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過去的人依照這個標準 如果以我的標準 我會辦不是啦 我們一樣一樣來啦不要在那邊挪來挪去的啦第一個 規範上他不應該辦特殊查核他只是 就是基本上要辦一般查核對不起 規範上他要不要辦特殊查核 奇怪我的問題有這麼難理解嗎我在問你特殊查核 你一直在跟我扯一般查核"},{"start":75.492,"end":93.517,"text":"我的問題有這麼難理解嗎對不起我再說一次規範上他要不要做特殊查核規範上如果按照既有的規定是不必那你為什麼上次說要我認為他接觸的業務是要所以現在怎麼辦那就是由政風去辦理按照規定來辦理"},{"start":94.537,"end":106.934,"text":"按照什麼規定來辦 你現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊如果以他接觸的事物啊 我認為是要對嘛 現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊我有說錯嗎這不是你們上次外交部的同仁的回答嗎"},{"start":112.608,"end":137.416,"text":"我是部長我如果去任命這樣的一個人我是認為他所接觸的業務是需要特殊查核但是依照當時的規定到現在還是這個規定是沒有需要特殊查核到現在還是這個規定我們現在就是必須要改革改好了沒有現在行政院整體都在針對這樣還需要多久以及要任命的沒有關係啦還需要多久"},{"start":137.796,"end":153.157,"text":"改好了沒有 還需要多久這行政院會有整體的行政院整體的規劃我們大家都很了解啦一個基本的事實研議了六年 七年 八年例子不生沒舉啦現在出了一個這麼大的洞那你現在說"},{"start":154.605,"end":182.311,"text":"追下大白了嘛規範上不需要辦特殊查核但身為部長你不贊成嘛你認為應該要辦特殊查核嗎事後來看啦行政院現在正在進行作業當中還要作業多久不知道行政院在辦理中所以行政院要進行多久你也不知道沒關係嘛繼續拖嘛這不是很重要的事嗎應該辦特殊查核的事情沒有辦特殊查核現在變共諜啦"},{"start":184.085,"end":193.241,"text":"行政院說要檢討這件事情發生到現在多久啦檢討到今天還在檢討部長你對於行政院的效率滿意嗎"},{"start":194.892,"end":223.358,"text":"我當然尊重行政院他綜合因為他那麼多的部會他在辦理但對外交部我們的政風調查報告已經完成我認為如果實質的判定他接觸的業務是需要查核啦但是當時在最早任命的時候因為還不知道他會接觸什麼業務嘛所以那個時候跟在吳釗燮還旁邊還不知道他會接觸什麼業務在外交部部長辦公室裡面收機密文件還不知道他會接觸什麼業務"},{"start":225.024,"end":225.709,"text":"所以是規範有問題還是吳釗燮有問題"},{"start":228.936,"end":249.066,"text":"我想規範就是說是死的嘛可是這個人的任命因為他是用所謂一等之役那這樣的聘用是可以不用辦特殊查只要辦一般查規範上面這種人不用辦特殊查的現在結果來看嫌有不足是嘛所以我個人認為如果接駐業務的職職你到現在都還在研議嘛你沒有說錯嗎我們政風已經調查完畢而且對於改進的應該要去做一些改進啦"},{"start":258.271,"end":284.007,"text":"沒有關係啦 我們拭目以待嘛這麼重要的事情我們拭目以待嘛看卓榮泰要拖多久嘛來 第二題我去年有問你卡貝的事情喔蠻有趣的啦你們外交部的業務報告從過去比較常用的詞叫做價值外交到這一次 卓榮泰新的施政報告出現一個新的名詞叫總和外交"},{"start":285.538,"end":296.797,"text":"從價值外交啊 到總和外交啊總和外交有包括金錢外交嗎沒有沒有嘛 好那我的問題還是一樣我們會不會幫其他國家繳卡貝的股款"},{"start":298.089,"end":313.181,"text":"我們希望說我們已經在一些國際組織包括這些金融系統的角色上善用花錢繳我們自己的股款我作為民意代表我OK啊我支持啊花台灣納稅的錢繳台灣的股款我OK我現在的問題一模一樣花台灣納稅的錢去幫外國繳股款外交部同不同意"},{"start":323.443,"end":337.116,"text":"我想我們一定是按照規定來辦理那我們必須要去善用包括咖啡 包括亞銀 包括歐銀同意 沒錯我是認為要去好好的發揮我們在這裡面的角色所以我們要確保我們的影響力"},{"start":340.229,"end":361.406,"text":"所以要確保影響力的方式是幫其他外國繳股款嗎是嗎一定基於我們國家的利益在做整體的考慮跟佈局所以你還是沒有答案嗎我想有機會我會跟委員詳細說明在總和外交上這一些政策工序是很重要的總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎"},{"start":364.023,"end":383.129,"text":"總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎對 就是去發揮我們的影響力確保後果是有利於國家利益我明確的跟部長講啦這件事情上面我們有價值立場的不同我表達我的立場你只要清楚表達外交部的立場就好了"},{"start":383.905,"end":410.851,"text":"我們的價值立場不同我支持民主 我支持價值外交但是 拿台灣人的錢去繳 幫其他國家繳股款對不起啊 我不懂 這個是什麼外交我跟委員說明嘛 比如說我們的總和外交 經濟外交我們過去是援助 現在加強投資那怎麼樣善用我們在國際市場銀行你要去外國投資是一回事啊去外國投資 那東西還是我們的啦"},{"start":411.803,"end":433.153,"text":"你要拿台灣人的錢去做婦女的父權去照顧當地貧窮的小孩讓他們受教育從普世價值來講我都贊成但是你拿台灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款這是哪門子的外交啊這不是金錢外交什麼是金錢外交"},{"start":434.213,"end":452.085,"text":"這不是啦 這個我們在裡面有骨折 我們可以善用來融融計畫你說這絕對不是金錢外交嘛但我就認為這就是金錢外交我做部長任內 我不會用金錢外交因為我長期 你對我也了解啦你不會做金錢外交 但是你會拿台灣獎罪人的錢去幫人家繳股款"},{"start":452.865,"end":477.153,"text":"任何的方式只要有助於我們國家的利益包括拿台灣的錢去幫人家繳股款不是 那個都是手段那個目的是為了要來捍衛我們外交上面那這個籠幫計畫跟以前只是在繳繳不繳是兩回事啦謝謝委員的指導我們會善用每一筆預算包括去幫國家其他"},{"start":478.073,"end":506.81,"text":"繳股款不管用什麼方法合法的然後我們用大大聲聲這樣講跟國際的合作作為立法委員我們需要讓人民知道錢到哪裡去了嘛我有說錯嗎所以我才具體的問你嘛是不是要拿去幫其他國家繳股款是就是嘛你確定了這個事實以後確定了這個事實要怎麼評價每一個人心裡都有一把尺啊是我同意委員講的目的啦一定要達到不然的話這會被人家批評"},{"start":507.773,"end":509.48,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，上次見面的時候，我問你何仁傑的事情，他是不是該辦特殊查核而沒有辦？你跟我說「是」，然後你說政風室會回去處理，一個禮拜會有結果，結果下一次在外交國防委員會的時候，那個時候你應該是有要公沒有來，結果真相大白，你們外交部翻供說何仁傑本來就不用辦特殊查核，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：基本上，規定是要辦一般查核，但他所接觸的業務應該辦特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：但沒有辦嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這是過去嘛！過去是依照當時的標準，如果以我的標準，我會辦啦！"],["黃委員國昌：不是，我們一樣一樣來啦！不要在那邊挪來挪去的。第一個，規範上他應不應該辦特殊查核？"],["林部長佳龍：基本上他要辦一般查核。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，規範上他要不要辦特殊查核？奇怪！我的問題有這麼難理解嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：以他的職務……"],["黃委員國昌：我在問你特殊查核，你一直在跟我扯一般查核。"],["林部長佳龍：我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題有這麼難理解嗎？對不起，我再說一次，規範上他要不要做特殊查核？"],["林部長佳龍：規範上如果按照既有的規定是不必。"],["黃委員國昌：你為什麼上次說要？"],["林部長佳龍：我認為他接觸的業務是要。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在怎麼辦？"],["林部長佳龍：就是由政風單位按照規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：按照什麼規定來辦理？現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我以他接觸的事務，我認為是要。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：可是按照規定他不用，如果這個規定如果不足……"],["黃委員國昌：我有說錯嗎？這不是你們上次外交部同仁的回答嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我是部長，如果要去任命這樣的一個人，我是認為他所接觸的業務是需要特殊查核，但是依照當時的規定，到現在還是這個規定，是沒有需要特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：到現在還是這個規定？"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在就是必須要改革。"],["黃委員國昌：改好了沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：現在行政院整體都在針對這樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：這還需要多久？"],["林部長佳龍：以機要任命的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！還需要多久？改好了沒有？還需要多久？"],["林部長佳龍：這行政院會有整體的規劃，會成立一個跨部會小組。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院整體的規劃，我們大家都很了解啦！一個基本的事實，研議了6年、7年、8年，例子不勝枚舉啦！現在出了一個這麼大的洞，你現在說……真相大白了，規範上必須要辦特殊查核，但身為部長，你不贊成嘛！你認為應該要辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：事後來看，以我的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院現在正在進行作業當中，還要作業多久？不知道？"],["林部長佳龍：行政院在辦理中，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以行政院要進行多久，你也不知道？沒關係嘛！繼續拖，這不是很重要的事嗎？應該辦特殊查核的事情沒有辦特殊查核，現在變共諜啦！行政院說要檢討，這件事情發生到現在多久了，檢討到今天還在檢討，部長對於行政院的效率滿意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我當然尊重行政院，因為他們要綜合那麼多的部會，但我們外交部的政風調查報告已經完成，我們認為如果實質的判定，他接觸的業務是需要查核的，但是當時在最早任命的時候，因為還不知道他會接觸什麼業務，所以那個時候的時任部長……"],["黃委員國昌：跟在吳釗燮旁邊，還不知道他會接觸什麼業務？在外交部部長辦公室裡面收機密文件，還不知道他會接觸什麼業務？所以是規範有問題，還是吳釗燮有問題？"],["林部長佳龍：規範是死的，可是這個人的任命，因為他是用所謂一等諮議，這樣的聘用方式是可以不用辦特殊查核，只要辦一般查核。"],["黃委員國昌：規範上就是有人不用辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：現在以結果來看，顯有不足。所以我個人認為，如果以接觸業務的實質……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！所以我才問你要搞多久嘛！你到現在都還在研議，我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們政風已經調查完畢，而且應該要去做一些改進啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們拭目以待嘛！這麼重要的事情，我們拭目以待嘛！看卓榮泰要拖多久？第二個，我去年有問你CABEI的事情，蠻有趣的啦！你們外交部的業務報告，從過去比較常用的詞叫價值外交，到這次卓榮泰新的施政報告出現新的名詞叫總合外交，從價值外交到總合外交，總合外交有包括金錢外交嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有嘛！好，我的問題還是一樣，我們會不會幫其他國家繳CABEI的股款？"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經在一些國際組織包括這一些金融機構的角色，要善用……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這我了解，我們花錢繳我們自己的股款，我作為民意代表，我OK啦！我支持啦！花臺灣納稅人的錢繳臺灣的股款，我OK，我現在的問題一模一樣，花臺灣納稅人的錢去幫外國繳股款，外交部同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定是按照規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["林部長佳龍：我們必須要去善用，包括CABEI、亞銀、歐銀、美銀……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯。"],["林部長佳龍：我是認為要去好好發揮我們在這裡面的角色。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們要不要幫外國繳股款？"],["林部長佳龍：我們要確保我們的影響力。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要確保影響力的方式是要幫其他國家繳股款嗎？是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定基於我們國家的利益，再做整體的考慮及布局。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還是沒有答案？"],["林部長佳龍：有機會我會跟委員詳細說明，在總合外交上，這一些政策工具是很重要，不代表過去是沒用，我不會把它拿來用。"],["黃委員國昌：總合外交不包括金錢外交，但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是去發揮我們的影響力。"],["黃委員國昌：對喔？"],["林部長佳龍：確保後果是有利於國家利益。"],["黃委員國昌：我明確的跟部長講，這件事情上面，我們有價值立場的不同，我表達我的立場，你只要清楚表達外交部的立場就好了，我們的價值立場不同，我支持民主，我支持價值外交，但是拿臺灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，對不起啦！我不懂這個是什麼外交。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，比如我們總合外交有經濟外交，我們過去是援助，現在是加強投資，怎麼樣善用我們在國際組織的銀行……"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下，你要去外國投資是一回事啦！去外國投資的東西還是我們的，你們要拿臺灣人的錢去做婦女的婦權，去照顧當地貧窮的小孩，讓他們受教育，從普世價值來講，我都贊成，但是你們拿臺灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，這是哪門子的外交啊！這不是金錢外交什麼是金錢外交。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是啦！我們這裡面有股權，我們可以善用榮邦計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛！你就繼續堅持你的說法，說這絕對不是金錢外交嘛！但我就認為這就是金錢外交。"],["林部長佳龍：我做部長任內是不會用金錢外交，因為我長期……"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["林部長佳龍：你對我也了解，我一定是以國家的外交利益。"],["黃委員國昌：你不會做金錢外交，但是你會拿臺灣人民的納稅錢去幫人家繳股款，我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：任何的方式只要有助於我們國家的利益，我們都應該要去努力。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！包括拿臺灣人的錢去幫人家繳股款。"],["林部長佳龍：不是，那個都是手段，目的是為了要來捍衛我們外交上面，而這個榮邦計畫跟以前只是在繳，繳不繳是兩回事啦！謝謝委員的指導，我們會善用每一筆預算。"],["黃委員國昌：包括去幫其他國家繳股款。"],["林部長佳龍：不管用什麼方法，合法的，然後我們用這些跟國際間的合作，包括跟……"],["黃委員國昌：就大大聲聲這樣講嘛！作為立法委員，我們需要讓人民知道錢到哪裡去了嘛！我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，所以怎麼去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才具體的問你，是不是要拿去幫其他國家繳股款？是就是嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：任何不管是不是……"],["黃委員國昌：確定了這個事實以後，確定了這個事實要怎麼評價？每個人心裡都有一把尺啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是，我同意委員講的，目的一定要達到，不然這會被人家批評，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢。","接下來由楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}