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是200塊不變的情況之下是不是能夠讓他們少繳一點那牽涉到這樣的一個少繳的時候其實也是一個方法這是第一個所以你剛剛講的比如說我們過去是1比1嘛是100對100那如果我現在如果依照您剛剛的談話如果這個想法變成說未來"},{"start":217.481,"end":232.266,"text":"農民繳80你們繳120他總數還是200你覺得這個會增加農民的誘因嗎或者是說其實部長您看一下我這邊大概也有提了一個不同的意見的看法比如說"},{"start":234.017,"end":247.871,"text":"我用階梯式的去增加我的撥補他繳了5年的跟繳了10年的我鼓勵他你繳越久我的撥補比例增加比例其實是越大"},{"start":249.639,"end":278.105,"text":"這是兩個不太一樣的概念啦但是其實也是提供它精神是一樣的精神是一樣的提供它有一些不同的參考基準嘛您講的是說農民可以不要出那麼多錢我一樣的是兩百塊但是我現在農民只需要繳八十塊你們改成一百二那我提的這個想法是說你只要連續五年或者是連續十年我的撥補比例是在增加的政府的撥補比例是在增加的那我覺得就是說"},{"start":279.145,"end":297.617,"text":"我們一直在講青農的投保比例過低其實我最近有發現到一個問題就是說青農在他20歲的這個階段他的人生還有很多不同的變化不同的思考所以很多的青農他甚至會想說他是不是要一輩子從農他現在就去繳這個農保"},{"start":299.752,"end":308.747,"text":"農保的退休儲金很多時候他可能五年三年以後他不想做了所以造成他不願意去加入這個退休儲金制度"},{"start":309.984,"end":336.418,"text":"會不會有這樣的狀態那面對這樣的狀態的時候你們又應該提出什麼樣的相應對策來鼓勵或者是來提高年輕人從農的意願跟提高他們參加農民退休儲金制度的意願我想謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些誘因其實跟我們的考慮的想法是一致的就是委員有提到是每隔一段時間去提高政府的撥補那我剛才也講了就是說"},{"start":338.719,"end":358.621,"text":"100塊對100塊是不變的但是農民的提繳的金額是可以因為你實際從農的時間拉長了以後你的提繳金額是變少但是保障不變保障不變那這個部分其實我們可以再去做一個詳細的設計跟規劃那第二個部分您剛才也說了我們從現在的投保來講"},{"start":359.862,"end":377.807,"text":"參加來講年輕族群就是大概30歲以下的到35歲這些相對的參加農民退休時間的比例是比較低的那也誠如您說的就是他們的不確定性從農的不確定性還在那邊就是做了解跟決定"},{"start":378.667,"end":400.647,"text":"對思考所以其實我們主力的大概35歲到45歲這段時間其實我們如果能夠減輕他的負擔的話是會有一些誘因的這個我們在歷次的青龍座談會他們也提到用比較好的一個減少他們的負擔的情況之下讓他們願意來參加這樣的一個保險其實部長我在想就是說"},{"start":402.468,"end":423.975,"text":"1比1.5這個所謂的相對用1.5倍去提高是不是真的能夠增加他們去投保的誘因這個的確是需要各方面的考量跟各方面的做過各式各樣的調查我們姑且這樣認為就是說我現在把你從1比1的相對提撥率提高到1比1.5"},{"start":426.076,"end":446.485,"text":"同等來講 勞保制度勞保的提撥是不是也要做一些調整否則這一個國家的制度就會大亂但是對於農民因為他的收入本來就比較少而且是不固定的如何增加他願意持續從農增加他在年老的時候有一筆所謂的退休金"},{"start":447.065,"end":474.45,"text":"那這個誘因要怎麼增加要怎麼鼓勵現在我們要鼓勵年輕人或者是中壯年回到農村裡頭去參與農事的耕作我覺得這個有很多的設計有很多的制度配套其實是需要更前瞻更全方位的去看這個我想也有賴這個農業部可能要多做一些田野調查我覺得你們應該是要下鄉去讓跟更多的農民座談不只是青農"},{"start":475.47,"end":492.404,"text":"中壯年他有的可能是他過去在工會在參加勞保後來他回到農村現在我們農村很多這種五十幾歲六十歲的中壯年直接投入農業的工作那在保險制度上面其實也沒有辦法符合他們的需求"},{"start":493.004,"end":505.718,"text":"我覺得這一塊也是未來農業部在做相關的保險制度改革的時候一個很重要的依據那部長因為我時間剩下一點點我想要簡短的再問一下老農津貼的這個排富門檻已經14年沒有調了"},{"start":508.161,"end":522.996,"text":"大家都一直在講那我在上一屆其實也有提過相關的修法我不知道農業部現在的態度是怎麼樣就是你們對於這件事情有沒有一個想法你認為該不該調整那如果該調整的話農業部的規劃是怎麼樣我跟委員報告就是"},{"start":529.099,"end":542.227,"text":"那個農農軍隊的排布條款以農業部的立場來講我們是支持這些排布條款做適度的修正因為包括我們的房屋的價值的所還有土地的價值房屋的價值等等隨著時間的一個調整"},{"start":544.888,"end":571.222,"text":"所以我們在我們的方案附案裡面其實我們有針對排富條款本身的所得的部分從50萬可以適度的提高然後至於說財產的部分從500萬也可以適度的提高所以這些東西都已經在你們的修正規劃裡面那什麼時候會送到行政院或者什麼時候會跟行政院來做討論我想我們已經有安排行政院的做專案報告"},{"start":572.443,"end":600.162,"text":"那做專案報告我剛才說的農業部的立場是支持這樣的一個調整那包括CPI4年的時候怎麼樣去做一個階段性的調整這個都有一個完整的配套方案那有待於就是行政院做最後的決定部長有沒有可能我們在下個會期的時候可以有一些你們行政院的版本農業部的版本可以送到院裡面來做討論甚至跟委員的案子來併案做討論那如果可以的話我覺得老農今天排付條款這個已經14年沒有調整"},{"start":602.763,"end":625.403,"text":"其實它是一個非常迫切需要改變的一個法案是 我們期待會這樣子啦因為行政院現在一直希望說八大政府的一個條例來同步考量但我們也希望說因為農業是比較特殊的是不是可以單獨先行啦這個我想我們會努力的去跟行政院做這樣的調查那我就給你一點壓力啦"},{"start":626.264,"end":651.688,"text":"否則我覺得這個我們長期因為執政黨的委員齁都是溫良恭儉讓齁我還是要給您一點壓力啦我期待下個會期那個農業部的版本就能夠送到院裡面來跟我們的版本定案來討論我們希望能夠在今年年底以前把老農津貼排布的這件事情把它做一個修訂完成讓他做一些調整好嗎好這是我想也是我們的目標好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時20分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下陳部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，農民退休儲金條例從立法院審查通過後，開辦實施到現在應該差不多5年的時間嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們110年1月1號開辦至今大概將近4年，大概三年多快4年。"],["邱委員議瑩：110年的1月開始開辦到現在，差不多5年的時間。在這5年裡頭，其實每一個委員一直不斷的在跟農業部提出的就是，投保的人數、比例如何增加。剛剛部長您的報告裡頭其實也非常清楚，我大概把你們過去送過來的比例，我們一直在講20到29歲的青農投保比例（提繳率）是很低的，不管是在青農或者是其他的年齡階層，依照你們現在送上來，我剛剛看到的一份資料，大概也都是在三成多不到四成嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：您剛剛講到誘因不足，現在有委員提出來要把提撥的比例提高，本來我們是1比1的相對提撥嘛，現在委員提出來是要1比1.5，您覺得這樣的誘因足夠嗎？這個誘因是農民要的嗎？還是你們現在應該有去統整，或者是有去做過一些田調、有做過一些調查，到底農民為什麼不願意參加儲金制度？理由是什麼？那你要做一些什麼東西是讓他會願意去參加的，你們有沒有做過這樣的調查？"],["陳部長駿季：有的，非常謝謝委員。我也跟委員說明，現在委員的版本就是從原來的1比1提高到1比1.5，提高以後相對的它的天花板是打開的，就是總額會增加。這個法案如果通過的話，是針對已經投保的人，他的退休金金額有更好的保障……"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["陳部長駿季：可是對於還沒有參加農民退休儲金制的人，剛才也說了，他們本身第一個就是他們的儲蓄能力，第二個就是他們的意願。因為退休儲金是65歲以後才能領，特別是針對這些年輕人，他可能是30年以後才能領，所以在目前年輕人的工作收入不是那麼穩定的時候，事實上就算你天花板拉得再高，他們還是不願意，就是還在觀望，這部分其實我們也透過很多座談會了解。農民希望的是，是不是能夠減少他的負擔，就是他提繳時的負擔，舉個例子，100塊對100塊的時候，總額是200塊不變的情況之下，是不是能夠讓他們少繳一點，牽涉到少繳的方式，其實也是一個方法，這是第一個。"],["邱委員議瑩：你剛剛講的，比如說我們過去是1比1嘛，100對100，如果依照您剛剛的談話，這個想法變成是未來農民繳80，你們繳120，總數還是200，你覺得這樣會增加農民的誘因嗎？或者是，部長，您看一下，我這邊也提了一個不同的意見、看法，比如說我用階梯式的去增加撥補，繳了5年的跟繳了10年的撥補金額不同，就是鼓勵他，你繳越久，我增加的撥補比例越大。這是兩個不太一樣的概念，但是也是提供他……"],["陳部長駿季：精神是一樣的、精神是一樣的。"],["邱委員議瑩：精神是一樣，但是提供他有一些不同的參考基準，您講的是農民可以不要出那麼多錢，一樣是200塊，但是現在農民只需要繳80塊，你們改成120……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我提的這個想法是你只要連續繳5年或者是10年，政府的撥補比率是在增加的……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們一直在講青農的投保比率過低，其實我最近有發現到一個問題，就是青農在20歲這個階段，他的人生還有很多不同的變化、不同的思考，所以很多青農甚至會想是不是要一輩子從農，他現在就去繳農民退休儲金的話，很多時候他可能3年、5年以後不想做了，所以造成他不願意去加入這個退休儲金制度，會不會有這樣的狀態？面對這樣狀態的時候，你們又應該提出什麼樣的相應對策來鼓勵或者是來提高年輕人從農的意願，以及提高他們參加農民退休儲金制度的意願？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，剛才委員所提到的這些誘因其實跟我們考慮的想法是一致的，就是委員有提到，每隔一段時間去提高政府的撥補，我剛才也講了，100塊對100塊是不變的，但是農民提繳的金額是可以因為實際從農的時間拉長以後變少，但是保障不變，這個部分其實我們可以再去做一個詳細的設計及規劃。","第二個部分，您剛才也說了，從現在的參加來講，年輕族群（大概35歲以下的）相對的參加農民退休儲金的比率是比較低的，也誠如您說的，他們從農的不確定性，還在做了解及決定……"],["邱委員議瑩：他還在做思考。"],["陳部長駿季：對，思考，其實我們的主力大概是35歲到45歲這段時間，我們如果能夠減輕他的負擔的話，是會有一些誘因的，在我們歷次的青農座談會，他們也提到，用比較好的、減少他們負擔的情況之下，他們願意來參加這樣的保險。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，其實我在想1比1.5，這個所謂的相對用1.5倍去提高，是不是真的能夠增加他們去投保的誘因，的確是需要各方面的考量及做過各式各樣的調查……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們姑且這樣認為，現在把相對提撥率從1比1提高到1比1.5，同等來講，勞保制度的勞保提撥是不是也要做一些調整，否則國家的制度就會大亂……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是對於農民，因為他的收入本來就比較少，而且是不固定的，所以如何增加他願意持續從農，讓他在年老的時候有一筆所謂的退休金，這個誘因要怎麼增加、要怎麼鼓勵？現在我們要鼓勵年輕人或者是中壯年回到農村裡頭去參與農事耕作，我覺得這個有很多的設計、有很多的制度配套其實是需要更前瞻、更全方位的去看，我想這個也有賴農業部多做一些田野調查，我覺得你們應該要下鄉去跟更多農民座談，不只是青農，中壯年有的可能過去在工會是參加勞保，後來回到農村，現在我們農村很多這種五十幾歲、六十歲的中壯年直接投入農業工作，在保險制度上面，其實也沒有辦法符合他們的需求，我覺得這一塊也是未來農業部在做相關保險制度改革的時候一個很重要的依據。","部長，因為我時間剩下一點點，我想要簡短的再問一下，老農津貼的排富門檻已經14年沒有調了，大家都一直在講，我在上一屆其實也有提過相關的修法，我不知道農業部現在的態度是怎麼樣，就是你們對於這件事情有沒有一個想法？你認為該不該調整？如果該調整的話，農業部的規劃是怎麼樣？請部長很簡單回答。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，老農津貼的排富條款，以農業部的立場來講，是支持這些排富條款做適度的修正，因為包括房屋的價值……"],["邱委員議瑩：土地的價值、房屋的價值等等。"],["陳部長駿季：還有所得的部分，都隨著時間有所調整，所以在我們的腹案裡面，其實有針對排富條款本身的所得部分，從50萬可以適度的提高，至於財產的部分，從500萬也可以適度的提高，特別是……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這些東西都已經在你們的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們都有規劃，但是……"],["邱委員議瑩：修正規劃裡頭……"],["陳部長駿季：對，修正規劃裡面……"],["邱委員議瑩：什麼時候會送到行政院？或者什麼時候會跟行政院來做討論、做報告？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經有安排跟行政院做專案報告，我剛才說的，農業部的立場是支持這樣的調整，包括每4年怎麼參照CPI去做階段性的調整，都有一個完整的配套方案，有待行政院做最後的決定……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，有沒有可能下個會期的時候我們可以有行政院的版本、農業部的版本送到院裡面來做討論，甚至跟委員的案子來併案做討論？如果可以的話，我覺得老農津貼排富條款已經14年沒有調整，它是一個非常迫切需要修改的法案！"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們期待會這樣子，行政院現在一直希望八大社福條例來同步考量，但我們也希望因為農業是比較特殊的，所以是不是可以單獨先行，這個我想我們會努力去跟行政院做這樣的爭取。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，部長，我就給你一點壓力……"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["邱委員議瑩：否則我覺得我們長期因為是執政黨的委員，都是溫良恭儉讓，我還是要給您一點壓力，我期待下個會期農業部的版本就能夠送到院裡面來……"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們一定依照委員的建議。"],["邱委員議瑩：跟委員的版本併案來討論，我們希望能夠在今年年底以前把老農津貼排富的這件事情修訂完成，讓它做一些調整，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我想這也是我們的目標。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}