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這個在選罷法98條有所以選罷法98條可能我先幫部長回覆一下王委員好 那一樣我想說因為我剛剛聽王委員的問題我覺得我有興趣所以我想就接著往下問幾個問題就是那剛剛所提到的如果說我們部長需不需要先看一下98條就我們時間可以先暫停就是選罷法98條時間先暫停"},{"start":67.799,"end":69.983,"text":"對 先暫停 先讓他們看一下條文"},{"start":88.797,"end":104.265,"text":"那我就順著那個王委員的問題就是那如果說我們現在看的98條第一項第二款那如果說今天我們是用一個非法的方式叫大家來罷免或不來罷免你看其實他是符合98條第一項第二款"},{"start":105.305,"end":116.921,"text":"我就跟部長報告一下所以說如果前面有違反個資去收集到相關的資訊然後再拿違反個資所取得的資訊來做後續的傳播訊息等等的動作其實是有問題的"},{"start":122.048,"end":147.998,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下部長你們應該要稍微了解嘛而且另外調局你們這個應該也可以列為選舉查查的合分因為你們前面很多動作都 偽造文書都列為選舉查查積分在合分的嘛那像這個的話完全就是違反選罷法98條第一項第二款更可以名正言順用那個選罷法的積分來合分副局長你們有要處理這個嗎 有沒有"},{"start":152.373,"end":172.314,"text":"報告員如果我們受理相關的告發案件的話我們會收集相關資料然後提報給地檢署才會來執行偵辦好那我在這邊就是我等一下會再談一下個資的這個部分那我這邊也先跟副局長說明一下如果說這段時間的這個個資的利用上面假設是違法的話那"},{"start":172.874,"end":186.112,"text":"你們千萬記得我在這邊直接跟你們說嘛那你們就要開始下去調查因為這跟全民有關嘛那我也再跟兩位說明一下最近有很多實務上面查到的炸雞集團他就是利用這些簡訊所獲得的資訊因為"},{"start":189.135,"end":212.003,"text":"這些簡訊他雖然是外面的簡訊的代理商來幫忙發送這些訊息但這些代理商他所得到的這個門號他可以從門號去知道你去過哪些地點去過哪些地點嘛 使用的基地台位置這個在中華電信的廣告裡面也寫得很清楚你去過哪一間實體的售車展覽場然後之後他就會丟這個車輛的簡訊給你嘛"},{"start":216.264,"end":241.054,"text":"這個中華電信的廣告都有那我如果這樣的話那我自然我就可以從這些簡訊發送的代理商那邊從每個人的門號去反推回這個人曾經到過哪裡使用過哪幾個基地台這些東西請你們要注意一下很多詐團現在開始在用這些資料那就台灣詐欺很多啊我們現在要幫國人守住這一塊這個你們不能都裝作都視而不見"},{"start":242.963,"end":260.892,"text":"那我這邊跟幾位說明一下就是這個月初的新聞報導就有關這個罷免的連署的這個簡訊嘛那那個反共互台聯盟的人指出說他們這個簡訊是透過跟代理商這邊下單去購買的這個服務"},{"start":263.954,"end":285.296,"text":"那他說呢 這個代理商會跟三大業者合作並以區域基地台以及當初申請門號的地點還有作為發送地點好 所以呢 光目前依據那個報導新北市就有五個選區有 雙河 板橋 淡水 新店等等的像台中那邊也都有"},{"start":286.129,"end":310.462,"text":"所以以當初發送門號的地點他也可以針對這個門號申請人的年齡學歷性別等等的這些來取得這些發送的資料那我想請教一下就是 霸團取得這五個選區的各行動電話的門號然後廣發簡訊鼓勵罷免的連署那為什麼霸團可以取得這些資料"},{"start":314.104,"end":338.898,"text":"好 沒關係 那我幫你們回答好了那就是因為 霸團向這些業者下單嘛 對不對因為業者手上有這些資料 所以他霸團向他下單嘛但是呢 我必須提一個點我們這次我們知道的 我們最近一段時間我們很多科技執法的修法那你要知道 門號跟使用者位置 這個其實是符合通保法三之一條的通訊記錄資料"},{"start":340.379,"end":357.054,"text":"也就是說這些東西很多都是要檢察官申請法官核准才能調閱那如果中華電信今天什麼都不管就全部丟出去給業者那這個也很奇怪而且四字689號也有講得很清楚就是即使我們一般人在公開場合"},{"start":358.715,"end":386.534,"text":"我們的一些行為我們也有不受關注的權利我們在公開場合我們還是有一些個人隱私的主張的權利嘛而不是說中華電信你可以把所有的資料全部都給那些業者他們想怎麼用就怎麼用那我想請問一下各支委員會我們最近有民眾反映說他搬到中壢了他人搬到中壢了結果他在中壢有收到訊息啊那你們有沒有發覺這是怎麼回事"},{"start":388.185,"end":406.102,"text":"因為目前個資法他還是是一個分管的狀況所以因為我們目前我們個資籌備處是沒有調查的權限所以這個部分可能還是會變成是由各業別的目的事業主管機關他在個案他才有調查的權限那你們就沒有再管這一塊嗎"},{"start":407.069,"end":428.395,"text":"因為因為應該是說目前我們收到如果有收到民眾因為我目前其實也沒有收到民眾對我們有有任何的我要跟你講那個民眾還說那會不會我連我去汽車旅館就資料全部都被你們掌握他們現在擔心的這個點我可以去某一個汽車賣場然後你就知道我去過然後讓業者丟訊息丟汽車的訊息給我"},{"start":430.015,"end":450.306,"text":"那我去了哪一間企業旅館他會不會下次你就丟他的折下券給我這是那個民眾的質疑啦另外我上網看了一下這個簡訊的這個收費大概就0.7起跳到1.5所以當然我也會覺得說哇這些霸團真的超有錢的因為我拿到一個數據就內政部的一個公開數據啦"},{"start":451.847,"end":457.27,"text":"而且是112年11月電信信息人口統計光是新聞報導的這幾個區加起來電信使用人口有156萬3184人那如果說依據我們以最便宜的0.7塊來看好了以0.7塊的這個數字"},{"start":474.161,"end":495.213,"text":"如果說他真的都發的話大概要一百零九萬多啦那當然我不知道他到底發了多少了我們也蠻希望說這些罷團最後能夠公開這些經費的使用因為我國目前在這一塊法律上面建構不夠完全我們選舉 我們最後選舉經費要報到中選會去但是罷免卻不用"},{"start":496.013,"end":515.563,"text":"那他們錢哪裡來 怎麼用 都沒有人管所以現在好多個罷團 現在都發 內部都發生因為經費使用 有人私下去募款 有人錢不知道怎麼用就內部鬧哄哄 上次那個謝國良那個 他那個罷免案也是啊罷免完之後 到現在他們還在吵還在吵罷免那個經費的使用"},{"start":516.864,"end":534.611,"text":"所以這一塊內政部是有提說要修法啦但在修法之前這一次就天下大亂因為錢不知道哪裡來 不知道哪裡去這也是我們質疑的一個點啦那甚至有的比較更精確化的訊息是一折要一塊半所以這個費用是非常的驚人的"},{"start":535.919,"end":553.047,"text":"那我也不認為說資料可以讓大家這樣濫用一團是對國家的好事就像我剛剛說的現在很多詐欺集團他是利用這些所謂的簡訊代發業者所取得的資料去反推回去大家的習慣我講個很簡單的我的門號"},{"start":555.95,"end":582.262,"text":"立法院有 立法院在很多通訊欄上面 路上面也有把我的門號列出來那業 如果有人想要知道我的生活習慣而他不是 我不是偵查單位 不是檢查機關他就拿我的門號去跟這些業者去反求門 門號的使用紀錄就好了啊所以我到過哪裡 去過哪些賣場 我的整個脈絡就出來了所以這是我質疑的點 而且這個點是不分藍綠都要注意的風險"},{"start":583.602,"end":605.504,"text":"國人要注意的風險因為詐欺集團他要怎麼樣騙到你的錢如果你值得他騙的話如果你夠有錢值得他騙的話他就會花時間去分析你過往的記錄就像我們以前在做情事案件偵查的時候我會去分析這個被告他的生活習慣譬如他喜歡看不動產的資料我就會一直丟這種類似這種東西去給他去跟他談"},{"start":606.826,"end":621.207,"text":"所以我們會去分析對方的資料之後然後去攻破他去理解他到底在做什麼那我們不能讓這些個人的資料到最後變成是犯罪集團使用的工具這是我很在乎的一個點那中華電信我請教一下你們在"},{"start":622.489,"end":649.859,"text":"官網的行動寬頻服務契約書第37條你有寫到非依法或經乙方事先同意不得為收集目的以外之利用所以呢相關的資料記錄啊經過你們處理而且客觀上無法識別懷孕識別個人的可能的時候才能夠提供第三人使用但是在這段時間有非常多的例子大家都開始在那邊擔心說他可以經過很簡單的"},{"start":652.168,"end":670.074,"text":"反求就可以查出個人的資料就像健保資料庫的隱密性現在也被人家一直挑戰一樣那你們對於資料的個人資料的維護是遠低於健保資料庫那這個情況下我想請問一下中華電信有什麼做法嗎"},{"start":671.004,"end":689.415,"text":"根據人報告我現在順便跟大家說中華電信在各支的這些收集利用處理一定都是完全按照各支法去處理那在我們公司內部從內部的檢視到內控到內機到外部通過這些ISO的2700 27701 BS10012到我們通過國家標準的這一個"},{"start":696.104,"end":703.795,"text":"你講這個有答跟沒有答一樣我都依據各執法我經過什麼認證我都沒有問題但我們看到的是結論結論我跟你說明一下結論就是呢"},{"start":713.533,"end":729.952,"text":"今天很多人我當初去申請門號的時候甚至我門號是20年前申請的我沒有換過門號那我20年前申請我當時也不可能去勾選這個各自使用的同意書啊那甚至我勾選使用同意書我的範圍也沒有包括到政治活動"},{"start":731.449,"end":754.005,"text":"但是最近這是一個事實就變成有一些政治活動會利用這些發送簡訊或者是詐欺集團使用業者這些外面這個代理業者的資訊這個都已經是事實上的一個事實然後你在那邊跟我說我一切我符合各執法我一切我符合誰誰誰的認證但是我們看的是結論我們要處理的是社會問題"},{"start":755.586,"end":781.488,"text":"也跟委員報告那我為什麼先說明我們在這個部分一切有做這樣嚴謹的處理那另外一個電信公司它本身其實是一個傳輸網路的平台所以就現在爆炸的這個案或剛剛委員提到很多案例其實是來自於發訊端它的行為那我們在有關詐欺這個部分在NCC的指導跟警政機關合作其實我們也做了很多的措施"},{"start":782.148,"end":807.901,"text":"那就有講跟沒有講 都是他們的錯 千錯萬錯都是他們的錯但是業者 雖然中華電信是公司 但是業者 企業有社會責任每一個企業都有他的社會責任存在那你有沒有做適當的行政調查 這就是一個很重要的點你放任說 你用我的東西 我也不知道 反正是你犯罪不是我但是你可以做行政上的控管因為現在詐欺已經是全民痛恨的東西了"},{"start":808.681,"end":825.744,"text":"是不分你什麼政治傾向你什麼有的沒有的大家都不喜歡詐欺但是我一直講你詐欺像你剛剛說就交給警察交給誰其實這不對的所有的正確的反詐的處理是行政先行司法在末端補位"},{"start":826.545,"end":853.207,"text":"你一定要從最前端的NCC 金管會等等的他去把詐騙的簡訊控管掉把詐騙的廣告控管掉減少了詐欺的案件發生之後最後才由司法機關去查就現在大家都導致了司法機關衝第一線然後行政機關不管就排山倒海的詐騙廣告我常常收到欸我家人也常常收到欸那就表示控管出了問題啊那如果你認為說這個是"},{"start":854.994,"end":880.384,"text":"那個簡訊帶送業者的責任那我也不知道說那貴公司的企業的社會責任哪裡去了那個謝謝你的指導事實上我們在那個社會責任有關詐欺我們不管是在簡訊或通訊因為涉及到秘密通訊所以我們這個部分的也做了很多的那個處理那詐騙的簡訊它有很多的太陽我跟你講啦你自己看我現在這PowerPoint上面"},{"start":881.044,"end":909.738,"text":"你們收集了非常多的資料這是你們的廣告喔不是我們列出來的你告訴大家說你可以去哪裡收集到誰去哪裡的資料之後然後以行為分群來丟給這些人像你去有這個人常跑健身房你收集到他常跑健身房資料你就丟給他一些運動愛好的資訊這個是企業資訊上面商務上面使用沒有錯但是我跟你們說這個會導致返求之後會知道你很多資訊知道你去過哪裡"},{"start":910.738,"end":917.389,"text":"會有這個問題 而且這個已經實務上面發生那麼多了另外 我要跟你們提一下 最近簡訊待發業者"},{"start":919.437,"end":940.038,"text":"在五月份的時候發了一些那個訊息給他們的那些客戶裡面就有提到說要開始去查他們這些業他們來請求發送簡訊的這些人他們的資料等等的他們要求這些人提供那我的問題就是說五月"},{"start":941.189,"end":952.309,"text":"他們發了這些資訊然後說到九月底之前都會用勸導不開罰請問這是NCC的意見中央電信還有NZ都可以回答這是NCC嗎的意見到九月嗎"},{"start":953.154,"end":977.528,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告其實我們真的要求電信業的法徵是並沒有任何的時間限制那我看到九月我想那你們是不是要幹嘛要等到大罷免結束之後再來開始查嗎現階段不用查然後另外一件事情今天發送簡訊已經在台灣這麼多年了但是NCC以及中華電信貴公司都沒有去做行政上面的調查"},{"start":978.348,"end":997.102,"text":"這是怎麼回事我們都有依據個資法第22條還有我們電信管理法第90條進行個資檢查像這個個案我們就5月5號5月9號都進行兩次刑事檢查對三家電信業者如果你講的啦結果現在這些簡訊待發業者在5月12號發了一個到處發了一個這個訊"},{"start":999.564,"end":1014.011,"text":"訊息跟大家說之後每一個人委託發送簡訊人他們要提供相關的資料那過往都沒有耶而且他說九月之後才會開法耶所以我不知道我們的行政機關到底在做什麼真正該管的不管"},{"start":1015.769,"end":1042.459,"text":"這個造成國內的詐騙這麼嚴重的事情不管然後詐騙廣告不管簡訊發送不管個資會被冒用也不管什麼都不管然後今天一個一個點出來跟委員報告是這樣子說NCC對我們管的三大業者就是我們是有作用法來歸管他那他們跟上游大盤商那邊是用契約來約定但是他們也要求他們要做好KIC這一塊應該是末端的"},{"start":1042.799,"end":1057.158,"text":"末端的就待發業者的他的企客那一部分的他們都對他們的一些要求我跟你說啦 NCC是公家機關 也算政府機關是中立的嘛然後中華電信是公司嘛"},{"start":1058.171,"end":1085.258,"text":"那我只能跟兩位說啦我自己在實務上面經驗來看你們的管理上面有出很大的問題那如果你說我講錯或說你們經歷但是我們看到的是實務上面就是非常多的詐騙訊息非常多的我剛講的我給你一個門號我不用去做違法的調查我光是從這些業者代發業者所掌握的資訊我就可以回過頭去反求出你們每個人的"},{"start":1086.258,"end":1108.386,"text":"過去去過哪裡幹了什麼事情我覺得這樣對嗎 這樣從個資上面這樣OK嗎在NCC的職權範圍內我們都有都嚴格的把關這一塊那相關的末端的部分應該還有對應相關的主管機關來處理像資訊服務業或行銷公司這邊都不在NCC的職權範圍內最後我就說麻煩調查局還有法務部我剛剛講的"},{"start":1114.226,"end":1138.142,"text":"麻煩你們去弄清楚有沒有違反選罷法98條第一項第二款麻煩一下那我在這邊也再次的跟各位說第一個簡訊使用有沒有問題有沒有違反各自法再來你就麻煩全部都用選舉查查去核分叫底下調查官好好的處理還有有沒有違反98條你們自己可以看清清楚楚在那邊只要用違法的方式"},{"start":1139.042,"end":1145.575,"text":"做這些罷免的鼓動或要求大家不罷免這個都有違法請你們能夠就這部分去查查 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}