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我請那個福林安全委員會的主委又請陳主委陳主委 您好我講 何樂威你有沒有問題跳舞啦 跳舞啦喔 很好 很好我是客人喔 沒有要跳舞沒問題啦齁沒問題沒問題啦好我請教你喔"},{"start":46.772,"end":48.574,"text":"在這個國際研究啊,我們現在一直在講這個SMR,這個小模型的負荷基礎啊,比較像小的國家,有擔保像個有貴的國家,你有沒有了解?有"},{"start":66.391,"end":72.435,"text":"大概有在爭奪的,差不多...委員,來,院長回答報告委員,現在國際上有在爭奪的主要是共產國家,大陸跟蘇聯,是海上的沒有在爭奪的,澳洲、日本、美國、國家,統計是2029年才開始,它2030年才開始"},{"start":96.806,"end":108.232,"text":"加拿大也有,英國,法國但是,大陸已經有在上傳了,俄羅斯,就剛才你說的這是我們沒辦法跟他們接觸,合作啦,我們是要民主的共贏人他們這算紅色的共贏人,所以我們要立場清澈這樣就很可惜了,因為另外"},{"start":126.089,"end":141.155,"text":"要AI 剛才中研議員說 要超級的勝率要AI 沒電 電沒電國家如果不在這裡投資 不要放大幣的資源如果要高雄高傑 實際 只能要放在這個應該放的地方大家都了解 尤其在這很多做研究的科學家"},{"start":155.675,"end":168.182,"text":"農澤現在AI的時代是一律前例今天沒做 明天就不會有了可惜我們的政府是西安的水培 金門培富齡發展從特赤時代到現在"},{"start":179.039,"end":190.885,"text":"今天我們吃米糕白吃了,當時是福利福森在研究的時候,第一次的談判那麼,如果不經過美國的專家跟你認定,不經過台灣的專家認定,怎麼可能會開發呢?後來,現在全世界,注意,這個福林電廠啊,全世界的台油都是在40年的使用年限"},{"start":206.681,"end":212.662,"text":"已經有處理煙壓 繼續最賺的大概有幾座 你知道嗎 兩幾個啊總共有四百多座核電廠取得研議的研議的有一百九十多座一百九十幾座 我們台灣一座都沒有要放在哪裡一家都沒有要放在哪裡各位鄉親 你想像一下"},{"start":238.012,"end":241.193,"text":"很可憐喔台灣有這麼好的科學家這麼安全的檢測專家台電在火火煮煮三小時在全世界火營運轉屏蔽到年來都是五名來因為我們不敢把這個火營電廠給營業這是很可惜的很可惜的我不知道你們對這個"},{"start":267.401,"end":275.323,"text":"核安會你有領略讓我們的婦人登場,如果要演繹,才安全檢測你們做得到嗎?核安會的職責就是核安,沒有核安就不會有核電,如果核安會"},{"start":289.406,"end":311.92,"text":"認為宇宙電廠有安全疑慮的話 我們會要停止檢查這我們沒有很模糊的疑慮現在我們的副官法已經通過 恰恕今天在台電當然民進黨執政的情形 它是一定不會啟動因為新珠牌的恢復零的加分所以我一直在稱讚你已經達到目標 你已經對民進黨的駒馬的高台階級了恢復零的加分5月17日已經達成了"},{"start":318.888,"end":329.091,"text":"有夠啊 越早啟動 台灣人民越早遞到幸福我們現在來說 他已經在頂檔了 我有說過李鴻二千年十月以前 他沒有說要重新啟動奮勇就對了我吃三碗牛肉麵給你看 羅總統喔 李鴻二千年十月以前我太了解他了 愛吃雞射魚 怕牌射 怕人家說"},{"start":348.916,"end":359.839,"text":"要比較明顯的 比較大方的已經19輩子的家庭就對世界的搞事情對所有民進黨的先行先行都會搞事情應該靠入2300萬人的幸福靠入台灣未來AI的發展沒電是要AI什麼 變AI不是AI我講的就是 你的單位有辦法今天如果是台電的提出"},{"start":378.496,"end":380.217,"text":"這本來就是核安會的職責能不能做到 你們有沒有能力做到"},{"start":404.33,"end":414.298,"text":"有沒有能力我們檢查 我們評估如果任務安全我才會讓它運轉我知道 不是運轉嘛 你有沒有能力去檢測"},{"start":416.082,"end":441.967,"text":"檢測能力當然是有那檢測全部安全檢測通過他才能取得繼續運轉對不對這裡面包括機族包括管路包括土木基建全部通通要少說也要有1000多項少說也要有1000多項所以我們是做得到的現在就是政治問題啦現在就不是能源問題啦"},{"start":443.717,"end":469.944,"text":"政治問題如果能克服那你們又能幫他做百分之百的安全檢測那台電又願意提出來台灣確實是可以提前提前再度使用核能這樣啦我們給他半天的時間就是說今年是2025年嘛那今年5月17剛剛達到輝和家園嘛"},{"start":472.791,"end":492.028,"text":"我們這台美女,她的元旦講話,可以確認,龍珠灰頭金不凡,我會靠電話跟她說,美女我會處理,你以前也覺得她不錯,我都可以跟老總統說,所以你們要準備,準備開始做整個福林電廠營業的安全檢測,你們做得到嗎?"},{"start":500.55,"end":516.42,"text":"這本來就是台電若求申請的話所以你已經準備好了河岸會的職責啊所以說河岸會早已經準備好了這河岸會的職責真好 真好這樣我聽你會很滿意所以台灣鄉親你們就知道沒問題 技術沒問題 檢測沒問題有安全 靠負擔現在是政治問題你們聽得懂嗎所以你們70幾%支持負擔是正確的"},{"start":531.946,"end":549.683,"text":"我請教你,在我們台灣,我們現在台灣,老總統說的,他說三點,其實他兩天來已經說四半了,不排除重新使用核能,他是最後一半才說SMR,"},{"start":553.123,"end":563.009,"text":"所以在他內心 你要懂得讀他的心啦他內心是要要贏的他知道台灣沒領完 衝刺是沒辦法跟世界競爭的啦我現在請教你就是說 在這裡的國家裡面"},{"start":570.182,"end":582.211,"text":"有的延20年 美國也有延40年是不是有延40年?是嘛啊 德國都延20年嘛法國大概只有延10年啦40年到50年這樣對不對你認為我們台灣一年三千一年三千如果要啟動延壓應該是做10年20年還是40年的整個"},{"start":600.202,"end":606.055,"text":"如果要啟動營業啦不啟動就跟你無所謂嘛要啟動他應該設定在10年"},{"start":615.022,"end":628.815,"text":"跟委員說明喔那首先還是要取決於台電公司自己評估然後決定他到底要申請延長多少時間那延長時間比如說他申請五年或十年或二十年"},{"start":631.618,"end":638.344,"text":"如果他申請10年或20年他提供的相關佐證資料要去證明說這一段時間機組可以延長運轉所以還是取決於台電公司整體的評估然後核安委會去確認說"},{"start":656.52,"end":676.836,"text":"他提出來的時間是可以符合法規跟安全的要求那你建議台電應該提出規定?當然如果以目前美國的做法就是先第一次申請延長20年然後之後才申請第二次的延長20年目前美國的做法是這樣這三項有延長20年我跟大家報告我們台灣只有零元港幣"},{"start":684.156,"end":700.072,"text":"新本超過二十條新代表超過二十條新代表很客觀我最後問你一個問題 主席我最後結論就是說為什麼我們的太陽能一度四公尺到五公尺為什麼印度的太陽能一度一公尺日本這麼先進它整個也三公尺為什麼"},{"start":708.7,"end":718.049,"text":"你們才有答案雖然你們是官府領但太陽能為什麼在台灣變成這樣尤其我的故鄉為什麼我們的太陽能不是像美國兩顆而已美國也兩顆而已為什麼我們不是太陽能的主管機構所以沒辦法這樣好 謝謝謝謝阿里"},{"start":734.444,"end":735.645,"text":"好 謝謝謝榮介委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時20分）主席，我請核能安全委員會的主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["謝委員龍介：陳主委你好。我講河洛話，你能聽懂嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：聽得懂。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣很好。"],["陳主任委員明真：我是客家人，但我聽得懂。"],["謝委員龍介：沒問題吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒問題。"],["謝委員龍介：我請教你，在國際的研究中，現在一直在說SMR小型模組化的核能機組，比較有成果的大概有幾個國家，你了解嗎？有在商轉的，差不多……"],["陳主任委員明真：請國原院院長來回答一下。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，現在國際上有在商轉的主要是共產國家，像是大陸跟蘇聯，沒有在商轉的有歐洲、日本、美國，估計最快在2029年、2030年才會開始。"],["謝委員龍介：加拿大？"],["高院長梓木：加拿大也有，Bill Gates……"],["謝委員龍介：英國、法國……但是大陸已經有在商轉了，還有俄羅斯，就像你剛才說的。但我們沒辦法跟他們接觸、合作，我們是民主的供應鏈，他們算紅色的供應鏈，所以我們的立場要清楚。這樣就很可惜了，因為需要AI的人才，剛才中研院說要有超級的算力、AI，沒電就沒辦法了，國家如果不在這裡投資，不放大筆的資源，只想要官商勾結，錢應該要實際花在應該花的地方。大家都了解，尤其在座有很多做研究的科學家，都知道現在AI的時代是一日千里，今天沒做，明天就來不及了，可是我們政府還是「死鴨子嘴硬」、很「蠻皮」啊！","關於核能發電，從讀書時代到現在，今天我們吃美國牌的飼料，當時核一、核二、核三在研究，對於地質的探勘，如果沒有經過美國的專家認定，沒有經過臺灣這些專家的認定，哪有可能會開發呢？主委，全世界的核能電廠原來的設計大約都是40年的使用年限，你知道已經處理延役並繼續商轉的大概有幾座嗎？大約算一下。"],["陳主任委員明真：總共有四百多座核電廠。"],["謝委員龍介：取得延役的？"],["陳主任委員明真：延役的有一百九十多座。"],["謝委員龍介：有一百九十多座，臺灣連一座都不放過，一隻都不放過。各位鄉親們想想看，很可憐！臺灣有這麼好的科學家、這麼安全的檢測專家，台電核一、核二、核三廠多年來在全世界核能的運轉評比都是前五名，我們卻不敢把核能電廠延役，這是很可惜的，我不知道你們對這個……核安會是否有能力？如果核能電廠要延役，這些安全檢測你們做得到嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：報告委員，核安會的職責就是核安。"],["謝委員龍介：你們做得到嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有核安就不會有核電，如果核安會認為一座電廠有安全疑慮的話，我們會提起檢查。"],["謝委員龍介：沒錯！"],["陳主任委員明真：這對我們沒有什麼模糊餘地。"],["謝委員龍介：現在核管法已經通過，當然在民進黨執政之下是一定不會啟動的，因為他們的神主牌就是非核家園，所以我也一直跟清德兄說：你已經達到目標、已經對民進黨的「公媽」有交代了，非核家園5月17日已經達成了，夠了！我想越早啟動，臺灣人民會越早得到幸福。其實現在來說，他已經有在動了，我曾說過2027年10月以前他如果沒說要重新啟動核能，我吃三碗牛肉麵給你看！我太了解他了！「愛食假細膩」、怕「歹勢」、怕人家說！要阿莎力一點、大方一點，已經達到非核家園，就可以對世界有所交代、對所有民進黨的先進先賢有所交代，應該考慮兩千三百萬人的幸福，考慮臺灣未來AI的發展，不然沒電是要AI什麼！會變是「欸害」，不是AI。現在就是你這個單位有辦法，為了能源問題，台電有可能會倒喔！換成國民黨執政，有可能會推動，如果是這樣，你們有能力把核能電廠延役的安全檢查做到百分之百嗎？有辦法嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：這本來就是核安會的職責，如果……"],["謝委員龍介：能不能做到？你們有沒有能力做到？有沒有能力？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們檢查、評估後，如果認為安全，才會讓它運轉，如果……"],["謝委員龍介：不是運轉，是你有沒有能力檢測？"],["陳主任委員明真：檢測能力當然是有，我們有能力啊！"],["謝委員龍介：有，好。全部安全檢測通過，才能取得繼續運轉，對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["謝委員龍介：這裡面包括機組、管路、土木基建，全部通通要，少說也有一千多項……"],["陳主任委員明真：有很多項目要檢查。"],["謝委員龍介：所以我們是做得到的，現在就是政治問題，現在不是能源問題，政治問題如果能克服，你們又能幫它做百分之百的安全檢測，而且台電又願意提出來，臺灣確實是可以提前再度使用核能。這樣啦！我們給他半年的時間，今年是2025年，今年5月17日剛剛達到非核家園，我們期待明年總統元旦講話可以覺醒，浪子回頭金不換。我會打電話跟他說，叫他明年趕快處理，林宜瑾跟他也不錯，我們都可以跟賴總統說，所以你們要準備開始規劃核能電廠延役的安全檢測，做得到嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：台電如果提出申請的話……"],["謝委員龍介：所以你已經準備好了？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會的職責啊！"],["謝委員龍介：所以核安會早就已經準備好了？"],["陳主任委員明真：這是核安會的法定職責。"],["謝委員龍介：很好，很好，這樣我聽了很滿意，臺灣鄉親也都知道技術沒問題、檢查沒問題，有安全才有核能，現在是政治問題，你們聽得懂嘛！所以百分之七十幾支持核能是正確的。現在賴總統說的三點，其實他兩年來已經說了4次不排除重新使用核能，他是最後這一次才提到SMR，所以你要懂得讀他的心，他內心是要用核能的，他知道臺灣如果沒有充足能源，沒有辦法跟世界競爭。我請教你，在這些國家裡面，有的延20年，美國也有延40年的，是不是有延40年的？"],["陳主任委員明真：是，是。"],["謝委員龍介：是嘛！多數都延20年，法國主張延10年，就是使用40年到50年，對不對？你認為臺灣的核一、二、三廠如果要啟動延役，應該是做10年、20年，還是40年的規劃？如果不啟動，那就跟你無關；要啟動，依你們專家專業的見解，應該設定在10年、20年或是40年？"],["陳主任委員明真：請高組長說明。"],["謝委員龍介：好，沒關係，來！"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，首先還是要取決於台電公司自己的評估跟設備狀況。"],["謝委員龍介：是、是、是。"],["高組長斌：然後決定它到底要申請延長多少時間，譬如它申請5年、10年或20年……"],["謝委員龍介：不是，5年太短了！"],["高組長斌：如果它申請……"],["謝委員龍介：要用國際的10年、20年、40年，以你們的專業見解，你會建議幾年？"],["高組長斌：如果它申請10年或20年，那麼提供的相關佐證資料要證明這段時間機組可以延長運轉，所以還是取決於台電公司的整體評估，然後核安會會去確認它提出來的時間是可以符合法規跟安全要求的。"],["謝委員龍介：那你建議台電應該提出幾年？"],["高組長斌：如果以目前美國的作法，就是第一次先申請延長20年，之後才申請第二次的延長20年，目前美國的作法是這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：如果這三個廠延20年，我跟大家報告，臺灣光是能源降低的成本就超過20兆新臺幣、超過20兆新臺幣，這很可觀。","我最後問你一個問題，主席，我最後結論，為什麼我們的太陽能一度4塊4到5塊2？為什麼印度的太陽能一度1塊錢而已？日本這麼先進，他們最貴的也才3塊錢，為什麼？你們有答案嗎？雖然你們是管核能的，但太陽能為什麼在臺灣會變成這樣，尤其在我的故鄉，為什麼我們的太陽能不是像美國只要2塊錢？德國也是2塊錢而已，為什麼？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們不是太陽能的主管機構，所以沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["謝委員龍介：好，這樣好，謝謝。外國的1塊錢、2塊錢到3塊3，我們的是4塊4到5塊2，台電真是「一空烏朗朗，廈門通廣東，愈補愈大空」，可憐喔！"],["主席：好，謝謝謝龍介委員。","等一下在伍麗華委員質詢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}