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劉啟孝副司長 能源署的署長 劉正偉署長 台灣電力公司的董事長 曾文森董事長 總經理王耀廷總經理好 那我們現在就先請經濟部郭智輝部長進行報告"},{"start":1860.526,"end":1886.207,"text":"主席．各位委員先進．今日應貴院邀請．就我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃．這個命題進行專案報告．敬請各位委員先進．不吝示教．能源政策以穩定供電為前提．並跟隨世界發展綠能的潮流．"},{"start":1887.657,"end":1907.004,"text":"我國能源轉型政策以再生能源為主軸主要產業出國的時候再生能源也已成為生產的要素同時搭配低碳天然氣發電並推動地熱、氫能等新能源的利用穩定供電、多元綠能、減煤減碳"},{"start":1916.693,"end":1926.44,"text":"是國際趨勢一致現階段已依政策目標定期檢討推動成果以及加強做法"},{"start":1928.496,"end":1935.862,"text":"能源配比的現況2023年能源發電佔比為燃煤42.2%燃氣39.5%核能6.3%再生能源9.5%其中含光電4.6%風力2.2%其他再生能源2.7%"},{"start":1953.055,"end":1961.618,"text":"2024年1到8月發電佔為燃煤40%燃氣41.5%核能5.4%再生能源10.5%其中光電5.2%風力2.6%其他再生能源為2.7%"},{"start":1973.956,"end":1990.945,"text":"未來能源配比將於2030年達到燃氣五成再生能源三成燃煤二成的目標能源配比跟當年度的用電量也就是分母有關每年都會變動"},{"start":1992.597,"end":2019.628,"text":"政府會定期檢討電力供需狀況並規劃整體電源開發持續於2030年綠電達到3成燃煤從現在的4成減少到2成燃氣維持5成為目標來努力再生能源推動的進度過去幾年世界各國受到疫情以及戰爭的影響"},{"start":2021.878,"end":2046.682,"text":"導致缺工缺料以及通膨的現象．亦造成台灣綠電推動進度未如預期政府將誠懇面對問題並有效有效率的解決這個困難那麼接著為各位報告這個幾種發電的方式第一太陽光電截至2024年8月已經設置"},{"start":2050.451,"end":2050.612,"text":"13.627GW"},{"start":2053.479,"end":2082.41,"text":"屋頂型光電已提前達標並將持續優先推動可置於農業、工業、工友以及民間屋頂並透過增訂再生能源發展條例12-1條規定一定規模新建物應設置光電地面型光電應開發時較易涉及環境生態社會溝通、土地使用"},{"start":2083.894,"end":2107.994,"text":"行政程序以及地方政府態度等多項議題都需要突破政府已優先推動餘電共生研議適當回饋機制申請流程公開透明來提升設置的進度將目標調整為2026年太陽光電可以完成20GW"},{"start":2110.669,"end":2129.673,"text":"離岸風電目前已完成安置372座風機其中以併網容量達到2.94GW目前為全球排名第7位成為全球少數離岸風電突破2GW的國家後續2.66GW的風機設置量經濟部均掌握各風場的失控狀態"},{"start":2138.424,"end":2152.873,"text":"預計於2026年底陸續完成此外2026年後區塊開發已完成第一期第二期的選商目標2028年裝置容量累積可以達到7.9個地熱"},{"start":2157.625,"end":2174.552,"text":"本部地礦中心就具有專警資料以科學模型推估1至3公里深至淺層地熱潛能運量只有1.7GW但3至6公里深的深層地熱運量運償量約為40GW"},{"start":2177.913,"end":2188.336,"text":"臺電以及中油公司現在正透過開磚申請實際驗證地熱運產量截至2024年8月以宜蘭清水、臺東金輪等地累積設置達6個淺層地熱案場後續持續於全臺包括大屯山、花蓮瑞穗等10大地熱淺能區進行探勘"},{"start":2206.687,"end":2226.336,"text":"探明地熱淺能加速淺層地熱開發此外更要積極佈局深層地熱開發中國公司10月14號將會於宜蘭園山開始專探我國第一口4000公尺地熱申請未來將引進國際深層地熱技術進行技術驗證以及建置示範案場"},{"start":2235.325,"end":2248.159,"text":"水利發電,截至2024年8月,水利發電已於德基水庫、翡翠水庫等大型水庫設置發電設備。近兩年,水利發電量平均均為48億度,約佔全國發電量的1.7%。"},{"start":2252.924,"end":2265.017,"text":"因今年考慮環境衝擊已不再推動大型水庫後續將優先推動對環境影響比較低的小水利發電23個案場也將與農業部盤點小水利潛力"},{"start":2269.582,"end":2287.45,"text":"透過小水利發電設備設置的指引．引導業者透過環境低衡衝擊的模式進行暗場開發．同時透過公民電廠方式鼓勵社區民眾參與設置．發展在地資源建立社區綠經濟模式"},{"start":2290.929,"end":2309.01,"text":"經濟部的能源政策是依照現行法規依法行政並將持續關注新能源科技對於核電的使用必須符合法規且審慎考量核安、核廢料的處理以及社會共識等問題"},{"start":2310.276,"end":2331.619,"text":"政府對核能政策是開放的．經濟部會關注國家發展情勢．定期滾動檢討．能源轉型推動成果．以及加強做法。．台電公司也會持續關注未來各項科技的發展．包括新核能技術在內．不會預設任何的立場．"},{"start":2332.955,"end":2359.265,"text":"非核不是神主牌依法行政經濟部尊重各界對核能的討論但必須要合法現行核子反應器設施管制法等相關法規中明確規範核電廠的使用年限經濟部作為行政機關會依法行政現在生下核三廠二號機預計運轉到明年2025年的5月"},{"start":2363.7,"end":2389.36,"text":"我們也需要滿足核安、核廢料以及社會共識台灣地狹人稠且地處地震帶上若要繼續使用核能發電需審慎考量核安以及核廢料的處理問題並且確認台灣民眾對核能發電議題有無共識相信各位委員也能夠認同"},{"start":2390.839,"end":2412.836,"text":"政府已經有完善電源開發規範未來電源開發規劃除再生能源且為因應再生能源大量設置及再生能源所產生的間歇性政府與規劃建置快速啟停的新型燃機基礎作為橋接的能源"},{"start":2414.045,"end":2441.882,"text":"到2033年大型機組累計僅增加1786萬千瓦包括台電以及民營等新增燃氣機組此外政府亦積極推動儲能電池以及抽蓄水利等儲能設施以快速反應的速度加上發電量能的這個域度維持供電的穩定"},{"start":2444.534,"end":2447.849,"text":"我國能源轉型政策與再生能源為主軸"},{"start":2449.266,"end":2476.202,"text":"且推動增氣減煤的策略．努力降低燃煤機組的發電佔比．同時推動地熱等新能源利用．以達到2030年再生能源發電佔比．30%的淨零轉型階段性目標．並有足夠的綠電．滿足我國產業出口的需求以上報告 敬請指教．並祝各位身體健康 萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2483.055,"end":2501.007,"text":"補充介紹到場的委員 林黛華委員我們先來處理上次議事錄有無錯誤請問兩位委員好 無錯誤我們議事錄就確定那現在請我們臺電公司的曾文森董事長進行報告"},{"start":2505.53,"end":2520.442,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早安那今天應貴院的邀請來臺電就能源的政策執行的情形進行專案報告那以下依據以下幾點請各位委員先進不吝指教"},{"start":2521.062,"end":2541.451,"text":"首先第一個是有關於台電系統的整個發電結構占比就是台電系統的發電結構占比跟整個全國系統來講大概是蠻相近的不過有一些部分的不同就是台電本身的燃煤的發電占比現在已經降到34%那燃氣是提升到44%"},{"start":2543.012,"end":2566.149,"text":"那核能跟再生能源的占比大概都相同跟全國統計約一致那核能是7%這是2030的統計那再生能源是9.9%那最主要的工作是臺電其實是一個主要的電力的輸送的公司也是發電的公司那我們在強化電網韌性部分的工作我們在輸電的部分在2022年提了一個電網強硬計畫"},{"start":2568.911,"end":2589.851,"text":"包含分散強固跟智慧化方向來進行這是我們熟悉的電網強韌計畫那除了這個以外今年度以來部長也指示臺電公司必須針對就是比較是屬於民生部分的配電的高敏感區以及設備老化的問題要進行配電系統的穩定供電的專案"},{"start":2591.653,"end":2598.343,"text":"要加速匱限跟設備汰換等等的預防措施增加民生變電站來因應我們民生用電的成長那這些相關的計畫原定我們10年的電網強生計畫我們會將跟民生比較相關的項目"},{"start":2607.476,"end":2625.818,"text":"先提出來優先完成關鍵區跟民生相關的工程在2028年來完成那對於未來電力的需求的部分那台電公司其實是有針對我們每年定期檢討電力供需的情形那包括我們"},{"start":2626.639,"end":2639.706,"text":"仔細的去估列幾個可能重要發展的用電產業例如半導體產業跟AI等等的用電來進行估計我們規劃了大型的機組會增加1860萬千瓦那也會加速的來擴大再生能源的電網工程滿足未來的用電負擔"},{"start":2648.271,"end":2663.768,"text":"那在整個大型火力的執行狀況來講我們這幾年快速的汰換了一些燃煤機組也做了燃煤機組的空污管制所以台電的固定污染源排放在過去這幾年已經降低了65%就超過2%的那個排放量的減少"},{"start":2668.252,"end":2683.412,"text":"就大的方向來講我們要因應全球的近年排放趨勢供應鏈減碳的壓力政府已經訂定了先低碳後零碳的整個策略架構我們會在2030前增加快速我們會快速佈建低碳"},{"start":2683.912,"end":2711.957,"text":"的燃氣發電取代高碳的燃煤跟燃油發電那同時我們現在是同時在推動大潭新達臺中大林通宵二期協和跟臺中二期這一些燃氣計畫那同時也開放民間來參與能源的投資採購民營的電力那這樣子的狀況之下扣除我們將大型一年線廚藝的機組仍然是可以滿足用電的需求"},{"start":2712.897,"end":2735.98,"text":"就再生能源的部分,臺電公司最主要的工作項目其實是提供電網讓更多的民間業者可以參與再生能源因為再生能源本身就是一個分散式的電源在全世界都是由各個不同的不管是大型、中型、小型的民間力量來做投資來加速它再生能源的發展"},{"start":2736.74,"end":2756.974,"text":"臺電最主要的工作就是能夠友善綠電的並往環境除此之外臺電自己本身也進行再生能源的開發那在自主開發上面大概有三個面向就是光電風電那風電分陸運跟離岸風電那同時還有地熱那開發的形式上面除了我們自己開發以外"},{"start":2758.135,"end":2769.346,"text":"我們也會進行合作開發就包含跟民間的再生能源業者共同來合作開發除了這個以外我們也針對一個比較前瞻型的再生能源型態會進行一些示範應用的努力"},{"start":2774.071,"end":2785.681,"text":"那到目前為止,就是整個我們再生能源的台電自己直接的投資那個光電大概是291M、陸域風電有439M、然後離岸風電、釋放岸產和離產岸產總共有400M等等這些成績我們會繼續努力的擴大再生能源的掌握"},{"start":2797.211,"end":2821.607,"text":"除了這個以外在再生能源的強化電力網的成果的部分其實臺電公司有推動46項的再生能源加強電力網的工程工作那現在已經完成25項那增加了4.6G的電網容量那其餘21項工程預計會在2027年底全數完成那在這個剩下的21項工程裡面有關於我們漁電工程等等的相關計畫都會在2024、2025陸陸續續完成那除了這個以外"},{"start":2827.371,"end":2845.668,"text":"我們接下來還有包含離岸風力的發電的加強電力網計畫也會在2026年到2031年增加併網的容量達到10GW那除了這些再生能源的開發以外其實最重要的是台灣的整個再生能源的發展"},{"start":2846.414,"end":2868.723,"text":"以及民間運用的狀況事實上已經開始出現一個新的趨勢而這個趨勢是非常重要的就是我們再生能源的等購費率事實上一直都維持著一個水準甚至是逐步下降那在2030年以前國內的產業對再生能源的需求已經明確的提升那從台電的統計數據來看有一個比較清楚的數據我們事實上台電的電網"},{"start":2874.625,"end":2887.608,"text":"的再生能源轉工是在2020年的5月開始有比較明顯的數字那到2023年就去年底我們再生能源的轉工數量已經達到17億度那我們預計今年會達到35億度也就是說2024年的轉工再生能源的量的成長會達到100%以上所以我們看到這種轉工的量"},{"start":2904.653,"end":2908.276,"text":"臺電在這些轉工等等相關的一些配合性的工作也會持續來進行"},{"start":2934.016,"end":2954.494,"text":"那大家國人或是立法院都非常關心有關於台電公司針對核能發電執行的現況與規劃那我在這邊要跟各位報告因為台電公司是個事業單位我們就是依照現在的相關法令來進行那目前運轉中的核能機組有核三的二號機那它的運轉年限是到2025年的5月17號"},{"start":2956.576,"end":2982.498,"text":"那除了這個以外,其實台電現在正在加速推動就是用過核燃料的中期乾式儲存等等的計畫那這個部分包括核一跟核二的乾儲,我們都已經開始在加速推動也希望儘快能夠將堆在爐心裡面的用過的核燃料能夠取出啟動和後端的相關工作"},{"start":2983.238,"end":3011.116,"text":"除此之外我們最後要跟各位委員報告就是政府的能源政策是以穩定供電為優先那要兼顧減少排碳跟降低空污排放等等的目標那我們配合整個政府的政策我們是採取先低碳後零碳的策略來規劃那2030前我們會持續推動低碳燃氣發電的計畫那也會優先設置成熟的再生能源投入儲能系統建置同時"},{"start":3012.557,"end":3027.672,"text":"也會提前布局投入前瞻技術的研發跟示範計畫那2030到2050年會擴大我們的再生能源的繼續擴大設置那同時會導入商業化的零碳多元綠能的電源技術"},{"start":3028.593,"end":3043.383,"text":"那也會積極推動電能調頻跟負載的轉移的複合式儲能運用不管是抽取水利或是電池都將會是這整個電網能夠發揮功能的一部分那我們會持續關注各種能源技術的發展"},{"start":3044.644,"end":3061.197,"text":"維持供電穩定達成進行轉型的目標那穩定供電是台電公司責無旁貸的使命但是要有充足而且品質優良的電力供應需要足夠的電力建設從發電廠、變電所、從輸電到配電的線路等等這些電力設備都必須實體存在"},{"start":3068.479,"end":3092.839,"text":"而這些實體存在的電力建設才有辦法提供台灣穩定且品質高的電力供應而這些電力建設事實上常常因為它是零幣設施沒有辦法得到大家的支持我們希望台灣如果要有穩定的電力供應也希望國民大眾能夠支持台電進行電力建設的推動"},{"start":3094.336,"end":3112.341,"text":"讓我們有電廠能夠發電有電網能夠送電達成穩定供電的使命以上報告進行質詢謝謝好那現在進行詢答在委員詢答前本席先做一些宣告"},{"start":3114.977,"end":3115.277,"text":"有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":3142.943,"end":3144.724,"text":"報告委員 這個命題是我們沒有確定的一個命題"},{"start":3167.185,"end":3191.454,"text":"所以這是郭部長的命題還是經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題報告委員這個是我在這個師百名夫的這個他的論壇上面我們大概有很多的這個學者專家那麼他們討論出來因為這個綠能的部分所以這是郭部長跟學者專家的命題還不是經濟部的命題是"},{"start":3196.136,"end":3212.865,"text":"那這個我要讓部長瞭解一下這樣的議題的嚴重性但是可以考評估啦不過呢光是本席也不成熟的瞭解一些背景台澎海纜在18年前規劃2005年我們的海纜長度是58.8公里陸纜是9.1這樣的預算157.3億"},{"start":3221.87,"end":3229.801,"text":"耗時13年,那菲律賓到台灣300公里,距比海澎、海瀾,我只講海瀾,就要多5倍那這興建到底還要多久?那這個發會沒有千億以上"},{"start":3237.992,"end":3250.139,"text":"是不可能的所以我讓郭部長知道這樣的背景好那接下來本期再議的就是今天的主題我們石化工業新世青真的要南遷呂宋島嗎部長"},{"start":3253.28,"end":3267.165,"text":"請回應報告委員這些都是一些假設的討論假設那我一樣要問是國部長您的命題經濟部的命題還是行政院的命題現在這個還是停留在討論的階段"},{"start":3268.725,"end":3269.246,"text":"是在經濟部內部討論嗎?"},{"start":3286.918,"end":3313.083,"text":"我們要讓石化業是具有競爭力的產業而且不是只有看台灣這個市場所以今天如果有能力幫助這些石化業具有充分的競爭力我們必須要讓他的這個各方面的這個材料成本還有這個建廠製造的成本能夠降低部長您針對您這樣的說法是要把新市區整個移到"},{"start":3313.843,"end":3337.649,"text":"改投資建設聽好喔是改投資並建設於呂宋島改投資建設的意思我心思心思確定1068億整個移到呂宋島建設什麼叫改建設就是整個連根拔起所有石化業都全部移到呂宋島嗎所以這是改投資建設呂宋島嗎這是你們的這樣的一個規劃嗎討論嗎"},{"start":3343.63,"end":3368.869,"text":"報告委員我想以前的這個決定我不是那麼清楚那我接了這個新世青的這個案子以後我們要考慮了這樣的一個投資成本下去他有沒有辦法快速的回收那我可能背景你不清楚我就講給你聽中油世青他不像台塑是僅供應我集團內的石化裂解"},{"start":3369.349,"end":3382.572,"text":"事件是肩負了國內石化業中下游產業所有原物料的工廠近40年他扛起了國內石化業的基礎不可諱言他的設備確實是老了所以新事件的規劃自拍板定案部長大年預算從因為拖延從823億延至1062億"},{"start":3389.794,"end":3412.518,"text":"這就是背景好在第二個背景呢在今年5月13號新內閣接手前的一週本期不斷的催促行政院終於合併的低碳減排環保智慧化這個智慧化是要減少公安事件的新事情這就是所謂的新事情低碳減排環保智慧化的管理減少公安"},{"start":3413.619,"end":3419.647,"text":"本席還用送高雄一份大禮向陳建仁院長來做感謝所以部長您這邊講的是要讓我們新世親請你再講清楚因為我們現在全高雄市所有石化業都在聽這一場"},{"start":3430.603,"end":3444.961,"text":"這個實在是太震撼了我只能用震撼兩個字您要是否把這個新世紀所謂的有競爭力是改投資建設整個一道呂宋島嗎"},{"start":3446.961,"end":3463.556,"text":"報告委員是不是移到哪一個地方我想這個都是在所以你確定要移新世青要不要建新世青要不要建新世青要不要建這個我想這個必須是整個的確定那已經確定了他當然就是要建"},{"start":3464.377,"end":3464.777,"text":"我必須要再檢討"},{"start":3482.908,"end":3485.869,"text":"部長 這個投資在哪裡來 全部都在國內本席啪數給你看石化工業雖然狹義 我就救石化工業他的狹義占不到2%的國民生產毛利 沒有錯但是他的覆蓋力是百工百業傳統產業來講 他覆蓋哪裡 請看下表"},{"start":3501.656,"end":3530.464,"text":"有塑膠製品、清潔用品、顏染料、塑化劑、化妝品、橡膠製品、人造纖維、七合劑我們每天家裡的裝潢都要七合劑、溶藥都要石化液這都傳統產業好 半導體的原物料6成就是裡面的材料6成來自石化液你電子當中的特用氣體、光眼膜等這有6成半導體的6成 所以說假設你今天是"},{"start":3531.484,"end":3554.191,"text":"認為他沒有競爭力2%不算高然後呢整個要外移那不好意思我的傳統產業半導體全部的石化原料全部都進口這個通膨啊這可是無法無法這是天價好再來我要讓您再了解一下我們的就業人口全台灣"},{"start":3556.131,"end":3580.027,"text":"實化業中上下游的牽動的就業人口有幾萬我高雄市的就業人口的實化業的就業人口有多少10萬嘛是不是10萬部長來我就以報派就好這個台灣實化產業中下游這是2021年4月14號的報紙報的牽動就業人口全台灣45萬"},{"start":3581.528,"end":3608.259,"text":"在高雄我就以氣爆案當中當時有一個報導說我如果關閉所有的管線我直接影響就只有直接影響我石化業高雄就有2.6萬在但是有估計向後連鎖反應會有大概兩倍所以我的就業人口在高雄就會5萬這種是狹隘的石化產業我不講我靠石化產業周邊的所有的外包工程"},{"start":3609.579,"end":3630.787,"text":"好部長這個可嚴肅了那你的石化產業再來講喔如果你認為整個石化產業新世青他要放在哪裡你要演繹新世青確定要做但要演繹我看不出你在國內有哪一個地點要讓你做當時我們也因應石化的我們中油的這個石化產業的高石化來看一下經濟部啊在我們高雄"},{"start":3635.188,"end":3646.372,"text":"因為要高質化所以呢新材料循環產業援軍升級的設置計畫他是呢跟我大林埔千村安置計畫書這件事情是不是要停板因為沒有高質化啦沒有什麼高質化因為你的新世親既然要延宕現在拍板定案而且部長這個是行政院拍板定案的案子"},{"start":3657.717,"end":3676.738,"text":"您說要放到哪裡這要研議這是您部長的意思經濟部的意思還是行政院的意思呢報告委員我想這個是這樣子就是說這麼大的一個投資案我必須要有這個責任讓這個投資案下去是能夠賺錢的"},{"start":3678.34,"end":3683.522,"text":"如果這個投資案評估上來是沒有辦法賺錢的誰說不能賺錢啊部長剛才我已經爬輸了整個那也就是說光是你要讓石化業那認為不賺錢所以我所有百工百業半導體業的石化原料我的這個所有傳統產業的全部都在進口嗎報告委員那個是中下游我們現在談的這個是上游"},{"start":3703.147,"end":3730.137,"text":"報告部長我們所有石化業全部都是內銷我們只有那個柴油少小的柴油外銷那個量太少全部都內銷部長很明顯你對石化產業完全完全是狀況外的我跟委員報告你現在這個石化產業面臨的是中國有七大石化產業你講到中國你有沒有掌握到2030年中國要收掉幾個石化廠"},{"start":3731.64,"end":3732.941,"text":"現在請邱毅英委員質詢"},{"start":3764.363,"end":3768.935,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝主席我是不是請一下郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":3780.52,"end":3793.166,"text":"委員早部長早部長我想這個還是幾個時事題這當然跟我們台灣的整體的能源配置是有相關這個總統在國慶晚會拋出的這個祖國論其實引起了非常廣泛的討論那在國慶隔天"},{"start":3803.523,"end":3811.271,"text":"中國就開始一連串的大動作他們在10月14號開始有一個所謂的聯合力艦2024B的軍演範圍那這個軍演當然也"},{"start":3818.677,"end":3833.031,"text":"創下了中國的軍機繞台90架次這樣的一個最高紀錄實在我覺得中國來慶祝中華民國的國慶也是用另外一個方式來幫助我們不過與此同時"},{"start":3835.014,"end":3856.328,"text":"假訊息的散播其實也相當的快速你看到這個在PTT的網站上面一直不斷的講台灣的LNG船呢這個掉頭就走台灣的LNG船沒有辦法停泊入港所以台灣很快會發生缺天然氣的危機部長你們要不要趁這個時候啊再一次"},{"start":3859.149,"end":3885.75,"text":"來跟台灣的國人做最嚴正的聲明到底這件事情是怎麼一回事報告委員我想這個訊息就是如同您指教的這個是虛假的訊息我們當天早上的這一個船進來主要因為他提早到了他提早到了我那個船塢是沒有辦法讓他進港的所以他才繞出去的這個跟所謂的這個中共來圍台"},{"start":3888.692,"end":3915.205,"text":"我講是沒有正相關的其實中國一直不斷的透過各種的形式創造各式各樣的假議題一直講說台灣會有缺天然氣的危機因為環台演習所以LNG船就掉頭就走我覺得像這一些即時的假訊息阻止甚至我今天早上看到新聞調查局已經完全掌握了"},{"start":3915.725,"end":3916.365,"text":"所以現在我們的天然氣儲存量是足夠的嗎?足夠的"},{"start":3941.22,"end":3954.002,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3955.718,"end":3980.11,"text":"這個印太戰略智庫成立酒會那聽說您在裡頭談到了這個印太的合作包括美國日本菲律賓等等這些國家的這些戰略合作上面你有提到規劃要在菲律賓設電廠有這件事情嗎部長能不能請您說明一下報告委員因為在這個成立大會的時候啊"},{"start":3980.55,"end":3995.537,"text":"那麼之前的這個日本駐台大使還有美國駐台大使都有在講就是說大家都是區域聯盟那麼對這個所有的這個命題都應該彼此去關心那麼我們在這個民主同盟的時候我們討論到這個能源的這個問題"},{"start":3997.898,"end":4016.396,"text":"民主同盟的時候討論能源的問題那比如說你們討論了哪一些這些的能源的議題有沒有包括這些電廠的設置啦或者是綠電、氫能各式各樣的碳封存各式各樣的這些能源議題相互的合作當場是沒有"},{"start":4016.596,"end":4039.455,"text":"但是在之前的時候我們大家都彼此有交換過這個學者專家都有在討論那身為這個這個區域聯盟的一份子但是彼此對互相的這個綠能因為綠能是2050年淨零減碳最重要的一個命題所以我們在探討說綠能啊大家如果做的話可以互相支援這樣"},{"start":4040.715,"end":4041.415,"text":"台電持反對的立場"},{"start":4066.809,"end":4083.352,"text":"你們對於這個所謂的區域聯盟討論能源議題上面這個看法是什麼那個跟委員報告那個減碳是全球性的事情而且現在都有非常多新的電力技術在發展都在倡議要全球合作"},{"start":4084.173,"end":4109.832,"text":"所以其實台電公司對於所有新的技術發展其實都有在研究那這種海底電纜的技術其實剛才也提到現在交流電的技術已經交流電的海底電纜其實已經都在運用像我們離岸風電就是海底電纜那這個比較長程的是要用直流電的電纜就是高壓直流電纜其實我們有在研究當中那它如果普及應用成本下降其實它也是一個未來我們會採取的電網建設的方式"},{"start":4113.334,"end":4129.589,"text":"未來會有台電來做嗎我國際合作就不一定是有台電來做因為台電是國營公司啊國際合作需要更多的彈性我想這個要請可能可能不見得台電來幫忙瞭解這個是沒有問題的但是是一個怎麼樣的合作架構我想這個還不確定"},{"start":4131.397,"end":4147.457,"text":"那我可不可以簡單白話的再問一次齁這件事情上面應該還是在主要還是在研議的階段或者是說大家還在意見交流的階段嗎是不是這樣部長現在是確實是在意見交流的階段"},{"start":4148.183,"end":4176.2,"text":"好 如果是這樣的話我覺得很多的話其實不用講得太前面啦部長還在意見交流的階段其實你也不用講得太具體因為這個很可能是您個人的想法不代表政府的立場也不代表你們現在的規劃建制是已經到了一個成熟的階段所以我覺得民主同盟的這一些包括能源問題的交流是好事但是有一些話其實是不用講得太前面啦"},{"start":4177.38,"end":4201.908,"text":"謝謝委員執教來那個部長您先休息一下我要接下來請教台電這個我還是要在對於台電公司表達感謝這一次山陀而颱風來對於高雄沿海地區所造成的這個損害台電的同仁不眠不休大概三天不眠不休我知道董事長您也在那裡住了三天全程的在那裡盯場不過"},{"start":4204.329,"end":4219.069,"text":"台電現在我知道你們要推這個所謂的防災型微電網推動計畫對不對過去你們好像在阿里山已經有推動成功嘛在台東是不是沒有沒有完成因為聽說地方政府"},{"start":4220.151,"end":4222.092,"text":"臺電公司能夠把這個所謂的防災行為電網推動計畫直接深入到高雄的山區"},{"start":4241.742,"end":4262.353,"text":"跟委員報告我們各個縣市都有做評估因為上次的颱風開明的時候山區很嚴重這一次山坨是平地很嚴重海邊很嚴重但是每一次只要有風災來山區都很嚴重山區那個要救援要花很多時間所以我們真的覺得微電網是一個好的方法"},{"start":4262.873,"end":4277.97,"text":"那主要是做在就是他的收容中心那讓他能夠有電那這一個部分只要地方政府能夠選定地點然後我們來跟台電商議那我們一起來找裁員來把這些微電網能夠做起來那我想說這是一個台電會去積極推動的一個項目"},{"start":4279.952,"end":4300.526,"text":"董事長我應該是要責成你們台電內部應該其實要有主要的專責計畫去做這件事情不能說你現在告訴我說你還要再去找裁員我覺得你所謂的強韌電網的計畫包括你的防災行為電網這個都應該要包含在裡面對於山區容易受到風災影響來產生停電斷電的這樣的一個危險"},{"start":4304.048,"end":4304.548,"text":"好 我們會加速來推動"},{"start":4339.946,"end":4341.247,"text":"請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請部長請郭部長郭部長早安委員早安部長你知道今天這個聯合報跟中國時報您是最佳男主角"},{"start":4366.604,"end":4392.919,"text":"就是頭板頭你應該是這個所有部會首長裡面上頭板頭最多的我想要請問一下說要從這個菲律賓購買綠電回台部長說你的想法是來自於新加坡要向澳洲購買綠電的案例但部長請問您知道說新加坡政府其實尚未同意而且不僅是新加坡還沒有批准"},{"start":4393.599,"end":4421.021,"text":"澳洲那邊也都還沒有動工目前僅止於紙上作業您覺得這樣稱得上是案例嗎報告委員這個是我在這個師範明夫的這個印太的這個智庫上面在智庫上面因為之前有這個日本的大使有美國的大使然後他們在討論這個印太區域民主同盟大家互相的這個幫忙"},{"start":4422.142,"end":4439.216,"text":"那我們在過去大概在討論的時候就是會討論到這個能源的互相彼此照顧的問題所以這個綠電的部分我們認為就是參考這個新加坡這個例子提出來一個所以您覺得它已經是一個案例了一個論述啦我認為這是一個論述啦因為這個東西要形成是必須要"},{"start":4443.399,"end":4454.222,"text":"您這個念頭是即興語言喔不是一個可成熟的方案可以實施的方案只是您純粹即興的語言嗎報告委員我講這個是在討論的一個議題可以討論的一個議題"},{"start":4459.364,"end":4485.749,"text":"也就是說我們居民主同盟的一份子那麼我們來幫助或者是尋求但是您是全國經濟的總舵手你不能夠沒有盤點就信口開河你不能把全民當傻瓜如果有盤點過的話部長可以請您揭示一下說大概建制預計要花多少錢那有沒有盤點過說限損率會有多少呢"},{"start":4487.428,"end":4501.514,"text":"對剛才委員執教的這個我輕易發言我對你抱歉那我不應該這輕易的就是還沒有形成這個個案的部分就先跟大家分享這樣的一個想法"},{"start":4502.639,"end":4509.143,"text":"那對這一點我比較沒有經驗所以我對我的這個發言我感到抱歉不過這樣的一個議題我個人認為是可以討論的我是可以討論的即使我是部長我也認為關心國內的這個綠能具有競爭力讓國內的廠商在做出口的時候他可以有充分的綠能而且2050年所以本席不反對 完全不反對"},{"start":4529.436,"end":4547.111,"text":"但是我也覺得說間接您是不是承認說台灣缺電沒有台灣的電絕對沒有缺電這個我再重新再跟委員報告是不是可以告訴我們台灣電力的真相呢不是我現在是這樣子我跟委員報告就是說我們現在努力的目標"},{"start":4548.012,"end":4551.654,"text":"就是說讓所有的業者所有的利用台灣的電的業者用電無率用電無率但是你說您為了2030年的這個目標我就覺得很懷疑啊你為什麼要捨禁求遠呢上次本席問你說假設重啟核能要多久你說3至5年3至5年才有可能達成這2030的目標你要想這個海底電纜"},{"start":4574.905,"end":4599.327,"text":"剛才台電的這個董事長有講他說高壓直流電就是要用這個海底電要用高壓直流電然後雖然高壓直流電的這個限損率只有交流電的一半但是到了台灣你還是要換交流電啊那目前不曉得部長知不知道因為南電北送的問題台灣台電電損一年有幾億度電您知道嗎"},{"start":4600.708,"end":4614.188,"text":"這個我想這個都在控制範圍之內我跟委員報告剛才那個我跟您報告台底電纜的部分我跟你報告不是我們台電去做了也不是我們去做了這個就是會有專家的廠商他們會來做"},{"start":4615.049,"end":4621.573,"text":"那他也要會賺錢他才能做阿我先告訴您台電每年的限損率是95億度電限損率是3.5%依照現在工業用度每度電4.3元的話年損是400億欸"},{"start":4631.48,"end":4644.466,"text":"四百億從台灣南電北送就要年損四百億那從菲律賓送上來的電距離是一整個台灣的長度部長有換算過說這樣子我們要損失多少電多少錢嗎我們負擔得起嗎"},{"start":4647.507,"end":4661.714,"text":"報告委員這一個的漏死這個是科學的問題那根據專家的報告就是在討論上面專家的報告大概最多會損失到33%33%對但是我買的電比如說我買的電是到我們家門口的價格"},{"start":4672.323,"end":4678.517,"text":"那您有算過說假設這條海底電纜真的要建置的話要花多少錢多少時間成本嗎?"},{"start":4679.648,"end":4692.264,"text":"這一個我想他們專家會提供這個資料我現在還在討論有可能可以跟得上2030的目標嗎我不能理解的是本席給部長一個數據台澎電纜總長度是67.9公里預算那時候花了將近160億元"},{"start":4700.853,"end":4719.1,"text":"這個從2005年規劃到完成喔耗時13年而且呢那個水深只有一兩百公尺而已台灣跟菲律賓之間的這個水深啊我們是隔著巴士海峽是有海溝的它海底的地形起伏變化深度可能有長達2000至5000公尺"},{"start":4722.722,"end":4723.143,"text":"整個海底電纜"},{"start":4736.118,"end":4738.379,"text":"你這句話本席不完全同意當初臺澎電纜蓋的時間其實比後面協商的時間還短"},{"start":4754.878,"end":4763.289,"text":"你後面你總是要上岸吧你台灣你要在哪裡上岸上岸的居民同意你上岸嗎你光溝通要多久你光這個台澎電纜你蓋好之後要上岸那時候溝通了多久你記得嗎所以我記得所以跟委員報告"},{"start":4772.561,"end":4779.885,"text":"其實整個台澎海嵐溝通的時間比施工期長很多所以你這個海底電纜不用上來嗎?是不是你要從哪裡上來你告訴我你都沒有去思考說他上岸的可能性然後他施工的這個期間跟他的時間成本怎麼跟得上2030嘛我現在要提醒部長的是技術面都先不談"},{"start":4797.654,"end":4816.743,"text":"你只要先去想說您是多麼的重要您是全國經濟的總舵手你一講全部的頭版都是你你會引起多少的不穩定這是本席想要提醒部長的這真的非常的重要而且不只是部長"},{"start":4817.943,"end":4829.008,"text":"總經理,你們了解嗎?菲律賓是亞洲電力不足的紅燈區,重點區他自己就常常在跳電,他自己就缺電我們在那邊設置電廠再賣回台灣沒有風險嗎?你同意嗎?你身為台電高層你同意嗎?跟委員報告,所有的工程進行之前一定要做詳細的評估那你覺得風險高不高?會不會催化我們的國安?"},{"start":4846.036,"end":4852.261,"text":"這個部分的評估還要再進行才知道所以我們暫時還不能回答所以本席的建議是為何不好好的盤點我們國內現行的整個能源結構包括我們的綠能再做改進你要去重啟核能都搞不好更實際更快速為什麼要捨盡求遠呢部長"},{"start":4869.531,"end":4898.503,"text":"報告委員我們這個只是在論壇上面討論的一個延續啦齁那我沒想到可以造成這麼大的波瀾我非常抱歉那但是這一個命題如果我們要做這樣子在國外買電的這個這樣的一個方式啊剛才所談的是不是在那邊設電廠啊或者是不是做電纜這個都有專家會去做我只是說您必須要深思熟慮我現在只是做事前的評估啦齁所以這一點我跟委員報告"},{"start":4899.343,"end":4899.623,"text":"主席有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":4935.506,"end":4961.158,"text":"委員長部長你知道欲蓋彌彰是什麼意思嗎?不是那麼清楚依照教育部國語辭典想要遮掩反而更加顯明那我告訴部長經濟部最近就完美示範什麼叫欲蓋彌彰我想請問部長來看看頭影片這三個會議記錄上請問部長被塗黑的主席是誰?"},{"start":4963.886,"end":4988.848,"text":"請問被塗黑的主席是誰?經濟部給我的喔?我所知啊,給我的是誰?我想請問部長這名字是髒字嗎?見不得人嗎?還是幹了什麼違法犯紀的事損害國家利益所以要把名字遮起來?這名字有這麼髒嗎?經濟部給我資料不敢給現在我請你公布這個見不得光的名字可不可以公布起來?"},{"start":4990.865,"end":5003.771,"text":"不改沒關係曾董事長請您上來請曾董事長這三個名字是不是鄭文森我剛才沒有看到你這個公司來再給你看清楚一點"},{"start":5005.049,"end":5018.456,"text":"就是不就是你 曾文森我們請提供的單位說明你直接回答我告訴你 就是你你相不相信委員你不要這樣子我不知道這個是什麼問題你不知道是誰阿來 沒關係109年3月2號下午1點30分在經濟事檢報室離岸風電規劃場址履約事項審查會記錄你有沒有主持"},{"start":5034.352,"end":5059.428,"text":"你有沒有主持來能源署長可不可以請能源署長回來這資料不是我是不是你都不知道下去了不用了沒關係不用你了連你自己都不敢承認是你自己沒關係我想請問一下部長他不願意回答沒關係白紙黑字那麼清楚沒關係我不問部長你沒有責任擔當你就下去部長請問什麼叫此地無銀三百兩你知道意思是什麼嗎"},{"start":5061.343,"end":5090.029,"text":"就是欲蓋彌彰部長我再告訴你貴部偉大欲蓋彌彰的事蹟我跟經濟部索取達德能源的股權變更的會議紀錄經濟部給了我3月會議紀錄總共8月請問你知道經濟部用多少時間給我8月啊報告委員我不清楚一個月的時間啊8月的會議資料要印一個月啊貴部是我當民代有史以來見過效率最差的部會啦是對不起"},{"start":5090.592,"end":5107.884,"text":"要不要檢討?會不要檢討,直接記公記家講他們為了要所謂的遮蓋能拖就拖來,我跟你講,不只這個更好笑的笑話是我跟他要與能的所謂的股權移轉的相關會議記錄經濟部給我三份,你知道實際上幾份嗎?"},{"start":5113.168,"end":5139.785,"text":"我告訴你四份非常好笑109年3月2號第一份蓋黑的不敢講主席的第二份109年3月17號也是蓋黑的不敢講主席的第四份是110年5月26號蓋黑的唯獨第三份不給我第三份是誰抱歉我就拿到了啊第三份主席就是曾文森啊我跟你講你知道為什麼不敢給嗎"},{"start":5141.718,"end":5164.828,"text":"你知道為什麼不敢給嗎?當然不敢給阿!第三份有塗黑嗎?第三份我自己拿到的!是阿!應該沒有塗黑吧?對!我自己拿到所以沒有塗黑!哇!那你可以調前面的這個三份喔!調前面三份!部長你真的太有擔當了!我是立法委員!我跟經濟部要所知!你給我蓋黑的資料就回頭跟我講說我自己不會去找!"},{"start":5166.128,"end":5184.099,"text":"這個意思嗎?部長我一直很尊敬你 如果是那種態度的話 抱歉沒關係我再來講下一個我問你 你知道為什麼今天三個要蓋黑 到現在曾文森不敢講是他為什麼第三個不蓋黑?我跟你講沒關係 因為你隱藏的文件包含就圖利啦"},{"start":5192.239,"end":5220.644,"text":"至少國庫損失400億啊 這第三份文件啊來 我告訴你沒關係 部長 我知道你打拖延戰術 說過沒有關係啦部長 你不需要為曾文森捍衛到這種程度來 我不跟你吵架 來我想請問您吼 第一份會議紀錄2018年11月2018年4月達得獲得准許經營允能風場 它的股權比例是多少"},{"start":5222.998,"end":5249.797,"text":"我請這個百分之百啦不對告訴我啦對不對當時百分之百對獨資啊來到了2018年11月齁達德開始試股他的股權剩多少73啦不對再告訴我啦到了2020年3月再做股權變更他的股權剩多少48啦"},{"start":5252.145,"end":5270.289,"text":"到了2022年6月他的股權剩多少0啦那我想請問你當初我們經濟部允許他所謂的來去籌設我們的電廠條件是什麼發起人股權不可以4到50%以下吧對不對是不是"},{"start":5273.359,"end":5297.041,"text":"報告委員,在我們的行政契約裡面,針對重大變更要經過經濟部審查...你要講專案申請,我要跟你講專案申請,我先講原始的原則條件就是不能到50%以下,對不對?沒錯吧?在契約裡面是說這些重大變更要經過經濟部審查...原則不能低於經濟部審查以後專案,那是另外一回事,你不要跟我扯東扯西,沒關係,你要跟他講專案,來來來"},{"start":5298.722,"end":5318.903,"text":"這就第三份會議之路為什麼專案出來了為什麼你要遮掩我直接跟你講第三份會議記錄裡面就已經是發現達德從100一直在降降到48的時候經濟部也受不了了經濟部是不是跟他講說你不得再去變更股權結構在第三次會議的時候"},{"start":5320.796,"end":5340.112,"text":"報告委員那時候有發現所以說在取得電業執照之前不可以再去做對很好不可以然後呢所以搭配的有聽我講完齁聽我講完如果違約的罰則是什麼我們那時候有搭配的你跟我講如果違約的罰則是什麼我問你不要問東達西違約的罰則是什麼當時違約除以19.2億的懲罰性違約金沒錯吧"},{"start":5351.618,"end":5376.855,"text":"會議紀錄講的嗎?這個是說如果他沒有辦法完整的話如果我跟你講很簡單他從100變到0你原則要50%現在你跟我專案核准你第三次會議紀錄就覺得不對了來第二個不只喔20億不是最嚴重的來第二個罰則如果違約的話要用迴避成本來短購與能全部電能你知道迴避成本是什麼意思啊?"},{"start":5377.84,"end":5398.012,"text":"報告委員 那個19點迴避成本多少錢迴避成本要根據他當時的台電當年度的迴避成本2.13元啦你連答都答不出來我來當你的職位算了那我想請問你齁你知道光這一條基本上如果用迴避成本來懲罰的話你知道金額可以高達多少你知道嗎我告訴你啦410"},{"start":5402.745,"end":5428.383,"text":"我們本來的價差是5.8塊錢每度如果變迴避成本是2.13光價差3.67元每度而允能風場發電量的預定是22.4億度所以5年算起來是411億元我最後問部長一件事情很簡單第三次的違約的條件構成之後你們到最後股權變零你們有沒有罰有沒有罰20億"},{"start":5432.25,"end":5445.001,"text":"有沒有 有還是沒有啊沒有啦依照規定開罰3.5億3.5億啊 恭喜你啊 好棒啊20億罰3.5億 411億罰3.5億啊沒關係 我現在想請教部長請教部長 我想請教部長來 部長我想請教你我今天就公開質疑啊照檢方的偵辦標準齁"},{"start":5456.231,"end":5476.542,"text":"將近有400億的裁量空間如果今天你說各位跟我裁罰3.5億有沒有圖利問題該罰不罰就是圖利如果委員你認為他是有圖利問題我們就送檢調來因為我送你去贈風部好不好你可以贈風感謝部長有擔當要把我們曾文森移到贈風室移到檢調謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":5487.51,"end":5498.36,"text":"請楊瓊益委員質詢謝主席本席想邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":5507.583,"end":5533.283,"text":"委員長部長好針對於電呢全球都非常的關注當然我也看到你在努力你在努力呢想盡一切辦法要怎麼樣讓我們台灣的電它是足夠的而且不缺所以呢本席要請教因為我們在媒體上面看到報紙上面看到您說你的發想菲律賓蓋綠電廠菲律賓蓋綠電廠"},{"start":5537.226,"end":5548.714,"text":"您也說了要透過AI的協助在鄰近的菲律賓或者是日本來興建綠電廠再經由船運或者是海底電纜線運回來台灣供需要綠電的廠商來使用這個共享請問第一個議題你預計要投資多少的一個預算規模"},{"start":5560.402,"end":5576.14,"text":"第二個這個發想到底是誰發想的請做說明報告委員這個是我們在做這個民主區域聯盟那麼在分享這個所有的這個綠能也就是說綠能在未來2050年進行檢查這個問題我個人"},{"start":5579.944,"end":5580.084,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5597.555,"end":5613.362,"text":"報告委員這個造成因為我這個講得不夠精準所以造成這個媒體的誤解這個我感到非常的抱歉也對委員感到抱歉那你講是沒這回事囉不是沒有這回事還是只有天荒夜談"},{"start":5614.842,"end":5641.575,"text":"確實我現在在想這個然後我們才提出讓專家繼續來討論學者繼續來研究那麼做這個可行性分析我想我們不會你有KPI嗎可行性分析什麼時候會分析出來我們現在開始尋求這一方面的專家包括台電內部是你預估多久你可以評估要做不做應該會有這樣答案是多久時間呢"},{"start":5644.376,"end":5667.975,"text":"呃 我不知道我們的專家學者可以多快給我 但是這個命令 你的目標呢你的目標呢 我目標當然是越快越好 越快越好是一個月 三個月還是半年 還是一年 報告我們這麼重要的一件事情覺得不是兩三個月可以達到好 那多久時間呢 你的目標 總是要有一個目標 我的經驗吶 是"},{"start":5669.136,"end":5678.418,"text":"我希望半年內可以有一個比較完整的計畫可以產生到時候我會讓委員來指教那我們這個議題就是說您的發想您說是你個人那也希望專家學者大家一起來去討論可行性那預估的時間是半年的時間那在這邊呢本席要繼續跟你討論也就是說您說要從電纜線您說要用船運的這是你的想法"},{"start":5697.822,"end":5722.131,"text":"目前目前我們台電在6月份的時候也曾經說過了也就是如果中南部去輸給北部他的耗損是有困難的是影響很大的光光在我們國內這樣子幾十公里幾十公里就會有困難那麼您的其發其想"},{"start":5723.371,"end":5730.761,"text":"也就是用船運如果又碰到SARS的又碰到疫情的港口封起來又碰到這個特殊狀況的您說要用船運要用電纜線"},{"start":5738.408,"end":5755.212,"text":"報告委員 這個用船運或者用電纜線都是在國際上面那麼有專家學者都已經報告過了也是也實驗在進行中的這個他是實驗進行中不是執行中嘛所以本席要提點你半年內您剛才承諾的半年要去討論是否可涉這一個那麼也就是說在民眾的疑慮你也必須納入去考量"},{"start":5767.014,"end":5782.52,"text":"不要再來一個不同調上一次因為0.95的健保行政院長跟邱部長不同調那麼在現在鄭文森董事長坐在這邊那麼他已經說了你中南部這樣子他耗損是"},{"start":5784.481,"end":5810.759,"text":"是不太可能的在這樣的一個情況之下臺電目前所面臨的困境那又來一個不同調的這個郭部長跟曾董事長本期不希望看到這樣子所以我們提點將你這一些民眾的疑慮希望能夠納入去考慮深思熟慮深思熟慮這是非常的重要所以本期再度請教"},{"start":5811.559,"end":5840.296,"text":"您有這個啟發啟想的目的是要為了讓我們的廠商需要綠電的人能夠能夠得到電還是為了其他的因素呢報告委員我們在這個目前2030年之前的目標我想這個您都非常的清楚但是我們有一個很大的目標是2050年我們必須要淨零減碳這個是全球的議題"},{"start":5841.587,"end":5868.629,"text":"那麼全球的議題在所有民主聯盟裡面的國家大家都在討論如何來互相協助進行檢探我剛才在講的菲律賓設電廠也不見得是我們台電去設電廠我剛才講的海嵐跟海船也不見得是台灣去設海嵐好這就是本期要請問你的您的發想要到菲律賓去建電廠出資者到底是誰是政府還是廠商"},{"start":5871.371,"end":5873.371,"text":"所以我認為這個是這樣的就是說可能我說話不夠精準這一點我很抱歉"},{"start":5895.996,"end":5924.445,"text":"但是實際的狀況就是我剛才所跟您報告的就是這個樣子也就是說我們希望在那邊有電廠可以把綠電我們也可能買得到這一些綠電它的電源供給給這個那我們的目的也是要跟世界接軌嗎未來您的碳的問題要跟環境部再拉嗎再討論所以本期跟一個一個方向也就是說全球您"},{"start":5926.807,"end":5953.639,"text":"發布要擔任部長的時候我非常的讚許因為你說了一句話核電是乾淨的能源不管怎麼樣再轉再變這個是不變的事實因為微軟亞馬遜Google黃元勳他們極力都在買核電對不對是不是是他是啊他是而且黃元勳還講啊黃董還講說核電是非常好的能源是不是"},{"start":5955.311,"end":5964.7,"text":"一段我不知清楚那在這樣的一個情況之下我給你一個數字也就是你在112年你預計要買的是189億度是1047億"},{"start":5972.688,"end":5976.53,"text":"人民的錢113年現在是234億度是1286億在你114年你是要買286億度所以你要花預計是1546億元那在這樣的情況之下我們給你算了這個基本的成本 風電"},{"start":5997.18,"end":6003.522,"text":"風跟光你在112年是5.5元113年現在5.4元你預估的明年度還是5.4元核電的部分成本是1.16元風電4.6億元光電3.75元你們都告訴我們"},{"start":6016.727,"end":6027.034,"text":"我們會逐年的來降但是實際上你所編出來數字會講話他是不降的所以你政策性跟你實質的編列預算他是不吻合的部長本席不希望看到這樣子因為你來自產業你一直點頭我知道你心裡也很急"},{"start":6037.862,"end":6044.967,"text":"也很希望把政策性能夠落實在數字告訴民眾對不對所以我非常理性的跟你討論世界各國都在搶買核電它的價格是多少我國告訴我們是會降但是你沒有降而且你逐步在增加在這樣的情況之下你怎麼對得起我們民眾呢你的政策到底哪裡出了問題你的綠電缺口到底有多大請說明"},{"start":6066.081,"end":6071.705,"text":"降價的部分我們會來努力我想我們會我透過管理的這個機制我會來努力透過管理你怎麼管理你怎麼管理你的編列預算難怪預算要重溢"},{"start":6082.874,"end":6084.395,"text":"請你一家公司的這個價格他基本上就是從他的成本上面來看"},{"start":6111.868,"end":6112.009,"text":"主席"},{"start":6127.825,"end":6142.877,"text":"你現在是經濟部長一個政策你齊發齊想就公布出來讓民眾你來道歉我們很緊張我們也願意接受你的道歉半年後給我們答案第二個你說要從管理所以本期給你一個功課"},{"start":6143.678,"end":6146.36,"text":"你應該因為你說了如果兩年後台電還是漲價你要走人這不是一個有為的政務官應當有的擔當而是你應該要好好的努力去讓他達到怎麼樣的財務健全你認不認同 對不對所以本席給你一個功課你應該要提出財務的管理改革"},{"start":6166.89,"end":6193.098,"text":"電價以及能源發展未來這幾年的明確規劃同時為了全民的事宜你要將兩年內讓台電的財務健全要告訴大家你怎麼具體的作為每年的改革這個方案目標到底是什麼所以我具體建議你2030年要達到這個燃氣的五成再生能源三成每"},{"start":6194.258,"end":6196.219,"text":"是兩層這是你的目標剛才你說的但是你也應該要把光電風電天然氣的電廠接收站以及你有關的這個發電量建設進度你要逐年的公布逐年的公布"},{"start":6211.903,"end":6232.437,"text":"列出你每一年的進度跟這個目標才能夠真正的整體性的一個統整你贊不贊成本席的建議謝謝委員指教那你謝謝我的指教就是認同認同你就是要做你剛剛說的管理本席所給你的建議你多久時間去統整一份資料給我們"},{"start":6234.619,"end":6240.02,"text":"因為你的預算跟實際政策都不同還好現在充裕你趕快趁著充裕的時間趕快去調整好嗎所以剛剛說的那個你多久時間可以這樣計劃給本金我會就那個同意的內容去調整好 那多久時間可以跟我們基本上這個我想這個我還要跟所有的幹部啊對沒關係你給我一個時間然後形成共識這個我看大概也要半年吧"},{"start":6263.188,"end":6287.57,"text":"不用半年啦,你三個月請教你們的這些方案,你不趕快納入,你再半年你又來不及了,你預算執行啊!三個月好不好?好不好?謝謝是怎麼樣?好不好?好,就三個月,部長回去趕快做好,我們希望台電不能倒,但是要讓台電真正,真正它有能量啊!好不好?謝謝"},{"start":6294.806,"end":6308.606,"text":"請鄭正前委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":6316.443,"end":6339.655,"text":"委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波"},{"start":6345.267,"end":6358.257,"text":"不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大"},{"start":6367.729,"end":6385.552,"text":"這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多"},{"start":6387.557,"end":6404.012,"text":"我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過"},{"start":6412.359,"end":6440.021,"text":"我就這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被"},{"start":6440.781,"end":6458.13,"text":"整個離岸風電產業大家認為是九二三之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對"},{"start":6461.984,"end":6463.465,"text":"報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的"},{"start":6489.818,"end":6514.498,"text":"那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎對這個就是"},{"start":6516.52,"end":6542.117,"text":"有很多 包括菲律賓 我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的所以 那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的"},{"start":6542.757,"end":6563.217,"text":"中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能"},{"start":6564.197,"end":6578.331,"text":"報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你"},{"start":6578.831,"end":6580.352,"text":"你今天也特別提到了非核不是省主牌那針對這個部分因為"},{"start":6594.284,"end":6614.706,"text":"我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論核三廠是不是能夠繼續延續使用的問題你在這邊可不可以針對台灣的核能政策說更清楚的一個交代"},{"start":6615.359,"end":6635.777,"text":"報告委員我想核能的政策我們在這個報告上面也寫得非常清楚我們第一個基於安全的考量那第二個全民共識第三個核廢料可以處理我想這個三個要件這個要素能夠解決我們都目前有在努力嗎目前有在努力嗎"},{"start":6636.557,"end":6648.048,"text":"我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在民間應該都有在討論才對"},{"start":6650.407,"end":6678.738,"text":"OK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是只是為了民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買"},{"start":6680.299,"end":6684.063,"text":"報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜是不是"},{"start":6695.674,"end":6695.714,"text":"好的"},{"start":6719.261,"end":6744.073,"text":"好那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之1 3之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明"},{"start":6745.339,"end":6767.175,"text":"報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些"},{"start":6772.697,"end":6797.844,"text":"得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣"},{"start":6798.684,"end":6814.466,"text":"師父長所以你這樣提的狀態就是說如期並往是最重要的一個前提對不對如果如期並往他們能夠做到沒問題如果不能做到的時候我們可能就會去改變原本他們競比當中的條件是這個意思嗎沒有我們是協助他"},{"start":6817.228,"end":6827.991,"text":"針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標呢其實能夠達到"},{"start":6830.452,"end":6830.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6860.592,"end":6866.637,"text":"政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場我們希望增加國內的"},{"start":6885.05,"end":6888.435,"text":"三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是"},{"start":6902.812,"end":6926.459,"text":"謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠"},{"start":6928.62,"end":6929.702,"text":"在賴瑞隆委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":6955.043,"end":6975.162,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6975.674,"end":6976.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7002.302,"end":7002.462,"text":"主席"},{"start":7018.444,"end":7041.284,"text":"我們看到一期 這也是陳寧菲一直在追的一期的回饋金簽的地方 21.6億當時候在我們的環評裡面 所寫的是要售電收入的回饋結果 申辦自己把它改變成盈餘你知道這當中20年差了多少 21.6億"},{"start":7044.173,"end":7060.063,"text":"結果現在不跟地方談沒有談啊騙你的啦在談什麼在談成為別的特定人士的小金庫在地居然辦活動沒有辦法爭取到預算的一個補助"},{"start":7064.454,"end":7089.389,"text":"其他完全不在這個區塊的還可以爭取到補助我將這個新聞報得非常清楚我們也是收到了一大堆澄清案回饋金不跟地方談欠地方的不談21.6億不談成為特定人士的小金庫再來二期沿用一期的管線現在都在試營運"},{"start":7091.653,"end":7112.488,"text":"地方炸鍋欸問題是安全在哪裡沒有人沒有人說也沒有人給我們資料也沒有人給我們評估在環評要用二期來沿用一期的管線居然在環評裡面沒有任何的一些監測標準現在是我們質詢之後現在才開始做一些監測"},{"start":7121.121,"end":7149.404,"text":"你是不是把地方人民的生命財產安全當成什麼當成什麼這是誰在護航誰在護航再來 署長久違久違安定 要在安定設廠天然性拒絕現在素股廠商也拒絕那現在要何去何從嘿 好"},{"start":7150.71,"end":7173.946,"text":"現在好奇怪九位是拿到台電他的核准天然氣設置的核准好奇怪現在安定設廠拒絕因為當時候也是我帶頭的因為他沒有辦法給地方安全的證明所以當時候安定安南"},{"start":7175.268,"end":7202.329,"text":"所有的民眾反彈請你們趕快去做說明趕快去做一些溝通你們都置之不理大家都置之不理好拒絕了大家都拒絕了現在聽說在議會有決議要去溯谷園區現在連廠商也拒絕那大家都拒絕了居然還有一個電廠突然之間寶春"},{"start":7205.134,"end":7228.935,"text":"目前好奇怪喔在第一時間我想這個資料署長也清楚他已經違反行政程序沒有讓地方同意結果就跟台糖申請結果台糖是拒絕台糖是拒絕你們能源署也沒有收到任何的資料然後他們現在在做什麼"},{"start":7233.547,"end":7261.652,"text":"目前喔 都沒有提出任何申請 地點也沒確認保村居然在各地辦理各區的說明會在各地喔 善化 關鐵 麻豆 到處辦 到處辦他在辦什麼 然後善化的民眾問他說請問你要設置哪裡 阿伯國庭啦請問你阿伯國庭 那你今天在召開什麼樣的說明會"},{"start":7263.291,"end":7289.351,"text":"你地點都沒確認你還召開什麼說明會我跟台堂問請問他有跟你們申請嗎沒有我跟能源署問沒有那請問他可以在各區辦說明會造成人心惶惶我收了一堆陳情書反對的陳情書那請問他在製造這個假象是什麼是認為"},{"start":7292.966,"end":7305.242,"text":"現在九位不能做了因為我們都反對九位不能做了所以他有機會有人在撐腰可以去拿到這張執照"},{"start":7306.88,"end":7330.339,"text":"是這樣嗎?否則你跟我說保春現在也沒拿到台電的天然氣的相關資料然後又沒有提出申請他到處在辦說明會是在辦什麼搞得大家現在一頭霧水署長我剛剛提出來這整個他電廠可以橫著走嗎?"},{"start":7331.863,"end":7355.616,"text":"跟我們報告所有的電廠設立當然要依照相關的法令那這中間在台南完全沒有阿在台南完全沒有依照相關的SOP在走阿到底是誰到底是誰嘛誰在護航嘛否則為什麼我們台南這麼奇怪電廠都可以不照著我們應有的規定辦理"},{"start":7358.988,"end":7369.499,"text":"都可以做直升機做噴射機然後搞的地方那麼大的反彈搞的地方都要出來抗爭為什麼"},{"start":7372.426,"end":7372.766,"text":"今天該辦的不辦"},{"start":7399.557,"end":7417.864,"text":"今天申辦應該去辦地方說明會去跟地方說他的管線要怎麼跑然後他的安全性在哪裡去適宜的是申辦他不辦他不辦結果保村連八字都沒一撇"},{"start":7419.485,"end":7431.528,"text":"也沒有拿到台電的准許也沒有跟台糖去申請到相關的土地也沒有跟我們能源署申請他到處在辦他在辦什麼他在辦什麼這不是奇怪嗎該辦的不辦然後不該辦的造成地方的恐慌去到麻豆大家要說是要在我們麻豆設電廠"},{"start":7448.834,"end":7463.485,"text":"阿去上化然後去關田大家一頭霧水現在是要來我們這邊設了嗎所以 署長台南到底怎麼了台南到底怎麼了呃"},{"start":7467.85,"end":7486.216,"text":"有關於這個電力開發計畫我還是說都要依照相關的法令來執行委員所關切的包括第一個生霸生霸這部分剛剛委員所關心的回饋金的部分分成一期跟二期剛剛委員談到的那個一期的部分是在我們的電協已經發布之前"},{"start":7486.876,"end":7508.056,"text":"所以這個部分看他有沒有跟地方的相關的協議那委員提到的有關在環評說明書裡面所提到的這些相關論述那個已經寫得很清楚了啦從去年開始到今年你們有什麼樣的進度完全沒有沒有進度一期沒有進度然後二期甚至可以無限上綱變成讓電廠自己可以去"},{"start":7512.36,"end":7532.628,"text":"處理他那40%的部分這我完全不能接受沒有安全性然後又可以變成是小金庫變成是電廠的小金庫來修理地方反對他的人我沒辦法接受我告訴你署長我再次強調喔沒有安全我告訴你生霸不可能讓他運轉"},{"start":7534.329,"end":7552.21,"text":"第二今天回饋金沒有處理地方沒有辦法接受因為欠地方的21.6億就要歸還這很簡單然後保村他基本上完全八字沒一撇他到底在做什麼樣的處理"},{"start":7554.239,"end":7567.471,"text":"這是不是有人在乎啦 我不知道啦喔 署長你申報如果在這樣子橫著走寶村在這樣橫著走因為酒會大概也已經大家地方都反對也沒機會了啦如果電廠要橫著走"},{"start":7573.066,"end":7593.025,"text":"沒有人願意陪著你們這樣子毫無關注地方的聲音我們永遠跟人民站在一起我們永遠跟人民站在一起如果真的我們會跟人民站在第一線抗議要嘛就從我們的身上踩過去"},{"start":7604.189,"end":7604.209,"text":"委員質詢"},{"start":7620.336,"end":7649.173,"text":"好部長 委員好我想今天很多人談到這個海外蓋綠電廠這件事情那我覺得本意上看來應該是我們面對2030的綠能的一些需求包括2050的一個淨零碳排的一些壓力所以當然部長想各種更多元性的一些方案那各種可行性來整體來思考特別也看到了包括挪威跟英國的例子包括新加坡跟澳洲的這樣一個例子部長起源點是不是從這邊來的"},{"start":7651.586,"end":7668.683,"text":"我想發想是從這兩個例子來發想的但是我們是一直是在這個所謂的民主同盟裡面的所謂的互相支援然後談到綠能因為會這個2050年地球的淨零減碳這樣一個大的目標"},{"start":7673.288,"end":7702.07,"text":"所以這個綠能就是在民主同盟國裡面大家互相支援討論這個是過去一直到現在那因為我有看到這兩個案子他說在那一天這個四百名夫他成立這個這個樂泰這樣的一個智庫那討論的時候在我之前那麼這個日本的大使還有這個美國的大使都有提到這個民主同盟之間大家要互相的這個協助"},{"start":7703.471,"end":7703.871,"text":"這根本的問題是來自於不斷的要去"},{"start":7732.141,"end":7756.48,"text":"這個改善跟解決我們的綠能就是說我們其實遇到不管太陽光電風力甚至於這個很多的一些地方政府或者是一些民間的一些我們應該更有努力去克服掉這些困難這個其實才是一個更根本那當然很多多元的方案都必須做但我認為應該花更多力氣去建立一個好的制度好的方案那減少一些不必要一些的阻力不能讓綠能這一塊我認為這個應該是那至於像提到這個當然但是我想講就是說"},{"start":7761.444,"end":7781.449,"text":"其實這個企業家跟部長的角色其實是不太一樣的就企業家當然有很多的想法但部長的時候其實部長有想到你這兩天這樣的發言結果今天竟然報紙把你做了頭版同僚這一點我要這個以後要謹言慎行這個我有時候會忘記我"},{"start":7782.129,"end":7809.525,"text":"已經不是郭董事長了所以這一點我非常抱歉企業領袖有很多的意見但是部長統領這麼多的那你每出來以後他有可能就會形成一個認定可能是國家的政策所以他就會很大去處理那我剛剛也聽到了所以我想部長剛才提到這是一個發想一個想法但是我剛剛也聽到有很多的委員問到那部長說半年內要做出一個有一個"},{"start":7810.606,"end":7812.308,"text":"可行性評估我希望這些整體的那個啦那這個將會是由部裡面去做嗎還是"},{"start":7818.971,"end":7842.345,"text":"我們當然有很多方向包括其他的智庫大家都會去討論我還是要提醒部長這件事情掛射到的很多的部會不見得只有經濟部而已所以我既然部長已經講了半年內要出來那我們就看這個但我只是覺得很多事情其實恐怕是部長可以再思考的更清楚一些那個因為你有很多很堅強的幕僚團隊去協助你我認為這個會更"},{"start":7845.587,"end":7861.086,"text":"更成熟的狀況甚至於如果這些事情要提出來應該是在更成熟的狀況下來提出來比較國人跟整個各界比較能夠理解好的我再接下來問一下其實我相當關心問題大臨普遷村"},{"start":7861.867,"end":7889.034,"text":"我反而覺得這些都是很重要的議題因為大靈浦千村不只涉及到人民的安全還有涉及到我們的一些產業地方產業的一些發展這反倒很重要啦那其實我們原先規劃的時間點其實在2023年2023年就去年就應該要完成土地的問題的解決但是我們到目前為止還沒有就是我們的土地問題還沒有做的解決部長這個期程整個已經延後這是2019年蘇院長核定的期程我們要拖延到什麼時間點"},{"start":7890.995,"end":7900.105,"text":"這個會什麼時候可以來完成土地取得這件事情也就是說跟居民的這個土地的取得報告委員我可不可以請我們園館去來回答"},{"start":7902.835,"end":7926.312,"text":"時間有限,我只請部長回去把這件事情要盯緊因為他整個期程其實已經拖延了應該在去年,那現在包括要進入到二階的環平因為這個土地面積大你看第一次二階環平的時間點是2020年4月29號就開了這個將近四年前就開了但是到現在還沒有來完成"},{"start":7927.353,"end":7941.138,"text":"預估可能要一年到兩年的時間我希望這件事情也請部長跟這個環境部的部長也再溝通好不好這要加快他牽扯到國家的重大的一些建設我希望能夠在一年內完成這樣的環評的討論好嗎"},{"start":7942.358,"end":7961.869,"text":"我來跟這個環境部長來討論一下好那另外還有一個重要的事情是所有的鄉親我們在問那什麼時候開始來進行這些登記的一些程序我們看前面那個時間點本來到2023年就應該要完成這個工作就土地的取得阿包括一些相關的一坪換一坪這些那現在我是希望"},{"start":7963.791,"end":7983.843,"text":"這個經濟部加快它的速度在進行環評的同時的時候能不能同時間也啟動今年10月開始要進行環評的程序二階環評的程序了這已經拖延了那接下來我希望部長能不能回去也同步的跟經濟部的同仁的要求跟市府那邊也持續溝通能夠在今年的10月份"},{"start":7984.663,"end":8007.612,"text":"開始現在10月了今年底之前也同步啟動預登記的作業就是說讓人民先開始做選擇因為你若等到環評結束再進行後面的程序可能又一年兩年的時間過了又要再一年兩年然後會遙遙無期從核定蘇院長核定到現在已經經過5年了人民其實連這次颱風過後到底要不要修繕他們都有很大的壓力那我跟你說能不能兩件事情同步來進行讓"},{"start":8008.912,"end":8028.052,"text":"整個環評程序在走之後同時間預登記也進行讓老百姓知道說我接下來我的選擇方案是什麼我是要土地要房子還是要什麼我能夠更清楚的選擇那政府也可以更清楚的規劃出方案出來那能夠在未來環評完成了之後這些的預登記的規劃也初步完成了縮減那個在這個兩個階段的一個討論的時間"},{"start":8031.445,"end":8039.801,"text":"報告委員我們會加快以高雄市政府來進行寫上部長可不可以承諾我在今年底之前開始進行預登記這樣的作業好嗎"},{"start":8043.151,"end":8067.052,"text":"可以嗎部長現在我想這個登記的作業是委託高雄市政府在進行我希望部長跟高雄市一起來完成這整件事情這件事情是經濟部主要的工作高雄市政府是受你們所委託的主導權在你們身上啦好不好我希望這件事情部長朝這個方向今年年底前來進行預登記讓老百姓可以開始來進行選擇好嗎"},{"start":8068.113,"end":8089.13,"text":"我們會一起努力啦 朝這個方向市政府一起努力來進行部長我希望要全力的朝這個方向那也希望部長多花點時間處理這件事情是 謝謝那另外我想問一下雅灣的那個上次有提到AMD的部分也很謝謝部長的支持到台南到高雄但是高雄也原先要設置一個研發的據點那現在的進度到哪邊部長知道嗎"},{"start":8091.272,"end":8106.103,"text":"AMP的部分我想他有他們公司的這個進度啦這個是我們的這個跟我們的這個大A計畫在進行我想他目前沒有非常具體的時間但是他一定會進去"},{"start":8106.803,"end":8131.504,"text":"他主要跟中山大學有合作嘛那這矽光子計畫我想應該是有在進行AMD一定會進駐高雄嘛這個是確定的那至於騎乘的部分也請部長再大力協助啦好不好讓AMD進駐高雄這件事情能加快他的騎乘包括研發據點研發中心等等希望能夠加快他目前是跟中山大學一起合作矽光子那希望加快他的騎乘好嗎是好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":8138.097,"end":8138.663,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8168.293,"end":8168.313,"text":"本會議會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8195.824,"end":8197.045,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8211.039,"end":8211.5,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8235.183,"end":8235.984,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8262.606,"end":8263.366,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8291.758,"end":8309.744,"text":"看最後定案,看最後定案的結果是怎樣因為會有不同的意見有的人覺得門檻要降低一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,有的人覺得門檻要高一點,"},{"start":8318.645,"end":8321.269,"text":"有不同的利害關係的不同的看法"},{"start":8338.19,"end":8338.971,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8357.089,"end":8360.071,"text":"我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃"},{"start":8383.977,"end":8396.546,"text":"好像都覺得我走太快了 還沒有具體做法就講了我以前在教書跟各位說這個命名這樣 下一個在訪問你習慣這樣 抱歉我還是要跟很多大陸人討論 開始要國防"},{"start":8412.416,"end":8413.877,"text":"光電是很重要的"},{"start":8442.081,"end":8461.457,"text":"光電是很快的,光電大概待一天很耗氧,其他的任何的費用才會負擔所以我們現在走進到2040年,人們都說歐盟,歐盟牌,臺灣政府就可以了解這個意思,歐盟牌,因為這樣我們應該會比較操心,因為現在不太能恰恰"},{"start":8471.172,"end":8471.332,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8493.388,"end":8504.773,"text":"他會delay 主要就是 會不會影響到這個生態一些的意見這個就是 這個很取捨的問題如果支持的話謝謝大家"},{"start":8521.41,"end":8521.531,"text":"臨時會議主席"},{"start":8539.798,"end":8540.399,"text":"臨時主席臨時主席"},{"start":8579.588,"end":8580.188,"text":"張綺楷委員"},{"start":8607.901,"end":8619.828,"text":"請郭部長你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的匾額以後提醒你不要在天馬行空講太快"},{"start":8633.564,"end":8657.871,"text":"要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是,大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠,你就救回來你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?"},{"start":8662.498,"end":8664.28,"text":"臺電我剛看臺電到今天的虧損4420億"},{"start":8688.18,"end":8691.741,"text":"報告委員 這個不是叫台電去做的不是台電去做只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題"},{"start":8710.054,"end":8726.181,"text":"然後我們建議在那個地方可以蓋個電廠可以分享給菲律賓我們台灣也可以從那個地方來買這個電所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對"},{"start":8731.526,"end":8748.142,"text":"人民現在擔心的是,成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到,因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?"},{"start":8748.963,"end":8762.829,"text":"第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚那些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民執意都是這個嘛第二個問題萬芒姐姐"},{"start":8765.211,"end":8786.168,"text":"所以沒有正相關嗎?這是沒有正相關,這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情那我就是擷取"},{"start":8786.929,"end":8789.434,"text":"所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處?你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情"},{"start":8795.555,"end":8795.875,"text":"根據媒體的報告2030"},{"start":8825.279,"end":8843.376,"text":"2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站在...我是...我是還在啦但是不一定在這個位置沒有啦,你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲了啦沒有啦,我...現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員"},{"start":8849.742,"end":8863.673,"text":"我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題不是你現在一直講你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行就是說你又是一個團隊"},{"start":8877.273,"end":8905.719,"text":"你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是謝謝委員有請你多多指導2030現在重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價"},{"start":8906.704,"end":8932.799,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛"},{"start":8936.601,"end":8939.142,"text":"我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證"},{"start":8958.652,"end":8984.271,"text":"我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲撥補給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我們會詳細看要不要給你撥補很討人第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不跑的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊"},{"start":8988.459,"end":9009.015,"text":"你們比較好的 運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了 省了380億你4月份漲電價 都收入了625億10月份又漲 這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了 今年多150億那如果加撥補 所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個"},{"start":9012.237,"end":9037.607,"text":"人民納稅錢你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我建議你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你每年河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊"},{"start":9040.066,"end":9059.11,"text":"那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你和一廠跟和二廠,和一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!"},{"start":9062.984,"end":9091.715,"text":"二號機要204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞2022年進行你開始虧損八百億以上所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛才說的你真的要去國外設什麼設什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在一個大問題你現在買電現在都在高峰上面"},{"start":9093.664,"end":9104.03,"text":"現在再生能源的價格 現在電的這個成本 我問你一下現在平均 我剛剛上你台電的官網看 你現在平均的發電跟過電的成本是多少 3.06你知道嗎 風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎 風力發電 你台電的官網看得到嗎"},{"start":9118.118,"end":9125.301,"text":"6.59不定風率平均5.2對外購買的話今天啦我今天上去看的是5.6.59將近"},{"start":9128.715,"end":9154.992,"text":"五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電多少?總經理多少?呃我們這邊的太陽光電平均是四點八八左右四點八八接近五塊好你的成本是三點零六你看看我剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理啦核電廠一年的如果加核一核二核三全部都停了到明年就全部都停了對不對"},{"start":9156.235,"end":9162.91,"text":"總共一千億財政活動你現在碰到再生能源我剛算給你聽了你的電價你購電的成本將近都比平常多了兩倍"},{"start":9170.194,"end":9188.129,"text":"這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來第二個"},{"start":9189.346,"end":9189.446,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":9213.261,"end":9242.062,"text":"這個減下來6塊錢5塊錢去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎"},{"start":9242.85,"end":9264.528,"text":"我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪座談會啊"},{"start":9266.206,"end":9274.525,"text":"你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?"},{"start":9276.752,"end":9300.091,"text":"上面怎麼我看到光文上面來來來上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊前幾天部長去的啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治綠能犯罪壽檯啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我沒看見林文信什麼人沒有"},{"start":9303.217,"end":9332.049,"text":"報告委員 我不熟你不是林文信 林文信同時你去開花林文信就是臺南88鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置 他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有 這個很諷刺啊他已經掉開了掉開 那為什麼我上面看到資料 他負責召集跟通知"},{"start":9333.479,"end":9360.482,"text":"各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置了你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人就負責召集"},{"start":9363.05,"end":9372.532,"text":"這事情怎麼辦?我們會把它...我們已經把它掉開了我們現在已經把它掉開了所以它不可能...它不可能介入這個議題沒有啦 那是過去啦我們要面對這個問題解決問題是在未來部長 這個會非常重要喔你去 法務部長 連行政院長都去這會是不是重要?"},{"start":9390.916,"end":9416.741,"text":"來啦 我要講 先講事情 來來來 等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要 這真的太離譜 這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個 他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開 我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職 他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好 這個要調離開"},{"start":9418.885,"end":9442.575,"text":"好先這樣子那等一下我剛講您在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書面好不好那剛講的更重要的喔人民票的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎"},{"start":9444.272,"end":9444.452,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":9485.092,"end":9510.456,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長還有台電請郭部長 請曾董事長委員好部長 這個新聞今天大家都很關心本席會有另外看法"},{"start":9512.749,"end":9540.515,"text":"這個總是有個方向方向不一定這個要做但是要審慎評估審慎評估因為畢竟台灣台灣這這麼多年來對電的問題一再改變一再改變這個是不是一個一個方向只要審慎評估"},{"start":9542.09,"end":9542.33,"text":"二千六百億"},{"start":9570.707,"end":9578.489,"text":"這邊是寫法定預算2600多億投資金額是2936億然後又追加預算400億當時的錢1999年當時的錢是非常非常大就這樣"},{"start":9598.166,"end":9600.186,"text":"臺電一直要經過政府的人民的納稅錢去撥補"},{"start":9628.816,"end":9651.209,"text":"總共從2023、2024、2025總共加起來已經4千多億4千多億4千多億之後當然還是漲價電價還是漲在這樣的一個情況之下所以我們台灣"},{"start":9653.667,"end":9681.323,"text":"到底是不是能夠依現在的方案在生能源推動今天的報告都提出來了我們就講太陽光電台灣一個這麼小的地方然後要把所有的建築物上面都要有光電"},{"start":9683.22,"end":9710.402,"text":"台灣到底是以後長什麼樣子這個也要評估啊台灣的現況現在的再生農業的推動跟核市場是否要啟動核酸是不是要研議然後一開始我一開始就說你這個部長你所發想的"},{"start":9712.252,"end":9735.424,"text":"從菲律賓利電買過來就如同新加坡新加坡到澳洲更遠更遠所以也是一種方向但是要審慎評估因為台灣這麼小的地方光這個太陽能光電"},{"start":9742.423,"end":9768.866,"text":"農業關那個農業我們台灣是不是以後就不要農業這個都是一個一個是要去思考所以經濟部跟台電怎麼樣去好好的去評估去規劃在推動這麼這麼多年李漾峰店也是一樣"},{"start":9770.285,"end":9793.127,"text":"地熱 台灣就這麼小 地熱這邊提到要挖1至3公里深的淺層地熱能然後甚至3到6公里3到6公里要挖那到底會影響台灣"},{"start":9797.461,"end":9824.042,"text":"相關的這些專業到底有沒有投入有時候是這樣部長有時候一個行政院的政策確定之後很多的部會該是地質的專業的就避開了相關的水土保持山坡地保育"},{"start":9826.566,"end":9853.807,"text":"臺灣這只是一個這麼小的地方我們稱為寶島是不是承受得了現在的再生能源的一個方向這個是所以我才會說我沒有馬上火定你對那個"},{"start":9855.345,"end":9879.87,"text":"要從菲律賓購買力電這樣的一個方向除非你要回頭到你一開始你一上任之後包括這個國發會的主委都提到核四啊現在都退了我認為都要整體評估了部長"},{"start":9881.701,"end":9909.391,"text":"報告委員我想政府對核能政策是開放的那經濟部會來關注國家發展的這個情勢臺電公司也會持續關注未來各項科技的這個發展那包括新核能技術在內不會預設任何立場那麼對核電是不是現在的核電是不是要繼續使用那麼需要滿足三個條件第一個就是確保核能安全"},{"start":9910.792,"end":9913.254,"text":"2.核廢料可以處理3."},{"start":9913.254,"end":9926.367,"text":"社會有共識我相信這三個條件委員應該都會支持的我們不會反對任何的綠電任何的方式但是我追求的就是成本"},{"start":9927.288,"end":9945.732,"text":"追求的是成本讓我們台電所有的發電成本可以降低讓我們把電給全國的這個使用者在用的時候我們考慮他所以剛才有委員指教我說這個電價是不是可以不要再漲那電價可不可以漲不漲這個不是經濟部"},{"start":9948.813,"end":9951.075,"text":"因為這個整個政策政策的問題導致以我一開始講合適"},{"start":9979.011,"end":10005.757,"text":"三千多億三千多億因為核四停擺所以又撥補了四千多億你看多少的錢啊多麼多的錢照樣漲價不得不漲價是這樣的一個情形一再的漲 一直漲 一直漲"},{"start":10008.348,"end":10036.084,"text":"今年又漲已經知道要撥補了還漲這個就是說整個能源政策部長來自企業有時候該正確的評估之後當然這不是你的專業但是你可以召集相關的專業人員不只是"},{"start":10037.594,"end":10037.934,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":10068.049,"end":10073.727,"text":"謝謝主席 尤其經濟部的郭部長 台電曾董事長跟王總經理王總經理"},{"start":10079.775,"end":10104.786,"text":"部長,任何政策的形成,一定要經過事前整密的評估各項可能造成的影響,還有裁員部分那你這個所謂的海外電廠部分是你的構想嗎?你的想法?你的想法是可行的要變成具體的政策具體的政策之後才能去執行嗎?是的那您覺得您的構想,化成具體政策的可能性如何?"},{"start":10106.482,"end":10124.337,"text":"我必須要多方面的評估評估的階段大概要多久大概要半年所以半年發生政策你可能還要修法也不一定那還要招募商也不一定政策要執行還需要多久"},{"start":10125.912,"end":10154.001,"text":"這個部分報告委員我們不各種方法都可以啦目的就是說我們可以互相的sharing這樣的一個經驗互相可以這個買賣這樣的一個綠能大概這個是主要這概念很好但是我覺得是一個long term的一個計畫是的你要解決能源配比這是應該是急迫性的問題我們目前並沒有要解決目前的能源配比"},{"start":10154.451,"end":10173.644,"text":"如果你做一個長程的規劃我覺得是可行的但是你必須要經過詳細的評估相關的配套你都應該很完整的做公告所以我覺得任何的政府的政策要對外公告之前甚至構想的階段都要很整密的做一些評估那我想針對這個計畫台電的立場曾董事長對國務部長的這個構想"},{"start":10180.236,"end":10204.961,"text":"可行性如何?我跟委員報告就是說其實減碳這一個事情現在全世界都在設想各種的方法我知道我知道 我就具體而言聚焦在這個海外式電廠可行性如何?那個部長有提到就是說這個電廠的設置不見得是台電去設置那HVDC的技術確實全世界現在也在關注那我想說HVDC的技術成熟跟它的成本等等的我們可以來做分析"},{"start":10206.741,"end":10207.462,"text":"王總,你看這個技術面行得通嗎?"},{"start":10222.101,"end":10240.728,"text":"因為如果要從菲律賓送電過來一定要走直流的電不會是交流因為距離比較長那台澎海蘭是用交流那直流的話目前在歐洲大陸因為歐洲大陸事實上很多國家都是在海上所以這種海底電纜事實上已經是一個成熟的技術那現在重點是在於說"},{"start":10241.888,"end":10267.417,"text":"用什麼樣的規模然後成本這要做最適合的考量所以這個還需要一點時間來評估我覺得這個方向沒有錯我覺得部長也不需要道歉我覺得長期的方向是沒有錯的但是你要論述更完整更清楚做一個可行性的一個我們說在這個政策形成之前我們會做相關的評估評估之後具體的時程經費什麼都會做出一個很完整的一個對外說明"},{"start":10270.418,"end":10283.89,"text":"我想這題就到這邊地熱的部分我想台灣有這個條件但是我們地熱的潛能跟開發的比例嚴重失衡現在我們地熱發電量佔總體發電量0.01年我們目前定的目標是多少"},{"start":10291.772,"end":10308.964,"text":"我們現在大概運廠的地熱就是如果深層地熱運廠大概有40GW對它可以開採出來實際上可以用的大概接近9GW但是我們當初2025是定200MW20MW2025是定20MW2021202520MW所以"},{"start":10320.788,"end":10347.897,"text":"你目前你現在目前的這個開發進度達成率也目前蠻低的到2023所以怎麼樣能夠2025能夠達到20MW我請這個委員會署長跟你報告一下各位報告到目前已經有7點多個MW已經完成那目前中油還有其他民間業者建置的計畫還在執行當中我們預定到明年底應該可以達到20好你們有這個把握了"},{"start":10348.797,"end":10361.691,"text":"好 這個地熱這個是很重要 這個我覺得應該要加快另外我們評估的5月公告的這個地熱能探勘跟開發許可跟管理辦法這實際上成效如何來 署長是"},{"start":10365.538,"end":10374.65,"text":"主要就是針對過去地熱的開發都擅在各部會的相關法規包括你要探專有溫泉法有水利法等等你要這樣對這個業者相關的風險才有動機才有意願"},{"start":10380.546,"end":10404.803,"text":"所以在行政程序上我們後來透過修法之後把它變成單一窗口由經濟部這邊統一來做單一窗口的審查我的意思說你是不是由政府來主導初期的高風險的探勘有一個專責機構做一些分攤的這個風險分攤的機制在這個地熱的風險那第一個在專探那專探所以我們本部的地方中心"},{"start":10405.623,"end":10417.393,"text":"委員會針對我們幾個熱區會做相關的探專那我們就風險要降低啦要分攤啦他才有動力還有這個動機這個北高雄啊這個電網產生計畫我們曾經在2027啊2019有這個防災型的這個"},{"start":10424.338,"end":10432.7,"text":"這部分不能只在南高雄而已你那個電纜強韌計畫總統也很重視所以這個部分是不是也可以把北高雄的這個沿海地區的電纜地下化列為一個專案來處理"},{"start":10454.264,"end":10468.097,"text":"報告委員這一次我想這次山多爾颱風造成這個屏東高雄沿海的這個嚴重的這個災損那我們有這個經驗以後我們會特別就像委員所指導的這個沿海這個"},{"start":10470.045,"end":10492.455,"text":"電網的部分我們會慎重的我注意到好像沒有針對北高雄這部分有嗎有報告委員是有的OK好謝謝另外這個能源組這邊我們AI算力中心它是未來用電需求增加主要原因那是不是應該比照半導體要跟能源組提出能源使用說明書"},{"start":10493.689,"end":10493.849,"text":"新達電廠的燃氣"},{"start":10520.991,"end":10521.231,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10542.911,"end":10557.865,"text":"這會跳票嗎?不會跳票啦,因為我們現在已經點火了一號機已經點火了所以前幾天已經並聯在初步的這個做測試發電一號機是不是要供應給誰你知道供應給喬科跟南科捏"},{"start":10558.988,"end":10559.088,"text":"請謝易鳳委員質詢"},{"start":10594.855,"end":10618.951,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":10620.462,"end":10646.334,"text":"應該我瞭解應該是沒有開針沒有開針是不是還不會開針還不會開針所以明年還不會開針應該是2026年才會開針2026年才會開針是不是好那我想請問一下我們目前地熱現在所佔的開採的目標是不是已經達到了9G剛才的資訊"},{"start":10648.803,"end":10677.635,"text":"沒有?沒有?什麼時候會打到?呃...外務委員剛剛那個9GW那是我們講說可能的開採潛能目前這個都需要做相關的探專去探明到底哪個地方有多少地熱所以我們現在由地礦中心跟中油我們中油在今年會開專第一個深層井那這部分我們會去做更進一步的了解之後才知道到底有哪些可以開採出來那什麼時候可以打成?"},{"start":10679.124,"end":10694.891,"text":"所以這個要等到那個我們探專之後確定有多少潛能的時候才能去訂出比較具體的推動計畫因為那個是一個在地底下的一個我們講說運償量40GW能不能被開採出來發電這需要有一些科學的驗證"},{"start":10696.095,"end":10698.558,"text":"我們目前因為核電廠關掉那未來要怎麼樣子補這個核電的缺口"},{"start":10715.162,"end":10730.892,"text":"核電廠的缺口但是我們盡量在這個綠能上面來補足因為報告委員這個核電廠的核電他是潔淨能源我們現在目前比較遇到的問題實際上面的問題是2030年綠電的問題"},{"start":10734.912,"end":10747.572,"text":"那我現在跟委員報告就是2030年那麼這個所有的國外的廠商要的是綠電所以我第一個可以滿足他的綠電那核電他是潔淨的能源"},{"start":10748.697,"end":10766.024,"text":"他是為了approach這個2050年零碳的計畫所以我們必須要在2030年或者2032年希望把這個減碳的部分往前推所以這兩個命題稍微有點不是重複的"},{"start":10766.684,"end":10783.851,"text":"那我看到你們的那個電力的支援工序報告裡面顯示喔你們未來燃氣的機組要增加3092萬千瓦左右對不對是的那為什麼我剛還問你說碳費什麼時候開徵未來如果碳費開徵的話臺電要繳多少的碳費"},{"start":10792.606,"end":10821.575,"text":"報告委員臺電繳的碳費只是我自己場內用電還有陷入損失這塊需要繳碳費那至於說我發出來的電給這些工廠用的話那個碳費是由那些工廠來支付所以這些東西全部都要轉嫁到我們的製造業要轉嫁到中小企業是不是不是不是轉嫁而是因為他們在生產的過程當中"},{"start":10822.395,"end":10824.017,"text":"那如果未來就是碳費的開徵以後電價會不會大幅度的上漲"},{"start":10844.226,"end":10864.381,"text":"跟委員報告目前台電評估就是說開針之後我們在還沒有那個自主減量之前預估啦預估大概是15億那如果有自主減量那個部分還會大幅在下降要自主減量多少你們在2026年就是開針之前你們可以減量多少"},{"start":10865.46,"end":10892.243,"text":"這個部分其實台電在不管是燃煤的用量方面在過去這段時間都有蠻大幅度的這個進展那我這邊舉個例子來講那在以那個台中的我們就台中就好了那它的那個整個的二氧化碳的這個排放的部分二氧化碳排放的部分台中在103年是大概"},{"start":10893.968,"end":10895.488,"text":"那如果我們減煤或減碳的速度不如預期的時候會不會對電價有大幅度的影響"},{"start":10923.004,"end":10933.63,"text":"不會因為即使是現在最嚴峻的狀況就是一年15億15億所以分攤在每一度電大概是0.01元以下"},{"start":10935.066,"end":10959.02,"text":"我想要請教部長喔那你看到了過去主計單位他所預估我們今年物價上漲的這樣子的一個目標喔他其實沒有評估到電價會兩次的上漲那這一次電價兩次的上漲你們評估是0.03%左右是不是但是好你說"},{"start":10959.56,"end":10978.405,"text":"報告委員我們這一次的0.03%的影響主要是因為我們這次大概96%的用電戶是沒有漲的是動漲的所以我們漲的那個4%是工業用電而且它是成長的企業而且它是出口的企業"},{"start":10979.175,"end":10994.503,"text":"那會不會所以你認為這些企業不會影響到製造業嗎?以及對於基礎產業會影響到我們不管是十一住行你認為不會影響嗎?"},{"start":10994.943,"end":11019.557,"text":"我認為目前這個電價這個電價審議委員他們充分的考量所以做出這樣的一個決定但是對我們來講我們台電公司是不斷的精進不斷的在想辦法降低成本但是影響我們成本最大的因素是材料所以當我現在的觀察我們現在得到的資料來顯示未來的材料目前應該是一個高點"},{"start":11020.658,"end":11039.087,"text":"第二 影響的變數是匯率所以我也認為當然我不是中央銀行但是我們大概根據一般的財訊資料顯示我們的匯率應該是穩定的不會再往下扁這個大概是經濟學家他們的看法"},{"start":11039.997,"end":11053.854,"text":"那我如果說這兩個關鍵變數是固定穩定的話那再讓這個電價審議委員認為他應該就是在價格上面的判斷會更精準"},{"start":11054.38,"end":11069.825,"text":"好 那如果你將節能減 你們現在將節能減碳喔 就是新增為投資抵減的項目那你能不能爭取未來碳費用來補助中小企業購買ASCO的這個服務呢"},{"start":11070.715,"end":11098.205,"text":"報告委員,未來的ESCO我們有兩個做法一個做法就是由經濟部聘請專家然後這些專家去審視完了以後請這個ESCO執行的業者來幫這些中小微企業來落實中小微企業他們我們現在的那個條例有改變了在處理ESCO這個金額他可以"},{"start":11099.002,"end":11099.022,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11132.511,"end":11156.223,"text":"請陳昌明委員質詢首先有請我們郭部長請郭部長郭部長我看您的資料"},{"start":11160.392,"end":11180.164,"text":"在能源配比的現況那在2023年經濟部的報告裡面花電佔的比例你的南美是42.2但是台電的報告是34.1在南區的方面"},{"start":11181.52,"end":11200.016,"text":"李經濟部的報告是39.5臺電的報告是44.1那核能差的都也不大差了0.7%再生能源差了4%阿你我現在想不到的南美跟南汽兩個報告怎麼會不一樣"},{"start":11201.677,"end":11209.58,"text":"報告委員我請曾董事長來跟您做個詳細的報告不要詳細我大概了解一下詳細講我時間都跟您講完就沒辦法"},{"start":11214.346,"end":11225.149,"text":"那個我們民間有很多自用發電設備,能源署的統計是全部,臺電公司只報告臺電,那我們民間的發電比較多還是燃煤,但臺電已經先開始。"},{"start":11238.663,"end":11255.558,"text":"好 老闆開心了 是啊 第一次的問題 我就請教部長 是我們的中鋼公司經濟部管得到嗎它是我們的這個 呃 辦公事業部 監督得到嗎可以 公務管理"},{"start":11261.662,"end":11285.011,"text":"阿你有沒有能力管到中鋼公司阿部長你不要叫國營私業AAMAAM有沒有能力啦我給他提這個問題我看這個問題中鋼公司是非常優秀的公司但是他在我們台灣的離岸風力裡面表現非常失敗增資64億6年把他虧損"},{"start":11288.444,"end":11306.072,"text":"第一次中鋼30億,第二次的增資是包括國家發展委員會、中鋼國、中鋼機械公司、中鋼……而且我看他寫出來的文章,我還很遺憾,好像他委屈很多"},{"start":11307.557,"end":11322.625,"text":"阿北部的那私製鋼鐵是私人的公司現在突然膨脹的很大你中鋼公司是代表國家你離岸婚禮的自治力沒有辦法成功該要學的"},{"start":11323.737,"end":11327.198,"text":"我會要你們的報告也會要說國貨會提出這個報告這是很壞的現象"},{"start":11344.656,"end":11354.596,"text":"尤其中央公司是南部的私立團體聽說那裏面很複雜一般人都不敢去碰不敢去摸啊看你這裏面有沒有氣泡啊"},{"start":11356.482,"end":11382.493,"text":"我會向委員請教如何來督導這個中鋼像我 我不敢 我沒那麼厲害你做企業的人你更厲害但是一些消息員工你才知道這樣好不好好 謝謝 謝謝保證你人家沿途工會又開始會出帶著荷艾的連你那看也不錯我向你請教你這個老委員你一直這樣不支持以公務預算來貼補台電"},{"start":11384.96,"end":11393.467,"text":"但是你跟北匯分你說立法院不支持波普的話將調漲電價來應用虧損你跟他本來是支持說到這個時候應該會合我只能怪你說"},{"start":11400.287,"end":11423.702,"text":"我姓朱白阿你不要那個輝和家園是民進黨姓朱白你亂講你習得來吃雞湯飯你都不想理阿我告訴你這個狀態的恐怖就在這個地方你有沒有生同感受是的完全感同身受我剛剛看到報紙說你要去菲律賓齁我不知道種田開電廠"},{"start":11426.197,"end":11441.245,"text":"說你在發想,發想你一出來做生意企業的精神就常常要有夢想,常常有發想。習門就開始跟你修理,但是我保證你要學語,理想是很豐滿的。"},{"start":11443.459,"end":11466.406,"text":"現實是很骨感我問你菲律賓可靠不可靠你常常說第4會聯盟雖然高性命你不要做得那麼偉大你太多台灣這隊你搞不好我們就叫你英雄啊我是很良心跟你建議的你那個電送過來各方面我想了很多阿菲律賓的狀況你曉得嘛"},{"start":11468.561,"end":11472.125,"text":"你當部長要謹慎一點再來,你要調整今年補月一千億,明年一千億,我現在送給你聽"},{"start":11493.096,"end":11506.928,"text":"連台電公司都很優秀,就是被政策害死。蔡英文當總統時連續動漲7次,沒人這樣去做啦,要討好百姓,今天就有夠了,頂不住了。換你來當代罪羔羊。"},{"start":11517.21,"end":11519.051,"text":"117年你們調漲8.4%電能價調漲8.4%您跟我們報告一年可以收291億113年3月調漲11%您說可以增加628億"},{"start":11538.783,"end":11543.464,"text":"113年9月當然現在調漲的時間比較少調漲12.5在明年可以增加750億我記得你們幫我們報告好像今年這樣調漲在今年會加123次的調漲增加台電的電價收費1660%再來"},{"start":11566.294,"end":11574.802,"text":"您在這裡增資2500億,以後給予您500億,總共這裡大約3千億。現在3千億給您增加就調漲1668億,總共有4,680億,你們負債才4,600億而已,表示你們還有盈餘。"},{"start":11592.651,"end":11599.895,"text":"臺電真的很辛苦你們逼得我這樣把你生來生去雖然我很同情但是對臺電我仍然要了解這樣怎麼會這樣你們這樣我給你算了一共如果包括條長的價格包括政府的補貼運動中"},{"start":11622.059,"end":11636.25,"text":"包括這兩千億,還沒過這兩千億六千、六百、六十百億,六六花,台電雜花啊你再試穿一下,你要先穩住呢扣掉四千六,還有兩千億啊"},{"start":11638.51,"end":11659.101,"text":"報告委員 這個部分是這樣子啦這個是材料企業啦材料企業身份提高啦然後我們大概主要撥補還是因為我們對民生的電價我們是完全動長的所以民生的身份三個月我們都不會說話你如果說一個小部分的再繼續你能夠說到哪裡但是你要說的幾點喔"},{"start":11664.434,"end":11674.035,"text":"每一次你們都講成本上漲、原材料上漲但是你們報告裡面說現在原材料已經回歸到一般正常的狀況"},{"start":11675.188,"end":11688.652,"text":"是這幾天阿拉伯在打仗才升高的啦沒有回來啦平均的材料成本我們不是某一個點的材料成本而是全年平均的材料成本"},{"start":11708.302,"end":11709.463,"text":"主席有請郭智慧部長請郭部長"},{"start":11741.465,"end":11761.692,"text":"委員好 郭部長好 郭部長你最近的言論受到外界許多的矚目對菲律賓的重力電輸入台灣的方式我個人其實是深表贊同如果能夠再搭配這一個部分的半導體低階的半導體的輸出甚至科學園區的輸出減少台灣內部的用電負擔"},{"start":11766.465,"end":11793.113,"text":"我覺得從這個戰略佈局來看的話應該是有一個通盤的經濟安全保障的概念吧,部長是,報告委員,我想我這個在談這個議題的時候,這個說話不夠精準這一點造成大家的這個誤會,非常的抱歉部長,你不用跟我抱歉我認為這個構想其實是值得討論的是值得討論的,我是肯定的不用抱歉,真的"},{"start":11793.868,"end":11820.663,"text":"我覺得站在一個部長裡頭有一個宏觀的思考是正確的而且呢你如果有搭配一些的作為的話那是更好譬如講有一部分的情況底下在我們沒有辦法負載的這個產業當中可以建立一個科技外交然後同時部分的低階的產業的輸出可以達到全球的分工沒有影響到本地的這個產業競爭那何樂不為本來就是共享經濟不是嗎是謝謝委員"},{"start":11822.994,"end":11848.434,"text":"對 然後部長我覺得你這個部分可以再深再進一步去思考一下更完整的時候我們再推出來好不好那相對於國內來說前兩 上個禮拜我本席在跟你質詢的問題當中我坐在的你在新建這個天然氣發電廠的部分用自給率的部分本席無法贊同如果是用自給率的部分最低的話就是台北市那應該從台北市開始建才對啊不是嗎"},{"start":11849.415,"end":11877.876,"text":"而且本席調出來我不曉得你們經濟部哪一位是自己大做主張明明在電業登記規則當中你要登記電業要簽PPA的部分要有五項規定喔電業登記規則裡頭第三條裡頭寫得很清楚結果呢你們像大豬大魚啊就給他放寬成三項就可以了簽了PPA之後呢好像這個業者呢就一直往前衝"},{"start":11878.991,"end":11905.307,"text":"也就造成現在這個爭議一個很重要的源頭我慎重的再度的提醒這個部長不要重蹈天然氣只有KPI的這個覆測會引起更多的民怨你以後到時候天然氣你更難推動部長你有沒有像剛剛有些委員質詢的感同身受我是不是可以請這個能源署長不要我不要請他回答這都是KPI小組的啦"},{"start":11907.268,"end":11922.075,"text":"我是說你可能還搞不清楚狀況阿我就提醒你阿 下面的人在害你阿他在害我們阿 怎麼可以亂設這要達到標準以後他們升官了 結果倒楣的是你跟我"},{"start":11931.064,"end":11952.198,"text":"老實講大部分的天然氣都是工業用電75%一般的民眾他其實用電只有佔25%以台南來說就你要叫一般的生活在那邊來承擔這不公平嘛那以前的自給率比較高的部分呢那是什麼時代相對是威權的時代啊現在要蓋一個電廠有那麼容易嗎"},{"start":11953.382,"end":11978.938,"text":"是不是?部長所以說呢再來說的話以台南的市集率最近又增加了深壩二期也開始啟動了而且增加了1.1GW這種情況底下他的整個能源承擔沒有增加嗎?更何況原來的水庫高雄都沒有水庫全部的水庫都在台南水的支援也是一種負擔啊太陽能七股也是啊也是一種負擔啊不是嗎?"},{"start":11980.253,"end":11998.668,"text":"都負擔那麼多了更何況再講白一點以興達發電廠距離台南市政府14公里距離高雄市政府40公里含怪了整個康貴範圍30公里台南沒有分攤到這一個能源的負擔嗎也有啊誰在誤導你你知道嗎誰在誤導你是左邊右邊是誰前面還是後面"},{"start":12008.376,"end":12037.426,"text":"部長是你不要被害死還不曉得啊是這業務的狀況你要徹底的去掌握啊所以部長依照這些整個規則你應該恢復到原來的電業登記的這些登記規則的第三條沒有五個不能有簽PPA你要給那個能源署說你要跟台電說是誰製作主張的是誰大廚大爺你去查清楚造成民間的困擾"},{"start":12039.704,"end":12065.001,"text":"已經叫他退了還在重來好像非見不可有那麼大的企圖嗎背後有什麼原因你去調查清楚是不是有不可告人的秘密哪有這種事情而且還不只一個後面還有一個寶村都沒有地方跑了是不是你調來台南不可是不是是誰指示的"},{"start":12066.26,"end":12094.085,"text":"部長 你去查清楚而且你也不要害那些業者跟著你傻傻的一直衝要有退場機制現在業者之所以不願意退場還會死灰復燃的原因就是有一筆違約金在那邊啦那一筆違約金是誰讓他掉入那個陷阱的就是五變成三個規則嘛 到底是誰嘛有沒有退場機制嘛所以說這個東西你要了解清楚啦"},{"start":12095.274,"end":12095.794,"text":"請賴思寶委員質詢"},{"start":12124.612,"end":12129.454,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部的郭部長請郭部長委員好部長你好這個Google在美國他要跟和平的新創公司Keros Power前幾天宣布"},{"start":12151.633,"end":12179.049,"text":"他已經承諾要購買這家公司建造的7座的SMR這事你知道嗎?您是說Google要用SMR?對,他要跟這家公司買7座的SMR是,報告委員,我們都有在關注新的這個能源技術"},{"start":12180.478,"end":12192.075,"text":"是 那我現在問你啊你今天今天這個有頭版條好幾個媒體頭版條叫你說要在國外設綠電廠這個其實就凸顯一個事情嘛"},{"start":12196.272,"end":12219.39,"text":"大家馬上直覺就想到經濟部長已經看到了經濟部長不是董事長而已看到了缺電嘛那因為來講我就問你如果台灣Data Center一些資料中心有需要的話你要不要提供協助幫他們來想辦法也可以引進SMO謝謝委員我想政府對核能政策是開放的"},{"start":12225.762,"end":12237.015,"text":"那麼經濟部除了關注國家的發展情勢台電公司也持續在關注未來各項科技的發展請你回答我你要不要提供協助我們會在這個三個條件之下"},{"start":12240.208,"end":12240.949,"text":"講這個東西都給說的"},{"start":12270.492,"end":12288.269,"text":"部長 原來你當經濟部長外界是高度期待的覺得說一個企業界董事長很瞭解企業的經營來當經濟部長很好 有guts甚至於大家會有過有一點多的期待台灣電不夠啊"},{"start":12289.366,"end":12300.78,"text":"你現在講去菲律賓去日本去哪裡那個電都貴啊核電最便宜啊大家對你有一個現在發現是不切實際的幻想以為國部長來了會解套這個重啟"},{"start":12304.71,"end":12322.21,"text":"河河山研議結果突然發現不是啊 國資會部長就想當官等於出賣自己的靈魂感冠這些都不要了 就是要想當官你可以看啊 前幾天我在總時勤的時候你都不來啊 這個這熊本"},{"start":12323.462,"end":12335.856,"text":"我們都很清楚那些媒體都把你講出來講得你來看一下人家講的我都聽你難看了今天如果我是你的話被人家這樣修理到說你是回訪嘛對不對去熊本是不是回訪"},{"start":12337.842,"end":12353.847,"text":"報告這個委員我去熊本是幫助我們台灣到日本投資的廠商我替他們爭取更大的這個啊投資的這個福利那個你需要一定跨禮拜二跟禮拜五嗎這兩天都不來禮拜二到禮拜五這個東西秒數國會啊"},{"start":12355.527,"end":12384.515,"text":"因為我在熊本談完了以後我要到東京去談在日本其他的這個投資的要件兩個月以前兩個月以前難道你不知道立法院要總諮詢嗎我們那個總諮詢那個時候我們沒有確定總諮詢在那個禮拜所以我有請假我是有請假的我請假也經過我的院長同意也經過立法院院長同意的所以就院長替你被罵啊"},{"start":12385.526,"end":12408.13,"text":"那非常抱歉這個事情我們也不知道說那這個大宴會那麼時候在開會但是我確實是為了我們國家我們所有台灣的廠商在日本投資我再爭取讓他在日本的投資可以得到更好的這個福利暑假之後什麼時候開議難道你不知道嗎都是9月20號左右對但是報告委員日本來講的話我是與時俱進"},{"start":12412.051,"end":12438.008,"text":"我要強調一個部長阿來因為我時間快到了你不要一直吵喔部長我告訴你不要只想當官你要當官可以這麼愛當官你就好好地接受監督報告委員我不會想當官阿不會想當官你怎麼會我當官有什麼對我有什麼好處是啊有什麼好處人家來叫我妹妹啊但是我今天來就是因為有一個使命我必須要利用我的專業讓我的經濟環境做得更好"},{"start":12440.41,"end":12440.83,"text":"臺灣有幾條的海底電纜"},{"start":12466.01,"end":12470.236,"text":"臺灣的海底電纜跟我這個命題沒有關係報告委員我這個海底電纜不是臺灣要來做的臺灣現在也不管誰做了臺灣有4條"},{"start":12481.714,"end":12501.945,"text":"這個功能是不一樣的啊來來來你給我扯離開話題了齁我告訴你10條最近5年36次的故障任何原因都可能海船的問題動物的問題都可能撞啊我在做的那個討論跟你現在在指教的這個部分是不一樣的命題報告委員你現在給我扯贏了齁我先告訴你"},{"start":12504.281,"end":12530.848,"text":"我現在告訴你你如果要在外界高度質疑喔是不是已經有這個人員的廠商跑去菲律賓設廠了所以你啊搭他的船搭他的路這樣走自己說很難聽的部長啊這個大概是這個我講話不夠精準啦齁那但是事實上都不是各位所想像的那個情境"},{"start":12532.06,"end":12558.394,"text":"那你告訴我們因為我時間到了我不要耽誤其他委員時間你告訴我當初的想法是什麼有突然冒出來這個東西想法就是我想我們現在在最近的看到這個新加坡從澳洲買綠電透過海嵐買了綠電4300公里英國買綠電透過非洲的國家買綠電4000公里所以那麼遠都可以買到了那你為什麼不從澎湖蓋個綠電廠從澎湖過來"},{"start":12560.458,"end":12562.879,"text":"你沒有道歉你沒有道歉"},{"start":12588.41,"end":12613.91,"text":"阿我剛才有在跟很多的委員都道歉阿都道歉了嘛所以媒體沒有錯我在這邊也跟委員您道歉照著您的誤會沒有我不希望你道歉我希望你把事情做好是謝謝現在感覺就是你事情沒有做好是一說就是我沒有謹言慎行這一點我非常抱歉一說就錯阿錯了就甩鍋就是這樣不可能唉真悲哀啦謝謝委員"},{"start":12621.97,"end":12622.291,"text":"請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":12643.001,"end":12663.923,"text":"委員好部長好我終於見到你了因為呢本席在總質詢的時候您剛好又請假那一天其實本席準備了很多跟經濟部有關係的議題但是沒有辦法來質詢我覺得真的非常遺憾那當然你已經一再的說明過了為什麼要就是請假那也是經過準價這個本席都沒有意見但是我必須要講就是說今天開議"},{"start":12664.864,"end":12693.446,"text":"像我們身為委員我們也不會知道究竟是哪一天開議但我們會去推算在那個前後其實我們不太敢去排其他的事情因為總諮詢開議這個是最重要的事情這第一個那第二個呢我想部長其實你上任大概4個多月你就這個出訪有4次了那美國一次日本也去了3次那這一次去呢您去這個3次不管是參加什麼台日科學對談啦也發表演說啦或者是這個參訪日本生技半導體廠商等等"},{"start":12694.667,"end":12719.309,"text":"呃..."},{"start":12719.469,"end":12736.056,"text":"如果大家同意我是會做下去這不是大家同不同意還是要看你的表現嘛對不對但是我是非常期許跟祝福因此要提醒部長之後您可能還會經歷很多個總諮詢麻煩以後在總諮詢之後請不要請假好嗎因為經濟部是非常重要的一個部會喔可以"},{"start":12736.756,"end":12752.927,"text":"那再來您剛也說到這次去日本最主要是要去協助我們台灣的廠商在日本投資不管是創造更好的條件啦解決一些投資障礙啦或者是他的一些交通規劃人才培育等等都是您這次回來做的一個解釋跟說明嘛那不過換句話說"},{"start":12754.988,"end":12779.719,"text":"換句話說其實你是不是就等於是協助日本對台進行半導體廠商招商可以這麼講嘛日本對我們來招商我們的廠商去了那你過去做了一些協助那我想請教就是這次您去在吸引日本廠商來台灣投資的部分有沒有成績這第一個第二個您剛剛所說的要協助我們台灣的廠商在那個地方有什麼具體成效那第三個"},{"start":12780.259,"end":12797.41,"text":"我們所謂的台商現在在那個地方那麼這一次我們是有增加訂單還是有什麼樣的一個成果我想30秒報告委員我去這一趟並不是只有半導體的這件事情我們有談其他的產業那我跟您報告一個產業我這次去主要談的是無人機的產業"},{"start":12805.831,"end":12813.193,"text":"那麼這無人機的產業大概在2028年一年在日本有2000億台幣的這個市場那我談下來的結果就是這個2000億的市場將跟我們台灣的這個業者互相合作"},{"start":12821.536,"end":12836.29,"text":"然後他們因為我們台灣在這個製造上面我們這個mass production比較厲害我們大量生產部長我想所以日本他們會給我們這個你現在在說明就是說我們還要去談了一個這個無人機的雙方的合作嘛那我覺得這都是好事情啦"},{"start":12836.971,"end":12850.824,"text":"那但是重點就是說那除了日本其實可以幫我們的半導體產業這個護國神山也好啦或者是其他的相關人才啦這個資源啦我們都到日本去投資重點是就像您剛剛說互相嘛對我們台灣到底有什麼幫助"},{"start":12852.185,"end":12875.897,"text":"我想這個是最重要的重點那同時我也要提醒這一次部長懷悠提到說我們在那裡也希望能夠培育人才不過我是覺得我們的培育的人才真的要為台灣所用部長來自於業界非常知道我們自己半導體也好或者是我們這些AI這樣這個理工科技人才也是人才荒所以我們怎麼樣讓我們台灣自己有這個人才甚至於留在這這是重要重點好嗎"},{"start":12876.938,"end":12892.856,"text":"我們在經濟部有一個2加4的計畫也就是說讓國外的人才來台灣學習兩年然後留在台灣的產業工作四年四年以後換另外一個身份繼續為台灣的企業打拚部長我想就是留住人才這個重點"},{"start":12894.278,"end":12894.978,"text":"臺電成立外部停跳電事故調查委員會"},{"start":12910.083,"end":12928.888,"text":"因為之前我們大規模小規模跳電停電無數次了每一次你們端出來理由尤其是在本席的選區以及我們今天主席的選區桃園那個理由真的是笑掉人的大牙甚至有很多人是完全不相信所以我想到底實際是怎麼樣我不予置評我不會去講說你說的意思是謊話但是"},{"start":12930.188,"end":12952.094,"text":"你就成立一個外部停跳電事故調查委員會嘛這是一個公正第三方而且之前次長也說要成立但是本席看到你們現在僅僅就是在桃園跟我們的這個台電跟桃園市政府成立了一個桃園電力穩定專案小組我跟你講第一個這非常的弱第二個也不是當時本席所說要成立的那這個部分的話應該後面怎麼做"},{"start":12953.141,"end":12977.45,"text":"報告委員 我想這個我們實際上是有在做了 台電是有持續在做只是沒有來跟委員做一個比較詳細的報告現在停調電不是只有桃園喔所以本席要求你成立這個外部停調電事故調查委員會這麼公正的第三方那有公正的第三方出來 那將來講出來的理由我們也能相信嘛所以這個調查委員會什麼時候會成立呢"},{"start":12977.93,"end":12992.859,"text":"我們現在其實是有跟地方政府在合作啦我們基本上希望把那個可能跳電的紅區都圈出來我們現在台電已經都圈好了那麼我們勢必要在這個半年內把它全部的消除"},{"start":12993.399,"end":12995.341,"text":"但是有一些我們需要委員來回答我們"},{"start":13011.897,"end":13016.141,"text":"最後再一分鐘我們桃園我們要這個成立大型數據中心一律不合公點因為我們在北區但你給我們桃園什麼我想相關的這些空污啊污染啊尤其是SRF我特別今天在這裡提我想我們的召委我們主席也很關心這件事情"},{"start":13034.48,"end":13057.671,"text":"一開始桃園市政府為什麼會同意因為你經濟部給了推薦函那我們後來要撤銷的時候你經濟部曾經說過你會尊重桃園市政府但是顯然你沒有尊重桃園市政府啊所以我們現在要二次撤銷今天本席在這邊來請教部長對於桃園市政府SRF的二度撤銷入園那你怎麼看你支持桃園市政府的二度撤銷嗎我請教部長"},{"start":13060.841,"end":13087.197,"text":"這個 我想地方政府跟業者的這個合法行為啦 我想經濟部都支持那 任何開發的行為都希望業者沒有 部長 請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子好嗎請你抬頭看著我 不要看稿子是對 在我們桃園市政府二度撤銷3家SRF廠商入園許可這件事情你要怎麼處理 你的態度是什麼我的部長 對不起 後面那位請你離開"},{"start":13088.851,"end":13117.81,"text":"我想大家如果住在合法的情境我想就是按照這個規定的程序來進行什麼是規定的程序就是法定的程序什麼是法定的程序在這件事情上就是讓業者向這個台灣市政府申請所以台灣市政府就不同意啊台灣市政府現在是不同意的我想部長我要提醒你一件事情這件事情現在國外的投資者充分的關心這個命題"},{"start":13119.211,"end":13127.913,"text":"國外的投資者充分的關心我們就必須要屈從嗎?部長您講的我也同意但是這件事情不要給我討論市政府扣帽子當初如果不是經濟部推薦那我們不會同意但是呢你今天又還沒有gas在選舉前把這個推薦還收回去了我必須要提醒經濟部喔"},{"start":13141.357,"end":13168.793,"text":"今天SRF的廠商我不知道是要迫於就是給這個桃園市政府壓力還是有別的想法那現在也提出要國賠這個國賠未必是針對桃園市政府我想經濟部有相當的責任我們希望在會後找一個時間部長能夠跟本席我們好好討論一下關於桃園的SRF這個部分我們六位立委都非常關心那我們希望找一個時間部長能夠跟我們好好的來談一談我們後續怎麼尊重桃園市政府怎麼善後這個議題可以嗎"},{"start":13171.147,"end":13171.627,"text":"接下來請蔡議員執行"},{"start":13208.48,"end":13211.801,"text":"我們是不是有請這個部長以及我們台電公司部長因為今天大家都在討論這個菲律賓這個呂宋的這個經濟這個經濟計畫"},{"start":13231.581,"end":13260.379,"text":"那就你早上的說法說因為這是一個論壇嘛那是在針對全世界這些民主國家大家針對呂宋的一個經濟人道這樣的一個計畫那我想保證我用我的質詢給你比較多時間說那這樣的一個經濟人道他主要是針對哪些公共建設也好或者是哪些的經濟發展你也可以完整的說明一下嗎"},{"start":13260.819,"end":13280.499,"text":"好 我跟委員報告這個是今年的4月這個美國總統跟這個日本的首相還有菲律賓的總統在美國他們討論出來要發展這個菲律賓北呂宋的這個部分那這個案子就是他叫做呂宋經濟狼帶這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13283.526,"end":13298.163,"text":"這我有兩個命題把它併在一起這個就是一個議題然後這個裡面有決定讓日本去做這個機場做軍港然後從馬尼拉要拉一條火車拉一條鐵軌拉到北呂宋"},{"start":13301.633,"end":13315.043,"text":"那麼在這個情況之下我們當然這個是日本美國跟菲律賓之間的協定因為我們是這個民主同盟所以有另外一組在民主同盟在討論討論在論壇說過去我們的綠色能源因為2050年這個"},{"start":13322.789,"end":13340.008,"text":"減碳這個要零碳的這樣的一個目標那希望說這個同盟的大家可以互相支援互相來support所以你這樣說就是說大家去討論到了另外一個命題就是減碳的議題所以才有討論到債費率因為齁"},{"start":13341.974,"end":13357.782,"text":"部長雖然說前幾個質詢大家都站在批判的角度但是我覺得這個是一個很大的如果我們先不要說經濟部的角度以現在如果有這樣的一個計畫這個以台灣的很多業者那是一個很大的事"},{"start":13359.683,"end":13377.67,"text":"很大的商機大家可以去那邊去投入不管是說好你說有些公共建設也好或者是投入綠電綠電也不只太陽能啊風電也是啊那台灣這幾年我們在做風電後我們在推動國產化事實上也有相對的一些成長跟經驗嘛這個全國這次尤其這個三奪爾還"},{"start":13383.432,"end":13384.354,"text":"還在台灣這個盤繞這麼久的時間我看我們的風電我看起來應該是都還好吧"},{"start":13393.803,"end":13407.447,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的風電不管是陸域風電或者是這個海域的都還不錯都沒有看到有一些那個風損的部分沒有風損嘛 颱風天應該還創紀錄發電量還有創紀錄我跟委員報告這個剛才在講的這個呂宋的這個計畫裡面我們可以看得出來我們從一些學者的研究"},{"start":13419.47,"end":13429.101,"text":"如果在呂壯那邊來蓋風電或者是蓋太陽能光電因為他地方夠大所以他的成本會往下降"},{"start":13429.793,"end":13443.662,"text":"那麼往下降我當然就是我們在學者討論啊在論壇上面討論我們都希望說我認為你委員齁你就是有一個比較超前啦就是說你要怎麼把那些電油回來台灣是最終那些沒有電油回來台灣有企業要在那買就買就好了我買電不可以還是說企業對啊人家企業人家的企業要買電讓他們自己去發電對不對至少"},{"start":13451.147,"end":13453.749,"text":"我看到的是說你參加這樣一個論壇那這個論壇是現在民主同盟現在在呂宋的這個經濟狼帶的計畫台灣當然有機會我們參與嘛我們介紹我們台灣優良的廠商到這個呂宋那邊去投入他們的計畫"},{"start":13468.281,"end":13491.346,"text":"這個有什麼不對阿是謝謝謝謝委員對阿對阿我們就是台灣的企業全出於世界阿這個部長我覺得你這個做事你去參加這個論壇然後你有你的想法你故意就是說要電郵回來主要讓人家跟你連結說喔這個是因為台灣我們的綠電不足我們要補足我們的排碳係數阿所以才會有你去廢墟濱設電廠我感覺是這個事情你讓人誤會然後讓人連結起來"},{"start":13498.027,"end":13519.563,"text":"所以我覺得這件事部長你就對外解釋清楚可是你去參加了這樣的一個論壇那你看到了現在全世界要來投資整個呂宋的經濟狼帶包括能源選項也是一個很大的一個商機所以你覺得台灣這一步我們應該要出我們的手上去讓他走出去那你怎麼說不對"},{"start":13525.521,"end":13541.947,"text":"謝謝委員希望增加台灣廠商的競爭力從國內不是只有考慮國內的市場應該要考慮國際的市場在上一次我們的經濟委員會的時候那台積電的這個劉德英董事長也在分享台積電成功的模式台積電一開始"},{"start":13543.584,"end":13561.97,"text":"就看的是全球的市場而不是只看台灣的市場所以今天可以讓台積電可以避離全世界可以在世界成為我們台灣的護國神山主要他的定位就是台積電是服務全球的這個市場所以我也希望我們台灣的企業不是只有這個國內的這個市場"},{"start":13563.871,"end":13587.959,"text":"而幫助他們加強國際競爭力對你身為我們的部長經濟部長所以你除了要保護台灣我們的技術不要外流之外你就是應該要把台灣的產業然後跟世界可以有更多的對接是的我希望我們賴總統我們卓院長然後信任你然後讓你當任經濟部長也是希望借用你這樣的強才"},{"start":13589.232,"end":13593.036,"text":"是謝謝所以我會覺得這件事你有說明事實上我覺得這個呂宋論壇的這個經濟的計劃經濟計劃真的好你也要介紹給鄉下讓他們去走"},{"start":13606.05,"end":13631.624,"text":"我會繼續把這個論壇的範圍放大跟國內的學者專家我們繼續討論也許我們未必只能做第一名如果他們也要坐機場他們機場有什麼或者他們要拉他們的軌道到馬尼拉這個如果台灣有可以配合的廠商也要讓他們有機會去加入沒有錯這麼大的一個就是離台灣相對比較近的地方對"},{"start":13633.305,"end":13659.134,"text":"這個我覺得都是要去突破的讓台灣走到國際然後第二個我想跟部長再討論一下就是說我們現在在台電公司因為他們有所謂排碳係數的一個壓力這個排碳係數的壓力就變成台電他事實上是沒有辦法去賣這個純綠電所以變得說台電的排碳係數始終是很高那這個也是台電"},{"start":13660.234,"end":13679.914,"text":"承擔了這麼多壓力然後包括台電現在阿愛阿愛需要一些特別預算的一些協助阿所以我現在意思是說你要怎麼部長你在任內你有什麼方向可以讓整個台電他的排蛋係數是下降的"},{"start":13680.535,"end":13697.396,"text":"阿或者是這樣的一個排碳係數可以藉由台電來賣綠電的方式然後來分散他的壓力這部分我們經濟部有什麼做法嗎我想台電他是這個樣子根據這個市場的需求大概企業比較希望這個低碳的企業"},{"start":13698.217,"end":13714.816,"text":"那我們大概在企業要低碳啊企業是低碳可是企業卻沒有自己去努力做好低碳的事情我們現在在幫助企業深度節能來降低他的這個排碳係數那一方面我們在發電的部分橋接用這個部長現在的問題就是說"},{"start":13717.559,"end":13741.413,"text":"我們協助企業降低它的排碳係數但是它的排碳係數最後都跑回來台電由台電來吸收企業的排碳係數所以台電就會有這樣這一層的負擔那這部分有可能我們用低碳的這個電力給它低碳就是我們用這個天然氣的發電來取代這個煤炭的"},{"start":13742.785,"end":13762.339,"text":"天然氣取代煤炭是一個方式啦那當然綠電也是一個方式可是重點就是回到了台電就變成混在一起就變成灰電了嘛就不是所謂的綠電了所以你們台電在這部分你們沒有把你們的綠電跟你們台電自己其他火力發電"},{"start":13763.521,"end":13773.115,"text":"把它做一個很清楚的一個區隔你們都是混在一起賣的所以對企業而言對企業而言它的排碳你的排碳係數還是在你台電這一段啊"},{"start":13774.281,"end":13794.889,"text":"跟委員報告其實部長跟我們只是如何把那個綠電用在最對的地方所以我們在規劃那個電力的產品在銷售的方面在考慮就是看會分倉的電力分倉的概念做一些低碳電力賣給企業但是價格會高一點講到我們台電的工作我們現在嘉義這邊包括我們馬籌澳的"},{"start":13799.636,"end":13800.398,"text":"這個變電所馬酬厚以及我們康榮壽變電所的工程"},{"start":13809.462,"end":13832.439,"text":"請這個進度一定要盯緊我們現在在加速應該是如期完成包括因為我知道說現在我們在沿海的電纜線的一個推動事實上也是有遇到一些阻力不過我覺得台電應該要拿出更大的誠意跟鄉親溝通然後我們可以當然我站在外面我也是要協助你們去溝通不過我想"},{"start":13832.819,"end":13833.079,"text":"現在休息到1點繼續開會"},{"start":13873.541,"end":13873.841,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13922.82,"end":13923.1,"text":"本集完結"},{"start":16094.412,"end":16095.733,"text":"主席謝謝我們請經濟部國部長請國部長"},{"start":16122.996,"end":16123.276,"text":"國電力是國力,這你認同嗎?"},{"start":16145.476,"end":16166.386,"text":"認同認同好那如果說我們未來要針對相關的這些電是不是在我們台灣本地生產不是在台灣本地來發電而是要由外部來做這樣的一個運輸的話你覺得先決條件是不是就會變成是這個命脈發電命脈掌握在別人的一個土地身上"},{"start":16167.472,"end":16194.256,"text":"到時候的國際情勢任何的相關的國際環境會不會更加的一個變化這不是商業模式說我簽一紙公文簽一紙合約就可以確保供電無語提過這樣子的一個構想想法有沒有找我們國安單位這邊來討論看看或是說請教國安單位意見還沒有還沒有所以這完全就是就像你講的快人快語"},{"start":16195.808,"end":16196.289,"text":"不可能為什麼"},{"start":16218.462,"end":16243.662,"text":"因為這完全是你天馬行空的想法沒有跟任何人討論過我跟委員報告這個是這樣子在全球現在這個綠電都是大家關心的命題那麼我們可以看到這個新加坡他從澳洲要買這個綠電太陽能綠電那從澳洲到新加坡大概4300公里"},{"start":16245.423,"end":16270.776,"text":"現在還是持續在討論但是這是一個事實第二個英國英國從非洲透過4000公里他也是要再買綠電也就是說有綠電生產的國家有這個條件但他綠電的發電成本就非常的低所以透過這個海覽的方式其實這個是我們看到一個新的事實"},{"start":16272.079,"end":16297.51,"text":"那我在講這個事情的時候其實是因為這個民主同盟也非常關心這樣子的一個命題因為將來2050年要淨零減碳所以大家為了快一點讓綠能都上來的時候因為綠能其實這個只要經濟規模我想委員非常清楚只要經濟規模到達了它的成本其實是低的那我在想我說我如何讓台灣"},{"start":16299.771,"end":16326.097,"text":"這些廠商更有這個世界的競爭力就是說你在台灣做這個綠能的太陽能發電的或者是風力發電的台灣就這麼小的一個島所以你能夠做的其實是非常有限那我們台灣就是要多元的綠能那我在講菲律賓這個命題其實是菲律賓的總統跟日本的首相跟美國的總統在今年的4月"},{"start":16327.168,"end":16336.045,"text":"他們簽訂了一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個合約來部長我先拉回來阿你剛剛講到廠商的部分對不對所以就會讓大家"},{"start":16337.162,"end":16340.444,"text":"昨天本席特別看你昨天講的話你講的是說不一定是我們公部門去設電廠而是廠商去然後我們用購買電的方式對不對"},{"start":16357.253,"end":16382.303,"text":"那你又講說沒有這個是你天馬行空的想法連跟最基本的國安單位也都沒有討論過沒有錯因為我剛剛在外交國防委員會我請教國安局局長啊我說國安局到底有沒有做過評估如果說我們的電我們的戰略物資居然是要從國外進口那無怪乎大家會質疑啊無怪乎大家會覺得是說今天菲律賓政府"},{"start":16383.243,"end":16399.416,"text":"之前的領導人相對比較親中現在領導人可能親美但會不會換了領導人之後就有換不同的一個角度政策 政治我同意委員你的想法我們有辦法掌握嗎我同意你的想法所以我們在風險的評估部長你今天講出來的這些狀況會不會真的太噁心會怎麼樣會不會太噁心會不會讓我們這兩天"},{"start":16409.933,"end":16437.862,"text":"報紙 頭條推播 大家要講 哇 我們部長菲律賓來電我對這樣子的一個我自己的這個發言不夠精準我剛才也講過了 我非常抱歉但是我的意思是說在菲律賓他可以得到比較低成本的這樣的一個部長清楚菲律賓的電價跟台灣的電價比較嗎"},{"start":16439.514,"end":16439.674,"text":"實在話講我覺得還是"},{"start":16454.912,"end":16483.032,"text":"拉回來能源是務實的選項能源不是天馬行空的幻想能源是每天大家都要用的能源也是實實在在的數字沒有美化數字沒有虛冠數字沒有作假數字有就有沒有就沒有會去想不是從我們台灣內部來發電而是想是說從外部然後怎麼樣來跟人家每多一分其實就是把我講實在話講部長"},{"start":16484.793,"end":16501.864,"text":"如果說這個話是相對來說這個其他我們在野黨民意代表講出來說不定他徹意已經泡翻了就是說你根本就是把台灣的經濟命脈把台灣的能源掌握在別人手裡所以你的天馬行空你的"},{"start":16503.466,"end":16531.952,"text":"換想不要變成是我們因為你如果說今天不是部長的話你要講什麼我沒有意見因為我跟你沒有私人恩怨嘛但你今天正在部長我質詢的是經濟部長既然你身為經濟部長講的每一句每一話每一行每一言政策是長治久安是這個我以後會謹言慎行謝謝黃孟海委員謝謝部長我們接下來請李玉玲委員"},{"start":16540.041,"end":16541.404,"text":"謝謝主席請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":16549.656,"end":16569.712,"text":"文雲好部長辛苦了從你一上任經濟部長本席對你期待非常的大因為你來自產業瞭解產業的需求會從務實面來做好更多的管理尤其是台電的虧損我相信有你的運作帷幄你的經營管理"},{"start":16570.112,"end":16593.627,"text":"一定會讓他們轉虧為盈所以早上提了很多的從呂宋島也好從哪裡把電運回來這個都是10年以後的當然要未雨綢繆但是還是要從務實面著手所有的案子都必須要可行性的評估案子成熟之後我們再公告再來執行對不對所以我們今天就來從務實面來討論"},{"start":16596.849,"end":16618.979,"text":"電價現在已經上漲民生動漲我們在產業上漲了12.5%在漲的部分我們擔心的就是你漲了產業但是產業的成本這個就會轉嫁到消費者身上我們電價連續漲了這個4波之後的話你看我們民生就漲了將近要到12%"},{"start":16621.92,"end":16622.08,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16643.49,"end":16644.25,"text":"本期在這邊就要建議部長"},{"start":16664.156,"end":16670.06,"text":"我們必須要在台電的營運上面來看他到了2023年他虧損將近3826億到現在今年將近4400億在我們給台電增資2500億再給他們補助500億在1113年114年各補助1000億要高達5000億這個經費"},{"start":16687.668,"end":16711.097,"text":"所以我們一定要怎麼樣去開源節流怎麼樣去找財源就是這麼簡單所以本席特別去了解一下那現在因為天然氣本來是價格是高漲的現在已經回落了在回落的當下經濟部也是可以中中協調一下是不是請中油啊可以把這價格調降給台電"},{"start":16713.968,"end":16714.428,"text":"現在我們這個中油其實也是虧損的"},{"start":16737.3,"end":16748.436,"text":"現在因為這個價錢可能是合約式的但是現在我們的國際物價的話天然氣已經回落啦價錢都有降下來了嘛那所以是現在事實上現在價錢是多少錢呢"},{"start":16749.629,"end":16768.098,"text":"現在這價格其實是14.5的這個價格對啊所以是不是可以調降一些讓我們的台電成本的上原物料的成本上也可以調降下來那你也要去找其他的裁員讓他的損失可以再降低這方面"},{"start":16768.858,"end":16788.426,"text":"跟委員報告,這個油跟這個天然氣我們會從這個建制成本上面我們會去努力來降價我想這個也是您剛才知道,我想讓我們台電的成本可以下降這是一個非常重要的因素啦,所以我們朝這方面來努力"},{"start":16788.706,"end":16791.229,"text":"長這樣你會調漲嗎現在已經回落了你就要降下來了這個請部長去多多溝通啦幫台電多爭取一點其他方面也是要重視的就是說因為我們現在主要的電力都是以火力發電為主宰的那個發電的電力"},{"start":16807.324,"end":16819.515,"text":"所以我們看到在2025年我們的再生能源要達到20%但是到今年為止大概是12%而已那2050年的話要達到60%如果達不到我看"},{"start":16823.098,"end":16824.539,"text":"我們會參考委員的這個指教我們會深刻的檢討"},{"start":16852.799,"end":16865.444,"text":"因為我們特別提到這些的話就是能源政策能源的配比的問題啦所以剛剛看你的那個報告書裡面特別講到核電非核"},{"start":16866.411,"end":16868.812,"text":"合能這個命題 剛才也報告很多了就是我們基本上還是在這個"},{"start":16891.602,"end":16908.372,"text":"合廢料可以處理然後安全無慮那所有的跟我們所有的這個這個國人大家都同意我想在這個前提之下我們不排除任何新的科技所以可以討論可以討論是這個三個前提之下可以討論是"},{"start":16909.338,"end":16914.561,"text":"所以本席會這樣子問的意思就是說現在我們民生動漲了現在漲產業但是產業的話你們可能分為一般性跟所有必需性的一些產業去做調整這個電價但是我們看到半導體的產業他們在供電量是佔了16.5%是我們所有發電量的這個最重要他佔的比例是最高的或許我們可以研議讓使用耗電量最高的部分他也可以負責更高的電價"},{"start":16938.717,"end":16958.337,"text":"是 他們 我們目前的這個計價的方式 確實是這樣就是說用電最大的這個廠商 他們有一級的 我們是分級的所以 您剛所指教的這個大的用電商 它其實付的…所以半導體有比較高嗎?是比較高的它是比較高 到14%嗎?它現在是付的是比較高的它有到14% 15%嗎?有"},{"start":16960.662,"end":16977.538,"text":"王總你要說什麼上一次這一波電價是沒有在做區別但是上一次的條價4月份的條價是有所以應該可以繼續研議可以繼續這樣子做他既然是高耗電量我們就請他多負擔一點才不會對我們民生有更大的衝擊"},{"start":16978.599,"end":16996.975,"text":"其他的廠商我們是根據這個深度節能來幫助這一些比較中小的公司但是他用電耗電比較多的我們透過深度節能的方法大概可以看出績效因為每個公司產業不一樣我們可以看到大概可以省7%的這個電費"},{"start":17001.138,"end":17005.602,"text":"臺電才會轉虧為益這是非常重要的所以我們希望第一個就是部長去溝通這個我們的天然氣可不可以降價第二個就是讓我們的用電大戶高用電量的話可以調整他的電價再來的話我們希望的話就是讓我們的"},{"start":17024.998,"end":17039.673,"text":"所有綠電都能夠穩定這個部分的話想辦法趕快達標因為我們剛剛看你們所有的數字裡面科學數字部長喜歡說科學數字都我們擔心的是不能達標那在接下來本席要講的就是離岸風電剛剛早上大家有提到那3-1 3-2的話目前的話還是國產那本席要提醒的也是跟部長講的"},{"start":17048.502,"end":17049.042,"text":"我想會阿沒有阿"},{"start":17076.394,"end":17077.035,"text":"政府所簽訂的合約內容是不能改變的"},{"start":17092.995,"end":17094.536,"text":"是 報告委員 我們現在的目的就是幫助國產化的這個廠商"},{"start":17118.422,"end":17122.083,"text":"提醒女士當然他沒有競爭力他們雖然是出的草創來成軍但是我們政府當然要輔導他但他投下去的成本一開始是這麼龐大的不能因為一開始就把他丟到國際上去跟他競爭這樣子的話他競爭力會"},{"start":17146.769,"end":17146.929,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17163.261,"end":17187.75,"text":"現在因為我們去遵照我們蔡英文總統的這個政策去投入了這個資金現在他們已經投入了也整軍完成了我們要繼續輔導他畢竟這是國產的我們才會鞏固自己的發電的能量這才是永續的好不好是沒有錯是的那請部長特別要注意注重這一點因為國產的還是需要靠我們經濟部來扶持的是好謝謝謝謝李議員委員謝謝部長"},{"start":17191.946,"end":17193.127,"text":"我們接下來請黃國昌委員謝謝主席﹖有請經濟部國部長請國部長"},{"start":17218.123,"end":17238.434,"text":"委員好部長上次院會總質詢的時候我請教我們的行政院院長卓榮泰卓院長有關於在電力、能源、發電、配比賴清德政府的路徑那個時候你應該是因公出國沒有在院會裡但是次長來了"},{"start":17240.174,"end":17261.127,"text":"國發處會主委也在旁邊上個會期在經濟組總質詢的時候我提出這個問題我必須要先跟部長講對整個再生能源發展的路徑一片空白我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為那一天包括院長以及兩個部會最重要的主管在質詢台上完全沒有辦法"},{"start":17262.188,"end":17289.255,"text":"回答我所提出來的問題那當然在議會的時候總諮詢沒有辦法回答問題我一定給行政部門時間回去好好的思考回去好好的規劃因為能源轉型電力配比不能只有口號如果只有口號的話那接下來接下來大家會非常的擔心政府不是這樣子幹的"},{"start":17290.935,"end":17313.545,"text":"我想把這個基本的前提先跟部長說明完了以後我們來先確認一件事第一個事情之前蔡英文總統2025年的時候再生能源佔比要達到20%那基本上是確定跳票了啦確定跳票了那所以我們的賴清德總統提出了一個新的目標到2026年的時候要實現20%那政府"},{"start":17318.468,"end":17342.085,"text":"畫了這樣的一個目標喊了這樣的一個口號那我就看到底這個路徑是怎麼樣來請部長先仔細看我們從2016年到2024年過去8年再生能源增加了4.9%按照經濟部行政院會後提供給我的資料來我們先來看第一段"},{"start":17342.915,"end":17355.602,"text":"第一段是到2026年的11月就賴清德總統所講的2026年的11月從現在2024年到2026年的11月要再增加9.5%過去8年增加了4.9%接下來的兩年三個月要再增加9.5%部長你覺得這個實際不實際"},{"start":17369.502,"end":17395.113,"text":"我報告這個委員我想這個不是線性的關係這個我們在原本來2025年就可以達成的目標因為一些材料的關係因為戰爭的關係所以他必須要在延11個月到2026年的11月我想以我們現在所了解的進度這個目標應該是可以達成的"},{"start":17395.593,"end":17402.238,"text":"這目標可以達成嗎?剛剛部長講得很好這不是線性的關係嘛那如果不是線性的關係的話部長"},{"start":17405.582,"end":17430.024,"text":"當過企業的董事長是針對這整個進度啊你可以回去看一下些如果不是線性的關係看可不可以寫個函數啊寫個函數出來讓大家了解我們政府怎麼規劃我為什麼說這樣講如果不是線性的關係來我們再接下來往後看結果到了2028年的時候在一年一個月只增加1.3%了"},{"start":17432.23,"end":17457.986,"text":"那很怪囉兩年三個月火速飛快可以增加9.5%在一年一個月只可以增加1.3%剛剛部長講得很好啊這不是線性的關係啊你要函數解釋也可以啊但我沒有辦法理解的是這個到底是一個什麼樣子的進度規劃你看了不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":17459.947,"end":17487.198,"text":"這是裝置量的問題我們的政府我們的政府在做這一些目標設定的時候當然啦齁今天你在這邊所講的話在國會都會留下記錄嗎當然時間到了以後有兌現沒有兌現到時候都可以檢證只不過說在我國比較遺憾的也是很多企業界在詬病的我們的政府喊口號講計畫是很會"},{"start":17489.759,"end":17510.214,"text":"到時候在檢驗的時候啊 通常是什麼不堪檢驗不堪檢驗因為呢你到2028年你到2028年的時候再增加1.3到了2030年的時候突然又要增加8.7部長你真的有看過這個目標寫出來的時候他們有給你詳細的內容嗎還是口號隨便喊一喊"},{"start":17515.219,"end":17541.033,"text":"根據這個委員剛才的這個數字啊我在這個部裡面我們在討論的時候是有這些數字我也跟委員一樣懷疑達成率會多少但是以目前他們所掌握的這個數字確實是可以履約的好部長你顯然看到了一些我沒有看到的數字嗎他們怎麼跟你報告的"},{"start":17542.219,"end":17546.56,"text":"怎麼樣透過這種非常詭異的速度"},{"start":17547.606,"end":17574.378,"text":"接下來的兩年三個月要增加9.5%喔然後再往後的一年一個月突然慢下來了只增加1.3%接下來兩年又加速了又到8.7%這個喔全部都是你們給我的數字那顯然有一些基礎的判斷資料可能部長有掌握嘛掌握那個複雜的函數的基礎資料但我沒掌握會後提供給我可以嗎?他是因為風場不一樣"},{"start":17576.039,"end":17601.628,"text":"然後那個風機的這個設置的這個速度跟時間不一樣沒有關係啦部長你來自企業界我相信企業界的人士喜歡看實際的數字嘛喜歡看data嘛具體要怎麼落實嘛不是數字隨便填一填嘛所以我才說顯然你有看到一些基礎資料是我們其他委員都沒看到的是不是可以提供給大家"},{"start":17603.346,"end":17623.797,"text":"有困難嗎?可以 沒困難可以嘛 那我們再講比較具體的就好 因為時間到 我只問最後一個問題我再講比較具體的是剛剛那個是overall的數字嘛那我們現在就要切細的看喔包括太陽光電 包括風力 你們的占比到底要怎麼樣調整 怎麼樣變化"},{"start":17626.238,"end":17639.466,"text":"按照目前經濟部所交給我的是說就太陽光電的部分你們到2026年的時候會增加到9.4%到2028年的時候會增加到10%現在是多少部長你知道嗎5.2現在是5.2嘛所以到2026年11月的時候可以到9.4你看到的數字也有信心"},{"start":17656.499,"end":17683.739,"text":"報告這個太陽能是比較快的大概兩年就可以達到預定的目標阿其他的風力阿或者是其他的燃煤阿或者是燃氣的都要六年才有辦法按照您剛所講太陽能比較快嘛所以從現在開始算大概兩年可以增加4%多嘛對嘛然後到2028年的時候只能增加0.6%"},{"start":17686.134,"end":17710.053,"text":"部長您看一下你們經濟部給我的數字這沒有錯 因為這個還是要看場域啦我們是可以同意他來設置會後把你看的data跟大家講因為這個函數啊 真的太奇怪了不是 他沒有函數關係啦沒有關係嘛你基本上面的基礎資料提供給大家嘛我看看你們到底是怎麼做計畫的嘛"},{"start":17710.653,"end":17729.363,"text":"接下來要達成你們的目標,你們太陽光電還要增加多少GW,地面型的?增加5GW你們上來齁,要協助部長齁,基礎資料自己要掌握好啦"},{"start":17730.456,"end":17741.728,"text":"這個都是你們經濟部給的數字啦從2016年到現在2024年6月5GW未來還要再增加多少要達到你們的目標到2026年要6.8GW接下來6.8GW需要多少土地"},{"start":17754.498,"end":17778.797,"text":"6.8GW如果扣掉地面型跟屋頂型的話沒有沒有6.8全部都是地面型的啦如果6.8GW大概就算6千公頃的土地怎麼6.8GW是只有純地面型的你都不是那麼清楚喔清楚6.8GW需要幾公頃約6千公頃的土地盤點好了嗎這部分還要跨部會的協商所以現在還沒有盤點好嗎是嗎請部長"},{"start":17784.179,"end":17807.167,"text":"報告委員剛部長講裝置容量嘛那你要裝這個東西我也是跟你講地面型的嘛就要土地嘛但是站在你旁邊那位先生說還要跨部會協商嘛所以你看到的基礎資料您所講的裝置容量現在連地在哪裡都還沒有盤點我有說錯嗎報告委員 這個地的部分我們跟農委會都有在談"},{"start":17809.628,"end":17830.957,"text":"謝謝黃委員時間超過很多農業部的部分事實上是有您剛才所提到的沒有關係剛剛主席主席已經站起來提醒我時間到了最後一樣會後請您把你們盤點好的地可以按照這樣子的計畫進行把那個具體的計畫內容提供給我這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":17837.547,"end":17838.087,"text":"請王毅民委員質詢。"},{"start":17859.326,"end":17886.223,"text":"部長今天的報告其實已經指出來太陽光電20GW這個目標其實已經是跳票了但是你重新給了一個目標就是2026年你可以達到但是計算現在的缺口大概將近7GW這麼多那剛剛也有委員提到說7GW你到底地面型要設置多少屋頂型要多少你可不可以再重新講一次你們精確的數字"},{"start":17888.612,"end":17916.916,"text":"我可不可以請能源署署長好來署長你說好跟委員報告我們在規劃的時候大概一般是50%的屋頂型50%的地面型的總體來看那我們也有設定一個20GW的總目標屋頂8地面12那8的部分我們目前已經達成了可是會繼續推屋頂如果做得多有效的可以紓解地面型所以我問你嘛這7GW多少是地面多少是屋頂沒有答案還不知道"},{"start":17917.797,"end":17935.965,"text":"我們現在就是屋頂型的已經達到那是地面型原則上是地面型那如果原則上都是地面型的話你們剛剛說要超過6000公頃的土地那這個地從哪裡來有沒有一個方向跟目標"},{"start":17938.467,"end":17952.507,"text":"最大規模的比例會來自什麼樣的土地?我們推這個漁電共生大概會有多大面積?基本上漁電共生它是有這個農業部它給我們的土地大概有2萬公頃"},{"start":17953.885,"end":17970.426,"text":"兩萬公頃是所以已經超過你需要的土地是這麼大是所以完全可以移來這邊可以好那就部長你這句話接下來我就要問你既然是這樣子為什麼現在光電業者要入侵到社區去在社區裡面"},{"start":17972.048,"end":17992.689,"text":"大量的重電造成這個社區裡面這個鄉親的困擾我讓你看了這張圖這個是嘉義縣大埔鄉這個光電業者他在這個活動中心供老人用餐的地方你看看周遭通通都是光電板學校附近也是光電板住家附近也是光電板"},{"start":17993.63,"end":18012.688,"text":"在10月11號還爆發嚴重的衝突這個光業業者進行施工然後怪車怪手司機他還要去衝撞這個阻擋的村民這件事情部長知不知道報告委員這個案子我想他是合法申請"},{"start":18013.709,"end":18029.528,"text":"然後得到這個嘉義縣政府合法的同意被查你剛看到那個畫面了合法申請你認為你們現在的規則沒有問題嗎連卓院長我在立法院問他的時候院會質詢他都覺得這看起來是不合理"},{"start":18030.902,"end":18036.308,"text":"院長一定有交辦經濟部那你收到了沒?你們開始處理了沒?署長你有在處理嗎?有處理現在處理的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":18050.866,"end":18064.375,"text":"報言因為這個案子我們大概知道現場他是一個都市計畫的住宅區那依法當然他可以設置不過確實如剛剛委員的相片所顯示的他跟周遭的環境之間可能有一些比較鄰近的這些問題所以我們請縣府跟業者"},{"start":18066.957,"end":18077.508,"text":"要跟我們的鄉親做好充分的溝通希望能夠達成有在做嗎我跟你說沒有在做明天這些鄉親就要包遊覽車上來到行政院去抗議了我給這個部長看一下你們現在其實存在的問題就是你們根本對這種社區型的你們是不設防的"},{"start":18088.139,"end":18108.468,"text":"剛剛署長講只要地主同意就蓋啊那他如果像台南小二甲化整為零我分批來你就會看到剛剛這樣子大面積的通通都是但是有沒有審核沒有審核標準所以你們現在對於這種社區型的既然你說光是漁業署這樣的土地已經夠了我要求這種社區型的要嚴格的審核而且要一個審核的標準"},{"start":18112.89,"end":18138.908,"text":"你們現在其實都沒有包括社區學校醫院旁邊如果他種光電板你們現在是不適合訪的所以大埔會出現這樣子那你剛剛看到一個很荒謬的畫面連卓院長都覺得荒謬就是這麼小的社區這麼大量的一個光電板你根本沒有走面積的一個上限你沒有個容量的上限而且需不需要經過居民同意也完全不需要所以現在大埔的居民是求助無門"},{"start":18139.949,"end":18140.089,"text":"這我們會深刻檢討"},{"start":18161.604,"end":18183.675,"text":"好那我就希望這個部長今天已經知道這個問題的嚴重性你也覺得未來不需要入侵到社區去設這些光電板那這一類型的就應該要嚴審而且不需要再設置了另外一點曾文水庫絕對不可以蓋光電板這一家光電業者還申請要在水庫上面蓋光電板他是被嘉義縣議會"},{"start":18185.896,"end":18192.322,"text":"就是做成決議暫緩是暫緩沒有撤銷我希望這個案子這個經濟部要嚴審徵問水庫是江南地區的大的水庫的命脈怎麼可以允許這麼荒謬在水庫上面去蓋光電板既然我們已經夠用了我覺得這一類水庫學校醫院社區應該都要禁止不應該再入侵了可以嗎是謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":18216.789,"end":18227.186,"text":"請陳昭志委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請台電董事長 請郭部長 曾董事長"},{"start":18235.18,"end":18262.923,"text":"委員好部長好我的背景是藥學在食藥署他對於製藥工程的管理有一套這個品質規範那就是跟國際接軌從早期的GMP到後來的CGMP甚至現在的PIX GMP都是為了有一個精神就是他生產的東西的品質要有一致性所以我想不論是藥品或是工業的產品所有的品質要有一致性我不曉得部長您同不同意這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":18264.164,"end":18277.391,"text":"完全同意那部長您過去在加入這個團隊之前您是在產業界有所謂的斜槓經紀人的美稱除了半導體的科技業您也涉足食品水產環保健康光電跟綠能等產業那我想請問部長部長當你蓋一個廠房的時候那你會先供應商購買這個所謂的這個設備器材"},{"start":18286.415,"end":18307.432,"text":"請問你可以接受廠商給你不符合採購要求或是不合格的產品嗎?你會同意嗎?當然不會同意但是部長請看這個大林電廠更新改建工程從2012年開始他到今天為止光是跟煤倉有關的更新改建工程他花了80億元"},{"start":18309.373,"end":18332.779,"text":"因為梅艙是所謂的晨爆、氣爆的高風險區所以所謂的它要使用的防爆器材必須是國家TS認證的一個防爆電機管配件但是我們發現目前安裝在大林電廠上的防爆配管件無論是哪一家公司、盟獄、政賀或是申方"},{"start":18333.539,"end":18349.988,"text":"都有不合格的狀況這件事民眾黨在9月30號提出報有了記者會請問部長知道這件事嗎我有耳聞好部長還不知道好那我本來期待經濟部跟台電內部已經有的這個內部的調查董事長知道嗎"},{"start":18352.321,"end":18368.938,"text":"知道告訴我知不知道這件事情我知道這件事情那根據這個國家的標準CNS3376標準裡面講得很清楚爆炸性的環境我們使用的金屬器材對於鋁、鎂、鈦、鈠有含量的限制為什麼呢"},{"start":18369.699,"end":18398.326,"text":"因為這些金屬是屬於助燃物它會幫助燃燒所以絕對不能用來這個作為防爆另外有個東西叫做縮狀石墨鑄鐵它也因為這個根據CNS14438的標準在製造過程中在製造過程中它會加入這些金屬鎂、鈦、鎬去幫助它的求化率會提高就是有這樣的一個情況部長、董事長我們來看這個防爆配管件金屬材料要比的是什麼"},{"start":18399.086,"end":18407.174,"text":"拉伸的強度,第一個最理想的就是球末鑄鐵,它的標準化球化率需要80%以上再來是可鑽鑄鐵,但是可鑽鑄鐵可能是因為環保的因素已經大概超過10年不生產了,國際不生產了,可能買不到"},{"start":18415.382,"end":18430.74,"text":"那最下階的就是灰口鑄鐵灰口鑄鐵它是不能使用的因為它的這個拉伸度不夠你知道外面的那個水溝蓋倒入的時候就是用的就是灰石鑄鐵那碩木鑄鐵我剛剛提到因為它裡面有一些金屬那些金屬會鑄燃所以它不能用"},{"start":18432.642,"end":18441.565,"text":"那部長董事長大林電廠更新改建工程合約要求當然也要求了合約可斷鑄鐵或鋼或是球末鑄鐵這是OK的但是請部長董事長看這張今年8月6號職安署的大林這個電廠去抽測結果10件有6件不合格"},{"start":18453.764,"end":18469.758,"text":"裡面有五件就是含了這個有很多所謂的剛剛我講的幾個金屬的這個縮狀這個鑄鐵另外還有一件它含的是灰口鑄鐵根本不防爆另外五個是會助燃的防爆器這是8月6號執安署去抽查出來的結果"},{"start":18471.039,"end":18471.699,"text":"我可以請董事長來回答嗎?"},{"start":18496.718,"end":18513.324,"text":"不然一起看下面那個紡織品另外有一家政客公司它的原型接線盒也是為了用於防爆你看同樣一家公司它提供的有違品的求化率是0也有真的92%這是以假亂真以次充好以列充好啊到底這些防爆品是誰賣進去的誰交給台電的台電怎麼驗收好請解釋謝謝"},{"start":18520.458,"end":18533.686,"text":"我跟委員報告就說就剛才鄭如婷您所說的現在因為各種的防暴設施他的品項非常的多那簡單來講我們現在是用他有認證有TS標章那這幾個產品確實有TS標章那這個TS標章在核發的時候是不是這些廠商有作假這個我們現在會查"},{"start":18545.493,"end":18558.79,"text":"這是第一件事第二件事情就是這個地方所需要做的防爆的規範跟要求對台電來講這個規格是高的所以我們也要求工程單位跟電廠針對這個部分開始做更全面的檢測"},{"start":18564.137,"end":18583.853,"text":"兩位首長下一張2020年台電就知情了你用到的那個最大的Apple Atom的這個仿製品照片上這位就是南部司空處的正信經理他當時就跟這個現在樂鐵的台灣代表拿了兩個圓形接鑑盒桌上就是那兩個圓形接鑑盒送到金屬中心去檢測"},{"start":18585.094,"end":18602.03,"text":"照片桌面那兩個圓形接線大家看得到右邊就是工作委託單很奇怪喔這個工作委託單這個正信定裡沒有具名喔他叫同仁具名這是什麼意思這是什麼意思好那這個檢查結果呢你可以看到這個檢查結果左邊是寫"},{"start":18603.598,"end":18606.22,"text":"請問正信經理有把這件事呈報給台電總公司嗎?請問你們知情嗎?"},{"start":18627.128,"end":18628.489,"text":"指安署的這個檢測報告是在最近才給我們"},{"start":18655.845,"end":18656.726,"text":"我們現在知道 既然知道廠商都會做假"},{"start":18681.286,"end":18681.746,"text":"請高金委員質詢"},{"start":18718.717,"end":18718.877,"text":"主席"},{"start":18744.448,"end":18744.808,"text":"五個多月吧"},{"start":18763.038,"end":18789.784,"text":"有沒有覺得很疲累不會可是我看到你很疲累我看到你的心非常的疲憊剛剛從黃國昌委員一直到這個周知委員你好像都已經沒有辦法招架了那我今天其實要提醒你的就是大家給你非常多的期待跟期望我們希望你依然是帶著初心來到這個地方就是為人民服務"},{"start":18791.4,"end":18793.446,"text":"用您的專業跟您經營企業的心態還有手腕"},{"start":18799.843,"end":18822.384,"text":"來好好的做這個位置今天我沒有很深入的問題我只是講一個非常邏輯的問題看一下能源配比本末倒置用電政策舍本逐末您可以不要及時的回答就好好看一下我給你整理的一些資料民進黨他從1990年代他就開始反核運動了"},{"start":18823.785,"end":18837.798,"text":"當時呢他就喊出了非核家園的運動理想經過了20多年到了2016年這個反核理想變成了就是2025年的非核家園的政策目標當時您還在企業界我想問您當時的態度是什麼你說這個能源的配比嗎能源的政策非核家園"},{"start":18846.421,"end":18859.668,"text":"這個不是我的這個我經濟部部長執行這個當時你在企業你看到我們的民進黨政府要把2025非核加嚴政策當作他的執行目標了你的看法是什麼"},{"start":18860.359,"end":18872.226,"text":"我那個時候沒有什麼看法了因為我大概就明天都會去考慮這個能源你是民間的董事長耶好我們看一下當年蔡英文政府提出這個政策目標齁2025年能源發電的結構比是天然氣要佔50%會影響到你們的這個喔企業喔燃煤佔了30%這會影響我們的空氣喔"},{"start":18884.594,"end":18904.248,"text":"再生能源佔了20%能不能達到我相信您是一個有名的董事長產業界的榔頭老大你應該都清楚好了現在8年過去了依照經濟部今年發布的2023年全國電力的資源供需報告能源發電的結構佔比燃煤仍然是最高的所以呢"},{"start":18905.129,"end":18911.293,"text":"我們的空氣會越來越壞它的占比是42.24%我們的天然氣還是第二占了39.57%核能減少了將近一半6.31%7月底核三廠關閉"},{"start":18920.9,"end":18930.351,"text":"只剩下了3%而我們也清楚知道必按連連的再生能源它卻成長有限從5%只增長到9.47%經濟部你們今年預估2025年的再生能源的佔比只能達到15%"},{"start":18938.8,"end":18960.046,"text":"然而原先設定的20%的政策目標要推遲到2026年的11月才能夠達標這已經是第二次的推遲了民進黨政府在2025年非核家園的理想為什麼到現在還沒有辦法兌現呢有人說是因為新冠疫情的影響有人說是惡霧戰爭的結果這理由我認為都說不過去啦"},{"start":18960.606,"end":18981.487,"text":"我認為要實現一個重大的能源的轉型目標是一個風險很大的政策對吧要實現這種轉變需要的是穩健的政策對不對對吧同意齁可是民進黨政府他們卻急於求成現在核能雖然已經如民進黨所願幾乎要停掉了"},{"start":18982.048,"end":19009.958,"text":"但是我們的再生能源這個部分就算貪多求快目標也一拖再拖不能夠達標然而弊案連連這種能源配比的目標根本就是本末倒置只要我認為只要正本清源合理運用現有的發電能源也就是核能我們的能源配比是可以穩健轉型的但是呢我們的民進黨政府就是不願意放棄2025年的非核家園的執念這也是我覺得你心內的問題"},{"start":19011.178,"end":19013.84,"text":"河電減少了之後,就必須要南電北送。"},{"start":19041.779,"end":19046.545,"text":"強化電網韌性建設計畫這是人民的納稅錢喔臺電又說要用來發電的國際能源價格大漲了我們如果再繼續買下去臺電就要破產了於是呢我們民進黨政府這兩年又要增資撥補了多少?10千億"},{"start":19059.801,"end":19064.145,"text":"然後我們的民進黨政府拿人民的納稅錢撇補了台電然後的問題解決了嗎沒有解決台電繼續要漲電價這3年來我們看一下我們台電漲了3次的電價漲幅是30%我相信你應該很清楚"},{"start":19076.115,"end":19082.263,"text":"今年4月漲完電價之後臺電又講了他說如果不再繼續撥補的話電價還要再漲12%12%結果呢民進黨政府又編了多少1000億的撥補預算還漲了電價平均的漲幅超過了12%過去的8年"},{"start":19095.039,"end":19105.288,"text":"你不在沒關係我們民進黨政府他編列了誠意上照的能源轉型預算明年也就是114年度我們的預算繼續要編多少1161億還有一個什麼呢6年9000億的2030淨零轉型計畫我們看一下蔡英文砸大錢拼了8年我們的綠能配比也增加不到5%"},{"start":19123.143,"end":19143.785,"text":"未來的6年要達到配比20%這有可能嗎?請問我們在努力讓綠能在2026年能夠達到20%有很多細節問題黃國昌委員都問了但是今天我要再問你一個你看一下今天的頭版頭條都是你的新聞"},{"start":19145.387,"end":19161.453,"text":"部長你知道你又犯了什麼錯誤嗎你又犯了民進黨把理想當政策的錯誤我認為以您這位企業家的經歷你不應該會犯這種錯誤啊你看一下今天您的頭條新聞部長你要不要看一下你要到菲律賓到日本蓋綠電廠啊"},{"start":19169.675,"end":19187.487,"text":"這個是一個比較大的命題的討論啦但是我想我跟媒體的溝通沒有很好所以他會截這一段來放大說明所以我也感到很抱歉我自己的這個言語不夠精準沒有把這件事情表達得很好那所以要嗎?會做嗎?這件事情"},{"start":19189.448,"end":19189.468,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":19223.374,"end":19238.958,"text":"請廖偉祥委員發質詢謝謝主席 邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":19246.977,"end":19269.883,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛高金委員講的一切在我總質詢的時候應該也有講過類似的話題然後就是說我們現在能源配比就好比是在打棒球賽一樣根本就是硬要堅持這樣做是打假球的一個行為那身為球隊總經理其實當初我想大家看到您來接這個經濟部長的時候是希望你在"},{"start":19270.883,"end":19284.676,"text":"業界的經驗然後你是企業家你可以有理性務實然後真正可以幫我們做理性的判斷但現在看到這樣子實在是令人覺得不知道是你有沒有持續保持這個初心所以我也是呼應一下剛剛我們高經緯委員說的"},{"start":19286.457,"end":19296.304,"text":"那甚至是您剛剛的這個這個想要去菲律賓日本設電廠的這個問題那這個我們等一下再來討論但是在開始之前我還是想要先問一下部長因為上一次您沒有來是次長來可是我有提到一個問題就是我有收到民間的陳情就是這個藥局因為藥商藥廠因為這次被漲電價所以他就要求說他的所有藥要乘以1.1給藥局對不對這個部分"},{"start":19314.056,"end":19315.756,"text":"因為這個不是需要溝通的問題啦"},{"start":19339.631,"end":19357.042,"text":"這當然可以溝通我只想問他有沒有來跟您提過這個類似的事情因為我當初其實我也有把那個資料用出來就是說這個他們有沒有去跟你溝通這個問題我想知道有沒有而已啦衛福部長有沒有跟我們郭部長這邊來溝通或是相關的單位有沒有溝通這個問題"},{"start":19365.178,"end":19378.735,"text":"這個問題應該有吧?跟委員報告齁,因為一般的藥房都是那個用電比較小,都是累積的那個你就不用解釋,我只問有沒有來溝通這件事因為我當時就有請他去溝通,他答應我說要溝通,請問有溝通嗎?是啊,我們會溝通啦"},{"start":19381.358,"end":19400.671,"text":"阿有沒有嘛沒有嘛對不對因為你說不是這樣子溝通就有用可是為什麼當初這個菸草和這個我們的醫療診所就馬上就那個新聞一爆出來你們馬上轉彎了沒關係我只想知道他有沒有溝通阿這是第一件事我報告委員齁我想這個菸草那個事情齁是我們台灣沒有不用解釋那個我沒有要問那個問題我只是一樣回到我的問題就是說我們的衛福部長有沒有跟我們經濟部這邊來討論有關於這部分有這樣子的需求或者是因為這樣子因為現在"},{"start":19410.157,"end":19417.484,"text":"我們的部署裡面應該就是有溝通啦 但是沒有直接跟你溝通因為我比較忙一點啦那我直接再跳下面好了 這題反正就是沒有跟你直接溝通啦 因為你比較忙 他比較不忙"},{"start":19433.439,"end":19452.527,"text":"我想要請問您發想要去菲律賓和日本等地蓋電廠會有這樣的想法主要的目的是因為國內電力供應不穩嗎還是因為提供國內的綠電需求一或者兩者都要有不是這樣子這個我從早上到現在大概已經講了20次了對"},{"start":19454.989,"end":19474.665,"text":"我們到菲律賓這是一個命題跟國內的綠電完全沒有關係但是部長您要知道這個命題在這個時間點出現就是會讓人民很恐慌的事情對我的言語不夠精準非常抱歉這真的是讓人覺得天馬行空並急亂投移真的是讓人覺得很緊張因為當初我們就已經講過討論過這個所有能源配比的問題"},{"start":19480.429,"end":19501.76,"text":"所以在這邊要跟委員報告這一個跟我們的能源政策是沒有關係的所以這只是國際討論在研討這個能源的時候這其中一個重要的命題好部長那另外這個碳費費率已經公佈了嘛那根據已公告的碳費收費辦法的第3條"},{"start":19502.6,"end":19525.891,"text":"那大概就是有這個範疇一製程與設施再加上範疇二有間接能源的部分超過2.5萬噸則收這個碳費的部分了那我想關於製程跟設施的提升和改善當然政府要輔導可是主要也是企業自己在努力阿他們也在努力了嘛對不對但範疇二的部分呢就是這個間接能源的部分可是目前依照我們這樣子的能源配比"},{"start":19527.411,"end":19551.51,"text":"這個部分其實就是削弱了他們國際上的競爭力如果比起那些用電這個有一些國家能源配比比較合理的甚至有用核能發電平均去發電的這樣子的這樣子的企業對他們來講我們國家我們國內的這些廠商是不是會面臨到很大的競爭的問題因為他也在這個範球位的部分是我們錯誤的能源配比我想請教部長這個你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":19552.538,"end":19571.95,"text":"政策會因為這個時間而改變沒有說哪一個時間它是正確哪一個時間是錯誤所以你的意思是說未來可能會改變決定要用核能是這樣嗎還是不一定還是說這個能源配比所以這個能源配比也只是暫時性的不會說只有50%就是多久會變我們現在這個都是在與時俱進所以這是滾動式的討論我們會滾動式的討論然後會seeking所有新的能源"},{"start":19578.053,"end":19594.94,"text":"所有可以用的可以降低成本的能源我們都可以用是部長但是你們現在這樣子就是讓人民很害怕因為這時間是不等人的啦你以為隨便想要蓋一個核能廠或是核能廠要研議隨時就可以有嗎當然不是嘛一個核電廠要6年然後一個核能廠研議要3年對所以我要說你們當初能源的發展綱領也8年多沒調整你跟我說滾動式調整"},{"start":19601.983,"end":19624.372,"text":"我是說從現在開始我沒有講說過去8年我沒有參與所以我沒有辦法回答過去8年為什麼沒有調整但是從現在開始我跟你們報告的就是我們會滾動式的調整請這個委員能夠了解也知道說我們在努力啊為國人的這個用電上面創造一個新的環境"},{"start":19624.872,"end":19625.653,"text":"我請部長要務實的幫助企業幫助我們國家解決這樣的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":19665.688,"end":19680.18,"text":"請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席然後一樣請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":19688.857,"end":19712.07,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長好 辛苦了 下午2點還這麼多委員在這邊質詢啊我想後面很多人繼續問了 我想當然主因當然這跟部長昨天的發言有很大的關係部長雖然說你剛剛已經跟委員們致歉了 但是我想繼續了解一下這個天馬行空的這個想法從何而來因為我想這個大家都看到新聞了 6月17號 雲報能源宣布他們在菲律賓來插集 採取太陽能"},{"start":19712.728,"end":19712.908,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":19728.531,"end":19743.789,"text":"這兩件事情完全是獨立事件我也不清楚雲報公司到菲律賓去投資的這個事情我這個到菲律賓這個案件其實是我們在這個斯坂明夫他在創建這個所謂的"},{"start":19746.632,"end":19774.235,"text":"印太這個我看到你新聞上有回應你是在這個智庫上的這個各國大使給你建議的嘛這個他們啊這因為這個美國的大使日本的大使都在談這個所謂民主聯盟然後大家對未來的這個世界上面大家應該要互通這個在共同可以大家友好的部分所以才談到能源的部分那這個能源我個人認為因為"},{"start":19776.641,"end":19798.34,"text":"菲律賓、美國、日本在今年的4月他們的領導人共同簽了一個旅送經濟計畫這個剛剛尚偉回應過沒關係這我知道只是好奇啦如果這第一個點是說你不知道這事情但是你不知道也不應該啦坦白說如果我國廠商出去投資你沒有掌握這件事情本身也是有點奇怪我可以提醒一下部長"},{"start":19799.161,"end":19800.062,"text":"因為我們台灣土地是有限的"},{"start":19827.159,"end":19847.946,"text":"然後我們的海岸也是有限的但是綠能的業者他有經濟規模當他的這個經濟規模達到的時候他可以充分的降低他的成本好 謝謝部長提到的這就是企業經營的角度畢竟你從企業界來啦如果今天我們真的去國外買綠電比較便宜的話那我們國內幹嘛還要繼續發展這件事情呢"},{"start":19848.686,"end":19873.097,"text":"國內還是要發展這個綠電啊那這麼高啊 如果從企業經營角度你今天你從企業界來理論上你也知道說我們現在綠電成本可能相對比國外高嘛那既然你都覺得說去國外買的價格遠低於本土綠電那不是應該鼓勵我們國內的廠商去國外買綠電嗎這個 這有兩個不同的意義啦如果在國外可以幫助他降低成本"},{"start":19874.017,"end":19889.944,"text":"事實上它可以在國外去發揮國內的產業可以到國外去發揮這個是非常重要的成本觀念我是說今天你要的你今天提到這個日本或菲律賓的目的就是因為你說去國外買這個綠電對本土廠商來講比較便宜是嗎"},{"start":19892.779,"end":19919.094,"text":"本土廠商也可以到他們的那個地方去發展那我們不就產業不就外移了我的意思是這樣嘛產業外移這個是產業必須要有國際競爭力因為國家這個我們台灣的這個市場是比較小的我跟那個委員報告如果今天國外的綠電比較便宜那我們希望檢討國內的綠電能不能跟國外一樣便宜不然這樣真的對台灣的本土競爭是有問題的台灣的市場太小了啦"},{"start":19921.775,"end":19942.365,"text":"我們不能夠讓台灣的廠商只看台灣這麼小的市場對不起時間不夠那我繼續講這個部長提到說這個2000億撥補給你2000億你可以讓大家未來可能未來兩年不漲電價這是你的承諾如果2000億之後漲了你準備下台這是你講的嗎對好那部長我們試算一個表格過去這些年過去10年來"},{"start":19943.886,"end":19964.559,"text":"臺電以前有賺錢所以有所謂的電價穩定準備金以前都用電價穩定準備金來撥補那從112年之後因為這個電價穩定準備金花完了臺電自己沒有錢了所以現在用政府預算來撥補所以陸陸續續一直在撥補來包含政府之前增值2500億那你現在提到還要再2000億部長我們看一張圖我們試算一下2000億什麼概念兩年"},{"start":19965.419,"end":19989.047,"text":"如果臺灣2300萬人每人負擔就是8696元兩年電價有12期電費平均一個人要付725元以四口之家它等於我什麼就像我很省電我是民生用電啊我在家用電啊但是你四口之家等於莫名其妙如果真的政府今天立法院同意你撥補2000億給台電我等於從每個人口袋裡面每一期電費掏出2900元的電費出來"},{"start":19992.241,"end":19997.243,"text":"政府是股東要拿2000出來幫台電去補這個2000億的缺口那你要怎麼樣做到後續這兩年能夠確定成本不會再上漲那你才能夠把盈餘補回來"},{"start":20021.973,"end":20028.778,"text":"部長你這樣講的話意思就是你等於是變相用漲電價的方式補回來嗎那你今天使用者付費如果使用者付費的觀念要建立起來的話"},{"start":20051.255,"end":20055.278,"text":"我們補貼的都是小的用戶啊小的商家啊、不是住家啊這一些就是比較弱勢的啊我如果2000同意了之後"},{"start":20074.259,"end":20098.173,"text":"所以委員您的指教就是說使用者付費?當然第一個使用者付費 第二個如果你真的堅持要這2000億你要提出你要今天等於你在辦公室增資的意思嘛你要發行新股嘛 2000億要去填補過去的虧損嘛"},{"start":20099.153,"end":20124.34,"text":"那兩千億給你之後你總是要提出一個財務規劃我們提出就是我們會努力來改善這個整個台鐵的這個結構成本結構那你要算出來你要提供報告讓民眾讓立法院知道說你的兩千億未來兩年你要怎麼樣去把這個缺口補起來然後保證那個是補貼不是增資所以我跟您如果是股東的話我也鄭重在這裡跟你報告"},{"start":20125.18,"end":20139.649,"text":"就是說我們會去努力這個補貼了他這個這個財務的這個過去的損失啊這個損失是因為去照顧我們的中小的家庭你這個2000億補進去過去的缺口補起來未來兩年你的這個臺電公司或整個台灣的能源結構的成本你應該算出來讓我們知道2000億補了可能"},{"start":20151.192,"end":20177.755,"text":"你承諾兩年不漲電價那原理是什麼?原因是什麼?我覺得你要提出報告可以嗎?我認為我努力然後得到的這個結果會讓這個電價審議委員讓他來判斷不漲價部長那你有沒有辦法提出這個試算報告?提出財務規劃?要不然你怎麼讓我們同意?我要怎麼同意你這兩件事情撥補過去?我們可以來努力來做這個這部分跟委員報告好部長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":20186.844,"end":20198.453,"text":"請業委員之委員質詢麻煩請經濟部長請郭部長"},{"start":20207.023,"end":20226.448,"text":"呃部長好就是一樣您的一番話造成大家在立法院討厭一整天啊所以代表說你不能夠隨便亂講話嘛對吧那按照你的計畫你的講法是講說你是要鼓勵企業還是政府要在海外設電廠是用哪一個方式按照你的構想"},{"start":20227.779,"end":20255.271,"text":"我們是鼓勵企業啦鼓勵企業對所以你是用鼓勵企業的方式然後在海外設電廠嘛那你有提到說會請IIT的那個人幫忙嗎對吧因為這個我跟委員報告是這個呃呂宋這個經濟狼帶的這個計畫是美國日本我都知道你你要針對我的問題回答就好因為今天報紙都寫得很清楚了你有找IIT幫忙嘛對吧不是"},{"start":20255.848,"end":20259.21,"text":"所以基本上我認為你說你是草率發言我覺得你是改口啦實際上你是有這個計畫啦"},{"start":20285.425,"end":20303.111,"text":"因為按照報紙的說法你的計畫非常完整啊第一個你有原因嘛 對不對就是說新加坡到歐洲4800里都可以為什麼我們跟呂宋寶台差300里不可以嗎第二個就是我們可以在海外買到比台灣更便宜的電你也講了嘛"},{"start":20304.071,"end":20327.146,"text":"再就是你鼓勵企業所以這個完全就是你的構想但可能是不是話講太快了受到某種壓力所以忽然間又改口說這是我的草率發言我不相信一個經濟部長這麼大的官每天都在草率發言之前一下說要核電一下又不要然後現在又說要在海外設電廠然後又說不要我個人不太相信部長你是受到什麼壓力"},{"start":20328.971,"end":20350.854,"text":"報告委員就受到各位的這個指教你提出所以你就改口了喔哇所以你現在不做這個事喔我會這麼講就是說我確實我也反省沒有大家只是想知道細節大家只是想知道細節你有提到就是說2030年以前要達到所謂的淨零嘛"},{"start":20351.334,"end":20352.794,"text":"不是 報告委員 是這樣子我們現在不管做任何一個電廠都要6年"},{"start":20377.125,"end":20382.107,"text":"2030年提到這個目標的原因是因為你說你要在海外設電廠報紙不能夠代表我請問一下你這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":20400.844,"end":20406.981,"text":"你這個概念就是到海外設電廠而且你還研究了啊電也比較便宜啊電纜也沒問題這個概念是什麼時候發想出來的"},{"start":20408.308,"end":20436.923,"text":"其實我這個發想啊 孕育在我腦海裡面 多久了就是從這個美國他們4月份以後 4月份就發想了齁沒有 我大概在7月8月的時候 7月8月忽然間有這個構想也不是有這個構想嘛 這個是值得我這個研究部長 我的問題都這麼簡單 你不要把簡單的話講複雜好不好這樣我也害怕你跟你部內的人溝通欸 都簡單的問題都講那麼複雜你是4月看到美國嘛 7、8月開始發想嘛 今天把它講出來嘛"},{"start":20437.583,"end":20466.416,"text":"有一個雲豹企業6月17號就宣布要在菲律賓蓋那個光電廠那你有沒有受到雲豹的啟發沒有你知道雲豹這個事嗎剛剛才知道剛剛才知道哇那部長你講你知道雲豹今天股價盤中一度漲一趴欸所以你完全我報告委員齁所以你完全不是受到雲豹的啟發雲豹可能他有沒有經過我們投審會同意我不知道我回去要追這個條你要追這個條他沒有經過我投審會同意"},{"start":20467.716,"end":20491.994,"text":"對我們會對他產就就應該怎麼處理就怎麼處理他會怎麼處理啊我不知道我大概我們投審會是有個規範反正就是你不是因為雲報的關係啊扯這夠講完全都沒有啦那你瞭解菲律賓現在台灣有在那邊設電廠多少嗎這個跟菲律賓的電廠是完全沒有關係的事情不是啦我台氣因為你是鼓勵台灣企業去那邊設電廠嗎沒有沒有沒有那目前有沒有企業在那邊設電廠有沒有"},{"start":20493.544,"end":20510.83,"text":"目前應該是沒有沒有嘛就是萬一有的話結果你不去跟他買你還鼓勵人家去設再去跟他買也很奇怪嘛報告委員對基本上這樣子啦會在那邊設電廠也不會是台灣的廠商那你鼓勵外商去設喔那個是外國的廠商他們會去設啦"},{"start":20512.31,"end":20532.191,"text":"你不是鼓勵台灣的企業區那邊設什麼?我們去那邊大概就是光電阿就是我們自己比較熟悉的光電或是風電嘛但是電廠不一樣那你是鼓勵我們企業區那邊設什麼?設光電阿或是風電阿我的想法是這樣就是我們比較有能耐的那現在台灣有多少企業在那邊有光電跟風電?多少?"},{"start":20536.149,"end":20541.516,"text":"我在講嘛,我已經講過了,光電、風電跟地熱有多少?台灣企業在那邊做這個業務有多少?"},{"start":20543.581,"end":20566.269,"text":"我不清楚啊我不清楚你都不調查一下喔你不調查一下你就直接把這個構想講出來喔最後部長所以我跟你請教一下喔你有提到就是說要把高碳排氣液移到海外去啊說要乾坤大挪移這個是太天才了我跟你講我跟你講一個解決用電需求的方法你就把那個用電比較大的氣液把它趕到海外就好我們台灣就不會缺電了"},{"start":20568.432,"end":20578.305,"text":"怎麼會用這種方式來解決我們全世界都是在招商只有我們趕企業只是因為他碳排比較多那你要解決用電就把用電大戶趕走嗎"},{"start":20579.906,"end":20581.408,"text":"你講說要高碳牌企業移到海外"},{"start":20599.861,"end":20625.037,"text":"高碳排移到海外讓他在那個地方有競爭力阿那台灣的就業機會就少啦台灣的投資就少啦開玩笑我們台灣現在半導體跟AI的產業一直要進來阿這是高質化的這個產業對台灣的競爭力是提升的台灣的半導體產業進來不是因為被這些高碳排企業卡住嗎這兩回事是沒有錯是兩回事但是我們把這些產業"},{"start":20627.779,"end":20629.2,"text":"這個沒有競爭力其實很多是因為經濟規模的問題"},{"start":20651.474,"end":20672.001,"text":"因為很多是上下游之間的logistic問題所以這個cost的問題我是建議說讓你到國外去可以大帶小的帶到國外去具有競爭力這個對他來講是好處的啦留在台灣你的競爭力是減低的相當的抽象因為我時間到了就先這樣謝謝"},{"start":20681.873,"end":20682.934,"text":"請翁小玲委員質詢請郭部長"},{"start":20704.87,"end":20732.804,"text":"委員好是部長也辛苦了那麼這個大家今天其實都非常關心台灣的電力能源配比的問題但是呢看起來這個部長您現在還是有很多的想法那麼同時呢這個您的想法可能能夠想可能跟民進黨政府的這個想法也不盡相同那麼所以呢對於這個電力的能源配比怎麼樣才是個最好的最適的規模我在想這個未來可能還有很多的要"},{"start":20733.444,"end":20733.584,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":20754.876,"end":20764.602,"text":"其實在國外的這個MIT的教授他其實就做了一個各類發電方式的溫室氣體排放量的比較可以知道其實"},{"start":20766.59,"end":20770.153,"text":"用燃煤的溫室氣體的排放量是遠高於核能差不多多8倍那即便是像天然氣 對不起煤炭的碳排量是核能的68倍天然氣是核能的40倍那其他的像是光電等等的它同樣也是核能核電的大概2到4倍所以就溫室氣體排放量的這個角度來看"},{"start":20796.294,"end":20809.7,"text":"這個核電基本上還是最好的選擇雖然說民進黨政府基本上這個一直不願意去承認面對這個事實但我想請教部長是您知不知道在9月30號英國關閉了最後一座燃煤發電廠這個新聞您知道嗎"},{"start":20813.917,"end":20817.899,"text":"這個我知道那麼英國他們在2015年的時候他們的當時保守黨政府就已經確立了2025年之前要關閉高碳排的燃煤發電廠可是在此同時我們看民進黨政府當時做了什麼決定當時他們修法希望能夠在2025年台灣要進入非核家園當時就修了電業法"},{"start":20837.569,"end":20840.712,"text":"還好後來因為我們公投修了電業法把2025年非核家園的這個相關的規定給修掉了所以到現在我們還可以繼續再討論核電廠是不是可以繼續研議的這個議題不過就是無論如何但是看起來現在民黨政府好像也不打算要將核電廠研議部長您在您任內有可能"},{"start":20866.252,"end":20889.241,"text":"可以做到希望能夠宣告核電廠營業的這個政策嗎我想經濟部的立場是這樣的所有的電我們都希望特別是綠電那您剛才講的這個部分我想我們有三個前提第一個就是說全民有共識全民當然有高度的共識然後第二個是它是安全的"},{"start":20890.031,"end":20898.354,"text":"第三個是核廢料可以處理的這三個前提如果都能夠達到我們可以繼續往下來討論這三個前提其實全台灣都有共識而且我們都有高度的這個核能科技方面的素養來接下來我們看下一頁這個我們知道其實現在美國歐美國家的科技業龍頭其實大家都已經紛紛的這個採取要使用核電而且甚至連這個買購買這個相關的電力能源契約都已經改採清楚的指示"},{"start":20919.98,"end":20940.849,"text":"要採購的就是核電我希望就是台灣的這個經濟部能夠知道這個事情那接下來我要講就是說其實台灣能源不足的問題我覺得這已經是個事實而在能源不足的情況之下其實變得是人民要去承受隨時隨地都可能會缺電會停電的這樣的一個問題可是我們來看看請問我先請問部長您知道我們停電每停一度電"},{"start":20948.292,"end":20968.541,"text":"人民可以得到多少的補償這個我不知道您不知道那你想想看您覺得我們這樣子這個停電這個兩個小時我們可以得到多少的賠償我是不是請台電的總經理跟您報告趕快吧報告委員停電一個小時大概幾個"},{"start":20972.683,"end":20981.781,"text":"你也不清楚我告訴大家這停電一天一天24小時之內每一度電只賠1.33元"},{"start":20984.464,"end":21008.217,"text":"我告訴大家我們現在台電所訂定的這個消費性用電服務契約裡面的規定是非常非常不合理這還是只是類似補償的概念喔因為我這段時間裡面我沒有用到電所以我的電費是扣除可是讓人有沒有想到我們停電所造成的人民的財產的損失甚至有些可能還會影響到他的身體健康帶呼吸器的人他沒有電的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":21009.939,"end":21027.276,"text":"這個問題是非常嚴重的但我要講的就是消費性用電服務契約裡面規定極不合理而且大家知道如果說是因為台電的用電不足或者說自己故障等等這些原因也是賠償的補償的一點點的錢"},{"start":21030.038,"end":21043.519,"text":"這是極不合理變成說錯誤的能源政策所造成的缺點必須要全民來負擔那本期在這邊要給你們一個提示當然我們來看看德國你看德國是如何能夠真的走入變成是非核家園"},{"start":21044.932,"end":21047.613,"text":"他能夠保證全國不停電至少不大規模的停電如果停電的話怎麼辦德國的這個相關規定地壓供電電網連接使用辦法裡面規定如果說因為電力公司故意或重大過測行為造成用電戶的受損害不是只有補償電費而已喔還包含要賠償相關損害費用的還要負損害賠償責任"},{"start":21069.537,"end":21078.125,"text":"如果不是基於故意或重大過失 造成用電貨的財產損失他的賠償責任總而是定額賠償 每戶最高可以請求5000歐元的賠償5000歐元是什麼概念 就可以賠償17萬5000塊台幣這是非常高的 所以人家德國的電力公司有辦法做到這個程度 可是台電有辦法嗎"},{"start":21094.762,"end":21118.461,"text":"我希望台電要研議相關的這個契約如何的修正改正能夠符合人民的期待我們不要平白無故的因為政府錯誤的能源政策然後造成我們停電然後停電之後的所有的這個生命財產損失都要由我們人民自己去負責這是極不負責任的一個政策希望這個部長還有台電要重新研議謝謝"},{"start":21126.841,"end":21136.047,"text":"請明雪庭委員質詢謝謝主席 國部長有請請國部長"},{"start":21145.39,"end":21163.783,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性"},{"start":21164.443,"end":21191.099,"text":"有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎"},{"start":21192.316,"end":21218.056,"text":"因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔你這個金句蓮發言真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點"},{"start":21220.044,"end":21245.889,"text":"所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題"},{"start":21247.409,"end":21275.177,"text":"所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫沒有沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準"},{"start":21275.757,"end":21301.562,"text":"我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟瞭解"},{"start":21302.602,"end":21318.231,"text":"這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子的一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況"},{"start":21319.372,"end":21337.715,"text":"比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎"},{"start":21339.276,"end":21341.657,"text":"這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任"},{"start":21359.061,"end":21376.155,"text":"阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我的意思是說有沒有一個有沒有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣主張的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫"},{"start":21377.096,"end":21405.147,"text":"阿是我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權阿也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本阿"},{"start":21405.826,"end":21425.921,"text":"這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看譬如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套,比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?"},{"start":21427.322,"end":21451.658,"text":"我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣"},{"start":21452.378,"end":21477.925,"text":"鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講的第二個提醒嘛對不對 內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過 對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們"},{"start":21480.546,"end":21480.666,"text":"請突掀機委員質詢"},{"start":21520.268,"end":21522.289,"text":"那14號初期酒會你有說跟菲律賓購買那個菲律賓綠店的問題嗎"},{"start":21544.54,"end":21566.228,"text":"那剛好我們說剛好這雲報能源在今年6月17也發布新聞稿說要插旗菲律賓做太陽能產業那我想請問一下那是經濟部先有這個計畫來向菲律賓購買綠能還是看到雲報能源在菲律賓插旗之後我們經濟部才有這個計畫向菲律賓購買綠電"},{"start":21568.449,"end":21595.007,"text":"報告委員這兩件事情對我來講都不是我能夠了解的首先這個雲豹他去菲律賓我完全不知道那我必須回去以後因為他是台灣的企業他到菲律賓去投資如果金額太高我們投審是一定要核准他才可能出去這部分我也可能要這個後面要了解一下那您剛剛講說我去那邊在菲律賓這個買綠電的這件事情"},{"start":21598.51,"end":21619.352,"text":"這個事情我還是講在跟委員報告這個只是我的一個構想然後我們在過去在討論全球能源的這個在民主同盟的這個互相支援的情況之下那麼剛好菲律賓他們跟美國跟日本有一個旅送經濟走廊的一個合作計畫"},{"start":21620.453,"end":21638.864,"text":"那我就在想說這個有沒有機會台灣的廠商去那個地方參加他們的這個計畫那如果可以參加他們的計畫那麼我也就去請教了我們有沒有辦法有那個基建的這個參加他們的基建基礎建設計畫"},{"start":21640.625,"end":21667.967,"text":"所以照部長這樣講那看起來是雲報非常有遠見高瞻遠矚在經濟部要做宣布之前他就已經在6月17號先去那個先發布新聞稿在菲律賓做這個太陽能產業所以基本上他是在經濟部之前根本不知道經濟部要做只是他先去剛好不謀而合而合然後經濟部又宣布說要去菲律賓"},{"start":21668.507,"end":21669.508,"text":"我們目前不可能買雲豹的綠能"},{"start":21679.628,"end":21686.374,"text":"因為你說是他們要我這樣講表示其實針對這件事情你是深思熟慮然後才說要去菲律賓買這個綠能對不對"},{"start":21705.219,"end":21715.832,"text":"我不太習慣就是說大家認為我這樣是草率發言所以我還是認為說回想一下我確實"},{"start":21717.557,"end":21721.499,"text":"因為大家都認為說我沒有一個行動計畫沒有一個上位計畫然後我就要講做這件事情就是草率發言"},{"start":21742.968,"end":21762.012,"text":"這別人給我的定位是這個樣子不過說實在話因為講到雲暴能源這部分的問題剛好這個不謀而合對很多民眾覺得真的是太巧合難免給外界有太多遐想的空間有太多的疑慮那針對桃園這個8個月來今年8個月來請問部長知道這8個月來桃園跳電多少次嗎"},{"start":21773.493,"end":21801.961,"text":"我手上沒有這個詳細資料好那總經理知道了我們有請同仁統計啦但是我們也知道就是說數字上並沒有比去年要來的好好那我跟部長這邊說明一下據我們的資料顯示這1到8月份桃園就跳電247次也就是說平均一天要跳電一次以上而且昨天也大跳電"},{"start":21802.901,"end":21819.594,"text":"中立平政一個大停電2700多戶受影響那針對這部分那個部長你也是我們基層企業出身那你想想看這種常常跳電停電對企業影響多大而且很多都是民生用電會不會太過於頻繁"},{"start":21823.794,"end":21848.851,"text":"這部分我們會深入的去研究為什麼會如這個委員所指教的這部分但是這個它有一個共同的我們過去有一個研究就是說當人口增加然後用電增加的地區是比較容易這個跳天部長剛好你有講因為在總諮詢的時候你也是這樣子回答其實據我們了解你看一下我們的"},{"start":21850.311,"end":21877.908,"text":"數據顯示台電主要停跳電事故的原因其實你看一下其實最大的原因還是台電自己的設備故障你看他跳電200多次有111次都是台電自己的設備所以其實並不是台電常常回復外力所致看起來都是台電自己內部設備故障的問題所以針對這部分我記得部長你有回復說在明年年"},{"start":21878.789,"end":21906.814,"text":"就是中旬以前我們尤其我們桃園沿海地方這電網你要全部來改善來更新對不對是跟委員報告因為你也知道這個電網的那個數量尤其是配電最底層接到用戶這邊的明年中旬以前有沒有辦法去改善我們持續在持續在改善尤其這一些紅區民眾比較關心我希望說那個部長要記得明年中旬以前來改善然後針對這個"},{"start":21908.214,"end":21931.225,"text":"部長有講針對桃園簽入人口用電增加的問題造成這個停跳電的問題當然我們看一下數據顯示桃園市現在人口是增加最多沒有錯而且他是目前人口成長率最高的一個縣市所以部長說人口增加用電增加造成他停跳電可是我們再看下一個數據從109年到113年"},{"start":21935.807,"end":21950.832,"text":"這麼多年來其實你看喔我們人口雖然增加可是台電給我們的用電並沒有增加也就是說雖然人口增加可是用電並沒有增加然後還是造成停跳電變成跟部長的說法好像不太一樣"},{"start":21953.851,"end":21972.723,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們的那個城市那個都市一直在成長某些地區有人人口增加但是某些地區事實上是部分是降低的所以我的整個電網事實上針對新增加的區域我還是要持續再擴建所以是總量是這樣看對所以你看這個數據其實你看我們112年用電還比111年112年比111年110年少而且我們今年1到8月的"},{"start":21981.628,"end":21995.999,"text":"比同期的用電也沒有增加可是我不知道為什麼跳電增加那麼多後來我們針對台電的統計在2023年我們北部的用電量是931億度但是我們北部的發電量"},{"start":21996.9,"end":22013.197,"text":"只有750億度也就是說我們北部其實短缺200億度所以經過我們了解就是因為南電北送才造成線路的損耗而且我們這個電力的損耗損耗6.41度相當我們人民就損失了23億元的電費"},{"start":22018.943,"end":22044.165,"text":"跟委員報告桃園地區因為大部分都是屬於高壓用戶就是工廠蠻多的這些工廠在去年跟前年大概是因為景氣比較不好所以它用電下降大概是這個因素造成所以我要跟部長總經理來提醒一下目前看起來真的就是我們北部的電就是不夠用所以你南電北送你造成很大的損耗而且你這個"},{"start":22045.826,"end":22046.346,"text":"請何信春委員質詢"},{"start":22078.302,"end":22078.543,"text":"謝謝張維﹖我們請郭部長"},{"start":22089.488,"end":22115.683,"text":"委員好部長好這個延續剛剛這個突圍言我是支持要區域發電所以我們這個整體的電網的一個更新還有整個電網的重新規劃設計這是一定要走的方向那第二個因為我們現在除了這個電網的部分還有我們的電力夠不夠的部分都有很多民眾的質疑那我想我們是有信心的"},{"start":22116.644,"end":22119.766,"text":"臺灣大部分九成以上都是中小企業傳統工業那傳統工業的"},{"start":22146.386,"end":22146.406,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":22164.735,"end":22164.755,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":22183.254,"end":22208.529,"text":"他們也希望能夠有一個綠能的一個用電那但是呢我不知道部長知不知道在所謂的特定工廠不管是已經申請了或是正在申請中的現在數萬家的這些特定工廠及未來的特定工廠那他們呢能不能做所謂的屋頂上的一個綠能發電光電發電現在我們的政策推動到哪裡了"},{"start":22209.894,"end":22224.685,"text":"報告委員就我所了解的部分這個工廠的屋頂設置太陽能光電這是會持續的會持續我知道啊我現在就是要問你啊第一個在工業區裡面是你好掌握的也好推動的那我知道成效不錯"},{"start":22226.847,"end":22247.657,"text":"現在正在進行當中正在申請特定工廠的或者是已經申請到特定工廠的那這些相對規模小相對是在整個產業鏈裡面的中下游的加工廠商他們面臨到的是什麼建築物的問題我們現在的建築物到底允不允許讓他們在他們的屋頂上面蓋光電面板"},{"start":22248.77,"end":22264.25,"text":"這個要看我這個建築的結構工程師就是說我沒有辦法判斷他是不是能夠承載那個太陽能電所以之前我們曾經要求過經濟部要第一個什麼如果他的耐震補強結構是OK的"},{"start":22266.733,"end":22289.213,"text":"我們應該用什麼方式來輔導要求他們做所謂屋頂上的報告委員我想這個整體在我們的深度節能的這個方案裡面應該會綜合的考量來幫助中小微企業能夠節能跟減碳我相信署長是不是比較知道我現在在問的這個政策方向第一個就是特定工廠回答你"},{"start":22289.913,"end":22291.394,"text":"正在申請中的數萬家我們未來"},{"start":22320.173,"end":22341.416,"text":"程序才能夠去符合你們的要求對這就跟委員報告說因為你的這個太陽能上去之後你的建物本身要能夠耐受20年以上那我就問你啦如果如果啦齁在你們認為說耐震補強是結構是安全的情況之下他就可以架設這個就用技師來做簽證是"},{"start":22342.97,"end":22369.779,"text":"那目前我們現在有總共全台灣有多少家你知道嗎我這邊還沒有相關的統計資料我現在就是要拜託你啦一定要協助的阿是不是那現在他們實務面上碰到最大的問題是什麼就是剛剛部長跟署長你講的阿這個建築物本身的耐震結構安全的問題那"},{"start":22371.22,"end":22371.3,"text":"我們會這樣做"},{"start":22397.279,"end":22413.754,"text":"不然我現在幫你擔心著很多的這個中小企業微型企業他依循的這個政府的這個法令來申請這個特定工廠那我也提出改善計畫但是能不能做得到那最後中央地方對於這個整個執法規的一個認知"},{"start":22416.596,"end":22442.472,"text":"有沒有一致性我現在是先跟部長您說是各地方政府的認定是沒有一致性這個你可以問一下經濟部總辦我們中小微這個署大概會來我們的中企署會來協助這些中小微的公司取得這樣的一個協助我希望第一個會後給我這個加速現在的一個基本的資料已經有的加速跟"},{"start":22444.02,"end":22453.697,"text":"會後再給我好不好第二個我們希望設定一個時程表那能夠呢有效率的推進跟協助可以嗎可以好謝謝"},{"start":22462.303,"end":22468.645,"text":"請馬文君委員不在﹖請廖先祥委員不在﹖請顏寬恒委員不在﹖請林思敏委員不在﹖請羅明才委員不在﹖請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":22491.078,"end":22494.103,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們郭部長請郭部長委員好部長午安午安"},{"start":22503.701,"end":22531.082,"text":"本席有幾次跟部長在一起討論一些事情的時候聽到部長談到我們整個台灣的發展那個眼睛都發亮所以我想部長很多的想法都是超前部署的觀念但是在這邊我們也要替屏東縣來請命部長是屏東人所以對屏東的發展也有一份責任要來盡是部長支持這樣的論調嗎支持"},{"start":22532.283,"end":22552.923,"text":"部長我想我們9月10號我們跟屏東縣政府舉辦了一個南台灣的科技論壇有提到一個所謂的南高屏大矽谷的一個計畫我想要發展這個所謂的大矽谷計畫必須要有土地要解決水跟電的問題請教部長目前屏東的所謂的一個產業園區的一個狀況部長有掌握嗎有"},{"start":22558.988,"end":22578.347,"text":"我有在了解這個但是就本席的了解目前我們的產業園區的出租率非常的高那土地可能面對未來即使像有一些很著名的科技大廠要來的時候可能我們面臨無地可用的一個困境那針對這個部分因為我們現在"},{"start":22579.208,"end":22581.61,"text":"報告委員我想這個我們在院裡面討論的時候我們有跟國科會有跟國發會共同在討論但是您剛才所說的這個南州崁嶺這一個好像"},{"start":22606.266,"end":22623.718,"text":"不是我們現在目前在討論的部分部長本期的意思是說因為現在我們平北包含我們有科學園區有二代交通促進區有農科未來一定都會面臨飽和飽和之後我們即使未來需要再招商的時候我們有沒有什麼其他的副案"},{"start":22624.771,"end":22624.911,"text":"主席"},{"start":22639.665,"end":22656.375,"text":"可能這些作業人員都要為國融或是為別的官司來所以溝通是優先重要我個人的建議這是要經濟來建設這溝通的問題我們都一定會努力來改善但是問題這也要同步變形你同時也要面對土地水跟電的問題都要一併來操心複數是謝謝委員我們這個水跟電的部分我們都在檢討"},{"start":22667.682,"end":22671.165,"text":"這部份 水利署現在這個部份我是不是請水利署跟你報告一下整個案子我們目前已經送到行政院還在審 在國發會還在審查 對"},{"start":22697.679,"end":22714.25,"text":"那因為本席知道這個到時候我們的縣政府的財力負擔也相當的重,這部長能不能來幫忙啊?這個,對啊,我們可以將政府當中的道具是什麼?我應該是會幫忙啦,因為我小時候住這裡"},{"start":22719.615,"end":22733.948,"text":"部長另外就是針對我們的這個一個綠能的一個政策我想今天有很多的立委有提出這樣一個質疑那針對我們目前本席有發現的一個問題我們針對所謂一個不利耕地的一個綠能開發"},{"start":22735.649,"end":22739.791,"text":"現在報告委員我們這部分跟農業部還有跟法務部大概我們三個部門大概有充分的這個溝通跟了解未來"},{"start":22759.517,"end":22760.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22790.218,"end":22801.144,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分像你說的如果沒有一個改靈格的規範可能大家都會做到每個人做不一樣的方式所以這部分我們會加速來把這個規範把它做好讓大家都可以按照這個規範來遵行"},{"start":22813.952,"end":22829.873,"text":"部長最後本席還是針對我們颱風期間您到屏東來看災的時候本席提出來針對屏東的抽水站老舊的一個問題還有我們養殖專區這個電纜全面地下化的問題希望我們盡快提出一個對策"},{"start":22831.505,"end":22848.219,"text":"是,這個抽水站應該是可以如期進行那這個地下化的部分我們必須要再評估因為那個地下化萬一水進去的時候再維修更慘所以這個要怎麼做比較好我相信台電、我們內部都有在檢討,靠年底會向委員報告"},{"start":22854.421,"end":22854.441,"text":"部長"},{"start":22879.07,"end":22881.652,"text":"請王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在 請林德福 林德福"},{"start":22898.693,"end":22917.741,"text":"臨德府委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在請黃珊珊黃珊珊黃珊珊委員不在請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在請傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在請徐信英委員諮詢"},{"start":22926.697,"end":22928.258,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請經濟部長"},{"start":22937.213,"end":22961.474,"text":"委員好部長好部長您辛苦了今天呢會有那麼多委員接力的來質詢您應該跟您近期的發言有關是對那本席在這邊呢質詢時間給我的時間不長但是本席有幾個點要特別的跟部長來提出質詢首先第一個"},{"start":22962.435,"end":22972.998,"text":"部長您對有發言對於未來兩年電價應該不至於調漲的說法本席覺得您過於自信您個人覺得呢我想我對自己一向是很有自信所以這個你也承認你過於自信本席在這邊就教部長"},{"start":22989.562,"end":23011.833,"text":"到今年8月,您知道台電的發電成本每度是多少錢?中和的嗎?對,平均發電成本到今年8月,現在10月是多少?報告委員,我們的發電成本大概接近4塊錢,3塊9多了"},{"start":23017.169,"end":23044.946,"text":"本席手上拿到的資料購電我們兩個費用一個是發電還有其他的產銷光發電的部分是3.06好對這個包含發電還有你說購電那平均嘛平均我們每一度電你們的成本"},{"start":23046.423,"end":23075.324,"text":"三塊多嘛是那在去年去年有全國電力資源供需報告有提到2025年再生能源發電的比重會達到15%那到2026年11月整個再生能源的比重達到20%那未來將大力擴展的太陽能發電成本是多少太陽能發電成本"},{"start":23076.411,"end":23082.515,"text":"平均是多少目前我們這邊的數字是大概4.88元對嘛 4.88嘛那風力發電呢"},{"start":23086.875,"end":23104.675,"text":"風力發電因為有離岸的那個部分有前高後低所以稍微高了6塊多對嘛6塊所以部長您這個大企業家你聽我們現在平均3塊多4塊可是我們未來要大力增加的我們的發電來源"},{"start":23106.937,"end":23124.657,"text":"他的成本都比現在的多出這麼多好那有可能你因為過很有自信嘛所以我本心也覺得你有可能不會漲電價但是呢你可能就是撥補你撥補的整個的這個費用還不是全民承擔"},{"start":23128.301,"end":23142.177,"text":"所以這一塊本席覺得您真的過於自信還有再來更重要的是我相信很多委員都在質疑啊我們目前政府的能源政策真的要非常審慎的評估啊"},{"start":23142.998,"end":23171.125,"text":"因為現在的用電尤其我們希望綠電嘛那本席之前也有特別提出你綠電的情況會未來極有可能你日間OK你夜間用電需求越來越高會出現夜間缺電的情況那你夜間缺電的情況下你就變成為了要有穩定所以你可能就會用這個火力發電"},{"start":23172.165,"end":23173.247,"text":"產業用電的成長"},{"start":23187.987,"end":23211.333,"text":"不斷的成長你用供電的穩定性不夠再者產業用電的成長我在這裡要給部長部長您是科技業的這個大老闆出身您應該瞭解我們現在民進黨政府提到是AI的這個行政院團隊未來在台灣很多地方"},{"start":23212.333,"end":23224.723,"text":"非常多的科技產業我看到我們不管南部、中部、北部甚至本席的新竹我們有大矽谷計畫我們整個科技不斷的成長未來的用電絕對成長那更重要的有一個很重要的數字"},{"start":23229.286,"end":23250.625,"text":"你AI進入AI時代之後有沒有評估過AI時代需要用電量會是我們現況的幾倍先不含這麼多科技產業的大力的投入不好意思主席再給我一兩分鐘這個非常非常重要你們有沒有評估過進入AI我們的用電量是幾倍"},{"start":23252.079,"end":23278.508,"text":"你們提得出這個數字嗎?好 請說 簡單因為最近這一段時間整個AI蓬勃發展所以我們台電在估計你就直接告訴我嘛未來進入AI時代你的評估我們的用電量跟現在是幾倍成長我們是沒有到幾倍這麼多啦就是我們整體的台灣的用電量整體台灣的用電量來算那本來是我們原來預估的成長是1.8%左右那我們現在規劃將近到"},{"start":23280.269,"end":23280.63,"text":"本席說明第一個"},{"start":23295.586,"end":23312.224,"text":"你伺服器現在的伺服器跟AI的伺服器差別就增加1.6倍這個1.6倍那就算了現在大家都知道我就以AI它最大的特性就是不斷的耗電我在這裡也已經質詢過部長"},{"start":23313.846,"end":23336.347,"text":"那AI現在大家對AI不是那麼了解但是ChatGPD大家很清楚各位我們用Google我們同樣一個問題去詢問Google用Google查詢跟用ChatGPD這個有數據這是國際能源署的估算就一個小小的詢問"},{"start":23337.868,"end":23364.445,"text":"差了10倍他的用電量是10倍未來未來你看有多少人一天國人有多少人他google轉成用CHAT GPT還有所有的產業科技產業甚至連我們公家機關很多都在講未來怎麼用AI你們不可以忽視AI他最大的特性就是用電量非常非常大"},{"start":23365.285,"end":23392.85,"text":"所以本席非常的憂心能源政策絕對不是像部長還有我們台電董事長說的絕對不是這樣報告委員我們都知道你們都知道新的IDC的伺服器140kW一個機櫃一個機櫃價值1億一個機櫃價值1億所以這個量的成長我們也都想過以這樣貴的一個那個IDC的一個機櫃它的成長量初期是不會大但是中間"},{"start":23393.83,"end":23413.937,"text":"當然啊科技一直進步就像我們過去很多東西很貴很快他就馬上的這個會減等於說整個價格就盪下來未來就是AI的時代我沒有準備你們目前看不到你們的準備啊你們現在的用電"},{"start":23415.257,"end":23440.706,"text":"整個是不夠的我們的能源政策如果這樣繼續下去你的綠能也不夠那你綠能不夠你就是用火力發電不管燃煤燃氣造成很大的污染所以這個是台灣的隱憂所以你們不要用口號治國也千萬不要等於是這個自欺欺人我們民眾都不相信啊"},{"start":23442.572,"end":23458.909,"text":"報告委員我想您所指教的部分我們都會深刻的這個來檢討那麼我是因為你有你知道嘛我從業界來對本身你也科技業嘛我們會loading的去check"},{"start":23459.329,"end":23459.629,"text":"好,OK"},{"start":23491.557,"end":23517.002,"text":"當即發言的委員除了不在場外其他的均已發言完畢我們詢答結束有04名委員陳冠廷委員王宏威委員傅坤祺委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢跟未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程已經處理完畢大家辛苦了現在散會"},{"start":23525.6,"end":23529.841,"text":"我先講去來去有意義"},{"start":23583.669,"end":23583.861,"text":"本集完"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","委員發言時間":"08:31:47 - 15:03:00"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}