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不要去所以我們中央官員是完全禁止"},{"start":126.986,"end":135.048,"text":"那地方官員呢地方政府呢我們也評估很多因為我們過去都說因為我們有下鄉去跟地方政府溝通有些地方政府跟我說過去我們那個不樂見地方政府去講得太模糊了可不可以具體一點"},{"start":147.791,"end":160.855,"text":"事實上我們的交流應該要去統戰化這種你平時可以去正常健康有序的交流但是不要在人家設定一個統戰的平台去"},{"start":161.707,"end":191.107,"text":"去幫人家做統戰的這種盆場反而會陷入到統戰的陷阱風險也比較多所以我們就希望他們不要去參加這個海峽論壇除了他自己政務人員不要前往他所屬的這些事業單位或是所屬的公務人員地方政府決定的也希望他們不要核准他們去"},{"start":191.847,"end":196.512,"text":"主委 本席跟你談到這件問題的時候 澳國的銀行要去辦了 到你沒錢為止你地方的政府有要去參加 你的帳戶有多少人 有帶一個官司要去嗎"},{"start":210.225,"end":212.206,"text":"交給我們報告,截至目前為止,並沒有收到地方政府的申請也跟委員報告...交給我們報告,交給我們事務委員,交給我們看什麼人會去"},{"start":224.906,"end":227.107,"text":"跟委員報告其實大家去參加這個海峽論壇它就是一個統戰的平台也經常口惠而實不至那使我們參加的人都去那邊沒有什麼失意而且相關的這些統戰的活動"},{"start":255.686,"end":264.87,"text":"1910年到今天,目前為止,這件事也沒有了我們就拭目以待,讓他相信我什麼人,全都已經參加了如果他有提出,我們也會提高,跟他提醒風險,會勸阻他如果他執意要去,我們還有一套,規勸的,如果你一定要去的話他如果不聽你的規勸,我一定不會來的"},{"start":280.694,"end":282.355,"text":"其實目前為止是沒有啦因為你說的這個時間還要辦如果要申請還要付所以你剛才的回答"},{"start":300.085,"end":304.048,"text":"也有人會去啦是有可能這樣我們要看什麼人會去啦不可以去鳳凰寨不可以去台湾買去啦如果既然站好好保護我看一看去哪裡去哪一家去哪一家真漂亮啦"},{"start":319.759,"end":335.825,"text":"常常在早餐台外的人來煮的,在這裡本身就跟你我們事務委員會落尾到目前為止你說沒有辦的,我們要看什麼人會去,因為落尾,你不用搞了"},{"start":337.125,"end":341.886,"text":"在這裡本身要跟你說 上禮拜五的十三的時候有一個新聞很大的說沙縣小吃來台灣開到九間店 但是在這個過程當中開店開很多 以前也沒開過但是這間店是國台辦出來開去才會說讚的主委你覺得這件事"},{"start":365.39,"end":377.64,"text":"我知道沙縣小吃在中國大陸都有類似的...沒有啦,我現在要問說來台灣開車要去,國台辦說因為它開機才會啦,說來俄羅斯啦,這有可能未來是同站喔啦,雖然你..."},{"start":386.089,"end":390.612,"text":"全都來申請台灣會做生意啦未來有可能發生什麼事嗎?我們要去議訪咧,不然發生的事是,我能去了解,感謝委員提醒我有三線小吃我如果問你這樣,你還想說不知道發生什麼事你還聽不懂,關於這個"},{"start":413.757,"end":424.464,"text":"因為他聽不說嚴重事件我們現在有了解他還是依法設立的當然啦 我剛才說依法設立啦有各種統戰或是不當的行為那我們也會依法查處截至目前為止還沒有發現任何違法的事情因為他說一個很嚴重的就是說兩岸一家會煙火共鳴"},{"start":442.976,"end":455.82,"text":"主委,我們這都要去最終去注意,在我來說,本身來說,你應該做為陸委會的主委,應該對政客,大家也要了解說實在,所有的單位,你們這單位就是要保護台灣的生存內容,這是很嚴重的"},{"start":468.259,"end":477.901,"text":"主委,在這幾個星期,你有說到說,啊,我們武統藝人的時候,開始要檢舉處理啦檢舉在我們兩岸條例裡面的三十三條之一的處罰裡面,我認為說,看來看去,我們從來就不罵藝人"},{"start":493.499,"end":510.07,"text":"出發過啦,我們都會想說,那個人又賺錢,他又一生不由己,有的藝人是太過惡勢了啦在這個過程當中,這個藝人,說到他連同台灣都沒有,他在中國,他選擇中國的好啦"},{"start":517.25,"end":522.294,"text":"像這個我們未來,我們真的要去加強這裡的兩岸條例法啦在這裡面,很多立委都要提案過,要退很多"},{"start":531.67,"end":558.966,"text":"要不然我要問主委是您33條1日1日您如何去處理來 回答一下感謝委員我們已經跟文化部合組這個行政這個查處小組那麼正在進行必要的查處作為我們最主要也是要跟藝人你們為什麼會在一個特定的時刻全體一致"},{"start":562.311,"end":578.91,"text":"發布傷害台灣的言論或者是附和中共軍演的這些貼文那這個確實不是自發的行為我們要了解背後真正的事實是什麼再來依法採取處分主委"},{"start":581.132,"end":587.454,"text":"硬硬的喔,你們的看法要顧緊啦你本身所了解的喔,我覺得太過敏了,要顧緊處理啦像你們的副主委說的,梁文傑說的說,我們硬硬的,如果發,這個藝人會說,我們會去換人,所以他也不敢做啦"},{"start":607.461,"end":610.244,"text":"你不要煩,不要衝啊,他生命也要做,國家賣去,他還有天理順利,他才會賣,所以主委,這是怎樣,本身說到這個才分開,一個國家,一個民族要流淚,是非常不簡單,"},{"start":626.403,"end":628.665,"text":"我這個人發明到今天主要的國家像剛才說的川普說的統一和平他是要說中美的關稅你認為他敢說這個川普是空空笑笑的誰是要變什麼我就變什麼你認為"},{"start":647.701,"end":649.863,"text":"這部份是針對中美經貿問題沒有涉及台灣美國國務院也正式說明這個跟台灣沒有關係是美中談判經貿的問題"},{"start":668.763,"end":669.983,"text":"所以我也覺得很奇怪,因為美國和中國,不是好評,不是同意,他們無緣無故去說這樣,造成台灣的混亂,所以那是毛環製造者,那是造勝你人的總統,"},{"start":688.81,"end":698.556,"text":"什麼人對有利益的一個要處理啦所以本席在這裡說你沒有什麼事情都有可能發生本席跟你說的這幾件你要最小去了解最小處理就好尤其我們的人民法33條之一之二要誇獎啟出以上好 感謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：王委員早。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，最近教育部部長有說我們的國際交流不一定要限制於中國，不過在這個過程當中，我們的兩岸交流一定要有健康跟好感才能有交流？不過中國政府根本就不正常、不健康，我們要怎麼跟他有交流？在這個過程當中，海峽論壇從2009年辦到現在已經16年了，你們以前是說我們不去參加，不過最近你們是跟地方政府說不要去，且是強烈地說不要去、不允許他們去。主委，請解釋一下現在的轉變是怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的質詢，有關於海峽論壇，我們觀察那麼久，海峽論壇是中國大陸對臺統戰的一個平臺……"],["王委員美惠：很大的活動。"],["邱主任委員垂正：用來展現他對臺統戰的成果，是一種大交流、大合作的一個大平臺，每次參加的人數都非常的多，不過都在中國大陸設定的整個統戰活動裡面去展現他統戰的成果，對於我們國人赴陸去參加這個統戰平臺，我們是採取一種勸阻不要去，所以我們中央官員是完全禁止，那地方官員……"],["王委員美惠：那地方呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：地方政府我們也評估很多，因為我們過去都說……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！評估很多……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我跟委員報告，因為我們也有下鄉去跟地方政府溝通，有些地方政府跟我們說，過去我們不樂見地方政府去，講得太模糊了，可不可以具體一點？事實上我們的交流應該要去統戰化，你平時可以去，正常、健康、有序的交流，但是不要在人家設定的統戰平臺，去幫人家做統戰的捧場，反而會陷入到統戰的陷阱，風險也比較多，所以我們就希望他們不要去參加海峽論壇。除了他自己政務人員不要前往，他所屬的這些事業單位或是所屬的公務人員，地方政府決定的，也希望他們不要核准他們去。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席跟你探討這件問題的時候，下個月他們就要舉辦了，到目前為止地方政府有要去參加的，你掌握的有多少人？有哪一個縣市要去嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，截至目前為止，並沒有收到地方政府的申請，也跟委員報告……"],["王委員美惠：到今天、到昨天都沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：一件都沒有。"],["王委員美惠：這樣的話我們拭目以待，下個月看誰會去。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，其實大家去參加這個海峽論壇，它就是一個統戰的平臺，也經常口惠而實不至，使我們參加的人去那邊沒有什麼實益，而且相關的這些統戰的活動……"],["王委員美惠：不是，我現在是問你說，你們以前是建議、建議，而現在是強烈地說不要去、不要去，那下個月要舉辦的時候，你跟我回答說，到昨天、到今天，目前為止……"],["邱主任委員垂正：一件也沒有。"],["王委員美惠：一件也沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：我們就拭目以待，看下個月誰帶隊去參加啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，如果他有提出，我們也會跟他提醒風險，會勸阻他，如果他執意要去，我們還有一套規勸的……如果你一定要去的話……"],["王委員美惠：他如果不聽你的規勸，他就一定要去呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！我們就會跟他講……"],["王委員美惠：是就是表示還是有人去啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：主委，這樣的話……"],["邱主任委員垂正：截至目前為止是沒有。"],["王委員美惠：因為剩下的時間要申請還是來得及。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：所以你剛才的回答是說還是有人會去。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，有可能。"],["王委員美惠：那我們就來看誰會去，不要被人統戰，不要去把臺灣賣掉，既然那邊那麼好，乾脆把行李收拾好去那邊住、去那邊領薪水，不要常常在這邊糟蹋臺灣人。主委，那我們就拭目以待，到目前為止，你說還沒有人申請，那我們就來看誰會過去，因為6月馬上就到了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席要跟你說，上禮拜5月13日的時候，有一個新聞做得很大，說沙縣小吃來臺灣開了9間店，不過在這個過程當中，雖然開店開很多，以前也曾開過，不過這是國臺辦出來開記者會說讚的店，主委，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道，沙縣小吃在中國大陸都有類似的飲食、商家。"],["王委員美惠：不是，我現在是在問說，它來臺灣開業，國臺辦還開記者會稱讚它，這有可能未來是統戰嗎？雖然它是合法來臺灣做生意，但未來有可能會發生什麼事情嗎？我們要去預防，不然發生的時候……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會去了解，感謝委員提醒，不過沙縣小吃……"],["王委員美惠：我覺得我這樣問你，你還想說不知道是什麼事情，不知道會發生什麼，你還聽不懂！看你這樣子，好像還聽不懂其嚴重性在哪裡。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們現在有了解，它還是依法設立了……"],["王委員美惠：當然啦！我剛才就說它依法設立啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果在這個餐廳裡面有各種統戰或是不當的行為，我們也會依法查處，截至目前為止還沒有發現任何違法的事情。"],["王委員美惠：它有講到一個很嚴重的詞，就是兩岸一家親的煙火共鳴，主委，這些我們都要相當注意才行。當本席跟你說的時候，你作為陸委會的主委，應該對每個情況都要有所瞭解，說實在的，在所有的單位中，你們這個單位就是要保護臺灣的生存，這可是很嚴重的事。","主委，上禮拜本席在這裡講到武統藝人的時候，你有說要開始嚴格處理，但是在兩岸條例第三十三條之一的處罰裡面，我看來看去，發現我們從來都不曾處罰過藝人，總是想說那些藝人要賺錢溫飽也身不由己，但有些藝人也太過惡質了，在這個過程當中，更誇張的是，這些藝人對臺灣的認同還不及他們宣導中國的好。像這種狀況，我們未來真的要加強兩岸人民關係條例，很多立委都針對此提過案，但也退掉很多，在此我要請教主委，針對第三十三條之一、之二，你們會如何處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：感謝委員，我們已經跟文化部合組行政查處小組，正在進行必要的查處作為，最主要是藝人為什麼要在特定的時刻全體一致發布傷害臺灣的言論，或者是附和中共軍演的貼文，這確實不是自發的行為，我們要瞭解背後真正的事實是什麼，再來依法裁處、處分。"],["王委員美惠：主委，你們要趕快修正法案，就本席所瞭解的，我覺得你們太慢了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：要趕快處理才行。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。"],["王委員美惠：就像你們副主委梁文傑講的，我們如果訂出罰則，這些藝人會想到自己可能被罰，就比較不敢這樣做；如果你不開罰也不處理，他們就什麼都敢做。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：把國家賣掉，他們還賺得到利潤，有什麼不好？所以主委，為什麼本席講到這些就很憤慨？一個國家的民主要留下來是非常不簡單的，是靠著多少人的打拚才有今日自由的國家。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：就像剛剛講的，川普說的和平統一，講的是中美的關稅，你認為他是在講這些嗎？川普瘋瘋癲癲的，隨時想怎麼變就怎麼變，你認為他是對中國這樣說的嗎？來，主委你講一下。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，這個部分是針對中美經貿的問題，沒有涉及臺灣，美國國務院……"],["王委員美惠：沒有涉及臺灣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。美國國務院也正式說明這個跟臺灣沒有關係，而是美中談判經貿的問題。"],["王委員美惠：所以我也覺得很奇怪，他們美國和中國既沒有和平也沒有統一，怎麼會沒事講這個造成臺灣的混亂？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：所以他真的是麻煩製造者。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：他是生意人去當總統，什麼人對他有利益，他就會去處理，所以本席在此要說，什麼事情都有可能發生，本席跟你說的這幾件事，你們都要詳細去瞭解、仔細處理好，尤其是兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一、之二要趕快提出來。以上。"],["邱主任委員垂正：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}