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位上次會議醫師有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話醫師確定那我們介紹在場委員首先介紹洪國昌委員謝榮介委員那我們接著介紹列席的官員司法院代理秘書長黃秘書長法務部部長、政部長"},{"start":2220.538,"end":2233.915,"text":"教政署州署長、內政部刑事局副局長陳副局長、衛生福利部代理司長鄭代理司長"},{"start":2239.712,"end":2259.021,"text":"本次議程邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部及相關單位列席就憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令的檢討與修正．進行專題報告．並備質詢。現在開始進行報告發言時間5分鐘我們先請黃代理秘書長報告"},{"start":2277.864,"end":2295.738,"text":"主席、各位委員本院奉邀致貴院司法法制委員會就《憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示所衍生相關法令的檢討與修正》進行專案報告在這邊表示感謝之意本這一次的"},{"start":2297.339,"end":2306.436,"text":"憲法法庭的憲判字就國人非常關切的這個死刑是不是合憲的這個議題那麼設定了說如果說這個個案的"},{"start":2307.861,"end":2320.292,"text":"犯罪情節確實是最嚴重的而且他的刑事程序也符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的這個要求那麼這次釋憲標的的四個條文包含刑法271條第一項、226條之一、332條第一項、348條第一項這四個條都涉及到故意殺人的這個部分那在這個設定的前提之下那並沒有違憲所以說"},{"start":2336.115,"end":2363.291,"text":"所以基本上在這一次憲判之下那在這個設定的前提之下那這個四個條文是合憲的那當然憲判制針對設定的前提有對這個包含訴訟程序以及實體的規定做相關的這個要求那以下簡單的跟各位報告那首先是關於本院執掌所關的包含刑事訴訟法跟法案組織法的部分那麼有關的部分是"},{"start":2364.191,"end":2374.928,"text":"憲判字主文第3項這第3項是要求在刑事偵查包含檢察官偵查以及司法警察在調查這個過程中如果說"},{"start":2376.451,"end":2402.589,"text":"涉及到這幾個法定行有死刑的案件那麼應該要現行以書面告知人民他所涉的這個罪名並且告知他得選任辯護人那這一些這個相關的這個規定涉及到刑事書法31條偵查中強制辯護的規定以及相關的通知方式那本院會同相關的這個機關來協商做相關條文的修正"},{"start":2406.832,"end":2418.346,"text":"其實是關於憲判字判決主文第4項第5項的部分這部分是涉及到那個第三審的這個強制辯論以及延遲辯論"},{"start":2420.216,"end":2440.728,"text":"因為我們目前刑事訴訟法388條跟389條並對於第三審是排除強制律師代理跟必要延遲辯論的那並沒有就死刑案件設例外那但是憲判制的判決要求說要符合憲法上最嚴密的正當法律程序所以在第三審也有辯護人"},{"start":2443.342,"end":2462.553,"text":"依賴的這個需求也必須進行延遲辯論但是實際上跟各位報告在最高法院從101年開始實際上面就實行了案件都已經進行了延遲辯論那在105年也修正了相關的規定那既然進行延遲辯論依照相關的規定當然就有律師代理"},{"start":2465.034,"end":2492.131,"text":"只是說以往並沒有在刑事訴訟法裡面去做要求所以這一次我們會依照憲法判決去修正刑事訴訟法388條跟389條那其次是關於死刑這一次憲判主文第6項要求死刑一字決這個部分那因為憲判之認為說今天要判人家死刑剝奪剝奪一個生命是不可挽回的那事後也沒有辦法做任何補救所以死刑的判決必須"},{"start":2493.092,"end":2504.177,"text":"不能有任何被懷疑所以今天假設一個判決死刑的何一庭本身意見都不一致是不是能夠讓人家相信說沒有任何的可疑確實是值得檢討的那實際上面以往的這個案例裡面"},{"start":2508.539,"end":2535.754,"text":"會宣判死刑的可能大部分也都是一字決只是說這一次宣判的這個主文裡面要求的合一庭一字決是指最後為實體確定裁判的這個法院而言而不是指說各個審計都必須一字決所以外界有一些的誤會在這邊做澄清今天假設第一院判無期二審改判主文這是可能的那在國民法官的案件也是指國民法官的三個職業法官一字決至於說"},{"start":2538.13,"end":2556.839,"text":"6位國民法官裡面只要有3位是贊成死刑那麼也符合國民法官法底下可以死刑的這個三分之二的這個要求那因為涉及到法案組織法105條跟這個國民法官法我們也會做相關的這些修正另外涉及到本院執掌還包含說憲判字第9"},{"start":2557.819,"end":2585.058,"text":"主文第9項關於執行受刑能力、死刑的受刑能力這部分涉及到說精神障礙跟心智缺陷然後對於死刑的這些理由跟理解有欠缺這些情形這涉及到刑事書法465條的規定那這部分我們也會會同相關機關去做修正當然這一次憲判主文裡面還涉及到說一些跟我們本院執行比較不相關比如說刑法"},{"start":2586.799,"end":2587.579,"text":"接下來我們請政部長報告"},{"start":2623.045,"end":2643.522,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生,大家早安。今天奉邀列席貴委員會就憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討及修正,代表本部列席報告並備質詢。報告如下,請各位委員來指教。那本部就實行制度在113.4.23號憲法法庭的延遲編中,我們就"},{"start":2647.962,"end":2669.969,"text":"鑑定為表達合憲的立場對憲法法庭在憲判字8號判決宣告死刑、限離、屍體、故意、殺人、個案、犯罪情節屬最嚴重程序符合憲法最嚴密正常法律程序之下的合憲判決我們表示尊重本部基於依法行政自應遵守憲法法令大法官所為相關解釋及判決"},{"start":2671.226,"end":2693.761,"text":"那在憲法法庭的一個宣告實行合憲的一個實體程序的限制情形下合憲我們已經依照憲判的意旨我們來完備來法律的一個程序我們積極檢視本部所主管的實體法規如刑法、監獄刑法等並以司法院所主管的程序法規如刑事訴訟法、法院執法等"},{"start":2694.321,"end":2723.035,"text":"我們已經在10月1號召開院部的交流會議就相關的修法事宜進行意見的將來能夠盡是完備相關的法律那我們是會盤點實體法規來強化密度這個就是在掩體刑法修正草案符合憲法判決行為史的精神或心智缺陷者不能判處死刑在就掩體刑法修正草案符合憲"},{"start":2723.855,"end":2740.788,"text":"法判決之審判時精神及心智障礙不得判處死刑的一個意旨那再來就是掩體無期徒刑假釋門檻層級化的一個規範嚴懲重大這個犯罪那第二再來就檢視程序法規來經過嚴密的一個程序"},{"start":2742.789,"end":2757.984,"text":"這個最主要是要修正建立行刑法增訂受刑能力的規範那再來就是與司法院共同研立修正刑事訴訟法相關規定包括刑事訴訟法因新增偵查中強制辯護的規定應修正刑事訴訟法388條第3審強制辯護的規定"},{"start":2762.168,"end":2780.981,"text":"刑事訴訟法第389、第30延遲辯論的規定以及修正第465條停止執行、死刑事由的這些規定那再來就是要嚴懲暴力犯罪、維護社會正義那37件的死刑就案我們會依法妥適的一個"},{"start":2782.211,"end":2796.588,"text":"處置37名人犯在法院撤銷確定判決之前我們是依法來說容那第二就是死刑案件全是我們都已經交給送檢送給最高檢察署來依法嚴謹來審核"},{"start":2798.208,"end":2819.219,"text":"那最高檢察署在提起非常上述的時候我們會建立法院在撤銷實行確定判決時要裁定羈押那我們也會要求立庭檢察官在具體論告羈押的必要性務實法院能夠裁定羈押那有關重大暴力犯罪我們會"},{"start":2821.482,"end":2835.959,"text":"從嚴追溯處罰．本部將要求檢察官嚴謹修正、審酌具體個案情節向法院具體求出死刑前面解釋暴力犯罪行為太陽嚴懲重罰暴力的犯罪那我們"},{"start":2838.289,"end":2852.421,"text":"憲法法庭對於實行制度宣告核限對判處及知性實行附加實體及程序的限制本部基於依法行政尊重憲法法庭判決結果憲法判決宣告前本部籌組應變小組嚴厲各種判決結果可能"},{"start":2856.408,"end":2882.753,"text":"判決宣告後．立即啟動相關應變機制．並積極檢視主管相關法規．本部將持續落實嚴懲暴力犯罪及保護犯罪被害人的工作．務求兼顧人權、保障及社會責任．以上報告進行主席．各位委員指教其餘機關是否要做口頭的補充報告?那個警政署或衛福部有沒有?"},{"start":2883.598,"end":2909.195,"text":"沒有好那如果沒有的話就請參照書面好 機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長上午10點30分截止發言那我們現在請登記第一位的委員黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2921.524,"end":2938.7,"text":"親愛的主席,麻煩有請司法院代理秘書長以及法務部部長代理秘書長、部長委員好代理秘書長,請問你會代理到什麼時候?"},{"start":2941.669,"end":2946.974,"text":"你不是申請回歸審判了嗎?通過了沒有?人審會還沒有開,明天會開明天會開,但你自己的意願是要回歸審判嗎?"},{"start":2960.507,"end":2975.881,"text":"因為所有的調動都是會需要法官表示意願的一旦你回歸審判以後秘書長的位置會有些代理我想假設有新的這個"},{"start":2977.728,"end":2979.688,"text":"是規定在司法院主持法還是司法院初步規程裡?"},{"start":3008.939,"end":3009.52,"text":"還有沒有來看一下齁就是"},{"start":3037.296,"end":3054.185,"text":"死刑判決要經過各級法院和議庭的一致決我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度不管在第一審也好、第二審也好、第三審也好你要判死刑只有一個選擇就是要一致決這樣的解釋沒有錯吧?要判死刑就是一致決有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度?"},{"start":3064.475,"end":3065.355,"text":"請委員指教"},{"start":3088.988,"end":3115.39,"text":"我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度我老實講我是探核官職你要強化正當法律程序這沒有問題但問題是什麼憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候自己扮演起立法者的角色還創造了一個獨立全球的制度我只有看過一審的時候是40審嘛"},{"start":3117.386,"end":3144.456,"text":"要求一致決在美國大部分的州都是這個樣子這個沒有問題但我從來沒有看過除了40層以外上訴到法律省的時候也要求一致決如果上訴到法律省的時候也要求一致決那問題很嚴重我為什麼說問題很嚴重我具體請教一下秘書長代理秘書長如果高等法院判決死刑"},{"start":3145.64,"end":3161.708,"text":"上述到最高法院最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪有一個法官不這麼認為此時這個時候最高法院的何一庭應該怎麼處理廢棄發揮還是自圍判決如果說有堅持堅持那當然何一庭他們會會去溝通協調溝通協調那他們就4比1啊"},{"start":3175.378,"end":3187.247,"text":"實際上面到底有多少案件是4比1的我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦我說現在的事情啦現在有個高等法院三個法官一字決判死刑"},{"start":3188.493,"end":3188.593,"text":"我想..."},{"start":3207.743,"end":3222.094,"text":"如果說他要撤銷發回他當然有可能就要撤銷發回請事實審再周真佐如果說他真的要自己判那當然不能判死刑沒有判死刑的話就照我們的評議的最重的不能過"},{"start":3222.734,"end":3225.115,"text":"實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛"},{"start":3244.599,"end":3267.17,"text":"所以就沒有啦你採取過判數的多數決就不會有問題嘛大家有不同的意見的時候在評議部上面寫意見嘛啊如果可以講到大家意見都一致就意見一致嘛就不會有在評議部上記的問題嘛那我現在的問題是說當最高法院的法官是4比1的時候所以這個時候你從司法院啊"},{"start":3268.753,"end":3282.887,"text":"憲法法庭做出檢視以後他的檢視必須要夠清楚讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判所以4比1的時候是我們的評議規則要改變就聽那一個人的是嗎"},{"start":3284.775,"end":3285.515,"text":"好 第二個當最高法院 認為"},{"start":3310.154,"end":3338.409,"text":"五個都同意應該要判死刑屬於情節最嚴重之罪但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的概念非常抽象的要件概念非常抽象因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性恐怕"},{"start":3339.491,"end":3361.166,"text":"自己都必須要接受檢驗啊我國的刑法點什麼時候有一個構成要件要素叫做情節罪嚴重啊但沒有關係最高法院的法官認為五個都認為這是情節罪嚴重被告他可以申請什麼憲法裁判嘛要求憲法法院審查這是不是情節罪嚴重我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":3366.226,"end":3373.37,"text":"應該是正確的應該是正確嘛到憲法法庭了以後問題來了憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪請問要不要求一字決"},{"start":3382.679,"end":3411.812,"text":"目前沒有要求目前沒有要求所以這個邏輯是什麼是不是可以請戴琳秘書長幫我們開示一下下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎還是大法官比較大所以不需要一致決來請戴琳秘書長"},{"start":3412.895,"end":3435.47,"text":"中文報告因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決所以說因 剛才要說你要維持死刑判決先等一下啦你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決你講這句話就錯了嘛我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文的規定的權限當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":3438.069,"end":3454.485,"text":"怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決做的可多了欸創設了一堆他的法律所沒有的權限代理秘書長事件的實務可能還是要熟一點啦我還是回來原來的問題啊請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":3455.97,"end":3471.483,"text":"跟委員報告目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決那奇怪了我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密下級審都要一致決只有他們自己不要一致決這個法理啊非常的精深啊是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下因為"},{"start":3474.673,"end":3503.892,"text":"大法官憲判字也只要求是宣判死刑的案件需要一致決也沒有說其他的部分要一致決那憲法法庭目前就我所知也沒有自己去判決死刑當然不會自己判決死刑嘛你上訴到最高法院的時候是不是要以判決違背法令當理由是吧一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令"},{"start":3505.285,"end":3526.025,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧對嘛 所以你即使是法律省的最高法院按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決啊我的說明有錯嗎請你用麥克風回答這樣子大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼嘛那一樣嘛"},{"start":3527.29,"end":3551.711,"text":"如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪申請憲法裁判憲法法庭做的一樣啊他只要維持了就是死刑啊他不維持的話那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛所以我的問題來啦憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":3553.206,"end":3571.68,"text":"那你剛剛給大家的說明是從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛我的說明有沒有錯對嘛 所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼你們下級審法院全部都要一致決啊但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係啊搞成這個樣子現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決"},{"start":3581.036,"end":3588.45,"text":"這個查完了沒有?現在還在調查調卷了解當中奇怪才37個案子欸啊這個調卷要這麼久喔?還需要多久?"},{"start":3592.745,"end":3593.225,"text":"所以清完沒有?"},{"start":3618.302,"end":3620.123,"text":"國民法官判死有要求一字決嗎?"},{"start":3638.103,"end":3656.192,"text":"跟委員報告國民法官判死沒有現在三分之二那剛才有跟委員報告那憲判字之後就是其他其中三位職業法官必須自決然後如果說不是啊這就很奇怪了嘛這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛他不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎"},{"start":3657.964,"end":3686.219,"text":"那為什麼國民法官的不要求一字決這個我看不懂啊跟委員報告因為國民法官法不在這一次那個四限標的範圍這次四限標的是四條我一開始有報告四條刑法的條文所以大法官也有講李委員也有講如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候也認為說國民法官的沒有啊你們當初研議的時候許中立送來的版本只要過半數捏"},{"start":3688.735,"end":3695.759,"text":"這是你們司法院送來的版本耶司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本司法院院長要不要點頭"},{"start":3697.33,"end":3719.449,"text":"需要還是不需要跟委員報告當然要但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭這個我知道啊我現在只有在問司法院的立場嘛因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛那我現在就直接請教司法院嘛就國民法官法的部分司法院有打算要求一致決嗎"},{"start":3723.377,"end":3735.128,"text":"還要研議多久不是啦 因為我覺得司法院啊很莫名其妙當初國民法官法送來的時候說要求只要過半數就好啦奇怪了我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔"},{"start":3741.581,"end":3769.554,"text":"因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣好了最後一個問題死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講那法官在個案裁量的時候對啊但是他都沒有給解釋喔他有給那個正面跟負面的他全部都是用什麼用舉例的方式喔"},{"start":3771.041,"end":3799.014,"text":"所有的法律人就會要求啦什麼叫做情節最嚴重這主要有個解釋吧如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來那請問以後要下級審法院的法官要如何解釋適用啊就看他們的例子喔好那你說要看他們的例子來我問下面例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果請問這是三者則一就是屬於情節最嚴重還是三個全部都要具備"},{"start":3801.021,"end":3821.329,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那實務上面的這個法官大概會綜合考量 也不是先停一下齁 我先不要推到未來實務上的法官依照憲法法庭解釋 解釋的內容 這三個犯罪動機與目的手段與參與程度 犯罪結果 它全部都有歷史嘛那這個是要同時具備"},{"start":3825.803,"end":3841.771,"text":"還是其中一個滿足就可以了這很重要啊我想跟委員報告齁因為我們當法官的這麼久去審判歷史這些東西我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去沒有沒有沒有我沒有說法官沒能力現在我只說就這三個歷史的是要同時具備"},{"start":3842.911,"end":3858.173,"text":"還是擇一就好不好意思我請他這個問題回答完就結束了跟委員報告就是綜合判斷因為每個案的情形每一個情況都不一樣今天說要去切割說一定是擇一我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟實務是不相符的啦"},{"start":3859.13,"end":3878.996,"text":"怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符啊?你以後就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果是不是都要求?是不是都要求他所立誓的情況?他每一個當然都要去做斟酌但是每一個情況不一樣你在做良心"},{"start":3880.987,"end":3888.781,"text":"判斷的時候每一個的比重多少法官應該本應他的確信依照他的良心去做斟酌今天不是一加一等於二的問題訴訟也沒有那麼單純"},{"start":3890.322,"end":3910.367,"text":"沒有啦 這不是1加1等於2的問題我時間到了啦 請你再冷靜的回去想一想我今天問的這個問題 我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題他在斟酌這三個要件要素的時候是不是都要符合大法官所講的歷史"},{"start":3912.29,"end":3940.733,"text":"這影響非常深遠這影響非常深遠請秘書長稍微自己想一下這個問題如果沒有解決的話未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從好 謝謝秘書長這後面這段我也聽不下去這個解釋最嚴重這樣解釋我沒辦法接受司法實務我沒走過司法實務啊但這個"},{"start":3942.485,"end":3971.091,"text":"不好意思那我們接下來請那個審法會委員發言主席我們請司法院麻煩秘書長委員好"},{"start":3972.198,"end":3999.767,"text":"秘書長好這個我想在我開始我今天想要談的問題之前先就剛才的一些法律上的問題來做跟這個秘書長這邊來溝通一下第一個剛才這個前面方委員的質詢裡面對於所謂情節最嚴重這個部分他認為是不明確的法律概念他認為是大法官的創制"},{"start":4001.547,"end":4025.878,"text":"但是其實齁這個所謂情節最嚴重這絕對不是大法官的創制他也不是說從來沒有出現過他就出現在什麼他就是我們台灣有簽署的這個公民與政治權利的國際公約第6條裡面他就寫得非常清楚他說凡未廢除死刑之國家非犯罪情節最重大之罪就是這裡"},{"start":4027.228,"end":4041.014,"text":"對不對所以他事實上他並不是大法官創製的這個這個名詞而是公正公約裡面第二條裡面已經有的答文對他是公約裡面本來就已經有的這是第一點齁核先續名但是就算吶齁"},{"start":4042.608,"end":4057.397,"text":"就算沒有這個國際公約事實上我認為這大法官會議解釋裡面對於所謂犯罪情節最嚴重的我認為他就是個闡明而已他就是闡明再次闡明說判處死刑必須是情節最嚴重的"},{"start":4060.579,"end":4085.87,"text":"這個我想如果沒有這個大法官會議解釋這個本來就是這樣子啊我們過去所判的有情節不嚴重的判死刑嗎我們可以說情節不嚴重我們就把判他死刑嗎不行啊死刑本身他就是我們的最高刑度目前制度下的最高刑度他當然是情節最嚴重才能判死刑啊對不對所以大法官會議做這個解釋他事實上只是再度纏綿死刑他必須嚴謹必須謹慎所以他必須是情節最嚴重對不對我這樣解釋"},{"start":4091.38,"end":4108.632,"text":"實務上面以往要判死刑大概也都是因為那個公正公約早就已經簽署了所以不會說因為大法官會議做了這個解釋所以讓原本會判會判的法官變得無所適從用剛才黃委員的講話變得無所適從應該沒有這樣的問題吧跟委員報告因為公正公約早就已經我們已經簽署了國內法所以他已經有這個要求了對好這個齁因為這個"},{"start":4121.584,"end":4124.008,"text":"我在這裡我也是希望就是說因為從這個9月20號憲法法庭做出這個"},{"start":4128.883,"end":4140.552,"text":"憲判第8號之後這個社會大家對於這個憲判的內容有諸多的評論那裡面有一些我看了這些評論我覺得很有道理但是有一些評論我個人認為說這個是這個錯誤的理解憲判的第8號判決所以我在這裡大概簡單的做這樣子的解釋看看這個秘書長怎麼看我認為這個大概"},{"start":4155.484,"end":4171.257,"text":"大概這個憲判第8號它就是四個內容其實它就是四個內容第一個它就是宣告如果唯一死刑是違憲目前唯一死刑的法條是違憲因為它沒有任何的衡量空間按照符合這個構成要件你就必須判死刑"},{"start":4171.957,"end":4191.337,"text":"所以他認為這個是違憲第一個就是唯一死刑違憲第二個就是剛剛所講的他再次闡明了死刑僅適用於這個個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的情形這就是我剛剛講他再次闡明這個判處死刑的這個原則第三就是說"},{"start":4192.981,"end":4211.798,"text":"他就死刑的部分這個部分是是可能是我們必須在修法上面做最大更動的就是在這個這個這個死刑判決他的程序必須更嚴謹程序必須更嚴謹所以他增加了一些程序的過去沒有的程序要求例如說這個三審必須延遲辯論剛剛所提的那必須強制辯護還有這個各級的這個何玉婷必須一致決這剛剛都講過那大概就是這些程序更嚴謹"},{"start":4219.672,"end":4245.617,"text":"這個程序嚴謹的要求大概就是我講的這個判決第3點第4點就是說他有關這個心智缺陷障礙的部分他設定特殊的一些程序過去我們規定的時候說你行為時的心智障礙但是現在加上審判時包括受刑時都必須心智能力健全對不對所以大概大法院會議解釋就是這4點所以這4點這樣集合起來現在大家把這個大法院會議這個憲判"},{"start":4248.177,"end":4266.484,"text":"這個憲判的這個這個第8號直接下一個標題叫做實質廢死我個人是非常不認同的他事實上沒有廢死也沒有實質實質上也沒有廢死他死刑就還是存在死刑還是存在他就是增加了對於判決死刑過程中的程序要求更嚴謹是不是這樣"},{"start":4269.606,"end":4285.858,"text":"那委員告見是不是是嘛齁所以所謂實質廢死所謂實質廢死我認為這就是這就是扣帽第一個是扣帽子第二個就是說我認為說事實上實質我認為這個判決實質上就沒有廢死他就死刑依然存在只是把死刑的要件這個必須判處死刑的這個要件定得更加嚴謹那當然這也會產生一些問題這個這個"},{"start":4299.417,"end":4322.633,"text":"我剛所講的這些齁還有包括這個這個剛才剛才黃委員在質詢過程中對於這個各省齁要各級各級都必須要一致決的這部分他認為這個是他認為這個是是法官愉悅大法官愉悅司法權權利齁所創所所這個這個進行立法的工作阿事實上"},{"start":4323.752,"end":4344.679,"text":"大法官從過去的大法官會議解釋到現在的憲法判決到從美國歷史上的憲法修正案這一些他就是法官造法的一部分是不是這樣我們現在所引用的憲法修正案這個大家最常引用美國憲法第5修正案他就是一個法官造法的結果"},{"start":4345.643,"end":4371.44,"text":"其實是闡明憲法規定的這個內涵對那他希望說事實上法官造法他確實是在透過大法官一解釋本身的功能他就法官造法的功能在裡面啊所以這個也沒有我個人認為也沒有所謂什麼什麼什麼前所未見什麼什麼這個我覺得這個都是都是言過其實事實上他就是一個法官造法他是一個非常符合符合現在這個憲政體制的一個過程"},{"start":4375.227,"end":4390.296,"text":"那我這個部分我大概花了一些時間來闡明也是希望說明讓社會理解大法官會議所做的這個憲法判決第8號我覺得它事實上根本離實質廢止還非常非常非常的遠"},{"start":4391.903,"end":4411.01,"text":"他完全沒有廢死他就是把這個程序做得嚴謹而已這是第一點但是我剛剛講過說這裡面他大概事實上也會牽涉到幾個問題尤其是國人大概最關心的從這個判決出來之後憲法判決出來之後最關心的就是目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人的相關問題"},{"start":4414.3,"end":4424.33,"text":"這個在憲法法院所做的這個憲判第8號裡面也做得非常清楚的而且也是一個重點也是在憲法判決裡面的一個重點那這個他大概提就是說"},{"start":4431.916,"end":4451.558,"text":"現在受這個宣告他大概提幾個要件可以提出非常上述可以申請或者是這個檢察總長依職權兩個程序兩個方法擇依可以申請也可以這個大法官這個檢察總長依職權他大概幾個要件第一個就是說他的犯罪情節非屬"},{"start":4453.415,"end":4464.426,"text":"最嚴重這部分看似比較抽象但事實上它裡面有一些產名對於這個必須要直接故意必須該掛故意必須擇一故意這個有做一些產名"},{"start":4467.452,"end":4490.921,"text":"那第二點他就是說你如果引用的法條你當初被判死刑引用的法條是唯一死刑的法條你這個就可以提非常上訴對不對那第三點就是說如果這個程序不符合他現在所提的這些程序包括沒有言詞辯論包括沒有自決包括這個沒有強制辯護那你就可以提非常上訴對不對那第四個"},{"start":4492.267,"end":4521.81,"text":"第4點他就說除了你申請有這次有申請解釋的案件以外其他的案件你即使沒有申請的案件你也可以用個案究記對不對大概他解釋的就這四個那依照這樣子的這個大法官會議解釋這個部分這個我們目前這37名死刑這37名受宣告死刑的這個受刑人他們你們什麼時候可以檢視完成他們到底是37個人哪一些人可以會符合這些要件"},{"start":4522.641,"end":4535.73,"text":"跟委員報告剛才委員可能有一點就是說今天針對因為原則上這憲判如果宣告違憲的話是向後的那是例外才針對這37位有申請的部分所以說不在這個申請範圍內的話那不當然可以是適用不當然但是大法官會議裡面有提阿他有提說其他非申請的案件亦可割案就緝阿那是割案就緝"},{"start":4548.078,"end":4573.646,"text":"那至於說這37位我們會盡快因為很多大部分都要經過那個檢察總長檢察總長去做斟酌審酌了以後認為有必要申請非常上訴才去那我們一定會盡速的來如果有盡速去檢視這些這個部分我想事實上我們還是希望說社會大家能夠清楚這個我們目前大法官所做的憲法判決"},{"start":4574.397,"end":4594.43,"text":"他裡面要求這個判處死刑的這個程序必須嚴謹嚴謹的過程跟這個我們現在社會上大家對於說對是否情節嚴重的判斷這部分可能在法感情上有落差因此在這幾天就有案件說哎呀這個情節非屬是不是屬最嚴重結果他的死刑"},{"start":4595.693,"end":4600.656,"text":"被改判無期徒刑定驗的爭執爭議它的關鍵點其實是在於就這個犯罪行為是否屬情節最重大的"},{"start":4611.323,"end":4617.424,"text":"相關的新政的問題跟社會上面法感情之間的落差這個一直都有這個問題就不要說判死刑這個你連詐欺案你連這個悲心罪你連這個這些的都會有這種法官所做判決他跟社會的這個法感情之間有落差這部分我希望能夠改善最後這個因為時間也到了最後就補充我個人認為非常重要的部分我希望司法院法務部跟這個衛福部能夠一起來研擬"},{"start":4639.028,"end":4663.255,"text":"就是因為我們這次新增了這個這個憲法判決之後新增了過去是只要你只有說你在行為時沒有這個這個這個必須身心狀態健全那這現在在審判中在甚至最後的受刑時你要有受刑的能力也就是說你被判死刑之後如果你在被判死刑之後才發瘋才心智上心神喪失那也不能執行這個部分這個部分"},{"start":4666.235,"end":4687.937,"text":"社會上最大的質疑就是說那我裝瘋賣傻就好啦我裝瘋賣傻我就不用執行死刑了那這個部分我想他就回歸到不管你是不是在死刑上面都一樣即使在刑違時也一樣現在目前是刑違時我只要裝瘋賣傻說我那時候是瘋的我就可以免除刑責嗎顯然不是因為我們有一套"},{"start":4689.028,"end":4702.238,"text":"有一套精神鑑定的流程但是我要在這裡提醒司法院、法務部這個憲判判決出來之後跟過去最大的差別是什麼"},{"start":4703.426,"end":4731.66,"text":"過去我精神科醫師我所做的這樣子的鑑定是針對你行為時的精神狀態做鑑定我鑑定出來你的精神狀態沒有問題跟你會不會判死刑跟你這個犯人會不會死沒有必然的關係因為你還必須接受後面的審判可能那時候還但是所謂受刑能力的鑑定他就直接牽涉了對我精神科醫生來講我鑑定你精神狀態健全你就要執行死刑"},{"start":4732.641,"end":4736.121,"text":"我我鑒定你精神狀態有問題你就可以不用執行死刑"},{"start":4738.947,"end":4761.235,"text":"這個對這個做精神鑑定的這個醫學倫理上面來講這是非常非常重大的挑戰這部分我希望說相關的規定我們這個司法院法務部司法院法務部跟衛福部我們必須要就這個新增的這個受刑能力的精神鑑定的部分做更嚴謹的相關的規定、客觀的規定好不好好 以上好 謝謝委員的這個關心好 謝謝 那請回"},{"start":4764.676,"end":4782.569,"text":"我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席,有請我們司法院代理秘書長,本房秘書長,還有我們法務部啊,我們政部長"},{"start":4788.004,"end":4808.075,"text":"秘書長還有我們部長早我想這個死刑到底要不要廢或者讓它繼續存在這個是一個世紀的爭論倒不是現在才凸顯出來我們去看到在今年憲判字第8號這樣的一個憲法法庭判決出來以後"},{"start":4812.668,"end":4831.514,"text":"社會輿論看起來是炸鍋我讓在場幾位的委員立場怎麼樣我相信大家都非常清楚我不認為這個是一個對錯的問題一個國家所採的憲政如果採的是一個立憲主義是一個憲政制度的話那你就必須要去肯認"},{"start":4833.253,"end":4856.609,"text":"憲法是一個拘束各個機關裡面的一部最高的一個法律那當然就是由大法官就是我們現在憲法法庭來做這一個解釋那我去看到本院的同仁也去提到說大法官解釋不一定能完全拘束立法院老實說我聽到這句話我是嚇出一身冷汗"},{"start":4857.409,"end":4872.689,"text":"我嚇出一身冷汗所以我要來就教我們司法院秘書長的其實我今天看這個答詢我看部長跟代理秘書長的答詢我看了以後我很想跟你們鼓掌你們立場本來就可以有所不同"},{"start":4874.022,"end":4890.816,"text":"本來就可以有所不同站在法務部的立場尤其是站在打擊犯罪第一線檢察官的一個立場他災間發福打擊重大的一個犯罪他本來就是有義務有責任來維護整個國家的一個法律的一個秩序他更嚴苛他甚至於認為說你這個罪犯"},{"start":4896.775,"end":4916.649,"text":"罪無可恕我覺得這個立場我都很可以接受但是站在司法院的立場的話你本來就是在做判決各級法院在做判決我要好好的去檢視你整個偵查階段或者依審判決你認識用法在採用這個證據有沒有任何瑕疵為師的地方如果說今天大家認為說這個很可惡"},{"start":4924.361,"end":4938.12,"text":"實行了很快我也知道這很快啊我也知道這很快啊但重點是說如果更站在各級法院的立場再去做證據做嚴格的一個一個檢視甚至於這一次憲判字第8號裡面講出來的其實"},{"start":4940.763,"end":4957.323,"text":"很多本院的委員認為說這個是實質上廢死我倒是不把它解讀說這個叫廢死啦是認為應該是各級法院或檢察官會認為說要讓這個被告來判處死刑更困難了這個我接受 這個我接受"},{"start":4959.727,"end":4967.393,"text":"我怎麼會不知道站在司法院或者大法官的一個立場裡面他們比較傾向於廢死的主張廢死我也不認為是一個罪惡喔我也認為這個是一個價值喔那但是這個社會以現在的氛圍可能大家認為說感動你感動得了但是去把整個法律正當程序去把它更嚴謹的話"},{"start":4983.817,"end":4992.972,"text":"本席是覺得是認同的喔站在法務部的立場比如說一個兇殺案發生連續殺死了好多人請勞官當然是具體把你給求刑阿"},{"start":4994.346,"end":5013.835,"text":"一審的法院尤其是一審的法院那個時候整個社會的氛圍一定是對他產生很大的一個壓力一審去判處死刑我覺得是很有可能的可是到了二審呢他在檢視法律的時候他看你偵查程序裡面或者認為說他好像還不用到死刑"},{"start":5015.928,"end":5040.364,"text":"想法會有所不同你是完全要讓他從這個社會裡面去把他讓他消失掉還是說讓他有機會重新再回到這個社會從來就是爭論從過去的犯罪學的那麼多學派裡面爭論你也找不到一致的一個答案我簡單講好了啦今天如果說底下有一個人去殺了好多人"},{"start":5042.284,"end":5047.366,"text":"碰到在檢察官偵查的時候或法案在審判的時候跟你說我錯了趕快讓我死吧這個符合民意的期待嗎像這種情況我都覺得太便宜他了我都認為你想死了就解脫我之所以死刑的存在就是要報復你啊我應該讓你生不如死才對啊所以我一直認為這個問題法務部沒錯"},{"start":5070.057,"end":5097.154,"text":"法務部更主張覺得什麼死刑廢除掉那整個社會的治安法律的一個秩序誰來維護法務部講到我的立場我就認為沒有不對喔但是司法院你再去做一個審量考量的話我也沒有我認為讓整個法律正當程序讓他更嚴謹這個也是對的喔所以我期許啊司法院你到立法院來啊就按照整個憲政的一個秩序啊我自己設計啊我也不好意思跟你說話說太多"},{"start":5099.124,"end":5125.076,"text":"你若無表現比較小,不然怎麼說?抬頭頂上,不卑不亢,這個才叫做法律人,這個沒有對錯。立法委員的質詢常常在呼應短期的民粹,所以那一把尺還是要堅持住。你像比如說,我們整個法律的一個規定就講得非常清楚,"},{"start":5126.629,"end":5152.383,"text":"你說到底這個整個憲法是國家誰最大當然憲法最大當然要拘束各個機關你去看看我們憲法第78條賦予整個我們現在大法官裡面他去解釋法律跟命令的一個義務那你如果說大法官在審查說到底這個法律合不合憲當然是大法官憲法法庭他是自己去做出獨立的一個判斷"},{"start":5153.527,"end":5157.433,"text":"那所以啊所以啊我在這個地方啊一直針對這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":5159.651,"end":5186.233,"text":"這次的憲判字做出來以後我也有很大的一個感慨你說4至185號裡面司法院解釋憲法他也明文講得很清楚居宿各機關的效力4至405號也講得很清楚表明很清楚立法權甚至於不能依約司法院所做的憲法上的一個解釋只是說本院立法院他在立法的時候我們有自然形成的這樣的一個自由我們該怎麼立法不是你司法院管得到的"},{"start":5186.934,"end":5209.949,"text":"但重點是說立出來的東西要接受到整個憲法法庭這都受到大法官我以前說叫大法官會議受到他的一個拘束這個是很明確的一個揭示啦除非我們不採立憲主義啦每一個國家採的制度不一樣啊你如果老共的地方什麼你憲法很大什麼你司法院什麼憲法法庭很大習近平最大帝制的時候就是皇帝講的最大"},{"start":5214.212,"end":5225.698,"text":"你說這有沒有什麼道理 這也沒道理啊這就制度有所不同啊各有所失 各失其職啊但我有幾個問題要來做一個請教啦就是說我們如果說真的要去採硬報的話那是不是你教育的部分都不用了如果全部要採硬報的話法務部也必須要去做思考啊那你監獄裡面的矯正的一個制度"},{"start":5242.386,"end":5257.831,"text":"那個觀念也會顛覆掉喔也會顛覆掉喔所以博定我知道你的立場這個法務部會有壓力司法院當然會有壓力但司法院都不應該有壓力司法院都不應該受到民粹的一個影響林本人就不應該啊這個制度是要可長可遠"},{"start":5264.707,"end":5279.606,"text":"很多立法院的委員他認為死刑怎麼可以把我給廢掉這樣的一個主張他其實利益也都良善喔利益也都良善喔我也不認為說死刑廢掉以後啊整個國家"},{"start":5280.807,"end":5297.138,"text":"好像這個社會秩序啊或者說整個治安全部都會崩垮掉很多替代方式啊我在講的啦我都一直想因為我很怕被人家講說我很不文明啊不然我就覺得死刑都太便宜了這一些所謂的犯罪行為人欸比如說叫我來做出一個判決的話這些人到底要不要判處死刑罪行非常重、非常可惡手段非常殘忍"},{"start":5310.199,"end":5328.585,"text":"啊真的他跟你說我真的好殘忍給我死吧你就真的叫我當法官我就讓你死哪那麼便宜你我就是讓你生不如死所以我這樣講也不代表我這個觀念有所不對啊每一個人對這一個罪行對他的厭惡度感受會不同法官也是人啊"},{"start":5334.195,"end":5350.861,"text":"法官當然也會有所不同所以我看到這個憲判字第8號我確實是感受到以後判處死刑會變更困難但是相對的也要讓你整個因為它是重罪人命確實是不可剝奪它很有可能一有閃失的話那確實不可恢復讓整個法律正當性更嚴謹我是覺得是好事但是法務部你也不用有壓力"},{"start":5363.311,"end":5367.975,"text":"今天我也不用有壓力啊我就把你具體抽取死刑啊我的立場哪有不對"},{"start":5369.369,"end":5383.596,"text":"我站在法務部長的立場哪有不對?我站在檢察官的立場哪有不對?你就是該死我檢察官本來就是要打擊犯罪可是站在法院的立場就覺得說你當初在社會案、刑案當下發生的時候社會那裡那麼轟動那大家怕也怕死社會老百姓這樣要求你嘛所以檢察官這樣去做是對的啊可是問題是說那法院呢?法院你說完全都是照著檢察官的那就不用審法院了,我們就都有檢察官就好了"},{"start":5397.068,"end":5414.717,"text":"所以我本來其實還要針對我們整個再審那個新事實新證據那個部分再跟你們來做一個探討但是今天我也不敢耽誤其他同仁的一個時間但是我倒覺得說在討論到底要不要讓它實行的時候其實"},{"start":5416.889,"end":5429.798,"text":"大家都說得利得好啦沒有壓力啦法務部你也沒有壓力啦大膽的講出你自己的想法啦我就是反對廢死啦法務部的立場也可以也很正常啦你站在司法院的立場我讓你整個法律程序更嚴謹這也都是合理的啦以上我不知道秘書長你有看到嗎簡單給我回應一下"},{"start":5436.783,"end":5439.264,"text":"所以憲法法庭其實他所做出來的判決他當然是拘束各個機關吧"},{"start":5456.98,"end":5473.168,"text":"當然,因為他是對憲法這個解釋,所有全國的各機關當然都要在憲法之下才能夠去行使職權。我們不用採立憲主義,可以不拘束啊,採帝制就可以不拘束啊,皇帝下個命令就可以啊。我給你簡單給他回應一下,好嗎?"},{"start":5493.477,"end":5494.184,"text":"在各單位開始會議"},{"start":5501.014,"end":5519.439,"text":"世紀的一個爭論的一個問題在社會產生波瀾很正常各有立場你們就好好去把它做堅持沒有人可以講你們對還是不對就是說理嘛就這麼簡單嘛你說在野黨的主張廢食的合不合理我也認為他講得非常有道理你要把它踩住的話你認為讓整個法律政策程序更嚴謹的話沒有什麼不對啦好不好一起加油啦"},{"start":5533.028,"end":5540.814,"text":"下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言那待會謝榮介委員發言完畢之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":5550.126,"end":5568.816,"text":"主席、在黨委員、監禁、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請司法院黃代理、秘書長以及法務部政部長還有衛福部的政代理市長市長委員好秘書長好、部長好、市長好秘書長"},{"start":5570.435,"end":5595.754,"text":"剛剛我很欽佩專委員所說的憲法第78條大法官的解釋是拘束最高的拘束你同意嗎?好那剛剛引述你剛剛的回答你認為這一次憲判的主要意旨是在嚴格嚴密宣判實行跟執行的這個程序是不是這樣?那他大法官的憲判有沒有宣告任何一條"},{"start":5597.228,"end":5616.599,"text":"規定死刑的條文是違憲的有沒有只有說300元在修法之前的348條唯一死刑的只有宣告說法條不可定唯一死刑但並沒有說法條定死刑是違憲所以從這個角度來講你認為如果簡單的解釋這次憲判有沒有去廢死"},{"start":5618.284,"end":5639.358,"text":"我們認為當然沒有廢時好那既然是這樣那我們剛剛聽到有位大委員不斷的對於憲判的意旨提出他個人的看法這裡我要表達我個人看法因為誠如剛剛莊委員所介入的不只是憲法第18條還有各項的憲法釋字的解釋其實立法院也是要遵守憲判跟大法院釋憲的決定對不對"},{"start":5641.179,"end":5665.964,"text":"那如果有不同意見是可以提出憲法訴訟那去跟大法官去辯論這也是我們過去在8月的時候憲法法庭看到的你也看到了嘛這個立法委員是可以以事先申請人或者訴訟相對人或關係人在憲法審判的時候憲法法庭開審的時候呢去對大法官進行延遲的交互辯論所以我們樂見呢如果有任何的不管職務上是不是立法委員"},{"start":5666.864,"end":5678.529,"text":"只要他認為他提出包括憲法訴訟他可以以相對人或關係人的身份去跟未來的大法官好好的談一下他對這次憲判要旨的不同意見"},{"start":5679.5,"end":5679.88,"text":"9月20號憲判第8號說"},{"start":5708.386,"end":5720.76,"text":"死刑事先後由兩位受死刑宣告的受刑人將可獲非常之上訴為什麼這兩位為什麼他可以馬上按麥克風"},{"start":5722.577,"end":5741.861,"text":"就是這兩位是因為那時候判決確定的時候星碼348他就是唯一死刑的秘書長所說的嘛那另外的35個人有沒有可能有機會提出非常上訴這部分我想總長在調卷有可能嘛有可能因為他們37個都有參與憲法訴訟他那個判他那個判的8號的判決是認為說他這個有那個心智缺陷"},{"start":5750.023,"end":5777.178,"text":"所以你認為有沒有可能全數都適用憲判意旨可以申請救濟呢?這部分還要帶檢討總長來好,這是檢討總長的權限那我們來看一下這次我們過去的死刑案件的執行流程可能這些被宣告死刑的受刑人他在被起訴前就被羈押了那目前他是在入監收容的情況未來在等候執行,是不是這樣?是好,那現在法務部呢如果檢討總長認為要提起非常上述以落實憲判的意旨那請問我們看到這個流程圖齁"},{"start":5779.119,"end":5808.536,"text":"那如果要提出非常上訴有可能這個會被駁回當然繼續收容對不對是但是有可能未來他如果進行這個非常上訴審理後發回更審就是准予撤銷原判決那法務部會促請他繼續羈押嗎對我們一定會一定會嘛一定會嘛至少這37個任何一個如果未來為了落實憲判意旨由總長認為他可以符合非常上訴提出了那那個"},{"start":5809.059,"end":5831.989,"text":"法院也接受撤銷員判決准予他發回更審那你們會促請積壓嗎?是不是這樣?這個我們要求在那個我們在那個最高法院的時候我們會促請那個會在建立法院最高法院要最高法院你要促請他積壓但他可能准報告的時候我們也是會要求你一定會這樣做但他也有可能駁回暫時釋放有可能嗎?有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":5833.103,"end":5851.842,"text":"如果有這個可能的話,我想我們會依照刑訴法416條,我們認為還是要抗告,如果說他不押。好,我了解。那我們來看一下,非常上訴之後,如果要發回更審,那麼法院在什麼情況之下可以羈押,一般就是一般羈押嘛,有逃亡之餘嘛,或者說他有反覆實施同一範圍行為,刑訴法101之1嘛,這兩種情況,"},{"start":5855.405,"end":5880.908,"text":"只要有這兩種情況,一定會促請法院羈押,是不是?這個我們會建立一定要羈押那如果到時候法院不予羈押,有沒有其他方法方式?如果說他那個,跟委員報告,如果說他那個這個有其他的圖形要執行,我們一定是先發指揮書,就直接就發件執行了吧就是說他除了死刑的判決,他還受其他的圖形的你會窮盡一切方式來防止他們"},{"start":5881.921,"end":5908.769,"text":"請問一下目前這37位受死刑宣告的受刑人大概受了什麼罪殺人、強盜殺人還有擄人勒贖其中有8位還涉及性侵殺人那請問一下根據保安處問執行法第4條法院可以對於應付監護、禁戒還有強制治療認為有緊急必要死請問緊急必要死誰要提出法院來認定誰要提出"},{"start":5909.844,"end":5935.624,"text":"你們認不認為這幾個可以透過包括《刑法第91條》之一性侵、強盜殺人、辱人、勒贖、可施以強制治療你們有主張這樣的可能性嗎目前現在還在他已經是在執行對我說未來如果說他的原判決被撤銷如果他非常上述成功原判決被撤銷他再暫行更審你們可以援引這《刑法第91條》之一要求致以強制治療嗎這是一個可行的途徑"},{"start":5941.213,"end":5965.305,"text":"我們是照那個憲法91條之1的規定來辦理是嗎 是可以嗎那如果是強制治療他就不能出來了嗎強制治療的話如果說法院有裁定強制治療當然一定要所以不一定羈押就算沒有准予羈押你們申請有緊急必要的時候你們提出根據91條之1也可以要求施以強制治療對不對這個法條規定是這樣的是這樣很好那我們再回到一個情況那現在大家爭議一個問題"},{"start":5966.405,"end":5980.317,"text":"那如果說有可能這些透過非常上述符合憲判意旨的他後來被改判為無期徒刑那麼社會上有一種呼聲說要讓他們不得假肆或者終身拘禁法務部的看法如何"},{"start":5982.684,"end":5996.582,"text":"若改判無期徒刑若說最高法院自我判決的話他馬上一判決就確定了我們就直接就法件執行了嗎是那如果無期徒刑他說有假設的規定大家的看法呢假設我們認為我們現在是研修我們認為"},{"start":5997.743,"end":6020.376,"text":"這個是屬於這個特殊性的一個憲法的判決是以前歷史上從來沒有的那我們有不一樣的思考我們也是應濟憲判的意思我們提出的一些的有要修法嗎要修我們原理性的要修類似這樣的你們會要求怎麼樣我們可能這部分我們研修我們認為是排除那個譬如說那個屬於最重要的故意殺人罪或殺人罪"},{"start":6021.056,"end":6022.859,"text":"如果未來修法也是在立法院"},{"start":6033.038,"end":6061.414,"text":"在修法通過之前好了修法通過之後現在這37位適不適用我們認為要重新適用要用新法來適用要以新法來適用也就是說如果說在他們在立法院修法照你的意思完成修法之前這37位有任何一位經過法委更審之後或判為無期徒刑那麼未來修法通過之後還是要適用修法那個新法是新法我們是要研修我們是比較你們是這樣主張的是不是我們是認為以適用新法的規定較為妥適"},{"start":6062.335,"end":6084.806,"text":"你們是那樣主張,也就是說未來無期徒刑不得假釋,如果這條法規、法條、修法上路了,那麼對於審判中的案子或者已經判決案子一起施用,這個姿勢的制度還是認為新法,我們認為就還合理。好,我了解你的態度,就剛剛莊委員說的,你可以有所立場有所表達,但是我們大家一起來討論好不好,往下看。那麼現在如果判無期徒刑,那什麼這37位假設,"},{"start":6086.741,"end":6106.159,"text":"受刑宣告：受無期徒刑：後來重新受無期徒刑宣告：他可以：過去這段時間的收容：可以扣抵刑期嗎因為這些人很多被壓很久了目前的話：跟委包目前是：要執行25年才達到假釋的門檻那這些37個人當中有沒有已經在執行執行前已經被"},{"start":6106.94,"end":6130.171,"text":"收容很久了這個收容是很久但是我們是反對我們是不認為這個不能抵扣那必須從他假設後來被宣告無期徒刑從執行開始才起算過去的不算我們認為是不算的你們認為是不算的那個收容的期限是不能折抵收容期限不能算必須從重新判決宣告無期徒刑開始執行才算對不對對"},{"start":6130.911,"end":6156.073,"text":"好那就是執行的問題那執行的問題這裡面呢我們看到假釋的規定包括有憲法第17條有圈毀實據的有圈毀實據的才可能可以申請而且監獄刑刑法這是你們主管的你們來審查的你們要從嚴審核有重大暴力的就不可以重大危害的也不可以出獄後會引發社會不安的也不可以這些從嚴審查的權利是不是在你們法務部手上"},{"start":6157.703,"end":6183.815,"text":"對 這個是由根據《建立憲法第116條》的規定以及受刑人假釋實施辦法第3條的規範來做一個你們有權利來決定判斷對不對這部分我們是不是請那個講完我繼續問嘛繼續問嘛那你怎麼判斷有圈毀實據強盜殺人等案件是不是應該從嚴審查這是政策你可以回答我想直接從政策面不從執行面我們是要求從嚴審核"},{"start":6184.835,"end":6209.555,"text":"就是這三個條件要重新審查那個跟委員報告齁從95年執行這個新制以來齁我們這個這個還沒有這些還沒有這些人沒有從來沒有符合假釋規定的你們重新審查好那這個就是社會在看因為社會對目前已經宣告執行的這37位的受刑人他很關注也對於未來如果有機會他們獲得會商上訴未來的重新"},{"start":6210.24,"end":6237.815,"text":"更審或判決,大家也在關注未來他們是否在繼續監獄裡面繼續受刑也非常關注,好,我們往下看但是有一個問題啊判決一旨呢,宣判8的主文當中他說受死刑是預知者,就算這些受死刑預知有精神障礙或是確認,剛剛我們的審委員問過了你要由精神科醫師來做精神鑑定,他可以申請嗎?這些受死刑勸告的受刑人可以主動申請如果來鑑定受刑能力,他們有沒有權利?這37位有沒有權利?"},{"start":6240.183,"end":6266.973,"text":"他們可以主張他們可以主張那誰來去找精神科醫師幫他們做判斷我想這個是屬於那個行為那個審理中這部分一個是審理一個是授刑授刑跟審理都一樣我現在談的是授刑來我們請那個心理那個行為師市長您覺得站在醫界的立場來講心理界精神醫師會接受這樣的委託來判斷授死刑宣告授刑人一旦他"},{"start":6267.625,"end":6276.019,"text":"沒有精神上的障礙可受死刑的獸刑你們會醫師能夠說他現在是符合獸刑的能力你們會有找到這樣醫師嗎"},{"start":6277.586,"end":6304.453,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在精神科醫師接受這個鑑定的嘱托要不就是法院來嘱托那是審理中的受審能力嘛要不就是檢察官來嘱托那就是說看行為之後有沒有行為能力那我們的精神科醫師最主要是利用他的醫學專業的知識如果是在這個行為史的話就看他當下的程度是不是有精神障礙我如果是精神科醫師涉及到行為史有沒有能力"},{"start":6305.333,"end":6326.568,"text":"那因為後來怎麼判是法院的事情嘛所以精神科醫師敢判他行為時有沒有精神上的障礙有沒有行為能力他的審判時、受審時有沒有受審能力能不能理解現在在審理什麼那個精神科醫師有沒有掛礙因為最後的結果不知道但是一旦結果知道就做死刑宣告你一旦認定他有受刑能力無精神障礙有受刑能力"},{"start":6328.895,"end":6337.462,"text":"認定有受刑能力的時候他要執行死刑喔你覺得作為一個醫師來講他能夠做出這樣的一個能承受這樣的壓力做出這樣的決定嗎"},{"start":6338.79,"end":6365.318,"text":"有關於這個執行時這個個案到底有沒有受刑的能力的話其實這個部分的鑑定精神科醫師最主要是說要去鑑定這個個案他是不是能夠理解死刑的判決的理由跟執行他到底了不了解這個部分所以我們的精神科醫師主要是在鑑定這個部分就是說他理解這個受刑是基於什麼理由他理解他理不理解如果他被關到老人室他不能理解那就永遠不能受刑是這樣嗎"},{"start":6367.078,"end":6393.045,"text":"我們精神科醫師最主要是提供他的醫學的專業的知識謝謝市長不為難你部長瞭解了現在憲判的意旨我們要落實因為大法官的權威的解釋我們行政機關、立法機關受其拘束但是執行的時候會發生這些問題要預為籌謀好不好是最後有兩個部分請主席再給我一點時間各國的執行狀況目前我們所瞭解的完全廢死的有佔百分之將近六成112個國家"},{"start":6395.365,"end":6405.371,"text":"最近5年無執行的是23個國家佔12%保留也就是說目前雖然沒有執行死刑但是過去5年有執行死刑的台灣目前是在哪一個位置"},{"start":6407.947,"end":6432.654,"text":"台灣現在是在這55啦簡單講完全廢死的將近6成國家將近6成沒有完全廢死的呢有將近4成台灣是在這4成對不對對好那我們來看一下那這是國家來看喔但是我們來看一下大多數人援引的美國各州的死刑各州因為美國這50個州完全廢死的是藍色的有23個州不到一半已經停止的呢有3個州"},{"start":6434.034,"end":6455.058,"text":"保留的是紅色的24個州換言之在美國以各州的立法來講不到一半是廢死其他超過一半還是有死刑的存在這你瞭解嗎?這瞭解那你們有沒有去做過調查研究這些跟台灣處境相同的美國各州或世界各國他們對於本席剛剛所提出的問題他們採取什麼樣的做法?"},{"start":6455.758,"end":6472.78,"text":"跟委員報告根據這個問題我們已經有委託研究了有委託研究了好那就是我要問最後一個問題了請法務部跟司法院也配套研究這主要國家的法律制度包括美國的各州包括對於受死刑宣告者受刑能力的精神鑑定他們如何處理"},{"start":6473.737,"end":6474.057,"text":"這部分我們是"},{"start":6500.266,"end":6512.211,"text":"這個我們再跟他們再溝通我要求要包含這三個問題因為這涉及到我們要落實憲判8號的意旨以及我們要了解社會要求安定的這樣的民心向背我們希望什麼時候可以提出來?你們的委託什麼時候可以好?"},{"start":6520.458,"end":6544.846,"text":"現在我們是委託那個大學機構在做報告在年底的話他們可以提出期末報告什麼時候?年底年底好年底齁我們想社會都期待我們希望呢在這段時間社會數目大法官是憲判第8號的決策的意思的內容的時候相關要落實的法條相關要進行的配套以及考慮到社會人心的安定的問題我們希望你們盡快把這樣的一個必須的配套"},{"start":6545.286,"end":6557.86,"text":"做跨國比較跟美國各州研究提出一個你要能夠符合台灣社會情境的要求的一個配套好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝那我們下一位請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":6579.291,"end":6590.16,"text":"主席我請秘書長好 麻煩秘書長委員好秘書長好早這幾個大法官很落差想要復讀私刑還沒勇氣變歸變歸就是實質費事了"},{"start":6605.379,"end":6608.762,"text":"設一個頂端的關卡設備的關卡你要走走到擔當要捍衛司法的正義要有勇氣承擔你做到大法官你就沒有勇氣承擔啊怎麼?要叫在這裡法官承擔嗎?要叫檢察官承擔嗎?所以這個司法的正義啊在他們的手啊揮霉大陣拔擦了"},{"start":6638.08,"end":6639.621,"text":"你覺得一樣,你又聽不懂聽說你要下車啊逆行調動啊逆行調動秘書長先下車,你後面還要對著下車啊實在有違規啦春秋的違國啊這個翁孫駕啊在問控署問控署說我們這樣一記不二啊"},{"start":6666.004,"end":6676.169,"text":"那麼2月1日,這是在說什麼?控署公說,沒有喔,不是這樣,不然啦,卻做一天無四度,上天害你,逆輪殺人,還要機台發熱給他運燈!世間惡事的事情,求處理!什麼叫做匪徒私刑?你這就是實質,已經匪死了!"},{"start":6696.127,"end":6699.129,"text":"若要像你現在設的這樣 這37個都不會死若要教育的解說 我不是中港太郎的 那個政界也不會死所以這個大家發光 靠比早期集團一樣比早期集團更加嚴重 要有勇氣 要有勇氣 要有承擔 會對人不可以好處的事情"},{"start":6724.5,"end":6728.061,"text":"你就把它解說出來嘛!把私刑匯讀就好了嘛!但怎麼記不上它?沒意義啊!它叫憲法議制啊!就是說反而最嚴重的那個反刑啊!而且符合最嚴密的法律定義耶!這樣就可以判私刑對不對?是不是啊?是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!是!"},{"start":6756.079,"end":6773.126,"text":"有嚴重嗎?感受最嚴重的反應?故意煞零?故意煞零,就剛才說的這議制還要進行,要進一步去分析,發生什麼情況,我就去調各個情況。照你的意思,這是調供台詩人,又不叫做嚴重就對了?"},{"start":6775.049,"end":6780.932,"text":"喔 你的意思就是這樣嘛殺人還有很多種這種情形啦有時候他是防衛或者是各種情形什麼行為啦叫做最嚴重的反應"},{"start":6788.955,"end":6800.964,"text":"那大法官當然的理由來這裡有歷史歸咎 蓄意連續殺人吼 無差別殺人他要說出來啊他的理由裡面有歷史歸咎 他的理由就對了吼 如果像他這樣啦你若不是故意的 那個政界都要打死啦台師死的人 他只要出庭的時候說我不是中邪的啊我沒想要給死啦 開始要告別人他們都死"},{"start":6817.881,"end":6841.19,"text":"這樣他就不能判死刑了對不對?是不是這樣?大概不會說當事人他這樣說,我看當然就這樣猜啦我看要尊重所有這裡的政府我不是故意的啊我臨時去的啊,在這文章那裡臨時的啊我沒有要給死捏最後他死,我怎麼辦法呢?只有現在的改水,這樣整個就不用死了啦"},{"start":6847.059,"end":6856.362,"text":"啊 實在說 我說你沒用去嘛你解說到不得不去嘛 你當作這裡的大餐不菜 反腐糟糗 大家都看不見你民的憤怒嘛你傷害兩千三百五十萬人的感情嘛 死亡感情嘛 正義的感情嘛比如說 你敢拿這三十七個就對了齁 他們都犯什麼罪給我們判死刑的"},{"start":6877.083,"end":6882.445,"text":"他們裡面就包括271條、348條 共通都是有故意殺人啦!經濟性高就在3年啦!"},{"start":6882.445,"end":6883.125,"text":"因為台人怕崩潰再來羅馬啦!"},{"start":6883.125,"end":6883.225,"text":"窮仔出宅啦!"},{"start":6883.225,"end":6884.446,"text":"怕3年脫票啦!這的人這樣沒嚴重?"},{"start":6884.446,"end":6884.546,"text":"這這樣有嚴重嗎?"},{"start":6906.271,"end":6907.092,"text":"檢察總長你不用拔整層 我跟你說 你這個剛好當機檢到頭做那個人你覺得這37個裡面最嚴重 台師最多的什麼人你知道嗎"},{"start":6936.391,"end":6937.792,"text":"有一個五個啦 辦會的 憲法法庭這個辦會首四五個 喔 但我看在他判決的理由說什麼呢 他說這就要直接告議 或是第一告議 殺人 這樣你比較有辦法 這樣才可以判處極刑就對了 喔"},{"start":6963.937,"end":6972.964,"text":"若是間接故意的或是說我不是故意的臨時把你判給死的臨時把你抬給死的這樣都不能判死刑 這樣不是這樣嗎我請教你 你法律施法更多這樣你施法有多一篇的學術和理論主張這種的 就是說"},{"start":6991.431,"end":6991.992,"text":"有哪一篇論文有這樣寫嗎?"},{"start":7006.089,"end":7025.045,"text":"報告啊,這大法官的這個判決,我們當然所...小法...我們一般的法官當然都是要尊重所以待會我講幾次他們講,他們講的他們對就對了啊啊立法院委員這裡講的都講危險啊啊就要選到他們那不是他們講的我們對的我現在請教你啊,他解釋這樣啊對不對全世界有做一個發展,做一本論文說這樣如果說是3期3年啦齁"},{"start":7035.731,"end":7042.033,"text":"那麼被告我主動說 我就沒準備 我沒準備要跟他談 我不是有無的這樣被告就不會死了我相信 還是跟委員報告吧 被告當然在訴訟中他都會這樣去說沒有啦 這樣有利沒有啦 就是說因為台灣已經解釋這樣 以你的司法經驗跟你性愛這麼優秀的表現 這樣有利嗎 有合理嗎"},{"start":7063.781,"end":7068.666,"text":"你既然說施行是合憲嘛,那這樣以這種解說有沒有合理?報告,剛才說主任有他的理由啦,他考慮他們當然,討論大法院做成的過程中,都斟酌了很多的這些的相關的這些意見。這些人的判決啦齁,你像那個勞資委員講到那裡,把那個勞資,去採取那裡買菜回來。"},{"start":7087.779,"end":7095.183,"text":"講到這裏把他抱到頭上這樣 吹奄奄 腦袋這樣流出來 還把他強姦 還把他殺人 還把他搶劫這個狗尾我怎麼不會死啊 招待我高的胖子 我這個不會死啊阿去美國留學 那十年了 跟他們男朋友圍著他們老伯 不敢嫁錢啊 這樣而已啊講到這裏還要把他們老伯抱好死"},{"start":7118.191,"end":7125.356,"text":"齁 這也不會死啦 做大法官的解說 這都不會死啦 台師弟兄的尊卿相 完全沒人性最好說我不是故意的 白色老白色弟 求我們的法律給他運動我們的大法官就是說 這死刑 死刑犯 殺人犯 愛護人權 但是勒"},{"start":7146.204,"end":7149.529,"text":"這無期徒刑、有期徒刑的人不用有領款,他不用一地關的。為什麼?白色人身的自由就沒有重要。白色生命很重要,這有領款的問題。白色一個人、一世人的自由,沒有領款的問題嘛。"},{"start":7163.783,"end":7180.034,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為施行執行之後是沒有辦法挽回的齁那其他的這些自由行無期徒刑如果發現事後發現有錯還是有救的那最近最典型各位可以看到其他國家都最近齁一二三都破施行結果還有罪過的人發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮發揮"},{"start":7191.929,"end":7208.898,"text":"所以到4天了,今天4星了,4天再跟佛父祈禱營,這樣你們就爽啦,你們就不安逸啊,台灣國家也不安逸嘛,這樣不是這樣嗎?這樣不是傷害台灣的司法正義,不是傷害人民對司法最好的期待的感情嗎?感冒?你看我咧?"},{"start":7214.966,"end":7243.192,"text":"這是社會可以去仔細去反思跟斟酌的啦剛才也有委員講到世界上面這麼多的這些國家我想我們也不會說這些國家通通都沒有司法正義啦那大法官解釋憲法出來我想大家都應該要尊重刑事訴訟法啦齁修法是不是個人的這款跟委員報告是是不是我們控議中的這款"},{"start":7244.445,"end":7248.127,"text":"發言的質詢是?這八檔一大堆都在忙什麼八檔啊他都在思念什麼金利塔的訴訟,這好像是蔣才在念的啊再來啊,要去鑑定啊結果你們給這八檔來這所有的破罐都在違憲中執行破罐他這八檔在做什麼?"},{"start":7272.247,"end":7272.267,"text":"這兩人對這37個"},{"start":7297.677,"end":7300.758,"text":"因為大法官這一次解釋很明確啦,我想應該不會那麼久"},{"start":7322.998,"end":7328.52,"text":"你把這兩天 法務部就這兩天這37天 整個你就都不會吸一口你說他們覺得說 這樣他可以去理解他要去執行嗎我告訴你 這個人很聰明 他知道他如果沒做他會死 所以他們都很清楚為什麼不能執行"},{"start":7346.688,"end":7355.25,"text":"他如果知道說就要去再審 要知道說要去提出這個非常嚴肅 啊如果沒有 忘了就要判斷他我對這次憲法法庭的判官 我是被記者很多名義給我很多壓力 說他們真失望 真失望台灣走到這個時候"},{"start":7375.575,"end":7390.58,"text":"不是不能修啊不是不能廢啊但是你還把社會講到大家感情上可以同意你還有這37個都做歹死61個人這61個人的生命比他們白色的時候還有人替這61個人說他們的靈魂受到極度的傷害結果反倒大家都要做聖靈不能夠歹死"},{"start":7404.739,"end":7412.904,"text":"這咱簽書兩公約．對人權生命的百端．要用最嚴格．來面對．我可以答應你．我也可以同情你．也可以理解你．但是當社會．這生命的百姓生命一條一條去往百姓的時候．你敢不敢出來講這個．敢不．這15個大法官敢不出來講這個．"},{"start":7436.024,"end":7437.505,"text":"重心比心嘛這37個喔 看要打死幾個 我跟你講 平時受傷法 要緊傷了主席 我跟你講 這如果沒傷了 就一人打不死 沒一人可以執行的你們現在就變鬼變怪 都用幾多機卡 你們扯得太多啦 換入白手吧啦"},{"start":7461.007,"end":7467.571,"text":"這就是民進黨復讀施行大來的效益症當然復民進黨也有人支持復讀施行不是這個時候啦不是出息出卻啦"},{"start":7491.613,"end":7494.214,"text":"回去跟大法官講一下 跟你們議長講一下拜託他要立規進行要求 整天 緊縮 在半天內 把刑事訴訟法的手法送進來本議 這樣好不好我們會盡快 我跟你說半天已經很久了 有辦法嗎"},{"start":7516.892,"end":7529.396,"text":"我們當然會盡快因為也牽涉到其他部會的是相關的這些規定我們要跟他發言秘書長告訴阿哥在閃阿哥在拖阿哥在按摩這3年份我們一定盡快我們盡量那我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":7547.243,"end":7548.732,"text":"五分鐘準時到我們就開始"},{"start":7875.811,"end":7875.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":7893.515,"end":7920.611,"text":"兩位早安大家辛苦了我想尊重憲法法庭的判決快速的啟動修法的配套不只是司法院或是法務部更是立法院我們共同的責任我也要在這裡非常清楚的再一次藉由我質詢的時間來做非常完整的一個說明並沒有廢死而是慎死"},{"start":7921.502,"end":7943.279,"text":"也就是憲法法庭的宣判並沒有廢除死刑而是未來在判決審議死刑的過程更要嚴謹更要審慎所以沒有廢死是要慎死這個立場我們要非常清楚的向社會說明下一頁"},{"start":7944.9,"end":7971.439,"text":"我非常不樂見操作憲法判決的結果作為阻擋我們憲法法庭大法官人事同意權的一個工具其實當我們看到在野黨的委員在死刑何限與否的憲判還沒有出爐前就已經進行政治的操作"},{"start":7972.199,"end":7992.959,"text":"甚至藍營的委員一開始就表達如果死刑違憲就要封殺大法官的人事同意權我想這是非常不宜的但是在920當天憲判的結果出爐死刑合憲"},{"start":7994.66,"end":8013.672,"text":"國民黨團第一時間的記者會的回應是正面的感謝大法官聽見人民的聲音但是隨後國民黨黨中央改口了改變立場了藍白立場每天不一樣黨與黨團不同調"},{"start":8018.177,"end":8045.236,"text":"所以說我們都不樂見憲法的判決法律的專業不要淪為政治操作的工具更不要因此來阻卻大法官、立法院依憲法依應行使同意權我們的憲法忠誠義務下頁我想問一下代理秘書長過去到現在自從2003年大法官同意權改由立法院來行使之後有沒有發生過嚴當"},{"start":8048.298,"end":8070.788,"text":"據審大法官人事同意權的案例有沒有發生過據審或延宕?沒有唯一一次還不是據審也沒有延宕喔是2007年阿扁執政的末期提名的大法官裡頭有4位被提名人被國民黨多數否決"},{"start":8072.284,"end":8090.546,"text":"被否決也只能尊重所以在新任接任的馬英九總統任內重新補題國會重新審查行使同意權大法官憲法法庭可以如常運作沒有癱瘓"},{"start":8091.847,"end":8110.442,"text":"所以從過去到現在沒有任何一次大法官人事同意權發生過國會聚審然後延宕然後沒有辦法履行大法官的職責癱瘓了憲法法庭Never Never Never我們希望不要發生"},{"start":8111.789,"end":8135.893,"text":"更不應當因為一些政治事件或者是對於某一個憲判不接受不同意然後就來背個人事同意權我想這是我們共同的立場我有看到民眾黨委員發函要求大法官要填他們所謂的回填這些意見徵詢表但是呢"},{"start":8140.531,"end":8164.625,"text":"這當中的意見徵詢如果是正向的溝通對話理解彼此的理念這沒有問題但是如果涉及提問的內容攸關現在事件中的違憲審查條文我想這就大大不妥了所以我看到我們幾位大法官被提名的人有提出一個共同的說明也就是"},{"start":8166.467,"end":8184.762,"text":"為方便也為利於立法院行使統一權相關的簡歷自傳著作財務狀況各項資料依法皆已提交立法院來說明被提名人的個人學識專長從事法律相關的歷練參與釋憲以及憲法訴訟的相關經驗"},{"start":8190.306,"end":8203.716,"text":"當然包括對於憲法秩序人權保障的價值理念都已經完備的提供國會也已經公開上網了所以我個人是支持我們大法官的人事同意權一"},{"start":8205.802,"end":8221.391,"text":"現有的法律的授權依程序來行使．如果個別政黨去行使了所謂的意見徵詢．但是提問的內容已經僭越了憲判審議中．"},{"start":8222.312,"end":8223.793,"text":"回到今天主題"},{"start":8249.039,"end":8277.375,"text":"死刑何限但是要限縮使用就是我說的沒有廢死但是要慎死所以說我們接軌了國際的公約兩公約是馬英九前總統簽署的我們也落實了憲法保障人民生命權的重要的精神大法官做出這樣一個憲判的結果我們予以尊重但是下一頁國會的工作是什麼"},{"start":8278.456,"end":8293.743,"text":"法務部的工作是什麼?司法院的挑戰是什麼?刑法、刑訴法、法院組織法、監獄刑刑法的配套都要趕快提出是不是我們已經組成了一個應變小組來進行所有修法的工作?部長跟委員報告我們有成立一個應變的一個小組那我們也根據這些憲判例子我們就刑法跟監獄刑刑法我們已經研擬那個草案條文了"},{"start":8308.156,"end":8324.75,"text":"剛剛有委員說他打賭了你們一定搶在最後兩年壓線才提出意思是能拖就拖能言就言會這樣嗎你們應當即刻的現在法務部相關的法律條文有應變小組也應當準備的差不多吧"},{"start":8329.877,"end":8353.744,"text":"所以法務部的條文基本上大致ready了動作很快但是後續送行政院之後有政委行政院院會還要會嫌司法院如果我在這裡預測時程加快加速的話這個會期或是下個會期應當立法院就可以來行使相關修法配套的工作吧"},{"start":8355.097,"end":8356.819,"text":"我個人對於尊重憲判的結果我的三大主張"},{"start":8382.501,"end":8406.17,"text":"第一個我們依舊要避免冤獄的產生第二我們要全面的建制完備制度來防堵犯罪人逃避刑責第三我們要即刻來推動無期徒刑假釋制度層級化我在你們的報告當中看到這是你們已經在進行研議的工作下一頁"},{"start":8407.23,"end":8424.585,"text":"我還是要提一提喔37名的死刑就案啊社會有一種風氣或一種以而傳而的擔心這個憲判之後後續的處置他們可能重新審議非常上述或者如何如何可能被放了有可能嗎部長"},{"start":8428.269,"end":8455.09,"text":"我們非常關注這個問題齁那這個死刑犯會不會放出去因為這牽扯到還是一些的法律上的一個一個的我們在我們認為現在在收容中就是不能夠折抵刑期据或保安處分另外其實我沒反對是進入假釋的門檻那個期間所以我們這部分我們是是有修法在監禁期間我們要修法來來做這樣的一個一個一個"},{"start":8457.412,"end":8461.953,"text":"所以絕對不會有現在就在擔心或者是謠傳37名死刑救案有兩案可以提非常上訴有三案也因為他審判期間的精神障礙心智缺陷也可以非常上訴其他32案一併都要審酌提起非常上訴但是無論如何都不會有現在就被釋放的這種狀況發生嗎"},{"start":8487.031,"end":8504.825,"text":"在那個有提起回廠上訴在確定判決還沒有撤銷以前都是屬於縮容的狀態是的所以大家不用擔心因為我時間到了我後面有一些修法的部分沒有辦法來論述但無論如何立法院同樣有責任"},{"start":8505.546,"end":8527.92,"text":"我們要向社會清楚的來說明沒有廢死而是在法律的程序要更為嚴謹所有的修法配套請司法院請法務部包括我們自我要求立法院越快越好希望這個會期可以來審查或是下個會期來全力推進完備配套謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員欸 部長剛剛委員問東尼達西欸"},{"start":8534.804,"end":8543.359,"text":"他問東你打西,他問說會不會放出來你跟他扯說收容這個不紀錄,你們到底在講什麼?你不能問東打西啊,你這是怎樣?"},{"start":8546.032,"end":8546.752,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8566.698,"end":8567.339,"text":"小強委員在等了啦 謝謝主席"},{"start":8586.015,"end":8606.686,"text":"司法院秘書長不能藐視我們的立法委員啦好不好麻煩你要對問題去回答他剛問你說是不是三七個有被放出來的可能然後你跟他在答說收容記不記錄刑期這個我們雖然都姓吳齁但是那個好沒關係我跟你講不然我等一下我就問你這個對啦您等一下可以繼續問嘛謝謝主席接下來我們請羅委員"},{"start":8619.11,"end":8645.075,"text":"有請司法院代理秘書長還有曾部長建立民意就是違憲大法官做出實質廢死的憲法判決就是違憲我在這邊要做出三點宣示"},{"start":8646.206,"end":8671.649,"text":"第一個 我不會配合 踐踏八成反廢死民意踐踏法官審判權踐踏立法權的大法官的實質廢死憲法判決我不會配合他們的要求修法我不會做大法官實質廢死的幫兇這是我第一個聲明"},{"start":8672.95,"end":8698.887,"text":"第二聲明我也呼籲所有的立法委員勇敢站出來捍衛民意捍衛憲法尊嚴捍衛法院審判權捍衛立法權拒絕當大法官實質廢死的幫兇拒絕配合大法官做實質廢死的修法第三點我也呼籲全台灣的民眾眼睛睜大看著"},{"start":8699.847,"end":8720.527,"text":"哪一個立法委員要配合大法官實質廢死進行修法他就是今天殺害所有無辜善良百姓然後傷害我們被害者家屬這些兇手的同路人這是我要做的三點宣示我反對廢除實刑"},{"start":8724.161,"end":8748.762,"text":"我在我的立法委員選舉當中我也把反對廢除死刑列為我的政見而我的對手今天是把要支持廢除死刑當作他的政見在大安區我贏了所以我身上肩負反對廢死的名義我必須站在這邊為反對廢除死刑來發聲我雖然反對廢除死刑"},{"start":8753.393,"end":8772.693,"text":"但是如果台灣人民透過民主程序透過公民投票透過國會立法決定要廢除實行我尊重我反對但我尊重但我絕對沒有辦法接受今天大法官為了迎合民進黨的廢死黨綱"},{"start":8776.991,"end":8802.365,"text":"開巧門見他名義然後呢用所謂的濫用大法官的視線來去做實質廢死的一個宣判我沒有辦法接受所以接下來我就要問問剛剛我們的中線主席來問今天我們的部長我來問部長你沒有回答的問題我幫吳思堯追問"},{"start":8805.083,"end":8824.498,"text":"你剛剛說什麼啊你剛剛說什麼啊你剛剛說他問你喔那37個人會不會放出來你怎麼回答你給我打什麼看守不記錄期間沒有我問得更精確一點好不好請問最高檢提出非常上訴如果法院撤銷死刑的確定判決的時候人會不會放出來夠具體了吧不要再迴避了吧跟委員報告齁"},{"start":8833.035,"end":8860.395,"text":"那個最高法院在就撤銷那個原確定死刑的判決你不用重塑我的問題啦人會不會放出來我就問你到現在都不願意回答這個會不會放這個是我們建立我們會建立要法官要做一個羈押你建議他要羈押就代表不會放啦你好偉大我問你下一個問題請問你賴清德的晚餐吃什麼你能不能決定"},{"start":8862.315,"end":8888.808,"text":"你能不能決定耐心的吃什麼晚餐?你能不能決定?你能決定嗎?部長?這個我沒辦法決定當然不能決定啦請問要不要羈押誰決定啊?答對了!就我要問旁邊啦他能保證不羈押嗎?秘書長、代理秘書長我只問你他能保證不羈押嗎?"},{"start":8891.823,"end":8914.91,"text":"他能保證不羈押嗎 第三度問你 不要再躲了 他不能保證 對不對答對了嘛 那剛吳少問那麼多 害我們主席這麼生氣 就是你迴避問題阿我直接跟你講 37個最高然後非常上訴 如果撤銷死刑的判決 非常非常可能 37個就放出來了"},{"start":8916.499,"end":8939.652,"text":"我跟你講就是有可能你能報告你秘書長都不能約束法院判決不是嗎?你還建議羈押勒你直接建議戴希德吃什麼晚餐好了所以我要跟各位講這事情嚴重到什麼程度為什麼我們沒有辦法接受到現在民進黨跟我們講說沒有實質廢食阿我告訴你就是實質廢食我們等著看來我跟你講"},{"start":8940.95,"end":8946.894,"text":"我告訴你會不會改成所謂的這個撤銷死刑的確定判決會不會你們要回答啦對不對部長非常上述這種法院會不會撤銷死刑判決啊 確定判決啊這個是屬於個案的非常好你們要保證啊我告訴你就是會撤銷啦你要不要試試看有很多被撤銷我告訴你現在就一個被撤銷的來我問你喔"},{"start":8970.663,"end":8977.205,"text":"我們有一位曾經奪獅奪獎的女教師她被一個流性嫌犯10年前殺害你知道吧部長用什麼東西兇器用鐵鎚劫財性侵咬掉她的身體用鐵鎚殘忍的擊殺她"},{"start":8992.25,"end":9016.978,"text":"我想請問你 你知道他的確定的死刑的他的死刑判決被確定撤銷了吧現在已經所謂的免判死確定了 對不對我檢察官都是自始自終就是求出死刑 這個立場我沒有在怪你檢察官 我要告訴你是什麼不用跳問 我要讓秘書長 我覺得秘書長回答比較誠懇一點所以就看媒體上報道 確實是"},{"start":9017.881,"end":9038.555,"text":"我告訴你 最高法院直接告訴我啊最高法院直接跟大家講為什麼多次宣判死刑的這個凶嫌 最後被免死確判因為最高法院跟我們講 根市審判決嚴格秉持憲法法庭死刑判決意旨"},{"start":9040.619,"end":9068.638,"text":"認為今天這叫偶發性犯罪不是預謀犯罪認為不是犯罪最嚴重的情節之罪他就是根據大法官憲法判決宣布他免死的這37個都會一樣我告訴你你等著看吧連還沒有開始的司法判決已經受影響了你要跟我講說建議大法官不要羈押有用嗎"},{"start":9070.287,"end":9072.387,"text":"部長!有用嗎?有用嗎?沒有用啦!沒有用啦!我想問一下部長,問問我們的秘書長不是預謀犯案啊!如果有一個拿著機關槍在路上掃射"},{"start":9099.119,"end":9099.299,"text":"這個是隨機殺人"},{"start":9126.601,"end":9143.489,"text":"他也不是預謀故意殺啊那照這個邏輯今天隨機殺人就不嚴重啊所以大法官鼓勵大家沒有關係我今天齁我只要沒有特定想殺誰我到街上齁拿著大關刀狂砍都沒事啊我不知道會不會這樣判但是今天"},{"start":9150.285,"end":9173.975,"text":"這位獅奪獎的女老師一生作譽英才善善良良本本分分的做人得到社會的肯定拿到了獅奪獎她冤不冤阿兩位她冤不冤阿她有多冤阿犯罪不是罪情節的嚴重之罪劫財嚴不嚴重性侵嚴不嚴重"},{"start":9178.052,"end":9180.334,"text":"咬掉他身體的部位嚴不嚴重?虐殺他嚴不嚴重?跟我講不嚴重跟我講可教化結束了所以今天為什麼在這邊我們非常沉痛民進黨一直在講大法官沒有廢死啊前面吳世良在講啊沒有實質廢死啊"},{"start":9208.001,"end":9232.736,"text":"我就請部長 剛剛卓榮泰在我總質詢不敢保證 不知道部長能不能保證 什麼叫實質廢死當然一個死刑犯都沒被執行算不算實質廢死 一個都不被執行 這標準夠簡單了吧請問秘書長 賴理秘書長到最後一個死刑犯都沒被執行 就叫實質廢死我告訴你 我直接跟各位再度保證一次 民進黨歡迎打我的臉"},{"start":9234.418,"end":9240.94,"text":"賴清德在2028年5月19號卸任之前不會執行任何死刑啊打我臉啊 歡迎啊 期待啊拜託啊 懇求啊 跪求啊賴清德 法務部打我的臉啊你不要講還沒有被定讞的判決 現在被判決很難啊連這個斯多獎女士"},{"start":9264.721,"end":9291.767,"text":"都直接到最高法院直接講就是因為大法官他直接說這最高法院很誠實因為大法官憲法判決所以我們更試審我們秉持大法官憲法判決意旨免死我告訴你接下來非常少數到最高法院去到哪個法院去一樣我們秉持大法官廢除死刑實質廢死的判決意旨全部改判免死"},{"start":9293.325,"end":9313.778,"text":"然後呢接下來我們的部長 哎呀拜託法院把他們羈押好不好然後法院要不要羈押 看法院高興啊 人就放出來不要再騙了 不要再轉移焦點了 不要再迴避問題了為什麼跟主席這麼生氣 待會他一定要問這一題 主席是檢察官"},{"start":9317.745,"end":9341.198,"text":"他非常知道今天檢察官跟法院的前者的分析是什麼所以你的保證一點用都沒有你沒有辦法保證他被羈押這超出你的能力連秘書長都不能保證這超出他的能力實質廢死的現狀就已經發生了所以我在這邊我再次宣示"},{"start":9342.95,"end":9350.192,"text":"我托付著我今天選我的名義 我不會在立法院配合大法官做實質廢死的修法 謝謝好 謝謝 那請回下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":9372.297,"end":9373.178,"text":"有請黃秘書長還有部長"},{"start":9384.185,"end":9403.951,"text":"布長、秘書長您好這次大法官做成了死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決那其實也引起了非常多的討論那麼固然大法官沒有宣告死刑為違憲這個說實在話還出乎我的意料之外我想當天在整個憲法法庭辯論上面"},{"start":9405.271,"end":9421.442,"text":"以及看到所有的法庭之友的辯論書：法庭之友的意見書當然除了我代表中國國民黨所提出來的那份法庭之友意見書是贊成死刑核限還有法務部的立場也是贊成死刑核限之外全場是一面倒都認為死刑是違憲的"},{"start":9422.683,"end":9448.317,"text":"那麼做出了這個死刑有條件合憲的憲法判決這個對於這個法學界來看這件事情當然會認為他就是實際上看起來是死刑是合憲但是設下了重重的關卡那其實判決的效果已經達成了實質的廢死這個部分來說的話也是讓大家對於大法官在判決書裡面所談的"},{"start":9450.658,"end":9468.454,"text":"要設置最嚴密最高程度的正當程序保障的這些條件呢那麼感到疑惑而且也認為說這些大法官所談的條件難道司法院之前沒有處理過嗎沒有討論過嗎我想請問秘書長我們知道其實司法院"},{"start":9475.131,"end":9487.549,"text":"他是這個刑事訴訟法的主管機關那過去基本上也主導刑事訴訟法的修法那請問你們到底修了些什麼你們有針對大法官之前所談的這些條件曾經有提出過討論嗎"},{"start":9489.571,"end":9511.118,"text":"因為之前並還沒有這個憲判但是之前有那個兩公約的兩公約的這個這個像公正公約的這個要求像那個要情節最嚴重的這個犯罪在兩公約裡面就有那那個程序其實在最高法院本身最高法院本身從101年開始其實他們本身就針對了"},{"start":9512.939,"end":9534.793,"text":"施行案件的這個上訴那他已經要求說要開必要的這個顏值辯論好 了解所以也就是說其實司法院之前有曾經討論過那麼請問部長還有秘書長你們對於這次大法官所設置這些條件造成實務上面的未來在實際的運作上面會不會有治安難行之處譬如說何怡婷的一致決"},{"start":9541.493,"end":9543.813,"text":"因為大法官的要求是說在三審的法院都要有一制決請問之前的評議部都還保留著嗎?"},{"start":9571.491,"end":9576.115,"text":"我們現在正在查因為我們的評議部依照那個檔案管理是有目前的規定是保留10年所以代表可能之前的都已經銷毀了好沒關係我們先要看一下這個剛剛其實秘書長有講的司法院其實曾經主導過這個一直都在主導刑事訴訟法的這個修法那麼本席也是高度的質疑"},{"start":9594.693,"end":9601.798,"text":"你們在101年的時候當時司法週刊上面就已經有講就是你們曾經有修這個刑事訴訟法第388條將強制辯護延伸到第三審落實被告的辯護依賴權那麼接下來在110年最近這前三年的時候也曾經有在討論要持續的修刑事訴訟法要經濟人權保障將羈押中的被告納入強制辯護範圍請問你們過去都有討論可是為什麼都沒有提出修法"},{"start":9625.734,"end":9643.174,"text":"跟委員報告因為實際上面當然我們正在在是不是因為食物界反彈沒有沒有因為食物上面就是這樣在做的都有這樣在做所以根本沒有修法的必要對那只是說大法官這一次認為說食物上這個做法應該要再進一步的這個明文那以前最高法院就是這樣一直在"},{"start":9643.975,"end":9667.025,"text":"所以就是很多時候在做的根本不需要修法嘛那大法官為什麼那麼強制認為要修法是因為他勸你們勸不動所以呢乾脆直接做了一個憲法法院的判決直接在裡面寫清楚然後要求你們要修法是不是如此我高度的懷疑那接下來我想要講的就是你們在這次的報告裡面你們提出來未來要修法的只有四種死刑罪名但是還有其他的罪啊"},{"start":9668.396,"end":9679.046,"text":"在我們特別法還有在這個刑法裡面其實光是涉及到就是光是與這個罪重本刑是死刑的條文就有30幾條就有30幾種條文吧涉及88種的死刑罪名"},{"start":9685.157,"end":9691.86,"text":"委員報告,因為大法官只能針對釋憲的標的你講得很好,大法官只能針對釋憲的標的可是這次大法官的裁判理由裡面,基本上他是針對釋憲的標的嗎?釋憲標的裡面有說要強化程序保障嗎?"},{"start":9708.752,"end":9712.822,"text":"沒有吧,我們法學界都說這次大法官做的憲法裁判是數位裁判啊他已經依託了這個人民所提出來的釋憲的理由"},{"start":9719.615,"end":9734.849,"text":"本席認為這是只能針對這四種死刑罪名才需要最嚴密的正當法律程序其他的都不重要了其他的條文好像也已經有在申請釋憲另外的案子等到整個釋憲完了之後再做決定所以未來對於死刑犯還是有差別待遇的"},{"start":9740.134,"end":9742.577,"text":"部分的人他能夠享受到這個最嚴密的程序保障那其他的88種的都不需要我必須要講這是一個嚴重的問題我這次在你們的報告書裡面我看到了好那我要先下來講就是說有關於強制辯護的問題那麼在三省強制辯護的部分"},{"start":9756.656,"end":9764.424,"text":"那麼這個是大法官這次要求同時在偵查訊問的過程當中也要求要引進強制辯護制度為什麼當時刑事訴訟法的31條只說在審判中需要強制辯護而沒有講到說在偵查訊問當中就要強制辯護你們知道當時的立法理由是什麼嗎"},{"start":9779.247,"end":9781.869,"text":"現在的刑事訴訟法的31條為什麼只要在審判中才要強制辯護"},{"start":9793.444,"end":9799.789,"text":"他說這一次那個憲判的理由裡面有寫為了讓那個效率如果說有些時候會耽擱這個偵查的這個時間我要告訴我希望秘書長你回去看看當時的憲法訴訟法31條的立法理由裡面其實講得很清楚因為在整個的偵查詢問過程當中還沒有起訴起訴的條文也還不確定是不是這個最重以這個最重本性死刑來起訴"},{"start":9820.405,"end":9823.907,"text":"所以就是說如果說你在偵查詢問的過程當中就已經要引進這個強制辯護人的制度然後依照大法官的見解這個如果說當事人他自己不騙律師叫這個請法服的律師去幫忙做這個義務辯護那請問法服的這個律師的費用是誰出"},{"start":9841.802,"end":9849.751,"text":"法服的律師當然法服有法服但法服的預算是由我們司法院捐助的是 所以你們法院未來準備要增編一兩億的錢嗎"},{"start":9852.281,"end":9873.97,"text":"委員報告我們會去：法服他會去評估到底因此會增加增加多少所以你們現在有沒有做過精密的去計算在過去這一年當中有多少可能因為依職權依起訴告發等等的而涉及到最重本刑是死刑的"},{"start":9874.77,"end":9879.713,"text":"因為其實原來法服針對那個重罪的偵查中培訓本來就已經有這個計畫是 但是案件數不多但是現在因為當時是在審判嘛你現在已經進入到這個偵查詢問的過程當中本席這個有幫你們稍微算了一下齁那依照112年你們自己法務部的統計資料裡面這個顯示那麼事實上這個以這個最重本席死刑的偵查起訴案件是大概252件"},{"start":9901.787,"end":9903.429,"text":"但是呢如果說這252件的以死刑起訴的這個罪名其實那都才只是很少量我們回顧啊我們以這個傷害罪在去年大概有三萬兩千件那事實上有可能"},{"start":9917.228,"end":9921.149,"text":"是更多因為這個可能人家當時也是告發或是一職權認為說可能是有死刑的這樣一個情況可是最後這個轉回變成只有三萬兩千件所以我們是認為說有可能未來會有六千個都是在偵查詢問階段被懷疑這個死刑的嫌疑犯"},{"start":9939.674,"end":9959.809,"text":"需要有訴訟辯護人的那如果說以這個死刑的嫌疑犯他所要聘請的法服的律師作為訴訟的這個作為訴訟辯護人他的費用大概一個階段是兩萬五千塊所以你司法院你至少要編一億五千萬那為什麼要用人民的納稅錢"},{"start":9963.923,"end":9972.965,"text":"去幫這些死刑的這個嫌疑犯去幫他們付律師費用這筆錢為什麼不拿來去幫那個被告家屬還更好我要講其實大法官所做的這號憲法裁判他其實已經造成這實務界運作的一個很大的問題不僅是法官在審理的時候那麼這個我其實我有想看"},{"start":9992.319,"end":10018.83,"text":"幾位實務界出身的大法官他們都非常不能認同這次在憲法判決的主文裡面特別就這個精神障礙在救審能力在救審的時候還有執行的時候也認為以後不能判死刑這已經顛覆了整個罪責的理論了這其實引起很大的爭議同時在實務運作面、層面上面"},{"start":10020.571,"end":10049.004,"text":"請問部長這會不會來造成檢察官在偵查詢問的時候的一個困難必須等到這個律師在場的時候才能問因為偵查中本來就是要預知要不要選擇辯護人那如果要等待的時間當然要扣除那些的時間但是如果說他不請我們依照憲判的意思我們還是要問像司法檢察官都要問他說我們會通知法服來選任那這一代子"},{"start":10049.324,"end":10070.635,"text":"所以這中間的時間就會拖長了這個部分其實本席作為立法委員然後我之前也是法學教授所以我很在乎實務上運作的情況那麼我也希望你們如果真的要提出修法的話也要提出一個能夠符合實務而且能夠接受的"},{"start":10071.075,"end":10080.653,"text":"一個修法更何況我其實我是感到很很遺憾的是也是覺得很不能夠接受的就是如果說司法院"},{"start":10082.754,"end":10107.79,"text":"從101年當時就認為強制辯護制度是這麼重要為什麼你們自己都不修法然後司法院院長不是還這個主持或是幾個大法官也主持司法也主持這個刑事訴訟法的研修會議該做都沒有做然後最後透過一個憲法法院的裁判然後以止氣使的來命令大家來修法最後呢累死了一堆小法官"},{"start":10109.511,"end":10133.089,"text":"這樣的做法其實是非常不恰當的當然就是今天秘書長在這裡也是待主受過啦這個判決也不是你們做的但是你們要去承擔所有的這樣的一個民眾的不滿法學界的不滿但是無論如何如果你們要提出修法的話我也希望你們能夠提出一個符合司法"},{"start":10134.295,"end":10141.656,"text":"十五屆還有符合民眾期待的一個相關修法好謝謝好謝謝委員好請回那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請鄭部長好麻煩部長"},{"start":10164.196,"end":10164.869,"text":"好 部長無案"},{"start":10166.957,"end":10195.531,"text":"委員好部長我們今天就這個113年憲判字第8號判決的內容那對於死刑和憲刑的這個解釋來檢討如何完備程序那和相關的這個法令的修正那符合我們憲法法庭判決的這個意旨死刑的這個議題長年來都是有正反雙方的一個論辯但它從來都不是二元的一個是非題"},{"start":10196.471,"end":10225.551,"text":"而是對於維護社會秩序和人權保障之間那更加多面向的思考和評估也看到我們這次憲判的重點並非在死刑存廢與否而是要讓審判的程序更加的嚴謹大法官也考慮到我們歷史社會發展的一個脈絡以及多數人民的法感情對於最大惡極的犯人就應該"},{"start":10226.892,"end":10241.264,"text":"可以相應的罪責受到最嚴厲的制裁以發揮刑法嚇阻犯罪的功能來維護我們社會的公義被害人我們也可以為他來伸張正義"},{"start":10242.285,"end":10257.12,"text":"因此未來在配套的修法上我們也必須多考慮到被害者的心情及立場司法體系也應該要有積極的作為來回應民意以鞏固我們民眾對於司法的信任"},{"start":10258.513,"end":10275.207,"text":"那我們看到這個憲判對於判處死刑的要件適用於個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重且這個刑事的程序符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的要求的情形"},{"start":10275.988,"end":10293.75,"text":"若遇到無法判死刑的案件則無期徒刑是否得以替代嚴懲重大犯罪所以我想就有關於終身監禁落實無期徒刑的部分來和部長做一個討論"},{"start":10295.672,"end":10311.922,"text":"那我們看到朝野各黨對於終身監禁不得假釋或是提高假釋的門檻都有提出類似的這個修法方向甚至已經有要求提出這個修法的版本來討論我們也了解到法務部這邊"},{"start":10313.002,"end":10334.298,"text":"在研議定定無期徒刑假釋門檻的這個層級化的規範那所以我想請教部長對於這個假釋門檻如何區分這個層級是否我們已經有了大致的一個構想那法務部的這個特殊無期徒刑是否就包含不得假釋的這個終身監禁"},{"start":10336.84,"end":10362.109,"text":"謝謝委員那這個因應那個憲判字第8號的一個判決那我們法務部已經嚴理修正刑法77條我們在第二項有徵定我們這個草案就是故意殺人或殺人未遂竟判處無期徒刑或逾10年有期徒刑不得假釋我們認為那個殺人跟殺人未遂這個是屬於社會最不容忍的一個嚴重的一個犯罪當然那所以我們認為這個是要排除那個"},{"start":10365.27,"end":10365.29,"text":"．述"},{"start":10387.319,"end":10401.927,"text":"倘若這個各黨團都提出了這個相關的修正版本那我們也希望說法務部的版本能夠一起來審查而對於這個無期徒刑假釋的這個配套其實也並非在這一次這個憲判"},{"start":10403.368,"end":10420.3,"text":"之後才開始討論所以希望我們法務部盡可能縮短這個研議的時間盡快把這個相關的修正的內容提出來那我想再請教部長就是說我們預計要多久的時間能夠將這個修法的版本送到國會來進行審查"},{"start":10422.141,"end":10446.859,"text":"這部分因為相關的那個修正我們會盡快提到行政院來有審查然後還要在會前那個司法院那我們希望司法院能夠多支持那我想我們就會很快速的來提出跟立法院來提出這個法案有沒有一個最短的時間其實我們是希望這個會期看看有沒有辦法我們努力看看"},{"start":10447.579,"end":10453.822,"text":"對於修法的方向不論是要延長監禁或是採取終身監禁不得假釋重點都是要提高我們犯罪者實質的這個服刑時間以達到嚇阻犯罪的效果但是"},{"start":10475.27,"end":10493.486,"text":"想在這個預證實務上可能會遇到的問題也應該一併納入這個討論所以我想若提高這個假設的門檻以我國當前這個監獄超收的情況是否有需要再增建這個監所"},{"start":10495.43,"end":10507.155,"text":"這個如果有必要的話有需要的話我們會朝這邊去努力那現在目前監獄還是都有在增擴建那詳細的是不是我可以請那個教政署署長來待會回答"},{"start":10509.944,"end":10527.319,"text":"報告委員目前確實受容人數有微乎上升的趨勢那原則上以北部地區的超額受容比較嚴重尤其臺北建議、臺北看守所還有桃園建議跟宜蘭建議但是我們本署"},{"start":10528.439,"end":10546.064,"text":"會第一先做機動調整宜間第二就是由北部移往南部為沿著另外我們部長剛剛有提到目前在北部地區八德外宜間大概在今年年底可以完成增加大概一千四百人"},{"start":10546.784,"end":10566.981,"text":"那在我們中部地區的彰化看守所預定明年年底可以完成大概可以增加收容人數1200人所以將來北部地區跟中部地區的超額收容可以得到緩解以上目前來看是不服使用就對了"},{"start":10567.819,"end":10583.79,"text":"目前我們會用機動調整一件隨時來應驗那由此可見我們少子化的情況然後這個犯罪的行為人越來越多才會導致這個監所這個不服使用應該是這樣子吧 署長"},{"start":10584.09,"end":10608.41,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們現在比較注重收容人的人權所以以前是0.7坪現在我們一人一床變成是一人一坪所以實際上我們的在100年成立的時候我們的收容人是6萬6目前大概是5萬8而已但是因為一人一坪的關係我們會壓縮到空間使用空間的問題是是是會壓縮到"},{"start":10610.636,"end":10621.844,"text":"反之我想再請教部長就是說如果可能讓其他的重刑犯獲得提前假釋的機會反而會不會影響到這個社會的治安"},{"start":10623.328,"end":10649.501,"text":"我想在那個假釋的話要那個從那個要何時來審核寬延並濟我們認為有教化成功當然我們就合乎假釋的門檻我們盡量就就給他假釋出獄那如果說那個假釋的的條件像那個整個教化成果不好那當然我們還要持續的我們就會重研審核尤其是重罪的重罪這一部分那當這個"},{"start":10651.167,"end":10668.814,"text":"犯罪犯罪者然後他的服刑時間越長那我們監獄可能就僅有發揮這個懲罰而已並沒有失去就完全就失去這個教化的功能可能也會和我們當前預證的這個政策和矯正的目標"},{"start":10669.394,"end":10671.676,"text":"我想這個矯正的執行面是不是我請那個矯正署長來代表"},{"start":10694.793,"end":10722.755,"text":"報告委員 我們會加強老人次裝科的門診我們現在跟監所跟鄰近的醫療院所都合作包括老人門診那我們也有包括老年受刑人要多照顧的政策所以在去年年底我們有到日本去觀察他們的主義我們也會作為所謂的指引手冊我們都做出來了將來我們會對這個部分特別留意"},{"start":10723.977,"end":10746.839,"text":"對於這個比較老年的這個受刑人會特別留意那我想在精進相關的這個法令的這個同時預證系統的改革也應該要一併來檢討那以提高我們自由行的長度來作為這個嚴厲刑法是社會較有共識的一個修法方向"},{"start":10747.66,"end":10765.953,"text":"那但在這個預證資源長期的匱乏情況之下以及這介護人力的不足也是我們後端急需要改進的一個相關配套那在這個部分我想未來如果有機會的時候再和部長來做一個強加討論是不是部長要簡單再說明一下"},{"start":10768.435,"end":10779.685,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導,我想這個最重要的這些殺人的這些的,我想我們即使沒有判死刑,我們判無期徒刑,我想我們會從,以目前我們會從嚴來審核,從嚴審核,我想這也是"},{"start":10783.809,"end":10783.849,"text":"好,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":10812.025,"end":10812.245,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":10839.15,"end":10867.349,"text":"最近大反觀做出來的實質視線已經讓民眾非常的憤慨按照這樣的發展下去以後我們在矯正署應該成立一個長照中心反正終身監禁未來不管這個老年的照顧有失智的或者有這個老年疾病的應該成立一個長照中心然後繼續由我們納稅人來付款這到底是一個什麼樣的社會"},{"start":10869.983,"end":10889.183,"text":"上個星期上個星期大家都知道施奪獎的女屍她被姦殺案那個整個的過程極為殘忍這個案子曾經五度被判死但是一直不停的發回這個最高法院來來回回的更審"},{"start":10890.376,"end":10917.381,"text":"最後因為大法官的釋憲結果．實質廢死的釋憲結果．使得這一個人身共憤最大惡極的罪行．最後得到了一張免死金牌．這個兩天在民眾裡面．激起了非常非常大的一個反感憤慨．覺得我們的司法正義在哪裡．我們司法與惡的距離竟然如此之近．"},{"start":10920.825,"end":10945.462,"text":"所以這樣的一個狀況我們未來不管是司法院也好各級的陳審法官以及我們法務部要如何因應比如說法務部要修法我剛才就講嘛最後修法結果就是在監獄裡面成立長照中心繼續在浪費納稅人的錢然後繼續沒有辦法讓我們的受害者跟受害家族得到最後的社會正義"},{"start":10948.53,"end":10968.724,"text":"有一個事情非常重要接下來看一下這個最近大家比較沒有討論事實上在很多的這些殺人案件裡面都以精神疾病來逃死逃避被判死結果呢現在呢整個大法官視線的結果把它擴大"},{"start":10972.955,"end":11001.444,"text":"除了你犯罪時候你有沒有精神疾病我們現在本來就是你在犯罪的時候你有精神疾病我相信這個法務部部長也當過檢察官你們在這個過程裡面應該要去鑑定他有沒有精神疾病其實就有他的困難度了你犯罪時候即便你犯罪時候沒有精神疾病但是你在審判的時間你犯罪時候是正常人喔"},{"start":11002.974,"end":11029.647,"text":"審判期間 這個官司拖得很長如果在審判期間你有心智缺陷或者有精神障礙也可以逃死這就是大法官做出來的解釋等到審判完你犯罪時候沒有精神疾病你審判的時候也沒有精神疾病但是告訴你你要被判死刑了那個時候你有精神疾病"},{"start":11030.888,"end":11042.031,"text":"最後也不能執行死刑所以一路上把精神疾病精神障礙作為最後通通可以逃避死刑所以這不叫做實質廢死什麼叫做實質廢死呢還有人說這不是"},{"start":11050.373,"end":11067.661,"text":"精神疾病其實在過去像殺警案、鐵路殺警案裡面大家討論就很多然後我們就質疑社會大眾質疑可以用精神疾病然後就可以逃脫嗎現在更扯欸你犯罪的時候"},{"start":11068.72,"end":11071.983,"text":"在立法院的來下一頁我們立法院預算中心有提到"},{"start":11098.556,"end":11127.428,"text":"司法精神醫學專科的醫師啊 事實上非常的少我有注意到衛福部啊 我時間那個什麼 剪短一點衛福部的報告裡面 特別有提到說從109年開始辦理這些專科醫師偵審作業有103名的醫師可是你知道嗎 只有第一年可能因為第一次來舉辦 第一年有60名接下來每一年逐年減少啊"},{"start":11128.408,"end":11154.877,"text":"到了112年最後一年只有7名了從第一名的60名到最後只有經過3年只有7名了所以我們會面臨一個司法精神的這些專科醫師也明顯減少更不要說在這個過程裡面你要找一家醫院兩家醫院一個醫生兩個醫生這通通都有很多的爭議所以這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":11158.55,"end":11184.205,"text":"未來我們檢調警察花了一大堆的力氣來偵破辦案檢方求刑到了法院因為大法官的釋憲反正我們繼續在浪費我們的納稅人的錢嘛浪費我們的納稅的資源社會資源來來回回整反正就是不會判死也不會執行死刑"},{"start":11187.865,"end":11211.806,"text":"這叫做什麼社會正義呢所以請教一下司法院這個部分我給你一點時間或者是請你書面答覆我這個是我們民眾非常非常關心的什麼呀你在犯案的時候精神極為正常之下你犯下這些罪行惡大的"},{"start":11213.131,"end":11213.311,"text":"簡短回答一下"},{"start":11229.079,"end":11249.771,"text":"那將來這個大法官的這個要求那我們衛福部的報告裡面有提到說將來這個司法精神醫學我們會跟法務部跟那個衛福部看怎麼樣去去這個精進這一部分那我們自己也有一些想法有一些想法包含說那個將來的這些"},{"start":11251.832,"end":11256.735,"text":"麻煩喔,可不可以請法務部跟我們司法院能夠提一個書面的,你們初步要怎麼講,你們應該馬上都會面臨到好不好好不好,給我一個書面的,你們要怎麼做,謝謝"},{"start":11282.188,"end":11282.428,"text":"吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":11309.506,"end":11311.487,"text":"邀請司法院秘書長和法務部長"},{"start":11329.625,"end":11352.695,"text":"假官、法官、那也有我以前前方的指導老師都在這邊所以我等一下如果任何說錯的地方都可以都可以來現場就說我講錯了那我想說我到立法院這邊我常常覺得一個很奇怪的事情就是說部長我已經不是一次跟部長說真的不要配合政客在那邊回答話所以"},{"start":11356.099,"end":11378.966,"text":"這邊不能說不懂法律的人然後來這裡假裝自己是法律專家然後懂法律的人來這邊又假裝自己不懂法律那你面對這些政客在那邊胡說八道的時候為什麼要配合他演出呢我們應該是要告訴國人真正的法律規定是什麼什麼我們該告訴人民說大家要煩惱要擔心的那什麼"},{"start":11380.276,"end":11380.636,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11403.11,"end":11420.12,"text":"在上一次法律科技對於吳大委員每次在那邊對這法律齁不懂那邊胡說八道亂帶風向然後部長你剛也是跟著他這樣講所以我剛才會說那個部長沒有回答到立委的問題嘛那待會我會跟你說怎麼樣我想說"},{"start":11422.285,"end":11439.662,"text":"今天我們一個人在就審的期間包括偵查的期間你能夠押他一定是因為有羈押或者是有預防性羈押的必要性嘛兩位是不是這樣子那羈押跟預防性羈押他都有他的要件"},{"start":11440.302,"end":11462.479,"text":"那羈押101 行刑訴訟法101條羈押就是那幾個原因嘛那預防性羈押也就是說他有再犯的可能性嘛但是在許多案件裡面法官認為說被告沒有需要判死刑都是因為他有教化的可能性他有悔改那自然就是不會認定說這有反覆實施之餘嘛所以我才會說今天你要押一個被告"},{"start":11463.947,"end":11483.262,"text":"你必須把他關著不讓他出去你要有法院的羈押才定嘛那如果我們今天一個人被判死刑到執行槍決之前這個叫做收容這不叫做羈押所以羈押依照目前的法制是可以折抵刑期但是收容應該是沒有"},{"start":11484.463,"end":11511.936,"text":"上禮拜部長也有說你不認同這可以折抵刑期那我也蠻認同部長的這個想法雖然這是我們第一次遇到這個狀況所以今天我們擔心的是當這個被告他被非常上訴後來撤銷死刑判決之後回歸到普通法院去審理這時候能夠限制他自由的方法就是一種就是法官裁定羈押"},{"start":11513.097,"end":11513.337,"text":"我可以說明嗎?"},{"start":11537.856,"end":11558.838,"text":"我想我們現在碰到的目前是即將可能提起非常上訴的時候那現在大家問提起非常上訴是不是會放人那當然委員已經很清楚幫我幫我已經分析了我上次在院會有講過了這個目前還在擠壓還在收容中那在法院其實最高法院在"},{"start":11559.378,"end":11588.27,"text":"在整個一個審理在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前還是一個收容的狀態大概委員有提到如果萬一撤銷了怎麼辦那撤銷那我要分門分門如果說自為判決的話他就判決確定我們就直接當場就執行了嘛直接就收容改成受限生我們就直接就對那另外另外有跟委員再報告那如果他撤銷發回到高院的時候那當然我沒建議我們我們都當檢察我們知道計價權是屬於法院嘛"},{"start":11589.23,"end":11605.587,"text":"那我也沒辦法保證說法院一定會押但是以現實我認為法院會押但是我那這單位如果法院不押我們怎麼處理我們就只能抗告或建立羈押或再建立羈押的室友我們再建立法院羈押那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳校委員"},{"start":11606.448,"end":11631.038,"text":"那吳教員他在帶風向就告訴人民說這些人不會出來但是我就在這邊告訴你依照法律的規定我就說現場很多法官、檢察官的學長也有我檢方的指導老師我如果講錯隨時歡迎反駁我這個回到法院審理的時候法官第一個法官有可能不押這是我們要面臨的第一個風險第二個風險是即使回到高院他最長的羈押時間也只有12"},{"start":11631.999,"end":11637.606,"text":"12個月那如果超過12個月沒有辦法繼續羈押了呢法官又還沒有下判決那怎麼辦"},{"start":11639.168,"end":11667.967,"text":"這也是第二個問題啊所以你跟政治人物說政客說人不會放出去那這不在騙全國人民啊我現在我在講理解我在理解的是在講目前的狀況收容中是不可能放出去那如果就撤銷撤銷花回高院的話當然委員擔心這個問題我不敢保證說沒有沒有對那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長要正視這個問題這些人有可能在不久的將來會被放出來"},{"start":11669.308,"end":11687.619,"text":"法律不是說可能不會啦應該不會啦就可以那萬一法官放出來呢萬一法官因為積壓的要件就那幾個嘛滅政逃亡對或者是預防性積壓嘛滅政或逃亡或者是重罪積壓但是有滅政或逃亡之餘"},{"start":11688.599,"end":11709.406,"text":"這三個狀況請問一下一個20幾年前的殺人罪他有什麼滅證或篡證之餘第二個逃亡那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之餘呢所以當羈押的條件都不符合的時候法官怎麼去自己自創法律去裁定羈押他這是我一直以來我上個禮拜一跟部長就教就這個問題但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我"},{"start":11710.026,"end":11735.311,"text":"但我必須在這邊要幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情這個人可能在回歸到普通法院審理的時候他沒有辦法押或者是已經超過了12個月押不了了那這時候這些人回到社會上面我們國家有什麼作為我今天是要講這個這個會造成人民的心理的不安全感那第二個我要跟部長說明的"},{"start":11737.079,"end":11764.882,"text":"部長剛跟中加兵委員回答一個東西是完全不對的你要再去跟中加兵委員說你講錯了就是說假釋可以適用新法但是部長刑法施行細則第7條之2是以行為時欸這假釋的標準是行為時欸所以他必須讓到當年假釋的條件也就有可能是15年就可以假釋了如果部長你說假釋可以用新法的話"},{"start":11766.311,"end":11781.837,"text":"可以用什麼終身不得假釋假設說可以用新法的話我跟你講現在明天監獄保證大鬧一堆無期突襲人開始鬧房了因為他本來他以為15年或25年可以假釋就現在突然我要試用新法所以部長即使你想要修"},{"start":11783.721,"end":11811.388,"text":"這個實行細則我覺得也萬萬不可因為會天下大亂但是你剛剛跟宗嘉斌委員回答說這個可以適用新法所以這是不對的這完全違法我想這是一個立法政策的一個問題立法政策的一個問題那這部分我嚴厲的結果我們是以適用新法較為妥適那沒有了那那我就跟好那你這37個死刑犯適用新法"},{"start":11812.659,"end":11839.42,"text":"要讓他們終生不得假釋那其他死刑犯呢你可以割裂適用嗎你可以說以前判的無期徒刑就要適用舊法現在新判的無期徒刑要適用新法現在所有目前在監在看守所的死刑犯都是屬於屬於這個這個屬於個案個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的那我認為能審判這屬於嚴重的暴力的"},{"start":11840.673,"end":11867.378,"text":"的一個犯罪所以我們認為這部分是在社區是非常的危險的部長部長你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說依據刑法實行細則假釋是以行為時的那個時間點的假釋條件就你今天你告訴宗家兵委員說這37個死刑犯將來如果判無期徒刑的話我募集徒刑修成終身不得假釋可以適用刑法這個整個違反規定啊那如果"},{"start":11868.078,"end":11886.401,"text":"你這樣你難道要割裂適用嗎?那現在的無期徒刑這不是立法政策的問題耶法律一時折轉我希望就是說這部分當然是可以討論的部長沒有這樣子我跟你講你這樣講我就完全顛覆我對法律的原來法律可以對他可以這樣對別人不可以這樣"},{"start":11887.162,"end":11915.823,"text":"那今天你無期徒刑無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為實碼適應細則規定的清清楚楚那你今天突然要說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定那今天在現在在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人非這37個那他們是不是也要適用新的呢你今天變割裂成這37個用新的其他人用舊的法律沒有人在這樣把各位各位這邊那麼多法官檢察官"},{"start":11917.401,"end":11937.079,"text":"部長不能這樣子啦好那沒關係部長這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議那第二個就是說上個禮拜一在執行部長的時候部長說重罪可以羈押我在那邊跟部長說4至665號以及行刑訴訟法101條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了重罪"},{"start":11937.759,"end":11938.78,"text":"那我是認為不可以這樣子那再來就是說"},{"start":11964.709,"end":11969.434,"text":"我就是說 延續禮拜一的那個說法還有剛剛的講法啦"},{"start":11972.413,"end":11994.154,"text":"這些人這37位死刑犯當然如果非常上訴不成功那就是執行我想部長沒有意見但是如果他們非常上訴成功的話回歸到普通法院真的你們要注意在押是有時間限制的如果他一年內判不出來真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在在看守所內了"},{"start":11996.176,"end":12011.069,"text":"我們可能會面對法官不押因為法官是獨立審判我們任何人包括院長包括秘書長也沒有權利去告訴法官你必須才押或不押所以我們可能會面對到的風險是"},{"start":12012.93,"end":12028.421,"text":"被告他有可能會因此而沒有羈押而回到社會那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長但是部長都沒有回答的部分那我現在來回答那我想羈押權是屬於法院"},{"start":12029.181,"end":12047.018,"text":"那我想如果說法院不以我們經過各種的努力包括建立論告建立法官要羈押如果法官還是要判我想我們就是用抗告的程序那因為我們用依法的科技監控定期查房定期報告等機制來做對這些"},{"start":12048.78,"end":12051.041,"text":"科技監控沒有錯但是我們只是知道他人在哪裡我們沒有辦法"},{"start":12075.598,"end":12076.659,"text":"各位報告這是屬於審判中的失誤有關審判中的失誤"},{"start":12093.859,"end":12104.304,"text":"這部分再麻煩部長也要找內政部討論一下警政署討論一下看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決那最後不好意思再給我一點時間我想我們來回過頭去討論這次憲法法庭判決對於這個精神障礙的這個認定我覺得"},{"start":12122.111,"end":12142.153,"text":"就像剛剛那個翁曉琳委員說的其實這一次的法大法官的判決已經是數外裁判我認為也是因為大法官本來是解釋憲法但是這次現在大法官開始他會創造一些制度要大家去遵守那這個已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定就像以前我們在在刑法第19條我們當然可以"},{"start":12143.735,"end":12163.315,"text":"要求法官他在審理的時候去認定被告行為時他的精神狀況如何但是這次大法官他甚至多了一個要求說你在審理中要怎麼樣受刑了要怎麼樣資訊錢你要怎麼樣他已經多了非常多奇怪的要求這個都已經不是原本"},{"start":12163.996,"end":12176.986,"text":"對於法官在刑法19條的時候他可以認定他行為時的這個標準那我說真的我也是不能夠理解說大官這一次為什麼會做這樣子的認定他這個已經是"},{"start":12178.41,"end":12195.635,"text":"已經是變成說我認為是一個宿外的裁判了那這個部分我想可能我今天時間也不夠了我想我另外會找一個時間再來請教你們剛剛很多委員同仁他們有提到說就從硬抱主義去講或是說"},{"start":12196.668,"end":12225.223,"text":"從先什麼死刑是殺人這個我還是覺得啦就套一句那個布袋戲的話啦他說那個殺生是護眾為護生展業不展人所以說其實今天我們不是喜歡殺生我們不是我今天是為了保護眾生而去做這件事情在我們心中我不是取了他的性命其實他是在為他的業障去去做一個付出那個他這個責任所以"},{"start":12226.143,"end":12248.38,"text":"從頭到尾我都沒有說那麼認同去做這個應報的概念但是你要知道說死刑在這個社會上面的存在為什麼我自己主我們很支持尤其事務界非常支持因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子所以我們對於死刑我們認為他有存在的必要性而不是像有一些委員或一些學者他們可能"},{"start":12249.361,"end":12250.522,"text":"本來是想要提到精神病"},{"start":12269.531,"end":12290.909,"text":"的死刑的部分我想我可能就之後不好意思因為時間的關係部長那個37個死刑犯如果法院真的不再羈押我這裡建議啊因為執行是你們的權責嘛這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養3個你把他送到"},{"start":12292.296,"end":12302.817,"text":"司法院每個大法官輔導他們,心理輔導三個月,這樣可能就比較沒問題了,跟大法官日以繼夜三個月就好了,看他贊得到嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":12317.349,"end":12318.029,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12339.277,"end":12350.015,"text":"秘書長,我上個禮拜總質詢談到刑事訴訟法第208條的修法。我不曉得你們司法院有沒有注意到這件事情?"},{"start":12351.192,"end":12375.71,"text":"那個就是鑑定的鑑定的這個停擺行事訴訟法對停擺現在說醫療糾紛的鑑定是現在所有的這個審理程序都停擺現在300件送到醫審會要去做鑑定被退回50件而且還有250件即將要被退回是"},{"start":12376.09,"end":12397.563,"text":"所以整個審理的程序都停擺影響了當事人的權益這把火是司法院放的可是現在沒有人在乎更好笑的是這個社會上最精英的兩大勢力法界和醫界在那裡惡鬥"},{"start":12399.244,"end":12409.312,"text":"你們修了法以後呢法界硬是要這樣子叫人家具名一屆就是我不願意我不理你你能怎麼樣可是犧牲了當事人的權益耶"},{"start":12413.325,"end":12442.348,"text":"那這個秘書長現在要怎麼解決跟委員報告那這個這個鑑定好像議審會是屬於機關鑑定那機關鑑定依需要照我們現在的這個訴訟法的正當程序的要求那必須要這個具名然後然後必要的時候要出來做說明這是法律上面正當程序的這個要求那當然當然我們理解說議審會方面有一些的"},{"start":12442.688,"end":12458.456,"text":"不要講這麼多我就問你啦因為這個修法是你們做的而且在修法以前2013年修法以前啦在2019和20年的時候當時就要修了而且還開了公聽會然後呢衛福部很清楚的"},{"start":12459.076,"end":12460.357,"text":"在公聽會上表示而且還具體的行文給你們表示對208條裡面要具名還有在審判中應到庭言辭說明鑑定報告等他們有不同的意見所值的理由"},{"start":12475.723,"end":12487.528,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你們說就鑑定的程序而言醫療就費的鑑定具有高度的專業性和複雜性本部會達成客觀性、公正性和專業性的鑑定本質醫審會的委員組成都有普遍性和專門性"},{"start":12492.89,"end":12516.973,"text":"而且呢他們去要請來醫審會鑑定的人啊都是各這個醫學中心或是各領域裡面的這個專業人士他們是做初審他們是做初審嚴提初步的鑑定意見可是你知道嗎醫審會不是初審的醫師寫了報告就定案了你知道他們是怎麼出去報告的嗎"},{"start":12518.555,"end":12528.974,"text":"最後有出審的委員他並不具名那最後是由那個建定會的委員我只要跟你講他們出審的報告不代表他們未來會出具的報告"},{"start":12529.997,"end":12541.324,"text":"他們是合意制而且要共識決而且出神的報告可能會被修正而且可能會被大幅修改而且可能會被再重新鑑定他們是合意制共識決在這裡你要求出神的意思去具名還是要求最後共識決的時候擔任主席的意思去具名"},{"start":12552.731,"end":12557.234,"text":"全體委員具名更好笑派一個代表更好笑這個委員代表出來他能代表誰只能代表他個人可是建立報告可能跟他個人意見不完全百分之百一致呢"},{"start":12579.653,"end":12582.335,"text":"當時衛福部就跟你講出去書面報告的鑑定連續還要到言辭說明鑑定報告他在辯論的時候還要再去造成作業上困難而且難有實意現在話又說回來了你們都覺得說"},{"start":12595.826,"end":12611.96,"text":"據名 要負責 要肯認這個證據力的真實性現在來了 我現在問你 據名才敢講真話 就一切鑑定而言喔 據名才敢講真話 還是不據名才能夠真正的玩 才能夠這個呈現真實 你覺得呢"},{"start":12615.183,"end":12635.099,"text":"跟委員報告齁具不具名是不是說講真話我想這個可以講因為具名其實是你要他有真實性而且要對他的證據力負責嘛而且要問責有法律責任嘛因為當事人可能有疑問對這個建立有疑問他有個人可以請教的對象請教的對象那如果像以前請教的對象這句話聽起來像是有另一層意義"},{"start":12640.523,"end":12644.467,"text":"好 沒關係你沒話就是希望呈現真實嘛對不對對啊 問題是我現在就問你啊 說得比較白咪咪 衛福部他在公文裡面有寫得很白他說醫學分科集系彼此之間 師生關係 同儕關係 朋友關係甚為熟人 及時相 經常相往來倘若建立一件書面報告具名 除非"},{"start":12666.007,"end":12671.688,"text":"均作有利於被鑑定醫師的鑑定．否則如作不利之鑑定．勢必又與社會網絡關係而拒絕從事鑑定．而無法釐清事實的真相其實他們在暗示雖然不應該這樣子但事實是應該要具名沒錯可是考驗著人性這個人性上沒有醫師願意這樣做而且"},{"start":12690.473,"end":12697.016,"text":"你們現在醫生會拒絕鑑定、退鑑你們也去找了醫學中心你們也去找了醫學會問題是藍醫學中心、醫學會、個別醫生、機關機構沒有任何一個單位願意再幫你們做鑑定所以當時他們所講的其實就是目標方法"},{"start":12715.209,"end":12719.934,"text":"這個沒有辦法一致目標是對的但執行上是不可行的因為違反了他們的人性嘛所以呢他們一再當時就跟你們講說欸報酬也不相當你叫他領一個車馬費然後要去跟你跑法院"},{"start":12731.647,"end":12735.43,"text":"那你叫他報仇相當對當事人訴訟當事人來講成本也不能負擔啊所以他在跟你們講修208條的時候你要新增第三項前兩項規定其他法律另有規定則依其規定但是這樣也不會改過來這件事請問你們現在家中有大人了我問你們啦"},{"start":12754.471,"end":12764.24,"text":"你不修法的話,不修法的話,要怎麼解決?現在沒有醫生要幹定,醫學會也沒有,醫學中心也沒有,個別醫師也沒有,醫學會也沒有,整個審理程序停擺,你們告訴我怎麼解決?你們放了火,司法院放了火,現在跟你們沒關係,因為法務部不會去理會,他們沒辦法跟你們去審理。"},{"start":12780.274,"end":12794.494,"text":"現在事不關己啊司法院擺爛啊從5月到現在沒有辦法進行審理擺爛然後法務部也沒關係反正這個東西是衛福部的責任"},{"start":12796.267,"end":12817.57,"text":"衛福部也 衛福部不是沒修欸 衛福部修了什麼 你知道嗎所以你是代理秘書長 但是你做副秘書長還寫專題了衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 他說要修法 他修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也修了 修了什麼衛福部也�"},{"start":12817.97,"end":12827.285,"text":"沒有他修的是施行細則啦施行細則修這個我跟你講修了這個施行細則有用的話他現在不用繼續推薦"},{"start":12829.605,"end":12854.025,"text":"他修這個給醫生看醫生還是不願意他說這個相關的鑑定的資料文件應依政府諮詢公開法第18條第一項第五款規定限制公開或不予提供其鑑定書的內容由司法或檢察機關依法定程去提供這不知道在修什麼我也看不懂那跟你們現在刑事訴訟法有漢格之處怎麼辦"},{"start":12855.386,"end":12864.172,"text":"現在他修了知行記者也無解他也沒有人要做那現在訴訟要不要進行啊?訴訟要不要進行啊?我想我們會跟議審會跟衛福部我們進一步的你剛剛落跑了你們的你們是誰?廳長?刑事廳長?"},{"start":12886.496,"end":12891.269,"text":"他說了你們,你們是誰?是你嗎?你要負責嗎?你有沒有申請要回去當法官?有?"},{"start":12895.906,"end":12904.653,"text":"目前沒有啊那未來一定要是回到什麼未來未來11月1號以後新任的院長還是男產沒有院長一個代理院長權力的正當性就問號了代理院長權力的正當性問號如果在代理院長只在找一個秘書長他的正當性更是問號加問號欸是不是是不是"},{"start":12921.565,"end":12945.017,"text":"在野黨杯葛 我要講的是院長 我不講大法官啦 院長、副院長難產是1月1號以後正當性有問題 而這種問題也沒辦法解決人民的權利就在那裡 不斷地不斷地杯葛字在那裡 審理程序無法進行要不要修法 怎麼修法 沒有修法要怎麼解決庭長你來表述一下意見"},{"start":12948.897,"end":12965.876,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在這之前我們有跟醫事室那邊有討論過我們能派我們的組合法官到醫事室那邊跟醫整會的委員講重點怎麼解決那這部分可能要做進一步的再做溝通因為醫整會要不要修法沒有修法可不可以解決"},{"start":12967.359,"end":12986.248,"text":"我們有一些相關的鑽定人的禮遇措施包括他可以用過科技方法來做結問這個方式可以包括避免他被漏收你有問過衛福部醫生會願意嗎這部分我們還會再去做溝通事實上我們已經溝通了好幾次了因為這個醫師的鑑定他是專業人士其他別人也是專業人士包括醫事室是鑑定他是專業他是法定的鑑定機構現在專不專業不要講這麼多第一個"},{"start":12996.693,"end":12998.673,"text":"你們在那裡曠日廢食當事人的權益一天拖過一天已經拖了快半年了300多件未來還要增加幾件"},{"start":13024.119,"end":13028.442,"text":"在上面的權益,你們修了一個法有沒有可能再修法?有沒有可能需要再修法?你有沒有覺得很荒謬?剛修了一個法,放了一把火,讓訴訟當事人的權益不保,然後你說好我再來彌補,我再來修法"},{"start":13047.955,"end":13060.603,"text":"現在是遭令有錯細改無妨嗎?所以董事長你為什麼要一意孤行?為什麼都不聽人家的?現在就這樣搞到雞飛狗跳?對不對?"},{"start":13066.062,"end":13085.833,"text":"沒有院長在野黨喔我跟你講主席我是建議啊我不想有大把關啦但是院長副院長人事統一權不要像其他在野黨講的說要過的機會等於零要過的機會等於零整個司法院會停擺秘書長沒有沒有院長代理院長的權利正當性沒有然後整個像這種"},{"start":13090.928,"end":13115.701,"text":"製造了問題以後沒有辦法問題沒有辦法解決問題然後整個政策上的決定沒有人可以擔當的起來所以秘書長也要跑了再一個秘書長也要跑了在一個新的立法院正式通過的院長產生以前那個秘書長都是 都是不好的我們在這陣子也不好的 夠不可以回家而已啦所以我是覺得說在野黨外呼籲主席"},{"start":13116.86,"end":13144.501,"text":"我們就好好地審他的院長、副院長的人事其實呢 臨選荷爾默還有政治政治可以問責嘛 大家都有政治問責的機制可以存在 對不對 這樣子下去你叫司法院來 審預算叫任何人來 都不好 他們這些人都是不擔當不負責的 也沒有權力負責的所以是真的是喔 很荒謬啦 好啦我知道時間到了 謝謝"},{"start":13146.684,"end":13161.995,"text":"不好意思,謝謝林委員那個剛講的鑑定那個實務上真的非常重要對啊,你那個死刑精神病的鑑定對啊,好,好,謝謝下一位我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":13176.995,"end":13204.837,"text":"主席請秘書長秘書長委員好秘書長辛苦一下顧不論你是不是司法院的秘書長你身為司法界的議員今天就應該來面對今天大法官所做出的解釋造成中華民國整個司法體制的嚴重重大的迫害"},{"start":13206.158,"end":13226.715,"text":"破壞我們來如何面對如何來修復我想司法一直都是社會秩序最後一道維護的防線開始所謂皇后的徵抄但是今天這道防線已經成為中華民國台灣人心惶惶這個社會秩序要如何維護"},{"start":13236.9,"end":13263.797,"text":"荒鄉走板的大法官讓全民陷入空前的危機當中請問一下這個從9月20號到現在所謂的實質廢死這個又設了八道最嚴格的關卡本期請教幾個比較簡單的問題"},{"start":13267.225,"end":13269.086,"text":"何謂個案犯罪情節最嚴重、最重大之罪?"},{"start":13285.475,"end":13309.888,"text":"跟委員報告當然那個大法官的這個憲判字的那個理由裡面有歷史的一些的情形當然他有特別講那個那個未必故意的殺人不包括直接概括跟責任的這些故意然後另外另外包含說他有講一些情形如果如果說是無差別的那"},{"start":13311.528,"end":13335.937,"text":"他有講一些的情況那據說其他情形當然要個案的這些法官審審的這何一庭去斟酌那個刑法57條的這些犯罪動機目的手段這些的情形去做做那個個案的綜合判斷那那個書上面很多法官在用一些不確定我們叫不確定的概念不確定概念比如說常常沒有法律說必要時"},{"start":13337.337,"end":13338.218,"text":"因為這個大法官的解釋"},{"start":13351.67,"end":13380.163,"text":"秘書長說了半天就是一句話看個案不確定性請問既然是不確定性法院審理當中要以什麼為主要依歸什麼叫情節最重大之罪法官要如何適從在發生這個案件正在審理這個案件你夠粗暴夠殘忍這時候社會上又出了一個更殘忍的"},{"start":13381.089,"end":13400.741,"text":"那這一件事就已經不夠殘忍了就已經不是最重大之罪所以啊本席實在看不懂也聽不懂什麼叫做最重大之罪略而顯而易見的就是現在這位女教師被強盜強姦殺人"},{"start":13407.455,"end":13426.589,"text":"有人類死以來強盜、強奸、殺人本來就罪無可赦現在多了一條已經判了五個死刑結果現在法官他不要跟當朝來對抗不需要跟司法院、憲法法庭來對抗他們叫了一個他是隨機隨機比故意"},{"start":13436.069,"end":13454.152,"text":"他犯罪會比較輕嗎?水晶會比較輕嗎?水晶是更可怕的耶他隨時為爸媽隨時想怎麼樣就怎麼樣不需要任何預謀這是更可怕的但卻是因為大法官這麼荒謬的解釋無辜判死的人現在改判無期徒刑大家都揣摩商議嘛"},{"start":13466.069,"end":13478.937,"text":"何必去跟憲法法庭對抗何必跟司法院對抗未來官位不保啊都升不上去啊上刑下校連秘書長都講不出來人民要怎麼辦人民要怎麼辦本期再請教現在判死刑的人定讞的人"},{"start":13493.166,"end":13522.315,"text":"還要考慮重新回溯再來考慮他犯罪時他的心智精神是不是有問題在審判中他的精神他人格是不是有問題最荒謬的是在執行 定驗執行前本席第一次看到有沒有受刑能力的欠缺"},{"start":13524.773,"end":13524.873,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":13549.291,"end":13554.802,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官的這個精神能力這部分我想"},{"start":13558.706,"end":13580.985,"text":"將來我們一定會在各個案的審判中那依照那個訴訟法部分跟那個醫療單位現在精神鑑定剛剛在這裡吵了這麼久是就沒有人要幫你鑑定嘛我想跟委員報告啦那我們會先關於機制包含說如果鑑定了這些報酬那個是不是齁這15位大法官先做精神鑑定啦"},{"start":13582.742,"end":13583.543,"text":"現在說啊各級法院啊"},{"start":13613.649,"end":13637.148,"text":"要採一致決第一院、高院三位法官要一致決最高法院五位法官要一致決這一直接侵犯到法院的組織法105條平一的時候本來就是多數決現在要一致決"},{"start":13642.328,"end":13665.722,"text":"請問一下現在這37位死刑犯中有哪一位在審判過程中不是一致決的有沒有跟委員報告齁因為大法官是說要證明說那當時是一致決那我們現在要調這一些的券包含什麼時候可以查清楚我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候嗎"},{"start":13668.843,"end":13687.255,"text":"在這裡在國會講話要清楚嘛什麼叫儘快希望在兩個月之內兩個月之內37個人你要掉兩個月這什麼行政效力啊因為這個保存卷宗保存因為有的都非常的久那我們卷宗保存是10年目前的規定是10年這是在你任期內耶9月20號做的解釋判決你們是不是早就應該啟動了"},{"start":13697.165,"end":13703.147,"text":"那本期再請教一下那如果未來檢察總長全部提出非常上述總長今天有沒有來主席總長應該要來嘛"},{"start":13725.646,"end":13752.999,"text":"這37位他要來做說明啊好 再來如果這37位提起檢察總長提起非常上訴之後這37位如果都改判了無期徒刑都改判了無期徒刑沒有一位法官願意去跟司法院對抗好"},{"start":13754.38,"end":13775.728,"text":"改判無期徒刑就如同強盜強奸殺人而且是隨機最可惡是隨機還可以改判無期徒刑請問一下秘書長如果改判無期徒刑這37位有哪幾位已經符合可以立刻假釋"},{"start":13780.509,"end":13783.75,"text":"跟委員報告部長也來請明確回答那個假釋是法務部的這個指導不不不來來來假釋要經過你們嘛來來來部長來"},{"start":13798.462,"end":13823.475,"text":"目前這37都在收容中那我們是反對這些收容的期間若有改判的話我們是不認為我們是反對記錄那個摺底刑期也記錄假釋的門檻期間那我們是反對的部長你不要在這裡搞政治嘛什麼你反對不反對你要依法執行什麼叫反對你要依法什麼叫反對"},{"start":13824.695,"end":13846.221,"text":"所以我們要修那個建立行刑法148條的那你現在就還沒有修法啊那沒有修法的話我們照這個那你現在修法可以溯及既往嗎我們是剛才有提到說我們這個修法的話可以溯及既往這個是屬於那個現在修法都可以溯及既往越講越離譜了你要鬧到國際聯合國人權委員會舉報違反兩公約什麼都來啦"},{"start":13854.141,"end":13859.065,"text":"你們弄了一個破網越補越大洞法律是怎麼來收集記網越講越亂來胡說八道北京現在問你的不是你願不願意肯不肯的問題北京現在問你的是依法這37位依他犯刑時候的法律如果趕他無期徒刑"},{"start":13879.383,"end":13905.276,"text":"有多少會議可以申請假釋?一線刑法的話因為假釋必須要執行才可以那現在是收容是不能夠折抵假釋的就是那個不能折抵那個刑期無期徒刑的刑期所以目前的話我們認為這部分我們認為沒有折抵的可能"},{"start":13906.007,"end":13907.627,"text":"重大的犯罪你們是牽涉收押嘛對不對"},{"start":13935.179,"end":13963.797,"text":"當時"},{"start":13965.612,"end":13984.419,"text":"最早的犯刑無期徒刑最早無期徒刑民國80幾年無期徒刑多少年可以假釋10年10年所以本席在問你嘛你不要跟我繞圈子嘛明確回答本席的問題把所有的資料查清楚部長所有資料查清楚這37位"},{"start":13994.399,"end":14011.664,"text":"從抓到人、收押、起訴、審判所有過程當中37位所有的資料收押期間多久這個資料送到本委員會來也送給本席一份部長清楚嗎清楚好請回這個秘書長既然啊"},{"start":14022.363,"end":14049.78,"text":"這個大法官可以造法本來憲法78條是在我們法律的判決有競合過程有灰暗不明有解釋不清定定不明的時候由憲法法庭來做解釋判決現在呢法律定得清清楚楚他結果來造法"},{"start":14050.669,"end":14077.728,"text":"玩法弄法而且要求要一致決直接違反立法院所通過的明確的法律而且我們國家也執行這麼久平一九十多數決他現在改成要一致決所以院長：那個秘書長請教一下所以是不是憲法法庭啊要求別人啊要一致決"},{"start":14079.165,"end":14088.451,"text":"憲法法庭未來15位大法官是不是應該要15位依法定員而15位一致決才能做解釋?法務委員那憲法法庭只是針對這個死刑的部分說要一致決並沒有說其他情要一致決那憲法法庭似乎也沒有說這個死刑就是刑法裡最嚴重之刑嘛"},{"start":14110.355,"end":14136.656,"text":"維護這個社會安全最重要的防線嘛誰家沒有婦孺誰家沒有孩子你讓我們的孩子面對這樣的一個這麼恐怖的一個社會嗎秘書長雖然工作上可能會調整但是你絕對是司法界大家庭裡面非常重要的一員"},{"start":14137.93,"end":14165.186,"text":"我們現在都在面對啊9月20號啊中華民國司法最淪喪的一天就是大法官的15位無恥無能大法官所做出這樣的一個毀憲亂政的一個決議所以本席在這裡啊認為啊既然是這樣的大法官以後更應該依照法定原額啊來做一致決啊才能夠啊"},{"start":14166.52,"end":14182.714,"text":"確保未來法律啊不會被嚴重的扭曲捍衛全國國人的這樣的一個安全我們這個國家為什麼越打越詐為什麼這麼多虛偽這麼多的假面從這15位大法官我們就看到這就是他們的真面目不敢說違憲"},{"start":14194.417,"end":14195.058,"text":"下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":14222.24,"end":14243.147,"text":"謝主席本席想邀請秘書長以及部長麻煩秘書長、部長今天站上這個發言台其實要講這個議題我們的民眾非常的恐慌非常的恐慌"},{"start":14244.284,"end":14272.405,"text":"那也就是憲法法庭在大法官解釋之後社會普遍認為普遍認為是實質的廢死也因為這樣子我們又看到很多的個案這個個案陳儒大家非常關心而且不捨得曾經獲得師奪獎的退休老師他所遭遇到的這樣的一個現象情勢"},{"start":14274.244,"end":14288.236,"text":"被害者被這樣子的一個情況社會大眾都認為天理難容在這樣的情況之下五度被判死刑就因為這樣子的一個解釋這個社會該當如何"},{"start":14296.636,"end":14304.939,"text":"政府要怎麼樣去保護我們的人民我想聽聽兩位您對於這個事件的看法委員 個案獨立審判的情節怎麼樣說實話我們尊重獨立審判這個是司法院的職責大法官的解釋出來很多人也講大法官這一個其實"},{"start":14326.488,"end":14341.713,"text":"並沒有說它是說死刑是違憲的它只是要求設定在個案情節最嚴重跟符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序只要符合這些東西還是可以判處死刑的那將來"},{"start":14344.61,"end":14365.301,"text":"將來如果說個案的這個情形我相信維護這個社會的治安跟有沒有判這個死刑恐怕是不是有這麼直接的這些關聯我想這個大家是可以討論的但是死刑就成如如果像剛才委員所講的目前正好在我們的除了最近發生這一件那麼其他國家也正好發生一件"},{"start":14366.281,"end":14367.381,"text":"這是你的回答我讓社會大眾"},{"start":14392.526,"end":14397.84,"text":"了解看到我們的政府他是這麼回應民眾的他是這麼的回應民眾來請"},{"start":14402.336,"end":14430.098,"text":"跟委員報告我們認為死刑是核限的那這次憲判議址也是認為死刑核限但是對那個屬於那個故意殺人這部分他是認為是屬於個案犯罪刑最嚴重的罪那但是還要他是要求要再進行嚴密的正當的法律程序所以這些程序補足了這個就可以判處死就可以把這個危險的處理掉那我們現在該進行的就是要趕緊修法"},{"start":14431.099,"end":14442.639,"text":"讓依照憲判意思趕緊修法那我想這個判死刑還是有他的一個一個空間那我想我們法務部還是本的這個質詢我們對這種人審公分的這種案件我們都是要求"},{"start":14443.993,"end":14446.774,"text":"在完備法律這部分我們大概以法來處理了謝謝"},{"start":14468.188,"end":14490.613,"text":"我要請社會大眾聽到政府的回應在大家面對這個困境義憤填膺的時候得不到政府的保障安全的時候我們的政府部門所做的回應是如此我們也拭目以待但是本席還是要告訴大家這樣子的解釋"},{"start":14492.381,"end":14517.498,"text":"是不是敲醒了司法正義已死的喪鐘我們台灣的司法還有正義嗎我請社會來公平請這個司法院請回座法務部部長我想要跟你討論一個問題也就是目前全台灣我們總共大概有五萬五千個受刑人"},{"start":14518.922,"end":14543.812,"text":"那麼這些的受刑人不管是他在怎麼樣的情況就是在我們的看守所或監獄裡頭那我們看到目前監獄相關最多的是什麼呢殺人、搶劫、性侵不是而是什麼?毒品犯對不對?第二個是什麼最多?詐欺"},{"start":14546.212,"end":14567.004,"text":"所以換句話說五萬五千人裡頭有三萬三千人就是詐欺跟這個毒品犯我們在這樣的情況之下難免大家會認為有輕判將刑期打到骨折的這個情況"},{"start":14568.57,"end":14586.798,"text":"所以因為將刑期打到骨折導致債範率會高尤其這兩個三萬三千人的回籠率會高我們用實質的質化量化來看我們的政策所以影響整個社會秩序"},{"start":14588.021,"end":14589.162,"text":"關於那個假釋問題齁我們是採那個"},{"start":14607.967,"end":14631.321,"text":"那個核死來神和寬延兵器,我們認為有加化的效果的話,我們達到角色門檻,我們盡量就會給它核准出去了。依法你目前是如此嗎?對,但是我們所呈現的社會現象是如此,該當怎麼辦?你覺得也沒辦法啊?你已經抄說了這麼多啊,你現在預估你們現在容納量你抄說了多少啊?"},{"start":14631.874,"end":14632.054,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":14650.236,"end":14664.939,"text":"包括委員我們的合併收容人大概是6萬人左右那目前前台的收容人大概是5萬8千多所以我們目前是沒有超收但是在北部地區是有超收集中"},{"start":14666.22,"end":14681.126,"text":"北部地區像北堅、北鎖還有我們台原監獄跟宜蘭監獄它是有稍微超收大概將近兩成其他是還好尤其比如外藝監或是少年角色的學校這邊都沒有超收的問題"},{"start":14681.826,"end":14708.09,"text":"好 財政署一個回答還好我心驚膽跳因為部長我已經告訴你了因為其實你們也背了一個黑鍋送到你這裡來你不說不行但是一個政府應該他在整個橫向他必須是嚴密聯繫的這才是對的所以我希望你們勇於去提出你們的困境出來才不會讓人民這麼樣的恐慌"},{"start":14708.831,"end":14713.025,"text":"我們已經從上頭的原則、制度、方案"},{"start":14714.181,"end":14738.388,"text":"法律講到結果論山蘇政策整個山蘇啊我們這個國家到底出了什麼事部長所以我也希望你們勇於提出你們的困境我們大家一起好好的讓台灣不是一個犯罪天堂好嗎你也把剛剛本席所提問的請你書面資料怎麼樣經濟方案也給本席好嗎謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14743.562,"end":14772.288,"text":"那個秘書長剛剛那個楊委員所提到那個你剛剛有講到說什麼冤獄後來多久後發現嘛那我跟秘書長報告其實冤獄的解決方式是強化訴訟而不是不能執行你不能說因為有冤獄的可能性所以不能執行死刑兩個邏輯不一樣嘛你沒有強化司法的訴訟然後避免冤獄的產生而不是說這樣子就推論死刑執行是有問題的"},{"start":14773.228,"end":14774.688,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員發言麻煩秘書長"},{"start":14804.85,"end":14819.692,"text":"委員好我想我們今天在這裡都是討論非常沉重的話題那這次大法官對於憲法判決結果媒體也說這叫新增八道的生死門也就是說八個條件都要過關才有可能被判死刑"},{"start":14820.43,"end":14834.251,"text":"所以社會嘩然大家都說這就是要等同實質廢死那我想前面也非常多委員都已經提有講到相關的問題但我想針對其中兩個部分來跟大家做討論也想各單位表明自己的立場"},{"start":14835.515,"end":14859.976,"text":"首先就兩個這個PPT上面的條件做討論原本原文在這個PPT上面那簡單來說就是如果犯罪者在審判中或是在監獄中只要無法向監獄外的人身心正常那就不應該被判處死刑想請問一下我們的司法院的代表這個秘書長我這樣的理解有錯嗎"},{"start":14862.24,"end":14867.041,"text":"那我想請教一下這樣子長期被關在監獄裡面收押一段時間之後會出現身心狀況應該是非常容易發生的事情吧?"},{"start":14886.584,"end":14897.065,"text":"各案有沒有這種情形可能還是需要做評估跟鑑定那不見得說都會發生我想不見得但是比例應該挺高的吧"},{"start":14898.518,"end":14922.228,"text":"好我給你看看我們也可以看到廢死聯盟自己提出的報告也說死刑犯活著就等同於被虐待痛苦且毫無尊嚴我想在這樣的情況之下很難身心沒有一點狀況其實也不要說死刑犯我想大部分人只要長期被關起來長期被監禁的環境下身心狀況沒有辦法說完全沒有異常吧是不是"},{"start":14924.966,"end":14949.52,"text":"這部分可能要專業的去評估還是我們可以請那個法務部長是不是可以請我們部長可不可以告訴我們這樣的情況在監獄裡面這個受刑人的身心都很健康嗎跟委員報告這是屬於那個執行面的問題那我想我們會做一個輔導那做一個協助那這個執行面是不是我可以請那個矯正署長來回答好"},{"start":14952.202,"end":14980.596,"text":"報告委員目前前台監所是以毒品患為最多那以所謂的精神問題毒品患比如說吸食安慰他命他可能會破壞他的比如說腦神經他會有被害妄想等等我想請教就是說你在長期這樣子收押的情況之下是不是受刑人其實很容易不能夠說他完全沒有精神異常應該是會出現一些精神異常或是他只要說他精神有狀況就可以了"},{"start":14981.072,"end":15003.157,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在跟鄰近的納入二代健保,會給他比如說精神方面的看診,或包括說...好,你沒有回答我的問題喔,我想說好,我還是,我看就不用再回答,我還是回到剛剛講的這個段落,基本上只要在審查的判斷的過程,他整個審判的過程當中,他只要說他精神有狀況,"},{"start":15004.097,"end":15031.516,"text":"就不應該被判死刑我想這就是大法官的解釋這也是我們一般民眾沒有辦法理解還沒有辦法接受的非常的離譜喔那我想另外我也想要問憲法判決裡面還有要求必須是最嚴重的犯罪情節才能夠判死我也很好奇這樣的定義到底是什麼我整理了一些例子喔姦殺檳榔西施的人這樣子嚴不嚴重是不是最嚴重是不是犯最嚴重最嚴重的情節"},{"start":15033.396,"end":15046.249,"text":"是不是最犯罪最嚴重的嚴重情形?法官他各案他一定要調查所有的這個證因為我沒有接觸到這個案子的那個好那也有把母子一起吊死的"},{"start":15047.954,"end":15072.804,"text":"這樣嚴不嚴重?也有人把人綁在車子裡活活燒死的甚至也有把我們人民的保姆殺害之後說把他判死刑的話就是會讓法律變得殘忍所以應該要廢除死刑的這些人在我們大眾眼裡都是最嚴重的犯罪情結者那是怎麼樣?還有什麼方法可以比較出是最嚴重的犯罪情結嗎?"},{"start":15074.704,"end":15103.946,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那麼各案當然他被告抗辯說他不是最嚴重但是檢察官他就會去說服法官說他的情形是最嚴重好秘書長部長我想要說以前以前古代有這種開國的元勳可以拿到免死金牌青天白日勳章現在啊到我們這個社會現在非常的悲哀啊居然是大法官頒給坐監犯科的人免死金牌給了他八道免死金牌"},{"start":15105.472,"end":15132.126,"text":"真的是讓人民非常的心寒這8道免死金牌讓人民覺得非常的錯愕另外我也想要請問警政跟這個法務部這個憲法判決等於是讓犯罪的成本有上限就如同常常聽到犯罪的人說反正又不會被判死刑所以是不是會擔憂這樣讓我們的治安更加的敗壞也會製造檢警跟司法院的矛盾會不會"},{"start":15136.046,"end":15147.42,"text":"我想現在還是實行還是制度還是維持那判死現在沒有說一定就不會判死因為司法院的報告裡面自己也有說要有共識那我想請問這樣子什麼時候會有共識"},{"start":15148.865,"end":15154.85,"text":"我想我最後做個結論這一次的大法官釋憲讓我們人民看到的是大法官頒給了我們做監犯科的罪犯8道免死金牌讓人非常的遺憾"},{"start":15179.212,"end":15197.43,"text":"大法官滿職的荒唐人民一把辛酸淚讓我們覺得非常的對於未來非常的沒有光明沒有這個社會沒有這個公平正義所刻眼所以要再次強調我們現在已經不只是反對廢除死刑我也反對廢除實質的死刑謝謝"},{"start":15202.183,"end":15213.571,"text":"蘇清泉委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員、高津樹梅委員"},{"start":15227.168,"end":15238.512,"text":"委員好我們都不知道該怎麼說這個事了我們就從個案開始講起吧這最近這個退休女老師的先搶再兼再殺的案件是不是最嚴重犯行"},{"start":15241.753,"end":15263.523,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個個案個案要我沒有參與這個案子的審理那案子的卷證那法官各省的法官本於他自己審理的結果本於他的本於他對法律的認知去做判斷所以基本上甩鍋給法官嘛他們處理就好對不對他們認定就好對不對由他們來認定因為個案說實話我們沒有接觸到這些卷證那我們"},{"start":15269.546,"end":15276.329,"text":"現在司法院對於法院的這個大法官的詮釋等於給了一大堆的裁量又修改了門檻現在還要全體一致決"},{"start":15296.13,"end":15324.259,"text":"這個實務上來講會不會造成判決死刑更加困難實務上來講會不會跟委員報告齁那其實其實在憲判期之前齁在兩公約之後齁我們簽署公正公約之後公正公約已經要求是個案最嚴重那時候其實在沒憲判之前有一些裁判就已經就已經援引公正公約去設限那這一次比較要求一些正當程序正當程序的部分那其實法院的實務上面"},{"start":15325.379,"end":15329.82,"text":"不要在那裡繞圈子這報告裡面其實已經寫得很清楚了給了一大堆除了我們剛剛講法官自行可以按新政來認定是否是最嚴重之外你也開了一大堆的後門包含精神障礙等等"},{"start":15345.484,"end":15369.546,"text":"那我要問的是你們包含前面的這個釋憲的這些詮釋跟你這幾天的報告這些重點我就問你寫了一大堆保障加害者人權的各種條款跟各種條件可是你在詮釋這個憲法的過程中你有沒有考慮法律在社會中公信力的重要性"},{"start":15370.567,"end":15382.233,"text":"有沒有考量法律有維護社會秩序穩定跟人心安定的作用有沒有有的話請你拿出來講一講我們從來都沒有看到這樣的事情這些概念不重要嗎秘書長"},{"start":15383.43,"end":15403.2,"text":"跟委員報告我想憲法法庭當然是基於維護憲政秩序的穩定因為憲法是整個國家最基本的高於其他的法律所以他解釋憲法的本質意志保障生命學這個意志我想大家都應該要尊重"},{"start":15403.86,"end":15426.045,"text":"好 所以你又推給大法官嘛反正就他們解釋了對不對我們回到剛剛那個姦殺案來講這其中有媒體的報導裡面講就是說他之所以可以逃過死刑有很重要的原因是屬於隨機性的並非預謀的所以並非最嚴重之行為好 你從個人角度來講你講預謀可能比隨機更嚴重可是從社會的角度來講難道隨機殺人帶給社會的危害比預謀殺人差嗎"},{"start":15429.724,"end":15457.403,"text":"我們剛剛幾個委員在下面討論我們一致都認為我想人民百姓也都這樣認為隨機殺人對治安的危害對社會的影響是比預謀殺人更嚴重可是從你們的詮釋你們的想像你們的主張裡面它不是最嚴重所以我們可以給它放一條深入這不是胡鬧是什麼呢剛剛我們也討論憲政諮詢講得真好我們在修國會改革法案的時候你講立法院擴權我告訴你現在"},{"start":15458.721,"end":15469.97,"text":"司法院擴權啊所有事情由你大法官說了算然後你這個擴權侵害到的是什麼侵害到的是整個社會對於我們司法系統的公信力我今天這樣子的說法秘書長你要反駁嗎"},{"start":15477.12,"end":15504.171,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官解釋憲法本來就是憲法的意思大法官解釋那各個機關包含我們都必須要尊重都要尊重現在就是一群沒有民意基礎的蛋頭在搞擴權然後把所有的權勢權抓在自己的手上我們立法院是五權機關裡面最貼近民意的我們今天如果不把這些話講清楚我們有愧選民的所託來法務部長"},{"start":15506.252,"end":15529.421,"text":"我要再有請我請教幾個問題我們剛剛已經確定司法院大概對最嚴重的犯行大概不會有什麼明確的定義跟激證那我們回到法務部的權責法務部你總管下面的檢查系統對於維護社會安定你的想法是什麼你覺得有沒有必要考量社會大眾的想法跟法律維繫社會秩序的公信力跟安定性有沒有必要考慮"},{"start":15531.428,"end":15531.888,"text":"現在37個還沒有執行"},{"start":15549.082,"end":15568.217,"text":"委員報告 他們會不會通通提非常上述 這個要看因為這個才在調選中 那個這個整個 有可能對不對 不一定 這個是那個檢查總長這是一憲法訴訟法是有檢查總長的職權 他會就這37個個案我相信他會做妥適 什麼時候會有結果 這個我沒辦法去跟委員報告 你沒辦法確定 沒辦法保證"},{"start":15568.817,"end":15572.081,"text":"整個法務部系統對於這37個你現在口口聲聲講他核限他講他核限什麼時候會執行怎麼處理"},{"start":15586.716,"end":15607.49,"text":"司法院秘書長說解釋的是大法官?你現在講是檢察總長處理,是嗎?以前在所謂大搞實質廢死的時代,很多時候是最後那張公文放在你桌子上你就不批,對不對?以前當然不是你啦,現在經過這樣的程序之後放在你桌子上你會不會批?"},{"start":15609.434,"end":15631.963,"text":"如果這37個經過程序之後,確定要執行的時候,批不批?這個如果審核控告的話當然要執行啊當然要執行啊,那你覺得你有沒有機會批到?我們現在擔心民間擔心的是我沒辦法頒委員,我想這部分的話民間擔心,我要提醒部長的是,民間擔心的是這37個案例可能到了最後,十幾二十年以後大家也不會放在你桌上這就是大家擔心的事嘛"},{"start":15632.443,"end":15640.753,"text":"對不對我們有太多後門了嘛太多機會太多巧門可以逃開了這個是社會的一大悲哀現在"},{"start":15641.895,"end":15666.329,"text":"對於釋憲後修法的方向同樣通篇照顧加害人權對於被害者、被害家屬社會穩定的重要性跟權利隻字未提我不知道兩位是忘記了還是害怕想起來但是我要嚴肅的提醒如果這事情未來沒有標準沒有依據它只會讓事情更複雜鄭捷難道不是隨機殺人嗎他不就槍斃了嗎然後你現在講隨機殺人好像沒有這麼嚴重"},{"start":15670.376,"end":15696.912,"text":"那為什麼當初槍斃他這個未來難道不會變成我看看民意聲浪必要的時候我再走一下程序不必要的時候我就放在那個地方這樣子對這一群犯罪人的人權才是真正的加害真正能夠捍衛人權的方式反而是把標準很明確而且依法執行這才是正確的嘛我不知道我們在這邊講會不會變成狗吠火車啦但事司法院法務部未來的作為大家都在看謝謝啦"},{"start":15699.181,"end":15700.101,"text":"接下來我們請鄭正前委員"},{"start":15728.956,"end":15750.617,"text":"政政前 政政前 林思明委員 林思明 林思明 蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜好 那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝 麻煩請法務部部長麻煩部長"},{"start":15757.996,"end":15782.203,"text":"委員好部長剛剛牛雪婷講說不知道會不會是狗肺火車我們已經擔憂了這根本就狗肺火車因為大法官做出這樣的一個解釋之後真的會讓國人很擔心台灣是不是之後是非不分殺人不管是有冤有仇無冤無仇殺人就應該償命"},{"start":15784.383,"end":15799.228,"text":"因為你是殺人啊重點是殺人這件事情可是到最後現在變成是好像我們的標準已經浮動了那我再請教當然個案很難做一個釐清跟討論可是本席不僅想到上個禮拜"},{"start":15800.612,"end":15817.317,"text":"本席新北市發生一件非常令人難過的事情一個毒販開車我們有一個英勇的員警所長去盤查看他覺得奇怪颱風天前夕怎麼會停在路邊去盤查這個毒販"},{"start":15819.438,"end":15844.929,"text":"新生恐懼或是有任何的狀況他駕車逃逸讓這個所長掛在那個門窗外面到最後所長被毒販為了要擺脫那個勇警那個所長往護欄旁邊撞造成所長因為這樣被撞擊過大離開了這一個毒蟲這個毒販已經多次前科而且當天是獨駕"},{"start":15847.982,"end":15861.394,"text":"本席以及國人不禁要問如果以現在大法官的釋憲這樣的一個做法來講的話這個讀寵是不是到時候不會被判釋憲跟委員報告因為大法官釋憲他是針對"},{"start":15863.735,"end":15888.277,"text":"故意殺人的這部分以及殺人的結合和這部分來做一個解釋但是委員關心的問題其實我聽了我說實在我看這個新聞真的很難過因為他那個那個警察是非常優秀建中又市長非常非常優秀的他原本是在本期的選區三支當所長之後到主委當所長"},{"start":15889.338,"end":15907.826,"text":"他甚至我聽很多的員警同仁講說他已經有念應該是碩士還是博士學歷也非常好非常盡責那之後調去才不到兩年的時間那部長就直接請問了以現在的這樣狀況如果到最後這樣獨從"},{"start":15909.639,"end":15934.11,"text":"我跟他也無冤無仇我也不知道他誰但他犯下這樣的一個犯刑就是法理難容啊那如果法理難容的情況到時候變成是我們一審、二審、三審還要幾個職業法官都一致同意甚至你剛剛講了如果說他不是當初以殺人來做這個犯刑的話說不定他還可以逃過變成只有有期徒刑還不是無期徒刑國人能接受嗎"},{"start":15935.789,"end":15960.863,"text":"這部分我想檢察官也都是認為這個被告行為可惡而且合乎羈押的一個要件那有逃亡之虞那這部分檢察會申請法官羈押候證那我這個案件剛發生不久那我想這部分檢察會妥適的一個偵辦追究被告的一個犯行從嚴追訴那我想這部分"},{"start":15962.044,"end":15990.1,"text":"從嚴、最嚴可以到什麼程度這部分還要看案情的一個釐清因為我沒辦法跟委員做一個報告是不是說他有獨駕獨駕是獨駕過世致死或是逃逸過世致死那我想這個刑責非常重我想這個檢察會就依照那個證據來認定犯罪事實那我想委員關心的這個問題那我想是不是故意的這部分我想檢察會是一定的來了解釐清部長本席沒有要指導辦案"},{"start":15991.718,"end":16017.128,"text":"但是看到這樣的一個新聞真的上禮拜我們不要每一次都是今天公祭明天旺祭尤其這個所長他的他還有兩個小孩一個一歲一個四歲真的非常難過真的非常難過拉回來我們這一次講因為我們現在也有推動國民法官法"},{"start":16018.001,"end":16024.726,"text":"那國民法官法裡面其實它有兩個條件是可以讓國民法官來共同參與的一個是"},{"start":16028.243,"end":16052.368,"text":"最新10年以上的有期徒刑一個是故意犯罪而發生死亡結果者對不對所以可以讓國民法官共同參與但是現在大法官如果釋憲完之後是不是即便國民法官認為說他是要判死刑但是只要有職業法官不認為不同意的話他一樣不會被判到死刑這個理解是這樣是不是可以請那個司法院來回答"},{"start":16060.811,"end":16079.104,"text":"國民法官的法庭是三位職業法官跟六位的國民法官那依照這個憲法的話這三位的職業法官那都必須為死刑的這個一致局但是六位國民法官裡面只要有三位三位的話那這樣就達到國民法官的三分之二死刑的這個門檻"},{"start":16081.366,"end":16095.867,"text":"對 但是本席的問題啊本席的問題是如果說今天叫我剛剛這樣子來討論國民法官六位都認為是說他是應該要判處死刑但只要有一位職業法官不同意或職業法官沒有認為說要判死刑他是不是就可以逃過"},{"start":16096.923,"end":16117.484,"text":"跟委員報告那這樣我們推動國民法官的意義何在我們當初推動國民法官意義不就是認為是說少數的法官讓大家覺得是恐龍法官也因此抹煞了大部分法官的努力而造成我們認為是說就應該要用正常我們社會大眾共識的一個標準你們廣告做得很好啊找君君"},{"start":16118.635,"end":16147.403,"text":"找其他那些來拍廣告很好啊本席有看到啊那你不就是要講是說賣菜的大姐也可以來參與這個專家學者也可以來參與一般的市井小民也可以來參與我們就是用我們一般人的常識來去判案那所以6名的國民法官比不上一個職業法官要不要修法跟委員報告齁那這個國民法官好當然要配合這個憲判去修但是"},{"start":16148.85,"end":16165.117,"text":"說那個在一個法官本來的國民法官裡面就是規定說說今天假設作有罪判決的話那個國民那個職業法案本來就要介紹要有一位只是說這一憲判要求死刑的只針對死刑不是死刑的部分也沒有這個問題"},{"start":16167.137,"end":16185.347,"text":"所以我們現在討論就是死刑的部分今天不是我們稍微討論就是死刑的部分當然國人划欄也是死刑的部分啊就認為是說你明明雖然大法官講很好聽叫做合憲啊但叫做有條件合憲結果實質上就是往廢死的方向走所以國人才會划欄嘛才會認為是說是非不分嘛"},{"start":16186.277,"end":16204.033,"text":"那我現在延續我剛剛一開始的質詢到現在的問題都還是強調既然我們當初認為是說有漏洞我們把它補起來沒想到大法官的視線又再出了一個漏洞那我們要不要補這個漏洞再者你的國民法官法之前就已經講了什麼樣的國民法官是可以參與判刑"},{"start":16205.094,"end":16220.932,"text":"一個就是犯罪侵本行為10年以上有期徒刑者另外一個是故意犯罪而因而發生死亡結果者換言之你們也認為國民法官要進來就是比較重的犯刑嘛要嘛就10年以上的要嘛就是死亡的"},{"start":16221.843,"end":16241.912,"text":"所以既然都已經有這樣子的一個前提條件了代表說國民法官審理的案件很有可能是有死刑的裁量空間的那可是大法官給一個巧門只要職業法官三個有一個不同意抱歉你們六個國民法官講不聽不算這樣有嚴重嗎"},{"start":16246.465,"end":16259.974,"text":"跟委員報告大法官是一再強調判死刑死刑的宣告是無可挽回的所以他要求最嚴謹我當然知道不能挽回阿人死了也不能挽回阿所長離開也不能挽回阿秘書長代秘書長"},{"start":16270.186,"end":16295.129,"text":"記得一個禮拜前我在總質詢的時候質詢行政院院長那時候的部長也講說要用兩年的時間趕快把漏洞補齊修法那如果說這樣的話我覺得這是一個很大的漏洞本席也會提出相關修法我也希望司法院也要有態度不是說大法官說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":16298.399,"end":16313.472,"text":"法律制度是我們希望玩一個更好的台灣邁進如同昭偉常講對好人越好壞人越壞而不是好像壞人我們想方設法幫他找找巧門找漏洞然後對於好人這麼好的一個人謝謝謝謝那請回"},{"start":16323.609,"end":16350.894,"text":"好那今天所有發言登記發言委員都已經發言完畢那委員質詢的時候如果有提供相關的資料或以書面答覆請相關機關趕快交給個別委員還有本會那委員林思明所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報然後請相關機關以書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在暫會謝謝大家"},{"start":16356.36,"end":16356.627,"text":"本集完"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:30:19 - 13:03:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}