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MANGA"},{"start":1766.089,"end":1783.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1830.303,"end":1831.203,"text":"現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1843.547,"end":1864.378,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議．事由．時間113年10月16日星期三9時至15時3分．地點紅樓議員會議室．出席委員林大化委員等14人．列席委員萬美玲委員等36人．列席人員經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員．主席呂昭吉委員喻林"},{"start":1865.018,"end":1883.149,"text":"報告事項一,宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二,邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃進行報告．並備質詢。經濟部長郭志輝及台灣電力股份有限公司董事長曾文森報告後,"},{"start":1883.649,"end":1904.334,"text":"委員．帶話等32人提出質詢．均由經濟部．郭部長及相關人員即席答覆決定．登記發言委員．處不在場．走在區域．均與發言完畢．詢答結束二委員．民事明．陳冠廷．王宏維及傅坤祺．所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢案未及答覆部分．請相關單位與一周內以書面答覆並複製總會散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1915.47,"end":1917.791,"text":"再層委員．不足3人．議事錄暫時不處理繼續進行報告事項．請宣讀"},{"start":1939.875,"end":1958.165,"text":"本日議程排定．農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案．進行報告．並備質詢。我們先介紹在場的委員林黛嬅委員好再來介紹與會的各位首長還有張家俊委員好謝謝"},{"start":1966.343,"end":1967.484,"text":"請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?"},{"start":1997.48,"end":1999.021,"text":"主席、各位委員今天奉邀到"},{"start":2025.831,"end":2045.347,"text":"我們立法院的經濟委員會來報告有關於農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行報告首先還是感謝我們所有委員長期對我們農業的支持那以下我們用簡報的方式跟委員做相關的一個評估跟執行方案的一個說明"},{"start":2056.066,"end":2072.093,"text":"公糧的一個收購它是事實上它是從63年起到163年之間經歷的12次收購的一個調整那最近的一次的調整是在100年的一個調整那當時提高了公糧的價格是每公斤3塊錢並補助烘乾費等2塊錢每公斤"},{"start":2076.095,"end":2093.301,"text":"那整個稻作的面積在99年度99年大概24.4萬公頃那增加到103年達到27萬公頃那並持續的維持這個27萬公頃多年齁那期間會有一些一些變化最主要變化就是因為"},{"start":2094.663,"end":2119.594,"text":"有一些天肉異常那平均超產是20萬公噸那公糧的收購由99年的19.2萬公噸暴升到108年的57.5萬公噸那政府在公糧的一個收購的一個支出大概每年大概都差不多平均到100億左右那從91年開始我們加入WTO以後開放稻米進口那但是"},{"start":2121.021,"end":2146.855,"text":"我們國人的飲食習慣也開始做了一些改變每人每年的百米消費量從60年代的130公斤一直降到我們今年43公斤表示說每人每年10米的一個需求大概只剩下43公斤但是因為公糧價格的誘因我們種植面積一直沒辦法有效的控制所以"},{"start":2147.475,"end":2152.595,"text":"到目前為止,我們的稻穀的生產還是供給大於它的需求"},{"start":2156.693,"end":2181.766,"text":"所以我們在農業部在處理整個怎麼樣去精進稻米政策的時候其實我們有一個非常重要的一個目標就是我們一定要確保農民的收益但是在確保農民的收益的時候我們也要讓我們的產業持續的精進讓我們的產業不斷的進步永續的發展所以在這個基本的目標的前提之下大概有兩個策略可以去處理第一個就是提高公糧的價格"},{"start":2182.694,"end":2200.905,"text":"第二個部分就是提高產地的價格那底下就用兩個方式來跟各位來一個說明那我先說一下現在目前稻穀收購的一個方式那整個現在目前的一個稻穀收購大概30%的數量是繳交到公糧"},{"start":2201.866,"end":2230.404,"text":"那另外70%的數量是由民糧來收或者是用集團產區契作來收那繳交公糧的這些稻農的一個習性那因為基本上繳公糧他是不分品質的他是不分品質的他是只管數量所以相對的就是種稻的農民比較偏好固定的一個品種然後產量比較高的一個品種那相對的他"},{"start":2231.946,"end":2259.238,"text":"這些品種很容易受到最近的氣候變遷造成的一些影響所以相對於遇到天然災害的時候它可能損失也比較大那角膠民糧因為角膠民糧後面的基礎產品它是做品牌為主的所以當我做品牌的時候我會對品質的要求會大於對量的一個要求然後對於生產管理的方式也會比較朝向於合理化跟安全用途的方式來著手"},{"start":2259.938,"end":2279.332,"text":"然後這些民糧本身的一些極端產區的經營主體他也會嘗試不同的品種來因應我們未來的一個氣候變遷的一個影響那如果說我們用下一個表來看的話"},{"start":2280.543,"end":2308.224,"text":"整個繳交公糧的全部百分之百繳交公糧的人大概是2.2萬人那繳交部分繳交公糧的部分大概就是百分之24然後繳交民糧為主的是百分之22那全部不繳公糧的大概有百分之44所以換句話說如果以人數來講全部的到農數大概是22.5萬人那有繳公糧的或是繳部分公糧的"},{"start":2310.345,"end":2319.07,"text":"純粹講公糧大概2.2萬人左右那如果說有跟公糧有接觸有來往的大概是12萬人左右大概是一半,將近一半的人數為主"},{"start":2322.981,"end":2348.972,"text":"我們看這個圖可以看得到整個的一個從100年以後開始我們提高公糧價格以後它的面積就開始逐漸的一個生長但是它反映的我們的產力價格卻到後來到109年到109年的時候就降到923塊就明白台金的部分那如果說我們看它的一個公糧的一個收購可以很明顯的看"},{"start":2349.713,"end":2360.106,"text":"當你的產地價格高的時候那道農就不會繳公糧他就會繳民糧當你的產地價格低的時候那大部分的人就會去繳公糧所以公糧"},{"start":2361.44,"end":2381.463,"text":"跟我們的那個民糧的繳交他會因為產地價格而有不一樣的一個影響那從100年以後我們推的到做試選山然後我們也推的大區輪座等一些政策的優言去確保他的面積在24萬公頃上下的時候那產地價格就不斷的拉上來"},{"start":2382.023,"end":2405.266,"text":"那產地價格拉上來的時候各位可以看到下面的他的公糧只剩下繳交公糧的剩下36萬跟33萬那事實上比107年的54萬跟57萬差很多那從這個數據可以顯示說如果我們支撐了很好的產地價格的時候那相對的大部分的稻農都願意去繳交民糧他就不會進到我們的公糧的系統來"},{"start":2408.086,"end":2426.421,"text":"那另外一個我想數據要跟我們所有委員分享的就是我們的食品量是逐漸的降低那相對的我們的產量也是逐漸的降低那如果各位可以看到一百年的時候一百年的時候因為我們再次提高了公糧的價格的時候它的產量又開始往上拉"},{"start":2427.222,"end":2447.362,"text":"但是我們的10米的消費量繼續的往下跌到大概42.1的去年度的42.1元但是它的產量就逐漸的上來那100年的時候因為我們推動了所謂的稻作試卷和稻卷輪作去有效的去控制面積的時候那產量才可以"},{"start":2447.802,"end":2458.071,"text":"逐漸的回穩往下降所以這些圖表也再次顯現出當你的面積提高的時候你的所有的價格都沒辦法去做一個有效的支撐"},{"start":2461.377,"end":2477.789,"text":"那第三個部分我想要跟各位委員說明的就是公糧價格的提高是只針對繳公糧的這些農民受益他並不利於整個稻米產業的一個發展因為剛才說了所有的稻農他繳數量來講70%是不繳公糧的"},{"start":2481.952,"end":2495.107,"text":"那不繳公糧的話他就不會因為公糧價格提高而受益那更同樣的就是我們現在在推動極端產區因為我們台灣的耕地非常小必須擴大災變面積才有效那"},{"start":2496.161,"end":2516.189,"text":"一旦我們提高了公糧以後那相對的原來在做極端產區以品質為主的這些產區的這些企作戶他就會因為公糧價格提高的誘因他就會轉回去種公糧那相對的未來的這些品牌米的後端的行銷就會造成一些困擾"},{"start":2516.989,"end":2536.503,"text":"那更重要就是其實以農業部來講我們看的是整體的產業那以糧食安全來講我們必須更積極的去針對雜糧的種植去做一個有效的推廣那相對的整個公糧的提高以後它對於其他的產業包括花卉包括雜糧部分它都有"},{"start":2537.364,"end":2538.105,"text":"那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2554.062,"end":2582.43,"text":"全世界到目前為止只有稻米只有台灣有稻米的一個保價收購的部分那相對的提高公糧價格對於水稻以外的產業他並沒有辦法直接受益那相對的公平性特別是我們在做歷史的座談裡面有很多種其他作物的這些品種給我們反應那公糧價格如果提高的時候那相對的這些其他的產業也會希望說如果說這樣子的方式對他們的農業的一個均衡發展是不利的"},{"start":2587.495,"end":2612.825,"text":"所以我想同樣是讓產業進步同樣是讓稻農的所得提高那農業部提出了一個一級二轉三加三的一個政策那這個政策其實最重要還是能夠提高整個稻農整體的一個收益並不部分的然後也能夠兼顧到我們的糧食安全跟我們的整個農業的一個永續發展那在一級的部分我想跟各位委員說明"},{"start":2615.814,"end":2637.225,"text":"一級的部分我們的目標就是我們要種優質的品種我們要高的一個棄作價格然後包括我們的一個存糧也是要高的部分所以整個政策目的大概分為三個部分第一個部分就是我們透過集團的經營由小面積變成大面積的耕種的話它會減少它的生產成本然後從引導農民從重視產量"},{"start":2641.308,"end":2654.838,"text":"轉向重視稻米品質的一個提升那第二部分就是種植優質特色的產品的話我們可以提高適當的一個砌作價格那第三個部分用這種方式來維持稻作的一個基本面積大概就是24萬公頃那"},{"start":2663.752,"end":2683.666,"text":"那怎麼樣加入極端產區呢?這邊做一個非常簡單的介紹極端產區就是有一個極端的經營主體那經營主體會跟農民契作那契作以後因為他要做後面的品牌的行銷那相對的他會在前端會去引導農民怎麼樣做有合理化的思維跟合理化的用藥"},{"start":2684.686,"end":2710.566,"text":"讓他的農藥跟肥料做精準的使用那相對的他的品質是因為比較好那他也可以做一個後段的一個品牌米的一個的一個行銷那透過品牌米讓我們的良質米的價格用優良的品質去提升他的一個一個收益那目前我想大概整個集團產區是大概是三萬五千公斤那我們會持續的努力去做推動"},{"start":2714.226,"end":2722.2,"text":"那一級的部分對農民到底有什麼誘因嗎?我們這邊設計的就是如果我們農民願意轉向集團栽培那轉向集團栽培的時候"},{"start":2726.012,"end":2752.194,"text":"第一個就是我們會給予農友大概每公頃一萬塊的一個獎勵的一個獎勵措施那如果說他願意配合極端產區的經營主體去轉成品質比較好的米的話我們另外給他三千兩百塊的一個獎勵金所以換句話說你參加農民參加一級的話大概可以一個期座可以領一萬三千兩百塊的部分那同樣的我們也鼓勵的契作"},{"start":2753.191,"end":2764.08,"text":"的經營主體讓企作的經營主體比較有大的能量去跟我們的農民做比較好的價格的企作那如果說採用優質的產品優質的品種種植的時候"},{"start":2772.779,"end":2785.389,"text":"大概整個的一個集團的契作至少是26塊半比我們現在的公糧價格是26塊還高0.5塊所以換句話說農民只要用U值的米做集團產集團經營那邊加入的集團產區"},{"start":2788.872,"end":2814.787,"text":"他的價格就是每公斤就可以達到26.5塊的這樣的一個要求那這樣的話不但可以增加他的收入也可以保障他的提高因為他是用企作的方式來做一個收購然後讓我們的整個米也能夠朝向更優質的方向去去著手所以換句話說如果原申報的農民他轉集團產區然後種優質的稻米的話大概可以多領了一萬三千兩百塊"},{"start":2817.213,"end":2822.491,"text":"第二個部分是二轉那二轉大概有兩個部分要向各位委員說明的"},{"start":2825.714,"end":2850.702,"text":"我們整個二轉的目的就是在我們現在的地層下限區高鐵沿線、雲林湖北高鐵沿線的地層下限區還有我們大區輪座的一個水資源的共同應用區裡面易缺水的水庫灌區裡面我們去推動這樣的一個二轉的措施那二轉的措施裡面大概一起做的部分大概就是我們的水庫的灌區裡面特別是"},{"start":2851.762,"end":2870.684,"text":"大區輪作的區域那另外一個區域就是高鐵沿線的部分包括湖北土庫延展跟北港境內的這些高鐵沿線的部分那這是整個過去我想我們過去3年大概有做了一些大區輪作的一個輪法那這個輪法未來還是會繼續去做一個相關的一個實施"},{"start":2873.032,"end":2894.911,"text":"那在一期做,你如果在一缺水的灌區裡面的話,我們會提供節水獎勵,那這個節水獎勵大概就是3萬塊那你如果說,你如果說配合這些綠肥景觀作物的翻耕的話,你的節水獎勵可以達到4.2元每一公頃4.2萬的部分,那如果說你同時也搭配了轉做其他作物的話,你又多了"},{"start":2895.652,"end":2895.672,"text":"致詢"},{"start":2913.339,"end":2940.317,"text":"高鐵沿線的特區的部分那它的節水獎勵更會提高到五萬塊因為高鐵沿線的地震下線對於整個交通的安全會有隱憂所以我們近年來一直積極在高鐵沿線推動這些轉焊座的這些部分所以相對的你如果轉焊座的部分的時候那相對的你的節水獎勵會提高到五萬塊那你如果說同樣是搭配我們的集團栽培那你會再增加0.5萬塊的就是換句話說是5.5萬的一個獎勵"},{"start":2945.78,"end":2964.747,"text":"那第二期的部分就比較特別了因為第二期本來水稻的成本也比較高它的收益也比較低所以我們這邊提供了一個你如果二期做的一個不重道的一個獎勵是每一公頃1.5萬元那你不重道的時候你去轉其他的作物那其他的作物搭配我們現在的政策"},{"start":2965.427,"end":2986.596,"text":"就是你如果轉 像你轉育民的話你可以得到6萬元的獎勵那你如果做小麥高粱的部分可以得到4.5萬元的獎勵那我們希望說透過這樣的一個不重道的獎勵1.5萬再搭配我的企作獎勵是0.5萬那至少你可以增加2萬塊的一個收入那整體來講整個的一個效益是4.5萬到8萬左右"},{"start":2990.793,"end":2997.872,"text":"整個營運主體當然我們也會配套給他相關的這些面積的一個獎勵跟他的一個補助還有一個金融的一個協助"},{"start":2999.568,"end":3026.378,"text":"那3加3大概有幾個重點那第一個重點就是我們會提高水稻異物質加強性保險的理賠金額我們會把他的目標價格至少提高3塊讓他在理賠的時候能夠至少每一公斤可以多3塊的這種概念就是目標價格能夠提高3塊當你的天然災害發生的時候你會得到更有收入的一個保障那第二個部分就是我們會推動市場採購"},{"start":3028.021,"end":3043.726,"text":"我們剛才講的其實我們推動一級二轉三加三的目的就是要支撐我們的產地的價格因為只有產地的價格提升才能夠照顧所有的稻農那當你的產地價格有一些波動的時候那我們就會到市場那邊做採購的動作"},{"start":3045.627,"end":3069.785,"text":"那採購的動作的時候就會讓我的產地價格得到一個適當的支撐而這個適當的支撐比起我把這些經費用在公糧的提高價格只能受到部分的農民受益的情況之下會更有效率的對整體的產業做一個支撐然後另外我們也會推廣多元的米食跟加工的一個部分"},{"start":3072.064,"end":3079.645,"text":"這是剛才我所提到的就是目標價格提高然後相對的就是整個市場採購的部分然後另外還有一個米斯的一個推廣"},{"start":3082.725,"end":3105.318,"text":"那整體我想我們做一個比較就是說我想主決議裡面有提高公糧價格5塊錢那相對的我們希望說同樣在照顧稻農的前提之下我們推出了一級二轉3加3的一個稻米產業升級的策略我們從幾個面向做一個比較第一個面向是從總受益人數來做比較那剛才也說了"},{"start":3106.278,"end":3129.47,"text":"提高公糧收購只有2.2萬人是全部繳公糧的那另外繳50%的公糧以上的大概5.4萬人沒有超過50%的4.9萬人那總計起來大概是12萬人但是一級二轉三加三最後支撐的是產地的價格那產地的價格支撐是所有的22.5萬人的動農全體受益的那在預算的支出方面來講"},{"start":3130.45,"end":3144.185,"text":"那如果說提高5塊錢的時候預計面積會增加到27到28萬公頃那相關所增加的經費大概是91億到116億那如果說用一級二轉三加三大概所用的經費大概是16.5億元那整個經費"},{"start":3147.389,"end":3176.969,"text":"因為公糧還有原來在收購的公糧所以整個經費對公糧的一個經費大概是178億到200億左右光公糧的收購這件事情那如果說用我們的一級二轉參加參的話就會維持原來的公糧收購的水準然後再加上16.5億就是112億那第二個第三個部分是增加風險的部分剛才也特別中整一下就是產地糧價的提升整個短多長工的部分公糧的提升就是短多長工"},{"start":3179.491,"end":3191.244,"text":"臺灣因為公糧價格提高的面積提高了造成後續的疲軟那相對的公糧價格提升很容易造成一些後端市場的百米的價格的一個衝擊那"},{"start":3193.393,"end":3218.079,"text":"第4個部分剛才也講了這些極端產區品牌的這些部分都沒有辦法照顧到那同樣的我們用一級二轉三加蛋的部分我們可以逐步擴大我們的極端產區栽培然後讓農友從量改變到值的一個確保然後提升整個轉焊桌的一個誘因這是我想我們做整體的一個分析那在這邊我也要跟各位做一個報告其實"},{"start":3220.243,"end":3246.741,"text":"農業部政府部門對於稻作產業這些稻農其實有每一年都投入相當大的經費去做它的一個支持然後我們也檢視了從111年到113年平均我們針對稻農大概每一年大概公糧價格不算的話就是投入了156億的經費去支持稻農的相關的這些作為包括環境基本給付、休耕轉作、收入保險"},{"start":3247.381,"end":3247.401,"text":"致詞"},{"start":3263.646,"end":3281.547,"text":"我們希望用一級二轉三家餐的方式來推動那相關的參與這樣的一個政策的話你每年每期做兩年的話大概可以提到三到六萬元然後如果說你是轉漢做的部分大概可以從一萬到六萬元不等"},{"start":3282.168,"end":3282.569,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":3302.267,"end":3304.528,"text":"主席我想請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":3326.92,"end":3330.745,"text":"部長 我們等一下再來討論這個公糧收購我想先問你 農業部與教育部共同推動全台灣2600所這個國小133.5萬名學童單班喝鮮乳的政策"},{"start":3344.524,"end":3365.834,"text":"結果呢因為政策上路 農業部教育部對供應鏈好像是非常的陌生只依靠想像導致有高達75%的學校都選擇喝飽酒乳那變成是斑斑喝飽酒乳這樣子就算了一直到9月底"},{"start":3366.314,"end":3374.857,"text":"開學一個月了才有學校喝到第一次多數縣市的學童連一次都沒有喝到部長你怎麼看這件事?"},{"start":3381.96,"end":3387.401,"text":"你不覺得這很誇張嗎?你們在執行這些政策之前都沒有想過它整個供應鏈要怎麼樣可以適時的供應給學校嗎?誇張的是保酒乳也因為這個生產供應不足下單了也沒有貨可以配送因此整個政策最荒唐的一幕終於出現了農業部怎麼講?"},{"start":3410.586,"end":3426.671,"text":"你們說訂不到保酒乳可以訂鮮乳啊?不是我想部長你會不會覺得這一幕很荒唐?我想整個的一個牛奶的供應品項大概有鮮乳跟保酒乳那相對的更不要說因為這個政策還排擠到了羊奶現在羊奶業者叫苦連天所有的羊奶落農叫苦連天"},{"start":3432.193,"end":3435.134,"text":"我非常的不能理解說農業部說為什麼不訂鮮奶只差沒有說何不食肉糜啊這真的是充分的宣示了什麼叫做昆庸學校為什麼要選擇煲酒爐就是因為冷鏈沒有跟上腳步啊"},{"start":3450.962,"end":3454.946,"text":"為什麼無法選擇鮮乳因為我們這個農業部說阿里山都有超商了一定可以喝到鮮奶配送絕對不是問題顯見農業部對於乳品的供應鏈非常的陌生這不是你主管的嗎"},{"start":3467.697,"end":3482.008,"text":"怎麼會超商跟學校能比嗎?數量能比嗎?人數能比嗎?這不是說超商可以學校就可以所以喔本席比重我沒有說過這樣的話超商可以學校就可以喔這第一個我在這裡語重心長的告訴部長就是說斑斑有鮮乳的政策會出這麼多的問題最大的原因是什麼?我想你可能也不能理解"},{"start":3493.416,"end":3499.359,"text":"最大的原因就是缺乏橫向溝通你們跟教育部溝通不足嘛你們跟學校溝通不足嘛而且是一意孤行規劃這個政策只坐在辦公室想像結果跟現實完全脫節才會遇到這麼多困難啊"},{"start":3510.365,"end":3528.324,"text":"我想我們現在目前還是希望說每個學校都能夠學生都能夠喝到我們的牛奶為目標然後我們會積極的跟乳廠去做溝通能夠提高另外一個問題你這個政策落實只有大乳廠可以供應你真正要為了要照顧這個紐西蘭"},{"start":3530.826,"end":3531.907,"text":"我想我要跟委員講齁"},{"start":3551.135,"end":3554.818,"text":"我跟妳報告,羊乳的部分我們已經有跟我們現在羊乳的協會在做一個溝通那羊乳有,因為羊乳大概一年只能供應大概一萬"},{"start":3576.295,"end":3583.438,"text":"一萬一萬噸左右那一萬噸的部分他沒有辦法全部所以我們會針對羊乳的部分去推動到其他的一個這很好這很好但是本席要提醒農業部的是任何的政策絕對不能靠想像尤其是這個公糧收購價格我們在討論公糧收購價格你一整本都在講一級二轉三加三我根本不想再吐槽你了你的二轉實施多少年了"},{"start":3605.687,"end":3610.891,"text":"10年了你今天還在告訴我說這個事情是要拿來取代公糧收購價格提高本來的黃金郎道你換一個名字說大輪座就是二轉如果假設這個二轉是可以取代公糧收購制度的話本席也支持你啊問題是你的一級二轉三加三就是新瓶裝舊酒"},{"start":3628.163,"end":3629.544,"text":"我看所有的政策都是在現行的政策之下滾動去檢討 滾動去精進的所以我希望你們能夠支持"},{"start":3651.111,"end":3657.997,"text":"這麼有信心的話你能不能掛保證說一年沒有漲一塊你要下台你有沒有辦法為你的政策負責但是你就是沒有信心嘛你把農民當實驗品我告訴你說跟班喝鮮乳沒有落實只是學童喝不到鮮乳但是你的公糧收購價格因編不編影響了整個總預算你也不痛不癢嘛"},{"start":3679.733,"end":3685.939,"text":"所以現在是整個行政院都在演嗎他們根本不在乎總預算嘛如果假設卓院長在乎總預算的話會放任你每天都來報告一級二轉三加三不來報告公糧收購價格提高嗎我們一級二轉三加三已經在地方推動了大概將近二十幾場了"},{"start":3697.449,"end":3702.371,"text":"我告訴你一堆農民你這個政策跟你斑斑喝鮮乳一樣都是照顧大農不照顧小農我現在跟你講的是小農老農需要照顧我告訴你國治會部長他至少敢講要是拿了補助台電再漲電價的話他就要走人你呢"},{"start":3722.62,"end":3725.602,"text":"你敢不敢為你的政策負責?你每天在講的這個一級二轉三加三你敢為你的政策負責嗎?我本席啊在這裡在告訴你就是說一級二轉三加三這件事情就是一個實驗"},{"start":3738.829,"end":3762.324,"text":"跟斑斑喝鮮乳一樣 我想我們的政策不是用實驗的方式去處理你就是在做實驗嘛你沒有辦法掛保證說他一定一年會長一代你沒有辦法落實照顧到農民我本期建議你並行並行不是告訴你說一級二轉三加三不好是應該一邊照顧農民一邊做這個實驗因為公糧收購一提高了之後你的機關的農民就會互相干擾"},{"start":3764.445,"end":3765.746,"text":"為什麼要為了農業部卡死了整個政府的總預算行政院是什麼態度行政院有沒有告訴你說你要積極的溝通你要積極的調整"},{"start":3793.223,"end":3818.036,"text":"如果沒有的話那行政院到目前為止說他多在乎總預算都是在演戲嘛我今天非常感謝召委能夠安排這樣的一個會議我們可以做一個理性的溝通不是委員不審是你們不依法編列你們不依法編列這才是問題的所在啊委員主決議提高公糧最主要的目的就是提高稻農所得我們也是朝這個方向來做"},{"start":3826.377,"end":3827.82,"text":"好 請林代化委員質詢有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":3838.052,"end":3840.614,"text":"部長在正式質詢之前我想在禮拜一的時候在加拿大有一間飲料公司Boba他正式的道歉他道歉什麼呢是針對我們台灣的珍奶在國際上在創業的節目當中被文化扭曲了而這位漫威演員劉詩牧我們好萊塢的華裔演員他站出來"},{"start":3864.189,"end":3864.469,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3889.24,"end":3894.885,"text":"農業部絕對支持一級到三級到六級的一個產業也謝謝委員的一個支持"},{"start":3909.714,"end":3909.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":3928.224,"end":3954.666,"text":"這個智慧決策如何根本的解決菜土菜金的問題所以基層農業機構資訊設備老舊不符需求農業部應加速協助更新全面進入農業的AI世代好我這邊有幾個現況在做爬書那農業委員會的這個設備現況是不符合黑I的運用第三個農業多元系統整合跟資訊共用雲端服務的開發"},{"start":3955.367,"end":3971.321,"text":"我講的是非金融的部分第4個面對營收的壓力農會淘汰也就是像太重了就相對的保守本席有一個具體的有些具體的要求好在這個今年的5月29的時候本席也再次提出"},{"start":3972.021,"end":3972.062,"text":"致詢委員"},{"start":3995.356,"end":4003.982,"text":"整個Windows、Windows XP、Windows 7、Windows 8這個時候我們已經這個都停止服務了2014年4月8號、2020、2023到Windows 10還有多少台的這個電腦呢"},{"start":4013.009,"end":4024.817,"text":"1060它是在星期一的時候全面停止了維護日期的好這樣子包括WIN11的我們現在還有427台我現在是針對中南部的141家的農漁會那這樣的結果也就是說75%在農在南部當中75%的電腦資訊是完全漏落問題的"},{"start":4036.284,"end":4053.84,"text":"好那如果今天我要來做更新的話我們Windows 11不需要更新外共有1656部電腦全部要更新我如果用最低等級一台27000這四架大概要花五六千萬但是那個是根本沒有辦法去運"},{"start":4054.861,"end":4055.982,"text":"致早都要符合一台要4萬5這都是立法院的價格"},{"start":4069.858,"end":4073.182,"text":"那這都不包含我這個網路的483台的印表機跟159台的防火牆這我是針對中南部的農業會141家做了盤點所以呢在農業會的資訊設備情況根本不符合AI有6大"},{"start":4084.855,"end":4084.875,"text":"好"},{"start":4103.624,"end":4108.466,"text":"那為了讓我們的農業決策不是只有我要肯定部長的部分你們確實在我幾次的質詢之後在陳其仲主委的時候包括您當部長我非常肯定你們真的在你們的部本部內開始了這個資訊化的智慧化的一個整個雲端系統的一個整合那我們基層的農漁會呢"},{"start":4129.873,"end":4133.496,"text":"如果我基層的農運會沒有辦法在整個系統朝向高運算的這樣的系統你怎麼勾結在有些相關的我們的這個產銷資訊農業的養殖你怎麼勾結你怎麼掌握我的菜土菜金供需失衡的問題"},{"start":4147.848,"end":4169.038,"text":"今天要推這個農業智慧化就解決這個供需失調的問題我想這個是我一再的講這個如果能夠在陳部長您任內能夠完成我的整個雲端智慧化決策智慧化包括基層農業的這個智慧化我想這是真的是根本的解決我們農漁會的菜土菜金的問題供銷失衡的問題"},{"start":4171.179,"end":4182.748,"text":"這個是我真的是覺得是真的是這是我都覺得這個您在任內是已經不負不負不負人民了好所以在這個大數據當中我要有要智慧化就一定要精準的數據"},{"start":4184.463,"end":4206.15,"text":"所以在這個大數據平台建制雲端服務的平台他至少初期先整合採請流程人事資資新資財產匯集保健老龍健保肥料競銷存這是初步這對我們的相關的這個農業的現況就先做了一個掌握了及電子公文等非金融資訊的部分這"},{"start":4207.19,"end":4235.864,"text":"如果我這個資訊共用架構整個農漁會整合在一塊我就可以不要讓單獨的農漁會去做採購硬體自己去自建機房人力設備的營運成本我不需要一家農會自己去做我是整體的農會而且是跟我農業部整合在一塊的所以在雲端服務平台為基礎可進步藉由各農會掌握農漁民的健康保險的制度覆蓋的人口型態"},{"start":4236.744,"end":4237.844,"text":"這也可以提供這個農業智慧會話所需的資訊"},{"start":4265.433,"end":4275.755,"text":"未來我們希望他也一定是得這樣做整合我大器的資訊養種植的區塊養種植的技術等像例如現在的風災我們全面你可以怎麼樣免勘災這個其實我要肯定部長啊您這個從優從簡重塑的部分您這次是真的我們到你這邊縣市政府到你這邊你隔天就合下去做相關的補助而且免勘災的部分這個本是給你最大的肯定所以像這樣災後的重建我也可以利用大數據的平台"},{"start":4295.2,"end":4316.232,"text":"數據給予農民最快速的協助好那為什麼農會 農運會他不願意投入這樣的成本因為根據農會人事的管理辦法第8條我農會每年的總用人人費人的人事費用是按照上年度的總收益也就是我賺的多我才更多用人"},{"start":4316.732,"end":4319.975,"text":"農運會為了增加人力跟留住人才每年的總收益就很重要如果我花大筆的錢去購買資訊設備我總收益就下降我排擠的人事經費我的競爭力當然下降所以在這本席我也主張在幾次的質詢都主張過"},{"start":4339.935,"end":4349.165,"text":"在針對農業部應該參考加薪負擔限制條文30年沒改了因本席要爭取購農漁會的用人費、薪水各組提高10%這是一個編制表好我這邊具體要求有幾項第一個請農業部參考財團法人農漁會南區資訊中心"},{"start":4360.998,"end":4364.541,"text":"盤點這是他們財團法人盤點你自己總要盤點吧你根據他們的資料下去盤點他們盤點快將近快3到5個月我就記得到快要5個月很認真的盤點所以你們那個農糧署應該有一本厚厚他們的計畫書了中南部農業會的資訊老舊設備並嚴靈補助方案解決農業會的資訊設備所衍生的資安的問題"},{"start":4385.64,"end":4396.246,"text":"第二 農業部嚴理農業會資訊系統共用平台發展的計畫．那此相關的資料能互動有效提升農業會的經營效能第三 請農業部省慎評估農業人士的管理辦法．爭取各農業會的用人費．薪水各組提高10%那部長你怎麼看"},{"start":4409.727,"end":4428.463,"text":"非常簡要的回答委員的一些要求第一個部分就是農業部在推動農業的數位服務裡面那非常感謝委員這樣的一個規劃跟提示那我們大概分為兩個部分一個是硬體的部分一個是軟體的部分那硬體的部分要包括資訊中心"},{"start":4429.804,"end":4429.944,"text":"這我也認同"},{"start":4446.375,"end":4451.817,"text":"我認同,但是你一定要全面性,不要那種計劃型你只要就針對我141家整個中南部所有的農業會我沒有意見,但是至少我南部的部分已經做好準備了"},{"start":4462.281,"end":4481.727,"text":"部長我已經做好準備了沒有人我花了快到3到5個月不等另外有一些像印表機等他不是用買用租的反而會更有效率所以這個我們會跟他們溝通但是你支不支持這樣的計畫我們容易會多元系統的整合跟資訊共享你支持嗎一個月提出來好嗎一個月來回覆我針對我本席今天所執行的部分好謝謝"},{"start":4495.239,"end":4495.739,"text":"請求議員委員諮詢請陳部長"},{"start":4518.773,"end":4536.571,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想今天這個召委再度排定讓您來報告這個有關公糧收購價格提高這件事情那我記得當時上個會期結束前在立法院表決的時候我是代表民進黨黨團上來發言"},{"start":4539.033,"end":4557.547,"text":"原則上我是反對公糧收購價格提高,現在的公糧,這個部長我想請教一下,今年的公糧種植面積是多少?跟去年相比起來?大概24萬公頃左右,比去年多1萬多公頃"},{"start":4560.649,"end":4560.669,"text":"來 這個部長"},{"start":4590.206,"end":4593.86,"text":"糧食自給率已經創下新低,您同意吧?"},{"start":4595.827,"end":4622.945,"text":"吃稻米的這個量也是歷史上的新低吃蔬菜的量也是歷史上的新低反而現在大家吃了很多的肉類所以台灣的稻米產量過剩這個是不爭的事實我們的吃米的量其實是非常少再加上種植公糧所以你每年會產生大量的純糧"},{"start":4625.186,"end":4642.157,"text":"每年大概20萬公噸基本最少那好玩的來囉全球都在缺米結果台灣的稻米產量是過剩日本大缺米日本在鬧白米荒他的庫存量是17年來最低"},{"start":4643.536,"end":4659.107,"text":"市長有沒有想過我們現在一直講說我們的水果可以外銷日本外銷到其他的國家去如果台灣的糧食問題台灣的米糧的存貨是多的話有沒有可能我們來鼓勵農民"},{"start":4661.209,"end":4662.05,"text":"如果這個誘因再給他提高"},{"start":4676.939,"end":4697.775,"text":"讓更多人願意去種植優質米讓更多人願意把這樣的好的台灣米銷到世界各國去甚至當比較久的這些所謂的公糧米你如果能夠送到開發中的國家去或者是有一些需要物資救援的國家去你其實可以做好事不用說30塊20幾塊買來的公糧把他打造齊了10塊又賣不出去"},{"start":4702.83,"end":4721.997,"text":"部長您同意我的建議嗎?我想謝謝委員的提醒跟指正我想分兩個部分公糧的部分我們盡可能的不要讓它變成飼料米所以我們會針對一些原住的或是其他的部分第二個部分就是您剛才講的很重要的一點就是稻米其實也是可以外銷的"},{"start":4722.637,"end":4732.783,"text":"但是外銷一定要有比較好的一個品牌跟品質這是非常重要的所以我才一直強調我們的優質米比如說我們的美濃147米時尚米等等台灣優質的米我們的這個農改所裡頭大家這個專家研發出來好的這些稻米我覺得就趁這個機會把它推銷出去嘛我們不用一直在這裡講說哎呀公糧收購公糧的價格要提高多少其實我們是應該鼓勵優質的"},{"start":4754.938,"end":4770.613,"text":"我非常同意我們的政策目標也是讓農民變成從量的重視變成質的重視這樣的話後續的品牌米跟U值的米才能夠有機會不只是供應給國內的也可以外交到其他的國家"},{"start":4771.013,"end":4797.271,"text":"所以如果公糧的收購價格不提高我覺得你從另外一個方式去下手讓更多的農民受惠我覺得農業部要一直不斷的去讓大家知道現在一直在講公糧的收購價格提高公糧的收購價格提高5塊錢你受益的人數大概了不起12萬是占全體農民49萬50萬裡頭只有占大概"},{"start":4801.313,"end":4817.606,"text":"五分之一只有12萬人受益但是你的預算增加要增加91億到116億這個是看你的種植面積你必須增加這麼多的預算那你現在推的所謂的一級二轉3加3"},{"start":4818.627,"end":4821.749,"text":"你可以受惠到22.5萬的稻農,但是你只要花16.5億,就可以讓22萬的稻農都受到幫助。"},{"start":4834.574,"end":4859.577,"text":"我不知道這個計算為什麼大家會聽不懂然後剛剛有很多的委員或者是說等一下可能國民黨的委員還會再上來問你我想要請教雲林嘉義種植的雜糧雜糧的價格幾年沒調整了雜糧的農民要不要要不要照顧他們不敢提這一塊台中彰化的花卉花農要不要照顧不敢提這一塊"},{"start":4860.658,"end":4870.764,"text":"你只把全部的錢都放在公糧收購5塊錢,但是得到好處是誰?糧商、帶耕業者、肥料業者。農民真的有收到好處嗎?沒有啊。你的公糧收購價格多5塊錢。"},{"start":4880.513,"end":4907.114,"text":"帶耕業者的帶耕成本就會增加工錢就會增加嘛肥料就會增加嘛你所有的人工成本都會增加嘛但是你實際的農民你有沒有拿到多身家的錢沒有耶所以我覺得這個觀念的轉變齁其實是很重要的我們如何讓最小的預算花下去能夠照顧最多的農民這個才是政府應該要做的事情不是嗎你要花116億結果只有照顧12萬人"},{"start":4909.215,"end":4926.862,"text":"這12萬人還不見得是他們真的拿到錢你花了16.5億你可以照顧到22.5萬的人然後你還可以增加台灣的糧食自給率你還可以讓台灣的優質稻米輸出你還可以增加台灣的好民生甚至創造台灣的外匯"},{"start":4929.095,"end":4949.984,"text":"所以我不太懂得他們是怎麼計算所以我是公開反對公糧收購價格還要再增加5塊那我也公開反對要利用這樣子去綁架政府的總預算甚至綁架所有的農業預算如果口口聲聲說照顧農民的話你更不應該綁架這個預算"},{"start":4951.765,"end":4971.852,"text":"部長這一題我跟您討論到這邊接下來我要跟您討論到國土計劃法上次我們討論到這個農業部要推所謂的堆疊式的給付政策你們原來講說9月的時候就要公布這個堆疊式的給付內容可是到現在10月了還沒有看到是不是在中間有遇到什麼問題可不可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":4972.557,"end":4995.833,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們在對賊是己夫的部分在內部已經規劃好了那規劃好我們會預計會在這個月就開始會對外的去做一些座談跟溝通我們不希望說我們設計完了以後就去做說明,我們希望說在溝通的過程中有哪一些先到地方上去做說明,先到地方上去做說明,然後聽取一些意見再做調整"},{"start":4997.054,"end":5020.037,"text":"我們已經有了初步的一個規劃了所以我們近期就會啟動這樣的一個方式那你的這個所謂的堆疊式補助他應該不會是跟國土計畫法綁在一起的吧對他應該是假如說你的整體規劃完成他是可行的是不是應該會是在國土計畫法上路之前就開始對於農地有做這樣子的堆疊式的補助"},{"start":5020.578,"end":5020.758,"text":"請張棋凱委員質詢"},{"start":5077.523,"end":5090.651,"text":"請農業部長請陳部長委員好今天在討論公糧這個價格已經13年沒有調整我先問你一個軍工價包括你這13年你調薪調了幾次我沒有去算"},{"start":5102.728,"end":5126.414,"text":"加薪加到都幾次都自己不曉得啊農民13年一次都沒有不會太可憐嗎我想公糧是目前全世界唯一有公糧保障價格的收入對啊你之前有這個他相對的他不是一個因為你只調公糧的時候那對其他的產業他是不公平的其他可以一起照顧啊主席我先問你問清楚你知道嗎你這13年農民一毛不拔的時候"},{"start":5130.117,"end":5154.582,"text":"你已經調薪調了4次你明年1月1號你要調薪對不對你明年要調13年來的第5次農民情何以堪你是農業部長農業部所有的官員你不是應該照顧農民嗎你們自己加了5次加了17%喔你們好意思你們臉都不會紅燒農民的公糧收購一碼錢都不要增加"},{"start":5155.762,"end":5171.334,"text":"好意思嗎?我在跟你講,部長,不是只有你們的薪水問題基本工資,農民也是要請人工,對不對?基本工資,13年,調了12次上漲了43%這個要調跟物價有關係嘛,對不對?農民也是人啊,也要過一季啊物價調了多少?"},{"start":5183.189,"end":5208.876,"text":"價值數上漲至少15% 農作業成本最少15% 因為你的薪水到德國的薪水 基本工資到物價為什麼不幫農民呢 農民要給他們賺錢你現在變成一個怎麼樣 保證來 我跟你講 現在我去電話跟你們講 民間是生的啦民間是生的 人家現在有問兩個問題嘛 你自己丟 為什麼你沒丟 但是 你知道嗎 吃米不知道米多少齁"},{"start":5213.362,"end":5219.049,"text":"你現在說不夠農民的思維是不是?我問你一下,你懂嗎?你懂嗎?來,我問你,農民叫我問你的啦,否定?你什麼農民現在很丟臉,一分錢可以賺多少錢?"},{"start":5228.627,"end":5240.433,"text":"一公斤一公斤差不多6到8萬6到8萬左右好一點的話7萬到8萬二期做的話大概4到6萬你不要看他的看你自己農業部的下面的資料是你農業部的你農糧食的資料喔"},{"start":5257.845,"end":5282.178,"text":"一公頃實際能夠生產的你甘股一分地能夠生產的錢多少?一百一千一百二十二塊而已如果大部分的農民現在是租地對不對有沒有?把租地放進去你看喔我現在給你看的時候都怕被租了喔不然你自己看喔把租地的成本再放進去一公頃如果是兩萬四的話一公頃喔"},{"start":5283.644,"end":5305.939,"text":"農民辛辛苦苦 種一期 今年一期的稻作一公頃 你看身分要多多少 你看15萬 你先看 你先看 你先聽我講 這是你農業部的資料啦不是 他的那個實際生產成本已經包括了租地已經放進去了對啊 不然對啊阿這邊你又加了一個租地 重複加了什麼重複加 這是你農業部的 農業部的聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":5313.839,"end":5321.687,"text":"一公頃十三萬兩千零九十九塊,把租金放進去,都加了兩萬四千三百二十七塊。"},{"start":5331.476,"end":5332.636,"text":"農業部的稅率你回去對一下"},{"start":5358.966,"end":5372.415,"text":"這是農民發生的,我已經找很多農民的東西都會算出來,一分錢差不多可以讓新聞開發一個集,包括肥料,包括施工,包括電子,你看,裡面一個大宗,你看右邊這張圖,農民那是很可憐的"},{"start":5375.816,"end":5382.799,"text":"你光是那個1到3月電費就要花了多少錢?1萬2,3到5月電費是2萬1,你看電費最近13年,電費已經漲了多少了?電費我們有補貼啊有補貼,可是老實講也是漲對不對?這個就是成本之一嘛,我聽你說,來來,這是先噴嘛,來你看下一張"},{"start":5393.792,"end":5398.995,"text":"一公頃收入大概只有17萬多來我們看下一張你把他收入的錢減掉他自己的成本這很簡單嘛這是國小的數學題嘛五點你看一下一公頃收入"},{"start":5421.294,"end":5447.57,"text":"不可以半年喔 一期到我們要忙半年喔 收入一公頃只有15萬多支出15萬多 收入只有17萬多 如果你把它變成是一分地 一分地你看 收入17萬多 支出只有15萬多而已所以啦 整個說一句話啦 保證 剩一分地啦 不可以整半年 半年喔 忙半年"},{"start":5449.278,"end":5466.551,"text":"那個賺的錢啊連紅白包一包都不夠不然你如果去吃火鍋你的紅包你至少要包個兩三千對不對農民辛辛苦苦賺半年沒人半年賺不到兩千塊欸只賺到多少一千七百零七十九塊欸"},{"start":5469.571,"end":5495.662,"text":"這個數據跟我們統計的數據差得非常多,這第一個你算多少?你算多少?你一分錢,你告訴我,你能收多少?我用一公頃,就是除以十啦我不要這是一期做還是二期做,一期做的話大概六到八萬然後二期做到四到六萬然後如果齁,我昨天來特別請我們統計針對農家收入所得提到的純粹繳公糧的收益"},{"start":5496.542,"end":5498.804,"text":"一分多就四千啦一分多就四萬啦一分多就四萬啦"},{"start":5526.926,"end":5533.128,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 農民的一個收益 讓全國的民眾 讓全國的民眾去公平 農業部長說我們農民忙了半年 沒人幾百年 他兩千塊的四千塊是有夠的"},{"start":5555.395,"end":5569.646,"text":"有嗎?我跟委員報告齁,農民的收益一定是靠產品的優質化去提高價格而不是用政府的資金去貼他的部分優質化你在上面一急二轉,你去做嘛這個是一個非常重要的觀念現在就是有這麼多人要靠這個過一年,現在就是貪無吃啊"},{"start":5572.83,"end":5595.577,"text":"所以我們現在推了一級二準參加在希望說能夠提高他的所得因為這個數據有問題我覺得會誤導你跟我的落差好,我說兩兩千塊都不到嘛你說可能有三四千,我只要講就是用你的四千塊,我一期不是對的啦我再說一期做是六到八千,二期做是四到六千"},{"start":5596.297,"end":5624.553,"text":"加起來是差不多一萬你講話要對農民要負責我負責這是我們的統計數據來講政治問題沒有人幾百年賺紅白包就一百百不夠啦阿你講話也多兩包而已啦說實在的農民是要怎麼考慮你讓他倒三天你做農業不定的我剛剛切進來你自己都在加薪了你1月1號馬上要加薪為什麼不能我這樣公園加薪公公園的時候不是那是兩碼子的事情欸我們不能這樣比對啊"},{"start":5626.733,"end":5645.763,"text":"你自動放棄你的加薪你若不在意這個的話你加薪你放棄可不可以你放棄我都跟你放棄阿你憑啥加薪對吧不是你憑啥加薪這是兩件事情嘛政府的加薪跟農民公糧因為公糧是少部分的公費阿你放棄你的加薪好不好我如果今天提高五塊農民拍拍手就結束了對產業是沒有進步的阿"},{"start":5653.863,"end":5679.897,"text":"現在我剛才很理性跟你講支出跟成本對不對我現在跟你講另外一個事情你今天站在這裡你不只不要站在農民的對立面你也不要站在立法院的對立面我問你一下你現在是不是見到113席立委的共識跟決議那天表決的時候多少人有沒有人反對邱毅英剛才在那裡說什麼邱毅英那天有沒有人反對"},{"start":5685.99,"end":5708.02,"text":"主決議提高五塊,他背後的目的就是希望盜農提高所得嘛那我們同樣提高盜農所得,我們用另外一個方式來執行,也是達到委員的目的嘛所以你要幫忙嘛,你讓他維持那基本的生活所需啊是不是這樣?這是第一個事情,我現在跟你講的"},{"start":5709.601,"end":5735.875,"text":"你為什麼當農業部長?你是中華民國的農業部長,你要遵守台灣的民主法治啊!所以我要照顧的是所有的產業,不是只有公糧的這些人!外地人說的事情,第一個他是有潛力可行的,一百年調高的一公斤,調高三塊錢,立法院做的決議,一百年,民國一百年的時候,立法院做的決議,行政部門就編了嘛,對不對?你有潛力可行,這是第一類嘛!第一類是民主化的社會!"},{"start":5740.624,"end":5754.438,"text":"那天我代表臺灣民眾黨提的這個案子每公斤調高26塊錢我們是要加速整個產業這個升級要照顧到我們的農民喔那天表決你看那天韓國瑜韓主席都請問議員會照臺灣民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團修正動議通過每公斤調高5塊錢有沒有意義"},{"start":5763.288,"end":5786.6,"text":"大家看一下那天的標刊這是立法院的公文書一個立法院反對都沒有包括民進黨的立法委員你現在不只站在農業對立面你現在站在所有立委的對立面而且我剛剛跟你講了一百年都照做了你為什麼不做有潛力可行第二個立法院通過的這是法治社會你憑什麼沒得做"},{"start":5788.308,"end":5789.589,"text":"我沒有另外一個方式來支持盜農的所得"},{"start":5813.766,"end":5815.707,"text":"你現在不是對立委喔你現在是對民意、對農民、對台灣的法治社會啊立法院以前就是這樣運作的啊結果你反其道而行"},{"start":5840.799,"end":5868.869,"text":"破壞了臺灣的民主跟法治欸我想以農業部的立場就是要讓我們的產業能夠持續的進去這個案子立法院通過了而且當天一個人反對都沒有阿你不想做阿立法院就關起來阿你還是保證你想農民不會照顧嗎我們一直在照顧農民我們用另外一個方式來照顧農民的我跟你講剛剛邱委員一直在講你有雙軌嘛"},{"start":5870.578,"end":5892.323,"text":"立法院的決議這是法治問題,台灣是法治的社會,民主的社會,你不要去過,又有潛力可行,你趕快編,這是一個,你一直在講你一級二轉,我跟你說,我去政客說聽不懂啦,因為二轉你轉十幾年了轉不動啊,好啦,我轉兩年,你自己有專業,但你這雙軌啊,你少跟便利商啊,變完以後你去推你一級二轉,3加3"},{"start":5895.387,"end":5918.075,"text":"你三年在街上看,你繼續做嘛,看人民、農民有贊同你嘛,我們今天說的不是完全超過農民的,這是整個台灣民主社會你現在去推翻了台灣的這個法制,你以為日本人要開會嗎?我今天做這個卦定,你現在不會理我嗎?啊日本人不關起來,我問你這件事不定,你不遵守"},{"start":5921.885,"end":5941.772,"text":"我所瞭解的就是說在立法院本身的決議裡面如果可以要求我們因為預算是我們來編的那如果說有講到這個經費的部分的話我們必須要好好的評估這樣子一個決議是不是對我們的產業是有幫助我們的預算都是通過立法院審查的我們任何的決議你都可以推翻嘛是不是這個意思"},{"start":5949.195,"end":5967.147,"text":"我沒有這個意思我沒有這個意思你要不只重視地方你要重視台灣的民主發地我告訴你一百年是怎樣一百年過就變了那就是發地的精神嘛轉世紀那種國會過的東西行政部門又把它推翻你在害台灣啦說實在的"},{"start":5968.478,"end":5990.36,"text":"我做個折衷趕快編這個也是現在總預算要解決總預算要三個嘛原住民的精華條例要處理嘛通常其實請你接這個也沒有多少錢啊你看台電一下撥補一千億你要給人家你那個雞蛋一下浪費了十億啊裡面浪費還很多我們會大砍會嚴格監督的你砍下來的錢都足夠去給農民了啦"},{"start":5991.852,"end":6020.4,"text":"好不好我做折衷方案趕快編然後你去推你的那個一級二轉看農民到底要不要接受啦好不好我還要加油啦各位知道人家都說你故意啊結果你故意的東西你的尊重發低啊你不能夠一直在農民的對立面一直在我們絕對不會站在農民的對立面我們一定會用實際的行動去支持產業的發展對啊所以你用你的一級二轉3加3你一面子嘛可是這個是立法院牽扯到臺灣的民宿發低捏"},{"start":6022.421,"end":6022.561,"text":"請鄭政權委員質詢"},{"start":6050.521,"end":6052.424,"text":"呃謝謝主席我想找一下那個陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":6061.471,"end":6079.297,"text":"部長好,公糧收購本來是對農民有益,對於台灣糧食安全有一個保障的狀態,結果現在處理成感覺好像變成一個政治問題了。那部長我先簡單問你一下,那個山頭和颱風的時候,到目前為止的時候有多少的農損?"},{"start":6081.007,"end":6081.527,"text":"新竹市有兩千多萬"},{"start":6110.401,"end":6112.083,"text":"新竹市是多少?金額多少?"},{"start":6122.13,"end":6141.936,"text":"我可能會有再提供喔 因為我請你查一下那我再問你一下喔 凱米颱風的時候 總共的那個農損大概金額是多少大概是20 現在速報提出來是26億吧 有沒有資料給我啊部長是36億 那凱米颱風裡面有多少是新竹市的農損"},{"start":6144.81,"end":6168.049,"text":"這個我可能還要再查你之後再跟我講一下我為什麼特別一開始提這個問題因為我發現我看到農損資料當中的時候其實都沒有新竹市的資料那有可能一個狀態是新竹市本來就不是農業大縣所以我看到你這邊提出來的一個農業部對於公糧收購的部分你提出了"},{"start":6169.179,"end":6194.904,"text":"一級二轉三加三這個部分你做了一個很清楚的一個比較我很認真的去看了一下可是我發現你裡面也是在玩數字遊戲那就把公糧收購講得很不堪那你剛剛也提到說全世界現在只剩台灣有公糧收購如果農業部真的覺得公糧收購這麼不應該的時候就取消嘛農業部有這個權責去做這個事情可是目前在做的時候呢整個立法院已經通過"},{"start":6197.005,"end":6217.378,"text":"113席委員會通過這個組決議的時候呢然後農業部完全不甩然後在這裡面把這個公糧收購講得很差啊就是說講到說整個會讓糧價短多長空然後會造成那個百米價格上漲造成民生衝擊民生消費然後講到說不利到"},{"start":6217.978,"end":6218.458,"text":"部長我讓你看一個東西"},{"start":6250.08,"end":6266.221,"text":"你知道那個對地綠色環境給付計畫你知道這個計畫吧對不對這個計畫我想請教一下部長他一開始裡面也有一個很大的一個目標就是希望能夠"},{"start":6267.651,"end":6270.113,"text":"這幾戶整個的話是totally大概是100億"},{"start":6292.568,"end":6311.416,"text":"對地綠色環境給付計畫他的整個經費來源是來自於農產品受進口損害救助基金一百億我不知道你的數字從哪裡我今天問了幾個數字部長你都沒有給我一個很清楚的數字我看到第一期從107年到110年整個預算基本是381.72億"},{"start":6317.93,"end":6318.553,"text":"你怎麼會只講這100億那另外280億到哪裡去"},{"start":6324.516,"end":6350.453,"text":"這107到110大概是4年期的計畫4年的期的計畫那我剛剛說的大概大概是100億左右因為一年100億左右大概一年100億左右一年100億左右嘛齁第二期當中所以111年到114年目前還在第二期當中的時候總共是469.88億一年超過100億一年超過100億嘛對不對還有一個環境基本給付包括環境基本給付的部分理解齁一年超過100億嘛齁然後"},{"start":6353.325,"end":6378.032,"text":"部長你知道嗎在整個對地綠色環境給付計畫裡面平均每年我先把它算出來到目前為止平均每年有74.87億元獎勵金用在鼓勵轉作用在鼓勵轉作這個就是這一次我們在講公糧收購很重要的一個部分你提到一級二轉三加三這個裡面很大一部分就是希望就是"},{"start":6379.721,"end":6395.59,"text":"道米耕作的範圍不要太大然後我們看一下從106年到112年公糧到股那個收購的數量跟決算經費收購的量在這個地方收購量106、107、108、109持續的上漲可是我們從107年開始的時候這個對地綠色環境給付計畫就開始進行了"},{"start":6404.735,"end":6405.055,"text":"我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":6427.501,"end":6444.954,"text":"一百年開始我們推的四選三的部分就是四級稻作種三期所以我們盡量的把那個稻作面積往下降的時候所以公糧收購數量才會往下降是理由之一所以我要講一下狀態就是以我們現在每一年還有74億75億用在"},{"start":6449.596,"end":6457.775,"text":"對地綠色環境給付這個地方要轉做這個部分坦白說我看到這個部分按照你們之前提出來的預算"},{"start":6459.963,"end":6488.962,"text":"每公斤上漲5塊錢的預算大概只增加14.46億你們原本提出來預算本來就有一個公糧收購預算再加14.46億就可以達到就是112年的標準如果按照109年的高標準來說的時候是增加27.30億其實坦白說對於整個明年你們所提出來的總預算當中的時候增加其實都非常的有限所以我覺得"},{"start":6490.307,"end":6490.549,"text":"感覺上"},{"start":6492.455,"end":6520.141,"text":"公糧收購價格,農業部不願意提高我覺得已經不是很直接是一個農業上面的問題而變成一個政治上的問題所以剛剛為什麼很多委員提到說整個立法院裡面113席委員通過的一個決議你們都不願意遵守我跟委員報告我們我們剛才您所提的一些包括環境基本幾乎對地預設幾乎其實都是在希望水稻的面積不要增加"},{"start":6521.457,"end":6538.115,"text":"當我們用很多的力量去想辦法壓低水稻的面積的時候我另一方面如果提高公糧價格的時候就會造成我過往的所有的投入效果都不見了部長你提這個部分其實坦白說我是能夠理解聽得進去的"},{"start":6539.136,"end":6540.377,"text":"新竹的部分我們有查到大概二十幾萬各十百千萬次"},{"start":6567.247,"end":6586.06,"text":"大概21萬3千多是其他產業的一個損失OK 這個部分你之後再來跟我報告因為我看到所有資料當中我只是要提高提高提出一個觀點就是說我們在看這個預算我們有一個客觀的標準在看那我沒有坦白說我沒有農民選民的一個壓力"},{"start":6587,"end":6600.448,"text":"所以我在看這個部分我聽得進去你講的東西可是我也看到你提出不合理的狀態你在玩數字遊戲對於整個公糧收購的部分的時候你就是打死不願意去做提出很多的理由可是對我來說我把這個"},{"start":6603.386,"end":6619.794,"text":"對綠對地綠色環境幾乎計畫拿來做個比較你會發現有怎麼樣的不合理如果說部長這邊要做更多的說明就是之後再到本辦公室來做一個細部通訊好不好但我們認為立法院通過的決議行政部門一定要尊重一定要遵守齁"},{"start":6620.794,"end":6620.814,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6657.577,"end":6658.098,"text":"李玉琳委員陳部長"},{"start":6672.244,"end":6690.367,"text":"副部長本席今天特別排了這個議題就是要好好的研究在我們政府在執行政策的時候有自愛難行所有的效益沒有辦法照顧到你這個政策的所有的人手我們必須要研議來再修改"},{"start":6690.968,"end":6715.341,"text":"才能夠讓我們的政策能讓大家都能夠受惠這是我們最大的一個努力的方向所以今天必須要討論在討論的時候我請部長先從大的層面來看起不要一直把你的政策嚴格執行下去所以我們立委是嚴格的監督就是要讓你把所有政策能夠執行到最下面好不好"},{"start":6716.121,"end":6738.982,"text":"所以剛剛部長特別講到就是說我們農地有租賃的這個地的價格但是除了這個以外因為地是農民他們從祖先留下來的耕作的農地是不會改變的我們不去計算這個價格但是現在為什麼要公糧調整就是生產的成本它有哪些成本呢"},{"start":6740.222,"end":6757.908,"text":"肥料、農藥、央苗還有待耕的機器還有最重要的是這個央苗不能用機器化一定要人來做一個央苗的培育才有辦法而且工資又被調整了現在從日薪從1500條高到2000元割稻機也漲到30幾萬在這種種的情形之下"},{"start":6765.58,"end":6786.52,"text":"老公基本工資調了豬肉價格調了雞蛋價格調了中油的價格調了台電雖然虧損但是他也調了為什麼公糧13年不能調就是不能調你剛剛所講的因為供過於求"},{"start":6788.223,"end":6801.755,"text":"因為你的稻穀盛產所以你要控制那本席想請問你休耕一年兩期你現在休耕一年幾期以前是兩期現在呢一期"},{"start":6802.862,"end":6819.692,"text":"為什麼?你鼓勵耕作那你鼓勵耕作的話你要轉做你的123政策本席也支持照顧農民的權益本席支持因為農民是最辛苦的你剛剛特別計算到半年的時間他們的收成成本扣掉後收入6萬塊7萬塊現在基本工資多少錢?"},{"start":6828.393,"end":6845.664,"text":"半年時間6個月他一個月平均下來多少錢將心比心做到部長這個位置農業部你有苦民所苦嗎道民這麼辛苦座長的時候陳吉仲說讓農民賺一點點嘛淡商有淡荒的時候淡的價格調弄多少錢"},{"start":6852.932,"end":6860.497,"text":"我們為了讓全民每天有蛋吃也讓你調了現在道農苦哈哈要求你調整"},{"start":6866.108,"end":6884.877,"text":"現在公糧收購價錢是26塊施糧是多少錢平均21、22塊所以我們反映市場機制希望公糧去帶動著施糧你不希望大家來攪公糧沒有問題現在全國的公糧土地面積24萬到27萬公頃但是部長數字遊戲不是這樣玩的"},{"start":6892.591,"end":6900.604,"text":"你收購公糧的價格不是全部的24、27公頃而是有限量的只有10%"},{"start":6902.236,"end":6922.915,"text":"只有30%這就是你們的大約只有收購7公頃而已這是有限量的你對公糧的收購是有限量的有限量的所以並不是你在27公頃乘以5塊錢就要上百億"},{"start":6923.854,"end":6936.405,"text":"不是這樣計算的你的123政策的時候為什麼只有16.5億而已呢所以部長在你來拜訪我的時候我也請你好好的來計算"},{"start":6937.952,"end":6966.559,"text":"如果你做這個公糧的限量收購目前這樣子收購的話大概20億到22億但是你說周邊要花掉的上百億我也請你把明確的政策做出來但是今天你的報告這一二三政策已經執行十幾年了我們都支持但是一二三政策執行的時候他是照顧了什麼生產環境"},{"start":6969.434,"end":6970.515,"text":"我跟你們報告第一點的部分"},{"start":6990.287,"end":7016.161,"text":"我們現在目前看起來剛才委員說的成本提高但是相對的在這10年來他的產量也提高所以我們算過了就是實際的相對的影響大概是到2%到3%而不是10%這第一個說明第二個說明我們一直希望引導稻農能夠更優質的產品去提高他的售價來支撐他的所得而不是用政府的"},{"start":7017.321,"end":7040.638,"text":"所以有私糧阿現在私糧價格多少錢現在私糧如果是汽桌的話是26到29左右你們給我的資料怎麼不是沒有我找出來要的資料資料都2122而已阿所以你把公糧價格提高就會帶動私糧私糧提高之後的話大家去找私糧而且全部他們生產的私糧會用汽桌的方式在你123政策不抵觸你環座區域"},{"start":7043.36,"end":7043.38,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":7061.01,"end":7061.51,"text":"不是這兩件事情"},{"start":7088.678,"end":7088.919,"text":"現在太多腦農了"},{"start":7098.578,"end":7124.017,"text":"部長你要考慮到現在很多老農年輕人沒有加入那你的休耕又從兩次一年兩次改成一次硬要他們來轉作轉作的話你又要求不能一期的做這個二期又再做這個一期做這個二期要再去轉作別的不管是雜糧還是什麼的但是你知道嗎你會耕田嗎你會耕作嗎你知不知道你要轉作的時候要翻土"},{"start":7124.998,"end":7139.926,"text":"翻土要多大的工人跟成本跟時間啊要翻土去做你翻土再去做的話第二年又再改換所以這個政策有一個在我們這自愛難行的地方本席跟你討論部長你要聽進去"},{"start":7143.164,"end":7156.539,"text":"我非常謝謝那個委員的指正那水岸田輪作其實就是一個非常有效的能夠維持地利的部分然後第二個您剛才講的就是公糧有限制你只要符合資格你就可以來繳公糧"},{"start":7159.082,"end":7160.222,"text":"最重要的是水稻是打電話種水稻的"},{"start":7180.009,"end":7195.058,"text":"我把重要的都告訴你有困難的還有現實面的問題都告訴你請你回去研議一定要落實照顧農民權益好不好會 這個一定我們一定會做到那第二個本期要跟你討論的就是斑斑有鮮奶"},{"start":7196.289,"end":7214.917,"text":"現在斑斑有限來的這個情形在我們桃園來講的話在全國來講幾乎75%都轉做這個薄酒爐的那你要照顧的弱農有照顧到嗎還是去照顧女性來為他們先把路鋪好來未來他們進來的時候可以空開的使用薄酒爐"},{"start":7215.757,"end":7244.136,"text":"我跟委員報告齁現在全台灣國產的生乳大概是47.2到48萬噸然後學童營養用的乳量大概是2萬噸左右所以不管是鮮乳跟薄酒乳他都同樣能夠照顧到我們的肉農第一點那第二點就是鮮乳本身保存不易就是生產段他都會用冷卻的方式你當時在執行這個政策的時候你會想到鮮奶保存不易那學校沒有這麼多的冷藏的冰櫃所以"},{"start":7245.517,"end":7246.918,"text":"可是切的量太大了那提升也來不及了"},{"start":7270.014,"end":7274.035,"text":"部長你如果了解問題冷藏需要冷藏沒有這個設備還有我們的量我們鮮奶的量不足的話那可不可以說我們發行鮮奶券讓他們直接到超商去兌換"},{"start":7293.168,"end":7296.951,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們未來如果新推出的一個新的方案"},{"start":7308.599,"end":7312.44,"text":"最重要的是要照顧我們本土的酪農所以未來如果紐西蘭的那個保酒爐長效爐進來的時候因為我們是要補助給酪農對不對"},{"start":7330.885,"end":7334.446,"text":"對,我們有一個方案我們有一個方案去協助對,我們所有的乳品的部分一定是一定要百分之百國產的然後第二個就是"},{"start":7347.532,"end":7347.832,"text":"希望趕快解決這問題"},{"start":7374.173,"end":7375.234,"text":"這個學期我們會針對已經訂單的部分我們會盡量去確保他的學童能夠喝到牛奶"},{"start":7383.294,"end":7412.211,"text":"我想我們不是只針對鮮乳去做演藝我們剛才說的我們的目標就是下一屆如果要再繼續推的話一定讓學校不然現在大家都又喝飽酒乳了啊不我們會再去溝通齁就是如果能夠第一個把鮮乳跟飽酒乳現在的那個比例能夠做適當的溝通可是不只要在這邊保證他們是一週喝兩次你不會量少的時候改成一週喝一次喔不能改喔沒有我們持續的會跟乳廠去做一個溝通增加產能"},{"start":7412.831,"end":7412.851,"text":"請陳部長"},{"start":7442.745,"end":7464.247,"text":"委員 部長好 延續一下剛剛班班有先入的政策我想要請教一下第一個問題是前幾天我們卓院長也說當初推這個政策的時候有點太倉促然後沒有思慮欠舟那就開始有校長學校的國中小的校長開始擔心是不是要轉向是不是要取消這個政策我想要請教一下會持續執行嗎"},{"start":7465.402,"end":7468.625,"text":"反映部長我知道,但是你後面我一直說未來會持續堅持把這個政策做好嗎?"},{"start":7483.776,"end":7486.739,"text":"部長請問當初這個斑斑有鮮乳的政策是你們農業部發起還是教育部提議的是誰發起的"},{"start":7507.56,"end":7525.286,"text":"我想在一開始的時候大概是兩年多前就開始有這樣子一個規劃那在規劃的過程中我們是針對酪農產業特別是國產的應該是我們跟我們有一些想法在跟教育部溝通跟教育部一起溝通一起努力執行那剛剛為什麼又說他其實影響不大"},{"start":7533.018,"end":7535.961,"text":"這兩個事情就是說有些人外界來批評說我們是為了去化而把這個牛奶送到學校"},{"start":7556.94,"end":7577.239,"text":"好那沒關係沒關係那我們現在知道了就是基本上我們也認同就是輔導我們國內的酪農產業但是喔鮮乳的生產排程至少要一年但是你們想要在這個短短兩三個月內完成結果就陷入這個冷氣房政策不僅沒有加匯到這個酪農產業反倒是小酪農跟養乳產業先被這個政策弄死部長"},{"start":7578.499,"end":7599.95,"text":"這個農業部是真的要輔導保護弱農產業嗎?因為包含我們的這個弱農這個協會理事長也表示依照嘉義開辦這個類似政策15年的經驗總結先乳行前一瓶是18元但農業部的保酒乳你們是開每一瓶14元然後先乳每瓶16元那基本上就是中央訂定的價格實在太低了"},{"start":7600.43,"end":7618.47,"text":"考量到這個飼料、牧草、冷鏈運輸成本等等他們認為每瓶鮮乳至少要19元才算合格所以現在看起來不僅是沒有配套除了那個什麼冷鏈的問題啦等等的沒有配套之外從一開始招聘、招標的價格就不合理是不是可以請我們農業部和交易部一併檢討這個部分"},{"start":7619.571,"end":7640.284,"text":"我想後續的政策在推動的時候我們包括價格包括配中的方式包括方式我們都會統一的來做一個好的完整所以我要提議這個部分就是請你們回去檢討之外其實我們國人的這個乳糖苦耐症比例高達88%所以其實也可以輔導像有一些產品是不含乳糖的這種乳品所以這部分是可以思考還有剛剛的這個牛奶兌換券請你們"},{"start":7642.385,"end":7659.792,"text":"請你們可以去往這方向思考,配合超商再來我要趕快問一個部長,歐盟在2006年已經全面禁止抗生素作為生長促進,添加於飼料,兼用抗生素是國際趨勢那我國這幾年也有陸續剔除,但是尚有19種抗生素"},{"start":7660.532,"end":7674.78,"text":"那我想這不僅是我國大型經濟動物始終擺脫不了的這個抗生素抗藥性的問題也是我們受這個評鑑分數低的問題請問一下部長我們何時可以跟歐盟一樣全面禁止在飼料中使用抗生素作為促進劑生長促進劑"},{"start":7676.789,"end":7692.772,"text":"我想我們持續針對這些抗生素的部分會有一些品項跟那個部長歐盟在2006年就逐步禁用最後4種飼料用抗生素其中這個復熱酶素跟這個阿美拉酶素"},{"start":7697.574,"end":7713.138,"text":"請教部長,現在我國的這個國家級的防疫液體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫也在7月公布了那其中農業部也是非常重要的角色我國有行動計畫,但是行動目標上面有沒有決心要跟歐盟一樣禁用含抗生素的飼料"},{"start":7715.561,"end":7740.22,"text":"這個部分會跟衛生部來協調那我們一個非常重要的就是我們針對這些抗生素的部分如果說它有人序共通的一些疾病的防止的部分還有一些對於後面有交叉感染的部分我們會做優先在這個部分我們又有一些排序是部長但是在這個行動計畫中其中除了醫院以及用藥的管控之外最重要的就是跟這個農業部的合作但是我們可以看到這個計畫後面的副表"},{"start":7740.76,"end":7746.52,"text":"也就是這個績效指標或是衡量指標還有目標值你們在工作項目中"},{"start":7748.287,"end":7773.794,"text":"發展續勤養殖場抗生素減用策略史我看到的時候我是覺得差點沒有暈倒你們居然沒有要像歐盟一樣全面禁用而是一年拖一年你們這些年度目標其實是非常的緩慢喔我想要請問部長我們國家的標準能到就這麼低嗎?你們是不是可以好好的再去檢討你們定定的這些年度目標究竟有沒有辦法跟上國際趨勢然後以及對我們國人有沒有什麼影響"},{"start":7774.588,"end":7775.068,"text":"請檢討後的報告再給本席辦公室一份,謝謝"},{"start":7809.977,"end":7835.823,"text":"請賴瑞倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長部長辛苦了 部長我先請教一個問題就是說一個政策的成敗的責任最後會由行政機關負起還是由立法機關來負起責任"},{"start":7836.96,"end":7863.963,"text":"我想政策的推動一定是由行政單位來負最後的一個責任所以這件事情最後的成敗以後對成敗是一定是立法機關應該給很多的建議嘛但是最後萬一這個政策是有問題其實都是由行政機關負責是行政機關來負責對所以我覺得這個東西的權責其實要分得清楚啦雖然立法機關會有很多的反映民意反映的一些意見但是最後都會回到行政機關身上那行政機關就最後由你們的整體的考量因為國家的資源有限下那"},{"start":7864.403,"end":7864.723,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7895.003,"end":7914.115,"text":"整個即使你全部聽了立法院的建議最後如果萬一這個政策是失敗的其實負起責任的其實是部長不會是立法委員所以我覺得這件事情還是要回歸聖誕堂我自己也當過局長我很清楚這個分際是很清楚那這個農這個稻米的部分其實大家在努力以很多的策略上的不同"},{"start":7915.592,"end":7927.486,"text":"提高公糧當然是一種選擇的方式但是我看到部長其實比較認可跟支持採用一級二轉3加3的稻米產業方案這個裡面的部長簡單的幾句話來講一下兩者之間的優缺好不好"},{"start":7931.511,"end":7949.758,"text":"我想我們分三個面向來講其實第一個部分就是當農業部在推動一個政策的時候對一個產業來講我們希望說政策的推動對所有的這個產業的人農民都能夠受益都能夠受益到同時受益到而不是針對特定的族群這是我們在思考的這一點點"},{"start":7950.838,"end":7971.971,"text":"公糧的部分就是特定的 特定的少數整個產業不見得是最好的選擇然後第二個部分就是從經費的角度我們希望說用一個最少的經費能夠發揮最大的一個效益而這個政策不會跟其他的政策有互相干渴的部分也就是說發錢不見得是最好的方式用這些錢去運"},{"start":7972.731,"end":7980.883,"text":"去運用它而讓它能夠提升更好的一些產值反倒或者是提升更好的效益反倒會有更好的效果然後第三個部分也是最重要就是說"},{"start":7982.25,"end":8003.007,"text":"我們在考慮的就是當我用政府的資源投入在一些某一個產業的特定的族群的時候對其他的產業會相對的會受到一些經費的一個排擠那特別是我們現在推動了很多包括對地綠色幾乎很多都是希望能夠降低造作面積已經推動了很多而且逐步有些成效"},{"start":8003.467,"end":8031.403,"text":"如果現在公糧在提高的時候會把過去的這些努力全部化為烏有那又重新來過所以部裡面的考量其實希望對於整體的道路甚至整體的農業的產業是整體有效益的在投入資源下是正面的效益的對好那我順著接下來請問其實台灣有些米也還不錯啦就是這個反倒是未來我認為像有些就不一定會繳交公糧有些地方的米不知道阿爸舉一下哪些地方你沒有繳交公糧的"},{"start":8033.049,"end":8034.03,"text":"我的意思說其實應該更鼓勵更多用這樣的方式"},{"start":8057.887,"end":8058.267,"text":"反倒會影響到"},{"start":8080.365,"end":8102.914,"text":"農業部除了既有的公糧裝應該要花更大的力氣在於好米的部分的怎麼樣讓他種出更多好米鼓勵更多好米的產生而不是反倒是逆向的循環對這是我們在推動一極二轉生態戰的一個政策第一個就是讓農民引導他種植品質然後第二個部分就是後面的外銷的部分我們也會做一些品牌的行銷的宣導跟他們的支持"},{"start":8103.574,"end":8126.955,"text":"這個也請部理院把規劃也再送給我們好不好把你們的規劃接下來的一年三年你們未來的規劃方向我認為這個其實都蠻重要的特別是看到其實日本的現在稻米的裝它其實現在有點不夠供應量不太夠的時候反倒是我們的稻米如果能夠有更好的稻米其實有機會更多的市場我跟委員報告上個月我到日本的時候就跟貿易商就跟一些那邊的"},{"start":8127.435,"end":8145.876,"text":"通路已經談過了他們大概明年1月會來那其實其中的一個品項當然很多農產品比較其中一個品項就是米的部分那我們想趁這個機會把我們的U值的米能夠有機會銷到日本去因為以前日本米甚至是國內米還要銷到國外去那現在它量不夠的狀況下其實這個都是台灣米的一個機會"},{"start":8148.058,"end":8162.268,"text":"品牌拉得更好品質拉得更好我們就有機會我們在衝的是值而不是在衝量我覺得這個是比較有意義的那再來是雜糧的部分其實也是很重要的嘛我們也希望未來這塊雜糧的部分部裡面也持續來加強來推動"},{"start":8164.089,"end":8192.669,"text":"會,我想我們在二轉的部分其實就是有一些不中到的獎勵就希望他們不中到然後轉到雜糧那提高雜糧以後我們的自給率就會提升對我們糧食安全也會有確保這個我想我們會繼續來對,就是雜糧我們現在的是需求大於供給的啦是在這種狀況下的時候其實引導如果農民往這個方向的話其實他的收益會來得更好是而不是去中的到然後用供糧這個部分反倒不見得是最好的選擇是所以我希望"},{"start":8193.889,"end":8210.315,"text":"農業部持續的溝通啊,持續的能夠...對,我們會在這裡溝通好,那再來我要講其實要把握一點時間齁,前陣漁港其實很重要的一個建設啦齁,那但是我看了一下整個這個進度齁,多功能水產品的運銷中心的整個進度落後了41點多部長為什麼落後這麼多?"},{"start":8214.195,"end":8236.998,"text":"我想這個部分國度組在執行的話,我想我們也會要求國度組在這個部分能夠把過去落後的進度能夠趕上,因為這個部分是大家所期待的。那相對的我們有一些部分包括漁港的那個深度碼頭的部分都在做了,現在最重要的就是一個運銷的加工這個中心,這個中心完了以後就能夠串接整個部分。"},{"start":8238.319,"end":8260.094,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":8260.414,"end":8283.272,"text":"那個跟委員報告這個我們已經擬好一個照商文件跟財政部溝通過看過了那我們這個禮拜會在臺北跟高雄辦理照商說明會也要積極邀請潛在廠商來參與謝謝部長這個可能要請還是要持續的邀請我講過很多次這個若你邀請到的是夠大的"},{"start":8283.812,"end":8287.013,"text":"我希望說讓國內的大的而有能力的廠商能夠有意願來來參與這樣的一個計畫我也認為就是說一個一個一個營運經營主體一定選擇非常重要"},{"start":8303.719,"end":8325.808,"text":"選擇得對的話後續就會非常順利如果說選擇不對的時候可能造成後續不好的一個面向發展這個部分我想特別努力因為你選擇好的光他自己可能就很在乎他的品牌了啦他不會輕易砸掉自己的招牌嘛所以他也會很認真但是他進來他一定會經過很多的評估包括他的投資能不能達到他的效益所以我也希望我知道年限有做了一些放寬我也希望這是個長遠的計畫"},{"start":8327.448,"end":8327.628,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8369.155,"end":8369.514,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8684.086,"end":8684.266,"text":"主席"},{"start":8714.153,"end":8740.894,"text":"我想請問一下現在我們斑斑有鮮乳這個問題要怎麼解決啊那個我們知道目前從過去以來我們的消費市場就是我們乳品的消費市場鮮乳占85%保酒乳占15%國內的乳品是有足夠的供應量供給就是斑斑有鮮乳這個政策是不是"},{"start":8741.713,"end":8742.394,"text":"那我想請問什麼時候可以?"},{"start":8766.209,"end":8776.429,"text":"我想我們針對分兩個部分一個部分就是已經接受已經下定完成的部分我們會盡量協調爐廠在爐品的分配讓他能夠"},{"start":8778.208,"end":8778.528,"text":"那什麼時候可以?"},{"start":8802.212,"end":8821.241,"text":"現在已經在做了現在學校下訂的這個情況應該都已經決定了嗎現在大概有19個縣市完成的下訂還有3個縣市是還沒有完成下訂的部分那19個縣市的部分應該可以馬上就是來溝通協調了吧對我們現在已經啟動了現在我們有一個專案小組在做這樣的一個協助協助爐廠因為過去的爐廠"},{"start":8827.944,"end":8828.965,"text":"請問八月三十號開學現在已經第二個月了"},{"start":8861.588,"end":8875.299,"text":"我們本身我們的目標就是讓我們的學校盡量能夠很快速的喝得到所以很重要一點就是我們希望爐廠的產能能夠提高然後相對的他在配送的時候能夠比較均勻的配送"},{"start":8875.819,"end":8903.971,"text":"而不是說先定的齁先完全百分之百滿足了以後才去做其他的這樣的話造成有的學校喝得到有的學校喝不到我們會來努力我特別點名畜牧師長李一千他是新任的畜牧師長是不是是我要點名為什麼你知道大家飽酒我喝不到該喝鮮乳你知道在那個乳品的供應的那個契約裡面"},{"start":8905.987,"end":8933.451,"text":"那個我們鮮乳的價格是多少?14加2嘛,對不對?那保酒乳呢?14塊那14塊,大家為什麼要訂保酒乳?就是因為價格的問題嘛,我們補助的就只有14塊嘛,是不是?是那這樣子的情況下,是不是學校當然會優先的採用保酒乳,是不是?"},{"start":8934.352,"end":8952.729,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們以後給他回答給他回答你來解釋一下李謙市長是報告委員那個鮮乳14塊加2保酒乳14塊這個都是由我們農業部的預算來支應沒有讓學校出錢我知道那為什麼他要訂保酒乳"},{"start":8953.63,"end":8970.494,"text":"就是因為這個預算剛剛好他們可以足夠也可以供給這些學生半半可以喝到鮮乳嘛是不是那你為什麼叫大家半半可以喝到牛奶嘛那你為什麼叫大家如果喝不到飽就改喝鮮乳"},{"start":8970.994,"end":8988.072,"text":"阿錢不夠阿再怎麼樣就知道錢不夠阿是不是我跟委員報告齁就是我們基本上會尊重學校對於保救乳或鮮乳的一個選擇那本身我們的預算是足夠的預算是足夠的不是說因為預算不夠而讓"},{"start":8988.933,"end":8988.953,"text":"好"},{"start":9006.676,"end":9034.825,"text":"我要再看一下喔你看一下這是我們目前稻米的出口統計為什麼大家希望農民希望公糧的價格可以提高為什麼現在生產成本提高嘛那我們過去農委會的政策是希望可以增加出口嘛是不是是那你看到稻米出口的統計"},{"start":9036.085,"end":9055.574,"text":"這是日稻米出口的統計是從過去以來109年出口是超過進口可是近年來並沒有大幅度的上升是不是我跟委員報告大概有幾個原因第一個原因就是"},{"start":9056.374,"end":9081.739,"text":"我們剛剛前幾年剛好在疫情期間他的出口比較不易第二個部分就是也是一直我個人希望一直去推動的就是我希望我們生產的是優質的好米那這樣的話我更能夠利用品牌的方式去推到一些高端的市場那這樣的話才能夠讓農民的收益能夠提高那繳公糧的部分大概都是只是重量不重值的部分那繳公糧的部分我們有兩個部分一個部分是"},{"start":9082.74,"end":9109.583,"text":"針對一些落後地區的我們配合外交部去提供這些原住民的部分大概一年大概2.2萬噸那其他的部分我想我們因為他的品質不是那麼好所以相對的國內的這些加工使用的話量就比較低所以最重要的根本就是希望農民能夠種植比較優良的米以後那不管是國內的供應或外交的部分那基本上他的面向就會比較大"},{"start":9110.788,"end":9139.711,"text":"所以可是以目前來看為什麼農民現在急著希望公糧的價格升高就是因為過去幾年來不管不管你說要用品牌的出口讓他能夠價格高漲但是在整個時機上面就是沒有成績阿是不是我跟委員報告齁如果說我們去仿視這些稻農的部分當你仿視到純粹講公糧的他當然希望公糧提高因為"},{"start":9140.452,"end":9141.012,"text":"好 你不要浪費我的時間 你說"},{"start":9167.409,"end":9189.631,"text":"到底什麼時候我們稻米的出口產值可以增加我們的價值可以增加什麼時候這是你農委會農業部部長應該要負擔的責任嘛你們提出你們的目標嘛你說啊什麼時候我們出口"},{"start":9190.913,"end":9193.734,"text":"我剛才也說了就是說其實上個月我到日本去的時候就有接到一些"},{"start":9213.999,"end":9214.599,"text":"你跟我講什麼時候啦?"},{"start":9225.759,"end":9237.404,"text":"你給我保證什麼時候啦?我們出口會增加啦!你給我保證啦!你不要!你不要提高公糧收購的價格!你給我保證什麼時候!我們出口會增加啦!會真正的增加農民的收入啦!你給我保證啦!"},{"start":9252.03,"end":9278.843,"text":"我想明年的部分我想出口一定會增加這個是一定確認只是那個量的部分我們還要去跟我們的不同國家的同路去討論另外一個是很多國家的米的進口是有配額的部分所以相對的他必須要取得配額以後才能來進出口的部分這個也會努力好我最後有個問題啊不要浪費我的時間我就向你保證而已嘛你要保證啊我想要知道現在我們去年的時候"},{"start":9280.307,"end":9280.447,"text":"下一張．"},{"start":9301.827,"end":9318.393,"text":"一次一次的專案進口3萬隻的總母雞進來雖然他沒有辦法解決燃煤之急有可能呢有可能他預估就是在今年2024跟2025年我們的雞蛋產量會大幅度的上升導致現在我們面臨到雞蛋價格產地價格大幅度的下跌對不對"},{"start":9328.294,"end":9352.687,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實要穩定雞蛋的產銷業者跟我們農業部都有責任也是共同的目標那業者的部分我們每一個禮拜都有提供相關的資訊那業者就應該根據這個資訊做相關的自主的管理包括總機他就必須要去淘汰而不是放任總機持續的變成蛋凍機然後蛋機廠他持續的不去做一個優化去調節而讓雞蛋繼續生產出來"},{"start":9355.669,"end":9358.471,"text":"因為要根據供需 那農業部的部分我們會怎麼樣子 怎麼樣子調節現在的種機我問你現在 氧氣協會說希望農業部可以補助淘汰種機但是現在淘汰種機會不會明年我們又變成雞蛋 沒有了 會不會"},{"start":9378.643,"end":9379.343,"text":"農業部長 陳部長 你要怎麼解決這個問題啊"},{"start":9403.898,"end":9427.373,"text":"你現在說不要希望他們自主那到時候他們自主淘汰太多明年會不會產生我們又缺蛋的問題阿你們又要去進口雞蛋阿會不會我們每個月基本上我們都提供了很完整的資訊包括總雞、蛋中雞跟淘汰母雞的整個數量那業者"},{"start":9429.514,"end":9429.914,"text":"陳婷菲委員質詢"},{"start":9457.5,"end":9458.2,"text":"農民的感受不到"},{"start":9482.486,"end":9504.741,"text":"我們已經花了那麼多的資源包括我們從所謂的一個轉作然後在一些相關的農業環境基本的給付然後轉作的獎勵甚至農業保險甚至是我們一些相關的這些保價收購的一個部分"},{"start":9505.595,"end":9522.684,"text":"我們做了很多但是農民為什麼感受不到還是認為說你就是要公糧提高收購價然後讓有些人一直喊這樣的口號喊得好像我們沒有家的人就是因為不照顧農民"},{"start":9524.11,"end":9547.456,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們不管在我們的政策推出來之前跟之後現在我們大概從上個月開始我們已經開了20幾場的說明會大部分的農民是支持我們這樣的一個做法但是還是這聲音沒有出來啊你說農民支持你這個說法這聲音很小欸可是我相信如果你用民調的話"},{"start":9552.487,"end":9569.189,"text":"這些所謂支持要提高公糧收購價格的人聲音會比較大為什麼我想基本上用政府的經費去支持農民的收益直接的收益的話我想每個人都拍拍手"},{"start":9570.725,"end":9595.174,"text":"但是只有少部分而已如果說今天是用全民調的部分就是包括其他的產業的部分那以我們對產業的瞭解跟認識所謂的少部分是多少人真正有在交公糧的不論是全部交公糧大概有12萬人我想稻農大概有22.5萬人那12萬人是有繳跟公糧有來往的部分那其中2.2萬是純粹繳公糧的部分"},{"start":9597.435,"end":9620.066,"text":"那相對的我們現在目前主要的主力的從事農業的大概是48.6萬到9萬48.9萬之間那相對的其他的產業包括我們了解的雜糧的產業他們就覺得說如果只照顧稻農他們覺得很不服氣因為他們也是很努力的為這邊土地付出去生產一些糧食安全所"},{"start":9620.826,"end":9621.186,"text":"所以部長今天"},{"start":9642.403,"end":9661.282,"text":"我剛剛講的一個關鍵是我們做了這麼多可是為什麼農民的感受都沒有那麼的深就像你講的今天大家如果增加整個收購價大家會拍拍手可是拍拍手的可能是"},{"start":9662.811,"end":9665.332,"text":"其實我們也應該有一個所謂調整機制滾動式檢討的機制"},{"start":9687.932,"end":9709.425,"text":"所以我同意也認同那個委員所說的就是說我們對於現在 花卉也是啊 對不對滾動式檢討啊我們應該提出我們不一定說一次要這個拉高多高可是我們應該對於所謂產業面我們要滾動式檢討就像我之前在我們農損的部分"},{"start":9710.465,"end":9718.871,"text":"要求部長滾動式檢討一樣在我們整個全面的一些收購價格各種農作物的品項"},{"start":9720.487,"end":9738.966,"text":"是不是也都應該去做滾動式的檢討是我想跟委員報告我想我們會要看品項有的品項是純粹是市長機制的就是市長機制那有些品項是政府有一些參與一些配套的部分那這個部分不只是倒座的部分其他的品項我想我們也會來做一個滾動的檢討我想持續的檢討才能夠"},{"start":9742.899,"end":9771.542,"text":"所以部長我們應該跟農民說在這個公糧收購的部分我們會隨時滾動式檢討對不對?滾動式檢討就是隨著現在市面上的狀況跟所有我們生產的量我們隨時去做滾動式檢討而且不只是我們的稻米我們是針對所有農民各品項都是一樣"},{"start":9772.915,"end":9796.705,"text":"如果說可以針對單品項各品項有一個機制叫滾動式檢討那麼大家會比較心安道座也是公糧也是也就是這一次會被提出來是很久沒條件了大家覺得很久沒條件了那我們不要說一下子訂到五塊錢我們訂一個是隨時每年滾動式檢討"},{"start":9800.563,"end":9802.984,"text":"因為我們明明做很多對於農業的保護對於農業的支持對於農民的照顧我們民進黨做的太多"},{"start":9828.496,"end":9845.89,"text":"而且比起過去的標準是多很多關我們的農損包括我們的植栽包括我們的農健保這些過去基本上都要靠農民自己本身但是我們現在用法治去協助他們"},{"start":9847.597,"end":9868.774,"text":"所以在這樣的一個前提之下我們要讓更多人知道不能因為一個公糧的議題好像把民進黨打成說你都沒在關心農民我覺得這樣子好辛苦喔所以表示我們對外所講的講得不清不楚我們立場沒有講清楚"},{"start":9869.642,"end":9892.547,"text":"如果我們今天說的我們已經做了這麼多的投入作業的一個相關經費好我們也願意對於在整個公糧的一個收購我們每年去做滾動式檢討而且不只是到做這個品項而是所有相關的農業支持的品項"},{"start":9894.266,"end":9921.854,"text":"只要他並不是在處於市場機制的一個狀態我們就應該每年去做滾動式檢討謝謝委員我想這個部分我們絕對可以認同也可以接受所以後續我想我們會建立一個機制就是針對一些政府有在投入的這些品項我們做一個有效的一個滾動機制那這個機制會看其他的政策的落實程度去做一個滾動的一個調整"},{"start":9923.424,"end":9939.097,"text":"因為現在物價確實飆漲的比較快而且他會因為國內情勢跟國際情勢所以我們就要有這個擔當跟農民說會我們會依照各方的局勢"},{"start":9940.018,"end":9966.899,"text":"去做滾動式檢討而且在整個所謂保價收購的一個價格當中我們會多面性而且縱觀性去保障到我們農民的收入我覺得我們要有這樣的定調農民才會安心否則只要一句話說一句話就把我們全部前面所做的都打翻了"},{"start":9968.14,"end":9992.878,"text":"這對於公務人員也不公平對於執政政府也不公平可是農民也沒有錯他需要的是一個穩定收入所以我們更應該接近他們瞭解他們的想法穩定收入就是希望有政府來隨時關心他們而不是丟在那 英文都沒聽到"},{"start":9995.225,"end":9995.445,"text":"委員會提醒"},{"start":10011.94,"end":10026.411,"text":"大家也是這樣跟我們說,就是說我們更應該站在執政黨立場,我們提出更有效的、更有用的、更直接的,我不是一道坑要你叼多少,而是我們每年滾動式檢討,負責任的該叼管的叼管呢?"},{"start":10031.274,"end":10031.374,"text":"請紅聲看委員諮詢"},{"start":10073.048,"end":10074.329,"text":"現在主席請陳部長請陳部長來委員好部長好"},{"start":10085.813,"end":10103.442,"text":"這段時間我們討論了蠻多這個農地跟再生能源跟光電之間的這些問題那我們大概理解農業部有農業部在這方面農業為本的想法但我想要跟部長來請教部長你看一下這個照片"},{"start":10104.602,"end":10127.358,"text":"像這樣一個小小的農機巨市喔那其實周遭其實沒有太多的植物因喔那它假如也在一個受光條件好的地方你覺得它適不適合做屋頂光墊我跟委員報告做屋頂光墊本身除了建築物本身所在的屋頂以外它也要考慮到匱限跟它後續的當然這個意思是說匱限都沒有問題啊你覺得適不適合"},{"start":10131.121,"end":10160.434,"text":"我個人覺得如果屋頂型的話他沒有用到地面喔對他沒有用到地面是可以去做這樣的方式可以做這樣的方式嘛對部長這個不知道你知不知道其實像這樣一個農機具市或一個資材市其實他的面積真的不大他經濟效益也沒有很大可是很多農民他其實某個部分他也贊成也支持但目前喔很多的程序現在很多的程序都是卡在農業部不夠積極的作為部長你知不知道這件事情"},{"start":10161.302,"end":10175.775,"text":"我想一個非常重要的問題就是這個農機具本身的面積基地面積是因為他要合法嘛那現在是規定在45平方公尺以下的話是沒有辦法有建造的不然我給你看一下這是今年8月初這是農民喔"},{"start":10176.716,"end":10204.86,"text":"這是你們主管的農民喔 農民來向我們澄清喔他說他自己在民國110年參加農業部農業設施設置屋頂光墊說明媒合會上面宣傳上面是很明確的寫到說農業資材室是有被納入到農業設施屋頂光墊裡面的喔所以這個農民他即便知道自己屋頂的面積很小沒什麼經濟效益但他還是願意自掏腰包來響應政府相關的政策"},{"start":10205.427,"end":10233.664,"text":"但卻被農業部拒絕要求他一定要有建築物的執照或使用或使照所以我們在8月底的時候找了三個部會來我們找了能源署、經濟部能源署也找了國土署也找了農業部都來一起來釐清我們問了能源署能源署說其實能源署說這個建造並不是必要的條件可以有其他文件來去取代"},{"start":10234.81,"end":10258.067,"text":"那國土組說確實農法條例已經排除了45平方公尺以下的建物免申請建造這事情而且特別法是優先於普通法但這個在農業部的法理上面確實看起來那次呈現看起來是需要承擔更多的責任不想所以呢我們當時其實發文要求在8月底的時候我手上這筆"},{"start":10259.543,"end":10286.286,"text":"這公文8月29發出的那我們要求在9月12號以前農業部應該要主動協調但到今天農業部還是沒有作為一場會議都沒有召開也沒有任何公文的含附我們要求9月12號應該要回覆在這公文上面現在10月中了我們問了國土署"},{"start":10287.808,"end":10313.6,"text":"農業部有沒有找你們他說沒有我知道這裡面會有一些建築安全要怎麼去確保的機制上面設計的問題我們都清楚但我要說的事情是第一個農民的需求是誰主管農業部吧那這包括這上面農地上面種種的事情包括他的許可等等等的資材是也是農業部在管的對不對是"},{"start":10315.472,"end":10324.406,"text":"我自己認為到底要用什麼方法來去確保他的安全上面的問題這事情不一定只有一種方法但農業部應該要積極協調去尋找現在我感覺農業部的狀況是雙手一攤啊部長"},{"start":10331.787,"end":10358.375,"text":"我想如果照委員這樣講,違背了我當初520以後,我要求我們農業部一定要用更積極服務的態度去服務農民。那以剛才委員敘述的部分,我覺得就像剛才我們同仁有講說有在做,可是我覺得那個包括時間也太久了。因為有很多是需要跨部會解決的部分,也許你們需要其他部會某些協助或諮詢,這我都同意。"},{"start":10359.295,"end":10366.576,"text":"但是我要再強調一次這是農民的需求是這不是光電廠商的需求是如果是光電廠商的需求我會去找經濟部"},{"start":10367.881,"end":10392.216,"text":"但這是農民的需求,農民想做沒有人逼他,也沒有什麼經濟效益也不是這裡面會有什麼大的圖利,都不會有農民就想做,他的需求在農地上面在農業部主管的資材室上面我覺得農業部應該承擔起主動協調並找到方案的角色,部長你同不同意?我也同意,以農民的角度因為資材是我們農業部所來管的部分,我們應該"},{"start":10393.584,"end":10409.949,"text":"甚至於可以當作主責就是對於可不可以應該當作最後決定的一個單位啦所以這個部分我想我會要求我們相關的單位我想站在這個制裁是幾乎所有都符合你們原本說明跟宣示的原則啊並沒有影響到農業生產啊對也沒有用到農土農地啊"},{"start":10411.092,"end":10413.413,"text":"部長,我願意再給農業部一次時間,一個月的時間,在幾個部會裡面,主動承擔協調處理這件事情的方案"},{"start":10432.924,"end":10460.478,"text":"不一定只要靠只有是建造或始造啦有很多的方式都可以去確認這樣子一個制裁式的安全問題啦是能源署也都會認啦就我問能源署能源署也說他都會認啦所以不一定只有一種方法可是農業部要去協調住這個方法部長沒有問題一個月可以嗎我覺得沒問題就我舉個例子齁就以溫室的部分有沒有我們就可以委託學校變成溫室的強度結構我們都可以去做技師簽證所以像這個部分我覺得一定可以解決啦"},{"start":10461.138,"end":10461.638,"text":"首先謝謝執行"},{"start":10490.256,"end":10493.698,"text":"有請農業部陳部長今天是公糧調高價格的評估跟評審的一個報告但是這個公糧這個報告我首先要請教一個問題"},{"start":10517.082,"end":10538.147,"text":"目前我們的農業保險率覆蓋率是51%你比109年的9%確實增加很多但是這個51%最重要你是從水稻跟支的一個強制保險以後所以要把這裡扣掉你只有17.6"},{"start":10540.097,"end":10567.352,"text":"阿這個保養現在老百姓也不怎麼相信因為你農業保險不一定拿得到保險的一個費用阿在這裡你們今年的10月2號你農業部搞不好火勢依靠修正天然災害救治的辦法你加個稻米在本田中獲取適用天然災害的"},{"start":10569.245,"end":10578.66,"text":"這個類型限縮於農檢控跟兵跑我告訴你 我要怎麼看它 部長你是提到補充公司你講話你沒有提農民講話臺灣的農檢控多不多"},{"start":10587.418,"end":10600.342,"text":"昨天公告已經把水稻這個部分拿掉了,沒有公告,所以沒有這個問題?我現在先跟你說,你除了拿掉好,你又從善如流,你只有規定農前鋒,只有規定兵跑"},{"start":10601.749,"end":10605.03,"text":"我希望你這個公告裡面幫我加一項,鹽水風。你知道新竹到苗栗到台中這個階段,我們叫做酒檢風。"},{"start":10621.417,"end":10630.99,"text":"那如果那個風一撿起來沿水的時候在海邊一掃,那些球啊,那些球啊,差不多都不會滑,都是空爆彈。"},{"start":10632.259,"end":10659.994,"text":"如果你要公告這個：真正有發生的話：我們就是檢視方案你這樣聽到沒有我了解我完全贊成委員的意見就是說現在這條保險已經用我們的農業的保險去支撐了但是針對特定的一些災害他講的齁龍捲風在台灣不容易發生但是巖峰你剛剛講的海邊的巖峰反而機會會比較大那這個部分我想我們"},{"start":10661.255,"end":10689.318,"text":"我上次的委員會我已經承諾齁就是我們天然災害救助每一年年底之前都會檢討完成包括金額包括裡面的不適合的條款我們在第二年的一月份一定會重新公告一次齁所以趁這個在這年底的部分我們把它納入就我們的檢討的一個依據好 這樣算喔 檢視方你一定要幫我納入好不好因為我曉得我當地的農民那個海邊的生態我一清二楚"},{"start":10690.618,"end":10700.424,"text":"好嗎?你光農健康光兵跑就不可能對,我們會納入討論,在我們的專案會議裡面去討論那再來要跟你,請回座討論到公糧的收購這要聽你的報告確實很矛盾你會記得這句話,我看你才不會起來慈禾日當午"},{"start":10715.165,"end":10740.631,"text":"漢堤河下土 再來你跟我說誰知盤中仙盤中孫 利利皆辛苦好 這標示我們做法院農業 農民的辛苦我們以農利共 大家跟農業跟農民都有深厚的感情你今天所謂的評估報告出來我從頭把你抬到尾 我所謂的資料都把你調起來你裡面說"},{"start":10744.225,"end":10761.129,"text":"我請教你一個問題現在農民座一公頃實質的收益大概會有多少?一家棟一家棟一期座6到8萬好業人7到8萬二期座4到6一家一家棟一期座6到8萬二期座是4到6萬我告訴你6到8萬要在台北一車一座就沒有意義了"},{"start":10772.771,"end":10790.085,"text":"所以我現在覺得你這個部長不替農民講話我感覺你是研究資深而且你也是做過農 我覺得你一定會替農民講話我可以報告嗎 水中的收入相對於其他的品項其實他也比較高你不會這樣說 他做的社產就是社產你的報告裡面說集團產區的企作價格每公斤26到29"},{"start":10800.7,"end":10827.143,"text":"高於公糧收購的26年你現在想你從2011年到今年2024年13年你都沒有調整這公糧的收購你是在壓榨農民我給你算我們現在基本工作的調整我們的公務薪水的調整跟著通貨膨脹不然你也要調整一下你竟然一口喝一口我會給你什麼"},{"start":10828.82,"end":10854.066,"text":"一局二轉,三加三,要賠到這麼少的,看來看去又三到五三三我從這些人出身的,你這是糟蹋農民當然你講的也有一些道理,但是基本台灣的物價已經漲了多少你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他的物價,什麼水果什麼那些物價,我聽不進去本來都已經在漲了"},{"start":10856.308,"end":10882.755,"text":"但是你要如何來改進這一些?你一集團,沒有你自己選擇嘛!提高公糧的價格,你們一定要跟集團簽合約,這個是另外一個途徑嘛!你所謂改種優良的、品質的種,你跟我種這個、那個種啊!是什麼樣的改革你叫人家要種?沒有種,我不想跟你收!大家就怪怪的來啊!你捨得這麼多看!"},{"start":10884.793,"end":10886.874,"text":"所以我覺得你們要改變思考的方向"},{"start":10902.173,"end":10929.928,"text":"你現在要給我公糧,不然你給我種什麼品種,你覺得好嗎?不然你就說你要給我參觀集團做,還是安裝來修?這個方式你誰家沒誰人看得到好不好?我講真的啦!所以你這個想法就要蓋啦!你說這樣管到29戶到30戶而已,我怎麼有感受?第一,一家中餐6萬到10萬好不好?"},{"start":10933.614,"end":10940.882,"text":"我是跟你講真的,一家中六萬到九萬一天收兩片,如果各位參六萬到九萬,各位參兩萬一萬好不好?"},{"start":10945.161,"end":10972.206,"text":"這個怎麼過活嘛,那是大家感覺說我這個土地做先勞了,我要好好耕種,不然怕被歐人不孝順,不知道沒什麼事,都是在旁邊要找工作才有增加收入嘛,你都要了解這個情形嘛。不然你從插秧的地方,收割的地方,那些待耕業者拜託他們去跟他們做的地址來講,"},{"start":10973.936,"end":11001.028,"text":"不然你講這些道理不通啊你可以再強制要求嘛我公糧收購就要品質比較好我固定收了多少你30%嘛你這講出來喔農民傻到不傻傻真的我們到哪個地方政治層委員除了農民工業各位知名啊 那個公糧齁十幾年都沒有給我們調整啊你這次要去給我們發聲要調整啊"},{"start":11005.011,"end":11020.884,"text":"跟你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大我希望你在這邊再調整調整一個適當的方案農民要開心不然你農業的設施做了那麼多這開始要改進的所在"},{"start":11023.483,"end":11045.251,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我們其實共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得這是我們一次的目標那現在目前稻作有兩個系統一個是公糧一個是集團契作我們現在我們希望說透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有的稻農那我也必須要去"},{"start":11045.991,"end":11058.299,"text":"去 內部要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法去建立一個機制去做這個調整的一個機制我 裡面報告說有2.24萬公頃只要抽離3%到5%就能把公糧的價格穩定好是產地的價格不是公糧的價格7千公頃到12000公頃你在雜糧的幾十年都沒有調整價格"},{"start":11083.81,"end":11101.222,"text":"這兩個政策是矛盾的齁因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧那雜糧的部分我們包括你如果不種到我已經多了一萬五了有增加的誘因那你一方面如果提高公糧收購的話又會跑過來所以基本上我想我們整體的產業是需要進步的"},{"start":11103.243,"end":11109.831,"text":"現在在半島啊,說到日本半島一塊塊就三千啊,普通是啊"},{"start":11111.144,"end":11119.869,"text":"我跟委員報告農民的所得普遍的比其他的行業還要低這是事實然後我們也希望能夠透過各種方式能夠提高稻農所得我們的農產品的價格也偏低我們也希望透過方式"},{"start":11137.279,"end":11165.672,"text":"不善於種植的到了全部改為國土計劃那個什麼發展區啊城鄉發展區 減掉 你的價格穩定你有好作有準手段不是這行而已你也不要怕那些榮譽民運榮譽團體在講以前國民黨執政榮譽團體看天天抗爭法民黨執政那些榮譽團體我都看不到了我們只是不想講"},{"start":11167.216,"end":11191.274,"text":"你把這些3131萬2千公頃,照你所講的3到5,7千公頃,那不適宜跟這種改為城鄉發展區第一個,把房價低價整個壓低下來,我不知道你這個政府要什麼,要民主,理事又沒有辦法沒有拿出一道妥善的辦法,你要整體討論嘛,不然現在房價那麼貴"},{"start":11193.611,"end":11213.132,"text":"農民感鼓舞,你以為農民啦,大家都在期待捏,我常常講一句話你都沒有感受到。我們的廟裡的三坡地,一公間三層屏,沒有台北的一間廁所,好在的一間廁所,這樣你還跟我說,很悲哀啊,謝謝。"},{"start":11222.067,"end":11251.011,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢。主席、各位委員、有請部長。請陳部長。部長,辛苦了。"},{"start":11253.325,"end":11277.432,"text":"今天的議題是針對立法院的決議提高公糧收購價格的一個專題報告當然你的報告寫得非常的詳細重點就是因為立法院代表民意所做的決議這個國民黨團在今年的5月8號"},{"start":11283.51,"end":11311.983,"text":"提出了這個提案因為基本工資、養苗、物價指數不斷的上漲尤其是基本工資這13年來啊最起碼又調漲了將近10次了所以特別提案公糧收購的價格既然13年都沒有調整應該要調整經過草野協商之後"},{"start":11314.331,"end":11329.342,"text":"113年7月16日立法院院會做討論特別提到我們看一下最後立法院的一個決議各黨團當時無異議對民眾黨團、國民黨團的修正動議通過"},{"start":11343.171,"end":11371,"text":"有意沒有意義各黨團都同意沒有表決所以行政部門農業部就應該要尊重民意尊重立法院所做的決議這個不是表決的是黨團各黨團沒有意義通過的決議"},{"start":11373.066,"end":11399,"text":"院長做了一個財事也就是立法院的決議他特別提到109年到現在13年未調帳物價大漲包括人工、肥料、農業資材等各項成本現在也切工,農業也切工啊"},{"start":11400.202,"end":11402.403,"text":"農業部因綜合考量各項成本及物價指數調整公糧收購價格"},{"start":11428.615,"end":11453.841,"text":"由每公斤26元調整至每公斤31元原來的提案是34後來大家協商之後31所以這個部分我看一下原來的提案34原來提案是34所以後來立法院所做的決議"},{"start":11457.112,"end":11480.18,"text":"26條整是每公斤31塊是這樣的一個決議當然你今天的報告寫得非常詳細也都有理由啦但是重點就是畢竟是立法院代表前台灣人民的民意所做的一個決議"},{"start":11481.832,"end":11507.226,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情形之下包括相關的附帶決議都是無意通過好回到你的報告公糧價格自63年起到113年歷經12次調升收購價格最近一次就是100年嘛100年現在113年所以是已經13年"},{"start":11509.855,"end":11529.04,"text":"好你這個報告裡面一直強調過去你的那個說明也是一樣一直強調會增加會增加種稻的一個面積如果我們看這個面積99年稻作面積24.4萬公頃100年25.4提高3塊3塊"},{"start":11539.141,"end":11545.766,"text":"也沒有增加多少啊兩公兩萬公頃對不對一直到現在還是還比以前少啊現在是112年去年22.2萬公頃所以也沒有增加所以這個部分"},{"start":11564.065,"end":11589.49,"text":"這是一個你們在實際的運作上當然你們有你們的考量我作為這個老公務員也都可以尊重但是畢竟是立法院所做的決議所以在這個部分還是我特別還是要請這個農業部能夠依立法院的決議給予支持"},{"start":11591.311,"end":11619.424,"text":"我跟委員報告我們非常尊重立法院的主決議那在這個主決議之下其實背後的一個精神就是要提高我們的道農所得那我們現在提出了這些一級二轉三加三的政策我們評估的結果是這樣的話才能夠照顧到整體的產業的所有的道農那我剛才也說過了就是公糧的收購它跟現在跟我們的集團產區的一個民糧的收購是並行的"},{"start":11619.924,"end":11619.944,"text":"部長"},{"start":11649.198,"end":11675.155,"text":"你提你今天的報告如類的非常詳細了尤其是今天一直在調123那個叫什麼方案一級二轉三加三這個方案你提了在這邊也提了很多次了我在這個這個電視上也看了聽了不影響你去推動這個方案三個方案你繼續去推動"},{"start":11677.008,"end":11705.32,"text":"如果推動的非常非常的棒非常非常的有成效這個人民就說這個不用了大家也不用去照例所以這個部分可以雙管齊下並同進行第一個就是要依立法院的決議來執行第二個"},{"start":11706.636,"end":11735.312,"text":"你原來要做的你現在要打算做的繼續做可以同時進行啊我跟委員報告齁就是公糧提高五塊跟我們現在推的它政策上本質上我也有一些矛盾特別是在我們在一級二轉裡面特別是二轉的部分我們希望說一些倒坐同樣是農民的收益我希望說他能夠轉成漢做以後得到我們的那個不中道獎勵以後提高他的所得那如果說公糧"},{"start":11736.152,"end":11737.133,"text":"我給你一個方向農業部一個方向民國100年12月5號"},{"start":11763.963,"end":11791.673,"text":"12月5號行政院來航給立法院為什麼會來航給立法院呢在100年12月的3號3號立法院做了一個決議做了什麼決議第一個因為老人農民津貼暫行條例修正了要增加老農津貼"},{"start":11793.24,"end":11819.497,"text":"第二個國民年金法也修正了要增加沒有修正的沒有法律法源的也併同這個決議併同譬如說老農的林農津貼等等包括農業部的有幾個也併同修正沒有法律的議題一樣照立法院的決議"},{"start":11820.706,"end":11848.86,"text":"行政院怎麼做呢12月3號立法院決議100年12月5號啊行政院就報了一個修正中央政府101年度的總預算三天之內啊就修正立法院行政院已經送到8月底送到"},{"start":11850.804,"end":11877.384,"text":"一百年八月三十一號以前送到立法院的一百一十一百零一年度的總預算修正喔增加多少增加很多光農業部啊就增加了七億多啊總共包括內政部、人民會總共修正增加了什麼一百六十三億六千七百萬"},{"start":11879.295,"end":11880.035,"text":"請陳冠廷委員質詢您好,我們請部長請陳部長"},{"start":11913.116,"end":11931.392,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長 農業部從108年試辦開放800多人的這個農業外籍工那到112年6月中旬是開放到1.2萬人那目前大概已經有引進8500多人 7成依據今年大概年底就會把這個擴大用完"},{"start":11931.932,"end":11951.743,"text":"那我看部長上次答詢的時候有說農業部跟勞動部爭取增加8000人讓外揚總數可以到2萬人我想請問目前爭取的結果如何?已經通過了那這個是一個很重要的一個福音要分享給我們這也是委員一直在協助我們爭取的"},{"start":11953.044,"end":11972.882,"text":"另外一個部分就是這個部分我們是非常肯定的第二部分要請教就是說農業移工首先是執行單位那我們地方的農會有在跟我們反映就是說現在中央是由農業部輔導師農業人力發展科交給地方農會來執行但是許多地方農會卻抗拒於這件事情"},{"start":11973.382,"end":11984.937,"text":"他說首先是第一個能力不足的問題第二個就是農會不會管理這種移工的部分所以如果移工他如果逃逸的話農會還會被罰錢他們是表達說有點吃力不討好這個問題你覺得該去怎麼樣解決"},{"start":11990.123,"end":12017.199,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是我們也感謝農會的一個協助來執行那我們在農會在有意願去處理這個我們會有個專案的講習跟輔導的部分因為外籍移工一定要有管理不能說他不是直接到家庭去的所以我們一定要找到一個中間的一個管理單位以現在農會跟農民的接觸的關係他是一個相對比較好的一個選擇"},{"start":12018.3,"end":12046.587,"text":"那至於說農會本身如果遇到什麼樣的困難的部分我想我們農業部一定會積極的去協助那幾個農會總幹事有向我反映他們是建議說農業移工大部分是從事農糧的工作那是不是可以讓由北中南東四個分署的農糧署來去承擔這個移工的相關的業務這是他們的建議或者是用其他的相關的這個大家農業部來思考一下找其他法人等等來去做這樣子的服務"},{"start":12047.327,"end":12065.585,"text":"不知道部長你怎麼看這件事我想公部門只能做受理的單位我們不能直接參與移工的管理所以除了農會以外我想我們也會積極的去看看有沒有什麼樣子的一個農民團體法人還是有什麼其他的方式來去想一下好不好這個東西我想我們會再來研議除了農會以外"},{"start":12067.086,"end":12090.995,"text":"再也就是農業移工的申請資格這部分有很多農民朋友來表達他是說像我們阿里山有很多茶園那他們需要茶工但是目前申請移工的面積是兩公頃以上那低於兩公頃或者是中間混有果樹的就不能申請這個部分農業部有沒有可能把申請面積調降到一公頃或者是說除了茶園面積之外雜糧面積10公頃以外"},{"start":12092.776,"end":12092.916,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12119.468,"end":12127.331,"text":"謝謝部長 這個很重要那最後就是關於水稻的捲葉蟲的部分那現在是二期到期間嘛那農友是很深受這個捲葉蟲的這個困擾"},{"start":12154.265,"end":12166.279,"text":"現在農民是朋友是來跟我們反映他說現在是初步啦初估現在的稻葉損害率是20%到70%左右是相當的嚴重所以如果可以的話部長我希望說農業部可以找時間"},{"start":12167.421,"end":12168.702,"text":"這部分是不是可以請農業部來做簡單的這個回應?"},{"start":12185.249,"end":12207.071,"text":"我跟委員報告就是水稻的部分因為它的基本性已經加入農業保險那農業保險不管你什麼原因我們就會只要超過20%我們就會去做一些理賠的部分那你剛才講的捲葉蟲就是野柳鳴的部分它是隨氣流的部分那剛好8月跟10月有颱風"},{"start":12208.933,"end":12209.273,"text":"好 謝謝是可以理賠的好 謝謝"},{"start":12244.571,"end":12249.377,"text":"我們中午不休息 延長到會議結束現在請李坤城委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":12268.03,"end":12287.076,"text":"委員好部長好這個部長我本行是比較關心這個動保法的修正因為在今年五月的時候那時候我在質詢的時候我就說這個動保法的修正案預告已經一年了那希望說我們把動保法早一點送到這個立法院來做審議"},{"start":12288.436,"end":12311.518,"text":"然後在今年6月總諮詢的時候那我也問了這個行政院長當時您站在這個院長的旁邊那我也希望說這個趕快把動保法送到立法院的審議然後呢您當時是比較持肯定的態度就是說今年會送到這個立法院做審議那所以呢這個是在6月11號的"},{"start":12312.839,"end":12331.672,"text":"但是到目前為止好像農業部都還是在預告本席有兩個法案一個是寵物食品安全管理法這已經復委了9月的時候已經復委了一個是經濟委員會做審查然後動保法修正案在明天也會排入院會的報告事項"},{"start":12332.853,"end":12342.768,"text":"除了我之外其實還有很多委員都很關心動保法的修正案那就請教一下部長現在我們的動保法還在預告修正期嗎?從2023年的4月28號開始預告要修正了"},{"start":12349.758,"end":12362.689,"text":"到現在一年半的時間都還在預告嗎沒有沒有我跟委員報告齁就是在去年4月28的時候預告以後那預告以後我們接受到了非常多的外界的不同的意見我知道你們有經驗嘛齁我們一個原則齁就是"},{"start":12363.803,"end":12389.537,"text":"有共識的我們先納入這次的修法如果沒有共識的我們先擱著然後我們現在已經送到行政院在審議當中了那行政院如果審議通過的時候就會送到立法院來所以會在年底之前我想我們的目標就是年底之前會送到立法院來年底之前沒剩多久現在已經十月中旬了我們現在已經送到立法院行政院在做法條的審議了"},{"start":12391.118,"end":12416.669,"text":"那行政院一旦審議通過以後我們就會送到立法院來就會送到立法院來所以已經在布裡面已經送出去了所以你沒有跳票對不對因為那時候六月問你的時候你說今年會送到立法院對所以現在在行政院在行政院的我們已經送出去了對那所以今年能夠送來嗎對我們希望我們也會再跟行政院寫條說儘快能夠列入預選法至少今年先送過來雖然說在審預算當然也不知道有沒有預算可以審但是你們還是要"},{"start":12418.63,"end":12428.442,"text":"按照當時的承諾送過來這是動保法那這個有關寵物食品安全管理法的部分這個你們是9月5號開始預告大概是預告會多久"},{"start":12434.392,"end":12449.16,"text":"預告是60天因為當初我在立法院承諾的時候就是本來我們的寵物食品法是在動保法裡面的一個章節但是那個章節可能沒有辦法涵蓋到我們想要的管理的作為所以我們後來拉成專法"},{"start":12449.68,"end":12471.573,"text":"那專法裡面會從它的原料開始到它的製程到它後面的上市的部分都有一定的查核跟管制的作為那這樣的話會比較完善所以我們預告60天以後我相信也會接到不同各界的意見所以我們也會針對意見的部分來做一些調整以後然後再送到行政院去"},{"start":12472.193,"end":12482.522,"text":"那如果按照時程來講的話預告60天2個月那這個預告結束已經是11月的事情了11月多對然後你們還要再整理再送到行政院"},{"start":12483.882,"end":12506.999,"text":"我想我們在動保法已經有一個遊戲規則就是有共識的我們先處理不要再去溝通因為溝通可能一溝通又是每一條的溝通可能有好幾個月所以有共識的我們就先修先去處理完了以後送行政院那這個時候我相信會比較有共識啦能夠盡快的在這個會期那如果按照這樣的話這個重複食品安全管理法"},{"start":12507.839,"end":12530.501,"text":"我們也是如期我們的當初的一個承諾我問你就是說那現在動保法遇到修法上面會比較大的困難點在哪裡動保法是不是動保法其實比較有一點點的爭議的就是我們賦予動保檢查人員的一個就是必要的時候能夠進到私領域的這個部分"},{"start":12531.081,"end":12552.681,"text":"那有一些外界的聲音就會認為就是說他已經變成準司法警司司法的這種警察的一個權利了那可能什麼不一樣在我們部裡面的這個修正法案裡面他是可以進去的對私領域的部分但是我們也不是亂闖民宅啦就是我們還是會根據特別是有一些比較比較比較違法的這種飼養或什麼的時候我們"},{"start":12554.162,"end":12576.735,"text":"以前都是在門口他不開門我們也進不去一定要找警察嘛那現在其實我們跟警察有很好的合作那我們也希望說能夠讓這個法律通過以後然後相對的針對這些動保警察人員能夠在某個條件之下能夠進到私領域的話那對於以後的這種稽查非法的他是動保警察嗎"},{"start":12577.375,"end":12594.662,"text":"他不是動保警察他是動保檢察員所以他只是去查核而已而不是去執行所謂的司法在某一些情況之下他是可以進入到私領域對 我說有一些情況之下能夠進去這樣的話對於我們的稽查的效率會比較高一點"},{"start":12597.564,"end":12614.757,"text":"這個我們還在透過協商,那從法制的角度,就是他不會去干涉到司法警察的原來的權限但是我想我們還會跟外界做持續的溝通,因為這個牽涉到所謂的人權的問題,所以我們會盡最大的努力去做溝通"},{"start":12615.418,"end":12615.458,"text":"人權與動物權"},{"start":12636.66,"end":12664.265,"text":"這個修法就會遇到這個難題那我也希望說在這部分的話看你們怎麼去做處理在某些條件之下這個我想我們會有一些前提的設計因為我看你們的修正條文裡面是有把這一部分擺進去基本上我是支持的那比較重要的是強化事主的責任我覺得這個非常重要現在很多寵物本身特別是寵物的部分會變成流浪犬的部分就是事主本身的一個責任"},{"start":12665.365,"end":12665.585,"text":"請中嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":12703.909,"end":12710.274,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席政務機關長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請農業部陳部長跟農糧署的姚署長"},{"start":12721.27,"end":12744.736,"text":"部長好 署長好 公糧收購調過頭會遭致弊端 百億的預算照顧農民應該農損優先 我們來看一下部長 跟你介紹兩個新聞 官商勾結倒賣公糧 為豬的飼料米流入營養午餐這是在2009年發生的 還有用劣質米換公糧 農會侵占遷入公糧 為什麼我們的公糧買一買怎麼變成飼料米呢"},{"start":12745.509,"end":12767.872,"text":"有沒有覺得有點奇怪公糧真的會變成飼料米阿是不是如果量過多的時候他保存期限以後就變成飼料米好來公糧有時候會超過民糧的價格對不對結果呢在2013年發生我們屏東他低價買入市面的價格買入道股找人頭混充公糧出售後來被判刑啦好就是套利"},{"start":12769.013,"end":12778.319,"text":"為什麼因為我們公糧過剩會轉為飼料米你說的嘛對不對那因為什麼原因會造成公糧過剩收購價格嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":12779.352,"end":12808.63,"text":"所以收購價格會造成兩個問題一個是供過於求必須打入飼料米造成有弊端發生第二個公糧收購價格太高會讓有些人怎麼樣去套利是不是這樣子好我們來看一下前一張馬英九時期呢他調高公糧價格之後民糧的價格下跌了公糧高民糧價格低是不是會套利有可能嘛好往下看所以呢目前馬英九時期他調高了3元面積增加了多少"},{"start":12809.534,"end":12830.86,"text":"大約3萬公頃3萬多公頃那如果我們現在調高到8塊錢有可能會增加到28萬公頃預算需要146億是不是這樣是是沒錯嗎好往下看好那我請問一下國內的農民單一作物最大面積的是什麼是不是稻米稻米是單一作物最大農民是不是都種稻當然不是嘛對那稻農占全體農民比例多少"},{"start":12832.315,"end":12844.874,"text":"道農現在是22萬大概五分之一好那這五分之一的道農當中可以繳公糧的有多少大概一半沒有一半啦我算一算可以繳的不到35%啦"},{"start":12847.445,"end":12871.478,"text":"全部的是不是?對,全部大概三成左右。三成五嘛,對不對?所以說,我們對農民的照顧花那麼多的預算,投入在公糧收購,調過頭了,會有弊端發生。好,往下看。那我們來看一下,那可以繳公糧的農民資格有很多嗎?我們看一下,這麼多、這麼多、這麼多,是不是這樣?在我屏東的,農民有種稻的,多數不能繳公糧。"},{"start":12872.518,"end":12887.297,"text":"那他們期待什麼政府照顧?他們期待政府對他們建做的銅豆甚至有些是種香蕉的要補助、要支持。農業部有沒有照顧這些不是繳公糧的農民,不管他是不是盜農,有沒有要支持?"},{"start":12887.757,"end":12909.889,"text":"我們還是用另外的方式去支持我們所有產業的農民,這是我們的責任所以這次山河颱風,農損將近4億,屏東六層最傷,其中香蕉上次我還要問你,現在電蓋開尾順帝有請九十個,現在還在請嗎?你說你要考慮條件一下,多年期的長年期都入,你們要考慮,有沒有?是修訂了怎麼樣了?"},{"start":12910.689,"end":12934.12,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,現在我們其實昨天我們也在開會,那還沒有定論齁,就是針對跨年的齁,多年期的這些作物齁,本身齁,現在是以歷年制嘛齁,我們未來會考慮是以產期的制度,然後再加一些但書,如果說這個跨年的部分,如果遇到一些特殊的情況之下,可以再給予救助,這個部分我想我們還會再做進一步的,對"},{"start":12936.061,"end":12960.391,"text":"好 來 我們看一下 如果是147億 我們來看看農業部147億可以怎麼用農天水利編50億 自然防火變成45億 能源還有明年要再16億防患豬瘟 還有農發基金29億 電價差的補助24億我看每一項 它的優先順位都不亞於去支持一個有限的可以繳公糧的稻農的稻谷收購 你同不同意"},{"start":12961.471,"end":12981.392,"text":"我想我們也是這樣的一個想法去支持所有的農民是的所以我覺得萬事莫如舊災及這是農作天然災保險覆蓋率低嘛所以我希望我希望你們接下來的施政重點我當然知道每個委員有各自的重點但是我這樣講完很清楚我們政府照顧農民對不對"},{"start":12983.013,"end":13008.352,"text":"這是我們的責任是,農民不是只有稻農對不對是稻農不是全部都可以繳公糧而且繳公糧的是少數對不對對所以我們這麼多147的資源是把優先來照顧這些需要幫助的農民同意同意好往下看所以結合是我們農業災害的天然保險的扣抵強制險之外到113年的7月覆蓋率只有17%怎麼樣提高怎麼改善"},{"start":13010.399,"end":13022.856,"text":"我想整個農業的保險扣掉那個強制性的大概17左右那一個非常重要的就是它產量的一個基準的一個依據所以我已經要求我們的農經署做全面的一個檢討"},{"start":13024.707,"end":13053.508,"text":"我不要說隨便開一個保單然後保護只有一兩個而已所以我希望說他真正的能夠降低農民的經營的風險我們以這個目標很好所以請研議最後的結論請研議提升不含強制性的農作物天然災害保險提升他的整理覆蓋的方案一個月提書面報告可以嗎可以我們可以提出來那請這個書面報告請你們的農金署的署長跟你們新任的農業金庫的董事長和董經理我們找個時間一起談一談來找我可以嗎可以可以謝謝"},{"start":13061.203,"end":13061.603,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢。"},{"start":13081.203,"end":13091.729,"text":"市長,公糧保駕收購的歷史嚴格。當初會有公糧保駕收購,大概60年代,因為鼓勵基地生產。現在隨著國人使用米的習慣改變,加上從國外進口的數量也多,從1991年就開始。"},{"start":13108.837,"end":13130.19,"text":"每年的這個稻米的生產大概都大於需求我想了解一下日本跟韓國分在87年民國87年跟94年都取消了這個所謂的保價收購的制度我想請教這個農業部對公糧保價收購這個制度的看法"},{"start":13136.82,"end":13150.814,"text":"他會一直持續下去嗎?還是他會做制度的調整?照理說你現在稻米的每年都是供過於求,對不對?供過於求的數量大概是多少?每年大概多20萬噸20萬噸,那20萬噸怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":13156.006,"end":13182.528,"text":"我想我們現在的公糧如果說進到公糧兩年以後我們會變成舊米然後舊米就會變成飼料米然後飼料米賣出有沒有尋求出口的可能性然後這是第二個部分第二個部分就是說他在一年一年內的這些米我們可以當作救助米然後少部分的會外銷那最主要就是因為公糧收購的時候不限品種所以他本身"},{"start":13184.67,"end":13193.835,"text":"外銷的數量大概是多少呢?外銷大概十幾萬噸我們增加我們這個供給大於需求是20萬噸嘛那你就覺得說你多出來的就可以外銷啦?"},{"start":13202.594,"end":13211.708,"text":"是嗎?我想公糧的外銷的困難度會比我們集團產區的品牌品的外銷的困難度還高因為它的品質不穩定"},{"start":13216.863,"end":13240.501,"text":"全世界有保價收購只有台灣對於這個公糧保價收購而且只有單一品項對不對道米有沒有聽到其他的這個農產品也要要求保價收購我想我們在這一次的地方的一個座談跟之前的一些調查的過程裡面那其實針對"},{"start":13242.182,"end":13255.95,"text":"花卉的雜糧的蔬菜的部分其實他們對這個公糧的提高的議題因為公糧提高的是因為成本的提高他們覺得說如果這樣的話他也希望能夠受到政府的照顧"},{"start":13264.915,"end":13279.126,"text":"所以你要看10年20年這個公糧制度公糧保駕制度他的存續還是你要做調整還是他有個落日我跟委員報告就是我們現在的策略就是"},{"start":13281.14,"end":13300.292,"text":"會支持稻農所的是我們必要的所以當你的產力價格比較高的時候他就不繳公糧了他就會繳民糧然後慢慢的慢慢的如果大家都繳民糧不繳公糧的時候他就可以自然而然的降低他的一個比重那這個部分我想我們是讓整個政策的裝軌制"},{"start":13301.893,"end":13304.795,"text":"你未來會取消公糧收購保釣收購制度嗎?我想我們不會取消,但是我們會讓農民選擇"},{"start":13322.825,"end":13339.903,"text":"當農民選擇繳到產地的時候那相對的公糧的你現在所提的一級二轉三加三那不是就是針對公糧制度在做改革嗎對做調整但是我不會說我就取消了公糧的收購我們不會這樣做但是我會讓市場慢慢的由農民來決定"},{"start":13341.404,"end":13368.011,"text":"你能說明一下這個公糧收購的這個最大的政策的這個目的是什麼當初公糧收購最大的政策就是因為那時候缺糧現在基本上第一個有一部分是安全存糧的部分但是安全存糧依現在法定的是三個月那現在我們的安全存糧大概將近八個月到一年所以遠遠超過我們的安全存糧"},{"start":13369.191,"end":13376.786,"text":"那你要慢慢調整到就是說我們安全存檔的規定三個月如果你做到三個月就好了"},{"start":13377.762,"end":13405.717,"text":"那你現在多數5個月你現在到8個月嘛8個月到一年對啊多數5個月就把這個半年多數大概半年多7個月那這個部分是不是可以慢慢的往這邊去調整對我跟委員報告保駕照顧不是強制他一定要來是農民決定他要不要交所以當我把產地價適度的把它拉高的時候農民就會去繳產地的部分公糧收的就變得比較少以這幾年的例子來講從50幾萬變成30幾萬就是一個很好的例子"},{"start":13407.298,"end":13430.486,"text":"所以最高的時候公糧的數量是佔總量多少?沒有,它最高的話一年大概56萬噸左右大概將近三成,兩成五到三成之間最高大概三成那現在是幾成?現在大概,沒有,現在在兩成三到兩成八吧我記得有一個數字"},{"start":13433.571,"end":13446.186,"text":"現在已經不到三成了特別是這兩年大概只有兩成三左右報告裡面就是對於這個調高公糧價格會造成很多負面影響這部分你們做過相關的這個對"},{"start":13448.688,"end":13477.091,"text":"聽農民的意見或者農事單位農業相關機構的意見我想我們在研擬這個方案的時候其實我們有包括地方的一些座談然後希望用什麼樣的方式然後包括跟集團產區其實我們做了非常多的座談然後這個政策我們從上個月開始我們已經啟動了所有的說明會大概20幾場的說明會那農民普遍聽起來是支持這樣的一個政策啦但我不可諱言的還是有少部分覺得說"},{"start":13477.671,"end":13478.532,"text":"政策希望讓大多數的農民得利"},{"start":13505.543,"end":13525.447,"text":"那不是讓少數的農民得利嗎?是,是所以你要這個是你的政策的這個在制定的最主要的依據另外,跟你討論一下農業保險投表率低的問題這個你應該有相關的EOE來處理就是說,你這2017到2024這個農業保險的這個預算有增加了3.51倍但目前的覆蓋率覆蓋率"},{"start":13536.249,"end":13539.55,"text":"我跟委員報告這個保險預算的增加就是我們補助這個保險那我已經啟動了整個保險的重新的檢討我覺得保險不能說開了以後"},{"start":13563.032,"end":13563.873,"text":"主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":13600.819,"end":13619.038,"text":"委員吼這個部長我剛剛聽到你跟我們邱委員的詢答我忽然醍醐灌頂我忽然懂了你沒有要取消公糧收購嘛對不對我們現在不會取消公糧收購這個制度不會取消但你這實質費公糧啊"},{"start":13621.345,"end":13648.002,"text":"你意思不就是這個?我聽他詢答過的就是這個意思啊來我要一個一個問你齁我們通過立法院的決議案齁就收購價格每公斤新台幣26元調升到5元啦齁那我想請問公糧價格多久沒調整了?一百年,上次的調整是一百年十三年沒調整嘛,對不對?是那基本性是調整幾次?四次吧調多少幅度?"},{"start":13650.427,"end":13658.454,"text":"勞工基本薪資調整12次工資漲幅53.64%如果勞工薪資也調整不斷再給你13年好了26年後勞工薪資調整到100%那公糧收購價格你要不要調整"},{"start":13667.369,"end":13694.575,"text":"我想我想勞工薪資要調整到什麼程度你才要調整公糧價格我想公糧收購要去調整他不是考慮到其他的勞工的基本薪資好沒關係勞工基本薪資你不看那我再看下一個13年來物價指數上漲多少?超過15個百分點然後央苗上漲的幅度多少?13年來部長這你手要掌握一下大概10%大概10%"},{"start":13697.858,"end":13699.759,"text":"我講13年這都是我從你們農業部拿來的資料啦你看後面都在點頭上漲43%"},{"start":13718.28,"end":13743.449,"text":"所以現在我們講農民的公糧收購除非你剛剛是廢掉這個制度照你的邏輯是什麼我管你漲到43、53、83、330你的意思都不動囉公糧收購價格都不動囉我想我們沒有說公糧收購價格一定不動我們現在說法就是你剛剛回答的時候反正我就放在那個地方你總有一天你要去什麼到一般市場去賣"},{"start":13744.927,"end":13772.368,"text":"為什麼因為公糧收購價格照你的方式這樣擺下去你到最後賣給公糧是虧的你不就政策目的達成不過我想跟委員報告齁其實我們看的是我們關心的是產地的價格產地的價格才是支持產業的部長我回到跟你講一件事啊我們賴總統說啊他的使命是照顧2300萬台灣人民的生計啊然後要讓經濟的成功的果實跟全民共享難道農民是被排除在外嗎"},{"start":13773.257,"end":13801.804,"text":"沒有我想我們農業部的責任也是要去照顧農民謝謝啦從公糧收購做起吧我還是回頭一件事啊13年光央苗就漲了43%農藥肥料13年漲了多少?漲了25%可是你就是聞風不動26元你就是不肯調我今天的話雖然立法院決議調5元啦可是你現在是一塊錢兩塊錢三塊錢你也都不調啊不是嗎?"},{"start":13803.732,"end":13820.802,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實我們農業部在看我們希望說照顧到農業的收益的過程之中我也要支持產業的永續發展這個才是重要的沒關係啦我支持你產業的發展理念你直接宣布公糧價格取消嘛制度取消你又不宣布取消你該派個實質判死刑"},{"start":13821.823,"end":13824.004,"text":"可是相對的他的收益跟他的產量也在不斷的滾動所以我們看的是最後的一個收益的部分"},{"start":13850.399,"end":13874.095,"text":"他的成本一直在漲,然後你的所謂的收購價格是固定在那個地方,你跟我講他收益在增加,我的數學可能沒有...沒有,我跟委員報告齁,因為我們的稻穀收購是雙軌的,所以現在稻農本身如果說你不繳公糧的話,你收益會不會比純粹繳公糧還高部長,我告訴你,你的政策齁,有些人受益,有些人受害"},{"start":13874.997,"end":13900.488,"text":"但是今天公糧價格為什麼今天立法院決議要做這個調整就是因為對現在的農民這些公糧收購的農民不公平嘛你過去整個政策你沒有調整的過程當中更何況我跟你講我沒聽前面的委員質詢我還不知道你的目的勒你搞了半天就跟他講反正總有一天你就要去市場賣阿你意思是這樣阿我確實阿你照你的做法你就非得到市場賣阿"},{"start":13901.889,"end":13918.824,"text":"公糧的收購是純粹指示繳公糧的人但是他會影響整個市場的一個機制的運作所以我跟你講你這麼情願直接把繳公糧這些人拖出去了啦我們會慢慢的引導他們到你沒有慢慢"},{"start":13920.188,"end":13946.441,"text":"所以我們很多集團栽培的部分反正我就是價格定在那裡到時候你攪公糧的人你就不用來攪了我跟委員報告我剛才也說了就是說我們現在目前我們希望一級二轉參加三的部分我知道你現在你要為政策辯護啦但是說真的今天公糧收購攸關的農民喔我是覺得今天你剛剛在前面委員答詢的時候我請農民好好聽聽啦到底原因是什麼謝謝"},{"start":13954.52,"end":13955.52,"text":"請認識保委員質詢謝謝主席有請農業部的陳部長請陳部長部長你好"},{"start":13981.653,"end":13999.578,"text":"今天早上我來了幾次聽你講了半天了你的態度非常嗆硬喔我們立法院決議公糧收購價格增加5塊錢結果你現在講一些五四三都聽不懂喔反正沒有人要聽 耳朵都關起來那我就問你是不是1塊錢都不要增我跟你們說5塊錢我做不到我加個加個2塊加個3塊都沒啥理1塊錢你不可以增 幹嘛咧"},{"start":14009.529,"end":14017.816,"text":"我跟委員講齁就是我跟委員報告齁就是我們看的是造體的成我們現在推了這個部分然後工糧的部分我們也會去處理我們以現在的規劃我們是不準備調整工糧的價格但是我們會試著我們後續的這些是我們立法院的決議"},{"start":14032.469,"end":14033.23,"text":"請問你,農業部運燃預算多少?"},{"start":14050.301,"end":14075.353,"text":"農業部公務預算是1692億基金預算大概747億2000億了對然後可用的可用因為有些撥補的部分可用的大概20002000多億了2000多億即便按照你算的其實你灌水很多啦說5塊錢的話會增加100多億這個是我們精算出來的那休耕怎麼算這個帳呢休耕為什麼算在裡面這個帳休耕休耕"},{"start":14078.646,"end":14080.907,"text":"關水啊!你那關水把其他的算成這個帳啊!恐嚇啊!真的啊!部長啊!"},{"start":14101.734,"end":14126.025,"text":"這個下一句話你可不可以回答?很簡單!卓榮泰或者賴清德叫你調你就調了啦!這樣就行了啦!看屯房稅這個公糧收購是一個很純粹的農業民生的問題結果這個看起來貌似中良貌似老實的一個陳部長原來這麼政治化來!我們來另外一個關心一個題目你不是喊出來"},{"start":14131.222,"end":14152.113,"text":"本本是先鮮乳先來鮮乳結果現在是四年四十四一結果現在只有15%喝鮮乳80%喝另外的補救乳這個情況現在你自己督導半半喝鮮奶就是賴總統"},{"start":14154.397,"end":14183.197,"text":"他上任以後的一個所謂的德政欸照顧我們的小孩子發育的更好營養更充足有蛋白質有鈣等等的喝鮮奶結果現在來講到你這裡執行的滴滴答答這個時候想到現在小學生變成農林榆木的救世主只要大陸那裡很卡結果馬上就學生來消耗"},{"start":14185.462,"end":14198.176,"text":"2022年 蔡英文執政的時候 班班吃十班 總共花了六億九個月 收攤啦 我不知道你班班喝鮮奶 什麼時候要收攤"},{"start":14199.421,"end":14199.541,"text":"是誰的口號?"},{"start":14217.749,"end":14217.769,"text":"致詢"},{"start":14240.639,"end":14241.48,"text":"什麼時候可以全部喝到?"},{"start":14263.351,"end":14263.751,"text":"沒有 這個簽字到學校的下單的部分齁"},{"start":14281.118,"end":14282.72,"text":"10月底一定可以喝到不一定喝鮮奶"},{"start":14303.403,"end":14303.704,"text":"有什麼不一樣?"},{"start":14315.609,"end":14331.125,"text":"他的品質營養都是一樣但是兩個就是他的配送的方式不一樣最後一個小問題就是欸哥法現在兩岸關係這麼緊張這麼不好欸哥法可能會全面取消喔這個對農產品的"},{"start":14332.947,"end":14346.335,"text":"影響是很大的還是影響不大?我想我們很持續的關切這個議題那以現在目前ECFA本身的18個品項來講以112年大概4170幾億然後它的關稅成本大概581億那這個581億其實也是一個風險所以我們會積極的針對比較重要的這些品項這些品項其實我們也盤點了"},{"start":14357.822,"end":14358.122,"text":"早就該做的嘛"},{"start":14381.381,"end":14405.286,"text":"有媒體公開呼籲啦,我們台灣的經濟水平比大陸高這麼多,要幹嘛啦?要幹嘛啦?我想我們重視每一個市場,包括中國市場,我們都重視這個東西還要去WTO,WTO就是公平貿易,你要佔人家便宜回到WTO的話,現在我們很多也禁止大陸農產品進來對不對?"},{"start":14409.151,"end":14430.32,"text":"禁止大陸農產品進來台灣吧有沒有這個是在多年前喔是嘛大陸農產品他也可以他自己都有啊他就是就是不管你是政治目的也好什麼的我們不要這樣看他沒意義的感覺就不要了感覺就不要了農產品就不要了"},{"start":14431.031,"end":14431.291,"text":"請圖全基委員質詢"},{"start":14461.943,"end":14484.501,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長委員好 部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的"},{"start":14486.257,"end":14509.202,"text":"那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎"},{"start":14509.822,"end":14533.682,"text":"我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這個這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果"},{"start":14534.463,"end":14538.914,"text":"用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得"},{"start":14541.485,"end":14566.226,"text":"所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農"},{"start":14568.588,"end":14590.173,"text":"我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格"},{"start":14591.173,"end":14613.411,"text":"所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這個才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好 所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農"},{"start":14614.893,"end":14629.146,"text":"向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效"},{"start":14630.618,"end":14652.28,"text":"我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的市選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得"},{"start":14653.123,"end":14675.961,"text":"而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年"},{"start":14678.323,"end":14678.363,"text":"我...我..."},{"start":14695.036,"end":14717.177,"text":"您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這三年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了"},{"start":14717.917,"end":14731.074,"text":"大概9%左右大概10年間但是相對的他的產量也做了一些一些精進跟提高所以以稻穀每一公斤稻穀的產量的話他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子"},{"start":14733.437,"end":14751.17,"text":"部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟稻農種植的面積它不是只有看價錢你看根據我們調查的數據顯示"},{"start":14752.731,"end":14781.36,"text":"像我們112年我們預計收購382,000噸結果沒有收購到還去市場多採購4萬多也就是說事實上像氣候供水輔導休耕等等都可能會對它有所影響所以我說農業部不應該針對好像價格提高就會跟我們農民繳交這個數量畫上等號你擔心好像提高"},{"start":14781.9,"end":14800.42,"text":"你就會收太多銷售不出我跟委員報告您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說當你在100年的108年的話我是7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒講那麼多是表示說你產力價值提高的"},{"start":14801.061,"end":14823.284,"text":"因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的收購數就會變少這是一個好現象就是說因為產地價比公糧的收購價還高所以這個部分就是我們要控制面積盡量讓產地價提高才會讓我們的稻農的所得整體來提高"},{"start":14824.025,"end":14838.284,"text":"所以我說啊基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型、企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說"},{"start":14839.145,"end":14843.568,"text":"我們應該 農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說 其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討 不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題"},{"start":14857.6,"end":14880.238,"text":"是 我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話會對於整個稻農的收益會更好"},{"start":14880.658,"end":14895.696,"text":"那後續我們也會來檢討這個公糧本身的這些收購的部分不只是看那個價格還要看其他的因素這個後續我們會來處理部長我們是建議啊都能夠並存啦是你公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義啊十幾年沒調漲"},{"start":14896.897,"end":14918.946,"text":"那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義"},{"start":14928.447,"end":14929.007,"text":"請郭國文委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":14947.384,"end":14973.943,"text":"委員部長好部長那個公糧收購不應該成為稻農的唯一提高收入的一個方法吧是好那但是大家已經討論非常多但是本席呢想要針對最近發生的這個台米颱風的問題之後呢那我們看到貴部啊修正這個天然災害補助辦法受理時間呢延長了到10天10個工作天"},{"start":14974.864,"end":14980.327,"text":"然後災損又再延長5天持發性的認定提報從3個月變成6個月取消了20%的規定只確認這個重養殖的事實是不是有這樣的修正"},{"start":14990.953,"end":15013.008,"text":"對 我想非常感謝委員一直對天然災害救助應該更貼切到農民那我們從基層端受理的時候他如果限於10天公所的壓力會很大所以我們做彈性的調整從日一天變更多的天你前面的作業要調整本期沒有什麼太大建議你要確保後面的認定不要有所爭議但是關鍵還是撥補的部分要趕快"},{"start":15017.071,"end":15034.15,"text":"你像現在呢最近這件事情呢從7月啊那個7月的時候所認定的這一個那個天然災害的認定你不分品項這個是好的作為但是申請之後到現在已經快一個一季了"},{"start":15035.111,"end":15056.82,"text":"都還沒有什麼 去7月16號到現在全品項的先進救助都殺各位我每天這些基層被人家問欸昨天晚上我還收到LINE對我知道 跟委員報告齁我們只要收到地方政府報上來3年之內一定播然後我們播到地方政府地方政府才會轉播所以你是說出在地方政府嗎對 我們的資料顯示齁我們現在"},{"start":15059.861,"end":15079.296,"text":"我們現在的資料顯示以台南市來講齁就是他提出來大概是5億多對齁然後現在已經撥付了3億多然後還有2億多那2億多也是這幾天來的我們3天之內一定會撥出去是齁那有一部分的區域污染啦齁因為縣市政府區域的話可能縣市政府還要復刊"},{"start":15080.116,"end":15102.399,"text":"他還沒有送到農業部部長如果是假設深圳政府行政流程延誤的話你們也從你們一個這個指導單位當中應該去跟他調整一下那個縮短那個流程嘛否則的話我們當初要求你們下來進行撥博每天是被人家問那決定權又在你們身上那不是我們好不好我想我們會一起來努力針對地方政府在撥的部分"},{"start":15104.06,"end":15124.282,"text":"另外一個就是有一個擴大灌區的部分因為以前在山區的部分本期的部分南西玉井的部分都還是灌區但是你們在去年的時候說沒有水源把它變成非灌區但問題呢過往以前有一些灌溉的這個溝渠兼排水的作用"},{"start":15124.923,"end":15150.663,"text":"但是呢那些設備大家還是要使用啊就後來就找不到事主沒有人要補助啊說你們就要廢除掉了違反信賴保護原則嘛當初把它劃已經劃到裡頭了這是第一個問題部長第二個問題呢之前我們的擴大灌區擴大那個非灌區擴大灌區的概念就是原來的灌區以外的一個非灌區的部分把它擴大本來就是農業部的政策不是嗎是"},{"start":15152.225,"end":15163.581,"text":"對阿 那農業部的政策之後呢後來又變成是充滿變數本來呢在南西有一個示範區後來也沒有可能再大就沒有消息了那本席很想知道你這政策的態度到底是如何"},{"start":15164.76,"end":15181.637,"text":"我跟委員報告 特別是南溪的部分 我也要求我們農水組去趁著執行因為擴大灌區本身是我們農業部既定的政策 不管怎麼樣一定要克服這個一定要克服 就算地方有一些 早期的好像沒人管"},{"start":15182.117,"end":15193.113,"text":"但是他只要是能夠提供我們農民的水資源我們就會去服務這個我已經要求我們農水組確實去做到政策要延續是好的政策過去認為是一個慣區的東西你既然大政策要動"},{"start":15197.679,"end":15198.279,"text":"最後呢我要跟您講一件事情齁"},{"start":15225.618,"end":15250.595,"text":"我最近在進行那個台日交流,日本方的國會議員就講說那個蔓苗的部分很奇怪台灣的蔓苗都不能過去他們那邊反而走私到香港,你先看這個圖在2007年的時候我們的頭期蔓禁止出口之後結果呢我們就沒有蔓苗出口結果後來變成這個紅線都從香港到日本原因在哪裡?原因很簡單嘛,就是我們走私到那邊去嘛"},{"start":15251.155,"end":15276.45,"text":"那麼走私跑去那邊之後人家說我們就開放漁業協定的時候大家來談就好了就問了一下漁業協定也沒有協定明明是一個很大問題臺日之間有漁業協定為什麼不能拿出來談呢對不對然後第二個問題正慘的是我們現在蔓延要從哪邊來我們走私出去蔓延要從哪邊來就從中國大陸來那如果中國大陸來的話哪一天養套殺又把你斷掉那你臺灣的蔓延草原不是game over了嗎"},{"start":15277.421,"end":15300.349,"text":"對不對?部長,這問題很重耶!特別是蔓苗的部分,特別是投蔓苗的部分我們也希望說,第一個我們要確保我們自己的一個產業第二個蔓苗可以銷日本的部分,我們一定要透過任何的管道去溝通啦!包括那個時間點,因為剛好日本的這些產季跟我們錯開的部分有沒有辦法更好的方式?現在因為有一些可能"},{"start":15301.369,"end":15328.881,"text":"受到特別的這些蔓苗的傷在左右啦那這個部分我想我會要求那個那個漁業署這邊部分一定要去解決我可以說一定要要求漁業署這個蔓苗產業啊岌岌可危啊你把你的生命的那個咽喉掌握在對方的手中什麼時候被掐了你都不曉得對我們也不希望這個發生我想我們會要求漁業署這邊謝謝委員的提醒我們本來在軟牛上是最有優勢的地方來投機盲是最好的耶"},{"start":15329.941,"end":15330.601,"text":"請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請陳部長"},{"start":15364.633,"end":15382.445,"text":"會長好,針對今天召委所排定的議程,我們的目的也就是要好好照顧農民。從早上到現在本席所聽的,也就是似乎您的方向跟提案委員的方向是不太一樣。"},{"start":15384.478,"end":15409.354,"text":"當然本席也可以看出說你終結還是希望能夠好好的照顧農民對不對但是我們就實務的民主程序來看也就到目前為止立法院在7月16號通過的公糧收購案來要求你因綜合考量各項的成本"},{"start":15410.074,"end":15428.677,"text":"包括人工包括肥料包括物價指數將公糧收購的價格呢從26塊來提升5塊以因應目前物價指數的一個波動導致我們農民他的一個成本的一個增加"},{"start":15429.298,"end":15454.607,"text":"因為十幾年都沒有提升這是你政府的政策但是到目前為止立法院三讀通過那麼行政院也沒有復議因此在10月9號的時候財政部跟主計單位來立法院報告我們就針對民主程序他一句話他說尊重農業部"},{"start":15456.227,"end":15465.418,"text":"所以本期要請教農在行政院也沒有做復議的情況之下現在要請你們從議你會不會編提高公糧收購的價格的預算你會不會編"},{"start":15472.305,"end":15473.968,"text":"請告訴我會不會編：針對本席的提問因為立法院7月16號通過那在這樣程序行政院也沒有附議"},{"start":15489.668,"end":15500.557,"text":"那10月9號剛才本席所說的論述所以本席還是要請問你你會不會編在你行政院從議的時候農業部會不會編公糧收購提高的價格我們現在目前並沒有去針對五塊錢的經費去做經費的調整但是我們增加所以換句話說沒關係我們一項一項講所以換句話說你不會編"},{"start":15517.711,"end":15520.533,"text":"是不是?目前沒有編未來會不會編?民主程序行政院沒有復議你會不會編?你告訴我會不會就好那你告訴我針對於立法院7月16號所通過的這個決議那你會不會編?"},{"start":15541.294,"end":15544.924,"text":"所以換句話說你不會變我可以這麼解讀嗎?我可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":15549.326,"end":15554.829,"text":"請針對本席的提問我們現在是一個民主國家照程序各方有各方的意見不一都可以討論但是我們現在走到民主程序是這樣子請問農業部部長陳部長你會不會依據立法院三讀通過行政院送請行政院行政院沒有賦予你會不會編這個預算"},{"start":15578.539,"end":15584.203,"text":"我還是跟委員說明你會不會編告訴我請告訴本席你會不會編我們現在目前並沒有這樣的規劃我們希望委員來支持換句話說你就是不甩立法院嘛行政院也沒有復印"},{"start":15594.97,"end":15616.405,"text":"行政院沒有復議你現在告訴本席是說你不會編我要讓社會大眾大家看清楚誰要照顧農民我們得到了一個答案也就是說立法院三讀通過行政院沒有復議竟然我們農業部也不編我要告訴給民眾我要告訴給農民"},{"start":15625.43,"end":15627.671,"text":"我請問你還是聽你的話在繳公糧的人這些人怎麼辦這幾年沒有提升這些人怎麼辦這些人怎麼辦"},{"start":15651.343,"end":15653.584,"text":"我告訴你這一些人沒有功勞也有苦勞阿沒有理由不照顧他們阿我今天要轉什麼政策都好但是聽你的話的人"},{"start":15674.724,"end":15698.156,"text":"竟然是這麼樣得不到照顧那你要怎麼辦 你對得起他們嗎 對不對你要不敢廢掉你要做什麼政策 我們都OK但是是未知數欸現在乖乖聽你政策的人還在繳公糧的人十幾年十幾年你薪水都漲了幾次啊十幾年都沒有漲"},{"start":15699.036,"end":15701.818,"text":"你還大大大地說我要照顧他我請問聽你的話的人該當得到懲罰嗎?不應當所以部長我相信你也是照顧你也是照顧農民的人本席的話你好好去聽沒說話沒哭話乖乖聽你的竟然還要得到懲罰十幾年沒長對不起我們的農民"},{"start":15721.095,"end":15729.729,"text":"你自己冷靜去想我希望在你從議的預算能夠看到這筆預算好不好你趕快去研議接下來本期要跟你討論的"},{"start":15731.192,"end":15755.997,"text":"也就是極端氣候我們現今救助的部分32.7億在累計這10年來平均你支出這樣子那在這種情況之下我們好不容易去推動農保 農業保險可是我們看到你的數字你明年所編列的是11.3億左右但是我們看到你實施的也就每一年"},{"start":15757.357,"end":15772.764,"text":"這上映但是我們看到你的數字我們的農保覆蓋率他沒有達到兩成耶為什麼為什麼你這扣掉扣掉你的這個強制納保的這個部分你實際上只有多少"},{"start":15773.524,"end":15798.042,"text":"只有多少 17.6%所以該當怎麼辦該當怎麼辦 極端氣候像我們的離子我沒有想到它掉在袋子裡頭耶結果它是不會長 因為它的根斷了一半對不對 我們都去看了每一次我們都要現金救助 我的心都痛了農民該當怎麼辦 我們好不容易有一個政策去做這個農業保險 那為什麼"},{"start":15800.928,"end":15809.274,"text":"為什麼執行不來?扣掉強制保險,剩下17.6%,你要怎麼因應?你要怎麼因應?你要求他們重新檢討,什麼時候有因應方案,你是推廣不夠,人民沒有信心,還是認為我都沒問題,我要怎麼辦?那你講話要讓"},{"start":15826.407,"end":15843.119,"text":"農民聽得懂啊 要讓你 人家對你有信心啊所以我覺得要求農經署跟我們的所屬單位再去跟農民做溝通 因為不是只有溝通 他們很辛苦都有在溝通我覺得保單的設計如果好的話保單設計好的話一定會你現在講到重點 保單的設計也就是我這棵柴 有湯薄 可以賠我隔壁不能賠 誰會甘願啊"},{"start":15855.836,"end":15856.878,"text":"這樣是不公平的我這股產我這一塊圓我可以賠我隔壁的不能賠"},{"start":15866.158,"end":15892.058,"text":"你的請募方式要不要去跟保險公司去檢討啊?這個就是我要求農金屬檢討就是保單的設計跟保單的理賠的標準跟保單要發生理賠的這些調查這個都需要精心去精準的去計算你的調查你應該點要放多啊對不對?這個我們已經要求農金屬再處理而且時間可以告訴我們你們討論的方向改變的方案"},{"start":15893.087,"end":15895.85,"text":"最後一個議題本席請問你為了這個雞蛋進口的搞的送檢調行政處分不知道答案是什麼本席絕對不願意看到一個國家是這麼的紛亂"},{"start":15920.54,"end":15934.214,"text":"要進口搞了這麼多的事情現在每一天我們剩餘每一天耶雞蛋農啊苦哈哈每一天剩餘多少一百萬克"},{"start":15936.092,"end":15940.334,"text":"你們的主管告訴我們什麼?未來會請國防部學校多使用雞蛋並請養雞協會規劃雞蛋促銷活動以協助消化雞蛋這個不是我們的政策不是你的政策為什麼要這麼說呢?讓我們一桶霧水欸我告訴你這個寫這句話我們的國軍我們的學生他要以他的營養為基準來吃東西欸"},{"start":15965.668,"end":15982.395,"text":"對所以我說這個絕對不是我們的政策我先說明這個絕對不是我們的政策那相對的學校的營養午餐一定是營養師根據學童的需求去設計的我們不會去干涉那這該怎麼辦這樣的表示要怎麼處理你要不要澄清"},{"start":15985.996,"end":15988.037,"text":"本席不希望造成家長孩子我們的阿兵哥家長都恐慌所以本席要請教那怎麼解決"},{"start":16009.505,"end":16011.725,"text":"部長你現在說的還是在怪罪於業者啦你應該針對你是農業部阿"},{"start":16037.091,"end":16047.611,"text":"你要拿出你的方案 你的總計要不要控管你要從源頭啊 你不從源頭叫人家今天多生一點明天少生一點"},{"start":16049.655,"end":16076.551,"text":"誰聽你的話他要生出來不生怎麼辦啊你應該從總機去控管本期要跟你討論這個議題也就是說你應該要好好的去討論我們要解決這個問題你一方面要進口二方面又剩餘那麼多你的問題點交集點在哪裡你的最原本他這個蛋從哪裡來從總機來總機要不要控管"},{"start":16077.071,"end":16094.905,"text":"你有沒有控管總機有沒有去輔導請教我們有在輔導現在總機有在控管但是一個非常重要的就是說我不大願意再用補助的方面去將他們淘汰因為我淘汰了老母雞他們又進了新雞那對整個產業是沒有幫助的你講到這邊也就是部長我們一個結論你以往的政策你給老母雞我一隻一隻多少錢啊"},{"start":16103.157,"end":16123.87,"text":"去除的一支多少錢嘛 對不對鼓勵他們去除嘛 對不對你執行了一段時間你應該要滾動式去檢討所以表示之前的這個政策你是不成功的那你要怎麼辦你應該有研議方案出來好不好你去研議方案出來啦進口出了那麼多的"},{"start":16124.991,"end":16125.311,"text":"我大概兩個禮拜就可以提供給"},{"start":16152.739,"end":16155.5,"text":"我想還趁這個機會能夠呼籲我們的消費者因為供需總是要有一個平衡那在需求端的部分希望說我們鼓勵我們所有的消費者"},{"start":16179.631,"end":16179.751,"text":"請蔡議員發言"},{"start":16217.95,"end":16219.756,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":16228.376,"end":16255.927,"text":"委員好部長好部長因為今天在討論這個公糧的收購價格事實上我過去也召開協調會甚至我在質詢的時候我也是有跟農業部這邊說如果我們在於針對農民的收入提高公糧的價格是可以考慮的一個辦法但是提高公糧價格我們除了稻農要照顧之外事實上還是有其他的農民"},{"start":16256.847,"end":16285.683,"text":"是,我想以農業部的立場就是說我們對產業對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧的一個方式對,所以事實上部長你也知道說就像嘉義啦嘉義或是雲林啦我們就是正好介在平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多那在沿海地方就是種植雜糧雜糧的部分,對那如果是雜糧,你說黃小玉講玉米就好了,講玉米"},{"start":16287.563,"end":16304.389,"text":"這個玉米的保價收購多少錢?9塊現在是每公斤9塊9塊嘛對不對我看起來已經將近40年了40年沒有調整那個不是保價那是器做的一個價格他是器做價格所以他是沒有調整他唯一價格好的時候就是在"},{"start":16306.369,"end":16330.278,"text":"這個疫情的時候那個時候因為航運出問題他有把他的玉米價格有飆到了差不多12塊那是他最好的時候看起來隨著疫情的結束那航運現在已經都順暢了整個價格又掉下來現在大概又掉到7塊多所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民他是事實上種10年都覺得吃不公平"},{"start":16331.355,"end":16349.056,"text":"因為你如果想,我們好的土地有打造水路、有打造灌溉的,那些都是種稻米的,種雜糧的,他們就是叫做旱區,旱區本身他們那裡的水也比較少,那是種不公平的。然後我再跟部長提示一個問題就是說,你們一直在說"},{"start":16351.584,"end":16364.743,"text":"像現在你們要說一級二轉那一級二轉的我講這個二轉二轉的精神就是說我們希望稻米減量啊稻米減量齁啊這個自然價格會上車嘛剛才說芥農就會講到供需的問題啊"},{"start":16366.725,"end":16375.974,"text":"所以如果種植的減少了自然它的稻米的價格會上升這個是第一個問題第二個就是說我們還是希望這個把種稻因為台灣的稻米糧食過剩所以我們希望把種稻的面積轉為去做轉做轉做雜糧或轉做其他的類似蔬菜蔬果類"},{"start":16388.045,"end":16416.608,"text":"那轉做的話我們有給他這個轉做金對我跟委員報告就是說這些水稻因為二級做本身的收益就比較比一起做還不好所以我們希望說二級做的部分你如果轉成雜糧的部分轉成其他的部分我們給他一萬五的不重道獎勵以外那相對的這些後續送雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他我們也會補助一些農業的機械讓他也變成一個比較自動化的機械化的一個栽培"},{"start":16417.348,"end":16441.99,"text":"所以我們說有這個不中道獎金但是我要跟部長講這個在農民在實踐上有他的一個困難這個困難就是我要說的因為我們現在又我們有很多政策要大家一起來全面去看我們現在又有所謂四選三我們又有大區輪座但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選所以你現在說好我要把它轉成不中道獎金他去做"},{"start":16442.992,"end":16448.847,"text":"種植玉米他去種植漢作,但是他種植的時候,他最怕的是怕什麼?怕旁邊的人繼續要種植啊?"},{"start":16451.227,"end":16455.169,"text":"所以這就是委員一致關心的那我們現在就是說以前是純粹當然沒有說都是自願的啦但是我們希望說他在輪作的時候能夠用一個集團的概念去處理"},{"start":16475.658,"end":16492.43,"text":"那這樣處理的時候會比較不會造成說隔壁中水道這就沒辦法我們期待他這個一定要你們用所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理政策誘因之外我感覺稍微施加強制啦你如果說我這區就要用四選三啊既然這樣就讓他們集體做四選三讓他們的決定一樣嘛"},{"start":16497.274,"end":16515.986,"text":"對,我想我會做相關的一個規範,這個部分委員上次有提到齁,我們已經在做一些規範,就是想辦法讓他們一致性,雖然說自願的,但是他的自願的一致性是非常重要的,這個部分我想我們會再做後續的更精進的一些誘因的設計。部長你也知道,我們最近我才跟你討論說,加金輪高位來齁,不要說紅胎啦,加煉水爐齁。對。"},{"start":16526.653,"end":16542.818,"text":"就有困難對連種植綠肥都有困難了餒是對阿所以你也知道說你那種漢做的尤其他在大家開始齁要補的時候他是很怕水的是阿他如果怕水阿像我剛才講的你沒有辦法做好整體的控管等於是說對於當地農民的種植他是很困擾的了解"},{"start":16546.079,"end":16560.894,"text":"所以我覺得我們農業部我們除了這要一級二轉然後要去提高農民的收入事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的瞭解阿不是空氣多點的話因為他們總會遇到很多這種我們沒辦法去預測的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":16564.285,"end":16585.6,"text":"阿第二個齁就是我要講到這個農業保險這個農業保險因為我上次只講到時間比較短齁就是說這個農業保險齁我們知道這個保險覆蓋率事實上剛剛那個郭國文委員有講到保險覆蓋率是一直偏向不足那這個保險覆蓋率不足勒主要還是說他除了強制"},{"start":16586.64,"end":16614.158,"text":"強制的部分之外我們去用加強型的但是這個加強型的勒對於農民來說那個誘因就是機會起來雖然我們政府都有補助像我們在嘉義我們嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一啊農業部這邊也補助三分之一剩下的部分對農民來說大家都說保費不高可是問題他們去補的誘因就沒有啊所以我覺得部長你們有去跟農民聊然後去了解到底實際原因出在哪邊嗎"},{"start":16616.419,"end":16641.301,"text":"我已經請農金署重新去檢討第一個我覺得保單的設計非常重要保單的設計如果沒有當然理賠不是要去賺錢但是保單的設計一定要符合風險那另外一個就是保單理賠的時候的調查那個非常重要因為調查如果說你沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候就會造成很大的爭議那有一些保單是因為你理賠的爭議性造成農民覺得說"},{"start":16642.602,"end":16647.083,"text":"這部分就是大家都驚訝我覺得對於農民來說誘因不足這只有在一個他們覺得不合用而且現在我覺得農民事實上還是都把這一個"},{"start":16665.567,"end":16677.657,"text":"這個保險因為他們過去有天然災害的一個救助所以他們認為說既然有天然災害救助跟這個保險跟這個保險有災害救助然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因"},{"start":16678.902,"end":16682.745,"text":"我個人來講我不要衝那個品項越來越多我寧願品項如果說覺得沒有什麼效果我寧願關掉我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的"},{"start":16704.46,"end":16705.602,"text":"好部長我最後一個問題齁我們那個鋪紙肉品市場那"},{"start":16720.677,"end":16743.588,"text":"阿甘現在到底稍微算可以開始興建阿甘現在對待的就是說若敏市長現在的經費大概都已經在那邊了但是相對的就是說他必須要有一個經營主體來去做這樣的一個承接可是這不是討論好久的嗎對 那個經營主體本身現在還談不攏阿"},{"start":16744.942,"end":16754.833,"text":"對,這個部分我想我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。那到底什麼時候可以發報?那現在工程應該可以先開始了吧?因為工程還是需要時間的,你要知道我們在鋪紙肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停的太早。"},{"start":16765.385,"end":16770.35,"text":"對於這些肉品的這個承銷人,他們也增加了他的不便利。當然這部分,我們農業部有補助他,但是問題都一直還在啊。這些問題又等到興建好正式營運上路,靠阿都該關欸。"},{"start":16791.108,"end":16814.549,"text":"現在看到你們到底什麼時候可以新建這件事情大家都不知道那個經營主體要出來才能提計畫才能夠去執行啊而不是說因為現在沒有一個主體去提計畫來執行那因為包括我們的嘉義縣政府嘛然後還有續展會嘛然後還有嘉義的這些農會的部分嘛"},{"start":16814.989,"end":16825.366,"text":"那這三個三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提那這三方現在還在做協調我們會來努力做一個基本的這個協調也好久了那到底問題是出在哪邊"},{"start":16827.543,"end":16844.932,"text":"這個我想有他們的不同的想法啦那這個部分我想可能後續我們還會再努力啦部長我覺得這個是要加速啦因為那個官黑後面是很多人的包括是他整個我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情都出總控了因為肉品"},{"start":16845.732,"end":16864.001,"text":"普子肉餅市長是一個典範他是一個那個土體的分級的一個那個拍賣的部分他跟現在的活動拍賣是不一樣的所以他是一個我們也很期望他趕快大家都期待啊但是隨著時間一直拖一年一年過去我們盡量來協調他們的經營主義這課程要拖很久的耶我們很感動的不然我們經費掛在那邊也不是辦法好好好趕快加速麻煩謝謝"},{"start":16881.384,"end":16896.579,"text":"請侯孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝好主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":16905.165,"end":16915.664,"text":"部長 辛苦啦不過剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的一個部分的時候有講到說斑斑有鮮奶這樣的一個政策不是我們農業部說啊"},{"start":16918.132,"end":16945.492,"text":"我想斑斑有鮮奶這幾個字不是我們對外的一個宣導那我們正式的一個計畫是把我們的國產的這些產銷優質的這些牛奶牛奶優質的牛奶進到學校那相對的他不只是鮮奶我就好奇啊教育文化委員會教育部部長、次長、農業部次長來立院報告也是斑斑有鮮奶的準備執行"},{"start":16947.186,"end":16973.372,"text":"這是教育文化委員會那天召委他的一個這個題目那今天行政院17號今天早上也下令斑斑有些奶改推新措施啊認了政策有瑕疵啊所以與其我們一直在講這個說話這個這個名稱跟我們的計畫內容不一定因為現在全國國人都知道而且是連那個我們教育部或說連行政院也都認為說政策就是這個樣子啊"},{"start":16974.591,"end":16993.945,"text":"所以我覺得與其說我們還要去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這個事情,搞不好說怎麼樣來思考經濟這件事情我非常同意齁,就是因為是剛才有委員說我們在推先來,我說我強調的是那個先來的字就是說我們當初給學校的時候尊重學校的一個訂購因為一開始,會聽到第一個掰掰有先來的時候,其實我就擔憂喔"},{"start":16999.665,"end":17028.084,"text":"學校有偏鄉有山區有海邊有大的學校我的選區裡面光本席的選區就好有大的學校一屆一千多人將近兩千人也有小的學校六個年級加起來18人那這樣子的一個落差你有辦法真的做到斑斑有鮮奶嗎沒有辦法嗎所以說到目前為止我即便我問了教育部部長教育部部長我甚至問他說即便是薄酒乳啦"},{"start":17029.161,"end":17057.111,"text":"你到今年年底前有沒有辦法他不敢回答我那什麼意思就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶喝到鮮奶喝到優質奶本席都同意但是不需要用這樣子來去做轉變然後到最後好像一推二五六教育部不認說這是農業部而是農業部不認說這個跟計畫不相干我講農業部絕對沒有不認好部長所以本席比較那個你班班有牛奶嗎"},{"start":17058.308,"end":17065.844,"text":"那斑斑有牛奶可能有人講說那羊奶算不算好的牛奶斑斑有優質奶嘛斑斑有好乳嘛"},{"start":17066.974,"end":17088.278,"text":"好不好 是什麼時候會有新的措施出來我想我們分兩個階段第一個階段就是在這一學期本身我們已經對這個學期還是一樣照走那什麼時候會有新的措施我想一個很重要的原則就是說我們推的如果推的新的政策絕對不會影響到增加學校的負擔這個是一個非常重要的"},{"start":17088.658,"end":17090.34,"text":"那這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部?"},{"start":17112.202,"end":17140.843,"text":"我想是一起努力的啦一起努力還是會有因為兩個和尚是挑水河你知道嗎我知道所以不管怎麼樣我的意思是說到底現在這個亂象已經造成了那接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會還是農業部主導找教育部來開會我想我剛才說的兩個部會一起合作但是農業部一定會負更大的責任針對整個供應量做有系統的確保這個部分才會接下來就是由"},{"start":17141.784,"end":17142.685,"text":"行政部門應該要尊重立法部門"},{"start":17164.904,"end":17189.806,"text":"是行政部門應該要去了解掌握立法部門到底提出這樣的一個政策有什麼樣的一個前因後果那尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說啊我沒有反對你的什麼3加3的這些相關的政策但是重點是農糧收購跟這3加7是它不衝突啊"},{"start":17190.487,"end":17212.577,"text":"有一些政策來講我沒有說要你只能選A不能選B只能選B不能選A而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做你一方面你可以精進你一方面你可以改良一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友他們持續但另外一方面反映物價的一個部分那還有我必須要強調您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這一個提案裡面有哪個黨團反對嗎"},{"start":17216.721,"end":17244.068,"text":"在組決議的時候沒有沒有黨團反對嘛 對不對那就代表是說這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個組決議啊我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱好像講的好像講的是說欸對不能提高收購那如果說不能提高收購這個組決議的話那7月16號沒有任何人有異議這是在打假球啊"},{"start":17246.064,"end":17255.032,"text":"委員長你剛剛已經講了嘛7月16號我們上個會期的最後一天所值那個組決議處理的時候我們來看一下會議記錄主席說報告院會現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有異議"},{"start":17261.837,"end":17289.727,"text":"沒有人有異議啊民進黨沒有半個人有異議啊當天的現況是所有黨團都甲級動員113席立法委員全都坐在座位上民進黨沒有任何人有異議照案通過臺灣民眾黨的附帶決議請問院會有無異議沒有異議所以換言之連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對或者說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格啊那現在"},{"start":17291.072,"end":17304.653,"text":"你會不會覺得有點像被放生的感覺民進黨的委員他那個時候不敢有異議然後現在要嘛就跟你一戴一上要嘛就他乾脆不來也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購的價格的部分"},{"start":17306.858,"end":17332.186,"text":"我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了只是說不能現在調不能把虧底做給國民黨團民眾黨團絕對不是我從來沒有這種想法我也希望你不要有這個想法我的想法就是說我在這一個政策推動之下會不會造成我們現在原來的政策有所"},{"start":17333.306,"end":17335.967,"text":"其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整我已經預期你會這樣講了但是我們現在看的是方方面面這也是你是身為一個農業部部長你應該要看到的"},{"start":17357.179,"end":17357.199,"text":"好"},{"start":17386.348,"end":17396.975,"text":"最後我想你是鐵板一塊部長抱歉我最後一分鐘稍微已經站起來我只是提一下這個是一個新的展覽你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題"},{"start":17399.106,"end":17417.159,"text":"這個展覽呢它其實在其他國家已經有十幾年了不過呢也有很多的獸醫師會認為是說這其實對於魚類的健康是不利就是說因為它你看起來它很漂亮沒有錯我也覺得說一看畫面很漂亮但是它在裡面是有很多的光線很多的玻璃那其實"},{"start":17418.44,"end":17444.414,"text":"還有一些是閃光那強光跟閃光其實對魚是不利的再者藍色紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的那現在這個展覽好像是已經有經過相關的許可了那我們也有去查相關的一個法令規定就是說動物展演的部分其實要嘛就受地方政府的一個許可要嘛就是中央政府的公告免許可"},{"start":17446.038,"end":17446.518,"text":"臺北市政府"},{"start":17461.445,"end":17463.187,"text":"因為本席過去到現在對於動物展演的部分特別希望能夠加強我們的相關法律"},{"start":17488.328,"end":17496.613,"text":"所以後續我也會再跟我們農業部再來請教未來有沒有在法令上改進的空間我們一起來努力好不好謝謝部長剛剛講的斑斑有牛奶這些問題本席建議的這個牛奶卷就可以解決所有的問題請你趕快的研議好 謝謝接下來請麥義珍委員質詢"},{"start":17523.479,"end":17526.54,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請陳部長委員好部長好 大家都關心這一題我們農業天然災害救助辦法同一個產業就是一年可能申請一次但是我們每年颱風災害都是好幾次"},{"start":17552.968,"end":17557.37,"text":"所以剛才也聽很多的委員去詢問所以我們的部長也有說要修正要研議所以現在我們的災害已經達到6億新台幣6億"},{"start":17568.235,"end":17568.475,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":17584.969,"end":17585.189,"text":"請教一下"},{"start":17602.213,"end":17614.249,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是我們農業天然災害不會因為他的身份跟他的族群而有差別對沒有身份族群但是因為全部都中文但是做農的因為從事農業他絕對不是"},{"start":17617.453,"end":17636.073,"text":"自己一個人做農業沒有跟其他的左右鄰居做互動所以相對的我們在天然栽培公告的時候不是只公告一小區一定是一個鄉鎮為單位去公告的時候那相對的這些公告的時候其實他如果中一個作物其他的鄰居應該可以做協助啦"},{"start":17636.773,"end":17639.757,"text":"這個鄰居協助是你說的嗎還是說真的是鄰居都有幫忙協助你知道說怎麼樣去協助嗎我們希望說我們的農業很多都是我們現在高齡的我們的"},{"start":17652.35,"end":17659.034,"text":"的長輩去做或者是我們的新住民有去做所以這個部分我們是不是我們農業部這邊有個團隊是去協助不只是在網路宣傳或者在我們的公所去宣傳這樣的話達不到這個效果我的意思是這樣子所以要希望有一個團隊但是你講的都是別人幫忙不是你的團隊親自幫忙"},{"start":17679.424,"end":17697.216,"text":"我想這個在整個的一個天然災害公告了以後所有的啟動都是縣市政府跟他的公所的部分那您剛才所提到的就是說當新住民不認識中文字的時候那相對的希望有一個輔導的一個系統那我個人認為就是"},{"start":17698.257,"end":17703.879,"text":"這個不是你解決的方式啦因為左右鄰居大家都會有人會協助如果他真的是有需要但是他有需要他也找不到左右鄰居去協助的時候但是你講的是別人協助我要的是你如何去協助"},{"start":17726.548,"end":17726.568,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":17751.856,"end":17771.966,"text":"請你協助我們的農民不管是新住民還是我們的農民是不是有這樣的去協助因為那個對象我們不知道他在哪邊所以最好的方法最有效的方法就是第一個就是鄰居來協助第二個就是公所那邊他可以去問公所那公所我相信公所一定會很樂意來協助的"},{"start":17774.386,"end":17795.25,"text":"我們知道這是公所會去協助但是說我們這邊完全沒有一套說協助因為政府有這樣的預算但是我們要如何去協助公所他們有沒有主動去協助還是說你就是說我們的鄰居去協助我們公所去協助是你說的算還是說他們真的有這樣做第二個就是說我們的保險我們希望說我們"},{"start":17803.031,"end":17807.853,"text":"農民也除了申請災害的補助還有我們的保險也要有完善讓大家覺得說這個保險你要去剛才我們的其他委員也有詢問你說要如何去修改對我們農民最有幫助嘛 對不對但是連現在你們在推這個保險的時候"},{"start":17827.099,"end":17834.001,"text":"你們都沒有去說哪一個對農民有幫助嗎等大家要提出來的時候你們才覺得要去修改連我們農業部這邊都不清楚了你怎麼讓我們這些農民他覺得買這個保險對他有幫助的最清楚的所以我們要的是你"},{"start":17847.145,"end":17858.114,"text":"一定要去說事先要瞭解也要知道我們的農民的需求不是透過各個委員來找出你的問題你來去改善這樣子的話就申請補助也申請不到保險也不完整這樣對我們的農民的保障在哪裡這個就是你的責任希望"},{"start":17868.523,"end":17890.939,"text":"我們的農業部在一週內給我完善的策略還有如何對我們的農民更有保障保險的部分也是以上報告 謝謝我跟委員報告一個禮拜可能可不可以大概一個月因為我們的農業保險是要去做整體的檢討我不會去要強調說要把17%拉的多高我希望每一張保單"},{"start":17892.04,"end":17902.206,"text":"重新檢討以後會讓更多的農民來保這才是我們的目的而不是純粹只是追求那個覆蓋率的部分因為覆蓋率對我們沒有意義所以這個部分可能一個禮拜沒有辦法做到對保險就是要有幫助才要去保那是說沒有幫助就大家不願意保"},{"start":17912.512,"end":17912.532,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":17941.896,"end":17942.838,"text":"請徐富奎委員質詢請陳部長"},{"start":17964.52,"end":17982.196,"text":"部長辛苦了首先也要感謝部長我們這次山陀爾風災第一事件部長這個院長跟部長又到屏東來關心我們整個這個受損的狀況那也給予很多的這個第一線的一個協助不過在這邊還是有幾個問題要請部長來幫忙我想部長這個山陀爾颱風之後我們有一些養豬的"},{"start":17990.503,"end":17991.784,"text":"對,我跟委員報告,這個部分我們已經準備開了,就是說針對這個"},{"start":18014.933,"end":18016.254,"text":"部長什麼時候可以來公告?"},{"start":18056.982,"end":18072.469,"text":"平東的部分已經公告了嘛是不是那畜牧的部分可能會先看個案是什麼樣的情況再去處理他不用公告的方式去處理好因為這個平東也是有很多的養豬戶大家有沒有在等這個消息"},{"start":18074.1,"end":18100.869,"text":"另外針對剛剛也有很多的委員甚至上次部長到屏東我們很多的農民第一次就是直接反映的這個所謂的這個同歷年一次救助這個問題老闆娘這真的要再幫你拜託我們那7月份的這個楷米重創一次好不容易重新再把這個果樹再種下去現在山坨也還迷迷茫茫今天可以救助一百年這叫農民是在欲哭無淚"},{"start":18102.193,"end":18102.373,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18119.309,"end":18140.102,"text":"有時候你的災害太接近了跟差了好幾個月它的樣貸可能都不一樣甚至於還有跨年的部分所以可能還要再針對一些細項不過代言著我們會從農民的角度去思考當他本身如果受到災害以後"},{"start":18140.982,"end":18169.085,"text":"在經過一段時間的時候,特別是在開花期以後的這些時間,對產業有影響的話,我們會再開第二次的天然災救助給他們。大原則是這樣子,但是不同的反向。因為針對我們屏東的玉荷包也是一個很有名的農作物,但是這個玉荷包剩了差不多五年,才可以收成。如果一次受到颱風之後,有可能這五、六年都沒辦法收成,那針對這樣子的一個作物,有沒有辦法來做怎麼樣一個"},{"start":18170.699,"end":18196.692,"text":"長久性的一個補救的一個措施我們可能沒有辦法我們因為我們在天然災害救助大概是以一年的生產成本的百分之二的他是屬於救助的救助的精神那如果說損壞到他要變成必須重重變成五年才能才能收穫的這個部分我覺得現在我沒辦法回答您這個會長會怎麼做不過我想我們這是另外一個產業輔導"},{"start":18197.873,"end":18209.619,"text":"不能用直接用救助的方式去處理那部長就請用產業輔導的方式看一下怎麼去處理因為這個也是一個很多人都在重視那最後主席再借我一點時間就針對嬰兒番這個移儲的一個嚴重的問題"},{"start":18213.601,"end":18240.575,"text":"我想部長這個尤其恆春半島因為我們有涉及到所謂的一個林業署也有國產署甚至肯管處的一個土地管轄的一個問題我知道你們有努力在做但是問題針對其他的部會我們沒有一個統合的機制造成你如果這邊移除之後另外的銀河灣有可能又重新種子飄過去就生起來了所以這個生生不息造成一個生態的危害"},{"start":18241.864,"end":18260.103,"text":"本席是認為我們應該要組成一個國家來檢視這個、處理這個問題。部長的意見?委員報告就是我們在銀河灣在處理的時候其實我們有一個團隊包括其他的部會都有一個集中的那也跟委員報告就是說本來銀河灣大概在恆春地區大概5400多公頃"},{"start":18261.664,"end":18279.739,"text":"然後到了去年我們現在剩下大概1000多公頃要移除啦那1000多公頃裡面國有林大概是100多我想我們會處理那私有林的部分就是會跟廠商這邊看要怎麼樣去處理所以我們一定會組成一個跨部會的團隊一起來努力啦"},{"start":18281.46,"end":18301.022,"text":"我還是提醒就是說因為我們現在的策略是把它移除之後種苗嘛,種樹好多種嘛有另外一個說法,他們認為你如果砍完之後它的毒素增加反而不利於原本你們種的樹苗的生長所以他們認為是用自然演化的一個方式來取代,這也是另外一個"},{"start":18302.223,"end":18327.215,"text":"對,我想不同的意見我們都會去經過專家討論,包括你如果炒不好看它也會發出來嘛,類似這個,我想我們會,我們也聽到很多不同的意見啦,那我想林務署這邊會跟專家去討論一個最有效的方法,能夠讓它不會砍了以後又增加更多的這個小苗,這個部分我們謝謝委員的提醒,我們會來處理。對,我們的目標還是希望趕快移除,讓我們原本的生態能夠恢復啦,好謝謝。"},{"start":18336.232,"end":18337.154,"text":"請黃建斌委員質詢有請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":18355.765,"end":18373.147,"text":"委員 部長我們今天討論的是調整公糧的這個議題那在談論這個議題之前本席還是繼續延續上我們之前的這個山頭颱風造成農損的問題那這次山頭颱風其實它不僅僅是在南韋地區造成的這個傷害"},{"start":18373.787,"end":18398.248,"text":"因為它連日的豪大雨對我們這個池上關山地區的稻米造成極大傷害我們依據關山政工所進行農損調查的部分看到我們部分農田它剛剛結碎稻米剛結碎就發生這個稻埔泡水的情況可能會影響部分二期稻作的收成那出戶稻埔的這個田區至少將近在兩成左右那依據我們農業部這個稻米保險的規範那邊均"},{"start":18400.169,"end":18415.45,"text":"若產量減損在單一鄉鎮有兩成以上的話,就會啟動我們的保險機制,這樣立法會是一公頃萬倍空,對不對?那但是經過現在政府初步的統計,可能離這個立法的標準還有一點點的差距,那受災災民他可能沒有辦法申請立法。"},{"start":18416.701,"end":18440.561,"text":"部長,中農一年的課真兩期,官真池上是臺東有機稻作的種植區,它的工作成本本來就遠遠高於西部慣行農法的區域,這對農民稻農的損害極大。部長您是農業的大家長,也請您苦農民所苦,放寬規範,讓我們稻農可以獲得利培金來度過這次難關。"},{"start":18443.763,"end":18445.484,"text":"謝謝部長正面的回應喔部長"},{"start":18475.121,"end":18497.265,"text":"我們這是客廳吃飯本來閒話就乾口我想這次會提到公糧調漲這件事情其實也是希望讓農民能夠增加他的收益我想這件事情大家都是支持因為他們這麼辛苦我們可以給他照顧我相信大家都支持那當然在過程裡面也聽到部長跟其他委員提到有許多問題會衍生那這邊本是要跟部長來討論就是說我們台東這次供應的問題"},{"start":18500.486,"end":18501.387,"text":"臺東花東地區是臺灣最大的有機有膳到作耕作區"},{"start":18517.309,"end":18534.936,"text":"臺灣的米好價是因為它品質好相對它的成本也比較高那我們的米廠其實都是以質計價然後嚴格分級一斤米、二斤米、三斤米這樣所以價格比較高所以高公糧會比較小小看就是低於我們西部的這些稻農"},{"start":18535.876,"end":18538.057,"text":"我給委員報告就是說其實臺東就是一個很好的例子就是說因為他大部分都不繳公糧"},{"start":18564.569,"end":18587.407,"text":"但是我們怎麼樣讓有機有膳的這些稻米能夠繼續的去精進所以後面的就是牽扯到後面的輔導措施啦對啦輔導措施這個措施要出來對這個部分我想我們會去研究因為我們都是希望站在農民這一邊但是我們的情況有稍許不同那這部分要請部裡面這邊來多花心思想一下未來怎麼補助的東部的地區特別是"},{"start":18588.288,"end":18590.11,"text":"謝謝部長的正面回應。接下來我要講第二個台中的農產,第一個獨立美衣瓦第一就是奢侈"},{"start":18613.223,"end":18636.753,"text":"全世界98個社區在台灣全台灣98個社區在台灣那台東因為這個濾金養活很多的家庭那台東縣政府其實也花很多的經費在做行銷這一塊也花很多心思那不過其實現在目前台灣的私家出口還是主要以中國大陸為主那我們其實也提過是不是要分散投資不要把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡面開發新的市場提升本身的"},{"start":18637.433,"end":18658.116,"text":"品質跟加工這一塊都是未來要因應整個因兩岸政策不穩定影響的這個造成果農影響的這個生計的問題吧,對吧?這我們之前討論過嘛,那我們過去這幾年花了大概將近5億在農產的施加加工上,但目前還沒有看到比較有效的成果"},{"start":18658.777,"end":18685.403,"text":"那我們今後如何讓我們加工去化過多的產量,讓達到我們鮮果限流市場的功效,農業部必須來思考這個問題。因為當我們的鮮果的數量如果在限流情況之下,我們可以有效的維持啊。那未來如果國外的市場受到一些什麼政治因素,種種因素有影響的時候,我們不至於導致我們鮮果過量,然後價格崩盤嘛,對吧?"},{"start":18686.343,"end":18715.434,"text":"瞭解我跟委員報告齁就是鳳梨釋迦是一個比較特殊的這些品項那第一個就是它生性的部分在其他的國家過往都沒有銷售的紀錄那我們在檢疫的部分我們必須因為鮮果的部分要經過市場進入的檢疫的談判但是加工的部分冷凍的部分就可以所以過去幾年特別是這一兩年之內我們針對冷凍加工包括現在我們也有一些我們的加工廠變成果泥那就是"},{"start":18716.174,"end":18733.043,"text":"時間的關係,會後可以把你們相關的措施跟本辦公室來報告最後我再借用一點點時間,剛剛許副委員提到關於殷樂歡的問題,其實台東也有除此之外,台東還有面臨另外一個問題,就是施走安修木"},{"start":18733.723,"end":18757.149,"text":"他比英文更加的頑強他的侵略性跟他的生命之強悍很難去跟足這個部分也希望農業部能夠來整合包括國產署或是領務局或是社會主要局看怎麼樣來解決這個外來物種侵襲的問題那這部分也請部長這邊跟會裡面部裡面來討論跟本席分工事這邊來報告"},{"start":18758.254,"end":18759.995,"text":"月言之委員不在,請徐宇珍委員質詢。"},{"start":18791.772,"end":18792.074,"text":"農業部陳副部長"},{"start":18805.037,"end":18819.913,"text":"今天我是針對就是農業部針對立法院決議的公糧收購的這個提高價格的這個報告要來替這個農民請命因為其實目前我想聽下來是目前農業部並沒有要編列這個預算的計畫嗎是嗎"},{"start":18824.329,"end":18848.067,"text":"對我想公糧我的意思是說我不是說以後都不調整公糧但是以現在最好的情況因為我在調整公糧的時候我必須衡量我現在的政策會不會造成現在的政策的衝突所以我們發現說我們現在的4選3大區輪座如果搭配一級二轉3加3會更支持我們的產地價格如果直接貿然的再提高的話"},{"start":18849.228,"end":18873.07,"text":"會有矛盾的現象所以我們今年度我們先不編但是後續我們會針對我們的推動的成效再來檢討部長不過所以您的意思是也沒有反對這個公糧收購但是今年暫時不編要看滾動的計畫不過以這個部分來說其實農民會覺得很受傷因為他們覺得說公糧收購對他們是最直接的一個"},{"start":18874.051,"end":18874.391,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18893.129,"end":18893.149,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":18913.616,"end":18940.129,"text":"新資也要調漲第二年還有勞工的基本工資跟時薪也都提高那既然政府說希望要全民來共享經濟建設的成果那這個部分好像農民都沒有被照顧到也會讓農民覺得是二等公民我想不會的我想政府上面包括特別是農業部照顧我們農民是我們的責任也是我們的使命那以剛才講的就是說公糧提高的話事實上只有部分的農民是受益的特別是剛才"},{"start":18941.625,"end":18965.055,"text":"東部的地區你如果去東部的話大部的農民都反對其實部長既然是雖然有部分的農民所以但代表這些部分農民就是還需要幫助所以我們才有這個公糧收購的這樣的一個政策那尤其是我看到你們報告裡面寫說公糧價格的收購因為13年因為要如果造成提高公糧價格的話會造成成本的提高嗎不是面積的提高"},{"start":18967.017,"end":18985.435,"text":"還有就是提高生產成本應該是在你們的第4頁第6頁第4點會提高生產成本有提到這點不過現在跟我們理解的其實相反我們為什麼會提這個要提高公糧收購的價格就是因為過去13年沒有調漲成本還是一直在提高他們的各張市場還是一直提高"},{"start":18985.775,"end":19012.045,"text":"所以我們才會提出要提高公糧收購的這個價格所以這樣的說法其實是矛盾的而且讓農民沒辦法接受那既然部長覺得說提高公糧收購的價格現在沒有辦法去執行那是不是有可能就是農民比如說我們現在是不是可以釋出一些農地來去種電讓我們的農民的這個價格因為種電大概可以每公頃大概可以收租40萬"},{"start":19013.565,"end":19014.565,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們現在開放的是漁電工生"},{"start":19029.062,"end":19053.588,"text":"那農電共生的部分我們並沒有開那最主要是說農電共生本身因為露天作物它需要的陽光的強度它都必須要去考慮那以現在來講我們也啟動了我們的所有的試驗單位針對農電共生之下的一些作物的影響部長 拋出這樣的議題只是要讓就是部長對 部長了解說說農民真的很辛苦"},{"start":19053.888,"end":19064.577,"text":"我了解我可能有一個是不利耕種的地我什麼都不用做我一公頃就可以補助40萬辛苦工作的農民我們現在只不過要提高公糧收購價格卻不行所以說我只是要拋出這樣的議題讓農業部來去正視這個問題那當然了我在這邊也是提出一個建議讓部長"},{"start":19072.023,"end":19096.558,"text":"思考看看是否可行就是說我們也考量到產業的一個長久發展跟農業的預算有限那是不是可以因為你這邊有提到這個123的政策大概3年內會提高到股市場價格3元你預估是這樣子的一個成效那我們假設這個成效是真的能夠達到的話那是不是有可能我們公糧收購先提高2元"},{"start":19097.719,"end":19114.281,"text":"然後給你們3年的時間去完成這個123的政策那如果可以提高3元剛好就是5元是不是有可能來做這樣子的研究很實際的說明就是現在的5元跟我們現在的其他的政策是會互相"},{"start":19115.464,"end":19115.624,"text":"進行報告．"},{"start":19131.451,"end":19131.471,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":19150.555,"end":19173.657,"text":"部長一定跟我們一樣都是很希望照顧農民為農民來去爭取最大的權益那是不是所有可能能夠照顧農民的方案我們是不是都不要放棄能夠用這樣的一個方式那因為既然這是立法院的決議我們也希望能夠這個農業部能夠尊重我們這個立法委員的這樣子的一個決議那用什麼樣的方式來去達到讓農民感受到農業部的照顧也感受到全民對農民的這個照顧這樣可以嗎"},{"start":19176.139,"end":19176.399,"text":"請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":19208.114,"end":19208.895,"text":"農業部114年度總預算案"},{"start":19229.074,"end":19254.135,"text":"總總額含所有基金是多少經費?那113年的總預算案又是多少?112年又是多少?請部長簡單說明我講我們114年編列的是1692萬含所有基金嗎?基金是747億但是有一部分的公務是撥補的部分所以加起來可動資的大概是2000多2000零多少億嗎?"},{"start":19255.496,"end":19260.418,"text":"2034億2034億嘛 是這是預算案嘛對不對 是那113年的預算案是多少113年的預算是兩千我看兩千一千九百一千五百五十億"},{"start":19272.826,"end":19289.971,"text":"對1951億是預算案還是預算多少法定預算是2089億2089億對所以現在是要跟委員會報告是說因為114年還沒有審查嘛對不對是所以他是預算案那有可能審查之後會低於113年度是不是這樣"},{"start":19290.831,"end":19317.086,"text":"有可能因為計畫有一部分是新增的有一部分是那你既然是新增就是會增加預算出來那為什麼還會低於113年度但是相對有些預算是期程結束了結束了以後有一些新增的我要表達就是說以你當了這個部長之後照理講應該會有一些對農民有幫助對農業有所支持的新增項目那基本上是應該增加"},{"start":19317.686,"end":19344.014,"text":"那至於應該有的到一個期限裡面需要去減少的或是不再編入的這我沒有意見但整體來講農委會變成農業部之後就是一個部就是一個大部就是台灣宣示對台灣的農業對台灣的農民的支持在組織架構的提升裡面應該從預算面會看到有更多支持農業跟支持農民的相關的積極作為才對嘛所以照理講你14年不應該低於13啊"},{"start":19346.202,"end":19358.547,"text":"我們整個都不應該低於這樣我們公務有增加83億左右公務有增加的部分那因為基金到時候是看各基金的用途所以剛才講的就是說114年大概2034億因為時間有限我沒有辦法跟部長詢問細節不然我就隨便叫一個署起來問你114年對照1134是怎樣的預算知道嗎?署長知道嗎?"},{"start":19371.943,"end":19380.808,"text":"那個公共預算多大概7億就是增加那個我現在講總統統就好了你農糧署114年度的總預算是多少錢?多少經費?總預算你自己數多少錢你不知道你就吃爛了好那113的預算案是多少?"},{"start":19394.474,"end":19420.835,"text":"你還沒有當署長你不清楚你馬上對照一下好不好如果你減少的減少什麼部分給委員會相關的資料給我們做參考嘛好不好我為什麼要提到這個事情啦我還特別強調變成農業部之後那整個格局對農業對農民的照顧絕對要跟以前不一樣嘛部長還沒有回答到1喔甚至還1我都還沒有問啦我是希望你們細看一下做相關的一些盤查跟做比對啦那第二件事情"},{"start":19421.335,"end":19450.38,"text":"我可以特別跟部長來討論這個天然災害救助項目的金額這個部分我之前也有新聞到貴部去然後私底下我也跟部長反映有很多的項目基本上是有蠻大的一些落差啦齁豬瓦會災害的豬瓦每一公頃4千蜂箱全會一個補助650蚂蜜一千塊鹵羊一隻兩千啦齁然後白色的肉雞一隻二十這個多久沒有調整了這一件事情"},{"start":19450.851,"end":19476.457,"text":"那第二張我們這幾年來有很多次的去做相關的這些因應跟調整有確實都有這是我就不再贅述齁從106民進黨在住執政的時候106 109 110 11一直到112都有做相關調整而且我們的天然災救助辦法裡面有特別強調每年檢討一次的那你的每年檢討一次是年中年初年尾也不曉得然後再來你再看這一張"},{"start":19478.066,"end":19486.409,"text":"分野化溫格在106年的時候補助的額度是11萬5千,113年的時候5月20條了,變成11萬8千給三千塊一公頃。部長再看一下布拉伊為什麼20萬馬上跳到42萬一公頃。"},{"start":19496.983,"end":19504.851,"text":"上面,等一下,上面的10班、9班麻痺就對了,38萬一公頃,來到100均三里算是變40幾萬,加4萬。麻痺就對了36萬,變40萬,加4萬。現在獨獨不拉比,20萬一公頃,變做40幾萬。為什麼分月月11萬5,讓你們調料變11萬8?"},{"start":19519.653,"end":19527.935,"text":"有符合農民的整個、漁民的整個這樣的成本然後配合這整個物價的這樣的評估去做相關調整嗎?"},{"start":19530.43,"end":19554.408,"text":"我要向委員報告就是針對現在目前的不管是農林漁畜的這些產品我已經要求他們在11月底之前要重新去做檢討包括成本的調查因為你成本如果沒有調查在紙上作業用這樣處理就有可能發生到委員剛才提到的有一些條都非常大有些東西幾乎沒什麼條所以我希望他們是根據真正的生產成本"},{"start":19555.229,"end":19567.685,"text":"11月底之前我們會去調整我們明年1月的話就會去公告重新去公告新的這個制度以後我們會把這個法納入就是說每年的1月間會公告年度的這個天然災害救助的這個標準"},{"start":19569.308,"end":19585.482,"text":"對,項目很多,我只是用幾項給部長做參考嘛,對不對?啊這照理講,怎麼會有double的這樣一個成長?啊怎麼會有不到1%的成長?部長你在看這一個,農作物的育苗作業啦齁,全島2500,然後全島變3000,這是106年對照103年。屋頂摧毀,一坪550,現在變成增加50塊,600。"},{"start":19593.664,"end":19612.382,"text":"這個合乎現狀嗎?還有很多時間的關係我沒辦法一一細究請部長是不是要求重新盤整重新比照重新看現在的狀態應該如何補助才讓農民的損失真的是政府的德政可以減少他們這樣的一個受損"},{"start":19613.183,"end":19616.164,"text":"最後我再請教部長一些事情,謝謝主席齁剛剛有委員特別提到灌區內跟灌區外我請教一下全國80萬公頃的"},{"start":19639.582,"end":19639.822,"text":"我們增加多少預算?"},{"start":19677.113,"end":19691.808,"text":"我要提醒部長喔這個如果完全都沒有增加你們是交代不過去這個完全不增加然後我們未來你要去推國土計畫你就沒有辦法推阿"},{"start":19693.098,"end":19694.02,"text":"部長你會不會越來越辛苦"},{"start":19709.631,"end":19735.429,"text":"農我再度提醒了好不好這個預算真的不能減行政院有問題你要讓我們知道我們要來處理我跟委員報告就是在新增的農水路的部分大概光整個的資産防洪跟農水路的部分大概就增加了50億跟50億大概有100億的額度那裡面因為有灌區內有灌區外還有一些那個那個籌劃區裡面的東西那我想我會謝謝委員的提醒我會針對"},{"start":19736.249,"end":19762.699,"text":"後面的該要去執行的經費到位以後還有實際指示的一個進度好 最後那個農機展農機展從蘇志文前縣長整個催生一直到現在辦了18年農糧署扮演什麼角色這個可不可以請農長署署長來說明我們給予那個活動的補助好 那所有我們叫做指導單位對不對對"},{"start":19765.259,"end":19777.822,"text":"去年辦個農機展燒了20多台汽車今年會不會再發生指導單位要不要見到監督職者整個場地要不要去事先了解"},{"start":19780.041,"end":19798.343,"text":"我跟委員報告就是過往也許我們在補助的時候只是提供經費而已但是實際上的規劃沒有參與協助但是我覺得這是也是不對的啦就是說當你經費下去就是希望活動做得好那相對的場地的規劃也要有一個完善的一個特別是在安全上面的一個規劃"},{"start":19799.204,"end":19827.676,"text":"那之前我想有很多地方辦大型活動都會去參與規劃那我這邊後續也要求農政署其實在規劃的時候不能只出錢啊也要實際的去協助對部長我只是提醒任何一筆從農業部補助到地方政府的只要錢下去有補助的農業部都有一定的責任是都有一定的責任是那個環部看板後面絕對會寫指導單位寫補助單位但是有的很多補助下去也都沒有看到你們任何單位是是要卸責嗎"},{"start":19829.642,"end":19848.956,"text":"請部長詳查是太多的案例謝謝謝謝主席請羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在請王玉敏王玉敏王玉敏委員不在請武力華委員諮詢謝謝主席有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":19868.291,"end":19888.163,"text":"前天我看到一則有關公糧的新聞我相信應該您也知道就是有農會的理事長呢他利用人頭農民去申報公糧然後去用較低的成本買這個稻穀充當公糧繳納之後賺取那個價差那為什麼"},{"start":19891.505,"end":19919.976,"text":"其實理由很簡單嘛殺頭生意有人做所以這個部分農民他繳交公糧的意願高就是因為我們公糧的價格比較好也引發我們的政府大概平均這些年每一年將近120億去辦理公糧收購那當然我們不是去反對這樣的事但是我們會這樣子做是因為他的本"},{"start":19920.476,"end":19936.112,"text":"原頭是國內的稻米供過於求所以我在這個地方其實是要救教一個問題請部長您看一下齁我相信您都念得出這些稻作的名稱齁小米油盲"},{"start":19937.173,"end":19962.862,"text":"紅藜 樹豆那這一些呢在我們原住民來講都是我們的主食你可以看得到 豐收然後納入糧倉供給一年的所需可是我現在要問的就是你的公糧不是我的公糧欸我要請教一下部長為什麼水稻要叫公糧原住民的這些主食要叫雜糧"},{"start":19965.387,"end":19981.878,"text":"委員報告那個公糧的公的意思就是說由公部門去收購的糧的稻米叫做公糧那其實在學名上面沒有所謂的公糧這個字但是雜糧是通指其他的這些暗做的那我就是要我就是要講"},{"start":19983.539,"end":20010.436,"text":"你看看我們原住民齁你看生番熟番連吃的東西也有歧視矮化的意思但是我不是說因為這是歷史的成因歷史的成阿那山地平地化的過程中我們除了喪失領土除了喪失生活方式喪失文化語言你看連我們吃的東西都也可以喪失欸這很了不起欸"},{"start":20012.718,"end":20037.475,"text":"我請部長您看一下當然我這個圖做得不好我要講的是說你看我們主要在輔導稻作的時候當然很漂亮可是台灣是一個多元文化而且我們講究生物多樣性如果這樣的一個農田有紅藜 有樹稻 有小米 有等等等"},{"start":20038.854,"end":20038.874,"text":"委員長"},{"start":20056.84,"end":20083.255,"text":"我想我們對原住民的輔導其實有不同的面向從技術端就是將原住民原來的技術做一些改良而已就是依照他的地景跟他的文化那這個部分我們在所謂的改良場有一個團隊我們就是原力團隊那那個原力團隊就是針對原住民部落的在地的這些作物去處理那第二個部分就是後端的市場的媒合那是更重要的"},{"start":20083.615,"end":20083.795,"text":"現在做得好嗎?"},{"start":20104.422,"end":20114.805,"text":"我想現在慢慢的特別是在針對有一些原住民剝落包括小米那我跟部長說齁其實我要講的是說我們這種是點滴式的輔導阿你應該清楚我在講什麼是我了解原米粿也好農糧署也好水保署也好對有在協助但是點滴式的輔導"},{"start":20127.318,"end":20149.906,"text":"他不是長期 不是永續 不是全盤所以我在這邊其實是要講另外一個問題因為你看這個是東埔那個地方在做小米的富裕可是我們發現我們好多的小米在富裕的時候竟然是由美國的總原庫帶回來的這是蠻悲哀的一件事情"},{"start":20150.866,"end":20171.204,"text":"難道原住民族想要在自己的土地用自己的方式種自己的作物有那麼困難嗎我們現在花很多錢在附贈我們的語言但是我們有很多的東西需要附贈回來因為那個才是真正符合在替我們所需要的這些所以呢我們原民會"},{"start":20172.265,"end":20172.505,"text":"部長您的態度如何"},{"start":20192.699,"end":20193.279,"text":"政府現在已經結束原住民轉型正義委員會"},{"start":20222.839,"end":20251.404,"text":"因為總統說要讓所有的轉型正義要走入各部會去落實這個就是一個具體的轉型正義對不對我希望回到剛才的那個圖片我們的山林我們的田野它是生物多樣性的它是美麗多元的我們台灣配得這樣的風景好不好那我相信農業部部長您絕對有這樣的能力帶領大家可以嗎"},{"start":20252.504,"end":20252.524,"text":"陳婉嫻議員"},{"start":20272.046,"end":20288.77,"text":"當今發言的委員除了不在場外其餘都均已發言完畢我們詢答結束書面質詢跟未答覆的部分請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢大家辛苦了現在散會"},{"start":20304.424,"end":20310.176,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}