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徐副署長歡迎你"},{"start":2119.238,"end":2144.736,"text":"還有國發會的這個邱麗婷邱專門委員歡迎還有公平會的這個王一鳴王專門委員歡迎另外的核能會也有人來核能安全委員會的高斌高組長核能會還有另外的陳文淺陳組長好那文森你已經介紹過就不用了OK好那我們現在開始進行這個朝野協商因為我們本來是期待"},{"start":2146.021,"end":2164.79,"text":"在9月23號就要開始做專案了那老實講這個專案看起來應該是有需要因為現在不只是已經做了漲價這個決定那現在台電還開口要另外的1,000億的這個多補嘛我們是不是先請委員們先發表意見好不好讓勝翰先優先好不好好"},{"start":2171.652,"end":2197.744,"text":"這個那個先謝謝民眾黨跟旗開委員今天召集這個協商那當然今天這個協商是當這個是有院會交下的這這個協商那我想今天我們討論到的主題包括當就是當時剛剛就像旗開委員講到的民眾黨有提出說希望針對這個能源政策那也包括電價調整的機制"},{"start":2199.885,"end":2214.041,"text":"希望到這個院長希望到院會有一個專報嗎好那我第一個講幾幾個今天幾個事情第一個事情是確實就是確實就像剛剛說的其實原本是希望9月23號那可是這個9月23其實已經過了所以這個日期"},{"start":2218.065,"end":2233.241,"text":"在過了的狀況之下那我們要怎麼來討論這個議題那但從執政黨的角度我們也很清楚知道今天不只是在野黨也包括很多社會大眾也都希望在更加的了解我們的能源政策"},{"start":2234.102,"end":2249.531,"text":"跟電價機制的具體規劃這件事情我想對執政黨來說絕對不會去迴避跟逃避這件事情絕不絕不會迴避跟逃避好那我們也覺得有必要在這幾個主題上面或需要的話這幾個主題上面在院會有一個"},{"start":2250.271,"end":2270.781,"text":"讓大家多討論清楚或讓大家有更多的資訊的提供這事情我們也贊成但就像上次這個這個我們在上次的院長的召開的協商其實我們有討論到第一點第一點就是說我們只我們比較建議了因為就像剛剛說接下來台電還有一個一千億的追加減預算"},{"start":2272.462,"end":2293.719,"text":"這個台電一千億的追加減預算其實在這個報告裡面其實一定會談討論到第一個關於這個我們這個台電這做一個國營電力公司他收入啊他支出啊種種種的問題那台電的收入跟支出勢必就會跟當下的能源配比是有直接的非常非常直接的關聯的這個問題"},{"start":2296.101,"end":2309.637,"text":"所以這其實幾乎是一體兩面的事情就是說今天我們談的議題不管是電價機制或者是能源政策能源配比跟為什麼台電需要一千億追加減預算這幾乎是一體兩面的事情"},{"start":2310.618,"end":2338.849,"text":"好所以我們是建議說這個有沒有可能可以一起來處理我說一起來處理的話我們也想了方案其實過去我們看到有幾次喔就是之前的過去我們在行在院會裡面喔也有針對不管有可能是施政或預算報告其實用併同的方式我說併同方式就是說比方說讓院長來做一千億追加減的報告那併同"},{"start":2340.897,"end":2366.416,"text":"現在的這個主題能源政策及電價調整機制這是可以的做法因為過去就有這樣做沒有我說過去就有這樣做所以他的題目上面是直接就寫原本的主題並同後面這個就並同我們今天在開會的這個議題能源政策能源配比跟電價調整機制所以這等於就是有點像是打包來去處理"},{"start":2367.748,"end":2396.191,"text":"那這我們可以用這個方式去做第二個做法也是可以就是說就算你要把多一本報告針對這個主題今天今天齊凱委員召集的這個主題要多一本補充報告也可以好就是到時候院長在報告的時候有一個他原本的一千億的追加減預算的報告然後有一本補充報告是針對今天我們要召開的這個題目這也可以"},{"start":2398.29,"end":2399.995,"text":"但是就在同一天裡面去處理這個問題所以一樣都會談到這個議題"},{"start":2403.902,"end":2429.464,"text":"那這個報告完以後的詢答委員也一定都會問甚至我們也算計算了一下其實從9月到現在其實幾次的總諮詢下來我目前聽到好像也大概十幾個人次都跟院長其實已經問到了這個能源的議題然後那院長其實也是正面的回答所以我說這其實之前都問到但是這次要再報告然後大家要再討論要再要再"},{"start":2430.004,"end":2443.579,"text":"打訊這也都完全沒有問題這就沒什麼好去迴避這件事情的所以我剛才意思是說要不要用並同的方式這是過去有這樣子有這樣做的往例如果要多拆出一本補充報告"},{"start":2444.707,"end":2471.872,"text":"我們也覺得可以這是我要說的那再來一點我是想提因為大家都知道這禮拜五中午那個這個韓院長跟卓院長兩院院長就會找朝野一起來聚餐來討論接下來幾個我們在立法院非常非常重要的工作的事項怎麼樣安排跟怎麼樣衝突爭議化解的問題那裡面可能也包括中央政府總預算包括前瞻也包括了這個剛剛說的"},{"start":2474.893,"end":2493.086,"text":"台電的一千億追加減預算可能都會在這裡面大家一併的去做討論那尤其這也涉及到這些好幾個對這本會期最重要的工作接下來在總諮詢結束以後要怎麼安排的問題我自己也覺得就是說要不要因為"},{"start":2493.846,"end":2518.043,"text":"包括這也會牽涉到我們那一千億怎麼安排一千億追加減預算的報告專案報告怎麼安排的問題是不是也可以等到那時候來做一個總體性的討論所以我還是要說作為執政黨我們完全沒有要迴避這件事情該報告的該讓各個不同黨派的委員來問的絕對不會迴避只是在做法上面可能用並同的方式"},{"start":2519.383,"end":2534.382,"text":"也更有效率而且這幾個主題之間也是高度直接的關聯我剛才說幾乎是一體兩面的事情這個旗開會員這麼關注能源政策其實已經很知道為什麼要1000億當然就是因為你的支出"},{"start":2535.103,"end":2560.929,"text":"你的成本之間還有落差那成本怎麼算的當然是來自於能源政策跟能源配比這幾件事其實全部都是包裹在一起的同一件事情互為表裡的事情所以我覺得我們是覺得用這個方式其實比較完整也比較周全以上這大概是執政黨的看法謝謝我們等一下請國城委員那之前我先補充一下啦事實上生產委員提的就是因為我們本來在"},{"start":2562.199,"end":2589.729,"text":"提的這個案子是為了賴政府的這個能源配比跟電價政策那時候的原因主要是因為那時候準備要漲電價所以聽到的原因是要漲電價所以才有這個專案有這個專報我再重複一次那時候的背景台灣民眾黨為什麼提這個提這個案子是為了10月1號那時候傳出來說可能要漲電價所以我們要求賴政府要就能源配比跟電價的這個政策要說明說明後再決定要不要"},{"start":2590.569,"end":2617.268,"text":"要不要同意或者支持他漲電價還是要他不要漲那可是後來電價委員會又過來已經漲了這是一個那第二個現在紅色那洪委員提的是另外一個他是認為說沒有追加減沒有減應該是追加不是追加減那個減可以拿掉就是要追加要追加要追加一千億的撥補那現在有兩個方式一個就是剛剛洪委員建議就是說把這一千億要撥補這個事情放到"},{"start":2618.424,"end":2641.371,"text":"能源政策跟電價政策能源一起來一起來討論對不對等於是同時互為了嘛是不是我說把今天我們這個專題報告的主題放到這個一千億的追加減裡面兩個合在一起並同來做報告我說用一個並同的方式一起來做報告那也都會提到而且互相高度關聯"},{"start":2643.246,"end":2663.886,"text":"所以我說這比較完整跟周全這是民進黨團的看法聖誕跟民進黨團是認為說把它合在一起那現在我們就來討論說到底要不要合好不好林國成林委你看看你的意見一個是合一個剛剛聖誕也提到一個點就是說如果不合那就放到這一千億稅加一千億就放到禮拜五我們去討論在總計算那邊去討論也是一個方法對不對"},{"start":2668.72,"end":2685.535,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員各位官員我想今天主要還是談論能源政策當然因為台灣民眾黨提出主要的這些能源配備的這些問題"},{"start":2688.337,"end":2711.657,"text":"確確實實我常講過有時候你們自己提的東西都還要我們民意代表來提其實能源政策本來就是你們要講清楚的結果不管是常識也好不管董事長也好這本來你們就是要提但是今天有這個機會大家把它談清楚也好能源政策對跟錯"},{"start":2713.647,"end":2738.414,"text":"這個你們要去把它搞清楚尤其我們常識也好董事長也好這些第一個我比較疑問的我比較疑問的就是說到底我們能演現在到底對跟錯可是以我們的感覺我認為現在我們執政的執政黨能演政策是錯誤的"},{"start":2740.083,"end":2761.934,"text":"所以這個要不要納入你們未來要改進整個台電以及能源政策的部分要不要來參考我說實在的如果你依現在你們的做法你們不管是波普一簽也好依照也好我坦白跟你講都沒有辦法改變你們現在的體質啊"},{"start":2764.215,"end":2781.392,"text":"所以啊 台灣話講一句話就是國盟獨持 做到虧損連連 那更小啊當然 不是你曾董事長的問題這個是跟政策是連貫性所以啊 我們本黨會提出這個我們還是希望"},{"start":2782.401,"end":2807.116,"text":"台電跟我們能源政策連接起來是改變台電的這些體制這樣的話對於整個國家才會有幫助因為這個電是百分之百老百姓最需要的東西但是在這個部分有沒有必要大家來談論這個能源的政策錯與對"},{"start":2808.888,"end":2835.769,"text":"那我是覺得啦現在我還是要奉勸我們執政黨不要只有神主牌的政策啦這樣的話真的台電再找10個董事長來都無法改變這個體制那我也要奉勸我們台灣電力公司啦要有公司自主經營理念現在就是政策掛帥那就完蛋了我舉例"},{"start":2837.355,"end":2862.653,"text":"像我們現在台電虧損的問題都不是你們人的問題啊虧損的問題你能買貴賣給老百姓便宜每賣一度我們就虧多少這是做生意的ABC嘛所以這個要怎麼解決你們從來也沒有講出你們應該要怎麼解決那另外一個就是到底核電廠"},{"start":2863.934,"end":2884.835,"text":"可以不可以用要不要研議或確定不研議這個裡面要講清楚啊所以這個能源政策在這個部分才有辦法你們繼續再談下去其實生漢所講的這1,000億不管是追加也好不管是撥補也好其實這事小"},{"start":2886.737,"end":2891.501,"text":"這問題很大的就是說未來這一千一撥了以後還繼續撥嗎這個是最重要所以今天我們本黨提出這個是希望你們長治久安的永續經營的理念我看你們的"},{"start":2904.511,"end":2931.855,"text":"我看你們的那個公司的理念曾董事長你們都寫得很清楚啊我們台電是要永續經營的啊那永續經營從來沒有做改變就有辦法永續經營嗎唯一就只有一條路啊還是追加撥補追加撥補啊所以不能解決這些事所以我也希望等一下要說明第一個你能買貴賣低這個董事長要不要講清楚第二"},{"start":2932.455,"end":2953.925,"text":"核電廠要不要研議 研議有沒有幫助 什麼幫助或者在這個部分根本不需要用到這個 這個也要講清楚才有辦法去牽涉後面我們所需要的這個 站在民意代表的立場就是為老百姓嘛 我想三黨都是一樣"},{"start":2955.53,"end":2968.451,"text":"還是都是為老百姓．但是我們啟喜．台電永續經營．不要虧損連連這是我們擔心的那另外我說實在的啦人民真的不是盤子"},{"start":2970.643,"end":2994.413,"text":"你們在做什麼老百姓都知道可是老百姓最在乎的就我有沒有電我的用電貴不貴這些是老百姓所在乎的但是撥補的問題本來就是也是人民的納稅錢啊也是老百姓的納稅錢啊所以這些不管追加不管撥補這都是真的"},{"start":2996.024,"end":3024.426,"text":"作者追加作者撥補對台電救得了嗎這個我要了解的就是這些這個是撥補也好追加也好通通都是救急都是救急這我的認知是這樣那我特別要提醒我們經濟部跟我們鄭董事這個鄭董事長漲價是人民最不願意看到的一個事實"},{"start":3025.731,"end":3052.528,"text":"你們動不動就是漲價漲價你有長期規劃短期漲價中期的改變長期的完全改變這些種種你要讓老百姓說我這次漲價以後下次不會再講了沒有人4月份漲價10月份又漲價請問一下明年2月份過完年還要不要再漲價"},{"start":3053.989,"end":3079.982,"text":"這是很重要欸 欸 曾董事長你若做政無關 若做董事長 我也知道你心有餘力不足啊想要做 但是你有卡政策的卡在你身上這一點我完全是體會 但是有時候一個董事長還是要有自己公司經營理念的最基本啊那 你說現在工業用電"},{"start":3082.014,"end":3104.03,"text":"人民不漲：工業用電漲起來：它的物質不會上升嗎?工業用電都白白的：它都每天都在吸收嗎?這是聯動性的只要任何一個地方漲價通通會連動物質的上升這我想公平會你們都多有所研究啊不要說去騙人說工業用電漲起來：物質不會上漲你都在騙我"},{"start":3109.656,"end":3133.953,"text":"我們在基層裡面所接到的．不管工廠用電．或者工業用電．或者什麼用電．只要電漲價．水漲價．通通物質都會跟著上漲．這是一定的道理啦．所以這提供啊．提供給當事長．跟常事啊．你們去做政策決定的時候．要去做商考最後一個．就是電價審議委員會．"},{"start":3138.598,"end":3160.085,"text":"你們現在的制度就是威權漲價方式我坦白跟你講如果我給你們建議就是很簡單我們本黨提出來的電價委員會 審議委員會要民間過半甚至於甚至於"},{"start":3161.058,"end":3168.785,"text":"要民間三分之二這民間代替台電講話是比你們講了老半天還有用說實在的 不要封閉式 不要危險式在這個部分 電價審議委員會因為我們也已經提議通過要有超過二分之一以上的民間民間幫台電講話"},{"start":3187.19,"end":3200.664,"text":"是比你們講的更有用因為我當過里長我也很清楚我記得很清楚馬英九在講在講那個垃圾不落地垃圾袋要徵收的時候"},{"start":3201.778,"end":3226.571,"text":"是開始從林長他問我怎麼解決才不會有反彈我說讓林長開始了解再來林長了解以後深入林長林長再深入李明我跟你講他推的就很成功啊一開始讓他們試辦他看一看台北市垃圾不漏地這是好的啊相反的"},{"start":3227.091,"end":3244.358,"text":"如果電價審議委員會有多數是民間的你們那個漲價的公信力會更好會更好所以我們台灣民眾黨會提出這些要二分之一通過你們不要以為我們"},{"start":3245.638,"end":3260.412,"text":"去掌權不是這可以透過民間的力量去代替台電把台電的酸甜苦辣講出來老百姓會聽的但是你們怎麼講人家都不聽就剛才我所提出的阿你能買了6、7塊錢來賣給3塊多那一個做生意的那你怎麼做也了不起"},{"start":3270.439,"end":3293.64,"text":"這一定是這樣嘛有沒有辦法就是共體時間請他們也降我們這裡是不是減少就會拉低現在變成是這樣啊力能有辦法做力能就是什麼有辦法做力能就是財團結果這些這些我還是希望啊董事長還有嘗試既然你們要來做這些報告"},{"start":3294.341,"end":3310.769,"text":"那至於後面那一千億用追加用什麼我再看大家好好商量一下反正既成事實的東西要去做這些撥補或者追加我想這個大家還是可以談"},{"start":3314.563,"end":3333.473,"text":"謝謝 國審 國審剛剛已經接連問了很多問題 特別是那個洪思恩洪偉你一直在爭取的那個一千億要併同這個 上台也提了嘛你不要併進來以後討論完之後又追加了一千億到時候又要追加另外一個一千億 人民就不滿了這等一下我們請那個次長好不好 林次長或者是文森來解釋一下好不好那先 之前我們先讓郁真講一下 來 請郁真"},{"start":3335.054,"end":3361.299,"text":"好 謝謝主席．各位委員．還有各位官員．大家午安．台電是處在虧損的狀態．金額已經超過4,000多億．自從2022年到現在．經濟部與能源所分別於．前章基礎建設計畫特別預算．2012年及2013年公務預算於．"},{"start":3363.1,"end":3379.471,"text":"一後的特別預算．累積補助了．台電達3,000億元．甚至在最近國際燃料價．也下跌後．台電成本又下降．本會期還要追加簽譽預算．給台電來彌補虧損．"},{"start":3384.475,"end":3399.549,"text":"執政黨政府即則想要再生能源．取代核能．卻未能堅固能源供應．給穩定性．還有成本控制．台電都了解本地至"},{"start":3400.35,"end":3407.279,"text":"固定的資產也沒有活化．導致臺電臺光這1億4年．債務利息就高達321億．創下就是歷年最高的．今年3月．今3年．電價還是漲了3次．"},{"start":3420.174,"end":3422.136,"text":"長幅超過三成．但是呢．我們電價審議委員．討論過程都沒有直播．計算公式也不明．這次跟民生消費．直接相關的產業．雖然沒有動漲．"},{"start":3439.532,"end":3453.668,"text":"這次漲價仍然影響數十萬產業的用電戶．一定會影響民生物價．提升民生生活的成本．退步來說．我們本次調漲也只能填補．台電150億的黑洞．"},{"start":3461.233,"end":3486.957,"text":"連台電一年要付的利息一半都不到．根本都是杯水車薪．可見台電的經營效益與財務管理．有非常大的問題．我們賴清德總統．政府一直強調能源轉型．當能源政策不明．到現在．人靠持續上漲的電價．還有撥補這兩兆"},{"start":3491.478,"end":3494.859,"text":"來填補財務的漏洞．繼續浪費人民的血和錢．執政黨統促的國家及財務的黑洞．不該強迫人民買單．"},{"start":3507.079,"end":3533.668,"text":"民眾黨這邊我們的國昌委員．在三個會期就質詢．過行政院長卓龍泰．能源配比的問題．結果我們的卓院長一問三不知．雖然賴總統能源政策．只剩下口號而已．沒有計畫沒有路徑．更沒有具體的作為．但口號治國沒有辦法．"},{"start":3536.219,"end":3546.568,"text":"臺灣能源的問題．更沒有辦法解決一般．民生經濟的困境．因此．開能源專報是非常必要．錯誤能"},{"start":3549.631,"end":3570.175,"text":"政策比貪污更可怕．錯誤的政策．比貪污更可怕．我們蔡政府在2025年．再生能源20%的支票．也是在跳票．賴清德總統開了．一張新的支票也是說．2026年也要達到．更加碼在2030年．再生能源．"},{"start":3577.637,"end":3581.579,"text":"暫比30%．2050年到70%．請問如何做到的．大家都是喊口號跟喊數據．難道政府票票都不用負責．行政院必須針對．能源對比的政策來說明．給民眾一個交代．"},{"start":3598.366,"end":3610.554,"text":"因為我們不管是台電我們就是也要去補助還有我們的再生能源還有我們力能也要再編列預算補助還有我們要節能減碳也編列預算去補助所以說我們歷年一直來說我們就是要怎麼樣"},{"start":3617.879,"end":3643.874,"text":"節能減碳怎麼樣減減大家的用電學校冷氣也要說什麼時候要開才回我們政府機關什麼時候開店這樣就一直在減電減電一直在倡導但是我們的店也是一直在漲價漲價又虧損所以這個部分才是我們要好好再去研議的以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3647.159,"end":3666.866,"text":"好 謝謝所以這專報本來要就賴清德政府的能源配比跟定價的政策剛剛事實上台灣民眾黨兩位委員都有提到這個配比看起來問題蠻多的可能不容易達成那現在民進黨那邊黨團是說除了是把這個解釋清楚之外就把一千億的這個追加放進來我們先聽聽那個"},{"start":3669.147,"end":3689.188,"text":"林次長你先講好了吧你講完之後我們請那個曾董事長講完之後我們等一下來做個決定就是決定要不要決定兩件事情第一個專報要不要進行如果今天有共識我們把專報排進去第二個就是洪偉你提的要不要專報的同時把一千億的這個追加放進來好不好我們就做這兩個決定因為今天國民黨沒有來啦"},{"start":3690.929,"end":3703.042,"text":"今天民眾黨排這個協商那民進黨團我們也很誠意那我們也出席啊那只是國民黨沒有來看起來不太可能達成什麼共識"},{"start":3705.123,"end":3730.461,"text":"他們是簽到啦在協商要簽名啊他們國民黨有來簽到因為他們現在在開黨團 黨團會議不過我們兩個黨如果做了決定他們就會支持了有這種事情嗎現在只有兩個嘛不是不是 聖誕現在只有兩個嘛我們今天要決定的就是要不要開這個專報嘛 對不對你們如果同意專報就一定要進行了嘛國民黨不會反對啊那第二個要討論的是你剛剛提的一千億的追加預算要不要併案"},{"start":3732.113,"end":3750.6,"text":"要不要變案那他們解釋完之後我們聽聽連市長跟文森董事長做決定做二選一的決定好不好主席我要再說一次今天我們我是針對今天我們這個議案我們今天這個議案的討論第一個我是建議我們把這個議案等到禮拜五"},{"start":3752.06,"end":3766.297,"text":"那韓院長卓院長那早朝野的委員們黨團們一起討論接下來包括總預算前瞻預算台電追加減預算接下來怎麼安排好那會有一個時程大致的規劃下"},{"start":3767.898,"end":3796.115,"text":"那今天這個專報如果要我們是希望是並同一千億的追加減而不是獨立拉出來另外一天因為我我們講理由講得很清楚因為這是一個完整的東西要如果顧及到這個一體兩面的周全性的話應該放在一起一起報告並同進去這事情我覺得我們可以討論但是我們目前並不贊成把它"},{"start":3796.875,"end":3822.705,"text":"分開不同天但是我們認為比較完整的是因為第一個今天國民黨也不在我是建議說禮拜五那這個兩院做一個這樣子的交流過去有的爭議看大家怎麼怎麼去化解去和緩然後我們一把一起把後面這些事情一併的來做討論我覺得一樣是比較周全的做法我們的看法是這樣了然後再一個是剛剛其實兩位委員我還是想說因為"},{"start":3824.325,"end":3846.221,"text":"這個法是我們當初一起立的我說電業法47條剛剛不管國城委員也好或者是麥正委員好都有講到這次的電價審議委員會的這個機制是大家朝野一起有共識的民間的委員過半事實上這次10月的電價審議機制裡面民間的委員也真的過半了"},{"start":3847.743,"end":3874.239,"text":"過半的民間委員也真的在這個審議會裡面發生了影響力也不是都是行政部門想要怎樣全部都照著過並不是這樣所以我說剛剛大家又把這個電價審議機制罵了一頓我心想說我有點錯亂我們在今年7月那時候通過的時候大家都覺得很好都覺得跨出了很重要的一步也覺得朝野合作在這邊有一個重要的基礎"},{"start":3875.9,"end":3885.484,"text":"結果怎麼突然過了三個月就大家就開始把這個事情全部罵了一頓不是7月的時候大家都覺得很好嗎自己都覺得我們都覺得我們為電價審議機制的專業化邁進了一大步嗎當時當時不是都這樣覺得嗎所以我覺得這個地方"},{"start":3893.388,"end":3920.563,"text":"我們現在就執行了啦所以我說一個是今天議案上面的問題我覺得我們優先處理好不好對那個電價審理委員會我們的改革是兩大塊嘛一個就是民間跟專業要二分之一嘛第二個更重要的就是公開透明嘛所以他在兩個禮拜內他會把公開透明這個當天所有紀錄大家會檢視啦那沒關係事實上就是大家會檢視說那天他們到底夠不夠專業幫人民去看我們來檢視好不好那我們簡短我們請連次長先來好不好我們等一下趕快做個決定謝謝"},{"start":3923.124,"end":3942.96,"text":"主席還有三位委員剛剛大家提到電力能源配備政策我們現在目前還是在整個能源轉型政策是用再生能源為主軸同時搭配低碳天然氣發電並推動地熱氫能等這些新能源然後來穩定供電多元綠能跟減煤減碳"},{"start":3944.241,"end":3954.931,"text":"那在2030年我們目前的整個能源配比是天然氣是五成再生能源三成然後燃煤兩成那至於再生能源目前整個推動狀況"},{"start":3957.332,"end":3979.75,"text":"太陽光電目前我們到今年8月已經有推13.6GW．離岸風電也有360座風機．並廣裝置容量也達到將近3GW．第2目前我們正在整個6個淺層第2個暗廠．還有10大第2淺層我們目前正在進行探勘．尤其我們現在是由國營事業先行．請中油台電目前正很積極在做"},{"start":3981.852,"end":3998.683,"text":"那水利發電目前也有一些初步的一個成果就整個發電量是佔全國的1.7%那至於剛剛很多委員垂詢的這一次的整個電價審議其實就是新的這樣電價審議下來我們是有外部委員是超過一半以上"},{"start":3999.503,"end":4026.77,"text":"那跟大家報告一下那天那天大家初步討論完之後就是有一些共識解就是說電價這次電價調整是要秉持照顧民生跟穩定物價兼顧產業競爭力這兩個原則來進行調整同時我們針針對這些產業用電不是只有考慮到他產業用電的成長衰退還有考慮到如果是製造業他的產值的一個變化狀況"},{"start":4027.85,"end":4041.434,"text":"阿福惠是考慮到他的銷售的一個情況用這樣的幾個元素來做討論做討論那最後就是決議就是住宅小商店這時候占所有的這些用電戶的車95.6%就是不調整"},{"start":4044.935,"end":4061.894,"text":"然後民生那因為這裡會設幾張我們剛才講的說要穩定物價所以跟民生有關的內需的部分像跟食品有關的製造還有零售這一部分還有攤販、量販店、超市反正跟民眾常常會去的這些超市這些就是動漲"},{"start":4062.975,"end":4089.256,"text":"那另外針對龍魚學校還有社會團體那這個掌握這個目的事業主管機關來編列經費支應那根據這幾個原則所以我們做了這樣的一個調整那另外當然後來社會輿論有一些聲音出來那當然很多前面是根據那個原則做了一點調整後來我們也考慮到社會的一些聲音我們又做了一些微調就是香煙草葉這一塊我們後來本來是調"},{"start":4093.186,"end":4115.602,"text":"百分之七後來我們把它恢復到百分之四十四那後來因為本來診所這一塊本來就百分之七十幾是不不去調整的那為了要維持一致性所以就把醫院這一塊我們又把它動漲過來那那時候也考慮到餐食跟外匯或團善這一部分也是跟民生起起相關後來這一部分我們也維持動漲那當然"},{"start":4117.679,"end":4140.86,"text":"在有一些花蓮這些女數位等等這些我們本來這個就是動漲在而且我們是延續到0403地震的這樣的一個系列下來那跟我們報告齁這個這次的外部委員是過半齁那在形成這樣的共識然後我們把這些相關的類表出來的時候我是那天的主席我還特別問了三次齁"},{"start":4141.741,"end":4166.397,"text":"委員這個東西大家同不同意大家一致說同意我問了三次大家所以這個是充分的是經過委員充分去討論過而且我們開了差不多將近三個小時三個小時去逐一的去看去討論那當然我們的整體的會議記錄會在兩個禮拜以後我們會公開上網來呈現給外界來做檢驗那以上我初步報告"},{"start":4168.035,"end":4179.23,"text":"次長是那天那個電價審議會的主席那一天當然現在看起來有些地方都幅度都在改剛講那個煙本來後來就變成說不漲了可是那個煙草那一塊就被罵慘了"},{"start":4180.185,"end":4209.523,"text":"那現在老實講今天交通部也有人來你看交通部就在爭取說像台電那個台電漲了台鐵之後台鐵那個多了多少2.28億是不是這可能早先他們又要去問那個次長跟店家審議委員會了等一下我們有機會今天可能時間來不及了我們早先再看看可能內部自己要再檢討一下啦好不好那這樣文森講完之後我們趕快做決定這是剛剛我是建議就是等一下用洪森那洪偉那個建議啦到底要不要到禮拜五去還是說我們就是今天讓他通過要不要變案這樣子好不好我們就等下討論來文森"},{"start":4210.063,"end":4234.742,"text":"好,謝謝主席還有謝謝各位委員喔那個,台電是國營事業啦屬虛雄真的在台灣獨國行獨棲啦齁那所以我們在國內沒得比較我們就要跟全世界做比較那我跟委員報告其實我們不去講歐洲那種日本那個電價動輒超過五塊新台幣那德國又超過十塊新台幣那個是台灣電價的用倍再算倍數再算"},{"start":4235.522,"end":4259.041,"text":"我們最容易Benchmark的國家其實是韓國韓國電力公司跟台灣比較相像就是他其實他也是國營的然後他是等於是相對來講他就是一個獨占事業那其實台灣的電價到目前為止都比韓國還要低工業電價比他低那民生的電價更是低他們的民生電價是3.99元台灣的是2.77元這是平均電價"},{"start":4263.684,"end":4282.984,"text":"其實我們有基礎的電價就是500度以下的現在的電價的電費比20年前的價格還要低比2004年的價格還要低這個電價結構是確實需要去面對因為這20年來台灣大概所有的成本都漲了"},{"start":4284.205,"end":4303.359,"text":"所有的成本都漲了那更不用講說國際的燃料價格在這20年間其實是有一定程度的波動不過站在國營事業的角度就是立法院對國營事業的營運狀況有任何需要了解的地方我們都會來報告我也跟各位委員報告其實我們現在談的是院會的報告"},{"start":4304.64,"end":4327.944,"text":"其實我們下個禮拜要去經濟委員會報告電價專報就是說電價的專報是必然匯報那現在台電遇到的狀況需要大院支持的是這個樣子就是說我們只針對民生的電價沒有反應所產生的落差2022年大概差了我們自己內部的估算差了1,08億2023年差了1,01億"},{"start":4333.105,"end":4354.734,"text":"這個就包含住宅跟小店家2024年就今年今年我們預估大概是800億那其中有一個部分是因為國際的燃料價格在這一段時間有消一下來但是我們也天天盯著那個博安的狀況在看前陣子那個油價突然噹了一下漲了4%昨天又掉下來了"},{"start":4355.794,"end":4381.552,"text":"我們也是在看著這個整個波動的狀況那我們估算今年大概800億所以整個來講那個1,000億的追加預算實質是高度的fit就是我們針對民生物價民生電價所承擔的政策責任而提的我想說在這邊特別跟各位委員做報告那各位委員另外關心就是綠電的價格等等的事其實細節我很願意做說明因為現在企業在買的綠電"},{"start":4384.594,"end":4403.861,"text":"他們在市場買的價格．雖然不太一樣．但你會看到．台電的短購長期來看．除了你在扶植新的再生能源產業．可能它在前期的價格比較高以外．後段現在民間在市場上買的價格．不見得會比短購的費率低"},{"start":4404.821,"end":4427.917,"text":"好不見得會低我們願意願意分析出來那當然我們也接到政策指示因為我們要支持國內的產業擁有再生能源有阿姨的憑證可能台電賺夠的這些相關的再生能源也必須做一定程度的規劃來支援我們的產業取得再生能源那我覺得這些工作開始進行其實時間一發生下去"},{"start":4429.958,"end":4447.148,"text":"我是非常願意跟各位委員做報告就是他可能的走向會走到什麼地方那至於大家很關心的核電的問題我還是要回答就是臺電是事業單位現在的法律規定我們就是要近代政策決定我想說在這邊跟特別跟委員做報告謝謝聽了那個鄭文生鄭董事長的講他應該很想要來專報嘛對不對"},{"start":4455.962,"end":4484.316,"text":"事實上像這樣子啦剛剛如果就林國成連委跟麥一貞提的就是我們為什麼當初要提這個能源配比就是因為我們覺得現在能源配比是有問題的他剛剛國成不是有講嗎你就是說你現在你過去8年包括蔡政府的8年你看再生能源才增加了5%結果你能源配比你們現在兩年兩個月後說要增加18%不可能達到嘛然後最便宜的這個核能這個又被廢掉我不要多話啦我只是會議不要多話好不好我們來做決策啦就是說現在看起來"},{"start":4485.296,"end":4499.351,"text":"看起來台電跟經濟部認為說應該要有專報嘛對他們希望把事情講清楚那對台灣民眾黨來講我們也認為說應該要有專報那只是說民眾民進黨現在提說要把追加一千億把它併同來報嘛現在是到底要兩個還是一個"},{"start":4501.371,"end":4519.17,"text":"我先說第一個我們剛剛其實大家其實蠻充分的討論那彼此我覺得也針對很多的問題去做一些釐清那我自己是建議今天真的因為第一個國民黨也沒來就坦白說不知道他的看法怎樣我不知道為什麼他簽的到就跑了"},{"start":4520.571,"end":4522.912,"text":"為補貼龐大財務黑洞．台電打"},{"start":4543.553,"end":4560.825,"text":"因為一千億一定是需要專報的一定是院長一定是要來報的啦好一千我說一千億的追加減的部分院長一定是要來報告的我們並不反對如果要今天有這個能源配比跟電價機制的話就併在那裡面用併同的方式併在裡面我們不反對"},{"start":4562.182,"end":4567.045,"text":"他下禮拜就要去經濟委員會就要報告真的這個已經要報告了院會你比較有機會來啊不是不要只有我們經濟委員會那個主席主席我要說大家都很清楚也經過了一個會期"},{"start":4580.433,"end":4598.008,"text":"第一個在報告上面其實一定會針對這個部分多所琢磨清楚的說明而且是有院長來說明如果併在一起的話如果併同的話一樣一樣也會報告到這一點那要問的話要質詢的話也一定都質詢的到就算沒有報告"},{"start":4600.031,"end":4616.526,"text":"前面幾個禮拜大家也質詢非常非常多次了也沒有也從來沒有迴避也都可以質詢的到所以不管是報告也好不管是質詢也好我們覺得把它併到一千億的追加減的報告裡面我們覺得這是如果是這樣的話我們可以接受"},{"start":4618.492,"end":4642.492,"text":"但我們不贊成把它分開但是我覺得這整體的部分我們建議就是等到五禮拜五的朝野聚餐以後來一併討論我們的看法是這樣子現在總議算是被退回程序委員會你怎麼知道這個一千億這一千億一定進得來好像真的不單獨先處理你先把一千億這個先拿掉我們先把那個專案報告"},{"start":4644.717,"end":4649.703,"text":"主席我現在講的就是說這是民進黨團的主張這是民進黨團的主張那我們也希望這個我們絕對不會迴避針對能源政策能源配備電價機制的報告跟詢答沒有迴避"},{"start":4664.747,"end":4689.475,"text":"沒有迴避我們沒有沒有迴避下禮拜在委員會就有了都沒有迴避只是我們針對通過今天的專案針對今天這個事情針對這個事情我們的主張就是這樣那因為國民黨沒來我其實是覺得我們把我們的態度表達國民黨都沒來我們也很有誠意在這邊把我們的看法很完整的跟大家報告了好謝謝我是建議這個我們可能也要先離開了好"},{"start":4690.535,"end":4713.185,"text":"我是建議主席這樣因為深旱這些建議當然我們還是可以考慮但是第一個我認為專報歸專報禮拜五因為院長兩院院長跟三黨的黨編都要有一個見面的一個協商那如果這個專報因為不影響專報我們還是照專報"},{"start":4719.307,"end":4731.572,"text":"深漢禮拜五大家氣氛還不錯才請主席也把他併進去那這樣的話就變成比較圓滿因為那一千億你現在把他併進去說實在的這樣也太聰明了因為他們談得怎麼樣"},{"start":4735.914,"end":4763.648,"text":"大人談得怎麼樣都不曉得我們就去做決定這樣也不太好所以我們還是先通過這個專報還是照報因為這個是院會交下來的我們今天討論的就是說你願不願意來報告啊願意那如果是院長也願意來那付把這個一千億把它付那個付上去這個也是ok的所以我建議單獨通過這個那那些就等禮拜一以後再來做議決"},{"start":4766.431,"end":4770.173,"text":"因為黨團協商我也算三長因為禮拜五也會見面所以說我們不管是黨團協商跟兩院見面還是說沒有見面"},{"start":4787.463,"end":4791.625,"text":"我們各個部會都會來找我們的黨團來去溝通才能達到共識再來黨團協商才能有結果所以今天我們讓大家有個機會事先我們討論"},{"start":4810.015,"end":4829.266,"text":"達成共識該上去再跟我們山長再來去報備我們再來去來去做協商才能是圓滿啊這個就是我們在這段時間各個部會找我們來去做說明的用意嗎對不對所以說我們今天是有這個機會韓院長也是有"},{"start":4832.208,"end":4838.753,"text":"有給我們有這樣子的權力來去做黨團協商但是我們沒辦法達成共識我們也是要來知道說我們已經沒辦法達成共識大家有誠意來一起來來去協商但是沒有達成共識我們就是要回報我們在禮拜五怎麼去決定嗎不能說我們總預算退回去你們也沒有任何動作也沒有任何修改"},{"start":4859.309,"end":4863.413,"text":"這樣子的話對我們立法院的委員一點尊重都沒有啦這個就是我們是要去表達我們的用意所以我們要請我們的主席做決定今天因為三黨協商我們是協商三黨協商但是有簽名還沒有到場"},{"start":4878.647,"end":4882.088,"text":"這個協商也沒辦法去達成共識啦所以我們也希望說他們沒有來逐人但是我們民眾黨很有誠意來聽聽你們講聽聽我們是不是可以幫你們來去講話"},{"start":4893.672,"end":4901.016,"text":"是不是我們的用意很清楚很理性也希望達成共識所以我們才要辦這樣子的一個協商我們八個我們就來三個了我們是很有誠意的也希望說你們拿出你們的困難或者需要我們要去協商我們也可以有機會幫大家講話這個不是不是對嗎我們要為了我們的福國利民嘛不是為了反對而反對呀是不是這樣"},{"start":4922.71,"end":4931.929,"text":"所以我們希望就是大家都有充分的討論也要請我們主席採視謝謝以上非常理性務實科學不只是洪聖誕跟"},{"start":4933.198,"end":4957.107,"text":"臺灣民眾黨的立委的這個對談還有跟我們觀點也都非常理性務實科學那現在如果連市長還有那個臺電這邊你們現在應該是希望兩個嘛我這樣聽下來一個是希望有一個專報那要不要把這個一千億併進來你們回去跟院長跟經濟部那邊也再討論一下好不好那你們覺得今天因為義貞是幹市長那禮拜五會在你會把你們的意見一些建議可以跟義貞請義貞幫你們表達好不好那我們就我看起來"},{"start":4960.268,"end":4981.396,"text":"我們就等禮拜五看他們協商怎麼樣以後我們再來做最後決定好不好我先讀一下這個最後的這個最後決定我們是報告黨團協商會今天沒辦法達成共識所以本案我們就保留送請韓國瑜韓院長協商協商會議結束以後我們再來進一步的討論好不好那我們現在宣布協商會議結束謝謝大家"},{"start":4987.381,"end":4989.281,"text":"市長想跟您說明一下"},{"start":5021.933,"end":5023.236,"text":"本期視頻就介紹到這裡﹗"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:33:45.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:33:47.517000+08:00","text":"我們現在開始協商會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:33:47.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:34:14.403000+08:00","text":"這次的協商主題是本院台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會要作成的決議，\n113 年 9 月 23 日（禮拜一）加開院會，邀請行政院院長率同相關的部會首長就賴清德政府能源\n政策、能源配比，還有電價政策進行案報告，並備質詢。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:34:20.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:34:33.815000+08:00","text":"本案在 9 月 20 日立法院第 11 屆第 2 會\n期第 1 次院會已經決議交付黨團協商，並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召開協商，協商會議請各黨團\n指派代表。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:35:58.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:36:17.388000+08:00","text":"現在開始進行朝野協商，我們本來期待 9 月 23 日就要開始做專案，老實講這個專案應該是有\n需要，因為現在不只做了漲價的決定，台電還開口要另外 1,000 億的撥補。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:36:18.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:36:21.670000+08:00","text":"先請委員發表意見，\n讓申翰委員優先，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:36:21.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:37:01.971000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝民眾黨跟啓楷委員召集協商，今天這個協商會議是由院會交下的，討論的主\n題包括啓楷委員剛剛提的，民眾黨針對能源政策，包括電價調整的機制，希望院長到院會做一\n個專報。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:37:02.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:37:20.431000+08:00","text":"現在我想提幾件事情，第一件事情確實就像剛剛說的，原本希望 9 月 23 日，可是 9 月\n23 日已經過了，所以在過了這個日期的狀況之下，我們要怎麼來討論這個議題？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:37:22.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:37:52.454000+08:00","text":"從執政黨的角\n度，我們很清楚知道，今天不只是在野黨，包括很多社會大眾，也都希望可以更加了解我們能\n源政策跟電價機制的具體規劃，這件事情對執政黨來說，我們絕對不會迴避跟逃避，因為我們\n348\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也覺得有必要或需要就這幾個主題，讓大家在院會多討論清楚，或讓大家有更多資訊的提供，\n我們也都贊成。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:37:56.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:38:46.617000+08:00","text":"其實我們在院長上次召開的協商中有討論到一點，因為就像剛剛說的，台電接下來還有一個\n1,000 億的追加減預算，在這個報告裡面，一定會討論到台電做為國營電力公司，它的收入、它\n的支出種種的問題；台電的收入跟支出，勢必就會跟當下的能源配比有非常非常直接的關聯，\n所以這幾乎是一體兩面的事情。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:38:46.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T13:39:01.403000+08:00","text":"也就是說，今天我們談的這個議題，不管是電價機制或能源政\n策、能源配比，跟台電為什麼需要 1,000 億追加減預算，幾乎是一體兩面的事情，所以我們建議\n這有沒有可能一起來處理，我們也想了一起處理的方案。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:39:01.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:39:40.834000+08:00","text":"因為過去我們在院會裡面也曾針對施\n政或預算報告用併同的方式，我說的併同方式，比方說讓院長來做 1,000 億追加減預算的報告，\n併同現在這個主題─能源政策及電價調整機制，這是可以的做法，因為過去就有這樣做過，在\n它的題目上面直接就寫原本的主題併我們今天開會的這個議題─能源政策、能源配比，跟電價\n調整機制。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:39:41.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:39:46.970000+08:00","text":"就有點像是打包去處理，第一個我們可以用這個方式去做。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:39:47.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:40:25.346000+08:00","text":"第二個做法也可以，就是針對啓楷委員今天召集的這個主題多一本補充報告也可以，到時候\n院長在報告時，除了原本一份 1,000 億追加減預算的報告之外，還有一本補充報告是針對今天我\n們召開的這個題目，這樣也可以，就在同一天裡面處理，一樣都會談到這個議題，也就是報告\n結束後，委員的詢答一定都會問。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:40:25.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:40:43.001000+08:00","text":"我們計算了一下，從 9 月到現在，幾次總質詢聽下來，已有\n十幾個委員向院長問到能源議題，院長也都有正面回答，所以我說這部分其實之前也都有問到\n。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:40:43.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:40:51.809000+08:00","text":"這次要再報告，大家要再討論、要再答詢，也都完全沒有問題，因為沒什麼好去迴避這件事\n情的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:40:52.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:41:03.627000+08:00","text":"所以，我剛才的意思是，要不要用併同的方式，因為過去也有這樣的往例；如果要多拆\n出一本補充報告，我們也覺得可以，這是我要說的。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:41:04.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:00.212000+08:00","text":"再來，我想提一點，大家都知道這禮拜五中午，韓院長跟卓院長兩院院長會找朝野一起聚餐\n，討論接下來我們在立法院非常重要的工作事項要怎麼樣安排，怎麼樣化解爭議衝突的問題；\n裡面可能包括中央政府總預算、前瞻，也包括台電的 1,000 億追加減預算，可能都會一併討論，\n這些也都將是本會期最重要的工作，總質詢結束以後要怎麼安排，因為這裡面也包括了 1,000 億\n追加減預算專案報告要怎麼安排的問題，是不是也可以等到那時候再來做一個總體性的討論？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:00.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:05.376000+08:00","text":"所以我還是要說，作為執政黨，我們完全沒有要迴避這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:06.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:27.678000+08:00","text":"該報告的，該讓各個不同黨\n派委員來問的，絕對不會迴避，只是在做法上面，可能用併同的方式會更有效率，而且這幾個\n主題之間也都有高度直接的關聯性，幾乎是一體化兩面的事情，啓楷委員這麼關注能源政策，\n你也很知道。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:28.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:29.620000+08:00","text":"為什麼要 1,000 億？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:29.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:42.805000+08:00","text":"然就是因為支出與成本之間還有落差；成本怎麼算的，當然是\n來自於能源政策跟能源配比，這幾件事幾乎是全部包裹在一起的同一件事情，互為表裡。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:43.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:47.286000+08:00","text":"所以\n我覺得用這個方式比較完整，也比較周全。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:47.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:51.807000+08:00","text":"以上大概是執政黨的看法，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:51.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:42:54.788000+08:00","text":"我們等一下請國成委員，在此之前我先補充一下。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:42:55.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:43:11.723000+08:00","text":"事實上，申翰委員提的就是我們本來在提\n的案子，因為賴政府的能源配比跟電價政策，那時候聽到準備要漲電價，所以才提這個專案、\n這個專報。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:43:11.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:43:16.245000+08:00","text":"我再重複一次那時候的背景，台灣民眾黨為什麼提這個案子？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:43:16.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:43:31.592000+08:00","text":"是因為那時候傳出來\n10 月 1 日可能要漲電價，所以我們要求賴政府要就能源配比跟電價政策，提出說明以後，再決\n349\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n定要不要同意或者支持它漲電價，其實就是要它不要漲。","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:43:31.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:43:34.114000+08:00","text":"可是，後來電價委員會通過，已經漲\n了，這是一點。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:43:34.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:43:48.804000+08:00","text":"第二點，現在洪申翰委員提的是另外一個追加減預算案的部分，其實沒有減，那個減字可以\n拿掉，就是要追加 1,000 億的撥補。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:43:49.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:00.165000+08:00","text":"現在有兩個方式，一個是洪委員剛剛建議的，把要撥補這\n1,000 億的事情，放到能源政策，跟電價政策那邊一起來討論，等於就同時付委了嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:01.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:01.186000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:03.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:09.168000+08:00","text":"我補充一下，我是說把我們今天這個專題報告的主題放到這個 1,000 億的追加減裡面\n……","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:10.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:24.190000+08:00","text":"併同來做報告，就是用併同的方式，一起來做報告時，也都會提到，因為互相高度關\n聯，這樣會比較完整跟周全，這是民進黨團的看法。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:25.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:29.515000+08:00","text":"申翰跟民進黨團認為是把它合在一起，我們現在就來討論到底要不要合。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:30.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:31.957000+08:00","text":"林國成委員，你的\n意見如何？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:31.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:40.685000+08:00","text":"一個是合，另外申翰剛剛也提到，如果不合，追加的這 1,000 億就放到禮拜五在總預\n算那邊去討論，也是個方法。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:40.685000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:45.720000+08:00","text":"到時候一定會討論到的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:45.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:44:51.385000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:44:51.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:45:25.254000+08:00","text":"我想今天主要還是談論能源政策，台灣民眾黨提出這些\n主要的能源配備問題，我就常講有時候你們自己提的東西都還要我們民意代表來提，能源政策\n本來就是你們要講清楚的，不管是常次也好、董事長也好，這本來就是你們要提的，不過今天\n有這個機會，讓大家把它談清楚也好。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:45:26.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:45:35.828000+08:00","text":"能源政策對跟錯，你們要去把它搞清楚，尤其是常次也\n好、董事長也好。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:45:37.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:45:47.212000+08:00","text":"我第一個比較有疑問的，就是我們現在的能源政策到底是對或錯？","quality":0.519},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:45:48.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:46:06.808000+08:00","text":"就我們的\n感覺，我認為現在執政黨的能源政策是錯誤的，這個要不要納入你們未來在改進整個台電以及\n能源政策的參考。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:46:07.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:46:18.914000+08:00","text":"我說實在的，以你們現在的作法，不管是撥補 1,000 億也好、1 兆也好，坦白講，都沒有辦法\n改變你們現在的體質。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:46:21.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:46:28.162000+08:00","text":"有一句臺灣話說：孤行獨市，做到虧損連連，那是丟臉啊！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:46:29.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:46:51.909000+08:00","text":"當然不是你\n曾董事長的問題，這個是跟政策有連貫性，所以本黨才提出這個，希望台電跟我們能源政策連\n接起來，來改變台電的體質，這樣對整個國家才會有幫助。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:46:52.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:47:04.116000+08:00","text":"因為電百分之百是老百姓最需要的\n東西，但大家有沒有必要來談論這個能源政策的錯與對？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:47:07.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:47:19.379000+08:00","text":"我還是要奉勸執政黨，不要只有神主\n牌的政策，這樣的話就算台電再找 10 個董事長來，也都無法改變這個體質。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:47:20.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:47:31.989000+08:00","text":"我也要奉勸台電公\n司要有公司自主經營理念，現在是政策掛帥，那就完蛋了！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:47:32.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:47:57.311000+08:00","text":"舉例來說，台電現在虧損的問題，都不是人的問題，虧損的問題，如：綠能買貴，賣給老百\n姓便宜，每賣 1 度我們就虧多少，這是做生意的 ABC，你們從來也沒有講你們應該要怎麼解決\n。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:47:57.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:01.735000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是核電廠到底可以不可以用？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:02.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:04.318000+08:00","text":"要不要延役或確定不延役？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:05.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:13.707000+08:00","text":"你們也要講清楚，能源\n政策才有辦法繼續再談下去。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:14.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:26.099000+08:00","text":"其實，申翰所講的這 1,000 億不管是追加也好，不管是撥補也好，其實這個事小，問題很大的\n是，未來這 1,000 億撥了以後，還要繼續撥嗎？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:26.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:26.639000+08:00","text":"這才是最重要的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:27.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:28.180000+08:00","text":"今天本黨提出這個案子，希望\n350\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n你們長治久安，有永續經營的理念。","quality":0.561},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:28.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:48:53.481000+08:00","text":"我們看台電公司的經營理念，曾董事長你們寫得很清楚，\n台電要永續經營，但從來沒有改變就有辦法永續經營嗎？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:48:53.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:00.587000+08:00","text":"唯一的一條路還是追加撥補，追加撥\n補是不能解決這些事情的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:01.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:07.954000+08:00","text":"所以我希望你們等一下能說明，第一、綠能買貴賣低的部分，董事長要不要講清楚？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:08.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:11.656000+08:00","text":"第二、\n核電廠要不要延役？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:12.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:14.497000+08:00","text":"延役有沒有什麼幫助？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:15.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:24.542000+08:00","text":"或者根本不需要用到這個，台電也要講清楚，才有\n辦法討論後面的問題。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:26.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:41.745000+08:00","text":"站在民意代表的立場，我們就是為老百姓，我想三黨都一樣，都是為老\n百姓，但是我們期許台電永續經營，不要虧損連連，這是我們擔心的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:42.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:53.746000+08:00","text":"另外，我說實在話，人\n民真的不是「盤子」，你們在做什麼，老百姓都知道，老百姓最在乎的就是我有沒有電？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:53.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:56.207000+08:00","text":"我的\n用電貴不貴？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:49:56.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:49:58.427000+08:00","text":"這些是老百姓所在乎的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:50:00.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:50:19.229000+08:00","text":"其實撥補的經費本來也是人民的納稅錢、老百姓的納稅\n錢，所以不管追加，不管撥補，做這些真的救得了台電嗎？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:50:19.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:50:20.850000+08:00","text":"我要瞭解的就是這些。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:50:22.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:50:26.274000+08:00","text":"撥補也好、\n追加也好，統統都是救急！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:50:28.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:50:31.318000+08:00","text":"本席的認知是這樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:50:31.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:51:01.763000+08:00","text":"另外，我特別要提醒經濟部跟曾董事長，漲價是人民最不願意看到的一個事實，你們動不動\n就漲價；漲價也要有長期的規劃──短期漲價，中期改變，長期完全改變，你要讓老百姓覺得\n這次漲價以後，下次不會再漲了。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:51:03.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:51:11.609000+08:00","text":"不是 4 月份漲價，10 月份又漲價，請問一下，明年 2 月份過\n完年還要不要再漲價，這事很重要！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:51:12.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:51:44.578000+08:00","text":"曾董事長當過政務官，現在當董事長，我知道你是心有餘、力不足，想要做，但是又有政策\n卡在你身上，這一點我完全能體會；但有時候，董事長自己還是要有公司最基本的經營理念，\n你說現在人民用電不漲，可是工業用電漲起來，物價不會上升嗎？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:51:44.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:51:47.941000+08:00","text":"工業用電戶都白白的、默默\n的吸收上漲的電價嗎？","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:51:47.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:51:58.668000+08:00","text":"這是有連動性的，只要任何一個地方漲價，統統會連動到物價的上升，\n相信公平會都有所研究。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:51:59.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:52:01.010000+08:00","text":"所以不要騙人，說什麼工業用電上漲，物價不會上漲，真的是「騙肖\n仔」！","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:52:06.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:52:29.652000+08:00","text":"我們在基層裡面所接到的，不管工廠用電或者工業用電或者什麼用電，只要電費漲價、\n水費漲價，物價統統都會跟著上漲，這是一定的道理，這也提供給董事長跟常次在做政策決定\n時的參考。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:52:30.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:53:03.182000+08:00","text":"最後，電價審議委員會現在的制度就是威權漲價方式，我坦白跟你們說，如果要給你們建議\n，其實很簡單，就是本黨提出來的，電價審議委員會的民間審議委員要過半，甚至民間要三分\n之二，民間代替台電講話，比你們講老半天還有用。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:53:03.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:53:25.772000+08:00","text":"說實在的，不要封閉式、不要威權式，在\n這個部分，電價審議委員會因為我們已經提議通過，要有超過二分之一以上的民間，民間幫台\n電講話，比你們講的更有用。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:53:26.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:53:39.538000+08:00","text":"因為我當過里長，所以很清楚，我記得很清楚馬英九在講垃圾不落地，垃圾袋要徵收的時候\n，是從鄰長開始。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:53:42.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:54:13.134000+08:00","text":"他問我怎麼解決才不會有反彈，我說讓里長開始了解，里長了解以後再深入\n鄰長，鄰長再深入里民，我跟你講，他推得就很成功，一開始讓他們試辦，他看一看，臺北市\n垃圾不落地是好的，相反的，如果電價審議委員會有多數是民間的，你們漲價的公信力會更好\n。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:54:14.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:54:36.291000+08:00","text":"所以我們台灣民眾黨才會提出這些要二分之一通過，你們不要以為我們是要掌權，不是，這\n可以透過民間的力量去代替台電，把台電的酸甜苦辣講出來，老百姓會聽的，但是你們怎麼講\n人家都不聽。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:54:36.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:54:48.280000+08:00","text":"就剛才我所提出的，綠能買了六、七塊錢，但是賣三塊多，這樣做生意怎麼做都\n351\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n是賠錢，這一定是這樣。","quality":0.509},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:54:49.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:54:55.086000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法共體時艱，請他們也降，我們這裡減少是不是就會拉低？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:54:55.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:03.614000+08:00","text":"現在變成是這樣，有辦法做綠能就是財團。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:06.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:27.769000+08:00","text":"我還是希望董事長和常次，既然你們要來做這些報\n告，至於後面那 1,000 億，用追加或是用什麼，我再看，大家好好商量一下，反正既成事實的東\n西要去做，這些撥補或是追加，我想大家還是可以談。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:31.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:48.792000+08:00","text":"謝謝國成，國成剛剛已經接連問了很多問題，特別是洪申翰洪委員一直在爭取 1,000 億要併\n同這個，像他也提了，你不要併進來且討論完之後，追加了 1,000 億，到時候又要追加另一個\n1,000 億，這樣子人民就不滿了，這等一下我們請連次長或是文生來解釋一下，好不好？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:49.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:50.433000+08:00","text":"在這之\n前我們先讓玉珍講一下，請玉珍。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:52.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:53.014000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:54.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:55:55.955000+08:00","text":"委員、各位官員，大家午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:55:57.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:56:54.327000+08:00","text":"台電是處於虧損的狀態，金額已經超過四千\n多億，自從 2022 年到現在，經濟部與能源署分別於前瞻基礎建設計畫特別預算、112 年及 113\n年公務預算和疫後的特別預算累積補助台電達 3,000 億，甚至在最近國際燃料價下跌後，台電成\n本又下降，本會期還要追加千億預算給台電來彌補虧損，執政黨政府急著想要再生能源取代核\n能，卻未能兼顧能源供應之穩定性及成本控制，台電一直都在賠錢。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:56:56.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:57:03.377000+08:00","text":"土地等固定資產也沒有活\n化，導致台電光是 114 年債務利息就高達 321 億，創下歷年新高。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:57:03.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:57:47.685000+08:00","text":"近 3 年電價還是漲了 3 次，漲\n幅超過 3 成，但是電價審議委員討論過程都沒有直播，計算公式也不明，跟民生消費直接相關\n的產業雖然凍漲，這次漲價仍然影響數十萬產業的用電戶，一定會影響民生物價、民生生活的\n成本。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:57:48.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:58:11.935000+08:00","text":"退一步來說，本次調漲也只能填補台電 150 億的黑洞，連台電 1 年要付的利息的一半都\n不到，根本都是杯水車薪，可見台電的經營效益及財務管理有非常大的問題。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:58:12.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:58:31.859000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統政府一直強調能源轉型，但能源政策不明，到現在仍靠持續上漲的電價還有撥補 2\n兆來填補財務的漏洞，繼續浪費人民的血汗錢，執政黨捅出的國家級財務黑洞，不該強迫人民\n買單。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:58:44.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:59:32.592000+08:00","text":"我們民眾黨的國昌委員，在上個會期就質詢過行政院長卓榮泰能源配比的問題，結果卓\n院長一問三不知，賴總統能源政策只剩下口號而已，沒有計畫、沒有路徑，更沒有具體的作為\n，但口號治國沒有辦法處理臺灣能源的問題，更沒有辦法解決一般民生經濟的困境，因此召開\n能源專報是非常必要，錯誤的政策比貪汙更可怕。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:59:34.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:59:55.237000+08:00","text":"蔡政府 2025 年再生能源 20%的支票也是跳票；賴清德總統開了一張新的支票說 2026 年要達\n到，更加碼在 2030 年再生能源占比 30%，2050 年到 70%，請問要如何做到？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:59:55.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:59:58.059000+08:00","text":"大家都是喊口號跟\n喊數據，難道政府跳票都不用負責？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T13:59:58.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T13:59:58.559000+08:00","text":"行政院必須針對能源配比的政策說明，給民眾一個交代。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:00:15.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:00.314000+08:00","text":"因為不僅是要補助台電，再生能源及綠能也要編列預算補助，還有節能減碳也編列預算補助，\n所以我們歷年一直在說要怎麼樣節能減碳，怎麼樣減少大家的用電，學校冷氣甚麼時候要開、\n政府機關什麼時候開電，一直在做減電的倡導，但是電也是一直在漲價及虧損，所以這個部分\n是我們要好好研議的。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:00.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:00.874000+08:00","text":"以上報告，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:04.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:05.139000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:05.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:23.606000+08:00","text":"所以這專報本來要就賴清德政府的能源配比跟電價政策，剛剛兩位民眾黨的委員\n都有提到這個配比看起來問題滿多的，可能不容易達成，現在民進黨的黨團是說，除了先將這\n部分解釋清楚之外，也把 1,000 億的追加放進來。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:23.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:33.835000+08:00","text":"我們先來聽聽連次長講，講完之後再請曾董事\n長講，講完之後我們來做決定，決定兩件事情。","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:34.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:44.366000+08:00","text":"第一個，專報要不要進行，如果今天有共識我\n352\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n們就把專報排進去；第二個就是洪委員提的，專報的同時，要不要把 1,000 億的追加放進來，就\n做這兩個決定。","quality":0.707},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:45.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:01:46.168000+08:00","text":"沒有，今天國民黨沒有來。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:01:50.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:00.042000+08:00","text":"民眾黨排這個協商，民進黨團也很有誠意的出席，只是因\n為國民黨沒有來，看起來不太可能達成什麼共識。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:02.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:02.403000+08:00","text":"他們有簽到。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:02.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:04.485000+08:00","text":"他們是簽到，但是協商要簽名。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:05.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:09.168000+08:00","text":"申翰，他們國民黨有來簽到，因為他們現在在開黨團會議。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:09.168000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:10.168000+08:00","text":"他們是簽到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:09.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:11.610000+08:00","text":"不過我們兩個黨如果做了決定，他們就會支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:11.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:13.071000+08:00","text":"有這種事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:13.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:14.071000+08:00","text":"沒有，他是說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:14.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:15.071000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:13.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:21.137000+08:00","text":"申翰，申翰，現在只有兩個，我們今天要決定的就是要不要開這個專報，對不對\n？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:21.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:23.538000+08:00","text":"你們如果同意，專報就一定要進行了，國民黨不會反對啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:23.538000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:24.538000+08:00","text":"我們同意要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:24.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:02:36.236000+08:00","text":"第二個是你剛剛提的，1,000 億的追加預算要不要併案，他們解釋完之後，我們聽聽連次長\n跟文生董事長，我們就來做決定，做二選一這個決定，好不好？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:02:36.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:03:15.764000+08:00","text":"是，主席，我要再說一次，我是針對今天這個議案，今天這個議案的討論，第一個，\n我建議把這個議案等到禮拜五，韓院長、卓院長找朝野的委員們、黨團們，一起討論接下來包\n括總預算、前瞻預算、台電追加減預算接下來怎麼安排，會有一個大致的時程規劃，今天如果\n要這個專報，我們希望併同 1,000 億的追加減，而不是獨立拉出來另外一天。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:03:18.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:03:34.595000+08:00","text":"理由講得很清楚，\n因為這是一個完整的東西，如果顧及一體兩面的周全性，應該放在一起報告，併同進去，這事\n情我覺得我們可以討論，但目前並不贊成把它分開不同天。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:03:36.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:03:56.984000+08:00","text":"我們認為比較完整的是，因為今天\n國民黨也不在，我建議禮拜五兩院做一個交流，過去有的爭議，看大家怎麼去化解、去和緩，\n我們一起把後面這些事情一併討論，我覺得是比較周全的做法，我們的看法是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:03:57.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:04:17.637000+08:00","text":"再一個是\n，針對剛剛兩位委員所說，我還是想說，因為這個法當初是我們一起立的，我說電業法第四十\n七條，剛剛不管國成委員也好，或是麥玉珍委員也好，都有講到這次的電價審議委員會的機制\n，是大家朝野一起有共識的，民間的委員過半。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:04:18.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:04:36.270000+08:00","text":"事實上這是 10 月的電價審議機制裡面，民間的\n審議委員也真的過半了，過半的民間委員也真的在這個審議會裡面發生了影響力，也不是都是\n行政部們想怎樣就全部照著過，並不是這樣。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:04:36.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:04:58.943000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛大家又把電價審議機制罵了一頓，我心\n裡有點錯亂，我們在今年 7 月通過的時候，大家都覺得很好，都覺得跨出了很重要的一步，也\n覺得朝野合作在這邊有一個重要的基礎，結果怎麼過了 3 個月，大家就把這事情全部罵了一頓\n，7 月的時候不是大家都覺得很好嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:04:59.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:01.524000+08:00","text":"都覺得我們為電價審議機制的專業化邁進了一大步嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:01.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:02.184000+08:00","text":"當\n時不是都這樣覺得嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:02.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:17.332000+08:00","text":"所以這個地方現在就是執行了，一個是今天議案上面的問題，我覺得我\n們先優先處理好不好？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:17.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:34.442000+08:00","text":"電價審議委員會的改革是兩大塊，一個是民間跟專業要二分之一；第二個更重要的是要公開\n353\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n透明，所以他們在兩個禮拜內把它公開透明，當天有紀錄，大家會檢視，沒關係，事實上就是\n大家會檢視那天他們到底夠不夠專業，有沒有幫人民去看，我們來檢視，好不好？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:35.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:36.603000+08:00","text":"我們力求簡短，請連次長先來，好不好？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:36.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:37.563000+08:00","text":"我們等一下趕快做決定，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:40.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:42.025000+08:00","text":"主席、3 位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:05:42.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:05:59.940000+08:00","text":"剛剛大家提到電力能源配比政策，我們目前在整個能源轉型政策還\n是用再生能源為主軸，同時搭配低碳天然氣發電，並推動地熱、氫能等新能源，來穩定供電、\n多元綠能跟減煤減碳。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:06:01.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:06:08.949000+08:00","text":"我們在 2030 年的能源配比是天然氣五成、再生能源三成、燃煤二成。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:06:10.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:06:45.496000+08:00","text":"至於目前再生能源的推\n動狀況，太陽光電到今年 8 月已經有推 13.6GW；離岸風電也有 360 座風機，裝置容量也達到 3\nGW；地熱目前有 6 個淺層地熱案場，還有十大地熱淺層目前正在進行探勘，尤其我們現在是由\n國營事業先行，目前正請中油、台電積極在做；水力發電目前也有一些初步的成果，發電量占\n全國的 1.7%。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:06:45.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:06:55.663000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛很多委員垂詢的電價審議，其實就是新的電價審議下來，我們外部委員有超過一半\n以上。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:06:56.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:07:30.912000+08:00","text":"跟大家報告一下，那天大家初步討論完之後，有一些共識決，這次電價調整是要秉持照\n顧民生跟穩定物價，兼顧產業競爭力這兩個原則來進行調整，同時我們針對產業用電，不是只\n有考慮到產業用電的成長、衰退，還考慮製造業的產值變化狀況，不會是考慮到他們銷售的情\n況，用這樣的幾個元素來做討論。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:07:32.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:07:58.894000+08:00","text":"最後決議住宅、小商店占所有用電戶的 95.2%不做調整，因為這也涉及到我們剛剛說的穩定物\n價，所以跟民生有關內需的部分，像跟食品有關的製造及零售，還有攤販、量販店、超市，反\n正就是民眾常常會去的，像超市這些就是凍漲。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:08:00.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:08:12.064000+08:00","text":"另外針對農、漁、學校還有社福團體，漲幅由\n目的事業主管機關編列經費支應，根據這幾個原則，我們做了這樣的一個調整。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:08:13.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:08:25.235000+08:00","text":"後來社會輿論有一些聲音出來，當然很多是根據前面的原則做了調整，我們也考慮到社會的\n一些聲音，又做了一些微調。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:08:25.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:09:05.229000+08:00","text":"像菸草業這一塊，本來是調 7%，後來恢復到 14%；本來診所這一\n塊百分之七十幾是不去調整，為了要維持一致性，就把醫院這一塊凍漲；那時候也考慮到餐食\n、外燴或團膳也是跟民生息息相關，所以也維持凍漲；當然花蓮旅宿業本來就是凍漲的，而且\n我們是延續 0403 地震的系列下來。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:09:05.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:09:20.202000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這一次外部委員是過半的，形成了共識，我們把相關的列表列出來時，我是那\n天的主席，我還特別問了 3 次「委員，這個東西大家同不同意？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:09:20.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:09:22.583000+08:00","text":"」大家一致說同意，我問了 3\n次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-10-09T14:09:23.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:09:43.377000+08:00","text":"所以這個是經過委員充分討論，而且我們差不多開了 3 個小時，逐一去看並且討論，整體\n的會議紀錄會在 2 個禮拜公開上網呈現給外界做檢驗，以上是我的初步報告。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:09:45.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:09:56.210000+08:00","text":"連次長是那天電價審議會的主席，當然現在看起來有些幅度都在改，剛剛講醫院本來要調整\n，後來就不漲了，可是菸草那塊就被罵慘了。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:09:57.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:03.969000+08:00","text":"老實講，今天交通部也有人來，交通部就在爭取\n，像台電漲了之後，臺鐵多了多少？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:04.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:04.970000+08:00","text":"2.28 億對不對？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:06.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:15.216000+08:00","text":"這可能找時間他們又要去問次長跟電價審\n議委員會，等一下我們有機會，今天可能來不及了，我們找時間再看看，可能內部自己要再檢\n討一下，好不好？","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:15.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:22.120000+08:00","text":"讓文生講完後，我們就趕快做決定，我是建議等一下用洪申翰洪委員的建議，到底要不要到\n354\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n禮拜五去？","quality":0.589},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:22.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:25.282000+08:00","text":"還是我們就是今天讓它通過，要不要併案這樣子，好不好？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:26.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:26.423000+08:00","text":"來，文生。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:27.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:29.045000+08:00","text":"曾董事長文生：謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:30.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:39.312000+08:00","text":"台電是國營事業，事實上真的在臺灣是孤行獨市，所以\n我們在國內沒得比較，就要跟全世界做比較。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:39.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:10:51.722000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們不去講歐洲、日本那種電價\n動輒超過 5 塊新臺幣，德國超過 10 塊新臺幣，那是用臺灣的倍數在算。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:10:52.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:11:06.253000+08:00","text":"我們最容易 benchmark\n的國家其實是韓國，韓國電力公司跟臺灣比較相像，它也是國營的，相對來講也是獨占事業。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:11:07.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:11:16.041000+08:00","text":"臺灣到目前為止電價都比韓國還要低，工業電價比它低，民生的電價更是低，他們的民生電價\n是 3.99 元，臺灣是 2.77 元，這是平均電價。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:11:20.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:11:47.830000+08:00","text":"其實我們有基礎的電價，就是 500 度以下的，現在\n電價的電費比 20 年前的價格還要低，比 2004 年的價格還要低，這個電價結構確實需要去面對\n，因為這 20 年來，臺灣大概所有的成本都漲了，更不用講國際燃料價格在這 20 年間其實是有\n一定程度的波動。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:11:48.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:12:09.541000+08:00","text":"站在國營事業的角度，立法院對國營事業的營運狀況有任何需要了解的地方，我們都會來報\n告，我也跟各位委員報告，我們現在談的是院會的報告，其實我們下個禮拜會去經濟委員會報\n告電價專報，也就是說電價專報是必然會報。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:12:09.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:13:11.647000+08:00","text":"現在台電遇到的狀況，需要大院支持的是，我們\n只針對民生的電價沒有反應所產生的落差，2022 年我們自己內部的估算大概差了 1,008 億，\n2023 年差了 1,001 億，這包含住宅跟小店家，2024 年（今年）我們預估是 800 億，其中有一個\n部分是因為國際燃料價格在這一段時間有稍微下來，但是我們也天天盯著波灣的狀況在看，前\n一陣子油價突然漲了 4%，昨天又掉下來了，我們也是在看著這整個波動的狀況，我們估算今年\n大概 800 億，所以整個來講，那個 1,000 億的追加預算，其實是高度地 fit，就是我們針對民生電\n價所承擔的政策責任而提的，我想在這邊特別跟各位委員做報告。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:13:12.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:14:11.721000+08:00","text":"各位委員另外關心的綠電價格等等，其實細節我很願意做說明，因為現在企業在買的綠電，\n他們在市場買的價格雖然不太一樣，但你會看到，從台電的躉購長期來看，除了扶植新的再生\n能源產業，可能它在前期的價格比較高以外，後段現在民間在市場上買的價格，不見得會比躉\n購的費率低，我們願意分析出來，當然我們也接到政策指示，因為我們要支持國內的產業擁有\n再生能源，有 RE 的憑證，可能台電躉購的這些相關的再生能源，也必須做一定程度的規劃，來\n支援我們的產業取得再生能源，這些工作開始進行，時間一發生下去，我非常願意跟各位委員\n報告它可能的走向會走到什麼地方。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:14:12.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:14:23.528000+08:00","text":"至於大家很關心的核電問題，我還是要回答，台電是事業\n單位，因為現在的法律規定，我們就是要靜待政策決定，我想在這邊特別跟委員做報告，謝謝\n。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:14:23.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:14:24.148000+08:00","text":"聽了曾文生董事長講的，他應該很想要來專報，對不對？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:14:32.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:14:38.785000+08:00","text":"事實上，如果就剛剛林國成委員跟\n麥玉珍委員提的，我們為什麼當初要提這個能源配比？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:14:38.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:14:43.187000+08:00","text":"就是因為我們覺得現在的能源配比是有\n問題的，剛剛國成不是有講嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:14:45.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:15:00.155000+08:00","text":"過去蔡政府的 8 年，你看再生能源才增加了 5%，結果你們的能\n源配比，現在說 2 年 2 個月以後要增加 10%，不可能達到嘛，然後最便宜的核能又被廢掉，我\n不要多話了，我主持會議不要多話，我們來做決策啦，好不好？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:15:00.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:15:05.860000+08:00","text":"現在看起來，台電跟經濟部認\n為應該要有專報，對不對？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:15:05.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:15:16.351000+08:00","text":"他們希望把事情講清楚，對台灣民眾黨來講，我們也認為應該要有\n專報，只是民進黨現在提要把追加的 1,000 億併同來報，現在到底是要兩個還是一個？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:15:16.351000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:15:18.371000+08:00","text":"355\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:15:18.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:17.825000+08:00","text":"我先說，第一個，剛剛其實我們大家滿充分地討論了，彼此我覺得也針對很多的問題\n去做了一些釐清，我自己是建議，今天因為第一個，國民黨也沒來，坦白說不知道他們的看法\n怎樣，我不知道為什麼他簽個到就跑了；第二個，今天我們這個議題，我是建議等到禮拜五朝\n野的聚會、聚餐結束以後，到時候會做一個比較完整的規劃，好幾個項目都會一整個排出來，\n到時候看怎麼規劃，我們再來討論看要怎麼樣，因為 1,000 億一定是需要專報的，院長一定是要\n來報的，我是說 1,000 億追加減的部分，院長一定是要來報告的，我們並不反對，如果今天要有\n這個能源配比跟電價機制的話，就併在那裡面，用併同的方式併在裡面，我們不反對。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:17.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:18.825000+08:00","text":"這樣會不會剝奪他們多講一次的機會？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:18.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:19.825000+08:00","text":"人家搞不好單獨討論、單獨辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:19.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:21.503000+08:00","text":"他們下禮拜就要去經濟委員會，針對這個議題報告了。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:21.503000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:22.503000+08:00","text":"院會耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:21.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:21.864000+08:00","text":"院會你比較有機會來啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:21.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:22.064000+08:00","text":"不是、不是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:22.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:22.544000+08:00","text":"不要只有我們經濟委員會的委員……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:22.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:16:24.025000+08:00","text":"不是，主席，我要說，大家都很清楚，也經過了一個會期。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:16:37.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:28.123000+08:00","text":"第一個，在報告上面，其\n實一定會針對這個部分多所著墨，清楚地說明，而且是由院長來說明，如果併在一起的話，一\n樣也會報告到這一點，要問的話、要質詢的話，也一定都質詢得到，就算沒有報告，前面幾個\n禮拜大家也質詢非常非常多次了，從來沒有迴避，也都可以質詢得到，所以不管是報告也好，\n質詢也好，我們覺得把它併到 1,000 億追加減的報告裡面，如果是這樣的話我們可以接受，我們\n不贊成把它分開，但是我覺得我們整體建議就是等到禮拜五朝野聚餐以後再來一併討論，我們\n的看法是這樣子。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:28.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:33.688000+08:00","text":"現在總預算被退回程序委員會，你怎麼知道這個 1,000 億一定進得來？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:34.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:35.749000+08:00","text":"真的不單獨先處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:35.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:39.472000+08:00","text":"你現在把 1,000 億這個先拿掉，我們先把那個專案報告……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:39.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:40.472000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:40.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:41.472000+08:00","text":"有沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:41.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:42.472000+08:00","text":"所以我說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:42.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:17:43.472000+08:00","text":"1,000 億進不進得來都還不知道，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:17:41.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:08.529000+08:00","text":"主席，我現在講的就是，這是民進黨團的主張，我們絕對不會迴避，針對能源政策、\n能源配比、電價機制的報告跟詢答，沒有迴避、我們沒有迴避，下禮拜在委員會就有了，都沒\n有迴避，只是我們針對……","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:08.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:09.409000+08:00","text":"要不要就通過今天的專案，我們就開一次院會的專報？","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:10.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:22.453000+08:00","text":"針對今天這個事情，我們的主張就是這樣，因為國民黨沒來，我覺得我們把我們的態\n度表達了，國民黨都沒來，我們也很有誠意在這邊把我們的看法很完整地跟大家報告了，謝謝\n。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:22.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:25.014000+08:00","text":"我是建議這樣啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:25.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:26.395000+08:00","text":"我們可能也要先離開了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:27.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:18:50.185000+08:00","text":"我是建議主席這樣，申翰的這些建議，當然我們還是可以考慮，但是第一個，我認為\n356\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 82 期 黨團協商紀錄\n專報歸專報，禮拜五因為兩院院長跟三黨的黨鞭有一個見面的協商，這個專報因為不影響，我\n們還是照樣專報。","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-09T14:18:57.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:19:40.648000+08:00","text":"那申翰提的，禮拜五如果大家氣氛還不錯，才請主席把它併進去，這樣的話\n就變得比較圓滿，那 1,000 億你現在把它併進去，說實在的，這樣也太衝動了，因為他們談得怎\n麼樣，大人談得怎麼樣都不曉得，我們就去做決定，這樣也不太好，所以我們還是先通過，這\n個專報還是照報，因為這個是院會交下來的，我們今天討論的就是你願不願意來報告，如果院\n長也願意來，把這個 1,000 億附上去，這個也是 OK 的，所以我建議單獨通過這個，那些就等禮\n拜一以後再來做議決。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:19:40.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:19:41.648000+08:00","text":"好，趕快作個結論，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:19:41.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:19:42.648000+08:00","text":"林次長跟曾董事長，你們回去反映一下，包括經濟部跟……玉\n珍不好意思，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:19:42.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:19:43.648000+08:00","text":"我講一下，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:19:43.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:20:06.584000+08:00","text":"因為黨團協商，我也算三長，禮拜五也會見面，所以我們不管\n是黨團協商、跟兩院見面，還是沒有見面，各個部會都會來找我們的黨團溝通，才能達到共識\n，對不對？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:20:06.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:20:07.185000+08:00","text":"再來黨團協商才能有結果，不是嗎？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:20:07.185000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:20:08.185000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:20:07.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:20:44.465000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們就是讓大家有一個機會\n，事先討論達成共識，上去再跟我們三長報備，我們再去協商，才能圓滿，這個就是這段時間\n各個部會找我們說明的用意，對不對？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:20:44.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:21:19.212000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天有這個機會，韓院長也給我們這樣的權力\n做黨團協商，但是我們沒辦法達成共識，大家有誠意一起來協商，但是沒有達成共識，我們就\n要回報，禮拜五怎麼決定，不能說我們總預算退回去，你們也沒有任何動作、沒有任何修改，\n這樣子的話，對我們立法院的委員一點尊重都沒有，這個就是我們要表達的意思，所以要請主\n席做決定。","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:21:19.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:21:50.852000+08:00","text":"今天因為是三黨協商，但是有人簽名卻沒有到場，這個協商也沒辦法達成共識，雖然他們沒\n有來足人，但是我們民眾黨很有誠意來聽聽你們講的，聽聽看我們是不是可以幫你們講話，是\n不是？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:21:51.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:21:57.096000+08:00","text":"我們的用意很清楚、很理性，也希望達成共識，所以我們才要辦這樣子的一個協商，我\n們 8 個就來 3 個了，我們是很有誠意的，也希望你們提出你們的困難，或者需要我們去協商的\n，我們有機會也可以幫大家講話，這個不是對的嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:21:57.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:21:58.016000+08:00","text":"我們要福國利民，不是為了反對而反對啊\n，是不是這樣？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-09T14:22:19.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:22:24.560000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望大家都有充分地討論，也請主席裁示，謝謝。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:22:26.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:22:42.923000+08:00","text":"今天的協商非常理性、務實、科學，不只是洪申翰跟台灣民眾黨立委的對談，還有跟官員也\n都非常理性、務實、科學，現在林次長還有台電這邊應該是希望兩個嘛，我這樣聽下來，是希\n望有一個專報，那要不要把這個 1,000 億併進來？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:22:42.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:22:46.524000+08:00","text":"你們回去跟院長、跟經濟部那邊也再討論一下\n，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:22:48.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:22:53.547000+08:00","text":"玉珍是幹事長，他禮拜五會在，你可以把你們的一些建議跟玉珍說，請玉珍幫你們\n表達，好不好？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:22:57.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:23:01.610000+08:00","text":"我們就等禮拜五，看他們協商怎麼樣，之後我們再來做最後決定，好不好？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:23:01.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:23:05.131000+08:00","text":"好\n，我宣讀一下最後的決定。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:23:05.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:23:15.915000+08:00","text":"報告黨團協商會，今天沒辦法達成共識，所以本案保留，送請韓國瑜院長協商，協商會議結\n束以後，我們再來進一步討論，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:23:16.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-09T14:23:18.376000+08:00","text":"現在宣布協商會議結束，謝謝大家，散會。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-09T14:23:18.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-09T14:23:20.018857+08:00","text":"散會（14 時 23 分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-09T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於國際燃料成本下跌，台電今年1－7月的平均每度售電成本降至每度3.7117元，較去年相比，成本下降0.45元以上；然台電財務目前仍處在多賣多虧狀態，今年1－7月的稅前虧損為529億元，總累計虧損已達4,348億元。為補貼龐大財務黑洞，台電打算追加1,000億元預算，若再加上經濟部於明（114）年度公務預算編列1,000億元給台電，將有兩個千億台電電費補貼案待本院審查。台電董事長曾文生表示，這是要「補貼民生電價沒有漲足的部分」，若無法追加預算，不排除10月份再漲電價。台電經營未能符合「國營事業管理法」規定，力求「有盈無虧」之原則，全面調漲電價將更嚴重衝擊民生物價，賴清德政府上任迄今，更無法回覆本院委員「國家能源政策與配比」，顯見民進黨政府的能源配比「只有口號、毫無規劃。」爰建請院會作成決議：「113年9月23日（星期一）加開院會，邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長就『賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策』進行專案報告並備質詢，質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派7人、民進黨黨團推派7人、台灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行，每位委員詢答時間15分鐘；質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。名單請於9月20日（星期五）下午5時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。」是否有當？請公決案。）","委員發言時間":"13:00:17 - 14:29:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}