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104年12月16號馬英九公佈施行林江一主委很快的在105年5月3號卸任之前喔訂了部落公法人設置辦法"},{"start":209.775,"end":237.65,"text":"然後你們也預告了105年5月3號林江一主委做了預告蔡總統就任預告之後沒有幾天蔡總統就任然後8月1號蔡總統承諾部落公法人的制度已經推動上路大家都非常高興有了法律又有草案了"},{"start":238.905,"end":260.905,"text":"然後一將主委在106年10月27號也做了預告做了一些修正做了一個廣泛的徵詢意見之後就預告囉都預告了現在還事辦什麼呢對不對還事辦什麼呢都有啊都有草案啊趕快發布才對啊因為"},{"start":262.503,"end":290.585,"text":"你說事辦 你也要先依當初的依原計法第二條之一發佈這個部落公法人的設置辦法如果你想事辦 你可以在這個辦法裡面加一條先事辦你可以加一條事辦的公法人才可以成為公法人啊"},{"start":291.738,"end":314.569,"text":"你是一個公法人的部落你事辦才有一個成效到底是怎麼樣啊你才有部落公法人的前者前者跟前例跟義務才能夠才才真正的才能夠達到事辦的效果不然的話沒有部落公法人"},{"start":315.851,"end":342.854,"text":"你這個沒有辦法 你就沒有法規依據嘛你用那個事辦計畫他就不是公法人啊沒有公法人的地位沒有這個潛力義務你怎麼事辦 淪為空談嘛就是原來那是部落嘛你還是現在的部落沒有地位你事辦什麼呢"},{"start":343.959,"end":372.612,"text":"你沒有譴責啊 你怎麼事辦所以還是要趕快發布部落公法人設置辦法啊 主委趕快發布我們會就是說謝謝委員這個指教啦要勇敢的跟這個主委講過去我當企劃處處長也是很勇敢的跟主委講啊對不對 我當副主委的時候也是很勇敢的"},{"start":375.148,"end":400.125,"text":"不要怕就送上去就不用送啊我說那個亞波蘇洋送成何然後主委就把它發布不用送行政院呢授權給你呢這麼大譴責中華民國的法律給你這麼大的譴責又不敢奇怪了所以這個部分好我們接下來"},{"start":401.866,"end":430.098,"text":"所以當初因為有這樣的提案所以等一下我們預算提案解凍案的時候我們可以繼續討論好接下來這個禁法補償當初我提要追加預算而且還要求你1月31號以前要送到主計總處這個是考慮到立法院的會期啊那個曾主委立法院的會期啊"},{"start":430.868,"end":448.912,"text":"到這個月5月31號6月開始是休會還好我們上禮拜前幾天表決通過要延會到7月31號所以還有機會進法補償的追加預算的審查"},{"start":449.83,"end":478.322,"text":"那趕快送來在你的報告裡面提到你已經比我的比我的立法院所通過的結議預算案的解通案的結議慢了兩個月你是3月10號3月10號送到行政院你每天啊或是每個禮拜碰到行政院主席長還有這個院長跟他報告的這個急迫性啊不能9月怎麼發放"},{"start":480.575,"end":507.726,"text":"你7月30還要我們有研會啊不然的話你9月10月是立法院的總質詢的時間不會處理那個議案啊所以抓住這個時間趕快要求每個禮拜就跟那個主計長講可以嗎可以每個禮拜就跟他講不要一直躺在他的桌上他有退回嗎有沒有退回"},{"start":508.649,"end":537.474,"text":"還沒有退回沒有退回嘛對嘛沒有退回就要趕快這個是你要跟他講卓榮泰院長所承諾的啊對不對最佳預算是卓榮泰院長所承諾的嘛最後一個題目齁這個住宅啊原住民的專屬的社會住宅過去沒有住宅法的時候你看基隆1億當時啊81年啊1億多原住民的國宅啊"},{"start":538.342,"end":566.463,"text":"然後你看這個新店的中正原住民住宅兩億多的經費然後這個新三峽的兩億多的住宅然後汐止花東新村四億多這個是最快的邊公寓上直接買那個民間的集合式住宅這個是直接買喔"},{"start":567.677,"end":587.129,"text":"直接買民間的集合式住宅法那時候是沒有住宅法現在啊各位報告剛剛你講這個都是為了安置災民所做的一些一樣的做法一樣的做法我們看住宅法你先看住宅法第二條第四項"},{"start":588.342,"end":611.276,"text":"目的事業主管機關就是指中央人民會為了原住民主的教育語言文化的傳承發展需要要興建專攻原住民成都的社會住宅這個是法例105年等一下105年12月23號所明訂的原住民的現在都會期人口已經達到51.57%了你看"},{"start":617.461,"end":643.578,"text":"新北市台北市桃園市台中市原住民的自有住宅的比例這麼的低所以要新建或是買作為原住民的專攻的社會住宅這個是有法律的依據啊處長他想要說什麼目的事業主管機關是地方政府錯了"},{"start":645.202,"end":670.601,"text":"住宅法第二條寫得很清楚地方政府是什麼是主管機關啊他不是目的主委主管機關所以是延命會的責任這個我曾經執行國發會啊國發會說我執行國發會說要給你們機會修你們原住民的住宅四年計劃原住民族住宅四年計劃國發會說可以"},{"start":675.632,"end":694.119,"text":"國發會說可以他我質詢完之後馬上就發文給言明會啊主委3月21號我把國發會的承諾說要趕快他還說要看要快不然會來不及處長這個計劃說成何了沒有"},{"start":697.08,"end":725.897,"text":"包委員喔 社會住宅目前都是用融資來興建那因為目前地方政府提出的都是要中央全額補助所以我們沒有辦法 有沒有全額補助是另外可以談的至少你又有錢啦你連一塊錢都沒有融資平台本來就是用融資本來就金財源就會沒有問題那現在地方呢都是要求全額補助 其實中央沒有辦法國發會都同意這不是國發會說了就算 國發會都同意"},{"start":727.995,"end":753.982,"text":"針對在這個你們的四年計劃裡面原住民族住宅四年計劃現在整個地方就有新建住宅經費總共是72億總共是72億其實中央是沒有辦法全部都是應該用自廠性的方式來去做處理處長 曾主委我早上還質詢了國發會主委早上喔 今天早上喔"},{"start":755.285,"end":783.443,"text":"他說沒有問題可以趕快請嚴明會送來所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要最後最後剩下十秒鐘嚴明會委託政治大學已經完成的台灣原住民族正名運動政府體制文獻史料會篇主委就趕快印好不好好謝謝"},{"start":785.499,"end":785.763,"text":"謝謝 鄭天才委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1292,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時31分）主席、各位委員、曾主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的議程有業務報告、預算解凍案，還有法案審查，在你的業務報告裡特別提到原住民族自治法，標題是「原住民族自治法」，然後還要研擬原住民族自治法草案。這早就有了！原住民族自治法在我當企劃處處長的時候就草擬了，我當副主委的時候就完成了，還要研擬什麼呢？然後無論是陳水扁總統或是馬英九總統，都有送原住民族自治法到立法院，只不過送來時太晚了，沒有完成，因為屆期不連續，所以又退回去了。已經都有了，結果你們現在還在研擬？真的是一個……這個就不用回答了，但是要勸曾主委，不要像某人一樣連送草案到行政院都沒有，最起碼要送行政院，不要把責任全部扛在自己身上，好像很偉大，當初原住民族自治……其實大家都很關心部落公法人的試辦，請問這個經費要從哪裡支應？"],["曾主任委員智勇：從綜合規劃發展的經費，還有綜合發展基金來支應。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但你們的預算支用說明裡沒有這些啊！預算支用說明沒有這些，所以你們是挪用。好，接下來看原住民族基本法第四條，剛剛講了，要制定原住民族自治法，早就已經有草案了，要趕快送。很重要的是，今天談部落公法人，這是本席提案，然後立法院三讀通過的，原基法第二條之一寫得很清楚：部落經中央原住民族主管機關核定者，為公法人。所以要先依第二項訂定部落公法人組織設置辦法，這是法律授權中央原民會自己訂。所以104年12月16日馬英九總統公布施行後，林江義主委很快在105年5月3日卸任前訂定「部落公法人組織設置辦法」，然後105年5月3日林江義主委也做了預告。預告之後沒幾天，蔡總統就任，在8月1號承諾部落公法人的制度已經推動上路。大家都非常高興，有了法律也有了草案，後來夷將主委廣泛徵詢意見之後做了一些修正，在106年10月27日也預告了，現在還試辦什麼呢？對不對？還試辦什麼呢？都有啊！都有草案啊！要趕快發布才對啊！如果要試辦，也要先依原基法第二條之一的規定先發布「部落公法人組織設置辦法」，如果你想試辦，可以在這個辦法裡面加一條先試辦，你可以加一條，試辦的公法人才可以成為公法人，你是一個公法人的部落，你試辦才知道成效到底是怎麼樣，你才有部落公法人的權利跟義務，才能夠真正達到試辦的效果。不然的話，沒有部落公法人……你這個沒有法規依據，你用一個試辦計畫，它就不是公法人，沒有公法人的地位、沒有這個權利義務，你怎麼試辦？淪為空談嘛！就是原來的部落嘛！你還是現在的部落，沒有地位，你試辦什麼呢？你沒有權責啊！你怎麼試辦？所以還是要趕快發布部落公法人組織設置辦法，主委，趕快發布。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會就是說……謝謝委員的指教。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長，要勇敢的跟主委講，過去我當企劃處處長，也是很勇敢的跟主委講，對不對？我當副主委的時候也是很勇敢的，你不要怕，就送上去……這不用送啊！就呈核，然後主委就把它發布，不用送行政院耶！授權給你了，這麼大的權責，中華民國的法律給你這麼大的權責，又不敢，奇怪了，所以這個部分……當初因為有這樣的提案，所以等一下我們處理預算解凍案的時候，我們可以繼續討論。","接下來，禁伐補償當初我提要追加預算，而且還要求你1月31號以前要送到主計總處，這個是考慮到立法院的會期。曾主委，立法院的會期到這個月5月31號，6月開始是休會，還好我們前幾天表決通過要延會到7月31號，所以還有機會審查禁伐補償的追加預算，那趕快送來。在你的報告裡面提到，你已經比我立法院所通過的決議，預算案的解凍案的決議慢了2個月，你是3月10號送到行政院，你每天或是每個禮拜碰到行政院主計長還有院長，跟他報告這個的急迫性，不然你9月怎麼發放，你7月31號……還好我們有延會，不然的話，9月、10月是立法院總質詢的時間，不會處理議案，所以抓住這個時間趕快要求，你每個禮拜就跟主計長講，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：每個禮拜就跟他講，不要一直躺在他的桌上，他有退回嗎？有沒有退回？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有退回。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有退回，對嘛！沒有退回就要趕快，這個是……你要跟他講是卓榮泰院長所承諾的啊！對不對？追加預算是卓榮泰院長所承諾的嘛！","最後一個題目是住宅，原住民專屬的社會住宅，過去沒有住宅法的時候，基隆當時在81年花一億多蓋原住民的國宅，你看新店的中正原住民住宅，是兩億多的經費，然後是三峽兩億多的住宅、汐止花東新村四億多，這個是最快的，編夠預算直接買民間的集合式住宅，這個是直接買喔！直接買民間的集合式住宅，那時候是沒有住宅法，現在……"],["劉處長維哲：跟委員報告，剛剛你講的這個都是為了安置災民所做的一些的作法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一樣的作法、一樣的作法，我們看住宅法，你先看住宅法第二條第四項，目的事業主管機關就是指中央原民會，為了原住民族的教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，要興建專供原住民承租的社會住宅，這個是法律，105年12月23號所明定的。原住民在都會區的人口已經達到51.57%了，你看新北市、臺北市、桃園市、臺中市原住民自有住宅的比例這麼的低，所以要興建或是買作為原住民專供的社會住宅，這個是有法律的依據，處長他想要說什麼？目的事業主管機關是地方政府，錯了！住宅法第二條寫得很清楚，地方政府是什麼？是主管機關啊！它不是目的事業主管機關，所以是原民會的責任啦！我曾經質詢國發會說要給你們機會，修原住民族住宅4年計畫，國發會說可以，我質詢完之後馬上就發文給原民會，主委，上個月21號，我把國發會的承諾……他還說要看、要快，不然會來不及。處長，這個計畫陳核了沒有？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，社會住宅目前都是用融資來興建，因為目前地方政府提出的都是要中央全額補助，所以我們沒有辦法……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要不要全額補助是另外可以談的。"],["劉處長維哲：這個部分……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：至少你要有錢啦！你連一塊錢都沒有。"],["劉處長維哲：融資平臺本來就是用融資，財源就會沒有問題，那現在地方都是要求全額補助，其實中央……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長，國發會都同意……"],["劉處長維哲：這不是國發會說了就算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，國發會都同意針對你們的原住民族住宅4年計畫……"],["劉處長維哲：現在整個地方就有7件，住宅經費總共是72億。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我剛才講的那些費用，所以這個部分……"],["劉處長維哲：其實中央是沒有辦法全額補助，應該都是用自償性的方式來做處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長、曾主委，我早上還質詢了國發會主委，早上喔！今天早上喔！他說沒有問題，可以，趕快請原民會送來，好不好？所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要的……最後，剩下10秒鐘，原民會委託政治大學已經完成的「臺灣原住民族正名運動政府體制文獻史料彙編」，主委，這個趕快印，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位我們請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}