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:"那因為今天有邀請我們副人事長來那當然我先待會這個人關於這個機關內的勞工的保障的問題我想就請副人事長來做報告那麼我緊就我們非機關的一般勞工的這樣的"},{"start":2278.945,"end":2299.228,"text":"提升薪資水準的措施跟委員會報告第一個我們當然最近9月4號我們就提升了最低工資保障邊際的勞工薪資第二個我們希望能夠強化工會的協商實力第三個我們希望能夠促進薪資的透明化那我們具體的作為就是最近在這個跟經管會的"},{"start":2300.249,"end":2302.812,"text":"並備質詢：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會及行政院內勞工之權益"},{"start":2321.782,"end":2335.9,"text":"等等這樣子的補助以及這樣子的行政措施最後我們在這方面也希望能夠透過檢查跟輔導並行來落實勞工權益的保障"},{"start":2339.647,"end":2351.311,"text":"積極推動經濟發展,也運用包括調升最低工資、薪資透明化、透過法規鼓勵企業與勞工分享經濟成長果實等措施,來促進薪資提升。從2016年以來,經常性薪資與總薪資年增率,與最低工資成長率成正比"},{"start":2361.013,"end":2374.129,"text":"那麼在全球化經濟情勢跟產業環境的變動下如何營造有力加薪的企業環境企業發展跟勞動環境也更需要我們跨部會的協作跟同理合作我們會持續落實並滾動檢討相關的作為以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2383.999,"end":2395.761,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘練習委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2411.247,"end":2412.348,"text":"10點30分,截止收案"},{"start":2429.113,"end":2450.414,"text":"你好部長好部長我想你剛剛已經講了現在在台移工已經80萬名那我們看到在台移工現在有一個很大的問題是在台灣懷孕生子這一些移工他的保障到底有沒有做到我們可以看到彰化最近爆發的這一個案例就是他"},{"start":2451.114,"end":2459.087,"text":"在僱主家殘肢你知道這個案例最後他現在情況怎麼樣嗎?政府有介入嗎?有提供什麼樣的協助跟幫忙?這個個案有追蹤嗎?有掌握嗎?沒有?兩位都不知道"},{"start":2467.247,"end":2469.029,"text":"在你們的統計裡面在台移工申請生育給付的人數每一年都提高去年來到了5687"},{"start":2493.491,"end":2506.079,"text":"但是這個部長你知道嗎在我們現在廣大的24萬多名的家世移工如果他們在台灣生子他可以領生育給付嗎?可以嗎?因為他沒有頭腦寶所以完全是被排除在外的"},{"start":2515.242,"end":2538.623,"text":"如果今天彰化被爆出來這個案例他是家事移工的身份他生了小孩政府是沒有可以提供任何生育給付跟幫忙的你認為我們這樣的制度是不是有缺漏而監察院的報告其實已經告訴你們這個部分應該要去檢討那我有看到一個報導你們曾經5月份對外講說要把"},{"start":2541.206,"end":2550.367,"text":"訂了指引之後要把生育給付家事勞工的生育給付納進來結果攀開你們現在的指引"},{"start":2551.277,"end":2572.55,"text":"一個字都沒有提消失了、被消失胎死腹中了這件事情你們有要研議嗎?有要做嗎?你們5月份有對外講喔你們這個監察院的報告也有指出來喔這個生育給付目前是24萬名的家世勞工是完全通通被排除在外的"},{"start":2573.311,"end":2593.538,"text":"結果你們現在又指引出來了又置之未提是不是又已經開始不忠說說而已委員我澄清是這樣我們的指引其實還在朝你中還沒有定案所以有沒有要加入我今天就正式問你我在試圖加入可是委員我要跟你要不要加入我覺得部長你要展現決心啊不是試圖加入啊這我要澄清"},{"start":2594.898,"end":2616.916,"text":"我們有這個想法要加入我們也在加入可是社會上有不同意見你要了解當然包括來自雇主端包括來自其他的那就要展現你的魄力跟決心啊到底勞動部的態度立場為何五月份你們是對外講說要欸講得很大聲欸那就應該要立定方向去執行啊即使有任何的困難應該要排除啊"},{"start":2623.24,"end":2646.883,"text":"我覺得我們現在政府每一年我們可以去撥2000億的預算給台電談到這一些外籍移工的問題的時候涉及到錢的時候政府就不願意多負一點責任我們永遠對弱勢就是這麼的苛刻這一些外籍移工坦白講他來到台灣他如果知道他懷孕還要來這邊做這一份工作就代表他的經濟有多困難"},{"start":2647.643,"end":2675.298,"text":"他賺幾個月也好那我們現在說你剛剛報告的很好說我們現在對外籍移工多麼的友善去機場迎接他這種我覺得倒是不必了但是實質上的這種已經遇到問題需要幫忙的我們卻伸不出手來我們其實是沒有提供任何協助跟幫忙的那你的指引訂了一堆你認為有用嗎你今天看看你的指引喔裡面你其實也提到的都是僱主"},{"start":2676.258,"end":2702.377,"text":"跟這個仲介的責任那我想問一點就是說我們今天有這麼多的移工在臺灣勞動部的責任是什麼你們今天的報告裡面提到說你們現在只有補助桃園、彰化、高雄設置婦幼諮詢中心那我就要問其他縣市的這一些移工如果出現懷孕生產的問題他們的服務去找誰要去找誰"},{"start":2706.347,"end":2709.378,"text":"這三個中心我們是跨縣市服務的跨到哪裡?"},{"start":2710.526,"end":2736.9,"text":"比如像桃園都可以服務嗎?在宜蘭的也可以跑到桃園嗎?那他要怎麼服務?桃園會跑到宜蘭陪他去就醫喔?我跟您報告關於移工懷孕的問題我們是跟衛福部一起協作的現在他們的安置是衛福部在處理所以你們負責什麼?因為你們上面的報告提到說你們會陪同這個孕婦就是去這個就醫啊"},{"start":2737.827,"end":2755.28,"text":"委員因為我們現在的安置的費用是我們出所以你還是主管機關嘛對我們是主管機關沒錯可是移工懷孕了那我問你我問你如果今天它是在發生在宜蘭的一個移工他懷孕生產了"},{"start":2756.041,"end":2768.526,"text":"他有問題他需要服務請問你這三個桃園、彰化、高雄的婦幼諮詢中心可以提供什麼服務桃園那邊我們可以接案服務我們可以輔導他所以桃園他有服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東"},{"start":2774.429,"end":2784.977,"text":"有,我們現在就是北東南這樣子,因為你不可能每個縣市現在都...多少?多少?有多少?服務量有多少?我不太相信桃園可以服務到宜蘭、花蓮、台東"},{"start":2789.221,"end":2805.437,"text":"是不是?其實數量還好啦沒有多到大家想像的這個部長我希望你不要這個避重就輕喔而且把一些該處理的問題就是簡單化覺得這個都還好發生在每一個懷孕移工生產對他來講他都需要他希望"},{"start":2805.937,"end":2827.452,"text":"在臺灣我們政府可以提供適度的幫忙如果你要推給衛福部你說你們是跟衛福部合作那我要知道你現在跟衛福部的機制是什麼衛福部有人會陪同移工去就醫嗎他懷孕他的安置都可以做到嗎他的安置是他寶寶是衛福部的這一個NGO那產婦的部分呢移工的部分來那個產婦的部分當然我們醫療都會我們健保都會處理啊那你的安置資源在哪裡"},{"start":2833.797,"end":2847.17,"text":"我們安置就是衛福部他會提供NGO來安置這些黑戶寶寶嗎?那你的量是夠的嗎?如果衛福部的系統很好你為什麼要在桃園、川化、高雄還要再設婦幼諮詢中心?兩件事我們在北中南這三個是我們為了當然移工懷孕的過程裡面我們當然也要輔導他"},{"start":2856.578,"end":2879.428,"text":"進入到衛福部的安置系統裡面啊是啊那你前段這個過程會做得很好嗎你才三個地點欸你現在你1到8月你安置的人數也才184人服務其實是要有究竟性、競變性的你如果連這一點你們都不肯去檢討覺得自我感覺良好我設三個北中南這樣已經很好了"},{"start":2880.268,"end":2888.314,"text":"你真的應該要到現場去看看這樣的服務是不是很好了你認為沒有檢討的空間嗎?量能是足夠的嗎?我們當然永遠都可以檢討"},{"start":2889.434,"end":2892.956,"text":"永遠都可以檢討可是呢委員我要跟您報告我們面臨來自社會各方面的意見這個不是只有移工團體的意見而已當然執政沒有那麼簡單那作為部長就是要面對問題去解決問題我也要聽副主端的意見聽我們社會其他方面的意見但是呢要守住你的立場啊"},{"start":2915.632,"end":2928.188,"text":"你是勞動部啊你應該要先站在移工的立場不是嗎你有一個主要的立場之後你去說服其他人來接受你的意見嘛要不然你對外講得那麼大聲說你這個生育津貼24萬的家事移工你們要把他納進來這個就是空談啊"},{"start":2934.156,"end":2962.776,"text":"因為你遇到問題你就退縮啊你沒有一個主要的立場啊你們在這樣子的一個情況底下你永遠踏不出第一步啊這個部長我真的要勸你你現在其實是勞動部部長這個立場你應該還是要守穩的守穩你的立場你才會有一個明確的政策方向要不然各方都有意見你沒有一個主要意見的時候各方意見來的時候什麼都不了了之這個我希望你可以好好思考這樣的一個立場跟問題謝謝"},{"start":2963.857,"end":2969.409,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝王育民委員的發言接下來請陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2978.187,"end":2978.467,"text":"已經在進行了"},{"start":3004.029,"end":3032.386,"text":"就是說那我可不可以了解就是說我們目前也許要分幾次是不是就是你要討論的內容包括是什麼人數啦職業別啦產業類別啦還有就是說執聘的方式還是仲介的方式我可以了解一下嗎是委員我們在什麼包括業別啦人數其實都維持原來的我的這樣子的計畫沒有變化大概1000人大概以製造業為主那我們很期待的職聘呢"},{"start":3033.586,"end":3060.461,"text":"這個有沒有定一個比率?因為這是一個新的來源國,我們一直希望從上個會期就一直期待那你有定一個目標嗎?職聘的目標嗎?大概是5%為目標5%喔?現在1%?現在5%喔?為什麼我覺得說因為它是第一次進行的來源國但是部長也正是第一次,因為這次你主要是,據我了解是產業移工嘛那產業移工其實是企業界它是相對有比較多的資源啊"},{"start":3061.381,"end":3077.814,"text":"你說這個一般的僱主他可能有困難但是企業的部分他有相當資源他是可以來承接或是職聘的這樣的一工作我記得有一次溝通會議也是請職聘的還這樣長跟職聘的一個還報告說他們做得很好啊所以不怕沒搞啦,部長"},{"start":3079.162,"end":3107.692,"text":"委員真的這個齁因為是第一次來往齁我們跟印度這個來原國而且印度本身沒有職聘的這樣的系統所以我們要考量可行性啦所以先從5%開始以後可以進步好不好我們會來增加5%在醫學的統計學小於5%等於沒有我本來要跟你提出要五成一半一半啦因為你是產業移工嘛你知道我的重點是因為這是產業移工不是家庭的雇主"},{"start":3108.092,"end":3112.577,"text":"如果是有能力來做一個對口請部長還是要考慮把這個標準提高我們的遠洋漁業已經連續3年被美國勞工部列在強迫勞動清單您知道這件事嗎當然"},{"start":3125.251,"end":3144.062,"text":"那你認為這個勞動權益勞動部有沒有責任委員這方面我們跟漁業署就是農業部、漁業署我們是共同在處理這件事我要跟您報告啊遠洋漁業的管理其實是漁業署他甚至他的因為他不屬於勞基法的範圍他是屬於漁業署的一個遠洋漁工管理辦法在處在管理的我可以同意漁業署他主責啦對對對但是勞工權益還是會知道"},{"start":3153.208,"end":3157.569,"text":"我們跟他們一起協作這個漁業人權行動方案已經從2020年開始到現在了事實上改進非常的多部長你看右邊這個圖啊這個也是我們要檢討我們應該要加強向美方澄清金資被扣欸工時過長欸船上生活條件惡劣不衛生欸生活照顧還有肢體虐待欸"},{"start":3179.555,"end":3188.858,"text":"那靠港 因為大部分沒有辦法靠港休息等等 欸這個都最嚴重的事也不過這樣而已啊我覺得那個漁業人權行動方案改善到現在 坦白講這些情況已經幾乎都沒有了可是它還列在這裡啊 這連續三年還沒有拿掉啊"},{"start":3196.441,"end":3206.365,"text":"這是我們必須應該要主動去跟美方來澄清油稅的問題你覺得我們的這個遠洋漁工沒有這樣的狀況你應該是請美國把這個名單拿掉我們正要做這個努力我們跟農業部要一起做這個努力很不名譽的事情改善外籍這個漁工血汗的困境漁業署他是有提一個漁業與人權行動計劃他當然他就提到說勞動部也有相關的權責"},{"start":3223.652,"end":3237.996,"text":"那他也提出了一些改善策略那但是當中剛剛你有報導一個1955專線我就這個部分我有幾個問題我想就逐一跟您討論第一個移工在海上工作他有辦法打這支電話嗎他有訊號嗎"},{"start":3241.998,"end":3259.933,"text":"他一年到頭都是在船上欸他能打這支電話嗎1955委員這個遠洋移工當然是比較困難啦不過我們現在有提供裝設Wi-Fi嘛這也是所謂這個漁業人權行動法案裡面一個重點那個普及率OK嗎像現在普及率比較沒有那麼全面"},{"start":3260.854,"end":3277.205,"text":"甚至比較還算低啦可是這個就牽涉到是衛星那個我們農業部都有在這個計畫當中就是看怎麼樣是用衛星通訊的方式來克服因為那另外其次就是說1955對於近海的移工是OK的"},{"start":3277.785,"end":3298.911,"text":"他們都可以打這個電話不過移民署既然把這個放上去了,就可以用嘛這是第一個第二個那個移工跟僱主我們只要想一下,他們是住在同一條船上那我如果被你虐待我敢打電話嗎?我有機會打電話嗎?我可以躲起來打電話投訴嗎?你想像那個情境如果這些都是來自這個"},{"start":3300.211,"end":3319.599,"text":"是當然委員這個就是我們要去克服的問題嘛就是說我們希望也宣傳這個漁業組在這方面能夠有這怎麼克服呢?他們就住在同一條船上啊Wi-Fi的設置其實當然也是希望能夠有他們可以就近投訴啦"},{"start":3321.12,"end":3346.608,"text":"還有包括文字客服我覺得可能有機會要去了解一下這些移工他們到底遇到了什麼困難委員他們的薪資已經提升到550塊美金了這已經接近國際的水準了這是其中一項而已其實最重要是薪水啦薪水要提高啦薪水就可以忍耐被虐待喔被霸凌喔委員這個薪水都提到那麼高了坦白說你要"},{"start":3347.688,"end":3369.326,"text":"對 是坦白說這個虐待有的時候你其實去算一算也許加班費還是是不合因為你 因為遠洋去外面作業很他必須是一個好 那我往下問請問1955一年收到多少多少支這個申訴電話遠洋移工的電話有記錄嗎嗯 這我要我們再看一下 有沒有記錄多少我們的有記錄啦有沒有打成功過"},{"start":3378.106,"end":3388.211,"text":"有嗎?真的有打成功過?幾支吧?但是打了又怎麼處理?我可以知道嗎?接到電話以後你們要怎麼處理?可見應該是沒有人打成功過啦"},{"start":3396.685,"end":3409.13,"text":"記錄有派案然後也會專人去服務他很重要有母語能力的專人服務他下一個我們談一下USG因為不久前勞動部的頒獎典禮有一個走秀"},{"start":3412.871,"end":3440.016,"text":"那當然基本上代表勞動部也是非常重視這個ESG推廣跟落實那部長您看一下那ESG的那個分類表它有幾類請問勞動部您是注重在哪個部分是環境圈、環境面、社會面還是公司治理面我們當然是S當然是叫S的社會面那我想請問一個原則請問部長這個僱主守法遵守勞動法令這是不是最基本的ESG的這個"},{"start":3441.737,"end":3452.563,"text":"當然當然這是最基本嘛那我們看看事實上你們的獎成對象是不是符合這個基本要求請部長稍微看一下這個資料這是審計部的報告勞動部2023年所補助的事業單位有200家前一年曾經違反勞動法令3次以上總共領了將近5000萬還有5家違法10次以上153家2023年持續違法"},{"start":3470.074,"end":3483.227,"text":"第2個更嚴重,122家連續3年都違法但是還是繼續領你們的就業基金,你們小金庫嘛,小金庫的補助其中有16家違法20次,最高高達74次,而且有97家是在2023年持續違法"},{"start":3491.994,"end":3520.172,"text":"啊你把小金庫給這些有違法那個勞動法令的企業界啊那個ESG有道得走嗎是委員這個我們必須檢討我們正在檢討中我認為這裡面搞不好有人情啊熟悉啊就是造發這樣是不對的啊你有這個基金你要獎勵的對象跟不該獎勵的對象要分得很清楚而且還有一個點齁就第三件事情多數計畫都去規範那失業單位違反勞動法令清潔重大者"},{"start":3520.612,"end":3545.875,"text":"不予補助你們是有這條規定可是你們並沒有說什麼叫做違反這個勞動法令情節重大你沒有做定義啊所以你等於違反累犯照零補助啊這個違反公平公正原則那這個部分怎麼辦這個法令怎麼辦我們會就這個做一些比較清楚的規範然後我們會做檢討然後我們把這個相關的資料送給委員好嗎"},{"start":3547.296,"end":3568.303,"text":"這個要很具體啦,就是說你違反勞動法令那你還要補助,你要隔多久,看他的表現一個月內這是基本的東西嘛,這是我們任何領域基本的概念勞動部的小金庫養慣老闆,這個不行啊這不是小金庫啦不管這樣你還是把錢撥出去的嘛,而且這個裡面很清楚是是是好,謝謝委員,謝謝"},{"start":3571.974,"end":3591.315,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭芝委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言好 謝謝主席麻煩我們的行政院人事行政總處的副人事長副人事長"},{"start":3601.151,"end":3615.048,"text":"行政院大概在111年大概就是幫軍工調薪到4%那今年要再調4%那今年的調薪除了本縫以外還有專業家級也是相當幅度有去調整"},{"start":3615.908,"end":3637.44,"text":"那預計114年還要再調3%而這次25年來首次連續兩年調整我覺得在人力荒的狀態裡邊這的確事實上是很需要的因為很多工作人員也是面臨到請不到人、留不住人的問題所以我覺得本席非常肯定的是行政院的這樣的一個積極作為"},{"start":3641.107,"end":3655.609,"text":"可是今年的調薪大家都很開心誰不開心呢只有公職的醫事人員不開心為什麼調薪的結果以公務員的檢期值等來看的話公立的醫療機構跟公立學校的專業佳績"},{"start":3657.335,"end":3676.21,"text":"比其他我們的專業人員還要低那所以想問一下覺得臺灣社會應該沒有人會去否定醫事人員的一個專業而且在整體的公務人員專業家籍裡邊可是醫事人員卻是最低的這有一些歧視的問題可是想問一下為什麼會這樣這個部分我瞭解衛福部在檢討中他們9月底好像有開過會我們會追蹤這個問題"},{"start":3689.076,"end":3708.049,"text":"公職的醫事人員不是只有專業家級整個原本定就已經比其他職類低那甚至在這次在調薪的時候也會看到專業家級整個的幅度上其他職類的條幅事實上是在6.2%到12.8%可是公職醫事人員為什麼只有4%所以"},{"start":3714.932,"end":3738.02,"text":"想問是醫事人員專業家級比人家低今年大家都在調整專業家級的時候調整的幅度還是比別人低請問是什麼原因那是對醫事人員我們的衛福部沒有意見嗎所以當時人總在討論醫事人員這種薪資的時候到底衛福部針對這樣專業家級如此低衛福部沒有表示意見嗎"},{"start":3740.475,"end":3765.661,"text":"因為剛好調薪的時候那個階段我們正好要檢討那個專業價值表表一並表二所以這個有些你會覺得說有些為什麼比較高那是因為剛好他的專業價值表表一並表二的關係那我先問你衛福部有表當時有表示意見嗎是你們人種不同意還是怎樣為什麼從前面就已經低然後真的在調薪的時候跌上來還是最低的"},{"start":3767.346,"end":3789.992,"text":"因為如果是通案調整待遇大概就是我們有一個待遇審議委員會那大概這個部分我們力量大概沒有要衛福部我們大概要財主單位還有專家學者來討論那這個部分我覺得COVID-19的時候醫療人員、醫事人員對我們來講都非常的重要可是卻對他們來講最不友善"},{"start":3792.413,"end":3815.287,"text":"而且公立學校的護理師的專業家級又比其他單位的醫事人員少這是對公立學校的護理師而言他事實上是40班以下聘一個人我們現在以一個學校2500的話他大概1000人只有一個護士他要去這樣的照顧別那學生上學裡邊如果碰到任何狀況"},{"start":3816.167,"end":3817.948,"text":"請勞動部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":3845.769,"end":3869.922,"text":"進一步的反應嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告就是說那個衛福部在9月底邀請包括教育部也邀請一起在研究這個在討論9月30號不是開會了嗎?有開會有衛福部那開會的結果是什麼?教育部也在研議看要怎麼調整那衛福部呢?也是啊"},{"start":3871.021,"end":3880.994,"text":"也是要等那在等什麼時候呢所以同樣是護理師在衛生所跟在學校要做的事情一樣每個月我們的學校護理師專業家級的"},{"start":3883.243,"end":3911.752,"text":"竟然會比衛生所護理師少一千多元他們做事情有不一樣嗎他們事實上是一比一千個孩子那怎麼會是這樣的比例上還會是相差這樣的他的專業家境所以本席強烈建議在制定相關規則的時候不是坐在辦公室裡邊去想像那要做這個工作要到工作現場去看一下整個的工作忙碌狀況而且這種差別待遇行之有年"},{"start":3912.392,"end":3940.735,"text":"一直以來都是這樣對我們學校護理師他又是肩負我們學校孩子的健康很重要的一個靈魂人物那所以學校護理師我不知道教育部如果衛福部、教育部都沒有表示意見還是真的是人總不採納今年1月4號人總公佈的全國軍公教人員的待遇知己要點同時也大幅度調整各類職種的專業佳績"},{"start":3942.586,"end":3969.846,"text":"1月10日,全國學校護理師就提出了抗議來做聲明可是似乎好像是沒有人去理會因為因應醫院的護理師留任的難題衛福部還有一些配套措施夜班加急、繁重津貼直接撥付給護理師同時又降低護病費的一個獎勵金給醫院用盡一切努力就是要留任可是人力就是資源所以我不知道"},{"start":3970.586,"end":3997.237,"text":"我懷疑人總是不是缺乏這樣的認知現在是到處搶人的時代那怎麼會讓我們的護理師雙重受到尤其是學校護理師受到雙重的歧視你說這口氣你覺得今天學校護理師怎麼會吞得下去他比公務人員低他比我們的衛生所的人員又低那他本來醫事人員整個整個就是低的學校護理師又更低"},{"start":3999.089,"end":4014.935,"text":"對,所以我們因為有這樣像委員剛剛提的有疑情的反應所以我們就督促就要求衛福部趕快來處理好,就希望人總可能要去考慮因為公職醫事人員扣除掉我們的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟亞醫師在公立醫療"},{"start":4016.155,"end":4038.462,"text":"提供的特定的那個薪資加給的制度那其他醫事人員都沒有也就是說我剛剛講的法醫、西醫、中醫師跟亞醫師都有另外的薪資的加給制度反而其他醫事人員沒有所以只能靠這個專業加給來拿到他應有的一個薪資比較合理的待遇那這些人數已經達到28.4萬那所以這個薪資呢"},{"start":4044.38,"end":4066.646,"text":"因為他的工作比別人多可是薪資領的又比私立醫院低所以希望能夠透過一些薪資的加給制度來增加留人的那當然我們也期待不要漏掉我們的護理師所以我一上任之後就接到全國公職護理師對本案的陳情那接獲後我們也跟"},{"start":4067.566,"end":4079.115,"text":"邀請全國一市聯合會跟相關政府部門來做討論包括教育部跟衛福部他們都是同意那現在就是等人總點個頭所以我剛才問你9月30號開會"},{"start":4083.759,"end":4100.072,"text":"衛福部跟教育部跟我表達意見都是他們同意、他們支持那現在就是人總這邊到底什麼時候會去開帳的會是不是可以在這邊也可以去承諾說可不可以把公職醫事人員整體的專業家級提升到能夠追上警察嗎?"},{"start":4101.173,"end":4124.823,"text":"委員如果衛務部還有教育部的方案上來報導行政院是由人總處理的話我們也趕快來問一下什麼時間因為我從上個會期就已經針對這個部分表達強烈的因為他們的確一越長年以來都是對他們來講是一種很大的啟示是不是我們下去以後我們趕快去督促促請那個衛務部跟教育部趕快所以可不可以給我們一個時間"},{"start":4126.957,"end":4149.223,"text":"因為我們等了蠻久了我不曉得他們要作業時程要多久啦我們請他趕快回應委員您的要求好 那你就要去要求衛福部跟教育部因為錢是你們管是不是一個月能夠召開下一次的會議9月30號開可不可以11月的時候再度召開會議"},{"start":4151.195,"end":4167.59,"text":"現在如果說衛福部有方案呢他其實就直接報行政院就不一定要開會等報院以後我們再會相關機關意見回來我們就可以簽辦所以最後我還是呼籲不要把公務人員的服從的素養當成事實上是可以忽視公務人員"},{"start":4168.484,"end":4183.093,"text":"的一個新生的理由還是要去看重學校護理師或各類醫事人員真的專業家級要給他拉起然後對於醫事人員跟其他的人員事實上是同等的重要謝謝"},{"start":4186.855,"end":4202.238,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的質詢那等一下請我們那個夫人市長就是會後跟相關單位聯繫一下月琴委員要的資料就跟他們通知一下好不好好好謝謝接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席謝謝各位委員官員我也想請何部長請何部長"},{"start":4217.37,"end":4242.231,"text":"部長好你好今年的10月10號叫做世界心理健康日那今年的主題是職場心理健康所以全世界的國家都發現說在疫情後啊當然疫情的時候就感到大家的情緒壓力是增加的可是疫情後都紛紛要返回職場那現在也有很多空缺都還補不上所以就顯示"},{"start":4243.212,"end":4260.028,"text":"這個是一個local的數據臺灣民眾常見的精神疾患的分佈大概憂鬱、焦慮是在30到45歲盛行率最高平均每四位就有一位青壯世代也從我們就診的記錄看到說精神醫療的使用提升從105到111年7.4%增加到9.5%成長率達到27%"},{"start":4266.474,"end":4284.153,"text":"那這群人其實跟我們勞動部所關心的族群非常重疊的就是525萬人的青壯世代所以響應今年這種職場心理健康許多團體我等一下會舉很多團體做出來的問卷有一個臺灣心理健康聯盟"},{"start":4285.334,"end":4312.226,"text":"發布的職場心理健康高達76%的比例認為工作壓力危害心理健康也呼籲希望可以倡導彈性工時給這樣職場的爸媽還有輕職假等等的議題這些都超過9成的民眾支持我相信部長跟我一樣應該都在這76%裡面嘛對是不是工作壓力有點危害到心理健康是吧好那我想問一下你知道貴部"},{"start":4313.486,"end":4325.56,"text":"衛福部他有推出一個15到45歲他今年也是因應這個主題所以他推出了一個擴大心理健康支持方案免費有三次的心理健康諮詢"},{"start":4327.099,"end":4345.759,"text":"你知道勞動部為我們廣大的勞工在職場的心理健康比如說職場霸凌等等做了什麼具體的措施嗎?我們在重建我們的預防重建中心每年可以提供6次喔6次的心理健康服務而且我們還在臉書幫他宣傳"},{"start":4348.162,"end":4366.083,"text":"你說幫衛福部宣傳?幫這個?那是我們自己的這個是從2015年開始做擴大跟67家心理諮商來合作而且我覺得做比衛福更多次因為你是每年六次他是一生三次那你知道這個方案執行的效果怎麼樣嗎?"},{"start":4368.123,"end":4374.786,"text":"需要宣傳再更多推廣因為確實從111年到112年才服務622人次太少了沒有比較沒有傷害我放兩個slide給你看這邊是另外一個關於臺灣職場心理健康問卷的調查結果他發現跟這個"},{"start":4392.013,"end":4414.428,"text":"2023亞洲心理健康指數報告發現有82%的員工有心理健康風險裡面高度的大概是35%中度大概是47%那在台灣跟亞洲的數據有點像就像我剛剛跟你講的75%的填打者都認為工作壓力對於身心健康有負面的影響所以我們簡單算一下全國如果1200萬勞工"},{"start":4417.692,"end":4425.892,"text":"75%是900萬可能會有心理諮詢的需求但是我們退一步講一半就好了所以可能是600萬好我們來看你的數據"},{"start":4427.638,"end":4444.289,"text":"進三年你是編的預算還用不到預算當然我覺得你編的預算也不夠蠻少的但是你編這樣子的錢還用不到一半多一點點那你從進三年看111年239人第二年383到目前923"},{"start":4450.533,"end":4451.394,"text":"請勞動部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會議"},{"start":4480.593,"end":4500.79,"text":"青少年現在自殺率開始升高是不到一年他們已經服務超過兩萬九千人然後還轉介高風險就醫喔受益者超過一萬人所以他們還從裡面抓到了高風險的趕快轉到醫療機構去所以因為辦得太好這也是少數衛福部評價96%滿意度的計畫"},{"start":4504.492,"end":4521.879,"text":"滿意度好到他們擴大到45歲我也很希望勞動部可以推出一個令人有感的計畫而且你們是從2015年開始喔衛福部的族群TA這麼廣衛福部裡面有老人、有病人、有三高的人大家知道要去用"},{"start":4523.24,"end":4547.001,"text":"勞動部的職場心理健康他的族群就是勞動部這麼簡單結果勞動部的人居然不知道也沒有人去用這件事情要不要跟他們學習一下當然當然我上任以後我有發現這個事所以我先請同仁幫忙在勞動部自己的官網、臉書也幫忙宣傳這個活動因為我想主要是"},{"start":4548.202,"end":4575.723,"text":"對所謂勞工職場的所謂心理復健這個定義我想我們也不要太拘泥啦因為我們一直都會拘泥說他一定要定義他是因為工作我才能來去讓他做心理職場對你知道嗎失業的人是不能用你們的服務的失業對他現在必須要有一個工作是啊所以我覺得這是一個應該要改進的問題好我可以說一下如果我們能夠像衛福部那麼的全面性因為他可能是健保"},{"start":4576.644,"end":4579.807,"text":"我希望你可以重視今年全世界很重視的職場心理健康我也具體分享一下我們來試用這個計畫的經驗我10月初請我們辦公室同仁打到職災預防重建中心的北部勞工健康辦公室10月初打"},{"start":4605.347,"end":4629.293,"text":"他首先告訴我們說你要先經過我們一個評估評估完才可以知道說你符不符合補助這6次諮商好10月初打喔他說但是10月的評估已經全部滿了所以他給我一個時間是11月中到11月底中間的一個這個平日的早上然後就說好那你就這個時間過來評估我們評估完以後告訴你可不可以獲得後面的6次諮商"},{"start":4631.002,"end":4654.444,"text":"那評估再評估好剛剛已經講到這個心理健康是一個比較緊急的狀態你從10月初就已經約到一個11月中的時間又是規定在一個上班時間從我們之前軍人、警察自殺你就已經知道說你就不想要被長官知道當然我可以合法的說我這個預約勞動部的服務要去做心理諮商但是"},{"start":4655.645,"end":4668.61,"text":"軍人就是有這個問題警察有這個問題所以他們才做不好那他們不敢跟老闆講的話你永遠這個評估都做不到的不但預約不到很難預約而且是一個很不友善的事件這個也請你們回去檢討好嗎好下一個"},{"start":4674.01,"end":4690.415,"text":"想要講一下因為今天有一題是講到非典非典型工作者那你們呢是不是有宣示4年要投入160億去協助這些非典的工作者轉正職因為他們已經大規模的突破80萬創新高了嘛"},{"start":4693.743,"end":4717.398,"text":"是好那這邊是我幫你找出來114年你們勞動部編列的預算這個勞動部跟你們所屬的機關的公務預算還有所屬的特種基金所禁用的非典型的承染人力在人數上還有在支出的經費上你猜增加多少"},{"start":4719.758,"end":4725.684,"text":"人數是增加35人喔經費呢是增加了9000多萬9000多萬好 比較好笑的是"},{"start":4730.774,"end":4751.371,"text":"其中這個就業安定基金啊就業安定基金是最大幅度禁用非典型勞工承攬34人而且他是就業安定基金你套在安定這兩個字不是很荒謬嗎你就業安定然後你去找非典型勞工所以他光是在就業安定基金就增加了8000多萬"},{"start":4753.422,"end":4767.104,"text":"那你一方面花了這麼多錢說要降低非典型勞工協助他們轉正職一方面多編了這些錢九千多萬去增加你們勞動部自己的非典型承攬的人力你覺得這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":4770.646,"end":4798.125,"text":"我們確實真的這方面是因為我們組織內部人總在這邊我們確實就是在我們的組織內部因為我們正式人員缺乏所以就都大量禁用承攬因為我們的這個在預算緣合上面有控管我們正式緣合其實被合組的很少因為你現在也要督導每一個部門減少他們的非典勞工如果你自己都做不到"},{"start":4799.164,"end":4822.326,"text":"我承認我們是非典大戶因為委員就是我們整個政府機關都有這樣的困境就是我們在正式原額的都有被控管因為政府精簡的需要所以你去督導別人的時候別人跟你講現在一模一樣的理由你應該要怎麼辦呢是我們應該要來跟我們要跟上級長官反映啦我們要跟行政院反映這個問題那你編這麼多錢"},{"start":4825.449,"end":4847.666,"text":"這兩邊是互相抵觸的,我希望你要不要提出一個月內提出一個檢討。我們應該是這樣,我們有在,剛剛之前我也都推詢,就是包括承攬人力的薪水提升啦,這個我們是可以馬上做的,就是我們讓承攬的人力也能讓他符合所有的勞動條件,因為承攬有時候也未必是那麼"},{"start":4848.507,"end":4849.007,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就"},{"start":4864.112,"end":4888.477,"text":"改善承攬的勞動條件我也會很想要知道說你未來要怎麼協助這個越來越多你們自己勞動部裡面的這些非典勞工轉正職你們有什麼具體的做法或者目標策略非典勞工轉正職就牽涉到行政院的整個政府的這個預算源的問題這個是整個我們要必須跟行政院反應澄清"},{"start":4888.797,"end":4889.397,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":4920.285,"end":4941.099,"text":"委員好部長好部長根據《就業服務法》第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工而雇主是身心障礙者時也需要繳納就業安定費一般家庭是需要繳交大概每月2000元中低跟低收入戶則是免繳"},{"start":4942.04,"end":4968.937,"text":"那所以這個部分呢也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅但是我想依照CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的觀點國家有責任去彌補障礙者和健常人之間的落差所以當國家無法彌補這個落差的時候那這些障礙者自力救濟去拼顧移工的時候卻反而被國家收這個障礙稅部長你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":4971.16,"end":4979.168,"text":"因為牽涉到身心障礙者本身如果他是中低收的話他當然也是免繳的我的意思是說只要是身心障礙者理由的應該都免繳可是這個"},{"start":4986.657,"end":5008.516,"text":"因為強勢到當然我們我想要幫他們簡單的講就是因為繳費是依據家庭的這個收入整體去看那障礙者本身他就是比較弱勢那即便在家庭中也是你說的只是你說的只是經濟上但是我們說的是用這個CRPD公約的精神以及障礙平權的角度好不好那所以"},{"start":5009.016,"end":5023.91,"text":"即便在佔領中也是所以就業服務法的55條規定僱主聘僱外國人從事第46條第1項第8款至第10款的規定之工作應向中央主管機關設置之就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費"},{"start":5026.272,"end":5041.165,"text":"但我想要跟部長報告的是法條其實並沒有明訂這個金額所以有沒有可能透過修正執法或是以韓式的方式讓申請者為障礙者時可以得以免繳或是減少繳納每月兩千元的就業安定費針對申請障礙者嗎對沒錯好我們來評估"},{"start":5044.168,"end":5062.236,"text":"那是不是可以請你們評估後將評估的這個結果跟我說當然當然當然謝謝委員謝謝我們可能也要跟衛福部一起啦是請你們一起一併評估因為我希望這個這個應該是一個可以幫身心障礙者的福利的部分希望我們的這個部長可以為他們來爭取這個福利好第二個"},{"start":5066.263,"end":5083.895,"text":"在昨天有跟部長討論到一個有關於這個加班46小時就不能免稅的部分那我總覺得這個部分沒有講得很清楚這部分我要再跟您請教一下部長的回答其實是會有這樣的加班費免稅的上限是希望不鼓勵不要鼓勵加班太超過這個程度對不對"},{"start":5086.119,"end":5099.557,"text":"是有一點這樣子有一點嘛對不對所以是我可以這樣理解沒錯嘛對不對所以事實上我也知道當然我也不希望我們都不希望那我們根據勞基法的32條僱主徵得勞工同意得延長工作時間"},{"start":5101.319,"end":5122.794,"text":"每個月延長工作時間的總時數不得超過46小時但如遇天災、事變或突發狀況有例外的規定,僱主經工會或勞資會議同意後,延長工作時間得才三個月總量控制但一個月不得超過54小時,每三個月不得超過138小時"},{"start":5131.96,"end":5141.688,"text":"勞資雙方同意的那在這前提之下對吧我們是不是可以還是可以我是不是還是可以理解為部長還是不太願意看到超過46小時的加班情況的存在"},{"start":5143.151,"end":5159.882,"text":"我們當然是希望能夠不要超過我們這樣的法定的加班一天啊所以你就是不習慣勞工加班這麼多嘛對不對是當然當然好那我根據主機住的統計我們臺灣薪資前三低的行業第一個是住宿跟餐飲業大概是34,711塊美容美髮大概是35,809塊製造業大概是44,143塊那同時加班工時最長的行業剛好也是製造業就是我們的製造業"},{"start":5172.43,"end":5199.751,"text":"這代表經常性薪資較低的這個製造業其實有這個願意加班的或者是實質上工時就是比較長的勞工群體,對嗎?是吧?部長是喔是,對不對應該是這樣子的對,所以其實喔部長我們剛剛說了這麼多我都知道我希望我們國家的每位勞工都不需要加班也不想加班了解但事實上我們卻不能忽略的確有一個藍領的這種製造業的勞工族群他們需要加班"},{"start":5201.332,"end":5227.99,"text":"但是部長就忽略他們的需求所以我這邊希望請部長正視這個需求的存在這個群體的存在但是他們需要多賺錢但是卻還被多課稅好這個部分那麼說到底就部長立場是不希望勞工加那麼多班的話對不對剛剛如果說完全不希望他們加那麼多班的話那何不直接乾脆推動修法就是讓他們整個下線這樣直接禁止超過每月46個小時的加班不要開啟任何例外"},{"start":5229.142,"end":5255.562,"text":"這樣的話可能造成的問題也很大啦對嘛是吧當然是也很大嘛對不對是是是因為這個有時候勞工確實他也有想要加班的意願因為想要多賺錢這個也是可以理解的然後我們也必須去體諒同情這種狀況那包括在企業裡面他有時候有這樣的需求對嘛部長所以說我們剛剛討論到現在你也講出一個實話嘛就是說我們只要超過這46小時的"},{"start":5257.043,"end":5276.835,"text":"是有存在的然後也有兩大重點七個就是企業客觀有這個需要的存在第二個是這個勞工有這樣的需要的存在那第三個就是勞資雙方必須同意吧對不對所以我覺得當初你說的你上次你昨天說的喔這樣可能會變相鼓勵他們加班我覺得這應該不應該是這樣考量的對吧這是"},{"start":5278.116,"end":5292.291,"text":"對啦 其實並不是說變相鼓勵他們加班我知道您的想法 那我們來這個應該要跟財政部商量沒關係 我繼續再講下去喔我把這個數據講清楚給你聽希望您有更有底氣的去講這件事情喔"},{"start":5292.992,"end":5313.046,"text":"根據這個2023年的新世代人才調查發現18到35歲在職人士近兩成有兼職收入其中六成多是跨領域兼職大多從事設計、教學和業務但是另外一個調查也發現過半新鮮人有這個意願從事兼職主要原因是想多賺錢然後正職收入太少"},{"start":5313.746,"end":5334.606,"text":"那所以剛剛看到就是不只是我們蘭嶺製造業想要賺錢社會新鮮人與白嶺上班族也想要多賺錢那我想部長也是很認真我們都是我想大家都很努力一定是責任制領同樣的法定的這個薪水的情況之下都努力完成任務但是我想剛剛重申有廣大勞工有這個加班的需求"},{"start":5335.666,"end":5360.713,"text":"那事實上根據112年你們這個勞工生活及就業狀況調查報告曾經加班超過46個小時的人口人數將近3%那換算下來部長知道多少嗎?大約大約是33萬的勞工所以我要跟部長講這是真實確實存在的一群人那麼我想部長身為我們臺灣勞工的大家長"},{"start":5363.308,"end":5370.863,"text":"我們是不是可以答應本席是不是可以代表勞工們去跟財政部爭取這46小時加班後這個免稅的範圍"},{"start":5372.964,"end":5398.411,"text":"我們來跟財政部來演繹看看好嗎?我們來跟他反映啦對我整個數據這樣邏輯順下來你應該是可以充分理解為什麼我提這件事情我了解那是不是也可以拜託您去幫忙全力的爭取喔所以感謝我們的部長為勞工人謀福利我們來跟財政部討論看看好嗎?但另外我要再提一個有關這個伙食費的免稅額度是否也可以一併爭取喔?"},{"start":5399.631,"end":5420.558,"text":"畢竟現在外食也越來越貴了那我想大家深有同感嘛同歐膨脹所以公司如果願意體諒勞工提供更好的福利我覺得我們也應該鼓勵所以我也想要爭取說部長是不是也可以一併的把這個伙食費的免稅額可以從每個月2400可不可以跟他們討論到增加到3000想說部長有沒有辦法來幫他們一併的反應"},{"start":5423.198,"end":5442.151,"text":"好,我們這個免稅額、伙食費的部分了解這是我的另外一題,沒有在簡報上對,我們來一起來反映看看好不好包括那個加班費嘛,是不是主要是那個加班費的免稅額的範圍因為有這個3%,大概30幾萬人就是有這個存在的需求"},{"start":5446.888,"end":5475.035,"text":"因為他就是需要錢因為又會牽涉到整個所得稅的調整財政部恐怕沒關係部長你只要你只要幫他們發聲努力去謀取這個福利因為我覺得他其實確實有必要的因為我剛剛這些數據都已經呈現給您看如果你需要我們本期也可以再把這個整理一份給您我覺得這是可以去跟財政部說的因為這批人甚至是有這個需求的存在好不好我也把數據都整理出來好另外喔"},{"start":5476.021,"end":5477.666,"text":"我要再加問一個這個低薪現象"},{"start":5478.943,"end":5490.985,"text":"我們的主計處昨天發布1至8月的薪資統計總薪資平均數成長是4.27%創10年最高實質經常性的薪資平均也連續5個月成長增幅為4年來最高實質總薪資增加的比例是1.92%也是近6年最高然後說打敗通膨部長對這樣的現象是不是覺得勞工之福"},{"start":5508.134,"end":5529.32,"text":"委員我們的實質經常性薪資真的是成長的而且包括像餐飲現在也創新高餐飲現在很低那麼他現在已經到達37,000這樣的水平好沒錯事實上部長但是我還是要提醒你這個要持續關注我這個不是不要高興的太早加薪追不上通膨其實才是常態"},{"start":5530.581,"end":5544.683,"text":"2022年以後這個經濟成長較為平穩加上CPI的增長仍高居不下其實導致2023年實質性的經常性的這個薪資跟實質性的薪資的增長全部都是負成長那其中"},{"start":5545.904,"end":5564.169,"text":"實質性的薪資更為2017年以來持續的負增長年增率是負1.04%那受僱的這些員工其實經常性薪資已經連續三年的負成長所以你只用今年這個一到八月看其實只是一小段那還有一個重點是什麼"},{"start":5565.009,"end":5577.868,"text":"其實就是昨天開始漲電價了就算經濟部保守的評估說CPI只增加0.03%那我想還是會有一大票的預防性的漲價的部分所以"},{"start":5581.994,"end":5597.527,"text":"這個部分我要提醒我們的部長是不是可以持續的關注那甚至是去調查其實之前我們這個會期的上半年也有通過所謂的中小企業發展條例等等的是鼓勵企業分享這個加薪給勞工嘛 對不對"},{"start":5598.328,"end":5615.676,"text":"好那我也想要提醒部長請你們持續追蹤看這件事情的成效究竟有沒有真正的展現出來好不好那情況到年底的時候尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題尤其是CPI的問題"},{"start":5631.636,"end":5637.046,"text":"請何部長每年的工商死亡人數大概多少?"},{"start":5644.363,"end":5670.365,"text":"公傷死亡的人數我們今年是60目前為止300對,一年大概320我去年是320然後我們最近在凱米颱風之後目前有兩個族人是因為在在都市工作因工作而死亡那我先跟你說報告一下就是9月24號有一個就是在"},{"start":5671.738,"end":5693.573,"text":"在苗栗的太安鄉在工作的時候被一個一頓重的大石掉下來打中了後來帶回去我們南投新義鄉他是一個沒有結婚的一個家裡也沒有父母親只有兄弟姐妹的一個原住民青年我最主要要講的問題就是說他後來發現沒有投保"},{"start":5694.694,"end":5710.028,"text":"每次都是還是會發生這些問題結果後來工會也在努力然後後來跟僱主達成一個協商就是說可能賠180萬那至於我剛才講的因為他的身份的關係"},{"start":5711.129,"end":5728.395,"text":"在職業災害的這個職災的這個申請當中很像沒有受益者也就是說他沒有父母親了也沒有結婚嘛只有兄弟姐妹可是一定是他兄弟姐妹幫他幫他買帳的啊可是這些費用就沒有人沒有人可以申請到所以這個部分可能要去看一下能不能對"},{"start":5729.795,"end":5733.996,"text":"邀請勞動部部長．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會的單身者死亡後的給付問題"},{"start":5749.52,"end":5777.413,"text":"這個僱主就很有良心僱主先賠了五百萬僱主自己拿出來的然後工地險有兩百萬團體意外險兩百萬一共拿了九百萬也就是說他還沒有加上勞保的這些給付他就已經拿到了九百萬那跟相較於這個一百八十萬實在是十萬八千里我的意思就是說你要去知道這個來龍去脈跟他的比較跟差距因為同樣的一個族人失去生命不要說族人啦國人失去生命的話"},{"start":5778.553,"end":5797.861,"text":"不同的家庭得到不同的一個待遇就天然之別那另外一個就是目前還在跟雇主協商的是0403的地震他是在台中離山工作結果石頭掉下來打到他後來住了家屋病房然後後來一段時間後過世了目前一毛錢都還沒有領到"},{"start":5799.361,"end":5827.751,"text":"還在跟僱主在那邊協商說最近要召開協調會還要找我過去那我意思是說像這種勞工死亡的這些我是覺得說還是希望我們勞動部這邊可以主動去積極的介入不然有些人是184萬有的人是900萬有的人是完全沒有領到你說這對同樣生活在台灣的這一塊土地上面因為工作在不同的地區然後遭受到這樣不平等的待遇我是覺得應該盡量去避免可以嗎好不好好"},{"start":5829.291,"end":5845.281,"text":"委員其實資災保險現在比較普遍比起勞保大家保得更多所以能夠更全面去瞭解一下科案的特殊性好不好那我們就針對112年原住民就業狀況調查來看我們原住民勞動參與率我們先看一下15到24歲"},{"start":5852.245,"end":5876.602,"text":"呃這個還有55歲以上反而是比一般民眾還要高也就是說真正需要工作25歲到54歲這一群人呢是比我們全國的那個工作的那個機會是比較低的所以這個部分可能要去想辦法來解決因為這個25歲到54歲政治他應該工作的時候他青壯年的時候比較有體力的時候卻他的工作卻比較低可以嗎"},{"start":5877.342,"end":5903.559,"text":"好 我們來了解對 反而是那個比較高齡的或者是比較低齡的工作的那個比例比較高所以會發生意外也是有它的還有就是我們大部分是從事營建、工程業、製造業及住宿餐禮可是住宿餐禮這個部分很像都是part-time的工作所以我們幾乎都是臨時性的工作這個部分可能要在它的就業的或者是說它的"},{"start":5904.42,"end":5927.775,"text":"我們在實施我們的數位課程不是我們在計劃的時候是不是應該能夠提升他們的一些專業領域不是永遠都是在看門或是洗盤子或是這些以後可以受到比較好的教育或者說受訓以後可以變成一個領台的或是櫃台人員或者是成為一個領導階層是不是不是永遠都是做那些比較低階層的"},{"start":5929.136,"end":5933.18,"text":"委員我們其實都有幫部落還有地方政府合作為原住民開設這種執訓的比較專業技能的專班那在8月1號我看到一個新聞是取消喬外森從事白嶺專機工作"},{"start":5949.798,"end":5965.738,"text":"那以後他們也可以從事像呃旅宿業這方面清潔的訂房接待啊所屬餐廳外廠工作這些工作就跟原住民的工作會重疊所以我就說是不是能夠呃比如說保障啊或者說有一些比例啊不要"},{"start":5966.238,"end":5994.59,"text":"有這個比例?有,我們有針對原民有保障比例喔是是是好,最後一個就是我們目前常常聽到民族民的高山巷島有一些工作上的一些危險那我想說這些人都沒有人在關心他們我先說他們當然收入可能相對比較高是一天四千四千五到五千可是常常會被山友臨時取消出團然後因為可能颱風就取消團然後就會被就遭遇到"},{"start":5995.43,"end":5995.53,"text":"還有就是說﹖"},{"start":6020.206,"end":6044.198,"text":"救難工作的時候會叫他們去結果沒有給他們任何一毛錢那就是義務性的所以這個部分是不是也應該說納入說以後大家救難的時候第一個想到他們可是卻沒有相對的收入跟保障給他們第三個就是我們上次有講到在勞動環境部的時候山上很多垃圾還有比如說我們去看有沒有人在盜採那些珍貴的木材"},{"start":6045.379,"end":6063.234,"text":"這些人高山協作工作他不是每天都有工作嗎所以這些人就可以把他們聘用為比如說我們農業部的啦或者是我們環境部的這些相關的這些高山的工作因為平常你不是那麼容易到達只有他們可以去所以這些人無論他的工作的一些"},{"start":6064.355,"end":6087.676,"text":"我們所謂的他的合約或是他的未來的工作的那個保障啊比如說投保的這個部分啊我想都沒有人在幫他們想辦法所以想說勞動部其實可以優先來去想說這些高三協助員他們未來工作的一個取向因為會越來越多人從事高三的活動嘛而且他們確實也是背負了那麼多的一個所謂的"},{"start":6088.897,"end":6107.393,"text":"很重要的工作因為目前他有一個高山工作執行是希望他們不要背超過30公斤這個30公斤也不是很合理因為他一定是先從重的開始因為他每天的消耗一定會有一定是從50公斤開始背背背然後下山的時候就變成大概十幾公斤所以這個高山工作執行就是沒有去實際參與的人去訂的"},{"start":6109.275,"end":6109.956,"text":"接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":6144.895,"end":6147.969,"text":"好 謝謝主席 來有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":6152.427,"end":6169.955,"text":"委員好部長好謝謝你今天早上相關的說明我們還是針對今天的主題來跟部長做一些討論一開始還是針對這個黑衣寶寶大家黑戶寶寶對不起當然人數不多可是對於我們來講認為這是一個還是要很關心的議題"},{"start":6180.559,"end":6197.948,"text":"在討論這個之前其實還是先肯定一下我們這個勞動力發展署目前所做的努力就是針對於這個友善就醫在這些移工友善就醫的部分做了很好的一個地圖專區對我們最近開通的10月1號開通"},{"start":6201.07,"end":6201.871,"text":"目前的移工人數約是80萬"},{"start":6219.06,"end":6237.387,"text":"如果再加上沒有掌握到可能有將近百萬那不知道目前10月1號到現在有多少位的人員加入到這個LINE app裡面當作常常在瀏覽或是需要協助的時候他們可以用的工具目前有沒有掌握到這個數據"},{"start":6241.01,"end":6245.473,"text":"我們如果是有100萬左右的話當然很希望才兩個多禮拜的時間就有到這麼好的成績期待"},{"start":6266.685,"end":6291.142,"text":"會有更完整的這些人員來參與不知道在座各位包括部長、署長有參加嗎?有,有,署長有參加他每天都在看這樣才能夠實際掌握到他的動態而且如果真的需要協助或怎麼樣的話可以在第一時間就發動協助的部分當然從中央、部裡面、署裡面還有地方"},{"start":6292.123,"end":6314.654,"text":"期待他們共同的來針對移工就醫的部分可以有更完整的一些配套措施這是很感謝的部分那黑戶寶寶其實目前我們知道他們還是很需要大家共同來照顧不管他的狀況是如何那我們也知道財源還是一個問題"},{"start":6316.275,"end":6341.041,"text":"其實金額不是很多可是對於這些照顧還是畢竟需要一些財力來能夠支持所以包括黑戶寶寶還有失聯移工的醫療代帳因為我在醫療單位了解的過程裡面我們的部立醫院基本上都是由他們在負責處理這些不管是失聯移工或者是黑戶寶寶的醫療"},{"start":6342.761,"end":6358.575,"text":"對他們來講也是一個負擔所以這部分有沒有相關的演繹可以讓我們了解需不需要跨部會的協助有,其實委員在之前行政院有召開跨部會的會議在陳建仁院長的時代"},{"start":6359.836,"end":6381.081,"text":"那麼當然衛福部也希望我們勞動部這邊因為這是這樣我們這個幾乎都是私聯的移工而產生的醫療費用包括他的可能生育或是各方面那這方面我們"},{"start":6382.501,"end":6409.274,"text":"當然我們有跨部會的討論這個要怎麼去補貼醫院在這部分的費用的承擔因為現在都是醫院他被迫要大概買單這些這樣的醫療費用薪水還不少其實越來越多這樣子那我們正在討論當中希望很快會有結果不然的話對這個醫院來講當然還是一個很大的負擔"},{"start":6410.414,"end":6433.683,"text":"公務預算嗎因為這個會牽扯到下一個問題就是那未來我們有沒有辦法有效的去強化外國仲介的課則我記得之前我們有討論這個議題尤其跟印度簽了MOU以後現在進入到實質討論的話那未來對於這個外國仲介是不是我們也希望把相關的需求連帶的納進來包括遣還"},{"start":6436.464,"end":6457.004,"text":"費的負擔、收容費的負擔還有醫療費用的負擔是,我們對失聯移工、對醫療費用我們現在正在試圖跟來源國協商我們在每一個來源國的雙邊會議上我們都有提出這樣的議題就是你所產生的失聯移工的這樣子的醫療費用我們現在試圖往這個方向來處理這樣子"},{"start":6459.266,"end":6486.419,"text":"好那如果有什麼結果或什麼那個成效的話是我們跟委員拿來提供並回報是好謝謝那再過來就要請教薪資提升的政策還有壯高齡勞工權益的問題是因為剛好今天今天行政院的這個經發會也在討論一些改善低薪啊如果能夠讓所有的青年族群能夠得到有效的改善"},{"start":6488.219,"end":6512.11,"text":"另外就是針對於這些教育部也相折之下要研議薪資透明還有企業內部薪資的結構等等的問題請教一下當我們努力的在提升這個最低工資還有最低的這個小時工資的同時其實我們也很關心中介的我們這些勞動朋友"},{"start":6513.391,"end":6541.577,"text":"目前還有沒有什麼樣的政策或者是有哪一些相對有效的方案讓他們已經在這個職場裡面有一個成熟的環境可是他看著下面的這些新進的同仁好像工資越來越倍進跟他同樣的當然還是有差距可是呢他的感受應該是會不太一樣我是不知道因為你身為這個我們勞動朋友的這個最高主管"},{"start":6542.617,"end":6556.184,"text":"的這個相關人員有沒有同步的去設想這些中階勞工在這方面有未來哪一些好的政策或者是相關的政策配套可以協助這一部分的我們的勞動朋友們"},{"start":6556.69,"end":6583.762,"text":"我們最新的這樣子勞動部這邊我們就是主動我在報告裡面有提就是我們跟金管會合作我們在上市櫃公司的ESG裡面他們的報告書裡面我們要求揭露非主管職的薪資的狀況那麼我們希望透過這種揭露讓大家尤其是有能力支付的上市櫃公司先來啦他們那個能夠讓他們提升"},{"start":6585.583,"end":6608.715,"text":"這個他們的所有的大概最低工資以上的以上的這樣的人員的薪水我們是希望目前用這樣子薪資透明化的方式來處理這樣子對那這樣的話也希望能夠帶動對就是還有包括就是政府我們今年提供這是提高的軍公教條新嘛其實軍公教條新對"},{"start":6610.376,"end":6626.147,"text":"最低工資以上的勞工朋友的那個薪資提升會有示範效果企業會普遍加薪你比像台書企業他就加了4%我會說比較有能力的企業他就會跟進這樣子所以我們也是希望能夠呼籲企業在這方面要多善待"},{"start":6627.261,"end":6628.742,"text":"我們期待從各方面都可以來努力讓所有的同仁都有機會得到這邊的好處"},{"start":6653.591,"end":6669.38,"text":"再過來請教中高齡工作保障從媒體我們最近也發現因為數位化、淨零碳排的轉型導致在之前相對資深的員工中高齡工作權"},{"start":6670.541,"end":6690.43,"text":"受到的影響那這一部分有沒有更有效的行政救濟措施或者是未來如何預作安排我們知道每一個公司可能都會面臨同樣的問題的時候那如何能夠有機會去預作相關的安排來減少這個事件或是類似的情形再度發生"},{"start":6692.042,"end":6714.816,"text":"委員我們當然在這個法制面上其實現在中高零專法對你以年齡為名的之前或者是那個我們是會罰款的所以像這個個案他就是用中高零法去罰他他被罰了60萬這個公司所以其實是有法律政策工具那當然您講的應該是預防端那預防端"},{"start":6717.478,"end":6741.565,"text":"確實這個包括淨零碳排、包括數位轉型這都是勞工朋友面臨的挑戰那我們在這方面也是廣泛的就是包括我們對就業訓練我們也是不停的投注資源在做各種補助然後也協助勞工朋友在這方面做技能的提升的自我訓練跟我們協助他這樣子我們也都有補助的很多"},{"start":6742.985,"end":6762.919,"text":"對我們希望勞動朋友知道自己的權益那同時也針對於這些公司也能夠進行有效的勸導也好或者是必要的處罰也好我想很多企業可能還不知道你如果用年齡歧視來之前的話是會被罰的這個我們來加強宣導好不好是好那最後有關於這個退休後"},{"start":6763.519,"end":6781.789,"text":"重返原聘單位的鼓勵制度這一部分其實媒體真的討論非常非常的多所以如何能夠讓借領退休的這些同仁們他要原聘也好或者是要退休以後就是續聘或者是退休以後再聘"},{"start":6783.11,"end":6809.002,"text":"引發很多很多的討論是我相信這一批退休早一定還會有很多的事謝謝委員的修法勞基法54條修正以後這部分真的引起的社會的這樣的討論是非常多這也是一個好事因為大家都開始重視那很多想覺得自己還有工作能力的勞工朋友也會開始思考那我要不要跟公司來討論這件事所以當然會引起一些討論那麼我們也在嘗試從這些"},{"start":6812.603,"end":6830.138,"text":"各案的處理中然後來看看我們有什麼更好的方法來推動這個修法的落實好,我們很期待透過更多的討論以後讓這樣的美意可以真的讓所有的高齡者即使退休以後還可以充滿智障是是是,謝謝委員謝謝王振旭委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":6843.443,"end":6851.287,"text":"主席 各位大家午安喔 早安我也不曉得什麼安我們請這個何部長請何部長"},{"start":6858.529,"end":6875.448,"text":"部長 我們行政院公秘書長他們在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面開會然後曾經在經濟發展委員會的顧問會議裡面提到就是說可以借盡各國薪資透明化的做法"},{"start":6878.452,"end":6901.031,"text":"由勞動部去定義低薪勞工的這個界定大概講的那段話我們看那個報導是這樣講的就是說當會後的記者會說針對薪資政策目前政府已經有最低工資法以及中小企業加薪抵稅等規範但對顧問來說這不足以解決所有的問題因此建議政府參考國外做法"},{"start":6902.312,"end":6918.453,"text":"行政院經發會顧問會議講到說要思考薪資透明度專法推動企業薪資透明度以及定義低薪勞工等秘書長說單純提高最低工資恐怕沒有辦法完全解決低薪勞工問題"},{"start":6919.835,"end":6932.165,"text":"最低工資雖然已經保障最底層的勞工但是每月比最低工資高新台幣一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪這部分就必須要討論和研議因此勞動部將先討論這個族群"},{"start":6936.668,"end":6957.353,"text":"就是如何定義然後後續政府才有定義以後才可能有政策對應和支持但這一些都還要進行這個社會性的對話然後再提到這個下一次的經發會委員會討論請問他這個是第一次那現在第二次也開完了你們他開完以後你們有沒有定義出來委員是指第一次的定義嗎"},{"start":6963.09,"end":6974.473,"text":"對啊,他不是這樣講,我講那些我剛剛念的中文你都聽不懂嗎?什麼叫低薪勞工的定義?比最低工資多一千元或兩千元算不算低薪?"},{"start":6976.504,"end":6994.419,"text":"因為這個是這樣子我們勞動部我們在最低工資這個部分當然先低薪的定義是很多部長你不要這樣子聰明如你不要在這裡故意拖時間閃閃躲躲然後就主席時間到了叫我下去我是不會下去喔我先在這裡說明喔我是不會下台我一定要問到出來喔你"},{"start":7002.458,"end":7024.984,"text":"行政院的經濟發展委員會已經責成勞動部要去定義低薪勞工的界定那人家新聞稿、新聞報導就說請問比最低工資多一千元、兩千元的人算不算低薪或是你們現在在八月人家經發會的顧問會議"},{"start":7027.185,"end":7053.774,"text":"所有產官學都交給你們要去定義出來你們現在定義出來的介於意義是什麼這麼簡單你為什麼還要這樣顧左右而言他呢委員不好意思因為我們那個因為是這樣我們關於最低薪資的定義我們大概是參考OECD薪資中位數的三分之二這樣來定義那請問現在最低薪資的中位數是多少"},{"start":7056.343,"end":7064.774,"text":"4萬6的三分之二是多少?3萬1所以現在最低薪資在明年的1月1號是28590元那多1000元是29590元然後再多2000元是30590元"},{"start":7073.124,"end":7092.459,"text":"所以如果照你這樣講的你們界定出來比最低工資勞基法所訂的最低那個不是勞基法抱歉我們現在最低工資所公佈的28590多1000元或2000元的人算是低薪喔就是你們界定的低薪對不對好來我們看一下你們的"},{"start":7096.285,"end":7106.055,"text":"這個是今年9月底你們界定最低薪資什麼叫做低薪?你們自己勞發署開出來的求職"},{"start":7108.857,"end":7128.188,"text":"求職的月薪兩萬九千兩百六十一一個是就純粹兩萬九千兩百六十一另外一個是兩萬九千兩百六十一到三萬二幾乎都是在你界定的低薪的範疇裡面是你們勞發署看一下工作內容要做什麼你們勞發署勞動部帶頭開出這種低薪職缺然後今天這個"},{"start":7137.194,"end":7149.251,"text":"勞動部也界定這是低薪的缺然後今天立法院要你談的報告是如何有效提升國內薪資水準、落實保障政府機關內勞工的權益"},{"start":7152.253,"end":7167.807,"text":"你們政府機關內你們界定出低薪以後還開出兩萬九你們界定的低薪連政府都帶頭給低薪啊然後你來看你的報告你今天的業務報告的那個專題報告的書面第2頁"},{"start":7171.249,"end":7195.26,"text":"你們在講說 你們一開始有講如果這個有效的保障機關單位內的勞工的權益然後提升薪資水準你們第二頁講說將勞務委外所運用的承攬或派遣也有勞基法可以適用所以我們定會督促各頁廠商遵守勞基法的履約管理和監督責任然後呢"},{"start":7195.64,"end":7219.007,"text":"本部一定令這個機關構裡面運用勞務承攬的參考原則一定要至少一定要保障這個在法律的規範裡面你們都知道3萬2以內都叫低薪的你們主動開出來的也是2萬9然後你在這裡告訴我們立法委員說我一定會叫他們遵守這個勞基法答非所問好委員我跟你講明年對這個我們都會調到3萬2對這樣的人員"},{"start":7223.652,"end":7238.516,"text":"好,所以你們要全面,你要怎麼調?你的全面,你的預算裡面,你的勞務採購,你的這個承攬的經費都有調整嗎?你從兩萬...對啊,就是我們要承攬經費,我們給他多錢啊?"},{"start":7241.994,"end":7252.799,"text":"你們從什麼時候開始要準備這麼做?你的預算有編列進去嗎?有編了最好是如此你們這個東西喔"},{"start":7255.126,"end":7273.259,"text":"我是打問號啦而且是走回頭路啦行政院在2018年5月18號就提出了十大政策提高薪資十大政策2018年然後就喊出了公部門主動要解決低薪的樓地板式新台幣3萬元"},{"start":7275.42,"end":7288.664,"text":"然後呢第一項政策就是你們認為公部門要帶頭解決嘛你們機關構裡面要先解決嘛所以你們具體的作為在2018年是提升低薪者總薪資到3萬元結果呢2024年還在開2萬9"},{"start":7293.277,"end":7295.158,"text":"現在說一套做一套然後呢新資未達三萬元的當時2018年就講未達三萬元的時候這個要逐漸漸進式提升然後"},{"start":7309.69,"end":7319.997,"text":"再看後面你們的那個勞務存攬的部分當時2018年是以加分去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪或均薪這個3萬當時是這樣子薪資水準這個達到3萬以上的投標廠商給予加分"},{"start":7326.681,"end":7345.282,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7345.991,"end":7357.443,"text":"給我們講一個你要怎麼樣叫這些勞務承攬的人最低薪資都要3萬2你剛剛講的那麼隨便來你告訴我你的政策手段政策手段還有你的勞務採購你要怎麼處理勞務承攬我們馬上去改這個標準可以嗎啊怎麼改怎麼改馬上改啊啊怎麼改改在哪裡啊"},{"start":7372.466,"end":7383.439,"text":"是要按照標規你要怎麼定?你是要講全數員工的薪資要3萬2以上?還是說每個個別員工的薪資都要3萬2以上?"},{"start":7386.069,"end":7400.653,"text":"我現在就問你喔,署長我不要問你喔,我在問你保證你現在講的喔,在這裡要作為成堂證供喔在這裡成功喔明年所有的勞務承攬在招標須知、招標規定都要規定"},{"start":7403.314,"end":7419.428,"text":"眼裡每一個來承攬、要來做這個勞務承攬的公司每一個員工的薪資都要達到三萬兩千元以上的這個標準才有投標資格請問你是不是這樣子你剛才說的是這樣騙我們的喔現在我問你你會跟我說是不是這樣子"},{"start":7426.738,"end":7428.3,"text":"請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能"},{"start":7445.56,"end":7466.274,"text":"你現在回答我說你明年全部都要3萬2以上我剛才問你一句你告訴我你的招標資格一定要他的公司裡面每一個上班的員工都是3萬元你來公部門要投標的這個員工每一個薪資都要實質是3萬2以上你剛剛講是這樣子喔是不是是不是"},{"start":7473.089,"end":7473.289,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7496.107,"end":7518.941,"text":"平均總薪資平均總薪資我就知道不要來這一套我剛剛講2018年就講你還沒講平均總薪資我就跟你講了當時在勞務承攬就是用加分的去鼓勵廠商幫員工加薪均薪三萬平均總薪資三萬不是個別勞工"},{"start":7522.083,"end":7537.51,"text":"所以你在這裡剛才剛才說到大聲現在叫回去啊不是個別每一個都三萬二那你剛才幹嘛講得那麼快為什麼剛才吹牛講大話講得這麼快你剛才回答我那一段再放出來再看一下你幹嘛講大話在這裡欺騙立委要不是我戳破你吹牛的氣球"},{"start":7550.1,"end":7556.902,"text":"你現在就講退縮回去了你就是這樣子對立委的你藐視立法院是你的習慣你對立委下指導期也是你的習慣秘書長、副秘書長當久了你指揮我們總召、總召再來指揮我們黨團的立委你也去問我們這裡的立委很好去問我們"},{"start":7575.214,"end":7582.658,"text":"好 我們回到言歸正傳所以你這邊講3萬2以下都是低薪你自己公部門開這種薪水"},{"start":7584.828,"end":7593.592,"text":"這是確實需要檢討那委員因為當年是2018年那其實我現在講是2020年這是9月25你們開出來還是這個薪水我要跟您澄清就是剛剛我講的OECD的平均薪資的中位數的三分之二這個定義是剛剛才我跟你講我剛才都沒有說我講這些都是你講的委員我問你答的"},{"start":7609.199,"end":7621.63,"text":"有說什麼你們界定因為行政院經發會的顧問會議要求你們界定什麼叫低薪那要到今天下午才會定案的事情那因為那你剛才在回答我是隨便親在老公公的喔不是我們準備這麼跟行政院報告對告訴你嘛對三萬二啊這一個"},{"start":7629.057,"end":7648.835,"text":"標準在過去從來沒有定義過對啊,人家在兩個月前就責成你要去定義了所以我才問你啊我監督政府就是要問你這個,要不然你在這裡在幹嘛的我誠實跟你們報告啊,是是對,所以我問你,你們低薪定義這樣子而政府現在開帶頭"},{"start":7652.718,"end":7659.96,"text":"帶頭給的薪資就是兩萬九就是帶頭給第一次所以我們現在要來檢討那麼也編載一百一十四年度的預算拜託委員支持我就講說你的檢討的並不是真實的檢討沒關係啦我現在再說第二次我們政府很早就是也是包括2018年我們的總統任內就喊出零派遣"},{"start":7675.865,"end":7690.009,"text":"那因為零派遣所以所有勞務承攬的人數都變成一直成長根據人事總處成長的統計行政院以及所屬機關勞務承攬派助人數統計從2018年107年到112年這個去年年底第4季為主"},{"start":7700.445,"end":7709.267,"text":"6年內成長幅度平均整個行政院及所屬機關成長幅度是19.3%但是勞動部及所屬成長高達47%勞動部及所屬在2018年第4季是1833人到112年的第4季是2696人"},{"start":7726.158,"end":7745.549,"text":"人家總的行政院機關內成長幅度19.3%你們成長幅度是47.08%而且而且你們這個勞務承攬計畫的員工多數低薪一族所以你們在那邊講說你們要改進你們人數這麼多你要怎麼改進"},{"start":7750.667,"end":7753.938,"text":"你說要落實保障政府機關內的勞工的權益你們是帶頭給低薪啦"},{"start":7759.397,"end":7785.369,"text":"保定光是你們貴部跟你們的機關所屬就開出這樣的勞務承攬缺而且還是最多的還是在你們勞發署你們叫人家這個工作性質要審查聘僱外國人申請案這樣的薪資要多少才合理工作地點還要到這個中華路一段39號中正區"},{"start":7789.506,"end":7808.414,"text":"兩千九百兩萬九千兩百六十億元扣掉勞健保實領薪資兩萬八千一百二十二我們可以理解這個是勞務採購你就付給這個廠商是價金你們也你剛剛講說你明年要改善但是呢你你你"},{"start":7812.577,"end":7840.601,"text":"要去修正這個強化保障勞務承攬勞工的權益但是呢回到勞發署分署和各就業服務中心或就業服務站你們勞務承攬採購的價金最大宗還是這個勞務薪資啊你們的預算成長率是多少來預算成長率是多少你們就勞發署裡面的就業服務站和中心勞務承攬採購的價金預算成長率是多少"},{"start":7841.81,"end":7850.699,"text":"蘇菲委員,是不是十幾分?好,沒關係,我最後一題,我其他還不問了3%以上3%?你從2萬9要跳到3萬2是幾%?你說你們有編列預算要幫人家加薪?"},{"start":7861.403,"end":7864.488,"text":"你預算成長率3%你知道你們現在開出來的職缺兩萬九要給人家加三千元到三萬二三千元這是10%以上欸"},{"start":7878.035,"end":7893.17,"text":"我們目前的勞務承攬的人員其實他是有四個級別那剛剛委員講的是最低的那一級就是業務佐理員兩萬九我們其實其他三級目前的薪資都超過三萬二以上甚至有到三萬八"},{"start":7893.831,"end":7904.138,"text":"所以他們不用加薪嗎?他們不用加薪?公務人員都要加薪的?你的就業服務站、就業服務中心、你的勞發署裡面的這些勞務承攬的業務人員,他們通通不用加薪嗎?把所有的3%的Quota都用來最低一級嗎?有可能嗎?"},{"start":7915.265,"end":7939.716,"text":"跟委員報告都加薪現在只是委員在關心他們都加3%啦都加3%啦所以最低一級也是加3%啦但是因為最低那一級我們在明年我們準備要整個都提升一級那加了之後明年的預算不是所有其他都類似像這個加級就是說它的佔比其實是10%我們在預算裡面是反映這個部分"},{"start":7940.424,"end":7957.567,"text":"你現在不要講這麼多你就告訴我說你在未來勞務承攬的招標須知、招標規範要怎麼具體去規範這樣子就好了招標資格對,我們會具體規範就是要以這樣的薪資標準去禁用我們所有的承攬人員"},{"start":7958.26,"end":7986.861,"text":"所以今天在這裡 主席他這個報告我們都聽得下去啦他今天在裡面說的是說我們這些委外的勞務就會叫他們遵守法律現在法律是兩萬八千五百九十就夠了所以他根本沒有任何的政治承諾在這裡面欸完全沒有欸他講青年 我還有一部分沒有講青年就業他講這個是什麼內容這裡是高空 打高空講一講蓄以為一立法院大家就這樣子就結束了"},{"start":7988.042,"end":8001.867,"text":"因為時間的關係,所以那個部長或者是署長是會後再跟署分委員做一個報告,好不好?他們會後哪有來報告,叫部長本人來報告嗎?當然有來報告,不要啦,再多排幾次我再繼續問啦先這樣子 因為時間的關係啦好,那我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":8611.206,"end":8631.076,"text":"好 休息時間結束 那我們繼續開會我們請下一位委員 陸先驅委員發言好 謝謝主席 那請一下我們何部長好 有請何部長"},{"start":8636.116,"end":8647.861,"text":"部長我請問一下那個中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通你知不知道這家公司知道對因為他這個針對"},{"start":8651.394,"end":8666.509,"text":"老公爭議的問題之前也躍上媒體好像上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議他們說從7月開始他們就被中斷了船員的勞健保而且長時間也不再派任他們到"},{"start":8667.568,"end":8672.052,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」進行專題"},{"start":8690.826,"end":8708.461,"text":"這個跟定期或不定期無關主要是他那個勞保中斷保的問題因為我們當時勞保局有確實明確的告訴他在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保不能再"},{"start":8711.784,"end":8738.52,"text":"就是沒有契約關係啦對,因為這個部分之前我們那個交通委員魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長所以他說也很明確講他這個航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約是由勞資雙方來決議那現在我想請問一下我們今天是勞保司司長來嘛,是吧"},{"start":8740.302,"end":8765.674,"text":"我們市長對那你看一下針對中鋼運通其實他一直以來在今年7月之前他的勞健保都是一直持續加保不管這個船員是在岸還是離岸一直都在投保的對不對他這個是對沒有錯那也表示說是他們資方主動替他們加保了"},{"start":8765.894,"end":8791.042,"text":"所以也表示中央運通一直都有在持續加保也就是說他一直都有持續加保所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係是沒有問題的吧他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍我們沒有針對這個但是他一直都有保勞健保嘛所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保是不是一定也要從這邊退保所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的啊"},{"start":8791.762,"end":8820.609,"text":"對那個是他們確實有存在這樣的狀態所以一直有保勞健保所以他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎一直在那邊保勞健保那是兩件事我們只管勞保條例這個部分好那重點所以他一直有保勞健保那對中央運動這些員工來講他認為他們這個是不定期契約我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊不委員他們是定期契約或不定期契約不是勞動部界定的"},{"start":8821.973,"end":8832.36,"text":"那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身因為特別法優於普通法啦他不是我勞基法主管的範圍啦那勞動企業的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎不是就是這個船員的勞動企業是船員法這個特別法去認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我"},{"start":8846.898,"end":8866.004,"text":"所以傳言法不是對傳言法是交通部航港局主管的那可是他這個是勞工啊他也算是勞工啊對他是勞工沒有錯可是他不是勞基法我這邊管的員工啦我管勞工啦那所以勞基法第9條你的意思說勞基法這個第9條這個勞動契約的規範"},{"start":8870.502,"end":8898.264,"text":"不包含傳援這些勞工嗎?第9條是一個普遍的陳述嘛它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述傳援法它會有它的特別規定我再講一遍法律原則是特別法優於普通法所以傳援法優於勞基法優先適用於傳援所以傳援它的勞僱關係的界定必須從傳援法去處理那它這個傳援法它一直保有這個勞健保難道它不算它的勞工嗎?"},{"start":8899.298,"end":8918.775,"text":"啊?不算誰的勞工?不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎?他是中鋼運通的勞工啊可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何?那是交通部、航港局依據傳言法要去認定的,不是我那他現在找勞動部,勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎?因為我們,而且他們都在訴訟中,我們只能關懷"},{"start":8920.556,"end":8947.488,"text":"所以我請問一下我們勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於我們勞動部管轄認定的嗎有啊我們在勞保這個關於他斷保的事情我們很明確的告訴他們你下了船你就是關於勞保這件事因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已對我們有告訴他下了船就是那個就是要去別的地方加保啊"},{"start":8948.248,"end":8962.479,"text":"我們這是有明確告訴中央運動的,對啊所以他這個定期契約不定期契約我們勞動部沒有辦法貫典這不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦那所以我們勞基法第9條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉"},{"start":8964.091,"end":8982.845,"text":"對阿是阿因為這是一個普通法我們勞基法是一個普通法所以我的意思是說他要依據傳言法去看除非傳言法有去定義他的定期契約或不定期契約所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候我們勞動部有明確告知他們說這些傳言"},{"start":8986.167,"end":9003.403,"text":"針對勞動企業的認定,傳言法是不是由勞動部來?我們面對他們都講得很清楚,因為我們必須依法行政,這真的是我們的困難。他一直要求我們要求中央運動無條件地去幫他們付保,那事實上不是我能處理的。"},{"start":9005.464,"end":9031.11,"text":"所以我現在也希望說勞動部針對這一部分針對他們的權責各方面認定與否希望能夠很明確告知他們不然他們一直都認定說這個勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定不管是定期不定期勞動部應該是要去認定不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嗎"},{"start":9033.651,"end":9054.104,"text":"這個我們跟他們講過啦,其實講過耶所以我希望部長很明確的告知,不然他們變成到這一部分,他們一直認為說勞動部基本上在推卸責任,變成勞動部針對這勞基法,定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定,居然交給法院去認定"},{"start":9056.466,"end":9076.325,"text":"好那這部分我希望還是說清楚講明白也不要搞得曖昧不清沒有曖昧不清其實我們講得很清楚好謝謝謝謝那還有針對我們勞保年金我們現在看這個勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大那也看一下明年度我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1300億元"},{"start":9081.049,"end":9084.212,"text":"然後這6年來我們看一下我們6年我們勞動部撥補預算金大概達到3870億然後部長在接受訪問的時候也有講說要持續撥補確保制度的持續穩健運作所以"},{"start":9104.288,"end":9127.307,"text":"這樣也意味著我們往後這個撥補應該就是變成常態化了是的對嘛那如果如果居然已經撥補是常態化那而且我們現在朝野很多立委其實不分藍綠都已經有提案希望把這個撥補法制化那部長你支持這個撥補法制化嗎我支持啊"},{"start":9128.26,"end":9137.064,"text":"所以部長也願意嘛那我想了解一下當然是支持的不過我要跟委員就是說撥補法制的話我們已經在實踐了那我請問一下行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎"},{"start":9144.548,"end":9169.74,"text":"委員,我們用行政作為在實踐的那立法院的要修法案我們都支持都支持嗎?所以各委員提的版本其實基本上部長也都希望支持希望法治化我只支持那單一條文希望法治化就是政府附最終撥補責任那一條而已其他我保留所以我們也希望召委能夠盡快來排審"},{"start":9171.553,"end":9177.197,"text":"這個只有那一條我是在建立我希望委員您能夠幫忙我們也不要因為省的那一條砍年金的訴求又出來然後又要我們砍年金這我們幫不到我是說針對撥補常態化居然已經是常態化已經是每年在做"},{"start":9193.348,"end":9208.069,"text":"所以我們說居然是常態化就寧可這樣我們就修改給它法制化嘛如果只有那一條是OK的對 針對法制化所以針對法制化如果法制化通過部長也當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去"},{"start":9209.631,"end":9219.616,"text":"那就是 那就取決於政府的財政能力了就不要常常都用撥補法制化的目的就是編列預算委員 那是同一件事政府負最終撥補責任就是撥補的這一個預算"},{"start":9225.3,"end":9244.601,"text":"我們現在已經在實踐了但是我的意思是說不要每年都用撥補的嘛你為什麼不給他法制化沒有就是撥補啊對啊就編列預算進去嘛對啊法制化就是編列預算那我早就已經在編預算了對啊所以基本上也支持我們委員提案給他法制化嘛"},{"start":9245.181,"end":9264.224,"text":"這個我是支持的我只是說單一那一條而已就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條所以我們現在擔心不要到時候法制化你看現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊你看禁法補償也已經通過法制化通過以後也不編預算會不會到時候我們這個"},{"start":9266.251,"end":9284.041,"text":"這個法制化以後他這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦呢?不可能啦委員你想想看沒有法制化我們都在撥補了更何況是法制化所以一定會撥補嘛對不對一定會一定會不管有沒有入法我們都有在一定會常態性撥補對啊所以我們是真的是希望齁就是委員我真的在強調"},{"start":9285.302,"end":9304.41,"text":"不要因為修了這一條,又要我們砍年金啦,這個沒有沒有,我們就是針對,我們是希望這個撥補給他,既然你已經說是常態,我們就給他正常法制化,也希望這個經費都能夠正常來運作,所以當然也要編列啊,對不對?"},{"start":9305.39,"end":9305.75,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請何部長"},{"start":9335.959,"end":9354.924,"text":"檢核部長部長好部長首先先就我們現在移工的問題來請教部長因為其實我們在基層看到很多移工外籍移工或者是這個這個落跑移工這樣講啦"},{"start":9356.204,"end":9381.517,"text":"其實有很多我們很多尤其是在鄉下地區可能是養雞、養豬可能都有這樣子的失聯移工去幫忙那確實因為有時候這些農場他們就需要人力所以他們有的就真的就是用了這些失聯移工"},{"start":9382.898,"end":9391.37,"text":"我們看到說目前臺灣的移工人數也將近80萬人失聯移工有8萬7千多人這樣有十分之一"},{"start":9399.961,"end":9418.852,"text":"如果照這樣的話就是有十分之一的移工是進來之後然後他可能就走了那像這樣的問題我不知道說勞動部針對這個你們未來要怎麼去解決甚至最近幾天有人跟我講說某一個地方"},{"start":9421.314,"end":9446.119,"text":"這個工廠它用了十幾個失聯移工然後它有報案、它有檢舉結果可能這個專勤隊或是什麼就應該也知道有這個狀況所以我知道說這個問題確實是非常的嚴重那我認為就是說不論是內政部也好或者是我覺得勞動部應該要去正視這個問題"},{"start":9448.139,"end":9474.569,"text":"怎麼樣讓這些失聯移工讓他未來不要一直躲在這個陰暗的角落怎麼樣讓他變成合法或者是說怎麼樣讓他如果他真的是非法那是不是要讓他出去所以我覺得這個問題要解決要不然你失聯移工真的確實越來越多對台灣確實也不是很好"},{"start":9475.089,"end":9478.991,"text":"是那我不知道說勞動部針對這一部分是謝謝委員我們確實是講到這個您來自那個我想彰化地區那個地方我覺得在我們農村尤其是我們農村真的是勞動力很缺乏"},{"start":9490.636,"end":9494.959,"text":"對,所以我們從去年開了一萬兩千名的農業的移工我們在最新的九月二十幾號的跨國勞動力的審查上面我們又再增加了給八千個名額所以現在已經累計有兩萬個農業移工的名額我們允許他進來了"},{"start":9511.169,"end":9528.039,"text":"那麼我們一方面希望透過這種增加正常就是正式的這樣的合法的移工的這樣的數量然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工能夠逐漸的把它稀釋掉啦那你這樣子之後有比較改善嗎?有有有改善蠻多的"},{"start":9532.421,"end":9561.196,"text":"那其次是委員跟委員報告您講的原來的失聯移工的是否讓他就地轉正啊這確實是一個社會上有在討論的議題那委員這我們其實目前我們正在也在考慮這討論這一個就業服務法的修正關於這一個失聯移工的這一個就地轉正的是否啦是否就地轉正的這個議題我們也正在思考當中"},{"start":9561.616,"end":9580.35,"text":"我覺得要去正視這個問題要不然它這個數字就是一直在那邊整個社會上就確實有這樣的失聯移工在那裡而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡只是可能地方有這個可能也許有勞務的需求"},{"start":9581.451,"end":9597.929,"text":"所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦另外一個議題就是我們剛剛有幾位委員有特別提到就是我們這個女性移工進來之後她如果懷孕那懷孕之後確實有時候她如果雇主"},{"start":9598.55,"end":9618.921,"text":"他會覺得說我原本是要你是有勞動力的移工進來幫忙的那你現在懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況那也許會不會就因為這樣子然後被解僱那我希望就是說這個問題確實也存在我之前碰到一位僱主"},{"start":9619.901,"end":9635.73,"text":"他就請了女性的移工嘛那她就懷孕了那懷孕之後其實這個女性移工她自己也很會保護自己啦她就跟老闆說她懷孕了那確實也真的懷孕了那懷孕之後她說她原本的工作她不能再做"},{"start":9636.71,"end":9636.73,"text":"致詢議員"},{"start":9657.023,"end":9677.669,"text":"你現在這樣子我工廠裡面就少了一個人力那你還這樣子我讓你做最輕鬆的工作你還這樣子所以我覺得這個勞動部應該也要去正視這樣的問題未來如果這樣子的狀況那僱主應該也有權利來保障他自己的權益當然就是委員"},{"start":9679.729,"end":9692.795,"text":"我覺得就是說在這個方面我們也要強調啦雙方可以合一解約的那麼合一解約我們會提供給牢固雙方同時的法律輔助啦我們未來這麼做就是說"},{"start":9695.056,"end":9717.815,"text":"除了保護移工的合法的權利之外我們對僱主的這樣的聘僱權也是也應該要有所那個幫助目前有對我們也是一樣應該要可以告訴僱主就是說這是可以合意解約的那麼就是說他因為他合意解約事實上其實"},{"start":9719.316,"end":9734.007,"text":"如果他說他不做了嘛他不做了嘛那那個部分的話像這種個案我跟委員報告因為這種情況確實實務上存在因為雙方都其實都不可規則"},{"start":9735.208,"end":9762.053,"text":"那現在其實地方政府因為透過勞資的協調其實大部分就是雙方就是合意解約了那合意解約可能僱主不會影響因為他就是想說他解約完他的那個名額還是保留他可以繼續聘沒有問題那移工本身因為他是懷孕那基本上我們因為性別平等公務法還是要保障所以如果必要我們就會有安置保護那等到確定他可以工作的時候就轉換僱主"},{"start":9763.233,"end":9789.082,"text":"這雙方的權益都把它確保不會影響當然我們今天會特別討論這個就是說女性的移工她在臺灣的權益我們當然是保護嘛那如果說對雇主也是造成一些困擾的話我覺得雇主的權益我們也是要把它兼顧啊所以我們當然就是說勞動部針對這一部分我們也希望其實很多人會覺得說為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多"},{"start":9790.542,"end":9806.644,"text":"四年移工這麼多那正式的有的要聘僱的話確實有一些困難比如說現在一些這個鄉下地區可能到了農忙的時候他如果要再去申請一個勞僱那個移工的話確實有時候會覺得還蠻麻煩的"},{"start":9808.526,"end":9821.414,"text":"說實在的那有的就覺得說有的可能知道說哪裡有這個10年移工他就自己去聘了所以我覺得這個問題確實是存在那我希望就勞動部要確實去正視這個問題因為"},{"start":9824.416,"end":9834.625,"text":"從疫情之後失聯移工已經到8萬多人這真的是太可怕了不過委員其實現在失聯移工是下降的我們過去疫情期間都有3%到4%現在只有2%有下降有下降"},{"start":9838.649,"end":9839.55,"text":"兼顧移工權益保障移工權益"},{"start":9854.41,"end":9869.143,"text":"讓他可以在原本的僱主那邊可以好好的工作而不是因為任何的問題然後就逃跑這個我覺得這個是我們勞動部需要去做的另外我要今天要另外一個議題就是公務單位的這個勞工"},{"start":9870.484,"end":9893.741,"text":"公務單位裡面的勞工的權益問題就是說我想知道就是說像部長你的司機也好他應該也是這個勞保勞基法都是用勞基法公有司機都是用勞基法那我想請教就是說在我們的這個公務單位裡面的勞工如果"},{"start":9895.261,"end":9921.371,"text":"這個單位他可能有一些關係那不需要這個勞工了那你們有這種資遣資遣就是說非自願離職有那種非自願離職對機關內的適用勞基法的這種勞工他的非自願離職的處理是嗎是你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎我知道好像全部都是要求他們要自願離職"},{"start":9929.174,"end":9933.162,"text":"人總夫人市長這邊是不是可以先有一些回答我再來補充"},{"start":9937.577,"end":9961.671,"text":"是,報告委員,因為移工公有,他還是適用勞基法,像這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走是,那現在機關裡面的勞工,機關裡面的勞工如果他非自願離職可是機關,目前好像是機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽"},{"start":9964.512,"end":9973.222,"text":"目前是不是這樣?一般機關裡面當然都希望勞工可以留下來比較不會有時候讓他廢置業離職有時候因為首長更換嘛跟著首長進來的"},{"start":9981.348,"end":10003.646,"text":"那個工友不會像那個跟隨所長進來啊?不會,他機要才會對,沒有,我講的就是說公務單位裡面的勞工就是說目前我們的狀況我們目前的狀況好像就我所知啦就只有自願離職,沒有那種非自願離職是不是有這種狀況?"},{"start":10006.699,"end":10024.004,"text":"這個目前我們是沒有去調查這些狀況你們沒有去調查這種狀況嗎那是不是可以請這個這個婦人市長或勞動部就機關裡面的勞工好的勞工勞動權益是不是就這部分可以做一些調查好我們去瞭解一下可以嗎"},{"start":10031.192,"end":10044.703,"text":"夫人市長你先回座我想請這個部長就剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到我們治理機關裡面的這個勞務承攬的這樣的一個工作這個薪資都比"},{"start":10046.663,"end":10074.17,"text":"這是也是低薪那當然就是說勞動部是要保障所有的勞工的權益不論是你一般的這種勞工或者是公務單位裡面的勞工我覺得這個都是我們這個勞動部要去保障的所以我也希望就是說我們今天提出來這些議題希望部長能夠正視那我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞動勞工的權益的這個部分我也希望你能夠做一個調查"},{"start":10074.73,"end":10095.004,"text":"可以嗎?好,我來跟人總商量好嗎?我來跟人總商量,看要怎麼處理因為委員,他那裡面吼,公務機關裡面有這種職籍關係他未必會適用勞基法裡面的那樣的勞資不是啊,那他就是勞工怎麼會說沒有適用,就是所有的勞工就適用勞基法嗎?"},{"start":10096.406,"end":10116.504,"text":"對,可是因為在公務機關裡面那個文化是不一樣的沒有這樣的啦我們跟人總來商量好不好,看誰來處理所有的勞工就是適用勞基法嘛那你當然公務單位不是委員,這我要取得行政院這邊的諒解或是人總的同意我才能去介入這樣的東西"},{"start":10119.726,"end":10136.812,"text":"你是勞動部部長也是保障所有勞工的權益的最高主管每一個機關裡面雖然他那個勞工是適用勞基法可是他的這樣子的包括他的薪資各方面是看他的機關的決定"},{"start":10139.346,"end":10164.162,"text":"因為那個是公務機關裡面的也有那樣的所以剛剛除非委員為什麼會講就是說我們自己本身勞動部你就是帶頭低薪啊對,我勞動部這邊我一定會去改善像我的那個勞發署我可以馬上改善那你是勞動部部長你應該也要去要求各機關你開出來的這個缺承攬業務的這個缺我們會建議行政院好不好我們會建議行政院好好謝謝"},{"start":10169.09,"end":10186.883,"text":"好 謝謝黃學光委員的發言謝謝部長我們下一位請郭國文委員發言主席 謝謝有請何部長好 有請何部長"},{"start":10191.761,"end":10206.007,"text":"是 你好部長好 部長那個大家在關心這個薪資的問題那本席也關心很多時間那很確實來說的話我們實質薪資的成長在這幾年如果有成長的話都相當微幅"},{"start":10206.411,"end":10235.609,"text":"然後甚至有馬拉斯的現象那因為過往這個都幾乎在組織處在做統計那我是不曉得我們勞動部裡頭有沒有特別因為每次呢只要談到薪資的問題彷彿啊彷彿我們就只有基本工資沒有其他的一個政策上的工具我是覺得這些蠻可惜那你如果說就國籍的比較來看的話這幾年來看的話你看那個受僱人員的這個GDP的占比"},{"start":10236.169,"end":10250.84,"text":"日本的部分是高達五成以上日本、美國、韓國都是五成台灣的部分只有四成四英國占比的部分占據的占比台灣的部分是34.4"},{"start":10253.982,"end":10266.71,"text":"然後呢日本才13.1那簡單的講從這個數字來看的話那個經濟學所說的那個下滲的效果在台灣來說其實是顯見而言是非常相對非常的少"},{"start":10267.83,"end":10294.86,"text":"那在這個部分其實最近我們的立法院預算中心也做過一些評估報告那本席也要求審計部做出一些專案的報告那我一度也是要求行政院是不是有一些比較具體的一個跨部會的平台的可能性但是我發現行政院的這個原來有一個跨部會的平台就是改善所得分配專案小組"},{"start":10296.48,"end":10317.633,"text":"但是後來就不了了之就回歸各部會,各部會就回歸到各部會的本位就不會有辭職的效果如果基本工資說沒有效果,還是有效果它有主體墊高的效果但主體墊高的時間收費對象就是固定的我們看到的整個大概是20%的勞工"},{"start":10319.912,"end":10334.028,"text":"那基本工資的這幾年的漲幅到11年為止大概三成二但是相關的比較直接有推動到的大概是中位數的部分中位數的部分大概只有一半"},{"start":10335.329,"end":10348.721,"text":"我個人來看的話就實質上中位數以下的勞工大概平均算起來大概有350萬位居於整個中小企業或壯年世代大專學歷這個版本的綜合體"},{"start":10350.979,"end":10372.61,"text":"這些人其實相對而言那個調薪的部分都是高薪者越調越多那低薪的部分有主體店高那中間中部位的部分很明顯就沒有這個部分其實早期我在來到那個衛環委員會的時候也跟之前的部長聊過但是呢老實說都不了了之沒有一個具體的想法"},{"start":10372.99,"end":10380.937,"text":"我是覺得非常可惜然後呢我是覺得副部長上來是不是有一些比較突破性的作為我們來探討看看"},{"start":10381.926,"end":10402.972,"text":"那像最近我就有請那個特別請那個審計部做一個報告出來審計部的報告當中有提到一個部分就是說那個勞動部每年大概花了大概上百億的資訊大概用了就業安定基金的錢花上百億但是就業安定基金的這個內容"},{"start":10405.213,"end":10429.092,"text":"聽說是越來越多元化蔡署長上來越來越多元化多元化到讓人家覺得還有噴刃其他有的沒有好像社區大學一樣也就是說簡單的講那就業的觀點性不高啦就業觀點性不高好這是第一個就業觀點性不高第二個呢還有一個產業新建兵計畫授訓完之後大概去"},{"start":10430.333,"end":10450.667,"text":"就業的勞工大概八成的員工與學員薪資未滿三萬低於整個產業平均薪資的三萬二就是說你透過這些當中你也沒有解決這個低薪的問題甚至還有包括42%留無從事部分工時"},{"start":10454.369,"end":10476.254,"text":"那這個薪資我看這是比固定的月薪的基本工資甚至還低啊所以說我們每年花這麼多那個部長我們這個每年的就業安定基金你知道大概我們的小金庫大概有多少錢?我們又不是小金庫那是小金庫啦講白點就是啦今年編290億的稅入跟稅290億嘛我看快破300了"},{"start":10480.655,"end":10501.521,"text":"以照這種移工或企業需要的那個extra等等開放的這個產業別越來越多情況底下遲早的但是這個遲早的部分是像是一個等於是體制外然後由企業來繳納的資金的金額啊老師說有一點老師這樣已經越來越"},{"start":10503.141,"end":10531.74,"text":"特定對象或特定人士或特定單位在申請而沒有達到實質的效果的那種現象出現就審計部這份報告裡頭就寫得很清楚那你要不要去思考看看要如何去善用這一筆就業安定基金就業安定基金如何善用就是說有沒有可能先說譬如講你鼓勵一些企業因為台灣大部分都中小企業"},{"start":10533.281,"end":10553.073,"text":"因為我們具體的調薪的幅度其實相對而言因為大概是三種一種就是最重要是企業的加薪那一種是員工的本身然後另外就是集體的溢價能力但是溢價能力其實集體溢價能力其實最近也沒有成長所以靠的是企業的加薪剩下這一步而已"},{"start":10554.318,"end":10570.712,"text":"所以我們有可能企業家然後勞動部跟著做一比一的方式的處理這樣比較直接了當委員我們來思考看看好不好對啊 比較直接了當嘛你每年的金額算非常的多現在已經高達"},{"start":10572.196,"end":10585.004,"text":"290億你與其花那麼多的行政流程行政成本花那麼多資訊資訊花了上百億上百億出來的效果還是老實講還是不好每年這樣花每年這樣花你一年有290億"},{"start":10588.673,"end":10604.368,"text":"10年就2900億了那可以解決很多低薪的一個問題啦你真的不用花那麼多時間就用現今的思考你就是有這筆錢可以充分運用嘛那事實上老實講那課程已經開到已經有一些"},{"start":10605.749,"end":10619.997,"text":"可是跟委員報告因為這裡面補助工會去辦訓是一個蠻大的項目那工會他們對這個需求都蠻大的我知道啦那個部分就是很像是在幫王後偉做工會關係一樣"},{"start":10622.019,"end":10629.083,"text":"還是有功能的 還是有功能的 那你至少去限縮沒有就業關聯性的一些項目我們來檢討好嗎 騰出一些時間 我說你就用了執訊的部分才百億你還有194億還將近200億的扣打嘛委員的建議很好啦 我也不是說全部叫你都投入這邊把其他人砍掉"},{"start":10646.495,"end":10660.904,"text":"這我知道這個委員會怎麼走得出去是 謝謝委員您的建議我們來思考這個真的要思考一下第二個是價別雖然我們在不同的法案當中有幫員工爭取價別不如講增加那個育嬰價家庭照顧價 對不對"},{"start":10663.166,"end":10682.028,"text":"交易國家運營價增加了之後其實多半是誰在申請這些良法美意大部分都公部門一般私部門不太敢去申請申請回來搞不好就沒辦法了到現在為止都是這樣子主席讓我多講一下因為剛剛有陳委員說我可以多講一會"},{"start":10683.602,"end":10705.767,"text":"就是說呢就是說呢這個情況底下他這看得到吃不到但是傳統的勞工的部分的價別從1984年勞基法實施以來我們的婚價、我們的商價、我們的這個產價、我們的流產價都沒差都沒差以前呢又跟軍公教比較起來又有一定的落差又一段落差部長部長"},{"start":10708.068,"end":10709.508,"text":"最近有一個公務人員請假規則已經預告要修正了已經要預告要修正所以說你是不是這個部分呢"},{"start":10724.651,"end":10747.407,"text":"對勞工釋出一些善意就是說傳統勞工的朋友只有這個部分可以請假你譬如講一個商家來說的話那個為什麼有的是那個公務人員的部分15天但我們是只有8天減半同樣是父母為什麼這沒道理嘛而且這是偶發性又不是經常性的這調整有什麼關係呢"},{"start":10750.247,"end":10776.041,"text":"而且未必遇得到因為高齡化社會未必遇得到所以這只是請假規則而已嘛我請部長你上來來思考一下來調整一下然後我上述了剛剛那兩個提議你一段時間給我一下好不好我們不用拖太久一個月應該可以啦好不好具體來改善薪資低薪的問題還有包括員工的休息的問題好不好謝謝"},{"start":10778.522,"end":10800.298,"text":"謝主席謝謝郭國文委員因為時間的關係所以不好意思請諮詢的委員能夠時間控制一下在羅志強委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案中午不休息繼續諮詢到結束為止如果中午的話工作人員可以把便當發下去請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":10809.85,"end":10830.912,"text":"主席有請部長請何部長好請問部長根據內政部移民署統計到今年7月我國的外籍移工有多少人我們今年已經到80萬人了80萬嗎對這是我們自己的統計這是什麼"},{"start":10832.083,"end":10847.654,"text":"這是我們自己的統計產業移工是55萬社福移工是24萬所以總計79萬3544人到7月了所以將近80萬那想請教部長目前為止私聯移工的人數是多少"},{"start":10849.106,"end":10874.725,"text":"那8萬8千多啦那私聯移工佔移工的總數是11%它相較於110年7月私聯總數的52,632人就增幅高達了66%那也是因為當時面對所謂的居高不下的這個私聯移工數所以內政部移民署在"},{"start":10876.386,"end":10891.281,"text":"2023年2月到6月辦理了《擴大預期停居留外來人口自行到案專案》這個專案有多少失聯移工到案?雖然是移民署,但是跟你們還是有點關係啦"},{"start":10894.451,"end":10923.149,"text":"容我再確認一下好嗎?再可以提供給委員一萬四千多位失聯移工到案可是我的疑問的問題是專案結束其實發現統計失聯移工總數是不減反增反而比專案前還多了兩千雖然有一萬四千名失聯移工到案但是比專案前還多了兩千個失聯移工有人說到案的人還要再加個兩千"},{"start":10924.366,"end":10953.389,"text":"怎麼會發生這種情形,您覺得呢?因為,委員您的意思就是說,這可能是因為我們再來引進的移工是增加的,持續在增加事實上,逃逸移工的比例不斷上升到目前為止,請問勞動部拿出什麼樣的方法來解決逃逸移工的問題然後,有什麼樣的一個做法有辦法去減少這樣的一個暴增的趨勢呢?"},{"start":10954.79,"end":10982.517,"text":"跟委員報告就是您講的那一個所謂大幅增加是相較於疫情前對那麼你如果從疫情後到現在其實是下降的就是112年您看失聯率大概3.1萬人發生率是4%已經較111年度4.1萬人發生率5.96%有明顯下降那麼我們今年一到八月大概是2%其實你在看移工的問題"},{"start":10984.097,"end":11002.842,"text":"當然你講說所謂的成長率是一個數字指標嘛對不對那如果成長率那個增幅有下降當然是一個好的正向指標但是實際上人數不斷的擴張這也是另外一個指標嘛所以我希望我們的勞動部還是要再多加的努力一下可以嗎"},{"start":11003.482,"end":11026.168,"text":"是當然我們會跟移民署一起來努力下一個部分我們知道移工對台灣經濟有很大的幫助所以可以有效解決我們台灣的缺工問題可是現在每10個移工有一位失聯他對治安、經濟跟社會的衝擊就會產生很多一些有連動的影響檢證署在去年就示警近年移工出現"},{"start":11027.468,"end":11041.318,"text":"幫派化的趨勢成為治安的隱患但是前任的許明春部長說移工的犯罪率只有國人的一半好像要大家放心我覺得請問部長你覺得這個你能放心嗎"},{"start":11042.82,"end":11064.899,"text":"對,是有移工的所謂的犯罪的問題我覺得警政署的提醒值得重視確實移工在某些他的確實有犯罪化、集團化的情況而且裡面也不乏可能有幫派確實是有的那這部分我們也是一直建議移民署應該要加強開查處而且絕不容許"},{"start":11065.319,"end":11081.567,"text":"所以基本上我覺得勞動部跟移民署甚至警政單位實際上都要有一個密切的一個網狀的聯絡我們最近的副署長還是從移民署敦請過來的我覺得至少這個部分的話可以來去用專業來去補強那最後實際上我要跟部長講為什麼延續這個犯罪的問題"},{"start":11090.712,"end":11115.658,"text":"其實最主要是移工的犯罪人數在10年間是增加了3.5倍2013年是1174件到2022年就變4160件那犯罪數不斷上升當然對治安會產生很多影響所以拜託我們的勞動部、移民署、警政單位這部分可能也要保障我們國人的安全是,謝謝委員提醒,謝謝"},{"start":11119.38,"end":11141.439,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員的發言現在處理臨時提案總共一案請宣讀臺灣少子化問題已被視為國安危機勞動部等相關單位更應採取積極行動打造友善的生育環境與支持生養的措施原要求勞動部緊速針對《性別平等工作法》及相關法規增訂較為彈性之輕職假議題進行研擬"},{"start":11144.722,"end":11171.165,"text":"並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、廖偉祥宣讀完畢請問行政單位有沒有意見報告委員沒有意見沒有意見好感謝OK嗎好那沒有意見我們就照案通過臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":11183.854,"end":11186.96,"text":"主席好有請勞動部部長請何部長委員好部長好我要請教你一下我們的19"},{"start":11197.58,"end":11200.963,"text":"其實1955就是我們對移工很重要的一個社會支持系統"},{"start":11218.479,"end":11232.294,"text":"我們透過幫他聆聽他的問題然後透過專人輔導那麼希望能夠移工他減緩在這裡社會適應上的各種狀況那我想這方面應該是有正面的啦是"},{"start":11233.651,"end":11253.626,"text":"對,大家都正面才要設這個專線沒有正面就不用設了但是實質的幫助就是有限不是只有數據我的意思不是只有數據說我們有多少人有在求救多少所以如果是這個專線有效又可以幫忙的話為什麼失聯移工"},{"start":11256.608,"end":11271.264,"text":"那麼多我們如何解決私人移工還有如何去幫助他們這個部分我們比較關心的因為每一個人來臺灣工作都希望穩定工作嘛不想要失聯"},{"start":11272.024,"end":11291.312,"text":"但是為什麼會造成失聯我們有輔導專線也有勞動部也有各個縣市勞工局都有協助為什麼他們還是溝通不良還是為什麼還要去沒辦法求救才會選擇離開自己的工作崗位"},{"start":11294.812,"end":11316.205,"text":"1955的功能當然跟失聯移工可能是兩個議題當然兩個議題因為他有1995來去保護、來去質詢、來去幫助所以他就跟僱主可以溝通就不會導致他離開所以說他離開了所以我們要怎麼樣說"},{"start":11318.106,"end":11320.287,"text":"請勞動部部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及勞動部部長．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益"},{"start":11342.034,"end":11347.358,"text":"請勞動部部長：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會內勞工之權益"},{"start":11355.482,"end":11372.736,"text":"然後他覺得這裡的工作不如他想的賺那麼多錢這好像是一個最主要的原因之一就想跟實際上他們的生活有沒有達到尤其你看在疫情期間失聯的比例特別高就是因為外面的需求大"},{"start":11373.737,"end":11390.558,"text":"移工又進不來,外面薪資誘因提高,導致失聯誘因增加。還有委員,再加上剛剛羅委員也有講到集團化、幫派化的問題,甚至是同鄉"},{"start":11391.88,"end":11400.785,"text":"的誘導也是一個很重要的失聯因素就是我們隨著移工人數的增加他的同儕同鄉在這裡其實上每一個人過來這一邊都希望合法對合法工作沒有人希望是非法"},{"start":11408.209,"end":11431.206,"text":"但是我們的薪資你也說嘛不符合他們的生活他們還要照顧他自己這裡的生活他還要負擔家裡的生活所以沒有辦法讓他們是可以負擔所以我們是這個才是重大的問題如果是我們在合法的工作我可以在這邊生活又可以幫助到我的家人改善我來臺灣"},{"start":11432.066,"end":11444.16,"text":"我就不會去逃跑嘛但是第二個我想要請教一下我們政府友善的就是要個留才的方案但是不友善對於移工就是要怎麼樣變成身為中階基層的條件"},{"start":11447.444,"end":11468.17,"text":"所以這個我們希望我們勞動部這邊我們要有這個法案對移工有幫助但是我們要限於就是老闆簽同意或者其他的條件他才可以留在臺灣這樣子的法案對移工來說看得到吃不到了啊這樣是不是就騙大家了對吧我想要留下來但是"},{"start":11472.071,"end":11479.973,"text":"我看到政府有這個法案我可以去做、去努力、去目標但是到最後是白人的決定不是我的決定這個的話我們希望說要有詳細的還有條件讓大家可以留下來的最後一個因為時間的關係因為我們現在的移工在臺灣因為我們要一個"},{"start":11496.076,"end":11497.937,"text":"並備質詢與建立移工問題：並備質詢與建立移工資金益"},{"start":11516.147,"end":11518.528,"text":"我們今天談的就是移工的"},{"start":11543.354,"end":11543.734,"text":"好,謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":11575.202,"end":11575.982,"text":"主席,謝謝,麻煩請何部長"},{"start":11593.37,"end":11615.795,"text":"您好部長好部長很多同仁都針對今天主題的部分但本席也想跟您就教一下是說針對我們本國的勞工的一個狀況那尤其今天我們看到行政院經濟發展委員會也會召開第二次會議鎖定薪資提升青年就業等相關的議題好那就回歸到是說我們在"},{"start":11617.133,"end":11639.154,"text":"之前去年底好不容易通過這個最低工資法那最低工資法我們也看到說今年有又在調漲希望明年能夠到28,590元對距離3萬元確實還是有一段的一個差距我想請教一下部長在你的心目當中你的期待什麼時候有可能會突破3萬元"},{"start":11641.125,"end":11653.9,"text":"委員我當然希望我們最低工資的條幅能夠每年都增加啦對可是也要衡量整個社會的那個就是的承受的這樣子的狀況我們會來審慎來來處理這樣子對"},{"start":11658.404,"end":11678.829,"text":"衡量社會承受的狀況是什麼當然委員其實最低工資的調整都會意味著你企業要付出更多的成本那這個是必須面臨的兩難的問題但另外一點最低工資其實只是對於勞工朋友最基本的保障其實很多的勞工朋友他也不是領最低工資啊"},{"start":11679.409,"end":11704.175,"text":"那所以之前我們講的是基本工資現在講最低工資但是另外一個部分為什麼會希望最低工資法立法就是審議過程能夠專業透明而且法制化那在今年新法上錄的第一次最低工資的審議我們有看到研究小組他是有建議最低工資最低跟最高的條幅等於是說他還是有個Range可以讓我們的"},{"start":11704.995,"end":11708.178,"text":"請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何有效提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":11720.294,"end":11739.75,"text":"我們沒有訂任局欸其實那個是研究小組的報告研究小組的報告就是當時有明確的建議希望有最低跟最高的一個條幅沒有沒有沒有建議條幅沒有研究小組的報告沒有這樣的我們看到第一版的研究小組報告"},{"start":11742.617,"end":11763.766,"text":"可能我也沒有看到最終版因為當然可能是中間有好幾版中間有好幾版但一開始所以說部長這就是本席今天做的準備就是說一開始告訴你說一開始的時候是有這樣子的一個條幅建議但到最終還是只剩下是說我們那如果說只剩下最終就是一個數字的話那我們跟之前的基本工資有什麼差別"},{"start":11764.286,"end":11791.513,"text":"那委員我們第一個研究小組沒有提供條幅的建議我們那個報告都是給最低工資審議委員審議委員收到的報告審議委員收到報告然後針對這個報告來去做一個討論嘛對對對但我們現在在講說如果說這樣子就是還是訂出一個那這樣子跟之前的基本工資有什麼差別這樣的審議程序這樣的審議過程是是是我們到最後還是一樣那跟之前的基本工資審議委員會"},{"start":11794.145,"end":11808.72,"text":"不過委員是這樣啦其實最低工資法它本來就是因也沿襲前面的基本工資審議委員會的運作的方式然後把它法制化啦憑良心講所以最低工資"},{"start":11809.761,"end":11833.657,"text":"司法離原來的基本公職審議委員的這個的審議程序不會差距很大可是裡面增加了研究小組這樣子的機制那麼這個機制提供給最低公職審議委員會一個比較科學化的評估數據部長您剛提到了嘛就是說研究小組他連提出建議的條幅都沒有辦法的話最終還是要喬一個數字那不就變成是過場"},{"start":11834.978,"end":11852.19,"text":"尊重專業那不就變成是這個是一個過場的一個機制部長我很實在話講你覺得到目前為止這樣子基本最低工資的這樣的一個審議幾次開會你對於這樣的一個政策效果滿意嗎"},{"start":11853.561,"end":11855.022,"text":"就是提出在這一次提出調整到28,590元是 我想是正面的一定是正面的因為這對我們邊際勞工的幫助是非常大我那時候最低工資審議的時候我就講了我們在最低所得的20%的家庭"},{"start":11872.62,"end":11898.132,"text":"他的那個收入一半都要用在這一個他的消費上面所以這個部分是對他們幫助是最大的那我當然坦白講最低工資對所有勞工的薪資提升他是有墊底部的效果可是他未必能夠真的未必能夠提升到可能60%、80%左右的勞工他如果說沒有拿最低工資的部分那一樣的道理我覺得還是拉回來就是說針對"},{"start":11899.232,"end":11920.423,"text":"我們現在的一個條幅是不是能夠有至少不要低於所謂的CPI的年增率或者是說我們每年的一些購買率而照不要讓它變成是說勞資雙方喊價、討價、還價的一個狀況而貧富差距還是持續擴大當然部長你有沒有注意到其實這兩年三年的物價調漲"},{"start":11922.165,"end":11941.734,"text":"通膨是非常嚴重的他甚至趕不上我們的所謂的加薪所以說其實我們現在看是說雖然基本工資有調漲但實質的薪資反而會被通膨影響到退路委員那個最低工資法裡面就明定CPI就是一定要參採的指標所以這個部分我們就是最主要的考慮"},{"start":11943.849,"end":11968.482,"text":"有喔!我們今年的條幅就高於CPI那是不是以後每年都能夠這樣子?正式的我們朝這個目標努力因為這就是我們所看到客觀的一個數據這也是可以避免說因為我們的條幅那反而因為通貨膨脹的狀況心知以為是向前原來根本就是後退因為你的一千塊變薄了你的錢變小了而造成勞工朋友我們應該要照顧他或是給他一個"},{"start":11969.342,"end":11997.632,"text":"最基本的墊底反而是落後的好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝好謝謝侯孟楷委員的發言接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在接下來請羅明才委員羅明才委員羅明才委員不在接下來請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在接下來請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":12007.736,"end":12009.48,"text":"謝主席有請部長請何部長部長你先看這個投影片的文字"},{"start":12019.324,"end":12034.996,"text":"第一個,透過免費的網站分享如何使用來追蹤華人買賣股票的交易動態。第二個,分享利用免費的軟體及APP來選擇基優並可以長期投資股票。第三,選擇適合穩健基金投資標的買入,創造長期穩健投資收入。"},{"start":12038.444,"end":12051.869,"text":"第四,迎向常委所正確心態。第一,穩定比篤一波重要。第二,風暴永遠是主要考量。第三,勝率不如火力來的重要。如果勞工看到這些文字,部長有什麼建議?"},{"start":12055.332,"end":12079.231,"text":"這看起來是投資的誘導這樣子請問那個指示就是說勞工去看到這些文字你會給勞工什麼樣的一個建議嗎應該要慎選啦要慎選嘛因為可能誘導嘛對不對就像部長講的嘛好我們現在先進入到今天的正題"},{"start":12080.734,"end":12107.116,"text":"在今年的5月23日,部長剛剛就任沒多久的時候,我有特別在這個地方質詢說,失聯的移工的問題非常嚴重。當時,失聯的移工應該總數8.6萬,快逼近8.7萬,是5月的時候。那9月22日的時候,移民署公布最新的一個資料,它是說台灣的失聯移工已經達到8.8萬,逼近9萬大關了。其實應該更多啦。這個要怎麼辦?"},{"start":12108.257,"end":12127.117,"text":"那5月質詢的時候我也明確指出齁因為這失聯移工指控列正部的營運署500位多名的專勤隊員在查緝坦白講這個要去把將近9萬的失聯移工找回來這是幾乎齊為的事情我們都很清楚這是一個現狀也是一個現實嘛齁"},{"start":12129.594,"end":12147.941,"text":"所以但是部長你再看這兩則新聞這塗蓋車門害祖孫喜摔車然後後又遭到車子掩蔽這個是10年移工兆頭災難另外一個這是預期居留移工酒駕肇事然後見警開溜最後遭到逮捕壓制"},{"start":12149.361,"end":12170.269,"text":"我們現在齁,總共台灣的移工總數已經79萬9千196人那這幾個月應該就突破80萬了,對不對那私人移工要突破9萬甚至以更高的,那大概就是事件的問題那我實在想說,我們還要再開放他國的移工進來所以全國的國員會對治安"},{"start":12172.29,"end":12194.333,"text":"自然這個項目非常的care重視所以我是在這邊是不是可以具體做這樣的建議因為畢竟勞動部還是就是引進這個移工的主管機關所以是不是可以連結我們的警政署、移民署、保護部讓所有的進到臺灣的移工最起碼法制的觀念要非常非常正確"},{"start":12195.603,"end":12216.236,"text":"是當然可以吧所以我希望部長可以來統籌然後成立一個誇的平台因為他進來他有必要的相關的一些資訊要給他那最起碼法治這一項一定是重中之重好不好好我們來加強對新入國移工的法治教育啦好謝謝部長那另外"},{"start":12217.216,"end":12233.738,"text":"又是一個移工的大新聞請部長看一下就是電力維修缺工然後我們要解禁找移工那這個新聞又引發這個政府要再擴大移工的這樣的疑慮但是我們勞動部有馬上解釋就是電網建設等配電的這個相關的這些"},{"start":12235.66,"end":12248.206,"text":"工程原本就可以依規定來申請移工,從事基層體力工作但若要從事相關技術工作必須取得配電輸電線路或電纜裝修證照所以我們建議,勞動部建議臺電應優先培訓國人或沿纜併培訓在臺橋外生取得相關的證照以投入配電外線中階技術工作,沒有錯嗎?對"},{"start":12262.492,"end":12269.866,"text":"好,我們鼓勵台電建立啦是,要優先這樣處理但是主要是因為這樣啦"},{"start":12272.372,"end":12294.084,"text":"如果照這樣勞動部的意思就是說這個台電的承包商本來就可以申請基本勞力工作項目的移工但是如果要爬電線桿接觸配電這就是不行嘛因為他必須要有證照對不對所以就是台電你要趕快去培訓嘛因為台電的這個配電外線的作業技術能力老化"},{"start":12295.404,"end":12322.37,"text":"是這樣嗎?是,我們還有預備就是給他開放輔導這樣子進來的基層體力工已經過一定程度一定程度年限以後他有語言的溝通能力他已經是資深移工他要成為中階了我們的移工六台九院本來就有那個所謂的資深移工變中階的這樣的一個機制嘛這樣的人我們建議台電可以優先輔導他考照啦"},{"start":12322.97,"end":12330.759,"text":"然後來從事台電這方面的工作我們是預備要給他有這樣子的可以開放這個部分這樣子"},{"start":12331.752,"end":12354.762,"text":"好,因為民進黨執政之後一直在推這個韌性的電網,對不對?台電現在坦白講,如果以那個什麼那個 Google 的那個點閱率還是什麼流量台電都算是蠻高的吧,包含電費嘛,包含這個整個債務的問題種種嘛所以講到台電大家都會特別的去關注這件事情,但現在台電的人力老化嘛"},{"start":12355.562,"end":12376.455,"text":"所以要讓台灣有這個任性健康的這樣的一個電網基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛所以應該行政院要把它當成是一個非常重要的一個這樣的一個政策然後去怎麼去普及到這樣的一個能力嘛所以我覺得勞動部如果說就叫台電自己去建立台電自己去培訓這樣的人力這個"},{"start":12378.564,"end":12404.936,"text":"沒關係,我們等下再來討論啦齁不過市委員,這個臺電其實過去他們其實都有培訓的這樣的機制捏但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的這樣的一個培訓的課程嗎?不不,那臺電自己就有培訓的能力了他自己有培訓的能力?他甚至有訓練所他們早年就都是培訓自己本國的技職生建教合作只是現在技職生本國人越不願意進入這個領域"},{"start":12406.697,"end":12432.583,"text":"不然你這麼講因為我是從移工講到這個地方那如果是這麼說那等於是勞動部就是這是你台電資料去處理我勞動部就是不處理也不是所以我在幫忙我在幫忙是說你喬外生以及資深移工啦中階啦就是我們所謂的可以成為中階技術人力的這樣的人因為這樣的人他有一個問題就是說他需要考證照而且"},{"start":12433.883,"end":12450.648,"text":"他要有懂語文能夠跟台電員工溝通要不然就怕出人命啦對所以這個其實是一個需要慎重的問題那麼我們現在是建議他先循中階人力的這個方式來禁用這樣子"},{"start":12451.608,"end":12462.382,"text":"好沒關係我現在就要連結到我們勞動部有相關的一些職人的培訓課程嘛我是很訝異說為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來我覺得有點納悶不然可以看這個臺灣就業通這是我們在處理的嘛"},{"start":12468.89,"end":12486.489,"text":"其實委員我們也有跟台電建議是說你其實可以我甚至可以幫你來開班來帶訓你這句話要講啦你這句話不講我就會覺得怪怪的啦到現在開幾班了沒有沒有我們也有跟台電提這樣子的建議"},{"start":12487.33,"end":12515.472,"text":"對啦,台電沒有接受,台電到現在沒有跟人接見也不是說沒有接受啦,他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦,可是這個我們一定要那如果是台電的問題,那我就來找台電,來好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通出來沒關係,我現在部長因為我時間到了啦,因為我後面還有一些事情要講你看啦齁,臺灣經貿通識我們跟勞動部的支持應該是無庸置疑的嘛因為下面就有勞動力發展署嘛對不對,好"},{"start":12516.733,"end":12540.911,"text":"所以這個是我們在強化的一個在職訓練的一個網絡嘛應該這麼講部長你覺得這裡面有寫嘛自助旅行國外班這個是課程還是這個課程是執訓還是在培養興趣自助旅行國外班然後一個人學費7,900我們政府負擔要6,320塊"},{"start":12545.034,"end":12570.675,"text":"那我處理又去看了很多培訓看似執訓其實就比較像在培養興趣班我不能講說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能或許會嘛然後我們又開了很多好像這個創意手作工藝品這好像有點在社區、龍寨相關的這樣的政府的部門在支持也蠻多的然後他要把它變成一個職訓好像職能"},{"start":12571.893,"end":12586.897,"text":"要間接到一個職能好像又有一個蠻大的一個區塊所以我剛剛才會用台電的引力來講另外一個像餐廳業大缺工對不對這個我們都很清楚我們在餐廳業的相關的這個職能的訓練也幾乎其為"},{"start":12590.953,"end":12614.5,"text":"比例也不高啦比例不高那我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講因為昨天的諮詢我也已經特別提到怎麼會政府編的預算然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情相對的我們現在一直補助我們在補助什麼補助我跟部長講一下齁有幾個課程也是在這個臺灣居委通裡面顯示出來的部長可以看一下個人財務規劃金融產品分析與實務班"},{"start":12616.835,"end":12629.101,"text":"學會5040我們政府要負擔4032金融正確交易事務班學會8910我們政府要負擔7128股市投資理財策略事務班學會8880政府要負擔7104所以如果照這麼講勞工不是不能投資股票"},{"start":12645.404,"end":12672.495,"text":"同時股票已經是全民運動讓勞工有正確的訊息我也覺得有極必要但是把這個相反在職能的訓練部長覺得合理嗎所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話可能不想再亂一下嘛我就問部長說勞工看到這些勞工要小心嘛這是不是誘導的情況這些老師基本上"},{"start":12674.005,"end":12691.537,"text":"我們職法署有有有有有TEST過嗎?有了解過嗎?他們在這樣的一個勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面來教勞工做這些事情這些老師萬一教得好就好教得不好是要找你勞動部勞法署負責嗎?還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證這個是屬於這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎?"},{"start":12704.482,"end":12718.355,"text":"委員我們來檢討好嗎就是因為這裡很多時候是比如像工會他們主動提這樣的案那適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個一個一個一個"},{"start":12719.401,"end":12743.104,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到說勞工要去投資股票基本上健康的我們無庸置疑嘛對不對他們不然辛苦的基本公司還是多了一些相關的一些這些的其他的包容你女總統的薪資加起來可能都幾萬塊而已他可以去投資股票證券的管道我覺得無庸置疑但是你把他放在職能這一塊"},{"start":12745.046,"end":12765.607,"text":"有問題嗎?我們來檢討台灣就業通用的經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金就保跟就安嘛對不對這個我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的一個訓練我是覺得真的是"},{"start":12766.625,"end":12795.187,"text":"我們也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候對,那個課程的形式我們也是要跟他們要有一些我要再提醒一下部長,連勞化署都有自己相關的課程了署長應該很清楚吧所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工勞動部是也要培訓國外明燈還是要幫你們這個相關的基金、勞保相關基金來操盤不然為什麼臺灣基金通也有,你們勞化署也有"},{"start":12798.599,"end":12822.726,"text":"還是我們要一個正式提案,相關部會都必須要這樣因為這個股票就已經是全民運動了,投資股票全民運動了不然你勞工署、署本部也有啊,你臺灣就業通也有啊而且我們補助的,每班補助的額度,你看都八成一班七千多塊、八千多塊,我們都政府都要負擔七千多啊所以我才問說你臺灣就業通你到底是要"},{"start":12824.025,"end":12847.358,"text":"我們請勞保署來整個檢討好嗎?還是這個執訓勞工要大殺孤海?好,我現在要請勞保署長我們來檢討啦,就是整個包括甚至是署理嗎?不是啊,署長你應該要答幾句好不好?你讓部長一直回答我,我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧?"},{"start":12848.653,"end":12875.377,"text":"我昨天才在問你們114年的總預算新部長單位有沒有新的相關的新興的一個項目來支持這個勞工沒有甚至於現在是預算還沒審有可能還會比1130更少的預算那你把這些錢從救安跟救保來處理這樣的項目把它當成一個勞工的職能你們說得過去嗎我相信部長不曉得這個事情啦阿現在連你出本部也都有勒"},{"start":12877.042,"end":12904.754,"text":"你要等到在野的委員來出來這個多久了報告委員那個剛剛委員提到的我們整個來檢視一下確實我們有一些課程其實如果跟他未來的職能的發展沒有相關性應該是不應該去做這樣的核定這個我們來檢討公衛期待要有這樣的班我基本上我也會支持那你們看用什麼樣的項目是不是新興的項目去處理你把它放在職能"},{"start":12906.564,"end":12907.846,"text":"沒有道理吧!部長要小心吧!我覺得應該很多事情都要再盤整一下吧!"},{"start":12923.834,"end":12943.42,"text":"好,謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在接下來請林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在接下來請葉元芝、葉元芝、葉元芝委員不在接下來請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":12955.019,"end":12981.209,"text":"謝謝主席。請一下何部長。請何部長。委員好。好。我們叫我給他後製就是要比較快就對了。部長。部長那個。今年啊。今年。就是。"},{"start":12983.967,"end":13005.709,"text":"勞發署曾經有表示過要訂一下移工的懷孕指引這個確實是一件很重要的事情因為他指引訂出來以後可以彙整懷孕前後的相關權益我不知道現在好像還沒提出"},{"start":13006.779,"end":13030.605,"text":"對,他還在草擬中,準備年底那麼現在是草案,現在有草案了準備年底啊就是這兩個月裡面要訂出來啦現在正在跟社會諮詢溝通中那因為就是在這一個所謂的生育給付這一項上面其他社會面向的團體有不同意見啦"},{"start":13032.006,"end":13037.311,"text":"對,有人反對啦。對,所以這個我們還在構思。部長,我剛剛就聽到你們在回復劉建國委員,就是銷股票投資也是公會,然後呢,你做一個指引,"},{"start":13054.505,"end":13083.303,"text":"也不先提出然後也是要先跟社會對話從許民春部長到現在就這6年我覺得勞動部之所以很多政策沒有辦法到位沒有辦法定案就是因為你們扛著社會共識的大旗"},{"start":13084.417,"end":13088.619,"text":"延誤了很多應該要立即落實的政策勞保年改也是像這個指引問說為什麼還沒有也說是要跟社會大眾溝通那問你說為什麼交勞工投資股票也說是公會"},{"start":13113.476,"end":13138.154,"text":"你就直接給工會來我不是說尊重工會的意見不對我不是這樣子不要誤解就是說你行政機關必須要自己有自己的你自己不先拿出來你的政策版本怎麼溝通懂我意思嗎"},{"start":13140.39,"end":13146.221,"text":"哪一個委員有在溝通啊這個移工懷孕指引就是在溝通中然後遇到問題這樣子"},{"start":13147.998,"end":13175.365,"text":"遇到什麼問題?跟委員報告齁其實這個指引我們在上個會期因為當初委員也關切我們在5月就已經提出一個版本草案那因為這個版本草案因為涉及到很多不同的利害關係團體所以我們正式召開過會議那包含僱主團體、移工團體跟一些社會福利團體等等那還有跨部會包含衛務部等等"},{"start":13176.025,"end":13190.185,"text":"那因為在那個會議當中因為對我們這個草案的內容因為事實上我們很希望把移工的各個階段的需求盡量能夠完整的呈現所以很多的意見大概有表達出來所以五月開完會之後我們大概兩個月內"},{"start":13192.248,"end":13211.707,"text":"在陸續的把各界的意見再做一些盤點7月的時候其實我們有做了第一次的修正那這個修正因為我們再跟各界再請幫忙再做一些檢視那這些草案的內容現在已經在收斂就是說大部分的內容都已經有共識那剩下的就是跟委員報比較就是說爭議性比較大的"},{"start":13212.347,"end":13227.944,"text":"事實上就是現在就是家事移工他在這個生育的這個給付的一個補助方面大概會比較有不同意見那目前我們大概就是說也把這樣的意見盡量的再做一些統整我們大概目前有個初步的想法"},{"start":13228.524,"end":13257.563,"text":"就是說對於比較特殊的情況之下因為在生產之後比如說有一些很特殊的情況可能又要有一些新生兒或是說他的身體的狀況需要特別照顧那這個時候我們大概希望能夠有一個社會支持的一些資源能夠挹注來補助那經過地方政府評估之後我們就給予這樣一個我們當然是一定要健全看護移工懷孕期間孕前孕後的休假"},{"start":13258.644,"end":13261.348,"text":"那這個指引裡面呢就是"},{"start":13263.803,"end":13288.881,"text":"被照顧者在看護移工休假的時候怎麼獲得照顧?這個也是一個問題因為這裡面就是兼顧移工的權益但是還有僱主的權益所以我們這裡面也包含就是說這段期因為空裝級因為沒有照顧的時候我們就是包含現在的喘息跟短照服務喘息呢每年大概只有可以使用"},{"start":13289.681,"end":13314.164,"text":"我們現在喘息加短照一年52天52次那移工請假的時間是8個星期幾乎就是一整年都會在這個運期裡面被照顧者的喘息機會全部用完所以這個你們假如說真的要"},{"start":13315.765,"end":13343.151,"text":"要做一個比較完整的質疑有沒有可能跟衛福部討論這一類的事情提高喘息的上限這個我們會來跟衛福部再討論一下我們也希望就是說盡量能夠滿足那大概衛福部這個部分我們再來跟他溝通因為這個才需要討論嘛至於外界的東西"},{"start":13345.491,"end":13360.536,"text":"我不大相信說不管從老闆年輕改革到任何指引有辦法獲得社會一致的"},{"start":13361.877,"end":13377.749,"text":"等於說沒有一個政策是凝聚完共識才推出的那就永遠推不出政策懂我的意思嗎我覺得勞動部就是這幾年比較會在這個委員會把跟社會的"},{"start":13390.831,"end":13415.413,"text":"的溝通當作政策延宕的理由這個我其實是不當接受或者是應該這麼講就是說最少你們要先有政策出來才有溝通的基礎嘛你什麼都沒有"},{"start":13416.857,"end":13435.552,"text":"光是一直說溝通,怎麼溝通?補充妳想要說的,妳說來。如果是勞保年改,我的政策很明確。我已經很明確了。就是撥補。勞保年改,妳很明確是什麼意思?我的政策就很明確了。就是撥補?對啊。"},{"start":13437.782,"end":13460.82,"text":"我的政策就是我們撥補就是改革我已經講過很多遍了而且我不砍年金這就是我的政策我今天原本倒是沒有我今天在講的是整個勞動部這幾年的情況那你倒是自己想要講年金因為時間的關係"},{"start":13467.418,"end":13490.326,"text":"我就先跟部長講我個人覺得單純的把勞保年金改革這麼大的一個重大議題以單一的政府撥補試圖延後處理的時機點"},{"start":13497.43,"end":13524.565,"text":"這個我是沒有辦法接受的你瞭解所以這是不同意見嘛這個我是沒有辦法接受的因為我我不知道為什麼部長可以這麼冠冕堂皇的直接講說你就是撥補也就是說未來你的任期假如是4年"},{"start":13525.97,"end":13543.623,"text":"那就是中央政府總預算每一年必須要有兩千億、三千億來挹注勞保年金然後其他的什麼都不用做討論部長保證了絕對不會砍年金沒有人要你砍年金啊沒有人要你砍年金啊我甚至於在昨天就講過了"},{"start":13554.113,"end":13570.647,"text":"我們搞不好必須要連通膨都算進去看現在領兩萬塊以下的已經在貧窮線的勞工的晚年怎麼保障啊沒有人要你看啊可是單純的一句撥補就解決了勞工問題"},{"start":13579.383,"end":13584.765,"text":"那民進黨才有這間可以撥補那尊軍公教就直接撥補就好啦那就不敢...委員軍公教過去20年已經公保補5400億了軍公教的...軍公教的雇主是國家軍公教的雇主是國家"},{"start":13606.638,"end":13634.34,"text":"我一直都在不要還沒有含那個退伏喔軍公教退伏喔不是啦現在就是說勞工部長你如果是你如果是這樣的態度就表示你不是很想要跟委員會的委員好好的討論跟相處啦我說我說我們假如說撥補可以解決一切那軍公教"},{"start":13635.962,"end":13655.446,"text":"當初就不用改當然部長不從部長就覺得說軍公教跟勞工是有區別的當然有區別最大的區別就是軍公教的僱主是國家那應該改的時候不是應該改嗎不是縱使第二政權"},{"start":13664.537,"end":13672.086,"text":"也要推動年金改革嗎那為什麼改了軍公教以後勞保就一直停著然後部長講的就是好像撥補是很應該撥補是最不得已的做法部長"},{"start":13699.762,"end":13712.192,"text":"我只是要說明我上任以後我對很多政策我都是直接面對的我也不會去拿所謂的社會共識來拖延不是!你直接面對"},{"start":13713.803,"end":13723.647,"text":"然後撥補,撥補就是從許民春開始就一直撥補了啊就是一個不負責任的執政黨在做的事情啊把問題想要留到等到民進黨不執政了再來做處理啊啊不然要怎麼說?不是這樣嗎?委員您這樣講真的也是...也是很有道理啊"},{"start":13743.547,"end":13759.342,"text":"不是嗎?對於等到,等到,欸,萬人之間,啊,啊,燙,燙手衫你再丟出去啊。對,我要明白的告訴你,就是說,這些都是評估過的啦。你除非砍年金,不然我們沒有其他的處理方法。"},{"start":13760.302,"end":13786.757,"text":"喔,就是這樣除了砍年金跟撥補就是這兩種方法另外一種叫延退那延退我們還得看社會有沒有辦法這麼進行對,所以這個就是說我們的工具很有限啦這個委員,這個其實...不然你如果是態度這樣啦你的態度是這樣子就難怪勞動部呢就是在行政體系裡面"},{"start":13788.398,"end":13792.281,"text":"幾乎是不存在的存在者因為你們前後任的部長的態度大概都是一樣的不想去面對問題"},{"start":13809.943,"end":13820.451,"text":"我知道你的想法啦你就是覺得唯一的改革方法就是減少年金所以誰主張要改革誰就是罪人啊你現在講的意思是這樣子啦不是委員這個因為就是廣大勞工朋友的社會安全線的問題不是所以才需要你勞動部啊阿沒有勒"},{"start":13837.519,"end":13861.605,"text":"阿不然勞動部存在幹嘛我的意思是說我們砍了年金下去我們還要去動用社會救助那這個我早就講過了您也不能接受嘛對不對現在是是在說你最少要有方案出來你不能就是覺得波普我說真的啦我看了波普這麼多年我就覺得"},{"start":13863.444,"end":13869.73,"text":"民進黨就是在等等到自己沒有執政了再換別人來處理啦我們沒有這麼消極啦如果這麼消極就不撥補了啦對不對"},{"start":13879.639,"end":13890.469,"text":"所以部長的意思是 多補是一件很積極的作業是啊 而且越補 我們的金額在增加耶6年以來 從200、221一直增加到1300億這就是我們執政積極的表現啊這是為了...喔 是啊 是啊你要不要把這句話提到讓..."},{"start":13901.926,"end":13926.985,"text":"看能不能形成社會共識委員我想這個應該社會的大眾是會認為這是一個負責任的執政黨他才願意這麼做啊負責任的執政黨我也說過我已經提案委員我已經提案要求政府要負最終的支付責任這個是政府的決心可是要不要改革是另外"},{"start":13929.967,"end":13935.539,"text":"是兩個層面的問題我也支持我也支持以前馬政府甚至都沒有撥補"},{"start":13937.317,"end":13964.222,"text":"所以他們失去政權啊對所以我們負責任而且我們單起來不過 普通人如果是這樣的話我們就下一次再談啦因為 因為 因為朝委已經已經站起來很多次了我也不是很想我要一視同仁要不然到時候有的人說啊你那個楊耀武有講那麼久我都沒有站起來沒關係 反正"},{"start":13969.123,"end":13991.609,"text":"時間還機會很多不過最後一句話我並不覺得波普是有擔當的執政黨應該要拿出來對社會大眾做宣傳的一個政績好啦謝謝委員謝謝楊耀委員的發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":14002.694,"end":14016.087,"text":"主席我不會吃醋啦,如果你只給姓名兩個字的委員,比較長時間我都可以接受主席,在場的委員先進,列車政務司案所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊人士先生有請我們何部長請何部長來,部長好,誒,卡住了等一下,還沒切換時間請停一下,因為卡住了為什麼不會跳過去呢?"},{"start":14030.71,"end":14055.036,"text":"參考器部長參考器是是委員好誒?對不起啊這個我們的我們的簡報跟我們本委員會有點衝衝到抱歉啊陳委員"},{"start":14072.838,"end":14082.806,"text":"要不要休息個兩、三分鐘,讓他處理一下?小心、小心部長,你要不要先?"},{"start":14143.046,"end":14147.571,"text":"報告主席,謝謝。我們請勞動部部長。我們剛剛沒有套招,我們在談別的事情"},{"start":14160.944,"end":14180.482,"text":"上週這個時候我在問邱太元部長是問偵測護理左傑醫院人事荒今天我要關心的是放寬橋外護理生留台工作來我們看到一下第一張你們現在推出了中階技術人才計畫對不對你們希望資深移工能夠呢達六年有很高的技術或者說年輕移工他取得在職進修"},{"start":14182.483,"end":14204.253,"text":"這些都可以繼續留下來從事專門技術尤其是取得護學士通過小學生評點的可以在台灣做專門性的技術工作對不對所以這個最後一項前面兩項是移工身份進來經過技術認定或進修讓他可以繼續做中介的技術但是後者是學生進來是不是所以他後來就可以在台工作是這樣嗎沒錯齁"},{"start":14206.564,"end":14229.611,"text":"好,部長,沒關係,你可以用MH工說一下,對,這樣我就好,因為我至少不會問你願意嗎?好,那往下一頁,所以我們看到因為這樣的關係,所以你看,勞動部長甚至說橋外生可以從事中階的房屋,這是指觀光旅宿業,你也同意客運司機跟醫院的互佐也在討論中嘛,所以我們就看到花蓮慈基醫院就引進了第二批的"},{"start":14230.371,"end":14254.452,"text":"非國戶左就是僑外生所以他們現在開始招收僑外生這個政策是部長支持嗎?是,而且已經通過了通過了,對我知道所以我想請教一下那目前這些進來的沒有到醫院現在只能到機構跟家庭沒錯嗎?好,我們往下看可是在看護的部分我們想想看在家庭或機構的長輩如果他生病了是不是要到醫院去?"},{"start":14255.768,"end":14273.715,"text":"是是不是沒錯吧那這些我們在醫院看到的有很多外籍看護是跟著長輩到醫院去幫助那個醫院的護理人員從事這個長者的照顧嗎好所以說我們看一下護佐既然可以到機構去協助這些工作他還有"},{"start":14274.815,"end":14291.002,"text":"從事這個服藥的非核心業務這個能力那你覺得他可不可以進入到一般醫療機構你們現在沒有放寬到醫院喔你們現在是只有到機構跟家庭那你覺得這些人可不可以到醫院去喬外森未來沒有問題未來沒有問題對著麥克風講好不好來我們請署長"},{"start":14293.534,"end":14318.912,"text":"跟委員報告現在衛福部要準備要開放的護理醫護所的中階它是未來是所有的醫療機構都可以包括醫院對都已經沒有說只限於上面的但是目前勞動部只有到機構那是移工那是機構移工那喬外森呢喬外森目前是沒有限制在這個所以喬外森也可以到醫院去對未來是可以現在進來現在可不可以"},{"start":14319.472,"end":14339.192,"text":"跟委員報告,因為剛剛翠北提到那個慈濟他其實不是僑外生,他其實是移工進來,機構移工是屬於第二類的,年輕移工去進修後那所以是以學生身份進來的,未來他們習得福利專業之後可不可以到醫院去?都可以部長是這樣嗎?很好,所以這下我要坐著"},{"start":14340.013,"end":14356.18,"text":"今天我大概幾乎就問的您都接受來往下一頁所以其實我們來看一下機構的雇主跟家庭看護基本上其實以目前外籍移工進入我們的家庭他的華語能力不見得比一個在台灣受過3到5年教育的學生的僑外生來得好嘛部長同意嗎"},{"start":14357.581,"end":14377.239,"text":"對,如果是學生來臺灣的僑外生他的語言能力一定比引進的外籍看護好嘛第二個他的專業技術能力也一定比這些外籍義工好嘛所以讓這些僑外生積極的不要說取代啦積極的來參與到我們機構家庭甚至未來醫院擔任輔佐的工作你會全力支持嗎"},{"start":14378.82,"end":14396.195,"text":"但是我們也希望說這個工作因為我要跟部長說明一下這幾年來我8年都常常在東南亞跑新南向的工作我持續在做我發現很多越南甚至包括泰國部分的印尼"},{"start":14396.935,"end":14413.593,"text":"他們過去只是輸出移工、看護到我們台灣來做這個非技術的工作但是他們現在發現台灣的技術教育非常的好而這些國家本身的醫護的教育培養的質跟量都還不夠"},{"start":14414.253,"end":14435.106,"text":"所以現在台灣很多的護專還有護專五年制護專的學校包括屏東的慈惠他們都很希望引進這些橋外生這些橋外生進來之後五年了語言也好了技術也有了那他們因為不是本國人不能取得醫護師的護理師的證照但他可以到醫院去從事護佐這樣的方向部長你支持嗎"},{"start":14435.706,"end":14460.343,"text":"我們支持支持而且目前就朝這個方向好那您現在大力的支持讓去教育部跟衛福部來處理現在又有什麼問題呢他們的招生遇到了他們在招收橋外生這樣的一個來台灣接受護理培養教育的人的時候呢教育部啊對他的額數是有做管制的您覺得他們的額數管制是擔心他們衝擊到本國勞工的就業機會嗎會嗎"},{"start":14463.057,"end":14480.746,"text":"其實是不會這句話就很好了就要您這句話我要跟教育部說因為一些教育部呢他就常常說啊我們之所以限制名額這考量到勞動部長期以來對本勞的工作機會的保障但是這些人有沒有損及到我們本國醫護人員的工作權有沒有"},{"start":14481.67,"end":14497.258,"text":"如果他們從事一戶左的話因為我們跟衛福部都有關於這方面的所以確定沒有人力的控的那一個因為那個都是有名額的嘛那我們大概也都有了解所以我現在就是關心名額因為教育部在招生名額有管制嘛所以我要問你"},{"start":14498.118,"end":14521.137,"text":"就你認為引進這樣的人力可以解決醫院的人力荒提供我們國人在醫院裡面接受會護理專業以外核心技能的照顧人員的照顧有幫助嗎?也不會損及到本國醫護人員、專業人員有正道人員的工作權,不會嗎?好,那接下來我希望你用同樣的態度來協助我們解決長途或者是區域客運車駕駛員的這個問題,可以嗎?"},{"start":14524.44,"end":14539.746,"text":"可以 我們也開放了也開放了對 我們都提到國發會就是醫院互佐、客運司機、貨運駕駛我們開放了這三類那這三類當中提到國發會也通過了那這三類當中如果他是以"},{"start":14540.146,"end":14553.952,"text":"橋外生身份進來的學生經過學校休業後也可以做這些工作?對,可以。都可以做這些工作?對,可以。很好,我們趕快這個好消息盡量的宣布出去。我有跟交通部長建議,就是說其實這些學校他們在比如說貨運,就是這種運輸物流類的,應該是多可以開班。"},{"start":14560.775,"end":14583.45,"text":"不要只是侷限在STEM的就是那個理工類的這樣子的開班的狀態所以您說交通部長他同意了嗎?支持嗎?沒有,我也跟他建議了你跟他建議,所以我下次找交通部長來支持這樣的想法應該是要跟教育部一起談是,因為現在這些部會他們都擔心說因為如果沒有勞動部首肯他們擔心開放這些橋外生進來我們的職業、職場領域會損及到本國勞工的勞動權益委員這個我們完全配合謝謝"},{"start":14591.657,"end":14608.495,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言接下來請陳瑩委員發言好,謝謝主席,麻煩請勞動部長請何部長"},{"start":14614.299,"end":14640.164,"text":"委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下"},{"start":14641.765,"end":14656.538,"text":"勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予"},{"start":14657.879,"end":14672.884,"text":"這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義就剛剛講的加上這個薪金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的"},{"start":14679.227,"end":14681.728,"text":"以本辦公室而言,對於我們自己的辦公室的助理們"},{"start":14698.854,"end":14726.871,"text":"那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁"},{"start":14729.746,"end":14756.103,"text":"這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了"},{"start":14756.883,"end":14783.958,"text":"那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢"},{"start":14786.18,"end":14798.493,"text":"本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯"},{"start":14800.055,"end":14827.597,"text":"好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、烤雞獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦"},{"start":14829.414,"end":14851.305,"text":"再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本心去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎"},{"start":14852.774,"end":14871.252,"text":"按照你們的邏輯就不可以啊對啊當然是就不可以啊但是但是你們不認同這樣子但你們的邏輯卻是這個樣子的嘛那所以這個報導這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛剛提到的案例所做的解釋我要念一下就是說這個案例就是說"},{"start":14871.812,"end":14890.797,"text":"有一個勞工他在一家公司裡工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元那最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資,那這個"},{"start":14894.858,"end":14897.52,"text":"公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元"},{"start":14910.788,"end":14926.447,"text":"本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼"},{"start":14927.688,"end":14950.911,"text":"那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本薪跟津貼好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都要大家其實很多人關心因為"},{"start":14951.792,"end":14978.613,"text":"我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為"},{"start":14979.947,"end":15002.251,"text":"那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是"},{"start":15010.036,"end":15026.087,"text":"很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為"},{"start":15034.349,"end":15057.509,"text":"依據本期的了解,他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力、真正高薪的原因那良情則莫而居,那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間"},{"start":15059.25,"end":15066.459,"text":"不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也"},{"start":15068.973,"end":15096.229,"text":"其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為"},{"start":15097.19,"end":15119.575,"text":"或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資他不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新"},{"start":15120.396,"end":15128.606,"text":"離清大家回去做點功課用心去思考讓我們的法治更健全做好保護全體勞工的權益好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15134.292,"end":15159.661,"text":"謝謝陳英委員的發言本日會議詢答全部結束委員蘇清泉、邱振軍、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":15171.254,"end":15176.664,"text":"並備質詢。"},{"start":15180.71,"end":15181.651,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":15211.453,"end":15211.473,"text":"議員會議結束"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}