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喔 抱歉抱歉抱歉好好好我忘了要介紹列席官員那列席官員有環境部部長彭啟明、彭部長"},{"start":2038.619,"end":2063.799,"text":"環境部政務次長施文貞政務次長、氣候變遷署蔡雲怡署長、資源循環署賴盈盈署長、環境管理署顏旭明署長、國家環境研究院劉忠勇院長、大氣環境司張順清司長、水質保護司王月斌司長、"},{"start":2066.346,"end":2092.045,"text":"監測資訊司胡明輝副司長、經濟部產業發展署楊志清署長、綜合規劃司蘇惠君專門委員、標準檢驗局洪一生組長、能源署廖芳林組長、台灣電力股份有限公司郭天和副總經理、台灣中油股份有限公司謝茂傑處長、"},{"start":2094.295,"end":2098.182,"text":"好那接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2106.278,"end":2121.745,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在座的政府官員還有媒體朋友大家早安我環境部長來報告台灣的碳費收費標準還有決議主要的內容如這個4個所附大家知道其實碳定價在全世界是一個非常重要的一環目前在亞洲來說的話我們已經有5個國家這樣做我們是第6個國家來實施碳定價"},{"start":2127.148,"end":2150.419,"text":"那碳定價有分碳費稅是一種那另外一個就是所謂碳交易碳交易種目前大概多數的國家是選擇兩位並行是主要的一個原因那我們國家因為過去這幾年推動碳費有一段的過程所以我們還是以碳費我上任之後就是還是努力的在過去這四個多月把這個後面的過程把它接手完成"},{"start":2150.859,"end":2165.534,"text":"那最重要的是說我們這個碳費是為了要達成我們國家減碳目標NDC24-1的重要一個里程碑我們算過如果我們每個企業都提自主減碳計畫的話大概可以減到14%這個是比過去自主減碳都來得有效"},{"start":2166.135,"end":2194.23,"text":"那我們目前大家一定很懷疑說這個碳費是不是收得太高或太低其實我們針對國際的定義,碳定價裡面包含了這種所謂的平均化石的燃料稅還有我們所定義的碳費的制度各位可以看得到我們日本跟韓國它的排碳量比我們的多它的這種所謂的化石燃料稅其實也比我們多了是我們的兩倍到三倍左右一個幅度所以其實我們台灣的這個碳費的這個比例是高或低其實還是屬於偏低的但是各位還是會從這個費率的價錢覺得"},{"start":2196.011,"end":2218.237,"text":"我們似乎比日本高一點點但是你要以整體的來看雖然說我們的碳費的用途是為了減碳那所謂的這個燃料稅還有一些別的用途但是在廣義上碳定價都是把這個算成裡面的一個一環那我們預計呢我們未來碳費徵收之後在未來幾年內也會開始實施這個碳交易的這個制度因為我們從碳費的溝通過程當中所有的產業都告訴我們說"},{"start":2219.677,"end":2244.977,"text":"他們還是認為碳交易是一個未來的一個國際上的主要的主軸他們也願意來做這個事情那目前呢我們這個碳費的這個主要是根植於氣候法所以三個執法呢我們在8月底的時候已經完成了那碳費徵收費率呢上個禮拜開完徵收費率委員會我們在10月9號也進行這個預告的工作那目前呢這個三執法跟碳費的徵收都是因為氣候變遷因應法提供的28條跟29條的一個內容"},{"start":2247.139,"end":2268.71,"text":"我們已經如期的一個公布那事實上就是符合這裡面的標準那碳費是什麼時候開始開徵明年1月1號開始開徵但是呢我們在今年的費率上的話我們會給企業一點試行的這個機會也就是說明年5月就要申報今年的費率但是不交錢這個是我們的讓企業能夠來習慣這個碳費制度那如果我們明年1月1號開始徵收這個"},{"start":2271.252,"end":2284.052,"text":"這個起徵的開點的話他預計的是114年等於後年的5月我們才會真是收到這個實質上的一個費用那目前呢我必須說碳費是一個減量工具不是財政工具所以他其實是一個減量為出發點並不是說"},{"start":2286.655,"end":2307.63,"text":"來做一個政府的稅收他是一個過度轉型的一個功能所以其實我們設計的就是鼓勵企業他如果提出自己減量的目標這個就是說企業如果很努力的減肥那這個其實他我們會把你說你是不是體質上好不好或是說你要如何去減高碳洩漏的指的是說這些企業如果我們沒有給他優惠他可能就跑到這種所謂不排碳的"},{"start":2308.07,"end":2325.622,"text":"排碳沒有這種所謂碳費的國家像越南、東南亞一些國家去所以我們給他一些高碳洩漏風險的這個比例那裡面的還有一個係數0.2、0.4、0.6目前初期是0.2但是各位知道全世界有這樣的制度的都有所以慢慢的就會把它拉回來拉到一個正常的標準值"},{"start":2326.122,"end":2329.764,"text":"非乾化洩漏優惠值2.5萬噸其他如果什麼都不做就是乘以一般的費率這個費率規劃的重點有一個K值這個也會隨著未來調整例如說現在是2.5萬噸未來可能減到1萬噸甚至不減"},{"start":2348.336,"end":2348.516,"text":"自主減碳計畫"},{"start":2363.904,"end":2384.511,"text":"說真的他要付出這樣的這個成本會更高但是他大家都知道說我做這個是我自己去體制的調整這個比實際上費率他來的來的重要那我目前呢我們現在有標竿一標負負表一負表二就削減率這個部分呢就是一個是42一個是23就適用於優惠費率這個目前我們可以預期可以減到3700萬噸等於是說這個對我們減量是很有一個成效的"},{"start":2388.132,"end":2388.572,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":2410.543,"end":2428.352,"text":"我第6次的本議委員會我們就決定了這個300塊跟100塊跟50塊那這個一般費率是300塊優惠費率是100塊那這個都有參考到臨近的一個國家的費率那如果要得到最低的50塊的這個優惠費率其實它的挑戰性是42%是有一定的挑戰性的"},{"start":2428.852,"end":2457.443,"text":"那這個裡面對於我們的這個經濟的物價的影響我們都有算過CPI GDP的影響都不是很高所以各位請可以放心那我們也算過多少的碳費繳多少的情境所以例如說你排在那1000萬噸的企業如果如果你很努力大概最後只要繳到1億這個不是說如同很多人會繳個30億這樣的一個額度所以基本上我們都有把它試算出來那今天的經濟日報也特別算出來對企業的毛利造成多少的衝擊他也是引述我們的資料"},{"start":2458.223,"end":2482.924,"text":"其實也特別強調說企業只要努力去做這個其實影響毛利不會那麼的大的這個是一個很正面的一個報導那未來我們會跟經濟部合作來提供輔導的力道例如說我們減碳的減斷或是碳費的一個收入那未來我們會提供三大的基金前面兩個基金綠色成長我們正在申請當中然後跟金管會的綠色金融創新保險業的資金我們也正在進行當中已經在談一些細節了"},{"start":2483.704,"end":2498.369,"text":"那這個兩個完成之後跟創投業者的近年的基金我們也會同步來啟動這個都不是花政府現在除了這個國發基金是我們政府的基金之外其他都是來自於民間導向的基金當然我也希望貴院可以在預算上面給我們未來的支持喔"},{"start":2499.089,"end":2525.263,"text":"我們這個另外一個大家最關心的CBAN其實我們目前已經跟歐盟談好一個實際上的一個溝通協調上個月我也去了上個禮拜我也到了日本談這些事情其實獲得非常正面的一個回饋完全可以抵沒有問題但是各位知道人家是收70塊歐元我們是只有300塊所以未來我們會慢慢慢慢2027年接軌了之後開始我們應該就可以有一定的費率可以更接近一點點那目前這個我們會推動"},{"start":2526.904,"end":2546.253,"text":"臺版的CBAN,那當然臺北CBAN是很複雜的事情,我們明年會開始,我們會整合各個部會,要求我們的競爭對手,例如說水泥的進口業者要在事情申報這個排放強度,那很多的業者提供的建議,例如說排放強度為主,不是總量為主,我們也會來考慮,那最重要的是說,因為現在社會上對於這個"},{"start":2548.474,"end":2571.513,"text":"減碳已經是一頭熱那但是呢其實我必須說我必須想要把它降溫起來各位知道我們這碳費這次只針對281家公司那事實上我們上市櫃公司在金管會要求之下1800餘家公司他也必須未來再幾年要推動碳盤查、碳申報、查驗證那另外一個呢就是供應鏈的要求例如說蘋果的手機他需要他要求你提供他的排碳係數除了這個之外"},{"start":2573.775,"end":2601.233,"text":"都不需要做你只要真的我們政府環境部或是我們經濟部的碳盤查的驗證的系統就夠了所以現在的的確是個社會上一團亂很多的課程我們在這邊也藉由這個機會公開的喊話不必要浪費時間而且會造成整個查驗證的系統的混亂目前我們有115家的查驗證的公司大概有兩千一百五十幾位從業人員在做這個事情只要我們台灣願意這樣做我們把外面這個炒作的降溫"},{"start":2604.035,"end":2608.681,"text":"以上所有的報告 這個挑戰非常的大 也希望貴院可以給我們更多的一個支持 謝謝"},{"start":2610.762,"end":2634.995,"text":"好謝謝彭部長的報告那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做一下宣告本位委員詢答6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上10點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2639.878,"end":2645.462,"text":"10點30分截止收案好那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長"},{"start":2657.817,"end":2676.278,"text":"陳委員早部長早今天您報告了這個碳費的收費標準那碳費就是為了因應整個氣候變遷的這個關係那環境部竟然從早期的環保署升格為環境部我想國人跟民眾對於環境部是會期許說要承擔更大的責任那我今天有幾個議題跟"},{"start":2678.079,"end":2691.789,"text":"部長做討論,第一個就是都市的熱島效應現在越來越嚴重了,不知道部長您對這個部分有沒有一個基本的解方,就是都市熱島效應需要哪一些部門、哪一些政府機構來配合"},{"start":2693.546,"end":2704.115,"text":"報告委員 這個其實我在民間的時候就在做這個事情所以其實第一個他是地方政府跟中央政府一起要來合作所以其實目前我必須跟委員談成關於熱 熱傷害並沒有一個中央組織部會是負責這個熱的事情"},{"start":2708.959,"end":2726.189,"text":"那我也會再到時候再跟行政院那邊報告是不是誰要來主責但是如果未來要希望環境部來主責我個人是非常願意來進行這樣協同的規劃因為都市最多的就是這個建築物和道路的路面因為白天會吸收非常多的這個太陽熱能"},{"start":2726.969,"end":2726.989,"text":"：文貴議員"},{"start":2743.297,"end":2753.223,"text":"那內政部但是事實上我們了解他並沒有把這件事當作優先的這個項目那您在今年7月31要跟環境部跟衛福部還有勞動部有共同主辦的一個一場氣候邊遷高溫調適的對策研討會所以就你也提到剛剛你也這樣說了對於極端熱這個做法目前並看不出哪一個部會會來主責所以我自己想要拜託部長我也剛剛也聽到你有這樣的回應就是說是不是由部長跟部長帶領環境部"},{"start":2772.534,"end":2773.174,"text":"提出了修法的草案我在第5條第3項的第9款"},{"start":2800.02,"end":2816.662,"text":"所以讓環境部可以依此來要求內政部等部會來配合推動都市的環境綠化覆蓋率的提升還有從這個建築的技術、工法跟它的建材來提升建築的能效請問部長您支持我這樣的一個修法建議嗎"},{"start":2817.923,"end":2832.976,"text":"謝謝委員 委員你這個方式非常的好但是我也回去跟因為這個是氣候變遷整個行政院氣候變遷的這個永續會的一個主要的一個功項但是我也坦承這個熱我們並沒有去重視"},{"start":2833.696,"end":2849.286,"text":"所以委員再給我們一點時間我待會去延商但是我非常肯定委員能夠給我們一樣一個實際上的建議董事、行政跟立法部門一起來努力部長另外一個議題就是前幾天有一個報告內容是來自環境部的檢測報告那很多人看了非常驚訝就是醫院的放流水"},{"start":2849.906,"end":2852.088,"text":"臺中榮總市黃岸類藥品超標2、3倍其每醫院有3項抗生素嚴重超標其中頭包子菌類抗生素超標3700多倍"},{"start":2868.101,"end":2894.028,"text":"連衛福部的桃園醫院也被驗出中文叫福奎諾同類的抗生素也高出標準許多這兩天中融跟部桃都陸續對外公開澄清行政院退伍會說他們檢驗的結果都符合標準這件事有點嚴重部長他說他們沒有但是環境部的檢測報告是有"},{"start":2894.528,"end":2912.913,"text":"那是不是說要有個公正的第3次再做一次還是說大家可以比對一下你檢驗的方法檢驗的時間點等等等等就是這個是有關中融中融他說他是符合標準的就是退伏會來說明那衛福桃醫院講的就是水中抗生素可能來自服用病人的"},{"start":2915.475,"end":2931.231,"text":"本來就是這樣啊醫院照顧病人病人這個擔心病人會感染不管是預防性使用或是治療性使用抗生素使用是跑不掉的就是說這只是說明來源但是這個還是要處理因為這麼嚴重的這個抗生素超標它不是水汙染的問題"},{"start":2932.532,"end":2932.652,"text":"主席"},{"start":2948.579,"end":2961.245,"text":"無藥可用的結果大家就知道所以抗藥性一直是一個非常重要的問題那醫院這個環境跑出這個問題所以部長到底就發生什麼事情就是說為什麼他們會有不一致的說法部長你可以稍微簡單的說明一下這個發現嗎其實這個我們是用"},{"start":2965.247,"end":2989.234,"text":"第一個大家相信環境部的這個中立的客觀的態度我們檢驗方法是用最嚴格的標準來看那這個是針對這個所謂的抗生素的標準不是放流水的標準所以醫院的確他有些超過基本的數值然後非常的多有些醫院但是我也必須說他沒有立即的危害但是我們長期來看對環境一定會有一些影響所以我們其實未來我們也希望醫院可以主動的能夠來檢討然後持續的追蹤"},{"start":2989.394,"end":2989.614,"text":"環境部都用代號稱呼"},{"start":3005.484,"end":3026.237,"text":"或是說把這個醫院的名稱遮掩起來為什麼要用代號或遮掩起來呢這是問題蠻嚴重的為什麼要遮掩起來呢你知道美國食品藥管理局他們只要查任何藥廠哪一些不合格的他就馬上公告上網上網他可以改善啊改善以後就沒有啦就大家就會用這個方式來檢驗啊就是以示公正啊也讓國人有知的權利啊為什麼把名字遮起來呢吳清水報4張來回答"},{"start":3032.16,"end":3036.181,"text":"關注的項目90項分年做了一些調查因為它還是在調查當中那還不是一個標準的方法"},{"start":3061.627,"end":3070.375,"text":"因為他的項目非常的多,然後對象也非常的多,所以一般我們參考國外的做法,就是分年會做調查那這就是分年調查到一個階段之後呢,我們把它公告為我們接下來要強制遞減申報、削減的一些項目那為什麼現在已經有建議啦,就是說對這些醫院他有提出這個自主管理的建議,但是沒有裁判,建議都提出來了耶"},{"start":3083.806,"end":3104.497,"text":"就是建議他們要怎麼做但是沒有裁法就算說最後研究計畫結束我們真正要進行去處理的話部長那是不是說應該要有裁法也許你可以說第一次發現第一次發現我們是限期改善那沒有改善這裁法還是最有用的因為這個抗生素抗藥性產生是不得了的好嗎部長就是要往這個方向去做管理可以嗎"},{"start":3105.517,"end":3121.329,"text":"我們9月26日預告這個草案的草案出來然後預計如果未來超過的話會罰一萬以上六百萬以下的罰款我們下面還有一個很重要的議題去年開始除了馬祖那個臺南的這個沿海也開始出現藍眼淚那近期有這個學者指出"},{"start":3121.989,"end":3141.859,"text":"事實上藍眼類它是工業排放這個磷酸鹽或矽酸鹽所累積的生態反撲學者說藍眼類應該是一種環境污染的指標它不是奇蹟它是警訊就是排放的高濃度的磷酸鹽會造成河口沿海的這些生態跟養殖的負面影響"},{"start":3142.739,"end":3157.575,"text":"那環境部對於這個水源保護區、零酸鹽的排放還是有管理,但水源保護區以外呢?部長,你認為水源保護區以外的這個零酸鹽的這個管理,是不是要納管呢?因為這個目前沒有管理耶。"},{"start":3158.215,"end":3169.378,"text":"報告委員其實自然的這個磷酸鹽這樣這個藍眼淚這個其實OK的但是如果像這樣的它非自然的是屬於工廠工業牌上的都跑出藍眼淚了所以我們其實8月24號已經修改了這個預告的這個法案年底會開始公告所以這個磷酸鹽我們已經設定的標準所以部長已經在這個這件事已經在進行已經進行了"},{"start":3178.74,"end":3195.796,"text":"那這樣我要談到高科技工業重地、國科會科學園區零酸鹽的管理問題我們先就中科臺中園區環境小組不錯在2016年他有會議上率先請中科管理局訂定了零酸鹽的自主管理但我們沒有簽到其他的科學園區有跟進你看右邊這個小表格你看看我們從這個資訊可以來看兩件事情第一個"},{"start":3202.342,"end":3224.989,"text":"單一管理區各園區標準不一你看竹科園區它是60mg每一升但是這個榮潭園區它是120差了兩倍這第一個管理標準不一同一個園區第二個國科會有放任北中南三個科學園區各自為政有些有管理有些沒管理有些有定有些沒有定所以這樣的一個放任結果就是一國多治"},{"start":3226.009,"end":3246.502,"text":"那環境部是不是要把總齡這個要做一個管理有一定的標準進行總量管制還是說讓國科會自己去管理部長其實我們已經預告了年底會發布我們第一階段是150然後25我們會分階段來進行所以包括不會讓國家這個放任這個過去的總齡管制是一國多制囉"},{"start":3247.233,"end":3264.033,"text":"沒有,現在以我們為準那我再確定一下,就是總領館這件事不是國科會是環境部,是嗎?我這樣解釋對嗎?這個是環評,這個是環境影響評估裡面的當時個別的要求的一個標準那部長覺得03管制要不要這個入法?"},{"start":3265.09,"end":3290.475,"text":"我們現在的這個草案裡面已經年底就會重視報告如果你不重視這件事你一定是重視你才會把這次的這個失業廢水調查局屋苑管房居管理機關這個有把列入嘛把零算列入就是你們重視這件事情嘛所以是不是部長一定要去執行不要說科學園區他的標準比較寬鬆那環境部的比較嚴那一國多治沒有就全部以我們為準以我們為準這個年底會公告謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3293.516,"end":3297.779,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭芝委員的發言 接下來請林月琴委員發言主席好 麻煩部長 請彭部長林委員早部長早 我們今天要討論的 我想也是全國關注的"},{"start":3320.458,"end":3342.63,"text":"那這個議題在你上任我就有質詢那當時我很在意三件事也是今天要質詢追問的就是我們的碳費每公噸定價多少錢上週已經10月7號已經出來了那可是這每公噸300元雖然剛剛你報告講說好像事實上是比其他國家事實上還算"},{"start":3343.697,"end":3346.019,"text":"未來是不是能夠實質達到我們講的排碳效果還是虛擬了事 不知道第三個碳費收到之後到底作為什麼樣的用途"},{"start":3359.983,"end":3386.631,"text":"那確實我們看到環境部的簡報的時候我跟我們辦公室的夥伴討論說我們覺得這個定價呢雖然跟公民團體的期待有很大的落差公民團體是期待到500可是我覺得勉強接受因為你剛剛講說這300塊上的確很簡單很大膽也相對於比較於日本跟韓國跟新加坡的確事實上我們不是太高"},{"start":3388.513,"end":3388.533,"text":"致詢"},{"start":3397.483,"end":3424.898,"text":"所謂參考其他國家訂出300塊那訂出來的又比其他國家高這是什麼原因是不是請部長解釋一下報告委員我剛剛的簡報裡面就有說其實碳淨價還包含了這個化石燃料稅等等那我們日本跟韓國他的化石燃料稅是我們的大概將近2.5倍到3倍左右所以其實那個要統一來看那我們其實碳費的這個價格是考量到企業的競爭力所以基本上我們應該可以兩個分開來看"},{"start":3425.658,"end":3450.404,"text":"那我們300塊的定義呢是其實委員當時委員是上一次第5次是300到500然後後來呢他們最後討論是不是一個價格價格出來然後後來他們定義300當然我知道環團很不滿意我也很清楚但是我們其實也考量到未來如果國際競爭上如果不往上走的話其實那個錢都要繳到國外去所以我們還是折衷有一個費率那委員可以跟你報告我上禮拜在日本日本也覺得他們現在的這個稅"},{"start":3451.544,"end":3455.705,"text":"所以我這邊寫我們的定價很國際可是優惠很台灣就是說為什麼我也講說很有台灣味因為台灣人喜歡逛夜市、特賣會就像最近百貨公司週年期我相信每個假日都蜂擁而上很多我們的買重會去買"},{"start":3481.169,"end":3502.056,"text":"編譯"},{"start":3503.086,"end":3526.893,"text":"每公噸只要收100元那又因為擔心我們的高排排碳產業的那個所謂可以導致的所謂碳洩漏的風險所以我們又訂出了一個排份量調整係數50元再打兩折所以一公噸只剩下10塊錢比我們早餐店去加一個蛋還要便宜"},{"start":3527.577,"end":3549.526,"text":"所以部長我的看法是一公噸的那個排碳外部的成本根據美國環保署的研究來看的話每噸的那個排碳所造成的外部成本事實上是190塊約新台幣5800塊所以我們要定價打折的結果對台灣的環境跟我們的廠商這樣的減碳是不是有效果"},{"start":3550.326,"end":3577.276,"text":"其實報告委員我們不能只看那個價格因為例如說我舉例某一些一千萬噸的這個排炭的業者來看的話他要做到減個一百萬噸他的花的成本就是如同你說的可能是一噸要五千塊那我們其實是呢是不要一下子就給你拉到這麼的高初步的讓你有一個誘因來做所以我們是設計一種打折的原理所以其實我跟委員報告我們跟日本討論的結果他們反而羨慕他覺得我們的制度比較有彈性他們要來跟我們學習"},{"start":3578.576,"end":3592.81,"text":"所以這個其實是一個折衷後的一個結果,鼓勵的結果我剛講是外部成本會造成外部那所以我不要質疑這一點,原因很簡單是因為對比這些公司的營收尤其這三大戶"},{"start":3595.071,"end":3611.599,"text":"臺碩石化跟中國鋼鐵跟我們的台積電那你如果以比照你剛剛這邊表單裡邊剛剛你自己的報告裡邊有特別去提的因為如果按照這個排碳大戶我覺得排碳到1000萬公噸的工廠的話最低只要繳交"},{"start":3612.6,"end":3627.482,"text":"一億可是他們收的是上兆的一個營收可是你只要繳到一億那這樣子到底有效果嗎所以想問一下部長這樣子營收數千億碳費只佔他的九牛一毛的你覺得這樣力道誘因是否足夠"},{"start":3628.403,"end":3648.316,"text":"報告委員其實這個事情就牽涉到說有些台灣的企業其實我們跟經濟部也討論過他們也完整的瞭解讓我們瞭解說我們的確AI的產業很不錯可是有很多傳產像中鋼、中石化其實他們遇到經營很大的困難所以其實我們這次完全是採一個誘因的方式來進行"},{"start":3649.256,"end":3671.643,"text":"但是也跟委員報告其實我們發現其實這個制度很困難很辛苦沒有辦法兼顧每一個企業所以其實我自己未來我們期許是要走到總量管制的碳交易會比較有人性會比較更符合這個需求部長我還是說一聲辛苦了因為碳費制定當然很不容易可是也必須要深刻檢討了因為從質詢一開始到現在就質疑"},{"start":3672.028,"end":3678.774,"text":"10月7日定價一出,工商團體、環保團體甚至連我們的行政部門、經濟部通通都不買單那大家最有共識的就是一字不諒解這樣的定價跟做法"},{"start":3695.427,"end":3721.425,"text":"所以部長你自己來自我們的民間團體那過去呢你對這很多甚至這碳費你也知道未來事實上是應該是台灣必經之路可是很少過去我們很少看到一個政策出來沒有一方有時候是政府會滿意或者是民間團體會滿意可是現在是沒有一方是滿意所以我覺得這對新政府來講是一個警訊所以這點我覺得必須要深深警惕"},{"start":3722.285,"end":3738.817,"text":"千萬不能忽視要嘛就是及時調整我們的政策方向要嘛就是要講清楚說明白否則現在民間事實上還是存在很大的疑慮所以千萬不要存在行政部門的傲慢來逼民間就是吞了你的這樣的一個結果"},{"start":3740.154,"end":3755.16,"text":"未來大概我這邊有4個來問我們的部長第一個目前根據環境部給我的資訊因為這也是上個會期我就有問的問題就是說我們的徵收碳費的範圍大概只佔全國排碳量的55%可是還有45%的那個預計何時會擴大"},{"start":3759.227,"end":3784.756,"text":"目前這個我們兩年會檢討一次那其實我們也會觀察國際的趨勢像我舉例像歐盟他們大概ETS的第二階段大概2027年他涵蓋到85%那個影響層面就很大了所以我們會兩年會檢討一次來觀察這個走向好 第二齁因為這也是上個會期我一直在很關心就是說當初比較不希望有免徵2.5萬公噸可是現在已經確定是40那何時降為1.5到1萬公噸"},{"start":3791.162,"end":3796.108,"text":"環保團體比較關心的是我們的排放量的調整係數所以二三期大概何時會去啟動"},{"start":3798.586,"end":3820.679,"text":"這個大概也是要兩年目前其實初期應該不會那麼的快我們希望經營到可能有兩三年以後有一個這個基準年有一個成效之後我們再來看但是我也必須跟委員報告這個其實做這個決定一個數字沒有辦法滿足所有的產業這個是最大的問題所以我們是比較期待總量管制的碳交易才會製造減碳的生態系"},{"start":3821.954,"end":3848.718,"text":"好,第三就是,雖然剛剛你有講說,我們在媒體被採訪的時候也講是說跟歐盟的官員有這樣子的一個交談是交換意見是說他未來事實上是會可以去銜接可是第二我要問的是我們台灣版的剛剛你也提過說我們要做那這個到底是明年會去炒你台灣版的CBank還是還有什麼時候完成?"},{"start":3850.399,"end":3877.914,"text":"有議據嗎?有已經規劃了嗎?第一個我們要求進口的這種我們跟我們本地要收碳費的業者如果競爭對手進口來的一定要去申報這個我們會協調經濟部還有這個財政部一起來做這個事情那第二個呢這個台版的CBAN其實這個是很複雜的我們也在觀察歐盟然後歐盟明年年終細節才會出來所以現在都還是一個事情申報的階段所以我們希望明年他們出來全世界整個趨勢之後我們就會一定會來做這個事情"},{"start":3878.427,"end":3902.14,"text":"因為這是工商團體問嘛因為他也擔心說如果我們自己國內可是如果國外的進到台灣來的話你沒有管制的話一樣啊那對他們來講也是不利最後就是畢竟這些碳費的徵收我覺得未來到底你的用途是什麼因為根據國際勞工組織他今年4月就提出一份報告在整個氣候變遷裡邊"},{"start":3903.43,"end":3904.351,"text":"工作環境"},{"start":3923.693,"end":3926.494,"text":"不過我還是期待未來碳費收到的使用我還是希望有部分是用到照顧國人的健康"},{"start":3949.842,"end":3950.903,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的發言,接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":3977.332,"end":3981.213,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長請彭部長王委員早部長早我想這個碳費的徵收這件事情的確是非常的不容易那基本上我還是要肯定至少我們是踏出了這一步因為我要講相較於日本、韓國還有新加坡台灣我們啟動的這個碳定價時代"},{"start":4004.577,"end":4005.618,"text":"其實是太晚了我們到114年才正式啟動但是看看鄰近的國家人家日本從2008就開始韓國2015就在做新加坡2019也開始了我們是晚了人家很多時間"},{"start":4021.77,"end":4030.814,"text":"而晚了其他國家很多時間就造成我們在準備跟因應的工作其實是會變得我們時間壓縮的很短像歐盟他在2026年他就啟動了他的CBAN那在這樣的情況底下我們台灣準備時間這麼短我們怎麼樣在落實這個我們啟動的這個碳定價時代達到雙贏的目標所謂雙贏是要求企業有效的減碳"},{"start":4050.623,"end":4065.732,"text":"而且也要保有我們臺灣企業的競爭力這件工作坦白講是非常的不簡單而這當中現在可以發揮的關鍵因素就是我們政府可以去加大你的輔導的力道"},{"start":4066.793,"end":4068.254,"text":"總共要投入多少的經費預算"},{"start":4095.313,"end":4095.653,"text":"請問加起來有多少錢?"},{"start":4112.154,"end":4130.442,"text":"經濟部跟委員做一個說明我們在議後條例的預算有框了大概100多億然後是針對我們製造業從說明會開始讓他知道什麼是碳盤茶然後從老闆CEO班一直到員工到總經理你說100億是一年的經費還是幾年的經費?三年"},{"start":4133.483,"end":4143.012,"text":"一年平均下來大概只有30億嗎?那這樣真的不夠啊?剛剛部長自己說各縣市政府跟他要求的錢就到1000億了"},{"start":4145.046,"end":4145.066,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":4175.386,"end":4200.227,"text":"那我們這樣子怎麼樣去推動有效的減碳呢?為什麼你的預算反而是倒退的?好,包委員,我們環境部的企業屬是做整個政策的規劃那很多的這個執行,包含要跟經濟部還有各個部位合作是大家一起來推動的,所以不是說我們這邊少減但是減劣也不合理啊照道理來講,你這個要上路你要做的事情很多你基本上你的公務預算不應該還減劣啊"},{"start":4202.028,"end":4223.453,"text":"那另外一個要額外增加其他的預算才對啊所以經濟部現在一年也增加了30億那部長我請問你環境部額外的針對這件事情你們要增加的預算在哪裡你如果公務預算都是簡略的那你其他還有哪一些經費來輔導包括地方政府包括這一些企業做這個有效的轉型"},{"start":4224.366,"end":4231.512,"text":"報告委員我們的基金有增加第一個就是我們有一個溫管基金那這個費用有顯著的增加增加了多少"},{"start":4234.644,"end":4256.405,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在溫管基金113年的這個編列是5億多那明年的話有稍微增加到6億多還增加了1億啊所以我要講的是說我們現在一個是啟動的時間太晚一個是準備的配套不足第三個我們看到的是我們真的可以提列出來這些錢其實相較於各國都是少的"},{"start":4259.127,"end":4276.772,"text":"像歐盟2023年它是超過百億歐元這樣的一個資金美國它是240億美元用於低碳轉型跟付稅避免日本施發行了20兆的日元的綠色債券韓國它是擴大企業投資補貼活絡碳權市場"},{"start":4279.193,"end":4306.605,"text":"所以相較底下我覺得我們現在經濟部跟環境部我們所推出來的這些輔導措施都是力道不足所以這個也會造成剛剛部長我有聽到您在回答您在講到說這件事情很困難的確很困難但是如果我們政府如果行政院沒有這樣的意識我們整體投入的資金不足我覺得真正落實還會更加困難"},{"start":4307.705,"end":4332.294,"text":"因為就是你畫了一個很好的圖但是實質上企業他們遇到很多的困難根本落實不了然後政府又沒有資金去補助跟輔導所以最後的減碳就會一事無成就是說我們空有這樣的一個碳費制度但實質它達到的效果成效恐怕會大打折扣這個是一個最大的問題部長你有沒有跟行政院長、卓院長反映這樣的問題"},{"start":4333.394,"end":4350.778,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜在日本就是去關注委員你所關注的事情日本結合了經濟部、環境部、環境省、經產省還有財務財政廳他們一起三個部會合作成立一個綠色成長基金發行未來10年要發行20兆日幣的公債"},{"start":4354.039,"end":4382.496,"text":"氣候債券,然後也帶動民間的投資,總共是150兆那這件事情我也跟我們卓院長報告,所以他要我不斷的去研析因為這個東西其實在也需要這個立法院對大院的一個同意支持我們才可能轉型的過來那的確我們從我們上任我就跟院長報告這件事情那院長也非常的支持但是裡面有很多細節,包含預算還有它的效率怎麼去進行我們都一直在觀察成功國家的所謂的新的制度"},{"start":4383.116,"end":4399.361,"text":"以我們現在政府的預算來編列來做淨領我必須說全世界所有的國家照正常的預算都很難做得到都需要一個新的方法探定價完了之後才有辦法做得到這個也是我看到的問題以我們現在的力道我可以在這邊講就是沒有辦法做到沒有辦法做到這樣的力道"},{"start":4401.582,"end":4409.609,"text":"是非常的不足的所以這個部分我希望您跟經濟部還有國發會這個應該你們是要三位一體的在這件事情上要有一套很完整的制度很強的我們來輔助這一些台灣特別中小企業又很多你應該是要好好的這部分要好好去演你一套計畫出來"},{"start":4421.4,"end":4445.115,"text":"最後我要問你的是在碳費的部分你們估算你說縣市政府需要1000億然後你現在其實只有60億那這60億就顯得很可貴了就是你這個60億要怎麼優先去運用那你應該我這邊建議幾個重點第一個就是我們的碳費應該要考量你徵收來源的比例特別是排碳大戶周遭"},{"start":4446.016,"end":4469.344,"text":"就代表說它這邊需要更多的減碳的設施跟設備所以你在分配資源的時候應該要優先從這些區域開始去落實它周邊相關的減碳設施應該是要好好的來強化第二個是地方政府你應該要有一套機制讓他們來申請你剛剛講過這件事情中央做也做不到"},{"start":4469.764,"end":4480.571,"text":"要中央跟地方一起做所以要開放讓地方政府有一個計畫一個很明確的標準讓他們來申請然後透過這個計畫申請有效的在地方回過頭去輔導各地的這個經發局他們應該在地的產業他們透過這個計畫有效的去輔導企業來落實這樣的一個相關的檢探這樣子才能達到雙贏這樣的一個標準是不是部長可以承諾未來納入你在"},{"start":4498.881,"end":4525.787,"text":"這個將來至少這一筆60億你的專款專用應該要有一個標準來落實跟實施沒問題委員我們會照這樣的政策來做謝謝好那我想這個要落實這件事情真的很困難所以我們希望這個環境部跟經濟部就是加把勁然後這個行政院的部分也不能袖手旁觀就是要給這個兩個部會更多的資源那才有可能把這件事情就是達到我們想要達到的"},{"start":4526.827,"end":4553.033,"text":"真的實質減碳的目標。好不好?好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,接下來請廖偉祥委員發言。謝謝主席,有請我們的彭部長。彭部長。"},{"start":4557.638,"end":4578.531,"text":"委員早部長好部長早部長辛苦了但是說真的我們國家的這個碳費終於出來那真的也從這個2023、2024到2025真的也是很久那你也說國內的碳費屬於歐盟這個CBAN定義有效的碳價形式之一確定可以抵扣但我這裡想要請問那請問折抵的乘數到底是多少呢"},{"start":4579.695,"end":4605.42,"text":"現在其實他的細節大概明年年中才會出來那其實必須說他是一個國家一個國家會來談那我們台灣並不是歐盟前十大的這個進出口國所以我們有跟他談到就是委員提到我我明年環境部已經獲得行政院外交部的同意我們會派助人專門來協商這個事情對啊因為如果沒有辦法提高成數沒有達到百分之百的話那是不是出口到歐盟的廠商都需要另外再付一筆錢"},{"start":4606.48,"end":4622.188,"text":"部長如果說超過2.5萬噸的排放的287頁面臨的問題但是低於2.5萬噸要出口到歐盟那大概就只能像歐盟的CBAN買那個憑證對不對請問部長現在歐盟是針對我們產品課徵的這個CBAN針對我們的產品那我國的碳費是針對企業組織做課徵所以未來在和歐盟的制度接軌上會不會有什麼潛在的問題"},{"start":4635.185,"end":4640.893,"text":"那還是說這個部分也要等到歐盟公佈我國的這個碳費的折抵陳述之後才有辦法因應"},{"start":4641.682,"end":4667.266,"text":"第一個委員你擔心的例如說中部很多的扣件包括螺絲螺帽等等那個的確因為很多歐洲的進口車都是用台灣的所以其實他們的確是我們要關切輔導的那這個部分我未來派因為他們的細節還沒有出來那我們也希望能夠跟他們早日協商然後早一點幫助台灣的產業所以這個是我們絕對會跟經濟部共同來合作做這個事情"},{"start":4667.386,"end":4695.395,"text":"那我就想請問一下那這樣子兩個的時程上會不會導致這些企業會不會面臨到一些就是有許多轉型上的問題然後以及時程上還沒辦法因應或甚至到時候出來的時候到底要怎麼幫助他們在去出口到歐洲的時候還有這個競爭力報委員其實這個是2026才正式實施現在都在試申報2027才要繳錢所以我們還有大概有兩年的因應時間但是兩年說真的也非常的緊迫所以我們會加緊的來做"},{"start":4697.042,"end":4718.44,"text":"好那依照現在我們公告的碳費的收費辦法的第3條也就是所謂的範疇一加上範疇二這個超過2.5萬噸的就是徵收碳費嘛部長那製程與設施我覺得是提升改善啊當然一方面需要企業自己的努力另外一方面政府應該有足夠的資源去協助他們轉型對不對"},{"start":4719.801,"end":4733.899,"text":"但是現在講到範疇二能源的部分我覺得這就對企業是非常的不公平原因是我國的能源結構我們的碳排氣數過高現在你們決定要把天然氣拉到50%火力可能還有20%、30%這個幾乎就是"},{"start":4736.983,"end":4762.568,"text":"未來在能源轉型要增加天然氣還排除核能這個選項會導致所有企業在未來的我們能源政策不變的情況之下他在範疇二的計算會越來越增加那基本上就會變成是我企業該改的也改了我自己努力了也努力了但是我們的這個能源政策不變還是增加了他很多的成本和降低了他競爭力部長你覺得這樣合理嗎以及身為環境部你覺得應該怎麼做"},{"start":4764.329,"end":4781.668,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是說燃煤改燃氣它大幅降低供屋它的排碳量也減少了1⅓所以它的排碳量我們現在是0.495那預期呢大概到2030年希望我們是希望台電可以降到0.3、0.4左右甚至要更低那不想跟其他國家有核能的國家比呢"},{"start":4782.408,"end":4802.621,"text":"當然啦有些國家的核能他是有經過很穩定穩健的溝通跟處理核廢料安全都沒有問題才可以這樣做那我們也希望如果委員你們的想法其實如果按照這個程序當然這個是一個親近能源我們也都尊重但是其實這個還是需要大家的溝通跟共識因為核廢料所以基本上現在就是"},{"start":4803.101,"end":4825.877,"text":"就是在這個部分還是沒有共識還是無解嗎以現在執政黨來講我是環境部長我還沒有接到任何的這個指示要做任何的調整但是如果從淨零的角度所以部長我這部分就是要提醒你從淨零的角度這的確是會有問題對不對就是比起其他有在核能的務實的配比之下我們這樣子的確也會未來走下去也是會有問題"},{"start":4826.557,"end":4838.234,"text":"不見得是一個問題這是一個選擇的問題因為任何的能源推動都有它的困難點例如說太陽能或是風力發電每一個能源轉型都很困難所以這個就必須要找到一個適合台灣的路"},{"start":4838.854,"end":4862.266,"text":"但這個還是沒有回答問題好沒關係我大概知道你的立場你也不方便說太多沒關係部長那請教現在依碳費收費的這個五六條我們的排放量的調整係數何時會跟經濟佈定出來也就是我們這個高洩漏的這個係數來我們請我們部長我們現在排放量係數就是0.2那調整未來要調整我們兩年會調整一次"},{"start":4866.871,"end":4892.942,"text":"現在第一期就是0.2當然是0.2、0.4、0.6那個嘛對不對對對對對所以你們現在但是我要講的是意思就是說你們現在規定企業要在明年6月30前提交這個自主減量計畫那通過環境部合訂之後再申請這個高碳洩漏風險事業就是說才能適用什麼方案每噸是50嘛50元或是方案B每噸100元嘛可是你們現在的這個碳排係數"},{"start":4894.423,"end":4913.265,"text":"你們要在6月30以前請這些企業交交這自主減量計畫會不會有點太強人所難?明年6月30喔?對阿明年阿明年6月30當然是明年6月30阿但是你要想他們現在很多還是搞不清楚到底應該怎麼做然後細節是什麼那再加上你們要壓縮到你們同仁也要審查的時間這樣子的時間會不會不足夠"},{"start":4915.487,"end":4930.343,"text":"包委其實我們的上市規公司還有我們觀察這些企業他的ESG報告寫的都很詳細而且都非常有雄心所以我相信他們寫的都不是都不是票率啦但是都是真實在做所以這個問題應該是不大"},{"start":4932.245,"end":4949.478,"text":"那當然有些企業他不是上市過公司他可能沒有寫業績報告相對的壓力就會比較多那我們會給他特別的輔導所以我們環境部有一個專線如果企業有問題我們手把手教甚至我們現在都在辦巡迴的這種說明會教你怎麼寫這個事情這個是我們跟經濟部一定會合力來做"},{"start":4950.086,"end":4965.459,"text":"OK,那另外你們現在這個溫管基金的估算收入是60億吧,對不對?呃,到後年會可能...對,那你們現在...但是你們政策目標也是希望說要求企業達成最嚴格的減量目標那應該是想辦法讓企業有辦法採行這個A方案,是不是?"},{"start":4965.979,"end":4986.601,"text":"A或B對A或B但你們現在是用計算是B嘛但是移到我們偵測目標我們當然希望說他們都可以達到用A方案的這個標準對不對那這個部分就是我覺得也是比較奇怪的邏輯啦當然你用B方案可能是你覺得這樣比較合理但大部分可能是以B方案為主體然後去計算這個溫管收入喔"},{"start":4987.242,"end":5013.711,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請這個我們講解一下說那我們是不是我們怎麼樣要投入多少資源可以想辦法讓他們達到這個A方案因為A方案其實他是國際上最嚴格的一個減量的標準啦行業別其實要減到42%所以對於很多的這個徵收對象來講這個用A方案真的挑戰非常非常的多"},{"start":5013.871,"end":5014.371,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":5031.224,"end":5060.166,"text":"我們會想辦法跟他一起去討論所以這個同樣是同樣的問題就是說我們到底應該怎麼具體的方案怎麼去指導我們民間企業的轉型因為現在我們在民間還是聽到非常多的企業覺得說很多東西好像不是很明確那比起像不管是歐盟他們收到這些國家挹注的資金去幫助他們轉型我們是遠遠不足的部分這部分我是希望說部長你們要好好再回去跨部會的去整合好另外就是"},{"start":5060.851,"end":5082.612,"text":"我們COP28這個城市氣候峰會也指出國家減碳目標是要納入地方政府參與所以也有學者或是地方政府說應該政府的比例應該是希望比照空汙基金的這個6比4那我想請教部長我們碳費的支用辦法和這個獎補助我們地方的政府的比例何時會公告"},{"start":5083.58,"end":5105.415,"text":"這個大概是我們溫本基金大概明年應該明年會開會但是我也跟委員報告因為其實我們在跟企業溝通的時候他們也跟我們說這個碳費我們他們要他們交可以但是不能隨便去蓋公園隨便做一些很基本上地方建設的事他們是有一些要求的所以基本上其實這個東西都還在溝通當中我們一定會廣納大家的意見"},{"start":5105.555,"end":5129.779,"text":"我是覺得這當然也是一個合理的地方你給地方但是重點是比例你要他去投資不管是這個淨零轉型的部分你也得讓地方有一些就是要有這樣的經費去做因為這是中央地方要一起聯心的那主要我在講的就是比例的問題當然你那些細節和辦法我覺得你們可以深深去思考畢竟溫暖基金我們這個碳費收來就是希望做到淨零轉型的用途"},{"start":5131.04,"end":5142.333,"text":"但是我想要講的事情就是我舉例好了就直接用我台中來講我們中火是全世界非常大的火力發電廠前幾大的那也是空污排名非常前19名吧19大但是"},{"start":5143.26,"end":5163.263,"text":"你們現在收的這些碳費其實像有幾台電你最後是轉嫁到這個終端消費者身上可是你在地方上我們受到這個環境的影響這碳排的影響都是地方政府所以這部分我覺得是不是應該要給予地方更多的補助然後也想辦法要求他們在這個部分可以做更多的投資"},{"start":5164.464,"end":5190.981,"text":"甚至是投資國人、健康等等的這都是一個用途所以這部分我是不是可以請部長從寬的去思考一下應該要給地方更多尤其是這種碳排的這個設施中央碳排設施在那個地方很嚴重的地方好委員中央地方是一定要攜手合作的啦那其實我們也算了一下剛剛這個15億是錯的啦其實大概是大概1億左右對但是這個問題這個新聞的確是這樣但我剛剛有講到其實它是轉嫁到這個"},{"start":5192.242,"end":5214.597,"text":"他所有的這個碳費他會透過你發電到那個用戶身上嘛可能會轉嫁到他身上嘛對不對可是你只有一億多在地方可能他本身那個電廠要付的碳牌的部分可是他中間有很多他製造出來的電製造出來的碳牌都已經都已經都已經在終端啦可是真正承受這個碳牌的污染的是在地方啊你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":5216.938,"end":5217.838,"text":"主席好,我們一樣請彭部長"},{"start":5243.977,"end":5268.662,"text":"邱委員好 部長好首先先謝謝環境部跟經濟部到最後有聽盡各界的聲音比較務實地制定了碳費一般費率及優惠費率但是我這邊覺得開增碳費還是對我們的產業造成了一個非常重大的變數所以各國都非常的小心"},{"start":5270.382,"end":5298.317,"text":"本席剛剛也仔細的昨天也看了我們環境部的這個提供的這個報告目前全世界只有75個國家實施制定這個定價的制度那整個比例來講只佔我們全球的24%不到四分之一那其中採徵收碳費的只有39個國家大部分的國家都還在觀望"},{"start":5299.386,"end":5315.994,"text":"那本席在想會不會我們人家一講我們很努力的往前衝結果衝到前面一回頭我們竟然沒有別的國家跟著我們走你懂我意思嗎部長我只希望說我們在做事情的時候一定要當然"},{"start":5317.729,"end":5343.231,"text":"檢探是必要的但是我們也要顧及我們產業的一個生存的一個基本的一個權益不要說我們自己國家在搞我們目的是在減少這個碳排不要搞成好像是在講到我們在收碳費這部分不是為了錢是為了減碳這個最終的目的請部長這邊一定要"},{"start":5346.434,"end":5356.46,"text":"抓緊一定要暫穩這個利基點不要為了收費而收費啦應該這樣講才對那我看到韓國這個實質收費每公噸只有5.7但我國一般的費率高達300"},{"start":5362.1,"end":5375.725,"text":"優惠方案B也要到100當然優惠方案A也是50元兩年是調整一次的那未來當然我看到是上看上千元那重點是這些優惠條件我們業者到底有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":5376.69,"end":5393.772,"text":"報告委員,其實你委員剛才說的都是重點,但是我也必須說,台灣大概是亞洲第6個有碳定價的國家,所以我們其實是慢了,我們的確也會觀察說,會不會不公平的現象,例如說有些像越南、印尼有,越南、東南亞有些國家,"},{"start":5394.893,"end":5416.067,"text":"其實我們台灣的碳費的量,如果碳定價的話還要看化石燃料稅,其實我們台灣各項的化石燃料稅遠比日本跟韓國都來的低。韓國委員看到這個5.7是對的,但是韓國是進行總量管制的碳交易,他的一噸的碳在市面上超過排蛋的話,大概是18塊美金,500多塊台幣。"},{"start":5418.348,"end":5418.508,"text":"臺灣現在的這個"},{"start":5436.505,"end":5461.557,"text":"處境比較尷尬在很多國際的一些組織裡面我們都是被排除的都是被排除的他們是享有零關稅的一個待遇但是我們台灣你看我們從兩岸的APEC今年對台取消了146項的這個產品的優惠關稅那其實對我們的產業來講是壓力非常大的另外3年的電費連漲42%"},{"start":5464.564,"end":5484.682,"text":"對我傳統的產業已經形成非常不利的一個環境那如果再加上這個開增碳費恐怕會壓垮尤其我們的基本的傳統產業像我們石化水泥產業的最後一根稻草所以我再想到一個我剛才也看到您報告裡面有提到就是我們高碳洩漏的業者"},{"start":5486.223,"end":5511.138,"text":"當然我也收到陳情就是說希望在第一期對這些業者能夠百分之百的免費合配那本席認為這些國內國外因素都應該列入碳費的一個制定的一個參考我也看到環境部也是在說明年中應該也要比較歐盟正面表列公告高碳洩漏的這個行業別那請問部長你同不同意將"},{"start":5516.892,"end":5535.746,"text":"那我想我們在那個徵收的辦法裡面有提到說如果是高碳洩漏的產業他的徵收排放量其實是可以達到兩折那他的概念就很像其他國家的免費配額"},{"start":5536.627,"end":5551.538,"text":"那我在跟委員報告是說比如說以歐盟來講他的製造業是有免費配額但是他的發電業是百分之百要到市場上去買這個排放量的那因為我們的制度是這個發電就是範疇一跟範疇二全部都是要繳碳費所以這個這樣子稍微換算下來我們的這個排放量調整讓他範疇一加範疇二的"},{"start":5566.471,"end":5580.042,"text":"對,因為我看到歐盟他們都把這些都列入還有我們的日韓他好像也是把這些都已經做了一個非常一個規範已經非常完整那我希望我們在制定標準的時候能夠參考他們的一個標準好不好"},{"start":5580.282,"end":5581.102,"text":"有些業者其實在2005年就已經跟經濟部有合作"},{"start":5607.808,"end":5622.202,"text":"然後投入大量經費推動自願減量的一個工作的計畫那麼到後面這個減碳的成本越來越大但現在基準年我們卻定在是2018到2022年我們現在是這樣定讓業者很難達到這個優惠條件造成這個不公平因為這些人是早期響應政府推動減碳的這些業者"},{"start":5633.112,"end":5634.713,"text":"跟委員報告就是在2005年之後有一些業者跟經濟部還有當時環保署有合作做這個自願減量"},{"start":5656.806,"end":5676.754,"text":"那當時他們這個做比技術標杆要好的減量成效我們有發他一個類似減量憑證那現在這個減量憑證其實我們收費辦法裡面是可以允許他來使用某一個比例來抵他的這個證收對啦我希望你標準還沒出來嘛對不對到時候我希望你們能夠把這些考量進去"},{"start":5678.335,"end":5706.253,"text":"剛剛有講到我們說我們台灣要達到2050年淨零碳排的一個目標那最有效的減碳方法您覺得是從哪裡開始最有效的減碳方法是節能啦還是節能啦節省這個各種冰水主機各方面電力的改善那個是最大宗所以我們現在跟經濟部在合作做深度節能的工作剛剛我們次長有提到就是說歐盟他們電力的供應者他們是要繳碳費的對不對我們台灣是不用"},{"start":5707.864,"end":5712.926,"text":"臺電要嗎?臺電要嗎?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也要繳?臺電也"},{"start":5736.195,"end":5756.513,"text":"公己民生的那個就可以不用?基本上那個是他自己動的那那個其實佔他所有的營收比例我們有算過臺電大概加起來大概只要繳個5因為臺電的減碳績效很好他大概是大概5億左右對因為我們知道啦就是說其實電力供應我們臺灣大概有24家24廠那在500大這個碳排"},{"start":5760.296,"end":5783.912,"text":"量中佔了45%以上所以這個比例是非常高的為了要有效的能夠這個減碳我覺得我們這部分也要應該好好的來斟酌一下這樣才對其他的這個業者才比較公平當然如果是涉及到民生的我當然也贊成因為他是配合政府一些政策當然他有些尤其台電他有一些是可以有彈性的"},{"start":5784.432,"end":5794.7,"text":"其他業者如果不是在針對這個部分的時候,我覺得我們必須要公平對待,這樣可以嗎?好,可以。謝謝。謝謝邱政軍委員發言。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我請部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":5814.578,"end":5814.94,"text":"所有人好"},{"start":5818.23,"end":5841.725,"text":"我今天問你三個問題很清楚第一個問題就是你根據這個氣候變遷因應法第32條就成立這個基金嘛 對不對那這個基金明年後年開始收你的預估這個基金到最後差不多會有多少規模60億後年後年5月會收到60億那最後也是60億"},{"start":5845.134,"end":5847.258,"text":"大概是60億,如果大家都很認真檢探的話。"},{"start":5856.443,"end":5880.852,"text":"就是如果說大家都不減碳的話那當然就會到300億、300、400億左右不會到1000億啦那這個基金的管理是你成立一個委員會來管理就是環境部會成立一個溫室氣體管理基金那這個也會納入各個部會一起來參與所以有包括人民團體的捐贈啊什麼都變成這個基金的規模嗎"},{"start":5883.16,"end":5905.744,"text":"我看你1、2、3、4、5、6條還有其他收入等等好那這個基金就是有多久要來立法院報告一次這個就是我們每年的這個預算審議的時候就會把預算的規模提出來今天有臨時提案好那第二個問題就是碳費碳費是剛剛我有聽你講台電所發出來的電賣給"},{"start":5911.095,"end":5913.917,"text":"臺電一年的收入差不多7000出頭億它的支出是8000多億所以它每年虧損1000億"},{"start":5938.337,"end":5949.306,"text":"那這樣的話他台電這樣搞出來的七八千億的那個東西他一年的碳是差不多多少是幾千萬噸還是幾"},{"start":5951.074,"end":5968.153,"text":"臺電大概總個排電量大概是1億噸左右大概1億噸左右1億噸對我們國家大概是2億6啦但是他是讓我們大家用啊所以他自己用自己排放他自己也會排放嘛"},{"start":5969.414,"end":5982.683,"text":"這個產生一個問題我們像歐盟他Codex就是華典委員會他我們醫療在用的食品衛生的什麼萊克多巴胺的是有一個華典委員會那現在歐盟"},{"start":5984.164,"end":6013.559,"text":"到底是什麼委員會在界定這個還有這個委員會的認定比如說今天中午一個便當來這個便當產生多少碳或者是說這個便當用紙盒或者是用環環境部的用鋼盒那這樣它的碳是多少是誰在說了算誰在定考試規則誰在定那個標準我接過新加坡來的他們也在定那到底這是什麼情形"},{"start":6014.159,"end":6033.173,"text":"報告委員這個是每個國家他的制度不一樣啦吼所以像有些像歐洲有些國家他就直接電力業就直接就課了他是上游就課了的確有些國家是這個樣子那有些國家跟我們一樣每個國家都不一樣對我說這個產生多少碳這個產生多少碳那是誰在頂說他多少那是誰在頂啊"},{"start":6036.215,"end":6039.34,"text":"好像...我都說完整會議都我不會說的咧應該是說...我們請正式來"},{"start":6045.723,"end":6073.493,"text":"跟委員報告就是說什麼樣的活動會產生多少排放或是做一個東西出來有的變成是組織的盤查有的是產品的盤查那這個都是首先有這個國際上的標準有ISO的標準我看現在也沒什麼標準啊現在新加坡來的來跟我談的他自己定一套標準啊歐盟要一套標準啊我們台灣是認誰認誰的是彭部長你自己認還是怎樣"},{"start":6076.614,"end":6095.939,"text":"國際的標準比較有彈性所以每一個國家它內化成比如說我們說產品碳足跡我們還會用本國的係數去做一個調整所以如果是自願性的產品碳足跡我們會用這個方式處理那如果說比如說像歐盟CBAN他要求產品要申報產品碳含量那歐盟就會定規這個才跟委員報告就有點像CODEX這個味道是不是"},{"start":6099.48,"end":6102.722,"text":"那第二個問題就是你說要補助各縣市那各縣市是用什麼標準補助各縣市啊各縣市是要幹什麼事"},{"start":6123.263,"end":6141.702,"text":"報告委員其實因為大家對於這個碳費過去都有一個想像空間會有個幾千億那的確有些縣市首長就跟我說他要因為他也是排蛋大屋要跟我要很多但是我必須說其實這個國際上對於這種減碳一定要有一個真的去減碳有一個量出來"},{"start":6142.482,"end":6163.539,"text":"因為高屏那邊工廠都在高屏,然後公司設在台北市,然後在台北市繳稅,然後在高屏那邊放雞腮,沒有生雞腮,所以現在地方政府都嘩嘩叫,那台北市市政府稅收的那麼多的稅,250萬人口他可以收到兩三千億,"},{"start":6165.866,"end":6179.303,"text":"這個以後要補助各縣市你是用省人頭還是省工廠還是省汙染的程度這個都要講清楚到時候會飛所以這個部長你要注意一下"},{"start":6180.004,"end":6186.046,"text":"最後一個問題要問你醫療的你上次有跟邱太仁有參加一個會你說醫療部門佔的排放比例是0.9然後如果加上一些供應鏈來的胃藥耗材等等會達到4.4"},{"start":6208.018,"end":6231.523,"text":"那這個醫療院所有在做減碳啊比如說像高雄大同醫院啊他們說再怎麼減怎麼減也能減到18%而已這到底是怎麼一回事因為我們醫療院所都是那些都是要低溫像核磁共振什麼什麼那些轉流照射那個都是要18、19度的冷氣吹24小時365天的這要減碳你也沒辦法減"},{"start":6234.344,"end":6253.096,"text":"我那空調是佔50%的所有電費阿傑你跟我講的是說要讓空調啦什麼的耗電能夠減低嘛所以叫醫療院所安心的跟著彭副董去做阿不然就剩你了阿醫療院所幹不下去要怎麼處理"},{"start":6254.916,"end":6275.727,"text":"醫療院所呢,我也特別這個問題有去問過,有些收碳稅稅的國家,醫療院所都沒有收啦,所以各位委員可以放心但是未來會不會有馬上收,因為這個是救人的,所以我們不會主動來處理這一塊那目前我們現在是幫醫療院所,如果是8000千瓦以上的公私立醫院,我們現在跟經濟部合組一個深度節能團隊"},{"start":6276.847,"end":6279.929,"text":"所以你是找民間的一些資源來做一個團隊來輔導所有大中小型醫院如何來檢探嗎對沒錯"},{"start":6301.86,"end":6322.204,"text":"好,那這樣的話,我們要如何轉述給所有的醫療院所,就是,要這樣說,叫他們大家稍安勿躁,因為那個環境部會做最好妥適的安排,然後會幫我們組團隊來輔導,然後看看能不能再減碳,再減。"},{"start":6325.285,"end":6344.282,"text":"最後一個問題還是問,像這個醫療耗材、胃藥耗材那個產生的碳的,到底一個東西出來,譬如一瓶點滴出來,耗了多少碳,碳足跡等等,這個要界定清楚啦。我看你都這樣阿札公公的、青菜公公的,有的說3噸就3噸,你做2噸掉2噸,這樣是不良化的。"},{"start":6349.145,"end":6376.641,"text":"有兩種,一個是自願性減碳,那個是大家自己去提,漢族記我們這邊是碳費是比較嚴格的,一定要真的去盤查認證,碳費出來才可以,所以那個都有一定的標準這個是方面部長要用心好,謝謝好,我在這邊做以下宣告,在王振旭委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘接下來請盧憲伊委員發言"},{"start":6387.555,"end":6388.075,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長"},{"start":6395.553,"end":6418.379,"text":"我們先談這個碳費的時候我們先看一下世界的趨勢因為我在大運的時候有講過很奇怪就是我們的World Bank它在5月29號就已經預告我們的碳費的價值是在大概是9塊美金那我們是10月7號才宣布的也就是說這個300塊是很早就決定了嗎?"},{"start":6418.979,"end":6426.164,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這個期刊是5月29號的期刊他就已經知道我們是9塊美金了"},{"start":6427.086,"end":6448.68,"text":"這是人家建議的啦 那我們還是委員 委員給我們那個神醫委員會的委員共同做的決定那我們現在看最高的目前是烏拉圭167塊 我們是在9塊 那大陸的話是在北京的話是在15塊那我們訂這個300塊的那個 是你之前有先去做盤查嗎 還是做調查 還是做怎麼樣的一個結論 會有300塊的這樣一個定價"},{"start":6451.842,"end":6469.919,"text":"這是我們的碳費審議委員會然後跟各方面的討論出來的一個因為他們有考慮到這個我們的對於這個CPI GDP的衝擊然後我們他共同當然我必須說這個最後不見得每個人都2030年你是要到1200到1600的水準建議建議那你要怎麼樣逐漸上升呢"},{"start":6470.519,"end":6485.777,"text":"每兩年會調整一次那50塊跟100塊也會逐年調整?會 這個是要審議委員會他們來共同討論還要看實際上執行的狀況我剛剛聽你說你去了日本知道他們要發行債券就是20兆的那你認為他20兆是怎麼訂來的?"},{"start":6487.08,"end":6504.873,"text":"20兆是看實際的需求例如說他們是三個部會一起來合作那我們台灣是不是也要做這樣子的一個規劃不然你說這個61太少對其實真的減碳是真的是你聽到了這樣的一個說法我們台灣是不是也要跟著來想一下我們的模式"},{"start":6505.353,"end":6520.008,"text":"對 我們的確在520之後就在動起來但是我必須跟委員說這是一撇很大的預算那到時候也希望委員的多支持我比較想知道說森林的台灣的森林有210萬公頃那這個有沒有算作我們的綠色存底"},{"start":6521.208,"end":6545.045,"text":"如果有一些既定的已經開發的已經繼承的在那個地方是沒有辦法算但是過去如果是有一些空地或是沒有辦法好好維繫的好的話所以我們的210萬公頃的森林不能當作是綠色存底某一部分是但是這個到底量或多少我還要再調查因為目前是有農業部、內政部和海委會三個部會在對他們是負責自然碳"},{"start":6545.265,"end":6563.157,"text":"如果說這個214萬公頃是大家的資產那是不是國家要去付這筆錢在你的基金裡面應該這裡面要有一個部分來做這個事情啦全世界都是一樣特別是這種所謂的公正轉型例如說很多的這個原住民的朋友這個都必須考慮的所以我的意思就是要"},{"start":6563.897,"end":6583.766,"text":"拉到這一點就是說是不是有可能我們的淨化補償會從這個所謂的我們的綠色存底來做一個結合或者是說去考量一個方法能不能把這個淨化補償也當作是一個綠色存底然後當作是基金的一個規模然後以後如果再運用金額的上面是不是也可以援助我們人民會這邊的經費籌措"},{"start":6586.287,"end":6612.003,"text":"如果未來是跟減碳有實質上相關的那我相信我們溫室棲林管理基金都會願意來考慮做這個事啦因為我們原住民畢竟是都住在森林每天看到的都是樹木可是它的價值到底在哪裡現在又被國家還是認定在院長所說的4萬塊那我們還是想說去想辦法讓它這個森林有價值所以才會想到這個綠色的所謂的存底的部分"},{"start":6612.543,"end":6624.72,"text":"那我知道台電跟中油要負擔大概15億到19億那我們的最大的產業也就是這個那我想要知道是產業界還是認為300塊太高你要怎麼來拯救我們這些傳統的產業界"},{"start":6627.199,"end":6640.609,"text":"報告委員,其實這裡面如果產業願意去做減碳的話,它的費率是很低的,而且還有很多的折扣我剛剛看了就是說你是減掉所謂的K值,然後再乘以,那K值是2.5萬噸嗎?所以你的第16頁Page16是扣掉那個2.5萬噸算出來的嗎?對對對"},{"start":6648.919,"end":6675.632,"text":"那你說一年的收入大概是60億對不對?對對對那我剛有去算了一下如果說60億的話你這個就剛剛蘇委員講的你有去盤點說這個產業是在哪裡以後要怎麼分配嗎?目前你說基金的使用嗎?目前還沒有我們現在等著屋管基金因為新的一屆準備也會要來成立然後我們應該是明年的時候會來討論這個問題因為過年才有錢那專款專用的意思是用在?"},{"start":6676.305,"end":6677.606,"text":"我想知道的是50塊這個費率是如何來達到?"},{"start":6700.168,"end":6700.568,"text":"所以這個難易度"},{"start":6724.907,"end":6744.112,"text":"有差別,但是委員可以看一下我們很多前20大排碳大戶的ESG報告其實他們寫的都很清楚,他們的企圖心是很旺盛的所以有些企業是沒有問題的但是我也坦承有些企業傳統產業他本身經營就比較辛苦了所以這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來討論說如何幫忙這個企業但是這個部分還是屬於經濟部要幫忙的層次"},{"start":6750.054,"end":6751.695,"text":"大家比較緊張的就是說我到底要不要繳碳費"},{"start":6762.677,"end":6765.718,"text":"每個國家不一樣,歐洲的負稅很高,收入也很高,例如瑞典是137美元"},{"start":6782.023,"end":6799.628,"text":"那他們是涵蓋了大概六成左右就看了期刊來說每一個人願意負擔也就是說他認為這個森林很有價值他願意保存這樣一個大森林他願意負擔的價值是4塊美金也就是說我們如果2300萬人願意付4塊錢美金的話這就是我們的一個底嘛"},{"start":6800.288,"end":6820.83,"text":"所以如果我們的環境教育做得夠好認為每一個人都要付出這樣的一個價值來承擔我們這個所謂的減碳的一個活動或者是這個我們遠大的夢想那是不是你也要開始要著手去計劃這個4塊錢的美金要怎麼來讓大家來願意付出"},{"start":6822.017,"end":6837.902,"text":"包括委員因為我收這個這次281家我們就快要半條命了要跟每個人收我相信你2050年要達到零排放你一定要有這個適當的一個規劃產業的規劃說我們國人是不是以後也要有這樣的一個付出"},{"start":6838.522,"end":6863.825,"text":"目前全世界還沒有一個針對每個人要課碳稅或碳費的這個算是一個夢想嗎?是不是也要開始有這樣的一個想法?委員報委員那個真的很辛苦啊這個要到每個人跟每個人收個4塊美金這個是很辛苦發4塊美金比較快樂比較容易當然是啊你要作為一個零排放的國家一定要做出相當的努力啊所以這個方向也要考慮好不好?我研究一下好不好?謝謝部長"},{"start":6866.052,"end":6888.927,"text":"好,謝謝盧憲伊委員的發言接下來請接下來請劉建國委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長劉委員,早"},{"start":6896.178,"end":6910.397,"text":"部長早部長你可以大概跟委員會做個報告114年度的環境部的總預算案含基金就全部大約是多少然後113年又是多少112年又是多少3年就好"},{"start":6912.119,"end":6938.218,"text":"明年的預算177億韓基金然後去年的話應該是170就今年的話173左右我們少了一點多億少了一點多億那112呢112就是112應該也是173億左右是這樣嗎因為我只看這兩年我印象這兩年處理這兩年我知道那我問三年嘛不然可以提供嗎"},{"start":6940.526,"end":6942.406,"text":"為什麼要把環保署變成環境部?理由何在?"},{"start":6971.69,"end":6982.259,"text":"理由何在新部長來有沒有什麼新的政策有沒有什麼新鮮的項目是有別於在環保署的那個年代"},{"start":6985.216,"end":7012.869,"text":"部長請簡單回答報委員其實這個部分我上任之後我也觀察到但是其實委員知道我們的各種的政府的工建計畫、科技預算其實大概都要提早半年前都要送進去所以我其實上任之後我真的也很努力想要增加一些預算但是行政院的額度也告訴我說額度已經滿了增加是非常有限所以那加上說我們這兩年其實有些計畫剛好銜接所以我們有一些數是預算增加的有些是反而是減少的"},{"start":7013.189,"end":7029.577,"text":"因為那個計畫剛好銜接期沒有搭得上所以其實我也希望所以目前跟委員報告我的確在我們內部啟動一個機制我們希望每個部會都要提計畫因為要提計畫要做事才能夠申請到錢所以目前我們希望在115年預算可以增加"},{"start":7032.855,"end":7056.61,"text":"應該這麼說啦,我知道部長一定會去爭取嘛,對不對?但是怎麼會沒有爭取到,反而不正完檢?這個絕對是有問題的啦。相關的數據增檢,這個很正常的事情,因為執行的效益嘛,績效等等的一些問題,你們去說相關的一些調整。明天開始要,開始來執行這個碳費的徵收。"},{"start":7057.671,"end":7079.899,"text":"我想我想在某一個程度上然後你又貴為新部長應該有些新興的項目阿這些新興項目是不是一定要增加預算那倒也未必啦但是屬變成部之後我想我想基本上那個整個格局啦跟你要去掌理的事項一定是一定是增加的嘛對不對所以他是他從預算面要去看到你這個部"},{"start":7080.879,"end":7108.56,"text":"的未來的整個你的執行面也好你的執行目標也好還有你相關要做的更積極的一些事項應該他都是要增加的啦所以我是簡單從預算面要來跟部長討論我們現在還沒有進到實質的預算審查那我剛剛就講了如果說我們連這個都不清楚還是各個單位都把這個事情當成不是一件事情那審預算的時候我覺得大家就會很難過了啦這第一點"},{"start":7110.922,"end":7134.028,"text":"第二點,上週台灣碳匯的價格終於定案,一般匯率是每噸300元,同時提供優惠利率,有AB兩種方案,分別為每噸50還有30。那台電、中油、中鋼,他們都已經有出估他們自己可能要繳得碳匯,那如果依照300元來計算,台電可能要繳15、中油19、中鋼則是2到4億,這是國營事業這個碳排大戶的出估金額。"},{"start":7140.03,"end":7145.154,"text":"臺電、中油都表示再可負擔的範圍同時這些碳排大戶都還會再去爭取優惠方案所以最終需要繳交的價格應該都會再壓低"},{"start":7158.144,"end":7178.349,"text":"但是在環境部提供的碳費的簡報當中最後有放上很多報導來證明這個碳費不會影響民生經濟的波動部長也是這樣主張嗎?對 沒錯但是在昨天有沒有報去委區看這個東西這個碳費恐令翁部長葉子優綠色通本"},{"start":7179.129,"end":7195.075,"text":"他是引用這個臺中經發局這個局長的說法他認為多項項目這個價格多項價格的因素會造成企業營運成本的提高然後由於這是重點由於我國的碳費價格比國際匯率高"},{"start":7196.315,"end":7217.771,"text":"加上基本工資、電費同步調升那企業營運成本勢必要調高嘛那最後一句話喔最後一句話中小企業面臨成本漲也會順勢調整價格最後帶動萬物皆漲你還沒回答之前我先肯定不啦還不漲在昨天禮拜天大家就放棄休假的日子馬上"},{"start":7219.713,"end":7238.699,"text":"就用相關的數據來做這個打臉這個我是要肯定但是這個簡單政策怎麼會搞成中央要再滅這種火地方一直要放這種火那怎麼辦?包委員其實第一個啦大家對於這個碳費新的制度都不了解所以我上禮拜才在日本其實某一個建商大佬"},{"start":7239.219,"end":7262.891,"text":"也喊出了這個一樣的話所以我也要求說我一定要澄清要平衡言論所以我們強力做下去那我也發現說其實大家對碳費國人是不了解的所以我要求我們的同仁要做出這一本而且要公開讓全民知道所以今天這本第一次是在院會讓委員先可以看到我們會讓所有的民眾都可以來了解這個那其實我必須說很多人是對這個是真的不了解的"},{"start":7263.231,"end":7264.533,"text":"不是大佬勒,他是地方政府勒"},{"start":7283.09,"end":7302.712,"text":"地方政府他其實下午有澄清了他說他有一個新的說法出來了OK好但是不知道你看你們的溝通你如果總預算案環境部總預算案不減少1.7億其實你那1.7億就可以做很多宣傳的事情溝通的事情你看你們整體的溝通案"},{"start":7303.803,"end":7317.697,"text":"到目前為止,你說溝通就困難了那不溝通會有更困難嗎?對不對?這是部長講的嘛NGO7場、產業溝通26場、專家學院4場、大大大總共47場,獨缺地方政府那地方政府要不要辦?"},{"start":7318.85,"end":7347.734,"text":"我們會努力想要來辦理那也希望說未來如果說地方上因為委員比我們更了解地方能夠找到一些有這個需求的也希望能夠能夠積極來結合辦理所以在這邊是不是要跟部長特別要求嘛地方政府22個縣市嘛一個月內溝通完成好不好可以嗎一個月內嘛因為這個月會期我們都在立法院啦所以再給我們多幾個月可以嗎我們坐在立法院的時間不多啦"},{"start":7348.474,"end":7361.973,"text":"都幫你們算過了第一個沒有預算可是省嘛第二個你們預算增加不增加你們也都沒有在緊張嘛然後待會也不一定會每次的委員會都排你們嘛一個半月啦22場一個半月OK吧"},{"start":7366.938,"end":7371.46,"text":"第二件事情 匯率訂立後第一場要跟產業界再做溝通的我這邊具體要求 是不是可以從雲林開始"},{"start":7382.623,"end":7405.355,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長再來 你看齁 部長你也講了吼 碳水如鞭越快上路越好到過去齁 過去務務部也在這對淵娟吼 她也是淵娟如鞭了她希望越快上路越好 但是初期可能大家都會朝這個方向這個目的目標去做 她減量 她也會一直持續做"},{"start":7406.135,"end":7424.664,"text":"但他如果把它當作是成本化之後他會成本化之後他覺得他可以負擔就像剛才中油還有台電他們講的那些話那未來就不是在減減碳的這個方向走反而是他可負擔的範圍裡面去繳費那環境部變成什麼收費大副"},{"start":7425.66,"end":7446.732,"text":"還是你們讓預算減少未來的碳費可以收所以你們對種預算案你覺得減少是不為過的事情我講話絕對有邏輯啦如果是這個樣子的話那最後碳費成本的話會導致什麼問題發生部長你應該比我更清楚因為我在你的相關報告裡面完全沒有看到你如何嚇阻讓碳費"},{"start":7447.893,"end":7473.706,"text":"不是從要去做積極減碳的方向走如果他把它變成商業,企業把它也變成成本化之後你們有什麼樣的因應的作為我沒有看到這個報告好,委員其實這個裡面碳費的精神就是他自主減碳他就有很大的這個優惠利率那個就是委員說的這個內容那我也產生這個我們的對外的論述溝通齁還真的有待加強啦因為我們環境部沒那個公關那個預算的經費啦"},{"start":7475.367,"end":7475.567,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7489.821,"end":7513.713,"text":"所謂這樣說嘛對不對還有一點啦這個編辭你一定要弄出來我想這個距離計畫可能部長你要我距離要求部長要提供給委員會做參考嘛企業一定要朝向真正去做減碳嘛對不對而不是把它可接受可負擔換來把它成本化那這樣我們的目標就不對了啦那另外一點還有一個蠻嚴重的問題啦"},{"start":7515.114,"end":7542.392,"text":"碳費審議會議有建議啦兩年一期的碳費調整方案預計2031年預計2031年每噸是要達到1200塊喔那等於是明年開始嘛2526就一期嘛對不對2728就是第二期嘛2930就是第三期嘛三期從現在明年開始300元到第三期就是百分之四百成長了1200塊"},{"start":7545.374,"end":7568.285,"text":"是確定這樣做嗎?報告委員其實這個制度如果按照這樣設計的話的確是大家壓力會很大但是我也跟大眾承諾過其實全世界好的制度都是總量管制的碳交易比較有效率那由政府這樣收其實不見得效率好所以我們也期待未來在4年內能夠延期總量管制的排放交易這個會比較好"},{"start":7569.486,"end":7580.043,"text":"所以如果按照這個1200塊收的確委員你說的問題就會跑出來這個我們也考慮進去了所以我們4年內會慢慢的雙軌並行最後走到總量管制的排放交易"},{"start":7581.49,"end":7607.55,"text":"為什麼相關的企業也會有相對應的作為嗎?對不對?阿他如果有充分的時間,他也把他計算在他的成本裡面,阿就不像剛剛你處理的那樣現在就是說,如果一千二的話,我相信所有企業是沒辦法接受,現在的企業沒辦法接受的所以其實我們還是希望,因為總量管制的排放交易是可以跟國際接軌的然後我們有一些本地的產業可以給他一些免費的配額,所以其實這個部分會效率或管理會比較好"},{"start":7607.79,"end":7611.094,"text":"總量管制的排放交易不是收這個碳費碳稅像新加坡也是跟我們收目前預計也是到2030年要收到1500"},{"start":7625.996,"end":7650.324,"text":"但是部長你這麼講就代表說我們還有另外新的制度新的制度希望同步來實施那你的新的制度什麼時候出來我們新的制度等於是說目前我們希望明年我們明年6月就會組一個團到德國去來整個產業跟我們政府部門還有我們媒體界一起來學習總量管制的排放交易ETS啦我們要有一個ETS的制度出來"},{"start":7652.685,"end":7666.192,"text":"我覺得這是有些問題,因為時間的關係,主席再給我一分鐘就好,那個精華署署長是不是有來?部長你先聽一下,我請教楊署長,楊署長對嗎?是那個麥寮海蛋廠是什麼狀況?他2018年通過環評,並要啟動新的計畫,預估2022年8月要完成了對不對?"},{"start":7673.191,"end":7693.669,"text":"那2022年5月,台碩六清就要播消息,因疫情影響這個氮化廠的興建,要延後一年嘛。然後到了2023年,又延到今年的10月31號,現在台碩又要提出展延18個月嘛。也就是說要到2026年4月30。大盤建部是不同意喔。那你們,你們經發署勒?"},{"start":7696.102,"end":7714.832,"text":"跟委員報告,這是在我們產業延期管理局在處理,當初進度因為疫情影響慢了,所以提出這樣的一個展延的要求這個是業者他不得已的一個措施,那我們會來看他實際提出的情況,因為當初他是環評承諾執行進度已經到96.5了"},{"start":7719.954,"end":7735.75,"text":"他為了剩下這3點多趴他要再展延18個月你們經濟部沒有意見我知道齁這是產業局在管沒有錯啦齁但是當時在整個組織下過在調整調整的過程裡面我在那個第在四網法治委員會我特別要求這件事情"},{"start":7736.789,"end":7753.861,"text":"那你們要怎麼處理?委員我回去請產業人去管理局做一個了解再提供一份書面報告給你我麻煩你回去跟部長打個招呼啦跟他回報這件事情不能這樣啦不能這樣處理啦然後我也覺得經濟部有督導的缺失啦是不是也提出相關報告給我們做參考?"},{"start":7754.827,"end":7755.908,"text":"接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":7783.61,"end":7786.873,"text":"謝謝主席有請彭部長還有經濟部產業發展署楊署長王委員早"},{"start":7795.15,"end":7821.042,"text":"部長早讓地球可以深呼吸所有地球上的生物可以深呼吸台灣的民眾可以放心地深呼吸我想這是今天要跟部長討論的事情那近年減碳的政策真的非常重要所以我們要走對的路做對的事那部長有多少信心"},{"start":7822.602,"end":7823.822,"text":"關於碳費的部分先請教一下有關於當這個碳費拍板以後"},{"start":7845.508,"end":7865.253,"text":"當然各界反應會有不一樣的一些想法那請問部長在這個拍板之前有跟經濟部這邊有做多少的一些互相的討論那為什麼碳會拍板定案以後經濟部會表達遺憾這部分可不可以請兩位簡單做個說明"},{"start":7867.713,"end":7889.41,"text":"報告委員這個費率的制定是碳費審議委員會來定義但是我們在形成一個決策的時候的確有進行跨部會的協商包含跟我院長也都有報告過這個事情不過最後其實還是審議委員會來決定那其實我也很尊重這個經濟部因為經濟部是從產業的角度發聲所以其實我們也會跟著他們積極來協調討論這個事情"},{"start":7891.511,"end":7892.992,"text":"請問經濟部,你們如何替產業發聲?遺憾跟未來發生中間有沒有什麼連結?"},{"start":7915.069,"end":7930.038,"text":"是 謝謝經濟部也是碳費審議委員會裡面的一個成員那我們是針對目前各行各業所面對的一個產業環境認為大家應該要可以負擔得起然後可以用穩健的方式來做處理"},{"start":7930.538,"end":7930.718,"text":"主席"},{"start":7956.544,"end":7961.345,"text":"了解,所以希望往後就不要遺憾,而是如何共同努力往前走。好,那謝謝署長"},{"start":7983.208,"end":8009.958,"text":"那再過來是有關的請教 署長可以請回座 謝謝碳費專款的使用剛剛很多委員都有請教了部長那針對於未來碳費預計會有60億元左右的這個碳費的收取那請問一下這個部長有列這麼多的層面需要去處理的部分那在執行過程當中目前有沒有計畫要怎麼分配"},{"start":8010.918,"end":8029.236,"text":"剛剛部長也提到很多教育面還有相關的調試面等等那部長也很用心的在部裡面做了這一個這麼好的資料可以讓民眾做參考所以如何分配這個碳費的收入目前部長有沒有初步的規劃"},{"start":8030.697,"end":8048.208,"text":"報告委員這個其實全球我個人是希望說這個60億放大10倍啦600億就是把民眾的錢這個大家的企業錢有更好的效益來做使用但是呢這個如何按照氣候變遷因應法的這個原則去定義那這個是要成立一個委員會"},{"start":8049.108,"end":8064.565,"text":"目前委員會我所知道是說我會來擔任這個主席然後來訂這個規則請一些各方面的委員來參與還有各個部會所以目前細節怎麼用我們還沒有訂那預計明年才會開始草擬這些事情"},{"start":8065.259,"end":8087.287,"text":"好,我們希望這個效益可以極大化對那再過來有關於成立基金的部分部長目前也規劃有3個基金可以來協助整體的這些處理的要求那包括綠色成長基金預計預計或者是說會預注100億元那可是我們看到好像要爭取"},{"start":8088.649,"end":8104.427,"text":"那到底這兩者之間有多少的落差那再過來就是綠色金融創新的部分什麼時候有好的平台的產生讓這個保險業者可以把這樣的資金搭上綠色產業那這兩部分也麻煩部長幫忙說明"},{"start":8105.308,"end":8122.023,"text":"委員第一個是國發基金我們是已經獲得國發會主委口頭上的承諾他覺得這是非常好的而且他也承諾我100億用完之後還可以再想辦法然後第一個是這個現在我們正在寫申請書然後因為我們國發基金已經有好幾個部會"},{"start":8122.944,"end":8126.887,"text":"致於綠色金融創新是跟金管會那金管會其實他也很熱心的協助我們找保險公司能夠來談這個資金的取得這個都不是政府的原來預算的錢"},{"start":8153.027,"end":8174.812,"text":"目前的確已經還不做得成效但是也遇到一些問題就是說裡面的細節上例如說做S口做深入節能有一定的風險如何去擔保我們還是遇到一些細節上的問題我們還在解決當中但是這個應該未來一兩個月內會有結果那第三個因為前面兩個如果完成之後我們更希望的是鼓勵我們國內的創投業者"},{"start":8176.132,"end":8204.098,"text":"能夠來投資進來因為國際上這種氣候科技這種進領的量非常的大一年全球大概有一千億美金的這個數值所以我們也希望我們國內的創投業者也可以來關心國內的這樣的相關的業者可以來做這個事情那其實呢也跟委員報告我們剛剛統計的一個資料我們國內在一些這個求職平臺這種所謂綠色工作的人才一個月平均大概有兩萬個新的工作的這個機會我們也就希望"},{"start":8205.319,"end":8214.905,"text":"從這個綠色這個就是賴清德賴總統的綠色成長的戰略裡面我們是不是可以創造一些新的動能來幫助台灣這個是現在我們環境部面對這樣的一個新的態度"},{"start":8215.667,"end":8238.736,"text":"我們也希望讓這些需求在人力上的供應或者是未來的發展可以更全面再過來就是要請教部長有關於醫療機構減碳的部分非常謝謝也非常肯定部長在最後面幫我們的醫療機構在這個費用的部分做了一些正向的一種允諾剛剛蘇委員也談到這個事情"},{"start":8242.457,"end":8266.494,"text":"請教一下我們也知道其實醫療部門雖然所佔的這個使用的量不是很大 氣體排放佔了0.9可是如果把醫療供應鏈加進去事實上真的是不少 有到4.4%那未來在這部分的政策方向如何能夠具體協助醫院來做節能的這個方案 不知道目前的規劃如何"},{"start":8267.074,"end":8283.198,"text":"目前跟委員報告就是說我們現在經濟部跟環境部正在研議一個就是深度節能就是X口的下一代那目前來看的話我們經濟部的團隊會負責公立醫院、部立醫院那整個私立醫院是由環境部這邊來負責所以我們會針對全台灣的這個醫院的"},{"start":8287.179,"end":8287.199,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8306.209,"end":8329.183,"text":"好,因為我們也知道醫學中心那個能源佔用真的是電力的部分非常的高的爬速,將近有八成那在電力耗用裡面空調又佔了55%其他照明、插座等等那在要更新啦,或者是要讓這些設備可以更為發揮它的效能真的是也是一筆重大的費用所以我們很期待"},{"start":8330.223,"end":8330.343,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝部長"},{"start":8357.294,"end":8359.663,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員,現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8990.896,"end":8995.379,"text":"好,現在繼續開會接下來請圖全級委員發言好,謝謝主席,請我們彭部長請彭部長圖委員,早"},{"start":9013.624,"end":9034.337,"text":"部長我請問一下上個禮拜我們有確定未來5年碳費費率的標準已經確定了嗎?是不是?沒有沒有,就是指現在起徵點的費率那如果2030年以後的費率他是一個建議並不是說一定要這樣所以我們現在起徵就是以每噸300元對那針對這個起徵一般的費率每噸300元部長針對這部分你滿意嗎?"},{"start":9040.48,"end":9041.741,"text":"那你覺得這實施以後對減碳上有什麼具體的幫助嗎?"},{"start":9057.853,"end":9073.428,"text":"如果說大家很願意減碳,我們其實希望大家能夠走到優惠費率如果每一家企業,我們也評估過這些企業應該都可以走到優惠費率如果都走到優惠費率的話,可以幫我們國家減碳14%就是比我們過去NDC減碳的成效還要來得好"},{"start":9074.192,"end":9077.153,"text":"報告委員其實我們算的整體而言其實大概對CPI的衝擊是很低"},{"start":9093.621,"end":9117.428,"text":"而且其實大多數的企業是可以接受的但是我也必須跟委員談成仍然有一些可能最近經營比較困難的企業他又是排攤大戶他也積極面臨到這個轉型的困難所以某一些企業的確我們有觀察到這個所謂公正轉型的問題所以其實我們內部已經在討論是不是有一些更好的機制能夠幫助某些真的非常辛苦的產業"},{"start":9118.428,"end":9138.763,"text":"所以我們現在看起來感覺我們環境部一直在減碳的部分部長這邊也推動很多的各項政策來減碳可是真的我覺得我國的能源政策跟我們環境部真的是相衝突只能透過調整、自主減碳一些被動的方式來去做"},{"start":9139.483,"end":9147.941,"text":"那對減碳有直接影響的調整能源政策我覺得環境部在這邊好像一點角色都沒有完全好像都是受制於經濟部"},{"start":9149.506,"end":9171.393,"text":"報告委員其實不會的因為我們行政院有一個永續會永續會下面有一個氣候變遷與淨零小組那我本身呢也是裡面的這個這個副召集人所以其實我也在裡面每個月大概每個禮拜大概有兩次的會議所以我們都積極參與各種檢探的工作我們也有一些發言權有一些建議權所以很多的部位的檢探我們"},{"start":9172.333,"end":9175.394,"text":"所以部長的說法針對這次的碳費草案上路所以你說經濟部跟環境部還有企業界各界你們都在費率上有進行充分的討論是不是?"},{"start":9196.118,"end":9197.239,"text":"因為剛剛我聽部長這樣講照理來講好像你們針對這部分都討論過那應該有達成一些共識吧?"},{"start":9212.769,"end":9238.403,"text":"其實基本上齁,這個一個價錢能夠訂出來齁,要讓大家完全滿意齁,這個是不可能的事情啦,我也有充滿的認知。那委員在那邊寫的說不停,我覺得是某些企業應該都很理解我們在做什麼事情,但是畢竟要收費齁,這個要課稅齁,收費課稅在任何一個國家,都是會被不習慣的,被討厭的,所以我必須說我們還是做了一個最痛苦的決定啦。"},{"start":9238.683,"end":9252.799,"text":"所以因為我們去看到經濟部對外公開的發言我覺得經濟部的說法其實是洗臉環境部因為他一直說這個碳費這個上路之後絕對會嚴重影響台灣產業國際競爭力那針對這部分"},{"start":9259.633,"end":9285.195,"text":"那個部長你有沒有覺得好像在恐嚇環境部好像意思說如果這個實施的話對我國經濟好像會有重大的傷害不會 報告委員其實保護環境保護地球本來就是這個環境部的工作所以我的力道會當然會大一點那經濟部門是保護產業這兩個的確會有一點點的相通途但是我們認為在這個某些環節我必須堅持我的理念但是我也尊重他們這幫產業爭取的這個理念所以"},{"start":9287.837,"end":9315.695,"text":"這個的確會有一點不一樣但是我不會有這種被洗臉的感覺啦好其實針對我們看到我國針對這個碳定價制度喔在其實在亞洲國家我們已經算慢的據我們了解喔你看日本、韓國、中國、新加坡、印尼他們最早的從2008年就已經開始訂定那我們到現在才開始實施那經濟部還用競爭力下降啊"},{"start":9316.275,"end":9342.014,"text":"然後針對這部分我覺得好像有點在恐嚇民眾恐嚇環境部好像這個實施對我們整體經濟不利其實我倒覺得是不是顯示經濟部應該是在非核家園這個部分我覺得沒有完整的配套措施而且在碳費這個問題經濟部好像也沒有針對環境部要實施好像他也沒有什麼配套"},{"start":9342.934,"end":9366.619,"text":"包委員其實我們不會再對企業的輔導是一體的來做啦吼那碳定價呢其實本身就是一個非常困難的過程我們已經討論了3、4年了才完成這個事情所以這是一件蠻難的事因為這是一個新的制度那我覺得委員提到的這個其實經濟部跟我們一直在一體的兩面一直在推動啦那委員談到的核能的問題那又是另外一個能源署的這個問題啦"},{"start":9367.939,"end":9388.307,"text":"我覺得我們尤其我們現在執政應該要有一個同樣的目標同樣的方向現在讓我感覺就是經濟部的政策經濟部做他的然後環境部的目標做環境部的兩個根本感覺就是背道而馳所以我想了解在國際氣候變遷對策委員會上針對碳費這個問題部長到底有沒有拿出來充分討論"},{"start":9394.609,"end":9411.257,"text":"碳費是在我們這個行政團隊執行裡面重要的一個問題那我們第一次委員會議裡面我有報告說今年一定會上路那至於說我們這幾個月努力的成果我應該在月底的這個氣候變遷對策委員會我會跟委員再做一次報告"},{"start":9411.897,"end":9439.275,"text":"因為這個事實上是一個里程碑啦雖然說大家可能會對費率上希望有他自己想要的數字但是這個是台灣的開始我們必須還是給予我們的這個制度我們國人我們國家是一個肯定的所以我們現在擔心的就是說我們覺得說這個委員會應該要有達到調和點賴的功能去協調這些問題可是我覺得這次碳費費率出來我們看到的經濟部、企業界"},{"start":9440.215,"end":9456.793,"text":"甚至連環團當然他們的說法不一樣企業界覺得訂這個太高環團覺得太低那都來抨擊這個碳費費率那我們部長是執行秘書我們郭部長也是委員那環團裡面也有委員代表"},{"start":9457.293,"end":9485.847,"text":"那不知道這個部分到底委員會有沒有達到這充分協調的功能報告委員其實我們跟郭部長跟例如說一些的部會首長我們常常就針對這個議題會去討論但是我也必須說其實每個部會有他的這個保護的對象他既定的立場那事實上我們都尊重其實我們是討論的過程當中是對國家有利的我們都會彼此互相的這個協調啦所以委員其實倒衝突倒是沒有那麼的大所以委員放心"},{"start":9486.147,"end":9502.596,"text":"所以我覺得部長你還是要站在我們針對我們全民的健康還有我們環境的問題一定要為我們民眾來把關那針對這部分我們碳排10大污染源請問部長你知道這個10大污染源最多的是哪些產業嗎"},{"start":9503.856,"end":9505.298,"text":"所以我們看這個從2023統計前兩年的資料來看這10大碳排其實"},{"start":9521.896,"end":9542.885,"text":"幾乎都集中在我們的發電廠那除了台塑中鋼跟中農鋼鐵是民營的以外你看中火跟麥寮發電廠這全世界都排名一個28名一個55名所以是不是我國的能源比燃煤天然氣為主這個高碳排政策"},{"start":9544.085,"end":9562.471,"text":"假設這些我們看得出來它是10大污染源最多的那這個碳費上路之後發電廠是最多最大的污染源那台電一樣火力全開那每年資額這高額的碳費給環境部不就是台電把這些錢就轉到環境部去"},{"start":9563.231,"end":9584.872,"text":"是否變成這樣子?報告委員不一樣吼,這個碳排跟污染是兩件不一樣的事情只要一個工廠他這種所謂的雖然是燒煤他用超超零件或各種的管道他還是其實可以很乾淨的所以這個是碳排的係數那基本上因為我們國家幾十年來的這種產業的政策累積到現在為止現在的確也面臨到轉型的時候"},{"start":9584.892,"end":9602.405,"text":"所以部長我的意思說看起來會繳這個高額碳費看起來這個發電廠應該是最多那發電廠基本上這些都是屬於台電所以我說台電繳這些碳費這些錢也都是我們納稅人的錢那你還是全民買單啊"},{"start":9603.366,"end":9619.147,"text":"沒有報告委員這個其實算法上像昨天臺中市政府他們稍微有點搞錯了那經發局局長其實最主要就是說像臺電發電自己發電自己用的那個就要課碳費給大家用的那個就不用所以其實這個算法是很清楚的"},{"start":9620.101,"end":9645.085,"text":"希望這部分針對這個高的碳費我們很擔心台電繳的錢還是全民買單那這個碳費的部分我有看到希望說是以專款專用我這邊建議啦那針對我們有蓋發電廠的地方還有高碳排的縣市像現在我們桃園大潭電廠是我們全國最大的天然氣發電廠那個台中的"},{"start":9648.479,"end":9662.731,"text":"中火是我國最大的火力發電廠針對這些部分他們有被蓋發電廠而且是高碳排的縣市我們碳費應該針對這個部分補助地方做一些減碳的設施"},{"start":9664.313,"end":9677.671,"text":"這個我們會來考量就是說這個畢竟還是要從減碳的源頭去減要有效率這是最重要的所以這個部分例如說如何去幫助這些排碳大戶能夠快速的減碳當然我必須說這個還有別的用途這個要經過溫室氣體的審議委員會能夠來決定所以我個人的建議我們會考慮"},{"start":9681.736,"end":9710.662,"text":"對阿我建議喔專款專用啦他居然發電廠最多表示他的基本上的污染也最多那居然有收這個碳費很多都是從他們那邊去繳交的因為污染也在他們那邊我們應該從這個碳費去補助地方去多做一些減碳的設施給他們報告委員其實這個部分已經有空污費有大量的補助了好這部分希望部長針對民眾的健康的部分幫我們多參考一下好謝謝"},{"start":9713.476,"end":9717.677,"text":"十月是環境部一個很特別的月份也是許多年輕人會關心的你知道叫什麼月嗎十月"},{"start":9746.019,"end":9770.478,"text":"這是很多年輕人會關心的議題所以全台灣每年的手機銷售量是500到600萬台但是我們的回收率卻只有12%您在這個月的許許多多的新聞稿都有宣導這件事情因為手機裡面有很多貴重金屬對於資源的永續非常的重要那我在許多新聞稿都有找到說"},{"start":9771.198,"end":9777.749,"text":"我們的手機回收率只有12%那您知道跟世界各國比起來我們的"},{"start":9779.32,"end":9805.437,"text":"數據是?我所掌握的資料是像歐美日他們大概是15%我們有一段落差對那為什麼我們做不到呢?從實際上來看的話如何手機賣出去如何回收其實還是要從源頭來做起所以其實這段時間我們跟手機的廠商一個一個去談因為其實有些的產業每個產業不一樣像有些大牌的大家常用的其實他們都想要自己的回收體系算他自己的"},{"start":9805.737,"end":9808.158,"text":"你有定一個目標是2026年要提升3%提升到大概是日韓歐美的低標會不會覺得這個定的有點太低了"},{"start":9834.773,"end":9860.783,"text":"因為我一直跟貴部門要一些RAW DATA來看我想知道說從一開始有手機回收你們來統計這個比率至今可是網站也沒有然後這個RAW DATA也沒有所以其實不知道你們這個12%是怎麼計算出來的我們這個手機回收月是由我們各業者提供另外就是我們在經濟隊回收的這個數量來加起來的"},{"start":9862.887,"end":9871.064,"text":"我有稍微查了一下,其實回收的比例這麼低,大概因為管道很麻煩,誘因不足,還有其實民眾很擔心自己的個資"},{"start":9872.574,"end":9899.264,"text":"因此我看了一下國外的做法在這邊也提供給部長因為你們是AI內閣你們更應該要創新有創意所以歐美的經驗是他們常常會在手機的訊息通知這個民眾回來回收還有一些回收的管道另外他們的廠商是會開立這個手機刪除的證明等等讓他們安心還有一些足夠的誘因下一張給您看一下這個"},{"start":9902.188,"end":9918.337,"text":"手機回收月等等活動內容其實是很豐富的可是呢你知道你們缺了最大的市佔率叫做蘋果嗎?哈囉對這個你知道嗎?我知道可是以前有蘋果你知道嗎?知道"},{"start":9919.97,"end":9938.725,"text":"原因在哪裡?這個是很多人很好奇的地方。這個就是因為在一個做法上面,可能他們覺得這樣的方式比較想要自己創一套。所以這個才是為什麼我們要把手機法式化的關係,就是你不能有些人他覺得認同就來做,那不認同就不做,這樣不行。"},{"start":9940.146,"end":9961.018,"text":"因為他現在的市佔率大概是24.3%而且很多直營門市呢他持續做救機換新機的方案他會發現民間二手機的回收量蘋果回收佔了56.3%排行是第一名所以你如果沒有把Apple納進來的話其實你要達到你希望跟國際接軌的數據是很難的"},{"start":9963.808,"end":9990.727,"text":"對,方委員其實我剛好前幾個禮拜幫家人去換手機那家人手機摔壞了那我去我以前去蘋果他就會把我回收走了那我們去一般的這個通訊行他就說回收率一支300塊那就以消費者的角度來說的話所以這個就是造成說一般的企業他主動像你主席仔細看這個蘋果的這個業績報告他的回收率是他重要的指標對,所以你真的應該要說服他可以跟你配合嗎?"},{"start":9991.327,"end":10019.207,"text":"但是因為手機業者他是最主動的但是有些的業者沒有那麼的主動這個是您之前環境部以前叫做環保署的時候110年的活動是有跟所有的10大品牌還有5大電信合作這個發布在之前110年的新聞稿中包括有Apple可是現在升格到環境部照理說應該有更大規模更高層級的合作案這個是今天希望可以"},{"start":10020.007,"end":10041.578,"text":"請你們可以注意的然後未來可以多加改善我們未來會把它提升但是委員提到說能不能有更好的目標我會再跟我們團隊再仔細再討論有沒有更精進的作為這是近期有看到在前瞻計畫第5期裡面看到部長有提出一個淨零排碳氣候法制策略精進計畫只規劃做8個月但是花了1.7億"},{"start":10046.741,"end":10056.277,"text":"其中主要的工作就是包括建立碳足跡係數資料庫這件事,您知道嗎?知道,這個是我們要呼應國際的要求,有一個冷卻行動的計畫"},{"start":10057.841,"end":10058.842,"text":"那請問這兩個的計畫內容是不是有重疊的部分"},{"start":10082.302,"end":10109.929,"text":"報告委員這兩個不一樣一個是這個是範疇三啦範疇三是很難去計算的那這個是這個是冷卻行動雖然名稱上面是一樣的但是針對這個碳足跡還有係數資料庫這個項目是不是您想要再擴充1111更多還是有什麼其他的我們請我們署長跟委員報告因為目前在網站上公佈的這個碳足跡的係數都是民間他們自願性要做碳足跡的這個"},{"start":10110.669,"end":10111.309,"text":"所以這1.7是專門針對範疇3還是之前那個?"},{"start":10141.069,"end":10164.668,"text":"1.7有一部分是針對範疇3然後另外呢看這個這是您的網站裡面有14個單位啊有跟你們合作做這些探索系的揭露那當然比如說高鐵或是華航這些有關股為主的單位都覺得是理所當然很能理解可是剛有許多委員提到的台鐵台電也都是公家機關但為什麼你們"},{"start":10165.549,"end":10170.374,"text":"到目前只有合作了14個而沒有一些指標可以再往上增加呢?"},{"start":10171.338,"end":10172.399,"text":"這個早上有許多委員已經關心了所有這個"},{"start":10198.924,"end":10199.385,"text":"提出具體的改善措施"},{"start":10222.304,"end":10237.893,"text":"這個我們跟這個八家醫院都有開會啦衛福部都有開會啦齁那事實上我們也希望說讓他們做源頭管制是最重要的對可是衛福部說跟跟這個醫院不相關您覺得呢"},{"start":10238.444,"end":10242.225,"text":"那正在環境部的立場你有沒有一些想法對於我們周遭醫院周遭這些住戶有沒有產生一些健康的影響做出評估或是調查"},{"start":10269.004,"end":10287.651,"text":"這個是我們先對水的部分,他們放流水,然後他對環境的這個影響,雖然說他們現在沒有立即的危害,但是委員提到的所以附近的這個住戶水體的,我們是針對水體啦,沒有對醫院附近的這個住戶的衝擊。對,但是我們調查這個其實主要就是害怕未來這些抗藥性嗎?"},{"start":10289.15,"end":10315.642,"text":"沒關係這邊有一個具體的建議這邊有提供部長一個想法行政院近期有核定一個國家級防疫一體抗生素的抗藥性管理行動計畫等等會在114年正式啟動總共編列了19億元那其中呢 疾管署的副署長羅一鈞就有講到說醫療機構的放流水管理並沒有納入在這樣子的計畫內左院長特別要求環境部應該主動監控"},{"start":10317.483,"end":10317.503,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":10337.609,"end":10364.73,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們例行都有一個這個調查的一個計畫只是分年度在做但當然資源越多我們的這個範圍跟頻度會加強那這一部分的至於預算的部分我們都有在相關的計畫裡面有所以你們已經夠了嗎因為你們兩年才找了8家而且這8家還都有問題不是我我們是在109到112基本上就已經用了34年的時間那做了"},{"start":10365.27,"end":10365.29,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":10385.169,"end":10410.685,"text":"有,我現在已經找到你們有預告草案,你們想要修正這個水汙染的防治措施還有管理辦法,但是施行日期要等到115年1月1號才開始,這個部長您知道嗎?知道,知道對,所以其實有一年的時間是...讓他們改善啦,讓他們改善好,感覺這有點太久啦,所以在這邊希望是可以請你們可以積極主動爭取,因為行政院那個預算的"},{"start":10411.425,"end":10411.785,"text":"請柯之恩委員發言"},{"start":10443.331,"end":10444.011,"text":"第一回合很顯然是環境部領先"},{"start":10459.016,"end":10464.318,"text":"我們比較好奇的地方就是你看我們目前為止大概做到300雖然我必須要強調經濟部還有環團都不太滿意但是呢你特別規劃到5年之後可能要從300拉到3000但我的重點是你目前碳費的徵收的對象竟涵蓋全國的50%的排放量"},{"start":10488.766,"end":10504.758,"text":"所以你這樣有辦法達到你明顯減碳的成效嗎?部長報委員其實如果說大家願意用優惠費率不要繳那麼多錢的話五十一百對那那個是有效的14%我們是鼓勵而且我們也其實看了這些企業的業績報告他們大概都可以符合優惠費率"},{"start":10504.838,"end":10529.08,"text":"但是我也看到報告我還是要特別強調你看以我們剛剛很多委員都問到這個問題到底你2026年你拿到60億你到底要怎麼樣來做分配可是我看看你的回應都是說我們會有個專門的委員會我們有一些事情的細則我們在討論對我們來說我們同樣問同樣的問題同樣關切的問題可是你的回應都好像要拖到明年才有辦法解決包括大家所"},{"start":10529.52,"end":10558.165,"text":"告知的這個這個綠色的這個環境部的小金庫你當然不同意這是一個綠色國發經濟100億還有另外的3個所謂的基金但是我還是要強調你這個部分裡面你永遠告訴我是明年才有包括大家非常關切的這個這個一些的方式那我為什麼要特別提出來你看看到底你有沒有辦法保障這個高污染的地方可以得到適度的一個分配像以高雄為例它就是三高啊高排碳"},{"start":10559.125,"end":10578.332,"text":"高污染高碳費那我也沒辦法保證你看我們的排放量是佔全國的20%喔光是我們所有的企業要繳交110億元喔那你到底有多少比例你可以回饋到我們地方部長我要求的是有多少比例你起碼要告訴我們一下否則你永遠告訴我明年明年沒有那麼多明年"},{"start":10578.712,"end":10605.406,"text":"報告委員那個碳費後年年中才可能會進帳所以我們現在提的那你現在後年但是大家要插雷彈那你告訴我多少比例可以回饋到地方這個現在我沒有辦法給委員發布這就是為什麼你們剛剛公佈裡面300說大家都想要看到細節然後你永遠告訴我們拋出一個300然後呢後面到什麼我們再看這就是為什麼你的政策沒有辦法第一時間大家認為永續非常重要你們沒有辦法第一時間可以說服大家的"},{"start":10606.727,"end":10621.851,"text":"我會讓那個部長跟這個署長有機會包括我已經特別提到了你的碳鏈殘很多人藉機來開課你的碳認證因為我們不知道我們這個上游的部分到底有沒有得到合法的認證還有碳洩漏我認為應該改名叫碳破口會比較好進口的產品沒有得不需要去繳納而且你告訴我2025年你有臺版的CPAM臺費上路這些都是目前為止我們所看到你因為碳費"},{"start":10634.974,"end":10636.155,"text":"您有辦法保證2025年我們台版的CBAN就可以有辦法上路嗎?"},{"start":10662.27,"end":10684.24,"text":"我們會先試行這種所謂進口業者要來先申報所以基本上因為CBAN事實上現在歐盟也是只有一個大概要試行申報他明年年中才會出來他的細節所以你就告訴我明年2025上半年你就可以所以我覺得這個東西每一個政策講出來我們都要追問到底有沒有辦法做到包括你的配套接下來你可以看一下我們接下來看一下下面你看我們碳費大家已經講得非常多了"},{"start":10687.742,"end":10695.988,"text":"光是我們的電力跟燃氣的這個供應業大概是真的佔57.1那當然也會影響到我們的電子產業你看臺電跟中油光是繳費就要繳15跟19難怪每個人都會怕這個經濟這個代表可能署長都要特別提到很多人怕他會轉交到消費者臺電可以比照這個水費的發法裡面叫做代收中油可以把他這個碳費放在他的計算工資裡面更換到下面一個"},{"start":10714.002,"end":10720.245,"text":"所以你看看,然後最主要是你讓我們的傳統產業,這經濟部應該很有話講嘛,你們當初所辯論的部分就是來到這個地方嘛,因為我們這個石化跟鋼鐵的傳統產業,你沒有受到貿易的保護,而且你根本進口的地方你不受碳費的這樣的一個負擔,所以你對於我們國內的這個產業來說是非常不公平的,而且我們台灣不僅碳費是高於日、韓。"},{"start":10735.812,"end":10745.802,"text":"當然這個都有留待空間最重要是我們購買零碳電力的來源是比日本、韓國還要少的這就是我們目前為止所以經濟部難道不怕這些石化鋼鐵業紛紛的走向國外嗎這是傳統產業"},{"start":10749.315,"end":10762.045,"text":"報告委員其實你說的數據15億19億其實如果他按照他的企業的自主減量計劃他不用繳那麼的多的大概是你的三分之一到四分之一左右我要特別提出來你的自主自主的你去看到數據我們興達電廠自主的這樣的結果之後他的碳排放量反而比過去增加了4.98你可以看得出來"},{"start":10769.471,"end":10787.197,"text":"所以到底有沒有達到這個效果看一下數據我最後要特別提到因為時間的關係你看對經濟跟物價有沒有辦法造成一些的衝突最重要的是你看一下這個數據裡面GDP減損的這個層面都是我們預先也是透過經濟部算出來的最重要的是為什麼經濟部會有一些的想法就是"},{"start":10787.597,"end":10787.957,"text":"我們有一本這個細節在裡面全部都有"},{"start":10814.958,"end":10814.978,"text":"委員８"},{"start":10842.165,"end":10871.343,"text":"報告委員西貝明年年中才會開始生效然後我們是預先的要探深報比照歐盟的敬禮我沒有落後我是照那個方式在進行的對我剛剛只問你說剛剛我所涵蓋這個部分包括我說你對於我們地方高污染地方你的怎麼分配的比例等等之類的我們起碼在知道你提出300這個數字之完之後我們可以進一步的了解而不是等到明年所以我們大家覺得說以高雄來說我們所有的產業都炒在蛋啊因為我們不知道你最後的速報"},{"start":10871.843,"end":10873.463,"text":"謝謝科智恩委員的發言接下來請李坤城委員發言"},{"start":10908.496,"end":10910.48,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請彭部長請彭部長議員好部長好,辛苦了這一個預計2026年要開增碳費"},{"start":10921.363,"end":10921.383,"text":"對 沒錯"},{"start":10946.33,"end":10947.752,"text":"根據臺灣永續能源研究基金會的資料顯示臺灣的醫療照護碳"},{"start":10956.055,"end":10961.696,"text":"主機佔全國比例高於全球平均4.6%全世界平均4.4%台灣醫院用電量在非生產事業性試驗排名第一佔比16.9%比車站、軌道等運輸合計13.54%還要高"},{"start":10979.061,"end":10999.118,"text":"總統才會相當的關心醫療院所檢探的一些事情,也曾經打電話給部長講這件事情。從打電話到現在,一個多月了,想請教一下部長,關於醫療院所檢探這方面的事情,有做了哪一些改變?"},{"start":10999.258,"end":11003.563,"text":"臺灣第一次環境部跟衛福部合辦一個活動,然後總統看到新聞之後,其實總統跟院長都有打電話給我,說這個活動不錯"},{"start":11017.099,"end":11044.056,"text":"但是後面的這個給醫院的資金在哪裡所以其實也謝謝總統跟院長關心這個事情讓我們有一個動力所以其實第一個是國發基金所以他們我們就協調了這個國發基金是不是有一個100億能夠來做這種幫助這種能減碳的工作的投資那第二個呢就是我們找了金管會找這個保險基金能夠來合作因為這個ESCO其實要蠻多錢的過去我們政府都是用補助的形式從馬政府時代就是用補助可是這個補助的量"},{"start":11044.616,"end":11047.197,"text":"目前的成果是應該在近期應該就會來公布目前的確是有成果"},{"start":11072.483,"end":11090.899,"text":"那所以總統跟院長關心之後就去想辦法說那個錢從哪裡來要怎麼樣去協助我們醫院來做這個減碳是不是對沒錯沒錯這就是你剛回答大概就是我想問你的三個問題就是第一個環境部會採取哪一些措施跟衛福部合作協助醫院減碳那我們有投入多少資源跟經費呢"},{"start":11091.859,"end":11106.233,"text":"還是都沒有?都是完全靠你剛才講的一個是國發基金100億那也還沒有確定嘛現在正在申請當中申請當中國發會有同意了嗎?口頭上同意口頭上同意那恭喜你那第二個就是說"},{"start":11107.154,"end":11127.797,"text":"這個有沒有規劃將碳費的部分收入協助醫院執行一月十幾的改革目前其實是因為衛福部的預算是我們的好幾十倍啊所以這其實這個部分哪一方面的預算是你的好幾十倍整體預算啊所以基本上這個邱部長跟我說碳費有沒有辦法給他其實我是說碳費我們現在才目前規劃才60億恐怕有點困難"},{"start":11128.658,"end":11147.869,"text":"但是他的預算這麼多也不是說都拿來做這一個減碳的或是ESG的改革嘛所以你當初這樣回答的話那邱部長當然覺得說那你這個給我們一些資源投入這個協助醫院來改善這個ESG他的用意應該是這樣子啦不是在比較說兩個部會的這個預算誰多誰寡我們現在講說是投入這個減碳的這個費用"},{"start":11153.192,"end":11170.07,"text":"到底有多少?當然環境部是負責這方面的所以說還是沒有規劃說如果預計收到的這個碳費之後要來協助這一個醫院作業時機的改革?報告委員其實如果我用保險的資金來幫忙的話其實不用花到醫院的錢這是一個比較市場化的一個做法"},{"start":11170.39,"end":11193.189,"text":"那就是第三個那有跟金管會討論過了嗎?有,討論過了我們跟主委還有他們保險公司我們都密集的在開會但是我也跟委員談成還是遇到一些小問題需要政府的擔保等等我們正在處理這個細節那金管會的態度勒?金管會是樂觀其成那他有沒有協助你找一些保險業者過來談?有那個彭主委非常的這個認真熱心幫我們處理這個事情"},{"start":11194.81,"end":11208.023,"text":"那我是希望說當然希望藉由民間的資金來做這個深度節能就是你剛才講的EXCO這部分因為民間資金投進來那其實政府也不用付這麼多的錢進去有一些是保險業他們先帶電然後節能之後這個錢我們再還回去沒錯"},{"start":11211.967,"end":11227.936,"text":"那現在我看大家也很關心那個CBAN的問題那我就直接先問了這個你有提到說這個產品在我國繳交的碳費確認已經可以支付這個CBAN的碳價了那請問一下有這個官方的書面文字嗎還是只有口頭"},{"start":11228.716,"end":11245.307,"text":"他們書面文字有包含了碳費、碳稅都可以,只要ETS都可以。這有確定嗎?確定確定,那我們不覺得這個書面不完整,我當面的問了非常高層的官員,獲得非常肯定的答案。這就確認了,因為就是你那口頭問是一部分,我是說有這個書面的確定就是說,我們徵收了這個碳費,"},{"start":11249.309,"end":11249.629,"text":"臺灣的西貝因為第一個是"},{"start":11268.348,"end":11268.488,"text":"這個就是說齁"},{"start":11290.736,"end":11314.194,"text":"有來有往啦 大家有做我們當然也要做保護台灣的產業最後一個問題請教 歐盟的碳稅徵收的對象是進口商台灣的碳費的徵收對象是國內業者那未來台灣的碳費的徵收會不會涵蓋進口的貨品主要還是所謂我們碳費徵收的對象他的對應的這種進口商進口的這個業者那就要來收所以會收就對了對對對對好OK好謝謝"},{"start":11316.195,"end":11319.377,"text":"謝謝主席,今天的發言只有5分鐘,我們請部長,所以你回應說盡量快一點好不好?"},{"start":11344.24,"end":11365.538,"text":"好,氣候變遷因應法在立法院通過了之後,環境部裡面也制定了碳費徵收的費率,碳費要從115年開始正式的開徵了。那針對氣候變遷因應法裡面涉及原住民的條文內容,部長你清楚這有哪些條文嗎?針對這些條文,環境部在政策上做了哪些因應,知道嗎?"},{"start":11366.078,"end":11371.601,"text":"為推動自然碳會,政府要跟原住民民族共同推動與管理原住民地區的自然碳會,該區域的新增碳會及相關權益應與原住民族共享。"},{"start":11392.645,"end":11411.096,"text":"政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內的自然碳匯。該區域內新增的碳匯的相關權益應該要跟原住民族共享。涉及原住民族土地的開發、利用或限制應與當地的原住民族諮商並取得同意。"},{"start":11414.958,"end":11417.519,"text":"環境部以前的相關公務人員知道嗎?"},{"start":11440.506,"end":11466.786,"text":"請我們署長回答好,署長你知道嗎?105年不清楚好,你看,你們都不清楚不清楚難怪我們的行政院長他會跟原住民的族人說進法補償是找不到裁員啊我想這就是執政團隊你們根本不知道早在10年前本席就已經在立法院針對原住民進法補償的部分討論我們就在討論碳費的議題了現在知道了吧部長"},{"start":11467.786,"end":11495.094,"text":"報告委員,那個時候該概念是碳稅啦好了,就是已經跟你講過了嘛如果經法補償的金額要提高的話必須要由開徵碳稅之印嘛那你現在碳稅裡面已經有基金了嗎?對吧?112年通過了氣候變遷因應法環境部裡面也按照第32條設立了溫室氣體管理基金然後請問一下基金施政的用途包括哪些呢?"},{"start":11496.845,"end":11501.292,"text":"呃就前委員提的這6項好123456對不對有沒有原住民的部分"},{"start":11502.796,"end":11528.622,"text":"沒有當我們的碳費定價之後在115年開始正式開尊了我們看一下原住民有為政府守護7萬公頃碳匯的原住民經法補償的私有林地同時也有原民匯11萬公頃的公有林地加起來總共18萬公頃的原住民保留地對於台灣的碳排放這個是非常好的"},{"start":11529.262,"end":11557.19,"text":"它是屬於溫室氣體管理基金施政重點的哪一項?你知道嗎?好,你不知道,所以我現在要告訴你涉及原住民族的碳會更包含了森林碳還有位於原住民傳統海域的燃炭我了解的是,碳會的來源是由農業部主責但是部長你更必須清楚了解不管是原住民的私有領地或者是我們的傳統海域"},{"start":11558.61,"end":11579.176,"text":"農業部主管的國有林還有海域還有很多目的事業主管機關要推動的政策他必須回歸到氣候變遷因應法來一起推動而不是你自己環境部啊林業署他在推動國產財我們的竹林更新還有竹產業"},{"start":11580.336,"end":11598.472,"text":"你知道這些政策嗎?你不知道?你可能也不知道森林會根據不同的樹種有不同的碳吸存能力吧?你知道竟然知道竹林是屬於短年生的同時你知道竹林它的碳吸存能力是非常強的所以在產業面也都需要國產材跟竹材"},{"start":11603.256,"end":11606.778,"text":"環境部你作為氣候變遷因應主管的機關,你在精靈碳排的政策上面,難道不應該在政策上面作為統合嗎?部長。報告委員這個是農業部在主責,他也提出放大學。我知道啦,你是主責,那你不應該和鄉聯繫這些嗎?所以,"},{"start":11623.869,"end":11648.593,"text":"契簽法第33條基金的用途根本就沒有用在禁法補償上面嘛所以我在這裡要要求你經營談判還有碳會的更像政策請環境部你要承擔起這個責任你在一個月之內要儘速邀請人民會、農業部、相關部會提出將碳會最大化的執行政策可不可以"},{"start":11649.513,"end":11670.747,"text":"好,委員這個沒有問題,我們會來協調,謝謝謝謝你,一個月之內,好嗎?也把你們開會最後的文字來告訴本席,謝謝好,謝謝高金樹梅委員的發言那我在這邊再做一個重新宣告,等一下在賴士寶委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案好,接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11691.295,"end":11699.677,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請彭部長。委員早。部長好。"},{"start":11703.613,"end":11725.069,"text":"《最後變遷因應法》第一條定的很清楚落實世代正義、環境正義及公正轉型不論是我們原住民族在台灣一直守護我們的森林所以我們一直善盡的保護台灣環境的責任"},{"start":11730.114,"end":11747.965,"text":"我們看這個氣候變遷因應法的第3條（碳匯只將二氧化碳或其他溫室氣體自排放演化大氣中持續移除或吸收或儲存之樹木、森林、土壤"},{"start":11749.553,"end":11761.761,"text":"海洋地層設施或長守所以這個部分我們不要忘了這個部分然後第11款也提到什麼叫公正轉型這裡面也特別提到"},{"start":11763.462,"end":11788.839,"text":"沿逐民主的穩定的轉型所以這個部分要請當初欽惑變遷因應法本席要提出草案當然有幾條條文是有通過但是也有沒有通過的部分是我們未來要繼續努力的地方欽惑變遷因應法第5條政府應秉持"},{"start":11792.101,"end":11804.792,"text":"減緩與調適並種植原則,確保國土資源永續利用。這裡面也特別要兼顧原住民族的權益。所以這個部分,這個我們看這個整個"},{"start":11807.31,"end":11833.003,"text":"《氣候變遷因應法》第5條也特別提到相關的這些推動自然碳匯政府應以援助民主共同推動及管理援助民主第7次自然碳匯所以這樣的一個前提之下我們看這個我們看這次的整個"},{"start":11836.124,"end":11864.321,"text":"有關碳費所以你們在估算60億的碳費收入60億這樣的一個碳費收入我剛念了這麼多原住民族的條款原住民族對整個碳費的貢獻但是這個基金"},{"start":11865.928,"end":11892.863,"text":"會用到原住民族嗎?這個後年年終才會正式的收到所以我們預計大概是明年會開始會組成這個委員會會來討論這個基金的用途這個部長基金的用途訂的很清楚當初本席有提案但是沒有被接受被碾壓表決沒有通過"},{"start":11895.092,"end":11913.628,"text":"所以這裡面完全沒有完全沒有原住民族的部分但是也不是不能做還是可以畢竟這裡面補助給地方政府地方政府要怎麼去用怎麼樣在裡面的相關的這些"},{"start":11915.791,"end":11929.837,"text":"規定裡面去致應,可以往這個方向去努力嗎?委員這個第3條就是補助中央目的事業主管機關執行溫馨體減量工作的事項那原民如果森林碳會的部分的話可以透過這3項我們來補助給原民會來處理"},{"start":11933.639,"end":11946.393,"text":"當然有這個項目,我剛剛不是講了很多嗎?我們相關的條文也都有提到我們很多原住民族在這個"},{"start":11949.571,"end":11976.434,"text":"包括相關第17條都有相關的這些所以這個部分要請環境部事實上農業部講得很清楚農業部講得很清楚研究民主所附山林當然現在我們的環境部的方向就是說怎麼樣去"},{"start":11978.079,"end":11996.78,"text":"這個去收這個錢然後這個收的錢當然各有各的論點到底這個60億到底算不算多當然這是第一次這個也經過相關的這些程序來辦理但是就整個"},{"start":11998.488,"end":12023.993,"text":"原住民族對碳費的一個貢獻是不可謀滅的所以這個部分要請環境部再訂相關的比較細的規定的時候就成如剛剛部長所講的地方政府執行的時候怎麼能夠給予考量好不好好謝謝"},{"start":12026.084,"end":12030.989,"text":"好謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請賴世寶委員發言謝謝主席各位先進有請我們環境部的彭部長以及經濟部的梁署長署長委員好兩位長官好兩位長官好"},{"start":12049.973,"end":12068.58,"text":"委員好,我先請教彭部長,你今天來講的話,你現在碳費要收,當然有些人就提出來了齁,我們現在環境部門過去都有收啊,空污費、水污費、土污費,基本上是污染的,所以CO2是不是就是污染的,是不是?"},{"start":12069.04,"end":12087.41,"text":"過去在環保署時代曾經有一度把這個變成是CO2是污染物但是它是一個溫室氣體不應該變成一個污染物它是不是污染物過去是有這樣定義啦但是其實在國際上應該不是污染物就是一個溫體溫室氣體那現在來講我們看到你現在訂的是碳費一噸300塊對不對對但是針對國內的企業可是國際來講類似歐盟其他我也有提到CBANK"},{"start":12098.216,"end":12124.814,"text":"這個是對於進口的產品來講的話要課這個這個碳費啊那我們這一部分為什麼沒有辦法同時訂出來這讓國內的企業感覺感覺是我競爭已經非常不利了現在更加不利報告委員其實這個是2026年他們才正式實施現在都是事行申報所以其實還有一點時間那他預計他的細節等於是CBAN就是碳邊境調整機制他預計是明年的年終才會把細節提出來"},{"start":12125.575,"end":12126.336,"text":"臺灣版的CBank什麼時候可以出爐?"},{"start":12141.915,"end":12166.854,"text":"出爐等於是研議完了就會很快來出爐但是我們會先用進口的商品就要等於是說例如說水泥進口的水泥就要同時申報它的碳的價值當然是這樣子啊你現在對於水泥現在來講的話水泥就已經課碳費啦是不是來講的話實話一樣啊那國外的這個水泥也進來的國外的實話也進來的為什麼不課當然會啊當然未來會朝這個方向去洗所以可不可以在這裡承諾2026如果來當補充的話"},{"start":12171.357,"end":12180.249,"text":"我們跟歐盟同時同步同步就是我開始實施我開始實施對國內的這些產業我課碳費的同時我就對進口的產品一樣課碳費可以嗎"},{"start":12186.778,"end":12208.954,"text":"我會保障國內產業的要求這個是我一定會承諾那另外一個是立法或是修正的係數其實我們要貼近歐盟所以我一直在觀察歐盟還有鄰近國家其實我們也跟日本上禮拜我也跟日本的官員在討論這個事情既然你看到鄰近國家包括日本、新加坡、歐洲的瑞典、瑞士芬蘭、挪威都是課碳稅不是碳費為什麼你跟人家不一樣"},{"start":12212.686,"end":12231.983,"text":"這個是過去他們制定的但是我是接續他所以我努力把它完整政策的延續但是碳稅跟碳費是有點不一樣稅是大水庫理論就進到財政部去費是專款專用但是整個國際的精神上碳費稅是一體的所以我們基本上是就是可以說是碳稅的一體"},{"start":12233.704,"end":12260.143,"text":"碳費錢在你手上,五百億在你手上,碳費不在你手上,本位主義當然不要啊!報告委員,新加坡的就是碳稅,他們是專款專用,一個是專款專用,一個不是專款專用。日本呢?日本是不是?日本是地球溫暖化對策稅。對嘛,它是稅嘛,進去財政部不一樣,這個來講答案就很簡單嘛,因為你環境部中亂嘛,那你這個五百億你怎麼用?"},{"start":12260.583,"end":12264.345,"text":"沒有500億60億60億那個錯的訊息錯的訊息那再一個錯的訊息啊什麼CPI會增加0.18GDP會增加0.48我有這本的書我再送給委員這裡面只有0.00幾而已"},{"start":12276.973,"end":12277.013,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":12295.393,"end":12312.284,"text":"有沒有這種你的message,現在碳費,有人講說你先行,主要3塊嘛,一個碳費一個碳稅,一個是碳排放的總量管制的交易,這3大塊,你現在說我碳費先行"},{"start":12313.547,"end":12315.849,"text":"總量管制就是碳權交易嘛"},{"start":12339.104,"end":12344.671,"text":"對,總量管制的排放交易,就ETS,符合歐洲或是...那個不一樣,那個現在他們推的是這個自主減量的,不一樣。"},{"start":12354.883,"end":12362.447,"text":"這裡面來講國內的企業都不能用也不能買不能賣委員不能這樣說他們是屬於自主減量的自主減量的但是他們未來如果走到總量管制的碳交易他們就有存在的價值跟你講這不一樣他做的就是針對外國外的這個碳權的買賣交易讓你在那裡類似在那裡這個炒股票而已"},{"start":12381.537,"end":12405.31,"text":"他們沒有炒股票,是可以買到比較公信力的你講說可以買到,我就說這個買賣,只要有買賣就有炒作了所以我要跟你強調一個東西就是後面的總量管制的交易是非常重要的沒有這一塊,其實你這總能做什麼我現在正在往那個方向走什麼時候可以有成績?4年內"},{"start":12407.543,"end":12411.004,"text":"我相信這個政策是延續的我們現在處理臨時提案總共有兩案請一併宣讀"},{"start":12437.506,"end":12458.133,"text":"第一案 要求環境部每一年因鄉立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交一份溫室氣體管理基金執行計改善計畫書面報告以維護溫室氣體管理基金使用的震盪性及執行績效提案人委員蘇清泉、廖偉祥、陳金輝第二案 要求環境部應立即協調相關機關"},{"start":12459.774,"end":12461.835,"text":"請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見?遵照辦理"},{"start":12484.173,"end":12507.287,"text":"無異議就遭案通過,那第二案呢?行政單位有沒有意見?跟委員報告,第二案就是有關這個台版C-BAN,那因為剛剛部長的說明,就是我們一定要跟這個歐盟一樣要先從申報開始,所以我們建議在這個文字上面,就是從後面緊述確定台版C-BAN方案,我們建議修改為研議"},{"start":12508.447,"end":12519.43,"text":"臺板西邊方案與國內啟動碳費徵收時同步規劃臺板西邊申報制度那後面一樣那委員有沒有意見主席我其他的文字我沒什麼意見就是那個同步推動你們說要改成規劃我覺得這有差嗎我沒有說你同步實施啊"},{"start":12540.034,"end":12542.556,"text":"就照剛剛委員的文字修正通過第二案就照剛剛的文字修正通過"},{"start":12566.291,"end":12582.036,"text":"那臨時提案全部處理完畢．接下來請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請我們的彭部長請彭部長經濟部是誰啊楊署長產發署"},{"start":12595.129,"end":12595.369,"text":"委員好"},{"start":12624.889,"end":12625.089,"text":"國際社會福利局局長"},{"start":12645.914,"end":12657.205,"text":"我們再來看這個第二頁其實我們一直在說就是錯誤的能源政策他會的影響層面很大不僅僅只是台電的虧損不僅僅只是漲電價而已而且呢他對於我們要去達成我們的一個就是減碳"},{"start":12667.355,"end":12668.155,"text":"電力業、能源業電力以及燃氣業 對不對"},{"start":12696.533,"end":12720.447,"text":"他的占比將近6成之多所以我們現在的問題是說如果我們繼續去擁抱非核家園繼續的去依賴不管是這個天然氣也好或者是用燒煤也好這些火力發電會使得我們現在台電根本無法減碳"},{"start":12721.988,"end":12740.114,"text":"臺電無法減碳你如何去達到你的排碳的目標呢?好那我現在最主要的問題是在於來我為什麼請我們經濟部的長官來因為事實上如果根據你們現在科徵的費率臺電和中油都是排碳大戶"},{"start":12741.601,"end":12768.741,"text":"都是排碳大戶你說台電可以一直跟我們立法院要求怎麼追加預算補貼可是事實上有很多的民營電廠不是嗎對不對還是有很多的民營電廠所以我在這邊要請教我們經濟部的長官請問一下當我們這個碳費實施之後能不能保證我們的油電價格的成本"},{"start":12769.83,"end":12795.132,"text":"可以完全控制呢?我們油電價格會不會因此而提高?我剛剛講我最關心的是我們消費者現油電這個漲價大家就已經受不了了好未來在碳費實施會不會轉嫁到我們的電價轉嫁到我們的油價所以可不可以保證油電價格不因為我們碳費的徵收而因此提高可不可以"},{"start":12797.152,"end":12807.101,"text":"跟委員報告,那油電價格在我們經濟部裡面會有人員署跟台電、中油這邊會很詳實的評估啦,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那,那"},{"start":12823.294,"end":12825.795,"text":"非核家園就是我們沒辦法達成排碳減量目標的最大破口啦!"},{"start":12850.9,"end":12876.741,"text":"錯誤能源政策真的影響一大堆啊這個其實是現在大家比較少去注視到的那未來你油電價格要不要漲嗎那個我們環境部部長來你在整個的這個評估裡面對產業的影響裡面剛才你也承認電力是最大的這個排放量那未來油電價格要不要漲啊他要被徵收碳費啊"},{"start":12878.223,"end":12901.962,"text":"報告委員,你說的數字是有問題的,如果按照目前台電的電力規劃,它是可以自主減量的,它只要繳5億桌左右而已所以其實第一個是它跟過去能源價格上漲,基本上造成的波動是完全不一樣那我們其實委員你剛剛提供的CPI數字,其實我們算出來也只有0.08而已,所以並沒有像委員說的那麼的高"},{"start":12902.222,"end":12912.269,"text":"這是經濟來自於經濟部的計算那我最後一句話我時間到了所以那麼環境部長可以幫我保證就是碳費實施之後然後我們的油電價格不漲嗎"},{"start":12914.183,"end":12935.557,"text":"這個不是我的工作啊,報告委員。好啊,大家都不是你的工作,你推到經濟部,經濟部推到什麼什麼能源署,所以我們消費者繼續要當,怎麼樣?談吶?報告委員,這個其實第一個,這個只有5億多,還有其實它是自己這個發電的使用,自己線路的潰損的使用,所以基本上不會影響到每個人,而且我們也對外說,其實我們目前的CPI的衝擊只有0.08%,"},{"start":12938.069,"end":12942.371,"text":"我只要你保證油電價格不會因此漲價一句話60億的碳費的規模怎麼可能造成各種的漲價"},{"start":12955.936,"end":12983.083,"text":"我今天問你油電價格你不要跟我顧左右而言他嘛沒有辦法保證就代表問題存在啊對不對什麼叫政治語言啊你還是政治語言啊你不能保證就是不能保證油電價格不能漲價最後不是虧損虧損還是我納稅人來那個來貼補你永遠都是納稅人在付款啦錯誤的能源政策造成我們納稅人一隻牛線包被剝幾層皮啦好 謝謝"},{"start":12986.138,"end":12990.883,"text":"好,謝謝王宏威委員的發言。接下來請牛許廷委員發言。謝謝主席。彭部長、產發署長有請。請彭部長、楊署長。各位好。部長午安。"},{"start":13007.748,"end":13028.367,"text":"這本期今天質詢的主題叫做碳費不能變成贖罪券我們應該要讓這個政策能夠具體的導引所謂的減碳措施部長為什麼我們今天要搞出這麼多的這個制度的設計其實核心的目標是什麼探聽下要符合跟國際接軌國際接軌對不對也就是說大家基於國際上共同的目標我們有一個減量的專約義務"},{"start":13029.668,"end":13054.188,"text":"對,我們所有的政策應該是要符合這樣子的一個目標,對不對所以你包含碳費,有些人講碳稅,有些人講碳交易其實都是完成這個減量專業義務的政策手段部長應該不反對這樣的說法,對不對?沒錯好,那我們就進到所謂的制度設計的地方現在看起來我們是減量跟繳費的專業義務是可以脫鉤的嘛也就是說考量產業實際上發展的一個狀況你如果真的減量在實務上有些困難的時候,你可以用"},{"start":13055.209,"end":13081.542,"text":"講碳費的方式來做來等於說我也實踐了這樣子的一個責任嘛所以你等於除了碳費的這個收取之外你也提供了企業用自主減量然後加上優惠費率的這樣一個方式來做對不對這是我們現在的制度設計好我現在就要問這制度設計可能導致的一些問題因為本期請教一些學者專家也對業界做了一些了解那很多人其實是講啊很擔心啊就是說你這個優惠費率啊"},{"start":13082.282,"end":13106.728,"text":"真的會讓大家去做所謂的自主減量嗎?就是說你現在比如說281家先做對不對?我們就以這281家為範圍就好請問以目前的優惠機制因為你現在有行業別的指定削減跟技術標竿指定削減對不對?請問有多少家?你們政府的估計啊有多少家會去做行業別的指定削減?42%的有多少家會去做國家認定的技術標竿的23%的指定削減?"},{"start":13108.829,"end":13136.736,"text":"哪些人會,因為他為了要繳比較低的碳費所以他願意去做自主減量措施,你們有沒有估這樣的數字?好,包委員喔,因為141家裡面是上...281家裡面141家是上述的公司對,多數的企業有提供一頁資訊報告所以我自己也很認真的去一個一個去看他的這個減碳的計畫其實我們必須說,那前面20%家的公司,他佔的排在那80%他其實都是符合自主減量計畫的所以大多數,大..."},{"start":13137.376,"end":13165.499,"text":"抓大放小都沒有問題的但是我必須說還是有一些落後的比較弱勢的企業這個部分呢我們有跟經濟部討論希望他們可以多幫忙以這20%很好部長足按去看喔這一點本席是肯定啦那但是我們希望在這一次的答詢聽到比如一個軍令狀啊比如說我這個制度上路之後我就確定這20%前面相對的大戶裡面你講前面20%281家大概前面有三四十家對不對願意去做自主減量他們真的願意嗎你有多大的把握"},{"start":13165.839,"end":13184.55,"text":"他們最後真的是為了繳比較低的碳費,他們真的去做了自主減量你有多大的把握可以講,他們都會做這個事報告委員,這個我是一個族裔一個族裔的前20大的排碳源公司主動去跟他們說明,主動去拜訪希望他們那這20大公司,你都主動說明過了嗎都說過了他們直接回應說,那我們這樣做,有幾家"},{"start":13185.51,"end":13204.285,"text":"幾乎都同意都同意好那你有沒有去算過再精算過我們講你說最大戶的你都處理好對不對那你剛剛講說後面對不對你有沒有去精算過你現在他們收要繳碳費對不對因為現在很多問題是講我寧願繳碳費啊我也不願意搞自主減量啊因為我要搞自主減量我的設備各方各面的成本加起來可能比繳碳費還高"},{"start":13205.206,"end":13223.838,"text":"這就是我講的我擔心碳費最後變贖罪券我做不到減量我乾脆就繳錢了事然後最後我們還是沒有辦法達成國際減量的義務所以剛剛部長講前20大沒有問題後面的這些你有沒有做精算他們哪些符合然後差異在哪裡有沒有做一個相關的分析報告報告委員其實多數都是可以達得到的齁"},{"start":13224.498,"end":13224.779,"text":"這樣就好了啊?"},{"start":13245.819,"end":13261.733,"text":"部長因為這個題目很大我長期來做追蹤喔你就先從前20大開始喔因為你講你都主案拜訪過對不對是不是請環境部整理一份資料就是碳費跟他減量付出的成本比對有沒有減要的報告啦你的表格數字化的說法要去證明這20大是可以做這個事的可以嗎"},{"start":13262.954,"end":13282.768,"text":"他們的ESG報告寫的都很清楚那你用協助會審一下也沒有關係啊我接受你用ESG報告一些數字來注意啊我們找經濟部一起來進行好不好好一起進行好不好那最後一個問題就是你如果沒有辦法順利導應減量的時候我希望環境部會有備案嘛你還是要有因應措施嘛萬一他們理論上他們願意做自主減量萬一他們不做呢你有沒有備案"},{"start":13283.969,"end":13311.07,"text":"這個我希望部長因為還沒開始嘛我也不要都惡意推頂對不對但希望部長提醒一下環境部先做備案這個預備的方案就是要確保他還是要做減量這件事好最後一點點時間我問一下經濟部產發署欸福島減量他其實需要不少資源對不對我要投入很多的資金我們剛剛都在談成本的問題還有其他工具也可以應用比如說產創條例現在是吧是啊你經濟部有沒有足夠多而且足夠大額的政策資源去鼓勵他做減量夠不夠啊"},{"start":13311.59,"end":13339.789,"text":"跟委員報告,其實減碳的這件事是在112年我們就開始做了,我們那時候就協助企業從低碳化,包括...剛剛部長已經講了,就是經濟部也要一起來協助,因為我要的就是說,它實際上可能在碳費的支出跟它因應成本的一個對比,所以經濟部,你有提供哪些政策這個協助,哪些資源挹注,也要一併寫進報告裡面嘛,這樣我們才能夠讓這個東西它順利上路的時候,可以確實的導引減量,好不好?這一點還是要請環境部跟經濟部一起來合作啦,好不好?"},{"start":13341.51,"end":13341.59,"text":"請彭部長"},{"start":13365.97,"end":13375.588,"text":"侯委員好部長我們碳費的整個包括費率、機制當然現在對外有一定程度的公告了"},{"start":13376.636,"end":13405.009,"text":"那我剛才其實前面也聽到部長很多的答詢下一張那我大概整理一下其實我們在碳定價其實碳定價當然不只是碳費那整體的碳定價其實在台灣我認為有最重要的三個考量點這三個第一個是要達成氣候目標第二個對接國際第三個是維持境內外產業的公平性部長你同不同意?非常同意委員你完全說出我心裡面因為要把這個弄成平衡不容易"},{"start":13405.871,"end":13433.473,"text":"這三個是我們在規劃碳定價最重要的關鍵是在這三件事情上面那當然這幾天我也看到前面有些委員都很關注所謂臺板CBAN的問題簡單來說臺板CBAN在處理的問題就是剛才說的第三項維持境內外產業的公平性其實這個議題在今年的上半年的時候在應該是3月的時候我其實就有跟上一任的薛部長來去做討論那我知道之前環境部也把是把"},{"start":13434.893,"end":13449.98,"text":"臺版的不管是碳關稅或臺版的碳邊境調整機制是放在我整體的比較後面才會去來考慮的那我們現在看到產業上不管是水泥也鋼鐵也有很多的討論部長我剛才聽到你在前面的回答但你回答是說"},{"start":13451.922,"end":13471.974,"text":"會等2026年歐盟的CBAN正式實施以後那我們來看我們怎麼去處理這個問題可是部長我只想提醒一件事情其實我們現在臺灣產業最主要在臺版CBAN上面的需求他主要並不是處理臺灣跟歐盟之間的關係您也很清楚主要是因應可能是我們臺灣跟東南亞生產之間的關係"},{"start":13475.516,"end":13502.592,"text":"所以它不一定是直接對應到跟歐盟的CBAN的關係所以我們並不是說等到歐盟開始收了CBAN以後我們才要開始我覺得這個邏輯上面不是一個等價的其實這只是一個間接的關係當我們的碳費開始收了以後就開始會產生像跟東南亞國家的水泥或鋼鐵之間這個價格上面的或成本上面的落差所以我自己還是覺得恐怕不能夠"},{"start":13503.553,"end":13522.48,"text":"等到是歐盟的CBAN在開始的時候那我們才開始來大張旗鼓來去處理這個問題恐怕我們還要再提前尤其是當我們現在碳費的機制已經相對應清楚了以後我們現在碳費機制已經相對應清楚以後收的水準、收的費率都相對清楚以後我們現在其實就該來規劃這件事情"},{"start":13524.381,"end":13548.602,"text":"那部長,所以你覺得我們有沒有可能再往前一點?好,委員這個我會來努力啦齁,那我其實我剛才還沒有對外說的是說我們在行政部門也在討論一個事,就是說進口的水泥除了我們要要求他排放係數的申報之外,我們在所有的採購裡面也要要求說要有更強烈的這個所謂的低碳的水泥的這個策略行動方案在裡面,這是行政部門正在討論這個事情"},{"start":13549.643,"end":13568.159,"text":"市長我這邊有兩個事情想提醒第一個是我們當然支持第一個包括台版資源包括進口水泥鋼筋的申報這我們都絕對支持但一個地方是一定要留意尤其是國外他們申報的邊界跟標準是什麼我想這是現在產業很擔心的事情或產業正在苦惱這個事情就是說"},{"start":13568.679,"end":13568.799,"text":"下一則報告"},{"start":13590.714,"end":13617.969,"text":"再來一點是部長我們剛有講到你剛也講到說跟經濟部接下來有一個深度節能計畫我還是要提醒一個事情深度節能計畫最重要的基礎建設其實是能源管理資訊系統這個經濟部的產發局包括跟能源局能源署是不是也有在場可不可以一起上來這是最重要的事情尤其是剛剛部長你講到你接下來會想要引導包括國發基金包括保險基金投入"},{"start":13619.469,"end":13636.12,"text":"當你要引導這些基金投入的時候他就會跟你算那我的效益我的利潤怎麼去算這時候對不起喔剛剛說的能源管理資訊系統就是關鍵因為我如果沒有辦法清楚把效益給算清楚的時候請問你那些資金的投入尤其是私人資金的投入他要怎麼來算風險他沒辦法評估風險啊"},{"start":13638.314,"end":13648.581,"text":"所以部長我這邊想要再跟你提醒一個事情下一張吼我有看到在你的自主減量計劃管理辦法裡面有把提升能源效率包括裝設能源管理資訊系統有放進去成為"},{"start":13650.953,"end":13674.117,"text":"可以選擇的其中一項但是接下來下一個我自己是希望環境部也好環境部我們現在手上有碳費誘因機制能源署現在手上有深度節能推動計畫產發署有很多產業輔導的工具這三個部會這三個單位應該綜合起來跨部會的整合到底能夠在我們深度節能的工作裡面"},{"start":13674.677,"end":13690.037,"text":"能夠再推進多少尤其是下一張我希望是不是可以在一個月內提出一個更積極更普及的EMIS就是剛才說能源管理資訊系統的推廣的政策目標跟計畫因為我現在在不管是經濟部的"},{"start":13692.045,"end":13718.954,"text":"深度節能計畫裡面我沒有看到我目前都沒有看到明確的推廣目標跟政策目標我覺得是可惜的我還是要提醒現在我們各部會包括總統、院長大家都講深度節能可是只要沒有這個EMIS這個系統的話其實深度節能很可能只是留於概念上面的口號而已這部分希望可不可以我們三個單位一個月內來提出一個更完整EMIS推廣的目標跟計畫這可以嗎"},{"start":13721.734,"end":13743.588,"text":"我們剛剛有跟部內單位討論,我們提一個報告給委員這邊,再請委員來幫我們指導不是你,我要是三個單位一起整合,你們剛剛上一張,三個單位相關的計畫跟資源一起來提出,可以嗎?因為我們三個單位是要合在一起提深度減能計畫,我會把它放在裡面,一起跟委員報告好,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝洪森漢委員的發言,接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13751.636,"end":13755.339,"text":"今天我們討論這個碳費開徵碳費開徵你們跟經濟部你們跟經濟部兩個呢那請經濟部也上來你們兩個呢當說碳費開徵經濟部稱"},{"start":13778.896,"end":13798.691,"text":"這一個遺憾那現在你們協商的進度到底怎麼回 怎麼呢來 部長你先說吧委員我們跟經濟部我說說很好大家可能又不滿意阿說不好大家又見縫插針不見縫插針你就講實質的問題實質的面向因為經濟部遺憾怎麼會很好呢你們兩個是風馬牛不相對的阿在這個議題上面你們怎麼樣去把它融合在一起"},{"start":13809.079,"end":13829.014,"text":"這個其實我們是相互尊重他們的意見啦相互尊重,當他申表遺憾,你的看法呢?但是這個是碳費審議委員會共同的決議啦共同的決議,碳費審議會定的這個價錢請教,針對本席的提問當碳費開徵經濟部表遺憾,你環境部部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":13830.292,"end":13844.708,"text":"當然我們會希望說未來也多聽他們的意見,共同來聽產業的意見,其實我也跟聽了很多產業的意見。那經濟部,表姨和他繼續跟你溝通你現在的看法呢?"},{"start":13845.248,"end":13865.768,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為產業面對大環境的競爭,不是每一個行業都比較跟AI能夠有連結,所以有一些比較辛苦的,我們是希望國內的機制它是一體適用的,所以是不是可以穩健的從第一然後開始來做證收。你要不要再給環境部建議?"},{"start":13867.509,"end":13894.782,"text":"現在都在討論,經濟部會不會在跟環境部在溝通?我們會持續的做溝通。持續繼續溝通,還好有這個持續溝通。那我們實際在講,部長,2026年開始要繳交,收費的對象是直接跟使用電力間接溫室氣體排放,要達到多少以上的電力業、燃氣供應業以及製造業要課呢?"},{"start":13897.505,"end":13913.444,"text":"2.5萬噸那你現在一般費率是1公噸多少錢?300塊是以300塊那你提出也就是符合減量指定目標的自主減量計畫者可以適用優惠嗎?是嗎?對對對可以適用優惠有兩個階段AB兩岸"},{"start":13917.789,"end":13932.824,"text":"在這樣的情況之下目前經濟部仍就認為是有困難的那政府是議題的必須要好好的去檢討那在這樣的一個情況之下本是要告訴你也就是高碳洩漏事業的單位"},{"start":13934.165,"end":13958.756,"text":"在碳費公司當中,最初可以想排放係數的一個折扣,對不對?這是全球各個國家都朝這個方向那請問,你何時可以拍板?你的項目?你的項目何時可以拍板?什麼時候可以給社會大眾?給產業說明?何時可以拍板?國外都已經有囉!國外都已經有囉!"},{"start":13960.148,"end":13978.858,"text":"何時可以排版高碳洩漏的這個部分項目?何時可以排版?跟我們報告,因為我們現在在等那個主計處把產業關聯表11月要公告,那因為他會是我們計算高碳洩漏風險的一個很重要的資料。11月下個月"},{"start":13979.238,"end":13990.553,"text":"主席主委出來對出來那你們預計什麼時候會我們會跟經濟部就這個資料再去做溝通那預計什麼時候會公告因為你們一定有一個指標啊比如說"},{"start":13993.874,"end":14000.941,"text":"這個鋼鐵製煉業有沒有報告在裡面?有沒有?國際上現在高碳洩漏風險 經濟部有點頭鋼鐵跟水泥是各國都普遍認定是有高碳洩漏所以換句話說11月主計單會出來你們預計什麼時候可以宣布?"},{"start":14010.831,"end":14026.469,"text":"我們應該希望明年的上半年可以有把那個認定的準則做一個公告時間要加快你們經濟部跟環境部在這裡因為產業很緊張明年你現在說的是明年的上半年時間要加快"},{"start":14027.53,"end":14040.94,"text":"這是第一個第一個時間要加快不要拖在明年中了好不好讓業者趕快能夠應對好不好這第一個第二個碳費開徵你的碳費藍圖你什麼時候要公佈要明確化來請教你看了這個圖第5次的會議審議會議當中你2026年到2030年你在這邊有說那你什麼時候要公佈你的碳費藍圖"},{"start":14055.763,"end":14070.825,"text":"這個是每兩年有碳費審議委員會會討論一次你告訴我你什麼時候要公佈這個事實上每兩年就要檢討一次它的成效你告訴我你近期什麼時候要公佈你連公佈都沒有你還講兩年之後的事情"},{"start":14072.128,"end":14078.233,"text":"報告委員,其實這個委員都討論到最後一個階段2030年可能是1200到1800這個當中是不是一個協力的路徑協力的路徑到底你是不是承載你的2026年到2030年從300漲到1800噸這個是跟國際接軌的一個數字我請問"},{"start":14093.564,"end":14109.318,"text":"我們政府是不是如此你要明確地告訴民眾因為我們必須要以價自量這個概念從根源以價自量這個非常的重要如果你沒有給人家公佈我現在300我可以吸收"},{"start":14110.439,"end":14131.714,"text":"但是我如果到我就不減碳我如果到1800我吸收不了我做價給消費者這怎麼辦這不是政府應該要做的所以我具體說明具體說明第一個也就是說你什麼時候可以讓碳費的藍圖明確化請你告訴我這一點非常的重要請告訴我"},{"start":14132.134,"end":14147.66,"text":"關委員這個其實這種制度不見得是一個國際上最好的制度所以我們承諾在4年內會推動總量管制的排放交易所以我給你功課因為時間的關係我給你功課請你要儘快你現在沒有要公佈碳費藍圖你沒有我請你要公佈我請你要公佈"},{"start":14153.422,"end":14174.059,"text":"上路不公布人家怎麼預定怎麼應對呢所以這個就是民間非常的憂心那拜託拜託碳費藍圖你一定要去公布我這個功課給你好不好這個功課一定要給你不是先上路再講沒有那回事的那未來產業要怎麼應對很重要所以最後一個功課給你"},{"start":14175.8,"end":14201.979,"text":"給我,也就是我們臺中中火市世界最高的碳排這個電廠而且我們臺中也是製造業精密業發展最重要的重鎮也是都市企業排碳屬全國第三名我們的碳費是專款專用我要拜託部長在這邊你們在分配的時候一定要對臺中一個公平的分配我們是全世界曾經剛剛我說過的這樣的一個背景"},{"start":14202.739,"end":14210.131,"text":"我們付出那麼多一定要好好的讓我們有更多的補助額專案的來作為我們檢探可以嗎"},{"start":14213.102,"end":14230.579,"text":"這個我們碳費審議會會來考量這個事情你一定要考量喔我一定會追蹤好不好那以上剛剛所說的拜託尤其是我們的碳費藍圖一定要公佈全世界沒有一個國家說上了再講這個是不負責任的一個態度嘛好不好一定要去將碳費藍圖要公佈給社會大眾瞭解好不好謝謝"},{"start":14234.423,"end":14258.231,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員那我請等一下質詢的委員時間稍微控制一下好 接下來請張祺凱委員發言請彭部長張委員好彭部長好"},{"start":14264.335,"end":14288.055,"text":"你是內閣裡面大家對你比較相當有期待的啦謝謝謝謝你任內應該有個目標排碳污染一定是要降低嘛對不對我問你一個數字齁2025年啊我們的火力發電占台灣所有的發電的量75.5%你知道2023年的年底是多少嗎80應該可以接近吧很接近啦齁很接近再高一點點81.8"},{"start":14293.479,"end":14319.666,"text":"2005年是75.5喔我們一直在說我們要建立碳排要盡量去推動結果推到去年底變81.8包委員這個不一樣喔排碳的跟排燃氣的這個排碳係數差了三分之一喔阿燃氣是一個過渡的一個階段阿現在過渡會太久了啦對不對不一定你的任內我不曉得你會當多久你任內到時候大概就算了你上來的時候污染有多少"},{"start":14320.606,"end":14345.988,"text":"你離開的時候,污染有沒有降下來?我剛才說的若是最近這幾年看起來在往下在往上漲嘛,對不對?這才是現在最大的問題來,我們來看一個最近通常的新聞最近有一個知名的藝人啊王建民過世了,肺腺癌嘛我們的民醫啊出來講,雖然他講很多很重要的事情他講啊以前是以核養綠,現在是什麼?用肺去養綠嗎?"},{"start":14348.749,"end":14377.384,"text":"現在癌症每一年多了一萬多個新的這個患者台灣現在有兩個世界第一來 我兩個世界第一因為空氣汙染造成的EGFR的突變型的肺腺癌世界第一另外一個第一是什麼EGFR的突變的比例也是世界第一這個跟空氣汙染都有非常非常大的關係我相信你從民間來大家對你有期待"},{"start":14378.715,"end":14406.056,"text":"大家都希望這個污染是要降低的我要提醒大家 站在人民的角度全台灣人每年罹患最多的癌症就是肺癌跟肺腺癌死亡最多的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌花最多錢的癌症也是所以你怎麼看民醫講的還有全國的民眾講的火電你那是民間你怎麼樣讓這個火力發電可以降低"},{"start":14407.844,"end":14409.144,"text":"發電是我們北京全台灣污染源最嚴重的嘛 對不對"},{"start":14436.87,"end":14453.868,"text":"市長發電你是從排炭量來看其實我們的這種所謂的發電的污染源在某一個地方不一樣像中部有的地方大概佔兩成一成左右那到多數是所謂交通污染源會比較多當然污染有很多種不過發電這邊的火力發電一定要盡力盡量去減少那這個我們有共識我再給你看進一步的因為今天在談這個"},{"start":14461.211,"end":14477.618,"text":"談這個議題跟你要專款專用顯然 碳費的專款專用可能也有關係我們看看 全台灣離癌致死的 肺癌跟肺腺癌朋友、外島、朋友是最多的 在台灣啊就是賣寮那個燃煤那個發電廠 守在地的賣寮還有台南市 叫齊凱的故鄉 加義關"},{"start":14484.148,"end":14497.418,"text":"剛剛在講你要降低這個污染的同時那如果因為污染你沒有做好那你現在又要收碳費嘛 對不對你碳費專款專用碳費裡面有沒有一部分的專款專用是會去補助人民的健康去預防他得到癌症"},{"start":14498.393,"end":14525.259,"text":"報告委員 這個碳費是為了要減碳的那減碳跟減空污 空污有一個空污費也在處理 已經有 早就有一個空污費那其實這個是比較跟空污費比較有關聯性那我們是減碳為主 那碳跟空污這是不一樣有關聯性的東西那如果因為政府的錯誤政策 所以你說了人民的這個碳費那我的健康受影響 所以這筆費用收進來不會到在幫這些病患上面 不會有"},{"start":14526.55,"end":14548.767,"text":"這個是屬於空汙費,因為空汙會造成這個可能的各種的因素,但是我必須跟委員說,造成這個癌症的這個原因有很多種,空汙只是其中的一項。好,那除了健康之外,另外一個就是費用,我們看一下。健康醫護,你如果做不到健康醫護就是費用。那個部長你知道,這個可能問你比較不清楚,經濟部比較能夠回答。"},{"start":14549.847,"end":14555.629,"text":"古泥、錦泥、河山廠、一號機跟二號機幫台電賺了多少錢?時間不夠啦,我簡單講啦,300億對不對?那你今年經濟部去把合一的一號機已經停了二號機馬上五月份又要停了對不對?那你停完以後整個成本又增高啦這是不是又另外一個問題啦?市長,你們有沒有想過這個問題?"},{"start":14579.895,"end":14579.915,"text":"市長"},{"start":14608.114,"end":14612.276,"text":"現在我一直在看你說這個對CPI的影響非常的小對不對那我現在是要提醒一下要注意那個蝴蝶效應"},{"start":14637.845,"end":14656.552,"text":"我用台鐵來做比擬給你聽啦對台鐵因為電價漲了之後電價漲了之後所以它幅度漲價不多喔明年才增加2.228億你們在講說什麼什麼那些電價那些不影響可是它就影響到台鐵馬上就要漲人民的票價了這整個物價就有衝擊了"},{"start":14657.412,"end":14675.293,"text":"報告委員這個其實我一直針對某些的建商特別是大佬他一直喊說會漲5到10%我們一直強力的去跟那個房仲業者去談這個事情所以我也找了很多的業者談他們也告訴我沒有那麼多所以也在這個機會請所有的媒體對外說不要再用這種擴大的效益造成蝴蝶效應"},{"start":14675.854,"end":14676.274,"text":"接下來請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":14706.687,"end":14734.3,"text":"好,謝謝召委,那一樣邀請部長請彭部長六委員好部長好,不然請教一下,我不知道剛剛有沒有委員問過就是我們碳費每公噸300塊這個300塊它的制定是怎麼樣制定出來的我們有一個碳費審議委員會然後涵蓋了這個政府部門還有專家學者還有NGO一起制定出來的理論理論"},{"start":14735.461,"end":14758.12,"text":"理論喔,其實他們有算出各種的這種情境,然後對減碳的效果,然後甚至還有包含對CPI、GDP的衝擊,最後一個折衷的數字你有點抽象喔,呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵"},{"start":14758.64,"end":14773.312,"text":"產生用電可能產生的碳我們要去把這個碳消米所需要付的成本還是說我們是站在抑制這個用電的方向來制定這個會有不同的面向去討論這個"},{"start":14775.353,"end":14776.854,"text":"我們請我們的沈議委委員會的主席在這邊好不好 來 我們次長"},{"start":14800.115,"end":14819.734,"text":"委員好其實我們在碳費審議會的時候我們有參考很多的包括其他國家的碳定價然後也包括我們詳細的以產業別去看這個不同的費率對於產業的毛利率的影響當作其中一個指標所以我們在第5次的碳費審議會是有建議說一般費率是大概300到500塊的區間"},{"start":14821.676,"end":14822.296,"text":"所以依照主席講的我們這個300塊的碳費的訂定"},{"start":14849.651,"end":14870.936,"text":"好像是用從對產業的影響的層面來當作一個主要定定的一個標準這是其中之一的影響那有沒有去考量到我們這個因為專款專用嘛對不對那我們譬如說生產一度電所生產的碳那可能需要多少的成本無論有沒有辦法完全消彌"},{"start":14872.898,"end":14887.995,"text":"我們沒有從這方面來考慮嗎因為我們總是專款專用嘛我總不能去訂了一個價格然後沒有跟你說我這筆錢要怎麼用然後他要繳的心我的意思就是說你要讓繳的人繳得心甘情願而不是說我繳了這筆錢"},{"start":14889.608,"end":14903.194,"text":"其實有點我繳這筆錢好像是你政府為了要減碳然後強制我來繳的一筆錢然後為了要減少我的支出我來減碳但是對於繳費的人來說他希望他繳的這筆費用他是有一個計算公式的嘛"},{"start":14904.264,"end":14928.879,"text":"跟我們報告就是因為我們其他我們在參考其他國家的制度的時候每一個企業因為他的製程然後他的這個減碳的潛力不同所以要去幫每一家去算減碳成本其實可能要每一個企業他自己比較清楚那所以我們在做估算的時候我們變成是要用一些學術上能夠收集到的一般性的資訊來看"},{"start":14931.06,"end":14959.909,"text":"減量成本確實不太容易成為一個比較具體的評估的水準所以我們變成是從這個毛利率是其中一個那參考其他國家已經在實施的經驗我們也從這個角度所以就感覺起來好像我們國家就是去增加了一個可能用電的一個成本來逼你減碳沒有沒有不是用電的成本是減碳減碳聽起來就是增加你的成本來逼你減碳這樣而已嗎沒有沒有好像沒有更好的意義在裡面報告委員這是碳定價碳定價全世界都這樣走"},{"start":14960.729,"end":14985.244,"text":"那我也必須說因為我是520接手過去討論的一兩年就是所謂的碳費的這個制度所以其實我們觀察到全世界大概走到碳稅、廢稅或總量管制的碳交易都有在做所以其實從市場面我其實就是希望說300塊這個數字不是憑空蹦出來的剛剛講的一個可能對產業的衝擊這我可以理解這是必要的因素之一但是它不應該是"},{"start":14986.69,"end":15013.972,"text":"我去考慮一個費率然後去算對你的充其多少挑一個對你減少比較少的一個費率你能夠接受的一個費率來訂定他我覺得他應該要賦予更多的一個精神在裡面而且我有更多的實際的一些計算在裡面好不好希望委員有這個就剛剛講的一句話心甘情願你要人家講碳費要人家講的心甘情願不過委員會報委員其實說很多的產業分割我說萬一這個費到處去分配給很多的地方他們就不大心甘情願"},{"start":15014.913,"end":15015.333,"text":"接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":15044.386,"end":15070.371,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長委員好部長原定2025年1月就要起徵的碳費現在環境部公告是每噸公噸300元的價格跟延後到2026年開徵這已經是最終版本了嗎?是不過我原是2025年起徵2026年交對"},{"start":15072.751,"end":15089.737,"text":"就是2026年交嗎?但是我們今年的費率明年5月要市申報。好,非常好。反正你們的碳費其實當然不是你的任內啦。之前也是很多部分一言再言。希望這次能夠如期開始去進行,可以嗎?只要委員不反對就是如期的。"},{"start":15091.698,"end":15096.643,"text":"今年4月的時候,我有向經濟部詢問,未來碳費開徵之後,台電是不是受到影響?當時經濟部回答我,一據7.0變遷因應法28條,"},{"start":15112.682,"end":15128.849,"text":"徵收碳費的對象包括溫室氣體之直接間接排放源其中生產電力之直接排放源得檢據提供電力消費之排放量證明文件向中央主管機關申請公告扣除直接排放源之排放量所以"},{"start":15129.669,"end":15156.69,"text":"電力業被徵收碳費的範疇要環境部公告收費辦法後才能夠確定那我想請教一下現在你們已經公告了嘛 對不對那有協助台電精算大概多少錢嗎大概5億左右5億左右是不是我看到一個資料寫15億為什麼有這個落差基本上他可能是沒有自主減量的計畫題的話可能是這樣所以他按照自主減量他可以就更低嘛 對不對好 那麼"},{"start":15159.271,"end":15176.637,"text":"臺電發電主要供用戶使用按照臺電的說明實際電力事業排放量為盤查登錄排放量扣除外售電力排放量這也代表使用者付費干液所以最終是由電力使用者來負擔碳費成本"},{"start":15178.078,"end":15180.14,"text":"一般民生用電因為我們是規律有幾個例如說發電業、製造業等等所以一般的家戶是沒有受到影響的"},{"start":15193.433,"end":15214.535,"text":"那不是跟你前面講的這個使用者付費的概念是就是有例外啦因為我們徵收的對象是這種發電業還有製造業為主發電製造業為主一般的費率之外還定有優惠費率就是A50跟B100兩種方案嘛對不對那目前原本可適用的範圍有多大"},{"start":15217.385,"end":15239.131,"text":"目前我們有提到說鼓勵業者盡量減免所以使用電力生產間接排放目標年排放如果削減達到6%或直接排放製程達到一定標準就可以使用A方案那我想要請教一下因為外界就認為說事實上這個其實並沒有定很明確的範圍"},{"start":15242.072,"end":15266.929,"text":"這個範圍算很明確嘛,因為這樣做法的話,基本上有人也認為這是打假球,其實就會讓實際上很多費率定定,那變成是看起來是適用300元但其實你只要提出一些減量計劃,就計劃而已喔,那就可能是在100元、50元那高碳洩漏產業甚至可能只有10元跟20元,有沒有這個可能性?"},{"start":15267.609,"end":15291.368,"text":"基本上報告委員這個是穩健上路最重要的先低後高所以當然這個我知道環保團體對這個數字的確不滿意希望拉到國外一樣的水準但是其實國外也有這樣的所謂的高碳洩漏或是整個優惠的方式先行都是先低開始所以我們先走一步我不反對從低開始可是我就要講下一個問題因為在到達我們2030年省立會建議是多少錢"},{"start":15296.852,"end":15310.257,"text":"一千二到一千五一千二到一千五嘛我這邊為什麼又寫這資料是一千八哦一千八一千八不好意思我想說是我錯還是你錯好那請問你現在已經是2024年對不對你2026年開增然後一開始又我們剛剛講的就是我們環團所擔心的你那個起點那麼低的狀況那從2026年算到2023年剩幾年啦2030年六年"},{"start":15324.137,"end":15346.712,"text":"我想2026年,四年而已啦。四年而已你可以在這麼短的時間內從300到1800元嗎?那個是建議啦,但是我也必須說國際的探定價有一定的規模。所以人家說你打假球也不能說是說假的。你現在跟我講那只是建議,意思是說你其實也沒打算做啦。"},{"start":15348.613,"end":15367.904,"text":"三零年前做到一千二到一千八是這個意思嗎我們是希望是說讓這個碳定價制度先行然後走到總量管制的碳交易那你的審議會就不用建議一個什麼二零三零年一千二到一千八不是嗎那是審議委員會的建議嗎對啊那我要講就是說那你也是跟審議委員會的建議是基本上"},{"start":15369.505,"end":15396.483,"text":"這樣講啦 部長你好像感覺上啦就比較沒有那麼有自信啦就是在說沒有 我很有自信所以很有自信在2030年可以到1200到1800因為其實在5、6年後其實全世界的探定價就會起來所以這個也是提醒每個企業真的要去做檢探這件事情好 因為時間到了齁後面的問題要用書面質詢來取代但是不管怎麼樣講齁當然我覺得兩邊平衡是為難的可是事實上"},{"start":15397.244,"end":15398.384,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安是不是有請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":15429.574,"end":15451.576,"text":"委員好部長好那今天大家在討論這個有關於碳費的一個問題那相信這個我還是要先跟部長報告我個人本席是認為就是因為政府錯誤的能源政策現在台灣主要是八成的火力發電兩成現在所謂這個政府所謂的綠能的發電我覺得現在才是這個碳費"},{"start":15452.435,"end":15476.265,"text":"還有現在全台灣是一個大型的這個碳排放量很高的國家的我認為是主要的問題之一所以今天要先來請教我們這個部長的一個問題在第5次這個費率審議委員會以後我們現在的結論我們可以看到這張圖表這圖表裡面有顯示2025年到2029年的一個整體的費率那大家都知道現在2025年這個依照審議委員會的結論"},{"start":15480.126,"end":15505.518,"text":"這個費率有分為每公噸300元那另外有個A跟B的優惠費率B是100元每噸100元跟這個優惠A的部分是500元每公噸的部分那我想要請教部長的是針對這個圖表而言是不是2025年到2027年目前來看這個費率一般費率是不會做調整的"},{"start":15506.358,"end":15524.988,"text":"因為我看這個圖表是水平的是不會調整到2027年才會對費率來做一個調整我相信這是企業所關心的是不是這個費率就會定在這邊不會變動請部長回答對報告委員這個其實是我們也參考了新加坡新加坡大概就是類似這樣的額度在制定的每幾年每兩三年就調漲一次"},{"start":15526.118,"end":15542.65,"text":"好,就是所以兩年內不會變動,這是肯定的?對對對好,那這個第一點我覺得是大家所關心的,兩年內不會變動那現在來講是有關有針對這個排放量這是兩萬五千公噸以上的企業才會做課徵那我請教部長這兩年內會不會這個其他的這個"},{"start":15546.132,"end":15558.036,"text":"排放量會不會有改變會不會有其他的企業會因應這樣的這個審議會的結論會去做調整就是會不會增加其他新的企業除了這現在281家公司當然會可能因為這個281家或是500個廠都是變動每年都是變動的"},{"start":15563.185,"end":15579.616,"text":"變動的方式就是依照它排放量如果有超過25000公噸那這一點就是我要請教部長的我突然跟我們同仁討論到一點那會不會有企業啊因為我跟部長報告未來這個從300每公噸300元會增加到2030年可能到1200元"},{"start":15580.917,"end":15602.997,"text":"那會不會有一些企業很聰明啊,我不知道你們是怎麼樣去審查這個碳排放量,那會不會有一些企業它會不會拆分公司,或是它把這個工廠的部分分成再做一家工廠,拆成兩家工廠,導致你們在審查的部分的時候看不出來它的到底的排放量是多少,會不會有這樣的情況,那導致你們沒有辦法收到完整的碳稅,碳費。"},{"start":15603.858,"end":15631.018,"text":"對,報告委員,這個其實也請以後的會計師不要用這樣的取巧的辦法啦細節我請我們正式主席來,他們當時有討論到這個問題好,請說委員好,其實因為我們在要求他們要做盤查的時候呢是以一個工廠作為邊界沒錯,那如果他們如果派成兩家工廠或者是直接未來做一個產業的變動感覺起來好像有沒有排碳可是事實上排碳量還是很高"},{"start":15632.218,"end":15649.85,"text":"市長跟委員報告因為現在所有的這些工廠他其實都也有這個固定污染源的這個許可所以如果他們要去更動這一些他的這個為了碳費去更動這些數字他其實就會涉及到他的許可證的變更固定污染源許可證的變更這不是一件容易的事"},{"start":15650.458,"end":15675.699,"text":"好,所以大家都解釋很清楚,所以我要跟部長講的,其實不是規劃的問題,就像我剛一開始提到的,台灣本身就是因為錯誤的能源政策,所以碳排放量我個人是居高不下,最近這10年,碳排放量我相信也是慢慢沒有任何的下降的一個狀況,所以我要這邊請教部長,你是不是可以來,我認為最大的問題就是全台灣的碳排放量,"},{"start":15676.429,"end":15679.931,"text":"臺灣的碳排放量在未來的10年或5年或10年或20年,臺灣的碳排放量整體要下降到多少?"},{"start":15696.943,"end":15721.08,"text":"報告委員其實在這個新訂定的例如說我們內部在檢討這個國家的這個第三階段的管制目標的時候我們目前推算到2035年那其實我也看到台電的數字有大幅度的這個減少但是這個其實還是要多元綠能各方面的能源的轉型所以部長我的意思是說你們只管企業啊企業一定要去課碳費啊那可是全台灣的整體的碳排放量不一定會減少"},{"start":15722.04,"end":15747.674,"text":"就是因為企業當你收取很高的碳費的時候企業他們會想一些方式來自保嘛可是全台灣的整體碳排放量根本沒有變少啊例如說國際來看我們台灣是在打假球啊這要是一個很重要的問題你要定立一個目標啊就是說你在要求企業在收這些費率的時候其實台灣本身我們台灣要設定自己的一個本身的一個目標不然說那麼多碳費全台灣的碳排放量"},{"start":15748.935,"end":15775.015,"text":"還是居高不下,我覺得這是一個很大的問題,部長你認同嗎?認同,我們現在也正在做這個事情,重新再盤點部長是不是說未來希望你訂定目標以後再跟所有的委員,我們所有委員來做分享好不好?可以可以可以,謝謝那第二個我來,結束了,時間太長,好,謝謝大家不好意思,好,謝謝張志倫委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":15785.029,"end":15788.71,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝主席,是不是還是請我們彭部長請彭部長李委員好部長,我們現在供第6次的碳費費率審議會,確定了碳費徵收的費率但是這個決議,距離有效推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠今天質詢的委員都覺得說,這樣企業怎麼活啊,現在大家都沒競爭力啊但是我要持不同的意見,就是說"},{"start":15814.719,"end":15831.784,"text":"你這個推動減碳的目標,相去甚遠以外,它可能還使台灣在國際碳邊境,就是C-band之下,處於不利的位置,而且會拖累了我國的綠色競爭力。你剛才也講了很多遍,我必須要再講說,以這個歐盟鋼鐵製品為例,台灣"},{"start":15839.826,"end":15851.395,"text":"這3年平均的輸出到歐盟的有幾億美金的規模?我記得數字大概5、6億左右什麼5、6億?大概是39.72億美金美金!我們的鋼鐵輸出裡面我們輸出到歐盟佔了幾個%?"},{"start":15869.363,"end":15886.227,"text":"18.79將近兩成我們鋼鐵外銷的將近兩成都是賣給歐盟啊所以這個CBAN的這個機制對台灣影響很大那我今天講說我們碳費你現在公告的費率也遠低於國際標準所以我們今天很害怕就是說"},{"start":15888.067,"end":15902.458,"text":"明年還沒有要起徵喔那在這種狀況裡面你到底有沒有辦法有效去推動減碳那你們現在一般費率一公噸是300元優惠的方案B是一公噸100元優惠的方案A方案是一公噸50元那這些費率都遠低於國際標準和你們開會的時候專家所建議的"},{"start":15914.648,"end":15936.174,"text":"那歐盟碳交易市場因為我們大概兩成的鋼鐵以鋼鐵業為例啦就不要講電子產品啦以鋼鐵業為例歐盟的碳交易市場一公噸是多少錢70塊歐元左右70塊歐元喔台幣新台幣2500元以美國環保署去估算每噸的碳排放它的外部成本"},{"start":15937.234,"end":15941.015,"text":"外部成本丟給社會去承擔的一公噸是190美元就相當於新台幣6100元才有機會將升溫控制在不超過攝氏2度倫敦政經學院的研究團隊講說台灣碳費應該逐年提升到2030年的3000元當然倫敦政經學院講是他的事但是我們要根據台灣氣候行動"},{"start":15966.162,"end":15992.002,"text":"網絡的研究人家民間有做了一個研究他說大部分的企業最終適用的都是費率較為寬鬆的優惠費率B啦一公噸一百塊啦然後大家都在講說高碳洩漏的風險企業還要享有排放量調整係數值的折扣所謂高碳洩漏的風險企業有可能他的費率會是繳多少錢一公噸"},{"start":15993.012,"end":15995.975,"text":"所以剩下20元啦那我現在在跟你講我用的高碳洩漏這幾個字喔是以前的概念啦現在的概念一個台塑合淨廠拖幾年你跟我說從他們預計計劃興建到可以運作拖幾年高碳洩漏這假議題啦"},{"start":16018.24,"end":16032.95,"text":"用高碳洩漏的概念然後來給企業打折,我也可以說是這樣子講啊你說一個石化業要遷出去,人家就不要你遷出去一個鋼鐵廠,台灣不好意思也要刷去外國,很簡單喔台塑合淨廠要搞幾年啊,不是10年而已啊所以我講說用高碳洩漏的這個風險,然後再給你打兩折"},{"start":16045.509,"end":16048.572,"text":"所以我在講說,今天一公噸300元也是假議題,也是假的那高碳洩漏,無量用電商嚴重的石化鋼鐵業只需要繳實際的這個碳費可能繳不了多少都遠低於日本的碳價水準,更不要講其他國際標準啊"},{"start":16066.852,"end":16082.743,"text":"那我現在講說你們優惠的費率制度根本就缺乏退場機制淪為這個產業逃避減碳的藉口你們的費率A方案低到一公噸50元相當於一公斤一公斤的排碳量只需要講0.05元"},{"start":16085.7,"end":16104.064,"text":"你們的優惠費率A、B方案一公噸100元一公噸50元高碳洩漏再打折以後打兩折就是20元跟10元比茶葉蛋還要便宜啊這樣的費率大家在你們開會的時候就說對於實質推動實質減碳是沒有任何幫助的你們預計一年收60億你來告訴我如果再這樣推起來台塑一年要交多少錢"},{"start":16115.738,"end":16119.262,"text":"人家民間也幫你賺了13.7億,台積電繳多少?10億,10.4億,中油繳多少?不到1億,中鋼繳多少?"},{"start":16133.427,"end":16148.093,"text":"不到2億啦所以人家都幫你們算了所以在這種狀況裡面這些費率優惠費率的A方案B方案沒有設置明確的落日條款缺乏退款機制的優惠費率啊成為高碳排產業長期逃避減碳責任的藉口但是"},{"start":16156.037,"end":16163.963,"text":"欸!不是這麼簡單啦!我們如果我們的碳費政策跟國際脫節影響產業的國際競爭力,不是說我們台灣如果比較少就好了就好了,我們才有競爭力,不是!我剛才講過了,你的鋼鐵業有將近19%,將近兩成是輸出往歐盟去的,人家2026開始的CBAN,"},{"start":16179.417,"end":16186.544,"text":"都已經要執行了 如果說台灣一公噸課繳20元 優惠費率打兩折繳20元請問部長 這個到歐盟以後會怎麼樣 歐盟是一公噸2500我們在台灣只繳20元的話 那到CBAN的機制到歐盟是不是要再補課"},{"start":16204.339,"end":16216.472,"text":"再去買憑證是不是報告委員那個不一樣歐盟是有一個是總量管制的排放交易但在那個底下他其實他也有這種高碳洩漏也有一些免費額度沒關係啦我再問你啦"},{"start":16218.703,"end":16245.779,"text":"我現在說台灣的碳費相較於中日韓我們起步已經很晚了當然我們還要再延緩一年那各國都要制定更嚴格的這個碳定價連中國都預計在今年要把水泥業、鋼鐵業、電結、鋁綜合價格收盤價在今年他們都要突破100元人民幣韓國在今年制定第4階段要重新整頓運作不善的排放交易體系而且還要提升碳價"},{"start":16247.08,"end":16260.934,"text":"丹麥、加拿大、這個河南,這個就不要講了,連新加坡的規劃碳價要在2030年提升到37到80美元,如果台灣的碳費費率偏低,沒有任何動力驅動企業減碳,他可能會錯失將危機化為轉機的契機。"},{"start":16267.318,"end":16290.831,"text":"那現在這種碳費費率設計20塊、10塊難以推動產業轉型阻礙綠色經濟發展所以我們現在在講說2026你在講CBAN正式實施以後到底企業需不需要向歐盟繳交碳關稅如果我們的這個費率太低不管用什麼技術去換算差額是不是要繳到歐盟去"},{"start":16293.826,"end":16300.151,"text":"你交給歐盟跟台灣交給台灣台灣還可以至少把這個錢留下來作為減碳使用欸委員這其實歐盟他也有一個免費額度他也有這種交換優惠系數對對但你覺得10塊錢跟人家那個Quota免費的額度"},{"start":16313.384,"end":16337.596,"text":"會達不到那個標準嗎?委員其實這個不要政府做其實企業出口的他自己都有這個意思啦那要看什麼樣的企業現在的意思是說你在台灣你很要留在台灣站在台灣台灣政府可以來推動我們的食指減碳或者是氣候調適的政策用錢可以用你是搞企業才去啊去各國買還是去交代歐盟去去買那個憑證"},{"start":16340.817,"end":16350.327,"text":"施工,錢就沒留在台灣啊所以碳費政策缺乏長期的規劃忽視了這個歷史性的不公平現在企增價過低,未來企業面臨更急劇的碳價上漲的壓力這不是我們立委大家親切公共,大多數都不用叫啦"},{"start":16358.974,"end":16366.738,"text":"但是事實上呢 這個像油電價格補貼 享有排一噸碳高達1000元以上的補貼 在這個企業界都是這樣子啊所以當前每一噸新增的碳排都會加劇極端氣候上的發生 外部成本每噸是5700元 結果他們光是一個碳費 一噸20元說得過去嗎"},{"start":16383.186,"end":16405.203,"text":"所以碳費的課徵,其實矯正這種不公平的第一步,留著讓我們來減量,或者是讓我們來調適用。當然部長,這樣一般費率300元,大多數事實上都課不到300元,遠低於國際水準,你覺得說我們這樣子競爭上的劣勢有沒有做過評估報告?"},{"start":16406.857,"end":16426.486,"text":"報告委員因為歐盟是2026年才開始我們還有一點時間2026不會很久餒對啊還有兩年的時間所以其實我們先上路啦不然的話如果照委員那麼比較高的數字當然我也期待比較高但是如果這個高的話其實整個要推動起來是的確有一定的難度啦沒有很高啊因為你扣20元到10元啊大多數"},{"start":16428.547,"end":16433.629,"text":"而且不要忘了你們盤點的繳費是一場一場比如說台塑它就不是整個全部台塑了它是一個場一個場去計算的整個台塑是嗎你們25000的Quota扣減額度25000一場一場你搞不清楚不是我搞不清楚每一場都擁有25000公噸的免費額"},{"start":16452.376,"end":16454.317,"text":"所以整個台塑如果有20個廠他20個廠減掉2萬5跟20個廠每一廠減掉2萬5變成25萬噸的減碳欸那個免費額欸所以你們已經大大的在照顧這些業者了並不是沒有然後再高碳排再優惠再打兩折打一折打兩折竟然沒有100元啦"},{"start":16479.933,"end":16508.226,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面優惠費率到底會不會有退場的機制你可不可以告訴我們我們未來會逐步的隨著這個時間進行每兩年會調整一次所以這個一定會有退場的機制這個可能會導致某些產業長期逃避減碳的責任還是說這個優惠費率你說兩年減到一次但是會不會像國土計劃法會不會像工廠管理輔導法一樣一言再言你覺得呢"},{"start":16509.315,"end":16510.362,"text":"我們在這裡先講好喔"},{"start":16512.383,"end":16519.086,"text":"所以事實上許多國家都在加速提高碳價中國、韓國、新加坡都這樣子了這種狀況裡面你優惠的、不落日的、難以落日的到時候其實對...不要講說對台灣不利了對這些企業本身就不利了所以我們需要的是破例始祖的政策而不這樣子為首為尾討好財團這些現在要站到都財團啦"},{"start":16540.814,"end":16545.256,"text":"要不然一般中小企業都很少的所以我們希望看到更加完善根據前瞻性的碳費政策規劃兩萬五千公噸的免費額一個一場一場一場一場你如果是20個場的五十萬噸的免費額了啦所以這對大財團、大企業都非常優利啦不說三百塊啦一檔票二十塊到十塊而已啦大多少啦"},{"start":16571.407,"end":16572.728,"text":"謝謝林淑根委員發言,接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":16599.966,"end":16624.842,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請部長請彭部長彭委員好部長好部長我想每個委員都一中心常講但我們不希望變狗肺火車但更希望是政府要拿出實際的作為真的來推動節能減碳的部分那我先請教一下在上禮拜千呼萬喚使出來這個碳費費率的時候我先看到一個新聞"},{"start":16625.963,"end":16646.124,"text":"臺中經發局這邊有講是說中火因為它是排碳大戶所以說以換算它的排碳量來講的話它應該預計要繳15億的一個碳費但後來大家又講是說這個規則其實臺電所謂的我們的排碳大戶不管是藍煤電廠、燃氣電廠這個排碳大戶它本身制"},{"start":16648.466,"end":16649.767,"text":"臺中火力發電廠最大的藍莓發電廠本席選區林口火力發電廠三部機組也是藍莓發電廠"},{"start":16672.538,"end":16699.353,"text":"上一次在同一個地點委員會的時候我也跟你請教過如果說環境部沒有一個強而有力的一個目標政策的話沒有辦法引導或沒有辦法導正錯誤的能源政策啊當國際趨勢都是減碳2035年不再使用藍煤藍煤來發電結果我們國家還是背道而馳我們還是一樣火力發電要嘛藍煤要嘛藍氣那我只想請教如果依照這樣子的公式出來的話"},{"start":16700.748,"end":16717.015,"text":"中火他預計他要繳多少的碳費?大概九千多萬九千多萬?對,他是整個是台電一起在繳對,九千多萬,不到一億九千多萬對比他一整整個台電不管人家講說虧損千億或者是說他每天發電要千億他根本"},{"start":16718.001,"end":16741.996,"text":"報告委員,他其實...飛水車薪啊!所以他根本沒有...你這樣的話你根本沒有打算...沒有辦法有具體的方向去讓台電也去思考是說他是不是應該要符合國際趨勢潮流沒有,報告委員我們還是持續要擁抱火力發電中火如果按照他原來的這個排碳量的話大概要繳到6億如果他很努力做減碳的話最低最低可以繳到1億多"},{"start":16743.217,"end":16761.95,"text":"所以其實他這個就是他願意來做的一個動力那整個台電來說的話他如果完全不做任何事情那他大概要繳到21億那如果很努力做的話大概是5億所以剛剛我們幾個委員都講啦但我的重點在於是我們的排碳大戶最大宗是不是能源的部分"},{"start":16762.563,"end":16762.823,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16781.695,"end":16799.054,"text":"開個巧門啊 開個後門啊他的發電量不用有任何的一個碳費的一個徵收就是他反正他攔多少沒發的電攔多少氣發的電他跟所謂的碳費完全沒有相關那這樣子我們有辦法來抑制我們所謂的排碳大戶嗎"},{"start":16801.449,"end":16826.819,"text":"他是使用他自己的排碳在台灣台電的排碳就不會影響到我們的空汙就不會影響到我們的這個溫室效益他有辦法因為你不算他的錢你不算他的碳費他就不會影響到整個環境不可能嘛所以說其實我們就變成是我們悶在這個土地上就以為沒有收這個碳費以為就看不到"},{"start":16828.476,"end":16854.055,"text":"沒有 報告委員 這個其實涵蓋了我們是涵蓋了54%喔不是只有台電而已喔部長 我可以再請教如果說有很多人講是說我們現在有A、B費率然後還有說如果說完全沒有的話就是一般費率啦那不管是300或是40、150那假設他有申請了但是實際上他沒有做這樣的一個部分"},{"start":16855.155,"end":16870.642,"text":"誰能夠來去做集合我們的集合環境部我們的集合組會有一個小組來做集合我們的人力有多少我們人力現在大概是90位但是我們現在會增加人力來推動做這個事情覺得有辦法去抓因為我相信"},{"start":16871.442,"end":16899.405,"text":"一般的這個企業如果說這樣看出來有300、有50、有100可以來申請那可能大家都會希望申請是最低的那我們之後我們的集合要怎麼做因為我們看到現在公平會有一個新聞是說如果票率最重罰2500萬對不對票率你最重罰2500萬但是公平會也好或是環境部也好環境部的罰單會有多少"},{"start":16900.308,"end":16928.697,"text":"他要補繳這個碳費他只是補繳所以如果沒抓到他就逃過他沒有任何的罰還他沒有任何的加重處分這個碳費是一塊一塊就跟你的稅是一樣的是但我的意思說如果說對沒有錯我的意思說如果說他今天他申請那沒有沒有辦法去激增到勒我們就要回溯之前的全部要繳回來那有沒有加重的一個機制"},{"start":16930.387,"end":16935.33,"text":"我們每年就是會去進行執行成果的查核那每一場都會查那按照現在的收費辦法的規定如果他有缺的這部分一定要補繳所以我們的人力"},{"start":16954.62,"end":16982.286,"text":"現在這樣就變成是說人力的部分是確實剛剛部長要講90位對那我們預計要多少位才夠我們就依照我們當然我們依照目前的人力當然這會結合就是現在的盤茶跟這個茶宴的這個地方政府環保環保局會不會一起進來最主要是我們的部分那我們會請地方政府來透過這個協助的這個茶廠的部分一起來進行嗯哼好所以人力的規劃"},{"start":16983.186,"end":16983.907,"text":"最後一分鐘我給大家看一個畫面"},{"start":16998.769,"end":17014.027,"text":"有嗎?有照片嗎?沒有照片?好沒有照片沒關係我只要說啊因為本席上禮拜有收到也有公家機關啊我就不講哪個機關了他說基層同仁真的很辛苦為什麼這樣講這個"},{"start":17016.479,"end":17044.945,"text":"大家傳出來說要節能減碳所以說呢有公家機關直接在辦公室裡面自製降溫工具冰桶裡水桶裡面裝冰塊電風扇裡面加冰塊然後再往前吹啊我說這他那個畫面就是一個水桶裡面放大冰塊然後電風扇吹啊我說不知道我以為是在廟口廟會你知道嗎好像戶外廟會那個降溫啊但沒想到他是我們其中真的是中華民國"},{"start":17046.865,"end":17060.57,"text":"現在此時此刻的公家機關在辦公室裡面那我們又對比看到說明年的部會電費又每一個部會總統府也暴增600多萬監察院暴增100多萬行政院暴增300多萬"},{"start":17062.878,"end":17083.222,"text":"我們真的想講是說環境部當然這可能跟還是一樣能源的一個部分但我真的講是說當我們看到上級單位冷氣該吹還是吹辦公室還是涼結果反而我們基層的第一線同仁基層的公務同仁需要用這個自製冰塊自製降溫工具我為他們感到不捨部長"},{"start":17087.202,"end":17087.222,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":17116.869,"end":17117.049,"text":"結名檢探"},{"start":17146.122,"end":17161.209,"text":"剛剛鴻夢凱委員說有人自製冰塊冰塊、冰水吹我其實覺得最應該檢討的就是立法院立法院的冷氣太強了大家坐在這邊不冷嗎?"},{"start":17165.349,"end":17183.695,"text":"這個就是我覺得我們討論一個這樣子的議題然後冷氣其實我也一直覺得官員來立法院是不是就是把尊重放在心裡不用放在衣著上"},{"start":17184.855,"end":17186.036,"text":"官員為了要"},{"start":17201.616,"end":17213.705,"text":"要表示尊重,所以穿著西裝打著領帶那民意機關為了待客所以必須要把冷氣降下來配合你們這個我一直覺得"},{"start":17218.228,"end":17234.515,"text":"我們就是要減少碳台然後要減少公家的開支應該從我們自己本身做起才對這個立法院其實也不只委員會就是包括辦公室也一樣冷氣都強到不行"},{"start":17236.533,"end":17247.753,"text":"好部長我們因為你們碳費的收費標準已經有了決議好那我們徵收碳費呢其實就是"},{"start":17250.937,"end":17270.424,"text":"預計與爭我們的目的是要減少溫室氣體的排放來源對嗎?這樣子的概念沒錯那所以我今天還是跟部長來討論一下就我們有分階段的管制目標可是一直是"},{"start":17273.288,"end":17285.556,"text":"好像沒有很完全的落實我們在第一階段我們是減量希望能夠減量百分之相對於2005的基準年現在基準年都是2005我們第一個階段我們希望減少2%可是我們並沒有達標"},{"start":17293.962,"end":17312.816,"text":"那第二階段第二階段就是什麼時候呢就是從2021到2025我們的目標是要減降10%那我這邊的資料是只有到2022大概相比較大概只有減了1.77"},{"start":17316.36,"end":17338.236,"text":"有2024的資料嗎?還沒有,那個通常會有一兩年的差距那還沒有的話,部長你接下來只剩下一年多怎麼跟各部會去做協調讓有效的來降低溫室氣的排放量,達到第二階段的目標"},{"start":17339.336,"end":17363.585,"text":"報告委員這個議題是總統跟院長整個行政團隊都非常關心的議題所以我們現在其實的確我們受到一個新的壓力正在規劃盤點各個部會那有的部會的確是比較慢的比較不積極我們也主動說可不可以更積極一點所以等於是說的確行政院內部各個部會正在討論要設定一個新的目標那我也必須說由下而上"},{"start":17364.105,"end":17364.425,"text":"三期的的的"},{"start":17383.01,"end":17402.256,"text":"溫室氣體階段管制目標其實必須要在實施前兩年提出也就是說今年必須要提出那不知道氣候署這邊有沒有辦法如期在年底提出各位報告我們現在正在努力當中年底可以提出嗎"},{"start":17403.87,"end":17417.015,"text":"一定要提出阿就是說如果照原先的規劃數字都不會太好看阿我們希望真的努力啦再努力啦所以原先的規劃你們是預估減量20到28就是24加減1啦203024加減1啦這個數字不漂亮阿"},{"start":17426.072,"end":17436.396,"text":"就是希望能夠有再漂亮一點我們想像上不漂亮不過要達成很困難所以我們應該要更"},{"start":17438.874,"end":17459.297,"text":"更實際一點啦就是說我了解部長的意思部長覺得24加減1這個目標不夠好看不過我現在從我們過去已經兩期了第二期已經也只剩下一點時間了就是我們的"},{"start":17460.663,"end":17478.931,"text":"我們實際的減碳量並沒有辦法達到我們預估的目標啦所以我覺得就是不一定要鎖定在當然可以讓數據很漂亮然後又可以達到這個是"},{"start":17480.091,"end":17504.734,"text":"是最高的追求方向,假如沒有的話,我覺得還是以實際的怎麼加速碳排的減量,這個才是重點好不好?方委員那個有一點真的很辛苦,例如說以立法院要減量來說的話,我們現在五天上班嘛,那就有一天不要吹冷氣,都不要開燈就這樣,這樣多痛苦啊!"},{"start":17505.294,"end":17533.468,"text":"這個對於大家各行各業要檢視真的很辛苦所以我們現在各個部位的確我們很努力在找一些新的方法一些創新的方式來做這個事情這個當然部長跟執行團隊的困境企業的困境其實大家都可以想像不過就是面對一個新的課題大家總是要找到一個一條可以解決的方法"},{"start":17534.833,"end":17555.035,"text":"還有一個就是臺電的估算AI的發展會增加未來用電的需求那這個勢必會影響到第3期的溫室氣體階段管制目標你們會氣候署這邊會把這個因素一起納入"},{"start":17556.295,"end":17556.695,"text":"主席我找一下經濟部"},{"start":17590.262,"end":17597.526,"text":"部長請坐部長我這邊問一個有關產業的問題我不知道我們經濟部這邊對於產業界的所有的國家平均"},{"start":17619.193,"end":17646.181,"text":"韓碳量的調查目前有沒有進度?還是我們已經啟動了沒有?因為歐盟的碳邊境調整紀錄就是CBAN課徵除了實際韓碳量以及設計韓碳量以外為了要因應中小企業的困境所以他還提供了第三種選擇就是國家平均韓碳量對不對?"},{"start":17647.542,"end":17656.949,"text":"跟委員報告我們臺灣的做法是國家排放清澈那這部分是由環境部這邊在整個在是環境部在做處理我"},{"start":17658.905,"end":17684.442,"text":"我想說這個跟中小企業...那之前是以那個排放2.5萬噸會花比較久的一點時間那這個清澈都會放在網路上面那經濟部這邊負責什麼?經濟部這邊主要是針對產業的一些輔導機制那在更早之前就是協助產業做先期減碳這一些相關的工作就是協助減碳那..."},{"start":17689.863,"end":17708.663,"text":"我的意思是說歐盟之所以會創設出國家平均的含碳量其實最主要是因應中小企業他可能規模比較小所以他要測自己產品的含碳量有比較困難創出來的嘛 對不對"},{"start":17709.344,"end":17731.418,"text":"那不管是環境部也好,經濟部也好,我覺得我們,因為台灣還是有很多中小企業嘛,還是必須要盡可能的站在你們的職權上,盡量加以輔導跟協助啦,好不好?好,謝謝署長,謝謝委員,謝謝主席。謝謝楊耀委員。"},{"start":17744.604,"end":17744.944,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":17756.674,"end":17782.472,"text":"黃委員好部長好部長我從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都非常的關心這個可能有史以來衛環委員會第一次這麼多委員幾乎到目前為止都沒有人跳過就是直接有登記一定來質詢那就表示說這個議題是大家非常關心的那我在基層其實我也聽到很多就是說一般你現在是針對500就是500個廠"},{"start":17785.154,"end":17787.095,"text":"明年開始申報明年1月1日開始開針後年才要繳錢"},{"start":17806.363,"end":17834.177,"text":"其實在地方有一些我講的是這個中小企業那他們有的是有把他們的產品銷到國外去或者是銷到歐盟去那其實他們對這個政府要徵收碳費其實他們也有很多意見那剛剛我有看到就是說環境部也有針對這個有到地方去開說明會那劉建國委員有特別提到就是說地方政府開說明會的時候或者是跟溝通"},{"start":17835.017,"end":17862.784,"text":"跟地方政府好像這個是缺法的所以我也希望就是說希望這個環境部能夠針對地方政府的這個部分應該要再去做一個加強可能就是去做跟地方政府可能要有一些溝通因為有時候民眾的疑問他第一時間他應該是打到地方政府去詢問所以如果說地方政府你們應該也要讓他有這樣的一個觀念跟概念"},{"start":17865.685,"end":17874.63,"text":"中小企業解決一些問題當然環境部跟經濟部的立場是有點不一樣環境部當然希望整個排碳的部分能夠減少經濟部對於你們提出來的碳費徵收的"},{"start":17889.699,"end":17915.572,"text":"這個價格可能會覺得說不太合理或者覺得太高那當然這個兩個立場不一樣我們可以理解那我想請教就是說未來就是說我們現在都已經定下來了那環境部跟經濟部如果說你們的立場不一樣的話那你們怎麼去溝通說服對方那讓經濟部也要去說服基層這些廠商你就是要誠實誠實來"},{"start":17919.376,"end":17927.632,"text":"來報這個這個碳費或誠實來申報應該是你們環境部跟經濟部應該要如果說整個立場是不一樣的話那你們怎麼溝通"},{"start":17928.943,"end":17949.554,"text":"報告委員其實如果說不一樣的話其實這個是我們彼此要互相的溝通妥協那我也特別感謝經濟部在這段過程給我們很大的支持不然的話其實這個制度是真的走不下去的所以這段過程我也真的非常謝謝經濟部也容忍很多所以其實我是覺得這個部分委員你點到一個重點"},{"start":17949.994,"end":17975.243,"text":"那未來呢我也會跟這真的因為我們現在其實跟他們在很多減碳的機制是連協同作戰的所以這個部分我們會強化這個溝通那當然啦這個我也很尊重這個經濟部的意見因為他們有產業的壓力那我們也有環團的壓力那我們是政府是一體的所以其實我們未來會密切的再溝通這個因為楊署長其實我們也是長久的夥伴在各種方面我們會以後會多加溝通"},{"start":17976.144,"end":17991.204,"text":"對,就是說我們看到這個碳費拍板之後那經濟部的立場跟你們的立場是完全不一樣而且是媒體直接寫出來那這個完全不一樣的情況之下那你們未來要推動就是應該"},{"start":17992.446,"end":18009.536,"text":"就是經濟部你要去面對的是所有的廠家那環境部你面對的是所有的這個也許是環團那大家關心這個環境的這些這些人士那你們要怎麼樣達到一個平衡點那另外就是說明年開始申報那2026年開始開徵這個碳費"},{"start":18013.258,"end":18038.609,"text":"所以如果能夠順利的話如果能夠順利就照這個部長講的可能就是一年可以有60億的這個碳費那當然如果說這個廠商他是要銷到他的產品是要銷到這個歐盟的話其實我覺得他會很樂意來配合政府的這樣的一個政策那如果說不是的話也許會有推動也許會有一些困難"},{"start":18039.929,"end":18068.148,"text":"所以我覺得說應該對於你們跟地方的地方政府也好或者是你們其實我在之前薛部長的時候我就一直提到希望能夠跟地方要有充分的溝通因為很多人還不太清楚另外甚至還有人問我就是說他原本有一塊地然後上面原本就已經有種樹了那這個是不是可以抵啊所以我覺得說一般的民眾也不是那麼清楚"},{"start":18069.809,"end":18084.582,"text":"地方政府應該你們要讓他知道這個整個狀況那因為民眾很多他是直接打到地方政府去詢問是不是可以請部長在短期之內趕快進速跟地方政府可能有一些座談會或一些說明會"},{"start":18085.562,"end":18108.576,"text":"謝謝委員因為我們台灣有很多隱形冠軍那個隱形到我有時候問我們的同仁都找不到所以未來也希望委員在彰化因為彰化是台灣的隱形大冠軍的總部所以我也看委員能不能幫我們的忙等於是說找到那些隱形冠軍出來因為他們其實有些我們可能經濟部的數據不見得都有所以我們把那個找出來我們有一個很好的座談"},{"start":18109.156,"end":18132.764,"text":"那因為歐盟的問題出口是很重要的例如說螺絲螺帽業、扣件業甚至很多特別的業其實他們的輔導幫忙所以我未來環境部我會派一個人到歐盟去有一組人來去做協調我這個協調不是為了說碳費多少而已而是說這個未來的螺絲螺帽業它在進出口的時候這個都需要一些氣候上的探權的談判"},{"start":18133.864,"end":18154.101,"text":"這個我希望可以幫到他們的忙所以我們環境部會積極的做那這個未來也會跟這個經濟部一起協同作戰那剛剛也有特別提到就是說你們針對這個收碳費或者是碳盤查可能你們環境部這邊人員這樣總共是多少人?現在90個人左右那90個人目前來講這樣是夠嗎?不夠那不夠你們未來要怎麼辦?"},{"start":18159.765,"end":18177.294,"text":"第一個是我們有爭取一些約聘的人力然後有些需要一些委外的人力來去做辦理那當然啦其實現在的人才工部門的預算人才這個薪水是很困難的所以未來我們還會再想一些辦法因為現在的同仁都很辛苦都是靠著使命來做啦"},{"start":18182.138,"end":18195.308,"text":"前面有委員講說你們身為環境部之後的預算是不增反減那如果說你剛剛講的這個人力不足的話目前90個人那人力不足的話那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":18196.249,"end":18199.651,"text":"委員會主動希望在後年的預算能夠有一些顯著的增長,也希望委員可以給我們支持或是指教。"},{"start":18220.965,"end":18247.637,"text":"所以我是覺得說部長你應該要去爭取就是說我們明年開始這個碳費開始申報那2026年要徵收那我是覺得你應該可以以這樣的一個跟行政院這邊應該去爭取爭取經費下來那你要有足夠的人力啊要不然你有這麼多事情要做那你人力不足的話其實我覺得你要推動真的確實會很困難對"},{"start":18249.558,"end":18269.139,"text":"那像這個的話,地方政府需要配合什麼嗎?他需要配合第一個是,未來這些知識地方政府也需要跟我們協同去參與這個討論或是參與這個調查,這個都是要中央跟地方,特別是環保局的單位,所以我們像這個是第一步,我們也昨天第一個發布的是給各縣市環保局局長"},{"start":18269.679,"end":18270.119,"text":"希望有更明確的窗口來進行討論"},{"start":18290.522,"end":18315.268,"text":"部長你在明年的預算上面應該要增加的還是要增加我們在這個委員會從環保署變成環境部結果預算不增反減這是一件很荒謬的事情我相信你們只要編出來委員會會支持的"},{"start":18327.972,"end":18341.26,"text":"接下來請黃建豪委員發言主席好 那我先請這個彭部長"},{"start":18344.868,"end":18357.042,"text":"黃委員好部長好陳儒剛剛我們黃委員所說的這個今天大家都非常關心這個碳費的問題那手一開始想先一個部長就叫現在這定價每噸頭真的大企業是每噸300塊嗎這個不怎麼折衝出來的這個數字"},{"start":18361.768,"end":18386.686,"text":"這個是考量到國際的行情然後還有各方面願意接受的結果那我也必須坦承說各方面不見得都很滿意但是這個是一個當中又可以接受的數字部長因為前面幾位委員之前我有聽到一開始早上的時候大家有問就是你已經去拜會過這些第一階段要被徵收碳費的這些企業了那他們是不是對這300元都樂意的來"},{"start":18389.688,"end":18410.619,"text":"對這300塊他們是接受的嗎?對目前第一階段的這些企業?其實當中很多的企業他內部的碳定價已經有1000塊、1000塊到3000塊的都有所以其實前面的20%大的公司他佔了排碳量的這54%的八成其實他內部碳定價他的減碳計畫他們都接受的所以"},{"start":18411.099,"end":18426.983,"text":"有沒有想過一件事情是這件事情我擔心是什麼因為今天定300塊這件事情我們擔心的是道德風險啊就是說有一些企業當然優良企業沒問題嘛台積電他可能願意去買綠電好一些比較前面台灣比較前面的企業他會願意但是很多製造業他可能他寧願付這個300塊"},{"start":18430.034,"end":18459.286,"text":"因為他去更新設備的這個費用遠遠不及這300塊啊遠遠超過300塊啊那遇到這問題的話環境部有什麼對策報告委員其實這個部分因為未來的費率全世界都一樣會逐漸往上走的除非他的這個東西他製造的東西是不出口也沒有任何的這個影響或是說企業沒有未來因為現在氣候變遷是每個企業都必須放在裡面很心上轉型的一個關鍵所以多數的企業都知道這樣的問題雖然很痛但是他願意去轉型"},{"start":18460.146,"end":18483.736,"text":"當然我也不排除有些企業是很傳產的轉不過去的現在我們也跟經濟部希望能夠幫這些企業的忙確實有的所以現在這些那錢幾大我們現在提到第一階段就好你現在第一階段等於示範嘛對針對這些我們比較錢比較好的這些公司他們等於示範作用你這個300所謂的每頓300元超過部分你們確定能夠徵收的徵收的到嗎收的到嗎這筆錢大家都願意付這個錢"},{"start":18486.897,"end":18515.617,"text":"其實徵收錢是每個人都不心甘情願就跟繳稅一樣但是這個還是必須要來進行做這個事那我們因為環境部過去已經有收過空屋費了所以這些的企業也大概都必須有繳納過空屋費我們也有過這樣的經驗所以也請委員放心好部長謝謝因為其實我們還在擔心這個道德風險問題是可能後續在執行面上等到正式上路可能還是要觀察一下甚至我覺得你們應該去比較一下就到底這個企業就是說有沒有貧困報告"},{"start":18517.017,"end":18535.003,"text":"企業花錢去提升他的設備來減碳跟他每年去支付所謂的碳費他的比例是什麼對企業的對企業影響什麼這可能是你們或經濟部應該要去請他們提出相關的說明跟報告因為這樣子你才能知道說到底我訂這個300塊對於所謂大企業來講是真的有影響的還是他寧願"},{"start":18536.403,"end":18560.044,"text":"就是我剛剛提到的,他寧願繼續把這個錢繳掉,就像是這個贖罪券,就是我就把錢付掉就好,反正就像罰單一樣嘛,我就付掉,但是我的設備我沒辦法花幾千萬或幾億去更新嘛,好這是笨,我覺得這個還是要精算一下啦,部長可以嗎?可以啊,這個企業其實他都有自己內部的減碳目標啦,大多數企業都知道要進行轉型,所以其實站到他的目標,搭配我們碳費做,會加速他的進行啦。"},{"start":18560.504,"end":18584.458,"text":"好,再來這個針對中小企業部分,我想因為中部也是真的是我們非常多傳產業者在擔心,雖然第一階段沒有他們的事,但是我想後續他們遲早要面對的。這個中小企業想佔台灣的比例非常非常高,佔全體企業98%,那後續對於這個中小企業這個部分的話,我想問一下環境部對於到底這個費用跟他後續的,還要補助嗎?還是輔導?還是要怎麼做?這部分。"},{"start":18584.718,"end":18584.838,"text":"現在不用擔心"},{"start":18601.818,"end":18626.31,"text":"現在不用擔心當然減碳是全世界的這個義務減碳是一種壓力但是它也是一個轉型的這個機會所以其實我們也感謝很多的企業它自主性的去做例如說它會推出一些近年的產品或是企業有更好的形象來做已經有很多企業這樣做但是我也特別請還沒有進入的企業也可以趕快去學習但是不要那麼的急著去很憂慮很憂慮然後等於是會走腫了沒有騎乘嗎對於中小企業的部分"},{"start":18626.65,"end":18633.975,"text":"目前我們大概是2.5萬噸,然後慢慢的可能往下減。我們兩年會檢討一次,就兩年檢討一次。所以現有的中小企業大概兩年會開始面,預估是兩年後會面臨到?要看它的排碳量,例如說我們現在2.5萬噸,接下來2萬或是1萬5,慢慢的往下降。"},{"start":18647.904,"end":18666.622,"text":"部長最後因為我時間到我外委會的時間比較少但是我還是要給你這個提醒因為這個中小企業衝擊會最大因為你剛剛提到就算他們很積極的現在去做減碳的工作但是因為依照我們現行的法令這個碳費還是會有這個電廠的發電這個碳費的收取還是要有使用者來負擔嘛"},{"start":18667.483,"end":18692.858,"text":"那也就是中小企業它的電、它的來源它就是火力發電它就是我們現在的不管是天然氣也好或煤炭也好就是我們整個能源政策裡面80%如果都是使用所謂的這個火力發電它在怎麼減碳它的產品它終究它會還是有碳的問題嗎所以這部分的話我不知道環境部的立場是什麼你有沒有機會跟經濟部去討論說怎麼樣去降低企業在面對這種電力電力的間接排放的問題嗎要怎麼處理"},{"start":18693.939,"end":18720.157,"text":"報告委員其實這是一個轉型的過程我們過去從燃煤很高然後到燃氣轉煤等於是從煤轉氣然後慢慢的氣也是一個過渡慢慢到綠電或是更種新型態的能源這都是一個過程其實現在的排氮係數是在往下走當中80%都是燒這個慢慢大家定義不太一樣經濟慢慢可能不是兩年因為你剛剛說到中長期可能兩年後就要面對這個慢慢的問題所以我不知道台灣的"},{"start":18721.098,"end":18722.078,"text":"黃建豪委員發言何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在賴慧媛委員發言"},{"start":18744.084,"end":18769.855,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長,還有我們經濟部產業發展署署長,楊署長。好,賴委員好。是,部長、署長午安。我想,那個,因為我們是很後段的一個質詢,那也聽到了很多委員的一個建議。那在這裡我想請教部長,就是說昨天宣布的一個碳費,就是收費的一個標準,每一噸300塊。"},{"start":18771.716,"end":18797.395,"text":"那環團也不滿意業者也不滿意經濟部也不滿意為什麼會造成這麼多的單位的不滿意呢?部長因為這個事情是要收錢大家都不會滿意的啦就跟繳稅一樣啦最好不要繳啦大家最開心啦但是這個是必須要跟國際接軌所以環團跟這個業界的這個心聲其實我們都聽到了但是這個是一個大家不滿意但是又可以接受的數字啦"},{"start":18797.455,"end":18818.491,"text":"所以是不甘願可是又不情不厭那可是是可以接受的那我想在這裡跟部長再做一個探討就是說碳費的收費的定期的一個檢討我覺得這個裡頭你剛才有講到了就是說250萬噸針對的中小企業你是兩年定期的檢討一次是不是"},{"start":18819.352,"end":18843.01,"text":"那如果你這個氣候變遷因應法裡頭的28條第一項到第三項你又講到了就是說碳費的徵收費用是由中央主管機關所設定的這個審議委員會那就是審議了那送中央主管機關來核定公告定期檢討那到底你這個定期的檢討是多久檢討一次"},{"start":18844.023,"end":18868.321,"text":"我們其實每年都會檢討,但是政策要有一定的穩定性,大概是兩年會調一次兩年會調一次,那兩年調的一個局劇也是300塊嗎?不會不會,應該其實這個到最後都要接軌國際啦要接軌國際,那就是看國際怎麼走,那像歐美他在2026他就是他已經上場了,那上場的對在這個上場的過程裡頭,那個都當機囉"},{"start":18880.609,"end":18887.193,"text":"好主席那個暫停喔我們的電腦全部當機時間先暫停"},{"start":18911.445,"end":18934.979,"text":"好,再下一頁。好,主席,我們接著再下一頁。那,對,好,那,部長,如果用碳匯的輔導各個產業的一個減碳,那我們從裡頭,你,就是說你會加大的那個減碳的一個力道的一個輔導的資源,在這裡寫得很清楚,你跟經濟部跟環境部,你們裡頭講到了,經濟部他講的是輔導的一個措施,"},{"start":18938.641,"end":18963.787,"text":"那環境部講的是碳費收入的一個專款專用這個定格的非常的清楚可是如果我們這樣子來看它的話政府好像是有點過路財神啊這個把錢從這個經濟部搬到環境部這個要怎麼解釋呢事實上就是說很多委員在質疑就是你的收費標準已經是太低了那我們知道就是說"},{"start":18964.987,"end":18965.247,"text":"這還是很多人會覺得太貴了"},{"start":18981.254,"end":18981.394,"text":"國內高耗能產業"},{"start":19008.84,"end":19009.28,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19037.836,"end":19062.277,"text":"高耗能的產業它對國家的經濟是有重大的貢獻那就像陳儒署長講的就是說是不是讓產業留一些錢讓他去做他的產業的一個轉型這裡我特別要提到的就是跟部長跟署長提到的就是說畜牧業也需要減碳的一個輔導部長在所有的你這個產業裡頭你有沒有納入畜牧業"},{"start":19063.394,"end":19079.212,"text":"報告委員,其實畜牧業雖然有排放這些甲烷,但是其實把它收集在一起,它還是可以發電的。我們現在正在研議這樣的措施,但是也要請委員多幫忙,因為我們的畜牧業分散非常的廣,"},{"start":19079.873,"end":19086.757,"text":"所以就是說部長我在這裡特別請教你就是說對於畜牧業的一個減碳的一個輔導是不是有跟農業部進行就是多次的這個研擬譬如說我們讓牛就是說因為他牛如果在飼料裡頭吃有一些紅棗的一個"},{"start":19109.668,"end":19135.632,"text":"施料的話他就比較不會打嗝啊不打嗝的話他就減少排放出甲烷這些我們其實都知道就是說養豬也是一樣啊豬的一個分量你剛剛就特別提到了就是豬也是可以讓他產生了一個早氣齁低塞齁產生了一個早氣那就是不知道就是說在這個畜牧產業的一個減碳的一個輔導是不是有一些有計劃性的一個推動"},{"start":19136.752,"end":19152.704,"text":"我們現在在爭取保險業的預算其實我們希望找這個變成一個民間可以投資的機會除了民間的投資以外我們公務部門我想希望你們也有一些計畫我希望就三個月內提出這一些計畫跟本席報告 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝賴會員、委員發言"},{"start":19159.144,"end":19166.008,"text":"葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員、葉淵芝委員不在陳穎委員發言麻煩請彭部長還有循環署賴署長賴署長"},{"start":19189.106,"end":19211.473,"text":"在這個光輝十月我們的這個國慶日這個普天同慶的日子但是這個雲林有一家的資收廠有一位16年資歷的這個勞工摔進了這個機器裡面他的上半身是被絞碎的然後下半身是被打包起來的"},{"start":19213.168,"end":19242.268,"text":"這個死狀是非常的淒慘這樣子的一個公安事件那部長這個新聞你有關注嗎有我有看到那我想為了協助推動這個循環經濟的這個國家重大政策勞動部在上個月13日同意環境部的這個無工廠登記證資源化產業開放移工目前呢已經列管的這個資收廠總共有600多家相信在日後可能也會越來越多啦"},{"start":19242.748,"end":19271.562,"text":"他只是說這個當下本國勞工的這個工作環境已經差成這樣子那未來在引進外籍勞工的時候本席是會擔心就是說恐怕會有這個更差的這個狀況那環境部就是花了蠻多的經費在辦展覽但是對於這些特別是剛剛也提到這些這個資收業者的工作環境和安全衛生的問題卻關心的比例是非常失衡的"},{"start":19272.122,"end":19289.768,"text":"所以因為環境部大概督查的這個對象大部分都是大廠還有這個模範廠那接下來呢環境部會編列數百億來補助這些廠商來做這個淨零碳排還有綠色成長所以本期是要求說"},{"start":19291.108,"end":19317.225,"text":"部長你對於針對這些這個資收業者的處理及這個處理業者的這個挹注的資源的協助然後還有你要協助他們這些廠商來做這些危險老舊機械的汰換還有環境安全衛生以及勞動條件的提升然後來建構這個完善的循環經濟的政策目標部長我以上建議你能不能採納然後可以做到"},{"start":19318.446,"end":19335.804,"text":"謝偉其實淨零碳排裡面資源循環是裡面一個很重大的推手所以我其實淨零裡面我要爭取的經費或是各項的資金其實都把循環經濟這種資源循環這種回收的把它放進去那這個細節關於這個案例是不是請我署長再做一個回覆"},{"start":19337.176,"end":19342.438,"text":"那另外就是對於加強這個回收處理業我們也辦一些講習還有訓練好我想就以這個案例做為一個警惕好 那個賴署長請回座接下來我另外再請那個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":19369.141,"end":19389.168,"text":"那目前環境部已經針對這個碳費徵收的這個三項執法制定完成那表示說碳排放減少的方向已經就比較逐漸的在明朗化比較明確了那也有專屬的網頁說明這是一件好事啦只是說因為我在看這個網頁齁就是一看就是看到這個師師開講可不可以"},{"start":19392.625,"end":19420.796,"text":"部長你可不可以解釋一下為什麼叫施施開獎施施有兩種因為我們施政是一個有名的這個國際貿易法的專家、探權的專家所以這個是我特別因為我們環境部公關費不多就特別請他來幫忙做這樣宣導那我也替大家謝謝你那只是說如果今天是換人他沒有在這個位置做這個工作換人開獎的時候那要叫什麼"},{"start":19421.536,"end":19428.354,"text":"彭斯嗎?還是...好的我...這是一個短期的啦,就短期碳費的,你會不會很長期?"},{"start":19430.004,"end":19441.849,"text":"我們的詩詩可以先回座只是因為體力需要這樣子在今天的專案報告前的詩詩開講是已經有講就是說收費的281家有500間工廠左右這個排放的碳量大約有155百萬公噸的二氧化碳當量"},{"start":19452.573,"end":19466.25,"text":"這個呢 佔全國排放總量的54%那是不是表示說我們台灣一年的總碳排的總碳排是換算大概是287百萬公噸是這樣沒錯嗎對 沒錯沒錯"},{"start":19469.213,"end":19490.508,"text":"那接下來我要請教部長就是說因為目前我們大概只是好像只是關注這個碳費要如何徵收所以在各個產業似乎只有那281家他們應該是最在意的公司可是呢這個歐盟跟英國他也會在2026年還有2027年來透過這個CBAN的制度來徵收碳稅"},{"start":19494.711,"end":19510.349,"text":"環境部你們有沒有評估過說還有哪些企業有可能會受到衝擊還有這樣的狀況應該要如何因應因為畢竟這整個來說這個時間是非常有限的特別是就是說排放量不足2.5萬噸的這個製造業的廠商"},{"start":19515.294,"end":19542.296,"text":"在確定台灣政府不會徵收的前提之下那未來會不會被歐盟或者其他的經濟體來徵稅或者收費有沒有這樣可能?其實第一個是我們的這個2.5未來會往下調這是確定的兩年調整一次那第二個是因為減碳是國際上一定要碳定價是國際的趨勢所以基本上如果他未來任何的企業他只要想外銷的話"},{"start":19542.836,"end":19565.309,"text":"都有必須要被課到碳費稅的可能性存在所以其實這個都必須要做的啦好所以就比較不會有我剛剛擔心的那些問題對其實要逐步的就是說如果這個企業是內銷型的他當然影響比較小那如果他要出口到國際上的他當然就有一定的壓力所以要提早佈局就是這個的由來啦"},{"start":19566.049,"end":19590.043,"text":"我另外要提一個問題就是說你們用詞你們環境部用詞的問題在你們的這個事實開講有講到就是114年114年的開徵但是實際上我們都知道就是比如說我們今年114年如果申報那真正的時間是到115年的5月我們才需要繳交114年的費用這樣沒有錯"},{"start":19594.005,"end":19619.704,"text":"那到底什麼時候開始實行在你們報告第一段說中國已經開始實施碳費徵收那我要請教就是說他們現階段是申報還是已經在繳費了因為畢竟我們就是說雖然兩岸現況不是統一的但是環境部你們的用詞是必須要統一這樣才不會造成說國內業者的困擾"},{"start":19620.592,"end":19647.387,"text":"報告委員其實中國是用這個碳交易的制度針對電力業首先是電力業他也逐步的在跨他們很早就開始在4點大概在10多年前就開始進行了所以現在所以他們算是已經繳費了已經用碳交易就是跟我們一樣用碳交易的制度好再來就是我另外要請教的是一個技術的問題就是收費公式這個好"},{"start":19650.99,"end":19677.122,"text":"你們花了一點時間研究這個部分收費公式實際上涉及的是這個層面是非常專業那你們的這個高碳洩漏的行業定義是說要有這個碳排減量計劃的核定就可以有0.2的調整數值那是不是沒有核定通過的事業單位他就沒有0.2的調整"},{"start":19679.471,"end":19703.501,"text":"是這樣嗎?對好那未來而且你這個0.2你還有2期、3期、0.4、0.6所以未來會逐步做這樣子的調整嗎?所以看起來是折扣越來越少那這樣子本席的質疑是說這樣會達到鼓勵的效果嗎?還是你們特別這樣規劃是有什麼特別的考量跟意義?"},{"start":19704.642,"end":19719.567,"text":"跟委員報告 這個所謂高碳洩漏的行業我們是比照像歐盟或其他國家就是對一些比較貿易密集還有考慮到它的排放強度高的這些產業所以譬如說像我們現在國際間可能像鋼鐵水泥業因為這些產業它要減碳需要花比較長的時間所以我們有這樣一個轉型調整的一個0.2的係數"},{"start":19730.356,"end":19744.735,"text":"我知道啊但是你的二期三期是變0.4、0.6意思就是我打完兩折我一起我打兩折然後第二期我打四折第三期我打六折你折扣是越來越少那當然就是說"},{"start":19745.436,"end":19749.4,"text":"因為國際間對於這些高碳洩漏的行業它的免費的合併也會越來越少越來越嚴格"},{"start":19770.62,"end":19795.634,"text":"因為我理解我理解但是這同樣我會對國際這樣子的規定我也會有質疑嘛你們的給我的回覆只是因為國際這樣子定所以我就這樣定但是通常我們如果一般的邏輯要達到那個就是鼓勵的效果我們說欸你先做這樣我跟你打八折之後我你再做更好跟你六折你再做到很完美我跟你打兩折"},{"start":19797.14,"end":19822.882,"text":"但是但是只是說國際這樣子啊我們就這樣啊你你可不可以解釋幫我解釋解釋給我聽就是說那為什麼國際這樣子的計算是為什麼就是說這些產業他們一定要減碳只是一開始的時候我們希望說他可以有比較多的這些資金用在他自己的減碳但是未來他能夠受到的這個免費的就會越來越少他要趕快開始來做減碳"},{"start":19823.542,"end":19839.792,"text":"所以這跟我設想就是說希望母數到時候是降低的嗎?所以他到時候...我們沒有這樣講,我們是覺得是說他先給他一個比較大的優因,減得更多然後減得更多完了之後慢慢慢慢的減少"},{"start":19840.8,"end":19859.727,"text":"那你也可以維持阿就是我一直都打這樣的折扣阿沒有我只是拋出來因為你們很沒有你們講的很沒有說服力你們說國際怎麼樣就怎麼樣我們其實也可以有一些創舉如果他是對產業的檢探是好的你看我們的獅獅一直在點頭"},{"start":19862.006,"end":19879.293,"text":"有我看到了阿所以下回詩詩開講或許可以針對這個部分可以來講一下好不好因為我們不是國際怎麼樣我們就一定怎麼樣如果我們有更好的我們也可以走在國際的尖端阿我這樣講有沒有詩詩有沒有道理"},{"start":19882.505,"end":19904.562,"text":"謝謝 我也可以做一下陳詩嘛好不好那再來就是屬於這個非屬高碳洩漏風險行業好啦我跟你講我念音樂系我要看懂這個我真的花很多時間好嗎再來非屬這個高碳洩漏風險行業來最後講一下這個也就是2.5萬公噸的調整那麼在"},{"start":19907.944,"end":19922.65,"text":"你們未來這個2.5萬剛剛前面是不是有講到說可能也是會調整慢慢減就是慢慢減那但是我還有一個疑問就是說為什麼一樣是通過自主減量計畫的核定那他們卻沒有這個0.2的數值"},{"start":19926.175,"end":19933.778,"text":"因為我為什麼這樣問來做一下算數很簡單來誰誰部長你算給我聽3100萬我取平均這個500加除完之後就是3100萬這個平均值3100萬噸公噸減掉2.5萬公噸是多少29啊28點多28.5啊28.5百萬對啊"},{"start":19953.564,"end":19954.805,"text":"2.5萬公噸是佔多少?很低"},{"start":19975.762,"end":19998.921,"text":"很低多少我算好了我念給你聽啊百分之這是那個2.5萬除以31百萬是等於0.00008065這是皮毛吧我現在是套你們的公式去做就是數字套還是"},{"start":20001.099,"end":20020.714,"text":"這就是皮毛阿那我如果只是2.5萬我31百萬然後減掉2.5萬而已欸我為什麼還要花那麼多業者為什麼還要花那麼多力氣還有那麼多錢去寫這個減量的計畫我就不用那個2.5萬真的是超級皮毛的餒還是你們的2.5萬是2.5百萬你是有沒有少寫一個字"},{"start":20026.786,"end":20030.341,"text":"我真的花很多時間很認真在算這些東西啊"},{"start":20032.029,"end":20040.851,"text":"我剛講的都沒有錯嘛就是結論就是你這個優惠方案試算之後非高碳洩漏風險事業只是陪榜嘛那所以我才質疑說你們2.5萬是不是2.5百萬是不是寫錯阿如果沒有的話那就是"},{"start":20059.514,"end":20059.894,"text":"剪掉2.5萬也是很少啊?"},{"start":20080.985,"end":20109.817,"text":"好啦,你們大家好好算一算啦,如果它是一個非常明顯的數字,我們大家不會愣在這,好不好?好,謝謝陳英委員。非常抱歉,因為今天時間真的非常的久。那下次如果在立法院這邊的話,如果超過吃飯時間,就是希望部會直接把便當發下去,讓各個同仁能夠吃飯,要不然真的從12點到現在已經超過兩個小時了,真的非常的辛苦。"},{"start":20111.212,"end":20129.493,"text":"對阿好那接下來請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在好那我們今天的會議詢答全部結束委員賴會員、葉元芝委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定"},{"start":20130.153,"end":20142.497,"text":"報告及詢答完畢,委員質詢,未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆,委員另要求期限者從其所定。今天的會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":20175.328,"end":20175.548,"text":"主席"},{"start":20194.302,"end":20195.943,"text":"發了一個宣誓"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部就「台灣的碳費收費標準決議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:29:58 - 14:05:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}