掉之後肉品還是可以進入市場"},{"start":4187.016,"end":4213.296,"text":"報告委員這應該是有兩個層次的問題第一個我們在全國13家牛的屠宰場其實都有裝設錄影設備那房檢署是每個禮拜都要把這些錄影設備全部再開放雖然當場都有圖檢獸醫師在場但是就怕有漏網所以他們是每個禮拜都會把這些錄影再拿來看如果發現違法的狀況就會回追那我想請教上禮拜發生這個是在桃園地區的一個屠宰場對不對"},{"start":4214.557,"end":4234.906,"text":"有灌水牛的事件有民眾就講是說他硬生生在40秒內被灌入了30公斤的水他可能是灌80公斤但是他最後增加的是30公斤也因此他的不法暴利一隻牛如果說以他整個這樣子來算的話他一年可能不法暴利可以獲得近千萬"},{"start":4237.079,"end":4252.51,"text":"你剛剛也提到了就是說我們都有監視器沒有錯所以說我們有看到新聞畫面有看到畫面但本席更想問的全國人民更想關心的那這是第一案嗎他這一家屠宰場已經多久用這樣子非法的行為了"},{"start":4253.544,"end":4276.074,"text":"有沒有去了解應該這樣說這件事情是違反兩個法號第一個是違反動物福利法因為這是違反動物福利的事情這絕對不允許所以第一個要開法是違反動物福利法第二件事是它也違反屠宰作業準則因為牛隻就是不應該被這樣子灌水去不管任何目的增加重量還是更多的所以本席現在問的是這一家廠商過去有沒有不良紀錄"},{"start":4278.967,"end":4288.414,"text":"如果有查到的一定都會發過去他這樣子進行這樣的狀況因為我們看那個員工以及看那個畫面其實他是很駕輕就熟的"},{"start":4289.727,"end":4314.416,"text":"所以你很難讓人家相信是說他上個禮拜發生的是第一起喔他可能過去已經用這樣的一個手法已經獲得許多不法暴力了那我們要問的是說既然有裝監視器那為什麼可以你剛剛也親口承認每個禮拜都會去檢查監視器的畫面但沒有想到到上個禮拜才發現那代表過去有多少頭牛隻已經被不法的手段灌進了水"},{"start":4315.496,"end":4343.784,"text":"這個部分其實桃園市政府正在調查因爲整個案子是已給桃園市政府什麼時候可以出來調查報告我們也很關心因爲我們覺得這樣子的事情是不能容許那其他的12個縣市的12個屠宰場12個屠宰場全台13個只有這一個那其他屠宰場有沒有再去做一個釐清一定都要清查一定都要什麼時候做了因爲每個禮拜都有看那個錄影帶你剛也講了啊就說每個禮拜都有做但是很明顯的13分之1的這一家屠宰場就在你們的眼皮底下發生了這種灌水事件啊"},{"start":4345.219,"end":4368.438,"text":"我想這個需要再精進就是說第一個就是錄影機設置的位置有沒有需要再做...市長能不能在今天下班前告訴本席也讓國人知道是說我們農業部針對上個禮拜其實已經三天的時間過去了到底做了什麼樣的作為那還有就全台灣13家拖延廠是不是有類似的情況是不是做個釐清好 違反作為準則已經開罰了那桃園市政府那邊我們會繼續追進謝謝好 部長 來鄭部長"},{"start":4371.781,"end":4396.873,"text":"最後一個問題一分鐘我想今天很重要還是耐震補強的部分我們覺得耐震補強當然應該做尤其是關心到學童的一個安全那更重要的是到底提出來的這個計畫有沒有能夠含瓜到全部因為我們現在看到全台灣光50年以上的老舊校舍以新北市來講就有差不多200棟"},{"start":4398.843,"end":4417.265,"text":"你這邊有算喔還要再跟行政院爭取350億的一個預算要推動319棟的整建是重建200棟跟整地119棟那隔光新北市其實就已經200多棟啊所以換言之全台灣到底有多少50年以上的老舊校舍2200棟左右對不對"},{"start":4420.401,"end":4445.602,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去從98年到111年這裡面投入了1300多億主要就是解決這一個921大地震當時我們等於說教育部有全面普查老舊教室有涉及到必須要耐震補強或者必須要拆除的那為什麼跟委員補充這一個數據就是說因為這一個"},{"start":4449.461,"end":4475.911,"text":"這個普查以後經過初期的評估跟專家的負評以後總共這個期間總共除了改善這個補強跟這個拆建有8788棟這裡邊就是第一個階段在921大地震之前所蓋的學校部長能不能針對本席的問題回答問題這包含全國2000棟以上部長我可不可以請教一下您到底有沒有經看過這樣的一個數字"},{"start":4477.452,"end":4482.256,"text":"本席提一個荒謬點就好啦98年到111年是幾年14年14年裡面1315億聽起來很多但你總共做了多少6691棟跟2097棟平均一棟多少錢"},{"start":4497.903,"end":4516.629,"text":"一千四百萬而一百一十二年到一百一十四年八十二點三億補強幾棟六四棟拆除幾棟八十八棟平均一棟多少錢五千四百萬而接下來你們要再做什麼要再做三百五十億要補強多少"},{"start":4517.796,"end":4546.273,"text":"要補強200棟跟拆除190棟平均一棟多少錢?1.1億換言之你的成本其實持續在增加所以本席今天要跟你探究的是看未來不是講過去過去歷任政府大家都在做我們也共同支持但我們希望的是未來要提出相關的計畫做長遠的判斷尤其是超過50年以上的老舊校舍應該做一個系統性的計畫性的來去做整體的考量"},{"start":4546.893,"end":4573.922,"text":"這樣可以嗎?跟委員報告,謝謝委員的一個提醒但是我要跟委員報告的是50年以上如果他沒有安全上的顧慮事實上他可能事實上是對學生、校友是有一個共通的學習經驗性謝謝抱歉對不起喔,你們是不是可以尊重一下主席啊麻煩一下好不好,那個備詢尊重一下主席好嗎?"},{"start":4576.614,"end":4596.981,"text":"我們請剛才洪孟凱委員所問的事情,那部長會後,因為我們時間已經超過了,能不能用書面仔仔細細、詳詳細細地去回答洪孟凱委員,好不好?那不然等一下,如果我們至此的時候,請部長要稍微把時間掌控一下。以上,謝謝。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":4601.994,"end":4628.545,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長跟農業部次長 謝謝好 有請鄭部長跟我們杜次長好 部長、次長辛苦了我想今天很多人都要談論班班有鮮奶但是我覺得我想要回到最根本的源頭我們當時之所以要做這個事情其實有一個很重要的原因其實就教育部的角色是希望提供學童營養的部分 對不對部長這個部分我的論述對嗎"},{"start":4631.106,"end":4659.343,"text":"謝謝部長就農業部的角色我想支持國產先入始終我想不管是任何的農產品絕對是我們農業部最重要的工作對嗎?是的那如果在這兩個命題底下必須要促成跨部會的合作甚至還有在你們的業務報告裡面有提到實案辦公室甚至是拉到行政院的高度來看也就是說我相信從整個行政院到教育部或者是農業部都非常支持相關的政策而且在相關的預算上應該也給予支持"},{"start":4660.143,"end":4681.018,"text":"根據剛剛兩位所說的一些數字我們可以看到就營養支持的角度確實全民不是只有學童我要提醒一下是不是其實全民都有蓋社區不足的問題而且不管男性跟女性甚至男性的比例更高高達40%到60%這個部分我想教育部跟農業部也都非常清楚所以在這個背景底下我們再往下看"},{"start":4682.699,"end":4694.425,"text":"應該還有參考全世界其他國家的相關政策,包含英國、美國、歐洲、日本、加拿大早就有行之多年的學童乳日這件事情,這個部分我的理解是對的嗎?部長。"},{"start":4697.288,"end":4717.706,"text":"公務員報告是的好那如果其他國家都有做過類似的事情然後再加上我們剛剛說相關政策的背景第三個背景我想要來請問兩位就是其實學童乳這件事情應該如果全台灣也不是我們單獨提出這個論述但是在這個論述的政策推動下"},{"start":4718.386,"end":4746.627,"text":"會有非常多人有角色我想要請問一下兩位我認為哪些人有角色呢?第一個,酪農一定有角色,對嗎?再來,學校的老師有角色家長有角色孩子們有角色還有儒品廠商有角色,對嗎?在這麼多角色共同要支持這個政策協助這個政策推動下我相信有非常多的討論會議在進行所以我在你們的業務報告裡面看到你們提到非常非常多你們開了很多會"},{"start":4747.648,"end":4764.212,"text":"也討論了很多事情那如同很多媒體所披露的或者是剛剛所有委員所問的我想我們是不是就務實的來面對一些問題好不好好 第一個問題有人說舊酪農去化還有去化牛奶所以我們推班班有鮮乳可是我們跟農業部討論相關的數字我想要問次長我所知道對不對"},{"start":4767.893,"end":4785.22,"text":"其實以目前我們一周供應兩次國產乳品不管它是鮮乳或是做成薄酒乳其實也只佔國產牛乳產量的4%甚至不到5%所以對於外界所謂去化所謂要學校消化這件事情其實論述是有問題的,對嗎?"},{"start":4787.702,"end":4810.214,"text":"國產鮮乳絕對足夠提供給我們學童使用所以不會有去化的問題可是我甚至聽到有的縣市政府他們過往確實有提供學童鮮乳在沒有這個政策之前可是因為有這個政策是不是有一些縣市開始蠢蠢欲動想要取消原有的鮮乳那會不會擠壓了我們這個原本政策的福利的想像"},{"start":4810.888,"end":4839.758,"text":"我想就借用剛才委員的資料啦因為就我們全國的這個蓋的收取量其實遠遠遠遠低於標準量即便現在一週供應兩次其實還是遠遠低於所需要的學童營養量所以真的是誠心第一個是感謝各縣市其實在以往沒有這個政策之前其實也有提供那請千萬不要因為有這個政策而把原來的取消掉因為國產鮮乳需要大家支持第二個國產鮮乳是可以提供學童必要的營養"},{"start":4840.438,"end":4861.886,"text":"好 謝謝次長跟我們一起面對這個問題如同你說的你已經誠心的拜託各縣市政府不要取消那是不是有機會我們在後續可以持續跟各縣市政府溝通不要取消原來的鮮乳那這個部分農業部可不可以再給委員會教育文化委員會所有委員一個進度報告如何去跟縣市政府溝通不要取消原有的鮮乳再加碼繼續進訓下去好 我們很樂意"},{"start":4864.167,"end":4878.852,"text":"好 那我們辦公室也會積極追蹤這個議題我相信這件事情非常非常的重要因為可能不是被寫在媒體上但是確實是已經發生在現場的問題那我這裡也要呼籲各縣市政府請積極地在支持國產先入的角度上不要取消原有的先入再來"},{"start":4879.472,"end":4901.133,"text":"有開始有人問,其實剛剛也有委員問到關於飽酒乳跟鮮乳的問題就我們問了很多營養師,其實飽酒乳跟鮮乳的營養產值是沒有問題的可是,可是我剛剛已經說了,站在不同的角度,站在落農的角度當然會希望學童們可以喝鮮乳站在家長的角度或是站在喜歡喝冰冰涼涼鮮乳的小孩的角度,他們也想要喝鮮乳"},{"start":4901.693,"end":4921,"text":"可是我們不得不產生保酒乳這個事情我相信絕對是因為有選擇的問題、配送的問題、保存的問題可是保酒乳它確實也已經存在市面上很久了那關於鮮乳跟保酒乳的選用這個議題我是不是可以留些時間給部長或是次長回應一下消除國人的疑慮好不好"},{"start":4924.703,"end":4951.422,"text":"因為其實是我們可以提供在現在在公共工程網站上面的採購契約一共有兩種鮮乳也可以、保久乳也可以所以要如何選購或是如何選擇其實在各縣市或在各學校有不同的考量那對我們來講我們就提供各種可能的選擇不管要採購鮮乳也好、國產的保久乳也好我們都有提供這樣子的選項給各縣市跟給各學校那就依照他們的需求來採購"},{"start":4952.543,"end":4982.046,"text":"那遵照需求的部分剛剛也有委員也就是林千祺委員一直在提到說是學校在7月的時候收到資料統計但是我也有聽到開始有縣市政府說7月的時候是這樣把資料交出來可是可能他們到了10月、到了11月的時候可能孩子們的選擇或是家長們的建議可能又會把原本的訂購從包舊乳改成鮮乳甚至是把鮮乳改成包舊乳甚至還有涵蓋豆漿的部分那關於縣市政府在跟農業部跟教育部的溝通你們覺得目前遇到最大的困境到底是什麼"},{"start":4982.446,"end":4996.076,"text":"因為我們甚至也有聽到某些縣市政府他們是甚至直接要求學校你們自己去下單我們不幫你們處理那這樣子難道不會造成學校的困擾嗎那教育部跟農業部在跟縣市政府溝通目前遇到比較大的困境比較會是什麼"},{"start":5000.595,"end":5029.956,"text":"跟委員報告這主要是涉及到這一個共同供應企業上的一些那當然這也是我剛才有其他委員裡面特別提到說我們也希望有一些更精進的滾動式的一些修正因為確實各縣市在這一個上這個共同供應企業的平台裡面去下單然後到這個招標然後完成所有的手續我想這個部分我們也一直在這個請求這個地方政府啊"},{"start":5030.336,"end":5030.376,"text":"主席"},{"start":5061.617,"end":5076.424,"text":"是的,跟委員報告,確實那是我們努力的一個目標。我們希望這個政策,所有的聯環美誼到最後真正能夠加匯,能夠讓我們所有的受教的這些學童能夠有一個更好的一個健康的一個發展。"},{"start":5076.744,"end":5097.912,"text":"那最後我想要問一下有沒有可能擴及到有人在提有沒有擴及到幼兒園或國中但是因為目前還有很多問題需要調整跟討論所以是不是這個問題我們之後再跟部裡面或是跟農業部討論有沒有可能擴及到更多對象在照顧到營養跟支持國產鮮乳的論述前提底下我們去打討這個目標好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":5099.753,"end":5116.459,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員 請部長先回座主席在這邊補充說明一下我想今天排那個專案報告因為跟剛剛開學跟我們學生的權益很有關係不管是老舊校舍或是班班有鮮奶陳部長因為他颱風灘災所以去中南部我想現在農損相關的問題也蠻嚴重的所以他有跟本席請假所以今天由次長來代"},{"start":5127.082,"end":5145.799,"text":"那這邊跟各位這個委員來補充說明 以上好 那接下來有請萬美玲、張維 謝謝好 謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長還有我們杜次長好 有請部長跟次長 謝謝"},{"start":5154.895,"end":5183.224,"text":"好 次長早部長次長早那我想那個部長我們這個班班有鮮奶這個政策事實上很清楚我想剛剛那個培育委員有講到一個說我們這個班班有鮮奶是想要去化這個就有沒有可能就去化什麼這個我們國產鮮奶等等什麼的但我想應該不是因為農業部很清楚你是為了因應台灣跟紐西蘭經濟合作協定那明年要上路"},{"start":5183.624,"end":5211.692,"text":"那恐怕這也是會對我們的本土弱農業有衝擊我們希望減輕一點那個衝擊所以我們提出了這個班班有鮮奶的一個政策那但是呢我想今天為什麼我這麼慎重還做了手板來我們現在說班班有鮮奶對不對然後再來呢我們現在後來變成什麼了班班有薄酒乳對不對好可是現在是什麼現在是呢不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳我們現在變成班班在等待"},{"start":5213.302,"end":5216.123,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」"},{"start":5228.43,"end":5228.99,"text":"直至10月1日開始起"},{"start":5259.192,"end":5264.747,"text":"跟委員報告確實在9月底之前是這一個數字那10月1號有嘉義"},{"start":5266.229,"end":5293.331,"text":"這一個加上10月4號的...有超過4成了嗎?宜蘭已經有9所縣市那應該會有4成好,我想我剛剛還有粗估幫你統計一下我想應該還是4成不到但是呢,我們原來啊這個政策就是講得很清楚嘛也就是說我們要讓我們的學童一週兩次喝鮮奶那可見現在其實它就是一個政策跳票"},{"start":5294.252,"end":5311.912,"text":"那我們不管是在這個豆漿因為我們知道有些孩子他不能夠喝鮮奶或者是剛剛說的乳糖不耐症無乳糖的鮮奶那這個標案分別都留標兩到三次還要到10月8號才能夠再開標萬一開標不順利我想教育部應該也很頭大那後面要怎麼辦這個備案出來了嗎"},{"start":5316.48,"end":5345.468,"text":"報告召委,先要謝謝召委這個既支持學童乳的政策我們答重點希望學生有鮮奶那在農業部的立場當然是照顧國產鮮奶但是這個次長請你下去那個部長如果我剛剛講的如果說今天我們豆漿跟這個無乳糖的鮮奶繼續流標那換言之就是說以我現在的數據大概我們還有十幾個縣市的學生以及我們訂豆漿和無乳糖鮮奶的孩子到時候只能看別人喝鮮奶那他"},{"start":5346.109,"end":5346.37,"text":"該怎麼辦?部長有對策嗎?"},{"start":5350.888,"end":5375.497,"text":"如果沒有沒關係,我覺得你說的沒有,我們都可以來討論,目前有嗎?跟委員報告,就是說我們這一個,不管各地方政府到最後什麼時候結標,我們那一個所提供的量一定會把它補足,大概目前...好,我跟你講,這就跟你當初那個班班有十班一樣,然後呢,本來說好的要有十班師,結果呢,沒有,一直跳一跳跳跳跳,到最後呢,一個禮拜叫他吃四天十班。部長,你可能不知道這個狀況啊?"},{"start":5377.267,"end":5391.126,"text":"你不能這樣子啊不能夠這樣子就是說我們最後沒關係嘛一天給你兩瓶讓你補完就好了不是這樣子的我覺得要有一個政策出來好 那我們再來看今天所提到的不管是在之前我就有提醒教育部這個政策是農業部出來的"},{"start":5392.447,"end":5413.755,"text":"說真的啦,我們教育部太多事情要辦了那我們今天在配合農業部的政策能對孩子好,我們也願意嘛但是部長,你有沒有想過啊我想大家也都是從這個學校,對學校也都很了解我們今天如果沒有冷鏈、沒有冷藏到底哪一個學校有這麼多的冰箱可以去冰這些鮮奶或者是去存放這個保酒乳喔你們知道嗎,現在啊我們就連保酒乳的供應量都非常的不足啊"},{"start":5419.017,"end":5424.52,"text":"國內的所有的大廠的保酒乳目前量通通不夠一個禮拜大概只夠一次這個您知道嗎?您知道嗎?根文報告我大概知道大概知道不是那麼準確的知道基本上大概有這樣的一個現象沒有這是確定的啊現在是不夠的連保酒乳都不夠那麼一週就只能一次這又再一次去跳票啦對不對好"},{"start":5443.968,"end":5451.774,"text":"那再來勒,不但是我們亮跳票我們看到,您剛提到這個共同供應契約啊我們現在變得運算是鮮奶16塊嘛,然後保九五14塊那這一些呢,其實就已經非常低了然後呢,我們這個貨運的這個運送然後到了學校的人力,您知道嗎現在因為沒有貨運運送的這個成本的這個經費在裡面那所以呢,我們打算一個月送一次去我不要講別的"},{"start":5469.727,"end":5489.105,"text":"以本席選區內全桃園市最大的中三國小你一次就要給我送一千箱去啊我還要找教室給你放啊我們沒有教室啊以前我們說運送的問題可能有偏向的問題那現在連都會區都是這樣的一個問題啊大的學校三千人小的學校一千人動輒三五百箱八九百箱到一千箱往往哪放"},{"start":5490.125,"end":5516.798,"text":"有些人就協議說我們來放教室的後面這也影響學生的空間這都是問題然後各縣市政府不管他財政狀況好不好要來幫這個政策編列人力的預算來幫忙搬送鮮奶因為我們不能造成第一線的老師、行政員員午餐殖民的困擾所以這一些都是我們要配合農業部的政策但是教育部在第一線執行的時候真的帶給我們行政員員跟教師很大的困擾部長你認為有沒有"},{"start":5519.788,"end":5526.255,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這也是我剛才跟其他委員報告的我們希望通過這一學期實際跟地方政府的一個推動中小學的一個…確實是有造成一些困擾"},{"start":5537.546,"end":5550.9,"text":"所以你就有同理心嘛我想說老師也會很感謝你的同理心嘛所以我們要去解決這個問題嘛我們不能每一次農業部丟一個政策出來我們就開始急救張的要來配合他們如果真的做不到你要跟農業部講說給我一點時間嘛是不是你不能一頭栽進去結果咧我們承受這麼大的壓力再來"},{"start":5557.708,"end":5563.118,"text":"我想請教一下過去班班吃食班班班吃食班這件事情只有很短暫這對我們的孩子有什麼幫助我請國教署署長來回答"},{"start":5574.026,"end":5590.276,"text":"謝謝委員我簡單的說明我們從時燈平台後台來看小朋友他們午餐的菜單上在110年以前比較少餘的這個菜單在112學年吃過了一學期的班班十班之後呢他是比較明顯的成長那這個數據我們在下班前給您"},{"start":5594.096,"end":5611.066,"text":"謝謝部長所以呢因為我們有班班吃食班的政策所以孩子們開始變得喜歡吃娛樂然後或者是開始可以接受吃娛樂那這樣是好事如果真是這樣這是好事但是我們來看喔班班有鮮奶的政策今天我們變成班班飽酒辱"},{"start":5612.046,"end":5640.006,"text":"班班有鮮奶的政策變成班班有保酒乳我們真的第一個我想次長在旁邊也聽喔我們真的可以幫到我們的國產鮮乳我們的弱農嗎這是第一個問題第二個問題呢我想我們大家都有在質疑喔班班變成保酒乳其實我們就是在為未來比較這個價廉的進口保酒乳來搭橋有的孩子習慣喝這個保酒乳之後他就回不去了"},{"start":5640.586,"end":5642.509,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":5658.209,"end":5678.075,"text":"讓學童來幫忙救產業那真的太沉重了我們孩子就是只想喝鮮奶而已所以我在這裡提醒我想部長本期這一次剛剛我想我跟洪孟楷委員我們都有正式提案我今天有一個臨時提案我正式的要求部長不能造成我們第一線的老師跟行政院的困擾"},{"start":5679.115,"end":5699.85,"text":"過去我們在這個免費的營養午餐協助弱勢的學童當寒暑假的時候我們怎麼做各縣市政府或中央我們的做法就是我們發這個餐券營養午餐券然後到這個便利超商然後去領取他們可以食用的午餐所以呢我們要求這個政策能夠盡快立即的我們也把它改變成為發這個鮮奶券然後可以到這個便利超商也好賣場也好"},{"start":5707.475,"end":5709.778,"text":"第二、減少學校放置鮮奶空間的壓力第三、減少老師及行政員員的壓力"},{"start":5730.421,"end":5748.098,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們透過這個實際的在推動的時候也把這樣的一個在未來更精進的一個政策的執行也把委員剛才所提的也納入了一個我們思考的一個方向但是當時為什麼由學校裡邊來就是要確保我們"},{"start":5748.979,"end":5753.962,"text":"這部分有一些細節我們都還會跟地方政府裡面看怎麼樣有一個更完善的一個推動的一個方法"},{"start":5767.148,"end":5767.488,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":5784.149,"end":5802.221,"text":"這個政策其實從這個六、七月就開始講所以本席要求一個月之內我覺得你要去研議出來有什麼方式不要造成我們教育現場、學校現場的壓力但又可以完成農業部的這個班班有鮮奶給我們的這個政策所以一個月之內去把它研議出來積極一點好嗎?我們會努力可以齁?好,以上謝謝"},{"start":5808.339,"end":5815.065,"text":"好,謝謝部長、謝謝次長請回,謝謝萬美玲、張偉接下來有請柯智恩委員,謝謝好,謝謝,我們是不是請部長跟我們的杜次長好,有請鄭部長跟杜次長"},{"start":5833.721,"end":5847.272,"text":"兩位好我想從第一位到我這個部分大家都聚焦在有關於班班有鮮奶這樣的一個政策我想這個政策當然是一個美意不管是對孩子的健康或者是對我們弱農的一個發展我想應該是給予讚賞了但是還是一句話永遠換了一個問題就是"},{"start":5852.176,"end":5872.611,"text":"我永遠只有一個政策然後到最後淪為一個口號剛剛我們就特別提到了我記得在七月中旬的時候有一句話就是張廖次長特別是提到的每週提供兩次鮮奶一定不會打折信誓旦旦而且特別提到只有偏鄉才會喝飽酒乳那目前教育部的統計飽酒乳占75.77%部長這些都是偏鄉嗎?"},{"start":5882.591,"end":5905.21,"text":"這就是你們當初口號喊得這麼大聲就有發現需要所有的問題都出來不要說沒有冷鏈系統包括你給予的這些到時候再怎麼樣清理是不是造成所有的垃圾等等之類的都沒有好好來做討論所以讓這個美意就被打上一個折扣但是我們既然這個目標已經打出來了我們還是要看看一來怎麼解決我們來看下面那你看一下結果目前來說的話"},{"start":5909.173,"end":5918.237,"text":"部長你知道嗎?寶九乳的預算你們編的是五億兩千多為什麼絕標只有兩億?金額不到預算的一半?為什麼?為什麼?來我們次長也可以回應一下是 這個包括寶九乳或者是鮮奶的這個底價應該叫成本成本計算還加上合理論這個都是跟廠商那邊的所以嘛你們當初絕標你們絕標只有人家的一半你們就要知道問題所在那我請問14塊怎麼定出來的?"},{"start":5939.085,"end":5945.073,"text":"是廠商一起討論出來的?你現在在外面市價多少嗎?廠商有沒有利潤?廠商出來結果你發現廠商到處給你們部分每個人都想要競標得到結果發現根本完全沒有利潤可言以至於你們看你們現在決標只有這樣子你們知道問題所在嗎?"},{"start":5958.84,"end":5964.164,"text":"在採購過程應該是量夠大,那…量覺得夠大嗎?其實沒有,你們的問題全部都完全出來了所以難怪從頭到尾每個委員都直擊我幫你做一個綜合整理嘛每個難道會質疑說你們是為了進口薄酒乳來做一個鋪路當初希望能夠來振興我們的酪農結果呢,你看,你光是14加2塊的運費16塊"},{"start":5982.398,"end":5986.56,"text":"你就沒有辦法不符成本糯農的品質很好它當然價錢比這個更高結果你看勉強的配合是得標沒有得標的小糯農完全被擠出市場造成盛難而且還要被下殺收購這對我們本土的糯農是一個非常大的傷害更不要說羊乳產業馬上就被斷頭目前羊乳有六成是血統結果呢教育部跟農業部告訴我們說每個都有鮮奶可以喝馬上大家要停定了就你看看"},{"start":6011.57,"end":6012.653,"text":"你要救農的產業,你反而先重創羊奶產業的生計,有沒有這個事實?"},{"start":6019.015,"end":6046.408,"text":"謝謝委員提醒喔兩件事情第一個是不管是我們當然是希望大家都可以喝到國產的鮮奶但現在的公共供應契約上不管是保酒奶或者是鮮奶都一定要是國產用國內生產的牛奶鮮奶去做這是第一點沒有我現在問說你羊奶的產業你知道會造成這樣的一個結果嗎羊奶的產業其實我們在上個月跟這星期其實都有要約來談這是一件事情是因為產業的大小規模不同"},{"start":6046.628,"end":6060.026,"text":"好,我只是要提醒,你這造成影響,等一下還有很多的問題,來,我們再往下看,然後呢,你看有3%點多的孩子失去乳糖不耐,然後呢,你需要有這個所謂的涵蓋的豆漿,請問為什麼現在尚未決標?為什麼現在還沒有決標?"},{"start":6064.049,"end":6088.49,"text":"因為它不是一般豆漿,它是涵蓋豆漿我們現在台灣有涵蓋豆漿嗎?有,有兩家有哪兩家?它的豆,它的豆是來自於國產的還是來自國外的?我其實幫你做市場區隔了有,其實它們是有涵蓋豆漿然後呢,但是它們都是來自於外國的豆,不是台灣本土的豆然後我再往下來看,所以你可能要搞清楚喔而且你看看喔,還要提醒,保守者採購契約"},{"start":6090.171,"end":6092.915,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":6106.703,"end":6121.331,"text":"這個部分因為驗收的時間一月一號以後才會是保久乳一月一號可是你現在七月並沒有改現在才十月你現在七月沒有改國產鮮乳的部分是一定要TAP那我下次說保久乳保久乳現在完全沒有CAS或TAP"},{"start":6122.438,"end":6151.172,"text":"然後你說明年1月1號你怎麼可以保證這些保久乳一定有CAS或TAP然後你現在還沒有改你就要現在10月的人怎麼驗收在現在的契約裡面就是它只要是國產生乳製造的保久乳喔 對不起喔你目前為止你還是根據你們的設計的方式喔來去做這樣的處理我只是告訴你說目前這都是學校單位所反映給我們的目前是有這樣子的一個問題所以這個你們一定要特別注意接下來我們再來看喔部長你看看"},{"start":6152.332,"end":6158.317,"text":"農業部說四年的供應政策不會被改變但是你看像牛奶的問題、配送的問題全部丟給廠商跟學校這個是大家已經收集所有的意見了當你這個政策要推出來之前你們這些單位到底有沒有好好的去做一些的溝通你看"},{"start":6168.784,"end":6193.553,"text":"這些都是學校老師所反映給我們倒是每個月配送幾次而且配送的路線當初廠商說好是由他們來決定可是目前為止學校不同的學校都不同的一個方法所以到底是如何怎麼樣的分裝喝完誰來清洗怎麼樣來整理垃圾部長這些零零總總你現在應該到任何地方去這個政策出來應該有接受到很多學校complain的意見嘛特別是第一線的老師應該有吧"},{"start":6196.378,"end":6222.116,"text":"確實這也是我們希望說透過這一個學期能夠更深入瞭解更地方部長你講更深入瞭解我同意的但是你五月就見報你七月就已經信誓旦旦說來現在已經十月了所以你不能跟我說你要慢慢來瞭解這就是我剛剛一開始說的政策美意是很好可是你們永遠政策先推出來口號先出來然後呢細節你就告訴我說我們再慢慢收集這不能這樣啦部長不能這樣啦"},{"start":6224.898,"end":6241.318,"text":"我跟委員報告確實我們也聽到第一線上的這些校長跟老師他們有一些因為這一個政策所面臨的一些挑戰我們也把他拉進來那你覺得四年的公益政策會不會縮水?農業部跟部長你們可以保證嗎?"},{"start":6242.711,"end":6255.297,"text":"你們現在目前可以站在這個地方告訴我嗎這是你們既定的政策為了孩子的健康為了弱農的發展弱農發展我已經幫你既定了沒有幫助到弱農反而讓我們的養奶的產業先斷裂然後呢你們可以保證這四年的供應政策不會縮水嗎會不會縮水"},{"start":6258.001,"end":6265.727,"text":"那我剛剛所講的這些問題你目前都沒有辦法解決啊你不能告訴我說目前每個人都是75%都是由學校來決定學校就是沒有冷鏈系統他被迫沒有選擇只能選擇保久乳那我再跟部長講你們也有很多人去觀察這個日本日本的營養午餐必付牛奶已經實行了十幾年了"},{"start":6279.238,"end":6289.36,"text":"日本人早就做到了那台灣為什麼到現在為止還哩哩啷啷部長你有去發現原因嗎利益良好為什麼日本做得到我們做不到你知道這中心的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":6290.745,"end":6292.066,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":6310.459,"end":6319.807,"text":"現在學校老師已經被行政系統已經減量都減不了了你還要再增加他的負擔然後呢大家有幫你們想到一個方法有沒有機會去到超商來兌換還有我還是要強調對於乳糖不耐的孩子你這些豆漿到底是如何來訣標而且我要直指我問過廠商涵蓋的豆奶"},{"start":6331.937,"end":6347.165,"text":"目前為止那些涵蓋的豆奶那些豆子基本上不是國產是國外的這些都是有待釐清我還是要提醒我們從農委會提升到農業部已經給予到農業部的標準我覺得整個的品質還是要提升部長你現在解決這些怎麼解決"},{"start":6349.726,"end":6369.701,"text":"剛剛前面那幾個問題你看我更幫你弄出來了你看丁配送、瞬間鋁箔包、吸管、吸管套、塑膠、塑膠膜老師都幫你想好了沒有剪開要清血會發臭垃圾量驚人有些學員不愛喝偷偷倒掉造成浪費配送時間跟學校的作息完全沒有辦法配合沒有冰箱、沒有電腦寶珠都幫你全部整理完畢這只有條列7點我還可以告訴你17點這些東西"},{"start":6375.365,"end":6384.338,"text":"牛奶卷會不會是一個選擇的方法?如果沒有辦法解決這些問題,你今天告訴我你要撐四年,我覺得都是一些非常困難的事情。部長你怎麼說?就不要讓他改管?"},{"start":6388.305,"end":6404.575,"text":"我們會努力改善你要努力來改善我們就看看怎麼樣來改善這還是要提醒部長一個政策的提醒真的是配套沒有做好不要馬上拿出一個大內宣的口號那更不要說有鮮奶的部分我們剛剛說有一部分是要能夠提振我們酪農我要問一下杜次長酪農其實有大的改變"},{"start":6407.757,"end":6417.421,"text":"六月的時候食藥署已經離清了你們現在創造非常多鮮奶的標語延長保存期限的鮮乳長效的鮮乳ESL的鮮乳對我來說鮮乳保存就是兩個禮拜嘛我要是兩個禮拜沒有喝完我就覺得我很焦慮只管你們有效時間是90天你們還稱為鮮乳嗎這是讓很多弱農非常非常的"},{"start":6430.006,"end":6430.567,"text":"謝謝委員支持我們的立場跟酪農是一樣的"},{"start":6457.449,"end":6457.729,"text":"長校乳或ESL乳"},{"start":6469.831,"end":6497.326,"text":"都叫做鮮乳我們的立場其實跟落農是一樣的你們完全不一樣杜次長你是不一樣你應該多多聽落農先生這些全部是他們的反應給我們的90天不叫做鮮乳我覺得在這個定義上面你們或許還有非常大的一個空間總而言之好的政策希望部長希望次長能夠好好的對於配套的部分才去做否則你就會遭受從頭到尾其實大家的問題都一樣怎麼樣把它落實這還是提供兩位行政首長好好來做一些檢討謝謝"},{"start":6500.964,"end":6510.316,"text":"好 我們謝謝克珍委員部長常常請回下一位我們有請葉元智委員然後我們在范淵委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘麻煩請鄭部長好 我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":6527.072,"end":6555.166,"text":"部長,那個班班有鮮奶這個政策當初是說9月就要開始嘛,讓班班都可以喝到鮮奶那這個政策是不是確定跳票?確定了嗎?跟委員報告,我不曉得這樣是不是叫做跳票,但是我們...班班的意思就是每一班都有的意思啦現在有沒有每一班都有?沒有嘛,這就跳票了嘛你知道我前幾天跟一個國小學生啊我問他說你們學校有班班喝鮮奶嗎?你知道他回我什麼嗎?他說班班是誰啊?"},{"start":6557.401,"end":6571.66,"text":"因為沒有人喝到這個鮮奶啊所以他不曉得啊他以為班班是一個人啊還問我班班是誰啊那班班喝鮮奶他兩個方向跳票第一個是有一些學校是連保酒乳都沒有啊連保酒乳都沒有送到"},{"start":6572.461,"end":6595.438,"text":"第二個是有的學校是喝薄酒乳那不無論是哪一種情況就是沒有喝到鮮奶嘛所以這個跳票的問題我覺得教育部今天來為什麼會排這個專案報告我想就是要請教育部來研商、討論怎麼解決這個問題應該是這樣吧那結果今天看到教育部的報告三張紙啦"},{"start":6597.81,"end":6618.21,"text":"比農業部還少這三張紙裡面對於班班喝鮮奶跳票的原因隻字未提啦沒有提到說現在每個學校遇到什麼困難所以沒有找到問題就沒有解決方案嘛所以我今天部長來感覺就是說對啊我就是做不到怎麼你拿我怎樣咬我嗎那種態度喔"},{"start":6619.033,"end":6637.24,"text":"所以我覺得這樣我們非常不能接受報告委員我們並不是這樣一個態度那我先把問題跟您講因為你的報告裡面都沒有這些問題啊都沒有提到啊我先告訴你第一個問題好不好第一個問題就是現在的光是農業部跟"},{"start":6638.5,"end":6659.759,"text":"廠商的契約所簽訂的量就不夠嘛我舉新北市為例啦新北市每個月鮮奶加薄酒乳要172萬瓶啊結果現在還相差到77.5萬瓶等於是說大概你現在就算完全公益顏值人公益大概四成左右欸大概六成左右大概有缺四成不想知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":6666.169,"end":6687.901,"text":"你知道這個狀況嗎你知道我們新北市光是廠商的量就不足農業部跟廠商簽的約供應契約裡面的量就不足你知道這個狀況嗎跟委員報告確實新北市副局長有反映這樣的一個情況不是副局長反映啦我是問你說當初政策講得那麼好聽班班喝鮮奶"},{"start":6689.102,"end":6701.931,"text":"政策目標我就不去談了這麼好聽結果你的量根本就沒有簽到班班喝鮮奶的量那你當初在喊出這口號的時候是純心要欺騙大家怎麼會連簽的量都不夠咧我想農業部也一直在這方面做努力不是有沒有做努力啦你跟我們講班班喝鮮奶你照道理也講你每個月要供應給我們新北市172萬瓶啊"},{"start":6717.54,"end":6731.463,"text":"那為什麼還會差到77.5萬坪呢?光是這一件事情說很不合理啊我現在還沒有講到配送的問題喔我現在在講說你光是量就不夠怎麼會這樣部長農業部"},{"start":6742.349,"end":6760.942,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這件事情是這樣因為其實我們知道酪農生產牛奶是每天生產它並不是生產完之後放了一年的量在那裡那所以其實在乳廠跟我們簽訂約的時候其實它也是足每天一直在生產所以這是第一點那第二點是"},{"start":6761.582,"end":6782.965,"text":"不是啦,你知不知道當初簽的量就不夠,知不知道?你知道嗎?副次長是不是?你知道嗎?對不起,你知不知道剛出簽就不夠,知道嗎?會再做第二次採購不是,你知不知道嗎?那這樣好不好,你改一個口號兩班喝鮮奶應該不是這樣子好不好,不要講班班喝鮮奶,或二分之一班喝鮮奶嘛"},{"start":6784.894,"end":6807.848,"text":"不好意思我們在質詢的時候那個平靜黨的委員不要在下面打擾好不好等一下你講話你質詢我也在下面聊天這個契約都是可以在我們現在在幫學校在監督然後你在那邊打擾我是謝謝委員關係那你不要喊班班喝鮮奶因為你喊了班班喝鮮奶人家會覺得奇怪為什麼我們班沒有嘛為什麼會沒有為什麼沒有"},{"start":6811.96,"end":6815.282,"text":"就沒有嘛,所以國小的學生才會講說班班是誰嘛是,所以我想就是說其實在公共供應企業上面有兩種一種是鮮乳,一種是保酒乳那依照需要都可以去採購不是,我剛剛已經把保酒乳的量算進去了嘛鮮奶加保酒乳就是要172萬瓶嘛你現在還差了77.5萬瓶,這第一個問題這什麼時候補足?"},{"start":6839.46,"end":6860.893,"text":"我們會再做第二次採購好,第二次採購那第二次採購那就跳票啦九月很多人就喝不到啊,對吧?好,第二個齁就是因為現在已經十月了嘛所以九月就很多人就沒喝到了嘛第二鮮奶為什麼大家沒有辦法喝是因為很多學校沒有這個條件剛剛很多委員都提到了那這個部分有要幫他們解決嗎?"},{"start":6863.355,"end":6885.469,"text":"這個部分其實在有很多委員也已經到現場執行聽到那我想所有的政策第一次吹動碰到這些問題都會有那有沒有要幫忙解決我們都會實際來面對那能夠希望把這些問題解決讓真的把國產鮮乳能夠推到學校做學童鮮奶現在沒有辦法送到偏鄉學校你知道嗎很多廠商不願意幫忙送鮮奶到偏鄉學校這個要幫忙解決嗎"},{"start":6886.505,"end":6911.779,"text":"所有的問題我們都會來幫忙解決怎麼解決啊因為其實配送不會是問題像在阿里山上確實也可以喝到鮮奶我現在就把問題告訴你嘛不要來這邊油槍滑掉好不好我現在就把問題告訴你你說會解決怎麼解決現在廠商就是不願意送所以現在廠商要求偏鄉學校改成保修路我們會再跟廠商來溝通這件事情那如果還有出現這個狀況呢我們盡量來溝通不是盡量嘛現在就是有這個狀況嘛要怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":6915.045,"end":6934.713,"text":"怎麼解決?你告訴我怎麼解決?那如果你要解決為什麼現在會有這個狀況?我覺得你們來答詢不要這種態度好不好?把問題反映給你就是我們要解決我們要解決那怎麼解決啊?下一次如果稍微拍一樣的題目過來你還是一樣我們會解決但是找不出解決方法啊怎麼解決嘛?"},{"start":6937.149,"end":6954.202,"text":"其實也有跟廠商提過但是我想學校這邊我們還是要尊重學校就是要喝鮮奶但是廠商不願意送所以要求學校改成薄酒乳這個問題要怎麼解決因為時間不夠第四個問題現在有送薄酒乳的學校的廠商"},{"start":6955.879,"end":6983.378,"text":"他一次要送一個月所以要堆積了幾千幾千瓶在學校裡面那學校有教育局有去協調說是不是可以請廠商分批送可以讓沒有喝到的學校也可以先喝到但是廠商不願意因為他們說跟農業部簽的合約裡面就是說一次送一個月因為對他們來說可以節省運送的成本但是因為這樣子就會讓很多學校喝不到他不願意做一個分配那請問農業部知道這個事嗎"},{"start":6984.95,"end":7006.598,"text":"我想謝謝委員提出來也提醒我們農業部知不知道這個事我們也正在協調也正在協調農業部你今天我今天告訴你那麼多的問題你都一副就是我本來就知道但是我就盡量協調但是我沒有要把它處理你給我態度就這樣啊請教一下我剛剛講的問題你什麼時候可以解決什麼時候可以解決"},{"start":7007.833,"end":7028.701,"text":"如果針對新北的部分,我們當然就是針對新北鮮奶術力,但是…量,第一個量的問題,第二個解決那個鮮奶的冷鏈、冷藏的問題,第三個是偏遠地區配送鮮奶的問題,第四個是保久乳要送,不要一次送一個月,讓它可以分散,讓大家都可以喝得到,農業部大概什麼時候可以提出解決方案?"},{"start":7029.451,"end":7031.834,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":7046.869,"end":7067.679,"text":"我請教一下那個校安的部分之前土城的國三生的戈井案的宣判出來了嘛總共判九年嘛那因為是少年犯所以只要三分之一假釋就可以出來關三年就出來了那我個人是覺得啦當然法律是這樣定但是這個對於學校的校園安全"},{"start":7068.912,"end":7095.192,"text":"我認為是沒有辦法達到什麼賀祖利啦十五歲殺一條人殺一條殺一個人然後一條人命進去之後三年就出來十八歲出來之後還大圍了啦出來還大圍部長你覺得這樣的法律有賀祖利嗎我想對青少年的許多的發展裡面他們怎麼樣給他們有一個更安全的一個校園學習的一個環境確實是我沒有努力部長"},{"start":7096.212,"end":7112.925,"text":"我之前一直跟你建議說把學務組、學務處至少生教組可以增設專職的校安人員這其實是很多學校給我的建議一個數據啦因為現在很多生教組長都是代理老師這你應該也知道吧是"},{"start":7113.605,"end":7139.628,"text":"那大家因為覺得生肖組長的工作太繁重他們平常還有教課所以實在是沒有願意做那現在產生一個叫行政大逃亡生肖組長根本沒有人要兼那我一直建議說可以找專職的校園人員來處理學生事務那上個會期您告訴我說會在開學前給一個報告結果你回給我的報告上面還是說要增設一個副組長的津貼就是讓老師來兼副組長"},{"start":7141.301,"end":7150.71,"text":"這完全是風馬流不相及現在連組長都找不到人要兼的你就開一個副組長那一樣是帶老師來兼啊這個跟我剛說跟你的訴求是完全不一樣"},{"start":7153.579,"end":7180.952,"text":"跟我們報告,確實我們現在也在在內部在整體的一個評估在整個……不是,叫部長上個會期你就跟我說在這個會期前會給個報告針對我們說偵測校安人員的部分嘛那你就沒有做到嘛那我不知道說因為這個新的會期又開始是不是可以真的認真的針對我們的問題來回答因為你回到千篇一律都不是針對我們的問題你增加一個副組長沒有解決我們講的問題嗎"},{"start":7183.587,"end":7208.684,"text":"是,這我們來檢討,我們來檢討那所以會,還,什麼時候會有答案?確實因為他整個人事上裡面所有的,我想會後我會跟,我們再來跟委員會後是不是?好,謝謝我們請部長會後再去葉委員辦公室報告好不好?好,謝謝好,我們謝謝葉委員這位委員那接下來有請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":7214.198,"end":7215.78,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":7227.347,"end":7248.579,"text":"部長早安我想今天我們的召委安排的主題一個是老校舍一個就是鮮奶的相關的議題那針對老校舍的部分我有看到教育部的報告那看起來你們都有在爭取就是大家關切的預算然後我想校舍老不一定是問題最重要就是安全嘛"},{"start":7249.119,"end":7265.098,"text":"所以是不是可以針對這個安全防震的評估那給我辦公室一個報告就是你們新的做法補助的部分那另外還有鮮奶的部分我剛聽下來包含我自己都有感受到這個用意是好的"},{"start":7265.858,"end":7291.917,"text":"只是現在透過地方政府的不同的實行方式加上不管是鮮奶、薄酒乳本身都有一些它的食材的特質有些地方就是讓大家感覺到不到這個美意甚至造成負擔我想我比較關心的是基層的教師是不是因為這樣子增加了行政負擔在教育部滾動式檢討的過程中是不是也能夠在"},{"start":7292.877,"end":7295.419,"text":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":7320.421,"end":7324.426,"text":"二、教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":7340.145,"end":7368.545,"text":"不僅能送到某地還需要老師來發放的話那這個其實行政就會導致過勞那原本校園中就已經有剛剛講到不管行政大逃亡或是老師過勞之外的那這些都是原因但是我今天想針對的另外一個比較少人關注的校園職場霸凌那希望跟教育部做更仔細的討論那部長應該可以了解到校園中職場霸凌很難成案"},{"start":7369.325,"end":7385.902,"text":"有一個原因是說你一旦申訴了就會影響到自己在職場上的名聲教師不是一個容易轉職的行業因為跟中小企業不大一樣我辦公室整理了四件我們都有直接或間接的獲報的陳情案"},{"start":7387.944,"end":7403.709,"text":"那我認為這只是冰山的一角因為有更多敢怒不敢言的老師這四個案子我們可以看到有調查成立的還有學校有法源依據還有兩案是調查中那其中一個是師對師三案是校長對老師"},{"start":7405.489,"end":7430.612,"text":"以2021年有上新聞的代理教師輕生案加一是調查了可是調查結果是不成立被監察院糾正我想請問教育部你們之後被監察院糾正之後有認為有什麼事情是教育部可以事先做的讓被霸凌的個案不會再以這樣子的一個悲劇的結果作解嗎部長不知道這件事情有沒有檢視過"},{"start":7432.609,"end":7458.064,"text":"是的我想這個是屬於職場霸凌我想我們在有關這個涉及到校長對老師的一個霸凌裡面地方政府他就會直接成立這一個委員會裡面來做調查然後就教育部來講我們當然也會直接跟地方教育這個縣市教育局縣市政府來做一些合作我想老師如果被霸凌地方政府"},{"start":7460.926,"end":7483.485,"text":"對地方政府的處置是不滿意的我想他也可以直接跟上級機關直接跟教育部再來做這樣一個投訴、申訴等等所以部長非常清楚知道教育部就是地方政府的教育局的上級嗎?是那部長知道校園也要適用我們通過上一屆我有參與推動的職業安全衛生法這個部長知道吧?"},{"start":7484.775,"end":7512.188,"text":"知道校園職場也適用職業安全衛生法那跟部長講一下這個其實校園的職業安全衛生法這是第一條就有講就是其他機關也適用那第四條也有講到學校就是本法適用於各業所以沒有善盡保護勞工責任的雇主會被處以罰款那部長知道這件事情嗎?雇主如果沒有善盡責任會被處以罰款"},{"start":7515.715,"end":7519.637,"text":"請問部長到目前為止有哪個單位被罰了嗎?部長知不知道所有校園職場有沒有哪個僱主被罰了?"},{"start":7530.947,"end":7557.089,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前手上是沒有這一個更詳細的一些資料那應該是沒有啦如果你有查到有任何一個僱主被罰了那可以給本辦這個資料那我們了解並沒有那部長知不知道為什麼沒有一個僱主被罰我們剛講到好多成案了對不對還有被監察院糾正的為什麼沒有被罰您知道嗎沒有僱主被罰"},{"start":7563.838,"end":7580.832,"text":"部長應該不知道其實就是我們現在因為依照職安法精神壓力這些就是儲新台幣有3萬元到30萬元的不同的情形所以沒有人被罰的其實事實上沒有被開罰就是目前我們相關的辦法"},{"start":7583.134,"end":7607.256,"text":"其實都沒有寫得很清楚就是各機關並沒有妥善保障校園執場的申訴跟相關的仔細的規定那我們把所有的師對師校長對老師都拿出來檢視我們以各校這還是比較好的有些學校有訂出來我們剛剛看到那四個陳情案有些學校連訂都沒有訂網頁都找不到以這兩個有訂的"},{"start":7608.797,"end":7625.383,"text":"左邊是臺北市某國小申訴中的流程中沒有告知申訴處理的期限右邊是花蓮縣某國中甚至找不到校內有職場霸凌相關規定所以這個職安法在校園中目前"},{"start":7626.623,"end":7637.838,"text":"幾乎是很多地方是空白的那這個是學校這個部分那當然學校職場霸凌相關規定如果沒有連規定都沒有的話教育部應該監督吧"},{"start":7639.571,"end":7667.049,"text":"我想接委員提醒這確實會後我們會前面來檢視這只是其中的一層學校裡面有沒有相關的規定那我們看縣市立高中縣市立高中的話應該要向縣市政府教育局處申訴嘛那縣市也會出現行政不周就像我剛剛說的嘉義市被監察院調查的如果縣市出現行政不周教育部是不是有權接手調查請問部長邏輯上是不是這樣"},{"start":7670.34,"end":7673.282,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":7689.592,"end":7715.283,"text":"OK 邏輯上部長講得很清楚可是現實上你看這個南投縣政府的相關職場霸凌防制作業完全沒有處理沒有成立調查小組這件事情怎麼辦還有由誰啟動調查這部分也是地方的據說法規中就訂得很模糊了那新北市招局還沒有相關規定網頁只能夠看到勞動局的模板"},{"start":7716.063,"end":7739.124,"text":"所以他可見只有模板沒有針對這個校園的部分做處理這也是目前疏漏的部分那再跟部長講一下國教署應該要做得最好吧國立高中是不是直接就應該是國教署國立高中如果是校長對老師霸凌的話他的就直接應該到國教署部長同意吧"},{"start":7739.884,"end":7764.242,"text":"是的那你看看這裡面的相關的規定那如果國教署的調查中如果出現瑕疵現行法規中也沒有一條點出教育部可以如何處理那如果申訴不符國教署的調查決議完全沒有提供救濟管道究竟是要找行政法院呢還是教育部就直接就可以幫忙救濟了"},{"start":7764.602,"end":7780.407,"text":"如果連國教署對這件事情的處理方式都是不完全的那我想就是你會沒有出現任何的罰款就可以理解了那教育部自己的校園職場霸凌相關規定也沒有提及救濟跟怎麼懲處僱主的機制"},{"start":7783.128,"end":7806.243,"text":"所以部長你這樣聽起來這個校園職場安全似乎教育部好像沒有把它當成是一個重要的工作部長有沒有同意到目前為止職安法修過之後你們都沒有完整的檢視你們作為雇主之一你不是雇主唯一啊因為雇主還有學校、地方政府、國教署國教署也是教育部的一部分嘛"},{"start":7807.224,"end":7821.941,"text":"第一、目前各級機關沒有定定完善的校園職場霸凌處理流程第二、雇主失職的時候以嘉義市政府為例如果監察院沒有跳下來教育部好像不覺得這件事情跟自己相關"},{"start":7823.291,"end":7842.969,"text":"那這兩個是不是問題部長我想這個行政上的一些疏漏督導不足這我們會深切的來改善那另外我想包含老師的一個權益受損這一個我們也會在適當的這個透過行政管道讓老師知道能夠這個尋求這個勞動部一邊來取得這個權益的一個維護"},{"start":7847.093,"end":7865.023,"text":"那所以相關的申訴機制比如說以嘉義市為例嘉義市教育局去調查不周的時候就應該要有一個後續的一個救濟跟懲處機制所以呢我請部長謝謝您剛剛的承諾完善各層級校園職場霸凌處理流程二"},{"start":7865.623,"end":7893.274,"text":"制定各級職場霸凌行政流程處理疏失者的救責機制對我們的年輕世代來講如果沒有良好的職場環境他用腳走路選擇離開那這是我們整個教育界的損失好不好那我們要保障下一代的教育人才能夠安心在校園中把心力放在教育我們的下一代那請部長那個多久之內可以給我這樣一個報告呢這兩點"},{"start":7897.501,"end":7911.476,"text":"跟委員報告因為涉及到跨部會是不是可以容許我們有兩個月的時間?兩個月?好!兩個月齁!那你們不了解的部分就請勞動部協助好不好?好!那我就等你兩個月的報告了齁!好!那謝謝部長承諾!謝謝委員!謝謝!好!謝謝范芸昭委!那我們休息五分鐘!"},{"start":8221.786,"end":8244.449,"text":"好,接下來我們繼續開會。我們有請陳秀寶委員進行質詢。謝主席,請教育部政部長以及我們農業部的杜長四。好,有請政部長跟杜次長。"},{"start":8251.547,"end":8262.962,"text":"部長早安,針對今天的專報,班班有鮮奶及老舊校舍的整建首先我們先來看一下關於班班有鮮奶的需求數據依據全國的需求表來看"},{"start":8266.587,"end":8286.872,"text":"新來的登記的部分是20.76% 包酒乳是75.77 涵蓋豆漿是3.47那本席的選區 彰化縣是弱農大縣 但是竟然選擇鮮乳的比例也只有14%部長你覺得這是最主要原因是什麼 我想這個部分我們針對兩個部分來討論我先請教農業部"},{"start":8291.713,"end":8307.216,"text":"市長您覺得說我們的冷鏈系統是不是會跟不上就是我們這個現在要配送鮮乳的這個需求讓縣市政府、讓家長、讓學校會覺得說在鮮乳的保存上有食安的疑慮"},{"start":8308.777,"end":8329.627,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,因為其實在很多縣市有一些縣型就已經在做鮮乳配送,所以這個部分其實是需要有配套,您說的沒錯那第二點就是說,其實還是要在跟各縣市下訂的時候,我們有在說,但是我還會持續在說就是說,如果當場是沒有冷藏設備的話,其實廠商會提供保冷袋"},{"start":8330.467,"end":8331.988,"text":"市長,在針對能鏈系統的部分,其實我國在生鮮的農產品的配送以及生乳的運送這個技術應該是相當的成熟"},{"start":8350.203,"end":8357.573,"text":"如果確實說是在偏遠地區他有一些難以配送的困境才會選擇保久爐一般我們會這樣子想那農業部這邊你們覺得以你們比較專業的看法說是不是是因為冷鏈系統的關係所以選擇鮮爐的比例會比較低"},{"start":8366.063,"end":8384.4,"text":"我想在學校或縣市政府這邊應該是有他考量的問題那我想我們會再次再次跟縣市政府說對於沒有冷藏設施的部分我們是可以提供保冷袋讓他至少可以保冷至少兩個小時以上這樣子的時候其實對於"},{"start":8385.561,"end":8411.448,"text":"在學童要飲用的安全上面是有比較的保障是謝謝次長那我這邊請教教育部部長其實嘉義縣跟雲林縣在我們班班有鮮奶的政策之前都有配送學童鮮乳這個經驗甚至雲林縣的學童飲用鮮乳已經超過5年也沒有發生有食安的問題所以本席這邊要請教部長這個部分我們是不是可以請雲林縣來分享他們相關的經驗來提供給其他縣市來參考"},{"start":8413.541,"end":8424.345,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒確實在我們這個班班有鮮奶之前雲林、嘉義本來就已經都有在提供給縣市的學童核鮮奶"},{"start":8428.973,"end":8435.737,"text":"我想他們的經驗確實也是我們未來可以來所以這邊是不是請教育部裡面也可以積極了解之後來協助其他的地方縣市來提供給他們參考降低就是在鮮乳保存上這個食安的疑慮其實本席這邊要強調就是說班班有鮮乳是希望說我們要提供給孩童更全面的營養那有這樣的美意、政策的美意希望不要打折"},{"start":8453.166,"end":8457.009,"text":"由其在本期的選區,福興鄉是我國弱農重鎮,我們全國占牛乳的產量是全國第二,但是我們縣裡面這個登記的這個表格看起來對鮮乳的需求這麼低,而且選擇保酒乳的這個需求比較高,讓我也覺得十分的疑惑。"},{"start":8470.357,"end":8473.92,"text":"如果說我們彰化縣是沒有配送的經驗本身認為說也應該向其他縣市來學習所以希望說如果是因為有這個冷鏈系統及配送問題而沒有經驗其實不能就因為這樣不去嘗試我是希望從教育部跟農業部這邊應該也要善盡協助的責任"},{"start":8488.191,"end":8490.973,"text":"協助沒有經驗的縣市政府就向其他有相關經驗的縣市學習讓我們的孩童可以有更全面的營養是我們每一位大人的責任所以說如果我們的政策有不夠細緻的地方我們可以再加強我們可以再檢討然後再來改善"},{"start":8507.122,"end":8521.226,"text":"地方縣市政府沒有經驗我希望我們農業部跟教育部就來協助讓我們一起以孩子的健康為出發點一起努力喔好那這個部分農業部你們可以先請回我接下來要請教我們部長關於老舊校舍的問題"},{"start":8523.027,"end":8525.969,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8554.468,"end":8576.526,"text":"根文報告我們在這個明年裡邊大概有27億1月4年會有27億的這個對老舊教室上的一些整修這個改建大概我們事實上是有對各縣市的這些國中小有一些老舊的建築物但是部長您所謂的27億是針對所有的老舊校舍"},{"start":8580.416,"end":8581.817,"text":"是的,我目前"},{"start":8612.978,"end":8630.529,"text":"議員提到27頁是針對所有老舊校舍而不是針對這些老舊的活動中心委員所關心的我們一定會跟地方政府裡面共同合作然後也一定會有立即的一些要改善的我們在透過中央跟地方的合作裡面"},{"start":8631.63,"end":8634.332,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":8661.51,"end":8661.63,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8666.277,"end":8694.635,"text":"有一點細節給委員部長他也知道這個在八月份的時候開會大概有一件事是孩子們這些代表們自己要去選出他們的代表那主席也是他們選的那會後有這一些言論我們也去了解關切以及表達在正式的選擇的時候選舉的時候大家在互動的過程中要尊重大家彼此的意見大概都有在處理"},{"start":8694.935,"end":8714.64,"text":"四個都是就是我今天所要說的其實在教育部對於我們這些相關的會議我們應該要保障各年齡的發言權以及我們應該制定學生代表的會議職域在這個會議上有一些比較年長的學生代表不斷的質疑年紀比較小的這些代表來質疑他們是不是有具備參與會議的資格"},{"start":8716.28,"end":8740.757,"text":"甚至在會議上都會以小孩、小屁孩這樣的字樣來嘲諷年紀比較小的這些學生代表然後在投票的階段因為投票的結果沒有很滿意甚至還會叫囂、拍桌這樣子不斷的質疑年紀較小的這些學生代表而且會後還會有針對這些年紀比較小的學生進行騷擾跟拍照的動作讓他們這些年紀比較輕的學生心生恐懼"},{"start":8742.738,"end":8765.422,"text":"我相信我們後來還會有很多的會議相當多的會議是會有這樣子不同年齡層的這個學生代表來參與那這一次的會議上其實教育部的人員也都在旁邊協助那為什麼你們沒有在這個會議的裡面你們友善盡這樣子協助的責任你們在會議上扮演的角色或者說針對這些不當的舉動你們有沒有制止"},{"start":8767.357,"end":8792.974,"text":"在會議的過程中除了前排還有相關的顧問大概有三位到六位包含會議議程的顧問包含CRC的顧問大概都在附近那在零星的地方有特定的因為那個場域比較大是一個活動中心那特定的場域都已經有我們剛才講的顧問那零星的地方以及會後的在網路上的發言我們剛好有蒐集到"},{"start":8793.294,"end":8794.196,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":8800.299,"end":8826.213,"text":"當然我們尊重多元啦尊重各位與會代表他們的發言權以及他們的權益以及他本身他們所代表的身份但是在會議裡面我們是不是也應該要說其實我們在會議裡面有這麼多不同的年紀的學生來參與就是希望說請聽學生的意見那尤其說這是攸關於課綱的這個制定那我剛剛提到就是說其實我們有很多會議是會有不同的年齡層來參與的"},{"start":8828.174,"end":8844.745,"text":"那希望說教育部是不是真的這個部分呢真的學生代表參加與會的這些相關的會議能夠制定相關的發言的規範我們來保障就是說各能凝成學生代表的權益這個部分教育部有沒有比較積極的做法謝謝委員提醒我想如果在這一個我們在透過這一個會議裡邊然後不同的委員有對其他委員的這些不當言論我想這都是"},{"start":8854.631,"end":8862.094,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":8895.013,"end":8902.576,"text":"好,謝主席,我們有請部長部長OK了嗎?好,謝謝,那我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":8905.182,"end":8927.974,"text":"好,部長好,本會期第一次見面,教育的議題,不論幼教、特教、國教、高教、成教等等,我們都有政策要很多的要來討論,任中道遠。部長,加油。謝謝。那我想上週我們這個三坨河颱風來襲,看到很多的一些狀況,不管是屋頂啊、路牌啊、亂飛啊,我們都非常感到憂心喔。"},{"start":8928.294,"end":8952.358,"text":"那教育部在10月3號初步估計有11所學校有受損那目前呢,過了一個禮拜了再加上基隆北海岸的一個地區上週五大豪雨教育部是否有詳細的受災或者是財損的一個狀況影響到受我們的孩子的受教權益有沒有更新?根委員報告,謝委員的這個關心這個災損我們確實現在有139的"},{"start":8958.547,"end":8968.715,"text":"五百二十六的一個學校裡邊那整個災損目前估計是大概三點六億好十月三號十一所現在五百多所"},{"start":8969.946,"end":8997.574,"text":"那82萬變成3點多億我想這個數字上有很大的一個差異還過了一週那我想爭取老舊校舍的改建特別編列預算我也有一個臨時動議待會會提出那我想國內超過50年的屋齡老舊校舍有2200餘棟超過30年的一個屋齡大概8300多棟針對老舊校舍的改建行政院一般性的補助只有37.5億"},{"start":8999.435,"end":9018.007,"text":"那我想針對這個部分行政院甚至是公然灌水說最近投入了千億元這千億元我想明明就是包括了班班有平板班班有冷氣班班有網路校園跑道整修以及廁所整修電力的一個改善整整"},{"start":9019.403,"end":9042.936,"text":"真正用在老舊校舍補助的部分是少之又少那我想9月30號的聯合報報導指出我想您也很清楚有縣市教育局的官員表示中央編列這樣子的一個金額太少單一縣市每年只改建3到4所的一個學校請問這樣子的預算編列針對老舊校舍我們要到什麼時候才能夠整體完成"},{"start":9044.156,"end":9073.836,"text":"根委員報告這一個可能要在這邊根委員再補充說明事實上這個從九二一大地震以後這個98年到1111年總共前後有14年事實上是這一個不管哪一個政黨這個執政事實上都是共同看到這一個校園這一個建築教學用的這些這一個教室怎麼樣去改善它的一個防震跟這個安全上的一些考量"},{"start":9074.797,"end":9078.8,"text":"總共投入了1315億,這是14年的累積,總共改善了包含補強及危險教室拆建有8788棟"},{"start":9094.733,"end":9119.107,"text":"那跟委員報告這個就是在921民國88年以前許多的防震系數教室老舊教室裡邊大概全面地毯式的搜索有一萬七千多筆裡邊做了初步的這14年的改善大概跟委員報告就是說特別要說的是在這個之前我們大概做了一個地毯式的一個"},{"start":9120.428,"end":9146.463,"text":"會有危險的必須要立即改善的跟拆除的大概這到11年是做了一個段落上的一個階段性的一個這個我就想問第二個問題現在的補助款有88%都是結構性的一個補強只有12%是拆除重建請問這是教育局做過專業的評估不需要重建就可以達到的安全標準還是單純為了省錢沒有跟委員報告這都是有專業的一個評估"},{"start":9148.362,"end":9174.446,"text":"做這樣的一個處理的好我想評估的科學標準是什麼家長都非常的憂心我們擔心這是治標不治本當然你們說這是有專業的科學依據我想今年4月花蓮大地震全台灣有1080所學校受損因為地震被震成圍樓的花蓮女中綜合大樓屋齡只有36年跟其他地區的老舊校舍比起來還算年輕可能"},{"start":9174.986,"end":9196.095,"text":"就會優先重建超過50年最危險的老舊校舍但是事實證明即使只有36年的花女綜合大樓遇到地震一樣會倒所以部長能不能承諾我們應該用最嚴格的標準以重建代替補強而不是用省錢的標準來看待老舊校舍的重建"},{"start":9197.473,"end":9216.648,"text":"跟委員報告,確實所有的這個校舍的一個改建,我們是以安全做唯一的一個規準。好,部長我想在我自己的這個選區啊,有老舊校舍不是只有老跟舊的一個問題,有的就沒有實照。那這個問題其實對我們都非常擔憂,那可以說這就是違建了嘛。"},{"start":9217.128,"end":9240.858,"text":"那所以部長面對全台灣有14萬學童在危險上課台灣地區屬於地震帶的部分雖然有地震相處已是日常但是我們不能掉以輕心啊老舊校舍的改建你只向行政院爭取了公立國民中小學老舊校舍拆除重建計畫114年到117年度350億350億不是會太少了嗎?你不覺得你太客氣了嗎?"},{"start":9243.115,"end":9255.434,"text":"跟委員報告,這個我想有一些我們內部的一些在老舊教室的一個這個補強跟這個圍樓的拆遷有一些新的一個數據我想是不是容我會後再補送給這個委員"},{"start":9258.499,"end":9270.624,"text":"相關的資料我們一起來了解但是我想過去8年為了國人的安全政府編列2370億海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算2472億新式戰機採購特別預算也編了1000億特別預算役駐勞健寶以及台電公司編列前瞻預算特別預算8800億用於軌道建設、水資源環境、城鄉建設等等"},{"start":9285.29,"end":9298.19,"text":"我們都可以認同但是部長窮不能窮教育阿依此特別預算編列的脈絡背景我主張編列特別預算用於老舊校舍改建請問部長支持嗎"},{"start":9299.281,"end":9315.775,"text":"我想我們老舊校舍的一個改建其實也要跟委員報告有一些教授就是50年他還是我們經過專業評估是安全的對學校的歷史、文化、共同的校友的記憶他是有價值的"},{"start":9316.275,"end":9337.884,"text":"所以我們其實有時候我們反而看到、喜見到說當安全上沒有問題它事實上對學校它傳遞了另外一個情感的包括社區的情感上的一個連結當然這是特殊案例你用補強嘛這我們體諒嘛但是整體是說就是要要錢啊作為老舊校舍的補強跟改建你願意支持嗎?這個我們當然一定要來做"},{"start":9341.866,"end":9363.564,"text":"改善。我想部長你不敢要本席要幫你向行政院要錢那基本上這個部分我們希望編列特別預算就是保障我們的學童安全我們一起共同來為他們努力那我也希望你在要這樣子的相關預算的時候不要客氣我們會做你的後盾我們希望這個部分應該要去加強"},{"start":9364.545,"end":9377.077,"text":"老舊校舍真的是我們非常擔憂的一個部分確實行政院在這個部分也給教育部相當大的一些支持也謝謝委員的一個關心好那有請我們農業部督事長"},{"start":9381.561,"end":9405.86,"text":"我想我們也要爭取養奶也要納入班班有鮮奶的一個政策我想我有一些分享想要跟你來做一個探討班班有鮮奶的政策主要是針對紐西蘭進口的液態乳明年進口關稅將降至為零為了降低台灣農業的一個衝擊農業部與教育部所做的一個合作請問部長跟次長知不知道台灣有多少人有乳糖不耐症"},{"start":9408.95,"end":9417.195,"text":"市長您知道嗎?我們目前訂購涵蓋豆奶的比例大概3點多%"},{"start":9418.564,"end":9420.325,"text":"網路上有說台灣人有88%有乳糖不耐症"},{"start":9439.48,"end":9462.328,"text":"有說亞洲人有95%的人有乳糖不耐症最保守的也說有一半左右的人有乳糖不耐症我不知道哪個資訊是為真但是我想乳糖不耐症的人口應該是一個不少的人口所以值得我們去重視當然教育部是說開放豆漿作為替代品所以本來就不會有所有人都喝鮮乳甚至有超過一半的人口"},{"start":9462.588,"end":9467.713,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長鄭英耀及執行長"},{"start":9486.371,"end":9503.786,"text":"章化縣府的一個調查有3%的選擇學校選擇豆漿83%的學生選擇了包酒乳真正選擇鮮奶的也是真正幫助到弱農業的部分僅有14%要讓所有人喝鮮奶來拯救弱農但是只有14%的學生真的有喝這"},{"start":9505.347,"end":9518.248,"text":"要讓是不是有像我們之前班班有時班一樣都是中央喊口號實際卻辦不到所以想詢問一下部長跟次長牛奶跟鮮奶這兩者的營養有什麼差別你們知道嗎"},{"start":9520.401,"end":9536.058,"text":"因為台灣自己的酪農產業非常好我們當然是希望提供最好的乳品特別是台灣鮮奶給我們的學童那目前訂購的狀況是大概鮮乳採購的比例大概三成多然後六成多都是薄酒乳這個是我們現在看到的狀況"},{"start":9537.453,"end":9562.947,"text":"我想說我剛剛問的是這個牛乳跟羊乳的差別我還是要講一下我想主要差異基本上兩者差異極低但是主要差異在於乳糖含量較低造成乳糖不耐症的一個風險也較低所以我想羊乳不管是本草綱目有記載我想以及包括我們研究指出它的一個弱蛋白跟牛乳的弱蛋白種類不一樣較不引起腹痛脹氣等問題"},{"start":9564.008,"end":9580.813,"text":"所以我想幫羊乳也說一個話讓大家有更多的選擇當然我們在整個今天的委員會也有在探討現在將這些牛乳或者是保酒乳不管怎麼樣廠商送到學校再經由老師送到學生這樣的過程當中冷鏈有沒有問題"},{"start":9581.753,"end":9609.925,"text":"這樣的過程當中行政會不會增加更多老師的負擔老師有教學的負擔有行政負擔現在還有所謂的班班有鮮乳要幫忙協助送達的一個負擔我們希望在這樣的一個配合過程當中應該要考量到學生的健康之外還要考量到教學的品質以及老師是否有過勞的一個狀況我想這個部分農業部應該要來極力的協助教育部這部分杜市長"},{"start":9610.345,"end":9637.668,"text":"會後有相關的檢討,是不是能夠給我一下?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝羅廷維委員。部長請回後。那接下來我們有請鍾嘉斌委員,咨詢時間4分鐘。主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府交通事務委員、官員會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請鄭部長,還有我們的杜次長以及彭署長。"},{"start":9639.331,"end":9660.176,"text":"有請以上三位部長好、次長好、署長好部長聽說你昨天利用自己的休假,你住高雄嘛你前幾天有去你家看你那邊棟書磚、那體育的好長跟老師去看這麼好友,有嗎"},{"start":9661.631,"end":9670.666,"text":"是的所以也聽說在這些校友的敦促之下你去看了附近一些學校在這一次風災的受損情況有改驗中嗎?下一頁"},{"start":9673.264,"end":9694.891,"text":"我剛好這個就在附近裡邊那我也就順道這個去看了那發現這個離港國小確實超乎想像這一個我聽校長如是說因為校長後來聽說部長忽然跑到學校去然後就也趕從其他地方趕回來他確實連那個營養午餐等他們的廚房整個"},{"start":9699.813,"end":9702.435,"text":"市長不只部長去的那幾所學校,其他學校也有同樣的災損所以屏東近七成受損,需要的災損金額一直在成長,大概快8600萬"},{"start":9724.293,"end":9744.165,"text":"剛你說的3億6千萬,屏東就降了四分之一,是為權益來支持,好不好?要,是我們來努力。好,OK,那我現在今天正題啦,老梗啊,請問部長,哪一個是班班?是這一個嗎?還是這一個?還是這一個?那個笑容可絕的是威廉啦,不是班班啦。"},{"start":9745.217,"end":9763.153,"text":"那個卡通的是小鹿斑比那隻流浪狗要被總統收養了真的叫斑斑這是我們今天討論的斑斑嗎?應該不是我們看下一頁斑斑要喝鮮乳為什麼要斑斑喝鮮乳部長你過去當老師的時候國家老師的時候學生有喝鮮乳嗎?"},{"start":9765.205,"end":9783.825,"text":"有沒有鮮乳?那個年代啦那個年代確實是物資跟整個經濟狀況是相對但是我跟您分享一下我在當學生國小國中的時候家裡的經濟允許那時候呢學校是有供應鮮乳但是是自願的那時候也不是全面營養午餐像我就是自己帶便當但是學校有政策你要買的你來訂"},{"start":9785.367,"end":9811.892,"text":"所以我們那時候我還記得我一個老師啊國中老師叫曾卓光我還記得他的名字為什麼他是牛奶老師要訂鮮乳要找他你知道我們喝的鮮乳是冰的還是熱的嗎應該是熱的應該是熱沒有錯那時候訂的學生不多當天送來當天喝掉沒有問題因為人少所以現在我們為什麼會出現班班有鮮乳我們班班我們周周吃蔬果有每天吃嗎"},{"start":9814.144,"end":9822.005,"text":"其實呢,我們所謂的班班的意思,你可以量多一週次兩次,量少兩週次一次,這樣有沒有什麼班班?"},{"start":9823.424,"end":9847.239,"text":"有啦齁那次長我跟您請教一下當時我們為什麼要呼籲學生來喝鮮乳就是因為受到進口乳品的衝擊我們希望本土弱農我們盡量使用嘛對不對支持國產的鮮乳並不是說弱農要負責所有學校喝的鮮乳嘛就是學校如果要喝鮮乳的盡量跟我們弱農採購不要讓他滯銷是不是這樣意思"},{"start":9849.262,"end":9877.068,"text":"學童缺鈣要補對缺鈣的話對牛奶是好的牛奶是好的不要緊但是因為學校不見得有冷藏設備所以有的學校就知道採購了包酒乳對不對是部長是不是這樣是好來我們看一下那怎麼解決呢往下看其實呢除了班班喝鮮乳之外還有一個班班有冷氣下面有一句笑笑費發電部長你昨天去看了學校是不是你也提到說未來學校可以怎麼樣加強增進社區的防災能力"},{"start":9877.847,"end":9894.853,"text":"二、是的謝謝委員因為確實去看了以後發現說因為臺灣天災等於颱風跟地震是比較多的那以經濟部的一個供電系統有時候就很容易停電如果學校能夠有一些儲能的一些設"},{"start":9896.374,"end":9899.615,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":9923.204,"end":9945.411,"text":"農業部不是支持很多農產品要有冷鏈嗎?你們的冷鏈目前都在大型的輸儲中心嘛,對不對?其實要分散的,各農會。其實鄉下的學校呢,如果有儲能設施,可以農業跟它結合,也設冷鏈。這個冷鏈呢,農業部可以讓他們平常動一些蔬果,你補助電費,學校有儲能,可以用冷鏈。這樣是不是就可以喝到鮮乳了?"},{"start":9946.501,"end":9967.848,"text":"謝謝委員提醒加強全國的這個防疫的韌性那就是教育部放儲能你們幫助冷鏈學校呢有農業部補助冷鏈的電費我們學校要喝冷的冰的鮮乳學生就有口福了弱農也有保障了好不好兩位是不是共同承諾可以了齁好謝謝好謝謝宗嘉斌委員部長請回接下來我們有請林益勤委員質詢"},{"start":9980.078,"end":9981.079,"text":"鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":9992.515,"end":10012.001,"text":"首先本席想要來跟您關注是我們當今台灣教育遇到最大的困境也就是教師荒近年來在開學前我們總是看到許多學校在他的社群網站上來徵求要代理老師那也有許多在開學在即"},{"start":10013.882,"end":10026.573,"text":"此外,很多學校是代理老師沒有人報考的報導,所以除了代理老師的短缺,正式教師面臨人力荒的困境,我們必須正視。"},{"start":10029.255,"end":10055.2,"text":"有網友運用這個師資培育統計年表中的這個中等共同學校首登專長與任職的情況來計算每年新增的這個中等學校老師其中以國文科跟自然科學領域的科目來看每年新增的老師的數目越來越少我們觀看自然科來看如果各項的影響的條件不變從下降的趨勢來看"},{"start":10059.986,"end":10076.119,"text":"新寫的化學科老師在明年會歸零物理跟生物科也分別在2027跟2028年會歸零也就是說我們到時候的教育現場的人力開始吃老本"},{"start":10076.94,"end":10091.732,"text":"那當然我想我們不要把前景看成那麼悲觀可是我們總是要做最壞的來盤算那我想戲就為什麼這個新寫不願意投入教職的原因我想不外乎有幾個原因嘛第一個教職難考"},{"start":10093.593,"end":10097.918,"text":"二、年改造成退休年齡往後挪第三、學校開圈很少、行政業務很繁雜、薪資待遇不符合期待等"},{"start":10111.692,"end":10123.918,"text":"其中一個就是所謂的行政減量跟我們的導師費跟終點費有做一些調整可是這些好像看起來沒有明顯受到一些改善對於教師荒"},{"start":10125.399,"end":10135.885,"text":"所以我首先想要請教部長我們到底有沒有統計大約什麼時候會沒有新寫教師投入我們教學現場你有想過怎麼樣應付這樣的狀況嗎?謝謝委員關心台灣的教育因為老師是不是能夠投入教育職場我想關心到台灣的教育品質包括我們人才的培育"},{"start":10155.177,"end":10167.529,"text":"我事實上進來以後我也跟我們施培斯特別提醒因為從整個教育政策的一個介入在未來大概從120年、117年到120年到22年它可能還會有一個退休潮"},{"start":10173.174,"end":10196.557,"text":"所以我們整個師資的一個培育怎麼樣形成一個有一些政策包含我們教師法這個師培法裡邊30年裡邊它事實上就是一個世代我們怎麼樣去以時俱進我想確實現在的老師、地線上老師陳主委員剛才所提的他面臨的少子化家長包括許多的教育品質的一個"},{"start":10197.338,"end":10200.981,"text":"提升教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就 «中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":10217.267,"end":10245.114,"text":"我們也常常在提醒說我們原來已經在減量但是地方政府有時候他總是也回應到地方家長跟各級的社會的一個期待也會加碼所以這裡邊我們一直在提醒中央怎麼跟地方去合作然後包含這個薪資的一個待遇怎麼樣給予一些適度的一些支持但是我想我們以目前來講整個這個施施的一些"},{"start":10246.394,"end":10272.327,"text":"他是一個儲備制我們的儲備還是有一定的一個量但是他確實因應因為這個產業結構上的一個改變以及教師的一個聲望我們一直也希望社會大眾能夠大家共同來支持我們的這些老師給他們一個更多的就是部長你要有方法看要怎麼樣做一些培訓心血的方法"},{"start":10273.347,"end":10296.017,"text":"還有你也要面對說到底有哪幾個科目它是會像說我剛剛說的嘛化學是明年就會歸零那你物理跟生物都分別在兩三年後就會歸零就如果沒有新血進來的話那所以我的意思說你一定要面臨到這個是最嚴重的危機跟委員報告包含譬如說偏鄉我們許多代理老師我們內部也我要內部去檢討"},{"start":10298.638,"end":10326.622,"text":"就說我們如果這些偏鄉老師一定要星期六日來補修教育學問那是不可行的你怎麼用實體跟線上我想這個部分能夠克服這個不能讓他每個禮拜從山上趕下來或者偏鄉趕下來就說這個部分我們已經在整體的檢討包含因應世代交替上的一個施施我們怎麼樣有一些培育的一個制度"},{"start":10327.082,"end":10340.942,"text":"有一些更全面的宣討我們大概也跟委員報告大概我們這一個禮拜整個施培師也會跟我提出一個完整的報告就是說你要有一些方法來吸引更多人來加入施培的行列"},{"start":10342.344,"end":10343.205,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":10359.338,"end":10375.283,"text":"我想部長你有在想方設法不過這個就是要趕快想方法然後具體來實施那我想另外就是要跟您提到今天的主題就是班班有鮮奶我想剛剛很多的委員都有提及那這個都是好意"},{"start":10375.743,"end":10397.368,"text":"就讓每週讓孩子可以喝到兩次的免費的國產鮮奶那這個好事可是問題是操作上那我想為什麼說它是好事我們看鄰近的國家就好他們像日本他們有營養午餐就是有牛奶可以喝那你可以看一些資料就是說一些數據告訴我們"},{"start":10398.528,"end":10418.877,"text":"一九五零年到一九九四年來比,日本十七歲的青少年的平均身高,男生跟女生分別長了九公分跟五公分。所以這項政策看起來對於孩子的這個不管是長高、身體的狀況確實是非常有大大的加分。"},{"start":10420.438,"end":10420.738,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10442.35,"end":10446.335,"text":"教育部的能力一定會漸漸上軌道可是我覺得我們看了農業部的報告就是說有乳糖不耐症有些原因不能喝牛奶那我們學童就是可以選擇所謂的國產涵蓋豆漿可是現在還沒有完全採購"},{"start":10461.251,"end":10474.953,"text":"請教是說那到底什麼時候還可以完成採購?有把握嗎?剛剛有回答說是10月底那有把握在10月底就能完成採購可以供應孩子喝這個涵蓋的這個豆漿"},{"start":10477.172,"end":10495.892,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實這是我們一直也這個請地方政府要來加速採購那另外呢,委員也點出了許多的一些問題,我們也會悉心的快速的請這項本來這個政策還沒有執行的迎寧縣、嘉義等等的許多縣市他們實際"},{"start":10497.441,"end":10519.457,"text":"也一定會有冷鏈供應的這個保鮮的這些問題但是他們已經行事了有的已經有3、5年我相信他們的一個地方政府的一些經驗是值得我們政策上的參考我們也會快速請他們來做一些經驗的分享來作為政策調整那所以涵蓋的豆漿10月底之前可以供應給孩子嗎?"},{"start":10522.29,"end":10523.731,"text":"這項政策如果逐步上軌道之後有計劃要擴大供應給"},{"start":10542.984,"end":10544.825,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":10574.076,"end":10590.278,"text":"我想當務之急我們先把目前所面臨的挑戰先把它解決那至於是要向上或者向下能夠有加惠更多的這我想我們也可以對就是供應鏈因為我們有提供給國小的附幼嘛"},{"start":10590.939,"end":10593.06,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":10613.305,"end":10614.966,"text":"教育部跟農業部是不是要來橫向溝通?"},{"start":10642.982,"end":10643.746,"text":"如果遇到這樣的狀況如何來確認有個那個完整的SOP?"},{"start":10648.138,"end":10675.84,"text":"是,謝謝委員提醒那在日本實施這個學童營養午餐這麼多年還會發生這種事情我想這是一個對我們來講一個很好的警訊那目前其實在不管是在配送、發送或在驗收上面其實都有一定的標準那也謝謝委員提醒如果將來有發生這個雖然當然不希望發生但如果有發生的話一定會依照這個相關的規定來做,謝謝好,好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝林應景委員"},{"start":10677.635,"end":10677.795,"text":"委員好"},{"start":10707.113,"end":10734.001,"text":"感謝昭偉今天特別安排這個班班有鮮奶不過今天的這個專題報告名稱真的是應該要改可能變成班班薄酒奶剛剛都提過了這個我特地還帶了這個薄酒奶過來只不過沒有帶那個班比小鹿斑斑我想這樣子的一種混淆真的讓大家有點失望那尤其重點是什麼我覺得我今天不只是委員我還是一個時空委員可以說是時空旅人"},{"start":10734.941,"end":10748.53,"text":"我7月11號的時候就已經提醒過了我可能是最早提醒這件事情的人教育部應該要針對鮮奶的保存設備、冷鏈運輸應該要進行盤點當時張廖次長信誓旦旦地回覆我說會在7月底以前將2600所學校來盤點一遍想請教一下部長"},{"start":10758.896,"end":10766.778,"text":"當時有說7月底要剋校盤點的結果應該要公開嘛那現在到底怎麼樣?盤點的結果如何?還是根本沒有做啊?好有沒有盤點?有還是沒有?現在已經delay了,要不要盤點?"},{"start":10782.612,"end":10804.657,"text":"各位委員報告整體學校在7月份提需求到後來進行盤點的這個事情都一直在跟農業部合作中所以您今天問我冷藏設備、冷鏈配送這些我們都在盤點但是中間因為買設備沒有那麼快所以剛才有提到用保冷袋所以7月底的盤點結果當時到底有沒有出來現在新的盤點結果什麼時候會出來"},{"start":10810.419,"end":10826.63,"text":"當委員所提到的7月盤點是需求,那需求...所以不是盤點冷鏈啦?不是,冷鏈的部分一直以來10個縣市它本來就在運作那如果有新需求的冷鏈,如果是尤其是偏鄉地區,原來我們預期它的狀況比較不良"},{"start":10829.232,"end":10840.018,"text":"那都會地區他不選擇的原因可能是行政的干擾那這個干擾怎麼來協助學校因為有10個縣市可採摘他的經驗所以現在的盤點是盤點冷戀沒錯啦不是在盤點需求啦確定嗎"},{"start":10846.08,"end":10867.298,"text":"剛剛在講的盤點是指需求的可能變化那這個變化因為要涉及到背後的配套不然冷鏈...所以會不會其實你們根本就不關心冷鏈啦因為調查回來大家都選擇75%都是薄酒乳啊到底教育部要如何推進這個計畫我們想要聽的是實話我們想要聽的是你們具體的做法"},{"start":10872.001,"end":10896.367,"text":"剛剛還有講到其實有幾個點我們之前都提過了冷戀能不能?價格到底夠不夠?這個我目前的這個價格可能也低於市價自主性到底有沒有?沒有辦法喝鮮奶的同學我們怎麼來處理?四年44億班班有鮮奶的政策相關的預算到底能不能順利的執行完畢?"},{"start":10897.762,"end":10923.851,"text":"明年的預算我們就要來把關希望教育部、農業部盡快就相關的政策施行來進行檢討跟改善千萬不要讓班班有鮮奶的政策變成政治口號家長、老師、學生千萬不能三書該踩煞車要修正可以提出來希望不要到時候我又變成時空旅人了馬上又來預言未來的發展"},{"start":10926.012,"end":10946.323,"text":"謝謝也謝謝市長請回農業部杜市長也請回接下來我想要跟教育部部長探討一個最巨大最重要的問題AI人才的問題行政院9月5號通過五大信賴產業的推動方案其中五分之一大就是要打造台灣成為全球AI影響力中心"},{"start":10947.003,"end":10968.553,"text":"具體目標包含4年內要培育20萬AI相關數位人才現在整個民間對這個數字非常多的疑問請問教育部的具體做法是什麼?分年的目標如何定定?每年培養多少?明年培養多少?這也跟你們的預算規劃有關嗎?可不可以稍微回應一下明年有多少人?明年培育多少人?"},{"start":10973.954,"end":10990.936,"text":"給我一個數字報告委員我們現在AI的有25校成立AI聯盟提供學程這個待會我會問對大概我們大概希望有每個學期大概有5000到未來逐步增加到10000除了這個以外呢這個待會我就會不小心戳破了"},{"start":10991.977,"end":10994.278,"text":"教育部常常我們高校跟國科會都有關啊,你們是不是有要跟國科會討論?是嗎?"},{"start":11014.224,"end":11032.691,"text":"人才培育人才培育的部分我們會跟國科會跟經濟部那國科會那一天又踢皮球踢到國發會阿有沒有要跟國發會討論報告委員這其實整體的人才培育的政策整體的就是一個皮球大隊希望不要這樣好不好待會我們就來提一下"},{"start":11033.711,"end":11054.085,"text":"剛剛您有提到的這個相關的計畫我們待會會提但是馬上就看到一個非常混淆的狀況我們明明一邊左手說要增加AI人才AI的人才、OpenAI、ChatGPT這些平台的研發就是需要資訊工程的人結果台大全台首學的資工"},{"start":11055.461,"end":11062.089,"text":"要招生的名額竟然還往下降這個部分怎麼會這樣本來去年174個結果今年變成145個怎麼回事啊"},{"start":11067.012,"end":11092.071,"text":"跟委員報告這是因為當時以教育部現有的一個系所言而的一個偵測他跟這個考慮到教育品質所以這個師生筆是一個其中一個指標所以你一邊說教育品質一邊說師生筆結果呢你一邊又說要培育20萬人才AI變得很重要那你教師要如何吸引呢臺大之公所去年報考人數超過1600人可謂臺大之最"},{"start":11095.453,"end":11119.89,"text":"你說師生筆的問題嘛那我們就要來攬財啊結果我們的玉山學者的計畫各校申請件數幾乎是逐年下降而且還不用講我們這些數據全部是省紀部提出來的而且他們還提出了很嚴正的一些指導跟建議其中有一半的玉山學者竟然還是短期交流那當然沒有辦法增加師生筆啊這個部分我們的攬財到底出了什麼樣的問題我先給您看一下我們的條件"},{"start":11125.294,"end":11145.371,"text":"這三點國際一流學術機構10年以上諾貝爾獎結果呢我們提出來的薪資一年最多500萬薪資加碼最多喔還都拿不足喔加起來年薪大概在650萬請教一下部長對於國際AI人才的薪資有沒有概念年薪大概多少我想這個1000萬以上一定要的"},{"start":11150.826,"end":11165.631,"text":"還好 有一點概念 那我們這樣有競爭力嗎?我們這樣的薪資有競爭力嗎?確實現在大學在這個相關科技上的一些人才的延攬他面臨到一定程度的挑戰謝謝部長 因為我是阿宅啦"},{"start":11165.891,"end":11180.63,"text":"所以我真的很希望我們教育部可以跟各個部會一起努力攬財攬財有了我們的學生名額才可以增加我們真正的AI人才才可以增加嘛2024年3月美國AI工程師Business Insider的報導"},{"start":11181.491,"end":11207.483,"text":"起薪已經超過30萬美金起薪超過30萬美金所以我們應該攬財要有競爭力請問部長相關的對策能不能立刻針對玉山學者計畫的攬財條件進行檢討跟調整並且對於尤其是大學AI資通訊相關的科系延攬優秀人才的問題進行盤點傾聽學校的意見明年非常的重要而且關鍵"},{"start":11208.243,"end":11214.059,"text":"所以我希望能夠在三個月內研議相關的結果書面提供的編輯我們也能夠相對的比照相關的總預算"},{"start":11218.015,"end":11243.37,"text":"可以嗎?好 謝謝喔最近還有一個新聞剛剛有提到就是這個台灣大專院校 校院人工智慧學成聯盟當時推出的時候我還發文轉貼我說這個計畫利益良善希望能夠成效良好結果我們看到根據了解113學年度第一學期25所加入結果勒"},{"start":11244.793,"end":11260.164,"text":"本來希望開放5300個名額,現在根據教育部提供的資料只有2500名。我們有聽到您的回應,說只有2400名,到底為什麼存在這麼大的落差?"},{"start":11261.349,"end":11283.669,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實當時的規劃第一學期因為基於這個產業包括整合台灣的高教資源能夠支持我們新世代年輕人有更多的學習的一個機會因為終究這一個AI不是每一個學校都有所以當時初步推出來是2400位那我們目前來講"},{"start":11284.87,"end":11303.986,"text":"我們在未來3年我們希望他能夠再能夠達到有1萬的這個顯課的這個學生人數其實我們有一個責任就是要來協作啦其實這個表格小小有一點微妙的細節齁其實呢你說2400名但是你看齁自然語言處理"},{"start":11304.807,"end":11323.858,"text":"有一個學校最多人機器學習有一個學校最多人這都是那所學校本來的修課人數其實扣除本來學校的學生外校選課的學生其實只有新增1500名喔所以要達到5000還非常遙遠喔跨校的效應其實不如預期喔"},{"start":11324.418,"end":11340.121,"text":"能不能針對這種現象能不能考慮一下調整跨校宣傳的策略或本校類似的課程會不會引起排擠的效應相關的這樣子的一個狀況的盤點是不是能夠請部長來規劃一下那下個學期到底是5000是預計人數還是2500還是我們扣掉本校生變1500啊你們要不要評估一下"},{"start":11350.343,"end":11372.379,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們下學期因為這一學期因為有一些學校已經開學他整個學問的一個採集跟選課所以我們這一學期剛推出來我想這一個委員會非常感謝所有的這一個聯盟裡邊為了提供給這一個各大學的選友選課的選AI的機會那下學期我們會努力我們目標確實是設定5000"},{"start":11374.46,"end":11375.221,"text":"接下來我們有請郭鈺晴委員"},{"start":11402.096,"end":11422.834,"text":"主席好辛苦了有請部長好我們有請鄭部長我再補充一下我們等一下一樣是第15個序位但是現在因為他們調換成紅色漢委員所以我們等紅色漢委員結束之後我們就來進行處理臨時提案委員好"},{"start":11424.502,"end":11438.393,"text":"部長好首先我先就這次的颱風的風災的部分然後再來就是受損的一些學校它目前這個災損的一個程度我們來請教一下因為這次呢其實兩次的颱風包含這個7月底的這個開密颱風那7月底的這個開密颱風"},{"start":11445.478,"end":11459.934,"text":"出估所有縣市學校受損的部分是7766萬但是這個金額目前應該看起來是不止那這次的三坨颱風目前出估的金額也有一點"},{"start":11460.475,"end":11461.516,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11489.087,"end":11489.307,"text":"陳駿季委員"},{"start":11506.576,"end":11511.799,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及執行情形、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向。」進行專題"},{"start":11526.846,"end":11540.615,"text":"提報專案,像這一次的專案,截止日期是在11月7號,它會彙整區內所有的這個經費,包含像高雄,它就可能會彙整這一百多近兩百校,將近1.9億"},{"start":11542.256,"end":11569.048,"text":"目前是202校對全部的學校數的所有需求就會報送由各部門一起統整包含可能民政部門、公園部門它統整報出來其中教育部門部分是由教育部來審查教育部通常一接到大概3到5天內就會審查完一審查完但是審的過程中也通常都是照地方政府的需求除非他們撤走所以以上報告的是那種"},{"start":11570.228,"end":11572.511,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":11589.028,"end":11612.007,"text":"上個禮拜五在還沒有整個災情統計前部長就已經先給這兩個縣市協助了那至於現在慢慢的具體的災情出來之後那包含像行政院爭取的這個以及我們馬上幫他會刊這個都同步在協助將近有七個縣市那如果部分不足的部分是不是還會再編列其他年份的這個預算進來"},{"start":11613.188,"end":11636.461,"text":"像為了這幾天為了要復學有任何急救的需要部長都會馬上在額外再協助但那個協助的錢會比較是為了復學但是像一個建物有突然更需要例如重建的那個會跟行政院的開了這個專案我們一起會來協助他爭取因為我們最怕的就是我們應該要受教的學生他們的權益受到損失"},{"start":11637.862,"end":11664.469,"text":"好那進入到今天的這個主題我想很多人剛剛都有講到這個班班鮮奶的這個部分剛剛一連串這樣聽下來感覺這個薄酒乳有一點點被汙名化了其實我們的薄酒乳呢其實大家都知道它並不會因為它的殺菌的過程而減少它的鈣質跟它的營養成分這點部長對吧是"},{"start":11666.977,"end":11667.058,"text":"農業部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":11671.447,"end":11700.267,"text":"在這裡還是要肯定這個農業部在多年來其實都在幫我們的這個鹿農的產業來做一個轉型跟補助啦這已經是好多年了但是今年明年度最大的一個影響其實就是明年紐西蘭進口它是沒有限額的這個部分所以這是會對我們的本土的鹿農業有很大的一個衝擊那但是呢這個班班有鮮乳的這個政策呢我們必須說它是真的利益良善"},{"start":11700.947,"end":11701.043,"text":"本集完"},{"start":11701.314,"end":11728.632,"text":"我舉個例子來講我們每天都要吃三餐但在三餐之餘我可能會補充維他命C、維他命B我可能要補充一些營養成分的東西但是剛剛一連串聽下來感覺我們這一個禮拜的兩次的這個補充營養補充感覺被形容成是要吃的每天的三餐啊我覺得這個部分是不是部長剛剛這樣聽起來有一點挫折"},{"start":11734.135,"end":11751.142,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實以日本為例它是內涵在這個營養午餐所以它在整個推動那我們這一次整個政策上它為了除了對我們這個糯農的一個照顧以外我們是用外加的,所以它確實"},{"start":11752.583,"end":11769.49,"text":"在政策的一個推動上裡邊就發現了一些更多的一些挑戰我想我們也會希望未來已經有台灣在這個政策推動之前已經有10個縣市已經有在這一個牛奶"},{"start":11769.99,"end":11785.023,"text":"這個我幫部長講一下就是任何政策的推動跟訂定或者是到了地方政府還有包含學校的前端或者是在校方甚至在家長跟學童其實我們都有好多不同的問題"},{"start":11785.623,"end":11785.643,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":11816.123,"end":11819.805,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":11833.61,"end":11834.311,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":11854.452,"end":11855.513,"text":"鄭英耀、邀請教育部部長"},{"start":11874.189,"end":11874.229,"text":"主席"},{"start":11892.254,"end":11910.199,"text":"確實是一個好的蓋園補充所以其實也是一個選項但是它確實是產量相對少所以怎麼讓它能夠在可以供應的範圍裡面我們也來做協助讓好的東西能夠回饋到我們的所有國人包括學童身上謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":11911.505,"end":11930.234,"text":"因為它的量不夠供應到這個大到全國都供應但它相對的來講其實就是跟所謂的涵蓋的豆漿其實是差不多的啊量是少的嘛但是是不排除是不是將來也可以把它納進來可以考慮這個作為一個選項但是它的供應量確實是比較有限"},{"start":11931.774,"end":11935.756,"text":"接下來我們來說一下我們的利益良善國人普遍缺鈣,不是只有小學生,從4歲到18歲都是普遍缺鈣的我剛有說到,保酒乳跟鮮奶的營養成分跟所含的蛋白質跟鈣質"},{"start":11953.704,"end":11981.883,"text":"其實是不分上下的所以其實大家也不要一直把這個薄酒乳汙名化了其實我剛剛聽了我也嚇了一跳因為其實我的孩子也喝薄酒乳他也喝鮮奶但有時候其實因為學校定有同儕之間的一些你知道那個同儕之間會影響在家裡叫他喝鮮奶他可能會覺得不想喝不想喝到了學校他就會乖乖喝為什麼因為同學喝了我也會跟著喝所以這個利益良善我們不希望說因為這個利益良善的政策"},{"start":11982.843,"end":12006.193,"text":"讓原本學校或者是家長他本來就已經有在訂鮮奶的一個習慣把它退掉不是我們多的這是一個禮拜當中的兩次這是我們的好意是為了要讓我們的孩童能夠有更多的這個補充鈣質跟蛋白質的一個機會所以這個是良善的這個我們必須要一直不斷的再次的強調然後再來我們看到就是"},{"start":12007.594,"end":12029.871,"text":"很多人也講到所謂的乳糖不耐症的部分那我想這個乳糖不耐症的部分呢這個部分我們是要怎麼樣來做一個調整現在目前有沒有一個初步的想法?針對這個部分這個部分其實是我們把所有可以供應的品項直接就放在公共供應契約上面那由需要的狀況去做採購跟調整"},{"start":12032.5,"end":12056.957,"text":"韓蓋豆漿的部分因為還沒有明天要審標審查廠商規格所以韓蓋豆漿的部分應該10月底是應該可以所以回到我剛剛的第一個問題我覺得羊奶其實也可以納進來因為其實它對於所謂的乳糖不耐症其實還是會有一些比較好的一些方向的影響雖然它的量不多但是我覺得可以跟韓蓋豆漿一起放進來謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":12060.599,"end":12078.363,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長、謝謝次長。好,謝謝郭玉琴委員,請回。那接下來我們有請張家俊委員,諮詢時間4分鐘。主席,謝謝。我想請部長還有農業部次長。好,有請部長次長。"},{"start":12082.335,"end":12101.812,"text":"那部長為了因應2025年的紐西蘭牛乳零關稅對本土落農產業的衝擊你們提出了班班有鮮奶、班班喝鮮奶那本席也多次召開協調會跟質詢最後決議就是除了進口的保酒乳不應該貼明鮮乳名稱之外農業部也"},{"start":12105.695,"end":12117.201,"text":"就是積極的介入也支持這樣子的一個提案喔但是這個政策實施之後好像引發了一些負面的效應請問部長跟次長你們知道嗎"},{"start":12120.644,"end":12134.594,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心,確實他也面臨到一些挑戰包括從保存,但是我想委員剛才所關心的,因為就是保久乳他一定是我們農業部當時規劃都是國產的一個鮮乳去"},{"start":12140.498,"end":12157.156,"text":"本席也提示您就是第一個問題產生就是價格目前中央開出的鮮乳採購價跟市場價有一個蠻大的落差不曉得部長有沒有在這個全聯或是7-11買過這個鮮乳一瓶多少錢你知道嗎?"},{"start":12162.795,"end":12188.014,"text":"我比較少,但是還是有買過大概一瓶平均大概都31塊、32塊但是我們中央現在發包採購的鮮乳每瓶只有16塊,飽酒乳是14塊以雲林縣政府為例,班班有鮮奶早在2015年起就開始自主實施雲林縣政府採購價是20塊一瓶"},{"start":12191.617,"end":12204.788,"text":"這代表著什麼你知道嗎這代表著我們這麼利益良善的一個政策其實是在壓低價格購買這一項政策本來是為了扶植本土的落農產業結果"},{"start":12207.403,"end":12234.968,"text":"目前的這樣子政策方向第一是單價太低業者可能入不敷出真正能夠去做的可能都是大型的產業大型的這個公司才有可能去承接那小型的落農他是沒有無力承接的因為他賠不起啊所以這一點請問一下部長跟次長可不可以來提高一下這個購買的價格以利保障本土的落農"},{"start":12237.549,"end":12260.877,"text":"謝謝委員提醒了其實雲林一直實施這個每週喝鮮乳這個其實也蠻久所以我們非常感謝雲林其實對於這個支持本土的酪農產業其實非常有經驗也確實已經在做那至於當初定下來那個價格其實也是找乳廠過來一起協商那考量到大概是兩點第一個是因為這次是由政府"},{"start":12261.557,"end":12283.348,"text":"希望每週學童能夠喝到兩次奶,那個量是大的,所以這個價格是由乳廠那邊提出來說但是乳廠都是大型的乳廠啊,你一般的小型弱農他完全賠不起啊,這小型的這個乳廠是不可能有這樣的財力的,所以這樣對產業而言到底是雪中送炭還是央苗助長?"},{"start":12284.761,"end":12306.553,"text":"所以這一點請部長跟次長要趕快考慮一下檢討一下是不是應該調整如果弱農真正沒有受到幫助的話那這個政策其實是在扼殺他們那第二個是政策不夠多元扼殺了這些養乳的業者這個政策提出之後有很多的養乳弱農"},{"start":12307.754,"end":12310.096,"text":"當初是仰賴學校訂購甚至很多人小時候都有喝過羊乳結果班班喝鮮乳的政策"},{"start":12316.409,"end":12341.284,"text":"記出之後從7月開始現在落農紛紛收到客戶的停止訂購停止訂購業績下滑了2至5成是不是可以把養乳鹽納入一個選項呢?好 謝謝委員提醒我想養乳鹽是可以作為非常好的乳鈣來源提供的選項之一我們來評估看怎麼把它納入即便它的量確實可以供應的量是比較少"},{"start":12341.784,"end":12358.253,"text":"本席也再次提醒說今天很多委員都講了冷戀這個部分一定要加強否則你是沒有辦法運送鮮乳也沒有辦法保障學童的安全所以冷戀物流的這個部分請部長還有次長一定要加強關心謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員部長請回喔那接下來我們請洪聖翰委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":12381.195,"end":12386.956,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":12394.402,"end":12421.114,"text":"鄭部長跟杜市長那這段時間我們其實看到了很多在班班有鮮奶在執行上面的討論那其實關於這個血糖奶的政策其實大家都知道這裡面有幾個最重要的政策目標那第一個當然就是血糖的營養健康的問題那我們看到其實不管是衛福部或者是其他的在國際上面的建議"},{"start":12422.415,"end":12439.813,"text":"民眾每天應該要喝1.5到2杯的鮮奶那這裡面關乎到鈣的攝取那可是目前依據調查其實台灣有九成的民眾沒有達到這個營養標準所以這個是這個政策裡面其中一個重要的目標那另外一個目標當然大家剛剛都講到了"},{"start":12440.373,"end":12464.979,"text":"今年是我們弱農產業的升級準備年要因應這個紐西蘭鮮奶零關稅進口的這個問題所以農業部也提出了養牛產業全面升級的這個轉型計畫那針對第二個問題我想問就是現在如果我們從在第二個目標上面我們現在看到當然農業部有提出了一些供給端優化的做法"},{"start":12465.359,"end":12492.925,"text":"那可是現在確實也在拓展相關的需求端所以這個學童奶的政策其實也是在需求端的部分來尋求新的可能部長、次長我理解沒有錯嘛對不對好 次長那可是這一次現在在討論裡面呢這個之前你們陳部長來到我辦公室的時候有看我說他承諾說除了現有的鮮奶跟薄酒乳的差額補貼的政策也要來推動跟推廣這個小農鮮奶"},{"start":12495.465,"end":12510.462,"text":"來鼓勵跟推廣的機制進到我們這整體的制度裡面那大家為什麼這麼在意小農現在除了你對於品牌上面自己的喜好但這個喜好是主觀的喜好但一個很重要的點跟我們剛才講的第二個政策目標有關"},{"start":12511.792,"end":12538.2,"text":"今天如果我們在學童奶的政策都是由大的乳品牌來得標的話這些大的乳品牌也同時是相對有能力從國外進口包括紐西蘭或其他的國外進口乳的品牌大家會擔心這些乳品牌會不會把他手上的產能他灌到學童奶裡面他控下來的產能"},{"start":12539.83,"end":12562.919,"text":"就拉國外的貨來去填補來去替代那如果這個狀況發生的時候就會出現跟我們剛才講到第二個政策目標變成是衝突的破口這是大家擔心如果我所有的這個假設我學中乳的標案都由大乳品牌能夠拿去的話這會有這個擔心次長你覺得有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":12564.155,"end":12582.147,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實在這個政策剛推動出來確實有很多可以再補強或是再強化的比方說剛剛提到的小農或甚至是羊奶業者像我剛才在強調的事情說這不是誰的品牌喜好的問題這個是我們要回應到我們政策目標的問題"},{"start":12584.173,"end":12610.709,"text":"現在大家會提出有這種可能性的意思就是有可能跟我們一開始政策目標出現衝突跟抵觸這是為什麼我們一直在強調我自己的辦公室也跟農業部談過好幾次必須要重視怎麼讓小農的鮮乳更有好的條件進到這整個機制裡面可是我自己坦白說在過去一段時間裡面我自己覺得農業部在這個上面的做法有一點拖延"},{"start":12612.366,"end":12615.45,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12632.638,"end":12644.404,"text":"應該這樣說,其實在整個政策應該確實是該更細緻化,比方說,弱農卻是不可能直接把他所產的奶直接供應給消費者,中間還是必須經過乳廠,所以我們怎麼來協調乳廠在這個對於小農或是比較這個部分"},{"start":12649.927,"end":12665.98,"text":"這沒有問題但我的意思是說到底這個乳廠跟乳品牌他是一個就是只是專門就是做國內的這個乳品生產的生意還是他同樣就像過去現在有很多乳品牌跟通路商他們是結合的他有能力去國外拉貨"},{"start":12666.821,"end":12683.54,"text":"如果他拉貨進來去變成是對於國內的量的替代的話這就大家看不見就不希望的事情所以市長在這邊明確的承諾接下來會把小農鮮奶的推廣跟鼓勵明確的放到我們的採購機制裡面可以吧"},{"start":12683.78,"end":12712.442,"text":"我們來研究這一塊看怎麼把公平的能夠放進來有他的...市長我要提醒喔這其實是在落實你們部長跟我們的承諾喔這是之前他就有來說過而且我們也不斷追只是這段時間我們確實沒有看到農業部花很大的力道去落實這個部分所以市長我希望我們要把這做到重點是不要跟現有的政策目標產生漢格或衝突這是我們擔心的事情市長可以同意嗎是的應該要這樣做市長我們也可以一起來配合嘛對不對"},{"start":12713.423,"end":12735.215,"text":"這是一個大的政策目標當然希望大家一起共同來因應每個部會都應該有他的分工在這裡面去協助這件事也不是只是農業部的事情我一直在強調所以我們希望兩個部會都可以來配合包括來推動小農的鮮乳可以更大程度被來使用跟採購可以嗎好謝謝我們請部長次長會後再回好嗎謝謝謝謝洪聖翰委員"},{"start":12740.338,"end":12742.779,"text":"第一案有鑑於班班有鮮奶目前實際執行因能量會送進學校冷藏儲存問題"},{"start":12756.464,"end":12781.401,"text":"導致學生因食安疑慮選擇鮮奶依願低﹐原要求教育部及農業部共同研議於一個月內﹐比較弱勢學生餐券發放方式﹐與超商或賣場合作以發放鮮奶券方式﹐讓學生可以一週二次自行致超商賣場兌換﹐領取如憑﹐提案人萬美玲、洪孟凱、林倩琦、柯志恩第二案﹐有鑑於政府推動班班有鮮奶政策以便班班保九五﹐"},{"start":12782.021,"end":12797.282,"text":"長期來看,無法有效幫助本土落農農業,與政策原意不相悖。原要求農業部及教育部於一個月內檢討相關執行狀況、經濟如品提供方式,以兼顧政策原意確保學童已用到營養。"},{"start":12798.463,"end":12806.512,"text":"衛生安全的物品提案人萬美玲、黃孟凱、林倩琦、柯志恩有鑑於學校校舍,屋齡超過50年以上校舍高達2226棟,屋齡40至49年亦有6772棟"},{"start":12813.42,"end":12831.49,"text":"於要求教育部應於年底前重新研議提出針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫或提出老舊校舍拆遷重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理,並於8年內完成"},{"start":12832.911,"end":12854.841,"text":"全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作以為施生安全提案人萬美玲、黃孟凱、林倩琦、柯之恩第四有建議教育部與農業部推動班班喝鮮奶政策倉促上路配套不足,原此為確保班班喝鮮奶政策能讓全台各縣市學童能如期如質飲用教育部與農業部必須確實調調查掌握"},{"start":12859.323,"end":12883.517,"text":"協調乳品量能或以推動鮮奶兌換券方式、學校附近超商等賣場通路合作讓政策更便民,以利政策順利推行提案人洪孟凱、萬美玲、林切琴、柯之恩第五案有建議教育部爭取行政院老舊校舍整建350億元進行114年先行辦理前期作業規劃,仍然治標不治本。原此建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫"},{"start":12885.798,"end":12906.134,"text":"補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍．並持續針對各校所提需求補助校園修繕．以改善及維護全台校園環境．優化學習場域．保障師生安全．提案人洪峰凱、萬美玲玲竊其科之恩。第六案．針對我國現有的老舊校舍．屋齡超過50年即有2200餘棟．屋齡超過30年以上則有8300餘棟．"},{"start":12911.458,"end":12930.316,"text":"窮不能窮教育,列冊有案之老舊校舍已破萬棟,原件請教育部應先統計所需拆除重建經費,並編列特別預算方式於8年內完成之。提案人羅廷瑋、柯智恩、萬美玲、連署人洪夢、凱琳、倩琪、黃建豪、廖偉祥宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12935.913,"end":12959.458,"text":"好 以上六案我想主席這邊宣告這樣處理我們今天有六案但是第一案、第二案跟第四案是跟班班鮮奶有關係的那等一下三案、五案跟六案是屬於老舊校舍的臨時提案那我先來處理班班有鮮奶的部分一案、二案跟四案那我們就這三案提案委員跟各位委員有沒有意見好 那先陳培芸委員"},{"start":12970.59,"end":12988.961,"text":"我對於那個發放鮮乳券啦,就是算是個演繹,但是我有個想要提醒的地方啦,就是因為我自己過去在食品產業待了非常久的時間,那我知道在超商的上架費是要到35到40%的利潤,這對於小農要上架來說是非常困難的,因為他絕對不可能有這麼高的利潤。"},{"start":12990.061,"end":13007.356,"text":"所以就變成說如果我們是發放先入卷那最後就很有可能實際受惠的還會是大廠那我們回到我們原本的本意希望可以扶植小農這件事情可能就會沒有辦法執行所以還是希望提供個這個意見來供大家作為參考 謝謝"},{"start":13009.175,"end":13010.016,"text":"補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規定"},{"start":13030.296,"end":13059.626,"text":"薄酒乳跟鮮乳在現場的發放跟孩子們的使用還有就是廠商他們現在面臨的問題我覺得這應該才是這整個問題要去面對的困境而不是用一個券的方法就想要取代那券的部分除了有上架費之外我想要提醒寫這個臨時天的委員我想要分享一個困境就是目前我們學校這一次班班喝鮮乳的採購的比例是那個mol數是195mol它其實也不是我們市面上看得到的"},{"start":13060.026,"end":13060.406,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13089.901,"end":13102.876,"text":"關於這個卷的使用我覺得有沒有可能最後其實這個卷不會是加惠到學生本人而是這個卷會流到其他的家長那這個家長要怎麼樣去"},{"start":13104.077,"end":13128.172,"text":"證明說我拿這個卷就是因為我的孩子難道是要帶戶口名簿還是說學生要去換的時候他要帶身分證或者是他沒有身分證他要帶學生證去兌換有沒有可能最後這個美意也因為這個卷所引發的其他一些問題那之前其實包含那個所謂的這個餐卷也是有類似的這樣子的一個狀況所以可能要特別謹慎小心"},{"start":13130.374,"end":13130.394,"text":"紅線漢委員"},{"start":13148.86,"end":13165.535,"text":"就說這大家都心裡知道所以當大的乳廠跟通路結合的時候它一方面它會有旗下的本土酪農但另外一手它其實也是一個國外鮮乳的進口者這是我要一直要提醒的事情是說"},{"start":13166.616,"end":13195.966,"text":"如果接下來我們全部都用鮮乳券的話那很可能變成只有大的乳廠、乳品牌跟通路才能夠獨佔這個學童乳的這個訂單那這個狀況它很有可能把它旗下的本土的酪農的產能就算我把它轉移到學童乳上面可是我控下來的它原本要賣給業務通路的它原本要做業務用奶的部分它控下來的產能它就跑去進口了"},{"start":13197.3,"end":13221.342,"text":"這就是跟我們剛剛在講到的政策目標會漢格的地方所以看起來鮮乳卷的做法雖然在操作面上面看起來行政部門的行政成本是最低的可是可能會造成跟我們的政策目標衝突的問題所以對於鮮乳卷的做法我覺得一定要非常非常的小心甚至我覺得要避免剛剛在講的這個狀況發生這部分"},{"start":13223.484,"end":13238.16,"text":"我也許農業部了解但我覺得教育部要讓教育部也理解一下說這個做法也許對教育部來說是最輕鬆的可是這個做法做下去會影響整體的政策目標這是在幾個提案裡面看到先無盡我們會比較擔心的還是必須提出來 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13242.526,"end":13269.387,"text":"我們再請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席其實對這個鮮乳卷的發放當然對行政一些人力會覺得說比較精神但是我比較疑慮就是說我們在學校喝鮮奶我們發給孩子們老師可以督促他們在這個生鮮的這個期間裡面把它喝掉看得到他喝但是如果是發放鮮乳卷讓他去領的話是不是真的是學童喝了會不會他"},{"start":13270.288,"end":13270.568,"text":"還有沒有哪位委員?"},{"start":13290.285,"end":13310.191,"text":"提案委員我想我這邊講一下因為我也是提案委員謝謝大家我們一起來提醒教育部怎麼樣讓教育部在實施農業部的政策上面可以做到更盡善盡美所以我想在我的提案跟"},{"start":13310.771,"end":13333.822,"text":"我自己有兩個提案然後等一下孟凱有一個提案看我想我們都是請教育部大家可以看一下那個提案就希望他能夠研議是不是可以多這個選擇用卷的方式來發放那剛剛提到小農我覺得小農通貨這個部分當然我個人覺得很重要但是呢我們在這個政策上的主體應該是我們的學生如果能夠先讓學生都能夠很便利的可以喝到"},{"start":13334.743,"end":13351.716,"text":"每一個學生都可以喝到班班有鮮乳政策的相關乳製品但是又不要讓第一線的老師去造成非常大壓力跟困擾這個也是我們必須要考慮到的因為農業部的這個政策出來因為太常俗上路了所以教育部實行起來事實上有很大的壓力在"},{"start":13352.116,"end":13373.801,"text":"所以我想我們這個提案也是希望能夠解決這個行政人員跟教室的一些壓力那所以過去我們在營養午餐我想各位委員在選區內一定知道我們在弱勢學童的營養午餐的發放上面在寒暑假的時候用的就是券那你說會不會有一些弊端或一些瑕疵在當然是會有的以前也曾經有這個營養午餐券可能"},{"start":13374.201,"end":13377.002,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就"},{"start":13392.628,"end":13392.948,"text":"請教育部說明"},{"start":13417.376,"end":13433.637,"text":"謝謝主席以及所有的委員關心這個學童這個補充這一個鈣質跟蛋白質的這一個鮮奶的一個那我想確實在這個部分我們這一個學生的一個參見的一個"},{"start":13434.838,"end":13456.795,"text":"就用卷的一個發放陳儒我剛才也跟主席報告過因為我們也擔心學生是不是能夠確實落實到每一個人都能夠營用然後剛才也衍生的這些小農的一個照顧以及他的一個規格上我想這一個部分我們同意來做更這一個"},{"start":13457.675,"end":13457.775,"text":"主席"},{"start":13481.057,"end":13481.698,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13508.334,"end":13520.099,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英�"},{"start":13536.959,"end":13537.099,"text":"紅色漢委員"},{"start":13549.369,"end":13569.285,"text":"我自己是覺得說勸的方式就是去研議一下它的優缺點我覺得這沒什麼這OK這樣子但我只是覺得說不要綁死只有在勸的方式啦就很多不同執行的方式去評估它的優缺點這是第一個所以剛剛在第一案的部分裡面因為當然"},{"start":13570.806,"end":13588.636,"text":"有寫到說比照若是學生餐券發放方式就有沒有可能這個演繹裡面也不只是券的發放方式包括其他的可能性也包括在這裡面去做精進我覺得就是第一個是這件事情那第二個是剛才大家其實我必須說"},{"start":13590.441,"end":13607.854,"text":"我覺得大家在談到這個班班有鮮乳的時候一直會有點現在都被講成是說教育部幫農業部執行政策坦白說我覺得這個其實這也不是很精準因為當時2013在簽的時候農業部可能也沒有很想去簽台紐的貿易協議這是為了整體的經貿環境去簽這個東西所以如果當時是為了一個整體的經貿環境其實每個部會"},{"start":13613.678,"end":13629.915,"text":"就必須要一起來去面對這件事情的因應我覺得這比較有道理啦反正我大概做一個這個補充但是就是執行方式上面怎麼樣不要只是聚焦在卷的演繹而是其他方式納入有沒有可能放到這個文字裡面一起大家做一點修訂但是這樣 謝謝"},{"start":13631.036,"end":13657.575,"text":"好 謝謝我想我們的發言我們針對那個該臨時提案所以這個臨時提案現在我們還是希望說因為這個政策太倉促上路所以有很多的配套不足產生現在這個政策幾乎是形同跳票今天應該是在我們委員會不論藍綠的委員都有這樣的一個共識那我們當然希望這個政策可以趕快落實所以大家才去想方設法所以我想"},{"start":13658.355,"end":13681.386,"text":"如果說發券這件事情是完全不可行的話我們對於弱勢的孩童在寒假暑假的時候用券的方式發那為什麼呢?就可以喔所以我想在這件事情上面我認為發這個鮮奶券其實它是一個選項所以我們希望說是不是能夠還是請教育部按照券的發放的方式這個選項能夠進行研議"},{"start":13683.607,"end":13700.229,"text":"如果教育部沒有辦法提出來說完全是自愛難行那我們應該就要用這個方式來試試看好不好那其他委員有沒有其他的想法因為我想這個是我們請他研議這個方式嘛"},{"start":13704.195,"end":13712.562,"text":"那我們就依據教育部一個月我們改成兩個月給教育部更多的時間去做研議那這一案我們就照樣通過"},{"start":13713.988,"end":13716.609,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":13737.501,"end":13738.422,"text":"請教育部檢討執行狀況"},{"start":13755.489,"end":13773.699,"text":"我們先請張雅琳委員我想提醒一下因為這一點就是說因為我們還是會回到本土陸農業那其實跟第一個提案如果都只有用卷的方式來舉行的話就很有可能沒有辦法解決第二個提案的問題所以是不是可以開放只有不要只限於卷這個方式去思考而是兩個提案一起合併來思考這樣"},{"start":13775.32,"end":13799.121,"text":"請教育部這邊我不太理解你的意思,可不可以再說明一些?好,就是說因為我們的第二個提案裡面是有說我們還是要幫助本土落農業嘛,對不對?可是如果我們現在只有圍盪,因為剛剛大家都有提醒到說如果用圈的時候,它可能會造成一些問題,可能無法就例如上架費很高,例如說剛剛講的就是那個剛剛申漢提的那些問題,它就會造成最後只有大廠才可以進去"},{"start":13800.422,"end":13821.374,"text":"進去這些便利商店或是超商賣場等等的所以我在想說我們是不是可以在教育部在思考的時候是一定要去解決本土弱農業的問題而不是只有限於厭倦這個方式你針對第二案你的具體要怎麼改聽我說他是跟第一案一起來思考因為第一案我們已經照剛剛修正通過所以第二案您想要怎麼改"},{"start":13822.458,"end":13851.533,"text":"好那我基本上就是希望說我們在考在思考這件事情的時候可能在思考第一案的時候可以有其他的選項啦對好謝謝那就是雅琳的意思可能就是提供給教育部說在思考這件事情要更周全更廣泛一些啦是這個意思嗎?基本上就是多方思考這樣好就是要思考更周全一點這是那個雅琳議員的委員的意思那還有沒有哪一位委員?培育委員"},{"start":13853.38,"end":13872.029,"text":"我想要針對這個提案請教教育部就是因為他這邊寫的是請你們去精進乳品提供的方法做出檢討還要兼顧政策的原意可是就像我今天在質詢說的如果我們的政策原意是有兩個一個是營養教育、刮鬍石農教育或者是支持國產鮮乳"},{"start":13873.129,"end":13889.559,"text":"那用這兩個方法來看所謂精進如品提供方法應該面對的困境是老師們在現場的困境還有弱農想要達到的目標還有農業部跟教育部你們各自想要達到的目標所以這邊的寫法我也想要建議朝委就是因為這邊您也有提案嘛吼"},{"start":13890.679,"end":13916.032,"text":"你這邊的寫法要不要更精確讓教育部或者是農業部知道他們在乳品提供方法你希望他們兩個跨部會怎麼樣的合作因為這個絕對不會只有教育部的議題因為在跟限乳廠商簽約或者是執行配送的方法如同今天很多委員提到他有農業部很重的角色在裡頭所以這個工作是不是可以不要只有壓在教育部身上所以我們在教育化委員會"},{"start":13917.092,"end":13943.297,"text":"謝謝朋友委員我想你可以看一下在仔細填一下我的提案是要求農業部跟教育部當然我們沒有辦法要求這個具體要求農業部但是就是請這個政策教育部其實在檢討的過程當中你當然要橫向跟農業部那做開會嘛那去做研議所以這個案子其實也很單純其實比較像剛剛雅琳委員提的就是我們要更廣泛、更周全那在一個月之內把這個相關檢討的執行狀況把它提出來"},{"start":13946.218,"end":13959.954,"text":"那我想你提出來之後就可以作為我們這次整個在質詢過後我們的問題點有沒有得到一個解答那你們做起來在第一線的時候能不能更順手所以其實是比較廣泛的希望教育部更周全地做一個檢討"},{"start":13961.015,"end":13989.393,"text":"那還有另外一個問題我也想要提出來跟部會還有召委討論就是你這邊寫法是說因為大家擔心食安問題退而選擇保酒乳可是站在營養學家的觀點或是站在一個我自己是一個母親在協助我的小孩喝鮮乳或是保酒乳的選擇對我們來說都不是退而其次的事情那我覺得這個也汙名化了台灣自己的國產鮮乳做成保酒乳的廠商我覺得這有汙名化的嫌疑所以在相關的致詞討論上或是教育部"},{"start":13989.973,"end":13990.474,"text":"《中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":14004.944,"end":14020.272,"text":"所以如果大家要用歧視的眼光來看薄酒爐然後甚至讓教育部跟農業部作為這個跟地方教育局處或者是相關單位的論述那我覺得會讓薄酒爐的廠商或者是選擇喝薄酒爐的家庭會覺得自己背負著一個很奇怪的罵名這樣謝謝"},{"start":14021.613,"end":14039.371,"text":"好 謝謝裴育委員這裡我講一下我覺得這個農業部你要好好的去聽一下剛剛我們裴育委員講的我想說污名化太沉重沒有人要污名化保久乳但農業部你們提出來班班有鮮乳這個是你們所提出來的嘛所以"},{"start":14039.751,"end":14068.971,"text":"至於班班有鮮奶這件事情如果是你們優先提出來的政策也是要給家長當時的一個選擇甚至於可以說那個時候不是選擇而是給予那現在有了第二選擇所以我們認為是第二選擇那如果認為退而選擇保酒乳覺得有點看了不太能接受那我們就把它改成進而選擇保酒乳、次而選擇保酒乳都可以看大家希望改哪一個字但是這個農業部可能要稍微注意一下"},{"start":14070.672,"end":14071.753,"text":"退而求其次才去選擇"},{"start":14086.483,"end":14115.139,"text":"那其實飽酒乳它的鈣質或者是它的蛋白質的營養成分其實很多的營養專家都講其實不會因為殺菌的過程而會減少其實它的同樣的來源都是來自於我們的生乳就是跟鮮乳一樣但鮮乳可能還會冒著所謂的這個在冷面運送的過程或者是時間放久的過程它可能還會有一些食安的這個狀況那飽酒乳就像我們家小孩其實他飽酒乳也喝他鮮奶也喝他也不會因為喝了飽酒乳他就不會"},{"start":14115.859,"end":14137.96,"text":"就不回去喝鮮奶也不會有這種狀況所以我在想說這個班班有鮮奶我們把它改成班班有牛奶會不會好一點或者是班班有鈣質或者是怎麼樣都可以因為我們還有豆漿嘛 對不對所以這個可能班班有鮮奶這個部分我們稍微可能修改一下我覺得可能也可以做個參考啦"},{"start":14138.5,"end":14160.114,"text":"好,謝謝各位群委員那我想這樣子啦這個主席也接受大家的建議啦我把這個文字改成因為這個政策其實是倉促上路嘛我們從無法完備開始看起無法完備使學生及家長擔憂食安問題而選擇飽酒辱我把那個退字拿掉好不好"},{"start":14160.934,"end":14188.808,"text":"我希望在這個檢討的時候呢教育部跟農業部也可以好好參酌剛剛郭育群委員的建議那如果你沒有辦法做到班班有鮮乳那你要怎麼改那怎麼告訴大家你的班班有鮮乳要改變那我覺得我們都可以接受一併在一個月的內的檢討裡頭你可以把它提出來這樣好不好那教育部這樣子有沒有其他的問題有沒有其他意見部長"},{"start":14191.404,"end":14218.092,"text":"這個一個月內把它提出來可以嗎?而且可能必須一個月喔?要,我們來配合檢討對,跟農業部多討論一下那這樣子,各位委員、其他委員,我就把這個退大家不喜歡嘛,我們就把它拿掉這樣好不好?那還沒有什麼意見,主席都會好好參考一下好,謝謝那第二案我們就照修正通過那第三案"},{"start":14219.56,"end":14238.414,"text":"第四案應該就跟剛剛一樣嘛所以在文字上有沒有需要做調整因為黃某凱委員提案他也沒有押時間所以就是不是按照剛剛我們第一案的處理方式部長這一案應該沒什麼問題因為我們剛剛第一案討論過了好不好對"},{"start":14244.133,"end":14268.673,"text":"這一個我想就因為跟第一案基本上的精神是一樣嘛所以是不是在鮮奶、兌換線這一個部分兩個月內你研議出來嘛好不好是一個選項之一然後兩個就跟第一案一樣的這樣的一個好 那我們第四案我們就照案通過接下來我們來一樣一樣處理我們先處理第三案"},{"start":14270.135,"end":14274.171,"text":"有沒有其他委員有意見?好,我們請培育委員"},{"start":14277.47,"end":14302.639,"text":"謝謝主席那因為這個不是我的提案只是我很好奇我想知道如果我有講錯再請大家糾正最後一段提出說針對老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例要以特別預算的方法辦理而且還要在8年內完成全國老舊校舍拆除重建工作我想問一下教育部那個特別預算應該是行政院這邊才可以提出來的吧教育部本部應該是不可以提出特別預算再來"},{"start":14303.459,"end":14328.764,"text":"八年內就算好就算假設行政院真的提出所謂的特別預算針對這個提案那有怎麼可能在八年內完成全國老秀拆除重建是完成這個部分我可不可以請教育部說明一下謝謝謝謝陳委員的一個關心確實這個特別預算已經超乎教育部的權責我想這個是不宜的"},{"start":14330.304,"end":14357.238,"text":"另外8年因為我們知道老舊的這個教室事實上每年我們今年假設50年8年後還是會有50年所以它事實上是隨時間在滾動更重要的是它是不是安全我覺得這一個才是考量的一個重點所以這個部分是不是也能夠請委員在這個部分再斟酌一下謝謝部長請問一下你是要請哪一位委員斟酌什麼事"},{"start":14359.686,"end":14360.287,"text":"請教育部說明"},{"start":14375.888,"end":14391.112,"text":"就是我也不知道部長還要請誰斟酌這件事但我想我提醒一下就部長我們針對任何一個委員的臨時提案那其實剛才我相信這個部裡面一定有跟您討論過那如果剛剛在討論的時候請您這裡都表達說這沒有問題就是照案辦理的話"},{"start":14395.453,"end":14411.39,"text":"那你可能就應該是有很仔細看過這個案子了那當然這個案子裡面寫的是言義所以這個言義並不是要你一定非得照這樣去執行這是第一件事那第二個如果說剛剛其實您已經表達沒有任何意見那我其實"},{"start":14412.291,"end":14441.451,"text":"突然間您的這個打法又比較寬廣一點那再來還有一點如果您有意見那您要怎麼修改其實剛剛可能這個案子要上來所以這一點我想我也跟委員會所有的委員報告跟部長報告過去行之有年我們對臨時提案的處理方式是這樣的那我想署長也在邊上也可以提醒一下我們過去的處理大概是這樣所以我想是不是我們部長要提一下就是這一個臨時提案您希望怎麼去做修正"},{"start":14442.191,"end":14469.522,"text":"因為我是希望我們可以來做研議啦那研議說這個專案盡可能我們不要去用到可以會排擠到其他預算那假設有一個專案或者是能夠建議行政院有一個特別的預算的方式來做但是一筆專案來做我想會比較好所以那部長您覺得哪裏自然難行要怎麼修正你可以把它提出來我們再來討論跟主席報告是不是能夠請我彭署長這一個"},{"start":14471.547,"end":14472.128,"text":"道屬第二行"},{"start":14486.741,"end":14506.047,"text":"委員剛才也稍微就說這是言議啦那言議就歷來在教文會這邊是給行政部門有一些空間不是說一定強制要怎麼樣這個歷來教文會是有這樣的一個共識所以因為這裡有寫言議那剛才昭偉也特別提到知道"},{"start":14506.667,"end":14535.024,"text":"不是教育部獨立能夠來處理這個案子那麼事前也提醒我們是不是就在倒數第二行提出的後面這邊寫與行政院相關單位合力來推動大概加這樣的一個字眼主要還是前面因為有言議然後第二知道不是教育部自己能夠獨立處理所以加與行政院相關單位合力推動"},{"start":14538.006,"end":14556.713,"text":"蘇董你要不要從那個就是從重新研議開始你把它念完我們大家比較清楚好嗎好我念一下重新研議提出這個引號內的或提出與行政院相關單位合力推動之這樣子這樣報告可以嗎好那我們請林益謹委員"},{"start":14568.667,"end":14596.353,"text":"謝謝主席我想如果比較簡單的話是不是就把最後兩句話把它刪掉就好就是說重新研議提出針對五十年以上或提出老舊校舍這樣就好了就是說後面以特別預算的方式辦理並於八年內完成什麼全國老舊這個這兩句話把它刪掉會不會就相對簡單反正是研議嘛那就是說"},{"start":14597.173,"end":14607.392,"text":"有提到說一次用中央專款的專案的方式在演繹這個方式這樣後面這兩句用特別預算的方式就把它刪掉這樣主席不曉得覺得可不可以"},{"start":14609.384,"end":14636.267,"text":"我想這樣子好不好我們再做這樣的修正你看看就是因為我們都是希望啦就是真的有需要我們以安全為考量防震為考量年限其實可能是次之嘛因為剛剛其實今天我們都有提到有那個30幾年的房子在地震完還是出現大狀況但也有是不是嘛還有5、60年的房子可能今天部長談的他可能有這個保存啊有記憶啊等等所以我想"},{"start":14637.287,"end":14658.881,"text":"連線這件事情我想是可以作為這個次之的條件最重要是安全所以我想我們重新研議然後引號內我們重新研議引號內這個部分或提出剛剛那個署長講的你可能等一下再重新講引號內但是並於8年內完成全國老舊校舍參與中間這一句我覺得我可以把它刪掉這樣好不好那個署長你把你剛剛那個加在那個或提出的中間"},{"start":14665.882,"end":14667.924,"text":"於行政院相關單位合力研議推動"},{"start":14694.827,"end":14717.689,"text":"第一個是我覺得要在這邊要教育部去評估一個特別預算的方式坦白說這是行政院的權責這不是教育部可以在這邊處理的問題所以我覺得特別預算的方式來辦理這個資源要不要就拿掉所以拿掉以特別預算的方式並於8年內完成老舊校舍"},{"start":14719.813,"end":14743.975,"text":"並於8年內完成這個年限的部分也拿掉特別預算跟8年拿掉那剛剛按照署長的講法是說第二個括號老舊校舍拆除重建條例因為是演繹嘛並與行政院或其他部會相關單位合力就把特別預算拿掉吧在這邊討論要不要用特別預算很奇怪啊"},{"start":14745.999,"end":14771.846,"text":"我覺得一點都不奇怪啊這個就是各個委員其實大家想方設法嘛然後去替老舊校舍全國的學生去想辦法那我這麼想啦就是說如果要於8年內去完成這件事情我覺得的確是有壓力而且會有很多的變動因素那這一點呢我非常同意把它拿掉我覺得沒有問題那是不是呢我們可以把它改成"},{"start":14772.766,"end":14787.138,"text":"在倒數第三行開始,重新研議提出引號內的計畫並與行政院相關單位研議以老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理"},{"start":14789.758,"end":14795.486,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就 «中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向》進行專題"},{"start":14809.795,"end":14811.716,"text":"林盈瑾、裴瑜主席"},{"start":14825.844,"end":14852.602,"text":"來研議要跟行政院合力弄特別預算的事情也很奇怪那所以我是認為可是我知道提案人的好意然後也期待說是不是就是有一筆錢來好好的來做對老舊校舍拆除有一些專案的預算跟計畫所以我認為可是特別預算確實是一個專有名詞所以我是認為說是不是還是特別預算這個字眼把它拿掉會比較妥適"},{"start":14855.504,"end":14857.926,"text":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":14877.365,"end":14882.646,"text":"老舊校舍拆除重建特別的條例以特別的預算方式辦理這個是或提出我覺得是多一個讓我們教育部多一個你沒有這個錢你可不可以試試用其他來去做這件事情我覺得這個放上去是對教育部是有幫助的"},{"start":14896.81,"end":14905.08,"text":"沒有說定時你要中哪一個預算你可以用其他如果是不足的話我覺得這個意思應該是這樣子我覺得對他們應該教育部更有幫助以上謝謝好 謝謝郁真委員那我們請羅廷薇委員"},{"start":14912.233,"end":14932.113,"text":"好 謝謝我們其他委員所提出的雖然這個是行政院專門需要來做特別預算來編列不是教育部的權責但是我想在這個地方能夠來把這個文字列上特別預算來當教育部強而有力的後盾讓教育部能夠跟行政院來反映"},{"start":14932.794,"end":14950.828,"text":"我覺得這是一個很好的依據那大家都是利益良善都是為了孩子為了學童我也希望說就是能夠繼續保持著特別預算這些文字在上面那當然邁域政委員有提到或提出三個字我們只是加強了其他的方案讓教育部能夠在原有的如果能做到"},{"start":14951.468,"end":14963.351,"text":"不惜能夠再來或提出這個特別預算的一個爭取我想這個部分不管怎麼樣都希望能夠把這個文字繼續留在這上面所以我支持那個我們召委的說法"},{"start":14964.895,"end":14993.068,"text":"好 謝謝還有沒有哪位委員如果沒有我想我來整理一下我想我們那個大家第一個共識就是老舊校舍甚至於有危險的我們要全面的盤點然後去做一個不管是拆後重建啦或者是修繕啦等等我想這個大家都沒有意見那錢從哪裡來那我想這上面寫得很清楚我覺得我的這個臨時提案寫得其實很寬鬆也就是說我們要研議這樣的一個專案"},{"start":14994.229,"end":14996.272,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":15011.993,"end":15033.073,"text":"這樣的一個修繕或者是產後重建我一定要用這個特別預算來做所以不是這樣可能就是演繹那然後我把這個併餘8年內完成這件事情我也認為可能會有很多其他工程上的變數所以我就把這句拿掉我想是不是剛才幾位委員的意見我這樣子說明不曉得大家可不可以接受"},{"start":15036.195,"end":15060.987,"text":"教育部這邊有沒有問題如果我們就是請你們研議嘛就是針對50年以上老舊校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔的專案計畫來研議這樣的計畫然後或者你可以提出來跟行政院相關單位來研議老舊校舍拆除重建特別條例也特別預算方式辦理之那最後一條拿掉那就按照剛才署長所講的"},{"start":15062.108,"end":15089.743,"text":"跟委員會報告其實剛才召委已經順了那個整個邏輯那委員們也給我們建議首先在一開始講的那個言議事實上目前我們8月8號也提了那我們繼續來一起來努力但是如果後面那個也是言議的話我們個人是認為歷來教文會講言議都還是保留我們行政單位去評估啦"},{"start":15090.203,"end":15111.683,"text":"沒有說那個就是一定要那樣做剛才昭偉再次講了嘛所以他一方面有程序二方面畢竟是演繹啦所以我們在事前跟辦公室或是相關的委員討論的時候有這樣的一個彈性以及歷來教文會工作型態的默契那我們會來好好的評估喔大概是這樣"},{"start":15112.927,"end":15137.842,"text":"好,那是不是我想就請各位委員我們讓教育部有更大的空間那他針對各種方式研議出來之後那他們去執行這樣好不好所以,不好意思,對不起那所以就是那個我確認一下就是說所以剛剛您說要與行政院相關單位合力合力來研議"},{"start":15140.549,"end":15166.11,"text":"那如果是向……向行政院喔其實齁 來啦 我跟你們講你們真的太複雜了我也不知道為什麼你們想那麼多啦來來來 我們中文我唸一次給大家聽齁其實一兩三句話之內不會有兩個言義啦就是這兩個案子你們看一下引號內的兩個案子都是適用前面那個言義啦就很清楚嘛就是說我們請他們重新言義喔提出"},{"start":15167.231,"end":15188.767,"text":"針對50年以上老舊校舍補強有中央專款負擔之專案計畫：或者是老舊校舍補強重建特別條例以特別預算方式辦理之這兩個都是請他們要去研議這就很簡單了嘛所以下面還有一個或提出但我把最後一個刪掉這樣子中文各位應該很清楚了好不好那第一段不好意思主席因為第一段跟最後一段"},{"start":15189.668,"end":15218.123,"text":"有重複的字眼所以可能第一段也有八年好 來 這樣子喔那個第三案這個齁我們請那個誰可以處理一下把第一段跟剛才最後一段我們剛才所闡述的文字把它寫清楚以後我們來我們再回頭來處理好不好寫清楚以後我們把它順念一次讓所有的委員確認每一個字以後我們再來通過它好 那這個教育部處理一下好不好"},{"start":15220.358,"end":15228.382,"text":"好,那這個要教育部繼續處理,那我們來繼續處理第5案第5案各位委員有沒有意見?好,那部長第5案有沒有意見?"},{"start":15241.028,"end":15258.637,"text":"這個就是建請教育部規劃長期專案計畫來補助各地方政府逐年整建校舍所以這一案應該還好吧?沒什麼問題吧?好,那第五案我們就照樣通過那第六案第六案,庭委有沒有要做補充說明?有沒有?"},{"start":15264.571,"end":15280.666,"text":"當然這個我也是寫八年啊,所以我想說如果可以整合在這個昭緯的統一案的話,這個這樣好不好?整合在一起,可是我想要拜託就是昭緯就如果,如果討論我這案我可以先撤掉的話,就是我跟你一起統一嘛。"},{"start":15281.206,"end":15303.802,"text":"好 那不然就把我們把那個第6案跟剛剛的第3案我們來並案處理好不好對對對 但是我有一個建議就是說拜託我們現在正在寫那個重新研議提出瓜虎嗎不是寫針對50年以上老舊校舍嗎所以30年以上的現在到底剛剛有講說不講50年30年也有可能啊"},{"start":15307.921,"end":15337.085,"text":"所以50年這個數字是不是要下調30年以上老舊校舍而且我要再特別拜託就是或無死照老舊校舍因為我們選區有一些校舍是沒有死照的那等於就是違建了那基本上它也有年限的問題也是30幾年啊但是我覺得針對無死照這些老舊校舍是不是也應該關心一下"},{"start":15339.974,"end":15341.555,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15359.522,"end":15376.042,"text":"既然要研議不應該只有50年以上36年的花女大樓就已經正成圍樓然後我的選區中興國小有無死罩的校舍那現在沒辦法耐政補強"},{"start":15377.725,"end":15397.612,"text":"他只剩重建我比較具體先處理一下現在羅廷偉委員同意把第6案並第3案處理但把第3案要再做更細緻的一個修正原來本席提出來的是針對50年以上老舊校舍但是庭委委員講的也有道理因為我們現在"},{"start":15399.793,"end":15426.056,"text":"RC是50年嘛還是55年嘛那專照是30年嘛那所以呢我想我們以就是最基礎的標準30年來看那我同意把它修正為針對30年以上那總之因為這個30年以上就會包含50年了這樣各位委員有沒有意見我們先一個一個來修先把50修成30各位委員都同意嗎這還可以齁好那就這個地方把它修成30"},{"start":15430.043,"end":15431.044,"text":"就是在第三案的第一段倒數第四行開始"},{"start":15450.287,"end":15455.309,"text":"教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議提出針對30年以上老舊危險"},{"start":15475.498,"end":15477.28,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席"},{"start":15501.516,"end":15515.03,"text":"然後兼顧大家給我們這個比較彈性要好好的研議二方面也是三十年但是也加上部長剛才提的老舊是要文獻、危險我覺得你直接念文字就好不要再加其他的"},{"start":15517.102,"end":15528.353,"text":"所以我們就是從這個案子倒數第四行教育部應於年底前與相關單位研議提出引號內然後50改30年然後後面的或提出的提出三條還沒有老舊後面要加危險兩字"},{"start":15541.836,"end":15565.897,"text":"與相關單位研議提出針對30年以上老舊危險校舍拆除重建由中央專款負擔之專案計畫或引號內,然後到引號結束以維護師生安全最後第四是不是容許我們跟幕僚單位再來作業就照上面第一段的文字這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":15566.958,"end":15572.803,"text":"因為他的續寫方式基本上是一樣啦就不重複沒有你就把它唸完就好啦就三段為什麼做事要做一半"},{"start":15575.489,"end":15600.254,"text":"倒數第三行一、年底前與相關單位研議提出引號針對30年以上老舊加兩字危險校舍拆除重建專案計畫引號或提出兩字刪掉或直接接引號辦理引號這樣子後面最後去掉句號這樣"},{"start":15607.54,"end":15632.865,"text":"好,所以你刪掉了你剛剛原本自己講的就是與行政院相關單位研議嘛,是不是?你把這個刪了因為我這是呼籲你之前說的,所以這個刪掉了好,那剛剛那個署長已經有重新說過了引號內沒有動,只有就是把50改30老舊加危險,那其他的部分就是應該就照原來的文字這樣各位委員有沒有意見?沒有喔?"},{"start":15638.56,"end":15639.922,"text":"修正後文字通過"},{"start":15670.78,"end":15681.81,"text":"因為我們後面還有大概16位左右的委員要質詢我想是不是我們休息五分鐘好 那我們休息五分鐘後再繼續質詢沒有"},{"start":15697.931,"end":15709.682,"text":"一、六案他是說他已經併到第十三案把五十改三十案他併到這裏啦部長他就十六個,剩下兩張五齁?只要兩張五齁,中午就請出牌了"},{"start":15720.174,"end":15721.516,"text":"本期視頻就到這裡,謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":15735.35,"end":15762.756,"text":"怎麼樣?你那一個無照使用事實上都是地方前線不是嗎?地方他應該沒有照使用他應該就本意前者看要去補照還是要改善根本也無關啊我們之前其實都有讀腦機因為他那是有些條件是照他沒有記者我們就不加這樣而已但是我們安全性都有先維護的沒有啦但是你講不清楚但是這個問題是可以"},{"start":15763.916,"end":15784.569,"text":"不然我們就看有什麼法令這個折承地方,他沒有改善我們有什麼法則因為他就沒有使用執照,真的有一次發生事情就說近年教育部縱容地方沒有使用執照的教室也在使用"},{"start":15787.609,"end":15794.677,"text":"所以他先去取得史照比較好?大部分都是消防設備的問題嗎?長痛不如短痛"},{"start":15809.073,"end":15826.009,"text":"希望他們中午看有一些委員會不要提選沒有啦,我跟你說我覺得我們剛剛經過討論的時間有一些委員會放棄,因為等太久然後等一下你放心,時間一到我立刻交給主席因為剛才跟主席報告,剛才那個誰在提到說台中"},{"start":15826.86,"end":15845.594,"text":"不是有這個羅委員在談說那個沒有就是沒有實用製造那事實上這地方全球我們我跟妳說我剛才一下去跟他們講因為剛剛那個就是一片嘛我搖頭我底下有點頭有這樣然後也有人覺得我幹嘛搖頭因為我自己人然後我下去跟他們講說這是一個馬蜂窩請不要脫好嗎"},{"start":15847.535,"end":15875.39,"text":"對不對,我說這個事情不要再講了,這個在這裡講不完那個事實上是等於地方就應該沒有使用執照你就不應該讓他用,不然就叫他補正啊地方教育局就不應該補正所以我沒有處理啊但是你教到潘石岳?不會不會,我幫你處理好了,好歹好歹因為確實你沒有使用執照哪一天發生事情?一定是...沒有,那個不能舉啊可能沒有"},{"start":15997.213,"end":16002.496,"text":"好,接下來我們繼續進行執行,讓我們請張雅玲委員謝謝主席,我們有請鄭部長好,我們有請鄭部長請問一下"},{"start":16018.717,"end":16019.758,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16048.697,"end":16053.862,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向 進行專題"},{"start":16066.468,"end":16067.068,"text":"中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向"},{"start":16096.788,"end":16105.191,"text":"到底大家都喝倒了嗎?那如果沒有那是哪裡卡關呢?可不可以請部長說明一下謝謝委員關心協同的這個核鮮奶的這個問題確實到目前來講10月4號最後有一家這個總共是事實上是有9個縣市完成訂購的作業那"},{"start":16124.743,"end":16147.643,"text":"確實因為城鄉種種的因素包括安能保鮮的這樣的一些機制它確實也造成這個地方在整個這個政策的執行上它沒有那麼果斷我想這個都是我們也希望說在未來在推動的時候能夠"},{"start":16148.483,"end":16152.209,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":16163.886,"end":16188.721,"text":"其他委員報告日本在這個部分它是結合營養午餐如果我們現在是營養午餐本來各縣市各學校本來有一些可能也有也包含提供了一些鮮乳但我們現在是等於是外加不在營養午餐裡面的一些規劃裡面所以它也確實面臨到了一些地線上學校的行政作業上的一些挑戰"},{"start":16189.662,"end":16213.678,"text":"跟整個政策、良化免疫在執行上也面臨上...那我想我先問一個重點啦就是說因為目前國務涵蓋豆漿還沒有決標嘛但我想要知道說如果還沒有決標未來如果又再次流標我們這一段到底要怎麼處理呢?因為的確是要解決這些乳糖不適正的孩子也需要補鈣嘛因為重點就是補鈣嘛那這部分我們有沒有一些規劃?"},{"start":16215.387,"end":16222.911,"text":"也感謝委員的一個關心那稍請農業部來補充一下像羊奶也是一個可能是一個選項所以我們預計什麼時候會來"},{"start":16226.044,"end":16248.604,"text":"做好相關的一些後續作業呢?因為我們現在可能萬一就是我剛剛講的萬一還是沒有辦法決標的話是謝謝委員提醒一直都有在準備啦特別是像豆奶供應商其實我們也繼續尋呢潛在可能廠商那剛剛提到其他的選項包括都羊奶或其他我們也都一直有在準備像羊奶協會我們這禮拜就要跟他們開會所以一直都有在準備這件事"},{"start":16249.565,"end":16271.562,"text":"好 那我想就是說因為我們現在這個政策其實已經上路了但是還是有蠻多小孩是沒有喝到的齁所以我還是希望要求這個教育部和農業部針對我們這次的延誤來提出一個策進的報告那一個月送到我們辦公室 謝謝齁那剛剛其實有提到就是說冷戀的問題嘛齁因為其實我想一個我想請教部長還有"},{"start":16273.243,"end":16284.103,"text":"次長就是說我們一個先爐離開室溫他如果離開冷藏進到室溫幾、多少時間之內一定要飲用完畢呢?"},{"start":16286.873,"end":16311.491,"text":"應該這樣說啦其實在鮮乳的部分我們是要求廠商一定要全程冷列運送這是第一點那第二點對於有些學校有冷藏設施的那比較沒問題沒有的話我們是請他要提供那個保冷我了解我的意思是說鮮乳離開冷藏我們多根據營養來說的話健康來說因為食安還是一個很重要的部分所以他大概可以在室溫下保存多久的時間呢"},{"start":16312.412,"end":16332.422,"text":"我們其實建議在打開之後30分鐘之內全部喝完30分鐘嘛,我們是這樣建議是但我想就是說因為鮮乳的忍戀從供應商配送到學校收穫這一段因為我們如果有忍戀來處理的話那當然是沒有問題而是有一個很重要的關鍵在於學校收穫到學童飲用的這一段其實學校現在是沒有冷藏設施的"},{"start":16333.442,"end":16346.424,"text":"還沒有冷藏設施所以這會造成食安上面的一個問題我認為我們這個是一個很好的政策但是我們也必須要去確保說我們的孩子在飲用的這段時間都還是在一個安全的狀態"},{"start":16348.416,"end":16372.438,"text":"那我想剛剛其實也有很多的委員其實有提到就是說我們可能有鮮乳券啊各種的方式讓小孩可以在一個安全的狀況去使用啦不過我還是想要提醒啦就是像我剛剛在會議上面發言的如果我們只有上到超商給這些鮮乳券的時候那可能就會排擠到我們本土酪農業的一個發展所以我們還是希望說在這個方向我們"},{"start":16373.298,"end":16399.603,"text":"一定要去積極的思考如何讓我們的小孩可以喝得健康然後也可以要同時保障我們本土農業的一個發展那再來就是我想要這個就延續到就是其實我之前跟教文會我們有去考察這個營養午餐那其實大家都有說偏遠地區的學校他們沒有冷藏冷凍的儲存設備所以造成他們容易斷吹所以這次班班有鮮乳這個政策的話我也希望"},{"start":16400.243,"end":16428.59,"text":"教育部可以針對偏遠學校的冷凍冷藏設備設施進行全面的盤點跟清查來研擬相關的措施來補助或是幫助這些偏遠地區的學校因為雖然剛剛大家說我有開放很多選擇我有保久乳、我有羊乳、我有什麼很多選擇可是在偏鄉的學校他們是沒有選擇他現在只剩唯一的選擇就是保久乳但是我覺得還是要在這件事情上面我們應該一併的一起來處理讓他至少可以有他是冷藏鮮奶還是保久乳的選擇這部分"},{"start":16429.89,"end":16452.651,"text":"可以請教育部來想辦法嗎?我想我們會通盤來檢討那可不可以在一個月內也一起把這份報告寄送過來我們辦公室呢?那還有就是說,因為其實我們這幾年農業部一直有在講要吃在地在地消費啦那其實我想這個部分應該也是可以喝在地啦弱農業是不是也可以來去"},{"start":16454.392,"end":16474.701,"text":"農業部可以來思考一下如何推廣本土的諾言諾農業在地,它可以提供給在地的學校好不好,那這可能也可以讓小孩子從小就習慣家鄉的在地特色這才能夠回應到你們一開始一直在推的這件事情那最後我想要再根據這件事情再做一個"},{"start":16478.481,"end":16483.605,"text":"我們剛剛在講這個政策最希望就是有來補充孩子的每日涵蓋攝取量"},{"start":16485.12,"end":16509.531,"text":"那我看了這一份報告我們國建署的報告國民的營養調查台灣小孩普遍都沒有達到這條黑色線的位置7到12歲小學生是59%那女生大概是49%但是呢青少年喔國中生喔他是36到40%那我就在思考啊我們這個班班喝鮮奶的政策是不是可以在"},{"start":16510.111,"end":16517.827,"text":"中央邀請各縣市政府來討論之後我們也可以一併的把這個政策延續到國中端的部分呢"},{"start":16527.35,"end":16538.658,"text":"這樣的一個目標當然是很好的但是確實以我們現在的供給量跟所有的問題我想我們當前就先把這個目前的一個政策紮紮實實的檢討然後希望能夠落實"},{"start":16540.72,"end":16541.14,"text":"當然是可以的"},{"start":16564.127,"end":16566.63,"text":"臺米的颱風造成學校受損,有361校受損,7,766萬台幣"},{"start":16581.388,"end":16609.472,"text":"七千七百六十六萬元的一個新台幣的損失那其實中南部有非常多的學校也是受到這個影響那其實凱米跟不管是強振也好或是這次的三陀爾都帶來非常多的影響那我想請教一下我們現在雖然有編列了相關的經費我看了一下我們是有這個教育部在上個月有韓報、行政院來申請一百一十四年到一百一十七年度的一個老舊校舍的拆除重建計畫我想問一下這個經費是三百五十億對嗎"},{"start":16610.842,"end":16614.604,"text":"是的那現在的進度呢?現在已經得到行政院的核定了嗎?現在還在審議中現在還在審議中,是因為總預算卡關嗎?是嗎?這是新增預算嗎?是的那我也是還是再次呼籲啦,因為這個新"},{"start":16636.616,"end":16637.156,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員接下來我們有請林黛樺委員"},{"start":16669.937,"end":16691.223,"text":"有請部長本席針對教育部現在在前瞻計畫所執行的雙語教育表達我的肯定也非常感謝國教署對我高雄市的支持我們從學習的減量、減量教學在英語的部分"},{"start":16692.623,"end":16712.195,"text":"的實驗計畫一直到我們這個校校有外資我真的都非常感謝教育部尤其國教署對高雄市政府相關的前瞻的雙語政策的先試先行的支持但是執行到現在本席認為有一些政策的不足應該全方面的深化跟加強"},{"start":16713.255,"end":16735.707,"text":"在我分了幾個三個部分,第一個前言,第二個目前雙語推動的問題,第三個具體的建議在問題的部分我爬梳有六點,不管是第一個對雙語教育的誤解,第二個缺乏雙語教育的創新教學第三個師資培訓以及引進能缺乏彈性,第四個我們在推動當中是缺乏誘因,第五個重點"},{"start":16737.068,"end":16763.034,"text":"缺乏整體藍圖第六個我們限制外資教授課程的範圍侷限了孩童學習的英文環境具體的正建議本集這邊也羅列了八項好我們的前言在台灣推動雙語教育應該要配合全球教育趨勢在19年前2005年歐盟國家制定的多語言教育政策白皮書所以在爬出幾個國家、地區"},{"start":16763.894,"end":16781.754,"text":"每家地區推出雙語教育,有英文加中文、英文加西班牙等以及東南亞國家聯盟定定英語為東南亞國家聯盟的工作語言在東北亞、日本、韓國也有正式的雙語教育政策"},{"start":16784.096,"end":16811.294,"text":"在歐美國家也針對腦神經科學專家跟兒童教育專家提出雙語教育對兒童的認知跟多元思考是有很大幫忙的可見雙語教育是全世界教育政策也越來越多的國家在國小到高大學的時候採取英文為部分課程之教授語言也就是本席在高雄市也強力推動的就是EMI"},{"start":16812.034,"end":16835.03,"text":"的這樣的一個這個教學理論的落實好那對於國人目前也對於整體雙語教育的認知不足、國際教育的發展趨勢有所誤解所以本期認為教育部應該針對國際教育的趨勢收集國外研究的成果或國外雙語教育的現況尤其是"},{"start":16835.871,"end":16840.557,"text":"每日韓家語宣導研究,並納入雙語教育實質是雙語教育專家的意見規劃整體的台灣雙語政策,導致一些偏差和誤解,造成家長及第一線教師恐慌和不解"},{"start":16853.934,"end":16880.399,"text":"好,我們的問題從雙語教育的誤解當中其實有人這個部分教育卷他拿出了一些過往不實的誤的來過往的資料過時的資料來誤解雙語教育認為雙語教育是殖民教育可是他忽略了在聯合國教育文組織之前公佈的培養全球化公民教育的白皮書所提到的多元語言跟文化教育的重大方向"},{"start":16881.159,"end":16884.742,"text":"二、我們缺乏雙語教育的創新教學本期認為這應該是要逐步推動所以國小、國中應該是由生活、藝能、體鑑課不得納入知識型或會考的學科就是體育、畫畫、美術等等家政"},{"start":16904.036,"end":16916.52,"text":"高中以上才去評估是否以專班不是普施,漸漸納入自然或科學領域。那針對這些學科也應該要有什麼,除了漸漸推動,還要有雙語課綱或課程執意,並導入創新教學。"},{"start":16928.49,"end":16951.766,"text":"說實在這個是我直接就跳了啦跳到最後面的建議因為本席這邊的講是你們國教署沒有做到的你們國教署這邊部長您直接承諾啦是不是要制定我們國家的雙語教育政策白皮書這是第一個"},{"start":16952.426,"end":16956.79,"text":"第二個,我們相對應的雙語教育的課綱跟指引這你們能做得到那第三個,我們要再結合相關的這個國外的研究來包括我們雙語教育的專人來在我們國內辦理相關的研討會或政策公訂會跟說明"},{"start":16976.967,"end":16982.291,"text":"第二、訂定雙語教育藍圖及雙語課綱第三、舉辦國際研討會及教育創新工作坊第四、外局母語教師參與雙語教育實質教學及在職訓練"},{"start":16999.604,"end":17025.194,"text":"五、建立雙語學校制度,雙語學校制度規範都要典範出來。六、落實教育正義,更多的資源引入到公立學校或偏鄉,而不是只有有錢人才可以學雙語。七、鼓勵成果發表及開放教室的觀摩。七、進行問卷,針對雙語教育執行兩年以上的學校進行問卷,而不做任何"},{"start":17025.794,"end":17028.176,"text":"請您參考桃園市教育局,可以好好去參照一下"},{"start":17050.387,"end":17051.487,"text":"主席、本席、想邀請部長"},{"start":17066.869,"end":17068.931,"text":"針對於國人鈣攝取不足嚴重,所以7歲以上的族群參考取量只有5成。"},{"start":17086.23,"end":17104.136,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下再加上紐西蘭液態乳明年要零關稅的扣關對於我們的產業影響非常的大所以政府提出了學童乳的政策你們為期14年總共的經費有44億"},{"start":17109.858,"end":17131.638,"text":"但是這個政策本席是非常的支持可是你倉促的上路之後你的配套不足所以在這樣的情況之下你所謂的政策你的slogan是什麼?班班喝鮮乳在基層裡頭直接給你改名叫做什麼?班班飽酒乳為什麼?部長"},{"start":17136.704,"end":17157.877,"text":"跟委員報告,我想主要就是希望讓兒童能夠喝得健康而且要喝得安全,我想這個目標是肯定目標大家一次,但是你倉促上路配套不足,在這樣的情況之下,班班喝鮮乳改為班班飽酒乳,你覺得你的主標被改了,你的看法呢?"},{"start":17159.278,"end":17179.437,"text":"我想在這個因為為了這個健康保鮮然後安全所以有一些其實保酒乳也跟鮮乳它的營養價值基本上它沒有太多的一些差異就整個來講我們當然希望只要能夠在安全跟保鮮"},{"start":17180.778,"end":17181.199,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":17195.755,"end":17211.292,"text":"政策上路陳茹寧說的希望喝鮮乳但是喝不到在這樣情況之下有兩個部分要去做調整學校沒有冷鏈那你怎麼樣能夠讓他可以喝到這個鮮乳你必須要跟廠商去做調整"},{"start":17212.433,"end":17231.022,"text":"二、國內的鮮乳到底能夠提供多少量這也是你必須橫向的跟農業部去做討論才能夠達到你真正的班班喝鮮乳你把這個方案去精進出來詳實資料怎麼樣精進方案給本席好不好部長多久時間可以告訴本席你多久可以告訴我"},{"start":17239.721,"end":17259.639,"text":"一個月一個月告訴本席你把你的方案配套要拉上來接下來本席要請教的全台屋齡剛剛我們也經過主席大家提案所通過也就是超過50年的有2000棟超過30年的有8300棟在這樣的情況之下我們看到你114年到117年你統計是350億剛剛我們"},{"start":17265.524,"end":17275.947,"text":"有一個方案也就是把50年改為30年且是老舊有危險的剛剛通過是如此請教行政院核定了這一筆351的經費了嗎請教目前還在審查中還沒核定嘛是不是行政院還沒核定嘛是不是是所以有沒有信心要讓他通過"},{"start":17289.767,"end":17311.372,"text":"我想這個院長對這一個老舊校舍的一個安全的一個有非常重視本席要告訴你一個重點因為物價指數的關係所有不分藍綠白的委員對於教育我非常堅持投資教育希望永遠在不能再拖安全是最重要的所以這一筆預算您"},{"start":17312.092,"end":17330.086,"text":"自己行政院要趕快核定而不要只有口號讓民間覺得你行政院為什麼還不核定呢 對不對我們全力的支持老舊校舍的一個改建我們希望部長你一定有這個能力趕快讓行政院核定照顧我們海總的安全好不好我們會努力謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那接下來我們部長還需要回去休息喝口水嗎"},{"start":17340.948,"end":17344.389,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請教育部還有農業部的部長我們有請鄭部長跟杜次長"},{"start":17379.553,"end":17401.059,"text":"是,孩子就是媽媽心目中的寶貝了大家都會去關心這一塊為了對應就是2025年的紐西蘭乳品零關稅的政策農業部與教育部推出班班喝鮮乳的計畫再結合食農教育讓小孩子習慣國內的鮮乳的風味"},{"start":17405.708,"end":17410.47,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":17421.474,"end":17424.736,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17440.968,"end":17469.691,"text":"要如何全台是否全面落實這個部分還有根據農業部提出的素面報告鮮乳保鮮是由乳品紮工廠這邊提出的保冷袋我這邊有幾個問題要請教報告書中提到輸運過程需要GCAP配方確保溫度要在7度以下"},{"start":17471.533,"end":17497.592,"text":"並提供保冷袋的保持冷藏的效果但這樣的冷鏈物流在實際的操作中是否百分之百保證全程符合的標準還有特別提供到偏鄉地區的學校輸運格過程也很長可能面臨就是溫度的控制還有就是"},{"start":17498.633,"end":17506.455,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17518.339,"end":17533.751,"text":"謝謝委員關心學童營養也支持我們本土的酪農產業那這件事情是這樣就是說其實在衛福部對於鮮乳的保存其實不只在製造部分它在運送的過程都要能練這是在運送過程"},{"start":17536.233,"end":17561.472,"text":"保冷袋的部分只是在他離開他的運輸車之後拿下來在學校因為有些學校有的有冷藏設施因為台灣大概也有七八個縣市其實已經有提供每週給學童喝一到兩次鮮乳的經驗所以學校其實也有這樣的有些部分啦但有些確實是沒有冷藏設施的所以我們的要求廠商你必須要提供保冷袋"},{"start":17562.132,"end":17580.055,"text":"讓至少可以在外面保存兩個鐘頭這是第一點那為了食農教育也是為了安全我們知道什麼東西在什麼時候吃是最好的也是最安全的所以我們是建議打開之後在30分鐘之內就把它喝完不要分次放很久或者事實上也避免會有一些食物安全的問題以上"},{"start":17581.296,"end":17604.435,"text":"好 謝謝這個對班班有鮮奶這個計畫是很好對大家早上就是我們的營養但是冷戀物的穩定性這個是要需要就是要有一個措施來去保鮮所以我們是要如何達成這個效果所以我們就是要具要有具體的方案"},{"start":17605.316,"end":17612.119,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17622.543,"end":17642.416,"text":"全國國民小學年齡31到41年的校舍是有9,324棟。剛才我們也有說50年改為30年。正式呢,過去6年行政院撥款的就是531億,平均每年88.1億。"},{"start":17647.279,"end":17661.813,"text":"因為大部分都是要來用廁所的部分但是呢,我們沒有聽到就是說其他的設施要去改變不好意思,謝謝蔓玉珍委員因為我們的時間到了那是不是我可以請教育部"},{"start":17666.797,"end":17692.703,"text":"你是不是會後把這一題的議題給教育部那請部裡面用書面回答或者去那個委員辦公室好不好對 因為我們很注重是全方面的啦不要就是針對就是這邊用好了那邊也要就是這樣子的話就是知標不知本我們希望就是要全上面好 蔓越委員我想那個會後請教育部這邊再跟您詳細回答好不好OK 好 謝謝謝謝蔓越正委員那部長私上請回"},{"start":17694.003,"end":17694.263,"text":"臨月請委員質詢"},{"start":17710.677,"end":17736.174,"text":"委員好部長還有署長好今天要跟部長談三個問題都是跟幼兒園有關的幼兒園如果環境跟管理上都不安全的話孩子在幼兒園怎麼會是安全想先來問第一個問題也就是加油站離幼兒園只有8米的道路這是最近桃園發生在中壢經濟部的確加油站的設置管理規則"},{"start":17737.354,"end":17752.746,"text":"針對小學、中學跟教育站要距離100公尺可是沒有規定到幼兒園我不知道經濟部是不是因為不知道幼兒園可是教育部也不關心這一塊因為教育部的幼兒園及其分班基本設施設備標準也只規定到加氣站"},{"start":17754.147,"end":17777.854,"text":"沒有規定到加油站為什麼更小的幼兒園的小孩子不用被保護反而關是小學中學都還要被保護那加油站為何跟幼兒園這麼樣的近所以部長想問你同不同意幼兒園的孩子比較小需要被保護第二個加油站到底是不是可以納入幼兒園及其分班基本設施設備的標準"},{"start":17780.813,"end":17799.446,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指正我想這是對幼兒園的一些學童的一個受教的安全這附近環境有一個更好的一個品質我想我們可以來比照這個小學跟中學的所有的一些規範我想這是合理的"},{"start":17800.106,"end":17825.153,"text":"好,就麻煩部長要盡快那桃園這一塊是不是也可以請求這邊去做協助否則僅距離8公尺而已一旦發生事情的話這麼多孩子在那邊能夠去救援嗎?一定沒辦法我覺得這個可能要請你這邊先跟我們的桃園那邊做溝通那問題二是不當對待的案件我覺得通報我就亂象重生"},{"start":17825.973,"end":17828.014,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":17848.669,"end":17860.248,"text":"主動通報有沒有裁處為什麼這樣提在新竹的嘉峰幼兒園也是發生這樣的狀況因為原方認為輕微所以就想要說服家長說我不要通報"},{"start":17861.383,"end":17879.119,"text":"我跟你協商沒有這回事齁因為疑似本來就要去通報那第三個狀況就是說根據幼照法的第26條只要是知悉就要通報可是一樣加封的第二案的時候一樣的就是認為說我要看完監視器你有第一案已經還只確定事上是有被"},{"start":17879.699,"end":17881.3,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就 «班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形»進行專題"},{"start":17896.01,"end":17898.491,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17912.439,"end":17926.068,"text":"團體代表比例失衡幼教教育團體的人代表數比較高而少團體事實上非常的少雖然主管機關代表過多接若採取公幼案的時候那就會有問題"},{"start":17927.369,"end":17947.049,"text":"主管機關代表反而過多所以這三個都是一個我們很期待要解決所以上次質詢過期待你們修法可是看起來沒有在認定委員會沒有去規定每次開會的比例所以就會變成有時候真的要裁除的時候兒少團體的一個人都沒有到如果我只有聘兩個人連一個人都沒有到的話"},{"start":17947.83,"end":17950.091,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":17967.777,"end":17979.131,"text":"最重要我上週我的那個TRADE很多的連那個TRADE有來TECH我說我們的學生的體育作業為什麼放在YT的影片"},{"start":17980.305,"end":18008.816,"text":"哪個老師把他們留出來了這麼大量的那我後來去上次艾運去要求下架可是學生就在問啊那老師你怎麼可以把我當作繳交給你的作業甚至我自己都刪除了老師你怎麼可以把我放到YT而且不是只有一個所以我請部長這邊能夠盡速去處理採處以上謝謝好謝謝林院勤委員我想會後請部長再給林院勤委員做一個回答好不好謝謝"},{"start":18010.597,"end":18012.858,"text":"吳春城委員有請教育部政部長"},{"start":18034.558,"end":18060.418,"text":"委員好部長你辛苦了整個一整天大家今天在問這一個班班有鮮乳其實這件事立法院難得有這麼有趣的一個議題應該是一件很好的事情看了鮮乳就很開心但是為什麼好像質詢得這麼的沉重"},{"start":18062.059,"end":18065.232,"text":"部長覺得為什麼這麼好的事情為什麼會變得這麼沉重?"},{"start":18068.544,"end":18096.719,"text":"應該說大家都希望對這個政策是肯定的是有價值的但是在執行過程我想我們行政上還有可以更精進的我想這是我們願意悉心來檢討這個鮮乳但是根據這個調查看起來多七八成的學校都選擇要用薄酒乳這個鮮乳應該是更好的吧"},{"start":18097.839,"end":18121.106,"text":"跟那個口味啦、營養啦、健康跟我們來講當然都會選擇保久爐那問題就是不安心嘛問題就是鮮乳很棒但是呢就不安心啦那不安心的問題就是我們現在推出這個政策太充足嘛那配套措施沒有到位嘛"},{"start":18121.886,"end":18142.283,"text":"那另外一個鮮乳是一個危險的東西喔基本上是一個危險的東西喔那我們在思考這個政策的時候我覺得行政院最近很多農業的一些過剩或者是滯銷的東西喔都在找很多單位像我們之前有班班有實班"},{"start":18143.456,"end":18144.276,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18165.731,"end":18190.552,"text":"我們不會想是說現在哪裡有鮮奶過剩的問題,或者什麼需要,或者是紐西蘭的這個扣關的壓力,所以我們必須要來應付一下,應該都不是這樣的問題吧,是嗎?是,所以這一個應該是一個長期政策,但是我們用短期的措施,一樣的在應付前面的衝突的上來。"},{"start":18191.753,"end":18216.102,"text":"所以這個 我想剛才大家提到很多的困難、冷戀的問題、倉儲的問題其實你這個 如果所有的小學都喝鮮奶 這個是一個很大的商機這個很大的商機 你只要有商機所有的商家剛才講那些的困難 他都有辦法解決"},{"start":18217.421,"end":18218.362,"text":"所以有沒有整套計畫?"},{"start":18236.612,"end":18253.278,"text":"包括我剛剛講的冷業那種超商那個偏鄉都可以賣牛奶的啦所以他們沒有問題問題是我們有沒有跟農業部跟酪農我們有沒有政府要整合一下嘛農業跟這個有沒有這麼大的商機我們的酪農的這一種輔導計畫"},{"start":18255.899,"end":18269.115,"text":"有沒有整個的推廣,如果教育部提供這麼大的商機,他們會不會很積極的想要去處理好這個事情?好,所以呢,因為我還有其他問題,是不是可以請教育部一個月提供給我一個你對這個鮮乳計畫的長期計畫的構想,可以嗎?"},{"start":18275.742,"end":18279.723,"text":"這件事情就是營養三法的最後一里路像剛才講的那個牛奶一定要跟營養午餐併在一起處理你那個小孩子"},{"start":18304.068,"end":18333.339,"text":"不是吃飯時間你給他拿一瓶鮮奶你想你非常危險的啦小孩子晚了忘記了超過剛才講半個小時要喝掉他如果到一個小時喝了瀉肚子誰要負責任嘛所以呢我要講的一個就是為什麼我要問教育部我們的營養午餐共餐法現在很多大家都一直在等教育部的版本現在什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":18335.536,"end":18353.185,"text":"我們確實現在我們也在這個在研議相關的一些還在研你進度什麼時候那個部長可以請問你要幾年啊半年、一年、三年"},{"start":18354.225,"end":18371.42,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們在研議的過程中地方政府在尤其偏鄉地區還有人員禁用大概有價格機制三個議題上大家還在磋商中我們會盡快的送到行政院之後一起來審議我們這個已經耽誤30年了"},{"start":18375.384,"end":18403.488,"text":"跟委員報告現行很多的法制包含學校衛生法及相關執法都在執行中包含偏鄉有關的從110年以來花了62億左右都處理中不過委員講這個很重要的確這三個議題在處理後很快就會在行政單位會有共識這給我們一點時間謝謝還是沒辦法有一個時間所以現在一樣是不知道什麼狀況是不是"},{"start":18406.873,"end":18432.908,"text":"第三個問題剛才講那個營養餐是一個非常重要的問題決心的問題啦要有這個決心解決的問題再的話也很謝謝我再推動的壯世代教育部對於這一個第三人生大學我們8月12號的時候在辦那個壯世代的公聽會那個林次長他有代表出席"},{"start":18434.349,"end":18450.122,"text":"我還是要感謝他,他四個小時都沒有離開,非常投入最後他還做了一個承諾,他還講說這個年底,今年的年底會發布,教育部會發布第三人生大學的試辦計畫那我現在請問這個部長目前的進度如何,能夠如期的發布嗎?"},{"start":18458.562,"end":18482.49,"text":"我們基本上是朝那個方向在努力就是方向年底可以發布嗎?我們年底會公告這個事辦的一個計畫然後114年的上半年就會進行這個說明會跟審查作業然後114學年度就開始會有一個小規模的下個學年度就會開始招生這樣子"},{"start":18484.43,"end":18508.095,"text":"OK 記錄起來我們很期待看到教育部因為很多學校在等而且想要響應像華灣大學現在已經開始有了嘛他的平均大一的學生就五十幾歲了是我們也感謝委員的一個關心這個壯世代的一個學習跟許多的一些相關的一些政策的推動"},{"start":18508.815,"end":18531.13,"text":"那環環當時事實上也是教育部這一個合訂的一個計畫所以看起來是可行嘛在未來的一個大學我們也希望在許多大學他可能要有更積極的對未來的學生聲援的一些想像不要只是在想18歲18歲終究每年只有大概15萬到17、8萬嘛"},{"start":18533.251,"end":18558.582,"text":"但是30歲以後我們其實有更大的一個期待那至少有1000萬以上的一個可能可以在未來的一個重回終生學習的這樣一個學習的一個這個自我成長或者他公主或者學生上的一個很高興看到教育部有開有這樣大就也可以解決少子化大學的危機嘛然後給大學的一個發展的路"},{"start":18559.162,"end":18577.855,"text":"那最後是不是因為大家非常的關注我們有很多因為壯士代是很個全面現在行政院陳時中政委主持的這個壯士代跨部會小組本來是6個部會後來發展到有13個部會加入"},{"start":18580.017,"end":18592.184,"text":"這個教育部教育在這裡是半點非常核心的就是給這些人裝備好他才開始有辦法去就業好啦發展這個經濟也好這教育部"},{"start":18594.264,"end":18615.306,"text":"關鍵重重之重所以可不可以請部長可以一個月之內把目前在關於第三人生大學的醫學可以給我辦公室可以沒有問題好的那非常謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳春城委員那部長請回座"},{"start":18618.429,"end":18635.019,"text":"接下來我們有請黃建豪委員質詢,時間4分鐘好,謝謝主席,那我們先請教育部部長鄭部長好,我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":18643.499,"end":18657.384,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想大家今天非常關心我們老舊校舍的整建補助這個部分那我想幾個細節先跟部長來確認一下這個目前為止老舊校舍31年到49年的校舍的棟數有8324棟50年以上的還有2226棟這個數據差不多是這樣嗎是嗎"},{"start":18665.467,"end":18675.394,"text":"好,部長謝謝但既然書記長表示50年以上經過這麼多年來從馬英九政府、蔡英文政府到現在賴清德政府都還有當然滾動市場每年每年成長現在還有2226棟的這個50年以上校舍要是屬於50年以上的"},{"start":18680.698,"end":18708.9,"text":"那當然五十年以上按照一般社會的邏輯都希望說能夠重新的改建能夠重新的來處理這是我們的認知那當然我們先提到說按照現在老舊校舍整建補助的審查原則你們有一個部內有一個這樣的原則一般地區每平方公尺兩萬六千元也就是一坪大概大概是八萬八點六萬元左右一坪左右一坪八點六萬那部長你知道如果現在蓋房子一坪的造價大概多少嗎"},{"start":18709.858,"end":18729.228,"text":"毛坯屋就好?一般的?一般大概可能差不多要10來萬我跟部長報告,這個也可以去問內政部我們台灣現在蓋這麼多社宅政府來辦的這社宅一坪造價平均就是20萬以上沒有到30萬,20萬出頭所以如果今天這個補助原則這個是103年訂定、108年修正到現在過了這麼多年"},{"start":18736.852,"end":18753.429,"text":"如果補助原則現在還是一坪8.6萬做老舊校舍的整建言下之意你等於說你要蓋新的校舍是不可能的因為新的校舍以現在的造價標準就會來到20萬以上這個不是蓋豪宅就是一般的標準所以你不就等於說讓這些老舊校舍"},{"start":18753.789,"end":18754.389,"text":"佈局長鄭英耀"},{"start":18775.326,"end":18776.507,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席"},{"start":18794.156,"end":18815.748,"text":"這一個保留我想這也是...沒關係部長當然有些校園有歷史...但是單價我們會以實際性來檢討好,所以有些校園有歷史我當然認同有些校園有歷史的建築當然不能隨便就拆嘛當然要大家共同的決議但是部長我想問一下既然您這樣提那您能夠保證這所謂的至少這50年以上2000多棟它目前都沒有危險嗎?"},{"start":18816.869,"end":18820.933,"text":"我先不針對31年到19年那段喔,光是50年以上這2000多棟,我想問一下,所以教育部現在是講說這2000多棟目前為止都沒有安全疑慮,是這樣嗎?解決了嗎?"},{"start":18840.431,"end":18860.147,"text":"在111年之前我們事實上是有整體的一個普查而且也做了一些老舊有安全疑慮的該防政補強或是該拆除的我們確實做了一個徹底的從98年到111年總共改善了這個數字我有你們有發過新聞稿我知道所以就是說現有的2000多棟對教育部來講已經都做過普查沒有這個"},{"start":18864.651,"end":18891.947,"text":"以目前來講是沒有這樣的一個問題但是如果委員有具體的一些我想我們願意立即來做一些改善好那第一個我是希望這個平均造價應該要去依據現價依據現狀去調整不能再用108年的這個金額來面對明年開始的這個相關預算那第二個我知道你們有說所謂的350億的改建的這個預算350億的目前在停在哪?是停在行政院還是停在什麼地方?這個你們會不會爭取?"},{"start":18893.427,"end":18919.236,"text":"謝謝委員﹖因為可能委員的一些﹖手邊的一些資料說﹖也許我們還有一些11年以後的更新的我想事後我們再提供給委員參考。好,部長謝謝。好,謝謝黃俊華委員﹖那請部長先回座。好,接下來我們有請李博毅委員﹖李博毅委員﹖李博毅委員不在。那我們有請黃國昌委員質詢。"},{"start":18929.172,"end":18951.829,"text":"謝謝主席,然後有請部長,體育署署長可以上來幫忙誰?然後有請部長,然後體育署如果有人可以上來幫忙體育署今天有人,體育署今天也有人是不是?好,那就先請鄭部長,那體育署的代表好不好委員好部長好,全體的國人啊,非常支持台灣"},{"start":18953.086,"end":18962.097,"text":"要給運動選手好的待遇也正是因為這個樣子所以我們的政府才會考慮要成立體育發展部嗎?"},{"start":18963.379,"end":18989.758,"text":"成立部會是一回事在這個之前我們國家所補助透過協會補助給選手的每一塊錢都要花在選手的身上這是我向來的原則當初國民體育法在改革的時候就是有不肖的協會胡搞瞎搞嘛胡搞瞎搞嘛好我之前檢舉迷你足協拿假的單據亂報帳"},{"start":18993.835,"end":19011.464,"text":"這件事情你們7月的報告說錢追回來了問題是錢追回來然後呢?拿假單據報帳的協會要不要追究責任?請問部長我想這肯定的,一定要追究責任目前體育署追究有什麼責任?請說明"},{"start":19015.75,"end":19037.144,"text":"公務委員報告我們現在目前大概就是依照審計部的部分已經把那個多益的錢、益齡的錢領回來這我剛講過就不要再講了另外我們現在也那個會計師在查核的部分會在10月底會完成我們依照會計師查核的這個部分我們來做整個行政的處理第一個,會計師還不用查核完就支報有用假單據報帳嘛錢退回來了對不對請回答"},{"start":19040.894,"end":19045.197,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":19061.022,"end":19088.535,"text":"給了他什麼處分各位報告我們會在會計室的這個正確的這些資料查核的資料做一併的處理什麼時候要處理這個會計室的資料會在10月底之前給我們報告奇怪你聽不懂喔不用等會計師啊現在就已經確認有假的單據啊部長也說了啊不是錢捉回來就沒事啊你們還要拖多久還是迷你主席背後政治靠山很大"},{"start":19089.656,"end":19115.842,"text":"不敢處理,是這樣嗎?需要多久?需要多久?我想我們還是在會計師的這個資料全面了解之後,我們一定會做行政的...沒關係啊!我會持續追下去啊!我們大家等著看啊!看這些協會是不是背後有政治人物撐腰啊!我體育署軟趴趴啊!軟得快要跪下去了!"},{"start":19116.994,"end":19143.106,"text":"部長可不可以承諾這件事情一定追究責任到底我想是的因為有任何的違法我想我們一定會依法來追究到底對嘛當你們自己就承認有違法了嘛不要講空話啦具體的行動我今天利用質詢的時間在幫一些選手還有選手的家長請命冰球協會來先看一下2016年U18賽事就乍臨補助"},{"start":19147.881,"end":19165.736,"text":"法院的判決都出來了這個我相信體育署都有掌握啦要不然體育署在管這些協會是在管假的那現在他不是只有2016那個事情喔英俄在在俄山食髓之味完全沒有任何嚇阻的作用2019年冰島"},{"start":19168.695,"end":19184.092,"text":"世界U20冰球錦標賽我們的體育署補助了39萬機票國際冰球總會補助交通費66萬結果每個選手大家花4萬塊去買機票每個人只拿到1萬塊來請問一下副組長這是怎麼回事"},{"start":19188.599,"end":19202.312,"text":"這部分是不是容我們回去再了解好回去好好了解上一次有媒體披露這件事情主席不好意思我只接一分鐘把最後要講的說完就好了那最後一分鐘好就最後一分鐘謝謝主席"},{"start":19204.185,"end":19228.397,"text":"當初2021年有教練家長反應結果你們體育署很會打官腔說單據核銷都合乎規定有嗎?有嗎?請你們回去了解清楚我為什麼說有嗎?來看一下U20體育署補助的金額39萬339萬3你們在上面報的"},{"start":19234.209,"end":19241.273,"text":"八張機票一張49,933元這個數字哪裡來的這個數字哪裡來的為什麼我問這個數字哪裡來的因為我問了選手我也問了家長我面對面跟他們溝通他們來投訴他們很憤怒他們拿單據給我看說委員我們只買了四萬塊協會拿了四億一張49,933"},{"start":19264.42,"end":19291.841,"text":"就跟體育署要錢體育署是閉著眼睛在審核啊結果每個選手跟家長最後拿到一萬塊主席又站起來了我給體育署時間回去了解一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎查清楚喔給這些選手跟家長一個清楚的交代謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員那我想部長也先回座休息一下"},{"start":19294.771,"end":19301.995,"text":"王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員、王宏威委員有請牛許廷委員質詢。"},{"start":19319.022,"end":19340.05,"text":"委員好部長午安這今天我們討論一下這個中小學的老舊校舍補強跟整建計畫一些執行的狀況因為這東西當然媒體高度關注嘛那當然其實本席認為這計畫利益雖好啦但難免違德不足啦所以希望跟教育部做一下討論看看有沒有一些空間這按照教育部的報告裡面寫這個計畫其實從民國98年開始做對不對98年你先聽一下數字98年到105年總共編736億"},{"start":19347.173,"end":19351.258,"text":"那時候補強辦理的動數是2998,拆建大概是1324,這個比例大概是3比1啦。到了106到108年,這個預算是390億元,補強的效數是2296,拆建剩下580,比例從3比1變成5比1啦。"},{"start":19365.876,"end":19385.467,"text":"一百零九年到一百一十一年,經費剩一百八十八點五億,補強的一千三百九十七間,拆建一百九十三間,數字變八比一、九比一甚至到十比一去了。經費越來越少,比例也越來越懸殊啊。部長,原因是什麼?我想它這個隨著這個時間,當然有一些數量就在減少。"},{"start":19391.304,"end":19417.864,"text":"數量在減少我跟你講我在意的是比例啦為什麼選擇補強的比選擇拆建的多因為這個是早期就是整個系統性的針對921大地震以後所造成的可能的一些圍爐跟這個需要耐震補強就按照這個期程去做規劃其實是因為你預算裡面也是有一些規定比如說"},{"start":19418.664,"end":19435.181,"text":"教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立高級中等以下學校改善校舍耐震能力作業要點第三點第三項怎麼規定的說本署僅補助拆除整地所需經費其餘重建工程所需經費需由主管地方政府自籌經費辦理"},{"start":19436.542,"end":19455.776,"text":"你其實裡面有很多的這樣一個規定把這個本來是很好利益的這個概念去做了很多的限縮那你現在講比如說我舉桃園為例啊比如說我們現在就有四所學校有拆建的需求我從你這裡中央拿到4.5億元如果光每一所學校就要1到1.5億你怎麼處理你這個還是分三年編列的計畫"},{"start":19456.736,"end":19484.506,"text":"所以說比例上來講我覺得是有點失衡剛剛也有很多委員有講以前的這個時代造價可能一坪十萬現在已經超過二十萬可是你補貼算下來一坪才兩萬多塊所以其實不太好用那我有看到這個按照新聞裡面去寫因為大家關心嘛所以教育部當然也從善如流有增加新年年度114到117年度變成350億嘛其實是有一個大量增加的狀況可是這樣增加的幅度夠嗎"},{"start":19486.214,"end":19508.792,"text":"會不會又跟過去一樣是只能做比較多的補救而沒有辦法去做拆建這件事情部長我想謝謝委員關心現在確實他在這個中央跟地方怎麼樣去合作因為在許多的這些教室上的一些安全的一個考量他也要必須要有地方政府來做一些協助"},{"start":19510.473,"end":19528.116,"text":"我現在要問的就是說比如說你這樣這些裡面的要點啊要不要與與時俱進來做一些修正我想我們可以來這一個檢討這一個陳委員所講的怎麼樣與時俱進能夠真正中央跟地方來一起合作來改善這些所以我是擔心被你說補拆不補建"},{"start":19528.516,"end":19530.398,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":19552.016,"end":19577.605,"text":"補強的比例遠遠高於拆除的比例原因也在這個地方因為很有可能補強他拿不到未來拆建的經費這些都是實務上你在執行這個政策的時候可能會遇到的問題額度增加我們當然樂見但我希望教育部不要為德不足相關的要點多聽一下地方的意見給予地方有利的支持可以嗎好的好 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們有請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":19585.454,"end":19611.846,"text":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長委員好我想今天我們很多委員都在關心這個班班有鮮奶這個政策那我本席個人認為這個政策其實不應該是由教育部一個部會來承擔責任包括我們的農業部跟衛福部也應該要共同來努力來做好這個事情那所以有請我們農業部的杜次長"},{"start":19614.534,"end":19638.246,"text":"市長本期在6月18號我在我們萬丹的酪農產區就有開了一個協調會當時針對這個酪農的這個產業升級跟因應未來明年這個7月上路這個台牛經濟貿易協定這個案子我們也跟我們部裡面有交換了很多意見希望能夠協助我們這個酪農的這個產業升級包含做一些多元加工那當然"},{"start":19638.766,"end":19650.832,"text":"班班喝鮮奶這個政策也是其中一項那但是很遺憾的是到目前為止除了這個教育部在推這個政策之外那農業部針對這樣子一個產業升級部分有沒有什麼樣一個對策"},{"start":19653.237,"end":19667.022,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們本土的弱農產業因為當然產業是要永久的所以當然不是只有說把好的產品提供給我們學童這一條路而已包括產業本身的不管是從淨零從降低成本從提高品質從"},{"start":19668.863,"end":19692.988,"text":"有序經營這塊其實都是要來做的我想教育部在推廣這個政策頂管真的需要我們農業部大力的來協助包含這個整個冷鏈的系統配置包含怎麼樣從產地到學校因為我想現在我們第一線的教育人員他們也歡樂的是什麼萬一到了學校之後沒辦法按時候的時候造成這個學生的一個飲用安全的問題我想"},{"start":19694.228,"end":19717.82,"text":"這部分也不是只有教育部能夠單方面來處理,農業部是不是可以承諾共同來努力?是,我們一定會一起努力,謝謝。好,那我想除了這個班班核鮮奶的政策之外,那我想另外最重要就是我們教育部現在除了老舊校舍的改建之外,我想請部長看一下,這是我們東港東龍國小的跑道,不然你覺得這個跑道還可以用嗎?"},{"start":19720.182,"end":19741.529,"text":"這當然一定要改善的一定要改善齁學校跟縣政府都爭取了很久但是一直得不到我們教育部正面的回應這我想我會後再來或者請議署有沒有這甘不走向我們的安全還有很多我們社區的長輩都要這樣的跑道上面來運動來休閒"},{"start":19745.731,"end":19772.48,"text":"因為它確實是已經到需要改善的一個程度了好 那我也跟部長報告一下也請國部長我們屏東縣目前還有43所的學校需要整修那預算大概需要5.5億元那以屏東縣政府目前的財政狀況沒辦法完全負擔那請教部長是不是可以在這一兩年之內我們來做全面的一個盤點來做一個全面的改善"},{"start":19773.737,"end":19795.005,"text":"是否可以請部長正面答覆目前體育署也在收案期間那會整體來評估然後來協助地方來做改善部長那個體育署我們都問過了他的經費都用料而已啦這部隊也要想辦法要怎麼改革要不然這樣下去不是辦法"},{"start":19799.022,"end":19813.279,"text":"我想我們會在114年以邊來納入來優先來做改善那另外最後一個部分就是針對我們屏東縣有待整理的這個老舊廁所總共有112間學校"},{"start":19814.48,"end":19814.7,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":19835.684,"end":19836.324,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":19865.319,"end":19865.922,"text":"鄭英耀及農業部部長"},{"start":19871.178,"end":19895.12,"text":"委員好部長好今天教育部跟農業部一起來報告班班有鮮奶執行情形那這項政策7月份提出說開學9月1號上路讓全國公立國小及其公參之附設幼兒園每週可喝到兩次鮮奶一學期44次但其實很多學生到現在一口鮮奶也沒喝到"},{"start":19895.82,"end":19917.334,"text":"那我想請教部長既然是班班有鮮乳為什麼全國各校大多是選擇薄酒乳根據媒體統計有九成的北區學校勾選薄酒乳中區七成南區跟東區也超過六成這是班班有鮮乳嗎還是說乾脆請教育部改成班班有薄酒乳"},{"start":19919.09,"end":19935.408,"text":"我想這一個確實在整個班班有鮮乳我們當然還是希望有一個更健康的一個鮮乳可以喝更做不到啊沒做到啊我想我們也確實內部也在做許多的檢討"},{"start":19937.845,"end":19959.13,"text":"這件事情就可以看到我們的整個政策協調部分要花的功夫還非常多就看到教師團體跟家長團體反應得標的乳品廠商只負責將乳品送到學校不負責分送各班那學校又沒有能力保藏、冷藏鮮乳一送到學校所以"},{"start":19959.77,"end":19959.89,"text":"以臺北市為例"},{"start":19977.071,"end":19999.032,"text":"北市教育局統計有高達九成以上的學校因為沒有冷藏設備所以擔心保鮮問題所以寧可放棄營養價值相對比較高的鮮乳而要選擇保酒乳那保酒乳廠商則表示只能滿足五成需求因為不知道班班喝鮮乳的政策會延續到什麼時候也很難再投入設備加開生產線所以"},{"start":20001.795,"end":20010.548,"text":"我要跟部長說就是說基本上你就發現整個政策溝通協調從上到下都是一團糟配套都沒做好嘛 對不對"},{"start":20012.452,"end":20040.342,"text":"所以我想我們確實需要有一些整個過程上運送所有的這個程序確實有這個精進的空間有一句說降帥無能累死三九不想用那麼重的話講了但確實如果說你今天政策思考不夠細緻思考失當你就會發現你的政策目標達到了沒有沒有達到嘛班班有鮮乳沒達到嘛對不對目前嘛"},{"start":20041.209,"end":20062.054,"text":"目前確實還有一些這個挑戰不是一些啊 大得很啊不但沒達到 然後呢你還把這個學校、校方、老師、學生累得半死你連基礎設施的評估有沒有做 教育部有鮮乳總要有什麼你知道班班有鮮乳的前提班班要有什麼"},{"start":20063.493,"end":20082.805,"text":"有一些保鮮的一些相關的一些設施冰箱啊保鮮啊 對不對所以你不是說今天倉促推一個班班有鮮乳你先至少先做到校校有保鮮保持冷藏鮮乳的冰箱要有吧所以因此這是我剛剛講就是說那請問你現在還要繼續推班班有鮮乳嗎要不要繼續推"},{"start":20088.188,"end":20107.911,"text":"我想我們會努力來改善那請問冷藏設備怎麼解決?每個學校要不要補助設置冰箱?那設置到什麼程度?到學校的部分,設備部分教育部你要擔多一點責任我只問你要不要班班有冰箱?要不要?"},{"start":20108.735,"end":20128.004,"text":"我想至少從學校裡面優先來改善這是可能的改善什麼設備啊就是這一個冷藏設備相關的設備因為時間有限重建的部分校園的校舍問題我會另外用書面的再發給您好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅志強委員那我們請部長先回座"},{"start":20131.176,"end":20150.555,"text":"邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在陳亭飛委員、陳提芬委員、陳提芬委員不在徐曉欣委員、徐曉欣委員、徐曉欣委員不在賴世保委員、賴世保委員、賴世保委員不在何信淳委員、何信淳委員、何信淳委員不在吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員不在"},{"start":20151.395,"end":20174.887,"text":"蘇慶泉委員、蘇慶前委員、蘇慶泉委員不在高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在廖偉祥委員、廖偉祥委員、廖偉祥委員不在謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員不在蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":20178.774,"end":20195.755,"text":"報告委員,今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。另有吳佩奕委員、高金素美委員、林倩琦委員、李燕秀委員提出書面質詢。"},{"start":20204.816,"end":20229.049,"text":"關於今天會議我們作成以下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面來答覆報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝"},{"start":20240.142,"end":20240.162,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":20268.724,"end":20276.112,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長陳駿季列席就:「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向 進行專題"},{"start":20286.926,"end":20293.39,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":20308.38,"end":20316.507,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:31:40 - 14:09:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}