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謝謝主席 本席有請海基會董事長 吳董事長吳董事長有請好"},{"start":25.719,"end":48.207,"text":"董事長好剛剛您在業務報告的時候還有剛剛吳啟明委員質詢的時候您都親口的說出了兩岸對話的管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通那本席想要請教那是誰授意你傳話沒有人授意我傳話"},{"start":54.776,"end":80.062,"text":"沒有人授意你傳話 你說傳話我沒有主動要人家去傳話傳話人都是來主動來找我的我認為這對兩岸合作有幫助你是說傳話人主動找你 他主動找你沒有人要你傳話 所以我們中央政府沒有人要你去傳話對 沒有那你怎麼知道傳話管道暢通我說"},{"start":83.88,"end":107.808,"text":"很多人基於好意 基於協助的意思主動找我 說他們可以幫忙傳話好 那你認為可以傳話嗎兩岸之間可以傳話嗎這個事情很重要 你要讓我完整的表達可是你要掌握時間 我們時間有限你盡量重點好不好"},{"start":112.256,"end":137.224,"text":"我絕對要言不凡我說沒有人唆遣我跟對方傳話可是因為我認為對話的管道中斷的情況之下那麼有人傳話只有好處沒有壞處不不不兩岸怎麼可以暗度成倉絕對不能傳話"},{"start":139.981,"end":154.208,"text":"兩岸不能夠有一條不透明不合法不負責任的兩岸密室協商管道絕對不行那董事長請您先暫停就先等一下我們請邱主委好不好邱主委有請邱主委你好邱主委請問兩岸之間可以用傳話嗎"},{"start":165.066,"end":186.618,"text":"委員是這樣的 我想我們兩岸過去都有你不要浪費我時間 我時間真的不多啦 好不好我們既有的溝通聯繫機制 我們都維持住啦那包括我們 那我就請問你可以私下傳話嗎兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎 請你回答本席我想我們有很多的學者去大陸"},{"start":187.774,"end":203.783,"text":"看到中國大陸的你不能這樣兩岸到底可以私下傳話的行為嗎你就回答可以嗎我想他們有很多的建議建議歸建議我現在在問你兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎"},{"start":208.094,"end":220.04,"text":"連這個都沒辦法回答不是你講那個私下傳話是什麼意思是法律的定義還是說我們日常兩岸互動的日常那如果是兩岸互動的日常當然"},{"start":224.022,"end":243.753,"text":"互動那不叫傳話因為這個出自於我們海基會董事長說兩岸的溝通管道中斷對話兩岸的對話管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通這件事嚴重啊所以我針對你我就針對董事長這句話你覺得OK嗎"},{"start":246.734,"end":264.72,"text":"台商朋友像海基會經常接受很多台商朋友他們都會反映中國大陸的一些想法你接受反映這個不叫傳話也有很多的學者也有很多工協會的理事長負責人你不要再浪費本席的時間了所以政府有沒有授權傳話我們截至目前為沒有官方授權的"},{"start":271.226,"end":285.465,"text":"但是他們熱心跟你講這個是很多來避免誤解誤判我們要肯定兩岸之間你是指對岸官方來講不是我們官方傳話過去是哪一個"},{"start":286.325,"end":314.446,"text":"我是說這一種很自然的來給你反映意見的來傳對岸的想法這個很多啦但是沒有我們授權叫他去我們並沒有授權所以本席在這裡就是要釐清因為剛剛董事長在業務報告還有就是在報告的時候還有答詢的時候就一直強調所以你應該也認同兩岸之間不能夠有密室協商吧"},{"start":315.006,"end":331.911,"text":"那當然所以民進黨也不能施設任何所有的傳達我們都要體制透明否則我們怎麼知道請你私下傳某件事結果你講另外一件事而且所謂的賣台這個就是賣台"},{"start":333.933,"end":346.6,"text":"我們也很想知道賴清德總統說大公司併購小公司這件事是不是已經有私下在互相傳話"},{"start":348.708,"end":375.08,"text":"有沒有 我想委員就不要過度的衍生不必要的解讀其實他就是兩岸之間互動我們覺得應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重而不要你提出一個前提我現在在問說你私下傳話你不能私下傳話沒有這個問題 也沒有授權的問題所以沒有政府授權傳話這件事"},{"start":378.038,"end":405.292,"text":"有沒有 截至目前為止是沒有授權的那未來也不可以吧要看情勢的發展只要對國家有利對兩岸有利要看情勢的發展所以對兩岸有利國家有利你們就可以密室協商喔當然我們會有一定的程序你可能忘記了民進黨政府多次強調兩岸無密室協商結果入委會主委說這個要看情勢而定"},{"start":405.712,"end":407.795,"text":"第四條之四未經同意不得與大陸地區的機關法人團體或其他機構協商簽署"},{"start":426.417,"end":439.553,"text":"協議所以你這個絕對不能密室協商沒有這個空間沒有密室協商一定是法治作業的你不能說看情況未來不管什麼情況都要體制透明而且要受到整個我們的監督"},{"start":440.49,"end":467.552,"text":"這是必然的最後浪費我真的蠻多時間再來就是賴總統最近有指示國安團隊要對在野黨簡報國安情勢本席對這點要肯定這是正確的一步但是我們認為這一步不能停留在形式你要能夠深化成為制度化的朝野安全對話機制"},{"start":469.213,"end":490.238,"text":"那所以有沒有考慮要建立一個國安共識平台跟委員報告這個目前有關於這個像我們在野黨領袖做這個國安簡報目前是由我們國安會正在作業當中我會把這個委員的意見跟他們反映"},{"start":491.439,"end":508.191,"text":"我們也很希望朝野之間我們在分歧中找到團結我們國安一定是朝野一致面對不分藍綠好大家有共識最後最後因為剛剛吳清明委員也有提到那我想很多區域委員都有碰到"},{"start":509.351,"end":523.605,"text":"現在主委口口聲聲要捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度我們沒有反對這個但是你有沒有覺得做法上很擾民有沒有感受到有沒有接受到這樣很多的有我也跟委員這個確實是"},{"start":525.426,"end":552.278,"text":"超過30年來的這個整個問題我們一起解決其實快要到最後面了我們同意要用關懷柔性的方式完整的配套措施我們會主動我們現在除了打電話進來解決之外我們現在還要主動走出去很多的這方面的座談會來舉辦你那個制度做法執行面可不可以想得更完善是是是我們朝這個方面來努力好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時39分）謝謝主席，本席有請海基會吳董事長。"],["主席：吳董事長有請。"],["吳董事長豊山：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：董事長好。剛剛您在業務報告還有吳琪銘委員質詢的時候，您都親口說出了兩岸對話的管道中斷，但是傳話的管道暢通。那本席想要請教，是誰授意你傳話？"],["吳董事長豊山：沒有人授意我傳話，我沒有主動……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有人授意你傳話，你說「傳話」？"],["吳董事長豊山：我沒有主動要人家去傳話，傳話的人都是主動來找我的，我認為這對兩岸合作有幫助……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是說傳話人主動找你，那是……他主動找你，沒有人要你傳話，所以我們中央政府沒有人要你去傳話？"],["吳董事長豊山：對，沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你怎麼知道傳話管道暢通？"],["吳董事長豊山：我說很多人基於好意、基於協助的意思，主動找我說他們可以幫忙傳話。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你認為……"],["吳董事長豊山：那有些是對方要求他……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你認為可以傳話嗎？兩岸之間可以傳話嗎？"],["吳董事長豊山：這個事情很重要，你要讓我完整地表達，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是你要掌握時間，我們時間有限。"],["吳董事長豊山：你一講話我不插斷，我講話你也不插斷，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，你儘量講重點，好不好？"],["吳董事長豊山：……我說沒有人授權我跟對方傳話，可是我認為，在對話的管道中斷的情況之下，那麼有人傳話只有好處，沒有壞處。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不、不、不，兩岸怎麼可以暗渡陳倉！絕對不能傳話。兩岸不能夠有一條不透明、不合法、不負責任的兩岸密室協商管道，絕對不行！董事長，請您先……"],["吳董事長豊山：七十幾年來就是這個樣子啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：暫停，就先等一下。我們請邱主委，好不好？"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：邱主委，請問兩岸之間可以用傳話嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，是這樣的，我想兩岸過去都有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要浪費我的時間，我時間真的不多，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：既有的溝通聯繫機制我們都維持住了，包括我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我就請問你可以私下傳話嗎？兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？請你回答本席。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們有很多學者去大陸，看到中國大陸的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能……兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？你就回答，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：他們有很多建議，包括臺商……"],["徐委員欣瑩：建議歸建議，我現在在問你，兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：要看……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你連這個都沒有辦法回答啊？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是，你講的那個私下傳話是什麼意思，是法律的定義還是兩岸互動的日常？如果是兩岸互動……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然是……"],["邱主任委員垂正：互動的日常……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，當然……互動那不叫傳話，因為這個出自於我們海基會董事長說，兩岸的對話管道中斷，但是傳話的管道暢通。這件事嚴重啊！所以我就針對……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：董事長這句話，你覺得OK嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：包括非常多的臺商朋友，像海基會經常接受很多臺商朋友……他們都會反映中國大陸的一些想法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接受反映，這個不叫傳話。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，有很多學者，也有很多公協會的理事長、負責人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要再浪費本席的時間了，所以政府有沒有授權傳話？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們截至目前為止沒有官方授權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是他們熱心跟你講，這個是很多，來避免誤解、誤判，我們要肯定，兩岸之間……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是指對岸官方來講，不是我們官方傳話過去，是哪一個？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我是說這一種很自然地來跟你反映意見的、來傳對岸的想法，這個很多。但是沒有我們授權叫他去，我們並沒有授權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以本席在這裡就是要釐清，因為剛剛董事長在業務報告還有答詢的時候就一直強調。所以你應該也認同兩岸之間不能夠有密室協商吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：那當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：嗯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以民進黨也不能私設任何……所有的傳達，我們都要體制透明，否則我們怎麼知道，請你私下傳某件事，結果你講另外一件事，所謂的賣臺，這個就是賣臺。那我們也很想知道，賴清德總統說大公司併購小公司，這一件事是不是已經有私下在互相傳話，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想委員就不要過度地延伸……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我也不想。"],["邱主任委員垂正：也不做不必要的解讀。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不了解，所以我請你回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：其實就是兩岸之間互動，我們覺得應該要對等、尊嚴、相互尊重，而不要說你提出一個前提……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你現在講對了，我現在在問你私下傳話，你不能私下傳話嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有、沒有這個問題，也沒有授權的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以沒有政府授權傳話這件事，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：截至目前為止是沒有授權的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那未來也不可以吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：要看情勢的發展，只要對國家有利、對兩岸有利，要看情勢的發展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以對兩岸有利、國家有利，你們就可以密室協商喔？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然我們會有一定的程序。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可能忘記了，民進黨政府多次強調兩岸無密室協商，結果陸委會主委說這個要看情勢而定，這個……"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然你一定要把法制作業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的立場跟態度，你真的要搞清楚。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道您的意思……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有兩岸人民……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是我們不可能做到密室協商。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩岸人民關係條例，我相信你很清楚，第四條之四，未經同意，不得與大陸地區的機關、法人團體或其他機構協商簽署協議，所以你絕對不能密室協商。"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有這個空間，沒有密室協商，一定是法制作業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不能說看情況，未來不管什麼情況都要體制透明，而且要受到我們整個的監督。"],["邱主任委員垂正：這是必然的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，賴總統最近有指示，國安團隊要對在野黨進行國安情勢的簡報。本席對這一點要予以肯定，這是正確的一步。但是我們認為，這一步不能停留在形式上，應該要深化，成為制度化的朝野安全對話機制。所以朝野之間有沒有考慮建立一個國安共識平台？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，有關向我們在野黨領袖進行國安簡報，現在國安會正在作業當中，我會把委員的意見跟他們反映。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。我們也很希望，朝野之間能在分歧中找到團結。我們的國家安全，一定是朝野一致面對、不分藍綠，大家有共識。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，因為剛剛吳琪銘委員也有提到，我想很多區域委員都有碰到這個問題。現在主委口口聲聲說要捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度，我們並不反對這個立場，但是你有沒有覺得做法上很擾民？有沒有感受到？有沒有接收到這樣的反映？應該要改進吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，跟委員報告，這確實是超過三十年來的問題，我們要一起解決，現在也快要進入最後階段了。我們同意用關懷、柔性的方式，搭配完整的配套措施。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不要造成他們的困擾。"],["邱主任委員垂正：現在我們除了接受民眾打電話進來解決之外，也會主動走出去，舉辦很多這方面的座談會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：制度、做法及執行面，可不可以想得更完善？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們朝這個方向來努力，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}