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等一下我們再進入我們的朝野協商見"},{"start":2000.726,"end":2023.179,"text":"跟各位黨編報告一下因為我們這個會期是預算會期當然除了處理明年度的114年的總預算還有足跡行政院所送來這個前瞻預算還有這個追加預算就今天我們要討論的這個預算的案題目之外我們還有一個今年度的113年度的附屬單位預算因為在今年的"},{"start":2024.259,"end":2042.796,"text":"5月初的時候才把這個各組的報告回到院會宣讀完那時候因為剛好遇到整個內閣改組新的行政院長左院長來了所以我們又開始進行左院長的那個第一會期的施政諮詢所以一直牽連到現在那因為這個預算會期"},{"start":2044.457,"end":2059.147,"text":"我們就要把這個113年的復屬單位去完成他的審議的過程那過去復屬單位的話我們都會回到院會之後呢就訂個時間大概是一個禮拜到十天讓各黨團委員針對這個復屬單位預算去提案"},{"start":2063.29,"end":2090.923,"text":"提案送到裁委會去整理整理好之後再拿給各黨團還有相關部會去參考各部會會去跟提案的黨團委員去做溝通溝通到一定程度之後我們院長就會開始針對附屬單位來進行密集協商密集協商通常都是連續好幾天的一個朝野協商我們這邊有一個草稿請同仁先給各黨邊做參考原則上我們是說"},{"start":2092.023,"end":2118.441,"text":"到10月30號作為提案的截止時間因為今天是21號所以給9天的時間讓各黨團來提看大家針對這個提案時間是不是充足是不是夠然後呢提案完之後呢交給財委會去做整理那我們給他兩天的時間也就是說他在10月31跟11月1號去做整理整理好之後呢給各黨團看也給部會看然後部會拿到那些提案呢會來跟各黨團做雙向溝通"},{"start":2120.422,"end":2143.837,"text":"沟通到一定程度的時候呢院長會指定密集協商的時間所以這個草稿的部分呢我們請院長唸一下然後大家看一下如果可以的話我們看要修改還是就直接要簽字都可以那我們請院長宣讀一下這個草稿好謝謝各位黨團幹部因為我們這個附屬單位預算我們還是要盡快盡早的我們開始審查"},{"start":2146.339,"end":2166.65,"text":"我們現在黨團幹部先稍待一下我們只有兩樣決定事項一、各黨團10月30日星期三下午5點前將《113年度中央政府總預算案．附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分之提案》送至財政委員會會診預時不再受案"},{"start":2167.355,"end":2194.441,"text":"二、財政委員會收案之後﹐交各該委員會整理復印相關提案後﹐於11月1日星期五下午5點之前﹐提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考﹐請行政部門先後向提案委員及黨團進行雙向說明﹐落實溝通﹐以利後續進行密集協商只有這兩點﹐各位黨團幹部有意見要﹐好,請黃國昌總召請"},{"start":2197.753,"end":2222.882,"text":"謝謝院長我就是為了辦法避免誤會可能有一些背景要說明清楚剛剛院長所那個也很感謝院長去承擔你不應該承擔的東西為什麼說院長承擔你你不應該承擔的東西113年附屬單位預算這個是上一屆國會本來在去年就應該要處理完畢的事嗎"},{"start":2224.471,"end":2253.428,"text":"但目前都還沒有處理完嘛所以才會交給新的國會來處理嘛這個我覺得第一個前提啊要先把它講清楚113年附屬單位預算上一屆的國會該處理沒有處理那我相信他們該花的錢到今年現在已經幾月了十月了嘛該花的錢也都花的差不多嘛那我相信這些附屬單位也沒有因此而停擺嘛"},{"start":2254.349,"end":2275.683,"text":"都還是正常的在運作嘛這個是第二件事情那第三件事情上一屆國會該處理的附屬單位預算沒有處理完那我們這屆國會沒有辦法遇到這樣的狀況要把它承擔下來要處理也沒有問題他只不過說就是說因為今天是幾號"},{"start":2277.734,"end":2306.994,"text":"今天是21號那壓30天以前要黨團再提案出來時間上是不是有這麼趕可不可以給黨團再多一點點時間是不是可以請那個院長看一下時程以後再採視一下因為等於是上一屆國會該處理而沒有處理完的事情到今年10月底的時候突然要各個黨團在10月底以前把案子"},{"start":2307.914,"end":2329.075,"text":"送出來這個時間上面是不是有要好好審預算還是只是這個其實過個水意思意思我覺得這個可能也會影響到社會大眾對立法院在審附屬單位預算的時候到底是認真在審還是在半加加久只是過個水可能會有一些"},{"start":2330.516,"end":2351.007,"text":"觀感上面的問題那最後一個我只是要確認就是說因為附屬單位預算有很多是上一屆國會的委員他們所提出來的一些案子那新的國會那些舊的案子是不是就不處理了完全以黨團所提出的新案來當作處理的基準要合在一起處理"},{"start":2352.657,"end":2373.475,"text":"OK 好好好好那就時間上啦齁我們都尊重院長這邊時程上的安排我只是說有沒有可能再多一點點時間如果院長覺得沒有辦法就10月底以前一定要處理那我們也就盡量配合尊重院長才藝術 嘿 好謝謝國務長總召發言接下來吳思堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":2377.186,"end":2401.121,"text":"謝謝主席我非常同意要把今天處理的這個案子謝謝院長先排定了就是113年的就是附屬單位的預算就是營業跟非營業部分那其實到底要講清楚說明白確實每一屆每一年的預算都是要在法定期程就是年底完成但是呢每一屆每一年都會優先審議公務預算"},{"start":2403.442,"end":2407.928,"text":"然後讓附屬單位的預算是隔一個新年之後的"},{"start":2409.382,"end":2438.414,"text":"單數會期來處理當然餘法這樣盡量不要可是從以前到現在像斯民委員很有經驗也點頭從以前到現在也都是這樣要導正很好我們這一屆來做示範都要導正這也就應驗了我們現在必須即刻來審查114年度的總預算如果民眾黨委員認為這為什麼這一屆要承擔上一屆沒有該盡的義務我們來承擔那我們也不能把自己又"},{"start":2439.565,"end":2439.885,"text":"現任國會每黨都有責任"},{"start":2468.686,"end":2495.809,"text":"每一黨都有責任而現在國會的多數黨是國民黨跟民眾黨的委員所以道理要釐清清楚所以回來我們身為立法委員就應當盡量在法定期程完成預算的審議從這個議案為什麼拖到現在才要排就可以再次驗證我們的114年的總預算不能再拖了"},{"start":2496.63,"end":2523.876,"text":"不能再拖了不能再重蹈覆轍了所以也謝謝院長剛剛國常總召說您承擔了上一屆遺留下來了承擔您不應承擔的那也您委屈了但是院長該承擔的責任是現在您的責任就是現在送在我們桌子上的114年的國家政府總預算案這就是院長要承擔我們三黨都要承擔的所以我們也同意說趕快來排審那這個期程"},{"start":2525.836,"end":2526.336,"text":"謝謝吳思耀幹事長 接下來請王宏威首席副書長請發言"},{"start":2547.995,"end":2548.015,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":2568.948,"end":2596.883,"text":"113年國營事業及附屬單位預算到現在為止立法院沒有進行審查那麼我們沒有任何一家國營事業因此而關門也沒有任何一家國營事業因此而不發薪水所以這也就是其實印證了那麼現在講的很多的事情其實是違反預算的一個常態運作我想這樣的一個原則必先一定要先講清楚"},{"start":2597.823,"end":2602.166,"text":"第二部分按照慣例雖然拖過12月31日去年12月31日應該要把國際事業預算審完然後到了隔年應該在上個會期來做審查不過因為我也都在財委會財委會有兩位召委民進黨也有郭國文委員"},{"start":2626.479,"end":2628.92,"text":"財委會也沒有看到郭國文召委去排案我覺得這一點 剛才講說各政黨都有責任但是我覺得是不是我們吳斯堯幹事長把這個責任好像又把他甩鍋到了在野黨"},{"start":2655.026,"end":2661.409,"text":"也就是如果你覺得預算很重要為什麼民進黨當召委的財委會沒有去排案呢還要延到我們到這個會期來做處理這是第二個第三個就是說那麼我們也願意做處理其實我們對於預算都是非常非常善意的"},{"start":2676.036,"end":2680.077,"text":"我們也願意來積極的審查我也在講說其實我們作為在野黨我們最想審預算因為不審預算沒有辦法去刪除這些浮邊亂邊的 爛邊的預算所以有關於剛才我們所提到的是不是在10月30號之前下午點之前交到財委會會診"},{"start":2701.821,"end":2728.801,"text":"因為這時間確實有一些些趕是不是能夠卓宇再延長個幾天我想我們也大家都很願意配合大家一起來審查預算但是也給我們相關的委員們一個足夠的時間讓他們來做一些審視這樣的預算審查應該會更周延以上謝謝謝謝王慧雲的發言哈吾斯委員請繼續二輪發言"},{"start":2732.642,"end":2756.111,"text":"謝謝我想要補充說明我們同意趕快來撥破榜把之前該寫的作業各黨沒有交沒有寫我們大家趕快來處理它也希望未來不要再發生預算該審而沒有審的狀況但是剛剛有委員提到說你看上個會期或者是上一屆該審的那沒有審那你看這個國營市也沒有倒也沒有關門"},{"start":2757.435,"end":2779.551,"text":"因為預算法的授權跟規定是不一樣的預算法第54條對於總預算如果不能依其完成的補救辦法有所明定會影響到的就非常清楚我們已經講了非常久的對於新興資本支出跟新增計畫是完全受影響所以今年如果沒有"},{"start":2780.311,"end":2808.9,"text":"明年114年的國家政府總預算這些受影響的新興基本的新增計畫就高達2050億這對於國家政府照顧人民很多重要的新興建設當然有影響那國營事業為什麼相對看起來每一屆都會拖過法定期程的下一個會期再來審議呢那確實是過去到現在立委都有這樣子不太好的習慣就沒有一併在法定期程完成"},{"start":2810.06,"end":2838.741,"text":"所以會有這樣事後再來補作業、寫作業是依據剛剛預算法54條有講到的國營事業的部分可以依預算法88條的規定來辦理大家可以看看預算法88條它確實賦予了國營事業這些附屬單位相對於公務機關更寬鬆的彈性它可以先行做一些支用跟調整但這都不應該"},{"start":2839.895,"end":2858.609,"text":"我要再次強調該審預算．法定期程．立法委員．不分黨派都要去善盡我們的責任都不應該．不應當再繼續發生所以回過頭來我們現在播啪啪把上一屆沒有寫的作業或者是上一屆沒寫的作業延到上個會期我們就該寫了大家都沒有寫那這個會期趕快來補"},{"start":2860.67,"end":2886.048,"text":"現在在我們眼前的作業今年度的作業就是要審四大預算114年的公務預算還有前瞻預算還有台電的追加減預算還有114年度的國營失業的預算不要再重蹈覆轍該審就審審預算是立法委員的職責沒有誰甩過誰如果我們都不審才是我們對於人民沒有辦法交代"},{"start":2888.222,"end":2910.608,"text":"謝謝吳世耀委員二人發言那綜合剛才幾位黨團的發言我想我們把這兩點結論的時間做個小小的調整就是各黨團本來我第一次念是10月30號星期三下午點前改為各黨團於10月6號星期三下午點前我們加七天的時間加113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":2912.448,"end":2939.426,"text":"按附屬單位預算．營業及非營業部分．送至財政委員會那這樣的話請問一下三位黨團有沒有其他的寶貴意見好OKOKOK好第二個的話財政委員會收案之後那各該委員會整理復印相關提案後於11月8號下午5點前提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考"},{"start":2941.15,"end":2958.705,"text":"請行政部門先行向天安委及黨團進行雙向說明我們延到11月8號好不好好那我們先把這個先確定好好謝謝OK好請各位黨團幹部麻煩一下大家簽個字"},{"start":2968.502,"end":2986.438,"text":"現在我們進行繼續研商有關:「114年度中央政府總預算．含附屬單位預算．綜計表．營業及非營業部分．中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算．113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案．民進黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2988.462,"end":3004.849,"text":"那現在我們正式進入我們今天下午協商的主題我們先請提案的委員民進黨黨團蔡易瑜幹事長請發言謝謝院長我是書記長幹事長是施耀我想我們在討論114年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":3015.578,"end":3036.431,"text":"那當然這個總預算我們知道以現在今天已經是10月21號所以這樣推算起來我們只剩下兩個月再加10天的時間可以在今年度來討論總預算所以我們還要再計算副委那副委後到各個委員會然後再排審"},{"start":3038.792,"end":3060.325,"text":"後面的時間已經壓縮到幾乎是最緊繃的狀態了所以我還是會覺得說今天協商然後有一個好的方向也就是不管是國民黨或者是民眾黨不要把這三個事情跟總預算完全把它連起來"},{"start":3061.298,"end":3070.524,"text":"那事實上我們在討論了這一個進法補償的時候我們也不斷的去跟在野黨的兩個政黨我們去強調"},{"start":3074.439,"end":3100.051,"text":"憲法權力分立事實上這個權力分立他所接觸的一個精神就在4至391號他講的很清楚391號裡面不斷的去揭示說因為行政行政他就必須要有承擔政策的成敗如果我們的這個立法的一個作為勒他導致政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以建立"},{"start":3101.084,"end":3116.233,"text":"尚非憲法之所許他這個文字上就講得很清楚就是說行政機關編列預算所以預算的執行會有好也有壞如果好的話人民會行政機關怕破啊"},{"start":3116.986,"end":3143.224,"text":"如果執行的不好自然行政機關要擔負執行的效率不好或執行的成效不佳要擔負這樣的責任這就是責任政治的一個最基礎的ABC那我們這一次之所以在進法補償的這個課題內那我們會有所堅持就是說因為在不管我們去看預算法我們去看財政紀律法甚至我們去看這個"},{"start":3145.786,"end":3165.065,"text":"財政收支的劃分法事實上這三個法律裡面它都是涵蓋著憲法第70條立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之提議那不得為這個增加之提議的不管是在預算案裡面不得增加你也不可以用法律案然後來"},{"start":3168.307,"end":3183.273,"text":"來頓入法律案裡面然後一樣是去對於行政機關的預算有所為增加之提議所以你來看不管是我剛講的預算法91條或者是財政紀律法第5條或者剛剛的財政"},{"start":3185.654,"end":3210.359,"text":"這個財政收支劃分法的38之一 它都有一個很重要的就是說 領地法委員所提的法律案你增加政府的支出 增加政府稅出或減少稅入者你就應先指明彌補資金之來源 這個是在財政紀律法的文字那在預算法的文字裡 它是說 你要增加政府的支出的時候"},{"start":3211.039,"end":3238.838,"text":"你應先徵詢行政院的意見指明資金之來源所以重點都要指明資金來源我們再看一下財政收支劃分法38之一那38之一內我們知道各級政府立法機關定定法律需增加財政負擔者應先事先籌措經費或於立法時明文規定相對收入來源"},{"start":3240.436,"end":3266.096,"text":"所以這個文字上都是記載的這樣所以我們在講到進法補償的時候我們就會說因為這個部分行政機關他是沒有同意這個6萬那現在行政機關願意編列4萬卓院長也說願意編列4萬剩餘的部分是不是可以用基金這邊大家再來討論那這也是一個要籌措裁員的一個方式"},{"start":3267.408,"end":3275.752,"text":"但是現在看起來不管是國民黨或者是民眾黨這邊對於我們這樣提出我們希望解決問題讓總預算趕快進入討論我們這樣提出的這樣一個對岸那看起來"},{"start":3282.995,"end":3301.488,"text":"在野黨不買單這個不買單的一個結果就是我們的總預算將在這邊那我覺得這個將在這邊實在不是一件好的狀況我是覺得說我們是要解決問題嘛我們這一次我們把這個進法補償做了一個處理之後我們未來讓它進入法制化"},{"start":3302.108,"end":3331.207,"text":"所謂這個法制化我想不管是涉及老人的福利的一個津貼或者是農民的津貼他們現在都是法制化每4年隨著CPI隨著指數來4年檢討一次所以我們也是希望說這個禁法補償現在條文也有法制化那我們就讓它進入法制化未來照著整個符合財政紀律法的一個精神之下然後讓這個禁法補償原住民都可以得到他應該要有的一個補償"},{"start":3332.648,"end":3352.459,"text":"以上是我的一個建議謝謝蔡玉瑜書記長國民黨團跟臺灣民眾黨團要不要一輪發言之後我們請主席講說明主席講說明之後再請原住民列席的委員講話好不好那國民黨團請林思明書記長謝謝我們院長今天聽到我們蔡玉瑜書記長的一個提議我想"},{"start":3360.106,"end":3375.781,"text":"蔡書長你的意思就是很明確就是說現在行政院就是供預算編列為4萬塊然後另外的2萬塊就是由基金裡面去支應再找裁員到現在還沒找到"},{"start":3379.001,"end":3391.1,"text":"我想我們一個重點就是說這個《進法補償條例》它是誰提案的因為這跟過去很不一樣這是由兩位民進黨的委員提案"},{"start":3391.96,"end":3418.512,"text":"那行政院對於這個法案的當初整個我們三讀通過那我們看到不管是前委員或吳立豪委員他都說他有跟他們民進黨黨團報告也有跟行政院做多次的溝通所以行政院對於是不是這個條例把他提升到這個一倍到6萬塊行政院完全了若指掌啊你都知道的所以在知道情況之下讓這個"},{"start":3420.186,"end":3444.409,"text":"法案的財務來源你應該提早,及早你就應該知道說你要編在哪裡了你就已經心知肚明了嘛你不能等到三讀通過之後你才告訴我們說你也沒提復議那三讀也沒有提其他的一個動作你才去擋你才在預算你不去編說我只能編到4塊錢我想這很說不過去"},{"start":3445.39,"end":3471.547,"text":"那我最後我是聽到議員講說你們認為這個法制化你們也同意現在進法補償條例讓它法制化跟過去一樣過去好多好多件也是我們不管是老人這個福利津貼這部分我們都是經過立法然後才去編列這個相關的預算讓它法制化所以法制化這件事情大家是沒有意見的沒有意見那既然沒有意見我們認為說那你的預算要怎麼編我想"},{"start":3473.07,"end":3473.73,"text":"臺灣民眾黨發言陳主席長請準備"},{"start":3504.762,"end":3521.037,"text":"謝謝院長其實協商那麼多次啦今天再來協商我們坐在這邊基本上是要解決問題啦不是把之前全部講的話再重新講一次沒有意思啦我的表達我的立場是要解決問題不是要來吵架的"},{"start":3522.038,"end":3541.51,"text":"所以我簡短的講對於剛剛參與委員發言的內容我竟表不同意我接下來就審略非常多次我上次全部都講完了4.391在處理什麼預算案跟法律案有什麼不一樣你要提到說法治化現在就法治化啦"},{"start":3542.714,"end":3569.934,"text":"現在就法治化啦阿你怎麼一方面主張法治化一方面又主張現在的條文是違憲的更何況這違憲的條文還是你們民主進步黨的立委所提出來的欸一堆民進黨的立委全部都連署欸阿你們當初提案的時候怎麼不大喊說不要提這個阿這個違憲阿這個不能提阿等到提出來了以後三讀通過了現在翻桌喔不想認帳阿"},{"start":3572.048,"end":3583.079,"text":"不好意思這樣子的論述我們沒辦法接受但為了要節省時間期間我接下來的話就不要再講了那具體的來講其實今天要來協商是要看我們的行政部門"},{"start":3584.517,"end":3603.882,"text":"到底提什麼東西出來因為我們對於昨天卓榮泰院長在臉書上面發文說去餐廳點餐其實我看的是蠻傻眼的啦因為我當初知道院長是基於一片善意所以我們人都去了嘛只是搞了一個多小時什麼具體的內容都沒有談"},{"start":3605.523,"end":3625.204,"text":"然後結果連後續的臉書發文都在講餐廳點餐的事情不要一天到晚想吃飯的事情我們解決問題會比較重要所以我今天是來聽我的行政部門他們所提出來的具體的建議是什麼因為我還是要回來台灣是一個法治國"},{"start":3626.684,"end":3644.707,"text":"原住民依照立法院三讀通過的法律針對他們的特別犧牲向國家請求補償的時候他公法上的請求權就是一公頃6萬元絕對不是像行政院院長用喊價的一公頃不可能是4萬元"},{"start":3645.848,"end":3662.717,"text":"法條上面就寫6萬元公法上的請求權依照法律行使怎麼可能是我們在這邊喊價就去影響大人民依照三讀通過生效的法律他在公法上面的請求權的數額跟他的內容這是絕對不可能的事情"},{"start":3663.797,"end":3684.593,"text":"要審預算的這件事情就立法委員的責任沒有問題但把預算編好這是行政部門的責任所以我還是希望今天大家不要坐在這邊再繼續在那邊做政治上面的攻防各自有什麼話想講回去開記者會沒有問題我是希望今天的協商"},{"start":3686.195,"end":3711.496,"text":"看行政部門有具體的提案出來問題要怎麼解決這最重要我相信這也是韓院長當初苦心的招集三個黨團幫卓榮泰出來邀約希望能夠把問題解決最大的出發點跟用意謝謝兩位原住民的委員請稍微等一下我們先請行政院主計長來請陳主計長請"},{"start":3718.123,"end":3727.915,"text":"委員長、秘書長、各黨團委員、同仁大家午安我這裡針對這個案子因為進化補償這個方案原理會在114年度有盡力編列進化補償28億元"},{"start":3738.206,"end":3756.718,"text":"113年他增加7億也就是有達34%那本案如果黨團的一個協商或是結論那這個部分將來原民會要執行這個部分如果有經費不敷的部分我們本總處就全力來協助辦理以上一個說明"},{"start":3761.755,"end":3775.345,"text":"主席長您可不可以再說一下因為第一個他原來預算如果可以支應不管是從總預算來支應還是由基金來支應將來這個經會有不敷的部分我們在115年度來協助來補充以上"},{"start":3786.431,"end":3805.203,"text":"因為這個還必須要看那個袁明慧他本身那個總預算的一個編列其實他基建的情形可以容納的一個程度他如果全數可以容納這個部分有必須要將來需要再做補充的意思這個部分我們再來協助他補充"},{"start":3814.451,"end":3819.777,"text":"我想我們私底下我們要不要討論一下好不好我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":4686.562,"end":4712.559,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部請坐行政部門各位列席首長請坐那綜合我們吳思瑤幹事長發言 高金樹委員請準備"},{"start":4715.815,"end":4740.918,"text":"謝謝院長剛剛休息時間其實大家很想方設法一起來找出可以解的答案可以解的方向那我不知道是不是還能夠說服有機會說服再次說明如果說因為今天週一那明天成委會又要排週五的院會的預算能不能夠列入案子"},{"start":4741.687,"end":4770.373,"text":"如果今天再沒有共識不管是明天的成委會或是週五的院會都可能讓總預算繼續被阻擋附位審查可能就是第6次我上一次協商已經非常清楚的跟各位報告從以前到現在每個會期總預算會因應那個會期開始朝野的氣氛或是有其他的個案會有一些耽擱但從來沒有拖過第二次會第三次會如果我們再不決定"},{"start":4771.533,"end":4795.755,"text":"大家再不妥協就是第6次黨下總預算這個就是史上的惡例那行政部門跟執政黨團最想要去突破的也是我們一直認為萬萬不可的那個結在哪裡就是我們希望立法部門不要用立法的方式來增加政府預算之支出"},{"start":4796.716,"end":4804.811,"text":"如果要經過立法這方式來增加政府預算支支出他必須回到預算法91條他是跟行政部門徵詢"},{"start":4807.747,"end":4827.636,"text":"討論有共識就如同老農津貼在2011年或2055、2005年曾經由立委先提案但是行政部門後續他也認同了他也提出對案經過行政立法對於某一個支出都合意要增加的狀況之下來進行"},{"start":4829.75,"end":4830.07,"text":"修法"},{"start":4846.523,"end":4866.201,"text":"現在變3萬變6萬這個過程大家都很清楚的知道也許在野黨的同仁們很想替原住民族增加3到6萬我們也可以理解可是行政部門希望法律上真的行政部門認為這樣就是侵犯了行政權編列預算"},{"start":4867.972,"end":4869.894,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4888.891,"end":4910.558,"text":"高於當初大家原始的設定那我們能不能夠來修法的部分大家有共識跟行政部門磋商把法律本身回到一個合憲行政權的預算編列權沒有被立法權因為立委單一的修法而凌駕而取代"},{"start":4912.055,"end":4934.356,"text":"這個事行政部門一直在堅持的合法合憲的解決那如果這個部分大家有共識那當然已經大家爭取了這麼久的好114年度的6萬塊那行政部門可以去想方設法用什麼方式來做這個當初在修法過程可能是"},{"start":4935.742,"end":4935.842,"text":"主席"},{"start":4954.36,"end":4954.58,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4977.811,"end":4977.971,"text":"主席"},{"start":4998.265,"end":5015.33,"text":"這當中還有時間大家可以智慧解決我們今天站在這裡就是希望總預算可以朝野同意讓他交付審查只要交付審查未來在審查原民會的預算的時候委員要做什麼樣的權宜主張都可以"},{"start":5016.485,"end":5037.508,"text":"只要交付審查﹖很多對於有其他的公糧收購﹖或者是健保點子﹖都可以透過行使預算的審查權﹖去要求行政部門再做說明﹖再做調整﹖只要讓預算交付審查﹖如果今天再沒有結論﹖就是第6檔了"},{"start":5038.908,"end":5039.228,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5056.127,"end":5075.561,"text":"立法委員真的切莫以修法來增加政府預算沒有跟政府預算這個都不用再講財政制度法、預算法、憲法70條財政收支劃分法都講得再清楚也不過了所以我最終一句這句話也許大家很不想聽可是我們都要面對"},{"start":5077.062,"end":5101.33,"text":"立法部門都要行政院依法行政那我們立法委員自己也要依法來修法大家真的各退一步讓總預算往前走吧進法補償是明年9月才要發放的先讓總預算復違吧後續的很多部分大家都是有智慧的其實剛剛也有個復案在院長的腦子裡"},{"start":5102.967,"end":5103.767,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的說明接下來請高金委員請發言"},{"start":5120.45,"end":5136.998,"text":"謝謝院長吳幹事長說得好像很有理可是我覺得真的實在是胡亂講一遍我為什麼說胡亂講一遍呢就是六萬塊是你的吳立華委員跟陳穎委員的提案"},{"start":5138.079,"end":5153.252,"text":"當時你也是連署人為什麼當時就不違憲為什麼當時就沒有違預算法為什麼當時就沒有這些然後不要忘記喔520 卓院長就已經就任了喔5月20號到我們總統6月24號公告已經那麼長的時間你們的預算是8月底送進來"},{"start":5162.981,"end":5189.118,"text":"所以這個當中將近三個月的時間你們可以想方設法這是我要講的第二個請院長再請我們主計長因為剛剛主計長沒有講清楚然後也沒有透過麥克風講到底行政院現在的決議是什麼我才能夠因為剛剛在那邊辯論講了都沒有透過麥克風社會大眾都沒有聽到我是不是可以請主計長來"},{"start":5191.88,"end":5215.332,"text":"說明一下今天行政院端出的誠意到底是什麼東西因為我們今天面對的是行政院提出的方案不是這幾個立法委員或者三長五幹事長在這邊提的東西這個今天我們立法院要面對的是行政院行政院要面對的是立法院在立法院三讀通過的案子"},{"start":5215.592,"end":5215.892,"text":"政經財委員請準備"},{"start":5241.499,"end":5261.632,"text":"主席長就在我們政經事務委員發言完畢之後,麻煩您再次說明,謝謝好,那個,好,那我還是想表達一個事情啦齁,第一件事情是說,其實我想高靖遠很清楚,就像上個會期其實在海洋保育法的時候,我們其實那時候也一起覺得怎麼樣讓原住民族的權利"},{"start":5262.152,"end":5282.768,"text":"其實在修法的過程裡面其實可以更加的完善跟完整其實我一直以來都非常非常支持原住民的權益尤其是計法補償的議題其實涉及到很多這個山坡地的保育的問題所以某個部分來講我自己也很支持在計法補償的這個經費上面應該是要往上增加的這部分就政策的目的跟理念上面我也是支持的"},{"start":5283.348,"end":5305.61,"text":"那經過了幾輪的討論我覺得大家應該可以感到其實執政黨這邊我們是有想盡辦法想要去往大家中間可以接受的部分去邁進的我講一點我們現在完全知道包括在黨的委員不管是國民黨委員、民眾黨委員甚至是高金委員或鄭天才委員其實大家非常非常care的事情其實當然就是希望進法補償的金額"},{"start":5308.598,"end":5319.085,"text":"那因為各種原住民族權利的問題希望能夠往上加尤其是希望加到6萬我們完全理解也聽進去這件事情了"},{"start":5320.322,"end":5347.17,"text":"在聽進去這件事情上面但確實從執政黨團的角度包括行政院角度你們care的事情我們聽進去了但我們care的事情執政黨care的事情包括行政部門尤其care的事情最care的事情其實就是怎麼在立法跟行政的權力分立原則之下找到一個適宜的法治形式跟執行形式這件事情是我們care的事情"},{"start":5348.143,"end":5368.91,"text":"所以我們剛剛一直在想的事情是怎麼把在黨委員們在意的事情最在意核心的事情放到桌上裡面來充分考慮而我們在意的事情也希望在黨委員們可以充分考慮如果我們可以找到一個方式把在黨委員在意的核心的事情充分考慮就好我們在想的是這件事情"},{"start":5374.778,"end":5403.829,"text":"所以坦白說我知道高金委員對於基金的運用的形式或者不一定一定運用基金的形式但我認為現在尤其是行政院他們也是願意去設想怎麼能夠在這個大家希望進法補償基金在網上加的做法可能有A做法B做法C包括剛剛主席長其實有提了幾個做法其實我想大家都聽到包括我們坐在這一排的執政黨的委員執政黨團委員我們也設想去想這件事情可是我們希望說這件事不要"},{"start":5405.421,"end":5416.103,"text":"我不好意思我希望今天我不要講說你好像變成只有一方面一步不讓我們已經在想各種做法了尤其是財務運用的可能性希望能夠把它給打開"},{"start":5417.466,"end":5417.486,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5437.003,"end":5465.606,"text":"我覺得我們是有機會可以往中間走但現在怎麼樣避免也許這個好像一定非得要堅持什麼那我必須說我知道行政部門現在非得他一定堅持他必須要堅持的事情就是預算權是屬於行政權的在權力分立原則之下這條線他不能破他如果一破了這條線以後未來在行政權的各項處理上我說實話今天在黨的朋友你們接下來也有可能會執政啊"},{"start":5467.042,"end":5467.442,"text":"謝謝洪森岸委員的"},{"start":5494.396,"end":5498.817,"text":"人民最期望的就是政府要依法行政而現在的議題依法行政成為原住民族最卑微的訴求"},{"start":5523.188,"end":5552.363,"text":"我先講這個前提這次的進法補償條例的修正民進黨的立委32個人連署提案32個在野黨的只有19個人要提6萬塊的提6萬條例的修正民進黨32人提案在野黨只有19人"},{"start":5554.571,"end":5579.16,"text":"立法院三讀通過之後行政院如果認為有自愛難行可以依憲法的規定來提復議既然行政院沒有提復議就表示沒有自愛難行這是最基本的也經過賴總統公佈的施行"},{"start":5583.632,"end":5608.421,"text":"而這力量到底高不高上個禮拜柯總召講得非常清楚我也很訝異他知道民國82年啊當初台灣省政府我在台灣省政府服務當初用一個要點就是兩萬塊每公頃兩萬塊民國82年經過了三十幾年"},{"start":5614.261,"end":5631.774,"text":"按照物價指數各方面現在用法律規定而且經過總統公布施行6萬塊還不依法行政也不過是增加15億14到15億的一個經費這是第一個第二個105年以前"},{"start":5641.191,"end":5669.296,"text":"進法補償全部都是用公務預算106年開始開始違法挪用嚴肅民族綜合發展基金嚴肅民族綜合發展基金的收支管理應用辦法的法源是嚴肅民族基本法第18條第18條規定的很清楚綜合發展基金就是作為辦理"},{"start":5671.68,"end":5700.036,"text":"嚴肅民族經濟發展的業務作為創業貸款、經濟貸款、微型貸款等等而且根據行政院送來的嚴肅民族綜合發展基金的預算書明確規定它是依預算法第4條第2項第2款第4目凡付出仍可收回的"},{"start":5701.941,"end":5727.351,"text":"這個基金的用途是凡付出仍可收回就像貸款付出期之後本金可以收回來還有利息禁法補償是付出期收不回來的所以從106年開始做了一個違法的挪用之後到112年度總共違法挪用了50幾億"},{"start":5729.887,"end":5756.748,"text":"所以本席當初跟幾位立委提案當時民進黨是基於多數的在立法院也同意這個決議做預算案的主決議這個違反挪用綜合發展基金是違反預算法違反原住民族基本法也做了決議不可以所以"},{"start":5759.069,"end":5776.798,"text":"113年度就是今年度的預算全部都是用公務預算今年度113年度全部都是用公務預算所以114年度沒有編組少了差不多14到15億"},{"start":5780.475,"end":5804.03,"text":"我上次總質詢的時候提到中華民國有窮到第一個要違法挪用原住民祖宗和發展基金嗎第二個有窮到沒有其他方法很多方法很多方法民國100年了立法院民國100年審查12月12月"},{"start":5809.227,"end":5837.386,"text":"2號民國100年12月2號民國100年12月2號立法院做了一個結議要求行政院修正預算書修正預算多少165億行政院3天之內就修正了行政院3天之內修正了做什麼使用呢"},{"start":5838.39,"end":5864.353,"text":"第一個老農津貼國民年金還有其他的福利支出為什麼當初會有這個呢就是因為當初民進黨團提案黃總召提過了民國一百年民進黨團當初提案老農津貼從六千變七千"},{"start":5866.334,"end":5870.337,"text":"行政院沒有徵修通過了所以才會有這個三天內現在我們多久了我們從6月4號我們從6月24號總統公佈施行6月24號到現在很多解決的方式可以修正預算"},{"start":5894.807,"end":5897.989,"text":"謝謝正天堂委員接下來請黃國昌總統請發言然後請陳主委長請準備"},{"start":5918.892,"end":5937.851,"text":"簡短的講就是說我再跟院長報告一次我真的希望大家來這邊是聽行政部門提出解決方案各自上面要怎麼樣去詮釋自己過去的行為要怎麼樣詮釋法律各自回去該記者會沒有必要在這邊長篇大論"},{"start":5939.432,"end":5958.111,"text":"因為如果要這樣子下去的話這個協商會很冗長我們是基於善意我都刻意的不要去講那些過去都已經講過的東西但如果在執政黨堅持要這樣子幹的話那各個黨團我就按照這樣子的規格來進行"},{"start":5960.738,"end":5986.18,"text":"問題通通都不要解決了全部都在講以前全部講過的東西這個是第一個我先講原則性的問題那第二個是我剛剛在休息的時候我聽到一個似乎是解決的方案但當初剛沒有開麥克風我怕我聽漏了還是聽錯了"},{"start":5989.537,"end":6004.511,"text":"那所以等一下麻煩行政部門代表行政部門把話說清楚因為有的時候我搞不清楚就在這邊發言到底是代表誰發言代表行政部門發言還是代表立法部門發言"},{"start":6006.463,"end":6022.678,"text":"我真的有時候搞不清楚還是我們現在立委已經兼任行政官員我真的搞不清楚所以等一下請行政官員說明我剛剛聽的有沒有聽錯因為我們的主計長剛剛第一輪的發言藝術性太高"},{"start":6023.539,"end":6040.367,"text":"我完全聽不懂我剛走出去的時候所有的記者都在問說他講什麼我說全程都有直播大家都可以透過直播去觀看你如果透過直播聽不懂那你的情況跟我一模一樣因為我也聽不懂"},{"start":6041.588,"end":6069.631,"text":"我剛剛在沒有開麥克風的時候我聽到的解決方案我把它摘要一下看是不是我有聽錯我可能有聽錯因為有的時候有一些語言包裝在太藝術的發話當中讓大家不了解其正義那來協商就是要請行政部門提出解決方案因為整件事情我先講台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":6070.612,"end":6093.199,"text":"就是要解決問題請你依法編列預算依法行政該編的沒有編你要透過修正你要透過增加我們都沒有問題因為在制度上面本來就是行政部門可以做的嘛那但是我剛剛聽到的解決方案是第一個明年一公頃會按照6萬塊發4萬塊來自公務預算"},{"start":6099.535,"end":6127.346,"text":"2萬塊來自基金這個是第一點那第二點基金因此所挪出去的錢到2026年的時候再想辦法用預算補回去這個剛剛是我聽到的第二點那第三點是要求朝野共同承諾要修法明年要修回去每公頃4萬元那我比較震驚的是第三點"},{"start":6128.871,"end":6139.629,"text":"要修法不要修法各個黨團請你依照法律案正式的程序你要提法律案那你就提你的法律修正案嘛我們到委員會討論嘛到院會討論嘛"},{"start":6142.984,"end":6167.092,"text":"那是不是說今天行政部門所提出來的卓龍漢所謂的善意是要求立法部門切結承諾明年要修法修回去每公頃4萬元我們的行政部門才願意依法明年發放6萬元是不是這個意思等一下請行政部門說清楚講明白因為我剛聽到這個proposal的時候我非常的震驚啊"},{"start":6168.174,"end":6190.675,"text":"我們行政部門的解決方案竟然是試圖要今天在黨團協商的時候要求三個黨團竊結明年要把法律修回去卓榮派他心裡面想要的4萬元那否則是怎麼樣否則你們明年就不按照美工請6萬元發放嗎這是卓榮派心裡面想的嗎"},{"start":6193.069,"end":6199.934,"text":"我覺得有必要啦請行政部門把他們的立場說清楚講明白要不然大家根本都不知道現在到底在討論什麼"},{"start":6214.453,"end":6236.409,"text":"謝謝院長再次為了總預算的事來召集協商我想今天跟上個禮拜四的情況大概是一樣在野黨帶著滿滿的誠意來希望看到行政單位能夠有具體的作為能夠依法來執行國民黨團的立場一向都很清楚我們要求就是要依法"},{"start":6237.406,"end":6266.468,"text":"那剛剛聽到這個主計長其實主計長的說法是蠻清楚的他是說預算他這邊是可以配合的我想他剛剛有發言講得很清楚預算他是可以配合的經費是沒有問題的我想今天就是主要是卓院長他整體的態度跟政策我要再次強調原住民不是來這裡求得各位的執政民進黨的施捨"},{"start":6268.223,"end":6292.653,"text":"這是民進黨自己的委員朝野一致所提出的修法案件也經過立法院三讀通過國民黨不斷強調就是一切要依法要依法如果當時實施以後三讀通過以後總統府公告以後如果行政院覺得事案難行他應該依法提出復議案"},{"start":6294.386,"end":6316.425,"text":"而不是在此時此刻來這裡用寒假的方式6萬違憲4萬補違憲然後再挪用基金的錢然後再來補基金然後再修罰轉回4萬塊這真的是天方夜譚本期今天實在不想講話因為聽不到有什麼新的了無新意"},{"start":6318.636,"end":6319.037,"text":"國民黨再強調一次"},{"start":6348.052,"end":6374.045,"text":"一切只要依法,我們就尊重這是立法院正式三讀通過的法律行政院本來就應該依法編列沒有什麼好討價還價的而且我今天要再強調我們一直focus在進法補償因為他們在這塊土地上近千年在台灣這塊土地上我們當然予以尊重"},{"start":6375.302,"end":6385.822,"text":"他們有的自己的原住民的保留地為什麼不能為什麼不能開發因為國家山林的需要要他們進發那進發給他們補助這也是理所當然"},{"start":6389.011,"end":6407.18,"text":"再過來三黨共同簽字的我們全民健保0.952300萬人的健康雖然今天大家沒有提及我還是要再提醒大家一下如果三黨的共識一致簽署的主決議院會也正式通過這是有法律的約束力"},{"start":6409.212,"end":6437.298,"text":"如果今天執政黨要把三黨共同簽字在院會宣讀通過的主決議都當作無效那以後委員會都不用開了委員會的決議就完全無效了不要說院會的主決議啊所以我覺得今天到底是怎樣我們執政者怎麼可以麻煩到這種程度把國會的所有的為人民啊爭取的這個權利全部都廢除了"},{"start":6439.861,"end":6468.824,"text":"再講到農民的辛勞的部分這個簽到這個稻谷收購5塊錢這個也在院會無一通過為什麼這個事情還在這裡不斷的打轉我覺得這個執政者應該要一個基本的誠意要謙卑啊我們更不要講說其他有多少浮邊爛邊的這些預算而且最重要今天的magic word已經講出來了"},{"start":6470.905,"end":6499.407,"text":"主計長已經講錢不是問題預算不是問題這是執政者的一個態度而已本席再強調一下只要依法依規依法依規我也聽到主委院長講人家要釋憲怎麼樣本席不反對你只要是依照正常的法律程序去救濟我們都尊重但是你不能用違法的方式來硬幹硬幹到底這我們不接受"},{"start":6501.229,"end":6501.369,"text":"主席"},{"start":6523.038,"end":6547.437,"text":"其實我的言論也跟剛剛一樣就是說這個部分我們本案如果黨團協商或是結論那原理會依照這個結論來辦理他所需要的一個經費如果有不敷的部分我們全力來協助辦理這樣子那因為方法有很多種他有一些人對這個我們來協助處理就可以了這樣"},{"start":6553.288,"end":6556.09,"text":"主委長有沒有辦法提一些具體的方式"},{"start":6581.506,"end":6589.246,"text":"您可以講一下例如具體的方式有沒有?大家都非常期待您表達一下意見"},{"start":6590.37,"end":6619.8,"text":"第一個就是說如果從基金支我可以以後年度來撥補基金那第二個如果要從動資第二預備金也是可以去支印有幾種方式所以我就說它的方式有很多種那第三個就是說它也可以從總預算優先調整去做支印因為本來支印就是可以做調整那調整支印之後我以後155年再來做補充所以方式有很多種以上"},{"start":6622.509,"end":6648.732,"text":"那高經緯先發言然後請蔡書記長請稍待好來請我們終於聽到行政院有非常明確的說明了我再重複一下認為總預算也可以或者是第二預備金也可以對不對好很好那還有一個就是基金那前面兩個總預算部分和第二預備金那個我就不講了因為那個"},{"start":6650.185,"end":6650.365,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6667.859,"end":6692.053,"text":"就是我們先看一下我今天特別帶來了沒有回去各位委員可以看你們現在原民會送來的綜合發展基金的預算案就114年就在我手上他的第145頁講得非常清楚就是64年這個基金從台灣省政府的時候就有了然後94年左手沿您原住民綜合發展基金的4年計畫這4年計畫包含貸款業務信用保證"},{"start":6697.336,"end":6719.625,"text":"還有補助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務沒有講到進法補償這是重點再來就是為了使這個基金相關的作業機制更符合金融機構的操作實施同時也兼顧本會就是原民會推動原住民族的經濟改善"},{"start":6720.946,"end":6740.565,"text":"產業發展還有文化創意還有政策主軸才有這個所謂的基金所以它沒有所謂的進法補償然後還講基金的規類跟屬性是預算法第4條第2項第2款第4目所定的再講一次凡付出仍可收回"},{"start":6741.506,"end":6767.088,"text":"進法補償出去了就不可以收回了這個是明文告訴我們綜合發展基金的使用我們再來看他的第12頁寫什麼呢他有很多的業務收入有投融資的業務徵收依法分配的收入第三個特別寫到其他業務收入這個其他業務收入就是行政院給園民會的預算"},{"start":6769.71,"end":6770.11,"text":"一公頃4萬塊的預算"},{"start":6800.31,"end":6808.194,"text":"4萬塊是公務預算 2萬塊是基金我翻遍了所有的基金預算書沒有2萬塊要來彌補6萬塊不足的部分再來67頁 綜合發展基金114年的負債"},{"start":6822.745,"end":6852.1,"text":"高達67億了然後呢看一下105年基金還有12.9億到了114年總共花掉了90億所以我們現在短促了多少上面寫得非常的清楚67億已經短促了這我一直在講的我要講的是現在有某委員說或者是剛剛主席長在私底下我們的討論他說呢基金的辦法"},{"start":6852.54,"end":6873.66,"text":"有講到要給禁法補償各一半我們大家想一下辦法可以逾越法律嗎剛剛我已經講了我們不管是預算法不管是中和發展基金的使用目的都不行的然後105年的時候當時是朱哲銘前組記長"},{"start":6875.734,"end":6895.892,"text":"那時候我就已經問他了我說呢你們原民會把這個金髮補償放到基金裡面是不對的然後當時的前主計長告訴我說現在還有錢可以用啦如果呢以後原民會的綜合發展基金不夠錢的時候我們會協助啦這個都可以去看我的總質詢在105年的時候"},{"start":6902.998,"end":6910.402,"text":"然後呢上個禮拜我因為清楚知道基金是短促了67億很危險要破產了所以禮拜五的時候我也提案我提案什麼基金要維持在100億的水位"},{"start":6920.228,"end":6947.334,"text":"大家可以看到民進黨全力反對包括兩位原住民的立法委員也反對然後以上就是我要針對基金的部分來回應我們的主計長千萬不要想用基金的部分這又是另外一次違法而且它還有破產的問題那最後我要再講的是原住民的族人我們人口雖少但是我們有志氣"},{"start":6948.394,"end":6948.554,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6971.538,"end":6978.984,"text":"我想透過今天我們朝野協商透過直播大家可以感受到執政黨在面對這個課題我們有沒有誠意我們真的是要解決問題為了解決問題而來而方法有許多種總是讓行政院去想辦法"},{"start":6999.54,"end":7002.802,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7024.656,"end":7043.033,"text":"不管是透過來凍結預算或是刪除預算總是都有方法但是我們看到的就是說為什麼在野黨一直無法去理解一件事就是說每個個別立委都有提案所以大家去說我們民進黨有立委去提案但是他是個別的立委"},{"start":7043.473,"end":7060.92,"text":"那縱使有人連署我相信我們大家在立委的時候我們大家在連署的時候面對每一個立委他對於政策有他的意見的時候我們會去連署他讓他呈案也就是讓他有未來被討論的機會但是這個被討論的機會並不代表行政院一定要買單"},{"start":7062.645,"end":7085.439,"text":"所以我幹嘛重點大家一直說以前的事不要再講以前講過但是以前講過如果是重點的話我們就一定要再講一次2019年通過了財政紀律法財政紀律法裡面講得很清楚我們未來的修法不得要求行政院為定額經費或者是比例的一個保障"},{"start":7086.874,"end":7104.532,"text":"所以就是不能做定額2019是一個重要的分水嶺在2019年前有提案包括你說老榮津貼包括其他的提案也許他會提案就直接增加但是在2019後基於財政紀律法我們不能為定額之提案"},{"start":7105.353,"end":7126.318,"text":"所以這個我覺得很重要包括說我們上個會期我們有通過了村里長的春節慰問金當時也是沒有行政院的版本那由立委的版本跑在前面但最後行政院也認為說好我們來增加村里長的春節慰問金所以行政院後來也是提出了版本這個我想大家都知道"},{"start":7126.818,"end":7154.939,"text":"那講到老榮今天2015年的時候2011年的時候那個時候財政基礎法還沒有修訂確實有民進黨有國民黨的立委都有提議要增加一千塊最後行政院有沒有同意這件事剛剛鄭天成委員只講行政院沒有同意錯行政院就是同意了所以他提出了他的對岸至於他的對岸他的願板就是要求要有老榮津貼要有排付條款"},{"start":7156.96,"end":7176.722,"text":"那如果沒有增加那一千塊幹嘛忽然間跑出了一個說老農津貼又排不條款怎麼可能大家會把農民的權益就限縮了行政院就提出了一個限縮版本當然前提就是他接受國民黨民進黨立委提案給老農民增加一千塊的老農津貼"},{"start":7178.223,"end":7202.585,"text":"那這個牌付條款 它裡面有規定 這個農民你持有不動產你持有農地以外的不動產 超過500萬你就不能領了我自己也有提案 好多立委給我連署我希望這個500萬要調整那我也歷經我們民進黨 我們立法院我們過半的時候 行政院沒有接受我的提案"},{"start":7203.894,"end":7222.83,"text":"行政院不接受,我也是要繼續去說服行政院到行政院可以說我這個覺得五百萬不合理提高到一千萬因為現在整個的這個不動產的價格是跟以前是2011年的時候有很大的落差我提這個行政院也不讓我接受,我還是要繼續溝通啊"},{"start":7223.47,"end":7251.008,"text":"所以立法的一個過程就是跟行政院磋商去爭取到對自己、對我們的選民不管是對每個層次的人最有利的我們立法委員、立法委員我們有這個建議我們去推他拼命但是這個打拚的這個前提就是要符合財政紀律法讓行政院有辦法編出合理的預算而且這個合理的預算我們也一直強調說我們進法補償如果我們要把它一次編組的話"},{"start":7252.389,"end":7278.745,"text":"你想想看預算估起來差不多要到40多億了50億了要到50億了你看看我們去年人民會是111億今年增加了124億增加了13億增加的幅度是比整個中央政府的總預算稅出的幅度還要增加的還要比較多"},{"start":7279.585,"end":7301.361,"text":"所以這個編預算基本上對於原住民他的照顧就是比總預算增加的幅度要高但是你如果把這個五十幾億把他灌進來他直接就佔了原民會的預算的比例就高達了39%就會排擠到了其他的業務所以行政院有他的一個考量他編出合理的28億"},{"start":7303.922,"end":7309.548,"text":"編出合理28億那因為我們現在大家草原有這樣的一個分歧所以他也有誠意說好這個6萬我們拿出一個辦法"},{"start":7314.269,"end":7342.116,"text":"辦法由行政院來想先6萬滿足未來我們讓它進入法制化我們都說了老人年金老農年金很多津貼事實上都是走向法制化我們就讓它法制化以行政院認為合理的一個金額作為法制化的基準點以後沒幾年就會調整這個金額就會提高因為法制化通常我們都會說如果CPI低於之前的話那就不算"},{"start":7342.936,"end":7353.723,"text":"我們法治法通常都是這樣定的就是希望給人民的今天不管是進法補償也好不管是其他的一個社會社會的一個救助金也好越來越多人民越來越好我們大家都期待啊但是就是要這個政府他的財政是OK"},{"start":7358.906,"end":7359.307,"text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言"},{"start":7386.384,"end":7402.955,"text":"謝謝院長我想院長應當也稍後要做出裁示了我們現在面對的是用26億援助民族進法補償的經費原民委員再也黨團認為行政院沒有編組所以用26億要來擋下3兆的總預算"},{"start":7407.984,"end":7436.129,"text":"原民委員說得很大聲要為原民用生命來捍衛世上現在已經有原住民族的青年開始聯署串聯他們反對高金素美原民委員用這樣子禁法補償的案子來做政治的鬥爭原民的青年已經開始在串聯那受惠的有5萬個原民的地主我們要為這5萬原民的地主爭取福利應當"},{"start":7437.677,"end":7445.401,"text":"要想方設法和憲都可以來做但是現在為了這5萬的社會的3萬變6萬要擋下2350萬臺灣人民的總預算嗎再說一次用26億擋下3兆總預算用5萬人民的社會地主的權益來凌駕2350萬國人的"},{"start":7463.707,"end":7481.824,"text":"總預算的需求合理嗎?剛剛討論進法補償（很多的內容討論很有意義（很有建設性（未來主計總署如果認為（合縣的範圍要來補足（那麼用基金（用二倍金（用追加預算各種方式（"},{"start":7482.344,"end":7508.635,"text":"可以討論但是討論的場域應當是在審查預算在內政委員會審查原住民族明年度的預算的時候這番討論應當發生在那樣的場域而不是發生在阻卻總預算附委審查的朝野協商的場域我再說一次預算附委對於人民經費如何花得更有效率更有品質更公平正義"},{"start":7509.415,"end":7538.23,"text":"那是在審議原民會預算的時候在內政委員會歡迎對話歡迎討論那今天重中之重關鍵中的關鍵在野黨的委員總是會說行政部門只要依法他們都尊重那執政黨團的意見也是一句話在野委員只要合憲我們都尊重只要合憲"},{"start":7541.749,"end":7564.591,"text":"都可以來克服萬難但是如果是違憲的修法違憲的百分之百來增加預算不能給的就是沒有辦法給否則今天26億明天260億馬上兩兆的健康法案又來了"},{"start":7566.062,"end":7591.361,"text":"這是後患無窮這是行政部門依憲法依法行政就是依憲行政現在在野黨委員做的是逼迫行政院要違法違憲委員們都說吳思耀你當初參與了武力華的聯署是但是我最終不表決我投下了反對票"},{"start":7592.574,"end":7617.789,"text":"我們在立委當了這麼多年不要騙三歲小孩不要亂帶風向立委面對個別委員的提案是參與聯署是為了讓他成案每一個法案不會在他簽署聯署的時候就決定了他最終的命運否則立法院何必需要一讀二讀三讀的程序何必需要對話討論呢"},{"start":7620.728,"end":7649.157,"text":"不是要我擔任從議員到立委只要對於教育文化的法案我都盡量簽署對於援助民族照顧的法案我也努力來簽署但是我有主張這個內容要妥善討論不是就照這個版本來通過再說一次法案要討論的一讀二讀三讀沒有一關是可以跳過的"},{"start":7650.387,"end":7665.421,"text":"也正因為有一讀二讀三讀的程序當初聯署的吳思瑤發現美其民照顧原民增加禁法補償的津貼但是最終會造成47%原民的預算被排擠"},{"start":7670.585,"end":7695.375,"text":"這樣子不是真的在為原住民的權益來思考因為這樣是剝奪了更多數原住民族他應當擁有的預算資源因為這樣最終我沒有辦法接受這樣子的暴增幅度民進黨團最終我們一致的做出否決"},{"start":7697.782,"end":7704.63,"text":"為限的事情不能做就是不能做所以院長你恐怕也要做一下決定了"},{"start":7705.663,"end":7729.942,"text":"因為您今天處理的決定是我們不應當在這個朝野協商為了一個原民會預算或者是要延伸到公糧要延伸到這個健保這些都要回到省衛福部的預算去處理省經濟部的預算去處理院長您要裁示的是我們的總預算要破史上紀錄第6次在院會被擋下嗎"},{"start":7731.623,"end":7758.438,"text":"從來沒有拖這麼久還連預算剛開始第一關審查都沒有我們剛剛在撥畫廊在補交作業在補學分來審上一屆沒有審的國營事業預算在野黨委員都沒得這樣啊那這樣我們現在到底還要做同樣的嚴當審議要拖到下個會期嗎?拖過法定期程嗎?不應當如此院長您必須做個決定如果"},{"start":7759.358,"end":7768.768,"text":"逼迫行政部門做違憲的預算編列這真的是後患無窮我們也支持行政部門要捍衛憲政的精神"},{"start":7780.081,"end":7793.19,"text":"委員長我今天如果真的要達成協商如果這個如吳世耀委員這樣的一個論述我想對我們協商的最後的一個結論絕對是沒有幫忙的我想一再去強調說什麼我們黨這個預算"},{"start":7796.158,"end":7819.915,"text":"我想剛才對蔡議員處議長講的我非常贊同他從這個法律的觀點的角度去評析說這個到底這樣的一個預算的編列有沒有這個他的正當性我想有沒有正當性這個大家可以討論但是我從一個觀點剛才議員講的非常好就是說到底說我們從這個3萬把他提高到6萬這個基準點誰來判斷啊"},{"start":7823.944,"end":7845.989,"text":"因為你剛才已經講說這個基準點可能行政院認為不行嘛那因為法案已經通過你認為行政院現在反悔了當初為什麼這法案要通過所以他們只能答應就是再多一萬塊但是剛才鄭天才委員講得非常清楚啊民國82年就兩萬塊啊這是多久以前的事情啊現在把它提高到六萬塊"},{"start":7847.74,"end":7876.366,"text":"這是非常合理就是你要有一個合理的基準點我現在不講行政院你的判斷基準在哪裡我們的你們的委員提案大家連署然後在整個討論過程中當然有一些反對的意見行政院曾經說那我們只能到4萬塊你們曾經提出這樣的一個說法但到最終大家討論的結果然後陳炎講的很清楚哦包含吳立華講的很清楚我都有跟行政院溝通啊他說他有去溝通啊"},{"start":7877.523,"end":7898.354,"text":"現在都非常的清楚所以你現在一直跟我們行政院現在才來跟我們講說你這個是違憲啊啊你這個是這個違法違法的編列我想這完全說不過去行政院你就已經考量過整個當時的情況你認為你的財政能夠去編出這樣的預算你才同意讓這個法案通過嗎"},{"start":7899.635,"end":7926.291,"text":"現在你就說什麼拿個大帽子扣我們說我們以這個原住民的這個補償條例來去阻擋我們的預算我想我們堅持的是一個原則就行政院你要依法行政啊你沒有依法行政我們立法院三途通過的法案被你踐踏這是一個立法委員你看得下去嗎這等於說我沒有做到監督的職責這個跟總預算所謂的黨是沒有關係我們希望你退回從邊啊"},{"start":7928.359,"end":7951.789,"text":"現在不是開車一黨二黨六黨三黨四黨到現在第五黨第六黨打到第六黨啦不是開車的委員長這個要很嚴肅來面對要依法行政我再做最後的講的謝謝林世民蘇議長那接著請黃國昌總召請發言陳主席長請準備謝謝院長我剛剛說過了其實我不太想希望這件事情有問題再發言"},{"start":7953.078,"end":7979.604,"text":"但是我也說過如果有人要再講一次再講一次再講一次那就要把話說清楚不要讓我們單方面的忍耐跟克制變得好像是對方講的有道理我們一點一點來第一個預算法91條我上次協商已經講過預算法91條白紙黑字寫的是什麼是徵詢行政院的意見不是取得行政院的同意徵詢意見跟取得同意"},{"start":7980.644,"end":7983.946,"text":"很難理解嗎很難理解嗎他們剛剛在講話的時候我都沒插嘴喔我坐在這邊靜靜的講嘛那我現在在講話的時候他們不拿麥克風在這邊插嘴喔這種沒有禮貌的行為喔真的不是應該在這邊所發生的狀況第二個"},{"start":8003.607,"end":8026.577,"text":"財政紀律法第7條第7條不是這樣解釋的啦拜託喔第7條各級政府立法機關定地修正法律不得為徵定固定經費額度或比例保障他講的是什麼他在講的是說在那個預算裡面你不可以劃一個什麼劃一個固定的額度或者是比例說一定要用在哪裡"},{"start":8028.073,"end":8051.992,"text":"這個在修法的過程當中講得很清楚啊不是說在修正法律案的時候針對國家的公法上幾乎義務給個定具體的數額這樣叫違反財政紀律法第7條否則的話不要忘了財政紀律法第7條不是只有拘束立法機關啊行政機關受不受拘束行政機關也受拘束啊"},{"start":8053.362,"end":8061.349,"text":"行政機關也受拘束啊如果是行政機關也受拘束了那請問增加各級民意地方民意道表的給付的數額"},{"start":8063.407,"end":8091.511,"text":"按照你們這樣的解釋也是屬於在這邊所講的固定經費額度我再強調一次財政紀律法不是只有拘束立法機關行政機關也受拘束換句話說如果按照你們那樣的解釋即使行政機關plus立法機關都同意你做這樣子的修法針對公法上的幾夫一物給固定的額數或增加他的數額都違反財政紀律法就不是這樣解釋嘛"},{"start":8092.071,"end":8119.028,"text":"那否則的話前面一拖骨法律案全部都違反什麼全部都違反財政紀律法根本在規範的狀況就不是你們所講的那個樣子嘛第三個部分剛剛有說趕快復委然後有很多什麼包括之前的組決議我們在審查預算的時候看要怎麼樣子再處理然後看要怎麼樣子再做什麼其他的方式"},{"start":8121.412,"end":8148.222,"text":"審查預算案的時候立法機關有的權限非常的清楚我們可以刪我們可以凍結但我們不能夠調整行政院預算案的內容我不能幫他增加金額我也不能幫他挪用這個是基本的原則在這個基本的原則下請問行政院沒有編的東西"},{"start":8149.574,"end":8164.84,"text":"行政院沒有編的東西如何透過在預算案的審議過程當中來處理就是沒有辦法處理嘛所以我們才會要求才會拜託行政院請你把預算編好"},{"start":8166.076,"end":8186.084,"text":"請你把預算編好我們趕快來審查沒有問題但問題是什麼當你該編而沒有編要我們審議的時候請問立委如何在審議的過程當中處理行政部門該編而沒有編的問題就沒有辦法處理嘛我沒有辦法增加我也沒有辦法挪用啊"},{"start":8187.666,"end":8201.801,"text":"這啟示可以在審查預算的過程當中去處理的無法處理嘛如果有辦法處理的話等一下拜託我們行政機關的代表請我們的主計長跟所有黨團的立委開示一下"},{"start":8202.722,"end":8232.074,"text":"要如何處理如何處理不違反行政部門裡面所在想的在審查預算的過程當中我們只能刪只能動我們不能增加我們也不能挪用科目請問到底要如何處理今天這個原則為什麼重要因為如果可以讓行政部門這個樣子的話那以後立法院就當成行政院背書的小弟就好了嘛"},{"start":8233.237,"end":8260.055,"text":"你就直接把它稱之為這是我們行政院的立法局嘛完全就按照我們行政院的意思嘛問題是這個是我們爭取這麼久的憲政主義下的權力分立的真諦嗎我必須要直接講我沒有辦法認同我回顧三件事情今天我們還在講的喔是禁法補償的法律案喔"},{"start":8261.932,"end":8286.055,"text":"上個會期在協商的時候韓院長很辛苦從頭到尾坐在那邊認真負責大家看了都很感動針對有關於健保給付的問題針對有關健保給付的問題是三黨的黨團幹部大家都簽字院長花了多少精神多少時間"},{"start":8288.213,"end":8300.336,"text":"說服各個黨團 大家都在上面簽字結果到今天在行政部門的眼中我們三個黨團都簽字喔那個主決議啊跟廢紙一樣我們當初花那麼多時間去討論那個東西的意義何在討論那個東西的意義何在沒有意義嘛"},{"start":8313.82,"end":8337.521,"text":"那還是說等一下請主計長告訴大家我們在審查預算的過程當中按照行政部門的高見立法委員到底接下來在審查預算的過程當中針對他們所編的預算我們可以說如何去貫徹如何去實踐建保點值在明年夏天以前每點要有0.95元這樣子組決議的內容嗎"},{"start":8342.418,"end":8364.384,"text":"因為剛剛主計長的發言讓我覺得很困惑他好像有個百寶箱 裡面工具很多原來可以這樣處理 可以那樣處理彈性很大 空間很大之前都沒聽說過之前卓榮他是鐵板一塊每工請4萬元沒有別的了"},{"start":8366.297,"end":8394.326,"text":"如果超過每公頃4萬元按照卓榮泰昨天晚上臉書的發文就是什麼就是你進去餐廳裡面亂點菜對於行政院這樣的比喻我絕對不接受我絕對不接受一個行政院院長可以講話不負責任到這種程度第二個等一下也請主計長跟大家說明公糧收購價格每公斤調整5元"},{"start":8396.547,"end":8420.956,"text":"我再說明一次我們當初提案的時候院長主持的院會請問在場委員有沒有異議一個異議都沒有一個異議都沒有在立法院公報裡面寫得清清楚楚的好 那請問在我們接下來預算審議的過程當中依照行政部門的高見我們要如何去實踐我們上個會期"},{"start":8425.334,"end":8450.043,"text":"臺灣民進黨黨提出中央國民黨提出我們的執政黨立委在現場一個意義都沒有所通過的公洋收購價格每公斤要調高五元如何在接下來的預算審議過程當中實踐這件事情我們可以挪用你們編在不同項目下面的經費嗎可以做這種事嗎"},{"start":8452.881,"end":8481.042,"text":"正是因為沒有辦法做這種事才會要求行政部門拜託你們把預算編好最後我希望等一下主計長能夠把行政部門的立場說清楚因為他剛剛又講了一次但是我必須要講我聽起來很抽象顯然是他有很多工具是可以用嘛那如果很多工具沒有用"},{"start":8481.994,"end":8505.769,"text":"我在乎的是原住民依照禁法補償條例目前三讀通過有效施行的法律每公頃六萬元每公頃六萬元是不是會依法發放會不會依法發放第二個如果會依法發放的話在現在的預算科目當中有沒有辦法支付"},{"start":8511.974,"end":8532.26,"text":"有沒有辦法支付這個都是很明確的問題需要很清楚的答案每公頃6萬元發不發這個是第一個問題第二個依照目前你們所送來的預算不管是在公務預算還是在基金每公頃6萬元的發放錢夠不夠錢夠不夠第三個每公頃發放6萬元"},{"start":8540.816,"end":8560.125,"text":"有沒有附帶條件因為剛剛主計長拿著麥克風講的話跟我們剛剛我私底下聽到的完全不一樣我剛剛私底下聽到的是似乎明年每公頃要發放6萬元行政部門是有附帶條件的什麼附帶條件"},{"start":8561.653,"end":8590.545,"text":"要在野黨同意修法改為每公頃4萬元有沒有這樣的附帶條件請行政部門說清楚講明白因為我沒有辦法相信啊我們的行政部門現在要脅立法院的方式是什麼我明年發6萬但條件是什麼修法修回來否則呢否則怎麼樣否則你明年沒有打算要按照每公頃6萬元發放嗎最後一次啊"},{"start":8592.224,"end":8619.56,"text":"說這個是違法違憲的法律那我就看不懂啦民進黨原名的委員在原鄉啊倒數設看板啊三讀通過啊按照我的版本啊不是台灣民眾黨的版本欸不是中國國民黨的版本欸他說他按照我的版本三讀通過每公頃六萬元在原鄉啊那個看板啊到處都設立啊"},{"start":8621.209,"end":8644.439,"text":"那如果按照今天民進黨的立場是不是要回去把那個看板全部都換掉每工請6萬違法違憲啊可以這樣玩兩面手法喔不好意思啊院長我承認我這輪話講太多但我前面我已經把我的立場表達得很清楚了我希望今天是來解決問題我希望今天是聽行政部門"},{"start":8645.646,"end":8669.579,"text":"提出解決的方案解決問題沒有想要長篇大論但有的時候有一些事情該回應我們還是要適度回應謝謝謝謝黃國昌總召的發言那陳主席長您要不要喝口茶深呼一下好不好因為我們現在大家都在傾聽好不好來請是不好意思因為剛剛黃總召一直說齁把"},{"start":8672.099,"end":8696.147,"text":"主席長沒有講的話硬要塞到他的嘴巴對他可以解釋對他有主席長講但是有些話是我們講的我懂我們是代表立法院民進黨黨團講的話並不代表行政院沒有關係 水長沒有問題陳主席長可以解釋的他現在有發言權所以剛剛修法這一塊是我們提出我們希望讓他法治化那我們法治化的原因我剛剛講很多我也不用再講了但是我不希望"},{"start":8696.527,"end":8696.687,"text":"委員請發言"},{"start":8708.232,"end":8728.425,"text":"謝謝院長我這裡主要是補充就是所謂的原住民族綜合發展基金它整個一個一個相關的一個用途和來龍去脈就是原住民族這個基本法第18條裡面它裡面有談到主要基金的來源就是中央政府循預算程序的撥款"},{"start":8729.105,"end":8755.271,"text":"主宰、租售和相關業務收益款還有援助民族土地賠償、補償和收益款相關法定規定的所以一般它就是在支出裡面它就有編這個援助民進化補償那這個收入的來源就是由政府由行政院撥補撥補的一個收入來源我只是說明它是這樣子的一個規範以上補充"},{"start":8756.988,"end":8757.789,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8779.581,"end":8797.427,"text":"來再談到健保點子0.95的方案這個部分行政院他是為了要盡力改善健保財政狀況提升整體醫療品質他114年度他已經增加依註健保基金336億元然後行政院又核定114年度的健保醫療給戶成長率從3.5到5.5所以估計健保總額他可以成長357到531億元"},{"start":8809.051,"end":8837.313,"text":"所以這加起來就將近於700多億那健保點子它這個整個涉及到整個醫療服務量和不可控制的因素所以我們必須還是要透過它整個一個十級的分級醫療還有實質審查健保支出等配套的機制來逐步達到這個我們服務點子的一個目標所以其實我們在這方面已經盡很大的努力那在談到公糧收購的方面"},{"start":8838.053,"end":8852.267,"text":"工糧收購方面,農業部評估以後提出一急二轉3加3的策略預估推行3年以後,產地價格每公積可抵達3元以上所以我們還是尊重業務部門的主張"},{"start":8858.339,"end":8876.396,"text":"各位黨團幹部,容許我綜合各位所提出來的以及行政部門的答詢,我列出兩點,今天我們協商的結論。一、今天協商各黨團的意見跟主計長所提的說明方案兩者有一定的落差。"},{"start":8877.461,"end":8896.402,"text":"由於主席長所提的解決方案涉及到未來總預算案是否能夠順利復為的關鍵所以仍要拜託主席長利用今天協商之後的時間妥為向各黨團來進行說明二、我們下一次的協商時間就交於各黨團幹部"},{"start":8898.41,"end":8898.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":8919.687,"end":8920.127,"text":"總預算案編列當中的幾個部門編列的事項"},{"start":8941.789,"end":8956.153,"text":"在野黨的委員有所疑議都構成總預算不附為審查的理由嗎我剛剛有提到不管是進法補償應當在內政委員會審議原民會預算的時候大家可以討論在公糧收購應當是在經濟委員會審查農業部的預算的時候可以討論有關健保點值應當是在衛環委員會來審議衛福部預算的時候可以討論"},{"start":8971.417,"end":8988.39,"text":"所以院長您真的認為現在這三個事項就足以構成總預算持續的不交付審查這樣子的合理理由嗎所以我們是非常期待院長有相當的高度調和鼎賴的能力"},{"start":8989.17,"end":9011.796,"text":"如果院長願意因為依《立法院職權刑事法》68條針對議案之間的爭議或是一些僵局由院長來主持協商來化解如果院長您願意能夠來協助就是總預算您作為立法院院長審議預算是立委的職責立法院也不能推諉"},{"start":9013.058,"end":9029.94,"text":"所以立法院應當來審查總預算我還是期待院長應當往這個方面來促成朝野往前進一步好嗎這個部分再請院長多多偏勞也希望您的才識跟方向可以往這個方向來前進謝謝"},{"start":9031.241,"end":9031.281,"text":"主席"},{"start":9048.783,"end":9070.238,"text":"其實我相信 院長不管是上個星期召集或者今天 或者我們在另訂時間就是為了要解決問題這樣的態度是絕無用意的那我不曉得為什麼我們吳思瑤幹事長仍然要用這樣的方式去質問院長如果院長不要解決問題請問一下我們大家坐在這邊幹什麼浪費時間嗎 是不是其一那第二點"},{"start":9075.942,"end":9104.82,"text":"也就是其實今天主計處所提到的包括就是說你願意在預算裡面去予以協助或支付大家都知道預算有很多的方式譬如說我也沒有聽到追加預算也是一個方式啊那我也沒有聽到有追加預算的這樣的一個選項那一直在講說啊那我們用基金來付然後我們再用預算那個來支付這個基金那我就覺得很奇怪了如果"},{"start":9105.62,"end":9124.815,"text":"在明年的我們的預算也就是大家一直在講說在這個經費上面事實上是可以足以支應3萬到6萬的話我不懂欸為什麼一定要讓基金來過水一次呢為什麼要讓用基金來過水一次剛才還提到基金的一些它的事法性問題"},{"start":9125.996,"end":9126.136,"text":"主席"},{"start":9144.207,"end":9159.815,"text":"在行政院的部分能夠更明確的告訴我們你要怎麼解決然後還有就是剛才特別提到的就是健保點值的部分健保點值跟健保其他的預算不能夠完全畫上等號啊"},{"start":9161.696,"end":9176.783,"text":"這個事大家都很清楚知道事情不要這樣的糊弄或者是公糧收購的部分我們也希望在下一次在我們能夠這個就是在進行協商的時候行政院能夠有更明確的一個態度"},{"start":9178.224,"end":9194.059,"text":"這個態度其實是很重要的而不是說今天我不希望說到時候又看到一個什麼奇怪怪的臉書然後我們根本搞不清楚行政院到底葫蘆裡面賣什麼藥還有一點我覺得最重要的是我們今天一直在討論就是"},{"start":9195.78,"end":9220.618,"text":"我們的立法委員提案的時候提案人聯署人我覺得都應該是非常認真負責任的態度如果我可以閉著眼睛提案的話或者我閉著眼睛去聯署哎呀沒關係啊大家討論看看啊我聯署不是就是希望他也能夠通過嗎所以我覺得這一點事實上我們必須再重申的"},{"start":9221.218,"end":9243.657,"text":"就是當過去武力華委員還有陳寅委員他們的提案而民進黨有高達30多位的委員包含無私要委員在內都有進行連署的時候我覺得大家都應該是負責任的而不是到了現在好像突然這個換了時間然後就換了態度然後反而去把這個"},{"start":9244.998,"end":9245.198,"text":"10月24日下午3點"},{"start":9263.436,"end":9264.177,"text":"今天謝謝各位我們散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}