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本席邀請我們交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":13.871,"end":41.954,"text":"部長 這幾天 部長好大家都在關心發生在新北市的這個重大車禍它是發生在一所學校附近嘛是不是對 它是在學校附近那我看從剛剛到現在以及交通部在事件發生以後所宣布的我們通通都是針對駕駛人我們不希望這種悲劇再發生但交通部目前所提的對策都是針對駕駛人"},{"start":44.414,"end":65.438,"text":"第一個 我們希望盡快調查出真正肇事的原因是真的因為年紀太大嗎 是生理的因素嗎還是心理的因素 其實你也不了解每一個人的身體狀況又不一樣 跟年齡又不一定直接相關還有就算你年輕一點 胡亂開車也會有"},{"start":69.607,"end":80.846,"text":"黑白開車的都有啦你可以訂一個法規就可以減少胡亂開車的嗎當然希望可以降低啦但不可能完全沒有所以我今天要講的跟你討論的是另外一種不一樣的"},{"start":83.396,"end":105.534,"text":"就是 那我們要把路口設計好啦把道路設計好 後面開車你沒辦法騙人啦但是我們的道路政府該做的 把路弄好的話就絕對可以大幅降低悲劇的發生啦你知不知道花城寺的附近 學校附近是一個 這裡都沒有把它定義為什麼區你知道嗎"},{"start":107.366,"end":114.115,"text":"你可能不了解2023年那時候你還沒來交通部叫做通學區"},{"start":116.141,"end":138.689,"text":"交通部訂學校附近150公車 依賴 道路 都叫做同學區啦以前學校附近的同學區 哪個部會在規範 內政部啦那有的是交通部 所以很亂啦後來交通部在2023年 頒布一個校園周邊人行空間改善參考指引"},{"start":139.429,"end":147.162,"text":"整合很多單位的意見我看你這個職營是薄情啦針對好酒瓶喔下到最好的最完整的"},{"start":148.22,"end":161.522,"text":"那只可惜喔指引就是指引 你沒有強制力啊就心北市以這個悲劇發生 人家要去檢討不是只檢討教室啦 說他規範太老啦他要教教 要換什麼什麼的 你要檢討為什麼既然是學校 老師 學生 家長那些都會很多人在那裡出入啊你道路安全 你要按照一定的規範來做"},{"start":176.311,"end":188.836,"text":"我們台灣的大陸交通相關的規範大部分都超日本那日本的經驗好我們當然要學習嘛日本也有類似規範就設定為一個特區就同學區啦"},{"start":192.304,"end":212.713,"text":"所以你要有什麼樣的措施第一個 你絕對會有物理性的設計啦 降低它的速度比如說 好保護公車來 那是在高雄寶庭的一百五十公尺以內都是同學區所以它的道路喔 日本的顏色就不一樣讓駕駛 開車開到這裡你就知道說我來到好旁邊了對你啦 也有物理性的減速的設計啦"},{"start":221.75,"end":228.86,"text":"讓你車要開就開不快 因為同學區啦 交通部的設計 你有的規範是30公里而已 時速30啦 最高到50啦 時速到30是要怎麼開"},{"start":233.663,"end":261.034,"text":"很容易超輸嘛你就要有一些物理性的東西設計 他們才沒辦法開快對不對甚至斑馬線 因為孩子身高比較低嘛他斑馬線是電高 給你孩子過馬路的時候 駕駛看得到都是同學區 特殊的設計啦甚至啊 路條管子給你設個歪啦給你開不快啦學校圍牆邊的道路 你看我給你看啦"},{"start":261.65,"end":289.298,"text":"這是日本人的設計啦你要學日本就要學好學人家的長處日本把學校周邊的道路你看那個斑馬線顏色不一樣那個道路顏色不一樣對你喔還有一些減速球讓你開不快路彎像這個很明顯稍微設計一個彎度讓孩子家長平凡進出的地方你速度沒有加快"},{"start":290.145,"end":311.769,"text":"今天大家都在這裡檢討教室不是老就身體壞啦不是老就後悔開車啦什麼年紀都會亂開車啦要把政府該做的事情做好啦那教安部竟然訂出這個校園周邊人性改善參考空間規範同學區怎麼做那縣市政府為什麼不做呢這新北區政府很明顯的啊嚴重失職啊"},{"start":317.54,"end":344.33,"text":"很多地方政府啦 我相信不是只有新北市而已啦所以交通部應該要把這利用喔 現在民氣可用啦把這些縣市政府喔 你應該開一個專案會議啦檢討同學區啦因為學校周邊是最危險任何國家交通規範最嚴格一定在學校附近啦因為學校一定附近啦 小朋友一定會有家長 老師 所以"},{"start":345.592,"end":361.891,"text":"你要把各縣市政府叫來啊大家要依照規範來做啦因為你頂的就是只有執運而已嘛不然你提高到衛健 提高到行政命令來檢討對各地方政府的補助嘛你同時去幫我做 我就錢給你嘛"},{"start":364.164,"end":390.329,"text":"是不是這樣 老闆長你要幹嘛呢好 報告委員 目前內政部國土署其實也有這麼做他們對於這個地方政府來要求或者是申請通學區的整體的改善計畫的補助裡面都有把這些所謂物理改善的部分有列入重要的要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要執行的內政部門員 要�"},{"start":393.733,"end":420.584,"text":"完全沒有物理性的阻隔嘛所以你們要去弄到這哪裡 這哪裡 你看他稍微做半套的同學區啦你看他斑馬線顏色不一樣對不對問題是他沒有聯合安全維護性 那所謂我剛才你看那個物理性的設計嘛那完全沒有啊這邊啊 這邊啊這就是交差了事嘛我們再看下一張給你看"},{"start":422.593,"end":442.842,"text":"標線型的人行道就是為你投靠動作的人行道你倆的物理性阻隔做不一樣嗎對 物理性的阻隔的部分內政部國土署他們最近也會來研議這個問題未來對地方的這些改善然後你們就去趕快要利用這段期間限制政府會乖乖做的時候趕快去做出該做的事情好"},{"start":443.584,"end":448.67,"text":"另外換照檢討老人確實我們對老人駕駛大家 部長你自己也有說因為台灣是個高齡化社會台灣的老人駕駛會快速的增加現在一百八十幾萬 十年後就變兩百八十萬"},{"start":462.873,"end":485.507,"text":"十年內會增加一百萬七十歲以上的老人駕駛所以對老人駕駛日本就有針對這個地方有做很完整的政策規範台灣都抄日本那你就抄好報告員 目前就是學習日本日本的高 日本還有全世界駕照沒有在換照我看台灣是很少數國家之一啦你有沒有知道我們古北更高"},{"start":488.631,"end":508.389,"text":"18歲那你目前規定幾歲換照有效期限都五十幾年75歲所以如果我18歲考上駕照我到75歲我才需要換照我可以去看一些新的交通規則這當中那漫長的五六十年有什麼新的交通規定號誌標線啊"},{"start":511.035,"end":526.882,"text":"因為你有注意啦不然你都不知道18歲過一年到現在已經75歲就算你把他降到70歲啦也是很久啦對不對18歲過到70歲你才可能有機會去碰觸到新的交通規定"},{"start":528.288,"end":548.775,"text":"要有一些新的耗資 他們說我們可能開車機會比較少 你現在做普通的喔無所謂的 其實你自己路邊注意看一看 標線耗資你根本看不到跟你以前考駕照 炸了天差地遠啦所以日本喔 日本的駕照有分界 也有分性啦它有綠色駕照 藍色駕照 金色駕照 細節我沒時間講啦"},{"start":551.636,"end":562.441,"text":"你不要因為一個車 你就頭痛醫頭 腳痛醫腳你如果要頂這個換照制度 你就頂好誰換照你本來不是認知測驗 看一些交通規則 不是這樣它日本還有實車測試的甚至於它有專門設計給老人開的車輛 來我給你看一下"},{"start":572.657,"end":596.414,"text":"日本規範到這麼細喔 輔助車輛限定駕照不是剛剛立法給你問你回答的輔助駕駛電腦系統 不是啦這種車就專門設計給老人開的啦他的煞車系統 他的加速系統 他的警示系統都特別設計而且這個腳腳 老人啦 這個腳腳 任何人都可以啦 不是老人你只能開這種車"},{"start":599.246,"end":617.315,"text":"這種輔助車輛限定的駕照你只能開這種輔助車你不能開一般的車因為一般的車設計性能跟這個安全性都不一樣因為有的地方不是都有T-PASS可以坐啦對 沒錯你像我們台南的正開路人要坐多久結運 坐公車就很困難啦"},{"start":621.411,"end":632.37,"text":"對不對 像這個就可以贏啦這開不快啦來裝避摩托車比較安全嘛對不對 而且他的安全式是很多啦而且駕照是特別的啦"},{"start":633.653,"end":658.376,"text":"所以你換照 你有沒有分級換照 制度 我希望你能頂幾座的出來啦好 我沒思考我認為全世界目前對老人駕駛最先進的規範就是日本因為日本的老人化是世界上最嚴重的 現在台灣比日本還嚴重所以我們要趕快 這方面我們趕快追上來 好不好好 部長好 辛苦啦 這個一定要做好 好好 謝謝 多謝 保重好 感謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1349,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時42分）感謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。這幾天大家都在關心發生在新北市的重大車禍，它是發生在一所學校附近，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對！它是在學校附近。"],["林委員俊憲：從剛剛到現在，以及交通部在事件發生以後所宣布的，我們通通都是針對駕駛人，我們不希望這種悲劇再發生，但交通部目前所提的對策都是針對駕駛人。第一個，我們希望儘快調查出真正肇事的原因，是真的因為年紀太大嗎？是生理的因素嗎？還是心理的因素？其實你也不瞭解啦！每一個人的身體狀況不一樣，跟年齡又不一定直接相關，對不對？還有就算你年輕一點，也會胡亂開車啦！隨便開車的都有啦！你可以訂一個法規，就可以減少胡亂開車的嗎？當然希望可以降低，但不可能完全沒有，所以我今天要跟你討論的是另外一種不一樣的看法，就是我們要把路口設計好、把道路設計好。你沒辦法避免隨便開車的，但是對於政府該做的，我們把道路弄好的話，絕對可以大幅降低悲劇發生啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：你知不知道這發生在學校附近？交通部把學校附近定義為什麼區，你知道嗎？你可能不瞭解。2023年那時候你還沒來交通部，叫作通學區啦！交通部訂學校附近150公尺以內的道路都叫作通學區，以前學校附近的通學區是哪個部會在規範？內政部。"],["陳部長世凱：內政部。"],["林委員俊憲：有的是交通部，所以很亂啦！後來交通部在2023年頒布一個校園周邊人行空間改善參考指引，整合很多單位的意見，我覺得這個指引針對學校周邊是目前寫得最好的、最完整的，只可惜指引就是指引，你沒有強制力，就新北市這個悲劇發生，我們要去檢討，不是只有檢討駕駛，說他幾歲、太老了，以後駕照要換要怎樣、怎樣，你要檢討為什麼既然是學校，老師、學生、家長都會有很多人在那邊出入，道路安全有沒有按照一定的規範來做？臺灣道路交通相關的規範大部分都抄日本，日本的經驗好，我們當然要學習，日本也有類似規範校園周邊，就設定為一個特區，即通學區。所以要有什麼樣的措施？第一個，絕對會有物理性的設計來降低車的速度，譬如交通部訂定學校150公尺以內都是通學區，日本就讓道路的顏色不一樣，讓駕駛開車開到這裡，就知道我來到學校旁邊了；第二個，它會有物理性減速的設計，讓車要開也開不快，因為在通學區，交通部的設計是規範時速30公里而已，最高到50公里，時速到30是要怎麼開？很容易超速嘛！你就要有一些物理性的設計，車才沒辦法開太快，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：甚至斑馬線，因為孩子身高比較低，斑馬線是墊高，讓孩子過馬路的時候，駕駛可以看得到，這都是通學區特殊的設計，甚至道路故意做得有點歪，讓你開不快，學校圍牆邊的道路，你看這是日本人的設計，你要學日本的就要學好，學人家的長處，日本把學校周邊的道路顏色弄得不一樣；第二、還有一些減速丘讓你開不快；像這個道路的路彎很明顯有稍微設計一個彎度，讓孩子、家長頻繁進出的地方，速度沒有辦法加快。今天大家都在檢討駕駛，不是老人就身體不好、不是老人就亂開車，什麼年紀都會亂開車，政府要把該做的事情做好啦！交通部竟然訂出「校園周邊人行空間改善參考指引」規範通學區怎麼做，那縣市政府為什麼不做呢？新北市政府很明顯的嚴重失職，很多地方政府啦！我相信不是只有新北市而已，所以交通部應該利用現在民氣可用，針對這些縣市政府，你應該開一個專案會議檢討通學區，因為學校周邊最危險，任何國家交通規範最嚴格一定是在學校附近，因為學校一定有小朋友、家長、老師，所以你要把各縣市政府叫來。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：大家要依照規範來做，因為你訂的只是指引而已，不然你把它提高位階到行政命令，檢討對各地方政府的補助，把通學區做好，我就把錢給你嘛，是不是這樣？部長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前內政部國土署其實也有這麼做，他們對於地方政府來要求或申請通學區的整體改善計畫的補助裡面，都有把所謂物理改善的部分列入重要要執行的……"],["林委員俊憲：問題是地方政府也沒在做。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們只能儘量要求……"],["林委員俊憲：我再給你看這次發生車禍地點的照片，你看人行道完全沒有物理性的阻隔，所以才會去撞到，你看它是做半套的通學區，它的斑馬線顏色不一樣，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：問題是它沒有任何安全維護的物理性設計嘛，這完全沒有啊！這就是隨便交差了事嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我們再看下一張照片，你看標線型的人行道，就是畫在地上當作人行道，如果沒有物理性阻隔，很危險的啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，物理性阻隔的部分，內政部國土署最近也會研議這個問題，未來對地方的這些改善，會把物理性做加強……"],["林委員俊憲：那你們就趕快利用這段時間，縣市政府會乖乖做的時候。"],["陳部長世凱：是！"],["林委員俊憲：趕快去做出該做的事情啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：另外換照，現在你說檢討老人，確實我們對老人駕駛……部長，你自己也有說到，因為臺灣是高齡化社會，臺灣的老人駕駛會快速的增加，現在一百八十幾萬嘛，10年後就變280萬，10年內會增加100萬70歲以上的老人駕駛，所以對於老人駕駛，日本針對地方有做很完整的政策規範。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：臺灣都抄日本，那你就抄好。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前就是學習日本。"],["林委員俊憲：還有全世界駕照沒有在換照的，我看臺灣是很少數國家之一，你知不知道我們幾歲考駕照？18歲。"],["陳部長世凱：18歲。"],["林委員俊憲：好，目前規定幾歲換照？75。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有效期限都五十幾年，這個確實是……"],["林委員俊憲：75歲，所以如果我18歲考上駕照，我到75歲才需要換照，我怎麼會去看一些新的交通規則？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這當中漫長的五十、六十年有什麼新的交通規定、號誌、標線，除非他有在注意，不然都不知道，18歲考過一張駕照用到75歲，就算你降到70歲也是很久，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：18歲考過到70歲，你才可能有機會去碰觸到新的交通規定，還是一些新的號誌，坦白說，我們可能開車機會比較少，你現在當部長，沒什麼機會開車，你自己注意看看路邊，有的標線、號誌根本都看不懂，跟你以前考駕照時早就天差地遠。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯，改變很大。"],["林委員俊憲：所以日本的駕照有分級、分色，它有綠色駕照、藍色駕照、金色駕照，細節我沒時間講，你不要因為一個車禍就頭痛醫頭、頭痛醫腳。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["林委員俊憲：你如果要訂換照制度，你就把它訂好，日本換照不是只有認知測驗，看一下交通規則，不是這樣啦！日本還有實車測試，甚至有專門設計給老人開的車輛，你看日本規範到這麼細，叫做輔助車輛限定駕照，不是剛剛立委問你，你回答的輔助駕駛電腦系統，不是，這種車就是專門設計給老人開的，它的煞車系統、它的加速系統，它的警示系統都特別經過設計，而且任何人都可以持有這種駕照，不一定是老人，但持輔助車輛限定駕照的人，就只能開這種輔助車，不能開一般的車，因為一般車設計的性能跟這種輔助車安全性都不一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：因為不是所有地方都有TPASS可以坐。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：像我們臺南鄉下的老人，你要叫他去哪裡坐捷運？坐公車就很困難了，所以像這種輔助車就可以用，而且開不快，總比摩托車還安全，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：而且它的安全設施很多，駕照是特別的。如果你要分級換照制度，我希望你能訂整套的出來。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我再思考。"],["林委員俊憲：我認為全世界目前對老人駕駛最先進的規範就是日本，因為日本的老人化是世界上最嚴重的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：現在臺灣比日本還嚴重，所以這方面我們要趕快追上來，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再研議。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，辛苦啦！這個一定要做好。謝謝部長，感謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。等一下時間的掌握，我們時間到了就響鈴，每隔一分鐘再響鈴一次，也請質詢的委員能夠控制一下時間。","現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：本院委員廖先翔等人，鑑於中華民國114年5月19日新北市三峽區北大國民小學前發生高齡駕駛汽車失控暴衝，釀成學生及家長多人傷亡的重大交通事故，於是高齡駕駛交通安全管理制度的問題又再度浮上檯面。爰請交通部通盤檢討現行高齡駕駛管理機制以及高齡者叫車津貼補助方案，包括高齡駕駛換照時增訂可測出其駕駛及反應能力的機制、增加誘因鼓勵長者繳回駕照，並提出配套保障高齡者的基本移動權。在一個月內提出報告及行動方案，是否有當？敬請公決。","說明：","一、我國65歲以上人口已達19.18%-2025年將突破20%，正式邁入超高齡社會。同時，公路局統計75歲以上持駕照者約60.8萬人，雖換照率提升至91.4%，但高齡駕駛肇事件數仍舊突破5萬件且逐年攀升。因此僅靠『75歲換照』其實並未真正把關道路安全。而且現行換照流程，只要體檢合格並通過認知功能測驗即可換照。如果僅是體格檢查及認知功能測驗恐難以判斷一位長者的駕駛能力，亦測不出遇到突發狀況的反應能力？","二、涉及法規：道路交通安全規則第52-2條及第64條，汽車駕駛人認知功能測驗規定。","三、高齡駕駛人肇事問題涉及長者交通權益與公共安全間的平衡。政府在加強管理之際，亦應配套保障高齡者的基本移動權，提供長者友善的替代運輸服務。並提供鼓勵高齡者主動停駕的誘因（例如補助安裝先進輔助駕駛設備、提供繳回駕照換取交通補助方案等），務求在不歧視長者的前提下，提高整體道路安全。","提案人：廖先翔　　邱若華　　黃健豪　　魯明哲","二、","案由：經查，行政院公共工程委員會民國108年7月26日工程技字第1080200799號函示：「依公共工程委員會再生粒料運用於公共工程跨部會推動小組會議，為達成「刨用平衡」目標，請各工程主管機關及縣市政府負責督促轄內工程，從個案工程設計階段即規劃使用AC刨除料。AC刨除料係由道路等公共工程所產生，工程會108年7月26日工程技字第1080200799號函揭示，政府有責任於公共工程中使用刨除料，以落實資源循環利用。","另，「冷拌再生瀝青混凝土」為內政部國土管理署於110年8月發布及行政院公共工程委員會於113年11月增訂審查中之「第02727章冷拌再生瀝青混凝土施工網要規範」使用100%瀝青刨除料，於現地式或廠拌式進行拌合，過程中不需將粒料加熱，並可直接鋪設於道路基底層。","現業經交通部高速公路局規劃研究暨試辦冷拌再生鋪面材進行面層鋪設已具成效，爰建議公共工程委員會及交通部應督促所屬暨地方政府交通路政機關儘速辦理，採用新型冷拌再生鋪面材進行道路鋪設工程，並採用逐年增加20%之使用量，落實政府循環經濟政策及資源循環利用目標，以符合氣候變遷因應法第4條：「國家溫室氣體長期減量目標為中華民國一百三十九年溫室氣體淨零排放。為達成前項目標，各級政府應與國民、事業、團體共同推動溫室氣體減量、發展負排放技術及促進國際合作。」","提案人：鄭正鈐　　游　顥　　廖先翔　　黃健豪　　"],["主席：第一案，交通部有沒有什麼意見？"],["林司長福山：跟主席還有委員報告，針對第一案的部分，剛剛有跟廖委員報告，也取得同意，就是最後一句「在三個月內提出書面報告及行動方案」。"],["廖委員先翔：OK，同意。"],["主席：謝謝。","第二案，工程會的意見？"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟主席及各位委員報告，有關這個提案，剛剛有跟交通部，還有跟提案委員鄭委員報告，因為這個是新材料，所以建議刪除最後一段的第四行「並採用逐年增加20%之使用量，」這幾個字，有跟鄭委員和交通部報告過了。"],["主席：好，現在公布完都沒有問題。第一案，委員有沒有意見？"],["廖委員先翔：OK。"],["主席：沒有意見，OK，謝謝。","第二案有沒有意見？"],["廖委員先翔：鄭委員沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見。好，修正後通過。","臨時提案處理完畢。如有委員對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","現在繼續詢答。我們請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃建賓","張啓楷","王美惠","郭昱晴","牛煦庭","陳雪生","林月琴","邱志偉","游顥","林國成","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","林德福"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理114年度中央政府總預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計48案；二、審查及處理114\n年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計20案；三、處理114年度中央政府總預算\n關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計8案","agenda_id":"1145302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}