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我請莊部長來 莊部長請"},{"start":9.891,"end":31.898,"text":"總部長我今天跟你談另外一個問題這九大公園卡庫董事長總經理都是你這邊所指派的我相信你也一定經過相當的了解調查熟視才會指派他們這個前幾天啊一營宜蘭分行"},{"start":33.291,"end":60.087,"text":"被當地刑警大隊進去搜查那有帶走他們的婦女還有四個行員所以他們因為他們涉及跟詐騙集團有勾結那總共光已經查到的案子有三十幾個受害人三個詐騙集團在那邊開了這個戶頭那我覺得很奇怪在先前啊"},{"start":61.988,"end":84.645,"text":"這三個公司的名下的戶頭都已經是警示戶為什麼這麼好的第一銀行竟然還給警示戶繼續開戶這不是很奇怪照說警示戶不但不能給他開戶而且要通報警方"},{"start":85.908,"end":111.165,"text":"所以我想了解的是這件事情你有沒有要求第一銀行針對這些開戶的流程去做一些是不是這些有疏失然後我才想了解第一銀行的情況我認為監督管理考核在第一銀行都出了問題竟然啊竟然上個禮拜"},{"start":113.689,"end":130.021,"text":"上三個月上三個月今年三月更大的台灣銀行台灣銀行竟然有兩個分行都是都是副理局還有行員涉入"},{"start":131.141,"end":151.656,"text":"都在台北 松山分行 仁愛分行這件事我想你應該知道涉及的金額高達2200萬而被逮獲的中間人他竟然就暗示說到這些行去開戶啊可以有回扣那"},{"start":154.653,"end":175.881,"text":"台銀這個涉及的金額更可怕它匯出匯出國外的金額竟然高達一億多元而裡面有一千萬啊竟然是匯到第一銀行剛才我講的上禮拜出事的這個行的同一個詐騙戶頭天啊天啊"},{"start":179.158,"end":180.359,"text":"壞到同一個公司帳號詐騙戶的這個警視戶所以我覺得這實在是很荒唐啦很荒唐齁那麼"},{"start":193.971,"end":220.266,"text":"那個部長你先說這個你瞭解不瞭解這件事有關台銀這個事情瞭解然後剛剛2200萬已經金管會是重罰那對於相關內部的人員包含這兩個行員這兩個行員其實是夫妻關係我在跟金管會談事情為什麼先找你談因為這九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是你派的義營董事長總經理有來嗎有請起立一下好不好"},{"start":222.52,"end":236.171,"text":"那個 你們是模範銀行欸天啊 在我心目中啊為什麼你看到非常高你是模範銀行我們儘管他還特別把ESG這麼重大的這個業務交由你們來推動欸台灣銀行有來嗎 董事長 總經理你們是龍頭銀行欸"},{"start":250.845,"end":271.059,"text":"一個龍頭銀郎 一個模範銀郎你們竟然出這樣子的事情好了這個照說啊要追究 要檢討警視庫的開戶流程要追查他們有沒有疏忽或者不法這個責任應該由總行由總行來專責監理單位結果到現在為止"},{"start":279.713,"end":288.888,"text":"我們整個公營銀行 公營行庫 九大公營行庫只有兆豐銀行啦他是有總行人家他設一個專責監理單位"},{"start":291.044,"end":311.23,"text":"所以那個部長是不是就這個你要要求九大公營航庫在總航要設置監禮單位監禮各分航針對針對這些警事戶的開戶流程做檢討查一查他們是不是有疏忽甚至不法可不可以我覺得應該是這樣做是"},{"start":314.687,"end":339.979,"text":"你知道那個台英董事長總經理我為什麼讓你站起來你知道你們先前啊你們先前答覆我你們回覆各單位你們都還跟這個治安單位說你們啊每半年你們就會執行員工違常狀況的清查你們說藉由觀察啦喔你們超厲害的你"},{"start":341.059,"end":354.709,"text":"你們算命嗎 你觀察 查研觀測就可以看到是這樣嗎都不用看他們開戶的流程 你觀察這些航員的外觀神色就可以知道是這樣嗎都不用看看他們經手的資料嗎他們該監管的開戶流程嗎"},{"start":365.592,"end":371.856,"text":"好啦 你們四位都是金融的長輩份齁我不為難你們 請坐請坐所以 部長我要跟你提的就是現在我們九大公營行庫應該來做模範的時候嘿 這一次打詐司法通過以後齁反而在做模範的都是民營銀行那一家啊"},{"start":393.752,"end":414.152,"text":"我最常說他的 就鼠寮三兄弟的大哥他背後的老闆 這個第一信託硬朗當時他的警示物最多我就說 欸 那個中國信託我說中國信託跟詐騙集團 We are family"},{"start":416.099,"end":439.685,"text":"結果這樣子跟他以後人家不到半年三四個月你看他們現在攔阻了28億元光是成立一個AI神盾聯防互幫金控也不遑多讓也弄了一個鷹眼國泰釋法也推了國泰盾"},{"start":441.078,"end":468.452,"text":"上半年他們主詐的金額12億元啦所以最主要設這些就是可以防止內神通外鬼所以部長我要求是不是你應該回去好好的要求公股銀行仿效民間銀行那麼引進AI還有在總行設專責的監獄單位可不可以"},{"start":469.465,"end":484.395,"text":"委員對於好的做法我們一定要引進來然後看能不能再做更為的精進我想委員這個提示我們可以會後就來做要求好謝謝那時間暫停你請回我請彭主委主委請"},{"start":490.046,"end":510.398,"text":"上個月我們被詐騙的金額76億啦只查扣到6億所以我一直不懂的就是說我們要求在治安單位要求之下希望我們銀行銀行端能夠配合圈存這些"},{"start":512.115,"end":530.871,"text":"受騙的金額結果圈存啦原先只圈存24小時銀行只配合24小時好不容易打詐釋法過以後現在社會壓力之下延長到48小時但是銀行公會也有講話啦24小時要48小時也罷"},{"start":537.952,"end":563.352,"text":"往往圈存的這些戶頭當警方過於忙碌當沒有再進一步方式的時候過了這個時間這個圈存戶又讓他恢復正常錢又流到詐騙機端他又拿走了所以我不懂銀行公會適合居心你今天回去問他一下適合居心啦"},{"start":564.42,"end":569.385,"text":"現在詐騙集團在A 被壞人在IAI在我們台灣變成是這樣詐騙人A 社會在I好英安公會竟然還大剌剌這麼講說這個權權時間過長"},{"start":589.997,"end":615.849,"text":"你知道嗎 民間第三方支付他們圈存時間都20天以上 第三方支付為什麼人家民間可以做到 應安公衛這莫名其妙的單位嘛所以你今天回去問他們好不好你問他們適合居心 我要求應該配合治安單位"},{"start":617.352,"end":623.881,"text":"把生存時間增長可不可以我們趕快來跟銀行公會來研究"},{"start":624.755,"end":648.513,"text":"然後那個詐騙集團現在也運用這些自然人憑證在開戶啦那很不錯的我們有七家這島市這七家我看大部分是公營含庫啦這個剛才講的兆豐他換成他是模範營能的義營也不錯啦義營、華營、和庫、台企、永豐還有張營"},{"start":650.234,"end":671.477,"text":"他們都改成說要視訊驗證或者臨櫃辦理這才能開戶我認為詐騙到現在這種地步後你想想一個月76億了這個完全不用考慮就是取消應該取消自然人憑證的開戶要不然改成臨櫃"},{"start":675.1,"end":691.753,"text":"這個臨櫃或者視訊驗證的方式好不好那個主席抱歉是不是再給我15秒給我30秒我要提到金管會我們有針對各營能應用AI做一個調查這裡面有兩個答案我覺得最莫名其妙啦"},{"start":692.691,"end":719.767,"text":"他們認為說 竟然有百分之三十的銀行業者我不曉得哪幾家啦他們竟然回答說 要運用AI的他說 業務上佔無需要天啊 業務上佔無需要 我剛剛講的嘛你運用AI 你像我剛剛提的這三大民營銀行他們用的這個"},{"start":721.414,"end":746.183,"text":"保護這個存款戶的方式像包括鷹眼國泰盾什麼AI神盾聯防這些人家就是善於應用AI嘛可以避免像台銀像義營宜蘭芬郎像台銀的奈芬郎這種內神通外鬼好不好我希望他們這個觀念要改你回去好好的跟他們談談"},{"start":747.583,"end":760.958,"text":"跟銀行公會談 跟各大公營行戶談 以及民間銀行對於已經有做 做得好的 我們鼓勵他對於不好的 你好好鞭策鞭策他們 好不好"},{"start":762.52,"end":762.54,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":792.585,"end":795.729,"text":"謝謝主席我知道這個外委會的時間比較短"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1256,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時32分）謝謝主席！我請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，我今天跟你談另外一個問題，這九大公股行庫的董事長、總經理都是你這邊指派的，我相信你也一定經過相當的瞭解、調查、熟識才會指派他們，但是前幾天，一銀宜蘭分行被當地刑警大隊進去搜查，帶走他們的副理還有4個行員，因為他們涉及跟詐騙集團勾結，光是已經查到的案子就有三十幾個受害人，有3個詐騙集團在那邊開了戶頭，我覺得很奇怪，因為在先前，這3個公司名下的戶頭都已經是警示戶，為什麼這麼好的第一銀行竟然還給警示戶繼續開戶？這不是很奇怪嗎？照說警示戶不但不能給他開戶，而且要通報警方，所以我想瞭解的是就這件事情，你有沒有要求第一銀行針對這些開戶的流程去做一些調查，是不是有疏失？我還想瞭解第一銀行的情況，我認為第一銀行的監督、管理、考核都出了問題。上上個月就是今年3月，更大的臺灣銀行欸！臺灣銀行竟然有兩個分行都是副理級還有行員涉入，就是臺北松山分行、仁愛分行，這件事我想你應該知道，涉及金額高達2,200萬元，而被逮獲的中間人竟然暗示說到這些行去開戶可以有回扣，臺銀這邊涉及的金額更可怕，他匯出國外的金額竟然高達一億多元，裡面有1,000萬元竟然是匯到剛才我講的上禮拜出事的這個第一銀行的同一個詐騙戶頭。天啊！匯到同一個公司帳號詐騙戶頭這個警示戶，所以我覺得這實在是很荒唐啦！很荒唐！部長先說一下你瞭不瞭解這件事？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關臺銀這個事情我瞭解，剛剛說到的2,200萬元部分，金管會已經重罰，相關的內部人員，包含這兩個行員，這兩個行員其實是夫妻關係。"],["王委員世堅：我在跟金管會談之前之所以要先找你談，是因為這九大公營行庫董事長、總經理都是你派的，一銀的董事長、總經理有來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["王委員世堅：請起立一下，好不好？你們是模範銀行耶！天啊！在我心目中是把你們看得非常高的，你是模範銀行，我們金管會還特別把ESG這麼重大的業務交由你們來推動耶！臺灣銀行的董事長、總經理有來嗎？你們是龍頭銀行耶！一個龍頭銀行、一個模範銀行，你們竟然出了這樣子的事情！好啦！這個照說是要追究、要檢討警示戶的開戶流程，要追查他們有沒有疏忽或者不法，這個責任應該由總行來設專責監理單位，結果到現在為止，我們整個九大公營行庫中，只有兆豐銀行是由總行設一個專責監理單位，所以就這個部分，部長是不是要要求九大公營行庫在總行設置監理單位，監理各分行針對這些警示戶的開戶流程做檢討，查一查他們是不是有疏忽甚至不法。可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得應該是這樣做。"],["王委員世堅：臺銀董事長和總經理知道我為什麼要讓你們站起來嗎？你們先前給我的答復，你們回覆各單位還跟治安單位說，你們每半年就會執行員工違常狀況的清查，你們說的是藉由觀察啦！喔！你們超厲害的耶！你們是算命的嗎？你只要觀察、察言觀色就可以看到，是這樣嗎？都不用看他們開戶的流程，你只觀察這些行員的外觀神色就可以知道，是這樣嗎？都不用看看他們經手的資料、他們該監管的開戶流程嗎？好啦！你們4位都是金融界的長輩份，我不為難你們，請坐。所以部長，我要跟你提的就是現在是我們九大公營行庫應該來做模範的時候，這一次打詐四法通過以後，反而在做模範的都是民營銀行，就是我最常說的薯條三兄弟中大哥的背後老闆──中國信託銀行，當時它的警示戶最多，我就說中國信託跟詐騙集團是「We are family」，結果這樣子說過之後，人家不到半年只三、四個月，光是成立一個AI神盾聯防，現在攔阻了28億元；富邦金控也不遑多讓，弄了一個鷹眼；國泰世華也推出了國泰盾，他們上半年阻詐的金額達12億元。所以設這些最主要的就是可以防止內神通外鬼，因此部長是不是應該回去好好的要求公股銀行仿效民間銀行，引進AI，還有在總行設專責的監理單位？可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，對於好的作法我們一定要引進來，然後看能不能再更為精進。我想委員這個提示，我們可以在會後就來做要求。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝，部長請回。我請教彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，上個月我們被詐騙的金額有76億元，只查扣到6億元，我一直不懂的是，在治安單位要求之下，我們希望銀行端能夠配合圈存這些受騙的金額，原先銀行只配合圈存24小時，好不容易打詐四法通過以後，現在在社會壓力之下延長到48小時，但是銀行公會又講話啦！主委，24小時也好48小時也罷，當警方過於忙碌、當沒有再進一步的時候，過了這個時間，往往又讓這些圈存的戶頭恢復正常，錢又流到詐騙集團被他拿走了。所以我不懂，銀行公會是何居心？你今天回去問他一下，是何居心啦！現在詐騙集團在「A」，被害人在「I（哀）」，AI在我們臺灣變成是這樣──詐騙人在A、社會在哀嚎！銀行公會竟然還大剌剌的說這個圈存時間過長，你知道嗎？民間第三方支付的圈存時間都在20天以上，為什麼人家民間可以做到？銀行公會真是莫名其妙的單位嘛！所以你今天回去問問他們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：你問他們是何居心，我要求應該配合治安單位，把圈存時間增長，可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們趕快來跟銀行公會研究。"],["王委員世堅：現在詐騙集團也應用這些自然人憑證在開戶，那很不錯的，我們有7家，我看大部分是公營行庫，包括剛才講的兆豐──現在換成它是模範銀行了，一銀也不錯啦！一銀、華銀、合庫、台企、永豐還有彰銀，都改成要視訊驗證或者臨櫃辦理才能開戶，我認為詐騙到現在這種地步，一個月就被騙了76億元，這個完全不用考慮，就是取消！應該取消自然人憑證的開戶，改成臨櫃或者視訊驗證的方式，好不好？抱歉！請主席再給我30秒。我要提到的是金管會有針對各銀行應用AI做一個調查，這裡面有兩個答復我覺得最莫名其妙，竟然有30%的銀行業者，我不曉得是哪幾家，對應用AI這點回答說「業務上暫無需要」，天啊！居然說「業務上暫無需要」，我剛剛講了，這三大民營銀行他們用的保護存款戶的方式，包括鷹眼、國泰盾、AI神盾聯防這些，就是善於應用AI嘛！可以避免像一銀宜蘭分行、臺銀仁愛分行這種內神通外鬼的狀況嘛！我希望他們這個觀念要改，你回去好好的跟他們談談，跟銀行公會談，跟各大公營行庫以及民間銀行談，對於已經有做且做得好的，我們鼓勵他，對於不好的，你好好鞭策鞭策他們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實銀行公會在這方面也非常努力，但是我們還是會持續跟他們要求改善。剛剛提到的AI的部分，可能是調查工具的詢問方式不一樣，我想我們會要求他們儘量用科技阻詐的方式來做這件事情，予以強化。"],["王委員世堅：是啊！可以避開人為疏忽或者勾結不法這些事，最好的、最棒的就是AI嘛！善用AI，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","現在請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 39 案；\n三、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結專案報告\n案9案","agenda_id":"1145101_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}