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民進黨的吳思堯 我也強調說辦案啊不能夠選擇性辦案一定要公正跟公平"},{"start":52.728,"end":79.99,"text":"那我的了解中選會這次這個罷免這個連署啊罷免民進黨的移送了16個案子罷免國民黨的移送了15個案子16比15結果啊從數量上來看國民黨大概辦案每個案都辦了而且大收手又大收押民進黨現在只辦了兩個案子馬上就請回了補定 我先請到補定從質跟量"},{"start":81.709,"end":91.468,"text":"辦國民黨是這樣辦的大收手大收押然後民進黨是這樣辦這個符合剛剛吳思瑤說的沒有譴責性辦案是公正公平的嗎"},{"start":92.723,"end":121.121,"text":"我想檢常在 我相信檢常在辦案就是依照證據證據來認定犯罪事實那我也尊重檢常對個案的一個偵查規劃我們不能夠用就是辦哪個黨派幾件或哪個黨派幾件來去衡量就是說這個司法辦案是有雙標所以我們還回到個案的犯罪情節跟整個證據不一樣所以這個委員會講說這部分我是不同意啦"},{"start":121.82,"end":144.787,"text":"你最少嘛 就是中選會送過去了罷免國民黨那幾個案子啊 十五個案子啊光是那個進度啊 你就沒辦法跟人民交代啦你國民黨雷厉風情 幾乎每天一個案子一個案子在辦民進黨你十五個案子丟在那裡我委員跟不清楚喔 這個案件是要看證據的啦不是說看人家給他辦幾個啦那中選會嚴重失職喔 中選會沒有證據他為什麼要移送十五個案子過去那裡你是在打臉中選會嗎"},{"start":150.098,"end":158.784,"text":"這個沒有答案 這個中選會就是你是在搭理中選會嗎因為中選不是辦案單位嘛所以不會辦案機關所以他給辦案機關來一個告發那有辦案機關 只有個案來證據的蒐集然後做一個認定 偵查規約來做一個辦案所以這個並沒有矛盾啊有沒有選擇性辦案 有沒有辦男不辦女人民眼睛是血亮的我剛剛講得過清楚了大家看"},{"start":176.255,"end":189.723,"text":"明天就是賴總統91週年了也是你當法務部長一年了然後講不光彩賴總統的滿意度今天聯合報最新的剛剛公佈的不滿意度高達53%這個是我們從1997年明顯總統以來從李登輝開始五年來總統民調最低的前幾天TPPS的民調也很嚴重"},{"start":207.025,"end":220.555,"text":"不滿意的不滿意度啊比聯合報做得還高55%耶今天我特別要問的大家知道嗎TPS做的民調啊人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤博定你先休息一下我先請教司法院的司法院長久也是受到尊敬的啊可是最近這一兩年沒有發現整個那個每次那個民調裡面"},{"start":238.197,"end":248.105,"text":"司法體系從司法減掉受到人民很多的質疑父母你看看不滿意度高達58%滿意的人才30會不會覺得很不民主臉上無光你們有沒有做一些檢討"},{"start":261.254,"end":271.852,"text":"你之前檢討的是中文字嘛 對不對 那個案對中方那個案子嘛 對不對其實最近案子真的還不少我現在TBS公佈完已經兩三天了嘛司法院內部應該沒有再檢討嗎"},{"start":275.536,"end":288.803,"text":"報告委員其實我們司法同仁大部分司法同仁都非常認真敬業這幾年負擔非常大因為案件成長非常多我們的同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣我想這個民調"},{"start":291.984,"end":315.655,"text":"因為這個原因沒有分析嘛就是說他很有可能是因為近期己見就是那個被判有罪那個被告潛逃啊這個部分因為民眾會有那個近期印象那我想這部分我們司法院確實就如之前所說的我們確實是應該要那個深圳檢討對我們希望深圳檢討然後找出一些答案做一些改革好不好你先來我請我請這部長是複密說他們司法院有深圳在檢討發不播有做了一些檢討嗎"},{"start":322.25,"end":338.171,"text":"我們希望我們都相信檢查債辦案都是依法公正安全按照證據來認定犯罪事實那回應民眾的一個期待那我想這個整個一個民調都是任何的民調我們都是會做一個"},{"start":339.292,"end":345.695,"text":"我們現在嚴重的就是最近的時候不是好像今天在看TBS的最近的時候有做的民調大家對檢調都搖頭啦你看政治 但是民主社會啊你看民進黨去辦那個下鄉叫什麼 人民是頭家 人民當家頭家已經死了"},{"start":358.083,"end":370.652,"text":"不是跟TVBS 你看TVBS不滿意五成八 滿意的才三十因為我不曉得我們那個委員是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦 因為我也不曉得啦那我覺得 你說一個罷免 罷免的連署大家就害怕了 你還不知道要對一個案來來來"},{"start":377.117,"end":392.985,"text":"你說案子可多你要問我哪一個案子你光是柯文哲最近那個我們不要再談個案你不談個案你問我哪一個案子對啊案子可多咧剛剛負面都還知道說有中文字這個案子人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省對不對"},{"start":393.985,"end":410.644,"text":"阿你這個連署問題你讓人家覺得說你是辦案不案例那完全沒有公正公平選擇性辦案阿你自己都不檢討 完全不能割案的話就是按照證據來辦案喔那我們講辦案本來就是就是完全回復到證據來做一個認定嘛我們現在是民主社會啦"},{"start":412.506,"end":429.987,"text":"你的每一分的你的領的錢都是民脂民膏第二個我剛才說的民進黨去辦活動 他們也是說人民是老闆啊那你從每次的民調 老闆都跟你說了喔不滿意度已經那麼高了而且老實講你們是賴清德十一項重大的施政裡面最慘的耶"},{"start":434.21,"end":443.432,"text":"十一項裡面最慘的耶今天不是也有個民調嗎?五成八的民眾認為政治利益介入的減掉介入的司法"},{"start":444.605,"end":468.445,"text":"我來講不是一個民調 這個我不同意啦這個什麼正在介入司法我不同意我也希望就是說部分任何的黨派對司法都要給司法一個辦案的純正空間我也不希望說在哪個地方去對司法做一個施壓用群眾的力量去做一個施壓那我想各界的聲音我們都會仔細去聽法定 你是法母堡的大家長啦"},{"start":469.426,"end":488.969,"text":"你有責任讓法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有方的啦現在就是討厭了嘛結果你還一直在這邊強辯你的責任是什麼第一個你是頭是到家長啊對不對老講總統為什麼任命你當法務部長我相信不是來當打手或者讓人民不信任你對不對檢察官一個純淨的一個檢調純淨的辦案空間純淨的辦案空間這個請委員能夠支持部長"},{"start":497.745,"end":519.025,"text":"你接這個華為部長職要做什麼事情?第一個你一定要有好的歷史定位嘛對不對?你對過去三年,可能後來要做三年四年,可以做八年好不好?你留下來這段時間的58%的不滿意那你要去改啊,而且你是大家長啊你要讓你下面的人可以服氣啊"},{"start":521.442,"end":531.45,"text":"好來 我們來看某些案子最近啊 為什麼人民那麼不滿剛才說過 史幻林逼到中文字這個案子這一個案子 小林有控嗎這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿之前南檢在辦的時候 起訴的時候大家講說 哎 終於有動了"},{"start":546.024,"end":554.93,"text":"就台北地驗他竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳仲諺雖然那個袋裡面都清清楚楚就有陳仲諺那個圖像啊現在剛剛司法為什麼被那麼多的質疑剛才吳思瑤說一定要公正嘛不要選擇性辦案嘛你這段時間你看你最近這幾年來民進黨的不只陳仲諺"},{"start":573.154,"end":601.731,"text":"要嘛跑掉了對不對棄保險要嘛跑掉了要嘛就輕判更嚴重很多都是無罪你們還負責監聽你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚多少證據也都沒問題所以人民為什麼會58%就現在看來好像是這車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛國民黨就送飯嘛那個落差太大嘛"},{"start":603.254,"end":627.79,"text":"柯文哲不是這樣嗎柯文哲的案子你看最近這幾天你傳朱瑤虎來法官是獨立審判是不會做任我們不應該要給法官做任何的一些的一個干涉你剛問我哪個案子就是因為最近的太多案子人民都有很多意見你柯文哲你看你的北檢找了朱瑤虎去當證人要咬個柯文哲就弄到連"},{"start":629.619,"end":644.276,"text":"他自己講說什麼柯文哲跟沈千青碰面裡面談到尖華城 結果他正常是用推測的他整個人在外面 他就跑去看朋友結果他可以這樣推測那第二個210 他也沒有任何證據結果呢 你們北檢可以把他當成一個重要的證據起訴柯文哲"},{"start":645.397,"end":663.804,"text":"柯文哲跟沈憲爺講裡面都有不正訊問這個是被法院審理說到底這個政經能力有沒有夠證明的話我想法官會獨立審判所以你看那麼多案子都有問題的時候我們要給法官一個獨立的一個辦案的一個空間我們尊重我們也都非常尊重法院的判決至於證據夠不夠那個是在法庭公訪的問題那是一個舉證的問題"},{"start":665.626,"end":677.5,"text":"那我想這個既然在法院審理中我們要給法院一個獨立純淨的辦公空間所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院是什麼審判不獨立或者是不公正的一個問題那我們完全從證據來做一個認定"},{"start":681.284,"end":696.584,"text":"用證據的公法一切用法定程序用法律的一些的規範來做一個證據跟審判那我想這個我必須要尊重司法當有人民25萬人上街頭已經吶喊在怒火了當所有民調都能呈現"},{"start":698.012,"end":715.387,"text":"司法改革是崩盤的大家對於黨檢沒議題有那麼多的質疑人民也透過民調跟你講了我們期待看到從代總統到司法院到檢調有一些檢討我相信是不是在強辯你有沒有解決問題還是越講人民越生氣"},{"start":718.529,"end":736.216,"text":"再過個幾天新的民調又出來就會打臉你了我覺得我們就看人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來我剛特別提醒你一個點你是賴清德十一項重大施政裡面最慘的不滿意最高的滿意度最低的光是這點你就要趕快好好去檢討了好來我來請教那個蜂蜜吳思瑤啊前幾天就在這裡造謠"},{"start":747.864,"end":750.446,"text":"他說啊 法庭直播需要593億會不會妳那天好像也在場對不對是哪來的 593億"},{"start":765.048,"end":790.229,"text":"法庭直播需要593億嗎我想他需要那個經費是看他那個計算基準如果說是要每一個法庭就是然後都那個硬體那個建置的話他事實上那個費用很高沒有錯我先跟你講我們現在在詢詢對不對在詢答現在都是前程直播啊你知道嗎立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播我們八個委員會嘛對不對一年你知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":795.106,"end":820.275,"text":"保安委員這部分我不瞭解胡思堯說要593億這是將近593倍的造謠耶立凡一年的直播費用一億怎麼可以這樣造謠呢這是將近600倍的造謠太離譜了"},{"start":821.553,"end":832.04,"text":"所以我今天把真相跟大家講這是第一點錢不需要這麼多第二個台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚啊我們是針對什麼特定重要的社會矚目案件啊你說凱凱案大家關不關心很關心柯文哲案子大家關不關心很關心啊重大的社會矚目案件才要撥啊所以不是所有庭都在撥嘛是不是"},{"start":853.737,"end":875.749,"text":"所以請不要再造謠了錢第一個本來沒有那麼多第二個民眾黨非常的負責我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的這個案件好不好所以不是叫你所有的全部都要補沒有而且提出來當事人提出來之後你們還可以還可以決定說這個是不是屬於真正的特定重大的社會矚目案件啊"},{"start":877.13,"end":897.016,"text":"那個報告委員即使是那個重大矚目的那個案件的話他跟整個那個審判那個制度就是為了要追求一個公正的那個判決這常常那個有時候那個目的經過那個法庭直播之後是會受到影響的這個部分必須要非常審慎這個直播是你們"},{"start":899.915,"end":923.04,"text":"開這個私改國事會議早就定了欸2017年蔡英文總統召開的私改國事會議欸裡面喔 念一段文字給你聽好不好私改國事會議是有做出建議那但是它還是必須要經過那個主管機關非常負責跟審慎那個周延的那個評估才有辦法去實行的"},{"start":924.54,"end":950.695,"text":"我先唸一下當初那個決議之後整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的意見這部分都可以去看的一步一步來啦 第一 當初的結論是什麼107年司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播預計在執行意見後一年內要完成草案函請立法院審議這樣有夠清楚了吧"},{"start":952.482,"end":974.412,"text":"總統有開的耶而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情嘛而且老實講 後來國民黨 民進黨都提案啊就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子啊這是當初的結論啊你可以看啊 這個有啊 對不對那你就跳票啊 欺騙大眾啊而且全世界很多先進國家都在直播"},{"start":981.977,"end":1009.888,"text":"鄉民逮捕那個案子最清楚 你看六個人在看而且這老實講 這是救我 要求你們這個司法公正性 司法改革崩盤被人家質疑一個很好的一個藥啦你這是公開透明嘛在那個直播過程裡面大家會發現檢察官的這個起訴的這個內容他到底有沒有揉製罪名有沒有把重要的這個關鍵的這個筆錄把它蓋起來有沒有不正的這個詢問"},{"start":1012.54,"end":1024.605,"text":"你明明是頭家啊 全世界都是這樣子你國內的這個私改 奪私會也是這樣啊怎麼可以現在反而倒退入然後我剛剛跟你講 經費上也不是問題啊沒有吳思堯 趙有那麼多錢啊好 民眾黨會已經提出版本了我們現在禁錮二讀了嘛我們現在禁錮二讀了"},{"start":1034.928,"end":1057.84,"text":"那我跟你講我們很期待得到司法院跟法務部的這個支持然後講這個不是為了個人任何一個人這是為了台灣整個司法改革也為了司法整個國公該透明這個是就目前就你們啦救命司法院跟檢調體系這段時間受到質疑很好很重要的一大步我今天要趕快跨出去"},{"start":1059.091,"end":1082.635,"text":"報告員其實目前的那個法庭公開其實就已經非常的公開透明了所有公開的案件所有的司法記者跟官信人都可以進到裡面去看那但是呢就是說法庭公開跟要直播這是完全不同的那個事情就是這些影像是立刻會無遠弗屆那個出去的對於所有參與訴訟的這個人包括被告不是"},{"start":1082.935,"end":1107.692,"text":"不是只有公務員 包括所有進到法庭去的這些被告證人 鑑定人 事實上他們的隱私權還有他們那個人格權 那個保護都必須要非常審慎的去評估所以不密 那為什麼美國 歐美他們為什麼都在直播那個跟委員報告 這部分司法院有做過其實大部分的那個先進國家都是那個反對 而且立法也規定說不能夠法庭直播 像德國 法國"},{"start":1108.573,"end":1112.337,"text":"日本有規定可以但是他們實務上從來都不做那歐陸國家幾乎整排通通都是五行做的美國有聯邦跟各邦聯邦法院也幾乎通通都是不能夠做只有開放各邦那如果真的要談的話"},{"start":1126.693,"end":1151.912,"text":"美國他事實上他只有很少那個案件是進入到那個陪審團去大部分更不進入訴訟的所以說他們幫的那個考量他會有其他那個特殊的考量那跟我們就是這種職業法系的那個國家考量完全是不一樣的而且要法庭直播事實上是增加當事人的負擔因為你影音出去的時候那個在現代那個影音時代你去就是如果當事人希望直播呢"},{"start":1152.967,"end":1166.004,"text":"你為什麼幫當事人決定說他不要直播呢第二個我剛講過了吧那當初為什麼蔡英文的司法國事會議他要這樣定那時候是產官學所有人都在包括你們司法院的代表但是包括我們這個議案"},{"start":1168.307,"end":1194.658,"text":"可以看一下那個當時的那個輿論其實大部分都是反對那司法院除了做那個就是委託案學者那個委託案之外我們也做過了好幾次的那個就是公聽會也有做過那個學術研討會就是焦點團體的學術研討會大部分的幾乎通通都是反對的怎麼你聽到聲音跟社會的大眾都是不一樣的我們還特別去做民調我們說我們做的是焦點團體的我們還特別去做民調你來來來我聽不聽得懂知不知詞"},{"start":1198.168,"end":1207.553,"text":"針對特定的重大社會矚目案件進行法庭的公開直播支持度多少 你知道嗎7乘5耶 不支持只有19.5耶差四百耶"},{"start":1212.036,"end":1228.024,"text":"今天我們在那個議場的時候法官協會剛剛也發了一份聲明他們也是對於這個非常質疑的對於法庭直播非常質疑所以這件事情真的必須要非常審慎的評估因為一旦開放之後就沒有辦法回頭了"},{"start":1229.468,"end":1257.517,"text":"各種聲音都有啦 那我剛剛跟你講了我沿用的第一個是我們做過民調第二個 之前蔡政府提出來的司法改革會議的結論要你們提版本嘛然後後來國民黨跟民進黨各黨的連時代力量立法院都有提案喔都有提啊那全世界也有一些先進國家都有做啊那現在老蔣沒有錯 我剛剛講的一個更嚴重的這對目前來講就是因為司法不受到信任你讓陽光射進來嘛"},{"start":1259.301,"end":1281.686,"text":"讓一些重大的案子讓人民可以看得到嘛不是老闆讓人民來有一個公開透明的過程嘛現在目前一些重要的案子現在法庭公開大家都已經可以去旁聽了絕大部分都進不去吧對不對你有看到柯文哲每次開庭前一天的晚前一天大概下午就一堆人在那邊排隊根本都進不去啊你們是不是這樣你們北院每次只要柯文哲"},{"start":1289.517,"end":1297.063,"text":"明天還要開庭 你今天下午去看下午就有人在那邊排了就是一路人進不去嘛連我們立法委人家進去旁聽都聽不了啊讓全民可以公開透明讓陽光射進我們的法庭 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時3分）請司法院王副秘書長、法務部鄭部長、調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：麻煩王副秘書長、鄭部長、吳副局長。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才民進黨吳思瑤委員強調，辦案不能選擇性辦案，一定要公正跟公平，根據我的了解，中選會對於這次的罷免連署，罷免民進黨的移送了16個案子，罷免國民黨的移送了15個案子，16比15，從數量上來看，國民黨大概每個案都辦了，而且大搜索又大收押，民進黨現在只辦了兩個案子，馬上就請回了。我先請教部長，從質跟量來看，辦國民黨是這樣辦的，大搜索、大收押，然後民進黨是這樣辦，這個符合剛剛吳思瑤說的沒有選擇性辦案，是公正、公平的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信檢察官在辦案時就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實，我也尊重檢察官對個案的偵查規劃，我們不能用辦哪個黨派幾件或哪個黨派幾件去衡量說司法辦案有雙標，所以我們還是要回到個案的犯罪情節跟整個證據的不一樣，所以委員講的這個部分我是不同意啦。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最少中選會送過去罷免國民黨的15個案子，光是那個進度你就沒辦法跟人民交代了，對國民黨是雷厲風行，幾乎每天一個案、一個案的在辦，民進黨的15個案子就丟在那裡！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員可能不清楚，辦案是要看證據的啦，不是說看你要不要辦……"],["張委員啓楷：中選會嚴重失職囉！中選會沒有證據，為什麼要移送15個案子過去你那裡？你在打臉中選會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有打臉，中選會就是認為一些可能的……"],["張委員啓楷：你在打臉中選會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為中選會不是辦案機關，所以它向辦案機關告發，由辦案機關去就個案來做證據的蒐集，做認定，偵查規劃，辦案，所以這個並沒有矛盾啊。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有選擇性辦案，有沒有辦藍不辦綠，人民眼睛是雪亮的，我剛剛講得夠清楚了。","明天就是賴總統就職一周年，也是你當法務部長一年了，老實講，不光彩啦。今天聯合報的最新公布賴總統的滿意度，不滿意度高達53%，這是我們從1997年民選總統以來，從李登輝開始，5位總統中民調最低的。前幾天TVBS的民調不滿意也很嚴重，不滿意度比聯合報的調查結果還高，有55%。今天我特別要問，大家知道嗎？TVBS做的民調，人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤。","部長，你先休息一下，我先請教司法院，司法院長久也是受到尊敬的，可是最近這一、兩年，有沒有發現每次民調的數字顯示，司法體系從司法、檢調都受到人民很多質疑，副秘書長你看一下，不滿意度高達58%，滿意的人才只有30%，會不會覺得很沒面子、臉上無光？你們有沒有檢討？你之前檢討的是鍾文智被縱放的那個案子，對不對？其實最近案子真的還不少耶！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在TVBS公布完民調結果已經兩、三天了，司法院內部沒有檢討嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，其實大部分的司法同仁都非常認真敬業，這幾年真的負擔非常大，因為案件成長非常多，我們同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣，我想這個民調因為原因沒有分析，很有可能是因為近期幾件案子的關係，就是被判有罪的被告潛逃，這個部分因為民眾會有近期印象，我想這部分司法院確實就如之前所說的，我們確實是應該要深自檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：我們希望你們能深自檢討，然後找出答案，做一些改革，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，副秘說他們司法院有深自檢討，法務部有做一些檢討嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都相信檢察官辦案都是依法、公正，完全按照證據來認定犯罪事實，回應民眾的期待，有關任何民調的結果我們都會列為參考……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在嚴重的就是，不是只有剛剛讓你看的TVBS，最近所有做的民調，大家對檢調都搖頭了，我們是民主社會，你看民進黨下鄉去辦人民是頭家、人民當家，但老闆已經生氣了，不是只有TVBS的民調如此，TVBS民調的不滿意度五成八，滿意的才30%……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我也不曉得委員認為是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦，我現在……"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛有跟你說了啊，光是一個罷免的連署大家就都搖頭了，你還不知道哪一個案子！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我……"],["張委員啓楷：來，你說什麼案子，案子可多了，你問我哪一個案子，光是柯文哲最近那個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不要再談個案！"],["張委員啓楷：不談個案，你問我哪一個案子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！因為……"],["張委員啓楷：案子可多咧！剛剛副秘都還知道有鍾文智這個案子，人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省，對不對？你們辦藍綠連署的案子辦得「離離落落」，讓人家覺得你是辦藍不辦綠，完全沒有公正、公平……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有辦藍不辦綠，我們完全是……"],["張委員啓楷：選擇性辦案啊！你自己都不檢討！"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的話，就是按照證據來辦案，我們講辦案本來就是回到證據來認定嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們現在是民主社會，你領的每一分錢都是民脂民膏。第二個，我剛才說的，民進黨辦活動時也說人民是頭家，從每次的民調顯示，老闆都跟你說了不滿意度已經那麼高了，而且老實講，你是賴清德11項重大施政裡面最慘的耶！前幾天不是有一個民調，美麗島電子報怎麼說的？五成八的民眾認為政治力介入檢調、介入司法，我告訴你，不是只有一個民調，你自己去翻最近的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不同意啦！什麼政治介入司法，我不同意，我也希望不分任何黨派，都要給司法一個辦案的純淨空間，我也不希望在哪個地方去對司法施壓，用群眾的力量去施壓，我想各界的聲音，我們都會仔細去聽。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是法務部的大家長，你有責任讓法法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有風的，現在就是「頭犁犁」嘛，結果你還一直在這邊強辯，你的責任是什麼？第一個，你是頭、是大家長啊，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信……"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，總統為什麼任命你當法務部長？我相信不是找你來當打手，或者讓人民不信任你，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我當法務部部長就是要維護檢察官、檢調有一個純淨的辦案空間，這個請委員能夠支持。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你接這個法務部長是要做什麼事情？第一個，你一定要有一個好的歷史定位，對不對？過一陣子，就算讓你做三年、四年，再做八年，好不好？你留下的是這段時間有58%的不滿意，你就要去改啊！而且你是大家長，你要讓下面的人可以服氣啊！","我們來談某些案子。最近為什麼人民那麼不滿？剛才說過，司法院除了鍾文智的這個案子之外，最近有個案子是小芸有空嗎？這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿？之前南檢在辦、在起訴的時候，大家說終於有動了，結果臺南地院竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳宗彥，事實上LINE裡面都清清楚楚就有陳宗彥的圖像啊！現在司法為什麼有那麼多的質疑？剛剛吳思瑤說一定要公正，不要選擇性辦案，你看最近這段時間，最近這一年來，民進黨的人不只陳宗彥，要嘛棄保潛逃跑掉了，要嘛就輕判，更嚴重的很多都是無罪，不只陳宗彥，還有邱莉莉，你們還負責監聽，你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚，有多少證據，也都沒事啊！所以人民的不滿意度為什麼會有58%？現在看到的是車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛，碰到國民黨就重辦嘛，那個落差太大了！柯文哲不是這樣嗎？柯文哲的案子，你看最近這幾天，你傳朱亞虎來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，法官是獨立審判，我們不應該給法官任何干涉啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛問我哪個案子，就是因為最近有太多案子人民都有很多意見嘛！以柯文哲的案子來說，你的北檢找了朱亞虎去當證人要咬柯文哲，結果弄到他自己講說柯文哲跟沈慶京碰面，裡面談到晶華城，結果他竟然是用推測的，他人在外面，他跑去看朋友，結果他可以這樣推測。第二個，210萬的部分，他也沒有任何證據，結果你們北檢可以把它當成一個重要證據起訴柯文哲，柯文哲跟沈慶京也講說裡面都有不正訊問、有威脅……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案子在法院審理中……"],["張委員啓楷：對呀！"],["鄭部長銘謙：到底這個證據能力有沒有足夠證明，我想法官會獨立審判……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你看，那麼多案子都有問題的時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們要給法官一個獨立辦案的空間，我們也都非常尊重法院的判決，至於證據夠不夠，那個是在法庭攻防的問題，算是一個舉證的問題。我想這個案件既然在法院審理中，我們要給法院一個獨立、純淨的辦案空間，所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院審判不獨立或是不公正的問題，我們完全從證據來認定，用證據來攻防，一切用法定程序、用法律的規範來做證據攻防跟審判，我想這個我必須要尊重司法。"],["張委員啓楷：當有25萬的人民上街頭在吶喊、怒吼了，當所有民調都已經呈現司法改革是崩盤的，大家對於黨檢媒一體有那麼多的質疑，人民也透過民調跟你講了，我們很期待看到從賴總統到司法院、到檢調會有一些檢討，我相信你是不是在強辯、你有沒有解決問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在強辯，任何的……"],["張委員啓楷：還是越講人民越生氣？再過個幾天，新的民調又出來，就會打臉你了，我覺得人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來。我剛剛特別提醒你一個點，你是賴清德11項重大施政裡面最慘的，不滿意度最高的、滿意度最低的，光是這一點你就要趕快好好去檢討了！","我請教副秘，吳思瑤前幾天在這裡造謠，他說法庭直播需要593億，副秘，你那天好像也在場，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：哪來的593億？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想他……"],["張委員啓楷：法庭直播需要593億嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想所需要的經費是看計算基準，如果是每一個法庭都要直播，硬體建置的費用事實上會很高沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：副秘，我先跟你講，我們現在在質詢、在詢答也都是全程直播啊！你知道嗎？立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播，我們有8個委員會，一年你知道多少錢嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這部分我不了解。"],["張委員啓楷：吳思瑤說要593億，這是將近593倍的造謠耶！立法院一年的直播費用1億，怎麼可以這樣造謠呢？這是將近600倍的造謠，太離譜了！所以我今天把真相跟大家講，這是第一個，錢不需要這麼多。","第二個，台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚，我們是針對特定重要的社會矚目案件，你說大家關不關心剴剴案？很關心！大家關不關心柯文哲的案子？很關心啊！重大的社會矚目案件才要播，所以不是所有庭都要播，是不是？所以請不要再造謠了！第一個，錢本來就沒有那麼多，第二個，民眾黨非常負責，我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的案件，好不好？所以不是叫你所有的庭全部都要播，沒有！而且當事人提出來之後，你們還可以決定這個案件是不是屬於真正的、特定重大的社會矚目案件啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，即使是重大矚目的案件，它跟整個審判制度就是為了追求公正的判決，有時候那個目的經過法庭直播之後是會受到影響的，這個部分必須要非常審慎。"],["張委員啓楷：這個直播是你們的司改國是會議早就訂了的，2017年蔡英文總統召開的司改國是會議，我唸一段文字給你聽，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：司改國是會議是有做出建議，但是它還是必須要經過主管機關非常負責跟審慎、周延的評估，才有辦法施行的。"],["張委員啓楷：我先唸給你聽……"],["王副秘書長梅英：當時做出那個決議之後，整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的意見，這部分都可以去看。"],["張委員啓楷：我們一步一步來！第一個，當初的結論是什麼？2017年的結論是，司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播，預計在諮詢意見後於一年內完成草案，函請立法院審議。這樣有比較清楚了嗎？總統府開的耶，而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情，老實講，後來國民黨、民進黨都有提案，就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子，這是當初的結論！部長，你可以看，這個有，對不對？你們就跳票了啊！欺騙大眾啊！而且全世界很多先進國家都有在直播，強尼戴普那個案子最清楚，你看有多少人在看，而且老實講，這是救你們司法公正性、司法改革崩盤被人家質疑一個很好的藥啦！公開、透明嘛！在直播過程裡面，大家會發現檢察官起訴的內容到底有沒有羅織罪名，有沒有把重要的關鍵筆錄蓋起來，有沒有不正的訊問？人民是「頭家」，全世界都是這樣，國內的司改國是會議也是這樣，怎麼可以現在反而「倒退嚕」。","我剛剛跟你講，經費上也不是問題，沒有吳思瑤造謠的那麼多錢。民眾黨已經提出版本了，我們現在逕付二讀了嘛，我跟你講，我們很期待得到司法院跟法務部的支持。老實講這個不是為了個人，任何一個人，這是為了臺灣整個司法改革，也為了司法整個公開透明，這個是救你們啊！這是救司法院跟檢調體系這段時間受到質疑很好、很重要的一大步，我覺得要趕快跨出去。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，其實目前的法庭公開就已經非常公開透明了，所有公開的案件，所有的司法記者跟關心的人都可以進到裡面去看。但是，法庭公開跟要直播，這是完全不同的事情，直播就是這些影像會立刻無遠弗屆傳出去的，對於所有參與訴訟的人，不是只有公務員，包括所有進到法庭去的這些被告、證人、鑑定人，事實上他們的隱私權還有他們人格權，那些保護都必須要非常審慎的去評估到。"],["張委員啓楷：所以副秘，那美國、歐美他們為什麼都在直播？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，這部分司法院有做過研究，其實大部分的先進國家都是反對的，而且立法也規定不能法庭直播，像德國、法國；日本有規定可以，但是他們實務上從來都不做；歐陸國家幾乎整排通通都是不行做的。"],["張委員啓楷：直播，第一個……"],["王副秘書長梅英：至於美國，美國有聯邦跟各邦，聯邦法院也幾乎通通都是不能夠做，只有開放各邦，如果真的要談的話，美國事實上只有很少的案件進入到陪審團去，大部分根本不進入訴訟的，所以他們各邦會有其他特殊的考量，跟我們這種職業法院的國家考量完全是不一樣的。而且要法庭直播，事實上是增加當事人的負擔，因為你影音出去的時候，在現代影音時代，你去……"],["張委員啓楷：如果當事人希望直播呢？你為什麼幫當事人決定說他不要直播呢？第二個，我剛剛講過了，那當初為什麼蔡英文的司法國是會議要這樣定，那時候是產官學所有人都在，包括你們司法院的代表，法務部的代表都在喔。"],["王副秘書長梅英：但是報告委員，這個議案出去的時候，可以看一下當時的輿論，其實大部分都是反對，司法院除了做學者的委託案之外，我們也開過好幾次公聽會，也有開過學術研討會，就是焦點團體的學術研討會，大部分幾乎通通都是反對的。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼你聽到的聲音跟社會大眾都是不一樣的？我們還特別去做民調耶……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們說我們做的是焦點團體的，焦點團體的……"],["張委員啓楷：我們還特別去做民調，我唸給你聽，民調題目是請問您是否支持針對特定重大社會矚目案件進行法庭的公開直播，支持度多少你知道嗎？七成五，不支持只有十九點五，差三、四倍。"],["王副秘書長梅英：剛才那個……"],["張委員啓楷：我做個結論……"],["王副秘書長梅英：今天我們在議場的時候，法官協會剛剛也發了一份聲明，他們也是對於法庭直播非常質疑，所以這件事情真的必須要非常審慎的評估，因為一旦開放之後就沒有辦法回頭了。"],["張委員啓楷：各種聲音都有啦。我剛剛跟你講了，我引用的第一個是我們做過民調，第二個，之前蔡政府提出來的司法改革會議的結論，要你們提版本嘛，後來國民黨跟民進黨各黨，連時代力量的立法委員都有提案，都有提啊，全世界也有一些先進國家都有做啊。現在老實講沒有錯，我剛剛講的一個更嚴重的，對目前來講，就是因為司法不受到信任，你讓陽光射進來嘛，讓一些重大的案子，人民可以看得到嘛，人民是頭家，讓人民有一個公開透明的過程嘛。"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在法庭公開，大家都已經可以去旁聽了……"],["張委員啓楷：像現在一些重要的案子，絕大部分都進不去，對不對？你有看到柯文哲每次開庭，前一天大概下午就有一堆人在那邊排隊，根本都進不去啊！你有沒有注意到？你們北院每次只要柯文哲要出庭，你看明天又要開庭了，你今天下午去看，下午就有人在那邊排了，就是一堆人進不去嘛，連我們立法委員要進去旁聽都聽不了啊。讓全民可以公開透明，讓陽光射進我們法庭，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","因為我們剛剛已經宣告，在張啓楷委員詢答後休息5分鐘，那我們現在休息5分鐘，時間到我們就立刻開始。謝謝。","休息（11時25分）","繼續開會（11時30分）"],["主席：謝謝，我們繼續開會。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}