{"error":false,"id":["16192"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16192,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16192","日期":"2024-10-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"黨團協商-2024102157","會議代碼:str":"立法院朝野黨團協商","屆":11,"會期":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"黨團協商","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2024-10-22T12:00:00+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-22T12:48:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:48:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc01349ae01fabb67f63b917443c8985e6059d4d42a7fce21411e0414c0fbfbd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-22T12:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」，請審議案。二、本院委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」，請審議案。【復議案未經院會通過，始列入協商主題】三、本院委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案」，請審議案。【復議案未經院會通過，始列入協商主題】）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"12:00:00 - 12:48:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1857.69846875,"end":1861.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1865.1065937500002,"end":1866.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1867.6209687500002,"end":1868.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1868.5659687500001,"end":1869.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1869.7809687500003,"end":1875.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1876.3622187500002,"end":1882.6565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1882.9772187500002,"end":1895.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1897.6078437500003,"end":1898.8228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1900.18971875,"end":1903.6322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1904.7122187500001,"end":1908.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1909.5047187500002,"end":1919.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1921.0303437500002,"end":1926.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1927.3584687500002,"end":1933.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1934.05784375,"end":1945.2628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1945.75221875,"end":1981.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1982.9447187500002,"end":1986.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1986.94409375,"end":1991.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1991.1965937500001,"end":1992.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1992.4790937500002,"end":1993.7784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1994.25096875,"end":2005.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2005.5572187500002,"end":2020.3734687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2020.5759687500001,"end":2029.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2029.7390937500002,"end":2034.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2035.1390937500003,"end":2048.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2049.88784375,"end":2059.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2060.1309687499997,"end":2094.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2095.21409375,"end":2103.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2103.76971875,"end":2124.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2124.82971875,"end":2125.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2125.82534375,"end":2131.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2132.28846875,"end":2132.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2132.3053437500002,"end":2150.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2150.8847187500005,"end":2150.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2152.6903437500005,"end":2169.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2169.8184687500006,"end":2181.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2181.71534375,"end":2202.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2202.8934687500005,"end":2220.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2220.5615937500006,"end":2228.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2229.3028437500006,"end":2255.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2256.4040937500004,"end":2257.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2258.29409375,"end":2260.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2261.2303437500004,"end":2262.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2262.5634687500005,"end":2265.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2266.07346875,"end":2269.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2269.98846875,"end":2271.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2271.87846875,"end":2273.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2273.97096875,"end":2275.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2276.45159375,"end":2279.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2279.94471875,"end":2284.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2284.83846875,"end":2291.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2291.9597187500003,"end":2294.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2294.82846875,"end":2298.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2298.5240937500002,"end":2301.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2301.69659375,"end":2323.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2323.98846875,"end":2326.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2326.6209687500004,"end":2332.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2333.2528437500005,"end":2345.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2345.3690937500005,"end":2346.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2346.6853437500004,"end":2348.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2348.6090937500003,"end":2351.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2352.37221875,"end":2373.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2373.7022187500006,"end":2393.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2394.40784375,"end":2395.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2395.84221875,"end":2406.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2406.8447187500005,"end":2415.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2417.66159375,"end":2423.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2423.97284375,"end":2457.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2457.97596875,"end":2469.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2469.9403437500005,"end":2470.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2471.3240937500004,"end":2479.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2480.45346875,"end":2483.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2483.89596875,"end":2484.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2485.04346875,"end":2491.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2491.11846875,"end":2495.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2495.5059687500006,"end":2499.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2499.7584687500002,"end":2507.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2510.6259687500005,"end":2533.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2533.7615937500004,"end":2545.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2551.5984687500004,"end":2552.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2552.94846875,"end":2557.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2557.60596875,"end":2560.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2560.8797187500004,"end":2569.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2569.04721875,"end":2570.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2570.7009687500004,"end":2573.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2574.05909375,"end":2581.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2581.45034375,"end":2597.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2597.7009687500004,"end":2601.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2601.48096875,"end":2612.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2612.1628437500003,"end":2612.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2613.27659375,"end":2613.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2613.9684687500003,"end":2618.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2619.43596875,"end":2621.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2621.49471875,"end":2647.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2647.98846875,"end":2702.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2704.04721875,"end":2706.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2707.1522187500004,"end":2738.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2738.82659375,"end":2744.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2744.7497187500003,"end":2746.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2747.33159375,"end":2774.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2774.43284375,"end":2777.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2778.22971875,"end":2805.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2805.71909375,"end":2825.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2824.39971875,"end":2828.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2825.73284375,"end":2826.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2828.43284375,"end":2838.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2838.8278437500003,"end":2854.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2854.5215937500006,"end":2858.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2864.2078437500004,"end":2864.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2864.96721875,"end":2866.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2869.5234687500006,"end":2870.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2871.0084687500002,"end":2888.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2890.7184687500003,"end":2891.12346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1857.985,"end":1882.09,"text":"蔡委員來了那這樣好三黨黨團都到了我非常感謝大家來出席今天的黨團協商的程序那我們現在開始協商的會議本日協商國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文的修正草案"},{"start":1883.434,"end":1907.814,"text":"在協商進行以前我們先介紹道場的委員還有機關的代表首先介紹我們的中國國民黨的翁曉玲委員羅志強委員還有我們執政黨的代表蔡宇宇委員還有台灣民眾黨的代表林國成林委員"},{"start":1909.574,"end":1932.296,"text":"我們同時介紹一下我們今天機關列席的代表國家通訊傳播委員會的主任秘書黃文哲黃主任秘書以及國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處的處長蔡志如蔡組長以及行政院人事行政總處主編人力處曾永芳專門委員"},{"start":1934.267,"end":1955.332,"text":"還有我們一樣是人事行政總處培訓考用處賴嘉洋賴專門委員好,非常感謝我們今天出席機關的代表那我們今天要協商的國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文的修正草案"},{"start":1956.832,"end":1981.298,"text":"總共有台灣民眾黨黨團近夫惡徒的版本也有我們翁曉玲委員並案協商的版本以及徐欣瑩委員並案協商的版本我想我們開始之前是不是先請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表林國成、林委員來跟我們說明一下第十六條我們修正的紙去"},{"start":1983.524,"end":2003.697,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們主秘各位官員還有我們那個蔡書記長還有我們國民黨兩位委員我想今天協商這個案子最主要的是十六條過去是完全沒有把時效性的問題明確化"},{"start":2005.678,"end":2034.351,"text":"所以我們台灣民眾黨提出這些就是在整個法律通過之後把時間定得很清楚什麼時候開始實施所以這樣的話一、明確化二、根本就是什麼時間就是什麼時間不會有其他至愛難省之用意所以特別跟主管機關說明所以我們本黨"},{"start":2035.852,"end":2058.853,"text":"就是把時間明確化那這個特別跟各位報告我在想這是一個非常單純的一個法律案把時效明確化這是一個非常好的法律以上好非常感謝那個林國成委員那我們現在是不是也請因為有另外一個病案協商的提案人翁曉玲委員到場請翁曉玲翁委員"},{"start":2065.065,"end":2084.878,"text":"組織法第十六條條文公佈施行日期的修正案．最主要也是因為沒有想到行政院這麼小人連我們所三讀通過的法案他都可以不施行雖然說現行的法說他要以行政"},{"start":2085.858,"end":2091.706,"text":"願以命令令定之,但是也沒有定一個期限出來,所以呢本席在這裡要提出這個條文"},{"start":2095.31,"end":2123.912,"text":"只要是未來NC組織法修正公佈之後就要立刻施行這就是防小人條款因為這個行政院他就帶頭做小人我們也怕未來其他的行政機關乃至於司法院、考試院、監察院等等的都有可能會以這種方式來處理所以我們在這裡提出這個修正案只要以後是立法院再度通過的條文沒有任何理由就應該立刻公佈施行"},{"start":2125.848,"end":2150.527,"text":"好,非常謝謝翁曉玲、翁委員。那我們接下來那個蔡易瑜、蔡委員有沒有意見要表達?來,請。我想這個法律規定這個施行日期是以行政院以命令規定之,目前有效的法律有208個,所以現行的法律事實上是非常常見而且普遍的,所以我們認為說是沒有這樣修正的一個必要,所以這是我的意見表達。"},{"start":2153.148,"end":2180.566,"text":"非常謝謝蔡宇宇蔡委員那今天我們有到場的羅志強羅委員羅委員要不要表示一下意見不用嗎那因為齁我先跟大家背景說明一下啦齁我們在7月16號的時候針對NCC的組織法因為之前有黨團提出NCC組織法的萬年委員的條款必須要予以修正那當然三個"},{"start":2181.787,"end":2202.235,"text":"在立法院裡面有黨團主要的政黨針對當初這個萬年延任的條款到底是不是有繼續存在的必要那以及我們NCC委員的資格是不是有必要加以做限制連任了以後是不是不准再任"},{"start":2203.115,"end":2219.816,"text":"其實那些條文相關實質上面的爭議在當初修正那個條文的時候提案的委員各個黨團不同的代表已經進行過充分的論述了今天"},{"start":2221.978,"end":2238.877,"text":"針對這一個施行日期的條文並沒有意思要把以前就已經處理過的論述重新再處理一次我們現在不是針對已經三讀生效的法律案要再重新進行討論的場合絕對不是那個場合"},{"start":2242.1,"end":2264.877,"text":"只不過說今年夏天在修正這個法律案的時候我們本來以為按照修法的意旨按照修法的意旨他就應該按照中央法規標準法的規定公佈以後幾天就會發生的效果只不過說今年夏天在修法的時候"},{"start":2266.121,"end":2291.214,"text":"因為本來依照中央法規標準法的規定他公告了以後就會發生效力結果沒有想到之前有一個比較老的條文也就是今天在處理的標的第十六條第十六條當初以前在訂NCC組織法的時候因為有一些配套的行政措施要必行"},{"start":2292.074,"end":2316.936,"text":"所以當年的NCC組織法留下第十六條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定制那在這樣子的背景下上一屆的國會在修正NCC組織法我們針對NCC委員萬年的條款以及他的資格限制上面並沒有去設想到"},{"start":2317.697,"end":2322.344,"text":"我們的行政院竟然會用以前舊法的第十六條的規定"},{"start":2324.045,"end":2351.681,"text":"第十六條條文說他決定不要公告那個施行的日期所以導致後來產生法律上面規定法律上面規定彼此之間的分歧因為行政院認為他們依照十六條的規定可以決定施行日期包括今年夏天上一個會期的修法"},{"start":2352.555,"end":2372.796,"text":"但是在立法院這一邊各個不同的黨團針對這件事情有不一樣的解釋我理解我們民主進步黨他們的解釋的方式應該是跟行政院解釋的方式一樣執行日期什麼時候執行讓行政院來加以決定但"},{"start":2374.258,"end":2392.92,"text":"二、當初在推動修法的在野黨的黨團包括了中國國民黨的黨團跟台灣民眾黨的黨團都不認為當初在修法的時候有這樣的意旨存在那既然已經產生了這樣子法律上面解釋的爭議所以在這個會期"},{"start":2394.654,"end":2408.587,"text":"為了要徹底的解決這個在法律解釋上面的爭議所以才針對第十六條的部分有提案修法希望予以明確化讓這個法規適用的爭議能夠畫上"},{"start":2417.711,"end":2419.052,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2437.446,"end":2438.507,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．請審議案．徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2458.089,"end":2482.757,"text":"能夠做一個發言留下記錄表達行政機關的立場只不過我要再次的跟大家說明今天協商的目的不是把三讀通過的法律案重新炒一次把三讀通過的法律案重新炒一次沒有意義要不然以後立法院沒完沒了三讀通過的"},{"start":2485.157,"end":2504.451,"text":"反對的那一方永遠可以在接下來日期當中回去持續的爭執。那這樣我們一直整個國家整個立法院沒有辦法往前走嗎?我們現在就針對今天協商的標的第十六條的部分那看行政機關的代表不管是通傳會還是我們的人種能夠來表達意見。請。"},{"start":2511,"end":2533.035,"text":"人種誰要當代表上來發言好不好因為今天本來是請行政院列席啦那行政院回函給我們黨團說主管機關他們認為是人種所以請人種派人過來那我們也是不為難行政院啦行政院他們沒有要派代表因為這件事情老實說是行政院院長決定的嘛"},{"start":2533.695,"end":2537.899,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案：一、本院台灣民眾黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．始列入協商"},{"start":2551.561,"end":2562.625,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．事由：一、本院委員翁曉玲等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．事由．始列入協商主題始列入協商主題︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎徐欣瑩等21人擬具︎�"},{"start":2581.531,"end":2582.732,"text":"徐欣瑩等21人擬具徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2597.822,"end":2618.453,"text":"以維護通傳會的業務正常運作．所以我們建議是新法施行日期是不是還是由刑罪人決定所以我們建議通傳會組織法第十六條能夠維持現行條文的規定以上好 謝謝任總代表的說明接下來通傳會有要再補充的嗎"},{"start":2619.468,"end":2647.095,"text":"那我就首先我就接著那個任總他們的這個意見了那首先呢就是第一個就是當然尊重大院的這個這個最後的立法的決定了那第二個部分的話就是我從實務上目前至少從7月31號到現在已經延任一段時間了而這個過程當中呢其實我們有很多發布這些人事命令有發布了很多這些行政裁處案件也有行政處分案件那如果說假設這段時間呢至少在立法架構上面"},{"start":2648.115,"end":2648.455,"text":"通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2666.863,"end":2668.324,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．請審議案．徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2691.51,"end":2693.592,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2707.219,"end":2731.938,"text":"一定是最後會往後發生效力的啦那文字上面到底要怎麼調整這件事情等到我們院會處理的時候我相信各位提案的委員跟黨團他們都會各自提出修正動議以及再修正動議那只不過說我必須要再強調一次回顧上個會期通過NCC組織法修正案的時候"},{"start":2732.719,"end":2760.57,"text":"立法者從頭到尾沒有意思要把施行日期交給行政院做決定我相信從整個立法的歷程當中這件事情是非常非常清楚的那也正是因為這個樣子所以現在產生了法規適用上面的爭議才有委員以及黨團分別提案要求要做修正這樣的事情當然卓文泰院長的立場在院會裡面"},{"start":2762.09,"end":2782.624,"text":"面對立委質詢的時候他也表達他表達的意見我們認不認同是一回事不過行政院院長表達的意見我們都尊重也聽到了只是說各個不同的朝野的立委大家是不是同意卓榮泰這樣子的說法這樣子的態度立法院是一個合一的機關"},{"start":2783.604,"end":2804.707,"text":"我們到最後還是要按照立法院裡面民主的程序到院會裡面依照民主的程序來加以做決定那最後針對有關於NCC委員排案審查的事情因為早就交付委員會審查了嘛議事人員我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":2805.788,"end":2825.257,"text":"很早就交付委員會審查了為什麼交付委員會審查這麼久都沒有排案審查老實講我也覺得百思不得其解但沒有關係我們就也呼籲也呼籲就是交通委員會的召委大家如果舉得急的話就趕快來排案審查是是是是"},{"start":2828.459,"end":2828.979,"text":"徐欣瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":2864.25,"end":2866.475,"text":"這樣子喔?所以一定要移請院長喔?"},{"start":2869.554,"end":2880.363,"text":"組織法第十六條條文修正草案：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文修正草案．一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩等21人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員徐欣瑩"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:31:05.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:31:16.469000+08:00","text":"非常感謝大家出席今天黨團協商的程序，我們現在開始協商的會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:31:16.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:31:28.398000+08:00","text":"本日協商國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文的修正草案，在協商進行以前，我們先介\n紹到場的委員，還有機關的代表。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:31:29.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:31:47.814000+08:00","text":"首先介紹中國國民黨的翁曉玲委員、羅智強委員，還有執政\n黨的代表蔡易餘委員及台灣民眾黨的代表林國成委員。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:31:49.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:32:27.490000+08:00","text":"我們同時介紹一下今天機關列席的代表\n，國家通訊傳播委員會的主任秘書黃文哲、國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處的處長蔡志儒，以\n及行政院人事行政總處組編人力處曾永芳專門委員，還有一樣是人事行政總處培訓考用處賴家\n陽專門委員，非常感謝今天出席的機關代表。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:32:28.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:32:49.395000+08:00","text":"我們今天要協商的國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十六條條文的修正草案，總共有台灣民眾黨\n黨團逕付二讀的版本，也有翁曉玲委員併案協商的版本，以及徐欣瑩委員併案協商的版本。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:32:50.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:33:00.378000+08:00","text":"在\n我們開始之前，是不是先請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表林國成委員，來跟我們說明一下第十六條的\n修正旨趣。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-22T12:33:03.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:33:12.650000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，還有主秘、各位官員，以及蔡書記長與國民黨的兩位委員。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-22T12:33:12.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:33:49.869000+08:00","text":"我想今天協商\n這個案子最主要的是第十六條，過去是完全沒有把時效性的問題明確化，所以我們台灣民眾黨\n提出這些，就是在整個法律通過之後，把時間訂得很清楚，什麼時候開始實施，所以這樣的話\n，一、明確化；二、根本就是什麼時間就是什麼時間，不會有其他窒礙難行之用語。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員國成","start":"2024-10-22T12:33:50.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:34:08.584000+08:00","text":"所以特別\n跟主管機關再說明，本黨就是把時間明確化，特別跟各位報告，我在想這是一個非常單純的法\n律案，把時效明確化，這是一個非常好的法律，以上。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:34:09.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:34:18.853000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝林國成委員，因為有另外一個併案協商的提案人翁曉玲委員也到場，請翁曉玲\n委員。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-22T12:34:25.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:34:39.494000+08:00","text":"主席，還有各位委員大家好，本席這次提出 NCC 組織法第十六條的公布施行日期的\n修正案，最主要也是因為沒有想到行政院這麼小人，連我們三讀通過的法案，他都可以不施行\n。","quality":0.699},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-22T12:34:42.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:00.014000+08:00","text":"雖然現行的法說要「由行政院以命令定之」，但是也沒有定一個期限出來，所以本席在這裡\n254\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 87 期 黨團協商紀錄\n要提出這個條文，只要是未來 NCC 組織法修正公布之後，就要立刻施行。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:01.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:16.066000+08:00","text":"這就是防小人條款，\n因為行政院帶頭做小人，我們也怕未來其他的行政機關，乃至於司法院、考試院、監察院等等\n，都有可能會以這種方式來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:16.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:23.892000+08:00","text":"所以我們在這裡提出這個修正案，只要以後是立法院三讀通\n過的條文，沒有任何理由就應該立刻公布施行，謝謝。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:25.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:32.593000+08:00","text":"好，非常謝謝翁曉玲委員，接下來蔡易餘委員有沒有意見要表達？請。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:32.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:50.527000+08:00","text":"我想這個法律規定，施行日期是以行政院以命令規定之，目前有效的法律有 208 個，\n所以現行的法律事實上是非常常見，而且普遍的，所以我們認為沒有這樣修正的一個必要，這\n是我的意見表達。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:53.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:35:59.252000+08:00","text":"好，非常謝謝蔡易餘委員，今天我們有到場的羅智強委員，羅委員要不要表示一下意見？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:35:59.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:36:00.733000+08:00","text":"不\n用嗎？好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:36:01.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:36:18.605000+08:00","text":"我先跟大家把背景說明一下，我們在 7 月 16 號的時候，針對 NCC 的組織法，因為\n之前有黨團提出 NCC 組織法的萬年委員的條款，必須要予以修正。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:36:19.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:36:42.215000+08:00","text":"當然三個在立法院裡面有黨\n團主要的政黨，針對當初這個萬年延任的條款，到底是不是有繼續存在的必要，以及我們 NCC\n委員的資格是不是有必要加以限制，連任了以後是不是不准再任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:36:43.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:36:58.614000+08:00","text":"其實那些條文相關實質上面\n的爭議，在當初修正那個條文的時候，提案的委員、各個黨團不同的代表，已經進行過充分的\n論述了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:36:59.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:37:10.848000+08:00","text":"今天針對這個施行日期的條文，並沒有意思要把以前就已經處理過的論述，重新再處理一次\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:37:11.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:37:18.857000+08:00","text":"我們現在不是針對已經三讀生效的法律案要再重新進行討論的場合，絕對不是那個場合。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:37:22.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:37:40.514000+08:00","text":"只\n不過今年夏天在修正這個法律案的時候，我們本來以為按照修法的意旨，就應該按照中央法規\n標準法的規定，公佈以後，幾天就會發生了效果。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:37:41.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:38:20.722000+08:00","text":"不過今年夏天在修法的時候，因為本來依照\n中央法規標準法的規定，公告了以後就會發生效力，結果沒有想到，之前有一個比較老的條文\n，也就是今天在處理的標的第十六條，第十六條當初在訂 NCC 組織法的時候，因為有一些配套\n的行政措施要並行，所以當年的 NCC 組織法留下第十六條「本法施行日期，由行政院以命令定\n之」。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:38:22.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:38:42.324000+08:00","text":"在這樣子的背景下，上一屆的國會在修正 NCC 組織法，我們針對 NCC 委員萬年的條款，以\n及他的資格限制上面，並沒有去設想到，我們的行政院竟然會用以前舊法的第十六條的規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:38:44.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:38:59.914000+08:00","text":"第十六條的規定，說他決定不要公告那個施行的日期，所以導致後來產生法律上面規定彼此之\n間的分歧。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:39:00.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:39:11.661000+08:00","text":"因為行政院認為，他們依照第十六條的規定，可以決定施行日期，包括今年夏天，\n上一個會期的修法。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:39:12.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:39:19.923000+08:00","text":"但是在立法院這邊，各個不同的黨團，針對這件事情有不一樣的解釋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:39:19.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:39:32.095000+08:00","text":"我\n理解民主進步黨的解釋方式，應該是跟行政院解釋的方式一樣，施行日期什麼時候施行，讓行\n政院來加以決定。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:39:32.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:39:46.792000+08:00","text":"但是兩個當初在推動修法的在野黨的黨團，包括中國國民黨黨團跟台灣民眾\n黨黨團，都不認為當初在修法的時候，有這樣的意旨存在。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:39:47.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:40:08.567000+08:00","text":"既然已經產生了這樣的法律上面解\n釋的爭議，所以在這個會期，為了要澈底解決這個在法律解釋上面的爭議，所以才針對第十六\n條的部分有提案修法，希望予以明確化，讓這個法規適用的爭議能夠畫上終點，可以畫上一個\n句點。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:40:08.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:40:33.328000+08:00","text":"我身為主席，剛剛是比較客觀的說明我們今天為什麼坐在這裡協商這個法案，因為我身為主\n255\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 87 期 黨團協商紀錄\n席，雖然我對這件事情有非常強烈的意見，也有強烈的立場，但是身為主席，我不要把自己的\n意見跟立場帶到主席的這個位置上。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:40:33.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:40:58.089000+08:00","text":"剛剛三個黨團的代表也都各自表述了意見，顯然針對這個\n法規的修正，我們三個黨團都沒有辦法獲致共識。","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:40:58.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:04.151000+08:00","text":"在最後這個結論以前，我不曉得今天列席的\n行政機關的代表，有沒有希望能夠做一個發言，留下紀錄，表達行政機關的立場。","quality":0.38},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:04.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:14.014000+08:00","text":"不過我要再\n次的跟大家說明，今天協商的目的，不是把三讀通過的法律案重新吵一次。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:14.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:18.276000+08:00","text":"把三讀通過的法律\n案重新吵一次，沒有意義啦！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:18.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:31.281000+08:00","text":"要不然以後立法院沒完沒了，三讀通過的，反對的那一方，永遠\n可以在接下來日期當中回去持續的爭執。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:31.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:34.624000+08:00","text":"這樣我們整個國家，整個立法院，沒有辦法往前走嘛\n。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:35.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:44.451000+08:00","text":"我們現在就針對今天協商的標的，第十六條的部分，看行政機關的代表，不管是通傳會還是\n我們的人總，能夠來表達意見。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:41:54.322000+08:00","text":"人總誰要當代表上來發言好不好？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:41:54.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:42:05.430000+08:00","text":"因為今天本來是請行政院列\n席，行政院回函給我們黨團說他們認為主管機關是人總，所以請人總派人過來。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:42:05.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:42:13.015000+08:00","text":"那我們也是不\n為難行政院，行政院他們沒有要派代表，因為這件事情老實說是行政院院長決定的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:42:13.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:42:35.571333+08:00","text":"院長可\n能公務繁忙，可能權責分配，決定請人總的來，是不是可以請人總的代表跟我們表明一下，人\n總有沒有什麼要補充說明的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴專門委員家陽","start":"2024-10-22T12:42:35.571333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:42:58.127667+08:00","text":"主席，人總這邊的發言意見是，依照行政院院長今年 9 月 10 號在立法院的院會\n中，立法委員有問到通傳會組織法這個施行日期的議題，他有提出三個原則，第一希望讓機關\n能夠正常運作；第二個就是希望能夠儘速通過人事同意權；第三個就是行政院會依法行政，等\n三個原則，回應委員的詢問。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"賴專門委員家陽","start":"2024-10-22T12:42:58.127667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:43:20.684000+08:00","text":"基於剛剛院長有特別宣示這幾個新法施行日期的原則，他是比較\n希望通傳會新任委員人事案審查通過以後，再決定這個新法的施行日，以維護通傳會的業務正\n常運作。","quality":0.261},{"speaker":"賴專門委員家陽","start":"2024-10-22T12:43:20.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:43:31.889000+08:00","text":"我們的建議是，新法施行日期是不是還是由行政院決定，所以我們建議通傳會組織法\n第十六條能夠維持現行條文的規定，以上。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:43:33.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:43:38.453000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝人總代表的說明，接下來通傳會有要再補充的嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃主任秘書文哲","start":"2024-10-22T12:43:39.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:44:03.694000+08:00","text":"首先我就接著人總他們的這個意見，第一個就是當然尊重大院最後的立法決定，\n第二個部分就是我從實務上，目前至少從 7 月 31 號到現在已經延任一段時間了，這個過程當中\n，其實我們有發布很多人事命令，發佈了很多行政裁處案件，還有一些行政處分案件。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃主任秘書文哲","start":"2024-10-22T12:44:03.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:44:19.575250+08:00","text":"如果說\n假設這段時間，至少在立法架構上面，如果假設要溯至 7 月 31 號，或是 8 月 1 號開始的話，中\n間這一段的行政處分，還有我們一些法令的制定，恐怕就會流於效力未定，這個可能要請大院\n考量。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃主任秘書文哲","start":"2024-10-22T12:44:19.575250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:44:35.456500+08:00","text":"另外，我比較建議的是，當然如果說假設是由行政院來決定的話，以行政院體系的立場，我\n當然非常希望照原來的這個規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃主任秘書文哲","start":"2024-10-22T12:44:35.456500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:44:51.337750+08:00","text":"那如果說，假設大院覺得仍然要去做一些修正的話，我的建\n議就是，因為至少顧及到現在，從 7 月 31 號到現在，已經有諸多的行政行為在進行當中了，要\n尊重這部分的效力，最好能夠在本次的這個修正，總統公布之後才往後生效，比較不會造成效\n力未定而影響到人民的權益，以及法律的安定性，以上簡要報告。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:44:51.337750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:45:07.219000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:45:07.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:45:24.513000+08:00","text":"最後修正的時候，一定是最後會往後發生效力的，那文字上面到底要怎麼調整這\n件事情，等到我們院會處理的時候，我相信各個提案的委員跟黨團，他們都會各自提出修正動\n256\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 87 期 黨團協商紀錄\n議以及再修正動議。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:45:24.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:45:38.161000+08:00","text":"只不過我必須要再強調一次，回顧上個會期，通過 NCC 組織法修正案的時\n候，立法者從頭到尾沒有意思要把施行日期交給行政院做決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:45:38.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:45:57.088000+08:00","text":"我相信從整個立法的歷程當中\n，這件事情是非常非常清楚的，也正是因為這個樣子，所以現在產生了法規適用上面的爭議，\n才有委員以及黨團分別提案要求做修正這樣的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:45:58.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:13.117000+08:00","text":"當然，卓榮泰院長的立場，在院會面對立委質詢的時候，他表達的意見我們認不認同是一回\n事，不過行政院院長表達的意見，我們都尊重也聽到了。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:13.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:21.163000+08:00","text":"只是說各個不同朝野的立委，大家是\n不是同意卓榮泰這樣子的說法、這樣子的態度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:21.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:32.254000+08:00","text":"立法院是一個合議的機關，我們到最後還是要\n按照立法院裡面民主的程序，到院會裡面依照民主的程序來加以做決定。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:33.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:42.344000+08:00","text":"最後針對有關於 NCC 委員排案審查的事情，因為早就交付委員會審查了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:43.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:44.687000+08:00","text":"議事人員，我應\n該沒有理解錯誤吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:45.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:51.951000+08:00","text":"很早就交付委員會審查了，為什麼交付委員會審查這麼久，都沒有排案審\n查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:52.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:46:54.932000+08:00","text":"老實講，我也覺得百思不得其解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:46:55.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:04.597000+08:00","text":"那沒有關係，我們也呼籲交通委員會的召委，大家如果\n覺得急的話，就趕快來排案審查。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:04.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:12.527600+08:00","text":"主席，我們今天是在討論朝野協商的主題……","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:12.527600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:20.458200+08:00","text":"現在一直講的有一點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:20.458200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:28.388800+08:00","text":"我剛剛是在回應行政部門講的話，這個紀錄，總是要讓這個過程比較完整一點。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:28.388800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:36.319400+08:00","text":"是，蔡委員\n講的沒有錯，今天聚焦的焦點就是三個黨團，三個黨團針對這件事情沒有共識，如果沒有共識\n的話，那我們是不是依照議事規則，就沒有共識嘛！","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:36.319400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:44.250000+08:00","text":"黨團協商沒有共識的話，我們就交付院會\n處理了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:44.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:46.454000+08:00","text":"喔，這樣子喔，所以一定要移請院長？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:46.954000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:48.382571+08:00","text":"讓院長協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:48.682571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:47:53.539714+08:00","text":"喔這樣子，反正就只有這兩個選擇就對了。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:47:53.839714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:48:01.554000+08:00","text":"好，那我們接下來就移請院長召開黨團協商會議\n，然後再進行協商。","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:48:01.854000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:48:12.139714+08:00","text":"其他後續的程序，我們就依照立法院職權行使法，還有議事規則相關的程\n序來加以處理。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:48:12.439714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:48:14.154000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位，散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:48:14.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:48:15.596857+08:00","text":"散會（12 時 48 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}