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陳主任內政部警政署李振曉副署長警政部今天兩頭跑嘛好幾個委員會都有謝謝你們刑事警察局黃任聰副局長金管會邱淑珍副主委謝謝你銀行局林志吉副局長"},{"start":2107.192,"end":2124.47,"text":"政期會、政期局、證券期貨局黃厚明副局長以上是我們各單位的列席人員本次會議邀請數位部長、NCC代理主委"},{"start":2125.515,"end":2137.366,"text":"行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、刑事警察局及金管會委員就我國打詐成效與防制．進行專題報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":2143.503,"end":2156.049,"text":"接下來我們請列席機關來報告那我們也希望說如果你有完整的書面報告把它稍微精簡重點化一點首先第一位請數位部黃燕南部長報告"},{"start":2166.457,"end":2184.26,"text":"主席、各位委員今天應邀列席交通委員會就數位發展部以下簡稱速發部打詐業務成效跟防制提出報告並就此向各位委員請議請各位委員不吝示教"},{"start":2185.879,"end":2207.99,"text":"數發部作為數位經濟相關的產業的主管機關依行政院112年5月10日通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版主辦加強電商業者資安維護防制第三方支付詐騙防制遊戲點數成為詐騙工具及協辦建立惡意簡訊男主機制的策略外"},{"start":2215.553,"end":2239.714,"text":"為加強防詐措施我們在更於113年7月12日立法院三讀通過總統113年7月31日公布的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例以下簡稱打詐專法納入四個主要的業者一個就是網路廣告平台業者第三方支付"},{"start":2241.296,"end":2243.5,"text":"支付服務業、電商業、網路連線遊戲業、標籌業者落實防詐措施,達到減少接觸、減少誤信、減少損害三個目標。"},{"start":2257.99,"end":2287.424,"text":"此外,配合行政院在1月起實施的打詐綱領2.0版明年1月起實施打詐綱領2.0版速發部已經啟動研修作業,延續打詐綱領1.5版的四詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐的四大面向以外,將新增防詐的面向由速發部主責,豈能就數位經濟所產生源頭的防止詐欺犯罪危害以下就具體措施說明如下"},{"start":2289.099,"end":2294.47,"text":"四個業者,第一個大類就是網路廣告平台業者這裡面我們有第一個就是"},{"start":2296.479,"end":2321.765,"text":"對於打詐、裝潢、納管的業者我們要公告首先已經公告了所謂符合一定規模的網路廣告平台業者目前公告的是在9月16日的時候我們公告有4個平台商有6個所謂的平台是符合這個我們的所謂的這個廣告的這個規模的業者那這裡面包括Google跟YouTube"},{"start":2322.325,"end":2339.117,"text":"還有這個LINE還有META裡面的Facebook跟Instagram還有TikTok總共有4個業者6個平台是被納管那在這個納管之後我們要求再根據打詐專法第29條第一項的境外業者"},{"start":2343.42,"end":2363.234,"text":"在規定在今年就是在這個月的10月31日以前要以書面指定法律代表並向速發部提出法律代表的姓名、名稱、住所、事務所或營業所、電話及電子郵件信箱以後會根據這個打詐的這個詐欺的風險變化我們會適時調整更新這個業者的名單"},{"start":2368.567,"end":2394.837,"text":"第二個工作是我們會研究相關的執法打詐狀法的相關執法這裡面會要求業者要做這個業者這個廣告商跟廣告投放商的身份認證機跟這個透明度的一些報告然後呢也要這個在預定在這個業執法的公告會在11月3年12月30日以前完成公告建立更安全的網路廣告環境"},{"start":2396.097,"end":2412.324,"text":"第二個大項就是我們開發了一個工具叫做網路詐騙通報查詢網出發部就根據這個詐騙的樣態分析我們每天用AI用各項技術去巡檢可以發現5000到10000個所謂的詐騙廣告這個通報查詢網可以讓民眾查詢、通告"},{"start":2421.007,"end":2437.228,"text":"那可以再下載這個APP,我們目前APP已經在目前9月30號的Beta版已經公告提供民眾下載來使用那另外就是我們對偽冒名人的網路詐騙廣告"},{"start":2440.452,"end":2457.191,"text":"蘇發部在5月下旬成立公眾人物訪詐通報專用信箱目前有240個民人建立通報管道加速偽冒名人廣告的下架機制蘇發部在"},{"start":2459.248,"end":2463.712,"text":"12月在12年12月29號就開始詐騙樣態分析113年5月啟動公眾人物反詐騙通報專用郵箱經過這個到113年9月底為止通報網路平台詐騙廣告跟粉絲廣告已經下架了"},{"start":2478.783,"end":2499.872,"text":"下架到10月已經下架了5萬多筆那在整體金融投資的掃描的案件裡面113年我們在最多是最多曾經有8萬多筆的假的金融投資廣告到113年9月已經下降到1萬4千多筆大概下降至少80%"},{"start":2501.392,"end":2510.804,"text":"身份冒充,就是冒充名人的廣告、詐騙廣告,113年單週最高曾經到4萬多件,現在已經下降到1139月大概是7,448件。"},{"start":2513.157,"end":2536.974,"text":"那第二大類是電商業者電商業者主要我們是加強電商的治安維護措施那這裡面包括就是包括建立電商的行政檢查確定他們有足夠的治安的防護然後也在這裡面對治安做集合然後確定他們能夠加入這個我們的治安的防護的一個標準那在這個成效就是在"},{"start":2537.854,"end":2547.189,"text":"目前112年在目前165的全民防騙網的公告風險賣場裡面已經沒有所謂的大型電商平台"},{"start":2548.035,"end":2561.403,"text":"那第三大類是線上遊戲業那主要我們用的技術是就是我們會督促業者做端點的這個所謂資安的驗證就OTP的驗證機制然後呢線上遊戲端督促業者針對遊戲帳號進行儲值監控跟遊戲異常的監控那推動所謂的點數儲值入點延遲入點"},{"start":2576.781,"end":2599.349,"text":"並搭配點數防詐鎖卡平台讓玩家發現被詐騙的時候可以到平台進行點數鎖定用這樣的一個機制我們目前看到的是過去在112年最多有一個月1600件的詐騙目前已經降到一個月大概是100到300件的詐騙那第四大類是第三方的支付業者"},{"start":2600.149,"end":2626.283,"text":"那這個業者裡面第一個我們用洗錢防制法要求第三方支付落實法尊我們速發部已經查核41家的所謂第三方支付業者那在目前這個在EAO經營面我們要求跟金融網絡達成共識在金融銀行將會對所謂的高風險業者不再提供虛擬帳戶服務"},{"start":2628.192,"end":2640.077,"text":"要求業者要提供燃料登錄那目前登錄有86家目前來申請登錄有86家通過66家那在行政的協助面"},{"start":2641.677,"end":2666.578,"text":"在113年3月上線第三方支付業者虛擬帳號查詢平台、匯整能量登錄、公告業者虛擬帳號銀行代碼等,並建立業者跟警檢調單位的快速溝通管道。在113年9月32日已經查詢了2萬6千多筆,整體流程從過去的7天到30天縮短成1天乘3天,加速圈存受詐的款項,降低民眾的損害。"},{"start":2669.451,"end":2696.002,"text":"再來就是我們要求打詐裝潢要求第三方業者的一些防詐措施發現設詐設詐客戶的後我們會延後撥款跟拒絕業務往來並透過保存紀錄與同業聯防通報與防堵犯罪者繼續利用第三方支付來從事詐欺行動那蘇發部在113年9月27日完成第三方支付"},{"start":2698.337,"end":2721.793,"text":"業務儀式設詐客戶認定及控管措施辦法將會在已經公告作業將在113年12月30日前發布實施以利業者遵循另外就是我們在技術發展我們也發展了一些技術讓其他單位跟政府其他單位可以使用一個就是我們推出111端碼簡訊服務那這個111端碼簡訊服務"},{"start":2725.413,"end":2732.276,"text":"讓民眾可以辨識公部門簡訊．降低民眾遭受政府資訊詐騙風險．到113年9月底．已經有331個機關使用．發送超過將近4000萬的簡訊．另外就是我們也推動了三頁檢碼簡訊的服務．"},{"start":2744.1,"end":2760.813,"text":"為防堵詐騙集團偽冒企業檢訊,我們速發部跟協調電信事業確保商業檢碼充足無虞,並與協助攔阻與商業檢碼相同的境內境外的語音或檢訊,並要求系統業者取得治安相關的認證。"},{"start":2762.074,"end":2779.619,"text":"目前已經有富邦人壽跟國泰人壽推出68999、68168等無碼的商業簡訊電信業者中華電信推出123、遠傳推出888、台哥大推出935、六碼短碼簡訊降低民眾遭假冒簡訊詐騙的風險"},{"start":2782.677,"end":2799.384,"text":"一夜市的廣告的藍組由臺灣網路資訊中心成立了DNSRPG的一個自律機制過去我們經過DNSRPG機制的屏蔽及詐騙恐怕我們共藍組了23,588個假冒網站的網站另外就是發展AI技術防止詐騙手法"},{"start":2812.285,"end":2826.369,"text":"蘇發部研發補助AI的技術用於主詐的功能從銀行端補助富邦銀行1、2年透過鷹眼防詐系統成功攬主詐騙共有將559件主詐金額超過24.3億元"},{"start":2837.284,"end":2857.598,"text":"打擊詐欺為我國首要任務之一．各機關正透過政策工具．機關間彼此合作、公私協力、協作．豈能降低詐騙的發生．訴發部與內政部、通常會、金管會．法務部等單位共同組成聯合防線．並針對各種詐騙手法及態樣．"},{"start":2860.78,"end":2888.715,"text":"持續滾動檢討、精進各項措施、積極防治亦協助民眾、產業各部會及檢警調導入數位科技及資訊安全等技術應用聯合各方防堵詐騙集團以上報告進行指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝王部長"},{"start":2892.285,"end":2908.328,"text":"在報告之前因為我們有看到我們9月20號第一次這個會期第一次院會針對於我們NCC代理主委的一個備詢資格我們的院長有才事當然主要才事的一個精神是"},{"start":2909.445,"end":2911.146,"text":"我建議就坐在位置報告尤其是投保會"},{"start":2940.209,"end":2949.114,"text":"這個部分因為還沒有明確還沒有明確以前我還是建議都坐在位置報告就好"},{"start":2958.136,"end":2975.649,"text":"這個部分我是建議這樣啦因為確確實實不管是那個翁副主委、代主委或者所有的人最以通保會所有的作為、硬作為而未作為行政院也沒有明確化職務以前"},{"start":2976.77,"end":2998.785,"text":"所以你要報告就在這裡報告就坐在位置報告這樣一樣你上台跟一樣不能主任秘書來代理主委這一點我本席是只反對意見所以你要報告在這裡報告因為單位也太多不要耽擱大家的時間因為身份未明確就包括"},{"start":2999.525,"end":3016.795,"text":"NCC通報會所有的人通通都是有質疑的所以在這個部分我還是建議主席才是在現在的位置報告就好不管誰去報告因為職務都有問題職務都有問題"},{"start":3021.039,"end":3043.089,"text":"謝謝國政委員的一個會議詢問、一個建議。我想這樣,確實我們在這一陣子不管是院會或者委員會、委員之間都有不同的一個看法,尤其對於立法院通過三讀的一個NCC的組織法,我們也覺得是所有代表立法院通過的一個法令沒有受到尊重,這是事實。"},{"start":3044.269,"end":3065.968,"text":"那不過我也跟國政委員報告一下因為我覺得不能為一個任何一個委員會或者是一個組織的一個爭議來改變我們交通委員會我們既有的傳承的我們的原則我們的原則就是所有的官員在這裡報告那他們有什麼問題所以我現在請祖密這個報告的原因是因為"},{"start":3066.768,"end":3067.489,"text":"有時候組密紀錄也不太好啦"},{"start":3095.2,"end":3117.108,"text":"我說實在我當然這個一例的事他的紀律啊他的紀錄啊是不良的比翁代理主委還不良所以你叫一個不良的叫另外一個更不良的人上去報告主席當然我要尊重你最後裁定但是最起碼的話我想我們委員會所有委員"},{"start":3118.288,"end":3142.692,"text":"最起碼還是要有一點尊嚴吧所以這點當然主席最後怎麼裁我是尊重但是我要凸顯一個問題不良的代理主委跟更糟糕更不良的主秘去做報告效益如何如果主席認為效益可以那我當然是服從主席的裁定"},{"start":3145.046,"end":3161.396,"text":"好 謝謝林國臻委員這個其實剛剛一席話確實有很多讓NCC所有的這個官員你們可以好好去思考一下用心良苦不過我剛剛看了NCC名單再往下看可能合乎我們標準的應該沒有"},{"start":3162.759,"end":3164.98,"text":"那我不會上廁所吧因為我不聽因為你單靠我們都"},{"start":3199.464,"end":3224.544,"text":"謝謝莊委主席、各位委員大家好今天很榮幸代替翁代主委來跟各位報告以下緊究通常會打詐防制措施及成效進行專題一、新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領通常會依照行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略綱領1.5版負責統籌的面向是賭詐"},{"start":3228.347,"end":3246.94,"text":"通傳會防制電信詐欺辦理情形防渡境外篡改來化詐騙實施攔阻國際偽貿來化並在民眾接聽國際來化提前提供語音警示我們的成效國際來化化物由最高的112年5月"},{"start":3248.973,"end":3250.875,"text":"總量下降98%詐騙集團大幅減少利用國際來話來進行詐騙"},{"start":3274.18,"end":3292.079,"text":"國際二指人頭門號詐騙作為工具,112年6月定班電信服務 指令,針對企業客戶申請門號數進行總量管理,非本國籍人士申辦門號以一門為原則,簽證日期較短者以一副卡為原則。"},{"start":3294.181,"end":3306.284,"text":"113年4月26日定定的電信事業用戶使用管理辦法強化雙證查核法律基礎並納管虛擬行動通信業務3.要求業者設立獨立集合部門就遭165通報斷話之電信門號及高風險門訊進行加強行政檢查督促電信事業加強管理並落實KYC機制3.攔阻惡意簡訊我們主要措施一"},{"start":3323.188,"end":3350.199,"text":"針對境內商業設詐防堵措施一、要求業者需查核發送者落實KYC才可以發送二、建立惡意攔阻、惡意檢訊攔阻機制就關鍵字部分必須要在發送之前要予以過濾二、針對境內檢訊個人設詐防堵措施針對短時間內大量發送檢訊的行為提出我們也提出了單日超過"},{"start":3350.979,"end":3370.351,"text":"一定上線之後．要關閉簡訊發放功能．那目前這個上線是50折．那同時也建立白名單．對於有需要發送大量簡訊者．也不會因此而受到影響．3NCC推動商業通用檢碼．使通信使簡訊來源易於辨識．那除了中華電信的123．遠傳的888．臺哥大的935．那開頭6碼簡訊．那除此之外目前我們已經"},{"start":3379.677,"end":3402.696,"text":"在協調相關業者已有國泰人壽的68168、副幫人壽的68999使用無碼通用檢碼目前持續開放電信事業來申請使用督導電信事業針對DMT偽基地台AI分析基地台異常使用行為來提供警政機關相關情資以便追查犯罪"},{"start":3405.636,"end":3430.015,"text":"詐欺、犯罪、危害防制條例通過之後,我們相關的配套措施如下。一、透過簡訊資料庫查詢來聯防。那未來民眾呢,在申辦電信服務的時候,或是經司法機關通知有關有需要做重新查核者,電信事業必須要透過資料來核對相關的資料以做驗證,以確保用戶資料的正確性。那另外,我們也會藉機"},{"start":3431.297,"end":3431.577,"text":"2.高風險用戶管理"},{"start":3446.594,"end":3472.626,"text":"司法機關通知限制或停止提供電信服務打一定門號數的這些用戶,我們將依照打詐專法的規定,那各電信事業將必須要將它列為高風險用戶,來限制該用戶在三年期間內僅能夠申辦一門或是一項電信服務,那我們就俗稱為這個三正條款。相關次數的計算及規定的通報流程,本會將在113年年底完成公告。"},{"start":3476.691,"end":3497.539,"text":"就是我們在對黑名卡方面的這些管制那黑名卡遭受到不當的使用呢從事詐欺行為那這些境外高風險電信事業及漫遊服務呢我們近期已跟相關單位就指標達成共識包括用於詐欺犯罪具體數量及比例有沒有實名認證是否以預付卡形式進行販售並審酌境外電信事業所屬國家或地區"},{"start":3501.761,"end":3511.609,"text":"配合司法互助或跨國犯罪情形來辦理後續的這些公告加強高風險門市查核我們也將針對高風險門市加強查核要求定性事業提報用戶號碼查詢抽測計畫並定期抽測"},{"start":3522.055,"end":3549.137,"text":"打詐是目前政府首要的任務本會將會持續督導電信事業落實辦理暫定民眾受騙機會、達成減少接觸、減少誤信、減少損害這三解目標新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0我們增至以上措施,我們會再提出精進策略、行動方案、具體措施、滾動式檢討推動堵詐策略以上報告,敬請各位委員支持、指教。謝謝"},{"start":3552.452,"end":3580.112,"text":"好 謝謝主秘 這個很熟悉啊 資料是有你彙整的嘛上來表現一下 請回座好 接下來因為還有這個我們邀請的一個機關那我是不是能夠再請兩個機關這個來做一個報告簡報就是包括了行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心跟內政部這個警政署副署長那法務部跟警管會就是直接來詢問有沒有意見"},{"start":3581.736,"end":3593.883,"text":"還是你們要報告 準備很久沒有 沒意見嗎接下來我們有請行政院打詐指揮中心黃國思執行秘書來報告"},{"start":3602.124,"end":3626.021,"text":"主席、各位委員先生、各位在場的各位先進今天應邀列席貴委員會的工作報告並備詢首先誠摯地感謝各位委員對於行政院打詐工作的支持與重視期盼未來能夠繼續給予策略與指教以下僅就我國打詐的成效與防制提出以下的簡單說明如下"},{"start":3626.641,"end":3656.093,"text":"首先,隨著電信網路自由化以及全球金融交易的多元化在資通科技的發展導致新型態的詐欺犯罪手法不斷的發生政府全力執行各項詐欺犯罪的偵訪策略但是,民眾對於我們詐欺犯罪能感威脅所以,行政院在今年8月27日將打擊詐欺辦公室轉型為打擊詐欺犯罪指揮中心"},{"start":3656.753,"end":3672.98,"text":"除了延續既有的任務以外我們更落實跨部會的協調平台強化府院的通報、部會的協調以及社會溝通三個層次以提升政府的工作效能其次在詐欺犯罪的增防策略"},{"start":3673.88,"end":3688.307,"text":"建於打詐綱領1.5實施即將屆滿．面對當前的詐欺犯罪情勢．有重新檢討各項策略的必要．所以由行政院團隊著手研擬的打詐綱領2.0．在策略面"},{"start":3692.089,"end":3704.395,"text":"從賭詐以及主詐面向當中將數位經濟產業相關的事項進行統合新設的防詐也就是數位經濟面向是由數位發展部來統籌在賭詐部分則配合調整為電信服務面"},{"start":3709.737,"end":3737.275,"text":"在法制面的部分結合了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例、刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分專章還有洗錢防治法以及通訊保障及監察法等打詐新釋法以落實執行各項的措施在組織面,行政院為了建立跨部會的協調平台打擊詐欺辦公室轉型為打詐指揮中心由內政部次長兼任指揮官"},{"start":3739.158,"end":3748.475,"text":"統籌打詐政策的規劃並增設執行秘書來總理業務的推行以有效的遏止詐欺犯罪的發生另外"},{"start":3750.046,"end":3778.388,"text":"本院由內政部擔任中央主管機關跟金管會、通傳會、訴發部還有法務部等機關共同有制定了詐欺犯罪危害防制條例感謝我們立法院朝野黨團對於詐欺犯罪防制條例的重視與支持能夠在本院提出審議後密集的召開會議審查跟協商完成立法目前本院客政督導相關部會"},{"start":3779.289,"end":3808.649,"text":"制定詐防條例的授權執法那執法的草案也陸續著手進行預告的程序預計會在年底完成公告在明年正式上路讓我國的打詐法制更加完善健全第三各面向的執行成效統計從去年6月到今年8月在市詐部分透過多元管道進行防詐宣導我們的觸及率已經高達1億6千多萬人次另外"},{"start":3809.549,"end":3823.579,"text":"透過各式的方法來攔阻被害款項也有新台幣137億多元攔阻下來了在賭詐面向透過業者的配合RCS的惡意簡訊的攔阻"},{"start":3825.782,"end":3832.745,"text":"詐騙簡訊累計有1200多萬則另外在人頭門號的詐騙工具停斷化也高達2956門並且同時我們指導的各電信業者強化認識客戶風險的管理機制同時輔導三大工協會的會員來辦理網購程序的防詐相關警示措施還有物流銀碼剛剛我們"},{"start":3852.237,"end":3875.069,"text":"經管會的通傳率的先進已經有特別提報出來那在主詐的部分本國銀行已將共通性的異常教育太陽都納入了內部預警指標同時本國全體銀行也都已經完成了申請約定轉帳加強防詐的措施在懲詐面向針對各電信網路詐欺類型的"},{"start":3876.329,"end":3894.872,"text":"執行了17波的查緝專案．總共有查獲2,990餘件的犯罪集團．查過的不法犯罪所得超過149億．同時透過真神移赴法院調解．以加速返還被害人所受的損害金額．也超過了20億元．"},{"start":3896.834,"end":3914.81,"text":"結餘,為了因應日新月異的詐騙手法,持續從源頭來落實防詐的作為,行政院團隊也正研擬新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0,以上由源頭管理,下由輕於懲罰為精神,刻與金融"},{"start":3915.39,"end":3915.41,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":3945.992,"end":3967.081,"text":"黃執行秘書那我先確認一下議事錄來各位在座的委員針對於我們這個剛剛在電視都有聽到嘛議事錄有沒有意見上次會議錄的議事錄沒有意見那議事錄確定那我們今天的金融監督機關報告最後一位請我們內政部警政署李正曉副署長報告"},{"start":3981.468,"end":3995.896,"text":"主席、公務委員、議會的女士先生大家早安首先感謝公務委員對警政工作的支持與主教那以下警政署請就目前我們打詐的成效跟防制"},{"start":3997.256,"end":4024.977,"text":"就政策面還有執行面先向各位委員報告在政策法規的部分我們行政院推動修訂打詐薪事法行政院訂定詐欺犯罪防治條例修正刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章及修正通信保障及檢查法及洗錢防治法等打詐薪事法為警察執法提供依據"},{"start":4026.243,"end":4036.703,"text":"也加強對金融機構及網路平台的監管公司協力阻斷詐欺犯罪另外在新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領的重點"},{"start":4038.888,"end":4060.365,"text":"原來的打詐綱領1.5沒有包括數位經濟面的防詐目前加入了數位部由數位部統籌的防詐面一共加上原來的試詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐等五大面向積極打詐抑制詐欺的犯罪"},{"start":4061.701,"end":4089.634,"text":"在市詐的部分由我們內政部來主責強化分城、分鎮、分嶺實施預防的宣導具體的作為有﹐針對老人青少年提款車手製造宣導的素材應應不同的族群舉辦適當的宣導活動官方的平台結合各地警政機關進行市詐信息的推波"},{"start":4090.987,"end":4112.214,"text":"另外,應用平面電子、電視、廣播和網路媒體投效宣導素材,擴大信息的層面。在我們的成效部分,打詐綱領實施以來,僅屬於各公司部門協力合作與具有下列的成效。在市詐面的部分,"},{"start":4114.265,"end":4133.234,"text":"運用社群媒體等多元管道進行推播提高民眾防詐的意識。第二強化分層分眾分領的宣導在年輕族群的部分跟教育部合作一網少年犯罪113年上半年全國入班入校宣導場次達4358場"},{"start":4137.571,"end":4158.458,"text":"在中高齡的族群部分與宗教界合作深入觸及中高族群分屬提供反詐騙先導的素材給宗教團體,則有宗教活動實施施詐的教育深入拓展民眾觸及的管道,強化反詐的意識"},{"start":4160.216,"end":4184.815,"text":"第3個部份是加強跟民間企業公司協力的攔阻警政機關透過跟民間企業諸如銀行、保險、證券、投信、創投等金融領域簽訂合作備忘錄的模式建立資訊共享的平台交流最新的詐騙手法和防範策略發送自詐的資訊建構主詐的防護網"},{"start":4188.652,"end":4214.512,"text":"通力合作打擊金融詐欺犯罪在賭詐的部分從去年7月1號到今年的9月26號刑事局收報詐騙廣告15萬8千多則經通報相關單位完成下架第二,完成要求電信事業落實門號申辦審核減少人頭的門號"},{"start":4219.495,"end":4242.602,"text":"從今年1月到8月跟NCC借接資料庫攔阻境外詐騙電話411萬一件減少詐騙來話也推動電商業者應用物流銀碼技術減少個資的外洩在主詐的部分刑事局成立金融資料調閱小組"},{"start":4245.169,"end":4266.063,"text":"從去年6月28日到今年的9月25日,成功攔阻3.3億元。推動銀行加入英元的市詐聯盟,目前已有35家本國的銀行加入。偵測管制異常的帳戶18000多戶,攔阻3億多元。"},{"start":4271.946,"end":4293.373,"text":"建立超商物流退後退款機制今年1到8月協助民眾退款1.66億165專線在民眾報案協助民眾緊急簽存詐騙被害款項在懲詐部分統計今年1到8月警察機關偵破詐欺集團"},{"start":4299.083,"end":4318.229,"text":"達1439件、氣候13208人、查扣不法利的73.4億元另外本署也跟高檢署合作今年實施三波的全國打擊詐欺的專案也都獲得相當多的成果"},{"start":4319.502,"end":4347.691,"text":"另外本屬刑事局也成立打詐情資延期小組．聚焦打擊高層次的詐團核心．目前過濾出的情資有272件．查後165件．比例達60%．最後我特別要再強調．全國各國．全球的各國皆面臨詐欺犯罪的嚴峻挑戰．"},{"start":4349.346,"end":4374.347,"text":"警政署跟各國以時俱進提出打詐對應政策跟措施強化民眾的視詐並全面打擊黑幫結合詐欺犯罪期盼我們大院跟社會各界給予支持透過公司的協力有效打擊詐欺犯罪以上報告公請指導好謝謝李副組長"},{"start":4377.083,"end":4397.529,"text":"今天列席機關報告完畢但是我們的法務部監管會他也有提供書面報告請參閱我們現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項第一詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘第二委員發言登記於10點30分截止第三各委員如有臨時提議案"},{"start":4398.989,"end":4410.998,"text":"請於10點提出以便議事人員會診第4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第5中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位林國成委員發言"},{"start":4429.412,"end":4454.552,"text":"好 謝謝主席我特別要強調一下我跟翁代理副主委無厭無醜私交也不錯但是公事公辦行政院院會韓院長做出裁定的時候行政院到現在為止針對代理合法與否"},{"start":4455.933,"end":4470.8,"text":"都未曾交代所以雖然看起來應邀到本宴來但是最起碼這是一個對法治一個尊重所以特別在這裡要重申"},{"start":4472.599,"end":4492.53,"text":"違法代理應不應該下台行政院要盡快的去做適當的一個處置讓他明確化所以這裡特別啊要重申那另外一個我在想主席我要請黃部長還有打詐的黃主任秘書來"},{"start":4510.814,"end":4537.075,"text":"好 兩位首長齁其實為什麼不讓NCC上來第一個連媒體都管不好大詐怎麼會做得好連媒體公正公平都督導的做不到那今天報告了這麼多當然我們還是期待因為我們立法院也適度修了一些法規讓你們在偵辦的時候"},{"start":4540.557,"end":4565.691,"text":"包括調查局包括刑事警察局在本黨團黃總召去訪問的時候我們就認為這個華是缺華所以有很多華我們都提供我們的意見也提供讓我們在執行法律的時候當然要事半功倍也就是你們有羅波"},{"start":4566.852,"end":4582.519,"text":"也有棍子這樣才有辦法去防止這些那個這個那另外一個我簡單的問一下黃部長跟我們黃執行秘書昨天我們民營機構的聯電偽創台塑化都被駭客入侵請問"},{"start":4592.839,"end":4608.784,"text":"我們國內的資安到底誰在把關連民營的這些生產公司都會被駭客入侵請問黃部長請問黃執行秘書針對這個事情你簡單回答一下"},{"start":4614.295,"end":4614.795,"text":"你們發現這個問題怎麼處理?"},{"start":4644.048,"end":4644.208,"text":"部長﹖黃部長﹖"},{"start":4670.814,"end":4680.344,"text":"其實駭客的問題不是今天才發生啦其實我們前一段時間我們公家機關也被駭客入侵啊這個也是一個問題這個也跟打詐是有關欸不要這裡只有黃片但是駭客倉皇這樣也不好吧"},{"start":4692.436,"end":4706.538,"text":"這不是一系列執行秘書就變成行政院有一個打詐謊騙的一個指揮中心結果呢明有設置但是事實上會更糟糕這個不好"},{"start":4708.18,"end":4734.203,"text":"所以我特別啊特別要提醒黃部長特別要聽我們黃子密在這個部分你我跟你講啊真正會做壞事的都是日新夜異的技術有時候你們都抓不到啦所以我特別要請黃部長我說實在的接下來我就要特別提醒我們的施策會有很多東西是很重要的"},{"start":4735.064,"end":4750.413,"text":"很重要的所以我現在就是要來請教我們施策會這幾天剛換的這些人事的問題我請問一下施策會這個董事長執行長有沒有任期制部長"},{"start":4758.055,"end":4778.136,"text":"施策會原則上我們尊重董事會的那個因為這是董事會的機制嘛那執行長的任命是由董事長任命的所以我們有沒有權督導我們是屬於我們素產署的督導但是我跟你講我跟你投訴一下不能因為"},{"start":4780.083,"end":4797.217,"text":"我說實在就是濫油油那什麼事情通通可以做你知道現在董事長跟執行長任期未到阿你們就是拿了一個這個濫油油的牌子他就可以去馬上"},{"start":4798.098,"end":4825.398,"text":"你知道現在換的黃仲明董事長你知道他是做什麼起家嗎他有辦法去設計這些我們需要的這些網路嗎當然你這個人不是你派但是我要拜託你嚴格監督不能因為他是賴悠悠那大家你是資料去提供一下阿最近賴悠悠不是很慘嗎"},{"start":4827.492,"end":4845.237,"text":"所以這個部分因為他所有的委辦都是我們政府機關給這個單位所以我希望大家不能把這些知通的東西當兒校這是一個專業的單位知錯會是一個專業的單位耶"},{"start":4849.978,"end":4862.841,"text":"黃部長我知道你無權去干涉可是你要去盡到監督之責任啊不能因為他是賴油油啊什麼都不管加入信賴就吃香喝辣還有一點我要請教我們這個部長打破慣例他上任就要知心請問這合不合理嗎"},{"start":4875.08,"end":4901.835,"text":"一切按照這個組織法事實上是並沒有說好來你來說你想說你說合不合理合不合法嘛這個財團法人他有知心比如說他過去都是教授間的因為他在學校本來就有知心說他都領社馬會那這個那本來就可以知心對那他這個知心多高你知道嗎知不知道你你你是不是董事會成員"},{"start":4903.544,"end":4910.513,"text":"我是董事會成員那怎麼通過的你大聲告訴人家過去是怎麼樣現在是怎麼樣過去因為都是學校教授兼任現在是專任拜託他有專才嗎"},{"start":4922.338,"end":4939.577,"text":"他以前是做什麼?遊戲公司的董事長啦只有這些跟我們這個業務有什麼關係所以喔 別說 還比較難得啦你是一個董事還是要有董事的尊嚴但是我要拜託我們黃部長"},{"start":4941.893,"end":4957.92,"text":"當然你無法去抗計但是你總是有一個正目光的擔當不對就不對不可以就不可以該就正就要就正所以這點我還要請我們黃部長要有所作為"},{"start":4959.008,"end":4980.574,"text":"我會督導我們會督導要督導因為他所有不要忘了喔他現在在領專業加薪去年度還虧損了2億喔這些花名單位他編類預算他說來自我們政府機關的委託案所以在這個部分黃部長我也知道"},{"start":4982.028,"end":5010.516,"text":"包括我在內無法抵抗賴友友但是最起碼我們政府官要有尊嚴啊我們立法委員要有尊嚴啊不是嗎所以我希望黃部長你是一個老實人想要做事情但是也要有擔當啊不能因為為首亦為支撤會變成賴友友之友會那這樣就不好因為那個支撤會是多麼重要的單位欸"},{"start":5011.696,"end":5038.846,"text":"好不好 因為打詐還是需要他提供很多的專業的知識嘛所以這個部分 我要拜託黃部長 你的骨頭要硬一點啦該有所為 有所不為人情世故我贊成 但是不要連人情世故都沒有自己本身骨頭不夠硬 這樣的話就不是一個有為的政務官 好不好"},{"start":5041.338,"end":5057.648,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那我會基本上先從制度面剛講法規面來處理對啦 不行就不行啦好不好我們一切依照法規啦看這個組織法怎麼定我們就根據那來處理好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員接下來有請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":5075.622,"end":5099.981,"text":"謝謝主席,我們先請翁博忠主委好,翁主委委員好主委好那個有人爆料說你那個送禮用廠商去買單,這是怎麼回事?"},{"start":5101.837,"end":5127.104,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我這個澄清的機會那首先我有發新聞稿澄清沒有這件絕無此事另外我也主動的將相關的單據還有整個的過程送給政風去調查及說明原委那特資會的使用都是合乎法令的"},{"start":5128.129,"end":5134.398,"text":"所以這個是合法啦齁我先請教一下你到底是買這個海產送誰呃呃快證"},{"start":5138.632,"end":5162.363,"text":"那個這個海產都是全部送給我們的同仁就是在年結期送給你們NCC裡面的同仁我們NCC的同仁那你這個主管不錯啊會買禮物送給同仁我坦白講我的特製會不多但是三結的時候我們會買一些水果或者是一些農特產送給我們的同仁"},{"start":5163.359,"end":5185.211,"text":"OK因為坦白講我本來不知道你送誰想說奇怪NCC到底要送禮物給誰這個是送給同仁其實用你自己的特資費送給同仁我是覺得這一點還不錯啦是可以給你鼓勵啦那當然就是說其他的部分就是一切依法嘛所以你就是有照你特資費那個支出都有憑證嘛"},{"start":5186.632,"end":5204.577,"text":"報告委員有這件事情我有信心我經得起考驗絕對沒有不法希望對同仁好的態度可以繼續下去同仁感同身受還不錯另外我請教一下主委數位港就是臺灣"},{"start":5211.198,"end":5230.018,"text":"所有的海南登陸站都在北部南部只有一個仿山那量不夠那如果說我們高雄將來要發展我們的AI首都就是我們希望高雄是一個非常條件很好的地方那數位港NCC有沒有什麼概念就是設海南登陸站由誰來設怎麼設什麼時候設"},{"start":5233.275,"end":5246.972,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個海嵐的登陸站其實在台灣就像委員講的都是集中在北部但是在南部確實也有需要那我想說上次也有討論到在興達港"},{"start":5249.795,"end":5270.252,"text":"就是附近的那個就是煤船進來的那個渠道是從國安的角度從任性的角度從將來我們所有的超級電腦資料中心需要的角度那這個角度是不是高雄需要設一個海南登陸站有沒有這個必要南部確實是有需要因為這樣分散"},{"start":5271.252,"end":5293.462,"text":"假使是說你那個海南登陸站都是集中在北部的某些點沒有分散的話那這樣確實在任性發展的角度是所以就是從NCC的角度是100%贊成我們南部設海南登陸站因為要發展AI你一定要有海南進來而且要有規模的IDC進來所以NCC會贊成會幫忙"},{"start":5294.943,"end":5316.182,"text":"NCC是站在因為電管法上面有一個公眾電信那個網路查驗及使用管理辦法我們會來協助重點是誰可以來設這個海南登陸站這個部分的話就是要電信公司他假使願意提出申請電信公司是民間的"},{"start":5317.563,"end":5338.848,"text":"其實這個部分有很多的方式啦也是可以三家電信公司合資不過這個是關鍵基礎設施海嵐登陸站是關鍵基礎設施一定要就是說要是要本國的電信事業來ON比較好那關鍵基礎設施韌性的發展那到底是誰可以來主導"},{"start":5340.805,"end":5361.334,"text":"是NCC可以來主導還是數法部可以來主導因為這個NCC是監理單位這個有牽涉到就是整個AI產業的發展那或許是NCC管準不準嘛對不對我們就是那個Landing Station那個海欄站而已是不是請部長那個數法部部長就說這個到底可不可以設"},{"start":5366.141,"end":5371.607,"text":"那個 報告委員我是樂觀其成啦齁 這個從開展重新拉上 跟部長報告我現在就不知道誰來設啊"},{"start":5372.915,"end":5398.502,"text":"那個我們過去的例子像那個登陸站過去都是我有去查一下過去大概都是由電信公司提出申請然後去建設然後經過NCC核准那它建好以後我們速劃過去我們現在從國家的角度來思考就是它是韌性建設它是關鍵基礎設施國家的角度必須要有設從這個角度來看那如果民間都沒有人主動那我政府應該怎麼做"},{"start":5399.048,"end":5424.864,"text":"所以那個報告委員就我有去調查那個各式各樣的可能的方法那有一個方法就是那個我們那個就是像其實我那時候有建議說其實我們看到一個比如說像高雄有一個叫做戀愛5G的雅灣的5G這種方式這個model其實很好的model就是說建一個園區然後用5G IoT的這樣一個model去建那以這個模範是由高雄市政府提出"},{"start":5426.106,"end":5430.76,"text":"高雄市政府提出,那如果高雄市政府說配合中央,那中央有沒有想法?"},{"start":5432.702,"end":5459.717,"text":"因為這個經費還是要申請公建預算所以要有單位去申請公建預算那個我現在跟部長報告啦這個是關鍵基礎設施這個是韌性建設這是有關於國安跟治安甚至將來所有的AI的發展這對國家來講是重要的對不對完全同意那總是國家有個單位我說有人願意承擔來push這件事情"},{"start":5462.167,"end":5475.375,"text":"報告委員就是這個剛剛我講過就是這個東西這個東西本來就是應該要建設但是應該一起大家一起合作去做那我們願意來協調所以吼那個跟部長報告我現在問了很多單位"},{"start":5476.415,"end":5501.554,"text":"蘇巴部說願意協調 OKNCC說願意幫忙 OK市政委覺得這個重要 OK那港澳公司也覺得這個需要他們的地他們也OK然後那個台電也認為說在我興達廠這裡電量充足是全國最好的一個場所也OK現在沒有人掛鈴鐺誰來掛鈴鐺誰來主導這件事那我從中央的角度就是說我今天假設啦"},{"start":5502.827,"end":5526.306,"text":"那個總統問你說 那個書法部你來主導 或者是有誰可以來主導 你要怎麼回答這個報告委員 就是我想我們再來開個會協調 看哪個單位出來出來 你知道我意思嗎對那個我問你 你是可以說這是誰負責誰負責 看誰那如果總統問你說這個是國家中央政策 一定要有那書法部的部長應該怎麼樣來協助承擔來幫忙"},{"start":5529.585,"end":5545.751,"text":"就是我們出來就是來協調各單位然後是不是對要協調部長你懂我意思嗎了解了解但是就是說我問你你的回答的方式就是這個大家都可以但是如果總統問你說這是國家重要建設一定要做那從數話部的角度要怎麼協助"},{"start":5547.093,"end":5574.688,"text":"那我們就是剛剛講就是依照過去過去那個海南上岸一開始都是電信公司去主導沒關係如果假設啦總統說那這件事就拜託你幫忙協調成功這樣子你可以答應嗎?我們就我們當然會會盡力部長你懂我意思嗎?因為我現在其實我已經很努力找了很多單位了已經萬事俱備只欠東風啦那東風呢如果是有人有肩膀把他扛下來這個就是東風"},{"start":5577.372,"end":5604.584,"text":"否則如果都沒人扛下來就是東風無力百花殘所以報告委員我們在就是說在近期我們會再來好不好再開一個會拜託這是我說的再說一遍這是國家重要建設對不對完全同意這是關鍵基礎測試對不對這是對國家韌性發展很重要對不對那這個其實對於甚至在國內的AI競技力到國外的競爭力都很重要對不對好"},{"start":5605.838,"end":5628.357,"text":"總統如果跟你說阿這個很重要勒你對不對覺得對不對對嘛那現在沒有人做應該怎麼做就是就是說依照我剛講的那個我們過去調查過去的建立的方式拜託那個部長因為我找不到人承擔我們在這個其實我剛講的最合適那不管我們中央單位怎麼協調就拜託部長來主導這樣OK嗎"},{"start":5630.146,"end":5654.651,"text":"我們再來協調可以你來幫忙協調到這件事情成功吧不然我現在你看我做了這麼多的努力已經各個單位我都問了走了一圈了啦那最後我就還在找到底誰可以把這件事情承擔下來那這個對台灣對城市對將來國家的發展都一定非常的好而且也非常的重要但是就是要有人做好不好"},{"start":5656.168,"end":5678.077,"text":"這個拜託部長來主導協調啦好不好好那最後還有一個小事齁聯電、偽創、台說化都受到駭客的攻擊那這個在也是治安的問題那事務發部有辦法處理嗎現在就是我們有觀察到這樣一個攻擊因為攻擊從政府攻擊開始擴散到民間齁"},{"start":5680.439,"end":5700.32,"text":"我剛剛有講過就是我們第一個有所謂情資分享我們有聯防的機制然後公司協力的聯防機制所以也歡迎就是希望各個單位民間公司來加入我們這樣一個聯防的所謂設的這樣一個機制能夠分享這樣供給情資遇到供給的時候我們會提供一些情資跟協助來分散這些供給的太陽"},{"start":5700.76,"end":5725.753,"text":"不過目前為止因為這公職所謂的DDOS阻斷式攻擊其實目前的傷害都不大而且很快就能夠恢復所以大概目前是沒有什麼資料外洩或是被嚴重入侵的事件不過我們在持續在關注啦但是治安還是要大家一起努力那當然就是說我也希望說趁這個機會講說我們有一個很重要的法案叫做治安法的修法這個法其實對"},{"start":5727.294,"end":5746.973,"text":"對我們在要求民間業者的那個資安人員的這個安排跟培訓很重要所以希望大院能夠儘速通過資安法讓我們有法能夠去監督這些民間機關OK那我想就是兩個角度嘛一個角度立法院我們自己會努力希望我們各黨派都可以支持那第二個角度就是說其實站在"},{"start":5747.654,"end":5747.674,"text":"蘇發布議員"},{"start":5768.851,"end":5785.319,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑委員那也請我們黃部長剛剛那個第一項這個這麼久的事情你要召集相關的單位提出具體的一個說法然後給許智傑委員好 謝謝接下來有請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5793.991,"end":5815.167,"text":"本席邀請我們速發部黃岩南部長黃部長我們NCC黃主委、黃代理主委黃主委警政署、警政署今天誰來?副組長刑事李副組長副局長好了我問一下詐騙、詐騙專辦的事情刑事局一起來好部長您好好"},{"start":5823.837,"end":5840.196,"text":"部長好那我今天在跟你討論就是我們也列為國家重大施政的就是打擊詐騙那根據警政署的統計台灣過去假借這種親友名義就假親友的詐騙"},{"start":5841.497,"end":5856.053,"text":"成績一陣子很高啦那後來這種手法老舊了所以數量又減少最近又變多了警政署統計說假借親友的詐騙數量只有10%但是它會造成一個狀況"},{"start":5857.58,"end":5877.702,"text":"什麼狀況呢?最近很多民眾跟我反映我們在座的人可能都會接到我們的朋友告訴我們說我的帳號被盜了如果有人跟你借錢那不是真的我不知道你們有沒有這樣的經驗那你的朋友可能他的LINE帳號被盜或是WhatsApp什麼樣的反正就是他的一些通訊軟體被盜用了"},{"start":5880.533,"end":5908.039,"text":"現在這種詐騙手法越來越厲害了普通人要你參考用什麼寵物投票寶寶模特兒很可愛、很漂亮的東西利用人性柔軟的一面你就點擊進去給你輸入簡單的很快的你進去你就會你的帳篷就整個退了那現在問題在哪裡呢問題就是說那他"},{"start":5909.139,"end":5909.659,"text":"通常啊 都是當事人發現 都報案"},{"start":5929.06,"end":5929.801,"text":"誰會先發現?"},{"start":5929.801,"end":5952.239,"text":"一定是原來的使用者嘛,他才發現他被淘汰。所以大概一個程序是這樣,發現被盜然後報警,然後那裡就暫停處理。但是這個時間大概要一天,如果你發現你的帳號被盜,那請問你跟你的通訊軟體社交平台反映,他多久會把你的帳號幫你停掉?"},{"start":5954.108,"end":5980.161,"text":"這我不知道我們有開店嗎?通訊都一天一天已經足夠很長的時間讓它進行一些詐騙的事情那同時我想請問警政署就你們在偵辦的時候因為這種通訊軟體帳號用逃犯人大部分都是臉書還是那種LINE那現在臉書或LINE他們的公司對配合程度怎麼樣?"},{"start":5981.241,"end":6010.229,"text":"那我們是不是會調閱一些加害人、或者是被害人的相關資料來這項誰可以回答檢討署先回答委員好,謝謝委員垂訊這個問題是刑事局的副局長來回答有關在調閱這些涉案人臉書的資料跟LINE的資料目前臉書有14項罪名可以調那可是LINE的部分他堅持要我們用搜索票才可以做調閱所以現在是LINE的部分是比較辛苦的我們要"},{"start":6011.209,"end":6036.101,"text":"請到搜索票才可以調閱相關的資料簡單講當然是不配合啦當然是不配合啦但你請到搜索票也不是要騙多少人的啦那過去部長齁黃部長你我上次主席你講過嘛你說你會找找臉書溝通啊對不對你又要請人家臉書你又要請人家臉書他一藏起來都不配合所有的詐騙大部分都躲在臉書"},{"start":6037.421,"end":6061.623,"text":"那現在這種態度那你怎麼處理?那個的確委員所講我們這樣跟臉書已經喝過好幾次咖啡了那的確我們看到很多詐騙是經過臉書的尤其是投資詐騙假名人或是臉書這樣的詐騙那這個數目包括委員那個我們這樣雖然打詐裝潢還沒有完全實施但是臉書已經開始來配合所以我們現在一個月"},{"start":6062.324,"end":6063.464,"text":"那很多人是最無辜的啦"},{"start":6088.311,"end":6103.11,"text":"他的帳號被盜了那他發生一個事情喔比如說奈你的奈被盜了他沒有辦法回復喔就報警了以後啊警方沒有辦法奈公司沒有辦法把你原來的奈還給你了"},{"start":6104.158,"end":6129.739,"text":"也就是說使用者無辜的使用者他原來在上面在通訊軟體上面的聯絡人也好啦照片影片啦什麼聊天群組啦一些相關資訊全部都不見了他們要求你重新設一個帳號部長你覺得怎麼樣你知道這種狀況吧造成那個被害人啦他極度不方便我接到很多民眾這樣的反應但實際上啦不應該這樣子啦"},{"start":6134.728,"end":6162.523,"text":"來我看一看這是我們經濟部、事務發展部自己修正的即時通訊軟體服務定型化契約你在這個契約裡面有寫到如果是因為這種狀況就已經不便宜那麼像Nine這種公司他有責任他回復給原使用者你知不知道上面有這樣規定"},{"start":6164.707,"end":6188.119,"text":"我看你也不知道啦你也不知道啦消費者因中端設備因為更換或者被不法入侵導致帳號遭刪除的時候那麼你要檢據相關資料向企業經營者就是向LINE或者是Message就是臉書請求協助回覆帳號"},{"start":6189.821,"end":6211.36,"text":"他要把東西交給別人那現在沒有啦現在他們都不搞這一套啦臉書直接叫你LINE直接叫你申請一個新帳號所以很多被騙的人喔他丟掉了上面可能有很多他珍貴的東西啦全部都沒了那你這個定性外資要去訂價啊不是啊 完了你知道這個事情啦所以喔"},{"start":6214.605,"end":6228.633,"text":"你帳號被盜可能還沒造成任何損失比如說你報警那檢方幫你處理好了但是被騙者只有他會造成損失啦因為他的東西要不回來了他在軟體上面收的資料都沒了這檔部長你知道嗎"},{"start":6231.96,"end":6249.071,"text":"定期外企業是不是有?來,誰可以回答?這個定期外企業是數位產業署這邊訂定的,這個我們目前也會再跟那裡溝通,因為他常常說這個什麼溝通?你叫客戶走那裡溝通?他技術做得到啦,我也再跟你們參考遊戲軟體啦,玩遊戲很容易帳號被盜,但是遊戲公司會完整的還給你"},{"start":6255.782,"end":6281.05,"text":"你被騙者權力不會受損他會及時幫你擋下來只要有LINE這種或者是MATCH就是那個臉書的他全部叫你重來那你怎麼對為什麼遊戲軟體做得到遊戲公司做得到你通訊軟體做不到是不是你會被人家受傷這個不困難而且契約上很明顯記載保護消費者你怎麼做"},{"start":6285.95,"end":6302.619,"text":"這兩個單位要負責?我看上面寫數話部嘛?對,這是數話部督導的那是不是應該要要求?這個訂刑案契約我們再看看怎麼去處理你也要求,一定要要求叫客人走啊"},{"start":6303.598,"end":6323.907,"text":"對不對?你不要讓我們被害者造成無謂被害者造成再更進一步傷害啊那上面的影片照片啊、什麼通訊啊、通訊群組啦、聯絡人啊、那全部都沒了我現在見到很多人曾經、大家同時為了這個原因啊後來我去了解,我說奇怪了,那遊戲被盜、帳號被盜"},{"start":6326.906,"end":6354.802,"text":"那遊戲公司可以完整的回覆給你那為什麼你們的通訊軟體沒辦法後來我去查你們的那個定情話其實很明顯很明顯清楚寫到啊如果因為被詐騙導致就不法入侵啊那你這麼定表示說你也知道說他們做得到啊那這些公司這些通訊軟體公司做得到啊他們沒做啊甚至我 我覺得你們你們官員也不知道有這樣的一個規定啊好不好"},{"start":6355.731,"end":6356.991,"text":"接下來有請林佩祥委員發言"},{"start":6390.351,"end":6394.154,"text":"主席有請速發部部長黃部長委員好部長請問現在這個我現在要問的是時事題請問一下在過去10天之內政交所、桃園機場、聯電、緯創、台塑都被駭客所攻擊這件事您知道嗎知道請問一下這些的攻擊是從哪裡來的"},{"start":6417.392,"end":6418.332,"text":"請問為什麼會是俄國的駭客團體?"},{"start":6442.053,"end":6458.55,"text":"請問因為這件事情我覺得非常嚴重就是說理論上來講雖然說道高一尺魔高一丈這句話我想訴發部還有所有打詐的打詐國家隊最有感觸而說真的我聽到國家隊三個字就有點痘痘啊因為每次國家隊表示這邊做得很糟糕所以才需要國家隊"},{"start":6459.531,"end":6488.871,"text":"但是相對來講如果說現在我們是不是要一個防害國家隊因為最尷尬的地方是俄國、北韓這都是全世界駭客最強的國家那以前他們也不會針對我們請問為什麼現在會開始針對我們呢而且對不起讓我先講完一個攻擊出來對駭客來講每一次的攻擊都必須要有所回應都要有所回報不然的話對他們來講CP值不夠高駭客的其性他們是有事沒事不會主動去挑釁的"},{"start":6489.511,"end":6511.465,"text":"因為每一次他們的攻擊他們的殭屍網絡就被破壞每一次他們的攻擊他們的IP就會暴露每一次他們的攻擊一定要有效有目的的那這是很快的而我自己以前以前我自己也在IT上面知道過一些事情我有在IT的經驗那我也知道說我們的防護如果說他們真的要攻擊的話我們很難防得住"},{"start":6512.305,"end":6538.85,"text":"以一個企業體來講先不要講數法補那我想請問一下在目前來講請問為什麼俄國的駭客要做這種無謂的攻擊我可以防下來的攻擊報告委員那個我們有調查過其實俄國這次駭客攻擊不是只有針對台灣我們看到對美國對河南對一些國家都有攻擊所以這個攻擊應該是我們知道他對美國有政治因素我們知道對河南可能也有北約的政治因素那對台灣呢有沒有政治因素呢"},{"start":6539.25,"end":6555.602,"text":"還是因為是單純覺得駭客覺得很好玩所以俄國的駭客跑來攻擊台灣是嗎那個報告委員那個台灣就是一個攻擊的熱點就過去幾年來因為台灣就是那個大家也知道我們的攻擊數目可能是全球最高的所以幾乎所有的駭客有新的武器大家都拿台灣當試煉場"},{"start":6558.203,"end":6576.787,"text":"請問以抒發部因為之前沒有抒發部如果之前沒有一個部來去做數位發展的話我們對資安的要求在立法院我們對資安的要求不會這麼的嚴格但是現在包括桃園機場包括證交所包括聯電包括偽創包括台塑都under attack那請問一下我們的抒發部針對資安這件事情來講請問你們當這個公聚來的時候你們做了些什麼"},{"start":6585.009,"end":6600.758,"text":"我們當然是說我們有治安署大概就有一些治安通報嘛治安就是我們治安的防護就剛剛講有特別講說我們有所謂通報系統情治通報系統就設的這樣一個機制我們有事前、事中、事後事前就是集合我們確定治安大家都有達到一個水準"},{"start":6601.258,"end":6624.764,"text":"那事中就是在攻擊的時候我們所謂的各式各樣通報像SOC或是像是CERT他們會通報那我會跟所有的單位通報說我們看到新的攻擊請大家開始準備那事後我們會去分析這攻擊的太陽再去看怎麼樣去加強防護好那未來如果針對俄國再一次的攻擊你們會做些什麼事目前我們看到俄國這攻擊說DDoS的攻擊裡面其實並沒有造成造成嚴重的"},{"start":6625.644,"end":6654.865,"text":"這才是本席覺得對不起我不是說要看人希望人家受傷我不是要我們任何我們國家的企業有任何的損傷或者我們的所有的那個我們不管公司也要還是公部門也要的功能被癱瘓但是如果以我對泰克的瞭解他們這樣子很有第一個就是他們有更實際是不是有更深一層的含義在裡面是不是已經放了其他的其他的不同的病毒在裡面之類的第二個就是他們有表示他們要立威請問為什麼台灣要拿來被他們立威呢"},{"start":6655.285,"end":6658.027,"text":"請具體一點因為我們這個具體一點未來如果還有一樣的公期10月10號快到了未來如果還有一樣的公期的時候請問"},{"start":6682.947,"end":6711.562,"text":"速發部該怎麼樣幫助我們這些可能會被攻擊的單位我們已經提升治安的警戒所以目前就是已經全動員就是在目前那個就是我們已經提升這個警戒就是我們會加強這個monitor就是監控然後防護所以但是我跟委員講就是說我們要民間機構來配合有些CIA來配合我們有一個法正在立法院送立法院就是治安"},{"start":6712.242,"end":6728.434,"text":"謝謝部長不好意思我時間有限那我們現在回到打詐上面因為這時事題很重要這個都是不管是打詐也好都是有關這是治安的一部分嘛那我想請問一下說我剛剛看到這份打詐的專題報告講說我們把20億還給了受害人那請問部長知道我們今年"},{"start":6729.715,"end":6751.825,"text":"總共被騙的金額是多少億嗎?那個報告委員今年的那個數目是蠻多請問今年多少億?今年你不能只跟我們講說老實講你們這三份報告給國人看的時候他們會覺得說噢真的有那麼你真的為什麼我們還是覺得身邊的詐騙越來越多為什麼我是覺得說我們打詐打詐國家都打不到為什麼越打越詐"},{"start":6753.038,"end":6774.714,"text":"這才是為什麼我要問因為你這邊很明顯說跟我講說以返還受害人的所損害金額高達20億但是總共配了多少呢我在資料查到在資料上面查到光7月份我們受害就110億然後剛9月5號那一天9月4號還是9月5號9月4號那一天我們就差不多4億1000多萬"},{"start":6779.397,"end":6798.296,"text":"一天就4億1千多萬那你們現在很高興跟我們講我們還了20億給我們受害人老實講這樣會讓我們民眾覺得幸福嗎數字會說話數字不會騙人那我現在只想知道說到目前今天10月7號為止我們台灣到底有我們台灣到底已知的受詐騙的金額是多少"},{"start":6799.403,"end":6815.753,"text":"到今天為止,10月4號好了對,這個最後統計在警政署那邊,不過我跟委員大概多少,總共有個Ball Talk Number應該不只,因為7月份就110億,光7月份一整個月就110億,那整年大概多少"},{"start":6818.018,"end":6841.652,"text":"我必須要講就是說我們現在很多黑數出現是因為我們鼓勵就是說我們的確有加強宣導以後很多因為被詐騙的人不是今天才被詐騙他可能是半年前一年前被詐騙不好意思我順便加一句為什麼我想知道因為我們一直說打詐國家打詐國家隊打詐國家隊從打詐國家隊出來的時候對民眾的印象來講至少我所感覺到印象來講越打越詐越打詐騙越猖狂"},{"start":6842.773,"end":6861.782,"text":"甚至說我們越來越多年輕人跑去當詐騙集團他們不想當然我們知道這有社會因素有整個經濟的因素存在但是我們似乎我們如果在制度面我們不把握機會把他這個風氣把他擋下來的話那我們其實是沒我們這樣做說再怎麼樣花再多經費再怎麼樣做大內宣都不會有用的"},{"start":6862.162,"end":6886.318,"text":"甚至這樣講 資訊在未來是最重要的我想訴發部部長應該最知道資訊現在搞不好比現金還重要而如果以資訊來講我們的平台的管制其實是必須要再加強的因為平台的管制來講我剛剛看了你們整個訴發部的打詐成效跟防制我看完之後覺得我們是不是把我們的整個系統的設置跟我們法規的設置比較像美國"},{"start":6887.259,"end":6901.853,"text":"也就是說我們什麼都選美國的時候就讓他的使用者不停的去做他們的事情我們覺得平台都是無辜的平台我們不能平台不負責使用者的行為是不是我們現在在這個歐盟針對使用者"},{"start":6902.774,"end":6927.242,"text":"如果他們已經察覺到有所謂的違法甚至有害的行為他們是會予以是予以罰款的我們有這個機制嗎打詐專法會予以根本有這樣的罰款的機制沒錯而且那我想請問一下如果他們是不是現在還是要只有確定是打詐的廣告他們才會檢舉如果不是如果是只是說OK我今天如果用李寬哲、李賢昭偉的照片上面隨便貼了一個"},{"start":6929.182,"end":6953.332,"text":"粉絲專頁那我送出去之後如果沒有人說這是詐騙是不是就會過關我們會有幾個系統一個就是我們會我們自己有系統會去掃描會看到這樣的話我們會把他要求向臉書要求他下架我們有這樣一個機制我們從9月從8月20多快我記得以前跟我以前有講過24小時之內要下架24小時之內會臉書會配合下架那其他的頻道呢"},{"start":6953.832,"end":6956.054,"text":"我們有6個平台是我們納管這6個平台都要配合不然他就會被罰款"},{"start":6972.328,"end":6987.249,"text":"為什麼我會把這件事特技拿出來講這麼激動因為治安也好打詐也好跟我們息息相關越來越接近了而老實講數位發展部既然是個部我們對他就有更高的期待更更高的要求而且這是符合國人期待不然就當作就不要數位發展部"},{"start":6988.21,"end":6989.311,"text":"我們納管的數位經濟產業我們會好好的監督"},{"start":7019.079,"end":7029.965,"text":"好 謝謝林佩江委員我們接下來詢答待會到何新淳委員之後休息10分鐘有請李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":7038.626,"end":7060.771,"text":"謝謝昭緯 針對今天早上開會的這個議事的程序我真的是大開眼界 要求NCC能夠坐在座位上來做報告那如果NCC在座位上來做報告 那立委不就要躺著聽嗎投手本來就是要站在投手球 哪有說從休息室、從檸檬來投球的"},{"start":7063.679,"end":7087.772,"text":"這都是非常奇怪的一件事另外沒有讓恩琪琪的代理主委來做報告請主秘來報告我們可以去指定對方的投手是誰嗎人家先發投手這個我們不要我們要其他的投手這都是很奇怪有時候我們要修理別人但踐踏的是誰的尊嚴這個大家要好好的思考謝謝趙委請一下黃部長黃部長"},{"start":7094.755,"end":7111.221,"text":"部長這兩天就是10月5號某個知名網路的購物平台他其實遭到民眾質疑他的使用者的資料是不是被盜或者是駭客入侵導致他們的帳戶被盜用"},{"start":7112.562,"end":7137.242,"text":"那帳號內的儲值金啊被花用殆盡的這種狀況目前查到大概是有8個人啊他的受害者的這個金額已經超過百萬元那網路購物平台啊他們有去做了解跟澄清他們認為說他們沒有被駭客入侵是使用者的資料被盜用那就是所謂的這一種"},{"start":7140.52,"end":7156.252,"text":"帳號的填充供給就是我們所謂的狀酷供給那就是駭客收集這些使用者的名稱、密碼等等的這樣的一個訊息來使用自動化的技術嘗試各個網站進行登入"},{"start":7156.972,"end":7164.295,"text":"最後撞擊出正確的名稱跟密碼這個現代人很多都這樣都用同樣的一個帳號Gmail的帳號或是密碼都同樣的認為這樣比較好記那其實有這樣的狀況那"},{"start":7171.83,"end":7196.437,"text":"數位部了不了解這樣的狀況來完全了解在掌握中我請那個素材署的副署長來說明一下我們跟這家公司聯絡那剛剛就陳如委員剛剛講的他們就是駭客用鑽庫供給的方式那他們有把有儲值軍的先把他們先登出之後請他們用OTP再驗證一次目前是應該是他說相對沒有問題以上"},{"start":7198.157,"end":7219.858,"text":"臺灣啊 其實部長你知不知道最近有個Who's Call還有全球黃渣聯盟跟新加坡政府合作的一個亞洲詐騙調查報告有一個臺灣篇他們認為目前臺灣最大宗的詐騙手法就是各自的盜用那這個部分我們是希望能夠第一個"},{"start":7222.01,"end":7240.939,"text":"嚴厲協助業者來進行相關的資安的管理改善而如果說他們業者願意超前提高安全的這些層級的業者是否會有講注的措施來加強使用者的這一些個人資安的管理以及維護來說明一下"},{"start":7243.12,"end":7257.536,"text":"這個委員建議很好我們回去再延續一下不過我跟委員講就是因為這剛剛報告前面委員都提到說這個帳號被這個密碼被盜用或這種問題我會特別也這邊呼籲國人就是說密碼是"},{"start":7258.737,"end":7281.169,"text":"被盜是常常有所以密碼的選擇很重要一定要夠安全那當然也讓大家知道就是說現在有很多技術可以防止密碼被盜比如說像多因子認證一定要使用多因子認證就是說不是只有簡單的user ID password就進入一個系統而是你必須在經過第三個第二層的一個驗證像one time password或者是簡訊的通知"},{"start":7281.949,"end":7308.272,"text":"再進入系統,這樣會保護你的部長剛才提到是業者那公部門的部分我們要加強公部門的資安的管理措施來確保這些相關的保護層級能夠與時俱進來保障民眾的這個個資這個希望數位部要擔起這個責任另外我們看到數位產業的發展其實是非常的快速產業的發展其實也"},{"start":7309.173,"end":7321.786,"text":"有讓這些新型的犯罪形態多樣化而且產生這樣的一個對民眾權益的這個衝擊那他其實這些多樣的犯罪形態也包括詐騙"},{"start":7323.695,"end":7323.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7342.557,"end":7344.338,"text":"來造成這些小孩子一輩子永遠的傷害跟陰影"},{"start":7369.912,"end":7380.055,"text":"那其實這個件數非常多我看衛福部由統計而掃的這種新剝削的案件是逐年的增加2021年1848件2022年2271件2023年3346件部長你們有察覺到這個嚴重性嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":7391.658,"end":7408.328,"text":"那個這方面當然我們一直有在monitor啦當然我們有一個機制就是可以停止解析的一個機制就是說如果今天兒少問題如果是衛福部有送通知給我們對某些網站要停止解析限制流量我們都會處理"},{"start":7409.088,"end":7429.822,"text":"那過去事實上我們處理類似案件已經處理到6萬多件了也就是說我們停止解析像這種兒少或者是詐騙的網站已經有這個從這個不管是檢調警檢調單位或者是衛福部對這種案件的一些這個所謂的這個案例的處理我們有配合處理大概目前有處理6萬多件從去年到現在"},{"start":7430.562,"end":7444.587,"text":"但是增加還是逐年增加?這就是說我們完全就用機制、用技術來配合處理當然就是說這個的monitor還是在部長,我們要加強跟這個教育宣導"},{"start":7446.141,"end":7468.651,"text":"而且要強化業者還有衛福部以及數位部的多方的合作那新少年的這個群體他們不管是數位知識、風險評估或是安全的意識是普遍不足現在使用手機的小朋友年紀越來越小父母常常會把手機給小孩"},{"start":7470.298,"end":7494.294,"text":"這種小孩使用3C的產品也越來越普遍我們要針對性的加強教育跟宣導這個有做嗎 來說明一下我們在那個不同的管道包括像資訊樂還有一些這個所謂的公開的那個我們會去做這樣的宣導還是不足啦 這個部分還是不足啦有那麼多小朋友受騙啊我看到某個這個"},{"start":7496.455,"end":7502.705,"text":"知名的遊戲平台他就自行封鎖了291個這種詐騙的帳號那表示單單這個遊戲平台就有超過300名以上的"},{"start":7509.619,"end":7525.525,"text":"而少的受害者這一種是非常越來越嚴重了要加強宣導另外我們要針對社交模式的遊戲業者要建立檢舉的管道建立社群規範及公司內部的安全文化這個有做嗎來說明"},{"start":7526.405,"end":7542.91,"text":"我們跟那個幾個大平台像LINE或是像那個Facebook是有這樣的管道那他們也有自己的自律的機制所以如果是他們自己發現他們自己會下架那如果是我們發現我們會叫他下架所以這個這樣的管道是有當然就是還有需要更多的努力因為那個這種這個"},{"start":7545.831,"end":7549.152,"text":"現在有受害者這種影片外流的這種憂慮那衛福部有一個新影像的處理中心這個要加強業者以及衛福部以及跟數位部必須要加強合作"},{"start":7572.276,"end":7597.956,"text":"那這些外流影像可以轉化成數據的代碼衛福部的這個新影像處理中心轉化成代碼有它的獨特性就是所謂的數位指紋這種代碼數位指紋可以提供代碼給合作這些下架的業者而且能夠自動偵測預防這些影像的上傳這個有沒有做呢來處理一下瞭解一下說明一下"},{"start":7600.7,"end":7621.54,"text":"我們現在針對AI生成或Deepfake生成的我們會要求類似湖水運的那些標記所以以後大家可以辨識那這個是虛偽的這是AI的部分嘛那我說針對這些被性剝削的這些兒少他們相關的影像我們不讓他繼續的外流有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":7622.461,"end":7649.78,"text":"像這種數位的指紋這樣的一個數位的代碼會傳到各個業者請他們要加強來處理嗎這個我們會跟這樣的技術我們跟業者再來討論就是說事實上剛剛講這個代碼或是說有民眾利用比如說LINE這樣品牌傳這種東西的話就要跟LINE去配合這個我們再來目前是沒有目前會保護下一代保護澳大利亞是我們重要的責任這種"},{"start":7651.081,"end":7652.443,"text":"接下來有請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":7676.046,"end":7685.774,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們是不是先請內政部警政署,請副署長跟刑事警察局的副局長好,李副署長跟副局長等一下再請我們數位發展部好,黃部長一起好了"},{"start":7698.94,"end":7726.409,"text":"副處長還有副局長其實包括我們黃部長在這裡不管我們的打詐國家隊現在從修法到執法規的預告公告到未來的執行其實不管是1.0、1.5、2.0不管重點的是民眾要的是要一點就零零是什麼?要防詐而且要阻詐而且要破案"},{"start":7727.589,"end":7753.961,"text":"我接下來剛剛李崑哲委員有講到這個現在最多臺灣在發生上的這個所謂壯庫的攻擊那駭客的事那其實最近上個月我看今天的新聞就講上個月高鐵就是這樣子高鐵就是駭客入侵有500多名的會員的點數被盜那像我自己本人在颱風天的時候那幾天"},{"start":7755.842,"end":7778.539,"text":"聽說我的高鐵的這個點數的賬戶也被駭進來雖然我的點數沒有被盜用但是呢今天看到新聞說我們有抓到這個高鐵案已經破案了這個會員的點數被盜用這一件事情已經有了一個結果當然要先肯定但是我要講的是什麼高鐵我們可以快速的破案那其他的詐騙案呢"},{"start":7780.441,"end":7795.661,"text":"現在詐騙好像在我們民眾的生活當中剛剛很多委員都有提到欸連我自己啊收到高鐵跟我來的確認的電子E-mail我都還不確定說是真的假的連我自己都要先懷疑一下說我收到的訊息是真的假的"},{"start":7796.061,"end":7810.466,"text":"所以現在在資訊爆炸的今天很多民眾收到的訊息都不知道是真的假的那尤其你看颱風天這幾天更是這是你們內政部警政署給我們的打詐儀表板上面這個受理數328件財損數2億4千多萬"},{"start":7817.429,"end":7832.067,"text":"那都是第一個網路上來的詐騙手法前五名全部通通都跟我們的網路訊息跟我們的這個簡訊通通有關係那如果以縣市來比一比這是你們提供給我剛剛那一頁好不好剛剛那一頁謝謝"},{"start":7834.096,"end":7861.952,"text":"新北市第一名、桃園市第二名、臺中市第三名臺豐來、詐騙一樣、橫行下一頁那我們再來看喔,縣市比一比數字很嚇人這是照今年最新8月的一個資料那今年的8月份詐騙集團被查獲的第一名臺中市給臺中市警察局鼓鼓掌第一名"},{"start":7864.022,"end":7880.276,"text":"扣的不法得利也是臺中市第一名那我現在就要請教一下我們副署長就你的解讀這個是我們臺中市警察局的警察很會辦案還是這個詐騙集團把臺中當作大本營"},{"start":7882.216,"end":7909.651,"text":"我想每一個縣市因為網路的犯罪他應該是不限於地區的但是我們公布的打詐的一般表對沒有錯我們公布的打詐一表版最主要的就是要讓全民知道說目前詐欺犯罪的概況是什麼然後類型是什麼所以以目前詐欺犯罪的這個概況以你的解讀台中市是第一名"},{"start":7911.204,"end":7937.142,"text":"當然是發生的多這個破獲的就多了其實發生的多破獲的就多那我現在站在中央我要求警政署那是不是不分縣市那既然台中市第一名表示我們查獲的多那可能發生數就是多那可能詐騙集團也有可能把台中當作大本營那我們這個城市的"},{"start":7939.083,"end":7965.407,"text":"到底是要怎麼樣來解讀我覺得我身為台中市的市民我也是台中市的中央民意代表我對這個數字我是覺得一則以喜一則以憂啊副署長因為我們提供的那個發聲的數跟PO的數就是提供給委員是正確的嘛而且這是你們現在發布在官方的數字我相信黑數還更多"},{"start":7967.182,"end":7979.063,"text":"對不對因為我們現在那個刑事紀錄表都整合在一起了所以一發生報案就馬上在後台裡面就就陳述了副署長我只是希望包括我們副局長"},{"start":7980.953,"end":8008.455,"text":"既然呢你剛剛講的發生數多、查獲數多那這個我就把它認為是正向的第一個我們呢也積極在查緝第二個我剛剛說一則於喜一則於憂憂的是那發生數就相對的比較多那這個我們希望中央警政署是不是可以要求地方的警察局我們是不是可以再更加強查緝這個是沒有問題的我想我們打"},{"start":8008.715,"end":8030.781,"text":"主要讓我們台中市看起來好像是詐騙集團的基地一樣那以我們最近高檢署所發動三波的這個打詐的工作就是展現了一些成效出來是 所以我希望成效更好因為台中旺志興切我們希望治安可以更好詐騙可以更少"},{"start":8035.063,"end":8043.668,"text":"臺中好像變成是詐騙集團的一個基地或大本營這樣子的稱號這個絕對不是我們想要的所以要拜託警政署好不好接下來我現在請黃部長部長"},{"start":8046.79,"end":8064.078,"text":"剛剛那些詐騙其實很多人都知道手機訊息陌生來電詐騙好像在我們生活當中無所不在那透過這些網路的各平台那我自己的數字其實也都是警政署給我們的我相信部長你也應該都知道"},{"start":8064.778,"end":8085.73,"text":"那所以我才會說我們現在打詐不管是幾點零從之前的1.0到現在1.5到2.0那我們行政院卓院長宣示呢經費預算我們要從打詐的預算13億要增加到73億這些其實對民眾來講都是數字那我們真正能做的民眾希望的是"},{"start":8087.215,"end":8104.247,"text":"要根除要越來越少我生活當中我不要再發生有這個手機的訊號啦或者是網路平台的這個假帳號啦假廣告等等所以我現在就問黃部長我們釋法也通過了那我們現在能做的是什麼"},{"start":8106.57,"end":8128.828,"text":"報告委員這個剛剛講就是釋法通過之後我們現在訂制法之後會對我們管因為我們數發部管幾個平台包括Facebook、臉書或是Line或是Google或是TikTok那現在很多詐騙的確沒錯剛剛委員看到就是有列一個台灣期間兩億四千萬那一個其實那個裡面有兩億是投資詐騙"},{"start":8129.929,"end":8152.237,"text":"那投資詐騙裡面事實上絕大部分是經過像臉書方式來詐騙所以我們在臉書有在剛剛講不管是目前因為執法還沒通過所以我們是跟他喝咖啡不過喝咖啡已經看到效果就是說從我們一個月有八萬個所謂的投資詐騙的廣告下降到現在一個月大概是一萬四千個當然不是很理想"},{"start":8153.678,"end":8161.023,"text":"你剛剛說以前可能一個月有8萬多的投資廣告的一個禮書的廣告8萬個投資詐騙廣告到現在9月看到1萬4千個只有1萬4千個"},{"start":8167.461,"end":8192.489,"text":"一萬四千個也有一萬四千多無限的可能性被詐騙的民眾但是就是說我們希望打詐專法通過之後因為實名制的關係我們這些納管之後希望能夠降到很低當然最好是零部長我現在就要講民眾不管你的執法規有沒有公告民眾是希望這個詐騙現在進行式的詐騙的手法能夠呢透過政府有效的工具能夠遏止所以怎麼防"},{"start":8194.89,"end":8220.42,"text":"我們現在有一個叫網路詐騙通報查詢網現在在9月30號有這個就是Beta版有提供給民眾做測試民眾也可以用這個工具來查你所看到訊息是不是詐騙訊息那用這種方式來讓民眾能夠試詐跟防詐所以工具我們會精進那另外就是說我們在這個剛剛講就是跟平台業者的溝通跟下架速度會加速希望民眾"},{"start":8221.961,"end":8250.522,"text":"剛剛講講因為我們很多詐騙尤其剛很多金額高金額詐騙都是因為投資詐騙那投資詐騙我們這個是我們第一個要處理很多投資詐騙是從平台網路廣告平台進來沒有錯所以這個是我們納管的下架要迅速第二個要教導民眾如何試詐那這個要跟平台共同來合作對不對那這個未來呢我們不管這個執法規的公告與否這個現在進行是我們就是現在就要再主詐希望能夠防止嘛"},{"start":8251.443,"end":8264.133,"text":"那尤其呢假廣告假訊息可以攔截假帳號如何解決我覺得這個要變成是我們政府各機關要跟平台進一步的去假帳號如何杜絕"},{"start":8265.874,"end":8281.953,"text":"那在設立帳號的前端平台可以用什麼樣的有效工具可以攔截出身份有問題的或者是重複的或者是惡意的一些帳號這些我相信部長我們是有這個技術工具可以去"},{"start":8283.415,"end":8304.15,"text":"也有法規我們就剛才講就是說這個納管裡面要求的就是要實名制啊就登廣告跟投資廣告跟出錢做廣告的人他必須要實名制那用實名制的結果就會杜絕這個講假假假名稱的假人民的委員部長我必須要講說我們要快啊這個詐騙手法太多了剛剛有委員講嘛道高一尺磨高一丈嘛"},{"start":8304.81,"end":8330.202,"text":"那我們呢像刑事警察局165有一個全民詐騙網有告訴大家有什麼資料可是但是日新月異有些的詐騙的手法已經不是在我們這個名列的這些項目裡面所以你知道嗎現在臉書裡面租網站剛開學剛開學的這個之前啊看房付訂金訂金被騙"},{"start":8331.423,"end":8352.158,"text":"我們很多的年輕人學生就這樣被騙這是正在進行式而且呢是今年這幾年比較新的手法我用這個是來跟你講說詐騙的手法是越來越新而且不斷的在轉換那不斷的在轉換的情況之下我們如何從根源去把它阻斷我覺得這個是最重要的"},{"start":8352.438,"end":8352.899,"text":"好,我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8389.292,"end":8407.864,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8424.538,"end":8425.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8448.254,"end":8453.697,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8472.404,"end":8474.566,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8495.981,"end":8509.515,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8526.261,"end":8546.085,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8562.299,"end":8575.172,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8590.163,"end":8594.129,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8596.903,"end":8615.93,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8627.554,"end":8632.216,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8666.74,"end":8667.46,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8678.723,"end":8679.664,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8717.075,"end":8723.62,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8742.466,"end":8762.815,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8777.973,"end":8784.379,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8815.822,"end":8832.716,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8845.686,"end":8852.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8878.288,"end":8886.718,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8891.546,"end":8892.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8907.19,"end":8917.183,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8920.708,"end":8933.609,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8983.968,"end":8992.553,"text":"好謝謝請大家就座好我們會議繼續接下來有請陳樹葉召委發言"},{"start":9003.357,"end":9003.779,"text":"警政署副署長"},{"start":9024.282,"end":9038.381,"text":"副署長早安本委會今天是針對這個打詐成效跟防制做這個專題的報告那所以本席在這邊就先針對這個打詐的成效這個部分來瞭解"},{"start":9039.082,"end":9066.931,"text":"因為我們知道事實上現在在國內在基層民眾對於這個詐騙的這個氾濫真的是深惡痛絕那我們也看到我們就是警政署的一個統計的一個數字這個詐騙的這個數字真的是也一直在增加當中所以就是說如何有效的來防止這個詐騙真的非常的重要那我發現說我們在內政部警政署165全民防騙網"},{"start":9068.712,"end":9083.204,"text":"是這個網頁嗎我是從這網頁看到我們目前有一個新的這個就是資訊就是打詐以表板這樣子的一個資訊的揭露我想先請教一下副署長用意是什麼有什麼作用"},{"start":9084.126,"end":9106.405,"text":"謝謝委員我們警政署公布的打詐儀表版最主要就是說讓全民知道說每一天目前詐騙案件的件數還有損失的金額那我們透過這樣透明化就表示說我們希望用負責的態度來分析每一件發生的這個類型"},{"start":9108.406,"end":9124.491,"text":"還有地點、方式進而擬定相關的計畫來加以打擊詐欺犯罪這個是最主要我們的目的是,是你們的目的可是你覺得說這樣子的資訊揭露有用嗎?有發揮什麼作用嗎?"},{"start":9125.424,"end":9146.918,"text":"那當然啦,因為我們除了公布這個儀表板以外我們就是透過我們內政部主管的市詐的部分把這個推播給各警察機關當作素材希望能夠加強的宣導讓民眾知道說目前的詐騙犯罪的方式進而自己提高警戒"},{"start":9147.907,"end":9168.156,"text":"是,就是說就我來看啊,或者是說我覺得說一般民眾如果看到這樣子的一個資訊啊,我覺得一點就是都無感啊,我覺得沒有什麼意義啊。因為看到這麼多的詐騙的數字,我覺得說只是會讓民眾更加的覺得說我們政府打詐不利、防詐不利。"},{"start":9170.154,"end":9198.069,"text":"但是以我們從這個8月29號開始公布儀表版以來從原來的每一天600多件金額損失4億多元到現在為止到10月4號我現在手邊的資料10月4號現在是490幾件損失金額2億多元所以從原來的五六百件然後這個4億多元"},{"start":9199.97,"end":9227.44,"text":"我們現在以現在來看好像有下降的趨勢就是說從四五六百件到現在大概三四百件當然就是副署長在這邊講我們才知道可是你們的這個網頁的一個資訊的揭露這個部分卻沒有特別的去強調我覺得這就是非常可惜的地方應該你們要把因為我看了你們的這個整個網站的一個資訊裡面"},{"start":9228.94,"end":9241.927,"text":"裏面有各種分析的數據包括財損或者受理數字各個縣市的受理件數等等都有做一個統計跟分類其中有包括打詐成效的一個數據"},{"start":9243.626,"end":9263.993,"text":"我覺得這部分才是最重要的嘛你應該要讓民眾知道我們政府到底做了多少事情包括你在這邊這個成效數據裡面有提到查獲的集團有293件然後有多少人嗎2621人然後查扣不罰所得還有攬主的金額高達15億然後"},{"start":9266.474,"end":9266.994,"text":"我們這一部分在努力"},{"start":9288.886,"end":9295.566,"text":"是不是這部分要再加強一下我們請那個書法部黃部長一起上台那請副署長留著"},{"start":9298.393,"end":9320.11,"text":"就是其實在整個剛剛就是說警政署他們揭露的這個資訊裡面詐騙第一名就是假投資詐騙這個真的是這個件數最多而且損失金額也是最高的那我看最近就是我們警政署他們也做了一個表都是在加強宣導那事實上在地方我們也"},{"start":9320.35,"end":9320.67,"text":"警察同仁防詐宣導"},{"start":9335.495,"end":9350.387,"text":"我們警察同仁也是在提醒大家就是說這個投資詐騙的一個流程希望提醒民眾怎樣去防止這個就是被詐騙上當那本席在這邊舉一個很實際的一個例子就是我曾經受理過的一個投資詐騙的一個案例"},{"start":9353.729,"end":9376.981,"text":"那這個表真的就是呈現了這樣子的一個過程可是沒有真正去上當過的或者是一般人根本不知道這個流程到底有隱藏什麼樣的一個危機那我之前在大概今年3月初的時候就是我地方有一個選民他也是真的就是透過網路看到了這個謝金河的一個網頁就是說"},{"start":9377.561,"end":9377.681,"text":"投資理財的"},{"start":9397.597,"end":9397.837,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9413.962,"end":9428.331,"text":"訊息回覆說他已經有獲利了60多萬所以他照理他的賬戶就有160幾萬的這個就是金額那他也想試試看說他是不是真的這個真的就是一個投資的那個"},{"start":9429.548,"end":9449.09,"text":"李財公司所以他也跟他說他需要錢所以希望他會這個就是他的獲利40多萬給他那他真的這個對方也真的會了40多萬到他指定的郵局去了所以他也就讓他覺得說這個應該就是真的了可是後來這個教授就跟他說"},{"start":9450.692,"end":9474.526,"text":"要幫他圈購股票然後後來通知說他有買到了一家這個股票就是大概63張然後要600多萬然後要他再去就是投入這個錢然後他那時候人在國外他就覺得說他帳戶裡面後來他的獲利被告知說應該已經有達到2000萬左右了他就覺得說那以他帳戶的錢去付這個600多萬是夠的"},{"start":9477.168,"end":9489.999,"text":"可是對方一直跟他說不行一定要他拿現金去他才覺得說好像有一點有點好像是詐騙的那種感覺所以才來找我所以後來我們幫他釐清了之後這個確定就是一個詐騙的一個一個流程一個詐騙集團"},{"start":9494.483,"end":9509.461,"text":"所以我們覺得說但後面還有一個部分就是說他那時候一直對方催他要去付那個錢的時候他跟他說他沒那麼多現金然後他也跟他說他可以用不動產去抵押所以他也就拿了一塊地要去融資"},{"start":9510.742,"end":9530.729,"text":"那後來因為就是說投資的人跟那個土地的名字不同人所以對方說不行所以就這樣子他那個地還好就沒有去融資所以我要講的是說在這樣子一個流程裡面其實涉及的很多的一個環節就是第一個當然就是這個投資的網頁就是涉及到我們速發部"},{"start":9532.449,"end":9558.177,"text":"要怎樣去管理這個網路上非常氾濫的假名人投資的這個部分因為我平常在看滑手機的時候就會跳出很多的這些名人的這個投資的廣告包括謝金河包括我們的新的經濟部長剛上任就被冒名了也包括我們立委也有被冒名的所以我覺得說這部分先請教這個部長就是說我們有主動去"},{"start":9567.319,"end":9583.883,"text":"報告委員,我們的確這是一個大問題,像委員這張圖所講的那個百分之九十幾是來自Metal就是Facebook的廣告那假名是一個大宗所以我們520之後我們上任就針對這個有開始在積極處理包括跟Facebook我們喝了好幾次咖啡"},{"start":9584.423,"end":9612.977,"text":"那當然就是說現在我們有AI去掃描整個整個的網頁看到這種類似假名人我們就通告臉書下架那目前的成效當然還不是很完整就是說因為我們等到打詐狀況通過之後會有所謂的要求所謂KYC就是實名制啦這時候會把那個假名人廣告完全杜絕不過在這之前利用我們這樣的AI技術我們可以掃描目前已經從過去大概一個月4萬多個假名人廣告現在下降到不到1萬"},{"start":9613.757,"end":9629.88,"text":"但是還是有還是有但是他有很多變化但是我相信這個東西在我們在打詐裝法的打詐執法開始實施之後應該可以幾乎完全杜絕那當然這個這個是一個大問題我們希望從法規從技術面去完全解決"},{"start":9631.519,"end":9647.77,"text":"我剛舉的這個例子也符合我們警政署做出來的圖卡流程事實上就是這樣子一個模式所以在這樣一個過程裡面當然就涉及到假投資詐騙的網頁那有包括假投資公司的一個下架這是我們訴發部的"},{"start":9648.871,"end":9666.012,"text":"的一個業務,那包括就是說這個融資公司的部分就是可能就是涉及到金管會的一個業務,那因為時間關係可能今天沒有辦法做一個詳細的一個就是詢問,那我們也希望就是說在這樣子的過程裡面,事實上"},{"start":9666.673,"end":9694.295,"text":"投資這個詐騙或者是說其他類型的一個詐騙案我們是希望就是說各部會要緊密的合作那我們當然在這邊再次肯定這個警政署、警察同仁的用心那希望在這個各個環節裡面我們可以就是更加的密切的配合然後做得更好讓我們的詐騙案件能夠破獲的件數就是更多然後讓我們國人對我們打詐的成效有信心這樣"},{"start":9695.717,"end":9696.439,"text":"接下來有請油化委員發言"},{"start":9717.6,"end":9732.118,"text":"感謝張偉那先有請這個我們數位發展部部長黃部長以及行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃志明黃志明OK 謝謝"},{"start":9740.354,"end":9763.773,"text":"委員好那在這裡還是要感謝在這邊今天許多單位對於國內這個打詐的議題等同於是國安的議題在盡心盡力那在目前來講我們辦公室還其實有稍微看了一下這次的五個單位的一個報告那以及相關的資料我們剛剛在辦公室也討論了很久"},{"start":9764.574,"end":9789.816,"text":"那在目前來講13億的經費在明年度希望能夠提升到73億嘛等於是提高了大概是4.8倍那我們扣掉封面在這次等於就是幾乎快年底了這五個在立法院的報告從上次的1.5到3月的時候在立法院專案報告到現在大概差不多也過了7個月那也算是一個期末考"},{"start":9790.416,"end":9815.734,"text":"那在這次的5個的專題報告行政院的報告是1308字通傳會是4895字書發部3626字金管會3886字法務部3078字共16793字這樣子的部分如果以13億的預算下去除大家今天在立法院的一個期末報告每個字價值是77413塊每一個字"},{"start":9820.136,"end":9837.481,"text":"明年度提升預算每個字換算5份報告的成本每個字價值37萬在這裡提出的是錢要花在刀口上我們看到了許多提出的成效跟報告"},{"start":9838.801,"end":9857.952,"text":"當然跟民眾的期待還是有很大的落差啦所以還是期望說大家各單位各部會我們還是要持續的加油還讓這個打詐的這個績效還能夠更能夠有成果當然說字數跟報告的篇幅代表一切但是在目前來講大家看到許多的一個"},{"start":9858.712,"end":9878.093,"text":"打詐越打越多去年詐騙4萬件財損88億到今年的話甚至大幅的提高那在裡面有許多的部分我們都需要來做檢討那在這裡的話我想要先就教一下為什麼今天行政院打擊指揮中心的指揮官沒有來想請教一下子敏"},{"start":9879.454,"end":9893.464,"text":"感謝委員因為今天在排定的時候並沒有特別的指定成績那那個指揮官另外有其他的行程所以說我就先來如果有不周到的地方我們會立即轉達感謝委員"},{"start":9894.645,"end":9918.164,"text":"希望未來的話有關於打詐的議題這指揮關係一定要到當然我也肯定這個國師兄你的過去在偵察隊的這個對實務方面的這個經驗所以你才從不管是從我們看到不管是橫山分局長包括鳳林分局長到真六隊、真七隊還現在直接來擔綱如此重任"},{"start":9918.985,"end":9926.05,"text":"那我想問一下在目前行政院的這個打詐辦公室大概總共除了你之外有沒有副指揮官"},{"start":9927.524,"end":9956.004,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個那個設置條例是只有指揮官一名執行秘書一名但是我們各部會都有派駐相關的業務窗口進駐到打詐指揮中心那有沒有庫大其他還有多少新增的人力除了派駐是的目前我們也在研議有兩個部會因為有在實質上在施詐的面向是有需要的那指揮官也同時在跟院方的高層在討論要再增加新的人員"},{"start":9958.547,"end":9961.992,"text":"目前有需要的事會再多一到兩位會進來"},{"start":9973.868,"end":10002.546,"text":"因為誠如各位委員都持續在關心的因為打詐的議題確實是一個目前牽涉到的國安問題那我們也希望發揮到團體打戰的力量那未來再需要的話今年度確實編列的不足那都只有在業務費用那未來會視狀況做滾動式的彈性調整那個本席還是要指出就是當然是肯定大家每一位打詐同仁的努力"},{"start":10003.306,"end":10032.467,"text":"那但是今天如果說這個等同於國安議題的這個打詐的問題啊還在這個指揮中心指揮官如果在重要會議沒關係下一次的話邀請他一定要到那有沒有協同的副指揮官那以及說再增加一到兩名的人力這樣是否再整合這個相關的一些部會來講人力夠充足嗎派駐歸派駐因為今天這個指揮中心啊他的概念上他不是會診資料而已啊"},{"start":10032.887,"end":10059.718,"text":"他是要整合業務啊還要整合技術啊那如果說今天來講沒有增加更多的一個能力甚至專業的人才他就要來直接擔綱這個指揮中心的業務我坦白講這樣就單純就只是在會整個單位資料這樣是非常可惜那同樣的在指揮官從上一次的李憲明他是建築專業那帶到這次的馬世元那個副次長"},{"start":10060.498,"end":10089.192,"text":"他也是一個建築專業那本席在這裡還是要指出當然就是馬市長他過去來講這個指揮官一定也有他的經驗在可是今天在打詐如此重要的這種議題上面這個不是賴油油這個還是要以專業導向為主如果說今天是在警政或是在法務部檢察官等等或是相關通訊技術有專業的他包括像部長也是專業的大家在這個部分來去做整合"},{"start":10089.952,"end":10106.455,"text":"那我坦白講那這個大家相對不管朝野立委都比較能接受但是如果說只是做彙整的話我覺得話沒有辦法達到這個成效何況還要再把預算從13億提高到73億所以我覺得這個部分我覺得行政院必須要重新思考"},{"start":10107.276,"end":10134.062,"text":"那再來再來我們看到這個剛才有看到幾個就是通訊軟體不管是我們看到我們書發部其實有跟不管是Facebook、TikTok或是包括Line都來做這個相關的溝通或是喝咖啡那想請教一下部長那目前這幾個就是廣告平台哪一個配合就是數位部的績效最好速度最快"},{"start":10134.962,"end":10163.374,"text":"報告委員其實這幾家平台都有誠意要配合因為他們也都覺得詐騙是一個很嚴重的問題那速度最快的是哪一個?提了這6家的國防平台業者其實都有在配合這個速度我沒辦法講不過我也覺得就是說當然我們現在看到Facebook上的詐騙最多所以它下降的數目是最多因為目前我剛剛有講就是說在所謂有些是投資詐騙從過去一個月可以到8萬多個假的投資詐騙到現在大概4萬"},{"start":10164.794,"end":10165.635,"text":"廣告平台驗者必須以實名制登錄"},{"start":10180.586,"end":10207.429,"text":"我相信各種的這種網路上虛擬都必須要以實名為主那再來剛才有提到這個LINE的部分他們要傳票、搜索票才能夠提供這個進度儘不論目前有核定多少章、辦過多少案這一個概念啊今天家是自己買的找小偷了找警察把小偷趕走了就到說這個家變成不是自己的就變成是小偷的這就像LINE的帳號被暴用的帳號一樣"},{"start":10208.63,"end":10224.26,"text":"所以我覺得說數大部還是要積極溝通不僅是實名制還有包括這些被盜用帳號的人能夠歸黃帳號我覺得還是要有賴部長下一次溝通後能夠跟各界說明我這個回去再跟NINE去討論好 謝謝好 謝謝油耗委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":10247.387,"end":10250.031,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請這個數位部黃部長黃部長"},{"start":10259.076,"end":10276.287,"text":"好部長好部長我想今天當然主要大家還是非常關心我們這個詐騙議題包含部長來拜會的時候我也跟你提到現在這種網路上的這個詐騙的問題其實數位部應該是這個責任非常重大我們先看到目前嚴重的狀況當然警政署有上來一個打詐欺標板的數據"},{"start":10277.968,"end":10303.205,"text":"在這個8月份的打詐成效的數據部分財損137億查個不發所得只有查到4億所以它也有各縣市的這個財損的數字可以看到其實查個不發所得跟這個財損真的是不成比例雖然查個不發所得4億但是其實比7月還下降了2億多當然這個財損還增加了27億所以它的詐騙的數字是越來越高那如果從這個打詐數據來看的話"},{"start":10306.465,"end":10328.605,"text":"這個每一個月份光是一個月光是一天啊10月2號那一天我們看剛好整理這條是10月2號那一天10月2號一天的詐騙財損就高達2.44億一天而已就這麼多所以我想這個數字國人都覺得非常震驚這可能這個數字一出來的確讓大家覺得說這個詐騙問題的確非常嚴重那我想這個數位部責任非常非常重大"},{"start":10329.326,"end":10347.045,"text":"我們看到說在看歷年詐騙的財損金額這個數字我也是希望這個打詐國家隊這個行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心也要稍微跟我們說明一下18年的時候只有40億那每年這樣累積上來到2022年到70億那時候打詐國家隊成立到2023年的時候88.78億那是打詐專責辦公室成立那今年到目前為止"},{"start":10353.932,"end":10375.79,"text":"8月就剛提到137億7月110億6月102億所以第一個統計數字到底出了問題因為這都是來自於刑事局這個部分很奇怪以前一年幾十億那結果現在一個月就破百億所以我也不知道說到底今年到了年底統計的時候這個數字會長怎麼樣這個部分部長你清楚嗎"},{"start":10378.57,"end":10392.922,"text":"報告委員那個當然我是520以後才上任前面數字我不是很清楚不過有一件事情我有觀察到今天這個數字因為被詐騙不會說今天被詐騙今天就報案通常可能是半年前一年前開始就被詐騙"},{"start":10393.803,"end":10415.243,"text":"然後累積累積到現在現在是我們大肆宣傳所以有人開始警覺到說我過去的投資或過去交友是不是已經被詐騙才來報案所以這個是有delay的就是說我被詐騙可能是去年的事情但是今天因為政府在強力推動打詐所以大家才警覺到說我是不是已經被詐騙所以數值會增加是因為黑數跑出來"},{"start":10416.044,"end":10442.884,"text":"好部長如果照這個理論那其實那黑數還蠻可怕的以前一年不到100億結果現在一個月就破百億所以就是說我剛剛講就是說這個東西數字怎麼統計可能警政署比較清楚不過我覺得這是如果是報案報案的數目的話就是現在報案的人變多了那就是過去有很多被詐騙可能沒有報案現在就來報案所以這個數字的來源可能警政署可以回答不過我個人是這樣判斷就是說數字增加是好事因為黑數出來後大家可以"},{"start":10443.004,"end":10447.831,"text":"委員部長,部長上庭一下,我們請這個行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的執密,我們黃執密上來一下問一下黃執密"},{"start":10459.623,"end":10478.911,"text":"指名想請教一下像這個警政署、刑事局每年這樣子統計的數字包含現在這個打詐儀表版統計出來的數字呈現出來的每個月現在比如說一百多億每個月這樣一百多、一百多、一百多億那這個數據因為你們是主責單位嘛你們是協調各部會嘛你們會提供背後的這個"},{"start":10480.211,"end":10481.291,"text":"感謝委員這麼深入的了解到這個議題行政院"},{"start":10496.397,"end":10521.398,"text":"打詐指揮中心都會定期召開打詐精進會議會將在165發生端所受理到的案件的發生趨勢做細項的分工並且會著重在高發還有新興的詐騙手法並且會同步將這些訊息會分享給打詐國家隊的相關部會讓大家共同來研擬對策以上說明"},{"start":10521.638,"end":10542.851,"text":"好 殖民謝謝所以你們會去瞭解背後到底被騙的金額背後是什麼成因嗎那我想當然佔比最重的可能還是我們數位部的部分好 部長 殖民謝謝我們繼續詢問部長那部長你明年本來有編列了所謂的打詐經費打擊詐欺經費這體面提到了有73億其中50億要作為網路科技運用精進計畫但是我想"},{"start":10544.972,"end":10553.73,"text":"打詐薪費逐年提升了那你明年又特別編列這個70幾億叫做打詐裡面提供的網路科技運用有50億部長這50億要做什麼事情?"},{"start":10554.531,"end":10557.612,"text":"網路科技運用經濟計畫的50都不全然數位不低就占3億而已那其他的"},{"start":10576.934,"end":10596.144,"text":"市區在什麼地方跟委員報告這個部分是因應通保法的修正那警政署在電信的網路流量記錄的保存就有編例的四五十一這一筆預算那主要是在這個區塊也是剛剛有多位委員特別關心的"},{"start":10596.784,"end":10619.815,"text":"對於一些網路的記錄我們沒有辦法在即時的回溯追查那這一些因為業者他有他實質上的存在必要所以要政府要編列相關的預算來做資料的留存以上補充好 謝謝那接下來一樣打詐的問題既然這個打詐經費有這樣子的編列預算那我們回到今年現在提到說打詐通報網的查詢"},{"start":10620.455,"end":10630.882,"text":"部長剛上來的時候你提到說8月要來上線那後來又發布新聞說這個8月底能夠上線那如果現在上網查詢所謂的這個打詐通報網"},{"start":10632.315,"end":10652.527,"text":"App是有啦這叫網路詐騙通報查詢網部長的確如果Google的話我可以找到App但是網站還沒有上線那現在已經10月都上線了今天上線了嗎9月30號上線網路欸對App有上線啊App有上線我知道"},{"start":10652.867,"end":10666.688,"text":"那個報告委員就是Beta版都已經上線了所以應該是都可以Access對 如果我現在各位也可以自己試用手機如果我現在搜尋這個打詐通報查詢網Google會呈現什麼東西"},{"start":10669.12,"end":10692.788,"text":"這個已經有網頁存在那其實如果委員要的話其實會有可以跟你講那個網址有說一般民眾我現在被騙了我要查詢上線了嗎有有那個網路你只要打那個網路詐騙網路詐騙通報查詢網會找得到真的我現在馬上找喔因為我剛剛質詢前還在找喔"},{"start":10694.262,"end":10710.407,"text":"網路、詐騙、通報查詢網是165啊然後再來是一個新聞,中央社的新聞啊我找不到這個網站捏"},{"start":10712.577,"end":10728.202,"text":"真的各位媒體朋友可以找我看現場大家拿手機大家都手機啊我如果真的是因為我今天我是一般民眾我知道這個消息然後我真的想通報第一個沒關係這個東西你們再找給我第二個我要講的是APP有了這值得肯定但是"},{"start":10729.142,"end":10742.548,"text":"App你怎麼樣我剛剛用了一下部長你可以使用看看這個網路詐騙通報查詢網的App我登錄之後我看到見面裡面我把所有的功能按完了我不知道我要怎麼通報啊我沒辦法通報啊"},{"start":10744.367,"end":10761.252,"text":"報告委員就是我剛才特別強調這個是所謂的Beta版本我們正式上線會在12月但這個是所謂測試版那當然就是這個測試版的目的就是聽聽民眾使用的意見我們會再做進一步的更精進如果我不能通報我就不會有意見啦我不知道我的意見是什麼啊"},{"start":10761.912,"end":10775.929,"text":"所以希望說盡快的第一個網頁你們既然是數位部理論上這是你們的網站你們在優化搜尋引擎的時候應該要比其他單位有更專業的做法才對今天我是個一般民眾"},{"start":10777.765,"end":10803.693,"text":"一般民眾不可能打電話到數位部問部長說請問一下網址多少當然我是委員我可以拿到但是一般民眾拿不到我今天最直觀的我就是上網搜尋那結果沒有我們會加強宣傳另外就是說還特別強調這個是Beta版本Beta版本的目的我們專題通常release會有Alpha、Beta這是Beta那Beta之後才會正式版那Beta的目的就是希望讓民眾實驗會測試之後如果有意見可以提供給數化部數化部會做進一步的精進讓它更好用"},{"start":10804.153,"end":10811.068,"text":"那部長你現在測試跟誰測試啊?對不起我想問一下時間到但是我想了解到底誰能夠測試因為第一個"},{"start":10812.555,"end":10839.952,"text":"這個當然IOS看不到下載次數但Android系統我看到下載達1000左右這是第一個它的APP下載次數不高所以第一我想了解你們也要去了解到底誰在測試那第二個一般民眾我今天如果就像你提到了我光一天可以騙這麼多億被騙的這些民眾看到這個新聞他上網搜尋知道說數位不要推打詐通報網結果我上網搜尋第一個我可能真的找不到網站那你們也提到說這次被他白那既然現在被騙的人他找不到網站"},{"start":10840.552,"end":10844.334,"text":"現在是有2000多個下載不過那個那個報告委員就說其實這個名稱叫做網路詐騙通報查詢法不是叫打就是說我們只負責網路的詐騙所以叫做網路詐騙通報查詢法"},{"start":10856.561,"end":10857.182,"text":"我實驗差不多部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10882.92,"end":10909.536,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員剛剛那個到底連到沒有啊 要輸入什麼打詐不行 一定要是網路詐騙的那麼嚴肅喔你那個隨便關鍵字 你們要設定啊對嘛 你們有 別人是不是預算 你們還排在很後面這是不對的齁待會來跟委員說明一下好 謝謝黃委員好 接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":10913.78,"end":10914.821,"text":"打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書黃執行秘書"},{"start":10943.301,"end":10955.554,"text":"今天還是就打詐的這個議題來就教於我們幾個相關的行政部門部長那個數位簽章法通過之後"},{"start":10956.735,"end":10976.046,"text":"在9月15號已經公告我們還有多少在上個會期已經通過我們除了9月15號已經公告這個一定規模之網路廣告平台計算基準之外我們要把電子簽章法落實到打詐上面"},{"start":10976.98,"end":11004.7,"text":"你覺得還要多久的時間?還有幾個執法還沒有通過?有6個執法那12月30號都會公布現在正在預告當中12月31號最慢12月30號就今年年底啦因為公告預告就到10月21號了所以所以一定可以達成這些通過那過了這些執法之後接下來我們對於這些平台業者"},{"start":11006.192,"end":11030.104,"text":"我們的要求就依照電子簽章我們所公布的母法執法來實施落實對不對對就是他要用這個技術來做實名制的確認好那這個通過之後到我們在實際市場上把民眾可以接觸到這些網路平台到到他我們可以用公權力來要求必須要電子簽章實名認證這個時間還要多久"},{"start":11034.379,"end":11061.454,"text":"執法公佈就是打詐專法的執法一公佈就開始實施等下執法一公佈之後我舉個例子齁如果我啊你一公佈執法之後我開始要申請因為我可能會下廣告在在Google啊在跟Meta的這個FB啊我會下廣告嘛下譬如說蔡其昌的政治宣傳假設那我下這個政治宣傳我要申請電子簽章嘛"},{"start":11062.438,"end":11066.192,"text":"我要去找一家公司申請電子簽章 對不對程序上是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11068.527,"end":11094.859,"text":"還有其他的管道跟方法包括OTP包括那個行動的那個對對對但是都要我們去申請我們辦公室去申請不然我要下廣告的人我要讓他Meta公司可能就要檢查我是不是本人嘛對不對阿這個你們都準備好了嘛就是說你們公佈完1月1號開始我就可以直接找上述的這些管道去申請"},{"start":11096.516,"end":11114.126,"text":"認證我就是蔡奇昌本人我們當然就會跟業者溝通就是說他們因為假設說是1月1號開始要實施他事先就要公告就是說1月1號開始他的廣告組就要先辦好這些程序才能登報所以你們在公告之前就會讓大家開始申請是嗎對當然"},{"start":11115.885,"end":11144.466,"text":"部長你現在懂我意思嗎?這個要先講清楚喔不要到時候1月1號到了我們又在交通委員會罵你們說你不是說1月1號開始就可以做了嗎?所以我的意思只是把程序把它問清楚應該是如此沒錯確定啦齁?好部長我看了一下齁剛剛那個黃建豪委員有問到那個網路詐騙通報查詢網我們辦公室有幾個助理很認真在檢舉"},{"start":11146.511,"end":11147.791,"text":"我發現一個很驚人的事實除非你們的資料有誤這個"},{"start":11177.816,"end":11187.442,"text":"從9月5號到10月4號也就是我們從9月4號往前推30天竟然99.94%的詐騙通通是在Meta系統部長這個有沒有誤?"},{"start":11193.952,"end":11212.986,"text":"這個跟我們的一般的了解差不多就剛剛講的這個詐騙的那個太陽很多是從這個平台進來的對我看了一下我覺得這一家公司就等於台灣詐騙的平台的溫床嘛換言之解決這家公司我們可以解決到99.9%的詐騙案子"},{"start":11217.838,"end":11228.568,"text":"是源頭啦,因為這個是源頭,當然他會比如說會幫你導入一些私人的當然啦,就是只要阻斷了他就沒有後面嘛,因為是源頭嘛"},{"start":11232.234,"end":11254.759,"text":"目前是這樣,不過詐騙集團也會變化沒關係沒關係,我現在不管他未來有什麼研發創新這個以後再說我只是說就現有30天統計資料裡面竟然一家公司Meta可以南瓜的99.9%幾乎源頭都來自於他部長這個恐怕不是喝咖啡的問題"},{"start":11257.444,"end":11280.102,"text":"老是找Meta來喝咖啡我們作為中華民國政府我們有公權力如果說這個來源是善我們很多的平台業者都要一一找來溝通那當然這個很複雜啦那看起來只有一家捏只有一家公司就佔99.94%通通發生在這一家公司"},{"start":11285.762,"end":11309.154,"text":"部長有沒有更強硬的方法譬如說這個乾脆可不可以視為這個他就是同夥啦就都是在你公司發生的嘛不然就是說那個詐騙我們民眾辛苦一輩子賺的血汗錢被騙走了這種公司要不要一併負責不然至少也幫忙賠個50%嘛部長有沒有什麼其他更積極的手法"},{"start":11314.909,"end":11342.801,"text":"不然在你電子簽章法實施之前啊我看這個統計數據啊那個紙密我看統計數據那個詐騙數沒有下來嘛還在持續增加嘛對不對那個我們接獲的報案數還在持續增加嘛所以可不可以採取一些其他的手段我對Meta公司我對他我跟他無仇無恨啊我只是對詐騙深惡痛絕所以呢我希望"},{"start":11343.936,"end":11358.321,"text":"我們可不可以有一些更積極的手段可以讓這些受害的人覺得我們政府有更好的方法、雷厲風險的手段可以來阻止在電子槍斑法實施之前的這些詐騙"},{"start":11360.587,"end":11386.065,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛委員講的沒錯在我們這一切依法形式在法打詐專法通過之前我們只能用道德勸說跟剛剛講的喝咖啡手段但是打詐專法通過之後我相信那個罰款是夠的因為他可以罰到1億元所以那個應該有嚇阻的效果不過剛剛委員講到就是說可能法還可以立得更進一步就是剛剛委員講的就是如果這個"},{"start":11387.406,"end":11413.318,"text":"因為這個某種平台的損失,是不是平台上也要負一些責任,這個可以考慮嗎?好,部長因為你都這樣,你就是一表人才,斯斯文文的,我都怕你火力不足,我看那個執密感覺比較強悍一點,是不是參考一下執密看有沒有什麼其他的方法,這九十九點夠,這是太離譜了,太離譜了,對不對?我看到這事我嚇一跳啊!"},{"start":11415.138,"end":11417.036,"text":"指名有沒有什麼方法給諸位建議一下"},{"start":11418.554,"end":11447.461,"text":"詐欺危害防制條例裡面就有律定了很嚴格的一個處罰的手段那第一階段是讓業者要落地然後接下來是要能夠在源頭做自主管理那如果都沒有的話因為目前以臉書的現況來講我們了解到說只要是在還沒有預告以前目前接獲到民眾通報的都有在24小時內他就有下架了那未來我們會做溯源的追查"},{"start":11448.583,"end":11450.55,"text":"好啦繼續加油啦因為這個我想"},{"start":11452.065,"end":11477.547,"text":"每一個委員都非常關心這個是朝野的公事沒有什麼妥協的空間所以部長你要加油那另外我想我們在打詐這麼長的時間我們這麼積極的一些就是我們有一些作為、宣導這個也會有後遺症部長你也知道嘛也會有後遺症比如說我舉一個例子我有一個朋友他問我"},{"start":11479.073,"end":11505.444,"text":"他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話打給他說你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的你現在齁把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號我的朋友沒有理他如果是執密跟部長你們會去按照電話指示去匯款嗎你們兩個會嗎報告委員我連電話都不接你連電話都不接非常好來"},{"start":11508.121,"end":11535.996,"text":"跟委員報告如果說有接獲到異常的賬戶賄賂的話應該要先報案那確認這一筆錢的來源然後避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人我覺得你們兩個也是回答得不錯啦就是這個很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中形態當中一個很清楚的樣態啦好那這個現實我說這個叫後遺症是什麼我這個朋友啊"},{"start":11536.576,"end":11554.869,"text":"他就是因為接到一個銀行員的電話告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去我朋友聽到他就直接把他掛了他認為這個就是詐騙我覺得我們的教育很成功但是不久之後他就接到那個法院的傳票說人家告他侵佔"},{"start":11557.332,"end":11582.114,"text":"道青站因為那個真的是匯錯款匯錯款那一個人他匯錯款他跟銀行說我要追討回來銀行幫你通知要嘛通知不到要嘛就是接到電話那個我朋友就直接把他掛掉那所以匯錯款的人他的錢拿不回來啊他就跟銀行說你可不可以給我他的資料我自己去找他要說他匯錯款銀行說不行這個資法不可以給他"},{"start":11583.206,"end":11602.993,"text":"所以會錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢怎麼辦他就跑到警察局去告他還不告民事喔他直接告他侵他侵占直接告侵占阿所以呢告完侵占之後我朋友在家裡做什麼都沒幹什麼事都沒做就忽然說他要出庭"},{"start":11605.993,"end":11633.784,"text":"我們宣導詐騙的後遺症這個我在總質詢也提出來那個金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議這個影響有多大老民就不講了第一個錢匯錯的那一個人要不回來趕著要急著要拿一筆錢拿不回來被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍再來我們的警察機關要接受報案再來我們的檢察署"},{"start":11635.149,"end":11645.667,"text":"這個今天那個師長又來嘛對不對我看了一下你們的資料那個叫做假侵佔最後都沒有是那個假侵佔我會逼你喔20%"},{"start":11647.717,"end":11666.215,"text":"你看看一個案子這個都是我們要我很支持要打詐宣導反詐騙的那個後遺症所以這個要來解決不要讓民眾躺著也中槍警察負擔增加檢察官負擔也增加"},{"start":11667.984,"end":11683.27,"text":"所以這個法務部跟相關的部會我們一起來把這個事情做一個處理啦好不好經管會已經主導要來處理這個事情因為時間的關係啦今天就先問就跟大家問到這裡謝謝好好謝謝蔡常委員謝謝部長我們接下來請魯明哲委員"},{"start":11701.741,"end":11711.75,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先有請NCC翁伯中先生來列席下好 我們請NCC翁伯中委員列席"},{"start":11718.928,"end":11732.501,"text":"這個翁先生啊這個為什麼呢因為你今天不管是在院會在交通委員會啊在整個列席備詢的一個身份啊其實這個受到很多的一個關心啊"},{"start":11733.602,"end":11761.594,"text":"為什麼呢所以今天對我來說你目前的身份最多是翁前主委前主委這前主委的任期到7月31號截止但你前仗未清什麼後面借款又來了後面提了四個名單本來是前朝提的照現在已經復委了嘛到委員會就表示我們卓院長也認同這個名單也就是說你前仗未清後面又來了也就一次啊"},{"start":11762.094,"end":11784.046,"text":"要挑戰立法院通過的我們NCC組織法準備要去挑戰嘛不能延任你也延了後面不能連任第三次你也送進來了嘛這前後啊坦白講如果是打臉我魯明哲就算了打臉藍牌就算了但是NCC你們的法規是立法院通過的"},{"start":11785.186,"end":11809.902,"text":"這是整個立法院通過的是這個立法院這個機構所以我覺得第一個是立法院到底尊不尊重這是一個問題第二個 我的擔心就是你現在要做這個代理主委你到底適不適合你覺得你適不適合"},{"start":11813.735,"end":11823.083,"text":"報告委員我是按照組織法第4條那個行政院提名但是我也尊重那個立法院的審查權好"},{"start":11824.827,"end":11854.467,"text":"我真的覺得你很不適合啦一方面喔你前仗後仗真的不清不楚你很尷尬我覺得你是從基層出生的你不是什麼這個教授政治人物轉過來的我覺得齁這個晚節要保你一路來你專業取勝的你過去也很低調嘛那你現在被放在這個位置我個人真的覺得很尷尬對我來講你是前委員齁我覺得你不適合兩點的理由啦第一個是我看到你過去在"},{"start":11855.808,"end":11861.252,"text":"後面我來了解了基層公務人員出身這是好事長官的命令使命必達我專業取向那這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":11883.578,"end":11898.748,"text":"那這種你要接這個主委你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立要公正不能有政黨色彩的一個機構你認為是不是不管你是不是代理主委啦你認為這個機構是怎麼樣是不是應該這個終止"},{"start":11902.33,"end":11929.082,"text":"報言我們應該獨立公正那有關於那個不同意見書或協同意見書我有寫過我有寫就是對於因為我的專長是在電信所以說電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓我都有寫協同意見書所以電視沒有啦電信有對是因為我的專長是在電信那頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併好我知道我知道"},{"start":11929.702,"end":11942.592,"text":"那我們最最最民眾關心爭議的部分那你還是遵照這個陳耀祥的一個指令嘛投下那一票所以我覺得你這個真的不太適合耶到底我們獨立公正吵了這麼久"},{"start":11943.939,"end":11969.841,"text":"那現在你來接到底是要銷規朝隨繼續延續我們陳主委陳前主委的政策我是受不了第二個我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構媒體訪問你你說你這個代理主委你到底怎麼看有什麼委員有意見你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚豔然後到驚嚇你說"},{"start":11972.063,"end":11998.485,"text":"我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長配合行政院你什麼叫獨立的機構你知道嗎什麼叫獨立的機構你獨立的機構你獨立思考你這個機構面臨行政院有錯的時候你要站出來去挑戰他總統有問題的時候你要堅定你的獨立公正的立場不受任何黨派來去來去這個管制可是我告訴你你會想我的信念就這樣我會說"},{"start":12000.106,"end":12024.811,"text":"不可能啊為什麼因為你的命懸一線要你幹不要你幹這個線過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合一之下現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上你要告訴我我就配合行政院其實是總統的一個指令配合府院嘛哇好感人喔配合府院你以後我只有這個"},{"start":12025.811,"end":12048.337,"text":"做代理主委配合他以後所有NCG各項的需要獨立的我都不會配合他你騙誰啊你騙誰啊你現在我坦白講他把你剪掉再見了所以我是覺得在這種情況之下我希望你要知所進退啦因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦那請回座接下來我們請這個"},{"start":12052.68,"end":12075.912,"text":"數位部 黃部長好 我們請黃部長警政署李副處長還有我們打詐中心的黃執銘也請黃那後面就稍微問快一點這個因為打詐我們上上一任也是在交通委員會還有很多的委員會大家打詐已經講了過去至少我聽到在立法院已經四年到第五年了"},{"start":12076.894,"end":12098.693,"text":"那我覺得我們小英總統到現在的我們賴總統都不斷的宣示不斷的透過組織版本也不斷的更新打詐1.0、1.5、2.0不斷的推陳出新我必須要說我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的打詐的那半天就是每一次打詐的專案報告"},{"start":12099.634,"end":12113.271,"text":"看到你們報告四評八穩歌功頌德不斷的改善讓我真的含淚但是一回去回到我們人間的時候發覺不是那麼回事耶越打越詐"},{"start":12115.661,"end":12131.047,"text":"110年到112年你們看這個數字嘛一年大概2萬多到3萬多的數字成長率不斷的增加就是到112年嘛因為你們今年可能有改變啊可能沒講清楚嘛但是一年2萬多3萬的一個件數啊"},{"start":12136.505,"end":12160.167,"text":"剛剛黃俊浩委員也說我們過去然後財損從110年到112年3年的產損大概51到88.751到81這是警政署在這邊你們的刑事局提供的一個數字截至我們去年在問的時候今年上半會議在問的時候還是88.7那就請教一下"},{"start":12161.724,"end":12179.16,"text":"前三年加起來218億前三年我們國人被詐騙的財損218億三年加起來結果呢我們今年右邊是我們一到八月這個被詐欺的概況我們現在七到八月總共加起來248億"},{"start":12182.343,"end":12200.635,"text":"這兩個月很輕鬆的很輕鬆的超越了過去三年218億那我們警隊主先說一下好不好這數字是你們的那就要請問一下我想這個副局長你先說因為你是關鍵證人怎麼說呢因為從今年1月的時候你就在"},{"start":12201.98,"end":12203.902,"text":"一到六月平均每個月8.7的財損怎麼會變到七月、八月"},{"start":12223.311,"end":12247.983,"text":"8.7億喔下一個月是100多億這個變化的巧妙在哪裡?跟你說一下是跟委員報告謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題喔那個一到六月這個統計的基準跟去年前年的基準都是一樣我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的這都是民眾包圍以後到後端的偵查的結果以後再去做呈報可是因為我們因為今年要推出這個打詐儀錶板要第一時間"},{"start":12249.043,"end":12270.058,"text":"讓民眾知道我們那個受理的狀況所以我們把這個統計的期程改變了就是只要民眾一來警察機關報案不管他報的是不是糾紛是不是還有需要查證我們一蓋就收納所以所有的金額我們都一蓋把它放進來所以才會有大幅增長的經濟部長你也辛苦了"},{"start":12271.806,"end":12290.928,"text":"但是我覺得有點鬼扯當然第一個至少打臉的剛剛黃部長沒有啦是因為去年有些人沒報案啦一聽到我們有打詐司法過了很激動的搶來報案不是這樣嘛是因為過去你是從哪裡是收案來統計數字還是由司法判決你說你跟他講的完全不一樣"},{"start":12291.869,"end":12320.465,"text":"那再來為什麼說這個有點有點鬼扯啊為什麼呢因為我過去一整年按理說你110年的數字會不斷的變動隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長111年也不斷的成長可是我告訴你你這個數字啊從我們去年報到今年數字都沒有變你是講說今天列管的我們法務部什麼事都沒有做整整的一兩年一個案都沒有結我告訴你"},{"start":12321.618,"end":12342.869,"text":"我是覺得齁我們要解決詐騙喔第一個政府的數字不要再詐騙了現在所有的你們所有的報告裡面你們有很多美化的文字齁或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間或者有一些報喜不報憂的那沒有辦法你們要這樣寫可是問題是數字台灣數字詐欺這個數字我們能看嗎我只覺得"},{"start":12350.447,"end":12374.885,"text":"這個有很政治性欸很政治性啊在我的看法哇塞哇賴清德總統一上任真的完全不注重詐騙才上任還沒占五二零上任之後七月增加十倍過去八點七變成一百一十億財損哎呦賴政府不行啊感覺是你們是在打臉新潮嗎還是"},{"start":12377.455,"end":12391.034,"text":"還是在打臉救的沒有我們現在是公開透明一清二楚是過去有一個人一直藏一直藏藏不住我們才拿出來到底哪個啊你們回去真的好好去想想最後最後我要拜託黃部長"},{"start":12395.646,"end":12417.525,"text":"好 拜託你齁因為我們也發覺不光是打詐事法在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐不管希望他受到的我們就是不管是偵辦的快速甚至後面的一個後果不斷的增加但是我們看到112年最新的一樣警政署的統計表"},{"start":12419.767,"end":12446.585,"text":"這個我不覺得不有趣啊 一點都不有趣我覺得很擔心嫌疑犯的部分比110年相對來講0到17歲112年比110年喔 你們的表格 唉呦增加了31.53 那個三分 超過差不多三分之一啊就說 我不太理解 是不是因為我們的 可能犯罪的成本越來越高"},{"start":12447.225,"end":12472.583,"text":"我們乾脆找一些18歲以下的年輕人去弄是不是這樣然後我也看到警政署也做了很多的校園去宣導他到底有沒有效果你們每一年都做蠻多的會不會你要宣導的人他早就翹課了他早就是失聯的學生了你再怎麼宣導他也不會來我不知道什麼原因但是如果這個數據是正確的我覺得這個黃部長你有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":12473.635,"end":12489.297,"text":"對於降德的如果嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢把我們7月通過的打詐釋法對於成人的犯抓到會更嚴跑不掉會不會這個趨勢更增加然後要怎麼辦你有什麼想法"},{"start":12492.742,"end":12508.774,"text":"報告委員這個青少年增基增這個我覺得這個基本上一個就是我們在在教育上真的要好好的加強因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情那當然現在因為這個將來是希望從源頭就斷了就是說希望"},{"start":12511.556,"end":12528.517,"text":"不管怎樣讓剛剛講就從這個網路的因為年輕人很多會利用網路希望說在網路上能夠多一些宣傳多一些這個不管是嚇阻的效果讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺將來還是要還是一個可能還是會受嚴重的"},{"start":12528.837,"end":12546.435,"text":"好 回去再想一想齁因為這個連教育部都有關係想一想 想一想可能是忠作孫但不行喔搞不好不是他們喔他們到底在哪裡到底發生什麼事或者為什麼零到十七歲會增加你們去想想要怎麼樣去防制新的"},{"start":12547.116,"end":12547.957,"text":"目前是馬事源指揮官"},{"start":12571.171,"end":12593.786,"text":"好,那你回去跟他講一下好不好應該是對症下藥不要每一年的每一天費用甚至相關的防治費用都投在相同的一個地方要分散這是我個人的建議謝謝好,謝謝倫敏哲委員謝謝所有被選的官員好,接下來我們請邱若驊委員"},{"start":12613.083,"end":12617.009,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請翁代理主委翁代理主委好"},{"start":12625.951,"end":12639.626,"text":"主委,詐騙案件還是不斷發生,詐騙集團可以說是無孔不入,利用臉書、LINE、電話、簡訊等工具進行詐騙,導致我們國人民眾損失慘重,那詐騙原來成為國人的惡夢還有陰影。根據法務部資料統計,臺灣的電信詐騙,電信詐騙從108年的3萬4千多件,"},{"start":12648.675,"end":12665.472,"text":"一百一十二年直接暴增到二十二萬九千多件答福這個增幅達到了百分之五百五十七點三十一百分之五百五十七點三十一那今年一到八月那個案件數也來到了十一萬五千多件那代理主委您說您的專長是電信嗎"},{"start":12667.915,"end":12691.276,"text":"那就叫您幾個問題就本期了解去年2月桃園地檢署查獲了不肖的第二類電信業者與詐騙集團合作共發出1193萬封詐騙簡訊甚至還跟中華電信合作的第二類業者將民眾的個資外洩給詐騙集團由此我們可以知道第二類電信業者已經成為了電信詐騙主要的破口之一"},{"start":12691.776,"end":12718.527,"text":"那面對問題,NCC在今年4月發布電信事業用戶號碼使用的管理辦法那第二類電信業者的監管推給合作的第一類電信業者隨後在6月發布的電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制之一一樣規定合作第一類業者監管第二類電信業者那主委這樣子要求第一類電信業者來管理第二類電信業者請問翁代主委這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":12719.827,"end":12743.542,"text":"報告委員我先講一下因為我們對MVMO我們在那個113年4月26號的電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法已經有要求你要做這種用戶號碼批發轉售的要來登記不是就是直接我們會針對那個MVMO不是經過透過MMO去管MVMO"},{"start":12744.824,"end":12768.323,"text":"第一類電信業者沒有公權力的情況下你認為第二類業者他們會來配合嗎跟委員報告那個MVMO現在是他已經要來登記了假使來登現在要經營MVMO的就是號碼批發傳售的他一定要來登記我們區間裡就直接去管他不會再透過不會透過那個MMO"},{"start":12769.802,"end":12790.494,"text":"那黃建豪委員還有鍾嘉斌委員他們都有分別針對第二類電信業者納管部分提出電信管理修正草案那主委您看過嗎我有看過那您認同嗎我支持現在這一種用我們現在用這種MVMO就是透過那個電信號碼是使用管理辦法來管理MVMO"},{"start":12791.374,"end":12808.98,"text":"法制上面更精進就是提就是像宗嘉斌委員他們的提案就是把那個第二類電信再做列管再做列管那本席認為第二類業者應該由主管機關來監管對沒有錯他來登記成為電信事業就是要管"},{"start":12810.816,"end":12812.197,"text":"主席有請我們速發部防部長"},{"start":12841.336,"end":12856.354,"text":"副院長好部長好就本席了解我們第三方支付虛擬貨幣已經成為詐騙集團的洗錢工具之一那第三方支付在國內最早可追溯到107年那110年的時候第三方支付就已經當年就有檢察官基層的檢察官要求說"},{"start":12857.575,"end":12878.763,"text":"希望我們相關的主管機關將第三方支付列為特許行業那之後訴發部在111年8月27號掛牌而第三方支付的主管機關就是訴發部那當年詐騙案件數已經突破了16萬件很可惜當時訴發部認為自己的業務只在於推動數位發展那不負責監管的習維最後造成詐騙橫行"},{"start":12880.143,"end":12880.943,"text":"數位經濟是我們納管的一個產業"},{"start":12905.869,"end":12929.611,"text":"希望接下來事務發布也會嚴格來執行我們會再監管他們那個尤其是剛剛講這個能量登錄就是說第三方支付他要提供這個服務必須通過我們的能量登錄包括資產檢核他通過才能夠提供這個服務那我們這個也跟金管會合作就是說他要申請到虛擬帳號必須要經過我們能量登錄才能夠去申請所以這方面的管理現在都在進行中"},{"start":12931.012,"end":12957.587,"text":"有很多委員都提到一夜市廣告那個偽冒名人的詐騙廣告在各大的網路平台都可以看到那近期這些詐騙集團也越來越囂張把他們的觸手都伸到了職棒圈用假帳號抹黑球員還有以利他們來詐騙那導致球團發出聲明要求球員近期不要跟球迷合照那速發部終於在10月10號的時候也推出了網路的詐騙APP通報那速發部強調如果公眾人物遭到"},{"start":12958.727,"end":12975.249,"text":"詐騙集團微報可以回報速發部那速發部會要求Facebook還有Line、Google、IG等社群平台要求這些這些廣告來下架那本席覺得速發部推出的APP應該是可以有效的來打擊詐騙只是太慢了"},{"start":12975.729,"end":13003.007,"text":"那非要問題那麼嚴重才提出解決的方案那在這邊本席也要跟部長分享一個小故事那去年的時候我的助理就向我們訴發部來提出就反映就是有一頁式的詐騙網站那當時訴發部的回應是要他去找警政署向警政署來反映真的非常的無言那本席希望訴發部接下來對執行防詐的相關政策可以積極來面對可以承諾本席嗎"},{"start":13003.827,"end":13026.634,"text":"那個報告委員沒錯我們現在就是剛剛講就是說有4個業者是為經濟的業者是我們積極在處理的一個就是剛剛講第三彎致富再來就是網路廣告平台商那這些廣告剛剛講假名的廣告通常是經過網路平台廣告平台商來做這個發布那在這裡面當然這裡面一個大宗就是Facebook"},{"start":13027.014,"end":13041.49,"text":"那所以我們有跟Facebook現在就是在做這方面的合作就是希望他能夠我們會有用我們的AI系統去掃描比如說Facebook的所有的網頁看到有詐騙的那個那個像這種假名的廣告我們會要求他下架"},{"start":13042.091,"end":13055.909,"text":"那目前我們看到這個效果當然就是詐騙這個最後當然希望是打詐的專法裡面通過之後我們可以用KYC就是使命制來杜絕這個問題但在這個之前我們現在是利用這種通報機制"},{"start":13057.731,"end":13083.257,"text":"看到以後就要求要下架目前大概到目前為止從8月23號到現在利用這樣的一個網路這個網路詐騙的通報系統我們他們已經下架大概5萬多筆的這個詐騙廣告所以是有效果但是要到最後效果還是要靠法規來要求實名制那才能完全杜絕這樣的一個假名人廣告的謝謝部長說明希望數法部可以再更積極出動一點我們會積極處理好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":13094.329,"end":13102.705,"text":"好 謝謝邱若驊委員找回我的手機好 接下來有請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":13119.035,"end":13132.464,"text":"那麻煩幫我邀請我們的訴發部黃部長那我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心那還有我們警政署的李副署長警政署李副署長"},{"start":13136.673,"end":13164.705,"text":"三位長官我們這個防詐的部分有分很多階段那宣導的部分防詐宣導的部分我想也是我們各個單位非常著力在用心在做的對不對那其實最近我們Netflix上架了一部電影那其實評價非常的好大家都把它當作是一個防詐神片不曉得三位知不知道是哪部電影有沒有看過"},{"start":13167.611,"end":13187.134,"text":"報告委員我．連這件事情都不知道?我沒有時間看這個那這個可能跟我們業務有一點關係啦因為這個畢竟它跟防詐它當然是一部電影但是有些人說它是一個防詐宣導片因為它是對岸拍的那可能有些人會說欸這個可能有一個大外宣的一個成分在但"},{"start":13188.195,"end":13214.2,"text":"無論如何這部影片在我們年輕世代有在用網路串流媒體看影音的人許多人都看過這部電影那普遍也都認為這部電影對於防詐的一個宣導不論是被騙去國外當詐騙集團或者是說是當受害者的角度那都有很多深刻的一些描述那當然我認為唯一的"},{"start":13215.356,"end":13240.987,"text":"可能唯一的阻礙就是因為他是對岸派的所以說我覺得三位可以去看一下然後想一下因為其實大家評價都非常好我們可以試著多多宣傳一下那在這部電影中也有幾個面向我也想做一些討論那許多我們的詐騙雖然說都是可能防止財務被詐騙但是也有許多的民眾被詐騙之後"},{"start":13242.731,"end":13260.878,"text":"自殺是有很多這樣的情形所以我想請問一下我們的警政署警政署請問我們有沒有針對被詐騙人之後自殺而死亡的人數統計目前沒有這個資料有沒有辦法做出來這應該要有家屬來報案目前我們自殺應該都自殺的資料不會到警政署來嗎"},{"start":13269.881,"end":13270.622,"text":"主管會在哪邊會有這樣的資料?"},{"start":13281.732,"end":13285.793,"text":"我希望這些資料我們在無論是我們任何的一個防詐的一個單位"},{"start":13303.663,"end":13328.588,"text":"提供這個資訊出來讓我們的同仁知道我們在守護的不只是民眾的財產我們在守護的也會是民眾的生命有許多的生命就是因為被詐騙而選擇自己親身離開了好不好這部分可不可以就麻煩我們的警政署來跟我們的衛福部或者是看是哪個單位有這個資料然後跨機關通報就像我們的交通嘛交通每個月都會有這個A1人數的統計相信的詐騙一樣這個數字出來會讓大家更有警覺心"},{"start":13333.769,"end":13355.498,"text":"那另外這個過去有一段時間我們在機場都有做宣導那就是避免我們的國民想說去賺高薪的機會去國外然後反而被囚禁在國外當詐騙集團的一個禁錄那這部分我想確認一下我們金融組統計到目前為止我們有多少的國人目前還有這樣的狀況嗎?這樣的或者是說這樣的狀況有沒有趨緩?"},{"start":13363.922,"end":13387.978,"text":"一般來講我們被騙到國外去詐騙然後是其他的犯罪行為那基本上我們都是民眾報案了以後我們才有這個資料那如果說以我們現在掌握到的這個資料有受理這方面報案的有868件已經返國的有612人其他的還沒有回來"},{"start":13388.999,"end":13407.903,"text":"好所以目前大概依照我們現有統計資訊大概還有多大概200名左右的國人可能在國外是被強制限制人身有的人是被強制了有些可能是主動的可能都有在國外進行詐騙因為受理了以後報給這個"},{"start":13411.184,"end":13432.059,"text":"立即來偵辦那偵辦現在就是說有不管是他是被詐騙或是說去外面犯罪我們就是這個民眾報案以後我們就報給地檢署去指揮我們現在有跟任何一個國家有簽訂這個境外警方在境外執法打擊詐騙的相關簽約嗎?"},{"start":13435.27,"end":13450.702,"text":"我們是陸續有私底下跟各國有這樣的一個協定但是因為我們自己有16個駐外的駐點如果這方面的訊息除了是透過外交部我們自己的駐點會了解"},{"start":13451.483,"end":13452.124,"text":"黃部長留步,兩位先回座一下"},{"start":13466.328,"end":13486.476,"text":"部長我們最近前幾天上架了一個APP啦對不對APP的名稱我忘記我看一下你有下載嗎有網路通報詐騙網站通報查詢網嘛你有沒有下載你有沒有用過我自己有試用這個就是我試用的是Alpha版本那最近9月30要上架是Beta有沒有發現什麼問題"},{"start":13488.915,"end":13517.211,"text":"我知道你適用有沒有發現什麼問題我們適用啊就說當然我已經開始接到一些就講所謂Beta的意思就是說讓民間這個測試版我跟你講這個你們花多少錢啊預算幾千萬是那個我們這個計畫是看起來蠻簡單的一個APP啦也不用太難啦應該還好吧應該沒有多少錢吧因為他還有後面的那種接受通報這種這個那個客服的沒關係這個預算大概多少APP的開發預算"},{"start":13519.13,"end":13542.535,"text":"一千三百萬一千三百萬喔好啦如果連後勤什麼的那個沒關係啦這個跟其他部位比還是沒有很多啦但是這個介面還蠻簡單的啦那我就同仁我辦公室同仁就下載測試一下因為它也才四個主要頁面啦那在四個主要頁面裡面統計的這一個部分啦如果你有下載可以看一下我們統計部分有一個打詐樣派啦這個是下拉式的表單連點都點不出來"},{"start":13545.075,"end":13545.956,"text":"統計頁面打在讓他也點不出來嗎?"},{"start":13572.755,"end":13574.276,"text":"那這個想確認一下,因為這個通報應該是24小時,不分假日,所以我們確認一下這個都是24小時運作嗎?"},{"start":13592.912,"end":13611.006,"text":"對這是24小時就24小時接受通報那因為我們有些東西會通報金管會或其他單位那這些單位有辦法在假日做查證嗎我們有要求但是就是說現在還是在在運作在協調中所以目前比如說金管會金管會今天也有來嘛是不是金管會來那個邱副主委"},{"start":13619.608,"end":13627.794,"text":"是 如果說我們假日速發部有通報這個疑似詐騙的訊息給我們我們需要多少時間平日啦 平日需要多久 那假日有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":13628.71,"end":13653.67,"text":"根文報告目前我們工作的方式是1到5都有那假日部分還在規劃?謝謝好沒關係有在規劃那就因為剛上線啦好不好不能太苛責那就是詐騙是不分假日不分白天晚上當然人力的部分可能就是可能讓我們的同仁比較辛苦一點或是增聘人力但這個部分就是希望24小時全年無休那這個才有辦法迅速的打擊詐騙"},{"start":13654.631,"end":13657.773,"text":"網路、臉書、LINE這些平台的回應,我們都已經有通常的管道了嗎?對,我們跟他們喝過,人都很熟,通報過後他們都會迅速的回應"},{"start":13676.607,"end":13697.026,"text":"配合度都還好好那因為我們最近有大概瀏覽了一下啦那有些都是說可能確認為詐騙訊息那已通知比如說Facebook移除怎麼樣的那有些要點進去已經移除有些沒有移除但是我想最終的狀態我們可能還是要追蹤一下不是就送給臉書之後就沒事然後如果說我追蹤的話如果說他移除你們也會知道那可能最終訊息要對"},{"start":13698.587,"end":13713.057,"text":"交通顯示下而不是只有告知讓民眾以為只有告知而已好不好那以上那不好意思再給我一點時間我可不可以邀請這個法務部我們國司長好法務部那我們這個黃部長還有我們同仁就謝謝"},{"start":13720.894,"end":13743.773,"text":"委員好市長好不好意思請問一下這個詐欺是公訴罪嘛對不對對非告訴難論非告訴難論是公訴罪嘛那其實詐欺當然有區域詐欺的跟騙人的可能讓你以為我要講的就是網路遊戲啦在最近的時候公平交易委員會已經有訂定法令要求所有機率型的商品都必須要明訂機率嘛對不對"},{"start":13745.749,"end":13762.054,"text":"這件事情公平會已經立法了已經上路了所以比如說大家網路遊戲抽卡抽角色都會告訴你機率那你再去抽但是常常我們沒有辦法去驗證這樣子的一個機率到底是不是正確的那如果說有民眾來報案"},{"start":13763.994,"end":13780.368,"text":"因為機率這種東西講實在就算告訴你99%會中你還是有可能連抽10次都沒中嘛沒有人辦法說因為就是機率嘛還是有機會連續10次都沒中那假設有民眾跟我們報案這種機率型的網路遊戲有很可疑的異常的情況下"},{"start":13781.289,"end":13807.328,"text":"那我們司法單位有沒有辦法偵辦跟委員報告這個個案上如果有報案的話那檢察官就可能會拜託我們司法警察機關啟動偵查的機制來調查調查他是不是隱藏著一個詐欺行為那這個是個案來做判斷個案判斷那你們可能可以去找遊戲公司請他提供內部的可能資訊等等的"},{"start":13807.828,"end":13815.955,"text":"所以我們可以去告訴這些玩家網路遊戲的一些機率型的商品如果說他有標示不實的部分他還是可能涉及詐欺當然他是非告訴奶的當然我們民眾可以去報案"},{"start":13833.749,"end":13847.934,"text":"如果說報案的話我們檢察機關會受理會去調查一下有沒有蓄意詐欺的情形是會好那以上好就謝謝我們司長謝謝召委好謝謝廖謙祥委員好謝謝法務部好接下來有請陳雪生委員發言好謝謝主席謝謝召委是不是請一下書發部黃部長黃部長"},{"start":13871.065,"end":13885.757,"text":"現在打詐主管單位是訴發部嗎?打詐是跨部會的一個合作我們負責網路就是平台就是內政部、通常會、金融管理委員會、法務部各個部會成立的一個聯合小組"},{"start":13895.066,"end":13903.846,"text":"113年7月31日總統公布打造專法成立之前跟成立之後你們有什麼進展嗎?"},{"start":13905.474,"end":13932.91,"text":"打詐通過之後我們就要進行執法的修訂那執法的應該是在今年年底會提出來那執法就是讓我們在打詐上多一些工具啦這個工具比如說要求網路平台上要使名字像這樣的一個工具就可以讓我們可以要求他們要配合我們政府的打詐要進行一些工作包括比如說那個剛講使名字以外包括就如果是詐騙廣告被我們發現他要能夠在24小時之內下架"},{"start":13933.99,"end":13952.702,"text":"這個東西就是會在後面在這個專法通過之後執法通過之後我們開始會落實那10月底啊這個通常會代理主委大概任務結束嘛那新的委員還沒選出來那通常會的打詐工作還在持續嗎?"},{"start":13954.38,"end":13974.395,"text":"通常會的我來問部長通常會的我會問他我們負責是網路詐騙就是剛平台上那電話詐騙跟簡訊詐騙那還是在通常會好好好好那謝謝部長請回我是請主席請一下通常會主委好代理主委封代理主委主委我剛才問的問題"},{"start":13982.386,"end":13996.582,"text":"你的任務在10月30日結束那11月1日開始在新的委員還沒有選出以前,統一選我們還沒行使以前那你們以後的運作打詐的處理怎麼辦?"},{"start":13999.089,"end":14014.898,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們會裡面有一個打詐工作小組是由我們那個主任秘書在負責督導那我們會持續的去做就是有關於現在我們在建立那個165防詐的通報網"},{"start":14015.959,"end":14043.433,"text":"那也在做那個外勞卡的一個跟警政署跟移民署連結的一個通報網另外就是黑媒卡的處理這一部分我們都會持續盡力做因為那個我們黃主任秘書是召集人如果你沒有任務代理主委的話那是誰代理的這我不清楚我就是在這個任內做本分的事做本分的事"},{"start":14044.844,"end":14052.387,"text":"我們的國際的化物從去年到現在本來是5080萬到目前為止只剩下1237萬大概通話率減少了75%是打詐的問題嗎?打詐有成效還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":14061.782,"end":14074.477,"text":"報委這個就是重點因為在112年5月的時候真的每個月平均的國際的電話是5080萬但是到今年8月剩下1200多萬證明這個有75%的電話都是詐騙電話"},{"start":14082.919,"end":14105.247,"text":"75%的電話都是詐騙電話另外我也跟委員再補充加86的電話本來也有1600多萬通每個月到現在每個月只有40幾萬通那個也是其實那個大部分都是詐騙電話因為我們接獲民眾的檢舉齁大部分都是查的結果都是來自國外的電話"},{"start":14106.226,"end":14119.972,"text":"沒有錯那不知情的民眾常常就誤導了就上當了那你們通常會有沒有做一些宣傳的紙本作業有有一些偏遠地區他不見得看電視"},{"start":14122.099,"end":14149.617,"text":"我們不只就是說我們會去到那個各個那個就是社區那個社區中心去宣導這個齁那而且我們的語音警司喔打那個國際電話來還有一個語音警司一通是國際電話要設置不方便對有這樣的訊息好那我知道了王主委你是請回是不是請主席請行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心"},{"start":14150.933,"end":14153.134,"text":"黃執行秘書好不好,謝謝好,黃執行秘委員好黃執行秘現在有打詐新釋法是這裡面有詐欺犯罪危害防制條例刑事訴訟法通訊保障及監察法洗錢防制法是那"},{"start":14179.632,"end":14180.92,"text":"這裡面剛才我問了書發部的部長"},{"start":14183.55,"end":14212.195,"text":"是聯合指揮但是總是要有個執行單位是不是你們在執行?跟委員報告現在在8月27日行政院就將我們原來的打詐辦公室轉型成為了打詐指揮中心所以現在跨部會的協調還有在未來政策的擬定以及在執法的推動方面都是由打詐指揮中心統一來統整"},{"start":14212.935,"end":14241.617,"text":"因為有個頭嘛對不對?各方面的資料各部會的資料要收集來以後是送到你們中心是不是?政策面的推動跟由打詐指揮中心來辦理那技術面的話還是由各部會依照業務分工任務執掌來做出那這樣多頭馬車勒?不會,這個只會做好相關的協調因為事前統一比較重要啊那各部會收集的資料都會到你們打詐中心來是不是?是的會的喔好好好"},{"start":14242.489,"end":14270.6,"text":"那我了解了,是不是請內政部警政署李副署長好,李副署長好,副署長早我這邊要表揚一下我們連江縣的警察局局長是前幾個禮拜有一個選民黨料給我"},{"start":14272.398,"end":14296.426,"text":"他說直接要跟局長見面,局長在百忙之中接見了他接見他以後,就開始佈置,佈置由車手是在台灣已經被詐騙了差不多幾百萬,最後他大概要一兩百萬那麼局長就跟檢舉員講,你請他到馬祖來拿"},{"start":14297.93,"end":14324.03,"text":"後來警察局局長很認真布線在機場就把他逮捕,把車子逮捕而且也承認了像類似的詐騙手法很多但是我們執政的同仁尤其要注意在整個辦案的技巧、技術的執行面這些都非常的重要我特別表揚我們連江縣的警察局局長謝謝委員那麼"},{"start":14327.659,"end":14347.664,"text":"我們那邊也有很多被詐騙的案子,詐騙一億、兩億、三億都有他詐騙的方式就是去新加坡,比如說我是拿督、賭錢中心去賭、包銀的甚至他還找我一塊去穩贏不賠"},{"start":14350.265,"end":14354.136,"text":"我怎麼聽得下去不可能的事情,但是不管怎麼樣還是很多民眾受騙上當"},{"start":14358.536,"end":14386.544,"text":"所以我剛才才跟我們的NCC主委講你弄一些紙本的作業廣發到一些比較偏僻的鄉里給他們偏遠的縣市還是給民眾看他不會當垃圾丟掉一傳十,十傳百對不對我常常每天都有禮物我每天都有禮物請你要記得要去領你的禮物那個電話我連回都不敢回"},{"start":14387.364,"end":14409.162,"text":"我怕回了以後啊,電話會被他騙他騙那個國際電話,我不曉得怎麼騙,我是不知道,我不懂所以像這方面類似的詐騙手法都很多那麼警政署這邊當然嘛,你們警察都在你們手上執行國家的公權力這一點請你們多加油好不好好那謝謝我們副署長,謝謝主席好謝謝陳雪生委員"},{"start":14418.325,"end":14439.694,"text":"好接下來有請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席我們有請警政署理副署長、法務部郭司長警政署這個理副署長法務部"},{"start":14451.659,"end":14480.402,"text":"副署長還有市長午安我想這陣子我們屏東有兩位年輕人他們分別到中國大陸跟緬甸之後失聯這個案子本席曾經透過我們相關的部會去關切瞭解但是都一直沒有掌握到這個人的安全的問題後來國台辦發了一個新聞說其中到中國大陸這位郭姓男子因為涉及參與詐騙集團被依法拘留"},{"start":14480.942,"end":14484.306,"text":"感謝立委我們警政署是看到媒體的報導然後就主動跟這個"},{"start":14502.495,"end":14515.085,"text":"路芳那邊聯繫然後在9月25號他們就傳過來說他可能涉及詐欺案件所以被安徽省公安逮捕"},{"start":14517.574,"end":14538.644,"text":"那我請教一下法務部那個司長那針對我們兩岸的一個司法合作跟人身保障的部分那到底我們有沒有什麼樣一個具體的一個作為跟一個保障國人安全的一個措施跟委員報告依照兩岸共打協議的第12條雙方同意即即使通報對方人員被限制人身自由"},{"start":14539.284,"end":14565.081,"text":"以及非病史、可疑非病史等等以及便利家屬的一個探視那針對這一個剛委員錘訊的那一個這個郭姓楠大學生我們在9月24號就以公函聯繫陸方那陸方在9月25號就如同副署長所講的陸方就已經有回應說這個郭楠已經受到人身自由限制的這一個通報"},{"start":14565.942,"end":14568.365,"text":"現在所謂的一個詐騙的一個廣告層出不窮就像我們在這個螢幕上看到的"},{"start":14585.982,"end":14589.768,"text":"那針對這樣子的一個打詐的一個打擊犯罪的一個作為警察局部分有沒有什麼樣一個強化的一個作為"},{"start":14605.11,"end":14634.11,"text":"目前就是說對於到國外去被騙到國外的這個這個民眾那我們當然就是說民眾來報案以後我們當然就是立案調查立案調查以後就是就是馬上查證來來追查查證偵辦那如果是相關的需要外交部的我們會通報希望民眾填報那個失聯的通報單請求外外交部來協助"},{"start":14635.21,"end":14664.029,"text":"這一點我想本市還是希望我們警政署要更積極的作為那我想結合相關的部會加強一個國內的一個求職的一個警示機制這個不要讓人家那邊還要找人回來都不會有錢有時候根本人都找不回來了這部分是不是警政署能夠有一個強化的一個書面報告給本市好不好好好謝謝那請回請示主席我們再請金管會的邱副主委好金管會邱副主委"},{"start":14674.039,"end":14696.531,"text":"副主委我想我們金融機構在防制詐騙上面當然目前採取很多的一個措施包括所謂的一個靈慧關懷還有一個網路銀行的一個風險控管但是現在被騙都是高齡或是經濟弱勢的一個族群那針對這樣的一個弱勢經濟弱勢的一個族群我們有沒有一個更細緻的一個保護措施"},{"start":14698.003,"end":14715.084,"text":"根本報告有關尤其是高齡或是比較弱勢的族群我們有特別在臨櫃關懷裡面有要求有一定金額的這個匯款或是提領要特別做臨櫃關懷所以這個部分有特別做這個臨櫃關懷上面的要求"},{"start":14716.586,"end":14744.644,"text":"這個這一點還是要請金管會要求我們這我們要比較稽薄的稽問兩句、稽關心一下才會防止有些老人家他不會講實話因為他有時候他就是被騙了這樣這心情就一定都沒有要告訴你實在的這我們都很擔心那針對這樣子一個詐騙集團層出不窮一個更新的手法尤其利用一個虛擬資產進行詐騙那我們現行的監控機制是不是足夠來防範"},{"start":14747.286,"end":14762.715,"text":"有關在這個銀行的各個營業的這個方式都是有要求要做到這個防制詐騙的相關的規管所以在這個事前的部分目前又有一些技術性的這個"},{"start":14764.736,"end":14780.255,"text":"相關的這個制度來事先做偵測在整個交易面尤其是有要求行員要特別注意都有協助客戶那網路的部分在加強身份驗證的部分也做了很多的要求"},{"start":14780.895,"end":14805.411,"text":"對,也許最近網路有價證據這個假廣告實在是嚇死人齁,這都給大家報名白的啦齁,然後講這剛剛我們那個陳雪森委員講的這個只賺不賠的部分齁,非常非常的多但是我們在網路平台上面會看到很多未經核實的一個廣告那針對這部分我們是不是有一個明確的審查機制來防止我們更多的鄉親受害"},{"start":14806.544,"end":14830.659,"text":"根文報告目前網路這個投資詐騙的部分整個在這個投信投顧法修法以後我們都是有要求必須是實名制而且網路平台有負責必須審查的這個責任所以在這樣子的一個法律通過以後我們在執行上面更有法據的基礎目前主動收報的目前為止已經收報5萬多件都有做相關的處理"},{"start":14832.079,"end":14839.585,"text":"那這部分還是我們要積極來處理防止我們更多相應偷害好謝謝那最後我們也請數位部黃部長好黃部長"},{"start":14845.799,"end":14872.077,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了那我想網路詐騙的部分我們也很多積極推出很多的一個防制措施包含我們最近網路詐騙一個通報查詢網的APP還有詐騙犯罪條例防制條例的一個立法加強所謂對國內外一個網路廣告平台的一個監管那針對這樣子的一個查詢系統跟警政署的165的全民"},{"start":14872.917,"end":14896.549,"text":"防騙網的部分我們如何來進行分工跟互補我們這一個165主要是說已經明確是詐騙或是已經被詐騙的時候去報案那我們這個主要是說在不確定尤其是在網路是針對網路訊息不確定的時候可以來查訊我現在看到的訊息是不是一個詐騙訊息所以這是還沒有被騙以前你可以來先查驗很明確的做處理對查證這樣"},{"start":14899.91,"end":14924.257,"text":"對那針對未落地的一個國際網路的廣告平台那如果說他們沒有如期指定一個法律代表政府我們有針對這樣的一個執法措施或是有相關的一個法律的一個標準如果這個在預計是在今年年底我們自發通過之後如果這個沒有配合做招募事他沒有法律代表在台灣的話他是會被罰款就是說他沒辦法做這樣的營業"},{"start":14924.977,"end":14925.477,"text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":14958.998,"end":14961.024,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請黃雁南部長黃部長"},{"start":14968.629,"end":14991.562,"text":"委員好部長好部長詐騙是大家國人深惡痛絕我們對速發部非常高度期待就是因為現在我們看到很多的詐騙為什麼會那麼的猖獗就是他利用網路無遠弗屆的關係或者是說用這個通訊軟體來擴散那我們要的是源頭管理堵絕讓很多的狀況可以好好的嚇阻"},{"start":14992.222,"end":15008.326,"text":"我先提一下有沒有去盤點說現在到底比較常見的詐騙有哪一些樣態類型投資詐騙是最嚴重的然後當然再來就是那些那個假的帳單、繳費的啦假裝公部門的假訊息假訊息都是這個繳費的詐騙"},{"start":15013.487,"end":15014.468,"text":"部長,剛剛我們也提到是說"},{"start":15035.169,"end":15062.307,"text":"那麼多的詐騙其實最根究底就是這幾類那可是國人還問啊就是說為什麼基礎的網路防禦下架到目前為止還沒有辦法做很立即即時或是說現在我們打開真的都還是有而且現在不只是臉書、社群媒體YT、TikTok、IG其實連拍影片他都拍影片告訴你說你可以來做相關的詐騙有沒有看到這樣的狀況"},{"start":15063.408,"end":15086.336,"text":"對那個詐騙管道當然很多那我們剛剛也有一些數據顯示就是源頭裡面很多是跟這個比如說假名人、臉書的詐騙是相關所以剛剛講網路廣告平台上的管理如果這個在打詐裝法通過、執法通過之後我們會要求他進行實名制那用實名制的關係會杜絕這些假"},{"start":15087.676,"end":15116.569,"text":"假的廣告對過去到現在本席一而再再而三就強調就是說你現在很多的粉絲專業我們以臉書為例粉絲專業如果說你剛創立他沒有去加好友他不是一個真的有名的話其實他擴散不出去現在的觸及演算法是很低的所以他就要透過下廣告的方式才能夠短時間接觸到一般的民眾那廣告源頭就可以去管理嗎那現在廣告實名制到底我們能不能要求了"},{"start":15117.209,"end":15135.044,"text":"對 這個是我們的打詐的專法通過之後的這個已經通過了嘛對 那打詐司法就會要求網路廣告平台所以我們現在想要確認的地方是不管是一頁是詐騙不管是這個投資廣告名人假冒名人他即便是假冒洪孟愷假冒任何一個名人"},{"start":15136.42,"end":15152.795,"text":"如果說他沒有去投廣告他也擴散不出去嘛對不對那現在我們能不能跟這個不管是臉書的母公司還是說這個Google能夠已經有確認就廣告實名制了對我們那個已經告訴他們就是說我們打造狀況通過之後已經告訴他們"},{"start":15153.456,"end":15155.036,"text":"臉書、Google、相關社群媒體包括甚至我講是說還有TikTok、IG、YT"},{"start":15176.423,"end":15189.492,"text":"這一些其實也都是管道已經通知了那年底執法通過之後就能夠要求廣告實名制如果說不配合咧一案一罰還是可以累敘可以一案一罰最終可以罰到1億元情節惡劣嚴重就罰到1億元"},{"start":15202.041,"end":15222.569,"text":"罰款只是手段不是目的重點在於是我們要嚇阻不要讓這些平台變成是詐騙的管道跟溫床過去我們講說我們對於訴發部基於厚望認為訴發部在打詐的防範上面角色很關鍵但是過去的訴發部我必須實在話講都是認為說訴發部只是配角的角色"},{"start":15223.129,"end":15237.895,"text":"但是我們在交通委員會我們一直強調速發部不是配角的角色甚至他是源頭管理可以說是主角中的主角跟金管會金流跟這個相關NCC電信的這個管道"},{"start":15238.855,"end":15261.357,"text":"警政署第一線的員警同仁非常辛苦但我們不希望是說所有事情到時候都是壓到第一線同仁員警身上所以速發部能夠勇於承擔我給予肯定但我們更期待後續的一個作為那我另外再提到最近還有另外一個他可能不算詐騙但是遊走黑白之間可是非常嚴重假車牌"},{"start":15262.728,"end":15285.073,"text":"有沒有看到假車牌的廣告訊息我看到這樣的新聞有是那如果說這是一個違禁品假車牌其實某種程度上他是他不算詐騙啦你真的給錢他會做一個車可是我們不允許這樣的狀況嘛就如同我們不允許網路上賣毒品我們不允許網路上賣槍械的這種違禁品或是他就是"},{"start":15286.073,"end":15314.674,"text":"法令明文規定的非法用品那一樣假車牌過去這段時間非常猖獗甚至網路上你只要搜尋關鍵字本席明天會開一個記者會我想也有邀請相關不管是警政單位或是抒發單位來好好討論我們怎麼樣嚇阻因為本席發現這樣的一個狀況非常嚴重甚至你只要在網路上查關鍵字就可以搜尋得到他就叫你加LINE"},{"start":15315.339,"end":15341.552,"text":"然後告訴你說你來製作一比一他上面甚至還寫警語啊警作教學使用嚴禁非法用途你不覺得很諷刺嗎但他做出來的車牌而且價格其實人人負擔得起那如果說我們放任這樣的一個假車牌在車路面上啪啪走我只預期兩個點第一他有恃無恐他可能開比較快因為被拍到不是罰到他"},{"start":15343.1,"end":15366.858,"text":"第二,如果說真的發生了車禍、肇事逃逸他跑走你現場查這個車牌查不到人那是非常嚴重的犯罪問題部長,我想請教假車牌這種違禁品的廣告是不是一併也要跟這些社群平台來去做討論要求他們不能推播甚至這一些訊息都要下架假車牌的那個"},{"start":15369.057,"end":15384.583,"text":"陳副委員講的就要跟我們內管的這幾大平台去溝通另外還有電商這我們也跟所有的電商三大的電商工會請他們告訴他們的會員這個要嚴格控管假設另外我們其實自己也在掃"},{"start":15385.66,"end":15387.561,"text":"本席不要否定你們的努力,但是我們真的還是查得到"},{"start":15407.488,"end":15424.754,"text":"這樣子的狀況就代表是說他確實還有一些漏洞還是會被有心人士去利用所以我也提出來這個問題明天記者會我們還在就教但我更希望的是明天來的時候各單位要提出可以應對的辦法好不好謝謝好謝謝黃孟楷委員好接下來有請李坤城委員發言"},{"start":15444.573,"end":15445.319,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請黃部長"},{"start":15453.2,"end":15456.121,"text":"打詐專法的第29條第一項的規定他們要在10月31號之前以書面指定法律代表那請問一下"},{"start":15483.506,"end":15511.445,"text":"現在是10月初了那這6個平台已經有哪一些業者哪些平台已經完成這個法律代表的登記了我們請副署長這4大公司還有6個平台都有來拜訪我們來討論一些細節所以他們已經充分知道10月31要提拔法律代表不是 這早就應該知道了啦這個不用拜訪也知道了在看新聞就知道了打詐成法的規定就這麼清楚我是說這個有沒有來做登記了"},{"start":15512.677,"end":15513.337,"text":"打詐專法通過多久了啊?"},{"start":15538.599,"end":15540.2,"text":"有哪些業者已經完成廣告實名制的登記了?"},{"start":15567.349,"end":15595.325,"text":"那個廣告實名制是執法通過之後他們才要落實目前也還沒有所以目前沒有任何一個平台他們有去做這個實名制那個目前是沒有嚴格要求雖然他們內部已經開始有些自我管理機制但是配合我們政府的這個執法的實名制目前是年底因為我剛剛有提嘛是年底現在他們也沒有自律就是說這個就是先配合的要先推動實名制沒有"},{"start":15597.19,"end":15619.523,"text":"沒有嚴格要求但是我從我們剛剛講過我們跟世大這個業者都有喝咖啡嘛那事實上他們內部已經有些自律機制就是像有一些像Google啊這些公司他們已經內部有這樣的一個類似機制就是會要求做一些身份驗證對啦那就是說當然等到這個年底的時候才會確定都採實名字就對了才會完全落實對"},{"start":15620.896,"end":15621.496,"text":"那廣告是小時要移除嗎?"},{"start":15640.011,"end":15640.331,"text":"網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":15655.765,"end":15678.728,"text":"我有去下載啦我有去下載我想說看到底效果怎麼樣那這一個現在已經正式是上線了嗎還是測試這是測試版、Beta版還是測試版喔對所以哪時候才會正式使用12月12月會所以這個報告委員這個Beta版的目的就是讓大家測試之後給我們feedback、給我們意見我們會再做精進跟修改"},{"start":15679.168,"end":15692.025,"text":"所以這個是測試版?這是測試版最後版本是哪時候?12月12月的中下旬會12月中下旬那所以上面那些訊息是真的還假的?真的"},{"start":15693.072,"end":15693.212,"text":"最後一點點時間齁"},{"start":15714.024,"end":15725.626,"text":"我看了一下 主要來源以Facebook跟IG為主 然後Google跟Line的數量偏少那TikTok沒有任何通報 這個是原因在哪裡"},{"start":15727.52,"end":15746.134,"text":"大部分的那個所謂投資詐騙廣告目前大部分都是還是經過像臉書假名人啊或者是假這個假沒有啊 Google跟LINE也很多啊Google跟LINE相對的就是很多都是那個詐騙的手法都是先從臉書引導你進入所謂的社群就像LINE"},{"start":15747.315,"end":15763.404,"text":"或是其他的像Google的那個沒關係啦因為現在是測試版啦那這個就是我有發現這個啦那不知道你們有沒有發現啦就是說你們自己去查一下那是因為臉書比較多的關係嗎還是怎麼樣那所以去查一下那這個就是說我也希望說這個"},{"start":15764.464,"end":15765.165,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主委"},{"start":15785.001,"end":15805.075,"text":"好 謝謝李委員那因為現在時間已經快接近一點那我在這裡宣告一下如果有需要去上廁所的就不敬禮不敬禮去休息一下預估今天的會議大約還有一個小時好不好那我們把會議開完了這樣大家下午還可以去辦公接下來我們有請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":15813.054,"end":15827.857,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進有請速發部的黃部長還有NCC的黃部長翁代主委還有警官會的邱副主委還有邱副主委還有警政署的副處長還有李副處長"},{"start":15838.499,"end":15856.268,"text":"先請三位長官上來主要是各位看一個數字我們說明年要編70幾億要打詐結果越打詐騙越多這個去年度一整年從去年到去年6月到今年的5月總共詐騙的金額是102億"},{"start":15862.598,"end":15888.294,"text":"結果今年6月到8月3個月257億是去年整年度的2.5倍這個政府還不是普通的無人喔老百姓最關心的是什麼你隨便做民調現在老百姓最切身之痛的就是詐騙然後為什麼一開始請三個單位上來大家點名"},{"start":15889.909,"end":15890.069,"text":"委員好"},{"start":15918.482,"end":15926.529,"text":"李長官請問你因為你是第一線被詐騙之後大概能夠拿回來多少請問你報告委目前沒有最完美的統計數字有這數字啦怎麼沒有我查過了查貨大概一成啦"},{"start":15938.379,"end":15960.175,"text":"所以在這裡你同意吧?差不多一成嘛對不對?差不多一成啦!就是說假如你被騙了一千萬你大概最多拿回來一百萬左右一百萬左右!多久可以拿到?要經過整個司法的培訓對!那是多久?那是多久?那應該要看個案的平均!"},{"start":15962.318,"end":15989.166,"text":"目前沒有這方面的數據有啦!我都查過了!你又沒!什麼都沒!你今天來都沒!你低限的啊!憑這樣一年啦!一年起跳啦!對不對!對吧!這叔叔對吧!那後面的帥哥對不對!那應該要看司法這方面的資料這差不多一年啦!同意吧!點頭嘛齁!我這個資料都是跟你們對過好幾次的啦!"},{"start":15990.287,"end":16012.452,"text":"那就是警政署來證實我們大概一年左右能夠拿回來最多一成大家心裡會很痛我開了幾次的公聽會那個有人退休主將積蓄一千萬加一加一千兩千萬一下就被騙走了請問你副署長騙得最多的樣態是什麼"},{"start":16018.12,"end":16029.116,"text":"最多的樣態是什麼樣態是假投資假投資還有第二個是假網拍假投資假網拍這個是NCC管理事務部事務部說到這"},{"start":16032.766,"end":16049.096,"text":"因為這個我們這邊是就是網路如果經過網路廣告平台像Facebook這個我們就是源頭我們就會處理就你處理可是現在沒有法給你你也不敢有問題不敢把他移除啊你沒有移除啊對不對"},{"start":16050.617,"end":16065.948,"text":"我們現在有通報系統就是說如果確定這個廣告是假名的廣告我們通報向Facebook他會在要不要檢察官那邊同意你才能夠移除下架是不是你直接下架了對不對直接通報Facebook下架直接通報好那個翁主委啊"},{"start":16067.352,"end":16088.983,"text":"委員好你們這裡做什麼事我們的部分就是有關於電話那我在報告裡面已經詳述了從112年5月那時候的那個境外的詐騙電話是5080萬通到我們除做了那個境外電話的攔阻警示現在只剩下1230012300多通就表示說這個詐騙電話減少了75%這個是有數據的好那個邱副主委"},{"start":16098.82,"end":16106.221,"text":"跟我們報告金管會部分我們督導金融機構從他的靈櫃跟網路銀行相關這個加強關懷提問跟這個技術上的一個防阻另外就是配合各個部會大家一起來做一些宣導工作"},{"start":16124.005,"end":16151.414,"text":"尤其剛才委員提到的這個投資詐騙的部分在投信頭部法修正以後我們在整個主動收報的部分已經收報到5萬多家5萬多則的話我們就是依照規定他是詐騙的我們就是提到這個警政署裡面讓他去下架你這樣攔阻了多少錢有沒有算一下攔阻的部分攔阻了多少錢不匯出去有沒有"},{"start":16152.076,"end":16155.337,"text":"所以你要吹噓的就是因為你們有林桂關懷所以減少可能100億的損失是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":16177.758,"end":16178.358,"text":"警政單位也幫忙警察機關一起來做處理來攔阻謝謝"},{"start":16205.674,"end":16222.822,"text":"好不好,我們下次再問你,謝謝好,謝謝拜委員那也請邱副主委,我蠻好奇那百億統計表給我們交通委員會一下好不好各個銀行分類一下,看哪個銀行擋得比較多好,謝謝好,接下來有請陳廷飛委員陳廷飛陳廷飛委員不在再接下來有請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":16243.452,"end":16262.961,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席了正午經過這場官員會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請我們速發部黃部長黃部長還有通傳會的翁主任委員翁主委比較了解我們這個數據犯罪的不曉得是哪一位,待會再自己上來"},{"start":16264.281,"end":16286.578,"text":"我很快來講聲音又有限部長目前我們看到的創意司法報紙上說停止解析仍然可以看主要是因為他知道不是透過國內的四大電視台他用VPN的代理商就可以看那出發部也表示你們將會持續的積極協調提供業者ISP加入DNS、RPG的機制還會跟TWNIC來共同討論請問協調怎麼樣"},{"start":16290.322,"end":16300.021,"text":"有事要不要來協助一下報告委員那個就是因為有的這是書發部表示啊那怎麼是你們在有線電視喔因為他沒有加速DNSRPG那我是在問書發部長啊"},{"start":16302.432,"end":16328.717,"text":"這個報告委員 這個不好這樣寫的嘛對 那個是我們去協調那當然這裡面牽涉到電信業就是很好 電信業問題 下來我們看一下喔ISPR沒有加入DNS RPZ造成破口所以呢非三大電信業者呢他如果是提供網率追求服務的ISP呢他有的已經加入DNS RPZ了有加入採訪中心了 這個OK他沒有加入的機制怎麼辦這些沒有加入怎麼辦 我們看下一頁"},{"start":16330.066,"end":16342.018,"text":"我有發文去問過你們要求創意私房停止解析請衛務部喊請通傳會請主管網域的機關停止他這樣解析論壇照辦照辦了沒?NCC照辦了沒?"},{"start":16344.758,"end":16361.854,"text":"報言那個我們現在所有的有線電視業者有的都間接的透過電信業者來加入間接的透過就二類以前的二類嘛你們說是不是要你們在我的記者會上說將來會長期一個電信管理法的工作小組成立了沒有有成立了好我們現在開始問三個問題第一進入如何"},{"start":16364.753,"end":16367.896,"text":"目前在電信法規當中應該辦理電信業登記的ISPR如何管理?你們的草案當中怎麼管理?"},{"start":16384.34,"end":16389.383,"text":"其實現在網路詐騙他們怎麼來的?你看我現在讓你看一下當你看到一個網路上你要買一個什麼?購買鑽石,遊戲的鑽石他會停一個,不是三秒鐘,停一個空白"},{"start":16408.334,"end":16432.291,"text":"他就是在轉什麼轉到其他的因為呢這個空白頁面是全球的WHOIS查詢這個123的空白頁面就是沒有納管的ISP啦什麼意思我今天要買遊戲點數我以為我用信用卡我用這個電子支付我付給了對方這中間的過程最後拿到錢的不是你看到的那一個人好再往下下一頁"},{"start":16434.357,"end":16459.968,"text":"金流是透過衛納管的ISP的網頁移轉而且你購買了油氣點數之後油氣點數的移轉也不是透過ISP的頁面移轉是透過衛納管的所以衛納管的ISP它扮演了我們金流查詢它的足跡的斷點今天自由時報的頭版有一個什麼台灣高鐵的優惠點數被拿來怎樣倒賣"},{"start":16461.055,"end":16489.873,"text":"你知道這點數怎麼賣嗎?點數可以交易耶怎麼去交易怎麼去查?如果他這個交易的過程當中用ISP啊你就根本查不到所以接下來結論違法的金流再往上跳一下違法的金流他用遊戲點數透過未納管的ISP移轉我是犯罪集團我騙了一個人頭的受害者他去網路上要跟我交易遊戲點數透過未納管的這個ISP我就可以把點數拿到我手上"},{"start":16490.66,"end":16502.763,"text":"透過維納館的ISP不但可以洗錢也可以防止事後你追蹤我的交易的誤進有沒有人現場知道這個問題的嚴重性牛市長 是是不是這樣子"},{"start":16503.96,"end":16528.395,"text":"委員確實那我非常感謝委員提案針對ISP的業者去做處理因為這確實是一件非常嚴重的事情那也謝謝通常會我們會跟通常會一起來合作努力把ISP的部分能夠做處理那我相信如果委員能夠針對這部分委員已經提案針對這部分如果能夠落管的話我相信對網絡詐騙還有兒少的部分都會有非常大的幫助"},{"start":16528.855,"end":16543.326,"text":"黃部長請你要肯定一下牛司長我們在這個案子當中我們多次請教他也聯絡了我們的這個通傳會也了解目前法規上的不足現在需要的不是問題在哪裡也不是問題如何解決是要趕快解決、趕快修法"},{"start":16543.846,"end":16566.653,"text":"如何阻斷詐騙的債圖金流以及偵查洗錢或違法金流的交易?具有點數交易,包括使用者跟使用者之間,他們所通過的網路平台,要有沒有用洗錢防治法來納管?現在有一個洗錢防治法,所以只要可以用來洗錢或來用點數讓你無法追蹤的交易的都要納管,部長支持嗎?"},{"start":16569.534,"end":16581.375,"text":"所以請進入納管為在電信管理法當中規範應辦理電信事業登記的網際網路接取服務提供者就ISP沒有問題嗎因為剛剛NC主委已經說了他們已經修法了"},{"start":16583.436,"end":16608.029,"text":"第二,請評估將具使用者與使用者之間的點數交易的網路平台以洗錢防治法納管的可行性部長,這一點就是你們的事情了因為目前電子支付的金流是由你們來主張的未來到我們的洗錢防治法、到我們的打詐釋法當中這個部分都是由書發部來負責的請一個月內提出書面報告,可以嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":16612.985,"end":16635.737,"text":"謝謝鍾委員接下來有請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請NCC的主秘NCC黃文哲主秘"},{"start":16644.714,"end":16668.326,"text":"委員好主秘好請你上來是因為我認為翁國忠是一個違法任命的代理主委我立場表達得很清楚了前兩天兩位民進黨政府提名任命的NCC委員說回首四年在NCC的任期看到的都是全力施展於追求非常了不起"},{"start":16669.557,"end":16697.066,"text":"政府還買單鬥弱腐敗跟政媒空氣然後部分委員可以完成業者跟業界交辦的任務你作為NCC的主祕 贊不贊成兩位前NCC委員跟NCC沉痛的控訴完全不贊成李立委員說現有的人嚴認沒有正當性政府的做法不僅無法對民意負責還有存在正當性的問題 贊不贊成"},{"start":16699.176,"end":16726.234,"text":"我贊成你通通都不贊成沒有關係你捍衛既有體制的決心在全體國人面前展露武藝非常的佩服來三立新聞台說我經營剪掉這條線最少7年休息來源200%信賴我非常的篤定結果三立這個是新聞"},{"start":16728.154,"end":16750.111,"text":"上帝新聞做完了以後北檢直接打臉說沒有他報導的來源根本不是來自檢調所謂200%的信心進行檢調7年從北檢的觀點是胡說八道那如果說從北檢的觀點是胡說八道的話NCC認不認同北檢所做的最後調查的結果"},{"start":16758.645,"end":16768.189,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案件因為已經有民眾在檢舉這個事情了,所以我們已經啟動我們的這些程序,目前我們已經請三例,我們就這一件沒有善盡查證責任這個事實,請他陳述意見所以你們要查多久?"},{"start":16778.321,"end":16797.99,"text":"我們上次 我就在記者會上面已經有委員 也有立委 也有記者問過那我們過去 要過去的程序的話我們會在 請問我 就回答我的問題嘛你上次記者會有記者問 我都尊重啊 是上次有記者問 跟我在這邊請教你這件事情有什麼關係啊所以要多久 兩個月那效率怎麼這麼差"},{"start":16799.23,"end":16819.702,"text":"人家北檢9月9號立案欸9月16號結果就出來了欸人家花7天就處理完欸北檢7天就調查出來了說那個記者胡說八道啊哇你的NCC要兩個月喔跟北檢比起來NCC效率是不是太差啊"},{"start":16822.076,"end":16841.942,"text":"報告委員我們NCC有他們既定的一個一定要遵守的程序所以你們遵守程序嘛對不對那北九有遵守程序嗎這個不是我能回答的OK好沒關係啦我們就繼續往下看嘛來檢驗一下我們NCC的效率2022年已經有人檢舉囉跟NCC檢舉喔"},{"start":16848.15,"end":16875.247,"text":"孫欣欣委員：那個時候的副主委翁伯忠洩密就翁伯忠發了一個聲明說來文附件的刑事真正性都尚待審酌如果連刑事真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證什麼叫刑事真正性這個我相信那個主密你應該很清楚來這個來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有"},{"start":16878.13,"end":16902.076,"text":"這個是NCC要調查的事項啊來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有所謂的刑事真正性就是說至少要知道說這個人到底是誰發的然後怎麼回事啊不然刑事真正性這個對所以我在問你嘛這個不是NCC該調查的事項嗎所以我問你啊調查到現在刑事真正性跟實質真正性我不需要在這邊解釋給你聽吧"},{"start":16904.454,"end":16932.495,"text":"刑事真正性就是那個LINE是不是真的嘛還是有人批圖偽造變造的嘛這個叫刑事真正性嘛至於那個LINE裡面如果是刑事真正的沒有批圖沒有偽造變造那個LINE的內容那個LINE的內容裡面是不是有人胡說八道那個是實質真正性的問題嘛所以我現在問你啊2022年到現在也兩年多了嘛刑事真正性確認了沒有"},{"start":16934.175,"end":16936.096,"text":"請問我請我們政風主任來回答行事真正性確認了沒有來請"},{"start":16957.117,"end":16972.094,"text":"這個跟委員回報齁那這個全案就是移送到地檢署去那至於這個賴的真實行政行事真正性呢我們沒有特別去奇怪了連行事真正性都沒有調查喔"},{"start":16973.936,"end":17001.71,"text":"你們正中是在打假球喔?做事做得這麼slappy喔?還是因為調查的去副主委?不敢查?自己包庇自己人?跟委員報告這個有移送到地檢署全部的內容都移送到地檢署去調查所以我問你嘛!刑事真正性確認了沒有?有確認還是沒有確認?有這麼難嗎?這個跟地檢署調查的內容沒有關係啊!刑事真正性確認了沒有?請回答"},{"start":17005.562,"end":17017.255,"text":"確認了沒有?你政風就刑事的真正性有沒有確認?有這麼難回答喔?還是長官坐在這邊不敢答?所以確認了沒有?我在問A你答B喔請問你刑事真正性確認了沒有?"},{"start":17028.508,"end":17043.28,"text":"確認了沒有?在當時候沒有特別去訪談這個先生所以你們政風是現在處於一個過水的狀態?不會所以你們政風發揮的功能就是過水嗎?連形式真正性都沒有去確認喔?"},{"start":17044.727,"end":17061.289,"text":"跟委員報告其實行政調查它有一定的局限對嘛所以我問你形式真正性你請當事人來手機拿出來那不就知道是真的還假的嗎你連形式真正性都沒有確認那請問你們政風到底在幹嘛"},{"start":17062.21,"end":17074.85,"text":"其實這部分應該不會有什麼質疑那等一下喔 聽聽聽你說這部分沒有什麼質疑那不對喔因為有質疑的是歐柏宗阿歐柏宗連形式、真正性都在否認阿"},{"start":17076.681,"end":17102.759,"text":"他的聲明你沒看過他說他連刑事真正性都質疑啊那你怎麼會說沒有什麼問題所以我才說我們就全案移給地檢署去做更深論所以我就在問嘛你們政風的存在到底查了什麼東西嘛連刑事的真正性都沒有辦法去確認還是不敢確認還是我們現在政風扮演的角色就是有人投訴政風不查全案移到檢調那要政風幹嘛"},{"start":17105.12,"end":17128.415,"text":"那要政風幹嘛?連刑事還真正性都沒有去查喔?相關行政調查 政務室都有調查所以啊 你調查完了 請問刑事真正性有問題沒有問題?奇怪 你說行政調查 你們都有調查現在我還沒跟你扯實質真正性欸你連刑事真正性都沒辦法確認 然後你跟我說政風有調查請問查什麼啊?請問查什麼啊?"},{"start":17131.994,"end":17158.437,"text":"可以不可以跟大家說明一下因為我現在完全聽不懂啊政經有查但是形式真正性到現在還搞不清楚這個不是很奇怪的事嗎這個LINE是真的還假的有人批圖嗎這個圖是批的嗎當事人找來手機看一下都知道啦這個都是朋友傳給陳建平的截圖啊"},{"start":17160.308,"end":17180.237,"text":"這刑事真正性怎麼會有問題連當事人都沒有約法連刑事真正性都沒有確認那請問政經在查什麼嗎跟委員報告其實這個賴的截圖的內容我個人認為他不會可能對沒有這"},{"start":17181.561,"end":17205.574,"text":"我覺得他不好意思請他回答你要他代打我沒有阻止你這個截圖我們不認為可能是不認為是有這個說謊或是他們可能是在那時候你不認為說這個截圖有說謊代表是你確認這個刑事真正性是嗎"},{"start":17206.707,"end":17224.823,"text":"因為培偉跟陳建平之間的對話我不認為他們之間有什麼作家那所以我們沒辦法釐清他們兩個講話的真實性我們一樣一樣來嘛那不對啊但你們的副主委現在的代理主委是連形式的真正性都要爭執啊"},{"start":17226.224,"end":17249.389,"text":"我有說錯嗎政政室的立場就是移送地檢署調查對嘛所以我就說嘛我們沒辦法去辨別那你們地檢署到底你們政風到底在做在在做什麼嘛聯席室的真正性現在終於確認不認為有問題那奇怪囉NCC委員欸向業者通風報信欸這麼嚴重的事情欸"},{"start":17253.294,"end":17272.955,"text":"就有NCC搞了兩年喔搞了兩年啊搞到今天都還沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代而這個涉案的當事人啊正在違法的擔任啊代理主委這個就頗為傳給陳建平的截圖啊形式真正性我都去確認了啊"},{"start":17274.195,"end":17298.943,"text":"我問了本人啊說人家質疑你那個是P圖是假的啊他手機拿來給我看啊是真的啊是真的啊那問題就來了嘛那現在的NCC到底在幹嘛現在NCC到底在幹嘛2022年的事啊現在已經2024年了現在已經2024年了到2024年還是一團迷霧啊在NCC內部的陣風"},{"start":17304.474,"end":17325.724,"text":"查你們自己的長官查成這個樣子喔跟委員報告這個行政調查他一定有侷限性那至於這裏培偉跟陳建民之間的對外內容的真實性必須再由司法做更深入的調查勝鋒是已經進了行政調查的方式現在只有兩種可能嘛一個是培偉唬爛說謊啦"},{"start":17330.305,"end":17354.426,"text":"對不對?培偉唬爛說要給執照是蔡英文交付的任務培偉也唬爛說博中傳了很多訊息給他第一種可能是培偉從頭唬爛到尾嘛第二種可能是他講的都是真的嘛只是沒有人敢辦嘛那培偉到底是不是唬爛這件事情為什麼重要"},{"start":17356.701,"end":17384.774,"text":"你們針對於媒體大股東不用審視視覺性喔來請主秘這個就不關政風了在媒體大股東要不要審查視覺性要要嘛那關安健來了喔一個喔按照民進黨政府的說法在外面假傳中通指揮胡說八道的陪委適合當媒體的大股東嗎"},{"start":17386.631,"end":17411.471,"text":"這部分不在我們的審查範圍等一下先停一下剛剛你不是說媒體股東的資格性是NCC要處理的怎麼又不在你們審查的範圍因為你在談的是我在談的是他的經營資格的問題不是在談他個人人品的問題沒有沒有這個跟人品沒有關係喔企業經營者你在媒體大股東的資格性他的誠信不是你們審查的標準喔"},{"start":17412.56,"end":17422.539,"text":"真的不是嗎你要不要回想一下你自己2012年的時候的主張是什麼你要不要回想一下當了官換了位置就換了腦袋喔"},{"start":17425.202,"end":17451.015,"text":"不是嗎你現在在談的是說我在問的是啦第一個媒體大股東的事格性是不是NCC要審查的標的是不是是嘛第二個這個媒體的大股東他的誠信有沒有問題是不是NCC在審查有關於媒體負責人事格性的時候要斟酌的事項是我們會斟酌但是委員你剛才在所以我現在就要問嘛所以我現在就要問你們有斟酌嗎"},{"start":17452.176,"end":17470.827,"text":"你在談的是一些傳言的問題我怎麼去處理那個傳言先停一下 這不是傳言剛剛在後面的那一位他已經證實了這個刑事的真正性這個是陪委發出來的簡訊他說全案已經送地檢署調查單你奇怪了 你要把所有的東西要推給地檢署"},{"start":17472.348,"end":17490.481,"text":"媒體大股東的事格性是地檢要調查的事項嗎?不是對嘛 是你們NCC要處理的嘛那我現在就在質疑啊 有處理嗎?有處理嗎?這就是我的問題嘛我們會在審查的會去審酌這件事情現在我的質疑是 你們有審酌嗎?我們有審酌 對 那你審酌的結果"},{"start":17494.824,"end":17512.73,"text":"培韋發出來的簡訊只有兩個結果嘛一個他講的是真的他講的是真的翁博忠就有問題嘛一個他講的是假的他講的是假的那培韋這種信口開河的人還可以當媒體負責人喔不過培韋現在他只是股東並不是經營人奇怪了剛剛我問你的是大股東的適格性嗎"},{"start":17513.59,"end":17516.473,"text":"大股東是買股的問題大股東如果假設是經營人的話我們才會去依照我們的負責人的那個管理辦法去審查他的經營上的問題啊你剛才談的是誠信的問題誠信的問題跟股東這股東是沒有關聯的啊"},{"start":17531.765,"end":17560.605,"text":"剛剛我在說媒體大股東的事個性不是在講媒體負責人的事個性所有的問題在這裡全程錄音錄影全部都有記錄時間的關係啦我只講最後一句話從今天整個詢答的內容大家就可以清楚的了解為什麼這兩位NCC的前委員提出這個沉痛的控訴"},{"start":17565.56,"end":17590.75,"text":"好,謝謝,好委員。這個,這個政鋒啊,政鋒抱歉抱歉,我在那邊聽啊,因為我在等你們答案,等了兩年是這種答案啊。刑事真正性,不是回答司法的問題。司法有沒有人圖利,或者有沒有人幹什麼,是另外一回事。你要回答的是,你們用行政權去對抗檢舉人,你們的當時的副主委,用你們公權力、機關名義發一個新聞稿。"},{"start":17592.691,"end":17609.963,"text":"新聞稿是說我迴避的理由是很高尚很高尚因為這個東西沒有行政的真正性所以不需要按照你們的要點第8點有偏撥或是說利益衝突所以根本沒有這個問題因為它形式的真正性都還沒有"},{"start":17610.743,"end":17626.635,"text":"所以我們的副主委是高道德標準自己迴避那我現在你們要回應你們自己的行政的你們的新聞稿啊問了半天問題新聞稿到底發的對不對你們要去檢討這跟司法完全無關如果查出來是有行政真正性"},{"start":17627.395,"end":17654.703,"text":"他就不是高道德標準回應啊你要回應立法院你要回應很多的一個民眾你要回應當時去檢舉的人你羞辱了別人讓 對不對那到底行政真正性到底是還不是嗎我覺得你們在扯齁說是就是嘛經過兩年查出來他到底是不是人家簡訊去傳內容是不是涉及違法那後面再去弄我是覺得這個部分你們事後說清楚謝謝"},{"start":17658.773,"end":17659.274,"text":"接下來有請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":17674.008,"end":17685.339,"text":"主席有請通傳會主秘黃文哲、基礎設施處處長陳春木、平台事業管理處副處長、黃天陽、電台與內容事業處處長、林慧琳好,林處長委員好"},{"start":17697.418,"end":17717.899,"text":"我先跟我們的主秘還有我們的通傳會的幾位首長說一聲辛苦了你們就被一個不合法的一個代理主委連累了我要特別講一件事情我想請問主秘國人對於打詐的成績滿意嗎"},{"start":17721.288,"end":17741.842,"text":"經過這一、這兩年我們的努力我們的各式各樣的作息我剛剛已經聽過你的詢談你自我感覺能力不輸給這個不法的代理主委但是我要跟你講你知道根據民意調查台灣有多少人接到詐騙訊息94%接過詐騙訊息到現在為止詐騙案件逐年創新高國人對詐騙打詐成績是很不滿意的你認同吧"},{"start":17749.614,"end":17773.928,"text":"我們會繼續再加強努力不用努力了啦你不就一個詐欺的代理主委在那邊我還期待你打詐做得出來你就是一個不合法沒有正當性的代理主委在這邊我還期待你今天一個NCC在一個不法代理的情況之下你不用了你不用了我知道你也忠於護非法代理主委我剛剛都幾下聽到了有這樣的一個非法代理主委在那邊"},{"start":17779.417,"end":17791.82,"text":"整個NCC還對他能有什麼期待不用期待了再來我要想請教一下請問一下祖密阿你會告訴我這個通傳會組織法第4條第1項的規定是什麼告訴我這個法條你平常不知道我無所謂啦今天這個場合你不知道我就很有意見啦要翻六法全書啦"},{"start":17809.434,"end":17838.905,"text":"今天就所有問題都出在這個法條不是嗎本會自委員7人均為專任任期4年 任滿得連任一次已連任者不得再任請問這翁伯中先生齁我連代理主委都不是很想稱呼他啦翁伯中先生他能不能再任啊呃 各位報告因為您您在說的那個院長還沒有我們今天院長還沒有好啦後面我告訴你啦我再告訴你啦"},{"start":17840.239,"end":17864.265,"text":"就是公然赤裸裸踐踏立法院三讀通過的法律去鑽你的所謂的行政院命令定制的法律漏洞講白了就是如此講白了就是如此現在法律規定就是不得連任我們的翁先生是不能連任的更重要的是三讀也刪除原來的第四條第五項條文是什麼?三調是什麼?請問三調是什麼?又不知道了"},{"start":17869.921,"end":17891.839,"text":"當然是啊!刪掉言論的部分,就是代表可以言論還是不可以言論?你中文行不行?上次委員您在立法院通過的那個是...不來吧!你要繞回行政院,來我再問你下一個請問我們的這個NCE組織法第5條規定是什麼?英國委員...O6法全書開始熟一點"},{"start":17898.666,"end":17919.826,"text":"應國會執行支付室由副主任委員代理主任委員、副主任委員出缺或無法行使職權時由行政院長指定委員一人代理我想請問現在NCC剩幾位委員現在剩三位三位委員我告訴你這就是一個多麼惡劣的行政院今天那三位委員可不可以代理"},{"start":17922.409,"end":17949.669,"text":"我問你可不可以代理我只問你可不可以代理你不要再扯到別的地方可以但是委員會會貪婪我可以講很簡單的一件事情今天如果行政院是針對那三位的NCC委員指定代理的話就不會有今天的狀況了你要講什麼人數不足那是另外的問題我只講代理的部分我講白了"},{"start":17951.021,"end":17963.588,"text":"你今天我跟翁先生講一聲啦說實在話做官不用愛做官到這種程度啦真的不需要你為了你自己我還沒問你我做結論很快"},{"start":17965.114,"end":17991.941,"text":"你今天行政院為什麼要留翁伯忠這世界上這麼偉大只有翁伯忠先生可以當主委是為了讓委員會可以正常運作你不要來跟我來這一套你們本來說iPhone16不能上市上市了沒有上市了但是我們會有又要開始時空環境改變不是不是是因為所有的即便是上市的結果他仍然要等委員會追求你有沒有加入民進黨沒有你趕快加入啦"},{"start":17998.635,"end":18016.666,"text":"今天如果說行政院尊重立法院的法律我說真的今天啊 翁委員你稍微想一想機關尊嚴啦不需要為民進黨扛這個啦 真的整個部門因為你停當"},{"start":18018.683,"end":18031.709,"text":"今天你按照法律有這麼難嗎?沒有關係,你要抓那個以命令定之我現在就直接說,我就開始連述修法法律公佈之後就施行,你現在不用命令定之了啦,謝謝好,謝謝羅志強委員接下來有請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":18049.818,"end":18049.838,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":18064.67,"end":18077.4,"text":"好部長好部長對於最新的打造儀表板數據10月5日單日全台詐騙案件送禮高達510件財損金額高達2億7194萬其中假投資詐騙最為嚴重詐騙的案件持續攀升部長你自己有沒有收過詐騙簡訊"},{"start":18087.788,"end":18088.709,"text":"網路上已經罵聲連連,部長你知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":18112.216,"end":18126.449,"text":"那個報告委員這個是網路的我們說的Beta版就車子網路詐騙查詢法是個Beta版但是就一個測試版所以我們公開就是讓民眾測試然後給一些意見回來我們可以再做精進跟修改那這個APP大概花多少錢一千多萬"},{"start":18127.63,"end":18141.984,"text":"一千多萬一千多萬給我一塊錢都不用我用Google表單馬上做到給你一千多萬我想數法部坐領了這麼多的預算現在做了一個Beta被罵聲連連Google表單都做得比你好"},{"start":18142.805,"end":18157.839,"text":"Google表單要錢嗎?如果只是一個填表填資料有需要花到人民納稅錢這麼多嗎?我們心中自有一把尺開發了一個網友覺得無用的APP現在告訴我們是Beta版我要告訴大家"},{"start":18158.719,"end":18182.311,"text":"這些真的能夠符合民眾的需求嗎?無法做到實質性的預防甚至能夠協助受理案件幫忙後續來幫忙封查這些帳號甚至是未來的可疑性帳號能夠來通報我們都沒有看到這個APP有實際的作為這樣子要花一千多萬徹底能夠來杜絕詐騙的決心我沒有看到"},{"start":18183.132,"end":18196.291,"text":"實際看到這個APP上面顯示的金融投資APP已經通報了網路詐騙當中是最多的壓倒性案件再來可以看到一個月統計最奇怪的一件事情看新聞上面寫說已通報的疑似詐騙案件5.5萬條"},{"start":18198.294,"end":18201.318,"text":"其中2.7萬條以確認為詐騙確認非詐騙訊息為1.2萬則其餘可能是高風險的訊息善待處理還有重要性低等訊息但我實際下載這個APP卻很奇怪的訊息狀況"},{"start":18215.097,"end":18231.163,"text":"速發部剛出的時候我就下載了這個APP當時的總數的確是5.5萬左右我也不疑有它就沒有截圖可是在昨天下午4點18分我查看的時候啊發現疑似詐騙訊息的總數卻變成了53926跟原本的5.5萬條總數搭不上原則來說應該會變多怎麼我們的詐騙案件會變少啊"},{"start":18241.167,"end":18246.31,"text":"這真的是太奇怪了在4點27分的時候數字突然又變成了5395830分又多了兩個變成53960是系統有問題還是什麼狀況這些都影響民眾對於詐騙通報APP的信任部長您認為這個數據上面的落差有什麼問題"},{"start":18263.9,"end":18289.207,"text":"那個數據我們再回去檢查一下不過那個那個我們請那個組長報告報告委員齁因為這個你查的時間因為他每個時間在遞現在其實因為每個民眾都要下架在通報通報其實這過程中都會後台其實我們會給NINE跟META他們都會移除一個一個的把它下架掉所以這個時間點會一個一個往後移然後其實目前來講的話像之前"},{"start":18289.987,"end":18305.985,"text":"最早最早高峰大概每週大概有8萬筆的這樣子的這個詐騙的訊息但現在目前來講每週大概會降到大概1萬多筆左右所以我們持續努力當然有一些界面不是做得很好還有統計一些數據我們再精進那謝謝委員的指導我們再更努力精進"},{"start":18306.525,"end":18323.191,"text":"另外分類在該框裡面可以看到目前資訊上不足以判斷的數字是0請訴發部說明為什麼是0因為按照常理來說或多或少都會有一些難以判斷的個案尤其是你們案件量這麼大為什麼這個類別卻可以是0還是只是色好看的那個"},{"start":18326.004,"end":18344.429,"text":"我想數八部對 我想還是跟委員報告就是說這裡面的一些功能跟一些數據當然我們還需要繼續的精進但是就是說這個東西確實也讓我們在過去下架5萬多筆的加廣告所以確實有達到它的一個下架廣告的效果而且我們這個系統"},{"start":18345.629,"end":18359.997,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢?因為我們要跟後面跟臉書跟跟剛剛講Google去連接然後這個一些通報通報他們自動通報他們請他們下架那後面我們這個東西要確認是一個加廣一個詐騙訊息我們還要跟各部會做這樣的一個協調跟跟認證確認所以這後面有個蠻複雜的一個"},{"start":18364.36,"end":18383.23,"text":"市長我想你們都利益良善沒有人會去怪罪但是問題就是出在我們看到實際的東西出來以後不符合社會期待到底速發部對於我們現在APP上面具體的查核機制有哪些哪些指標會被用來判斷一些是訊息的危險性預估會有多長時間完成篩選和處理這個有沒有具體的時間表"},{"start":18384.15,"end":18410.622,"text":"建單之後大約多少可以完成24小時48小時還是一週我們都很期待速度越來越快透過AI科技透過這些東西通報以後能不能趕緊的受理通報每一個案件這是我們目前所期待的目前Meta佔大多數的通報案件Line的通報卻只有139筆可見我收到許多的詞情都是Line的群組在做投資詐騙可是現在這裡看到的是只有139筆"},{"start":18411.903,"end":18431.442,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":18431.462,"end":18458.296,"text":"那我希望這個部分我們要繼續彙整而且後續的改善方案你能夠在本席回應你們的資料讓我來追蹤一下因為我對這個部分我是非常大的意見如何能夠快速且有效的協助民眾通報後續攔截這是我們最重要的如何處理這些大數據能夠來趕快分類這也是我們希望民眾看到的最後我想問一下警政署本席最近接到一個陳情的案件利用回收舊衣服"},{"start":18458.756,"end":18460.298,"text":"目前每個地方好像都有類似的一個詐騙"},{"start":18483.567,"end":18509.86,"text":"包括其實網路也有使用本席的影片引導民眾加入代工群組然後告訴他們代工錢要投資這其實我們都有相關的報案資料我們還是希望警政署能夠把這一類的案件趕快統整出來配合速發部事後能夠幫忙剛剛說的市詐來做大幅度的宣傳甚至是攔截甚至是來一網打盡我想這個警政署責無旁貸一起來努力是謝謝謝謝趙偉"},{"start":18512.731,"end":18514.936,"text":"好 謝謝樓庭偉委員接下來有請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":18528.275,"end":18554.814,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 要邀請書發部黃部長黃部長邀請這個主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘邀請我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書黃執行秘邀請內政部警政署我們的副署長李副署長謝謝好 政府部門為了打詐"},{"start":18556.618,"end":18576.872,"text":"越打越詐,這是目前社會非常狼狼上口的一個語詞,但是聽到很難過。因為我們看到大家希望把這個事情能夠保護人民,但是似乎在預算不斷的增加,但是還是那四個字,越打越詐。"},{"start":18577.913,"end":18598.959,"text":"其實坦白講講到這個越打越詐除了人民難過我想各部會以及所謂的打詐國家隊應該也都很謹慎而且也很緊張很清楚的就是說目前的社會現象是如此所以我首先我們先從內部再來看社會面向"},{"start":18599.679,"end":18616.282,"text":"第一個警政署你打詐宣傳費你暴增了13倍114年度裡頭2.4億你113年度是1700多萬所以本席也看到你竟然兩年度的說明是一字未改啊"},{"start":18617.74,"end":18640.561,"text":"差了一年你要多了兩億的經費但是你在說明欄裡頭是一字未改所以本席也特別提出希望你們要怎麼樣告訴我們你要怎麼樣的具體方案所以到目前為止你只告訴我們辦公室說什麼你要加大電視以及網路防詐的這個宣傳力道"},{"start":18641.622,"end":18661.605,"text":"但是我們告訴你你要增加的這些錢增加的這個13倍到底你的具體執行計畫到底是怎麼樣從9月份到現在已經10月份一個多月的時間拿不出來你們到底是不願意拿出來還是你們有具體方案"},{"start":18662.54,"end":18664.182,"text":"副座請說說明這個公點都知道請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":18679.738,"end":18704.955,"text":"本席要說你這個差一年增加了兩億的經費到底你要怎麼做你會增加經費就是知道目前社會的現象是緊張的所以我們要支持但是你要有一個KPI你到底要怎麼做你的具體方案你的KPI是怎麼樣一個多月在你預算編列送到立法院到現在請從議到現在"},{"start":18708.317,"end":18710.619,"text":"本期一直追這個案子到目前為止還沒提出具體方案你有預算一定有方案嘛你什麼時候可以提出啊"},{"start":18733.334,"end":18738.295,"text":"接下來卓榮泰先生也講過院長講過集中打詐宣傳標案得標廠商集中高度所有的單位有沒有這回事"},{"start":18763.953,"end":18789.296,"text":"卓院長說如果這回事要檢討有沒有這回事我們目前是公開招標的當然是公開招標請針對問題回答吧要不然難怪是越打越炸卓院長已經說話了如果是高度集中的時候要檢討要不要檢討那當然因為我們明年就開始用複試今年就開始用複試結標了"},{"start":18791.055,"end":18812.603,"text":"明年也是複式結標的所以你們也看到各單位都在這邊也看到如果是集中標案變成全如左院長所說的你們也想要改變方法廣泛訊德你只有叫我們說要試詐你們要去宣傳道高一尺魔高一丈啊"},{"start":18813.643,"end":18813.723,"text":"打詐中心"},{"start":18829.471,"end":18835.253,"text":"行政院宣布打詐經費預計編列73億比2024年增加了4.8倍那請問大幅增加這個預算的重點是什麼你有沒有方案"},{"start":18846.656,"end":18863.506,"text":"防損、財損的績效指標你要怎麼樣降低這些案件本席給你一個數字給你這個數字也就是說我們看到現在在監獄裡頭受刑人全部全國五萬八千人五萬八千人裡頭"},{"start":18865.373,"end":18882.513,"text":"五萬八千人裡頭第一個吸毒者第二個就是我們的這個詐欺犯讓我很難過我們如果五萬八千人統計這兩個一二名的排行榜就將近有三萬五千多人"},{"start":18883.234,"end":18905.77,"text":"是因為這樣子所以剛剛北京也在司法委員會我所提出我說這樣子的一個詐欺案件已經困擾了全國的民眾接到詐騙警察的電話占上94%怎麼辦怎麼辦所以請教我們預計要編列的73億的這些經費你的在2024年增加4.8倍你的"},{"start":18910.92,"end":18932.838,"text":"計較指標是什麼是 感謝委員跟我們指導提出這麼聚焦的一個問題在明年的預算當中有增淚的部分就是因為我們要因應網路科技運用進進計畫這個會增多了50多億元那這個區塊就是為了回應那個現在委員在你的那個簡報上面所提到的對於網路區塊"},{"start":18934.079,"end":18962.294,"text":"因為他都是透過VPN我們希望能夠留存必要的訊息未來才能夠做後續的反查跟追蹤那第二個更重要的是在打詐綱領2.0在明年的時候我們目前也積極的召集各部會持續來研討不管是在四大堵詐防詐、阻詐跟懲詐五個面向會就目前我們社會大眾所期待的"},{"start":18962.614,"end":18988.653,"text":"要做具體的策略還有提出具體的分項指標應該會讓國連有一個耳目新而且能夠有感的一個具體的做法以上好我也謝謝你剛才的回答我們也希望能夠有這個理念方向要去落實你的KPI竟然定出來所以我再給你一個數字現在居冠的詐書是什麼假投資是"},{"start":18990.287,"end":19010.773,"text":"假投資的詐騙是低迷我們看到到8月份都是站上4成以上我們又看到一天至少有3億的財損金額產生雖然我們政府也提出了打詐這個儀表本真正的還原真相"},{"start":19011.773,"end":19038.779,"text":"也就是目前受騙的財損的金額案件數字以及財損的額度是足足在增加所以如果以目前的現象來看到2024年我們退工會有千億以上的人民的財損、受損這是非常的嚴重所以因此不管是在臉書、Google這些剛才所說的網路平台的一個廣告你們要怎麼樣"},{"start":19040.339,"end":19069.102,"text":"去合作主詐如果政府這個聯繫工作沒有做那也就是在整個網路的平台管理方法你有什麼更精進的方案請做說明感謝委員一直關注在網路這個區塊那個打詐新釋法他的核心要件就是讓民眾減少接觸減少誤信才能夠減少被害他已經94%全部都有怎麼辦"},{"start":19070.1,"end":19095.207,"text":"所以說在網路的區塊我們透過打詐新法要求的就是平台業者要能夠在源頭做好自主管理他是等待不是等待著民眾報案之後我們才來通報下架而是在廣告投放前就應該依照合約的自主管理你現在討論到這裡也就是本席要跟你討論的精髓各單位都在這裡"},{"start":19096.699,"end":19121.434,"text":"為了這個社會現象94%的人都接到詐騙集團現在投資詐騙局管每一天有3億以上的金額的財損被詐騙掉這樣子的情況我們台灣是一個幸福美麗的國家怎麼連人民的財產安全都保不了這個政府要怎麼樣對得起民眾"},{"start":19122.615,"end":19142.441,"text":"所以請所有的相關單位剛剛打詐中心所說的也成立了一個特別小組我覺得本期建議橫向的聯繫必須要好好的去聯繫我們希望可以讓人民來安心這是國家政府必須要負責任做的對不對是加油好謝謝楊委員好接下來有請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":19163.406,"end":19171.189,"text":"謝謝主席有請打詐辦公室指揮中心黃執密然後警政署李副署長黃副署長這個大概主席也有同感每個會期在各個委員會召開打詐的專案會議就起碼10次以上以內政委員會召開兼交通委員會召開事由法制委員會召開"},{"start":19190.895,"end":19217.978,"text":"這個財政委員會召開也許聯合經濟委員會也會召開為什麼那麼多的委員會都要召開如果你真的打詐有用的話產生嚇阻效果而且讓人民有感我們透過打詐司法以前的無法現在的司法如果確實發揮作用讓人民受損的金額降低案件減少我想這個部分不會那麼密集來召開打詐會議"},{"start":19219.366,"end":19228.968,"text":"我先請教一下這個指揮中心黃子密這個你的角色行政院站在行政院高柱打詐辦公室都要編制"},{"start":19230.685,"end":19257.218,"text":"跟委員報告目前打詐辦公室除了指揮官一人、執行秘書一人以外各部會目前還有6位那你們是任務編組嘛是那你們是指揮協調嗎還是什麼還是一個做一個匯報中心各部會的這個資料你要匯報給這個行政院、行政院長跟委員報告打詐指揮中心的核心目標是要統合跨部會那這個統合的功能有沒有出來"},{"start":19258.038,"end":19270.497,"text":"目前持續在推動努力當中指揮官是誰?內政部長是內政部政務次長馬世元馬次長他可以協調那麼多部會嗎?那你這個部會你這個指揮中心多久開始會?"},{"start":19272.322,"end":19299.355,"text":"目前從8月27日馬次長擔任指揮官以來已經有兩次召開跨部會的會議因為這個任務編組要發揮功能你要協助這個各部會在執行面有哪些碰到哪些問題資源有哪些不夠法制面不足你們去了解不是為了成立任務編組來編組那個警政署李副署長、黃局長"},{"start":19303.249,"end":19329.851,"text":"這個你們從這個從新世代打擊詐欺、張綱領1、2年打詐無法、1、3年再通過打詐釋法這個打詐釋法通過之後你們這個跟警政署透過這個金融機構合作去年、今年1月到8月阻攔一萬兩千件"},{"start":19331.747,"end":19346.173,"text":"一萬兩千件一萬兩千件我算了一下這個一天幾件一天六千一個月幾件一到八月一天發生五十件是沒有錯嗎是"},{"start":19349.11,"end":19370.538,"text":"有沒有做過相關統計那是屬於在都會區比較多還是非都會區比較多區別有沒有是北部比較多還是這個南部比較多六都的建樹會比較多六都的建樹比較多六都的建樹比較多所以你要分析為什麼六都的建樹會比較多因為他使用這個網路的平台的機會比較大所以犯罪的元首在哪裡"},{"start":19372.113,"end":19389.722,"text":"魔鬼藏在哪裡?就在平台嘛你沒有一個平台他就沒有被他犯罪的可能性跟空間嘛所以那麼多打詐的作為你是把平台管理好就好嚴打平台嚴管平台嚴打平台給他們最強的約束力跟拘束力你如果說不到你就滾出台灣"},{"start":19391.426,"end":19404.189,"text":"這個你要拿出這種魄力啊你要了解所有的這個詐騙都是後過這個平台嘛你也心知肚明嘛 對不對你是被動的去檢舉人家檢舉8日之後你再去處理還是你們主動去上網去看這個是民眾他去"},{"start":19411.297,"end":19426.074,"text":"接到詐騙以後然後詐騙集團他到請他到金融機關去復款所以他才攔住金融機關的攔住一天50次一天50件有報案的那沒有報案的黑書有幾件可能更多啊"},{"start":19428.226,"end":19453.872,"text":"所以為什麼會有這個問題就是他們透過網路平台得到這些訊息 啊 得到這些詐騙的訊息之後他才被誘騙去轉帳或之類的 對不對對 所以我們才會其他的部會啊 就數位部還有其他部會 你們是執行單位但是誰是網路平台的這個主管機關數位部數位部 是數位部是哪一位代表 部長嗎黃部長"},{"start":19457.108,"end":19457.768,"text":"網路平台的配合度怎麼樣?"},{"start":19477.995,"end":19478.015,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":19495.677,"end":19508.701,"text":"好謝謝邱志偉委員接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在下一位有請郭國文委員發言主席謝謝有請黃營南黃部長黃部長"},{"start":19529.95,"end":19549.585,"text":"國務委員好部長好部長你知道有一個數支付洗錢425億的事情吧請再說明數數支付的第三方支付的業者這個部分其實在之前本席在強調第三方支付是歸我們數位部所管轄"},{"start":19550.762,"end":19572.312,"text":"那過往沒有一個比較好的行政納管的模式然後呢我們用了一個所謂的這個能量登錄那時候本來是要採取法律專門不管怎麼樣就去年的8月就開始了但是呢你們有進行查核你們查核機制有兩種方式那一個是網路上一個偵測一個是實地的查核"},{"start":19572.992,"end":19598.124,"text":"在3月間的時候你們曾經查核過了兩次因為發現了內機內控有問題KYC也沒有做好沒有專職封控人員沒有公司內部的交易監控等等很嚴重喔都沒有採取任何的行政作為也沒有進行任何的行政處罰後來等到5月剪掉縮首之後貴部在7月9號的時候才廢止這個登錄資格"},{"start":19600.029,"end":19620.056,"text":"部長我想在520之前當然不是您在執行嘛在520之後你覺得這此事有沒有什麼檢討啊這個有沒有行政司令嘛你自己覺得嘛你都已經要納管了第三支付是你們業管的我們要加強集合跟納管沒錯這個我上任之後有要求欸425億欸嘿呀"},{"start":19624.591,"end":19636.289,"text":"而且你現在第三方支付當中呢總共高達你納管的家屬是68家之多欸你有沒有想過去去徹查過其他的家屬有沒有造成類似的情勢的發生有沒有可能"},{"start":19638.029,"end":19664.639,"text":"有積合再平和我們有積合41家了跟委員報告我們有積合41家了積合41家那是連68家都還沒有積合完嘛對不對是我們會選擇我們跟治法當中有合作重點不是積合幾家重點你積合了什麼用了什麼作為3月都弄到搞到7月才廢除搞到剪掉的時候已經把你查獲了你3月都已經清除了你居然還沒有廢除"},{"start":19665.725,"end":19668.367,"text":"這沒有檢討空間嗎 這沒有行政私能嗎任由讓他去洗錢改善報告我讓你看一下他比你會改善啊你看這家公司他還加入這個FIDO的國際組織而且這個FIDO國際組織會員當中他用這種方式還強調他是屬於防詐神隊友"},{"start":19697.726,"end":19718.886,"text":"為自己洗名聲阿花錢洗名聲阿照說這一個業者阿他基本上沒有提供任何的認證服務阿他是購買者他不是提供者他根本就需要加入FIDO為什麼企業形象嘛好包裝嘛掩飾他的犯罪行為嘛部長"},{"start":19720.157,"end":19744.321,"text":"像這種有沒有要叫他把他廢掉啊FIDELINES這個國際組織加入這個國際組織的管理辦法我不是很清楚不過基本上他是沒有審核機制就是那如果其他的行為當初你們要注意一下這一個者好再拉回來講時間不多我算給你聽啊這一家大概百分之百的洗錢公司啊你看他當初跟你報的日均的交易額是3000萬成立了4年的時間365天加起來啊438億"},{"start":19751.249,"end":19752.61,"text":"剛好被查到了425億部長我剛才跟你質詢了好幾分鐘啊你說要加強要怎麼加強法"},{"start":19760.561,"end":19765.084,"text":"兩階段的查核一個是網路監測你有沒有達到實質的效果二來實地的調查你有沒有達到一定的成效"},{"start":19784.093,"end":19809.495,"text":"是不是笑死人第三方支付這麼多家結果你拿給他所謂的能量登錄變成是整個數位部去背書這些洗錢公司部長你先上來啦你也算倒霉啦但是呢我講白一點啦你既然上了你就要承受這個責任跟任務吧我跟你說有一個可能的方式啦本席的建議啊"},{"start":19811.638,"end":19834.995,"text":"面對這些業務的一個監督啊我建議說你要定期的這個查核他的財報啊必要時候派一些會計師去實地的查核簡單的講現在金管會有人在這邊啊10億上到20億之間財報金管會要管啊10億以下你們去管啊欸那個副主委你也知道來來來副主委你提供經驗給一個部長一下部長主席耽誤再一分鐘時間啊"},{"start":19841.82,"end":19859.689,"text":"跟委員報告有關的第三方支付如果日平均是如果20億的話就要申請特許事業變成電資所以到底第三方支付有沒有達到相關的這個金額我們也有就是說特定的金額比較接近的"},{"start":19860.389,"end":19885.65,"text":"有找會計師,要求會計師去做一些查核,看看他的金額怎麼樣,然後提供給這個數位部做參考。是,副主委你講沒有錯,基本上20億上是電子支付,但是你們有把那個管轄權下放到10億到20億之間,要進行一個這個財報的了解嘛,對不對?我覺得希望你們把這套制度給數位部好不好?讓他查10億以下可以嗎?"},{"start":19886.471,"end":19892.743,"text":"部長可以嗎?可以嗎?可以嗎?他有經驗,給你這樣可以嗎?好不好?OK,好,謝謝部長,謝謝。"},{"start":19897.574,"end":19916.073,"text":"好,謝謝郭委員接下來有請鄭振權委員鄭振權、鄭振權委員不在李博毅委員李博毅、李博毅委員不在林柱英委員、林柱英、林柱英委員不在接下來有請林月君委員發言"},{"start":19929.134,"end":19933.832,"text":"主席有請那個黃部長跟翁主委好黃部長翁主委"},{"start":19941.84,"end":19968.269,"text":"部長跟諸位兩位好今天一次請兩位上來是因為這個問題是我在總質詢的時候就有提可是時間來不及我沒辦法細談那如同我的質詢標題上而受網路的環境遭遇的風險比我們想像的更複雜或也更多也更危險那如果放任不去管理的話我想記詐騙之後我們可能會形成另外一個網路犯罪的一個溫床下一頁"},{"start":19969.502,"end":19991.514,"text":"那從數據上來看我們兒少在5到10歲也就是幼稚園階段到國小的中年級大概就已經開始接觸網路那每天用8點3小時所以兒少不是使用網路而是生活在網路下一頁那我們有一個情緒即換期刊也"},{"start":19992.338,"end":20016.77,"text":"提出了一個研究結果說我們的相關的訊息外傳跟網路的一個遊戲活動跟網路霸凌跟我們的自殺風險有高度的相關那所以今天就想來跟兩位談一談所謂的產業面這一件事情來下一頁這是上禮拜吼我們的TREI裡邊非常多的TREI友們"},{"start":20017.659,"end":20038.546,"text":"一時之間湧入到我的推理篇去談這個話題問我說誰要來處理這件事情為什麼呢因為學生是在2022年繳交的一個作業而且是私人影片傳給體育老師然後他的影片他自己都刪除了可是為什麼會在網路上而且不是只有他"},{"start":20039.175,"end":20061.231,"text":"還有很多同學的影片都上傳了那像這樣子的話不知道坦白講我當時找不到一個直接可以處理我要找衛福部的兒少全法來做處理嗎沒有我還是要找儀式網路主管機關的速發部還是要找NCC的網際網路傳播辦公室兩位我想請教一下我到底要找誰來處理這件事情"},{"start":20063.303,"end":20086.813,"text":"報告委員我們是按照兒少法46條有設立一個就是去有一個防範的機制那那個機制I 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