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感謝"},{"start":1788.435,"end":1790.08,"text":"初期委員已逐法庭人數號現在開會"},{"start":1792.047,"end":1817.99,"text":"請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年10月14日星期一90至14時15分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員柯委員志恩等20人列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳"},{"start":1818.63,"end":1824.056,"text":"報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長經濟部就臺灣的碳備收費標準決議進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭子等31人提出質詢均經環境部部長"},{"start":1836.31,"end":1858.372,"text":"經濟部產業發展署署長楊志清及各相關主管等及其答覆委員賴會員業員之所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1862.742,"end":1866.724,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話我們議事錄確定那本日會議已成為邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢。現在我們介紹現場的委員跟列席官員陳昭之委員王振旭委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":1894.578,"end":1918.356,"text":"勞動部部長何佩珊部長勞動發展署署長蔡孟良署長勞工保險局白立貞局長勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長職業安全衛生署周梓蓮署長"},{"start":1920.798,"end":1929.149,"text":"勞動及職業安全衛生研究所李伯昌所長綜合規劃師王厚誠師長勞動關係師王厚偉師長勞動保險師陳美女師長"},{"start":1939.592,"end":1947.618,"text":"勞動福祉退休師 陳倩倩勞動條件及就業平等師 王維生勞動法務師 傅惠芝秘書處 丁玉珍人事處 江碧玲"},{"start":1966.775,"end":1972.857,"text":"政風處周志信處長、會計處林美信處長、統計處梅嘉源處長、資訊處劉淳坤處長、財產法人職業災害預防及重建中心何俊傑執行長"},{"start":1992.683,"end":1993.425,"text":"接下來請勞動部和部長報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2004.254,"end":2027.914,"text":"主席各位委員先進各位記者女士先生大家好謝謝委員會的邀請那麼我來向各位委員進行本部的業務報告那麼我們首先為了因應最近山頭额颱風的災後重建工作我們啟動了臨時工作津貼專案主動聯系地方政府調查零工用人需求"},{"start":2028.594,"end":2046.944,"text":"到10月7日地方政府提出有家園重建的用人需求一共是873人那還有包括前面0403地震跟颱風影響的勞工我們也持續依從優重塑重建的原則推動各項措施那麼擴大僱用獎助及訓練獎勵"},{"start":2048.171,"end":2055.212,"text":"也在這裡向災民以及勞工朋友致上最深的慰問與關懷期盼我們災區早日回復平安其次我們會落實賴總統520的談話有政府在勞保絕對不會倒為穩定勞保的財務擴大社會投資那麼我們也落實了在114年度的總預算"},{"start":2073.018,"end":2100.068,"text":"續編一千兩百億加計以後特別預算三百億元中最後一年執行的一百億元總共是一千三百億元的撥補勞保基金那麼總計我們從一百零九年度到現在六年以來一共撥補了三千八百七十億元搭配多元的投資運用方式那今年六月勞保基金餘額已經首度破造七月勞保基金整體收支順差"},{"start":2101.108,"end":2104.411,"text":"是22933億整體收支順暢那累計的基金累存餘額來到1兆1002億那麼截至今年8月整體勞動基金收益達到8870億收益率是14%"},{"start":2120.265,"end":2127.249,"text":"我在就任以後就提出撥補就是改革我不是來砍年金的那麼勞保基金目前處於相對安全的水位請廣大的勞工朋友不要擔心勞保絕對不會倒年金一定領得到那麼大家也不要強領極領也要疫情委員能夠支持並通過我們勞保的撥補預算"},{"start":2142.937,"end":2145.738,"text":"再來,我們要落實賴總統及卓議員長加薪的承諾照顧邊際勞工所以我在去上個月的9月4日主持最低工資審議會感謝我們所有勞資學證的審議委員充分討論合作"},{"start":2159.463,"end":2167.551,"text":"也一致支持以通過將在明年把月薪提升為28590元條幅為4.08%時薪也等比例調升為190塊那麼我要強調這次最低工資的調整有257萬的勞工受惠本國勞工占86%移工只有14%所以這不是只有移工受惠"},{"start":2182.566,"end":2197.232,"text":"那麼尤其我們對最低所得20%影響的家庭這是最好的照顧因為他薪水的一半都要拿來維持生活所需所以我們這是最低工資調整為了照顧邊際勞工的需求"},{"start":2200.253,"end":2210.276,"text":"也跟委員報告因應這次最低工資的調整中小為企業的承受能力也是我們最低工資審議委員會關注的重點所以我們小為企業在面對最低工資調漲的外在因素我們現在計畫透過數位轉型跟人才培訓幫助他們強化營運的體質所以我們也跟經濟部交通部共同提出了30人以下中小為企業的"},{"start":2225.5,"end":2234.082,"text":"數位轉型補助方案以救安基金部分支應由經濟部來執行輔導小微企業培訓員工數位技能與準保錄數位軟體應用保證穩定員工就業加速他的數位轉型升級其實我們面對服務業缺工的問題我們用擴大溜用橋外生開放橋外生從事旅宿服務業來處理我上任以後我就講缺工不能等於低薪"},{"start":2252.685,"end":2278.24,"text":"但是我們也會正面來面對積極來協助企業解決缺工問題尤其是服務業的缺工那主要因為我必須考慮青年以及中高齡主要的就業的領域都在這一塊那麼所以我們還要考慮外國人從事服務業他還有語言文化跟生活敏感性的問題在為了所以我用我們先用擴大流用牆外聲來處理我們已經在6月修法公告"},{"start":2279.501,"end":2303.171,"text":"條高評點至總分到200點。8月的時候刪除橋外生評點至名額上限,讓所有在現在在臺就學畢業的橋外生都可以留在臺灣就業。那也開放副學士以上的橋外生可以從事旅宿服務業的工作。未來我們也會配合國發會的攬財計畫,研議來修正就業服務法,讓橋外生可以申請個人工作許可來留臺。"},{"start":2305.087,"end":2323.099,"text":"9月我們也邀請了這一個勞資學證代表有來調整我們的移工政策鼓勵製造業承接國內已經有轉換雇主意願的移工就是我們所謂的即將成為中階人才的資深移工那麼他如果在國內承接5%的話他的總配額的限制可以提高為45%另外我們農業移工的部分也已經在擴大開放的8000名"},{"start":2335.506,"end":2357.592,"text":"韓去年的一萬兩千名總共已經到達兩萬名我們今年再擴大八千名的開放其實在擴大跨國勞動力開放的部分臺印的MOU的執行也是我一個重點工作那麼我們九月已經開始計畫邀請印方來臺進行工作的雙邊的工作的協商的這樣子的一個進度"},{"start":2359.551,"end":2373.314,"text":"再來我們這個會必須我們也鼓勵開發中高齡勞動力提升婦女勞參率也是我們的施政重點從109年中高齡專法到現在中高齡勞參率已經提升3%了今年8月大概是67.16高齡勞參率是9.84%我非常感謝貴院通過勞基法第54條修正案以及中高齡專法的再修正案"},{"start":2386.937,"end":2389.359,"text":"這對我們推動中高齡勞參率的提升有絕對的正面那麼我們也在今年8月30號公告放寬繼續雇用高齡者補助計劃可申請補助的禁用比例從不單一比例調整為三級制"},{"start":2403.75,"end":2414.243,"text":"除了現行的30%以外增列20%及25%兩個級距那麼我們最近本部累計在全國成立已經到達49處的銀髮人才服務據點也補助了83個部會據點"},{"start":2419.888,"end":2444.632,"text":"預計每年提升10萬名的中高齡以及高齡的勞動力其次是我們整體婦女的勞參率目前只有52%相對OECD國家還是比較低那因為照顧問題那麼造成45歲以後的中高齡婦女勞參率下降是非常嚴重的問題那麼我們計劃最近提出我們已經在在這個進行這個積極的"},{"start":2448.793,"end":2477.085,"text":"以及處理當中就是我們的多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計劃那麼規劃由公益專業團體監管跟優質仲介合作來聘僱外籍移工讓移工讓這樣的看護移工適用勞基法以一對多的方式讓陪伴服務照顧彈性化幫助婦女緩解照顧需求而且能續留在職場本計劃預計在年底前上路我希望能夠來提升婦女的勞參率"},{"start":2478.365,"end":2496.94,"text":"再來我們對培育青年即職人才非常的重視我在八月的九月九月的時候也帶領著我們國際青年的這樣子的我們的技能青年到法國里昂參加有技能界奧林匹克之遇的第47屆國際技能競賽"},{"start":2499.202,"end":2520.056,"text":"當然他們融獲了二金三銀十銅28優勝一共43面獎牌得牌率86%是近三年新高顯然我們的國我們我國青年的整體技職力傲視世界得牌的職類相當的廣泛那麼明年本部也在進一步舉辦亞洲技能競賽透過舉辦國際賽事讓臺灣技術接軌國際"},{"start":2524.219,"end":2542.054,"text":"也希望藉由以賽代訓打造學習用整合平臺深化產學合作進一步提升青年就業率再來是外送平臺外送員的勞動權益我們最近已經跟交通部合作那麼交通部也預告了研修汽車婚約管理規則把運費"},{"start":2545.999,"end":2557.217,"text":"計車運送員的運費的這個明定在這一個項目裡面那麼我們希望能夠未來作為外送工會跟外送平台業者來協商外送報酬的重要的依據"},{"start":2559.21,"end":2586.862,"text":"最後我們在這一個精進企業勞權相關的永續資訊方面也有進度在8月29號已經邀請經管會跟專家學者召開永續報告書的勞權永續資訊揭露已經獲得共識就是把薪資揭露非主管職務的全職員工的薪資平均數以及薪資中位數變動比都能夠未來在ESG的報告書裡面來揭露"},{"start":2588.002,"end":2614.608,"text":"再來是強化我們戶外的高溫勞工的保護那麼我們在8月1號修正發布的職業安全衛生設施規則那麼在戶外高溫維熱達到最高等級的時候部主應該在作業場所設置遮陽設施以及可降溫的設備並準備可休息的場所是以上非常謝謝委員們的邀請那麼以上就是我們最新的業務報告謝謝"},{"start":2616.701,"end":2640.929,"text":"好謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘那10點30分截止發言登記那委員如果有書面質詢的話請在會前提出與其不受理"},{"start":2641.357,"end":2654.043,"text":"那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時動議10點30分截止收案現在請登記第一位的委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請何部長何部長"},{"start":2665.823,"end":2666.023,"text":"臺電用了80億的"},{"start":2686.181,"end":2703.334,"text":"改建工程但是對於煤倉這種高危險的高風險的區什麼高風險的就是他對他可能產生城爆或者氣爆這種高風險區竟然驗出了一大堆不合格的防爆電氣管配件這件事情是很難令人諒解的那這件事攸關"},{"start":2705.956,"end":2723.427,"text":"整個場區還有附近鄰居的安全當然更攸關工作人員的生命安全我先把這個背景讓部長了解一下那我相信部長知道在根據國家的CNS3376標準他講得非常清楚爆炸性的環境你使用的金屬的這個"},{"start":2725.128,"end":2744.684,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2744.764,"end":2770.384,"text":"他的製造過程當中根據CNS14438標準他會加入這些金屬來提高他的求化率求化率高是好的這是基本的背景請看你讓部長繼續瞭解我們來看看這個防爆管這個配件的金屬材料要比什麼呢就是拉伸強度比一比大家可以看到這個圖最優秀的最好就是求墨鑄鐵但是他的標準是需要求化率"},{"start":2771.024,"end":2797.447,"text":"百分之八十以上這是最好的一個材質那它優於這個可斷鑄鐵但可斷鑄鐵不知道是不是因為這個環境的因素環保的因素所以國際上停產大概超過10年所以應該是買不到了那另外它又更優於灰口鑄鐵灰口鑄鐵是絕對不能用的因為它身強度不夠外面的那個水溝那個道路上的水溝蓋就是灰口鑄鐵做的"},{"start":2798.348,"end":2818.714,"text":"基本上它根本拉伸強度是不行的根本不能作為防爆管的配件那另外有一個剛剛我特別提到下面這個縮墨鑄鐵因為它含了那幾個金屬沒太高那這幾個金屬會幫助燃燒所以不能用所以部長一看大概就知道剩下什麼可以使用那我們來看看台電當時的採購要求"},{"start":2821.235,"end":2845.05,"text":"他這個要求是對的他要求可斷鑄鐵那可斷鑄鐵買不到了已經停產十幾年那鍍鑫鋼就是所謂的鋼鋼是可以用的甚至強度更好的這個球末鑄鐵那這個球末是目前最理想的材質我想這個部分是很重要那我要強調是說廠商交貨的時候他交給台電只能是貴部勞動部經過這個勞動部TS認證"},{"start":2848.692,"end":2852.417,"text":"要經過貴部來認證的可斷鑄鐵或窮木鑄鐵或是鋼要經過勞動部來認證那這樣關係就開始進來了那簡報上是今年的8月6日職安署到台電大林電廠去抽查"},{"start":2864.761,"end":2882.582,"text":"部長您可以看到抽了10樣幾樣不及格6樣不及格這非常嚴重這個深芳蒙玉這兩家產品不斷密封這個接頭圓形接線和油刃都被驗出有縮狀石墨縮狀石墨就是剛剛我談到的有含那幾個金屬"},{"start":2883.503,"end":2902.219,"text":"他是會助燃的那另外你可以看到這個鄭賀的這個鄭賀公司這邊有那個廠商的名字鄭賀的圓形接線盒出現兩種鑄鐵一個是灰口鑄鐵一個是球狀石墨鑄鐵球狀石墨鑄鐵是ok的可是灰口鑄鐵他的求化率是零欸"},{"start":2903.626,"end":2923.558,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2923.758,"end":2927.761,"text":"我要談的是勞動部負責TS認證那也有勞動部該負的責任就是說聽到這裡為止部長您覺得勞動部可以負起什麼樣責任因為畢竟TS認證是由貴部來進行的謝謝委員委員在追尋這個問題的時候我就有注意這件事我們也請我們職安署那麼我們在10月1號我們有把樣本的那個材質"},{"start":2953.103,"end":2969.401,"text":"出篩的報告含算給臺電要求他進一步送實驗室測試他的樣本材質那麼因為他疑似不當張貼啦他疑似不當張貼我們提了是安全就是假的他不合格貼的就是假的有有有這樣的問題喔那麼我們在10月1號把他移送檢調查處"},{"start":2974.787,"end":3002.243,"text":"我們已經主導移送檢調查處了我們也要求他10月8號還給他們的廠商要在45天裡面提出材質符合的檢測報告我的背景是藥學你知道食藥署在管理很多藥廠的時候他進了很多品質規範從早期的GMP到後來是GMP到現在PIX GMP都希望能夠跟國際接軌這第一個那他這個品質規範的目的是讓所有產品一致你不能說我去受驗的時候是最優質的"},{"start":3003.343,"end":3010.467,"text":"然後我最後製造的就另外一回事就是品質的一致性是非常高的那你對於有問題的廠商你不但平常要進行定期的查核而且要做不預警的甚至機動性的檢查因為他已經有前科了吧等等等等部長我讓你看一個法條"},{"start":3022.054,"end":3037.503,"text":"為什麼我覺得勞動部還是要負責任這個是機械設備器具形式檢定作業要點第12條第一項檢定機構受理申請後應為檢定並為必要之測試及生產技術品質一致性的查核"},{"start":3038.163,"end":3054.283,"text":"就是跟藥品管理概念一樣就是你給了他認證許可證你後續還有一些查核的這個動作所以我們到底就是說第一個到底廠商當時拿了golden sample就是最優質的產品讓你去檢驗呢那事實上生產的時候是另外一件事情"},{"start":3054.804,"end":3078.336,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3078.476,"end":3082.318,"text":"平常的時候他就應該要有一個必要的測試我們是應該要我們會來檢討好嗎我請這個治安署部長對我還是希望說研究有一個因為事實上那個蒙玉的產品下一張他驗收的時候是有送金屬中心"},{"start":3096.203,"end":3112.568,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3112.968,"end":3122.196,"text":"產品在裡面呢所以我想就是說勞動部一定要想辦法去避免這樣的事發生那我要談的是就是說8月6號的時候其實就發現產品不合格那事實上在2019年本黨的那個洪國昌委員他沒有提出一些在台電廠裡面有使用不合格的產品可是這個產品後來就說要去檢查要繼續去追查但是都沒有報告"},{"start":3138.53,"end":3160.325,"text":"所以部長是不是說最後一張我想說有關貴部的新聞稿就說那時候我們提出這麼重大的事件那是不是說貴部的新聞稿以後能夠就不要都說是檢驗單位不對是廠商不對是台電不對就是你能做的部分勞動部該做的部分就自己成全起來"},{"start":3169.731,"end":3170.951,"text":"有請我們何部長有請何部長"},{"start":3195.501,"end":3212.641,"text":"部長早 到2025年也就明年我們國家發展委員會預估我們已經要進入到超高齡社會再加上我們今年上半年度生的孩子大概只有6萬3876位"},{"start":3214.741,"end":3214.861,"text":"是當然"},{"start":3234.614,"end":3249.973,"text":"所以因爲少子化日益嚴重問題行政院推出了少子化的對策計畫在部會分工裏邊勞動部的任務就是有研議彈性條件跟提供性評價的一個薪資補助還有持續推動企業"},{"start":3252.176,"end":3280.401,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3280.802,"end":3289.495,"text":"的狀態有幾件?還有人員平均受雇的期間有多久?因為這個牽涉到數據我可以請我的同僚先來回答一下嗎?"},{"start":3291.209,"end":3317.931,"text":"是,感謝委員關心那個企業托育的部分那我們勞動部是配合衛福部這協助企業來設置相關的托兒設施比如說設幼兒園拉托嬰中心勞動部會給予補助那也跟委員報告一下這個113年我們補助的不管是設立那個托兒設施措施或者是提供托兒津貼都是一個友善職場的一個措施"},{"start":3318.692,"end":3346.543,"text":"我請你們回答的是到底有多少家我們補助了445家的企業去設立這個提供相關的托兒社事務措施那分別不同的因為我剛剛講有社區公共托育家園跟職場互助教保還有事實上是只有跟幼兒園簽約的這是不同的對那這個部分都是我們在新公法裡面所提供只要企業有提供因為他會看到依照企業員工的一個需求看是要用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":3347.183,"end":3361.613,"text":"來提供給員工相關的一些措施那我剛也問說有沒有發生所謂的勞資糾紛甚至受聘顧的時間有多長人員平均他托兒幼兒園的勞資糾紛我們這邊沒有相關的統計資料"},{"start":3368.218,"end":3397.237,"text":"我們這邊倒是可是這事實上是因為也是你們再少子話對這裡邊你們承擔該承擔的應該要充分掌握啦是因為服務提供者是人嘛多年因為私立幼兒園的教保人員勞動條件一直是沒有辦法擺脫低薪苛刻跟不當管理所引發的社會問題這是我覺得這是勞動部應該承擔因為既然事實上你們也是對這其中的一個部會裡邊要去承擔的那"},{"start":3398.82,"end":3406.23,"text":"因為這就是我們幼教人員的一個狀況我跟委員補充報告我們最近3年有針對學前教育業實施勞動條件檢查1170加次有108加次有違法"},{"start":3413.92,"end":3432.415,"text":"那麼有罰款的274萬所以我們先來看今年3月齁全國教保產業工會針對公部幼教人員的新生調查裏邊結果顯示58%要從事照顧之外的不列入工時的一個工作那"},{"start":3433.135,"end":3446.351,"text":"而且他們2020年就有調查今年我還等他們新的報告可是我們看到2020的調查的話私立幼兒園在工時上9點3小時是沒有包含午休代工時間43.7%工作超時10小時然後50%的未領取加班費或補休"},{"start":3454,"end":3477.119,"text":"32.6%的教保人員的勞保是被高薪低報的所以也要問我覺得我一直在提醒勞動部這也是我上個會期就有質詢的一個課題這事實上是一個血汗的職場那我們的孩子又要靠他照顧然後最後他因為血汗而可能有對孩子不當對待的情勢可能會發生所以這上個會期質詢之後我不知道勞動部有沒有提出一些因應的策略"},{"start":3478.032,"end":3499.929,"text":"那各位委員報告我們其實有辦理幼兒園勞動條件專案檢查有就是在從這幾年都有在做對然後這一個我們也希望因為幼兒園他又牽涉到教育部他其實也有要做的阿是是是當然當然當然有"},{"start":3501.57,"end":3501.89,"text":"大專院校"},{"start":3524.195,"end":3543.79,"text":"大概43所的院校裡面有120個幼保科系那每年大概有4200位的教保員因為我過去也在幼保系任教那幾乎很多時候我們的療動條件不好很多我的學生大概畢業後都去哪裡去新加坡因為五六萬的薪水跟臺灣事實上是很難相比加上我剛剛講那種療動條件這麼差"},{"start":3546.032,"end":3564.36,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3564.48,"end":3566.101,"text":"委員這樣好嗎?因為其實這件事我們應該要跟教育部一起來共同面對"},{"start":3583.354,"end":3606.055,"text":"因為它是一個幼兒產業它的一個經營形態會不會就是說這個可能也牽涉到這個部分還有包括我們在幼兒園的這樣子的可是部長如果你沒有去查勞動條件很不良的話就持續這個人員就是流失如果我去新加坡可以五六萬的薪水的話我帶台灣三四萬然後我要工時"},{"start":3606.596,"end":3607.036,"text":"午休待工時間"},{"start":3626.684,"end":3653.145,"text":"一直是被認定是應該是要認定是工作時間的時候所以不知道針對午休工作代工的問題桃園市政府已經先開始做了他2022年就自行做連續工作時間的事性司法性的認定所以時間該時間應該列入工時我根本沒辦法午休嘛小孩在睡覺可是我也沒辦法午休啊那為教保人員來領取更多工資加班費的依據我不知道這個可不可以"},{"start":3653.567,"end":3658.832,"text":"在一個月內也有全國性的一致的司法性的認定不知道部長這邊同意嗎"},{"start":3660.953,"end":3686.265,"text":"我們可以來做處理我們來對我們先我們來願意來來處理好嗎是那再來就是照顧比齁應該是一個法定的工作量這也是我上個會期一直在講說我就是只能照顧15個孩子可是我照顧到22個孩子這是幼教現場請你們勞動檢查的時候希望能夠去做這件事情可是始終都一直跟我講說喔這是教育部的事情可是教育部又不做勞動檢查所以我認為本席認為說"},{"start":3689.426,"end":3716.174,"text":"是不是你要跟教育部溝通還是事實上是你應該去承擔你畢竟事實上是我們的勞工者的最高的主管機關是不是應該要來做這件事情我們跟委員報告照顧比這是教育不定的啦因為他會基於他的這個幼兒的這樣的照顧需求那是不是應該那他這就是法定的一個工作量可是你們到了現場呢照顧22個你們大概也就漠然也就接受"},{"start":3716.534,"end":3730.165,"text":"可是問題我就是只能照顧15個甚至以孩子現在的狀況我們都希望下降到12個更何況是照顧22個可是幼教現場很常是照顧負擔比過於他的原來的法定可是你們在勞動檢查的時候並沒有針對這一塊去做查核所以我希望說未來是不是應該要查核"},{"start":3735.129,"end":3760.126,"text":"那因為我時間有限所以是不是公布也能夠公布教保幼教人員的的勞動契約範本來讓他們知道一般約定事項甚至特殊約定事項禁止事項救濟管道是什麼可以定在這邊那所以這4點希望午休的代工時間應列為連續的工作時間剛剛部長已經答應了那師生筆也請你們"},{"start":3761.227,"end":3786.869,"text":"跟我們的教育部商量要列入勞動檢查的方針是你們要做的事情那還有公佈幼教人員的勞動契約範本還有更重要的是我們希望推動我們的勞動契約約定的事項完整那就麻煩你們後邊給我書面報告好謝謝委員好謝謝林玉琴委員的發言謝謝何部長的答詢我們下一位請陳建輝委員發言"},{"start":3795.242,"end":3800.564,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早安那我也想請部長謝謝請何部長部長早部長你們把113年定定為這個營造業墜落打擊年並且呢希望我們的職災死亡人數要低於68人可是光是今年上半年就已經有40位營造的勞工墜落而且致死"},{"start":3823.795,"end":3833.864,"text":"半年的時間已經到了你們想要低於數字的六成那因為我就有上半年的數據您會知道到至今9月10月已經有多少人了嗎到9月底66所以距離你們的68所以今年你覺得可能沒有辦法了"},{"start":3845.629,"end":3862.427,"text":"我承認確實是有困難那麼我要給委員報告因為我們營建業他的有很多相關的問題必須要我們要來面對那麼包括我們要推動子彈法的修法也是這個原因他主要是第一個建築工程他現在就是大規模"},{"start":3863.428,"end":3867.912,"text":"我先給你看一下110年的時候你們也訂定了一個營造業減災加強年也是想要下降死亡結果跟你們今年的"},{"start":3891.329,"end":3914.462,"text":"這個營造業墜落打擊年一樣你只是有一個口號結果呢110年定了這個營造業減災加強年之後啊你看一下這個表的死亡人數定完了以後是越來越高我覺得本席比較難過的是這些人是中壯年他可能是一整個家庭的支柱然後你定了口號"},{"start":3915.202,"end":3933.709,"text":"你也定了目標你今天還把自己的目標設在68結果現在已經66人墜落死亡致死所以你110年111 112到底做了哪些事很顯然他沒有很很大的效果啊你現在是要告訴我說"},{"start":3935.49,"end":3945.218,"text":"113年你預計要修改哪一些環節而不是跟我描述說這些工程的複雜度有多麼的嚴重然後有多麼的缺工你應該是去從110年開始修改吧"},{"start":3949.179,"end":3966.094,"text":"對我跟委員報告我們就是這樣所以我們正在加緊推動自然法的修法我們希望能夠把這一個營造業裡面不當的工程文化啦因為他們大概用承攬嘛用承攬來規避責任然後這個有很尤其是最"},{"start":3966.815,"end":3987.524,"text":"最發胞的業主他本身所以你的意思是說有要承擔相關的責任他們有做教育訓練教育訓練的時數也符合你們的規定還是你們有去督導嗎其實那一些措施檢查各方面我們能做的都盡量都有在執行可是問題是你牽涉到他的那我跟您說一個數據後來你們去調查110年為什麼你們沒有辦法落實減災加強"},{"start":3994.967,"end":4022.868,"text":"是因為勞工未接受教育訓練者就有37人其中以建築工程的27人為最高都已經告訴你答案了啊是這也是也是相關的問題啊因為你要刻意這一個施工者可是這個你不用等職安法修法你應該就可以做到現在有在做可是現在有在做顯然還不夠那你有把今年這66位的原因都已經列出來了嗎"},{"start":4023.869,"end":4049.592,"text":"我們有在分析當然裡面移工比例也很高所以對尤其是移工他的職災的發生率本來就比較高所以我們現在也在強化移工的這個關於職安位的這個母語這方面的界面的提供對希望能夠給他一些教育訓練所以你的意思是說之前你們沒有做他的母語的職安前面就有做前面就有做所以你現在是現在還要再更強化"},{"start":4050.753,"end":4060.082,"text":"顯然在這方面因為大概我們今年分析了一下移工跟一般的比例大概是8比5所以這66位有八成是移工"},{"start":4063.321,"end":4089.458,"text":"跟委員報告其實發生這些災害這些勞工沒有做教育訓練我們有發生這個問題所以我們擴大了營造業的那個愛情教育訓練我們發指案卡訓練合格才讓勞工到現場工作但是臺灣很多中小型的微型工程包括是冷氣安裝或是物理安裝都小型微型工程確實我們有利有味道這個部分我們正在檢討所以我們跟地方政府勞檢機構跟地方的"},{"start":4089.838,"end":4110.913,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4112.022,"end":4132.469,"text":"那個我們很快要進行預告那麼希望能夠在年底能夠送到行政院然後下會期出好下會期來進行來立法院雖然你已經確認你這個是跳票了但是我還是希望你從現在到12月不要再給我們一個很驚人的數字好嗎有些事情現在就可以做了對好下一個"},{"start":4135.575,"end":4152.31,"text":"我們看一下這個是今年9月的新聞相信部長也知道有一個美國醫旅協會他有很多的廠商是我們臺灣的廠商嘛大家都知道Nike這一類的好發布了一篇聯合全國全球50個知名服飾很多都在臺灣做的"},{"start":4153.931,"end":4167.126,"text":"那他是不是寄錯對象他居然是寄給經濟部而不是給勞動部他裡面都是提到臺灣的移工呢為了取得工作的機會在母國就要支付高額的仲介費用抵達臺灣以後還要繼續支付"},{"start":4168.928,"end":4193.694,"text":"服務費阿等等的這些沉重的債務讓他們沒有辦法在勞動環境中發聲包括行動受限阿或者是他們的文件被扣押超時提出申訴抱怨工作環境差也沒有辦法集會也沒有辦法因為懷孕或試圖轉換雇主而遭到遣返等等的所以他在這個信裡面講到都已經涉及我們國際勞工組織提出的強迫勞動指標"},{"start":4197.535,"end":4203.561,"text":"如果沒有好好的處理 我們有可能會受到一些國際大廠的制裁 這點您同意嗎這一點我要跟委員澄清本國沒有強迫勞動 那麼我們針對這一個指控 我們也發出了信用稿澄清對 因為我們也跟經濟部一起會同 因為這是這樣這是一個民間組織"},{"start":4221.597,"end":4223.659,"text":"台灣現在的移工人權真的是數一數二啦"},{"start":4239.853,"end":4257.649,"text":"就是我們你想想看我們在我們的移工一樣是用勞基法場工我們的家事移工我們也要求比如說像招募費方面我們我懂我懂所以我把您的新聞稿叫出來你隔天就緊急發出一個新聞稿你的意思是說"},{"start":4258.389,"end":4285.871,"text":"包括我國的法令禁止我國仲介向移工收取登記費用也建議外國政府降低外國仲介的費用還有與來源國合作推動職聘制度這是你寫的新聞稿喔我想問說具體你是建議哪幾個外國政府那你的建議他們是否有去做呢因為建議是一回事啊有有有四個來源國我們都在跟他雙邊協商當中而且菲律賓跟印尼"},{"start":4287.893,"end":4295.785,"text":"印尼都已經有職聘的我們的雙邊的協商的這樣子的一個好那我們放上次部長說的幫我放一下"},{"start":4300.478,"end":4319.673,"text":"上次您的執聘是這個意思欸所以我也想知道還是你要續聘的時候才要做這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的不容易"},{"start":4321.014,"end":4344.566,"text":"我指的是印度所以你其他4個來源國你的意思是說你從一開始進來你就願意加強執行那他們的仲介費用你下降了多少比例呢仲介費用我們台灣是不能收的我說你建議外國政府這是你的新聞稿寫的那個是我們會建議來源國你最多就一個月"},{"start":4345.646,"end":4368.468,"text":"那他有做嗎?因為你有建議他有做嗎?我知道對可是因為你要回應這些國際組織嘛所以我也必須要知道說他有沒有給你回饋嘛是有我們的雙邊國每一位那個代表來拜訪我們或者是我們去跟他們智商的時候我們都拜託這件事情之後我會繼續追"},{"start":4370.029,"end":4372.63,"text":"這件事情那這邊也給您一個很具體的建議這是我們國內的一個很大的廠商傳產他是第二代那他被國外的客戶呢視察以後說要跟他斷絕這個合約他本來以為是勞工環境結果是人資這個國外的廠商覺得呢我們每個月還有跟這些移工收費是不合理的"},{"start":4394.039,"end":4402.592,"text":"那他說比如說你收到這個全球衣旅你有沒有發公文去給我們所有臺灣的這些衣服相關的廠商有嗎"},{"start":4403.963,"end":4416.246,"text":"這就是我們要跟經濟部要來加強這方面的合作委員我要跟您澄清其實這個是企業面臨的困境我們應該是就是我是給你具體的建議因為他有他自己的解方他自己的訪談寫得很清楚他說他本來不知道這件事勞動部也沒告訴他後來呢因為他有在國外留學所以他查了一些法規他發現的確違反了"},{"start":4428.109,"end":4449.145,"text":"所以他後來跟仲介合作所有仲介要收取的費用是他自己來出喔所以每一位移工他總共工廠有600位100位移工他每個人幫他們出兩萬多塊結果變成他跟仲介的關係非常好仲介會派專人來服務跑文件跑流程會帶他們去看病然後他還幫他們蓋宿舍"},{"start":4450.706,"end":4466.452,"text":"結果他現在這些續約率從原本25%增加到75%也大幅下降他的管理成本因為他不用一直在換人後來他因為這樣子做也增加了美國之外很多歐洲開始跟他簽訂單所以"},{"start":4468.493,"end":4487.659,"text":"他已經在自救了那既然你已經收到這些外國組織是不是也應該提醒我們國內的廠商不然他的報導裡面是在寫說他一開始被國外廠商批評的時候他根本就不知道有這些事情甚至仲介還跟他說你就回說有啊你有幫他出這樣就好了"},{"start":4488.618,"end":4488.978,"text":"接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":4524.062,"end":4526.183,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長部長好,今天我關心的也是職安的問題因為我們可以看到這幾年來職安的傷亡人數是不減反增特別是在去年這個傷病給付的件數其實是創新高死亡給付的件數也是創新高"},{"start":4550.034,"end":4560.362,"text":"所以其實我在上半年的時候就針對這個問題提出質詢那當然在當中你看到今年特別是上半年只在死亡人數120人當中營建業他還是佔了第一名"},{"start":4564.773,"end":4580.528,"text":"他的這個墜落死亡還是重重之重我們想要優先去處理的問題那你們其實自己也提出了上半年你們就說你們仿造日本有這個迎劍墜落打擊年這個口號其實是很響亮"},{"start":4582.149,"end":4602.218,"text":"這個大家對你們的期許也很高但是執行下來你們前陣子已經對外講了就是今年設定的目標要減少的死亡人數是68人以下但是現在看起來光是到6月份就已經來到40人了所以其實如果按平均半年半年來看"},{"start":4603.058,"end":4620.564,"text":"今年恐怕是破功了沒有辦法打到這樣一個目標那你們有沒有去檢討為什麼其實你們特別今年還有一個墜落打幾年這樣一個計畫那反而越做這個墜落人數還要比去年就是比你們設定的目標更高為什麼會這樣"},{"start":4622.537,"end":4639.997,"text":"委員跟您報告我們的人數是有比去年降低可是問題是確實沒有達到我們今年設定的原因在哪裡我想知道你們自己初估的原因在哪裡是剛剛就是跟我們報告確實因為包括營建業本身他的這樣的"},{"start":4641.118,"end":4657.227,"text":"．"},{"start":4658.769,"end":4688.129,"text":"在關於那個承攬責任上面我們第一個希望最源頭的業主也要負起共同的責任那麼再來他們營建業會有一種平行發包的文化用這樣來規避責任就各自負責啦我們現在要當你平行發包之後你一定要指定其中一個要負主要責任然後統合管理這樣子我們要找一個頭出來要不然每個人都說沒他的事這樣子對那所以你們現在的墜落打局裡面你們的宣導對象是誰你們找不到頭"},{"start":4689.43,"end":4709.509,"text":"目前在實施上面,你們到底是找誰?當然是有,就是各營造工地,然後各業主,我們甚至都把營造業找來對,都還跟他們開,就是喝咖啡,然後勸導他們因為其實這個數字會說話嘛,這個證明說你今年上半年施行到現在,恐怕是有漏洞,也不夠落實"},{"start":4710.71,"end":4734.313,"text":"雖然你說你們有在做那這個就應該要檢討所以那個檢討不只是你要說你要去修這個治安法那個是原水啦那進火的部分你們自己應該要通盤檢討到底你們在落實上面出現了什麼問題執行上面是不是都沒有到位你們說有做但是沒有到位嗎你們去宣導記得上班裡面說你們做了很多冊子冊子可能沒有人在看啊"},{"start":4735.114,"end":4758.465,"text":"就是他沒有進到他真正的SOP裡面這個才是問題所以我要求你們要檢討接下來我就要讓你看到這個個案這個是在雙十國慶我們覺得很遺憾大家在歡度中華民國的國慶但是在雲林產生了重大公安他其實是兩家工廠一死一傷而這兩位都是外籍義工"},{"start":4759.325,"end":4780.716,"text":"死亡的跟受傷的都是外籍移工而這兩家工廠它的特性它都是那種輸送袋然後有一家是這個水泥預辦廠那這個水泥預辦廠我們去找出這個資料這一家水泥預辦廠它是累犯了它過去在職安裁法的紀錄上面累計已經達到4次了"},{"start":4781.741,"end":4810.46,"text":"那他從2022年就開始2023年2024年今年的1月今年1月還有受到處分喔然後在今年10月這個勞工好險後來他的頭沒有被整個殺死埋掉如果埋掉的話恐怕也是救不回來就是非常的危險所以你可以看到像他這樣類型的公司屬於高風險而且你們已經累累次去裁罰他"},{"start":4811.42,"end":4833.768,"text":"但是在我們職安法36條像類似這樣子的他如果沒有改善或是有發生職業災害安全之餘是可以要求他部分或全部停工但是我看你們前面其實都沒有處理是到10月份這個新聞爆出來比較嚴重之後你們才要求勒令停工"},{"start":4834.528,"end":4857.195,"text":"你們說你們要修職安法那我就問你們光職安法36條你們的這一些職安的檢查措施裁罰停工你們有落實嗎像這樣子的一個公司工廠它其實是高風險你們到底是怎麼輔導改善的而從今年的1月到現在的10月這當中你們又做了什麼"},{"start":4858.544,"end":4860.606,"text":"他真的有改善嗎?"},{"start":4860.606,"end":4884.805,"text":"這個個案你瞭解嗎?我可以先請我的署長可以來署長請謝謝委員循詢這樣子的一般火流場確實是它有一定的風險程度我們過去檢查涉及它如果是有立即危險之餘就會停工那如果沒有涉及危險之餘我們相關法條就處於裁罰3到30萬的條條依照它程度不想增加這是我們一定的標準作為程序那這個個案10月10日當天我們統一就去做現場的災害調查"},{"start":4885.806,"end":4912.245,"text":"因為他是在做混凝土的打除的時候老公跟著人跟沙子一起掉進去倉裡面所以後來來搶救人就完沒有受傷就把他救回來但是我們發現這個作業程序這個場域商業做就有風險所以我們就把針對這個場域就給他做局部停工所以這個案是像這樣處理的那我們也謝謝委員給我們提醒很多事情我們這個停工處分的那個界線如果我們要再定往嚴格一點我會再召集各檢察機構來做這樣子"},{"start":4914.404,"end":4943.343,"text":"這個這個才發現的一些討論是不是能夠再做更加強有些委員提醒我覺得齁這個治安署你們應該要針對勞動職場環境他的這個風險你們是要分級的有些就是高風險像這種有輸送帶的絕對是高風險另外那一起死亡的案例他也是輸送帶他是垃圾回收場他人已經被攪拌那多麼恐怖的事情啊就是他那個整個執行的過程當中沒有一刻你是可以就是有疏忽的一疏忽"},{"start":4943.883,"end":4957.308,"text":"人不是重傷就是死亡所以類似這一種他只要犯過一次第二次你們就要很嚴格那這一家已經是第4次了所以我覺得你們實務上在第一線的執行坦白講不是只有修法的問題了你們連落實上面SOP的管控上面怎麼樣把這些高風險你說你們後來抓出了銀件業這是一類高風險你們有一個墜落打擊你"},{"start":4969.153,"end":4995.999,"text":"就是按照這個風險程度去做我贊成用這樣的方向做但是像這種有輸送帶的工廠又是這種水泥工廠或是垃圾資源回收只要有發生過這種死亡重大的你們都應該要回過頭好好去檢視你們的整個就是去督導改善的SOP是不是還有漏洞是不是過於寬鬆你如果過於寬鬆業者不會有警覺"},{"start":4997.421,"end":5017.082,"text":"但是這件事情我覺得是嚴重的就在國慶日一死一傷都是輸送帶而且另外一個我要提醒移工的教育他們的這個職業安全的教育恐怕都沒有到位這種高風險的工作現場現在都是讓移工去做結果又沒有給他一個安全的準備我覺得這個是不對的"},{"start":5018.829,"end":5019.049,"text":"接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":5054.597,"end":5082.198,"text":"主席好,我們一樣請何部長您好部長您好我請問一下我這兩天看到的新聞就是關於台電外包商引進移工的問題那台電有台電的說法勞動部也有勞動部的說法那我第一個問題電器成裝業可以請移工嗎目前是不行的那"},{"start":5083.252,"end":5086.679,"text":"銀罩業在一定條件下可以申請移工,那電氣盛裝業是銀罩業嗎?"},{"start":5095.686,"end":5119.411,"text":"螢照業在一定條件下可以申請移工那電氣盛裝業是螢照業嗎?它是屬於螢照業嗎?它屬於廣泛的營建工程的一環可是它的問題出在它必須考那個照那是目前公司沒有辦法考你們說台電配電的外線工程是公共工程在符合公共工程的金額跟工期就可以申請移工"},{"start":5120.412,"end":5133.688,"text":"但是所謂的配電外送是由電氣承裝業承攬那本身電氣承裝業的工作人員限制就很多照你們的說法只要是公共工程、承包金額、供期符合其他都沒有關係是嗎?你們的廣義是這樣定嗎?"},{"start":5135.29,"end":5141.797,"text":"委員這一種他所聘的移工只能從事體力工作不能從事這一種要考照的這種電器裝配的這樣的工作這就是為什麼我要委員跟你解釋我們跟台經濟部現在協商的重點就是"},{"start":5150.567,"end":5162.652,"text":"我們只開允許台電已經引進這一種基層的體力工的移工對不對他也許待久了他變資深移工那他有一定程度的語言溝通能力之後我們可以輔導建議台電可以輔導他們考照來轉而從事這一種電氣成裝業的這樣的工作啦"},{"start":5169.654,"end":5190.97,"text":"我們只開放到這裡對我看到是這樣就是說你說如果不是的話直接引進我們的我們的那個執行管路工程做勞力活這個大家都知道是那配電外送是電氣承裝業承攬你們一直談的就是配電外線的部分要讓台電的這個包商可以請移工去修護台電的這些電纜設備不然這個台電啊"},{"start":5195.873,"end":5217.707,"text":"這個外包商早就可以申請移工了那為什麼我們經濟部還跟我們勞動部來求援呢委員他們現在確實這方面是缺人啦對啊我要講的意思就是說你們你們就是你們我看到新聞就是說你們這兩天講的你還是告訴他這個這個"},{"start":5221.269,"end":5242.843,"text":"你沒有辦法幫忙他嗎?我沒有辦法現在直接去允許他從外面直接引進移工然後進來做這種要考照要上電線桿的工作我現在還沒有開放這個那我問你啊那台電一天到晚被這個動物在攻擊啊那不過人維修怎麼辦?不是常常這樣嗎?"},{"start":5245.546,"end":5273.28,"text":"其實委員跟您報告就是我們現在就建議說第一個他這個本身的過去臺電都有建交合作啦就綁本國的記職生嘛其實早年他們都這麼做的當然現在可能我們本國的記職生不夠所以我們希望他能夠去信一些朝外生來對我剛剛有講嘛我們增加四類嘛增加英語、泰語跟越南語還有印尼輔助語這些技術性的徵兆那我想請問一下你是考中文還是考他們的母語考用他們母語考"},{"start":5275.078,"end":5297.157,"text":"就是這個就是用他們的母語也可以輔助考這個就是便利讓他臺電現在有的已經要成為中階技術人才的資深移工考啦所以他考了這些證照之後就能夠可以擔任這個技術的工作委員我要跟您報告這一種功能的重點在於說因為他認定的標準是什麼就是你只要考試考過了就可以"},{"start":5298.387,"end":5301.609,"text":"所以到時候我們在進行考核的時候就是說我們在考核他們的時候我們的人也都要懂他們的母語"},{"start":5326.769,"end":5335.078,"text":"啊不是不是不然我們怎麼查是他要幫我們的的是我們用母語所以所以他你沒有你不是用中文考啊"},{"start":5336.895,"end":5360.142,"text":"有中文可是也同時有母語的輔助啦就是翻翻譯有翻譯的文字在旁邊這樣我因為這是關於安全的問題對對對對對我覺得說未來你們要怎麼查核怎麼樣去讓這個事情執行的更好我想我們也是因為這樣所以我們對這個開放非常的慎重我現在就是沒有開放他直接從外面另外剛剛我也看到就是說他"},{"start":5361.543,"end":5381.881,"text":"我們也擔心說我們培養了這些人才那萬一他留不住這個通過拿到證照之後跑掉怎麼辦這就是台電要去努力的啊可能要比較高的薪水或者是他台電其實是願意花多一點錢的啦他在花錢培育培養沒錯那我擔心的是這些人才我們留不住"},{"start":5383.218,"end":5397.15,"text":"對 這就是我們企業要去努力的好啦 那我們大家一起努力啦好不好剛剛我講那些問題還請部長你回去還是要多注重一下他們在執行上安全的問題那另外我再來請問一下我們114年的中央總預算整體評估報告裡面"},{"start":5402.354,"end":5422.232,"text":"其中有一點就直接點出我們勞保基金財務的壓力那它裡面講到移進數完成周妥財務改善的方法及法制的作業你們的業務也報告也說未來工作的重點也是這個要開源維持這個勞保財務的穩健那我看到從109年開始"},{"start":5424.614,"end":5450.305,"text":"就撥補113年114年都編了1200億又額外編列300億預算分了3年等於這幾年我們中央總共補助了3870億元所以這個這個金額是非常嚇人的那我看到你們的穩健的財務的方式大概是撥補想辦法增加保險的人口還有投資調整保費看起來這個撥補還是佔大部分"},{"start":5452.727,"end":5457.421,"text":"今年13百億明年13百億然後呢未來怎麼辦一直補嗎"},{"start":5458.715,"end":5476.871,"text":"委員我們現在補了3870億之後今年的餘額已經來到一兆一千億了所以目前基金很安全對所以這是有成效的而且撥補的成效是占主要的那世界各國委員世界各國都是這麼做的並不是說以後不會出問題我們審慎處理他"},{"start":5484.775,"end":5503.2,"text":"委員當然就是因為可能會出問題說我們一定要博補所以你說你現在很安全只是你任期內很安全對不對你是不是這樣講你的任期內只要我卸任了之後就沒有我的事了不是這個意思委員我們要對我們政府有信心這是永續發展的任何黨派執政即便政黨在輪替我想都可以兩個部會兩個在比誰的洞比較大"},{"start":5511.727,"end":5517.23,"text":"一百一十二年我看到你們的那個那個調整的方式就是一百一十二年的勞保費率是12%兩年條一次"},{"start":5533.148,"end":5538.391,"text":"我們現在11.5現在11.5明年會調到11.5明年調到11.5那114年就要調到多少?12我們那個天花板是13對吧?我們那個天花板是12家舊寶才13那就是12嘛也就是說我們在賴總統的任內就會達到就有能夠衝到天花板"},{"start":5562.801,"end":5567.667,"text":"我們明年就是要邁入這個超高齡的社會那未來給付的年金會越來越多"},{"start":5577.598,"end":5578.378,"text":"部長您的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5593.444,"end":5611.249,"text":"委員我們已經在改革了我們除了撥補以外當然我們也透過希望能夠推動比如今年委員也共同推動了勞基法54條的修正案我們希望能夠一方面推動中高齡就業然後有推動自然延退部長請還是要多趕快把辦法想出來盡量然後盡快改善這個問題好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5622.063,"end":5644.714,"text":"我再問一個問題好了,我們看到80歲以上的巴斯量表的解套,我看到我們的對象裡面有一個被看護者80歲以上且有長期就醫記錄者,這個就以後免巴斯量表對不對?"},{"start":5646.536,"end":5669.526,"text":"那是委員的修法案對,我們現在提的嘛,對不對?您會朝這個方向走嗎?我們比較不希望用年齡來劃分,因為用年齡來劃分的話會導致...那你這裡面為什麼會有...你們寫的裡面為什麼會寫80歲以上呢?是我們修法的問題嗎?這個不是...這是80歲以上長期有就醫嘛"},{"start":5671.781,"end":5695.637,"text":"對他是有那個真正有病啦他還是要以有病為其實80歲的誰會沒病呢那很少啦那那這個這個我講就是說我想要問的就是說你長期的就醫是指一般的慢性疾病還是怎麼樣這個定義在哪裡對慢性疾病就高血壓糖尿病這種的對有那個要跟就是衛福部我們一起訂這個就醫的標準對不對"},{"start":5700.336,"end":5714.351,"text":"這個是還在研究當中啦還在跟衛福部聯誼這是在擴大多元免貧好不好盡快把這個事情打明清楚謝謝主席下一位我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":5731.108,"end":5756.015,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們何部長來前部長部長你好根據今年第4次人力需求的調查勞動部辦理的收集7月底工業跟服務業的懸缺半年以上未補時的全時的這個工作職缺對不對調查指出約有6.6萬個職位半年以上找不到人那其中製造業2.1萬"},{"start":5758.397,"end":5758.577,"text":"應對措施"},{"start":5769.2,"end":5787.897,"text":"委員我們這個調查其實是比較有意義的是他是在這個技術人力方面但是部長我想問有沒有什麼措施因為這個超過半年的基本上應該就是一個結構性的問題吧暫時性我覺得OK嘛但是我們可以理解但是這個長時間的"},{"start":5789.651,"end":5811.904,"text":"是當然委員對就是我們當然缺工已經很久了啦對那麼我們希望能夠更精確的掌握是缺什麼樣的工這就是我們這次調查的用意我跟委員報告我們這次調查比較有意義的是基層體力工其實不缺啦他比較缺的是這一種中階的技術人力所以說要怎麼改善"},{"start":5812.784,"end":5817.908,"text":"我們現在所以委員我從8月以來我們進行一連串包括中階技術人才的放寬包括我們對放寬橋外生他能進旅宿業然後也開放我現在已經有提案到國發會開放客運司機醫院護佐"},{"start":5834.4,"end":5847.427,"text":"身對這些各別的職業別那我們講個大方向啦就是基本上後面你們這次出來的數據也有一些方向我要建議給這個我們部長大部分當然就是"},{"start":5848.562,"end":5867.989,"text":"當然少子化國安的問題這是已經很久了這個缺缺勞動力這是一個很久問題可是你馬上要改善的話就幾個方向嘛比如說提供提高我們婦女的勞參率還有中高齡退休後的就業嘛對不對好那我就進一步再跟你討論一下這個中高齡就業的部分喔"},{"start":5868.869,"end":5892.078,"text":"其實單就中高齡就業的部分有很多有形跟無形的年齡歧視我這邊提供幾個數據根據這個勞動部的2021年的工作場所的就業平等概況的調查受僱者在職場上遭受歧視的樣態以年齡歧視占比最高那55歲以上工作者有9%曾經因為年齡遭受就業歧視"},{"start":5893.078,"end":5906.427,"text":"那這個yes123的部分的調查有顯示說中高齡及這個高齡者的就業促進法上路以後有57.4%的人感覺是無助於改善被歧視的情況那麼還有遠見"},{"start":5910.01,"end":5930.649,"text":"遠見臺灣影像超高齡社會大調查再問到是否認為感受到職場對於中高齡有差別待遇時只有16.3%表示完全沒有感受到反之有83%感受到年齡差別待遇前三大差別待遇包含升遷加薪機會變少"},{"start":5932.566,"end":5937.07,"text":"指揮一倍調動或降接30%所以我想要問的說這樣不友善的職場會不會變成這個中高齡就業的障礙"},{"start":5946.656,"end":5963.745,"text":"確實我們這個中高齡就業的歧視我們相當重視其實在我們中高齡專法裡面就有一個懲罰條款就是說你不可以用年齡歧視去支錢或支退人喔那你如果被檢舉的話那麼你可以被罰30萬以上到150萬以下的罰款你其實現在是這樣喔在職場的調查現在調查起來還是感覺到"},{"start":5969.628,"end":5970.37,"text":"是一個文化啦當然當然"},{"start":5981.007,"end":6004.526,"text":"我承認這確實是一個文化現象對所以其實勞動部自己也去統計去年你們裁罰的可能這個40件就有逾千萬元的罰金破千萬所以這個其實嚴重嚴重是很嚴重的事情那這也會有礙於我們發展這個部分中高齡就業的部分那我想要請問部長你有沒有什麼改善的措施或是你認為接下來還可以怎麼做"},{"start":6005.006,"end":6006.668,"text":"對目前有沒有什麼改善方案或者是計劃"},{"start":6019.554,"end":6020.915,"text":"另外就業調查中還有工業部門缺額46.2%"},{"start":6046.132,"end":6047.333,"text":"會不會有因為不夠重視技職培育重要性所導致?或者是請問你們怎麼鼓勵這個技職教育?"},{"start":6064.262,"end":6085.393,"text":"謝謝委員其實我上任以來在這方面花了很大的心力我們在全國技能競賽你想想看我們這些包括從全國技能競賽到參與世界性的技能競賽我們培育的這些國手他們雖然獲得那麼多獎甚至獲得的職位非常的多可是他們在進入到社會的時候"},{"start":6086.994,"end":6095.519,"text":"在這邊可能也是有他的落差對沒錯這個就是我們現在要來著力處理的部分對沒錯其實我們技職的這些體系的選手們要參加這個技職奧運之稱的國際技能競賽對不對對所以你說的很好我們43面獎牌在全球排名第4名"},{"start":6104.344,"end":6125.477,"text":"但是這個今年而且甚至在今年國慶的時候繼職的這些選手跟這些巴黎奧運的國手也一同出席我們國慶大會然後巡禮接受國人喝彩那總統的這個國慶文告也特別大讚兩位奪金的繼職奧運冠軍所以我想部長應該也是為他們驕傲啦覺得他們相當優秀對吧"},{"start":6126.337,"end":6150.323,"text":"好那沒錯那我們勞動部也有發新聞稿說他們是臺灣之光即職英雄那也相信他們是未來我們的這個工業部門勞動力的勝利軍喔非常好的一個勝利軍喔但是卻有選手向媒體投訴說勞動部大小眼一開始不讓他們參加巡禮讓有奪牌即職的這個選手們覺得自己不如沒有奪牌的這個"},{"start":6151.443,"end":6167.484,"text":"澳運選手而即便在勞動部爭取後巡禮的環節已經讓這些技職選手都有參加但是最後擅長的時候還要他們自己打捷運離開那相較於其他有入場的選手我專車接送這個大小也很明顯"},{"start":6168.425,"end":6182.923,"text":"所以這個你們口口聲聲說很重視但是實際行為卻是這樣子所以我想要請問部長當事務到底有沒有積極爭取呢就是說這些技職的選手他們離場的時候有沒有這些待遇你有沒有去意識到還要幫他們爭取"},{"start":6187.04,"end":6191.062,"text":"其實總統非常重視所以總統是所以我才說總統都很重視可是你們最後的卻遺漏到這個其實絕對沒有大小眼的問題選手出門比賽但你們單人房卻給行政人員住選手跟翻譯住雙人房卻住雙人房"},{"start":6209.594,"end":6227.311,"text":"那這就會很像當初的東奧一樣東奧選手一樣官員做商務艙選手做經濟艙那我覺得這個是我要提醒部長你們要注重這些細節不然上次的這個東奧事件就有一個就有一個長官下台了對吧"},{"start":6229.017,"end":6242.862,"text":"了解是那所以我要表達的事情說你們嘴巴上說的重視請真的也落實到各個地方因為技職教育體系的確是我們現在很需要發展的一個環節是好"},{"start":6245.063,"end":6270.54,"text":"那最後其實我想要在本來是想要明天再問今天就有時間再多問一下這個其實如果勞工願意在法定的範圍內加班那某種程度上也是讓這個勞資雙方能夠靈活調度人力但是根據我們財政部的這個臺財稅的第16713號的函解釋就加班46小時以上不能免稅"},{"start":6271.823,"end":6296.933,"text":"那換句話說勞工願意努力加班那僱主也願意讓勞工加班卻因為這樣的規定降低了勞職雙方在加班上面的意願和協調那我們都說越努力那越幸運要拼才會贏但到頭來卻越努力繳越多的稅金那這個部分有沒有可能請勞動部來代表勞工跟我們的財政部協調重新解釋認定免稅範圍的可能性呢"},{"start":6298.34,"end":6320.856,"text":"委員因為這個這一種就是當然啦所得是一定要課稅啦憑良心講那麼因為這個稅收也是國家財政的一部分但是這個部分就是一個邏輯上的問題啊就是他們就是因為真的需要加班而且委員這有一個悖論喔我們如果因為我們事實上我們的加班上限就是46小時除非說有雙方協商才能再超過46"},{"start":6321.937,"end":6348.268,"text":"那我們如果勞動部主動去幫46以上的這好像是我們在鼓勵加班嗎?但是現在就是因為很多勞工反映說他們需要加班嘛他們需要加班賺這些錢但是他變成是他想要賺錢那因為僱主也願意讓他加班的情況之下我們當然是就是說他們雙方都有這個意願而不是僱主逼迫他的情況之下他有意願加班的情況之下對不對那他就是需要錢嘛"},{"start":6349.048,"end":6349.068,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":6380.1,"end":6382.842,"text":"好謝謝下一位我們請蘇清泉委員謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":6395.78,"end":6409.706,"text":"我今天問你兩個問題第一個就就業安定基金第二個是東港的漁船的漁工第一個就業安定基金在第8屆議委的那個時代開始那個時候的規模差不多5億6億"},{"start":6413.408,"end":6417.893,"text":"到現在已經400億今年可能一千億了有沒有那我現在要跟你問的就是說我們台灣現在外籍看護差不多23萬那這個是每個月繳多少錢"},{"start":6432.049,"end":6450.999,"text":"兩千那如果是製造業因為我接到很多僱主的抱怨製造業五千、六千及一萬一個外籍老公來台灣僱主還要提高一萬塊怕死人,一年十二萬的部長,太貴了你這麼錢這麼多,大家都這樣"},{"start":6457.742,"end":6458.102,"text":"你寫的製造業根本找不到人嗎?"},{"start":6479.751,"end":6500.36,"text":"不會呢委員,其實製造業這部分因為我們一直都有在開放然後對他其實應該相對還算現在外籍勞工在臺灣已經快要變成我們人口的一部分了我們變成是我們同胞的一部分"},{"start":6500.874,"end":6510.957,"text":"所以可是委員就是我們救安基金對也因為這樣所以所以能夠來平衡國人就業我們今年預算293億就進帳291啦那你的支出是花在什麼地方就國人就業喔就是失業的來頂失業救基金不是不是就業訓練要給他"},{"start":6528.321,"end":6530.664,"text":"那是就業保險"},{"start":6546.738,"end":6552.361,"text":"就業保險是另外一筆錢就業保險是另外一筆錢每個月在花給這些失業的勞工一個六個月九個月一年的年齡的關係那這個是勞保局在發的錢嗎通過勞保局去給付"},{"start":6572.893,"end":6582.788,"text":"那你這個接案定基金是29個委員在掌控那以前有發生過很多弊端現在還會有嗎"},{"start":6586.461,"end":6604.455,"text":"應該應該委員你覺得最近還有這幾年有在聽到嗎我們這位署長上來之後應該他還我覺得應該還蠻透明很公正的是那你們這個委員是多久拼一次兩年一任嗎還是兩年一任無幾職出馬費初期車馬費對"},{"start":6608.379,"end":6635.585,"text":"因為去年還有人在報裡面的弊端齁好那你這樣一年有291的進帳那你的支出差不多多少我們今年預算支出也是編290億欸收支要270我們今年的支出也是編270那是整個支出教育訓練是一部分啦不過是占2%以上"},{"start":6638.508,"end":6657.405,"text":"那錢那麼多所以呢各個縣市長都要跟你磕頭跟你掉頭寸有沒有這回事我們確實在補助地方政府方面也蠻多的對可是這不是磕頭啦那個大家都是夥伴關係對我們跟縣市的合作都非常好那有沒有拿去投資其他的"},{"start":6658.306,"end":6658.846,"text":"今年預算也要拜託委員省"},{"start":6682.403,"end":6697.914,"text":"那來第二個問題就是．天天很多外籍．這次在船上有外籍的漁工那常常被你們罰．被你們開罰單就是說這要轉圜開到買頭 頂頭 你要整理漁獲那你們想說那個叫鯊魚我告訴你齁 我們這個海邊的魚 抓魚的齁"},{"start":6708.381,"end":6730.413,"text":"做溫暖的,那時候我會把他抬到沙沙雨,那時候他會死在漁獲,漁獲就是把他整理,這樣而已,還要買到整理,當然也要買到整理,不然那時候要怎麼處理,那你就隨便把他開端,開到大家這樣群起連署,要來遊覽車,要走來走去,要勞動部這樣抗議,那你現在處理得怎麼樣?"},{"start":6734.359,"end":6759.126,"text":"就是委員我知道您在關心的這樣的形態他是這樣啦他在他下船以後去幫忙鯊魚那沒有問題可是他如果把魚販去市場賣整理魚貨那不叫鯊魚火魚才叫鯊魚死的魚啊都扁開都被人抓回來都死的都冰凍的到這個是鯊魚整理魚貨講好事對整理魚貨沒問題可是他如果去市場賣魚"},{"start":6761.289,"end":6765.164,"text":"海上叫做走私那兩岸叫做海上小貿易"},{"start":6766.719,"end":6794.696,"text":"觀念不太一樣餒兩岸四地沒有什麼走私是海上小貿易所以這個想法講法不一樣所以你現在整理一戶家當然你們要跟漁業署來溝通那現在勞動部這邊是解釋啊然後現在你們是要怎麼處理你不能再一直開端那不然人家動會掉啦對不對你不知道這件事齁"},{"start":6795.676,"end":6814.253,"text":"我知道其實我在東港那邊有很多這樣的需求對他們也希望你的意思就是希望移工也能夠幫忙到市場上處理他處理他整理出來叫他到市場可是這部分到到岸邊喔對岸邊"},{"start":6817.016,"end":6842.554,"text":"我們來研究看看好嗎因為就是如果是他是他工作的延伸那就可以啦對工作的延伸是是是對我們來研究看看是是是所以這個阿你要跟漁業署好好的來溝通阿對對對我們要跟漁業署請問上不然的話這些傳統齁你發覺齁金人港澳的船坐在我們車上阿要給它餵阿所以金人跟漁業署好好啊好好溝通一下好不好阿你現在你的補分"},{"start":6844.462,"end":6854.647,"text":"委員報告因為這個議題其實漁民有反應我們跟漁業署其實都有在持續溝通那現在就是把那個範圍界定工作延伸基本上那個部分只要沒有涉及到一些未來一些漁獲的販賣或什麼大概這個部分我們跟漁業署會來溝通"},{"start":6874.532,"end":6887.581,"text":"就算單純的就是魚抓上來釣上來在碼頭岸邊倒煎煎你這魚貨 這樣也要動作 如果說要去到菜市場倒賣這樣不行 這樣當然也不行 如果說在那裡就放寬一下 也這樣抓緊緊抓 這是沒意義的事嘛 好不好 好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝下一位我們請圖圈級委員 在圖圈級委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘"},{"start":6912.425,"end":6913.872,"text":"謝謝主席請問何部長來何部長"},{"start":6918.959,"end":6918.979,"text":"議員好"},{"start":6949.239,"end":6963.964,"text":"那這部分也是我們執政黨連9年來調漲基本工資那當然這一部分資方的團體當然其實也是挨叫啦那我們據我們看這個數據勞動部統計2017年調漲最低工資我們受惠的國人大概有166萬那2025年調漲受惠的國人大概有220萬"},{"start":6976.769,"end":6992.128,"text":"當然條長基本工資對於我們邊際勞工的提升很顯著當然也是我們執政黨跟勞動部的努力當然這一部分針對邊際勞工的部分我們也要感謝我們執政黨跟勞動部的努力"},{"start":6993.57,"end":7017.265,"text":"這一部分當然除了我們調漲最低的基本工資可以幫助我們邊際勞工之外那當然也希望藉由調漲最低基本工資來刺激資方也希望能夠讓我們這些的受僱勞工整體薪資能夠來調漲對不對這也是我們一個重要的目標嘛也希望藉由這個來調漲我們整體的薪資當然"},{"start":7020.748,"end":7046.981,"text":"那可是針對這一部分我們看104人力銀行的調查還有我們自由時報也有針對這一部分的報導那調漲最低工資其實據他們來了解好像多數的勞工其實是無感的甚至他覺得調漲最低基本工資反而帶動我們物價的上漲針對這一部分部長有沒有來了解一下"},{"start":7047.941,"end":7075.975,"text":"委員 物價的上漲因素是很多啦齁 那麼我理解大家對所謂的這個最低工資調漲這個對經常性薪資有沒有帶動其實委員我給您報告你想想看我們現在經常性薪資的中位數已經來到46000其實是上漲的我們那個曲線喔我們就是當時在最低工資審議委員會的時候我們勞資學生委員我們一直看那個曲線都是其實是同步"},{"start":7076.495,"end":7092.883,"text":"所以你說調漲最低工資讓我們受雇員工的經常性薪資也是跟著調漲是不是當然一定會有帶他是有推波推推升因為他是底嘛他是底部他往上走的時候他就會一起往上調對"},{"start":7094.043,"end":7122.426,"text":"其實針對這一部分我們了解其實調漲最低的工資那很多僱主說讓他的成本提升當然他的獲利下降所以其實針對除了最低基本工資的員工之外很多的員工除了像這些他不是領最低基本工資的這些受僱勞工的薪資他說其實他們是被調降甚至被動漲的"},{"start":7124.508,"end":7145.348,"text":"所以針對這部分我們來討論一下那其實你看我們提高這個最低薪資以後其實帶動這個物價的上漲所以對於我們實質的薪資對於企業成本的提高然後這些實質薪資其實是不增反減的"},{"start":7146.997,"end":7153.501,"text":"應該委員您去看這個我們那個統計調查您秀出來的這個110年是4萬2然後11年到4萬3去年我們今年已經達到4萬6了"},{"start":7165.789,"end":7190.634,"text":"對你看喔從107年開始到111年齁其實你看整體的條幅我們最低基本工資107年你調4點多可是我們的經常性的平均薪資只有提升2點多然後108年你調升5%結果我們的基本經常性平均薪資只有提高到1點多除了110年調0.84然後我們"},{"start":7195.875,"end":7217.472,"text":"經常性平均薪資提高到1.807以外其實你看這5年以來我們最低工資條幅這麼大可是你看整體的經常性平均薪資其實帶動很小而且這些的調整之後我們說為什麼說他的實質薪資是不增反減因為他的物價的上漲"},{"start":7218.573,"end":7234.906,"text":"反而大於他薪資的調升所以看起來他的薪資是調漲但是這物價的通膨反而高於他薪資的調升也就是說其實他好像薪資調高事實上他的錢變小了因為我們物價的上漲"},{"start":7236.035,"end":7236.055,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7251.537,"end":7274.943,"text":"通膨是這樣通膨當然其實你經濟在成長經濟在好員工薪資在上漲的時候坦白說在經濟學的理論上通膨是一定多多少少都會存在可是當然我們一定我政府要去打擊通膨這也是一定要做的然後跟委員報告我當然也知道您的顧慮所以我們今年在最低工資通過以"},{"start":7276.203,"end":7301.42,"text":"我們現在也我剛剛在業務報告的時候我有跟你跟大家報告就是中小微企業的補助升級方案啊好那麼我們希望能夠透過我們在救安基金也在這部分有出一部分的預算我們跟經濟部跟交通部針對小微企業我們希望能夠補助員工提升他的數位能力對因為部長這部分其實我之前也跟你討論過"},{"start":7302.501,"end":7318.872,"text":"對因為很多條條這個最低基本工資像很多他不是領最低基本工資他是領高於最低基本工資其實這麼多年來喔他們真的都沒有調到薪水所以喔是不是這個最低基本工資跟受雇員工的薪資其實是脫鉤的"},{"start":7319.893,"end":7345.725,"text":"你最低基本工資一直調其實很多民眾說其他是並沒有被調到的反而帶動這物價的上漲讓他的薪水反而你最低基本工資一直調讓很多員工沒有調到錢甚至調的幅度不夠高造成反而他感覺是不增反減反而是被減薪的感覺好那針對這部分我覺得還是可以看一下這些數據你看這個條幅確實是沒有跟上來"},{"start":7346.645,"end":7367.095,"text":"對我們要努力啦因為我們也這樣子所以去年委員今年委員大院也通過了這個中小企業條例然後希望能夠補助這一個新企業能夠調升這個非最低工資的這樣的員工部分的那你有沒有了解過這個最低最低工資的調漲"},{"start":7368.356,"end":7389.203,"text":"他其實看這個數據他確實是沒有帶動整體薪資的漲幅就是這個漲幅是沒有跟上來的你最低金資的漲幅是比較大整體的漲幅是比較低那你們了解過企業為什麼不願意調整這個薪資拒絕跟這個受僱員工分享這個盈利這個原因是在哪裡有沒有去了解過"},{"start":7391.29,"end":7407.198,"text":"對當然這個企業他們在利潤分享的時候他們有他們要他們的priority是什麼這個可能對我們會有他們的計算方式是希望企業跟著調生那我想請問一下我們政府有沒有帶頭把這個薪資做調生啊"},{"start":7408.604,"end":7429.083,"text":"委員那個行政院聽不通過的軍工叫調薪今年連續調再調3%就是這個用意對所以公務員也調3%嘛那我們勞動部應該也要跟上對不對您是指勞動部是不是針對這個薪資部門也要跟著調薪您是指非最低工資的人工的那像我們勞動部有些業務是委外的對不對"},{"start":7430.544,"end":7445.112,"text":"委員那個部分如果是我機構內的我部內的比如說像我的重建中心我明年也會讓他調4%對那在我們在機構內部的我們當然是會所以也會跟著調嗎因為我們要帶勞動部要帶頭嗎當然可是你看一下據我們瞭解喔勞動部勞發署喔他針對自己委外的就業服務的派遣人員你看喔"},{"start":7456.84,"end":7468.35,"text":"他這個職缺是派到我們勞動部勞發署各個分署去從事就業情報業務的輔導那當然我們基本工資3年調漲我們算過3年調漲超過12%結果我們看這個職務連續3年都動漲我們政府自己也沒有帶頭阿"},{"start":7478.619,"end":7498.676,"text":"你這個基本工資三年調漲結果你自己委外的這個職缺連續三年都動漲難怪我們看所有從事這個職缺的一兩個月就換人然後整天在徵才那你調漲基本工資要帶動企業要企業帶動結果自己政府也不做委外的也不做"},{"start":7499.637,"end":7524.829,"text":"委員我們這個明年就會也跟著漲的我們會這個也會漲3%所以這部分我希望部長看一下你看3年我們基本工資調漲12%結果一直呼籲叫企業也跟著帶頭結果我們自己勞動部勞發署所有的委外的都沒有做好我們會來檢討那明年就會又會跟著跟進一起調好這部分還請部長來多瞭解多關心一下好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7526.92,"end":7527.905,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8150.206,"end":8150.226,"text":"會展開"},{"start":8193.305,"end":8208.772,"text":"好先請王振旭委員發言好欸謝謝主席我們有請何部長何部長"},{"start":8212.182,"end":8212.402,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8243.583,"end":8264.564,"text":"另外今天想要跟部長請教是除了這些基本生活保障的同時有沒有機會讓我們的勞動朋友有幸福的感覺這是今天要跟部長來互相討論的地方其實我們也可以知道根據我們現在的勞基法的一些規定"},{"start":8266.306,"end":8285.01,"text":"不管是在針對雙週、八週或者是四週變形的工時、延長工作時間等等在事業單位有工會的時候那就必須要有一個好的勞資會議的同意才能夠去根據這個需要來做一些調整"},{"start":8285.53,"end":8301.212,"text":"那如果沒有的話呢就需要去多了解看看那這6項的彈性措施目前依照第75條的這個規定呢如果沒有辦法遵守的時候呢就有罰則"},{"start":8302.313,"end":8326.578,"text":"那這是由各地主管機關可以來做對雇主進行這個行政罰則那不知道到目前為止有沒有相關的資料或是統計知道說因為有違反這六項規定而受到影響的一些案件那這部分不知道部長有沒有相關的資料可以提供給我們當參考是我可以先請對"},{"start":8331.143,"end":8347.985,"text":"我們勞資會議的這個舉辦當然也是必須考慮到有時候企業形態啦那因為我們中小企業實在太多了那麼所以98%是中小企業那他對於勞資會議的機制沒有很瞭解"},{"start":8349.126,"end":8374.533,"text":"對所以我們還要再宣導然後再多加強還有另一方面是那種微型企業五人以下的甚至連勞保城堡都不成立這樣子那他們那種形態是變成什麼呢他的雇主通常也是員工就是雇主跟員工之間就就是簡直是一家人家庭類的這樣子的一種方式是這個這種形態也很多所以"},{"start":8375.333,"end":8403.35,"text":"你也不能說他們這種就他們其實也是另外一種另類的勞資會議啦這種還蠻多的所以我們會我們必須要針對這些不同樣態的企業型態喔要來這個來來盤點狀況然後來實務面有他的困難的地方是因為依照需要的話這個勞資會議看會又還要做記錄對如果沒有完整的記錄的話那可能就要面臨"},{"start":8405.091,"end":8420.7,"text":"沒有依照規定來處理這個勞資會議以後所要去達到的一個目標這的確是一個很不容易的事情可是不容易的事情如果有好的方法我們也期待能夠能夠達到我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":8421.42,"end":8439.554,"text":"我們這些勞動朋友有幸福的感覺那代表說勞方資方之間是透過共同的一些方法來討論出對於勞工朋友有更好保障的一些工作的內容因為我們知道事實上對勞方就是對勞動朋友來講如果有感受到這個好處的話相對來講他在幸福的感覺就一定會指數會上升"},{"start":8449.281,"end":8454.488,"text":"因為我們發現那麼多家的這個一百六十幾萬家的這些中小企業事實上開過會議的只有16萬對因為其實他們多數真的本身有點"},{"start":8466.642,"end":8474.426,"text":"都是We are family的形態這樣子他本身他有很多彈性彈性的那一種勞資的因應的方式所以在部長這邊同仁們可以多宣導的同時"},{"start":8481.869,"end":8506.815,"text":"也能夠有機會去落實尤其是如果有比較具體的公會或者是針對某一些特別的狀況之下也讓我們的勞動朋友知道有這樣的權益可以試著去爭取因為我們也從這個貴單位就是貴部所呈現的這個勞資會議的流程圖裡面看到的確這些都已經具備了"},{"start":8507.415,"end":8507.695,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8524.961,"end":8546.914,"text":"就是不要讓一般的我們的勞動朋友認為說如果是只有30人以上才能做這些事情那30人以下好像就比較有他的困難度存在這個部分就是要呈現我剛剛一直在提到的讓我們的勞動朋友有感受到"},{"start":8548.835,"end":8569.062,"text":"就很關心他能夠感受到我們這些在工作過程當中那種被關心被照顧的感覺我想如果有這樣的感覺出來或者是有這樣的事實存在的時候這種勞動的這些呈現就不會有那麼明顯的會因為他覺得這個工作環境不適合他而離開這個職場"},{"start":8571.042,"end":8587.95,"text":"這部分就麻煩部長還有同仁們一起來設法來改善好不好好謝謝委員會這樣講其實是因為沿街的就是所謂的離線權離線權這是一個未來一定要面對的問題"},{"start":8589.831,"end":8615.76,"text":"因為3CC產品的這些越來越發達還有我們不管是在這個資訊或者是相關的這些設備還有使用越來越多那澳洲他們已經讓他們的這個離線權可以透過立法的方式來執行那歐盟其實是最早開始法國更是率先通過了離線權的法案"},{"start":8617.76,"end":8637.205,"text":"包括德國美國也陸續的在執行當中離線權的意思就是說當所有的同仁離開他正常的工作時間以後如果接到了相關透過這些資訊處理的模式希望能夠增加工作的"},{"start":8637.725,"end":8660.806,"text":"不管是項目也好或時間也好那如何能夠有好的方法來避免或者是來讓這樣的處理可以更為完整那不知道部長針對這個離線權的看法是怎麼樣未來勞動部有沒有什麼樣的態度來面對這個一定會碰到的這個問題因為這個會讓我們剛所提到那個幸福的感覺是不一樣的"},{"start":8663.603,"end":8675.692,"text":"我們其實關於離線權當然我們是支持勞工要在這裡面取得他應有的權益啦所以我們其實有指引的就是你如果下班以後你用來"},{"start":8677.553,"end":8693.266,"text":"對通知你的員工要加班具體要求加班的話那員工是可以拿這個東西去跟勞動局主張說你應該給付我加班費的因為我們知道其實台北市啊台北市他們已經針對勞工的離線權"},{"start":8695.428,"end":8721.369,"text":"開始做一些應變處理措施然後甚至他會要求僱主下班傳訊算加班而且這個會員還是1分鐘做計算高雄市好像也對於這樣離線權也有一些想法跟動作我相信主管機關部長這邊如果能夠及早也把這樣的方法或者是未來要面對的部分能夠及早讓"},{"start":8723.451,"end":8749.63,"text":"民眾更知道他未來面對這個離線權可以怎麼處理的話應該有很好的一個指導作用是謝謝委員不過就是說這個需要同時對勞資雙方都要宣導對免得對就要不然會造成很多對所以重點就是說不管是勞方或資方應該共同來面對這樣的問題而不是單純是要求勞方或資方要去獨自面對問題"},{"start":8751.222,"end":8764.311,"text":"對是當然這其實也可以視為是一種彈性工作的形態的變化那當然我們這個我們來研究是對這個跟傳統的工時的計算那之間如何的來"},{"start":8766.772,"end":8794.705,"text":"所以因為勞動部基本上就是要照顧廣泛的勞工的權益嘛所以當然我們也不希望說因為在這個照顧這個勞工勞動朋友的權益的同時會影響到各位的生產力或者是相關的影響這是同時要兼顧只是因為隨著這個時代的進步當然很多的事情我們要重新的面對對對對是那下一個部分就是要建構這個友善的生養環境"},{"start":8795.945,"end":8815.654,"text":"那其實我們也很了解針對團性育嬰假我們在今年的5月9號開始試辦那不知道到目前為止將近5個多月的試辦期間有89個公司單位的參與有沒有初步的成果出來可以提供給大家做參考"},{"start":8817.235,"end":8824.586,"text":"對跟委員報告我們10月11號有召開這個的期中座談會那麼我們到9月30號有統計有短期育嬰留庭這一種有166件那我們座談會召開的結果"},{"start":8832.398,"end":8850.674,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8850.794,"end":8866.484,"text":"那他也怕說相關的專業人員會不會有這工作停掉了要回去恢復的問題等等這些啦這是實際執行上的問題那麼我們年底就會結束了所以我們會出一個檢討報告然後下一步怎麼走我們那再來跟委員報告"},{"start":8867.304,"end":8885.985,"text":"所以等有結果以後才會知道什麼時候會正式上路對對對不過我們的育嬰留艇成效非常好就是那個快撞的六個月的那個先對那個執行成效是非常好尤其是男性申請量非常的大"},{"start":8886.465,"end":8887.225,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":8929.906,"end":8931.893,"text":"主席是不是請我們這個何部長何部長"},{"start":8937.165,"end":8938.426,"text":"你知道吧?"},{"start":8938.426,"end":8938.446,"text":"是。"},{"start":8964.224,"end":8993.762,"text":"那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自履行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向"},{"start":8994.202,"end":8994.622,"text":"第幾次了?"},{"start":9023.848,"end":9046.956,"text":"那你們現在方向是會怎麼樣進行我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化是其中一種而已"},{"start":9047.696,"end":9073.4,"text":"這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖式典傳第七個要真人客服"},{"start":9073.86,"end":9098.116,"text":"你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都要一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為現在你在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個"},{"start":9100.097,"end":9108.402,"text":"人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟、申訴的程序正義、樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面"},{"start":9124.929,"end":9127.451,"text":"請問你這個Uber Eats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼"},{"start":9141.622,"end":9148.645,"text":"那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要說很久了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBER EAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FOR PANDA你告訴我"},{"start":9170.976,"end":9189.696,"text":"你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關"},{"start":9192.939,"end":9197.565,"text":"委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是雇傭關係你是這種外送人雇傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案"},{"start":9210.874,"end":9214.517,"text":"我跟委員報告所以你認為你支持雇用關係案是向公平會上案的我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平事的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨賺了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去反對讓他們去支持"},{"start":9230.952,"end":9257.554,"text":"我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益"},{"start":9259.534,"end":9270.037,"text":"委員我們都會說你的權益我你怎麼會不知道那我問你我問你他們為什麼這樣我問你啦Foodpanda的母公司是誰你也不知道Foodpanda的母公司是德國公司他們要買幾億元啊合併要幾億元賣掉你不知道好沒關係10億美元"},{"start":9289.145,"end":9294.169,"text":"為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定"},{"start":9309.039,"end":9337.637,"text":"但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動"},{"start":9338.678,"end":9344.3,"text":"都是在這個平台經濟裡面人家在輸送所以你知道你在未來這種平台經濟服務外送裡面在多少從業人員影響多少人啊你怎麼可以這麼的掉以輕心然後隨便輕忽的態度來面對呢你在立委立法院這裡你就這樣子面對委員的質詢你要說你要很認真我是有點問號啦那我現在講說"},{"start":9368.05,"end":9388.715,"text":"這些外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象"},{"start":9389.747,"end":9406.363,"text":"所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了"},{"start":9407.051,"end":9426.698,"text":"所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們退回來啦"},{"start":9428.188,"end":9453.782,"text":"退一步說因為外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要這僱傭還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務"},{"start":9456.503,"end":9465.086,"text":"委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一項運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意停權的樣態明確化等等"},{"start":9482.532,"end":9491.077,"text":"有,那個第三人責任險現在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦"},{"start":9498.922,"end":9514.683,"text":"我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員"},{"start":9516.445,"end":9540.244,"text":"就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為"},{"start":9541.525,"end":9561.931,"text":"但看起來像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢"},{"start":9562.831,"end":9565.415,"text":"為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個職災的風險自備生產工具自付修車保衛箱各種設備成本"},{"start":9579.514,"end":9601.969,"text":"但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性"},{"start":9602.91,"end":9616.741,"text":"那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭跟承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎"},{"start":9630.011,"end":9646.178,"text":"這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦"},{"start":9647.458,"end":9667.849,"text":"可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關"},{"start":9668.769,"end":9669.97,"text":"委員 計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的"},{"start":9697.811,"end":9707.895,"text":"那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營業有這種規則對就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎當然他們的勞動司機受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎"},{"start":9727.097,"end":9730.98,"text":"我告訴你你是協調而不是他們定而已他可以定到超出牢記法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出牢記法的範圍嗎?"},{"start":9748.05,"end":9768.857,"text":"我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟你解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看似彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員"},{"start":9773.183,"end":9781.811,"text":"因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已"},{"start":9793.581,"end":9812.234,"text":"國家部一種經驗,你現在就只好一次次亂練然後虛與偽對立委這樣子問東答西的西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份因為Global的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統"},{"start":9815.296,"end":9832.009,"text":"如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼"},{"start":9835.111,"end":9851.325,"text":"就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":9858.852,"end":9883.857,"text":"台灣有平台經濟嗎?西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式"},{"start":9884.537,"end":9908.378,"text":"而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督和控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權"},{"start":9909.699,"end":9915.78,"text":"他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說時間到了"},{"start":9941.854,"end":9966.812,"text":"好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只要任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於實務的外送"},{"start":9972.417,"end":9987.31,"text":"還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在我們問你的是你現在閃閃又奪奪"},{"start":9996.517,"end":10022.283,"text":"連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家"},{"start":10024.423,"end":10048.59,"text":"他介入確立公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以Uber Eats還有這個Full Panda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎"},{"start":10050.697,"end":10054.178,"text":"歐盟指令,歐盟平台工作指令談什麼?你也不知道?阿不然市長知道不?市長知道不?"},{"start":10063.191,"end":10070.995,"text":"你們業務主管單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了"},{"start":10088.863,"end":10101.552,"text":"他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位"},{"start":10115.404,"end":10124.108,"text":"我也不知道所以你們在這就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以在這種狀況裡面反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬"},{"start":10146.857,"end":10174.606,"text":"我們當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定"},{"start":10176.027,"end":10191.722,"text":"則由平台業者負責舉證責任除了推定僱傭關係以外也規範了演算法管理勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據"},{"start":10197.387,"end":10210.418,"text":"也不可以去獲取人家的生物特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性"},{"start":10219.466,"end":10232.564,"text":"那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得說專法還"},{"start":10237.654,"end":10243.738,"text":"需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定"},{"start":10251.055,"end":10275.495,"text":"委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我覺得要問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態"},{"start":10276.716,"end":10277.017,"text":"委員我要坦白講我作為"},{"start":10296.721,"end":10297.302,"text":"我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿"},{"start":10312.901,"end":10313.121,"text":"台灣的社會勞動平台經濟不是獨創的"},{"start":10327.295,"end":10330.716,"text":"而且現在包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的"},{"start":10350.985,"end":10362.811,"text":"一定要法治化保障然後絕對不應該是外送人內部沒有共識跟你們討論沒有共識跟交通部沒有共識要行政院來協調不是這樣子一句話就可以帶過了你今天在這裡就是這樣子閃躲顧左右而言他問東答西謝謝林淑芬委員林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在現在請王宏威委員"},{"start":10385.472,"end":10388.393,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們何部長好部長好延續剛才您說分委員的話題我大概是第一次聽到就是有關於這個uber eat跟ful panda的這個合併案裡面我們勞動部很明確的表達反對是不是那這樣的反對我們是不是已經有發函讓公平會知道了呢"},{"start":10414.162,"end":10440.654,"text":"我們要求公平會在討論合併案前一定要先智慧我們勞動部這邊沒有我的意思是說你們反對合併案因為其實很多的公會組織事上都在反對這個案子那當然你們作為勞動部但是你們這麼明確的態度有沒有發函給公平會讓他們知道"},{"start":10441.474,"end":10453.058,"text":"我們有跟公平會告知有用公文方式有去告知有正式喊因為他們現在還沒有做成決議因為還在補件的一個過程裡面因為我覺得勞動部的態度其實是至為關鍵的另外請教一下"},{"start":10460.92,"end":10487.191,"text":"剛才討論到因為部長也講說會訂定專訪那麼確實我們外送員其實在很多的在跟這個平台打官司的時候其實都是弱勢好那最近有一個案子事實上呢是台南市政府他用一個自治條例要求這個外送平台要幫這個外送員做第三人責任保險"},{"start":10488.231,"end":10517.412,"text":"可是呢我本來一直有那但是fulpanda沒有結果fulpanda跑去跟臺南市政府打行政訴訟結果最後的結果是什麼呢是臺南市政府輸掉了反而是臺南市政府輸掉因為他的理由就是說保險不是地方自治事項所以撤銷了臺南市政府的處分所以我剛才在講就說今天外送員啊面對的是一個"},{"start":10518.012,"end":10548.012,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10549.093,"end":10550.434,"text":"委員我們現在其實就有提供那個第三人責任險"},{"start":10571.344,"end":10595.639,"text":"這樣的規範喔給那個兩家業者他們也都同意我剛才有聽到你回答林淑芬委員講的吾輝有所以福佩娜因為他也打官司嘛我剛剛講這個官司案例第三人責任險嗎還是指這一個第三人責任險他有反對嗎他跟台南市政府打官司因為台南市政府是用自治條例那是強制險對強制險那麼但是問題喔問題喔"},{"start":10601.082,"end":10619.271,"text":"這個外送平台其實也不只這兩家只這兩家是已經造成一個壟斷的局面就是其實他要這個整個的合併的面向很多啦不只外送員事實上我們基於消費者保護來說其實過去他們就是不尊重消費者他想他想要提高"},{"start":10619.791,"end":10619.811,"text":"我剛講"},{"start":10638.943,"end":10664.649,"text":"是不是可以我們中央專法裡面去補足這個地方自治條例的不足由中央來規範修法以後他們就不要去跟我們地方打官司地方還會還會輸掉在中央的部分可不可以第三人責任險這強制險的部分可不可以委員跟您報告那個第三人責任險我們治安署現在已經都勸說到兩家業者都同意替外送人法了我就說還有其他業者"},{"start":10666.269,"end":10692.78,"text":"對,其他的業者很少啦,其實佔率很少,我們都會再努力,我們來盡量來讓他們全部都...但是能不能在法裡面做規範?你直接在法裡面做規範,不然人家那個地方自治條例就說你不是地方的權責啊委員,專法的問題會出在齁,我坦白說,如果是勞動部當主管的機關,我也管不到平台,問題出在這裡所以你那個專法會不會是個有效的專法,是個大問題啦,我會就面臨跟台南市政府自治條例同樣的命運"},{"start":10696.139,"end":10719.406,"text":"所以這就是我們行政院我們現在要來跨部會討論哪一個部會管他才有辦法你們只要聽出有人是主管機關就好啦你們現在就變三不管地帶阿你剛講好多都是這是交通部的事情不是你勞動部的事情難怪剛剛林淑芬委員會那麼生氣我還是覺得因為現在已經進入他們現在要合併的一個狀況"},{"start":10720.606,"end":10724.028,"text":"好那你剛剛講說這兩家沒錯他們兩家壟斷但是還有其他業者所以我們希望能夠在中央的法院上面去做補強而不要出現我剛剛在講像台南市政府的這樣的一個狀況所以你們要跨部會"},{"start":10736.033,"end":10757.013,"text":"您們最後要由哪一個部會去擔任主管機關我沒有什麼太大意見這個到時候以後專訪還要再去討論但是我希望不要再出現地方想要保護最後呢全部都推到中央地方也束手無策好不好我們積極來研議我覺得還是要在法院上修法好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10760.58,"end":10761.78,"text":"有請部長何部長"},{"start":10784.332,"end":10803.772,"text":"委員好部長好部長沒有雇主理會勞基法第54條在7月份我們立法院三讀勞動基準法第54條修正案在現行65歲強制退休年齡規定不變的情況下明定勞雇雙方得協商延後退休我想勞動部在這個新聞稿也寫到這個"},{"start":10805.333,"end":10815.091,"text":"代表社會各界對於勞動高齡者勞動力投入勞動市場是支持的我想哪一個行業別響應最為熱烈?部長您有資訊嗎?"},{"start":10817.612,"end":10843.366,"text":"應該我們其實現在有很多企業響應這個東西真的嗎那部長我想提供幾個資訊給你知道一下瞭解以受年齡限制最小的工作行業別而言像是保險業金融業行政客服業補教事業類都沒有人要響應7月份的三讀通過勞動基準法第54條修正內容我想部長就勞工而言修法利益良善但是雇主不理會後續我們該怎麼辦勞動部有沒有準備"},{"start":10847.133,"end":10864.489,"text":"當然我們要來加大力度宣導就是不能以年齡為歧視來任意支錢當然宣導是必要但是未來如果有沒有朝向完全沒辦法宣導完全沒有效果要不要強制半強制或者是給予更多的誘因這個部分呢你覺得呢"},{"start":10865.129,"end":10866.33,"text":"是,我們會來努力好嗎?"},{"start":10895.129,"end":10912.888,"text":"我也不支持阿好謝謝你那部長我想之前您在未完委員會曾經對我表示過以個人的立場你是支持立外送員專法的但是部長您知道光是現在官方的委外研究中建議外送員要立法的保障至少等了多久"},{"start":10915.349,"end":10940.407,"text":"委員這確實是一個需要審慎討論的問題所以這個在跨部會我們還在討論租款機關到底該怎麼辦的問題這是一個很核心的問題可是這也是核心問題我知道核心問題有很多都是核心問題但是我們希望的是能夠加快速度我先回答剛剛的那個答案從官方研究委外研究中"},{"start":10941.047,"end":10960.131,"text":"建議外送員要立法的保障到現在是2018的11月這份報告就已經出來了我們委外的研究我國推動新基金模式新科技發展對勞動市場的影響與因應的報告當中結論就指針對不同勞動光譜的一個工作制定更細緻的勞動法規應是較為可行的一個做法"},{"start":10963.692,"end":10984.555,"text":"制定兼顧雙方權益的勞動法規範就是為上冊2018年11月的這個研究到現在已經2024年10月了官方的委外研究報告建議外送員專法的保障足足等了5年11個月這個核心的問題研究了5年11個月我想"},{"start":10984.915,"end":11002.297,"text":"不管是外送員發生這個車禍的問題或者是剛剛有委員在討論不管是強制法第三責任險相關的一個問題我們都希望我們能夠立專法保障這些外送員所以我們最近也看到交通部目前已經預告要修正汽車"},{"start":11004.259,"end":11020.327,"text":"獲運業管理規則等相關規定將明定以機車載運乘運外送平台運送的業務運價我想這個是利益良善外送員最在意的就是包含啟程以及續程等待樓層業間加成的運費相關等等"},{"start":11023.368,"end":11046.93,"text":"我想這個部分都可以納入運價裡面對外送員的專法而言條文當中最難解決的一塊就是合理運價交通部試著去處理了以及報酬的透明化如今可以獲得採納也意味著專法已經邁向重要的一步所以到現在我想問一下部長你能不能在這裡承諾外送員專法在你任內會完成"},{"start":11048.151,"end":11064.339,"text":"委員我要先這個強調交通部會修這個法規是我們兩個部會共同討論的當然我不會說是他的一個功勞啦你們也有付出你們也有努力都沒有關係可不可以給我一個態度你能不能承諾在你的任內會完成"},{"start":11070.722,"end":11086.655,"text":"真的他的這一個他是不是會能不能是一個有效的立法這是要考慮的我們為什麼會去交通部那邊訂這樣子的一個運費透明化的在汽車或運輸業管理規則裡面訂就是因為坦白說現在能管uber的是誰公路法"},{"start":11087.415,"end":11089.236,"text":"現在外送員在什麼樣的情況之下會被平台停權開除沒有人知道"},{"start":11103.003,"end":11130.729,"text":"認為平台就是這樣的機制如此擴張他自己的權利這一點對外送員來說工作的權益受損沒有獲得保障相關的申訴也不夠透明部長判死刑總得要有個理由吧沒理由判死刑會死不瞑目請問部會有沒有準備相關的因應對策這個也是我們跟平台在討論對話的討論議題我們希望看到具體的作為我們希望看到具體能夠保障外送員而不是一直在等一直在等一直在等請你加油好嗎謝謝好"},{"start":11133.944,"end":11160.973,"text":"接下來請陳英委員發言謝謝主席那個部長先不用上來等你休息一下那我先請那個治安署周署長周署長"},{"start":11162.722,"end":11164.103,"text":"我們沒有預期要死亡人數我們希望降低到這個標準之以下沒有預期就沒有"},{"start":11192.79,"end":11196.574,"text":"我們沒有設標準嗎?重大職災內平均97人喔?贏到最弱的是最不好的跟委員報告"},{"start":11215.177,"end":11238.835,"text":"但是因為年平均就差不多300吧對 我們去年的死亡人數300人前年是320人跟你報的97這感覺是就是從比較優的報起不是嗎我們營造業是我們植栽的最大比率的占一半以上好啦 那我問你今年初到現在從那個年初到現在已經有多少人不幸死亡了目前我們手邊統計是210人"},{"start":11242.814,"end":11254.213,"text":"兩百一十人是好那你覺得今年會不會超過往年的一個平均值我們希望能夠比去年降低"},{"start":11255.339,"end":11279.793,"text":"到一定的程度那如果依照我們現在去年是多少去年300人那你說現在截至目前為止已經多少了210人210人了好那這個部分因為已經200多人了我沒有很樂觀但我希望他最後可以不要超過在去年"},{"start":11285.356,"end":11306.543,"text":"112年的這個職災千人率是不是歷史新低?千人率不會是依照老保的給付做處理目前我們數字確實是歷年新低那如果是歷史新低的話但是我們看這個重大職災死亡的人數他還是偏高的所以我要請教就署長你個人你相信哪個指標?"},{"start":11307.643,"end":11323.042,"text":"報告委員指南幾乎是一個指標那我們的重大指南死亡人數是法令強制規定一定要做通報跟進入檢查的那牽連率部分有包括死亡失能跟傷病所以死亡的部分在裡面比例是相對是低的"},{"start":11325.1,"end":11352.151,"text":"我其實是問的這個職災千人率跟那個重大職災死亡人數這兩個是你覺得這兩個的指標你覺得哪一個是比較精準的精準的部分是我們重大職災死亡人數這個我們接受通報檢查的部分那勞保的幾部有人是沒有投勞保或是勞保沒有幾部對嘛那所以這個職災千人率的部分嘛因為因為現在是主要是這個"},{"start":11353.932,"end":11366.792,"text":"我們的這個數字的走向是有點奇怪啊照理來講是應該是個正常來說是應該是平行但是我們現在還出現一個交叉這是很奇怪的事情嘛那"},{"start":11368.052,"end":11393.786,"text":"我想是這樣這個也讓社會各界就搞不清楚到底他該相信這個重大職災的這個死亡人數還是這個職災千人率還創歷年新低這個大家會覺得很疑惑啊你如果職災千人率已經降低很多的話那你怎麼那個重大職災死亡人數一直在飆高這兩個就反方向了嘛"},{"start":11396.787,"end":11418.932,"text":"我終於在上個月就9月收到你們112年勞動統計的年報因為過去我也有提過往年其實都是7月就出來了但是現在好像越來越慢了又等到9月這是什麼原因?報告委員我們每年的勞動檢查統計年報都是7、8月出來沒有錯"},{"start":11421.744,"end":11427.337,"text":"今年6月就上去,印製比較久一點"},{"start":11431.189,"end":11457.953,"text":"好,我希望都可以準時好不好是,我們會努力因為不是每個人都可以拿到就是有些人拿到紙本有些人上網看這樣子很不統一啦又落差這麼久的時間還有就是說因為你們歷年的資料我去比對了一下發現這個勞動檢查場次的增加好像跟實在的減少沒有什麼關係署長你針對這樣的狀況你有什麼看法是因為我們檢查的品質下降了嗎"},{"start":11458.713,"end":11458.733,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":11479.19,"end":11499.906,"text":"所以我們當然會檢討說我們的檢查效能到底能不能夠控制災害的不要再繼續往上我講數字是會說話的嘛目前這樣看起來是沒有嘛所以如果你說這個也要因應這個我們整個社會邊圈還有整個環境的一個變化那你們也應該要做調整不是嗎"},{"start":11501.109,"end":11523.571,"text":"是的,所以跟委員報告,比如說我剛剛講離岸風力發電,我們就投注一些人力做這樣子的檢查,那那個太陽能發電,現在很多推那個物理型太陽能電板,我們認為那也是高風險。你在講也只是就是單一的項目啦,那個我覺得我們事後可以你再好好的詳細跟本辦公室做報告,那因為這個勞動的年報的主要資料他"},{"start":11525.492,"end":11550.791,"text":"這個資料它主要是有分為這個勞動條件還有職業安全衛生兩個不同領域的檢查那實際上呢在你們的這個執行的程序是依照這個勞動檢查法那我要請問就是說你們的這個檢查員名稱是不是叫勞動檢查員是的好那我記得之前齁這個外送平台的這個勞動權益跟這個僱傭關係也是你們職安署認定的嘛對不對"},{"start":11551.584,"end":11556.006,"text":"我還是要提醒你我的問題沒有太複雜你就直接簡單回答就好了那在這個我們過去在討論這個勞基法修法的時候勞動檢查勞動條件的檢查也是你們執行的嗎不是嗎"},{"start":11582.243,"end":11586.917,"text":"執行端是我們職安署配合各地方政府的聘用檢察員做執行的沒有錯"},{"start":11587.769,"end":11610.928,"text":"反正就不是要叫調評司嘛那你們負責的業務早就已經超過這個職業安全衛生的業務那有越來越多的這個勞動者的權益要靠你們去保護所以你們出版的年報呢也叫做這個勞動檢查年報那檢查員也叫做勞動檢查員那平台作業工作者的勞動權益跟安全"},{"start":11613.63,"end":11632.56,"text":"安全衛生也是你們在保護只是說本期覺得很疑惑的一件事就是你們都還是叫做這個職業安全衛生署那感覺是這個名稱跟實際的狀況是名不符實你都笑了好那接下來我想部長休息夠了可以請部長上來"},{"start":11634.941,"end":11649.798,"text":"今年剛好是這個職安署成立10週年那10年前這個勞委會的勞工安全衛生研究所升格為勞動部的這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所"},{"start":11651.5,"end":11669.66,"text":"我有提出來就是說經過這10年的變遷你們的這個職安所應該要升格為勞動及職業安全衛生署明確的把這個職權跟組織的功能然後做一個完整的盤點跟討論我希望我今天提出這個部長不要反對"},{"start":11672.108,"end":11693.311,"text":"我們再研議看看好嗎委員這個就是讓你們名副其實應該不是太困難他就是一個名稱這樣子因為這牽涉到其實那個三級機關屬是三級機關那現在都滿了喔除非我去修行政院組織法"},{"start":11694.707,"end":11699.771,"text":"你們可以好好去研議,因為你們這個應該不是,這應該沒有到這麼複雜。不過這也是要修法的,就沒有那麼高崗了。"},{"start":11710.539,"end":11738.679,"text":"好謝謝委員謝謝對啊因為有些都已經就有些組別名稱都沒有只有還還有存在也是怪怪的那個我相信部長非常關注這個勞工權益的問題那這裡面不是只有職業安全衛生業務而已那現今的這個勞動條件還有職災勞工保護的業務都跟10年前其實是很不一樣的那麼例如說這個職災勞工保護法已經落日了"},{"start":11739.721,"end":11753.712,"text":"但是呢就是現在已經是被這個勞工職業災害保險及保護法所取代但是這個職保組的業務呢也已經轉移給這個勞保局了那在你們第二任署長就是那個劉傳明很會畫國畫那個畫機的那位"},{"start":11757.535,"end":11781.043,"text":"就是調平司司長去接任那個職安署署長而且他就很喜歡很喜歡講號稱這個聲稱這個牢條大軍說準備好了那尤其是現在很多的這個勞動新興議題還有職場精神不法傷害侵害還有性騷擾性別平等等還有就業歧視勞保投送勞保投保還有這個外籍勞工等等都跟你們職安署"},{"start":11781.383,"end":11797.45,"text":"的業務是有關係的所以很多的這個新興的職業病例如這個COVID-19然後高溫都跟這個勞動條件還有職業壓力都是有關係的所以未來的職業災害預防他已經是跳脫這個整個傳統的思維所以部長"},{"start":11798.63,"end":11814.789,"text":"我剛剛這樣的提議我希望你能夠慎重的去考慮然後可以落實執行那這個也要拜託就是那個部裡面還有我們整個衛環委員會的同仁大家一起來思考"},{"start":11815.249,"end":11836.487,"text":"指安署升格的必要性我相信你們也會有一個改名是改組織調整然後還有裡面這個修法之後這個已經不見得卻還存在的這個看要怎麼處理那你們是不是可以在一個月內演繹好來"},{"start":11838.328,"end":11838.568,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":11875.812,"end":11878.78,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請部長 何部長"},{"start":11881.817,"end":11888.001,"text":"部長好,我們再繼續討論數字的問題勞保基金到明年累計撥補是2670億那對於撥補的部分我們認為還是有很多的累計撥補但是這個數字撥補進來但是我們的缺口還是有洞"},{"start":11909.236,"end":11923.864,"text":"未來退休的人口因為老年人口化的問題所以你的壓力會越來越大對不對所以因此本席提出2023年底你勞保基金跟你精算的負債是達到13.465億那你潛藏的負債也達到12兆多12.872億"},{"start":11932.509,"end":11957.263,"text":"如果說這個東東都不改那當然有一個數字告訴我們也就在2028年會有破產的這個狀況在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長數字會說話這個數字告訴你因為以往我們在請問這個問題的時候都給我們一個統一的答案叫做什麼政府不倒勞保不會倒"},{"start":11960.546,"end":11981.225,"text":"您是有所作為本席不希望還是用這樣子的一個口號來告訴民眾因為政府有責任讓我們所有的這個老闆人員能夠得到安心所以本席要請教也就是在整個結構性的問題我們撥補他只有什麼是治標不治本"},{"start":11981.806,"end":12009.931,"text":"你撥補的累進了那麼多但是還是一樣有空缺在那裡那您身為我們的勞動部長在這樣子的方式我相信你也認為只有以撥補撥補叫做改革這個我相信你也不認同這種口號所以本席要請教口頭上的讓勞工來做安心是絕對不會安心所以你願不願意將撥補入法"},{"start":12011.451,"end":12028.207,"text":"然後呢你要怎麼樣提出具體的長期債務的這個撥補計畫你要有一個統整的一個方向才能夠真正解決要不然你每一次都告訴我們政府不倒勞保不會倒請做說明"},{"start":12029.451,"end":12046.614,"text":"委員第一個我們到現在累計撥補是3870億啦對對那麼我們到現在的基金餘額是一兆一千億的餘額對不對意味著我們現在還有這麼多錢啦所以不用怕第一個就是說那老公朋友先不要擔心啦"},{"start":12047.495,"end":12062.545,"text":"那第二個就是說您講的撥補入法事實上我們過去都有提出只是送到立院都沒有完成修法所以這就代表在立院的各黨派我們不知道他們能不能只是就撥補"},{"start":12064.026,"end":12088.726,"text":"那你要溝通啊對啊你要溝通啊你今天新有所屬行政部門所制定出來的就是希望能夠達陣成功啊對不對那你明知道是如此那每一屆都是如此我不希望你還是前屆前前屆一樣的部長啊以前還不稱部長欸現在位階提高是部長欸所以你更有這個權利有這個義務"},{"start":12092.83,"end":12097.435,"text":"要去解決整體性的財政問題 重點在這裏你一定支持你現在 擔任部長你的版本送進來了沒有"},{"start":12112.486,"end":12134.059,"text":"委員因為我們這個勞保撥補的入法他必須還要這個我們會來整個來審慎的來討論的然後在這裡都有錄音錄影我們希望大家負責任的態度好不好好不好你剛才說是立法院沒通過但是你上任了之後你說你一定全力支持你也知道問題點如果關"},{"start":12135.9,"end":12163.774,"text":"這個源頭沒有解決永遠都是在那邊暈讓民眾不安心所以你有沒有預計要將這個入法提到立法院在你擔任部長我們會來處理會來處理喔 多久時間呢那委員因為我們這個你跟委員有權力支持的啊撥補入法的問題我們還必須考慮到其他層面的問題啦那麼我們會來處理這樣子你有沒有KPI你預計多久可以送來半年一年還是多久有一個指標"},{"start":12165.523,"end":12165.823,"text":"我們會來處理是多久會來得及嗎還是明年明年"},{"start":12195.723,"end":12196.704,"text":"我給你時間趕快努力去做好不好"},{"start":12212.023,"end":12212.183,"text":"外送員專法"},{"start":12227.574,"end":12253.36,"text":"外送員的專訪你認為你認為現在目前為止六都六都有相關的自治條例我們現在也有一萬五千名顯性的顯性的外送員在這樣情況之下你今天的報告只有說你持續推動外送平台業者與外送工會對話平台那你支不支持外送人員權益保障法"},{"start":12256.605,"end":12273.122,"text":"委員這個專法的問題我剛剛已經講過了我們必須考慮它是不是有效的立法啦你說專法必須考慮有效表示你是不認同的喔還是你是認同說我要提一部有效的專法這是你部長的職權欸"},{"start":12282.331,"end":12291.777,"text":"外送平台最主要就是說我們在外送平台這個新興行業我們有沒有辦法有效的對他進行管理政府勞動部部長"},{"start":12295.939,"end":12301.666,"text":"我只能管到外送員我管不到外送平台這樣會變成一個無效的立法目前的外送專法委員這是你的報告書上面寫的我沒有說要推動專法因為時間的關係你也請大家看到這個問題是社會面向必須要去讓他們有所得到保障"},{"start":12317.503,"end":12317.843,"text":"謝謝楊瓊怡委員接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":12345.256,"end":12366.172,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們何部長 何部長我也好 何部長我確認一下因為本期長期關注這個外送專法的一個部分 那勞動部日前才跟交通部說勞動部交通部出手外送平台運費透明化 是 我想這也"},{"start":12367.213,"end":12389.462,"text":"呼應本席之前要求說勞動部應該把跟外送平台的這個會議記錄溝通會議記錄都上網公告那也在本席的要求之下都已經有公告最近一次是8月8號本席都有看那其中跟外送業者也席代表最關鍵的兩點一點就是運費的透明一點就是這個工有沒有被"},{"start":12390.402,"end":12413.756,"text":"平台惡意或是無故的就是解除這個工作工作機會嘛對不對那現在費率已經出來但是還有這個調整草案調整的空間但另外一個部分解除工作機會到目前為止還沒有一個法令可以來明確的保障跟規範有一些規有一些規定但沒有但可是本期剛聽你講你沒有打算要推動專法是不是"},{"start":12415.185,"end":12426.482,"text":"我已經講過了就是外送專法他必須是要一個有效的立法當然是有效立法但是我們在講就是他含瓜的部會非常多但是一定還是會有主管機關"},{"start":12428.089,"end":12439.814,"text":"如果是主管機關放在勞動部我只能管到外送員我管不到外送平台這是最大的困境所以我們必須跨部會討論那因為過去我們在衛福委員會討論過非常多我不知道是因為換了一個部長之後就有一個新的思維以往的部長也不會覺得是說這個不是關勞動部的事情啊"},{"start":12452.02,"end":12472.273,"text":"以往部長也認為是說我們可以來研議可以來研究但換了新任部長之後突然間講是說我只管我只管得到這個外送員但其他部分沒有辦法那如果說我們現在真真正正認為是說外送因為外送這個行業他其實是跟手機跟5G訊號出來之後而新興產業嘛"},{"start":12475.155,"end":12501.514,"text":"這全世界的趨勢啊那我們現在在講是說我有看到報導我本來還想給予肯定講說勞動部還要再邀請各部會跨部會的來討論到底我們要怎麼樣責任分工但現在部長一句話講是說完全我沒有要管我不是說我沒有要管您剛剛的態度跟感覺就是所以說我要確認一下那現在到底有沒有一個時程或說勞動部會不會積極的去找各部會來"},{"start":12503.527,"end":12523.338,"text":"我要跟委員報告這是一個必須廣泛討論的事情沒有錯嘛就像外送平台運費透明化這是勞動部跟交通部嘛是對不對是那本期也給予肯定啊雖然說人家會覺得是說現在出來之後我們要避免後續平台會不會轉嫁"},{"start":12525.146,"end":12525.687,"text":"是阿"},{"start":12545.147,"end":12560.414,"text":"委員那外送專法也是同樣你可能你放在我勞動部也會變成你只管到外送員把外送員綁死可是呢你也管不到平台然後你也保護不了外送員可能會有這種困境喔這個就是我覺得講我們面對這種新興行業還是要面對的問題是當我們各委員也訂閱版本了"},{"start":12567.777,"end":12592.446,"text":"那版本現在我理解應該都是在我們衛環委員會跟司法法省會聯繫是可是委員我跟您報告那如果說到最後會變成是說大家山不管那無怪乎大家會覺得是說現在這就是一個山不管地帶不是山不管是啊看起來就是所以說你沒有從一個主管機關應有責任負責的態度來去處理啊我們先從跟交通部訂定運費透明化管理規則還有包括另一手跟平台推動對話我們先用這樣來處理這樣是一個比較目前有效的"},{"start":12601.711,"end":12619.761,"text":"但是遠遠不及,部長本席剛就拍中名義我就講你們現在八次的對話我都有看因為這個是當初我要求說你們的會議記錄一定要公告上網那你們八次的會議現在其實聚焦兩個部分一,運費透明你們已經有先提出了"},{"start":12620.481,"end":12632.188,"text":"本期於肯定但第二個部分就是說外送員的工作權益這個也是我們一般就是因為一般的約聘顧或是一般我們有相關的保障但是對於外送員目前是沒有嘛"},{"start":12633.114,"end":12652.896,"text":"委員 部長 我是希望部長能夠更有積極的態度來勇於認識那第二部分啦部長我來確認一下因為前些日子我們有這個颱風架就是天災然後其實它不叫架啦它叫停班停課啦那但是呢"},{"start":12653.937,"end":12675.266,"text":"也有人講是說這個有可能會發生是各地方政府在認定之後反而會造成有這個其他的考量好那我們現在拉回來也有人開始在講是說中央是不是能夠統一認定可是中央統一認定的話其實面臨到另外一個部分就是如果真的是颱風衍生出來出勤不出勤以及雇主扣薪扣績效扣出勤獎金"},{"start":12675.866,"end":12703.644,"text":"新知的一個認定跟計算嘛勞動部之前有訂立天然災害發生事業單位勞工出勤管理跟工資幾副要點但是還是沒有確定說該不該入法你只有什麼勞工不出勤移不要扣薪勞工出勤移給加班費但你還是沒有明確的去規範以至於發生亂象如同啊上禮拜"},{"start":12704.898,"end":12723.215,"text":"上禮拜我們直接講有一些縣市我們就突然看到是說因為他的氣候跟雨量可能沒有預期來的多而造成是說百貨公司零售業還是有還是有營業那對勞工的保障嘞所以部長我們現在要問的是說到底"},{"start":12724.912,"end":12742.749,"text":"不管是天災價或說天災的相關的一些法令的規範有沒有要比較積極的協助幫忙勞工這邊來去做權益的捍衛跟保障我們當然都一直很積極的在這方面所以你認為是可以入法嗎 可以立法 沒有"},{"start":12743.795,"end":12773.064,"text":"因為委員 全世界都沒有所謂的天災假害因為這是一個不可控的 是 但是現在我們在講的我們現在在講的是如果說他停班停課但是僱主還是有要求比如說他有一些行業真的就是說他一定要上班上課的話我們是不是應該要給予保障我們是不是應該要立法給予要求僱主應該要給予應有的權益而不是用一個移移給加班費移不扣薪"},{"start":12775.027,"end":12788.065,"text":"這樣對於勞工其實是沒有保障的不是嗎?委員可不可以會後請我們的勞動部提供部長本席點出來這兩個相關的修法其實都是站在勞工的立場我想這也是勞動部應該要有的立場"},{"start":12789.847,"end":12807.316,"text":"相對積極努力認識因為這個絕對不可能因為你說你不看不碰然後就不面對我相信之後我們還會在這邊有討論不管是外送專法不管是相關的這一些條條文好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝洪孟凱委員那接下來請吳宗憲委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請何部長"},{"start":12819.546,"end":12843.278,"text":"部長文安部長好部長我覺得今天其實問題還蠻簡單的就是我主要就是想到一個休假的部分的問題因為其實我們有一個政委說世界怎麼比得上臺灣這一點我們本期都難得認同這位政委講的話因為我想一下說我們勞工放假這個東西其實遠比其他國家"},{"start":12844.298,"end":12866.164,"text":"稍微工時非常高那到底其他國家要怎麼樣跟得上我們我們來提一個東西就是昨天啊勞團他有提拿四個議題來那個請教勞動部我不知道部長知不知道這件事情有那因為這個議題很多那勞動部的回應也很簡單就是說勞動部會積極審慎的態度來面對這個訴求那部長你以前也是"},{"start":12871.721,"end":12897.663,"text":" 那個勞權運動出生的啊那你想一想當年啊你會不會覺得說在你領導下的勞動部給這些勞團積極審慎態度面對訴求那這個官室的回應或是不是你以前在街頭上面你最不屑的這種大人的嘴臉就是這樣就你們今天你卻讓你的勞動部用這個理由去回應他們那這個沒關係你不用回應我只是要告訴你"},{"start":12898.904,"end":12918.978,"text":"這個一定是你當年很有理想時代你最討厭的一種長官的回應態度但是貴部卻今天用這個態度來回應這個勞權團體我只是提醒一下部長有這個問題發生好那我們再回過頭來今天的這四個訴求裡面我只拿一個訴求來跟部長討論因為我只有5分鐘"},{"start":12920.926,"end":12929.392,"text":"其實勞動部也知道說我們現在因為週休二日所以我們國家現在一年有116天的休假原則上是這個樣子"},{"start":12932.086,"end":12949.181,"text":"國人可以休息這麼多天但是勞工的每年的那個總工時有沒有降低這是一個問題就我看了一下去年我們平均的勞工總工時是2019.6個小時那我們很喜歡跟韓國比嘛韓國是1970個小時啦他只有2002年比較高但人家是1970個小時"},{"start":12958.409,"end":12987.478,"text":"這等於是我們是比人家高啊那再來我看了一下那個其他鄰近幾個國家的國定假日我們不跟OECD國家比我們就是看了一下鄰近幾個國家像柬埔寨他國定假日是28天那印度是21天我們台灣是11天中國大陸17天但我知道每一個國家有不同的文化本來就會有不一樣的做法不一樣的制度會導致這個國定假日的放假日數不一樣這我可以理解"},{"start":12987.978,"end":13015.778,"text":"但是依據內政部的紀念日跟節日的實施方法來看有一些未放假的假日未放假的節日跟勞動部也有一點關係比如說婦女節這是婦女職場上面的這個重視勞動部是不是可以向內政部去爭取說婦女節是不是可以給婦女這些勞動的婦女放假我是說這個也是一個勞動部這邊可以去"},{"start":13017.619,"end":13033.558,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13033.738,"end":13048.295,"text":"我們的工時長那自然命比他們短我想這個應該大家都可以理解啦但是勞動部並不是為了資方的資動部所以勞動部還是要去思考一下我們要怎麼解決這個問題那前面只是跟"},{"start":13048.875,"end":13076.704,"text":"部長說明一下現在的狀況那其實我要提的是一個點就是目前我國的特休不管是勞工或公務員我們的特休的日數是依據你的年資去累計的嘛部長一定非常的清楚但是現在世界上很多國家他們的邏輯是不需要跟著年資來去累計比如說像我手邊查到的法國他一年的休假最多150天那這個我們不看"},{"start":13077.964,"end":13097.342,"text":"西班牙他一年至少30天的自主假期而且這個跟年資深淺無關那德國的話他的聯邦休假法是20天也跟年資無關所以部長這個特休這個東西需不需要跟年資綁在一起這個再麻煩部長能夠"},{"start":13099.123,"end":13126.613,"text":"請貴部去做研究然後兩個月內能夠給我一個研究的報告好嗎那當然我是蠻希望的啦就是我們現在鼓勵年輕人多生小孩多照顧小孩那是不是我們在特休的日數上面也能夠去思考不要跟年資一定要絕對綁在一起因為畢竟這是一個世界上很多國家的一個潮流是不是我們也可以仿效這個方向所以先麻煩兩個月內給我一個"},{"start":13128.494,"end":13152.886,"text":"報告那我們再來去看完報告之後我們來研究看國家可不可以朝這個方向去走這個跟全國這麼多的勞工有很大的關聯性好那再麻煩部長那呃我希望說這個東西對全國是有益的那請部長能夠重視這個議題好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來林國新再麻煩主席要才是他兩個月要要好好"},{"start":13153.996,"end":13161.278,"text":"再麻煩我們勞動部這邊按照吳宗憲委員剛剛給的意見好 謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請林國成委好 謝謝主席 請何部長還有我們"},{"start":13184.872,"end":13185.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13200.936,"end":13229.269,"text":"我想何部長大家都知道啦你對勞工啊因為本席啊也是勞工出身你對勞工確確實實啊是非常盡心啊也想要來幫助勞工啊做一些確保跟安全的工作這個無庸置疑大家勞工界啊對於都你對於都肯定但是我還是要拜託啦有些立委啊拜託你跟勞工有關的事啊你要勇於承擔"},{"start":13230.69,"end":13253.805,"text":"該答應的就答應因為保護勞工是你的職責替勞工爭取權利也是你勞動部長應該做的事所以在這裡我還是提醒你該勇於的就勇於該協調的就協調這樣的話會做的讓勞工覺得是百分百的勞動部長所以這個我要提醒我們部長"},{"start":13254.795,"end":13262.113,"text":"另外一個啊這個我們這個老花署的署長我必須就要提醒你一個"},{"start":13263.591,"end":13290.607,"text":"當然勞工啊本國勞工啊跟移工啊的勞工啊還是都要照顧但是我在這裡啊特別要花現那個那個要給部長跟署長啊特別提醒一件事在去年7月2號荷華移工被酒醉撞死到現在為止"},{"start":13291.906,"end":13298.871,"text":"不曉得何氣何寵昨天可憐啊 泰國官方才來陳請立委"},{"start":13301.257,"end":13329.131,"text":"部長他是合法移工過來這裡7月2號被酒駕撞死那這件事情我不曉得因為我很清楚我們那個勞花署這裡是有特別單位在管勞工管理也就是你合法聘入那當然仲介公司要負責這些輔導追蹤那據我了解在半年以內"},{"start":13330.592,"end":13351.582,"text":"他是要訪視的他是要訪視的那我就覺得很奇怪他過來四個月連訪視也沒有人死了以後各單位通通不管包括警察包括地檢署只開出死亡證明書是意外署長"},{"start":13353.203,"end":13370.832,"text":"你這件事情你們到底掌握有多少這個案子當然不是何部長但是最起碼我們勞花署這裡不能不知道管外勞管移工這個不能不知道所以署長你認為對這件案子你有什麼掌握沒有"},{"start":13372.553,"end":13397.923,"text":"跟委員報告齁 因為每一個發生這個個案 因為只要我們確認 第一個我們就會主動去聯繫 像這個案子我印象中 其實我們第一時間喔 馬上跟我們的地方政府跟我們的駐台機構 剛剛委員提到那個代股駐台辦事處 因為基本上因為合法移工 如果殺出到酒駕壯士 基本上這個對移工是一個好啦這件有沒有 這件有沒有結論"},{"start":13399.003,"end":13422.05,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子我們後續一定會追蹤因為只要是合法移動不是要後續喔那個蔡組長去年7月2號到現在你知道這件事情已經到了什麼階段他把骨灰潭都是用公家的力道把他送回去但是我請問一下"},{"start":13423.26,"end":13441.848,"text":"負責引進的仲介公司他都沒有給你們回報嗎?陶藝要跟你們回報欸!花生意外要跟你們回報欸!然後仿事結果要給你們回報欸!所以我不曉得現在到底掌握的情況是如何現在怎麼結果?"},{"start":13448.36,"end":13471.766,"text":"沒關係啦 我也不會為難你啦我知道你也管了很多啦要管執行還要管這些但是問題出來就是有瑕疵問題出來就是要改進所以人死了一年多仲介公司不跟你們回報地方政府勞動局不跟你們回報這叫什麼監督有問題"},{"start":13473.427,"end":13497.515,"text":"所以這個合法移工死了以後不明不白到現在檢察官喝酒你知道死了多慘嗎他是酒醉撞他以後跳過去前隔壁快速道路結果一步給他忍過另外一步再給他忍過"},{"start":13498.854,"end":13524.726,"text":"部長 署長我們將心比心雖然他是移工但是我們是合法引進的移工這是國跟國的對移工勞犬的職災保障這是丟臉欸所以我希望部長你要下令去追究不管是你勞動部不管你是外交部這些東西都要聯繫啊不是嗎部長"},{"start":13527.828,"end":13554.965,"text":"我們來這個跟泰國辦事處我們也來聯繫瞭解一下這個個案這個陳情案子很可笑又很可憐是泰國辦事處跟我陳情的這就代表什麼就代表雖然我們泰國的移工不多可是最起碼的話問題很多所以在這個部分部長我拜託你以你部長之尊"},{"start":13555.825,"end":13579.302,"text":"了解這件事情對實則有所交代這對全世界的人移工來這裡人家才會放心好不好所以結果我希望我們蔡署長跟部長給我一個資訊追到哪一個階段好不好我們一個禮拜內就跟委員討論謝謝林國城委員接下來羅志強委員發言謝謝"},{"start":13591.846,"end":13605.96,"text":"主席有請部長有請何部長委員好首先想請教部長您覺得在這幾年我們民進黨政府的努力之下低薪的問題改善的如何"},{"start":13607.992,"end":13623.701,"text":"不敢說百分百可是說真的委員我們確實真的有提升包括最低工資到經常性薪資那我想請教您那個過去三年受雇員工的經常性薪資是增加還是減少"},{"start":13624.813,"end":13631.718,"text":"是增加的啊增加的嗎你要不要去看勞動統計網勞動統計網是政府的網站吧是2021年他列的數據是-0.162022年是-0.242023年是-0.25部長那我是這個勞動統計網是外星網嗎我看錯了嗎"},{"start":13650.117,"end":13675.854,"text":"你數字可能還是掌握清楚一點好不好這是我們幫助從勞動統計網找的數字沒關係我們繼續來講我想跟部長說會後你再把資料給我我跟部長說連續三年如果按照勞動統計網受僱員工經常薪資薪資都是下降的那我覺得說真的我覺得部長勞動部的努力空間可能要更大一點不好意思委員"},{"start":13685.642,"end":13686.783,"text":"我再想請教你也是根據勞動統計網啦過去10年裡哪一年實質薪資減少最多部長告訴我"},{"start":13710.267,"end":13726.553,"text":"當然我看你真的對勞動統計網不太熟悉政府的資訊網站的數字還是注意一下我告訴部長就是去年負1.79那這個減幅是除了2008年2009年全世界爆發金融危機以來勞動統計網從1999年20多年來統計裡面減幅最高的一年"},{"start":13740.526,"end":13751.307,"text":"沒有國際金融危機也沒有重大天災我不太清楚我去年如果說實質薪資大幅倒退的原因是什麼部長可以告訴我嗎去年到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":13752.934,"end":13773.124,"text":"疫情期間 疫情結束 去年疫情結束 可是才剛結束 理論上應該發生在疫情當下 疫情結束 理論上應該經濟是復甦的吧 尤其去年是疫情剛結束那一年 經濟應該是開始復甦吧 沒有關係部長我再請教下一個問題"},{"start":13776.793,"end":13798.386,"text":"111年,受僱員工全年薪資平均數是69.3萬,對不對?這主計總署的資料那你認為有多少比例的勞工薪資比69.3萬低?就是比這個所謂的勞工的朋友比這個平均數的數字低"},{"start":13801.124,"end":13827.036,"text":"我也告訴您啦是68.61所以換言之有近七成的勞工薪資是沒有達到平均我先這樣講我跟那個部長為什麼要問這個問題你應該知道我們最近這個物價的騰貴的問題是勞工朋友很在乎的嘛對不對像剛剛前吳宗憲委員也講到我們台灣的工時也是全世界這個排行非常赫赫有名的工時長嘛對不對"},{"start":13828.217,"end":13856.574,"text":"那你這樣物價騰貴工時超長又再薪資倒退我說真的這種勞工三苦身為勞動部部長我覺得你們的努力可能要再多加一把勁可以嗎我以為不過我們工時其實真的那個不是你跟我講現在我們工時並不長啊沒有沒有我們工時那是因為我們的全時的工時人數多啦部長你去你去跟你去跟我們勞工朋友交代一下如果你的你的所謂的"},{"start":13857.194,"end":13882.764,"text":"政府的首長經驗的觀感落差跟我們現在勞工朋友落差這麼大的話我覺得那就像你不太了解我們的勞動統計網的數字一樣我會有點擔心啦所以我跟你講就是說要多一點同理心那是解決問題的前提我想要問您下一個問題政府說要推動五年期的AI發展戰略計畫要砸多少錢五年要砸多少錢"},{"start":13887.356,"end":13903.353,"text":"190億元那當然AI不是現在開始做其實政府這個過去都有投入一定的預算那我想請教一下您知道勞動部過去針對職安有運用科技智慧的計畫是哪個計畫你知道嗎我們職安署嗎對對對"},{"start":13905.418,"end":13905.878,"text":"我請署長回答好嗎?"},{"start":13922.703,"end":13927.028,"text":"我講經費你看對不對啦一億四千萬嘛對不對一億四千三百三十萬嘛"},{"start":13939.62,"end":13941.861,"text":"這個平台資料庫設計以來他是要來建制全國工作者職業安全衛生資料結果花了一億十千萬總共只收入到一成"},{"start":13964.924,"end":13984.231,"text":"三年的時間只收錄到一成九成的資料沒有部長你覺得你滿意嗎我問部長啊你滿意嗎所以我跟你講AI我們當然是贊同但是如果以過去這種績效我覺得恐怕要加把勁了李少謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝羅志祥委員接下來請吳琛琛委員發言"},{"start":13995.302,"end":14016.121,"text":"麻煩何部長有請何部長委員好部長好辛苦你了勞動部還是感謝勞動部幾乎每天都有壯世代的新聞各地都在推動55plus的一些就業獎勵的活動"},{"start":14018.363,"end":14041.521,"text":"所以我要封我們部長勞動部是壯世代的自由女神壯世代能不能解放要看勞動部對你期待很高不過我要跟部長也報告這一期上週的封面有提到預言臺灣再4年恐找不到新的員工"},{"start":14045.224,"end":14055.012,"text":"用了三十幾頁報導百大企業對於高齡員工的聘僱的情形這個勞動部的關注我們看這個情況百強企業90%上市歸公司這個是從2023年的企業永續報告書裡面統計出來的"},{"start":14072.109,"end":14092.915,"text":"進用的新進的員工9393是50歲以下對於51歲以上只有7%大家還是不太聘用比例還是很低所以勞動部這麼努力在推但是還是很低但是事實上在全體員工比例當中51歲已經佔了20%所以這裡要問到2028年2028年下次總統的選舉"},{"start":14102.591,"end":14114.144,"text":"那這個臺灣人口紅利結束也就是說工作人口低於三分之二然後現在在講我們45歲還要稱他叫中高齡嗎"},{"start":14117.775,"end":14138.105,"text":"政府還在歧視高齡者嗎?企業只要新鮮的肝嗎?台灣還是屬於這樣等級的社會嗎?所以這已經到了企業生死存亡的關頭企業有沒有這個警覺性?看起來是沒有所以勞動部還是要加把勁"},{"start":14139.125,"end":14139.925,"text":"另外一個看了就在11年後"},{"start":14165.242,"end":14173.032,"text":"青年的工作25到44歲只有23%占不到四分之一然後"},{"start":14177.386,"end":14196.94,"text":"這個45 45歲以上所謂中高齡以上還是社會的主力所以呢我們要對這塊更加的重視更加的重視可以好那我這裡要請請問部長就上個上個會期跟我跟王真旭委員共同推提案推通過勞基法第54條的修正案"},{"start":14198.641,"end":14209.669,"text":"這個修正案就是鬆綁的勞資協商對有餘願工中可以延長資這個引起媒體很大的幾乎是頭版報導這個是一個劃時代勞動部做一個劃時代的一個創舉"},{"start":14214.192,"end":14237.019,"text":"但到現在很多人還是在質疑這個只是一個宣誓性的因為本來勞資協商就可以延長了還需要你立法嗎所以跟修法前跟修法後有什麼不一樣而且這個協商如果是完全是不公平的是僱主同不同意的話那這也不需要協商了所以我這裡要問這個"},{"start":14238.939,"end":14259.809,"text":"在三讀之後像在今年的審計部有針對勞動部這裡對於在強制退休繼續聘僱上的主導權還是由僱主掌握那對有意願繼續工作的勞工恐被迫接受減薪或其他不公平的待遇導致更不穩定的職場環境這些審計部的"},{"start":14262.73,"end":14268.715,"text":"的研究報告那我要問部長請問這個協商機制什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":14271.849,"end":14288.901,"text":"委員報告其實我們本來勞資雙方就有協商的機制本來就有協商機制就是說當然針對你這個延後退休的這樣子的協商他這個議題你當然一定本來現在就有勞資會議或是公會的團體協約去協商那麼其實我現在也是在鼓勵應該是這樣那是一個文化的問題就是說"},{"start":14299.289,"end":14315.928,"text":"我們台灣中小企業居多啦吼那麼我們如果能夠從政府部門或是我們就從國公營企業帶頭的話從有規模的企業帶頭來做就是說你從有工會協商能力的這樣子的企業可能帶頭協商"},{"start":14317.769,"end":14340.76,"text":"所以看起來我們這個法通過之後沒有協商辦法就協商辦法是舊的沒有對這個專屬因為這件事情這個事情非常的重大不論只是比如說一般性的協商對延後退休然後原來的協商這一件事情非常的重要所以我是不是可以請勞動部"},{"start":14343.011,"end":14367.887,"text":"專對這個退休協商這個是不是應該有一個專屬的而且這個必須要是站在公平的像比如說這裡我提到像那個北歐國家像丹麥他們對於這種員工勞工提出他有工作意願僱主必須要提出書面如果僱主不答應的話必須提出書面說他會影響到"},{"start":14369.404,"end":14370.905,"text":"謝謝吳村臣委員接下來請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":14411.674,"end":14436.661,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請我們勞動部部長有請何部長委員好部長好先請教部長一個問題請問我國會是會邁入超高齡社會就2022今年明年明年是在2025年對國會邁入超高齡社會那部長本期在上個會期有提到80歲以上的長者免巴士量表請問後續你們對這個議題討論到什麼地方目前進度為何"},{"start":14440.713,"end":14455.718,"text":"委員我們當然80歲以上免巴氏量表這是一個修這是我們在黨委員的修法案然後我們比較不贊成用一個80歲這樣的線來劃分免巴氏量表我們現在用擴大多元免評"},{"start":14457.879,"end":14470.347,"text":"來這樣的措施來處理所以我們現在其實所謂的擴大多元免貧已經有包括第一個使用長照服務6個月以上是長照服務2.0半年以上就可以免貧了然後要針對這個2.0長照2.0這邊提到方官看護申請只要連續使用長照2.0半年以上嗎"},{"start":14482.215,"end":14496.564,"text":"有輕度失智診斷或是特定中度的身心障礙就可以免巴氏量表可是使用長照2.0半年以上就表示他有照護需求那這半年的空窗請問部長家屬要怎麼來處理"},{"start":14498.198,"end":14525.398,"text":"你說6個月那個空窗嗎對就表示他竟然已經使用半年以上就表示他有照護需求那家屬要怎麼來他本來就有啊他本來就有我是指他就是有這個需求他們就是需要巴士量表我是說他如果我們把他來放寬的話那比如那如果這些當事人他們去醫院定期都要回診那眼前的空窗期在家屬發現他們有異狀的時候又需要上班的話那這些家人怎麼"},{"start":14525.698,"end":14549.887,"text":"是就是所以我們也推了擴大擴大喘息就是說還有包括我們現在我就是要推那個多元陪伴服務方案就是希望能夠cover這種有短期照顧需求的就是我們跟NGO合作然後那個跟讓NGO跟六職仲介合作然後那麼我們聘移工"},{"start":14551.167,"end":14551.347,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14570.163,"end":14597.989,"text":"民怨的財源那第二是高齡者超過90%都跟子女同住那所以高齡者的狀況他們的情形他們的子女最知道那當高齡者他們出現退化的問題的時候那子女只能先在他們申請政府的支援之前他們優先想到的就是來申請看護那子女他們才能夠順利出門上班可是那這邊請問部長一個問題喔金水跟台積的看護他們的落差大概是多大台積的看護跟外籍"},{"start":14599.551,"end":14600.734,"text":"當然差距相當大部長瞭解嗎?"},{"start":14607.386,"end":14628.542,"text":"以現在當然可能有到一半的差距就本席的了解外籍的看護是兩萬多塊一個月那我們台籍的看護一個月可能要五六萬塊所以這差距非常大那部長那台籍看護一天的薪水行情是台幣2800多元那是很多上班族都是付班不起的金額"},{"start":14630.162,"end":14656.951,"text":"護士長者他們要去上班那長者在家的時候可能會有一些狀況比如說他們忘記服藥或是跌倒還是煮飯忘記關火或是出門的時候因為認知的問題還是他們肌力退化那導致出車禍或在路上跌倒然後沒有旁邊沒有人照顧那部長你有看到他們這些家庭的問題嗎是是是所以我才要推那個多元陪伴服務方案是那是不是放寬巴士量表我們來修法的話會比較快一點"},{"start":14657.751,"end":14677.259,"text":"我們也會擴大多元免貧就是我們比較擔心用這個年齡限來劃會變成有需要跟沒需要的全部都會申請那會造成現在的缺工抗護工的缺工的狀態會更嚴峻主要是有這個顧慮"},{"start":14679.32,"end":14692.407,"text":"會造成他們會挑工作那麼你會更難照顧對就是說你那個照顧會更緊繃啦那個照顧的所以這個恐怕沒有辦法真的解決這個照顧的問題"},{"start":14693.968,"end":14697.652,"text":"市場勞動力不足,除了勞動力不足之外,人口高齡化對於看護的需求是增加的。我們必須要對這件事解決人力的問題。"},{"start":14710.267,"end":14737.5,"text":"對所以我們現在也在對這一個我覺得為什麼要推多元陪伴服務方案就是這樣子希望能夠把移工也進度照顧領域這個部分能夠來把它用國家的力量把它建置起來這樣子那部長那本席還是希望您回去可以和就是我們勞動部再討論一套就是巴士表演表的政策那根據本席今天向您提出的目前很多家庭的需求是是是當然謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":14739.601,"end":14743.866,"text":"好謝謝邱樂華委員接下來請牛錫廷委員發言好謝謝主席這個勞動部部長有請有請何部長"},{"start":14759.711,"end":14787.305,"text":"委員好部長午安前一段時間颱風清洗風災政治學又被端上檯面各地的網友無不在臉書上敲碗盛讚各地的首長長得很帥或長得很美就是希望在放颱風架的時候可以從寬認定讓颱風架大家可以休息一下這部長以前的時候可能大家對這件事情不會那麼在乎可是這幾年大家對於颱風架其實是非常積極在要求部長覺得原因是什麼"},{"start":14789.616,"end":14814.196,"text":"當然我想氣候變遷也許颱風不是氣候啦你從一般人民百姓的角度出發就是工作太累了嘛希望颱風當然我們都同意政府在決策的過程中當然應該以安全為第一要務對不對但是你會發現有的時候欸剛剛好風災來然後沒風沒雨的時候結果大家跑去KTV跑去逛街對不對欸那個平常是什麼時候做的事是假日的時候在做的事"},{"start":14814.716,"end":14814.816,"text":"兩千...當然..."},{"start":14844.827,"end":14844.847,"text":"對﹖那個"},{"start":14866.397,"end":14895.797,"text":"去年我們是2019個小時對,超過2000還是一樣我們減少了85個小時南韓年度總工時1904日本1626其實跟台灣其實我們經濟上都是競爭的對手可是人家工時就是比我們短而且南韓跟日本都還有15到16天的國定假日其實都比台灣還多所以這個假日的考慮一直都是勞工各級勞工團體跟各級勞工心中非常期待的過去休一例一休的時候把七天假拿掉是所有勞工心中的痛"},{"start":14896.677,"end":14915.343,"text":"我認為這是應該翻篇的因為那個是前朝政府的決策新的政府上任大家其實都對於這個放假制度的再調整有所期待所以本期也提出了這個國定假日跟節日跟紀念日的實施辦法我們把它入法變成條例的方式來做處理就是希望可以幫勞工把假討回來"},{"start":14918.226,"end":14945.306,"text":"除了這個國定假日之外其實台灣不只是國定假日比人家少這個台灣的特休也比很多歐美國家都少歐美國家動輒20天以上的特休甚至有一個月甚至到一個半月的特休兩個月的我都聽過那台灣的特休價格相對少特休少國定假日又少那當然台灣變成過勞之島請問部長新上任新的政府對於解決工時過長的問題針對放假的政策勞動部有沒有任何的修正的想法"},{"start":14946.598,"end":14968.44,"text":"委員第一個我們台灣的這個年總工時你要看他的內涵我們因為我們全時工作者多那日韓部分公司因為我們的部分公司工作者很少只有3%左右日韓他們都有高達20%左右甚至日本有25%的部分公司工作者"},{"start":14969.261,"end":14973.825,"text":"即便是跟全職工作者相比那你想歐美國家也是全職工作者多對不對那他們的工時甚至更少對不對我們比好不比爛嘛"},{"start":14992.161,"end":14992.782,"text":"部長你現在的想法是什麼?"},{"start":15004.202,"end":15030.011,"text":"委員我們在週休二日修法當年一例一休修法的時候已經處理這個問題了當年就是因為增加了116每年都可以修116天比過去多增加休假因為週休二日嘛一例一休那麼所以我們才把七天假所謂拿掉而且委員七天假還有一個大問題是他們都是過時的"},{"start":15032.352,"end":15046.904,"text":"內容可以調整這個是政治因素本席心態非常開放甚至這7天彈性處理我都是可以接受這沒關係這等我們到修法的時候再來討論但是我要提醒部長如果當初我們只是為了落實所謂的週休二日的制度"},{"start":15047.304,"end":15063.458,"text":"只是改了這個東西而不要去砍七天假的話那勞基法其實往好的方向修正可是就是因為你砍了這個七天假反而讓他變成勞工心中的痛我認為在政府改朝換代的同時啊應該做重新的思考現在世界各地很多主流甚至是比如週休三日他的概念都慢慢開始出來"},{"start":15064.179,"end":15083.199,"text":"所以是不是這樣子的一個壓榨勞工的這種這減少放假的然後還導致颱風架等等衍生問題的狀況本期認為有必要來做一些調整所以這些案子這個今天日及節日實施條例草案很快就會有公聽會很快就會有審查希望勞動部做好準備也希望不要被過去的框架跟包袱所拖累"},{"start":15083.9,"end":15108.719,"text":"如果能夠審視現在的國際趨勢或者是站在勞工的本位從降低我們的工時提高勞工的待遇來出發做好的修繕這是我們期待部長上任之後可以完成的重要政策目標請部長納入思考可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員發言接下來請麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":15121.133,"end":15123.938,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請勞動部部長請部長你好"},{"start":15129.653,"end":15152.516,"text":"部長,這個針對現在產業缺工的狀況,部長你應該心中聽到很多企業都會抱怨那你們心中覺得說這個產業缺工到底是什麼原因是薪水不夠還是年輕人對於產業對於工作項目不期待到底是什麼原因"},{"start":15153.766,"end":15161.747,"text":"委員其實缺工的原因當然一方面有結構性的因素當然少子化嘛那另一方面當然也有疫後"},{"start":15163.549,"end":15185.424,"text":"臨時性的需求的爆發因為前面有很多人就退場了嘛比如說服務業好了那麼這一後他臨時性的需求爆發亦是找不到人也有這樣的因素這個因素是比較大的事實上對產業我相信你都知道事實上他們在招募的時候他們是沒辦法"},{"start":15186.925,"end":15211.452,"text":"從等級的年輕人去尋找到他們需要的勞動力需求因為意願不高因為現在年輕人比較不喜歡被管而且他們現在進入AI的時代他們也覺得說更喜歡是比較自由高度自由的所以你以類似在工廠類似在餐飲在服務業這個需要被管理"},{"start":15212.452,"end":15223.34,"text":"的產業年輕人不去所以他們需要移工但是我們台灣的移工政策我們還是活在過去三K五極致就是要有一定的比例"},{"start":15224.229,"end":15244.916,"text":"吼要這個比例啊那你為了這個比例的我比方說好我食品製造業我製造業啊我製造業食品製造我是屬於西級的那我西級的一個食品製造業我為了請一個移工我可能要請我這樣要請多少要請七個本級的勞工我才能聘請一個移工問題我這七個我就找不來"},{"start":15246.161,"end":15267.87,"text":"我就找不來這七個所以我根本要請這樣一個移工都很困難所以部長你再認真去看吶吼現在我們臺灣都是比跟日韓對比嘛現在日本跟韓國他們就在做移工政策的競賽兩個國家在那邊說吼我對一個國家對移工比較讚所以我們我舉日本吶吼"},{"start":15268.63,"end":15286.858,"text":"日本在2019年就開放藍領可以招募外國移工然後居留5年然後針對建築業造船船舶機械業的監督的職務無居留期限而且還能帶家人一起前往"},{"start":15288.359,"end":15312.686,"text":"無拘留期限捏我們現在臺灣我們只有叫做陸籍我們還沒有永居捏臺灣現在連永居的制度都還沒有日本就已經創造了這樣無拘留期限還可以帶家人一起去住在2023年就去年6月的時候日本還更進一步他所謂岸田要在這所項的所謂他抓雙倍工包括製造業包括農業包括旅宿餐飲"},{"start":15314.762,"end":15318.691,"text":"家的產業都可以聘請移工也是無限期居留"},{"start":15320.342,"end":15345.053,"text":"也是可以帶家人同往哇我們現在台灣餐飲業都還沒有看都沒辦法變成移工的那我們都一直有一個觀念說哎不行不行這些移工來會搶了台灣年輕人的工作可是問題事實也不是這樣啊那既然我們知道事實就不是這樣的話我們為什麼不大步向前走把整個移工政策徹底的鬆綁"},{"start":15347.665,"end":15350.931,"text":"讓整個臺灣的勞動力補足而且只要臺灣越國際臺灣就越安全"},{"start":15355.114,"end":15377.785,"text":"部長我想要聽一下你的是委員這個問題確實就是委員是像講的是當今我們所面臨的重大問題是我們自己在調查的最新的缺工調查裡面我們也發現您講的其實是所謂的中階技術人才這一塊是我們目前最缺的我們其實在最基層的體力"},{"start":15379.326,"end":15393.526,"text":"的移工內部份其實補的都OK了那當然一個是部長你有沒有看到我剛講的包括餐飲啊包括這個住宿業他是沒有辦法的啊我剛有舉例到啊日本都已經開放了啊"},{"start":15394.861,"end":15396.322,"text":"委員我注意到我們現在當然經濟委員會有很多委員也提了過去的新經濟移民法"},{"start":15417.142,"end":15432.619,"text":"﹗"},{"start":15433.019,"end":15451.21,"text":"會跟國發會合作,會有一些鬆綁關於中階技術人才的開放。對,對外型人才的開放。OK,除了中階技術人才,事實上一些傳統的比較工作性質比較辛苦的,所以我們說的3K產業,他們對移工需求也是很大。對委員這部分我們會來檢討。而且你們在檢討的速度很慢。"},{"start":15452.49,"end":15477.302,"text":"我剛以前我還跟你說這個漁產的加工漁產的加工對不對從我從當時15%那我再跟你們講欸這不公平因為水產品的加工是15%那如果是蓄產品的加工是25%我講應該要讓它一致啊為什麼水產品對不對做水產的含含那個切地肉的為什麼要讓他沒工啊他想我講這個要檢討結果用兩天的時間"},{"start":15480.524,"end":15497.398,"text":"才把他檢討讓他一致那我最近我有發現說欸台灣我們有很多在做高空煙火的不是傳統的那種炮竹工廠在做高空煙火的我們店舖也有一間嘛欸這個高空煙火他是賣到迪士尼可是你知道做煙火的產業具有危險性"},{"start":15498.649,"end":15514.597,"text":"要去聘請台灣人有困難有困難所以他需要移工哇沒辦法他還沒有被開放那如果我要招待個兩年的話在在一個產業讓他可以被檢討進去要兩年的時間真的是太久了啦"},{"start":15515.077,"end":15538.906,"text":"委員我了解我其實我現在針對這一種只要是主管機關有提案我們都盡量鬆綁像最近我們已經通過農業部再增加8000的農業移工然後還有包括環境資源環境部他對這一種資源回收產業方面沒有過去沒有適用移工的我們也開放讓他讓他進來因為我聽到了很多東南亞的他們上次給我訊息"},{"start":15544.628,"end":15568.209,"text":"現在去泰國工作 去當泰國的移工 去泰國做移工 今天那間不比台灣更賣所以現在很多人跑去泰國做移工喔 以前是泰國人來我們台灣來幫我們做工作的 現在是大家都跑去泰國了所以這個世界正在改變 全世界都面對少子化 也不是只有台灣有少子化"},{"start":15568.609,"end":15593.47,"text":"但是臺灣的政策卻走得比人家還慢這個是我們要趕快加緊腳步來調整好不好好謝謝委員接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在請廖先祥委員廖先祥委員廖先祥委員不在請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請岳元之委員"},{"start":15608.234,"end":15610.876,"text":"不好意思,麻煩請部長,謝謝來,請部長委員好你好,部長好我先問一下,我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼"},{"start":15630.221,"end":15651.335,"text":"這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休一方面是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口解決一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友"},{"start":15659.701,"end":15689.701,"text":"﹗"},{"start":15690.742,"end":15716.763,"text":"我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃你說欲缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況"},{"start":15719.445,"end":15733.615,"text":"阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做?老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是"},{"start":15735.477,"end":15760.67,"text":"這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事警政總處啦再請他含釋把學校需求告訴他"},{"start":15761.79,"end":15773.921,"text":"我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休"},{"start":15775.645,"end":15797.298,"text":"是 謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的的落實這個勞基法54條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬"},{"start":15797.958,"end":15823.07,"text":"有嗎?確定了?什麼時候會告訴大家?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是因為今天是你在嘛所以你就很知道要回答一下我們其實是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有應對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎"},{"start":15826.311,"end":15847.973,"text":"當然我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們也鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧"},{"start":15849.274,"end":15869.489,"text":"你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎?沒有嗎?我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是?有機會出城是不是?那大概什麼時候?有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概3年後"},{"start":15870.529,"end":15894.457,"text":"大概什麼時候我們來積極了解一下好不好沒有啦 不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快我們盡量積極來促成大概多久我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不 我的意思是說我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照所以是行政院在卡"},{"start":15895.282,"end":15897.243,"text":"我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦"},{"start":15912.749,"end":15934.915,"text":"比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是第一個希望解"},{"start":15937.216,"end":15937.236,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":15966.394,"end":15982.345,"text":"好謝謝謝謝葉委員接下來請鄭正成委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在請高金素美委員請高金素美委員高金素美委員不在請楊委員要來選擇"},{"start":15996.401,"end":16014.971,"text":"謝謝主席,主席請教何部長來有請部長部長好,今天做業務報告我覺得勞動部現在可能最主要的業務就是我們要面對勞保的財務問題"},{"start":16020.588,"end":16039.226,"text":"我今天大概就是簡要的跟部長來探討幾個問題第一個問題就是基於政府施政的連貫性跟一致性所以有幾個許前部長曾經講過的"},{"start":16042.429,"end":16063.306,"text":"的政策宣誓我先來確認一下所以學員部長曾經講過就是說勞保年金重視掉了烏紗帽他也要做部長你有沒有這種決心不過他有這個決心他也是到現在都沒有做你有沒有決心"},{"start":16066.49,"end":16083.443,"text":"我就是說勞保年改的問題因為我們現在都已經用預算撥補然後再落實改革這其實就是改革的一環可是我要跟您強調這個所謂的勞保年改在我的"},{"start":16087.902,"end":16089.144,"text":"這個好像也是大家的原則"},{"start":16103.08,"end":16103.66,"text":"對我已經提案了齁"},{"start":16132.844,"end":16158.564,"text":"是是是這當然我們尊重那部長你既然直接就跳到這裡我就直接問就是說你的概念裡面在不砍年金我是講說不砍年金可能是大家的最大攻勢那不砍年金你覺得你要怎麼推動改革對所以我的改革就是撥補或者我直接問好了就是說明年政府撥補多少"},{"start":16159.656,"end":16166.24,"text":"一千三百億後年呢後年一樣維持這樣的水準或是更多那到後年呢"},{"start":16168.854,"end":16194.961,"text":"現在最大的問題就是說大家都覺得退休勞工領的年金其實已經以臺灣目前的生活物價指數已經算偏低了所以要再減少真的不可能可能馬上會變成社會救助的一部分要去找衛福部領錢"},{"start":16200.737,"end":16220.251,"text":"所以還是只有波普波普是其中當然是波普就是最主要的啦不是波普應該這麼講我講白話波普是最簡單的可是問題是政府的財政有沒有辦法一直支應"},{"start":16221.962,"end":16242.628,"text":"以目前的狀況來看還是樂觀的啦因為是這樣齁 鐵塔的衙門流水的關啦就是說許民村撐了6年離職了那都是撥補嘛就是提出唯一的改革方向就是撥補好那你現在也說撥補那這裡你們那最少你們要去精算說說明年撥補多少後年撥補多少"},{"start":16252.75,"end":16270.355,"text":"對財政的對整個中央政府預算的衝擊多少我相信一個保險保險人口超過1000萬在台灣占比那麼高的情況下你們要撥補可能藍綠白沒有委員敢說不"},{"start":16276.977,"end":16304.952,"text":"可是問題是你們最少也必須要去算出來說到底到了哪一年變成我們搶救的不是勞保年金是中央政府總預算懂我的意思嗎其實你想想看我們才撥補一千兩百一千三百億我們現在的政府總預算是三兆一千億就是我們的政府的這個會逐年提高的"},{"start":16306.109,"end":16333.949,"text":"我當然知道現在一千多億可是搞不好三年以後要變成三千億還不至於啦還不至於我們這個我們都有我們有去去精算過這些數字啦對所以以目前政府的財政來講還是相對樂觀的我們是絕對有能力撥補的所以就是就是除了撥補以外並沒有其他的想法"},{"start":16335.531,"end":16352.658,"text":"我們希望另外一個如果勞基法54條這一個所謂的我們合意延退其實延退也是一個符合現在中高齡就業的趨勢這是一個在現在也許勉強"},{"start":16354.039,"end":16378.805,"text":"是社會可以接受的一個做法可是呢我們也是希望能夠先從這個雙方合議柔性的延退方式來下手這樣子總算是還講了一個延退不過延退呢對於整個勞保基金的危機其實是杯水車薪就是說影響沒有很大還有沒有其他的"},{"start":16379.685,"end":16385.306,"text":"今天就是你把你想得到的都講一下"},{"start":16386.644,"end":16403.81,"text":"我能講的就是這樣了因為說真的當然你想想看我們還有包括政府的財政政府的經濟發展的好也是一個很重要的因素啦所以你看我們撥補1300億下去我們歷年我們累積撥補了3870億嘛那我們是下去再繼續進行投資的當然我們的經濟發展的好"},{"start":16413.666,"end":16440.243,"text":"對,我們經濟發展得好每年收益率現在是14%、15%嘛所以我們像去年我們去年到今年8月我們賺了1300億等於是我們撥補了兩次欸如果是一種我們都要撥補每年1300億來算啦今年一到八月就有1300億基金的收益本來就是基金的來源了啦基金的投資收益本來就是基金來源我們的勞保的基金是一個"},{"start":16441.564,"end":16465.079,"text":"這是一個整體我們要整體來看待啦就是說你不要只從收入多少支出多少這樣去看我們有多元的收入欸我們有投資的收益不是現在就是現在就是賣一些不夠所以才要撥撥補嘛啊都都部長你懂我的意思嗎你現在不用再去再去講其他的的基金"},{"start":16466.368,"end":16468.129,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":16488.036,"end":16488.957,"text":"這一句話我倒不認同"},{"start":16518.187,"end":16535.415,"text":"我覺得怎麼讓怎麼讓讓勞保健全化然後讓勞工安心才是一個好的政府你說經濟的發展假如沒有辦法直接直接直接"},{"start":16537.199,"end":16562.644,"text":"直接導致勞保可以健全的改革發展然後讓退休的勞工我剛剛講過他的投保人數幾乎佔了台灣的半數一個影響面這麼大的東西那今天看起來就是就是部長目前的想法也就只有波普啦波普我剛剛講過我已經有幫你們"},{"start":16566.385,"end":16580.418,"text":"幫你們提案齁要把基金的來源包括政府的撥補那我們也希望執政黨可以支持"},{"start":16581.599,"end":16608.094,"text":"政府負擔最終支付責任這樣子的法律修正因為勞工辛苦了一輩子到最後現在領的錢已經夠少了我今天實驗的關係還沒有跟你討論到目前領的再搭配通貨膨脹過10年以後勞工的退休生活會多麼艱困"},{"start":16608.908,"end":16631.905,"text":"我絕對支持撥補入法的修法這個是沒有問題的不過我還是要提醒部長就是假如說假如說勞動部就是對於勞保勞保年改的政策方向就是一直以來都是政府撥補那我覺得這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決了謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":16641.352,"end":16642.814,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":16653.277,"end":16657.061,"text":"五個月當中勞動部要怎麼樣確實保障每一位勞工的權益其實我在最近也聽到很多就是說"},{"start":16674.117,"end":16697.365,"text":"現在其實傳統產業非常的不景氣這是確實喔傳統產業真的我們看到可能就是一些電子產業半導體算是還非常非常的好可是傳統產業真的非常的不景氣那我想請教就是說在針對這個勞工的這個權益剛剛楊委員有特別提到有關這個這個部長講就是說撥補就是"},{"start":16701.966,"end":16707.408,"text":"對於勞工的權益我們勞動部這邊還有什麼需要再加強的是當然委員謝謝委員就是的提醒我想勞工的權益當然永遠都會是我們需要努力的方向跟目標那麼我想當前對我來講就是"},{"start":16725.595,"end":16737.327,"text":"希望能夠提升勞工薪資是我上任以來也是一個很重要的工作那麼要務實的去面對缺工的問題也不能讓缺工等於低薪這也是我另外一個要面對的課題所以這中間的全行拿捏當然我們都必須去面對"},{"start":16742.512,"end":16751.258,"text":"那是我想委員當然提示就是傳產傳產這邊所面臨的困境我們也看到這個問題所以我在最低工資雖然有漲上來我也對中小微企業我們提出了補助方案我們每一個員工可以讓他補助到1萬塊然後一個企業最多可以補助10萬這個"},{"start":16766.067,"end":16767.449,"text":"其實我們知道說勞工就是算是比較弱勢"},{"start":16784.549,"end":16809.753,"text":"所以我們也希望說勞動部針對勞工權益的部分真的要實時知道就是說勞工真的非常的辛苦要怎麼樣去保障他們的權益那部長我想請教就是說監察院也有表示勞動部跟新北市政府對於這個大量解雇的外籍漁工沒有一個有效的通報機制但因為外籍漁工他也沒有勞保嘛"},{"start":16813.275,"end":16818.639,"text":"有勞保就業保險有將外景漁工納進去?我們近海的漁業現在都讓他適用勞基法業就業保險的部分有納進去嗎?"},{"start":16832.149,"end":16833.19,"text":"外籍移工的生活"},{"start":16850.986,"end":16872.72,"text":"我們是從媒體上面看到的所以我不知道說勞動部跟地方政府你們針對這一部分你們要怎麼樣去保障這些外籍漁工因為如果其實在媒體這樣公布出來甚至如果外媒外籍外國的媒體公布其實對台灣的整體形象是非常不好"},{"start":16873.4,"end":16897.062,"text":"所以我是認為就是說勞動部針對這一部分你們未來要怎麼如果說要被解雇的話那應該要有一個有效的通報應該要有一個管道啊委員其實這個都一直這個是有有這個通報機制的啦那麼就業服務法裡面我們對這樣的被資遣的移工當然他就是允許他轉換雇主嘛"},{"start":16898.022,"end":16922.795,"text":"這是第一個給他的保障第二個我們在所謂的大量解雇法齁其實在如果他可以跟業主協商的話我們沒有排除移工的移工都可以如果說協商雙方可以給付之前或者是什麼費之前費什麼這些移工都一樣可以享用到對那麼關於外籍移工的問題是有他的特殊性啦因為"},{"start":16924.296,"end":16943.62,"text":"外景漁工又分遠洋跟近海您提到的像監察院他糾正的這個是近海的這是算近海的他確實是適用牢籍法沒有錯不過他有一個特性我們近海的漁業他要出海捕魚他會有中間休餘"},{"start":16945.981,"end":16965.606,"text":"議員．"},{"start":16965.706,"end":16985.359,"text":"你也要考慮我們的產業特性啊比如說我的農業我就是有農盲跟這個的本事或是漁業也一樣你不能說一律強制要這個漁業的雇主他在休餘的期間也要雇用他這個就真的是不是很好那這些外籍義工他已經到臺灣就已經在這邊了那你怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":16992.223,"end":16992.644,"text":"我請署長再補充說明一下"},{"start":17004.964,"end":17028.635,"text":"我跟委員報告這一次因為新北市它發生了這個休餘的情況確實我們跟農業部漁業署就發現到這種情況之下可能會對外籍移工有造成一個權益上的受損所以第一個監察院當初在關心的時候其實我們跟漁業署現在已經建立了預警跟通報機制那因為所有漁船如果要休餘他是要通報漁政機關那漁政機關過去確實這個訊息沒有傳達給我們"},{"start":17032.057,"end":17056.848,"text":"那現在我們已經建立一個橫向他未來就是說定期會把這些休餘的漁船會跟我們勾肌那勾肌如果確認這個漁工真的因為受到休餘的影響沒有工作我們第一時間我們跟地方政府就開始啟動我們的訪視關懷那這裡面可能會有幾個不同情況有的就是說因為他期間過長那漁工可能沒辦法等待那我們就協助趕快轉換"},{"start":17058.729,"end":17075.469,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":17075.469,"end":17097.09,"text":"．"},{"start":17097.13,"end":17122.706,"text":"那接下來我想請教就是說我們在這幾年當中我們年輕朋友在求職的時候大部分都是透過這個網站可能就是這個私立就業服務機構提供的這個網站那有的可能就是一些業者自己本身架設網站公司機構的網站那我想請教因為我在今年暑假的時候我就碰到"},{"start":17123.906,"end":17137.534,"text":"兩位他是這個大學剛畢業那他是透過這個公司機構自己架設的這個網站求職結果他這個根本就是一個詐騙的公司那結果這個新這個這個"},{"start":17138.855,"end":17152.441,"text":"而新鮮人,算是剛進到這個就業市場的這個新鮮人其實他完全根本也不知道老闆叫他去做的是違法的老闆請他提供他的這個帳"},{"start":17153.982,"end":17173.948,"text":"那個銀行的賬號然後請他他說請他去公園去有客戶然後要繳就是要給公司錢那個收貨款然後就去公司就就去公園去收貨款結果警察就在公司就就在公園附近埋伏結果就把這兩個抓起來了"},{"start":17176.342,"end":17200.308,"text":"所以我想請教就是說勞動部針對我們所有的年輕人他的習慣求職他就是透過這個網站就業私立的就服的這個網站或者是我們自己勞動部的這個網站或者是公司機構自己架設的網站那怎麼樣是讓這些年輕人不要因為這樣子然後受騙"},{"start":17201.328,"end":17203.351,"text":"委員我們跟警政署之間也有這樣的機制我請署長說明一下好不好"},{"start":17217.163,"end":17239.589,"text":"因為網路詐騙這個情況其實跨部會對這個問題都很重視我們現在在目前我們只有幾個措施第一個就是說在民間的能力網站我們已經建立了一個合作機制就是有一些黑名單過去我們就把它下架禁止它刊登第二個就是說民眾可能有這樣的一個物資認知上的問題我們加強宣導我們有求職方便的一些措施"},{"start":17240.369,"end":17267.587,"text":"最後就是說網路現在比較需要跨部會合作與司法警政單位的就是像剛剛委員提到的個人私人架設的或是說像那種FB這種社群媒體因為這個東西都不是在我們目前救護法規管的範圍那現在未來就是說在訴發部跟警政署現在會有一個跨部會的一個平台那我們未來會去合作就是說對於一些有疑似的案件我們就啟動跟司法警察一起來做一個擦板"},{"start":17267.967,"end":17267.987,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":17301.482,"end":17325.448,"text":"接下來請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長部長你好部長你114年度送到行政院的總預算勞動部總預算案含基金total是多少"},{"start":17326.375,"end":17347.869,"text":"兩千九百億兩千九百億那一百一十三年一一三年就今年是多少案喔我其實我講的是案不是審查過的啊你是說金額嗎對啊總預算案是多少一一四是兩千九百多億我請我的同仁來回答一下好不好那個會計處"},{"start":17353.164,"end":17354.589,"text":"有人跟你講說是增加還是減少嗎?114對照113是增加還是減少?"},{"start":17360.111,"end":17365.915,"text":"跟委員報告我們是增加了599億多增加59億113的勞動部的預算案對照114勞動部的預算案114年有比113增加59億多是不是"},{"start":17383.206,"end":17394.244,"text":"是對照那個法定預算就是113年度因為預算已經通過了嗎所以我們比較是114的預算案比較113的法定預算"},{"start":17396.092,"end":17404.397,"text":"沒有啦所以我才講說你113的預算案是多少嘛你現在跟我講是通過的嘛對不對你這樣就太拚了2794億2794億那你114是2900多億"},{"start":17414.076,"end":17441.619,"text":"一一四我們是 sorry一一四預算案我們是兩千九百二十八億對啊二九二八一一四嘛對預算案是二九二八嘛那一一三呢沒有數字嗎一一三是兩千八百二千八百六十二千八百六十億左右"},{"start":17442.996,"end":17458.594,"text":"這上會通過的嘛對不對?還是通過的?通過啦不是啦不是啦113議員選要不選就叫做議選案嘛對不對?我現在覺得因為我們一八十四年都還不選議選案嘛你一八十三年議選案是多少?兩千八百多嘛是不是?是"},{"start":17460.88,"end":17477.253,"text":"2860億啦委員抱歉因為我這邊只有法定預算113的數據就這通過的嘛你現在跟我講通過的嘛對不對113的部分是這樣子113通過是28602860對嘛那你怎麼可以好意思跟我講說119一定大過於多過於118欸113114還沒有114怎麼大過於113114就還沒有審的"},{"start":17486.36,"end":17487.501,"text":"還沒有審查,你怎麼知道會增加599億?"},{"start":17515.564,"end":17539.032,"text":"你的預編是對照113的預算嗎?是不是這樣?對不對?我一直強調我原本就是要問是113的預算案嘛就還沒有審查的嘛那我是要看新部長來是不是有對照以前的這個那個年代是不是有增加更好更加更多預算基本上是沒有嘛甚至於你還可能會比113更少不一定因為還沒有審查嘛因為有可能被刪了對啊對啊"},{"start":17540.472,"end":17546.198,"text":"你希望可以再多增加的不一樣的但是還是要火力預計的預算以前沒有編你現在來編是增加大約是多少"},{"start":17563.206,"end":17591.877,"text":"我們大概比較有那個是運營流停啦今天加急補助經費38億叫去年增加9700萬這個不是新興的啦這是增加嘛這是原有的預算去增加的嘛我是說新興的項目都沒有啦都沒有我上任以後我沒有自己去新興任何項目預算啦好反正就是沒有就對了啦沒有就比較不用擔心啦如果有你就會有自然生嘛因為現在預算還卡住嘛"},{"start":17592.657,"end":17614.575,"text":"我的意思是這樣好了謝謝委員謝謝好我們現在回過頭來看這一個事情我們來追啦部長這個報導你看一下勞動部補助違法慣患勞團欲追回款項這個很清楚齁審計部的報告勞化署就案基金在去年公告15項計畫那補助共有11205家補助88968件"},{"start":17619.079,"end":17628.205,"text":"然後共計劃出16.3億那在勞化署這15項的這個計劃裡面除了充電再出發訓練計劃外及與計劃均規範事業單位違反勞動法令這個情節重大者將不予補助那這一計劃中勞動部或勞化署對於違反勞動法令情節重大者的這個定義"},{"start":17645.996,"end":17671.884,"text":"沒有明確啦沒有明確的說明清楚但我想一般的普羅大眾都應該非常知道齁如果有臨序違反勞動法令的事業單位那基本上這個補助資格就應該要嚴審啦他會被挑戰嘛齁即便都是小錯啦但是一錯再錯一換再換這個在新法上叫累犯嘛那累犯的時候有時候是要加重期刑但我們勞動部卻加重補助"},{"start":17675.194,"end":17687.51,"text":"是在鼓勵用人民的納稅金鼓勵他們違反勞動法令所以他們怎麼犯錯沒有得到問題甚至於還加碼"},{"start":17689.875,"end":17702.128,"text":"我要跟你們對照明細喔如果有這樣的事情部長你要怎麼處理這是第一件事情那第二件事情在審計部的資料就按基金補助的事業單位中有112家已經領了將近4千萬但112家卻是從109年到111年連續3年都有違反勞動法令的紀錄"},{"start":17712.486,"end":17720.007,"text":"好再來同年在111年齁一年內違反勞動法令三次的以上事業單位就有200家就有200家那其中5家啦齁達10次以上他們仍然還可以領到將近4898將近5000萬這些累換的事業單位將近8成在112年還在持續的違反勞動法令"},{"start":17742.768,"end":17771.115,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛所以我剛剛才會講那句話說我們是拿人民大稅錢在鼓勵他們就持續做這些違反勞動法令的事情這跟我獨立現在檢討這件事要檢討這些事情是這樣嘛齁部長勞動部列出這些計畫這15項其中很多是針對中高齡再就業計畫這個我們都非常支持的啊對不對齁然後因為我們要邁入到超高齡嘛這總統一直在講嘛勞動部鼓勵壯士在再度投入職場"},{"start":17772.535,"end":17786.681,"text":"那我想在這場上的這個環境我們要嚴格把關不是因為在這山有這種違反勞動法規的事業單位他們這樣叫做壯世代嗎?他們適合壯世代嗎?然後報導中老化署這樣回覆喔"},{"start":17788.265,"end":17804.539,"text":"勞動法令多,處罰類型不一,各分署審查時,會注意違反勞動法令情況至於是否要定一定期限內違反次數或金額高於多少以上就不予補助,容待後續討論這樣覺得對嗎?"},{"start":17813.195,"end":17829.084,"text":"我們來檢討一個月內好不好對啦不然就像我講的嘛對不對我們就變相在鼓勵啊然後再來我不需要邀請部長啦違反的情節規定啦以及鼓勵的改善措施啦通通一個月內啦請部長馬上裁示吧"},{"start":17829.764,"end":17831.026,"text":"部長可以看這近5年來的重大職災死亡"},{"start":17845.662,"end":17865.349,"text":"108到112平均差不多300人走位那營建數各位部長也可以再看一下108就168109145101371115612151差不多照著重大持災營建業已經就占了一半了部長再往下看"},{"start":17867.229,"end":17887.017,"text":"然後其中墜落滾落的占了47%那其他的大致上就是5677712其他12倒塌崩塌也占了9結果墜落滾落倒塌崩塌就占了半數以上了啦占了半數以上然後再往下一張"},{"start":17888.337,"end":17905.1,"text":"就108年到112年最弱掉落的就是佔了將近佔比差不多50%了就48 49嘛所以從沒50%就一半了如果剛剛那個另外的那個加起來已經超過一半了這個這個這個如果部長"},{"start":17906.221,"end":17927.116,"text":"你可以有自愧的然後有魄力的去處理我們把這樣的一個會發生的因素把它降下來我們或許明年我們就可以很大聲講說勞工職災重大死亡我們可以把它壓到200人以下"},{"start":17929.591,"end":17944.405,"text":"就這個部分 我們積極的看怎麼樣去預防 怎麼去處理真的是有機會的啊 你看他可以站一半嘛 對不對 300個他就站一半 什麼藥 人間藥 人間藥 什麼錢 什麼錢 土地希望就放下去嘛 寫下去嘛 把這個放下去寫下去 我們讓這麼多勞工 因為這樣在他的職場裡面喪失生命"},{"start":17957.168,"end":17981.983,"text":"沒有道理啊!沒有道理嘛!對不對?當然!這屆民間業還算好的嘛對不對?怎麼沒辦法來做在整個職場上的一個更積極的一個管理讓這樣的憾事不要發生我相信這些營建業他也不希望發生這種事情嘛但是他就是讓這樣的事情持續發生然後讓這樣的比例就是這麼高"},{"start":17985.325,"end":18003.708,"text":"那就很奇怪了啊我還要另外再講一句話那我們政府何嘗不是一樣怎麼讓這個數據維持這5年就是平均墜落掉落就是在50%我們政府怎麼讓營建業在死亡人數300人他們的占比就是占了一半以上"},{"start":18005.274,"end":18030.707,"text":"我讓署長答問您一下好嗎我們就是發現這個問題所以我們今年為什麼說要墜落打擊那墜落打擊我們希望在執行過程中事業單位都要負起它管理的責任那因為管理責任我們看來目前是有點落差所以我們也希望要修治安法把這個管理責任更落實現場的隨時的監察視察巡查把墜落風險控制完降落就會降低了"},{"start":18031.747,"end":18058.539,"text":"委員這是全產業的我們營商業的最弱死亡比例是高達六成我們是非常痛心這個事情所以我們今年最後打幾年雖然剛才委員隨便詢說是沒有辦法降到我們降百分之三十的標準但是我們會持續努力包括法規的制度跟營建署的合作就是國土署的合作如何把這個更有效做營建管理我想這是我們的關鍵了謝謝委員今天是給我們的那個督促因為剛剛我有聽到委員跟你吹詢嘛"},{"start":18059.079,"end":18079.349,"text":"但是我覺得你那個墜落打擊就是破功了嘛 對不對坦白講就這樣嘛但是部長你不能破功嘛啊我剛才跟你講說你看營建類你跟我講到六成喔 對不對啊我相信營建類也不希望會發生這種事情嘛對啊啊不會發生這種事情啊為什麼持續讓它發生嘛然後比例又這麼高嘛"},{"start":18080.269,"end":18093.72,"text":"從人性的角度我們知道它不相發生它就直接又發生所以政府怎麼可以讓它也一樣跟這些業者一樣的處理方式那都不對啊 對不對所以我是覺得這邊阿基來坦白講我不覺得很大的困難耶"},{"start":18099.633,"end":18101.315,"text":"但是如果你連續5年都當這樣的數據維持這樣那是真的這是很嚴重的問題了"},{"start":18112.345,"end":18112.365,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":18130.483,"end":18153.115,"text":"老建這這營建工地的這樣子檢查我想我們還有要努力的空間對我想從什麼加嚴相關標準還是提高法管的額度還是強化承攬管理責任什麼新增這個暈頭管理的華澤大大大這個大家都會講了但是到底到底你們去執行落實的情況是怎麼樣不然怎麼還有這麼多的生命因為這樣不見了"},{"start":18155.436,"end":18155.997,"text":"我們預備校會期送進立院"},{"start":18168.587,"end":18189.61,"text":"我還是請部長可以趕一下啦齁然後這個要我覺得這一塊如果趕快可以補起來我們就有效控制在就壓低到200以下只要這一塊處理好我們來加快速度然後對於現在現金要去防範如何改善勞工在職場上墜落了掉落的"},{"start":18190.331,"end":18213.767,"text":"是不是有一個報告可以給我們做參考好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員發言那今天的會議詢答全部結束委員麥玉珍、邱洛華所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆"},{"start":18216.949,"end":18223.485,"text":"委員令要求期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午9點繼續開會謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","委員發言時間":"08:30:32 - 13:35:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}