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後再請過水一下,請院長來協商。"},{"start":2187.226,"end":2209.009,"text":"今天既然已經到院長這邊來我期待就是說有關於選拔法院長主席協商一次沒有結論要怎麼處理我們就大家一起來面對況且這會期後面還有一些法案也必須要有固定的郵寄規則大概我的看頭就是講的是說"},{"start":2211.23,"end":2226.395,"text":"副總統都在對面,大家都是常常拭目相視,似是善意大家眼神都應該是期待有一個結果,今天不是要來學用,用就沒意思了,因為立法院根本沒有方釁"},{"start":2235.922,"end":2249.68,"text":"那對於院長、對於各黨團也非常不好所以今天加州的原則底下我先提出我一些看法我們看法不對的話或是信賴各位執政也沒有關係啦要談嘛"},{"start":2253.001,"end":2261.294,"text":"第一個當然重中之重在高雄市美在這裏原子能進化補償原子能進化補償從1982年神父時代就有了"},{"start":2269.342,"end":2297.433,"text":"當然為什麼要建法補償?因為有一些包括水源保護區、水庫等等150公尺內禁止砍伐所以有補償的問題那同時105年的時候通過法案也是原子能建法補償以及造林補助這兩個法是一起的所以他們讀書款都是從早期都兩萬塊一起的"},{"start":2298.694,"end":2307.968,"text":"當然也不能,後來有的話,簡東平議會提出來以後115年的時候,2015的時候,所以18號通過了,是變成傷害,這個我們認得"},{"start":2315.376,"end":2339.981,"text":"因為現在當然有人提案有五萬的有六萬,後來表決是六萬嘛我這邊看法就是說,我們先從一個法治國的概念來談啦我們所謂的法治國就是說,權力分顏者依然依照憲法,幼十二條"},{"start":2341.121,"end":2358.872,"text":"一、立法院、立法院委員、一集、一三條、一三條法律案（等等先將勾勾當案（這是先行所賦予立法院委員的職責（那行政院、行政院是預算（那先行三條還算（行政院肯定預算來讓立法院委員來審查（"},{"start":2360.493,"end":2385.272,"text":"中國僑人也是這樣規定,行政院必須對醫院負責,有被監督的責任,也被監督以及被執行的責任,然後我們有執行的權利。這就是說,權利敷衍在底下,我們像這個國家法治國能夠這樣的順利走下去,才能走到今天,這是台灣民主的驕傲。"},{"start":2387.133,"end":2413.89,"text":"所以我常常講說另外我們從有關於宣法70條立法院不可以做預算增加立法院在做直接審視的時候不可以做預算增加這宣法70條也明定很清楚我相信大家在長期以來都清楚這個原則以及風紀"},{"start":2415.831,"end":2436.6,"text":"另外大環264解釋上面也是有稱呼如此你增加預算還有調整等等就會讓行政院的權益失去了他的權益而責任政治就沒有辦法產生了預算是他平時要收的收益還是要捐給什麼的這違憲法所不許可這是大環3914解釋領出"},{"start":2444.483,"end":2469.236,"text":"那我今天在講這個就是說因為我們可能會碰到另外一個法案也就是說有關於預算法1998年預算法通過預算法91條寫得很清楚另外一個人在做法案的時候要增加預算必須徵刑行政院的意見"},{"start":2470.336,"end":2495.468,"text":"尤其是找到替代裁員,說你找到那裡暗,要找到預算,要行政與政經行政意見,然後找到替代裁員,這是意義算法九一條規定很清楚那同意的話在意義算法第五條和第七條也有一些規範,乃至於裁划法三十八條也有寫清楚,都是有相同規範"},{"start":2497.833,"end":2525.849,"text":"那在預算法的部分,財政紀律法上面也有規範財政紀律法規範也很清楚財政紀律法的規範第五條立法院有關於立法院提案的時候要考慮到財政紀律法規範就是第五條你待會增加,也就是說你三萬要六萬也要有資金來源"},{"start":2527.389,"end":2549.022,"text":"那同樣的法,參議計法第7條,寫得更清楚,所有的法律案規定要符合參議計法,換言之就是說你提出法律案的時候,不可寫明是固定,固定經費以及比喻"},{"start":2549.742,"end":2572.519,"text":"甚至也不可增加基金從這些法制上面來看待的時候我們如何在憲法以至於拉丸四憲以及預算法、殘疾法乃至於這個殘疾法上面我們共同找出一個合法的合憲又可解套"},{"start":2574.872,"end":2589.647,"text":"為什麼這樣講呢?我們希望就是說以後我們常常會噴到那最近很多法案上涉及預算的常常在委員會也在審查造成很大的困擾"},{"start":2591.309,"end":2604.943,"text":"我希望大家秉持在從憲法上面乃至於大安事件以及這個產業紀律法、預算法上面這個整個主軸上面好好地來面對這個問題"},{"start":2607.338,"end":2614.122,"text":"那我常識提案就是說,是不是有沒有可能?好,他在從82年開始,到2015的時候,是變成3萬"},{"start":2622.586,"end":2643.178,"text":"但是它也有一個那這次也有修就是第三款第三款的時候有所以物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、物價、"},{"start":2649.881,"end":2656.605,"text":"這樣的話,我是覺得我們要賺個天價,賺十幾%就不要罵死了。這種一種互償,一下子變成double,其實感覺會不成比例。"},{"start":2670.812,"end":2687.186,"text":"後來這些原住民這些年紀的保留地,全國有幾千萬公頃,但是就是說它是要嚴格審查的,但是有時候過於腐爛,所以有些人被移送法班"},{"start":2689.332,"end":2704.199,"text":"兩篇內大家互不相稱所以我們不是在基於國家法律上面我們大家能夠好好的來協商是不是我們先提高到4萬那後面那一段我們法修後面那一段就照"},{"start":2705.419,"end":2708.801,"text":"我希望大家能找一個解決方式來解決,以上是我的前線,請大家斟酌"},{"start":2727.856,"end":2728.136,"text":"我們在這裏要"},{"start":2756.9,"end":2777.237,"text":"首先要謝謝院長今天來召集協商。距離9月20日,在野黨赫然發現,中央總預算送到立法院來,竟然把在議會通過的法律案也好,組決議案也好,"},{"start":2778.342,"end":2802.812,"text":"都沒有能夠完整的來編列與實際的違反國家不可以做違法的事情這個在立法院正式三讀通過的法案而且經過總統府的公告在限期內沒有看到有任何複製的情況但是行政院可以不編列這樣的預算然後送到立法院來"},{"start":2804.389,"end":2832.518,"text":"這不只是嚴重的藐視國會也是對韓院長非常的不尊重那從9月20號到現在經過了將近一個月的時間我想整個執政者的整個操作鋪天蓋地的各種亡軍、各種攻擊我要謝謝院長今天的召集讓我們有一個把事實能夠讓國人了解的一個機會"},{"start":2837.111,"end":2861.79,"text":"確實最近有風有雨有颱風有淹水我們要再次強調這是一個基本的常識9月20號立法院程序委員會所推回的行政院的中央總預算是民國114年是明年的總預算立法院還沒有開始正式審查只是發現了"},{"start":2863.817,"end":2888.291,"text":"他們違法該編列的預算沒有編列而且腐爛的情況非常的嚴重把國家跟人民當提款機所以這種情況之下才先退回程序委員會並沒有進入實質的審查而卻是鋪天蓋地的這個政論節目網軍側翼"},{"start":2891.623,"end":2918.509,"text":"到處在所有這些選區不斷地在宣傳這個治水預算沒有了都是現在要救災、救難治水預算沒有了都是國民黨、民眾黨把預算把它刪掉了、把它擋掉了我想我們在這裡要向全國國人誠摯地表達只需烏有一個國家級的團隊來造謠"},{"start":2920.738,"end":2945.907,"text":"完全沒有的事情今年所有救災救命救苦的預算在去年都已經通過今年113年國家在執行的預算都是去年年底就今年年初就已經通過而現在立法院發生的重大爭議的預算是明年的預算從審議都還沒有開始"},{"start":2947.799,"end":2975.271,"text":"何來的刪除跟退回（何來的黨治水預算（何來的黨（這個老人年金（還有育兒津貼（鋪天蓋地的去攻擊在野黨的國會議員（這是國家之詞（我們要再次強調（在國會什麼事情都可以討論（都可以協商（而且都有法律救濟的管道（"},{"start":2976.741,"end":3003.806,"text":"執政者認為國會所通過的法律法律案他們有意見可以依法提出行政可以依法提出復議有很多程序的救濟方式都可以進行但是很奇怪的這個國家竟然不是用正式的合法合規合憲的方式來進行所有國家重大議題的討論"},{"start":3005.922,"end":3029.739,"text":"而是動員這個網軍側翼要呼喚青鳥我想對在野黨的這樣威脅恐嚇我們在這裡再一次的嚴正表達我們完全不接受這樣的一個事情我們是就事論事而且理性的討論我想剛剛柯總召所提到這個禁法補償的事情"},{"start":3031.055,"end":3049.447,"text":"我想這個也是這次總預算退回程序委員會的原因之一而已之一啊當然他所凸顯的就是一個行政院一個國家的團隊不依法來施政"},{"start":3052.745,"end":3080.544,"text":"這個對國會的踐踏．對百分之百掌握全國民意的立法院所做出來的．三讀通過的法律案．總統府也公告了．可以不來執行．這個只是其中之一而已．更何況進法補償．民進黨立委也爭相．部落立委也爭相提出來．大家一路加碼．所以．"},{"start":3081.721,"end":3105.078,"text":"今天這個案子我要特別強調不只是在野黨有部落立委有共識執政黨的立委部落立委也一樣有共識而且法律案的提出是清清楚楚白紙黑字就在我們的桌面上民進黨立委也是提同樣的金額同樣的競發補償"},{"start":3109.223,"end":3134.188,"text":"怎麼會大家一致性的決議然後在立法院三讀通過以後這樣的法律案可以不來執行那請問立法院通過什麼案子可以來執行這行政演習無限擴張到踐踏全民賦予監督權力的國會我們在這裡要特別強調憲法70條立法委員"},{"start":3140.666,"end":3159.663,"text":"國會議員在審查預算的時候確實不能作為增加預算之作為但是我們現在根本就不是在審查總預算這是上個會期通過的法律案根本不是現在在審議"},{"start":3166.819,"end":3182.253,"text":"這個總預算的時簽裡面提出來的這個要求他增加預算那怎麼會是混淆視聽呢把憲法的解釋都扭曲而且大法官391號解釋也講得非常清楚當預算的編列"},{"start":3185.242,"end":3206.297,"text":"這個確實有不合時宜的時候還可以裡面該怎麼去調整就三檢的部分再讓他們來另外再做調整這都講得非常非常的清楚更何況今天的爭議還不只一件不是說朝野部落立委都一致支持的這個進法補償的這個六萬塊錢"},{"start":3210.268,"end":3219.375,"text":"還有關係到全國醫護水平2300萬人健康的我們的健保點值0.95元這個議會大家都各黨黨兵都簽字了而且這個我們還是貫徹賴清德總統在競選時候所提出來的他的政見跟承諾公開的承諾我們幫賴總統來完成"},{"start":3240.402,"end":3269.734,"text":"結果竟然可以衛福部行政院可以不予理會再加上有多少年15年以上那些車仔、那些農民這麼辛苦這竟然公糧收購到現在一直都沒有來調整那這個事情也是經過運會的通過再加上立法院通過的事情"},{"start":3271.098,"end":3287.922,"text":"行政院抵制不作為（已經明顯違法（而且這不是關係到哪一個黨（哪一個人（這是關係到全民的健康（全國的農民（農民還有分顏色嗎（2300人的健康還有分顏色嗎（這都已經通過的事情（為什麼可以（行政院可以建它（再加上錯誤的能源政策（"},{"start":3301.695,"end":3324.45,"text":"確要來全國人民來買單一千億一千億每一年一千億兩千億的去補能源政策錯誤的這個錢坑除了補錢以外一年還要定價還要漲兩次給錢還不放人啊還要向全民啊家戶收錢啊一年還要漲兩次要把國內的產業統統趕出去嗎"},{"start":3329.485,"end":3358.565,"text":"我們現在無法想像這樣一個國家堅持錯誤的能源政策昨天還打高空要到什麼菲律賓到哪裡去設電廠這光拉這個線要損耗三四十趴到台灣一想天開真的是天馬行空這就是我們國家能源政策嗎無限量的向人民來虛所無度嗎"},{"start":3359.955,"end":3385.712,"text":"這個都是我們在討論過程中認為要退回總預算的主要的原因不是只有一個而已我們希望國會是大家共同尊重的大家抄以協商的結果我們希望能夠確定行政院要執行如果是法律案都三讀通過的事情行政院當然要來執行"},{"start":3389.426,"end":3392.048,"text":"謝謝院長我本來想說今天是要來聽解決方案不是要把之前講過的論述再說一次"},{"start":3411.533,"end":3432.739,"text":"那或者是在這邊在進行實質的爭執啦那只不過說剛剛執政黨的歷任黨鞭有針對法律的部分發表他個人的高見跟闡述所以我可能簡要的把重點的事情我還是要再清楚的講一次第一個"},{"start":3434.139,"end":3456.424,"text":"我們現在所在面臨的問題是中央政府總預算的審查立法委員在審查預算的時候我們可以刪除我們可以凍結但我們不能針對行政院所提出的預算案增加它的金額我想這是一個最基本的遊戲規則那因此"},{"start":3460.023,"end":3482.077,"text":"針對今年中央政府所編出來的總預算案我們認為腐爛的部分當然啦如果行政院願意利用機會重新調整我覺得是好事但腐爛的部分我們接下來審查的時候不管是刪除還是會凍結我們都會依法去做我們秉持那個卓榮泰院長"},{"start":3483.358,"end":3501.385,"text":"所宣布的絕對不可以浪費公帑的基本原則來進行嚴格的審查但為什麼我們會希望行政院要重編基本上還是回到一個法治國的原則就是依法行政立法院已經三讀通過的法律案"},{"start":3502.245,"end":3523.606,"text":"那個已經構成了人民的請求權的基礎那人民原住民符合資格的依照禁法補償條例他們提出請求的時候在國家上面公法上的給付義務按照目前三讀通過已經生效的法律他本來可以請求的金額就是每公頃6萬元"},{"start":3525.288,"end":3543.737,"text":"但問題是在今年所送出來的總預算當中他沒有針對這個國家要履行他的法定義務所必須要有的支出來編列預算那我們在後來審查的時候按照憲法的規定又沒有辦法增加這是為什麼我們希望"},{"start":3544.477,"end":3556.016,"text":"行政院就沒有依法編列預算的部分能夠重新的回去編列、調整最主要的理由我覺得這第一個是基本大的架構的"},{"start":3559.335,"end":3578.548,"text":"立場、原則跟理由先做一個簡單的說明那目前會遇到這個問題跟我們上個會期審議有關係的其實有三個案子我先從最簡單的開始講就有關於健保點值0.95元的部分那個是三黨的黨團"},{"start":3582.355,"end":3599.776,"text":"參與的委員、黨團的幹部、大家全部都簽字了當初我記得花了很多的時間然後大家都同意了那樣子的一個內容那我們黨團是有稱召這位委員因為他對於這個議題是最熟悉的那參與實質的協商"},{"start":3601.778,"end":3630.11,"text":"那後來陳委員回來跟我們講協商的結果我們黨團的幹部都同意也都簽了字所以第一個我覺得比較沒有爭議的是這三個黨團的黨變通通都簽了字的事情那第二個就有關於公糧收購價格的部分公糧收購價格的部分當初台灣民眾黨提案那中國國民黨也有提案那在院會裡面的時候針對這個提案的主決議"},{"start":3632.639,"end":3655.113,"text":"根本沒有人提出異議啊那個時候主持會議的主席有問說請問在場的委員有無異議根本沒有人異議啊甚至連表決都沒有就無異議就通過了那第三個部分可能對左榮泰而言他比較有意見的是計法補償條例他說違憲我老實說我聽不懂"},{"start":3662.35,"end":3686.111,"text":"省預算的時候不可以為增加支出的提議跟在法律案的時候會造成行政部門或者在編預算的需求這在概念上是兩回事而當初的禁法補償條例一開始的時候它也是由立法委員來提議的最後也三讀通過了"},{"start":3688.706,"end":3701.665,"text":"那過去會增加支出的立法委員的提案法律通過因此而造成整個預算會支出的法律案比比皆是我就不要再一一列舉了"},{"start":3702.935,"end":3718.246,"text":"那當然最近執政黨又說違反預算法第91條那我們來看一下預算法91條是怎麼規定的預算法91條規定說立法委員所提的法律案第一個大幅增加"},{"start":3720.47,"end":3736.449,"text":"第一、研商的前提要件是要大幅增加稅出第二、研商要遵循行政院的意見請大家注意在法條的用語上他是要遵循行政院的意見他不是要得到行政院"},{"start":3737.489,"end":3764.755,"text":"的同意在法律的文字上面他為什麼是用徵詢他不是說取得行政院的同意我相信這個立法議職非常的清楚這個法律到底要怎麼解釋那我們再看具體的實際上面的內容具體實際上面的內容在上個會期在審查這個法律案的時候到底有沒有去徵詢行政院的意見 有啊"},{"start":3765.555,"end":3793.073,"text":"真的有徵詢行政院的意見那個時候提案的委員我記得是武力華委員在針對禁法補償條例進行總質詢的時候他問了上一屆也就是在法案提出的行政院院長陳建仁陳建仁說他支持啊旁邊的主記長還提醒說那如果要增加的話要修正法律"},{"start":3795.029,"end":3818.857,"text":"那那個時候在尋答的過程當中很清楚就趕快推動法律的修正主計長還當場表示只要法律修正通過了以後他們就會依法編列預算這個在立法院公報裡面的整個立法歷程清清楚楚的所以分兩個層次第一個台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們根本不認為這個有違憲的問題"},{"start":3824.131,"end":3851.03,"text":"有沒有違反憲法那個是基本上面的憲政原則它不會因為法律規定的內容而產生任何的影響你怎麼會說在討論法律有沒有違憲的時候就看其他法律是怎麼規定那退一萬步講你今天即使要看預算法的規定預算法的規定也寫得很清楚啊它最多只是要徵詢行政院的意見它上面有說要行政院同意嗎"},{"start":3852.662,"end":3871.854,"text":"上面也沒有說要行政院同意那如果說要行政院同意的話那可能我們在這邊所講的憲政主義權力分立行政跟立法兩者之間的界限恐怕才是真正遭到大幅的踐踏跟破壞所以台灣民眾黨團的立場"},{"start":3874.315,"end":3899.533,"text":"非常的簡單就是請行政院依法行政依法編列預算那至於說行政院如果卓榮泰他個人認為這個法律是所謂的違憲的話那行政院在這個情況之下他們要去申請釋憲或者是什麼什麼這個按照法定的程序我們都尊重啦"},{"start":3900.376,"end":3910.228,"text":"我們都尊重啊但我要提醒的事情是什麼我要提醒的事情是行政院說他一公請願意給4萬塊那請問給付這4萬塊的法律基礎是什麼你如果這個法律違憲你認為違憲那就給付3萬塊嘛"},{"start":3920.506,"end":3946.403,"text":"那在被憲法法庭宣告違憲以前這個是三讀有效通過的法律行政院也沒提復議依法的規定人民在公法上的請求權就是6萬塊那現在突然說要美公請他願意給4萬塊那請問美公請給付4萬塊的法律基礎是什麼毫無依據啊那因此我們也希望"},{"start":3948.358,"end":3974.778,"text":"總預算能夠進行實質的審查這個我們都沒意見但前提是說行政院你在編列預算的時候你還是要依法編列預算這樣立法機關針對你所編列的預算是不是有腐爛是不是有做不好該凍結我們才有辦法順利的再往下去進行審查下去那這個是台灣民眾黨黨團我們基本上面的態度跟立場"},{"start":3976.639,"end":3999.366,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召那各位黨團幹部跟大家報告一下齁等一下準備第二輪發言之前我請原住民列席的委員尖端二要來講一下怎麼立場也請主記長請準備你講完話之後我們各黨團第二輪發言好不好這樣的話比較完整一點主記長請準備來請兩位今天的列席還有其他歡迎各黨團同志各自己的原住民立委大家都很關切請高金委員請"},{"start":4000.186,"end":4024.984,"text":"首先謝謝韓院長在我們政黨協商的時候可以排除所謂的三黨的總召門也讓原住民的立法委員來練習所以因此黃光昌委員剛剛所提的我就大概不再說了但是我有幾個必須要說明的第一件事情就是目前我們原住民的禁法補償令的人"},{"start":4025.544,"end":4032.749,"text":"公請數是72587公請（領的人數是51957人（這是按照112年度領的這個數據（然後也沒有剛剛坑澤昭說的違法（還有亂編（反而是非常的嚴格（我在這邊要先說明一下（"},{"start":4051.54,"end":4074.148,"text":"二、如黃國昌總召說的（如果我們的卓院長說4萬是違憲的話（或者按照柯總召所說的（我們是不是先編4萬（然後隨著物價指數來調升（的確隨著物價指數調升（是在法律案裡面有通過的部分（"},{"start":4074.888,"end":4090.133,"text":"大家知道所謂的物價有升也有降它不會永遠停留在6萬塊更何況剛剛所提到的如果它是違憲的話為什麼卓院長說4萬它就合憲呢?"},{"start":4091.314,"end":4105.192,"text":"六萬就是違憲這是我們族人一直也搞不太清楚的謝謝剛剛黃國昌走招有提示大家然後再來就是所謂的財源其實我給大家看一下財源在104年"},{"start":4109.037,"end":4124.874,"text":"這個禁法補償通過一公頃三萬的時候（當時的田秋瑾、簡東明（高金素梅還有幾個人王金平院長（我們就簽字了 這上面簡單講附帶決議是說（如果要提高禁法補償的金額的話（應該是由開徵碳稅來支應（"},{"start":4129.298,"end":4145.17,"text":"好,大家也理解,氣候編簽法在立法院已經通過了然後我們也有一個溫室氣體管理基金也有錢了所以政府一直在說沒有裁員,我們也不知道是不是沒有裁員"},{"start":4145.911,"end":4174.843,"text":"已經104年告訴你．如果我們有增加預算的話．可以從這個管理基金出來．我想這個環境部、財政部．應該都非常的清楚知道再來我要談的是．我希望待會我們的秘書長．可以來跟我們來說明一下．什麼是法律案．什麼是預算案．就我在立法院23年的理解．禁法補償、修正條例是屬於法律案．"},{"start":4175.703,"end":4184.553,"text":"法律案我也在布加多綴有多少個在立法院通過了然後也是要求我們行政院要編列預算比我們現在進法補償的編列預算的金額還高得多了"},{"start":4193.584,"end":4208.161,"text":"民進黨一直在說財政紀律法的確財政紀律法在108年是有修正的但是不要忘記我這邊也有一些相關的文件109年6月的時候三倍卷"},{"start":4209.284,"end":4219.63,"text":"也通過了告訴大家金額是多少515億110年的9月5號9月五倍件就通過了1100億然後113年如果是違憲的話113年10月陳廷飛他又提案了他說老農津貼要從8000到1萬"},{"start":4233.659,"end":4253.54,"text":"所以我們不知道現在卓院長他的邏輯是什麼如果原住民提高進法補償一公頃六萬是違憲的話為什麼他們自己的立法委員吳亦華委員提六萬然後我如果沒有進座的話我們的吳思耀委員也幫他連署了"},{"start":4254.301,"end":4262.511,"text":"所以如果是違憲的我再講一次4萬就不違憲嗎然後我們看一下今年100明年114年度的預算從原民會的公務預算裡面看到他編列的進法補償就是28.1"},{"start":4272.583,"end":4294.473,"text":"如果按照我剛剛所講的那個金額（我們目前有7萬公頃（大家用數學算一下（4、7、28（所以一開始行政院就篤定只要給4萬塊（如果就是行政院長他一意孤行（他於心不忍（"},{"start":4295.433,"end":4321.729,"text":"他不願意提所謂的這個復議案那麼他又依照什麼法律可以編4萬而且他也在114年度原民會的公務預算裡面編了28.1億給經法補償所以這個部分大家要思考一下一開始我們的卓院長就是欺負原住民只願意給4萬以上 謝謝"},{"start":4324.526,"end":4347.753,"text":"謝謝高進委員發言,接下來請鄭天才委員發言院長、各黨團,非常謝謝院長也謝謝我們柯總召一開始提到禁法補償確實,因為我是在台灣省政府服務20年禁法補償是因為法律"},{"start":4349.13,"end":4371.434,"text":"禁止原住民照的林不能砍伐（所以依照森林法要補償（依照原住民基本法要補償（所以依照森林法（在民國82年（就開始有禁法補償（當時的金額就是兩萬塊（兩萬塊（"},{"start":4376.466,"end":4400.182,"text":"從82年到現在31年了31年了如果我們按照物價指數各方面絕對不是6萬塊了好105年這個公佈施行這個禁法補償條例開始實施剛才柯總長有提到3萬塊沒有錯鄭文燦"},{"start":4404.148,"end":4428.802,"text":"鄭文燦當任桃園市市長當時105年他認為太少啊他用桃園市政府的錢加碼4萬塊他知道從82年才增加到3萬塊他認為太少所以他就加碼了所以"},{"start":4430.144,"end":4455.792,"text":"現在既然法例通過了是要6萬塊而且這個提案跨黨派的立法委員72位跨黨派立法委員72位提案其中民進黨的立委32人連署包括我們吳思堯幹事長"},{"start":4459.69,"end":4484.258,"text":"本席跟高金素美只有提五萬塊吳立法立委陳寅立委都是六萬塊當然盧憲一立委是六萬塊他有他的法律的他有他的一個整個依據為什麼是六萬塊他是從英國的寫者的一個評估認為"},{"start":4487.199,"end":4514.538,"text":"最起碼要6萬塊是這樣的一個法律提案的過程我就不再贅述剛才是不是有違憲是不是有違預算法是不是有違財政紀律法剛才這個民眾黨團黃國昌都已經講得非常清楚了我不再重複我唯一要"},{"start":4516.445,"end":4532.493,"text":"這個特別要拜託行政院的是說進法補償一直到113年度的總預算才回到正軌完全由公務預算來編列112年度以前"},{"start":4539.964,"end":4560.336,"text":"從106到112年度都違法挪用了原住民族綜合發展基金所以我特別要請主席議長要去補編補編的預算不多只有15億為了15億立法院要開這麼長的朝野協商"},{"start":4566.091,"end":4588.45,"text":"然後在立法院、行政院在那邊總諸行花了多少的時間?15億啊!沒有多少啊!所以部分就編列公務預算。以上。謝謝。謝謝鄭天才委員發言。主席長,現在麻煩您發言一下。其他三個黨團已經準備二輪發言。請。"},{"start":4591.524,"end":4601.533,"text":"院長、副院長和各位黨團委員大家好我們主計總署針對114年度原住民進華補償經費編列來提出說明原住民進華補償標準是由每公頃3萬元調整到6萬元"},{"start":4610.681,"end":4614.103,"text":"一、中央政府總預算案．一、研商有關二、研商有關"},{"start":4628.271,"end":4641.899,"text":"這個部分修法後備徵的部分（跟《憲法70條》還有相關的一個財政紀律法規定不符（因為這裡面有需要說要指定資金的一個來源（我們也針對這個原民會114年度的預算的一個部分（我們總預算是成長9%點多（但是原民會預算我們增加了12%（"},{"start":4652.325,"end":4677.194,"text":"所以這個部分增加了部分我們希望說他在這個經費裡面按照他施政的優先順序去本年基預算的一個精神去做一個排序和執行編列執行那這個案子呢我們如果經過執行以後如果經費有不足的部分那我們本總處呢依據行政院的一個政策來檢討協助以上一個補充"},{"start":4680.891,"end":4701.571,"text":"我們請民進黨團請第二輪發言謝謝院長那針對今天在討論總預算那第一題當然就是原住民競發補償那我覺得剛剛事實上主席長也有揭露幾個重要的原則就是說我們立法委員事實上在立法"},{"start":4702.452,"end":4703.854,"text":"第14屆考試院人事同意權案．民進黨黨團提議．三、研商有關"},{"start":4719.834,"end":4720.855,"text":"〔民進黨黨團提議．中央政府總預算案〕"},{"start":4749.654,"end":4760.801,"text":"你徵詢行政院意見那你要跟行政院至少也要討論出這個彌補資金的來源這是一個重點那財政紀律法在2019年4月10號公佈"},{"start":4764.924,"end":4790.957,"text":"那基本上它重要的條文在第五條以及第七條其中第五條跟預算法九十一條精神是一樣的也就是說你立法委員所提的法律案那如果增加政府的支出的時候應該也要具名指名彌補資金來言這個法律用語就是用因它並不是很單純的用的因就是說你必須要然後第七條還規定說各級機關"},{"start":4794.113,"end":4819.941,"text":"即立法機關制定法律的時候．你不得增加固定經費額度或比例的保障．那也不得用基金的方式．來限縮整個政府的一個施政．那我想這個基本上都是基於所謂權力分立原則．也就是行政權去編列預算．立法權來審預算．那整個精神還是在於．"},{"start":4821.461,"end":4840.551,"text":"憲法第70條第70條就是立法委員在立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出之提議所以可以看出來說你在預算案的時候立法委員是不得為增加之提議所以也衍生到了有4至264號跟391號4至264號是講到了說你立法委員不得用決議的方式來"},{"start":4848.775,"end":4875.445,"text":"來提高這個預算當年度是有立法委員去決議要增加公務人員的年終獎金那後來這樣的一個決議被認為是違反違反這個憲法第70條所以被宣告違憲那391條是認為說那你在沒有增加總預算的情況之下你在預算科目裡面為調整那後來也是認為這樣的一個調整仍然是"},{"start":4877.786,"end":4878.487,"text":"對於行政權他在行政的時候有所的一個牽制那這樣的一個"},{"start":4883.013,"end":4912.413,"text":"對行政權的一個簽字的一個作為（也是被認為是違憲的（所以可以看出說這個是關於預算案有這樣的精神（那當然目前大法官解釋沒去說到說法律案的一個情況這個是現在大法官解釋還沒有講到這一塊但是我們同樣的從剛剛預算法從剛剛財政金域法都可以推演出是一樣的一個精神立法委員我們可以用法案來要求行政機關應該要做怎樣的行政作為"},{"start":4913.033,"end":4928.473,"text":"但是這樣的行政作為你一旦增加政府的支出的時候你就必須要跟行政機關溝通至少也要溝通出裁員在哪裡所以這個裁員如果還沒有找出來的話那你用法案強行通過"},{"start":4929.634,"end":4953.351,"text":"違反預算法、違反財政紀律法．而且很明顯．跟憲法所接觸的這個權力分立原則．也是不合憲的．所以我想民進黨的態度是這樣．所以也是希望說．在這樣的精神之下．那能不能說．我們再用其他的一個方式．大家來溝通．所以我想以上我先這樣的一個發言．等一下再聽大家的一個意見．"},{"start":4956.513,"end":4958.015,"text":"好,謝謝民進黨團參與幹事長的發言二人請國民黨團發言然後台灣民眾黨請準備好,謝謝院長"},{"start":4966.461,"end":4993.964,"text":"我想對於總預算的議題剛才我們不管是副分級總召、黃國昌總召或者我們高金、鄭天才委員我想一再的重申要求行政院就是要依法行政其實我在這邊要特別呼籲民進黨的委員我想我們每一位立法委員都必須尊重自舉的職權我們必須要監督行政院依法行政"},{"start":4995.405,"end":5011.861,"text":"剛才國昌總召講得非常清楚就是說我們的原名的保留地進法補償條例的修正案這個案子是在6月4號三讀通過總統府也在6月24號公告這是一部有效率的法律"},{"start":5013.075,"end":5028.536,"text":"所以另外我們行政院的這個也沒有依照中華民國憲法徵修條文第3條在10日內已請立法院來附議那也沒有提出憲法的訴訟由憲法法庭判定是否違憲"},{"start":5029.918,"end":5046.417,"text":"現在不管是柯總召或者剛才蔡議員一直講說這是一部違憲的一個的修法我們就不清楚說明明是一部有效施行的法律也沒有經過凍結行政院有什麼立場不去依法來編列這個預算"},{"start":5048.82,"end":5070.542,"text":"所以我們是認為說實際上是行政院非常不尊重我們的立法院的我們的三讀通過的一個法律所以其實朝野在現階段這部法律是有效施行的情況之下我們應該是共同一致的來監督行政院而不是幫行政院來護航"},{"start":5071.983,"end":5099.322,"text":"行政院已經違法了你們還可以口口聲聲說行政院你可以不用依法編列這個預算我想這個才是違反權力分履的一個原則另外我要再提到的就是說我想我們剛才不管是鄭天才委員或高進委員一再強調這個原名的這個這個經法補償的這個預算如果這次編列只需要多少錢大概就是14到17億"},{"start":5101.311,"end":5126.586,"text":"那剛才一語一字講說你要這個經過行政院去盤點說我們有沒有這個預算啊有沒有這個預算我跟我我們來看一下今年我們編的預算啊行政院在114年度的預算中編列高達將近15億的媒體的就三兆兩千億其中有15億啊是媒體政策的宣導費比去年增加多少增加65%啊所以"},{"start":5130.988,"end":5159.779,"text":"對於我們立法通過的進法補償金你說沒有預算可以去做相關公共預算的編列我想這個是說不過去啦說不過去喔我想這愧對原住民的權益的一個照顧喔所以我們在這邊我們就重申請行政院依法行政好謝謝國民黨團林思明書記長的發言接下來台灣民眾黨請二人發言請吳春城委員發言"},{"start":5166.264,"end":5177.996,"text":"這個整個的討論聽到現在我完全無法理解行政院就依法行政"},{"start":5179.864,"end":5200.374,"text":"完全沒有問題這是法律已經三讀通過的第二個按照通例過去同樣的這些類似的法律多如牛毛第三個呢如果是財政負擔按照財政負擔"},{"start":5202.08,"end":5230.352,"text":"這也是一筆小錢相對於三兆的整個的中央總預算來講按照學理大家各方面的討論也完全沒有問題那第五個按照從政府的和諧的運作加上現在民生疾苦百廢待興所有事情都急著要推動"},{"start":5232.369,"end":5255.258,"text":"從這各個觀點當中我覺得行政院都站不住腳行政院但是呢百思不決為什麼要這麼硬為什麼要這麼堅持卡在一個原住民的補償條例上面我來想啊這到底的意義是什麼我想他要聲張的是"},{"start":5256.673,"end":5268.022,"text":"行政權剛才提到的行政權不可被牽制要身上執政黨要牽制這一個然後立法權不可監督是不是要這樣子呢"},{"start":5269.383,"end":5293.494,"text":"那我也看到我們的黨團我們的行政院的行政部門即使都在辯論我覺得辯論得很心虛、很辛苦真的我覺得大家都很辛苦你們都是專家不管從案例、從剛才所提到的任何事情大家都心知肚明、非常清楚大家不曉得在這邊演什麼戲那所以呢我覺得無非是不是要伸張"},{"start":5295.155,"end":5312.822,"text":"執政獨裁、藐視國會（這樣子永無倫理、非國家之福（所以特別在這裡聲明好,謝謝壯世代的吳春城委員,謝謝主席長請問有沒有要補充的,因為我要念一下結論吳世堯委員,請發言"},{"start":5319.619,"end":5340.645,"text":"謝謝,我想院長應當有相當的智慧因為您說你已經有預擬結論了但是我還是把握時間這個發言一下希望就是大家都是朝解決問題的方向來走那過去我想每一個會期尤其在預算會期要進入總預算副委審查"},{"start":5341.925,"end":5370.444,"text":"當然都會有當下的政治環境跟情勢可能有某個個案、某個爭議的議題然後大家朝野之間有一些攻防所以稍微都沒有在第一次會就直接讓總預算來複為審查但是我找出過去這數年來事實上是數十年來在預算會期審議總預算交付審查的時程大概都是第二次會或第三次會就交付審查"},{"start":5371.665,"end":5394.661,"text":"前提是我剛剛講每一個會期都有那個時候的政治氛圍可能有特殊的政治issue朝野之間真的要攻防表達立場但是大家過去的朝野大家的共同智慧跟共同的共識就是總預算是要審的總預算嚴當不得所以非常完整我手上的資料從民國90年到113年度"},{"start":5397.623,"end":5408.524,"text":"在預算會期審查預算附委的期程都是落在該次就是我們的院會的第二次或第三次會就審查了"},{"start":5409.235,"end":5422.063,"text":"那我們現在這個會期到現在開議已經一個月了將近那即將要進入第五次的院會了如果說第五次的院會還沒有辦法讓總預算來交付審查我想這個其實是有違過去大家長年來"},{"start":5429.688,"end":5451.625,"text":"即使有不同的政治議題攻防之下．過去的立法院．不管誰大誰小．誰是巢誰是野．都有這樣的基本共識．因為審查預算就是立法委員的職權．所以我前提講得很清楚．我們都理解．在政治攻防下．各政黨有彼此的看法．"},{"start":5452.486,"end":5463.731,"text":"哪個節總是要解的嘛所以今天謝謝韓院長主持的這個朝野協商剛剛我就順著吳春成我前面發言的幹事長吳幹事長他也是吳幹事長我們都是吳幹事長的這個您剛說的民生極苦嘛"},{"start":5472.995,"end":5487.441,"text":"百廢待舉,您剛說的啦如果說我們都是民意一票一票選出來的如果說都肯認到總預算是可以解決讓解決這個民生疾苦百廢待舉的狀況之下當然就趕快讓它審查"},{"start":5489.462,"end":5503.971,"text":"因為沒有審查．就不會有通過．不會有通過．就會延宕了一些政務的推行明年度的新興計畫．如果沒有審預算．完全沒有辦法致用的新興計畫．就是2050億"},{"start":5507.333,"end":5527.431,"text":"我上一場會議在司法法制委員會質詢法務部我們上回期通過的打詐四法在野黨大家都要打詐四法一定要通過詐騙是現在社會大家最厭惡的政府一定要解決那總預算如果沒有審我剛剛問了總我問了法務部長那你手上影響的新興打詐業務會高達11.26億啊"},{"start":5532.596,"end":5555.755,"text":"這些都是人民關節的議題所以我先講我的開宗明義縱使任何的政治攻防在每一個會期開始都會有但是總預算就是要交付審查過去的期程是第二次會或第三次會我們明天如果再沒有辦法交付審查今天是協商的最終機會我們會落到第五次會"},{"start":5556.676,"end":5577.801,"text":"而總預算嚴厚交付審查期程．立法委員們付出的代價是什麼．除了民意的苛責之外．最重要、最現實的．就是壓縮我們監督預算、審查的期程．因為法定的預算．要審閉的期程是年底．12月31號．如果晚一次會、晚兩次會．我們就是少掉多一個禮拜．"},{"start":5585.203,"end":5599.8,"text":"少一個禮拜．可以好好藉由審查．針對預算的編轉．執行計畫的完備與否．在那個場域上去行使委員的監督權力．所以我要強調這件事．"},{"start":5602.782,"end":5629.351,"text":"我第一次說話我再講一下還有一個事情我也想很多細節我都不再贅述因為剛剛很多前輩大家都指證過發表過意見但我要講一件事情當我們立法委員不管是行政或立法我們都是服務人民的公僕不分行政立法大家都要依法行政依法行政在在野黨的"},{"start":5631.109,"end":5644.075,"text":"口中主張行政院要依法行政（同樣的立法部門在修法（或是在立新法（也要依法來修法（或是依法來立法（"},{"start":5645.51,"end":5670.458,"text":"國家的體制是一套的不管誰執政都有一套要遵循的體制所以剛剛已經講了憲法的精神預算法的精神財政紀律法2019年更嚴格的限縮因為我們的法律是越來越進步越來越嚴謹我非常印象深刻2019年修正財政紀律法的時候"},{"start":5672.422,"end":5693.719,"text":"當時的提案委員（有民進黨的王榮章委員（他是我們的財政專家（有國民黨的曾明宗委員（也是財政專家（還有我們非常資深的賴世保委員（財政專家吧（在三位委員的合推之下（完成了財政紀律法的立法（"},{"start":5694.76,"end":5714.922,"text":"所以財政紀律法在2019年立法之後三位各黨跨黨派的資深專業的財政委員都認為我們要對於國家財政的控管進行一套更進步的檢視所以透過一個財政紀律法的立法其實它限縮了立法委員修法的職權沒有錯"},{"start":5717.073,"end":5740.243,"text":"因為財政紀律法就限縮了第5條跟第7條都限縮了我們的立委未來而後在修任何一個法律的時候不能夠有明定的數額乃至於比例都不行所以這是一個更進步的國會朝野的共識制像我剛剛說的曾明宗委員夠專業了吧賴世保委員在財政的領域夠專業了吧"},{"start":5741.724,"end":5762.141,"text":"他們共同認為不論誰執政國家的財政都要好好的控管所以2019年的財政紀律法很清楚的告訴我們很遺憾上個會期的原住民進法補償的條例就是違逆了財政紀律法最新的一個我們現在都會沿用的預算的基本法規"},{"start":5763.462,"end":5788.361,"text":"所以依法行政不只是要求行政部門我們自己立法委員如果立了在釋法性有問題的法律又要行政部門都要去適用那這樣沒完沒了所以回到財政紀律法為什麼要修為了控管國家財政那我希望剛剛柯總召已經說了民進黨團今天是帶著願意讓步"},{"start":5791.735,"end":5809.712,"text":"大家善意誠意的協調（上個會期在修原住民進法補償條例的時候（其實在也是韓院長主持的那個協商會場（其實大家心知肚明（從3萬到6萬百分之百的一個漲幅（這個是前所未有的（其實在場"},{"start":5815.762,"end":5823.71,"text":"大概多數的委員當天都在場所以才在跟行政部門協調一個合一的數字的時候"},{"start":5825.253,"end":5848.567,"text":"有一個4萬塊．行政部門也認為每公頃4萬塊．是在合理性上可以接受的．所以回到預算法第91條．任何一個修法要增加稅出或減少稅入．我不曉得剛剛在野黨委員說的．黃國昌委員說的一定要大幅增加才算．如果您認為28億不是大幅．"},{"start":5849.426,"end":5877.281,"text":"那未來每一個法律（它會有它的母數跟基數是不一樣的這重點的法律的意涵就是不要去簽約了預約了行政部門的預算權限所以它有一個應徵詢行政院之意見大家共識覺得找出一個在財政負擔上OK的不會造成其他預算項目的排擠的所以當初大家認為4萬是合理的"},{"start":5878.081,"end":5906.556,"text":"那原始沒有修法之前就三萬（所以這是一個行政部門認為願意擴大照顧（所以剛剛總召所提（柯總召所提的（如果今年度行政部門也會想方設法（在四萬的幅度（而且也依循每兩年CPI的指數（我認為這是一個非常合宜（也是當初大家都認為一個合理的長幅（真的要懇求大家（"},{"start":5907.802,"end":5924.259,"text":"希望在原住民計法補償這件事情獲得一個大家各退一步的解方但更重要的這件事情大家接不接受這個解方都不要再繼續影響到總預算的負為審查明天是第五次會了"},{"start":5925.906,"end":5948.364,"text":"壓縮我們審查期間是不利於國會的監督這真的是要非常懇切的那因為很多很多的我想都不要再贅述但是苦民所苦剛講的如果百廢待舉民生凋零那國家需要預算照顧人民謝謝好謝謝吳思耀委員發言那我們請國民黨團三人發言請好謝謝主席"},{"start":5955.963,"end":5979.66,"text":"剛才就是已經經過了兩輪發言那我剛才也聽到我們民進黨幹事長的發言其實我們一直強調就是所謂的依法行政剛才吳思堯幹事長一直說依法行政但是我們現在問題就是當由我們立法院通過而且經過總統公告的法律而政府不去實行的話我必須說啊我們也是陷害總統於不義啊"},{"start":5985.413,"end":5995.941,"text":"這不是第一次史上第一遭破天荒的由總統府公告實施的法律最後告訴民眾誤會一場"},{"start":5997.853,"end":6020.762,"text":"所以我們不要陷賴總統於不義我覺得這非常重要我們一直在講依法行政依法行政這個法經過通過經過公告實施而行政院也沒有提出復議然後在編列預算的時候我們卻可以動手腳我必須講如果這樣的話我們政府自己不是變成最大的詐騙集團了嗎如果行政院要當詐騙集團"},{"start":6026.431,"end":6055.688,"text":"立法院在野黨我覺得我們沒有辦法當委員幫兇所以在這邊我們還是要求的是就是要依法行政行政院沒有提出復議你也沒有去釋憲你現在口口聲說他違反憲法違反憲法然後現在都公告實施了怎麼可以這樣子翻臉這是一個另外"},{"start":6057.797,"end":6086.095,"text":"剛才就特別講打架很重要打架非常重要啊但是政府自己不能夠變成詐騙集團這一點非常重要而且剛才如果按照吳四堯幹事長說的當時從三萬變成六萬他覺得非常驚訝可是吳四堯幹事長自己可能都忘了當民進黨的立委提案修正的時候你自己連署啊是不是我覺得你今天不能說"},{"start":6087.659,"end":6092.182,"text":"民進黨的委員提出來這個你都可以連署然後等到我們在立法院通過了我們也從善如流啊然後現在呢我們就變成違法亂紀了嗎我們就沒有財政紀律了嗎那不曉得幹事長吳志堯幹事長你的財政紀律到底你的標準是不是也是浮動的好 那我想"},{"start":6112.535,"end":6138.582,"text":"一直口口聲聲說就說我們不要拖延審查不要拖延審查我要告訴大家的是這一黨一點都不想拖延審查我直接說我們很想進入審查坎預算對不對這一黨就是要來監督預算是不是我們一點都不想拖延但是我們有一些原則這個原則就是法定預算你必須要編列而現在我看到主計長講這些話我不想浪費時間"},{"start":6142.335,"end":6156.523,"text":"你們今年的稅入比去年增加了4千多億增加4千億以上你告訴我沒有裁員這個增加多少?你現在你說從3萬變4萬4萬再變6萬增加多少?我算算14億啊你稅入增加4千多億然後你跟法定預算增加14億你現在告訴我"},{"start":6170.784,"end":6182.39,"text":"我告訴大家我們總統府三大委員會的成立是在我們原民進法補償條例之後在今年的預算裡面分散在各部會超過70億"},{"start":6185.526,"end":6205.027,"text":"我當然尊重總統他成立委員會他有他施政的這個需求我們尊重只要他發的合理我們也可以尊重可是問題你這個法定預算你怎麼這個三大委員會一個不是法定的機構的相關的預算可以凌駕在法律之上"},{"start":6205.948,"end":6228.399,"text":"如果是這樣的話說實在我們所有的立法委員大家打包回去睡覺啊不需要立法委員不需要立法委員也不需要立法院所以我要講的我們一點都不想拖延審查但是如果今天你不依法法定運載部編列的話那我覺得現在拖延的是民進黨政府啊是行政院啊"},{"start":6229.284,"end":6246.645,"text":"新政院現在用這種方式來拖延審查嗎所以我覺得我們很多的這個原則要跟大家講得非常清楚那不要再用抹黑的方式、造謠的方式甚至在之前很多一些梗圖"},{"start":6248.267,"end":6276.642,"text":"說我們什麼三預算、三社福、三什麼育兒今天等等都被世事查核中心已經被打臉了嘛都是假訊息所以我們今天我們相信真理越辯越明所以也拜託今天拜託我們行政院不要拖延預算的審查趕快把法定預算編好我們立刻就可以進入審查以上謝謝謝謝王副委員發言接下來台灣民眾黨請第三輪發言有沒有"},{"start":6277.799,"end":6290.486,"text":"麥文玉先生請發言好 謝謝院長好 謝謝院長 謝謝大家我是 我個人覺得"},{"start":6291.92,"end":6306.069,"text":"是行政院長拜討違法（才會延伸後面的那麼多事情（又延伸總預算的審查（又害了我們浪費很多時間（我覺得個人覺得是這樣（因為源頭（因為他沒有要大家去編的話（我總執行的時候也說（如果是他（"},{"start":6317.916,"end":6333.124,"text":"指令大家不編還是說各個部會你們不依法來去編這個真正的原因嘛但是大家講的都是後面的一堆就是原因不是原因因為沒有這個源頭怎麼會發生後面大家就是要依法"},{"start":6338.126,"end":6340.769,"text":"來去執行（對不對（所以我們希望說要求6萬（我們審查的時候我是內政委員（我們高金委員是要增加是5萬（但是在不是內政委員的委員（來說他們的預算是6萬（"},{"start":6358.308,"end":6360.289,"text":"還有我們民進黨的委員來說應該要7萬也可以所以我們就說不要我們就是說依我們的6萬就好也是大家一起來同意也是我們要照這樣子的規定來去走的"},{"start":6374.562,"end":6393.471,"text":"所以不依法的是我們行政院不是我們立法院所以我們立法院立法了行政院不尊重我們不只不尊重我們在野黨我們朝黨也是一樣啊也是大家共同努力來的嘛所以我希望說我們要請我們的行政院要依法編列"},{"start":6397.253,"end":6397.413,"text":"一、研商有關"},{"start":6417.347,"end":6419.069,"text":"立法委員有在去退回總預算．要從邊．所以我們希望說．我們要尊重我們立法院．你要退回從邊．是有這樣子的條款的．所以我們希望我們的行政院．"},{"start":6435.086,"end":6442.708,"text":"要自己不要違法要逼著我們立法院跟著你去違法這樣不對的因為我們立法的時候是你同意我們也公告我們的總統也公告了所以這個是我們要求的照我們立法通過來去編列我們很簡單這樣的要求而已所以你一直拖延浪費大家的時間也沒辦法去做質詢"},{"start":6463.595,"end":6467.837,"text":"就像你們說的到現在是誰的錯是行政院整個部會他們的錯你們的錯你們害了行政院長也害了總統已經公布了你們都不編你們都不做到最後變成我們再來怪來怪去這是最最最罪惡的就是行政院你們的團隊沒有把人民把我們立法的通過來去執行這個就是我個人覺得"},{"start":6491.045,"end":6493.449,"text":"大家到最後到現在再浪費時間謝謝大家"},{"start":6505.765,"end":6520.852,"text":"第一點我認為這不是政治攻防這也不是所謂的政治議題這是立法院最卑微的要求要求行政院依法行政所以整個拖延時間的不是在野黨"},{"start":6522.052,"end":6535.992,"text":"是你們民進黨是行政院而且我要再講七名原住民立法委員都同意六萬塊然後院長你還記得嗎你在草野協商的時候也沒有人提四萬塊"},{"start":6537.193,"end":6559.772,"text":"你還要求原民會剩下最後的10分鐘（請他們趕快來跟我們來調解一下（最後的那一個moment以下（是不是可以把它降為我的提案5萬塊（都沒有任何一個人提（行政院沒有人提（組計長沒有人提（行政部門沒有人提4萬（這個所謂的字眼（所以4萬是從哪裡來的（"},{"start":6564.717,"end":6570.565,"text":"這個所謂的法在哪裡我一直要強調再來就是剛剛主席講的我不同意為什麼113年4月17號我做內政委員會的召委我還是要提醒一下法務部門他說"},{"start":6581.158,"end":6608.191,"text":"有關原民權益的保障事項．主管機關．跟大院的職權．還有決定本部競表尊重．這是法務部的立場．第二個是農業部的立場．農業部說提高禁法補償金．還有擴大禁法的範圍區域．對於維護森林還有自然保育資源．是有正面的效應．我們再來看一下主計總處．回應我們質詢的立委．他的回答說什麼．雖然不是主計長你說的．他說"},{"start":6609.972,"end":6633.619,"text":"如果修法通過的話基本就是屬於法律所必須編列的支出我們行政部門就必須要編列預算的時候會依照所通過的規定來編列這是主計總處在現場的回應這是公務人員的回應更何況主計總長"},{"start":6635.419,"end":6656.593,"text":"今年9月25號到我的辦公室你忘了嗎?主席總長你特別同意我剛剛所講的那些法律我就不要再贅述您最後告訴我們的是說你希望原民會趕快現在補提案到行政院去補足不額的部分"},{"start":6657.373,"end":6679.741,"text":"希望原民會能夠依法辦理主計長您說的話您忘記了嗎我都有錄影下來然後最後我要說蔡玉這個幹事長你說財政紀律法我還是回歸到104年的確是有修正當然是109年的6月三倍卷要我們人民的納稅錢編515億哇好大的一筆數額"},{"start":6684.162,"end":6688.463,"text":"第110年9月的五倍建要我們人民納稅前的1100億人民會現在只需要17億這有大量的金額嗎?行政院長有必要為了這個17億在這邊浪費大家的時間嗎?如同吳思堯幹事長所講的大家不要拖延時間了如果你們真的有誠意如果你們真的"},{"start":6711.491,"end":6737.587,"text":"願意依法行政的話．那麼就趕快來處理這件事情．把沒有編族的時期一編好．大家就可以來審預算了．最後我要講．台灣到底是不是一個民主法治的國家．如果是的話．就請行政院依法行政謝謝謝謝高經緯請柯建民總召發言完以後．我們就要準備休息一下請我想大家都講．台灣是不是民主法治國家．"},{"start":6738.946,"end":6749.362,"text":"剛才我一開始講話也是我們是一個法治國一直要講說照行政院要依法行事當然行政院一定要依法行事啦所以我們的"},{"start":6750.68,"end":6774.737,"text":"我們不管行政院或是立法院（所有的都必須在合憲合法底下來做事情（這是一個大案子（所以沒有所謂的誰可以（誰可以不依法行事的那為什麼今天這個爭執當然（剛才也講過（這個三途通過（賴總統也聽下山去公告（所以這個法是合憲以火（那有待釋憲"},{"start":6776.218,"end":6787.852,"text":"然後今天我在這裡講到就是說我們想辦法來解決問題也沒有說在這裡真是什麼但是回到一個很核心的問題就是說剛才我開始講然後大家也一直在講這個問題就是說1391條的問題"},{"start":6791.161,"end":6820.223,"text":"我整個邏輯是從憲法70條到四憲、264、391到財化法、到預算法、到財經紀律法這是一個我們要一起看待的在一起看待的時候我們如何來解決這個問題所以我剛才講完以後大家一直講說你剛才講這個什麼預算法91條要遵守行政院的意見對不對然後找出財源這個就是問題之所在"},{"start":6823.401,"end":6835.416,"text":"1998年預算法修正的時候我在現場因為這是立法院寫的法案立法院要增加預算當然他知道在憲法上面預算其實屬於行政院的"},{"start":6836.499,"end":6852.112,"text":"一、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":6862.04,"end":6873.91,"text":"否則的話根本就不必理立法院啦不必理理會行政院嘛所以這醫生法精神是這樣的如此我希望就是說大家把這個東西要談清楚齁"},{"start":6876.047,"end":6894.063,"text":"我們假如弄一個法,那通過在核心性底下有問題的話,像這個法,我們這個計畫補償這樣增加一倍以上的預算。假如說這個我們沒有在核心性底下討論這個事情的話,那過去兩照那一說的預算,"},{"start":6898.186,"end":6924.959,"text":"要通過法通過都要執行,這個國家怎麼讓得下去呢?這個國家沒有辦法走下去的啊。我們知道有兩兆的反腦高齡等等。所以這個東西我希望大家冷靜一下。今天並沒有說所謂行政對顏素敏有任何苛刻。我希望顏素敏,我知道你MUD運氣你的選民爭取福利,這天經地義我都贊成。"},{"start":6926.059,"end":6943.813,"text":"我們大家不要情緒制言我今天盡量不要講情緒制言就是說因為一個政策的政策行程要政策評估一個政策優先訊息研訊費經費多少?說是100就是110億左右嘛那你假如增加了double的話就要變成26億變成50億占整個研訊委員會經費的47%"},{"start":6951.195,"end":6959.796,"text":"那它是加費了多少人?只是7%的人在研究這個東西7%嘛,7%到9%的人那原住民委員會他有很多政務要推動"},{"start":6961.318,"end":6989.534,"text":"人事部門、AOB還有很多這個地方的馬路等等﹖很多公共政策接動所以造成他可以動用資金,假如這樣的話當然他可以動用資金只剩12%而已所以我們現在講的不是說整個政府三兆多少,這個只有幾億而已我們講是一個因為政策行人上面他有固定的政策評估優先順序"},{"start":6992.884,"end":7006.949,"text":"比如說,剛才吳征仁委員講得很清楚,大家沒那麼硬,為什麼這麼硬幹什麼?我們還不是這麼硬,大家也會覺得很悶啊,到底這個要是幾億你們在爭什麼呢?你們執行長在爭搞什麼鬼?"},{"start":7011.704,"end":7028.871,"text":"我也不希望如果這樣一個不是等比喻的一個好邏輯上面去上我們回來這整個憲政體制上面來看前立婚姻原則 這樣可以的說 立法根本就不要了"},{"start":7029.881,"end":7052.052,"text":"你說要證明當然要證明行政院同意這是一個本來就是要這樣我們法國會多數怎麼通過的法你就要照做這個責任真是沒有辦法產生的所以我今天是在嘗試解決說我們大家同意的話用示範然後到物價指數每兩天調整一次這個跟行政院談還有空間"},{"start":7053.866,"end":7062.526,"text":"當然不行的話只有四前一途啦,我們大家在政委這裡,政委半天還是要回到合憲合法上面去談啦"},{"start":7065.71,"end":7067.311,"text":"一、請主席長針對本次協商各黨團所提的意見"},{"start":7088.294,"end":7113.972,"text":"再進一步研擬出世界解決方案．包括禁法補償、工糧收購、健保點值等．於下次協商會議時提出．二、我們下次協商時間定於．請各黨團幹部來關切一下．21號星期一早上．當天請主席長提出具體解決的方案．"},{"start":7116.343,"end":7129.455,"text":"各位黨團幹部對我這樣的一個結論有沒有意見?對,21號早上第二個勒,我們選擇24號,不行我們還要再加開協商所以我們先提21號星期一早上10點"},{"start":7131.923,"end":7152.81,"text":"我們在此當天再請主席長具體的提出來正好您大概有將近有三到四天可以去好好溝通一下顯然你這邊不提出大家可以看得到各黨團大家的意見紛紛都提出來了那因為我們今天有四個案我們下面要進入到考試委員的"},{"start":7154.11,"end":7161.397,"text":"考試委員人事同意權以及能源配比以及公正選拔我們還要往下推,我想請教各黨團幹部,要不要訂便當?"},{"start":7178.132,"end":7178.673,"text":"如果大家同意要繼續開會"},{"start":7189.602,"end":7217.588,"text":"沒關係,我們黨團協商到時候會徵詢各黨團的意見如果我們要持續開會下去的話我們現在總務部門要準備各位的午餐所以要徵詢一下大家這個每個都要徵詢而且考試委員人事同意權我們要進入到第二案那我想這樣的話,我知道各委員心中還是有一些話要講我建議是等到下一次主計長提出具體方案的時候大家再把意見提出來可能這樣會比較好一點,好嗎?"},{"start":7221.109,"end":7232.455,"text":"對,下禮拜一預計大概在下午另外一點就是說我們休息五分鐘之後我們進入第二案因為考試院人事同意權我們不能卡在這裡好不好好,那我們休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":7696.516,"end":7699.901,"text":"麻煩各黨團黨部工作夥伴通知一下黨團幹部,我們進來開會好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":7740.462,"end":7754.728,"text":"各黨團幹部通知一下工作夥伴隊,我們加緊時間好不好,我們等一下已經訂中午的午餐了好,謝謝我們各黨團幹部都到場了,現在大家請坐下"},{"start":7756.79,"end":7784.823,"text":"現在我們針對第二案第14屆考試院人事同意權案那113年10月4號已經交付協商現在就叫各位黨團幹部我們請柯建民總召請發言我剛才也有談當然今天重重之重還是有關於三大預算至於考試院人事同意權乃至於後面都有同意權"},{"start":7786.243,"end":7814.999,"text":"台灣大法院在試卷也暫時處分當然同意權裡面在立法院通過同意權起始總共五個條文29條、29條之一、30條、3條之一31條是當然是比較不重要,就通過以後報總統所以裡面有29條之一、30條之一被暫時處分乃至於29條的時候在向法庭的時候,黃常委員"},{"start":7816.079,"end":7838.23,"text":"那我問到一個問題,點出一些問題就是說,審查的時候可以找社會公正人士或是團體來參與審查,這個當然有變成外面人發聲為立法委員那這是立法院通過的法案,那我比較沉穩建議就是說"},{"start":7839.571,"end":7850.218,"text":"我相信大好官做到10月底這月底前應該事先出來我們看事先出來的文字是怎麼樣那我們再來討論這樣可能比較合理"},{"start":7855.969,"end":7878.886,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言那國民黨團、那個台灣民眾黨團那我如果針對這個精神發言的內容那我們針對第二案呢我們就是同意權行使我們就繼續溝通然後那個...好副總召請抱...抱歉齁各政黨總是要一次發言的嘛對不對不能說執政者在發言沒有沒有完全尊重請副...副總召請我想考試院的人事啊"},{"start":7881.161,"end":7909.491,"text":"我們要謝謝院長今天召集對考試院的人士是否能夠到立法院來審議提出了今天的朝野協商我想我們是樂觀其成畢竟我們國家考試要經過考試院的相關的這些相關單位來執行這些國家人才的這些八卒的工作那國民黨的立場"},{"start":7910.982,"end":7935.577,"text":"是對這件事是樂觀其成但是我們比較好奇就是到現在為止可能他的任期已經考試院的政府院長的任期可能已經結束了8月底結束但是我們比較好奇就是說執政黨到現在為止對這件事情到底是有沒有正式的提出來我們趕快來協商"},{"start":7937.983,"end":7956.854,"text":"是不是能夠盡快來對這些人事案（能夠進入實質的審查國民黨的立場是希望國家的這些人才的把柱（這個所有的這些程序不要有任何的延宕我們願意全力的來配合好不好好 謝謝我們台灣民眾黨黨團提出這個案子基本上就是善意"},{"start":7965.883,"end":7987.448,"text":"要不然一天到晚在媒體上面放話做梗圖說讓什麼國家考試沒有辦法舉行讓人看不下去所以我們就提案要審嘛那如果現在如果連執政黨自己都認為他們不急要等憲法法庭我們也OK啊"},{"start":7988.836,"end":8013.84,"text":"這種事情沒有什麼好爭執的啦那只是就請今天過了以後我們就依照我們的執政黨黨團的意見得到憲法法庭做出解釋以後那再來審查就不要一天到晚再繼續抹黑在野黨說在野黨都不審人事同意權不要在這邊講一套出去又講另外一套這樣就好了"},{"start":8015.704,"end":8036.329,"text":"好,謝謝黃總召發言,柯總召請二組發言一分鐘就好,感謝剛才副總召及黃總召所發言的樂觀其成基本上我印象中沒有做什麼惡意攻擊至少我不會這樣講不要笑得那麼詭異吧"},{"start":8041.243,"end":8050.049,"text":"我們在8月2號就發文了,坦白講那我想這一題大家有公私,因為將來沒有考試,考試院長都很麻煩那個考試我們已經承擔不起了,謝謝"},{"start":8053.107,"end":8070.135,"text":"那兩位長如果沒有的話三個黨團總長我來唸一下一個結論同意權行使我們就繼續溝通接下來進行第三案第三案就是能源配比專案報告同意嗎好謝謝我們現在各位黨團幹部我們現在進行第三案關於"},{"start":8072.81,"end":8083.768,"text":"第三案關於我們賴政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備諮詢案這是台灣民眾黨提出線請表達意見"},{"start":8086.287,"end":8102.366,"text":"這是台灣民眾黨黨團本來在院會裡面提出來的既然要進入協商冷凍期一個月我們也尊重目前立法院職權刑事法生效的法律它就要進入協商冷凍期我們覺得這個能源配比"},{"start":8103.027,"end":8128.476,"text":"跟電價政策非常的重要有必要請卓榮泰院長帶著經濟部部長相關的部會首長到院會裡面來進行專案報告因為是全體國人非常非常的關心雖然昨天在經濟委員會在委員會的層級有針對這件事情試圖的請我們的經濟部部長、郭智輝、郭部長"},{"start":8130.617,"end":8137.222,"text":"來進行說明不過我相信昨天的委員會結束了以後恐怕留給大家的問題"},{"start":8139.217,"end":8166.925,"text":"遠遠多過於解決的問題因為根本說不清楚講不明白嘛你昨天在整個經濟委員會討論的過程當中包括了未來的能源配比未來再生能源如何從現在到2022之前跳票嘛2025年說要到20現在延到2026年的時候說要到20%嘛那基本的路徑到底要怎麼達成盤點"},{"start":8169.276,"end":8192.211,"text":"需要的土地要從什麼地方來因為昨天的那個整個報告的內容我相信很多委員都有參與那我自己的評價最起碼從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場的評價是認為他留下來的問題比取決問題還要多所以我們還是認為有必要進行這個專案報告說清楚講明白"},{"start":8194.47,"end":8210.704,"text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團總召黃國昌的發言已經提出來他為什麼要請求召集朝野協商針對這個能源配比跟電價政策請問剩下兩位黨團有沒有哪一位要發言請傅昆吉總召、柯定斌總召請準備"},{"start":8214.685,"end":8234.467,"text":"我想這個是目前大概我們國家非常重要所重的一件重大的事情而且跟民生非常非常的息息相關對於到底今年已經漲了兩次電價那明年還要漲幾次電價"},{"start":8236.823,"end":8258.46,"text":"那過去已經2023年已經撥補了2500億在一後又撥補了500億那現在加上今年明年又再加2000億那總共加起來是可能本席一直在懷疑是不是我看錯資料要撥補5000億啊那接下來到底"},{"start":8259.827,"end":8261.129,"text":"三、研商有關三、研商有關三、研商有關"},{"start":8277.09,"end":8299.746,"text":"兩二一你都很辛苦這個到菜市場去萬屋皆漲就是因為電價漲所有的民生物資品全部都在大漲所以這關係到全國民生的問題我想這個是非常一個嚴肅的問題我們想盡快能夠請總統參議院長就我們國家能源發展的政策到底是怎麼樣全國人民有必要了解 謝謝"},{"start":8300.646,"end":8327.499,"text":"好,接下來我們謝謝,請民進黨黨團請發言有關於紅總召所提出能源配比這個專案報告當然剛才也談到昨天在委員會也提過當然還有一些沒有辦法適宜至於還有一些問題要問能夠體會那紅總剛才也談了嘛但是呢他並不是博普遷移台電整個的"},{"start":8328.439,"end":8343.472,"text":"整個財務結構是這樣他先增資然後今年在追算撥補一千億明年再一千億這樣的話他大概能夠整個財務結構相對健全能夠執意平衡當然他這中間還有要漲價的部分"},{"start":8351.039,"end":8376.933,"text":"那電當然是我們不可能一直用電去補助一些賺錢的行業這是一個社會公平的問題所以我們要再請院長來做專案報告我認為也無可啦沒關係啦可以的啦但是我們是覺得我們先把總預算很多題目慢慢推上來好不好要先順序先推一下同意啦沒有關係再來排時間"},{"start":8378.769,"end":8383.951,"text":"現在我們請經濟部郭部長請表達意見好嗎?好,謝謝謝謝韓院長以及各位委員大家好那麼以下針對能源配比跟這個電價政策我先做一個簡要的這個說明我國的能源"},{"start":8404.057,"end":8417.673,"text":"轉型政策以及再生能源為主軸．同時搭配低碳天然氣發電．並推動地熱、小水利等新能源的利用．穩定供電、多元綠能、減煤減碳．這樣與國際趨勢是一致的"},{"start":8424.605,"end":8450.662,"text":"那麼能源配比以2030年達燃氣五成．再生能源三成．燃煤兩成為目標那麼有關於這個電價的政策電價是否調整是由電價審議委員決定已經依立法院的決議由學者參加及民間團體代表所組成的外部委員人數過半"},{"start":8452.981,"end":8475.46,"text":"那麼電價審議將具有更專業以及代表性本市的電價調整審議委員秉持的照顧民生穩定電價以及兼顧產業競爭力這個兩項原則來進行民生用電含民生用電一共有95%是沒有調整的那麼景氣不好的產業"},{"start":8476.909,"end":8477.029,"text":"以上報告謝謝國部長"},{"start":8492.725,"end":8517.454,"text":"到時候專案報告你剛剛講的內容你可能還要再講一次那各位黨團幹部我想我嘗試性的提出一個我的建議就是各黨團同意10月25號星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席提出賴清德總統政府所提能源配比及電價政策專案"},{"start":8519.366,"end":8520.609,"text":"報告並備質詢．質詢人數由國民黨團推派7位．"},{"start":8527.184,"end":8540.074,"text":"民進黨團推派七位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行每位委員質詢詢答時間為15分鐘質詢順序依例授權議事處處理名單請於10月24日星期四中午12點前交議事處會診預時視同放棄請問各黨團幹部針對行政院院長到院專案報告"},{"start":8555.928,"end":8558.453,"text":"電價能源配比以及電價政策（有沒有其他寶貴意見?好,請吳思瑤幹事長請發言"},{"start":8564.538,"end":8586.723,"text":"謝謝院長辛苦了那剛剛看到這個運營結論現在大家討論一下方向上我們也都尊重在野黨提出這樣專案報告的請求那我還是就是說再希望再爭取一下因為從上一次的第一次的那個協商也有這個議案那時候我們就希望主張因為整個能源政策、電價"},{"start":8588.443,"end":8589.524,"text":"〈中央政府總預算案．第14屆考試院人事同意權．"},{"start":8604.795,"end":8606.637,"text":"中共黨的立場是同意這個專案報告（但是它跟追加檢的預算應當是一併來考量（這樣委員在質詢上更全面（"},{"start":8627.279,"end":8641.482,"text":"那政策是有連帶性的,我們做出這樣的建議。謝謝,但是專案報告跟預算編列它性質是不一樣的。以前也有,以前也有。郭秘書長,你不要阻擋什麼可以不可以,就是有人在談話,請各黨,不是你在參加朝鮮商會。我們請,沒問題,請林思明,區長請發言。是,謝謝主席。"},{"start":8651.924,"end":8667.678,"text":"我想針對吳世耀幹事長的這個說要併附來追加減這部分來在專案報裡面的署名我想這是根本兩回事啊我們現在的專報是行政院來就我們的能源配比還有能源結構來做專報怎麼會牽扯到這個所謂追加減預算的問題呢"},{"start":8672.262,"end":8672.522,"text":"總統請發言,然後請蔡議員與幹事長請準備"},{"start":8694.448,"end":8715.494,"text":"這個是我們台灣民眾黨的提案台灣民眾黨的提案就是針對能源配比跟電價政策來進行專案報告那那個跟追加減的預算是兩個不同層次的事情上次在協商的時候我已經清楚的表達了這個立場那民進黨如果要提什麼追加減預算的報告那就請他們自己提嘛"},{"start":8716.895,"end":8732.934,"text":"他們的建議並不在我提案的範圍當中我們提案的內容非常的具體明確就是按照能源配比一天要政策進行專案報告那這個金夫惡毒被拉卸商也不是拉卸商反正現在新法就強制進入卸商嘛"},{"start":8733.615,"end":8746.251,"text":"然後等一個月嘛那所以我們就靜待嘛靜待協商期滿的時候就按照一次規則來處理嘛那院長所預擬的這個決議啊我們原則上是沒有什麼"},{"start":8747.438,"end":8764.797,"text":"沒有什麼問題啦因為771嘛按照政黨的席次來做比例上面的分配我們也都尊重那我只是想說可不可以爭取一下說那個美國委員巡達的時間啊可以稍微再長一點因為我們台灣民眾黨只有一個人"},{"start":8765.918,"end":8788.209,"text":"是不是每位委員巡達的時間?因為我看現在如果每位委員巡達的時間15分鐘的話加起來是15個人嘛15個人的話你如果說一個小時可以進行4個人嘛大概4個小時多一點點就結束了嘛你如果說以上午下午都有時間可以用大概可以用到5個多小時的話"},{"start":8789.289,"end":8810.576,"text":"那尋答的時間是不是可以稍微斟酌﹐把它延長到﹐譬如說像20分鐘這個樣子﹐因為我時間大概算過了﹐如果到20分鐘的話﹐剛好是用滿一整個整天嘛﹐那只是說這樣子的時間上﹐我只是提這樣一個建議啦﹐其他黨團﹐其他黨團同不同意﹐我們都尊重"},{"start":8813.074,"end":8819.818,"text":"科總召、副總召,如果這樣的話,黃總召提這個,我們可不可以再改為992?等一下我講一下"},{"start":8822.659,"end":8840.451,"text":"關於專案報告,剛才我們民進黨團有提到就和追加減預算是蔡英文幹事長先發言剛才我們提到,是不是可以跟追加預算在一起嗎?正式和預算絕對是相關的"},{"start":8842.432,"end":8865.749,"text":"為什麼要增加預算一千億?總預算裡面還明年度還一千億當然這可以併談,假如不併談我們也不堅持,當然不堅持因為我跟曹偉強彼此非常尊重嘛有些大家有疑問的話問清楚,包括剛才賀文綺總長說要補充五千億所以說有誤解才會產生這種結果,大家談清楚"},{"start":8870.825,"end":8898.651,"text":"這次沒有到五千億那...明天這次完畢了我們現在只剩下...剩下...這定價也賬完了嘛剩下兩個...兩個追加預算OK你老闆只有這樣一個不要找我沒意見因為追加預算總是還是要一個追加預算總是...院長還要再報告一次啦都無所謂那...大家如共如情策沒關係那我們...我們得去問至於..."},{"start":8901.511,"end":8926.049,"text":"過去都是771啦有任何方式啦過去有常常就是說臺聯報告時代一樣要求底下算上寫我會當一個給他就是我們當一個給他過去啦常常就是說我們黨是不是可以當一個給民眾黨反正你們合在一起嘛就私下"},{"start":8927.58,"end":8937.973,"text":"信息是長期以來這個都是一定的啦這個長期以來都是一定的長期以來都是一定的要死還要生啊我們都扭一顆蝦魚就變兩顆嘛因為分30分鐘嘛"},{"start":8943.721,"end":8970.956,"text":"兩、研商有關 吳淳淳也有人問嘛 這樣也可以解決啊大家自己調配就好 國際中常理都是這樣處理特別謝謝柯總召啊 這個總預算不偏然後現在連國民黨的這些扣打你也在幫我們分配啦這個真的是 執政黨已經管到在野黨來了我們老柯是草野都在管"},{"start":8973.298,"end":8997.169,"text":"立法院秘書長也是我們柯總召的管區,他一併管秘書長不是在這裡吵一槍,他可以懷孕了沒有關係,有意見大家都可以講老柯啊,你在這裡30年了,真的啦除了男人生小孩不行以外,其他都可以啦,我們慢慢討論沒關係啦就男人不可能懷孕嘛對不對"},{"start":8998.81,"end":9005.918,"text":"如果柯總召可以懷孕,我也很佩服他。其實我們既然是開會,從早上法定期間開到下午5點半,那是不是我們就把這個時間把它充分一點?"},{"start":9022.143,"end":9049.018,"text":"這個15分鐘還是20分鐘其實沒有這麼嚴格啦其實大家都可以討論嘛沒有什麼事不能討論啦那是不是我們如果過去就是771的話771的話我們是不是可以調整到20分鐘讓民眾也感覺就是說我們既然是這麼重大的能源政策的議題讓我們是不是就可以啊一個比較完整的一直到下班時間我們完整的把它討論完"},{"start":9051.12,"end":9057.243,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個黃總早所提到那個是不是有這個質詢的時間一個單位是20分鐘我想這樣的話會有一個比較完整的一個詢答確實"},{"start":9063.636,"end":9079.562,"text":"也不會像走馬燈這樣一直跑來跑去好不好好謝謝院長好第一個啦我就說我們就按照本來的人數分配也不需要什麼其他政黨讓不讓的問題"},{"start":9081.543,"end":9108.565,"text":"就按照這個原則定下去就好第二個我只是認為在上班的時間當中算完了那個人數跟15分鐘的時間其實一天院會的時間沒有辦法真正被充分的利用所以我在提議所以就拉到20分鐘你拉到20分鐘了以後你說會到晚上嗎?也不會到晚上啊大概下午5點大概就結束了在整個程序上面"},{"start":9109.467,"end":9111.595,"text":"在整個時間的計算上面一點問題都沒有"},{"start":9114.965,"end":9143.845,"text":"跟各位黨員說明因為我們現在草稿是寫25號是星期五嘛那星期五其實院會都要進行報告事項那報告事項原則上都會經過差不多一個小時所以真正開始讓行政院長來做專案報告他要先說明30分鐘之後大家才每個人15分鐘20分鐘進去771原則上過去這個禮拜五就會比較長除非我們把它改成是星期二早上9點那會時間當然就更充裕"},{"start":9144.685,"end":9154.094,"text":"所以25號或是哪一天當然大家是因為是草稿可以去選擇或去考慮因為這星期五要跟辦禮拜二也可以"},{"start":9155.953,"end":9160.856,"text":"我們還是交換一下意見 這個時間怎麼安排都可以討論現在是這樣喔 因為依我們過去以來的慣例就是譬如說總預算的諮詢 15分鐘嘛 一個人"},{"start":9181.489,"end":9184.79,"text":"我們在政黨質詢或者是個別議員都是15乘以2、30就15是一個單位如果今天要因為專案報告調成一位變20分鐘以後可能就是一個慣例"},{"start":9198.295,"end":9218.391,"text":"所以為了讓我覺得今天我們的出發點都是願意讓小黨多一點時間討論但是不要去把過去的這個規定15分鐘15分鐘制如果這樣就是面對以後可能都變20分鐘成為一個單位所以目標是讓小黨的朋友們可以多一點時間那我真的建議對我們就著聲992這樣是OK的"},{"start":9222.074,"end":9224.315,"text":"其實對於民眾黨來講他們可以從一位20分可以問到兩位30分這樣這個慣例不要輕易的去我覺得這樣可能請大家可以來支持"},{"start":9246.516,"end":9264.032,"text":"那我再修正一下各黨團如果同意的話我們10月29號星期二開始進行行政院長率同相關部會所長列席提出能源配比及電價政策專案報告並被質詢那質詢的人數我們國民黨團推派9位"},{"start":9266.835,"end":9278.92,"text":"民進黨團推派九位（台灣民眾黨黨團推派兩位委員進行（每位委員詢答時間15分鐘（質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理（名單請於10月28日至中午12點以前（送進議事處會診（欲時適同放棄請問各位黨黨幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":9291.24,"end":9294.944,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文草案修正草案"},{"start":9305.236,"end":9323.229,"text":"由副坤崎委員等16人提案（113年7月12日交付協商（二、徐宇峥委員等20位委員提案（113年7月12日交付協商（我們現在請提案委員副坤崎委員請說明謝謝經濟部郭部長的備詢列席謝謝"},{"start":9329.903,"end":9355.717,"text":"在副分局委員發言之前我們先介紹我們今天列席的各位單位的部會內閣首長首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長熱情歡迎再來歡迎我們中央選舉委員會李主任委員熱情歡迎第三位歡迎司法院民視廳的周廳長熱情歡迎法務部的廖參事熱情歡迎還有我們張法官熱情歡迎謝謝"},{"start":9358.591,"end":9360.32,"text":"提案委員、副科技總召請發言"},{"start":9394.435,"end":9414.363,"text":"謝謝院長我想從2016年到現在民進黨能夠執政也能夠第三次的來連任拿到中華民國的這樣的一個執政權"},{"start":9420.39,"end":9441.733,"text":"我想應該是除了好好的來施政以外我們的國家各種體制是應該要安定的那明明憲法就這個公職人員選罷法都寫得很清楚總統副總統的任期"},{"start":9444.795,"end":9468.346,"text":"也包括縣市長、立法委員甚至議員、村里長代表都有明確的這個任期與民有約這個人民經過神聖的投票以後會制定這個四年的任期是一定有他的原因讓他能夠確實能夠好好的來施政"},{"start":9471.072,"end":9499.071,"text":"把人民所託的事項（能夠把它一一的來完成但是我們發現（最近此風不可漲國家社會的動盪（非全民之福有什麼事情尤其在國會大家都可以討論中央的政策都可以討論只要是有利於人民的話真理是越說越明"},{"start":9501.243,"end":9529.948,"text":"在罷免實在是最後一個非常極端的手段這是雖然是國家賦予的一個權利人民的權利但是我們要審慎來使用我想從過去不管這麼多的縣市長也好還是議員也好還是立委也好各政黨都有被圍剿的目標但是我要特別強調"},{"start":9532.448,"end":9558.594,"text":"這個難道這樣擾攘不安能夠讓政治讓我們台灣的政局能夠更加安定嗎尤其現在聽說明年有所謂的大罷免潮這對於國會所有的這些國會議員依法行使職權啊產生了莫大的這樣的壓迫跟威嚇尤其對在野黨來講"},{"start":9561.161,"end":9589.929,"text":"外面有很多一些不實的謠言什麼在野黨有提出啊要罷免執政黨二十席立委的相關的這些所謂的標的人物本席要代表國民黨在這裡嚴正的表達從來就沒有這樣的一個事情不管是我們黨團還是我們黨中央朱立倫主席講得很清楚"},{"start":9591.178,"end":9611.05,"text":"這都不是國家之福我們不能動盪我們從來沒有去規劃任何的相關的這些事務完全沒有我們想在這裡以正視聽做一次講清楚絕對沒有這樣的事情那我也沒不希望說國家執政者用他強大的國家的資源跟優勢來壓迫在野黨讓在野黨的國會議員沒有辦法好好的來執行職務"},{"start":9619.269,"end":9646.789,"text":"尤其尤其剛剛剛剛才在基隆這個行使完成的這個市長罷免案這對整個國家或是地方都是一個莫大成本的一個耗費這在期間是不是整個在地的市民要面對這樣的一個撞擊在整體市政府的施政當中"},{"start":9649.648,"end":9674.776,"text":"是不是能夠很完整順暢的來執行職務這都非國家之福那接下來有各種不同樣的風聲很多但是我們還是要覺得國民有的權利我們尊重不管這25%是否合理"},{"start":9676.061,"end":9701.282,"text":"尤其50%、55%、60%當選的這些公職人員卻用25%要去否決他的職務這個比例就不符合這個相關的原則不符合民意的託付更何況現在還有眾多這個叫做以假亂真以假亂真"},{"start":9704.21,"end":9723.518,"text":"所以這個一支筆幾個人用就可以抄了一堆所謂的連署書我想這個部分也不只是今天本黨所提出來我們也很清楚民進黨的選委會也曾經不斷地對這個問題在質疑"},{"start":9726.308,"end":9749.171,"text":"到底這些聯署是否為本人聯署過去也聽到有所謂的都已經過世了怎麼還會參與聯署而且過世多時所以我們要把人民神聖的權利能夠讓他確實來行使而不會被冒用"},{"start":9751.829,"end":9775.208,"text":"所以我們國民黨本席也提出要確切實施是國民的權益而不是被他人來冒用來取代所以必須在所有連署的時候要比照這個總統的大選的連署必須要有身份證、正反面的影本還有發證日期這個已是"},{"start":9776.99,"end":9785.283,"text":"對國民行使他的權益的時候 這個神聖的權益的時候 不會被其他任何人來給他冒用盜用"},{"start":9786.57,"end":9812.143,"text":"能夠讓我們的一切（能夠更加的清楚（更加的確定（不要讓人民的權益（被無端的冒用行使（所以提出修法（也經過院會的二讀（經過二讀（然後朝野協商（今天院會的協商（就是我們必要的程序的一環（因為在行使最後國會的權益（"},{"start":9815.332,"end":9819.339,"text":"國會就代表百分之百全國的民意當國會要最後做決議之前"},{"start":9820.595,"end":9843.134,"text":"我們一定要執權行事法（所以必須要經過院長的朝野協商所以我們今天所提出來的原因都非常的清楚保障人民的權益不會被冒用盜用濫用所以我們必須要很負責任的提出修法讓這個未來能夠更加的清楚更加的明確"},{"start":9844.615,"end":9854.858,"text":"在這裡提出也希望草野都能夠支持這不是針對誰、針對哪一個黨這是所有的各級公職一體適用不分黨派一體適用謝謝"},{"start":9865.673,"end":9882.511,"text":"謝謝院長我想我的發言先不要進入條文的實質我想跟院長先請教一下依照過去的議事慣例跟議事規則那任何單一的法案那淨附二讀的方式那首先要先由該"},{"start":9883.912,"end":9900.623,"text":"提案的黨團先召集黨團協商（所以我手上也有拿到議事處那正式發文給民進黨團（也就是有關徐宇珍委員或是傅昆齊委員兩位（所提據的選罷法部分條約修正草案（進覆二讀之後由國民黨黨團負責召集協商（所以這兩個"},{"start":9906.867,"end":9924.105,"text":"一案都是國民黨的提案（所以國民黨的黨團協商應當是優先進行（可是都還沒有進行到（然後就已經提到院長主持的朝野協商（在程序上是已經快轉了一些（就是跳過了黨團協商（那當然大家知道這個選罷法這個"},{"start":9926.807,"end":9946.624,"text":"徵意性是需要好好來討論的任何一個程序都不應當來僭越了所以是想要請教院長我覺得在程序上今天不應當在這裡就直接進入您主持的協商就一程序就該程序該怎麼進行我先在程序上做這樣的表述那我沒有進入實質條文的討論謝謝"},{"start":9950.371,"end":9956.534,"text":"選法法每個政黨大概有不一樣的立場那台灣民眾黨之前柯文哲主席我們公開受訪的時候就講了第一個我們並不贊成去調高目前選法法投票的門檻"},{"start":9977.563,"end":10000.444,"text":"但是在連署的階段去真正能夠確保反映連署人的意志而不是被連署那裝腳名冊、抄來抄去這樣的亂象必須要被遏止那我覺得今天黨團協商老實講啦大概就是看能不能有共識但看起來是不會有共識嘛那不會有共識我們接下來就按照程序來進行"},{"start":10005.942,"end":10010.483,"text":"其實負責召集協商黨團要先協商一下過水然後院長來協商我們都知道一定合格研製的像兩黨都不一樣"},{"start":10031.653,"end":10059.276,"text":"那問題副總召剛才也談到所謂的什麼CNC猜題的問題我現在還搞不清楚國民黨到底是哪個案子我是要剛才委員所提供的談的也不合道理其實我們今天都知道將來所有程序就照程序來處理大概不會有爭辯那下禮拜國民黨黨團召集一下假如沒有結論就送來我們再協商一次就再處理就處理也無所謂這樣可能比較大家比較"},{"start":10060.765,"end":10062.927,"text":"我要特別謝謝民進黨團執政者所不斷提出要符合程序正義、要符合議事規則"},{"start":10089.057,"end":10113.717,"text":"國民黨團在這裡清楚表達我們今天由院長召集的協商對於選罷法的協商是非常的清楚完全符合議事規則而且是2016年民進黨籍的院長蘇嘉全先生所定下來不管是這個院會的協商還是委員會的協商只要有經過其中的任何一次就可以交院會來處理"},{"start":10115.134,"end":10137.233,"text":"那今天是由我們把這個成績是拉高了就由院長來召集因為這是近乎二讀的案子而且修正了條文我待會會我謝謝柯總長關心我待會特別送一份到您辦公室我們提出來的案子就很簡單門檻沒有調整但是要確實保護"},{"start":10140.047,"end":10167.221,"text":"國民行使權益不會被冒用、盜用、濫用我們是保護全國國人行使公民的權利所以我們是把這個連署要明確化並沒有調整門檻所以現在不管是國民黨也好我們是負責任的提出這樣的一個法案而且也經過正常的程序請院長來提出召集"},{"start":10168.343,"end":10190.94,"text":"那如果柯總召覺得這個討論是不是可以更充分本席尊重沒有問題請院長辛苦一點我們找個時間掉頭髮我知道看得出來我們再來院長我講一下很簡單"},{"start":10192.662,"end":10220.442,"text":"呃,剛才大家都很善意啦好,不同招數講得很善意但是我為什麼講說施任制一次干你剛才自己有講到施任制的問題所以我不知道你的版本怎樣所謂誠意正義當然共同遵守當然從蘇院,剛才講到蘇院長開始不管你說不管委員會或院會有一個草牙箱就可以不配已經委員會完畢以後底面過水沒有關係至少要院長主持草牙箱這是我們大家的"},{"start":10221.303,"end":10243.775,"text":"要共同遵守,那既然要我們過水一下再來的話因為下次草野鄉我們希望這個內政委員會我們委員也把找來大家談一談,不行就表決嘛,就審議處理嘛因為關係這個法案的人大部分都是不少,今天山長來香港內政委員會的委員我們把他請來,招委長等等都要請來,這樣比較完整一點"},{"start":10245.496,"end":10261.585,"text":"謝謝柯總召發言 現在請黃國昌總召請發言兩位部長 主委跟部長請準備 等一下請表達一下立場好不好好 把那個程 那個剛剛都在講程序性的事情嘛 那台灣民眾黨黨團覺得程序性的事情就要按照之前的意思慣例"},{"start":10263.843,"end":10275.41,"text":"走就好了啦那到底是不是有違反程序正義恐怕也不是任何一個黨團說了就算所以就這個部分就看院長才是看要不要請秘書長跟大家說明一下"},{"start":10279.611,"end":10285.893,"text":"李主委跟劉部長有沒有什麼意見要表示?我們尊重貴院的這個程序,如果是要在另外走程序的話,那我們就先不提供意見。非常好,謝謝李主委。那劉部長請。"},{"start":10304.178,"end":10318.568,"text":"謝謝院長跟三個黨團的幹部我來稍微講一下這次朝野黨團協商的部分大概就是集中在我們傅坤祺委員跟徐宇貞委員裡面提的三個爭點有關第一個爭點就是要罷免提議跟連署要應付身份證影本的規定我們會認為說在個資跟資安上面會有一些疑慮而且涉及選務執行的層面"},{"start":10331.477,"end":10349.914,"text":"這個要多討論第二個爭點是在於說罷免提議人跟連署人應該填寫國民身份證的發證日期一般我們所知道國民身份證大家都會背出身份證號碼但是發證日期大概會一般民眾記憶可以常常知道的"},{"start":10350.675,"end":10372.482,"text":"所以也會增加一些困擾但是我們也是尊重大院在處理要不要處理的妥適性第三個就是要求中選會要建置一個電子系統提供罷免免嫌人徵求提議我們認為說在罷免案的提議人數已經大幅下修而且上一次修改公職選罷法76條是在112年的6月9號"},{"start":10377.303,"end":10397.196,"text":"現在如果在臨時再做一些更動的話（會影響未來在選務跟選證上面的執行上的困擾以上簡單跟各位委員報告好,謝謝劉部長,也謝謝司法院列席的各位官員,謝謝那我想各位黨團幹部念一下今天寫上的結論,大家聽聽看一、選辦法我們就請各黨團繼續溝通"},{"start":10399.818,"end":10420.043,"text":"二、今天我們協商到此為止三、店家配筆專案報告已經完成簽字我們10月29日星期二當天進行還有當天我們不再處理臨時提案各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有的話我們就現在散會好嗎好再一次感謝各位內席的部會首長也謝謝各黨團幹部我們散會"},{"start":10430.385,"end":10434.209,"text":"跟大家溫馨提示一下,等一下我們有便當,大家可以帶一個回去,好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:01:19.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:01:21.487000+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團的幹部都到現場一起來開朝野協商，謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:01:21.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:01:23.348000+08:00","text":"沒關係，已經有一個書記長來，我們\n先開，邊開邊等，因為時間已經到了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:01:37.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:01:52.198000+08:00","text":"現在跟各位黨團幹部來介紹今天我們列席的行政院閣員，我們首先非常歡迎行政院的陳主計\n長，熱情歡迎；還有財政部的阮政務次長，熱情歡迎；第三位是經濟部的郭部長，熱情歡迎。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:01:53.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:02:03.383000+08:00","text":"謝謝各黨團幹部，今天很難得，在我們這個會期的朝野協商柯建銘總召是第一次出現，真的\n是非常歡迎。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:02:05.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:02:42.283000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，今天我們協商主要是討論 4 個重點，第一個是研商有關「114 年度\n中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案」、「113 年中央政府總\n預算追加預算案」；二、研商有關「第 14 屆考試院人事同意權」案；三、研商有關「賴清德政\n府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢」案；四、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文\n修正草案」案，總共有 4個案子。","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:02:43.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:02:43.923000+08:00","text":"請各黨團幹部發言，先請柯建銘總召。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:02:58.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:03:02.886000+08:00","text":"院長、各位協商代表、各部會的列席人員，大家好。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:03:04.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:03:15.669000+08:00","text":"今天天氣不錯，陽光燦爛，大家\n心情好一點，今天能夠進行朝野協商，當然很感謝韓院長召集，然後各黨都來了。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:03:16.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:04:14.528000+08:00","text":"我想今天朝\n野協商最主要的目的就是我們是要來解決問題，解決問題最重要，我們知道總質詢到下禮拜二\n就結束了，換言之，這個會期連總質詢都快結束了，我們四大預算都還沒起頭，當然有三個預\n算必須請行政院院長來做報告，我希望今天大家秉持一個能夠解決問題的方向來談，大家儘量\n就是像上次我們吃和解飯一樣，是要來解決問題而不是來製造新的問題，否則的話，這三大預\n算在這個預算會期都還沒有開始審查，我想國人自有評斷，對每一黨都不好，對立法院也不好\n，我今天一開始就先從原則、方向來談。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:04:15.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:04:31.483000+08:00","text":"第二個要談的就是現在有 4 個案子，我們期待的就是先處理預算，再來談另外兩個題目，就\n是考試院人事同意權以及選罷法的問題。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:04:32.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:04:54.621000+08:00","text":"今天我們先 focus 在預算上面，但是其他的部分也可以\n談，我們秉持一個原則，全部照程序來，大家就不要再吵了，今天對於這三大預算的方向待會\n協 2\n民進黨黨團會提出一個嘗試性的方案，讓大家看看可不可以。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:04:56.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:05:42.462000+08:00","text":"至於第二個考試院人事同意權的\n部分，我相信在這個月底以前大法官釋憲應該會出來，那釋憲當然和同意權行使有關，包括第\n二十九條之一、第三十條、第三十條之一，這裡面有三條被暫時處分，這個關乎到整個人事同\n意權的審查要如何進行，所以我認為這個同意權行使大概很快……大法官釋憲在這個月底前也\n理當出來了，接著我們就可以 follow 這個新的遊戲規則來處理同意權的行使，這是有關同意權\n的行使。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:05:43.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:06:20.480000+08:00","text":"至於選罷法乃至於其他很多法案，當然我認為照程序來處理就可以，既然國民黨黨團\n有行文給韓院長，要來做關於選罷法部分條文的朝野協商，我們明天會有院會，我認為我們要\n面對很多問題，總質詢於下禮拜二結束，我希望預算能先行，接下來有關的法案，我們也照程\n序來處理，沒有關係。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:06:20.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:06:51.345000+08:00","text":"也就是說，韓院長可以再召集一個協商，照道理講，逕付二讀，過去也可以委員會先協商一\n下，過水一下，請院長來協商，今天既然已經到院長這邊來，我也期待就是說，有關於選罷法\n，院長主持協商一次，假如說沒有結論，照程序來，該怎麼處理我們就大家一起來面對，況且\n這個會期後面還有一些法案，也必須要有一個固定的遊戲規則。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:06:53.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:07:05.653000+08:00","text":"我的開頭講的是說，傅總召坐\n在我對面，大家都是常常四目相視、釋出善意。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:07:06.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:07:12.255000+08:00","text":"你看大家的眼神都應該是期待有一個結果，今天不是要來這裡「相嚷」的，再「嚷」\n下去就沒意思了，再「嚷」下去，立法院根本沒有 function 啦！","quality":0.569},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:07:22.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:07:35.660000+08:00","text":"對於院長、對於各黨團也非常不\n好，所以今天在這樣的原則底下，我先提出我的一些看法，假如我的看法不對的話，期待各位\n指正，也沒有關係啦，大家要談嘛。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:07:39.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:07:43.248000+08:00","text":"第一個，當然重中之重是原住民禁伐補償，高金素梅也在這裡。","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:07:43.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:07:56.623000+08:00","text":"原住民禁伐補償從民國 82 年\n省府時代就有了，為什麼要禁伐補償？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:07:56.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:08:49.318000+08:00","text":"因為有一些包括水源保護區、水庫等等 150 公尺內禁止\n砍伐，所以有補償的問題，同時，105 年的時候通過的法案，也是原住民禁伐補償以及造林補助\n，這兩個法是一起的，所以他們補助款都是從省府……從早期都是 2 萬塊，後來簡東明立委提\n出來以後，2015 年 12 月 18 號通過了，變成 3 萬，這個我們也認了，現在當然有委員提案，有\n5萬也有 6萬，後來表決是 6萬。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:08:50.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:08:59.920000+08:00","text":"我這裡的看法就是說，我們先從一個法治國的概念來談，我們\n所謂的法治國就是說權力分立原則。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:09:04.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:09:51.252000+08:00","text":"立法院依照憲法第六十三條，立法院立法委員有議決預算\n案、法律案、宣戰案、媾和案等等之權，這是憲法所賦予立法委員的職責，而行政院的預算，\n依憲法第五十八條，行政院編列預算讓立法委員來審查，增修條文也是這樣規定，行政院必須\n對立法院負責，有被監督的責任，有被監督以及被質詢的責任，那我們有質詢的權力，就是說\n權力分立原則底下，我們希望這個國家、法治國能夠這樣順利的走下去，才能夠走到今天，這\n是臺灣民主的驕傲。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:09:53.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:10:12.605000+08:00","text":"我常常講說，另外，我們從有關於憲法第七十條，立法院在審查時，立法委員不可做預算的\n增加，立法委員在做職權行使的時候，不可做預算的增加。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:10:13.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:10:19.870000+08:00","text":"憲法第七十條也明定得很清楚，我\n相信大家長期以來都謹守這個原則以及分際。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:10:21.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:10:42.580000+08:00","text":"另外，大法官釋字第 264 號解釋上面也是如此，\n你增加了預算或是調整等等，就會讓行政院失去了它權力的來源，責任政治就沒有辦法產生了\n協 3\n，預算是它在編的，你要移來移去還是要增加什麼，這就為憲法所不許可，大法官釋字第 391\n號解釋得很清楚。","quality":0.616},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:10:50.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:11:17.176000+08:00","text":"我今天在講這個就是我們可能會碰到另外一個法案，也就是有關於預算法，\n1998 年預算法通過，預算法第九十一條寫得很清楚，立法委員在做法律案的時候要增加預算，\n必須徵詢行政院的意見以及找到替代財源。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:11:20.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:11:30.543000+08:00","text":"就是一個法律案要增加預算，要徵詢行政院的意見\n，然後找到替代財源，這在預算法第九十一條規定得很清楚。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:11:31.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:11:41.468000+08:00","text":"同理，在預算法第五條和第七條\n也有一些規範，乃至於財劃法第三十八條也有寫清楚，都是有同樣的規範。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:11:47.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:12:25.176000+08:00","text":"財政紀律法也有這\n樣的規範，財政紀律法規範得也很清楚，財政紀律法第五條，有關於立法委員提法律案的時候\n要考慮到財政紀律法的規範，就是在第五條，如果大幅增加，也就是說 3 萬變 6 萬也要有資金\n來源；同樣的法，財政紀律法第七條寫得更清楚，所有法律案的規定要符合財政紀律法。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:12:26.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:12:37.023000+08:00","text":"換言\n之，就是提一個法律案的時候不可寫明是固定經費以及比例，甚至也不可增加基金。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:12:38.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:12:58.499000+08:00","text":"從這些法\n制上面來看待的時候，我們如何在憲法，以至於大法官釋憲，以及預算法、財政紀律法，乃至\n於財劃法上面，我們共同找出一個合法合憲，又可解套的辦法。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:13:00.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:13:01.433000+08:00","text":"為什麼這麼講呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:13:03.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:13:30.943000+08:00","text":"以後我們會\n常常碰到，最近很多法案涉及預算的，常常在委員會也在審查，造成很大的困擾，我希望大家\n秉持遵從憲法，乃至於大法官釋憲以及財政紀律法、預算法這整個主軸上面，我們好好的來面\n對這個問題。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:13:33.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:13:54.129000+08:00","text":"我嘗試提案有沒有可能，以前是 2 萬，從 82 年開始，到 2015 年的時候變成 3 萬，但是這次\n也有修正，就是第三款，隨物價波動調整，每兩年調整一次。","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:13:54.129000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:14:16.021000+08:00","text":"所以我比較建議的就是是不是這\n次從 3萬先到 4萬，後面那一段就照那個法上面寫的照物價波動每兩年調整一次？","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:14:16.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:14:22.585000+08:00","text":"我是覺得電價漲個十幾趴就被罵死了，這種補償一下子變成 double，感覺也不成比例。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:14:37.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:14:55.672000+08:00","text":"況且這\n些原住民保留地全國有幾十萬公頃，雖然它是要嚴格審查的，但是有時候過於浮濫，所以有些\n人被移送法辦，就是胡亂編列，然後大家隨便申請。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:14:56.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:15:10.179000+08:00","text":"所以我們在基於國家法律上面，能夠替大家好好的來協商，是不是我們先提高到 4 萬，後面\n那一段我們就照每兩年調整一次那個文字？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:15:11.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:15:14.801000+08:00","text":"我是覺得這樣的話，可能行政院會答應得比較快，\n這個不行的話就很麻煩，只剩下釋憲一條路了，我希望大家能夠找一個解決的方式來解決，以\n上是我的淺見，請大家斟酌。好嗎？","quality":0.366},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:15:14.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:15:21.152667+08:00","text":"謝謝柯建銘總召的發言，這是這一個會期到現在，朝野協商最和顏悅色的一次，非常感謝，\n但也提出具體方案，3 萬到 4 萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:15:21.152667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:15:27.504333+08:00","text":"我們請國民黨團發言好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:15:27.504333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:15:33.856000+08:00","text":"國民黨團請發言，民眾黨團請準\n備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:15:33.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:16:55.471000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡首先要謝謝院長今天來召集協商，9 月 20 號在野黨赫然發現送到立法院\n的中央總預算，竟然都沒有把院會通過的法律案、主決議案完整的編列進去，國家不可以做違\n法的事情，立法院正式三讀通過的法案，也經過總統府的公告，在限期內沒有看到有任何覆議\n的情況，但是行政院可以不編列預算，然後送到立法院來，這不只是嚴重的藐視國會，也是對\n韓院長非常的不尊重。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:16:57.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:17:18.518000+08:00","text":"從 9 月 20 號到現在，經過了將近一個月的時間，整個執政者的操作鋪天\n蓋地，各種網軍的各種攻擊，我要謝謝院長今天召集朝野協商，讓我們有一個把事實讓國人了\n解的機會。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:17:23.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:18:09.228000+08:00","text":"協 4\n確實最近有風、有雨、有颱風、有淹水，我們要再次強調，這是一個基本的常識，9 月 20 號\n立法院程序委員會所退回的中央政府總預算，是明年民國 114年的總預算，立法院還沒有開始正\n式審查，只是發現了他們違法，該編列的預算沒有編列，而且浮濫的情況非常嚴重，把國家跟\n人民當提款機，在這種情況之下，才決定先退回程序委員會，並沒有進入實質的審查。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:18:11.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:18:47.979000+08:00","text":"而政論\n節目、網軍側翼卻是鋪天蓋地的在所有選區不斷的宣傳治水預算沒有了，救災、救難、治水預\n算都沒有了，都是國民黨、民眾黨把預算刪掉了、擋掉了，我想我們在這裡要向全國國人誠摯\n的表達，子虛烏有，這是一個國家級的團隊在造謠，是完完全全沒有的事情。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:18:50.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:19:15.100000+08:00","text":"今年所有救災、\n救命、救苦的預算在去年都已經通過，今（113）年國家在執行的預算都在去年年底、今年年初\n就已經通過了，而現在立法院發生重大爭議的預算是明年的預算，審議都還沒有開始，何來的\n刪除跟退回？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:19:16.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:19:17.361000+08:00","text":"何來的擋治水預算？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:19:18.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:19:25.044000+08:00","text":"何來的擋老人年金、育兒津貼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:19:25.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:19:29.786000+08:00","text":"執政黨鋪天蓋地的攻擊在野\n黨的國會議員，這是國家之恥。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:19:31.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:20:31.376000+08:00","text":"我們要再次強調，在國會什麼事情都可以討論、都可以協商，而且都有法律救濟的管道，執\n政者對於國會所通過的法律案，他們有意見，行政院可以依法提出覆議，有很多程序、救濟方\n式都可以進行，但是很奇怪的，這個國家竟然不是用正式的合法、合規、合憲的方式進行所有\n國家重大議題的討論，而是動員網軍側翼，還要呼喚青鳥，對在野黨威脅、恐嚇，我們在這裡\n再一次的嚴正表達我們完全不接受，我們是就事論事而且理性的討論。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:20:31.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:21:12.474000+08:00","text":"剛剛柯總召所提到禁伐\n補償的事情，我想這也是這次總預算退回程序委員會的原因之一而已，當然它所凸顯的就是，\n行政院、一個國家的團隊不依法施政，這個對國會的踐踏，對百分之百掌握全國民意的立法院\n所做出來的三讀通過的法律案，總統府也公告了，可以不執行，這個只是其中之一而已。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:21:12.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:21:26.344000+08:00","text":"更何況禁伐補償，民進黨立委、部落立委也爭相提出來，大家一路加碼。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:21:26.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:21:41.491000+08:00","text":"所以今天這個案子\n，我要特別強調，不只是在野黨部落立委有共識，執政黨的立委、部落立委也一樣有共識。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:21:41.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:21:51.078000+08:00","text":"而\n且法律案的提出是清清楚楚白紙黑字，就在我們的桌面上，民進黨立委也是提同樣的金額，同\n樣的禁伐補償。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:21:55.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:22:02.565000+08:00","text":"怎麼會大家一致性的決議，然後在立法院三讀通過以後，這樣的法律案可以不\n執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:22:03.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:22:05.605000+08:00","text":"那請問立法院通過什麼案子可以執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:22:08.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:22:17.107000+08:00","text":"行政院已經無限擴張到踐踏全民賦予監督權力的\n國會。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:22:17.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:22:45.223000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡要特別強調，憲法第七十條，立法委員、國會議員在審查預算的時候，確實\n不能作增加預算之作為，但我們現在根本就不是在審查總預算，這是上個會期通過的法律案哪\n！","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:22:45.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:23:00.365000+08:00","text":"根本不是現在在審議總預算的時間裡面提出來的，要求增加預算，那怎麼會是混淆視聽呢？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:23:01.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:23:02.948000+08:00","text":"把憲法的解釋都扭曲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:23:04.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:23:22.991000+08:00","text":"而且大法官會議釋字第 391 號解釋裡也講得非常清楚，當預算編列真的\n確實有不合時宜的時候，還可以裡面該怎麼去調整，就刪減的部分，讓他們另外再做調整，這\n都講得非常非常地清楚。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:23:24.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:23:40.291000+08:00","text":"更何況今天的爭議還不只一件，不只是朝野部落立委都一致支持的禁伐補償這 6 萬塊錢，還\n有關係到全國醫護水平、2,300 萬人健康的健保點值 0.95 元。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:23:40.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:24:12.765000+08:00","text":"這個在院會，各黨黨鞭大家都簽字\n了，而且我們還是貫徹賴清德總統在競選時所提出來的，他的政見跟公開的承諾，我們幫賴總\n統完成，結果衛福部或行政院竟然可以不予理會！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:24:12.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:24:50.221000+08:00","text":"再加上有多少年、15 年以上，有關稻穀，我們的農民這麼辛苦，竟然公糧收購部分到現在一\n協 5\n直都沒有調整，這個事情也是經過院會通過，立法院通過的事情，行政院抵制不作為，已經明\n顯違法，而且這不是關係到哪一個黨、哪一個人，這是關係到全民的健康、全國的農民，農民\n還有分顏色嗎？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:24:50.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:24:51.281000+08:00","text":"2,300 萬人的健康還有分顏色嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:24:51.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:24:52.942000+08:00","text":"這都已經是通過的事情，為什麼行政院可以踐\n踏？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:24:53.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:25:16.901000+08:00","text":"再加上錯誤的能源政策，卻要全國人民買單，1,000 億、1,000 億，每一年 1,000 億、2,000 億\n地去補能源政策錯誤的這個錢坑。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:25:20.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:25:30.450000+08:00","text":"除了補錢以外，電價一年還要漲兩次，給錢還不放人，還要\n向全民家戶收錢，一年還要漲兩次，要把國內的產業通通趕出去嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:25:35.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:25:53.097000+08:00","text":"我們實在無法想像，這樣\n的一個國家堅持錯誤的能源政策，昨天還打高空，要到什麼菲律賓、到哪裡去設電廠，光拉這\n個線要損耗百分之三、四十，到臺灣哪！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:25:53.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:25:54.398000+08:00","text":"異想天開！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:25:54.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:25:57.200000+08:00","text":"真的是天馬行空！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:25:58.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:02.044000+08:00","text":"這就是我們國家的能源\n政策嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:02.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:04.565000+08:00","text":"無限量地對人民需索無度嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:05.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:14.461000+08:00","text":"這個都是我們在討論過程中認為要退回總預算的主要原\n因，不是只有一個而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:15.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:26.068000+08:00","text":"我們希望國會是大家共同尊重的，朝野協商的結果我們希望能夠確定\n，行政院要執行。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:26.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:31.692000+08:00","text":"如果是法律案，都三讀通過的事情，行政院當然要來執行！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:31.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:32.936667+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:32.936667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:34.181333+08:00","text":"現場有兩位列席的原住民委員，各黨團可以通知自己的原住民委員，大\n家可以一起來列席，等一下他們可能有一些話要講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:34.181333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:35.426000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:35.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:26:35.706000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:26:35.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:27:17.558000+08:00","text":"我本來想說今天是要來聽解決方案，不是要把之前講過的論述再說一次，\n或者是在這邊再進行實質的爭執，只不過剛剛執政黨的立院黨鞭有針對法律的部分發表他個人\n的高見跟闡述，所以我可能還是要簡要地把重點的事情再清楚地講一次。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:27:18.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:27:42.184000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們現在所面臨的問題是中央政府總預算的審查，立法委員在審查預算的時候可以\n刪除、可以凍結，但我們不能針對行政院所提出來的預算案增加它的金額，我想這是一個最基\n本的遊戲規則。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:27:42.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:27:56.750000+08:00","text":"因此，針對今年中央政府所編出來的總預算案，我們認為浮濫的部分，當然，\n如果行政院願意利用機會重新調整，我覺得是好事。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:27:57.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:28:15.080000+08:00","text":"但，浮濫的部分我們接下來審查的時候，\n不管是刪除還是凍結，我們都會依法去做；我們秉持卓榮泰院長所宣布的，絕對不可以浪費公\n帑的基本原則來進行嚴格的審查。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:28:16.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:28:19.602000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們會希望行政院要重編？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:28:19.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:28:23.783000+08:00","text":"基本上還是回到一個法治國的原則，就是依法行政。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:28:24.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:28:49.586000+08:00","text":"立法\n院已經三讀通過的法律案，那個已經構成人民請求權的基礎，人民、原住民符合資格的，依照\n禁伐補償條例，他們提出請求的時候，在國家上面、公法上的給付義務，按照目前三讀通過、\n已經生效的法律，他本來可以請求的金額就是每公頃 6 萬元。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:28:51.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:29:18.490000+08:00","text":"但問題是，在今年所送出來的總\n預算當中，它沒有針對這個國家要履行它的法定義務所必須要有的支出來編列預算，我們在後\n來審查的時候，按照憲法的規定又沒有辦法增加，這是為什麼我們希望行政院就沒有依法編列\n預算的部分能夠重新回去編列、調整最主要的理由。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:29:19.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:29:29.418000+08:00","text":"我覺得這第一個是就基本的大架構的立場\n、原則跟理由，先做一個簡單的說明。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:29:30.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:29:59.028000+08:00","text":"目前會遇到這個問題，跟我們上個會期審議有關係的其實有三個案子，我先從最簡單的開始\n講，就有關於健保點值 0.95 元的部分，那個是三黨黨團參與的委員、黨團的幹部大家全部都簽\n字了，當初我記得花了很多的時間，大家都同意那樣子的內容。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:29:59.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:14.001000+08:00","text":"我們黨團是由陳昭姿委員參與\n協 6\n實質的協商，因為他對這個議題是最熟悉的，後來陳委員回來跟我們講協商的結果，我們黨團\n的幹部都同意，也都簽了字。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:14.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:21.264000+08:00","text":"所以第一個，我覺得比較沒有爭議的是這三個黨團的黨鞭統統都\n簽了字的事情。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:22.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:24.925000+08:00","text":"第二個是有關公糧收購價格的部分。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:25.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:41.281000+08:00","text":"公糧收購價格的部分當初台灣民眾黨黨團提案，中國國\n民黨黨團也有提案，在院會裡面的時候，針對這個提案的主決議根本沒有人提出異議啊！那個","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:43.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:46.424000+08:00","text":"請問在場的委員有無異議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:46.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:47.345000+08:00","text":"根本沒有人異議啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:48.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:30:52.848000+08:00","text":"甚至連表決都沒有\n，就無異議通過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:30:53.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:31:32.091000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，可能對卓榮泰而言，他比較有意見的是禁伐補償條例，他說違憲，老實說我聽\n不懂，審預算的時候，不可以為增加支出的提議，跟在法律案的時候，會造成行政部門或者在\n編預算的需求，這在概念上是兩回事，而當初的禁伐補償條例一開始的時候，也是由立法委員\n來提議的，最後也三讀通過了。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:31:35.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:31:47.644000+08:00","text":"過去會增加支出的立法委員提案，法律通過，因此而造成整個\n預算會增加支出的法律案，比比皆是，我就不要再一一列舉了。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:31:49.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:32:14.880000+08:00","text":"當然，最近執政黨又說違反預\n算法第九十一條，我們來看一下預算法第九十一條是怎麼規定的，預算法第九十一條規定立法\n委員所提的法律案，第一個，大幅增加歲出，它的前提要件是要大幅增加歲出；第二個，它要\n徵詢行政院的意見。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:32:14.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:32:30.951000+08:00","text":"請大家注意，在法條的用語上，它是要「徵詢」行政院的意見，它不是要\n「得到」行政院的同意，在法律的文字上面，它為什麼是用徵詢，而不是取得行政院的同意？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:32:31.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:32:37.932000+08:00","text":"我相信這個立法意旨非常清楚，這個法律到底要怎麼解釋？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:32:38.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:32:50.735000+08:00","text":"我們再看具體的、實際上面的內容\n，具體實際上面的內容，上個會期在審查這個法律案的時候，到底有沒有去徵詢行政院的意見\n？有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:32:51.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:19.053000+08:00","text":"真的有徵詢行政院的意見，那個時候提案的委員，我記得是伍麗華委員，在針對禁伐\n補償條例進行總質詢的時候，他問了上一屆也就是在法案提出時的行政院院長陳建仁，陳建仁\n說他支持，旁邊的主計長還提醒如果要增加的話，要修正法律。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:21.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:23.990000+08:00","text":"那個時候在詢答的過程當中，\n很清楚啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:25.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:34.753000+08:00","text":"就趕快推動法律的修正，主計長還當場表示只要法律修正通過了以後，他們就會依\n法編列預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:35.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:40.115000+08:00","text":"這個在立法院公報裡面，整個立法歷程清清楚楚的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:40.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:51.192000+08:00","text":"所以分兩個層次，第一個，台灣民眾黨黨團的立場，我們根本不認為這個有違憲的問題，有\n沒有違反憲法？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:52.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:33:59.358000+08:00","text":"那個是基本上面的憲政原則，它不會因為法律規定的內容而產生任何的影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:33:59.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:34:05.162000+08:00","text":"你怎麼會說在討論法律有沒有違憲的時候，去看其他法律是怎麼規定？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:34:06.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:34:17.030000+08:00","text":"退一萬步講，今天即使\n要看預算法的規定，預算法的規定也寫得很清楚，它最多只是要徵詢行政院的意見，上面有說\n要行政院同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:34:18.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:34:37.354000+08:00","text":"上面也沒有說要行政院同意，如果要行政院同意的話，可能我們在這邊所講\n的憲政主義、權力分立、行政跟立法兩者之間的界限，恐怕才是真正遭到大幅的踐踏跟破壞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:34:37.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:34:45.899000+08:00","text":"所以台灣民眾黨團的立場非常的簡單，就是請行政院依法行政、依法編列預算。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:34:46.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:35:09.480000+08:00","text":"至於行政院，\n如果卓榮泰他個人認為這個法律是所謂的違憲，行政院在這個情況之下，他們要去聲請釋憲或\n者是什麼、什麼，這個按照法定的程序，我們都尊重，但我要提醒的事情是什麼？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:35:09.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:35:15.267000+08:00","text":"我要提醒的\n事情是，行政院說它 1 公頃願意給 4 萬塊，請問給付這 4 萬塊的法律基礎是什麼？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:35:15.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:35:16.208000+08:00","text":"如果這個法\n律違憲，你認為違憲，那就給付 3 萬塊嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:35:26.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:35:47.840000+08:00","text":"在被憲法法庭宣告違憲以前，這個是三讀有效通過\n的法律，行政院也沒提覆議，依法的規定，人民在公法上的請求權就是 6 萬塊，現在突然說每\n協 7\n公頃它願意給 4 萬塊，請問每公頃給付 4 萬塊的法律基礎是什麼？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:35:47.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:35:48.880000+08:00","text":"毫無依據啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"時候主持會議的主席有問","start":"2024-10-17T10:35:51.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:36:20.778000+08:00","text":"因此，我們也\n希望總預算能夠進行實質審查，這個我們都沒意見，但前提是行政院在編列預算的時候還是要\n依法編列，這樣立法機關針對你所編列的預算是不是有浮濫、是不是有做不好，該凍結，我們\n才有辦法順利地再往下進行審查，這個是台灣民眾黨黨團基本上的態度跟立場。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:36:22.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:36:23.099000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:36:23.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:36:36.543000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，跟大家報告一下，等一下準備第二輪發言之前，我請原住\n民列席的委員簡短扼要地講一下你們的立場，也請主計長準備，你講完話之後，各黨團第二輪\n發言，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:36:36.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:36:43.925000+08:00","text":"這樣的話會比較完整一點，主計長請準備，有請今天列席的兩位，也歡迎其他\n各黨團自己的原住民立委，大家都很關切。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:36:45.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:36:45.366000+08:00","text":"高金委員請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:36:46.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:37:04.739000+08:00","text":"首先謝謝韓院長在我們政黨協商的時候可以排除三黨的總召們，也讓原住民的立法\n委員列席，因此黃國昌委員剛剛所提的，我就不再說了，但是我有幾個必須要說明的。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:37:05.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:37:18.729000+08:00","text":"第一件事情就是，目前我們原住民領取禁伐補償的公頃數是 7萬 2,587公頃，領的人數是 5萬\n1,957 人，這是按照 112 年度領的數據，並沒有剛剛柯總召說的違法跟亂編，反而是非常地嚴格\n，我在這邊要先說明一下。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:37:37.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:37:55.426000+08:00","text":"第二個就是，誠如黃國昌總召說的，如果卓院長說 4 萬是違憲的話，或者按照柯總召說的，\n我們是不是先編 4 萬，然後再隨著物價指數調升？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:37:55.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:38:19.436000+08:00","text":"的確，隨著物價指數調升在法律案裡面是有\n通過的部分，大家知道所謂的物價有升也有降，它不會永遠停留在 6 萬塊，更何況剛剛所提到\n的，如果它是違憲的話，為什麼卓院長說 4 萬就合憲，而 6 萬就是違憲呢？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:38:19.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:38:24.704000+08:00","text":"這是我們族人一直\n搞不太清楚的，謝謝剛剛黃國昌總召有提示大家。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:38:25.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:38:45.288000+08:00","text":"再來就是，所謂的財源，我給大家看一下，財源在 104 年這個禁伐補償通過 1 公頃 3 萬的時\n候，當時田秋堇、簡東明、高金素梅還有幾個人，以及王金平院長我們就簽字了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:38:45.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:38:50.874000+08:00","text":"這上面簡單\n講，附帶決議是說，如果要提高禁伐補償金額的話，應該是由開徵碳稅來支應。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:38:55.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:39:23.236000+08:00","text":"大家也理解，\n氣候變遷因應法在立法院已經通過了，然後我們也有溫室氣體管理基金，也有錢了，所以政府\n一直在說沒有財源，我們也不知道是不是沒有財源，104 年已經告訴你，如果要增加預算的話，\n可以從這個管理基金來出，我想這個環境部、財政部應該都非常清楚地知道。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:39:24.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:39:34.040000+08:00","text":"再來我要談的是，我希望待會秘書長可以跟我們說明一下，什麼是法律案、什麼是預算案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:39:34.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:39:50.513000+08:00","text":"就我在立法院 23 年的理解，禁伐補償修正條例是屬於法律案，法律案我也不再多加贅述有多少\n個在立法院通過了，然後也要求行政院要編列預算，比我們現在禁伐補償要編列的預算金額還\n高得多。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:39:59.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:40:16.145000+08:00","text":"接著我要再請問一下，民進黨一直在說財政紀律法，的確財政紀律法在 108 年是有修正的，\n但是不要忘記了，我這邊也有一些相關的文件，109 年 6 月的時候，三倍券也通過了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:40:16.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:40:44.104000+08:00","text":"告訴大家\n金額是多少，是 515億，110年 9月 5日五倍券又通過了，是 1,100億，如果這是違憲的話，113\n年 10 月陳亭妃又提案了，他說老農金貼要從 8,000 到 1 萬，所以我們不知道現在卓院長的邏輯\n是什麼？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:40:44.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:40:55.176000+08:00","text":"如果原住民提高禁伐補償到 1 公頃 6 萬是違憲的話，為什麼他們自己的立法委員伍麗\n華委員提 6 萬？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:40:55.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:41:05.127000+08:00","text":"然後我如果沒有記錯的話，吳思瑤委員也幫他連署了，所以如果是違憲，我再\n協 8\n講一次，4萬就不違憲嗎？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:41:05.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:41:35.731000+08:00","text":"然後我們看一下明年（114 年度）的預算，從原民會的公務預算裡面看到，它編列的禁伐補償\n就是 28.1 億，如果按照我剛剛所講的那個金額，我們目前有 7 萬公頃，大家用數學算一下，四\n七等於二十八，所以一開始行政院就篤定只要給 4 萬塊。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:41:35.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:41:52.520000+08:00","text":"如果這是行政院長，他一意孤行，他\n於心不忍，他不願意提所謂的覆議案，那麼他又是依照什麼法律可以編 4 萬元？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T10:41:52.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:42:07.729000+08:00","text":"而且他也在 114\n年度原民會的公務預算裡面編了 28.1 億給禁伐補償，所以這個部分大家要思考一下，一開始我\n們的卓院長就是欺負原住民，只願意給 4萬，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:42:10.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:42:11.086000+08:00","text":"謝謝高金委員發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:42:11.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:42:12.827000+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭天財委員發言。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:42:12.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:42:18.448000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：院長、各黨團。","quality":0.278},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:42:18.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:43:12.473000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝院長，也謝謝我們柯總召一開始提到禁伐補償\n，因為我是在臺灣省政府服務 20 年，禁伐補償是因為法律禁止原住民造的林不能砍伐，所以依\n照森林法要補償，依照原住民族基本法要補償，所以依照森林法在民國 82 年就開始有禁伐補償\n，當時的金額就是 2萬塊，從 82年到現在，31年了，如果我們按照物價指數、各方面，絕對不\n是 6萬塊了。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:43:15.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:43:53.021000+08:00","text":"105 年公布施行禁伐補償條例，開始實施，剛才柯總召有提到 3 萬塊，沒有錯，鄭文燦擔任桃\n園市市長時（105 年），他認為太少，他用桃園市政府的錢加碼到 4 萬塊，他知道從 82 年到那\n時才增加到 3 萬塊，他認為太少，所以他就加碼了。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:43:56.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:44:45.256000+08:00","text":"現在既然法律通過了，是要 6 萬塊，而且\n這個提案有跨黨派的立法委員 72 位提案，其中民進黨的立委有 32 人連署，包括吳思瑤幹事長\n，本席跟高金素梅只有提 5 萬塊，伍麗華立委、陳瑩立委都是 6 萬塊，當然盧縣一立委是 6 萬\n塊，他有他的依據，為什麼是 6 萬塊？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:44:45.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:44:58.143000+08:00","text":"他是從英國學者的一個評估認為最起碼要 6 萬塊，是這\n樣的一個法律提案的過程。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:44:59.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:45:19.918000+08:00","text":"我就不再贅述剛才是不是有違憲、是不是有違預算法、是不是有違財政紀律法，剛才民眾黨\n團黃國昌都已經講得非常清楚了，我不再重複。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:45:19.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:46:20.538000+08:00","text":"我唯一特別要拜託行政院的是，禁伐補償一直\n到 113年度的總預算才回到正軌，完全由公務預算來編列，112年度以前，從 106到 112年度都\n違法挪用了原住民族綜合發展基金，所以我特別要請主計長去補編，補編的預算不多，只有 15\n億，為了 15 億，立法院要開這麼長的朝野協商，然後立法院、行政院在總質詢花了多少的時間\n，才 15億，沒有多少啊！","quality":0.954},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-17T10:46:24.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:46:27.904000+08:00","text":"這一部分就編列公務預算，以上。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:46:29.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:46:29.445000+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭天財委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:46:30.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:46:34.430000+08:00","text":"主計長，現在麻煩您發言一下，其他三個黨團請準備二輪發言。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-17T10:46:37.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:46:45.451000+08:00","text":"院長、副院長和各位黨團委員，大家好，主計總處針對 114年度原住民禁伐補償經\n費編列來提出說明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-17T10:46:45.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:47:15.392000+08:00","text":"原住民禁伐補償標準是由每公頃 3 萬元調增到 6 萬元，呈倍數的增加，修\n法後所需要的經費達到 48 億元，占原住民原來的預算高達 40%以上，已經嚴重排擠到原民會的\n業務。","quality":0.313},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-17T10:47:15.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:47:24.437000+08:00","text":"修法後倍增的部分跟憲法第七十條及相關的財政紀律法規定不符，因為這裡面說需要指\n明資金的來源。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-17T10:47:25.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:48:03.174000+08:00","text":"針對原民會 114年度預算的部分，我們總預算是成長百分之九點多，但是原民會\n預算我們增加了 12%，所以增加的部分，我們希望在這個經費裡面，能按照它施政的優先順序\n，本於零基預算的精神去做排序和編列執行，如果這個案子經過執行後仍有經費不足的部分，\n協 9\n本總處會依據行政院的政策來檢討、協助，以上補充。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:48:11.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:48:12.756000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:48:14.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:48:46.575000+08:00","text":"今天在討論總預算，第一題當然就是原住民禁伐補償，事實上剛剛主計長\n也有揭露幾個重要的原則，立法委員在立法的時候，本來就要受到預算法跟財政紀律法的限制\n，基本上這是屬於一個比較上位的概念，就是法律案在制定條文的時候，我們就要去斟酌這個\n法律案是否會大幅增加政府的歲出或者是減少歲入，這個是第一個要去注意的。","quality":0.329},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:48:46.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T10:49:18.016000+08:00","text":"如果有大幅增\n加歲出或減少歲入的時候，預算法的規定是要徵詢行政院的意見，指明彌補資金之來源，所以\n並不是像剛剛黃總召所說的，只有要件叫做「應先徵詢行政院之意見」，因為它還有後面的「\n，指明彌補資金之來源」這個文字。","quality":0.097},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:49:18.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:49:25.080000+08:00","text":"所以從預算法裡面就可以知道，除了要徵詢行政院的意見\n外，你至少也要跟行政院討論出彌補資金的來源，這是一個重點。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:49:25.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:49:49.553000+08:00","text":"財政紀律法在 2019 年 4 月 10 日公布，基本上它重要的條文是在第五條以及第七條，其中第\n五條跟預算法第九十一條精神一樣，也就是說，立法委員所提法律案如果增加政府歲出的時候\n，應該也要指明彌補資金之來源。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:49:50.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:49:56.116000+08:00","text":"法律用語都是用「應」，並不是很單純地用「得」，「應」\n就是你必須要。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:49:56.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:50:13.297000+08:00","text":"然後第七條還規定，各級機關及立法機關制定法律的時候，不得增加固定經費\n額度或比率保障，也不得用基金的方式來限縮整個政府的施政。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:50:14.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:50:37.687000+08:00","text":"這個基本上都是基於所謂權力\n分立原則，也就是行政權去編列預算，立法權來審預算，整個精神還是在於憲法第七十條，第\n七十條就是立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:50:37.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:51:11.362000+08:00","text":"所以可以看出在預算案的\n時候，立法委員是不得為增加之提議，所以也衍生到了釋字第 264 號跟 391 號，釋字第 264 號\n講到，立法委員不得用決議的方式來提高預算，當年度有立法委員決議要增加公務人員的年終\n獎金，後來這樣的決議被認為違反憲法第七十條，所以被宣告違憲。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:51:13.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:51:19.705000+08:00","text":"提出釋字第 391 號聲請時\n，認為在沒有增加總預算的情況之下，可以在預算科目裡面為調整。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:51:20.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:51:36.698000+08:00","text":"但後來認為這樣的調整，\n仍然是對於行政權在行政的時候有所牽制，這樣對行政權牽制的作為，也被認為是違憲的，所\n以可以看出關於預算案有這樣的精神。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:51:37.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:10.047000+08:00","text":"目前大法官解釋沒有講到法律案的情況，雖然現在大法\n官解釋還沒有講到這一塊，但是我們從剛剛提到的預算法、財政紀律法同樣都可以推演出，是\n一樣的精神，立法委員可以用法案來要求行政機關應該要做怎樣的行政作為，但是這樣的行政\n作為一旦增加政府支出的時候，就必須要跟行政機關溝通，至少也要溝通出財源在哪裡。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:10.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:24.901000+08:00","text":"如果\n這個財源還沒有找出來的話，卻用法案強行通過，既違反預算法，也違反財政紀律法，而且很\n明顯跟憲法所揭櫫的權力分立原則相悖，也是不合憲的。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:26.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:36.008000+08:00","text":"民進黨的態度是這樣，所以希望在這\n樣的精神之下，我們能不能再用其他的方式，大家來溝通？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:38.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:39.351000+08:00","text":"以上，我先這樣發言，等一下再聽\n大家的意見。謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:42.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:42.974000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝民進黨團蔡易餘幹事長發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:43.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:43.955000+08:00","text":"二輪請國民黨黨團發言，台灣民眾黨請準備。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:43.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:52:44.015000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:52:53.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:53:06.793000+08:00","text":"對於總預算的議題，剛才不管是傅崐萁總召、黃國昌總召或者高金、鄭天\n財委員都一再地重申，要求行政院就是要依法行政。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:53:07.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:53:19.944000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要特別呼籲民進黨的委員，每一\n位立法委員都必須尊重自己的職權，我們必須要監督行政院依法行政。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:53:21.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:53:37.841000+08:00","text":"剛才國昌總召講得非常\n協 10\n清楚，有關原民保留地禁伐補償條例修正案，這個案子是在 6 月 4 號三讀通過，總統府也在 6\n月 24 號公告，這是一部有效力的法律。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:53:40.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:53:54.536000+08:00","text":"另外，行政院沒有依照中華民國憲法增修條文第三條在\n10 日內移請立法院覆議，也沒有提出憲法訴訟，由憲法法庭判定是否違憲。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:53:56.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:54:12.397000+08:00","text":"不管是柯總召或者\n剛才蔡易餘委員都一直說，這是一部違憲的修法，我們就不清楚，這明明是一部有效施行的法\n律，也沒有經過凍結，行政院有什麼立場不依法編列這個預算。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:54:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:54:22.848000+08:00","text":"我們認為實際上是行政院非常\n不尊重立法院三讀通過的法律。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:54:25.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:54:36.522000+08:00","text":"在現階段這部法律是有效施行的情況之下，我們朝野應該共同\n一致地來監督行政院，而不是幫行政院來護航。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:54:37.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:54:49.231000+08:00","text":"行政院已經違法了，你們竟還可以口口聲聲說\n，行政院可以不用依法編列這個預算，這個才是違反權力分立原則。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:54:49.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:04.221000+08:00","text":"另外，我要再提到，剛才不管是鄭天財委員或高金委員都一再強調，原民的禁伐補償預算這\n次如果編列，只需要多少錢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:04.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:05.322000+08:00","text":"大概就是 14 到 17 億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:08.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:14.535000+08:00","text":"剛才易餘一直說，這個要經過行政院盤點\n有沒有這個預算，有沒有這個預算？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:14.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:31.525000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下今年編的預算，行政院在 114年度的預算編列\n將近 3 兆 2,000 億，其中有 15 億是媒體政策的宣導費，比去年增加多少？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:32.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:32.526000+08:00","text":"增加 65%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:36.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:47.212000+08:00","text":"對於我們\n立法通過的禁伐補償金，你說沒有預算可以去編列相關公務預算，這個是說不過去啦！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:48.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:55:56.215000+08:00","text":"我想這\n愧對原住民權益的照顧，所以我們在這邊，我們就重申請行政院依法行政，謝謝。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:55:58.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:56:01.117000+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨團林思銘書記長的發言。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:56:01.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:56:05.759000+08:00","text":"接下來，台灣民眾黨請二輪發言，請吳春城委員發言。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:56:12.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:57:16.352000+08:00","text":"這整個的討論，聽到現在，我完全無法理解，行政院就依法行政，完全沒有問題，這\n是法律已經三讀通過的；第二個，按照通例，過去同樣地這一些類似的法律多如牛毛；第三個\n，如果是按照財政負擔，這個也是一筆小錢，相對整個 3 兆的中央總預算來講；按照學理，大\n家各方面的討論也完全沒有問題；第五個，按照從政府和諧的運作，加上現在民生疾苦、百廢\n待興，所有事情都急著要推動。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:57:18.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:57:26.932000+08:00","text":"從各個觀點當中，我覺得行政院都站不住腳，但是百思不解，\n為什麼要這麼硬？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:57:28.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:57:31.934000+08:00","text":"為什麼要這麼堅持卡在一個原住民的補償條例上面？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:57:34.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:57:39.677000+08:00","text":"我在想到底這個意義是\n什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:57:39.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:57:54.002000+08:00","text":"我想他要聲張的是行政權，剛才提到行政權不可被牽制、要聲張，執政黨要牽制這一個\n，然後立法權不可監督，是不是要這樣子呢？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:57:55.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:06.348000+08:00","text":"我也看到我們的黨團、我們的行政院行政部門其\n實都在辯論，我覺得辯論得很心虛、很辛苦，真的，我覺得大家都很辛苦，你們都是專家啦！","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:07.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:15.813000+08:00","text":"不管從案例、從剛才所提到任何事情，大家都心知肚明非常清楚，大家不曉得在這邊演什麼戲\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:16.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:19.494000+08:00","text":"所以，我覺得無非是不是要聲張呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:21.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:24.757000+08:00","text":"執政獨裁、藐視國會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:24.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:30.179000+08:00","text":"這樣子永無寧日，非國家之福，\n所以特別在這裡聲明。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:32.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:35.801000+08:00","text":"謝謝壯世代的吳春城委員，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:35.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:37.021000+08:00","text":"主計長，請問有沒有要補充的？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:37.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:38.382000+08:00","text":"因為我要唸一下結論。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:38.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:38.802000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤委員，你請發言。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T10:58:45.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:58:58.823000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我想院長應當有相當的智慧，因為您說你已經有預擬結論，但是我還是把握時\n間發言一下，希望大家都是朝解決問題的方向來走。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T10:59:00.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:59:21.034000+08:00","text":"過去我想每一個會期，尤其在預算會期要\n進入總預算、付委審查，當然都會有當下的政治環境跟情勢，可能有某個個案、某個爭議的議\n題，然後大家朝野之間有一些攻防，所以稍微都沒有在第一次會就直接讓總預算來付委審查。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T10:59:21.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T10:59:57.039000+08:00","text":"但是我找出過去這數年來，事實上是數十年來在預算會期審議總預算交付審查的時程，大概都\n協 11\n是第 2 次會或第 3 次會就交付審查，前提是我剛剛講，每一個會期都有那個時候的政治氛圍，\n可能有特殊的政治 issue，朝野之間真的要攻防表達立場，但是過去的朝野大家的共同智慧跟共\n同共識，就是總預算是要審的，總預算延宕不得。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T10:59:57.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:01:00.727000+08:00","text":"所以我手上的資料非常完整，從民國 90 年到 113 年度，在預算會期審查預算付委的期程都是\n落在該次，就是我們的院會第 2 次或第 3 次會就審查了，我們現在這個會期到現在開議已經將\n近一個月了，即將要進入第 5 次的院會了，如果說第 5 次的院會還沒有辦法讓總預算來交付審\n查，我想這個其實是有違過去大家長年來，縱使有不同的政治議題攻防之下，過去的立法院，\n不管誰大誰小，誰是朝、誰是野，都有這樣的基本共識，因為審查預算就是立法委員的職權，\n所以我前提講得很清楚，我們都理解，在政治攻防下，各政黨有彼此的看法，哪個結總是要解\n的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:01:01.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:01:09.511000+08:00","text":"今天謝謝韓院長主持朝野協商，剛剛我就順著在我前面發言的吳春城幹事長，他也是吳幹事\n長，我們都是吳幹事長。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:01:09.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:01:20.756000+08:00","text":"您剛剛說民生疾苦，百廢待舉，您剛剛說的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:01:21.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:01:43.547000+08:00","text":"如果說我們都是民意一\n票一票選出來的，如果說都肯認總預算可以解決民生疾苦、百廢待舉的狀況，當然就趕快讓它\n審查，因為沒有審查就不會有通過；不會有通過，就會延宕一些政務的推行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:01:44.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:01:49.971000+08:00","text":"明年度的新興計\n畫，如果沒有審預算，那麼完全沒有辦法支用的新興計畫就有 2,050 億。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:01:53.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:07.626000+08:00","text":"我上一場會議在司法及\n法制委員會質詢法務部，上會期通過的打詐四法，在野黨大家都要打詐四法，說一定要通過，\n畢竟詐騙是現在社會大家最厭惡的，所以政府一定要解決。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:08.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:20.778000+08:00","text":"我剛剛問了法務部長，總預算如果\n沒有審，那麼手上受影響的新興打詐業務高達 11.26 億，而這些都是人民關切的議題。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:20.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:30.846000+08:00","text":"所以我先\n講我的開宗明義：縱使任何的政治攻防在每一個會期的開始都會有，但總預算就是要交付審查\n。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:31.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:41.755000+08:00","text":"過去的期程是第 2 次會或第 3 次會，今天是協商的最終機會，明天如果再沒有辦法交付審查\n，我們會落到第 5 次會。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:43.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:50.598000+08:00","text":"總預算延後交付審查期程，立法委員們付出的代價是什麼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:50.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:02:58.840000+08:00","text":"除了民意\n的苛責之外，最重要、最現實的就是壓縮我們監督預算審查的期程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:02:59.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:03:25.779000+08:00","text":"因為法定預算審畢的期程\n是年底 12 月 31 日，如果晚一次會、晚兩次會，就是少一個禮拜可以好好藉由審查、針對預算\n的編纂、執行計畫的完備與否，在那個場域上去行使委員的監督權力，所以我要強調這件事。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:03:28.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:03:31.023000+08:00","text":"我第一次說話，我再講一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:03:31.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:03:39.946000+08:00","text":"還有一個事情，很多細節我都不再贅述，因為剛剛很多前輩大家都指正過、發表過意見。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:03:39.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:03:52.230000+08:00","text":"但\n我要講一件事情，當我們立法委員，不管是行政或立法，我們都是服務人民的公僕，不分行政\n、立法，大家都要依法行政。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:03:53.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:04:10.055000+08:00","text":"依法行政，在在野黨口中主張行政院要依法行政；同樣的，立法\n部門在修法或立新法也要依法來修法，或依法來立法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:04:11.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:04:17.472000+08:00","text":"國家體制是一套的，不管誰執政都有一\n套要遵循的體制！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:04:18.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:04:31.596000+08:00","text":"剛剛已經講了憲法精神、預算法精神，財政紀律法 2019 年更嚴格限縮，因為\n我們的法律越來越進步，越來越嚴謹。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:04:31.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:04:52.934000+08:00","text":"我印象非常深刻，2019 年修正財政紀律法的時候，當時\n提案委員有民進黨的王榮璋委員，他是我們的財政專家；有國民黨的曾銘宗委員，也是財政專\n家，還有我們非常資深的賴士葆委員，這是財政專家吧？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:04:53.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:04:59.699000+08:00","text":"在三位委員的合推之下，完成了財政\n紀律法的立法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:00.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:20.741000+08:00","text":"所以財政紀律法在 2019 年立法之後，三位各黨、跨黨派的、資深、專業的財政\n委員都認為，要對國家財政控管進行一套更進步的檢視，所以通過財政紀律法的立法，但這其\n協 12\n實限縮了立法委員修法的職權。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:20.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:36.599000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，因為財政紀律法第五條跟第七條都限縮了立委未來爾\n後在修任何一部法律時，不能有明定的數額，乃至於比例都不行。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:37.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:40.941000+08:00","text":"所以這是一個更進步的國會\n，是朝野的共識！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:41.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:43.322000+08:00","text":"就像我剛剛說的，曾銘宗委員夠專業了吧？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:44.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:46.223000+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員在財政的領域夠專業\n了吧？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:47.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:05:57.873000+08:00","text":"他們共同認為，不論誰執政，國家的財政都要好好的控管，所以 2019 年的財政紀律法很\n清楚地告訴了我們。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:05:57.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:06:25.755000+08:00","text":"很遺憾，上個會期的原住民禁伐補償條例，就是違逆了財政紀律法最新的\n一個我們現在會沿用的預算基本法規，所以依法行政，不只是要求行政部門，我們立法委員如\n果立了適法性有問題的法律，又要行政部門去適用，那這樣就沒完沒了，所以回到財政紀律法\n，為什麼要修？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:06:26.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:06:27.396000+08:00","text":"為了控管國家財政。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:06:30.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:06:55.612000+08:00","text":"剛剛柯總召已經說了，民進黨黨團今天是帶著願意讓步，\n大家善意、誠意的協調，上個會期修原住民禁伐補償條例的時候，也就是韓院長主持的那個協\n商會場，其實大家心知肚明，從 3 萬到 6 萬是百分之百的漲幅，這是前所未有的。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:06:55.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:07:17.817000+08:00","text":"今天在場的\n多數委員當天也都在場，所以在跟行政部門協調一個合宜數字的時候，才有一個 4 萬塊的額度\n，行政部門也認為每公頃 4萬塊的合理性是可以接受的。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:07:19.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:08:10.424000+08:00","text":"再回到預算法第九十一條，任何一個修法要增加歲出或減少歲入，我不曉得剛剛在野黨委員\n、黃國昌委員說的，一定要大幅增加才算，如果您認為 28 億不是大幅，那麼未來每一個法律都\n會有其母數跟基數，這是不一樣的，但重點在於法律的意涵不要去僭越了、逾越了行政部門的\n預算權限，所以才有一個應徵詢行政院之意見，在大家共識下找出一個財政負擔上 OK的、不會\n造成其他預算項目排擠的，當初大家認為 4 萬是合理的，而原始沒有修法之前是 3 萬，所以這\n是行政部門願意擴大照顧的部分。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:08:10.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:08:30.515000+08:00","text":"就像剛剛柯總召提的，今年度行政部門會想方設法在 4 萬這\n個幅度，而且也依循每兩年 CPI 指數來調整，我認為這是一個非常合宜，也是當初大家都認為\n的一個合理漲幅。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:08:31.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:09:11.281000+08:00","text":"真的要懇求大家，希望在原住民禁伐補償這件事情上，獲得一個大家各退一\n步的解方，更重要的是，大家接不接受這個解方，都不要再繼續影響到總預算的付委審查，明\n天是第 5 次會了，壓縮我們的審查期間是不利於國會監督，這真的是要非常懇切，因為很多很\n多的……我不想再贅述了，但誠如剛剛講的，苦民所苦，如果百廢待舉、民生凋零，那國家需\n要預算照顧人民，謝謝。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:09:13.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:09:13.563000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:09:13.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:09:14.144000+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團三輪發言，請。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:09:14.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:09:14.344000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:09:21.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:09:45.640000+08:00","text":"剛才已經經過了兩輪發言，我們也聽到了民進黨幹事長的發言，其實我們\n一再強調的就是所謂的依法行政，剛才吳思瑤幹事長一直說依法行政，但是現在的問題是，當\n由立法院通過，而且經過總統公告的法律，政府不去施行的話，我必須說，這也是陷賴總統於\n不義。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:09:51.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:10:01.941000+08:00","text":"這不是第一次、史上第一遭、破天荒的，由總統府公告實施的法律，最後告訴民眾誤會\n一場！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:10:03.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:10:07.715000+08:00","text":"所以我們不要陷賴總統於不義，我覺得這非常重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:10:08.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:10:26.122000+08:00","text":"我們一直講依法行政、依法行政，\n這個法經過通過、經過公告實施，行政院也沒有提出覆議，然後在編列預算的時候，卻可以動\n手腳，我必須講，如果是這樣的話，我們政府自己不是變成最大的詐騙集團了嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:10:26.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:10:59.947000+08:00","text":"如果行政院\n要當詐騙集團，立法院、在野黨沒有辦法當幫兇，所以在這邊我們還是要求要依法行政，行政\n院沒有提出覆議，也沒有釋憲，現在卻口口聲聲說違反憲法、違反憲法，都公告實施了，怎麼\n協 13\n可以這樣子「翻桌」、翻臉？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:01.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:07.540000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才就特別講打詐很重要，打詐非常重要啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:08.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:13.503000+08:00","text":"但是政府自己不能夠變成詐騙集團，這\n點非常重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:14.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:30.434000+08:00","text":"而且如果按照剛才吳思瑤幹事長說的，當時從 3 萬變成 6 萬他覺得非常驚訝，可\n是吳思瑤幹事長自己可能都忘了，當民進黨的立委提案修正的時候，你自己也有連署，是不是\n？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:31.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:36.841000+08:00","text":"我覺得你今天不能說民進黨的委員提出來，這個你都可以連署，然後等到在立法院通過了，\n我們也從善如流啊，然後現在我們就變成違法亂紀了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:36.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:37.261000+08:00","text":"我們就沒有財政紀律了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:37.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:11:37.942000+08:00","text":"不曉得吳\n思瑤幹事長你的財政紀律、你的標準是不是也是浮動的？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:11:58.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:12:12.219000+08:00","text":"你們一直口口聲聲說我們不要拖延審\n查、不要拖延審查，我要告訴大家的是，在野黨一點都不想拖延審查，我直接說我們很想進入\n審查、砍預算，對不對？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:12:12.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:12:14.199000+08:00","text":"在野黨就是要來監督預算是不是？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:12:14.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:12:37.420000+08:00","text":"我們一點都不想拖延，但是我們有\n一些原則，這個原則就是法定預算你必須要編列，而現在我看到主計長講這些話，我不想浪費\n時間啦，你們今年的歲入比去年增加了四千多億，增加四千億以上，你告訴我沒有財源，這個\n增加多少？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:12:39.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:12:39.522000+08:00","text":"你說從 3 萬變 4 萬，4 萬再變 6 萬，增加多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:12:39.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:12:42.503000+08:00","text":"我算一算是 14 億，你歲入增加四千\n多億，然後你應該法定預算增加 14億，結果你現在告訴我沒有這些財源。","quality":0.659},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:12:56.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:13:08.390000+08:00","text":"我告訴大家，總統府三大委員會的成立是在原民禁伐補償條例之後，在今年的預算裡面分散\n在各部會超過 70 億啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:13:11.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:13:31.007000+08:00","text":"我當然尊重總統他成立委員會，他有他施政的需求，我們尊重，只要他\n花得合理，我們也可以尊重，可是問題在於你這個法定預算，怎麼這三大委員會……一個不是\n法定機構的相關預算可以凌駕在法律之上？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:13:31.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:13:37.191000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，說實在我們所有的立法委員大家\n打包回去睡覺啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:13:37.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:13:40.832000+08:00","text":"不需要有立法委員，也不需要立法院。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:13:41.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:13:54.379000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是我們一點都不想拖延\n審查，但是如果今天你不依法，法定預算不編列的話，那我覺得現在拖延的是民進黨政府、是\n行政院啊！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:13:55.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:14:23.472000+08:00","text":"行政院現在用這種方式來拖延審查，我覺得我們很多的原則要跟大家講得非常清楚\n，不要再用抹黑的方式、造謠的方式，甚至在之前很多梗圖說我們刪預算、刪社福、刪育兒津\n貼等等，這些都已經被事實查核中心打臉了、都是假訊息。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:14:24.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:14:37.319000+08:00","text":"我們相信真理越辯越明，所以今天\n也拜託我們行政院不要拖延預算的審查，趕快把法定預算編好，我們立刻就可以進入審查。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-17T11:14:37.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:14:39.040000+08:00","text":"以\n上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:14:39.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:14:44.559000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員發言，接下來請台灣民眾黨第三輪發言，麥委員玉珍請發言。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:14:50.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:14:51.863000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:14:55.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:15:10.588000+08:00","text":"我個人覺得是行政院長帶頭違法才會衍生後面那麼多事情，既\n衍生總預算審查的問題，又害我們浪費很多時間，個人覺得是這樣。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:15:10.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:15:31.260000+08:00","text":"因為源頭嘛，因為他沒有\n要大家去編的話，我總質詢的時候也說，是他指令大家不要編，還是說各個部會你們不依法去\n編？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:15:31.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:15:44.186000+08:00","text":"這個才是真正的原因，大家講的後面一堆原因其實不是原因，因為沒有這個源頭，怎麼會\n發生後面大家要依法去執行的問題，對不對？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:15:44.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:16:25.324000+08:00","text":"我們希望要求 6 萬，我是內政委員會的委員，我\n們審查的時候，高金委員是要增加 5 萬，但不是內政委員會的委員，他們的提案是 6 萬，還有\n民進黨的委員說應該要 7 萬也可以，我們就說不要，依我們的 6 萬就好，這也是大家一起同意\n要照這樣子的規定去走的，所以不依法的是行政院，不是我們立法院。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:16:26.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:16:36.450000+08:00","text":"所以我們立法院立法了\n，行政院不尊重我們，不只不尊重我們在野黨，我們小黨也是一樣，也是大家共同努力來的嘛\n。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:16:36.450000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:17:03.347000+08:00","text":"所以我希望請行政院要依法編列，不要說你認為 4 萬……所以他問我說沒聽到他說 4 萬，因\n協 14\n為我們法律上沒有 4萬這個字眼，所以他 4萬從哪裡來的，我當然聽不懂，我聽不懂。","quality":0.224},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:17:03.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:17:04.769000+08:00","text":"我們希望不要雙標，之前有很多的立法委員有再去退回總預算、要求重編，所以我們希望要\n尊重我們立法院，要退回重編是有這樣子的條款的。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:17:04.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:17:50.095000+08:00","text":"我們希望行政院自己不要違法，還要逼著\n我們立法院跟著你去違法，這樣不對的，因為我們立法的時候是你同意了，總統也公告了，所\n以這個我們要求照立法通過的去編列，我們很簡單這樣的要求而已，但是你一直拖延，浪費大\n家的時間，也沒辦法去做質詢，就像你們說的，到現在是誰的錯？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-17T11:17:50.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:19.429000+08:00","text":"是行政院整個部會你們的錯\n，你們害了行政院長，也害了總統，已經公布了，你們都不編，你們都不做，到最後變成我們\n再來怪來怪去，最罪惡的就是行政院你們的團隊，沒有把我們立法通過的去執行，我個人覺得\n大家到最後、到現在在浪費時間，謝謝大家。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:19.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:23.541000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥委員玉珍發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:23.541000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:27.653000+08:00","text":"現在高金委員二次發言，請柯建銘總召準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:27.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:31.765000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝韓院長，我現在二次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:31.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:51.417000+08:00","text":"我很簡短，只有 3點：第一點，我認為這不是\n政治攻防，也不是所謂的政治議題，這是立法院最卑微的要求，要求行政院依法行政，所以整\n個拖延時間的不是在野黨，是你們民進黨，是行政院。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:52.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:18:59.148000+08:00","text":"而且我要再講，7 名原住民立法委員都同\n意 6 萬塊，院長，你還記得嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:18:59.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:19:25.752000+08:00","text":"你在朝野協商的時候也沒有人提 4 萬塊，你還要求原民會剩下\n最後的 10 分鐘，請他們趕快來跟我們調解一下，最後的那一個 moment 底下，是不是可以把它\n降為我的提案 5 萬塊，但是都沒有任何一個人提，行政院沒有人提，主計長沒有人提，行政部\n門沒有人提 4萬這個字眼，所以 4萬是從哪裡來的？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:19:30.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:19:32.860000+08:00","text":"這個所謂的法在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:19:32.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:19:33.361000+08:00","text":"我一直要強調。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:19:33.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:19:34.642000+08:00","text":"再來就是剛剛主計長講的，我不同意，為什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:19:34.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:19:55.242000+08:00","text":"113 年 4 月 17 號我做內政委員會的召委，我\n還是要提醒一下，法務部門說攸關人民權益的保障，事涉主管機關跟大院的職權還有決定，「\n本部敬表尊重」，這是法務部的立場。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:19:55.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:20:06.728000+08:00","text":"第二個是農業部的立場，農業部說，提高禁伐補償金，\n還有擴大禁伐的範圍、區域，對於維護森林還有自然保育資源是有正面的效益。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:20:07.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:20:38.898000+08:00","text":"我們再來看一\n下主計總處回應我們質詢立委的回答說什麼，雖然不是主計長你說的，他說如果修法通過的話\n，基本就是屬於法律所必須編列的支出，我們行政部門就必須要編列預算的時候，會依照所通\n過的規定來編列，這是主計總處在現場的回應，這是公務人員的回應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:20:38.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:20:45.442000+08:00","text":"更何況主計長今年 9 月\n25 號到我的辦公室，你忘了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:20:45.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:20:51.686000+08:00","text":"主計長，你特別同意我剛剛所講的那些法律，我就不要再贅述\n。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:20:52.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:10.195000+08:00","text":"您最後告訴我們的是，你希望原民會趕快補提案到行政院去補足不足額的部分，希望原民會\n能夠依法辦理，主計長，您說的話您忘記了嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:10.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:12.096000+08:00","text":"我都有錄影下來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:12.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:23.580000+08:00","text":"最後，我要說蔡易餘幹事長說財政紀律法，我還是回歸到 104年的確是有修正，但是 109年 6\n月的三倍券要人民的納稅錢 515 億，哇！","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:23.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:24.580000+08:00","text":"好大的一筆數額喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:24.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:31.743000+08:00","text":"110 年 9月的五倍券要我們人民的\n納稅錢 1,100億，原民會現在只需要 17億，這有大量的金額嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:31.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:21:32.943000+08:00","text":"行政院長有必要為了這 17億在\n這邊浪費大家的時間嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:21:32.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:06.196000+08:00","text":"如同吳思瑤幹事長所講的，大家不要拖延時間了，如果你們真的有誠\n意，如果你們真的願意依法行政的話，那就趕快來處理這件事情，把沒有編足的 17 億編好，大\n家就可以審預算了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:06.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:15.122000+08:00","text":"最後，我要講臺灣到底是不是一個民主法治的國家，如果是的話，就請行\n政院依法行政，謝謝。協 15","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:15.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:15.122000+08:00","text":"謝謝高金委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:16.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:17.263000+08:00","text":"請柯建銘總召發言。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:17.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:19.704000+08:00","text":"發言完以後我們就要準備休息一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:20.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:22:49.229000+08:00","text":"大家都講臺灣是不是民主法治國家，剛才我一開始講話也敘述我們是一個法治國，一\n直在講行政院要依法行事，當然行政院一定要依法行事，所以不管行政院或是立法院，所有的\n都必須在合憲合法底下來做事情，這是一個大原則，沒有所謂的誰可以不依法行事的。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:22:50.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:23:00.737000+08:00","text":"為什麼\n今天會有這個爭執，我剛才也講過，三讀通過，賴總統一定要公告，至於這個法合憲與否，那\n就有待釋憲。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:23:02.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:23:27.629000+08:00","text":"今天我在這裡講到我們想辦法來解決問題，也並不是要在這裡爭執什麼，但是回到一個很核\n心的問題，剛才我一開始就講，大家也一直在講這個問題，就是預算法第九十一條的問題，我\n整個邏輯是從憲法第七十條，大法官釋憲第 264 號、第 391 號到財劃法、預算法及財政紀律法\n，這是我們要一起看待的。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:23:28.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:23:46.203000+08:00","text":"我們要一起看待的時候如何來解決這個問題，我剛才講完以後，大\n家一直講你剛才講什麼預算法第九十一條要徵求行政院的意見，然後找出財源，這個就是問題\n之所在。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:23:49.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:24:02.499000+08:00","text":"1998 年預算法修正的時候我在現場，因為這是立法院寫的法案，立法院要增加預算，\n當然它知道在憲法上面預算權是屬於行政院的，預算要編多少是行政院編的，假如它不徵求行\n政院的意見，大家沒有談好的話，當然行政院有不同意的權力，因為預算是它編的，它是一個\n責任政治，它必須負責的。","quality":0.424},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:24:28.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:24:39.890000+08:00","text":"回到本案，當初這樣講就是立法院遵照在憲政體制底下，立法院必須有最基本的謙抑原則，\n否則的話根本就不必理會行政院，所以預算法精神是如此，我希望大家要把這個東西談清楚。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:24:42.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:25:08.028000+08:00","text":"我們假如弄一個法讓它通過，在合憲性底下有問題的話，像這個禁伐補償要增加一倍以上的預\n算，假如我們沒有在合憲性底下討論這個事情的話，那過去兩兆乃至所有的預算，法通過的話\n統統都要執行，這個國家怎麼能 Run 得下去呢？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:25:08.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:25:30.939000+08:00","text":"這個國家沒有辦法走下去的，我們知道有兩兆\n的環島高鐵等等，所以我希望大家冷靜一下，今天並沒有所謂行政院對原住民有任何苛刻，我\n知道高金素梅替你原住民地區的選民爭取福利，這天經地義，我都贊成。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:25:32.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:25:42.688000+08:00","text":"我們大家不要有情緒性的字眼，我今天儘量不要講情緒性的字眼，因為一個政策的形成要政\n策評估，政策有優先順序，原住民的經費多少？","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:25:45.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:25:58.518000+08:00","text":"110 億左右，假如增加 Double 的話，26 億變成\n52 億，占整個原住民委員會經費的 47%，那它嘉惠了多少人？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:25:58.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:01.425000+08:00","text":"只是 7%的人在用這個東西，7%\n嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:02.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:02.729000+08:00","text":"7%或 9%的人。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:03.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:35.514000+08:00","text":"原住民委員會有很多政務要推動，有人事費用、業務費用，還有很多部分，\n像地方的馬路等等，很多公共建設要去推動，假如是這樣的話，造成他們可以動用的資金只剩\n下 12%而已，所以我們現在講的不是說整個政府要花三兆多，而這個只有幾億而已，我們是講\n一個政策形成上面有其固定的政策評估、優先順序。","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:41.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:46.987000+08:00","text":"剛才吳春城委員也講得很清楚，為什麼大\n家會這麼硬，這麼硬幹什麼？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:46.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:50.248000+08:00","text":"我們也不是要這麼硬，大家也會覺得很悶啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:51.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:52.149000+08:00","text":"為了這個二十幾億\n，你們在爭什麼？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:52.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:26:52.929000+08:00","text":"你們執政黨在搞什麼鬼？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:26:57.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:03.426000+08:00","text":"從法邏輯上面去看，我也不希望弄出這樣一個不是\n等比例的預算。","quality":0.519},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:05.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:17.682000+08:00","text":"我們回到整個憲政體制上面來看，即權力分立原則，當這樣可以的時候，預算法根本就不要\n了，當然要徵詢行政院同意嘛！","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:18.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:19.623000+08:00","text":"本來就是要這樣嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:19.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:25.906000+08:00","text":"否則我們國會多數通過的法你就要照做，\n協 16\n那責任政治是沒有辦法產生的。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:26.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:48.506000+08:00","text":"所以我今天是在嘗試解決，如果我們大家同意的話，用 4 萬，\n然後照物價指數每兩年調整一次，這個跟行政院談還有空間；如果不行的話，只有釋憲一途了\n，大家在這裡爭了半天，還是會回到合憲合法上面去談。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:48.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:50.108000+08:00","text":"對不起，我先唸一下這個，因為我已經等了很久，大家聽聽看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:50.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:27:51.710000+08:00","text":"拜託各黨團幹部，還有我們\n主計長、行政部門聽聽看，我嘗試說一下，大家要發言等一下再說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:27:51.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:28:39.952000+08:00","text":"我想我們先嘗試性地做兩\n點小結論，請各黨團幹部稍微仔細聆聽一、請主計長針對本次協商各黨團所提的意見，再進一\n步研擬出適切解決方案，包括禁伐補償、公糧收購、健保點值等，於下次協商會議時提出；二\n、請各黨團幹部來關切一下，我們下次協商時間定於 21 號（星期一）早上，當天請主計長提出\n具體解決的方案。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:28:42.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:28:47.167000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，對我這樣的一個結論有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:28:47.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:28:48.167000+08:00","text":"21號是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:28:47.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:28:47.348000+08:00","text":"對，21 號早上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:28:48.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:13.888000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們選擇 24 號，如果不行，我們還要再加開協商，所以我們先提\n21 號（星期一）早上 10 點，當天再請主計長具體的提出來，您正好大概有將近三到四天可以去\n好好溝通一下，顯然你這邊不提出，您可以看得到嘛，各黨團大家的意見紛紛都提出來了。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:15.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:18.790000+08:00","text":"因為我們今天有四個案子，我們下面進入到考試委員人事同意權的案子，所以我先……","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:18.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:19.790000+08:00","text":"報告院長，不好意思！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:19.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:20.790000+08:00","text":"我只要一點點時間，剛剛因為……不行！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:20.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:21.790000+08:00","text":"不、不，剛才吳思瑤委員要發言我還沒同意，所以您稍待，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:21.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:22.790000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:18.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:27.397000+08:00","text":"因為我們還有下面的考試委員人事同意權、能源配比以及公職人員選罷法，我們還要往下推\n，我想請教各黨團幹部，要不要訂便當？","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:44.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:44.673000+08:00","text":"如果大家同意要繼續開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:44.673000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:29:55.602000+08:00","text":"我們趕快處理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:29:55.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:30:27.109000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我們黨團協商到時候會徵詢各黨團的意見，如果我們要持續開會下去的話，現在\n總務部門要準備各位的午餐，所以要徵詢一下大家，這個每個人都要徵詢，而且我們要進入到\n第二案考試委員人事同意權，我想這樣的話，我知道各個委員心中還是有些話要講，我建議是\n等到下一次主計長提出具體方案的時候，大家再把意見提出來，可能這樣會比較好一點，好嗎\n？對！","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:30:27.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:30:28.730000+08:00","text":"下禮拜一預計大概是在下午。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:30:30.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:30:36.854000+08:00","text":"另外一點，我們休息 5 分鐘之後，我們進入第二案，因為考試院人事同意權我們不能卡在這\n裡，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:30:37.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:30:38.455000+08:00","text":"我們休息 5分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:30:38.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:39:10.504000+08:00","text":"剛才我開始就有講，有關於人事同意權的部分等大法官釋憲出來才能夠知道怎麼處理\n嘛！","quality":0.054},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:39:10.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:39:10.624000+08:00","text":"等一下再討論。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:39:10.624000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:39:16.866000+08:00","text":"休息（11時 30分）\n繼續開會（11時 39分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:39:16.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:39:36.397000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們各黨團幹部都到場了，現在大家請坐下，現在我們針對第二案第 14 屆考試院人\n事同意權案，113 年 10 月 4 號已經交付協商，現在就教各位黨團幹部，我們請柯建銘總召請發\n言。協 17","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:39:41.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:40:56.198000+08:00","text":"我剛才也有談了，當然就今天重中之重還是有關於三大預算，至於考試院人事同意權\n，乃至於後面都有同意權，大法官在釋憲也做出暫時處分，在立法院通過同意權行使總共有五\n個條文，第二十九條、第二十九條之一、第三十條、第三十條之一，第三十一條當然是比較不\n重要，就是通過以後報總統，這裡面有第二十九條之一、第三十條、第三十條之一被暫時處分\n，乃至於第二十九條的時候，在憲法庭的時候，黃昭元大法官也問到一個問題，有點出一些問\n題，就是說審查的時候可以找社會公正人士或是團體來參與審查，這個當然會變成外面的人化\n身為立法委員，這是立法院通過的法案，我比較誠懇的建議就是說，我相信大法官做到 10 月底\n，10 月底以前應該釋憲出來，我們看釋憲出來的文旨是怎麼樣，那我們再來討論，這樣可能比\n較合理。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:41:01.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:41:12.497000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯建銘總召的發言，國民黨團、台灣民眾黨團，我如果針對這個精神發言的內容，我們\n針對第二案，我們就是同意權行使，我們就繼續溝通。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:41:15.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:41:15.499000+08:00","text":"傅總召請。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:41:15.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:41:19.783000+08:00","text":"抱歉，各政黨總是要有一次發言，不能說只有執政者在發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:41:23.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:42:41.273000+08:00","text":"我想考試院的人事，我們要謝謝院長今天召集對於考試院的人事是否能夠到立法院來\n審議，提出了今天的朝野協商，我想我們是樂觀其成，畢竟我們國家考試要經過考試院相關單\n位來執行這些國家人才的拔擢工作，國民黨的立場是對這件事情樂觀其成，但是我們比較好奇\n就是到現在為止，考試院的正副院長的任期可能已經結束了，8 月底結束，但是我們比較好奇就\n是說，執政黨到現在為止對於這件事情到底是有沒有正式地提出來，我們趕快來協商，是不是\n能夠儘快來對這些人事案能夠進入實質的審查，國民黨的立場是希望國家的這些人才的拔擢，\n所有的這些程序不要有任何的延宕，我們願意全力來配合，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:42:41.273000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:42:42.273000+08:00","text":"謝謝傅崐萁總召，接下來請台灣民眾黨表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:42:41.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:43:39.820000+08:00","text":"我們台灣民眾黨黨團提出這個案子，基本上就是善意，要不然一天到晚在媒體上面放\n話、做梗圖，說讓什麼國家考試沒有辦法舉行，讓人看不下去，所以我們就提案要審，現在如\n果連執政黨自己都認為他們不急，要等憲法法庭，我們也 OK，這種事情沒有什麼好爭執的，只\n是就請今天過了以後，我們就依照我們的執政黨黨團的意見，等到憲法法庭做出解釋以後再來\n審查，就不要一天到晚再繼續抹黑在野黨，說在野黨都不審人事同意權，不要在這邊講一套，\n出去又講另外一套，這樣就好了。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:43:44.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:43:46.585000+08:00","text":"1分鐘就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:43:46.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:43:50.426000+08:00","text":"感謝剛才傅總召以及黃總召所有的發言都樂觀其成嘛！","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:43:51.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:02.309000+08:00","text":"基本上我印象中沒有做什麼惡\n意攻擊，至少我不會這樣講，不要笑得那麼詭異吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:07.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:16.049000+08:00","text":"現在大家都很是誠懇的，我們在 8 月 2 號\n就發文了，坦白講，我想這一題大家有共識，因為將來沒有考試院長的話很麻煩，考試不用舉\n行，我們也承擔不起的，謝謝。","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:20.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:25.890000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，三個黨團總召，我來唸一下結論：同意權行使就繼續溝通。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:26.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:30.813000+08:00","text":"協 18\n接下來進行第三案，第三案就是能源配比專案報告，同意嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:30.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:32.674000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:33.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:44:49.768000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我們現在進行第三案，關於賴政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告，並備質詢\n案，這是台灣民眾黨提出，現在請表達意見。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:44:52.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:45:05.663000+08:00","text":"這是台灣民眾黨黨團本來在院會裡面提出來的，既然要進入協商冷凍期一個月，我們\n也尊重目前立法院職權行使法生效的法律，就要進入協商冷凍期。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:45:06.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:45:50.259000+08:00","text":"那我們覺得能源配比跟電價\n政策非常的重要，有必要請卓榮泰院長帶著經濟部部長、相關的部會首長到院會進行專案報告\n，因為這是全體國人非常非常的關心，雖然昨天在經濟委員會，在委員會的層級有針對這件事\n情試圖請經濟部部長──郭智輝部長進行說明，不過我相信昨天的委員會結束了以後，恐怕留\n給大家的問題遠遠多過於解決的問題，因為根本說不清楚、講不明白嘛！","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:45:51.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:05.263000+08:00","text":"昨天在整個經濟委員\n會討論的過程當中，包括了未來的能源配比、未來再生能源，之前跳票嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:06.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:10.705000+08:00","text":"2025 年說要到 20%\n，現在延到 2026 年的時候說要到 20%嘛！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:11.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:12.925000+08:00","text":"基本的路徑到底要怎麼達成盤點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:15.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:18.158000+08:00","text":"需要的土地要從什\n麼地方來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:18.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:38.191000+08:00","text":"因為昨天整個報告內容，我相信很多委員都有參與了，那我自己的評價，最起碼從\n台灣民眾黨黨團的立場的評價是認為他留下來的問題比解決的問題還要多，所以我們還是認為\n有必要進行這個專案報告，說清楚、講明白。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:40.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:52.581000+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團總召黃國昌的發言，已經提出來他為什麼要請求召集朝野協商，針對能\n源配比跟電價政策。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:53.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:54.663000+08:00","text":"請問剩下兩位黨團裡面哪一位要發言？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:46:55.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:46:56.704000+08:00","text":"請傅崐萁總召，柯建銘總召請準備。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:47:00.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:47:20.467000+08:00","text":"我想這個大概是目前我們國家非常重要、首重的一件重大的事情，而且跟民生非常非\n常息息相關，今年已經漲了兩次電價，那明年還要漲幾次電價？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:47:23.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:47:42.618000+08:00","text":"過去，2023 年已經撥補了 2,500\n億，在疫後又撥補了 500 億，加上今年、明年又再加 2,000 億，本席一直在懷疑是不是看錯資料\n，總共加起來可能要撥補 5,000 億啊！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:47:43.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:47:44.440000+08:00","text":"接下來到底跟全國國人還要拿多少錢？","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:47:44.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:47:53.955500+08:00","text":"我們的能源配比的\n情況到底是怎樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:47:53.955500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:48:03.471000+08:00","text":"我想這個真的是有必要請卓榮泰院長到立法院來跟大家做一個說明。","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:48:03.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:48:25.746000+08:00","text":"我想我\n們大家養兒育女都很辛苦，到菜市場去萬物皆漲，就是因為電價漲，所有的民生物資全部都在\n大漲，所以這關係到全國民生的問題，我想這個是一個非常嚴肅的問題，我們希望儘快能夠請\n卓榮泰院長就我們國家能源發展的政策到底是怎樣，全國人民有必要了解，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:48:26.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:48:29.387000+08:00","text":"接下來民進黨黨團請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:48:29.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:48:47.136000+08:00","text":"有關於黃總召所提出能源配比這個專案報告，他剛才也談到了，昨天在委員會也提過\n，當然還有一些沒有辦法釋疑，乃至於還有一些問題要問，我能夠體會。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:48:48.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:09.452000+08:00","text":"傅總召剛才也談了，\n但它並不是撥補 5,000 億，台電整個財務結構是這樣，它先增資，然後今年再預算撥補 1,000 億\n，明年再 1,000 億，這樣的話，整個台電財務結構會相對健全，能夠損益平衡，當然這中間還有\n要漲價的部分。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:18.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:33.868000+08:00","text":"我們不可能一直用電去補助一些賺錢的行業，這是社會公平的問題，所以要再\n請院長來做專案報告，我認為也無不可啦，沒關係啦，可以的啦！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:34.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:38.871000+08:00","text":"但我是覺得我們先把總預算\n的很多題目慢慢推上來，好不好？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:39.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:40.632000+08:00","text":"優先順序先推一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:41.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:41.973000+08:00","text":"同意啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:41.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:44.769000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，再來排時間，是不\n是還可以跟追加減一起還是怎麼樣，另外排，大家來商量都沒有關係啦，好不好？好。","quality":0.205},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:44.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:45.569000+08:00","text":"現在我們請經濟部郭部長表達意見，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:45.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:45.689000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。協 19謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:45.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:46.310000+08:00","text":"韓院長以及各位委員，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:47.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:49:49.451000+08:00","text":"以下針對能源配比跟電價政策，我先做一個簡\n要的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:49:49.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:50:40.411000+08:00","text":"我國的能源轉型政策以再生能源為主軸，同時搭配低碳天然氣發電，並推動地熱、\n小水力等新能源的利用，穩定供電、多元綠能、減煤減碳，這與國際的趨勢是一致的，而能源\n配比以 2030 年達燃氣五成、再生能源三成及燃煤兩成為目標。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:50:40.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:51:02.984000+08:00","text":"有關於電價的政策，電價是否調\n整是由電價審議委員決定，已經依立法院的決議，由學者專家及民間團體代表所組成的外部委\n員人數過半，電價審議將更具專業以及代表性。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:51:04.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:51:21.460000+08:00","text":"本次的電價調整，審議委員秉持著照顧民生、\n穩定電價以及兼顧產業競爭力這兩項原則來進行，含民生用電一共有 95%是沒有調整的，景氣\n不好的產業不調或者減半，經營良好而有調漲的工業大戶，我們馬上會透過深度節能輔導，也\n幫助業者可以減少電費的支出。","quality":0.551},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-17T11:51:22.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:51:22.989000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:51:23.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:51:41.526000+08:00","text":"謝謝郭部長，到時候專案報告，你剛剛講的內容，你可能還要再講一次。是的。好。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:51:42.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:52:21.491000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我想我嘗試性地提出一個我的建議：各黨團同意 10月 25號（星期五）\n邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席，提出賴清德政府所提能源配比及電價政策專案報告並\n備質詢，質詢人數由國民黨團推派 7 位，民進黨團推派 7 位，台灣民眾黨團推派 1 位進行，每\n位委員質詢詢答時間為 15 分鐘；質詢順序依例授權議事處處理。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:52:21.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:52:24.113000+08:00","text":"名單請於 10 月 24 號（星期四\n）中午 12 時前交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:52:24.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:52:44.173000+08:00","text":"請問各黨團幹部，針對行政院院長到院專案報告\n能源配比及電價政策，有沒有其他寶貴意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:52:44.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:52:44.433000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:52:50.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:52:51.358000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:52:52.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:53:15.204000+08:00","text":"剛剛看到這個預擬結論，現在大家討論一下，方向上我們也都尊\n重在野黨提出這項專案報告的請求，我還是希望再爭取一下，因為上一次第一次的協商也有這\n個議案，那時候我們就希望主張，因為整個能源政策、電價的調漲，包括剛剛傅崐萁總召講的\n要撥補多少、要調漲的漲幅多少，其實這是連帶的，所以如果能夠在預算已經付委的狀況下，\n在這一場專案報告裡頭就一併把台電的追加減預算放在一起來進行，不曉得適不適合？","quality":0.509},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:53:15.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:53:57.420000+08:00","text":"前提是\n，因為這是 25 號下週五，還有院會的時間嘛，所以我提出來，就是本黨的立場是同意這個專案\n報告，但是它跟追加減預算應當是一併來考量，這樣委員在質詢上更全面，那政策是有連帶性\n的，我們做出這樣的建議。","quality":0.678},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:53:57.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:01.161000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長，但是專案報告跟預算編列的性質不一樣。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:02.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:03.721000+08:00","text":"以前也有、以前也有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:03.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:05.742000+08:00","text":"周秘書長，你不要主導什麼可以不可以，這是各黨的委員在談話，不是你在參加朝野\n協商。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:07.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:07.462000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:18.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:33.658000+08:00","text":"針對吳思瑤幹事長說要併同追加減這部分在專案報告裡面說明，我想這根\n本是兩回事啊，我們現在的專報是行政院來就我們的能源配比還有能源結構做專報，怎麼會牽\n扯到所謂追加減預算的問題呢？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:33.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:38.262000+08:00","text":"到底我們的總預算會不會付委，而付委之後，到了委員會或者行政院長來做總預算報告的時\n協 20\n候都會一併提出，跟這次的專報是完全沒有任何的相關，所以我們不要離題，以上。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:54:38.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:54:38.522000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召請發言，蔡易餘幹事長請準備。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:55:00.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:55:32.406000+08:00","text":"這個是我們台灣民眾黨的提案，台灣民眾黨的提案就是針對能源配比跟電價政策來進\n行專案報告，那個跟追加減預算是兩個不同層次的事情，上次在協商的時候我已經清楚地表達\n了這個立場，民進黨如果要提什麼追加減預算的報告，那就請他們自己提嘛，他們的建議並不\n在我提案的範圍當中，我們提案的內容非常地具體明確，就是按照能源配比及電價政策進行專\n案報告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:55:33.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:55:46.764000+08:00","text":"這個逕付二讀被拉協商，也不是拉協商，反正現在新法就強制進入協商，然後等一個\n月嘛，所以我們就靜待協商期滿的時候就按照議事規則來處理。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:55:48.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:56:02.028000+08:00","text":"關於院長預擬的這個決議，我原則上是沒有什麼問題啦，因為 7、7、1 嘛，按照政黨席次來\n做比例上面的分配，我們也都尊重。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T11:56:02.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:56:56.556000+08:00","text":"我只是想說可不可以爭取一下，每位委員詢答的時間可以\n稍微再長一點，因為我們台灣民眾黨只有一個人，是不是每位委員詢答的時間……現在如果每\n位委員詢答時間 15 分鐘的話，加起來是 15 個人嘛，15 個人的話，如果說 1 個小時可以進行 4\n個人，大概 4 個小時多一點點就結束了；如果上午、下午都有時間可以用，大概可以用到 5 個\n多小時的話，那詢答的時間是不是可以稍微斟酌，譬如說把它延長到 20 分鐘，因為我大概算過\n時間，如果到 20 分鐘的話，剛好是用滿一整個整天嘛，只是這樣子的時間上……我只是提這樣\n一個建議啦，其他黨團同不同意，我們都尊重。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:56:59.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:03.757000+08:00","text":"柯總召、傅總召，如果這樣子的話，黃總召提這個，我們可不可以再改為 9、9、2？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:03.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:05.798000+08:00","text":"等一下，我講一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:08.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:13.002000+08:00","text":"關於專案報告，剛才我們民進黨團有提到，就是和追加減預算……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:14.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:16.244000+08:00","text":"對不起，是蔡易餘書記長先發言。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:16.244000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:20.067000+08:00","text":"沒關係，給總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:20.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:26.431000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛有提到，是不是可以跟追加預算併在一起嘛，政策和預算絕對息息相關，是\n不是這樣？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:28.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:31.855000+08:00","text":"為什麼要追加預算 1,000 億？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:31.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:38.559000+08:00","text":"從總預算裡面來，明年度還有 1,000 億，當然這可以併\n談，假如不併談，我們也不堅持啦當然不堅持。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:41.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:51.729000+08:00","text":"這個朝野協商就是彼此互相尊重，有些大家有\n疑問的也要問清楚，包括剛才傅崐萁總召說要補助 5,000 億，這就是有誤解才會產生這種結果，\n大家談清楚。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:51.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:57:56.945000+08:00","text":"增資啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:57:56.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:58:09.108000+08:00","text":"增資沒有到 5,000 億啦，因為增資完畢了，電價也漲完了嘛，們現在只剩下兩個追加\n預算，OK。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:58:11.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:58:24.491000+08:00","text":"院長，只有這樣一個，不要的話我也沒有意見，因為追加預算院長還是要再報告一\n次，都無所謂，大家愈講愈清楚，沒關係，有問題就去問。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:58:27.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:58:42.762000+08:00","text":"過去都是 7、7、1 啦，有另外一個\n方式，過去常常在台聯、時代力量要求底下，雖然這樣寫，我會讓一個給他，就是我們讓一個\n給他們，過去啦！","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:58:45.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:58:48.467000+08:00","text":"所以就是說國民黨是不是可以讓一個給民眾黨？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:58:48.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:16.725000+08:00","text":"反正你們合在一起嘛，7、7\n協 21\n、1 這個長期以來都是一定的，不要破壞遊戲規則，如果私下要讓，國民黨讓一個給他就變兩個\n嘛，他就變 30 分鐘了嘛，也可以兩個發問，吳春城也很會問嘛，這樣也可以解決，大家自己去\n調配就好，過去長期都是這樣處理，這樣就有 30分鐘。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:18.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:22.448000+08:00","text":"特別謝謝柯總召，這個總預算……","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:22.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:36.936000+08:00","text":"總預算不編，現在連國民黨的這些 quota 你也在幫我們分配啦，這個真的是，執政黨\n已經管到在野黨來了，我們老柯是朝野都在管！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:36.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:39.298000+08:00","text":"老大不照顧人家怎麼行！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:39.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:42.899000+08:00","text":"我們立法院秘書長也是柯總召的管區，他一併管。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:45.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:48.262000+08:00","text":"沒有，秘書長不是在這裡的朝野協商可以發言……","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:48.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:49.943000+08:00","text":"沒有關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:49.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:50.943000+08:00","text":"……還沒發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:49.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:52.824000+08:00","text":"有意見大家都可以講啊。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:52.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:53.824000+08:00","text":"這要弄清楚，過去從來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:52.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:54.044000+08:00","text":"老柯啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:54.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:55.605000+08:00","text":"你在這裡 30 年了，真的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:56.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:58.486000+08:00","text":"除了男人生小孩不行以外，其他都可以啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T11:59:59.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T11:59:59.767000+08:00","text":"大\n家慢慢討論，沒關係啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:01.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:03.169000+08:00","text":"男人不可能懷孕，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:03.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:04.810000+08:00","text":"總歸要合法合憲啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:04.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:07.713000+08:00","text":"如果柯總召可以懷孕，我也很佩服他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:09.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:30.664000+08:00","text":"院長，這個事情是不是就這樣子，我們既然是\n開會，從早上法定期間開到下午 5 點半，是不是這個時間我們就把它運用得充分一點，因為 15\n分鐘還是 20 分鐘，其實沒有這麼嚴格啦！","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:31.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:34.106000+08:00","text":"其實大家都可以討論，沒有什麼事是不能討論的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:36.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:00:43.452000+08:00","text":"如\n果過去就是 7、7、1 的話，我們是不是可以調整到 20 分鐘？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:00:43.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:12.597000+08:00","text":"讓民眾也感覺到，既然是這麼重大\n的能源政策議題，則我們是不是可以有一個比較完整的討論，一直到下班時間，我們完整的把\n它討論完，我覺得剛剛黃總召所提質詢時間是不是可以一個單位是 20 分鐘，我想這樣的話會有\n一個比較完整的詢答，確實這也不會像走馬燈這樣一直跑來跑去，好不好？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:13.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:13.298000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:13.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:15.478500+08:00","text":"謝謝傅總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:15.478500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:17.659000+08:00","text":"黃總召你要補充嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:17.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:29.465000+08:00","text":"第一個，我是說我們就按照本來的人數分配，也不需要什麼其他政黨讓不讓的問題，\n就按照這個原則訂下去就好。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:30.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:47.980000+08:00","text":"第二個，我只是認為在上班的時間當中，算完了那個人數跟 15 分\n鐘的時間，其實一天院會的時間沒有辦法真正被充分利用，所以我再提議拉到 20 分鐘，拉到 20\n分鐘了以後，你說會到晚上嗎？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:47.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:49.001000+08:00","text":"也不會到晚上啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:49.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:01:57.575000+08:00","text":"大概下午 5 點就結束了，在整個程序上面，\n在整個時間的計算上面，一點問題都沒有啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:01:57.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:00.965000+08:00","text":"我們請議事處高處長跟大家說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:00.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:40.074000+08:00","text":"跟各位黨鞭說明，因為我們現在的草稿寫的是 25 號、是星期五，星期五其實院會都\n要進行報告事項，報告事項原則上差不多都會經過 1 個小時，所以真正開始讓行政院長來做專\n案報告，他要先說明 30 分鐘之後，大家才開始每個人 15 分鐘或 20 分鐘，7、7、1，原則上過\n協 22\n去這個星期五就會比較長，除非我們把它改成是星期二早上 9 點，時間當然就會更充裕，所以\n25 號或是哪一天，因為還是草稿，所以大家可以去選擇或去考慮，因為這是星期五，要不然星\n期二也可以。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:40.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:41.074000+08:00","text":"那就星期二！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:41.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:42.074000+08:00","text":"星期二可以！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:42.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:43.074000+08:00","text":"就是 29號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:43.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:44.074000+08:00","text":"我們來寫一下草稿，7、7、1；20分鐘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:44.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:45.074000+08:00","text":"沒關係，吳思瑤委員幹事長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:41.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:02:43.994000+08:00","text":"我們還是交換一下意見，時間要怎麼安排都可以討論。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:02:43.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:03:25.096000+08:00","text":"現在是這樣，依我們過去以來\n的慣例，譬如說總預算的質詢一個人 15分鐘，我們在政黨質詢或者是個別質詢，都是 15乘以 2\n等於 30，15 就是一個單位，如果今天要因為這個專案報告調成每一位變 20 分鐘，以後可能就\n是一個慣例了。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:03:25.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:03:38.026000+08:00","text":"我覺得今天我們的出發點都是願意讓小黨多一點時間討論，但是不要把過去規\n定的 15 分鐘、15 分鐘制改掉，如果是這樣，就是會面對以後可能都變成 20 分鐘成為一個單位\n。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:03:39.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:03:50.295000+08:00","text":"因為目標是讓小黨的朋友們可以多一點時間，我真的建議我們就酌升質詢人數成為 9、9、2，\n這樣是 OK的，就不會去動到那個 15分鐘，其實對於民眾黨來講，他們可以從一位 20分可以問\n到兩位 30 分，這樣一來這個慣例不要輕易的去改變，我覺得這樣可能比較好，請大家可以來支\n持，謝謝。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:03:50.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:01.455500+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的發言，非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:01.455500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:12.616000+08:00","text":"如果這樣的話，我們必須要延到下星期二、10 月 29 號\n，我們從早上 9點就開始專案報告，不要影響到星期五的部分，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:12.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:13.297000+08:00","text":"我再修正一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:13.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:26.469000+08:00","text":"各黨團如果同意的話，我們 10 月 29 號（星期二）開始進行，行政院長率同\n相關部會首長列席提出能源配比及電價政策專案報告，並備質詢。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:27.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:38.537000+08:00","text":"質詢的人數，我們國民黨團\n推派 9 位；民進黨團推派 9 位；台灣民眾黨黨團推派 2 位委員進行。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:39.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:40.338000+08:00","text":"每位委員詢答時間 15 分鐘\n，質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:40.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:44.540000+08:00","text":"名單請於 10 月 28 號中午 12 點以前送進議事處彙整，逾時視\n同放棄。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:44.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:44.920000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:44.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:51.080000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見，好，那我們就達成了，謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:51.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:04:57.240000+08:00","text":"我們先\n來簽字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:04:57.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:05:24.105000+08:00","text":"接下來進入討論第四案「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，由傅崐萁委員等 16 人提\n案，113年 7月 12號交付協商，二、許宇甄委員等 20位委員提案，113年 7月 12號交付協商。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:05:24.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:05:29.229000+08:00","text":"我們現在請提案委員傅崐萁委員說明，謝謝經濟部郭部長列席備詢，謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:05:37.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:06:01.717000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁委員發言之前，我們先介紹今天列席各單位的部會內閣首長，首先歡迎內政部劉部長\n，熱情歡迎；再來歡迎中央選舉委員會李主任委員，熱情歡迎；第三位歡迎司法院民事廳的周\n廳長，熱情歡迎；法務部的廖參事，熱情歡迎；還有張法官，熱情歡迎，謝謝！","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:06:04.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:06:06.300000+08:00","text":"請提案委員傅\n崐萁總召發言。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:06:40.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:06:42.195000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:06:48.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:07:44.201000+08:00","text":"從 2016 年到現在，民進黨能夠執政，能夠第三次的來連任，拿到中華民\n國的執政權，除了好好的來施政以外，國家各種體制是應該要安定的，明明憲法、公職人員選\n協 23\n罷法都寫得很清楚，包括總統、副總統的任期，也包括縣、市長、立法委員，甚至議員、村里\n長代表，都有明確的任期，與民有約。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:07:44.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:08:00.354000+08:00","text":"人民經過神聖的投票以後，會制定 4 年的任期是一定有\n它的原因，讓他能夠確實好好的來施政，把人民所託的事項能夠一一來完成。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:08:02.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:08:12.883000+08:00","text":"但是我們發現，最近此風不可長，國家社會的動盪，而非全民之福。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:08:14.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:08:40.465000+08:00","text":"有什麼事情，尤其在國\n會，大家都可以討論，中央的政策都可以討論，只要是有利於人民的，真理是越說越明，而罷\n免實在是最後一個非常極端的手段，這雖然是國家賦予的一個權利、人民的權利，但是我們要\n審慎來使用。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:08:43.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:09:06.890000+08:00","text":"從過去不管這麼多的縣、市長也好，還是議員也好，還是立委也好，各政黨都有被圍剿的目\n標，但是我要特別強調，這樣擾攘不安難道能夠讓政治、讓臺灣的政局更加安定嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:09:06.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:09:24.594000+08:00","text":"尤其現在\n聽說明年有所謂的大罷免潮，這對於所有的這些國會議員依法行使職權，產生了莫大的壓迫跟\n威嚇，尤其對在野黨來講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:09:27.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:09:48.027000+08:00","text":"外面有很多不實的謠言，什麼在野黨有提出要罷免執政黨 20 席立委相關的這些所謂的標的人\n物，本席要代表國民黨在這裡嚴正的表達，從來就沒有這樣的一個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:09:49.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:10:17.050000+08:00","text":"不管是我們黨團還是\n我們黨中央，朱立倫主席講得很清楚，這都不是國家之福，我們不能動盪，我們從來沒有去規\n劃任何相關的這些事務，完全沒有，我們想在這裡以正視聽做一次講清楚，絕對沒有這樣的事\n情，我們也不希望國家執政者用強大的國家資源跟優勢來壓迫在野黨，讓在野黨的國會議員沒\n有辦法好好地來執行職務。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:10:25.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:11:01.110000+08:00","text":"尤其剛剛才在基隆行使完成的市長罷免案，這對整個國家或是地方都是一個莫大成本的耗費\n，這段期間是不是整個在地的市民要面對這樣的一個撞擊，在整體市政府的施政當中，是不是\n能夠很完整、順暢地來執行職務？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:11:01.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:11:02.090000+08:00","text":"這都非國家之福。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:11:03.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:11:56.853000+08:00","text":"接下來有各種不同樣的風聲很多，但是我\n們還是一樣覺得，國民有的權利我們尊重，不管這 25%是否合理，尤其 50%、55%、60%當選的\n這些公職人員，卻用 25%要去否決他的職務，這個比例就不符合相關的原則、不符合民意的託\n付，更何況現在還有眾多的以假亂真，所以一支筆幾個人用就可以抄了一堆所謂的連署書。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:11:56.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:12:25.642000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分也不只是今天本黨所提出來，我們也很清楚，民進黨的選委會也曾經不斷地對\n這個問題在質疑，到底這些連署是否為本人連署，過去也聽到有所謂都已經過世了怎麼還會參\n與連署，而且過世多時。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:12:25.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:13:11.263000+08:00","text":"所以我們要把人民神聖的權利能夠讓他確實來行使，而不會被冒用，\n因此我們國民黨、本席也提出，要確切實實是國民的權益，而不是被他人來冒用、來取代，所\n以在所有連署的時候，要比照總統大選的連署，必須要有身分證正反面影本還有發證日期，以\n示對國民行使他神聖權益的時候不會被其他任何人來給他冒用、盜用。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:13:12.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:13:24.376000+08:00","text":"能夠讓我們的一切更加\n清楚、更加確定，不要讓人民的權益被無端的冒用行使。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:13:24.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:13:36.683000+08:00","text":"所以提出修法，也經過院會逕付二讀\n，然後朝野協商，今天院會的協商就是必要程序的一環。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:13:36.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:13:50.238000+08:00","text":"因為在行使最後國會的權益，國會就\n代表百分之百全國的民意，當國會最後要做決議之前，我們依照職權行使法，所以必須要經過\n院長的朝野協商。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:13:51.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:12.896000+08:00","text":"因此我們今天所提出來的原因都非常地清楚，保障人民的權益不會被冒用、盜用、濫用，所\n協 24\n以我們必須要很負責任地提出修法，讓未來能夠更加清楚、更加明確，也在這裡提出，也希望\n朝野都能夠支持。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:13.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:20.858000+08:00","text":"這不是針對誰、針對哪一個黨，這是所有的各級公職一體適用，不分黨派一\n體適用。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:20.858000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:26.265500+08:00","text":"柯建銘總召請發言，黃國昌總召請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:26.265500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:31.673000+08:00","text":"民進黨團要交由吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:31.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:35.877000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我想我的發言先不要進入條文的實質。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:35.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:14:37.779000+08:00","text":"我想跟院長先請教一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:14:38.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:06.503000+08:00","text":"依照過去\n的議事慣例跟議事規則，任何單一法案以逕付二讀的方式，首先要先由該提案的黨團先召集黨\n團協商，所以我手上也有拿到議事處正式發文給民進黨團，也就是有關許宇甄委員或是傅崐萁\n委員兩位所提具的選罷法部分條文修正草案，逕付二讀之後，由國民黨黨團負責召集協商。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:06.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:28.002000+08:00","text":"這\n兩個議案都是國民黨的提案，所以國民黨的黨團協商應當是優先進行，可是都還沒有進行到，\n然後就已經提到院長主持的朝野協商，在程序上是已經快轉了一些，就是跳過了黨團協商。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:29.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:38.112000+08:00","text":"當\n然大家知道選罷法的爭議性是需要好好來討論的，任何一個程序都不應當來僭越。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:39.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:52.624000+08:00","text":"所以是想要\n請教院長，我覺得在程序上今天不應當在這裡就直接進入您主持的協商，依程序該怎麼進行就\n怎麼進行，我先在程序上做這樣的表述，我沒有進入實質條文的討論。謝謝。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:52.624000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:53.873000+08:00","text":"思瑤委員，我們有前例，到時候我會再跟你報告，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:53.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:55.122000+08:00","text":"有前例的，不是沒有前例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:55.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:15:56.371000+08:00","text":"請台\n灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:15:56.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:16:36.415000+08:00","text":"選罷法每個政黨大概有不一樣的立場，台灣民眾黨柯文哲主席之前公開受訪的時候就\n講了，第一個，我們並不贊成去調高目前選罷法投票的門檻，但是在連署的階段去真正能夠確\n保反映連署人的意志，而不是被連署，樁腳名冊抄來抄去，這樣的亂象必須要被遏止。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:16:37.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:16:46.424000+08:00","text":"我覺得\n今天黨團協商老實講大概就是看能不能有共識，但看起來是不會有共識，不會有共識的話，我\n們接下來就按照程序來進行。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:16:46.424000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:16:48.263333+08:00","text":"我們先請部會首長說明一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:16:48.263333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:16:50.102667+08:00","text":"先請中選會的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:16:50.102667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:16:51.942000+08:00","text":"我們現在是先講程序問題，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:16:51.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:25.199000+08:00","text":"其實負責召集協商的黨團要先協商一下，過個水，然後院長來協商，我們都知道一定\n盍各言爾志，像兩黨都不一樣，傅崐萁傅總召剛才也談到所謂四分之一太低的問題，我現在還\n搞不清楚國民黨到底是哪個案子。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:27.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:37.610000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤委員剛才談的也不無道理，其實我們今天都知道，將\n來所有程序就照程序來處理，大家不會有爭辯。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:38.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:45.276000+08:00","text":"下禮拜國民黨黨團召集一下，假如沒有結論就\n送來，我們再協商一次，該處理就處理也無所謂，這樣可能大家比較順，以後都是建立一個慣\n例，不管順利、不順利，或有沒有結論，大家都心知肚明，但是程序正義還是守住比較好一點\n。","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:45.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:46.276000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:46.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:47.276000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯總召發言，接下來請傅崐萁總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:46.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:39.697000+08:00","text":"我要特別謝謝民進黨團執政者所不斷提出要符合程序正義、要符合議事規則，國民黨\n團在這裡清楚表達，我們今天由院長召集對於選罷法的協商，是非常的清楚，完全符合議事規\n則，而且是 2016 年民進黨籍的院長蘇嘉全先生所訂下來的，不管是院會的協商還是委員會的協\n協 25\n商，只要有經過其中的任何一次就可以交院會來處理。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:41.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:55.787000+08:00","text":"今天是由我們把這個層級拉高了，就由\n院長來召集，因為這是逕付二讀的案子，而且修正的條文……謝謝柯總召關心，我待會特別送\n一份到您辦公室。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:56.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:23.256000+08:00","text":"我們提出來的案子就很簡單，門檻沒有調整，但是要確實保護國民行使權益\n不會被冒用、盜用、濫用，我們是保護全國國人行使公民的權利，所以我們是要把這個連署明\n確化，並沒有調整門檻。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:23.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:33.201000+08:00","text":"所以現在不管是國民黨也好，我們是負責任的提出這樣的一個法案，\n而且也經過正常的程序，請院長來提出召集。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:34.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:54.559000+08:00","text":"如果柯總召覺得這個討論是不是可以更充分，本\n席尊重，沒有問題，請院長辛苦一點，我們再找個時間再……掉頭髮，我知道，看得出來。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:56.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:56.940000+08:00","text":"院長，我講一下，很簡短。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:58.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:04.386000+08:00","text":"剛才大家都很善意啦，傅總召講得也很善意，但是我為什\n麼講說四分之一？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:04.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:10.230000+08:00","text":"其實你自己剛才也有講到四分之一的問題，所以我不知道你的版本怎樣？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:10.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:18.797000+08:00","text":"所\n謂程序正義，大家共同遵守，但是從剛才講的從蘇院長開始，你說不管委員會或院會有朝野協\n商就可以，不對！","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:19.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:27.983000+08:00","text":"已經委員會完畢以後，即便過水也沒關係，至少要院長主持朝野協商，這個\n是我們大家要共同遵守的。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:28.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:40.350000+08:00","text":"既然表面上現在要國民黨過水一下再來的話，下次朝野協商時，我\n們希望將內政委員會的委員也找來，大家談一談，不行就表決嘛，就照程序處理。","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:40.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:49.775000+08:00","text":"因為關心這\n個法案的人倒是不少，除了三長外，相關內政委員會的委員，我們也把他們請來，召委等等都\n請來，這樣比較完整一點。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:51.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:53.397000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召發言，接下來請黃國昌總召，請發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:55.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:58.340000+08:00","text":"主委跟部長請準備，等一下請表達一\n下立場，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:01.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:21.390000+08:00","text":"剛剛都在講程序性的事情，台灣民眾黨黨團覺得程序性的事情就按照之前的議事慣例\n走就好了啦，到底是不是有違反程序正義，恐怕也不是任何一個黨團說了就算，所以就這個部\n分，就看院長裁示，看要不要請秘書長跟大家說明一下？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:25.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:27.872000+08:00","text":"李主委跟劉部長有沒有什麼意見要表達？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:27.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:28.872000+08:00","text":"讓他們下次再來，我們現在在談的程序問題比較重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:28.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:29.872000+08:00","text":"不是，既然部長到場了，我要尊重一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:29.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:30.872000+08:00","text":"立法院是很講禮貌的地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:30.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:31.872000+08:00","text":"李主委請發言\n，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:28.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:31.213000+08:00","text":"我們尊重貴院的程序，如果是要再另外走程序的話，那我們就先不提供意見。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:31.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:31.893000+08:00","text":"非常好，謝謝李主委，劉部長請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:50.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:01.125000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長跟三個黨團的幹部，我來稍微講一下，這一次朝野黨團協商的部分，大概就\n是集中在傅崐萁委員跟許宇甄委員提案裡面所提的三個爭點。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:01.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:19.519000+08:00","text":"有關第一個爭點就是罷免提議跟\n連署應附身分證影本的規定，我們會認為這在個資跟資安上面會有一些疑慮，而且涉及選務執\n行的層面，這個要多討論。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:19.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:43.577000+08:00","text":"第二個爭點是在於說，罷免提議人跟連署人應該填寫國民身分證的\n發證日期，一般我們所知道，國民身分證大家都會背出身分證號碼，但是發證日期大概非一般\n民眾記憶可以常常知道的，所以也會增加一些困擾，但是我們也是尊重大院在處理時要不要處\n理的妥適性。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:44.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:10.728000+08:00","text":"第三個是要求中選會要建置一個電子系統，提供罷免領銜人徵求提議，我們認為\n在罷免案的提議人數已經大幅下修，而且上一次修改公職選罷法第七十六條是在 112 年的 6月 9\n協 26\n號，現在如果臨時再做一些更動的話，會影響未來在選務跟選政上面執行上的困擾。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:10.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:12.449000+08:00","text":"以上簡單\n跟各位委員報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:13.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:16.992000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉部長，也謝謝司法院列席的各位官員，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:17.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:20.595000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我唸一下今天協商的結\n論，大家聽聽看。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:21.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:23.176000+08:00","text":"一、選罷法，我們就請各黨團繼續溝通。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:25.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:27.858000+08:00","text":"二、今天我們協商到此為止。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:28.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:38.901000+08:00","text":"三、\n電價配比專案報告已經完成簽字，我們 10 月 29 號（星期二）當天上午進行，還有當天我們不\n再處理臨時提案。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:39.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:41.402000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:41.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:42.442000+08:00","text":"沒有的話，我們就現在散會，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:43.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:46.043000+08:00","text":"再一次感謝各位列席的部會首長，也謝謝各黨團幹部，我們散會。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:46.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:47.685857+08:00","text":"散會（12時 23分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}