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難．是比較嚴格的副表一．他的費率是50．那如果是副表B的技術標杆．他的費率是100．那如果不是屬於高碳洩漏風險的事業．"},{"start":2445.646,"end":2461.162,"text":"那它的這個碳費就是排放量扣掉起徵門檻之後一樣稱優惠費率那我們以這個副表一跟副表二我們透過副表二的這個方式來算如果所有的收費對象都可以達到副表二的"},{"start":2462.023,"end":2466.687,"text":"這個自主減量目標．我們請看PPT的第5頁這個收費對象在能夠滿足這個負表1跟負表2的情形之下他會有不同的優惠費率那假設所有的收費對象這500場都可以提出自主減量計畫我們預計2030年的減碳可以到37個百萬噸相較於2005年"},{"start":2485.365,"end":2489.169,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及"},{"start":2507.929,"end":2524.942,"text":"通常也就是我們所謂的高碳洩漏風險的事業如果他們在沒有我們的配套措施的狀況之下呢這個碳費佔行業平均毛利率的比例會比較高那但是如果這一些收費對象可以提出自主減量計劃也可以乘以排放量調整係數0.2的話那他佔的毛利率的這個影響會下降到這個1.14%到2.95%不等"},{"start":2535.014,"end":2557.136,"text":"那第八頁給委員們參考是我們的這個費率相較於亞洲其他鄰近國家因為這個碳成本並不是只有向我們收碳稅或是實施總量管制跟交易其實也會有一些化石燃料的稅費所以以化石燃料的稅費我們依照這個OECD的記錄來看這個日本他平均承擔的這個碳成本"},{"start":2557.915,"end":2560.976,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":2586.524,"end":2590.949,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助．及政府協助"},{"start":2598.596,"end":2602.06,"text":"以減碳跟調適還有公正轉型為主這個在第10頁有比較詳細的說明那進到我們有關於邊境調整機制的報告那我們請委員們參考第12頁其實剛剛這個經濟部連次有提到現在國際上確實已經要做邊境調整機制的"},{"start":2619.138,"end":2619.478,"text":"因應經濟部首長、環境部首長．"},{"start":2635.976,"end":2643.504,"text":"那這個以我國來說我們請委員們看第13頁我們在6月的時候其實已經有召開部會去討論第一個是因應歐盟的CBAM第二個就是開始去啟動我國如果要實施台版的CBAM有哪一些事項需要去注意所以在6月份開會過其實各部會也有提到說有一些應該要分工"},{"start":2660.04,"end":2678.872,"text":"要怎麼去做進一步的分析這個我們有在演繹當中那14頁是結語最主要是希望我們碳費能夠作為減量的工具那這個邊境調整措施我們會去參考國際的經驗特別是歐盟實施的經驗還有自己國內的這個進出口產品的狀況來儘早規劃最起碼從產品的碳申報開始以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2688.525,"end":2704.74,"text":"謝謝財政部．謝謝環境部施文貞次長的報告那關於財政部的報告請委員自行參議院並刊登公報我們先處理醫次錄請問這兩位委員對上市醫次錄是否有無錯誤還沒有錯誤我們就確定醫次錄"},{"start":2709.555,"end":2733.876,"text":"報告事項兩岸我們進行合併詢答委員質詢前原例作以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員六分鐘必要時間上兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘我們上午十點三十分即時發言登記為了會議的進行順利並兼顧每位委員發言時間的公平性也避免影響下一位委員質詢"},{"start":2735.889,"end":2748.278,"text":"請質詢委員於質詢時間結束之後,請停止發言。若繼續發言,主席會立即致辭。還請各位委員能夠盡量配合。好,第二委員,請林丹樺委員質詢。左卿,有請次長。請林院次長。"},{"start":2764.67,"end":2785.949,"text":"市長本席針對離岸風電國產化的政策政府是缺乏積極的作為那本席也針對這個現存的問題也跟您做一個爬梳離岸風電政策是缺乏整體配套跟統籌各部會各行席次到目前為止都是如此所以也導致我們現在離岸風電國產化"},{"start":2787.751,"end":2793.777,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":2811.375,"end":2837.567,"text":"國家離岸風電電力人員穩定工業及效益的問題這是經濟部環境永續發展及數據監控這是環境部那這個有效的沒有這個缺乏有效的統合、個性歧視我就以高雄為例我們每一個擴建產業轉型要來做這個離岸風電的每一個都是巨額的投資每一家都是數十億以上好"},{"start":2839.048,"end":2863.512,"text":"我們面臨的什麼問題?第一個港灣條件不足我們的這個航道深度、船舶迴轉的空間乃至土地承載力都不足以支撐水下鋼結構的所需第二個作業船舶數量跟人力規劃不足也就是建設跟維運量是嚴重不足第三個南北金屬扣建產業的配套失衡最離譜的是什麼?我高雄生產組裝之後我運到彰化的成本"},{"start":2866.633,"end":2877.341,"text":"竟然比韓國到台北港組裝再到彰化還貴不管南運到中或者是韓國運到北再到彰化我都已經加計了剛才的成本我們還貴好所以這也目前這個我們國產化離岸風電國產化尤其我南部的業者遇到的"},{"start":2887.128,"end":2910.269,"text":"大到發電廠業變小到機艙灶跟複合材料都需要仰賴國外技術及製程趁勢還要去面對紅色供應鏈的稀產地深入我離岸風電國產化的供應鏈好、困境二、政策雷聲大雨點小我們高雄金屬加工及擴建業者信賴中央的產業發展政策投入巨額,剛才我講了每一家都數十億一個天車就要兩三億"},{"start":2914.252,"end":2918.674,"text":"那至今這顆粒未收遭到各種理由這個開發商就有很多理由了來說你是無產制用什麼理由用不適用的規範他用他本身歐洲那種大機組的來說我們國內要跟他一樣我們國內不需要這麼大的一個設備啊"},{"start":2930.24,"end":2935.401,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":2948.965,"end":2965.041,"text":"的這個基座只有22座是我國內的這個高雄生產國產化整體的目標是要60%欸我就算用假平等對半30%北部30%我南部30%這是假平等我現在的高雄也僅不過占12.8%"},{"start":2967.403,"end":2973.406,"text":"這國產化哪有弱勢每一家都是數十億以上欸台灣的離岸風電依本席啦我認為台灣的離岸風電是拯救了韓國業的鋼鐵業者然後呢為什麼他能夠這個韓國鋼鐵業能夠跟我們競爭國家全力支持啊港灣提供、設備提供這個包括這個土地提供"},{"start":2992.185,"end":3015.39,"text":"我們國內通通沒有就業者你自己處理然後據聞現在這次進行是部分的業者也不到韓國了他就到越南採購中國鋼鐵進來國內組裝所以當初經濟部說要組成離岸風電國家對進去東南亞入境高雄的業者我說與其說高雄不如說我中南部的業者哀鴻遍野政策殺人莫勝於此"},{"start":3016.803,"end":3028.354,"text":"好,我們的維運量人,現在已經進入到維運,已經有將近7年了。我們相關的作業量人都還是聚焦風場的開發跟建置。請問次長,我們的維運規劃在哪裡?目前的283座的風電機組,國內有沒有專業維運的團隊?好,你有沒有維運的規劃?有沒有維運的團隊?人才培訓又在哪裡呢?"},{"start":3040.816,"end":3044.841,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":3056.997,"end":3058.118,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":3087.237,"end":3089.298,"text":"第二、我們封廠旁邊是臺灣海峽國際航線每日將近300艘的商貨輪的往返。我們又面臨傳統漁場的作業區域,封機如果發生事故,葉片斷裂,倒塌,人員救援,相關單元是如何因應?"},{"start":3113.687,"end":3123.412,"text":"第三個最離譜的,業者目前的緊急組織方案是什麼?他就靠我們空勤總隊。好,我就以這個臺中港的這個事件,你說我們的維運。去年在臺中港離岸的第一起,風電的機座平台發現一具男屍。"},{"start":3133.991,"end":3141.317,"text":"我們沒有定期的固定巡邏,人員也沒有規劃,也沒有人力也沒有整體的規劃。所以我這邊具體要求也請次長來回應。第一個,請經濟部務必認清歐盟向WTO提出國產化的限制意義,這個是自由貿易商業競爭的手段。"},{"start":3157.111,"end":3162.896,"text":"要認清楚啊這是我們有心的業者要打擊國內的國產會去大WTO去告狀啊說這個自由貿易這是自由貿易商業手段好沒關係既然國系規則這樣講你自己本國對於國產化當中你就要知道要怎麼因應喔你不能屈服這種有心人的這個打擊本國的這個國產化"},{"start":3180.791,"end":3185.714,"text":"好,然後所以你們說呢這個離岸風電3-3級要鬆綁所以請你們務必考慮國內產業鏈尚在建設當中需要政府的協助我具體建議請經濟部研議後續的輔導措施如統合我前期其經的中小型造船業者他們有技術水下結構的業者這個本身業者也有提供碼頭跟重型設備維運需求者"},{"start":3207.968,"end":3213.331,"text":"來共同解決離岸風電的違運量能短缺。這個是點出來是我們現在都沒有規劃的違運量能。第二個,考量國內產業發展跟國防工業的自主安全。有關離岸風電的複合材料基於排除紅色供應鏈,請經濟部產發署務必將機艙罩與鼻椎罩列入MWO,禁止大陸進口。這是國內有產啊,你去問問這個國內的這個複合商業同業公會。"},{"start":3237.586,"end":3242.555,"text":"第三、經濟部就應該就合約的內容．要求離岸風電開發商提出具體維運．這是平時．緊急的處置是什麼．解決方案．來這三個次長具體回答"},{"start":3250.51,"end":3272.259,"text":"這個第一題我們一定會來研議尤其是要統合基金尤其是高雄地區這些跟離岸風電有關的這些業界我們一定會來做一些研議做處理這部分目前在做第二點我們來討論來研議那第三點我們這個本來就要按照合約要有違應的句話這個在合約上是非常有明確的一個"},{"start":3273.799,"end":3287.926,"text":"好,這三點都一個月內提出具體方案好嗎?好,好,謝謝,謝謝次長。好,謝謝林代化委員。次長請回座。消費執行請邱毅英委員。"},{"start":3301.049,"end":3325.082,"text":"呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環環境部施市長。委員好。欸,市長好。市長我想這個首次喔,在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教齁。那有幾個問題我想我就直接問,因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格齁。"},{"start":3328.932,"end":3348.718,"text":"市長您剛剛講到這個碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國但環境部的說法是沒有"},{"start":3349.758,"end":3367.247,"text":"但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100"},{"start":3368.988,"end":3384.875,"text":"所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的"},{"start":3385.535,"end":3410.327,"text":"好 各位委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個"},{"start":3414.43,"end":3434.745,"text":"這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定"},{"start":3443.451,"end":3447.433,"text":"另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢?也會跟著調漲嗎?"},{"start":3463.58,"end":3480.467,"text":"我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著調漲的跟著一般費率的基準去調漲它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付這兩句話所以你們現在調漲的"},{"start":3482.007,"end":3490.231,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":3498.596,"end":3523.37,"text":"另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案來次長"},{"start":3523.77,"end":3537.613,"text":"有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣件業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應"},{"start":3548.135,"end":3552.916,"text":"那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點"},{"start":3569.481,"end":3573.365,"text":"第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易"},{"start":3588.101,"end":3590.102,"text":"他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期"},{"start":3603.266,"end":3629.797,"text":"市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的"},{"start":3632.998,"end":3635.08,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":3652.572,"end":3665.143,"text":"其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?"},{"start":3666.108,"end":3680.601,"text":"我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是"},{"start":3694.417,"end":3696.918,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":3705.312,"end":3705.973,"text":"接下來要談到這個就很敏感了"},{"start":3734.106,"end":3759.802,"text":"那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配?這個來我先說一下當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留?其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄"},{"start":3761.384,"end":3766.174,"text":"但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例"},{"start":3767.375,"end":3791.666,"text":"最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,"},{"start":3793.626,"end":3809.743,"text":"繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧"},{"start":3810.383,"end":3825.456,"text":"我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有那因為這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮"},{"start":3827.378,"end":3851.09,"text":"那你也去補助他這也很奇怪阿跟委員報告啦如果用減碳量來分其實有好多個縣市是完全分不到碳費的收入所以這個在使用上他完全分不到是因為他也沒有什麼排碳量嘛那排碳量高的縣市反而分得少這個就很奇怪阿所以我覺得這個應該要好好的再討論一下而不是現在你們用這個方式就去公佈阿好謝謝委員好謝謝邱委員委員次長請回座"},{"start":3856.267,"end":3856.467,"text":"請楊瓊怡委員"},{"start":3879.168,"end":3905.982,"text":"兩位次長尤其經濟部首先要請教也就是卓院長跟外媒他也特別說了新核能的科技它是全面性的非常開放所以首先要請教次長所謂的卓院長所提出的新核能科技是什麼請教"},{"start":3909.414,"end":3911.895,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":3925.163,"end":3927.425,"text":"所以請問目前為止因為行政院長已經提出那部會是不是有相關的研議有沒有"},{"start":3949.127,"end":3961.088,"text":"我們有持續在研議的方向是跟卓院長一樣也就是說新核能的科技的態度是非常開放"},{"start":3962.702,"end":3978.987,"text":"以前是非核家園嘛 對不對那現在你們是採取跟世界接軌的 非常開放的態度 是不是我們不預設任何立場 因為這樣的是 各界對於這樣的信任基礎市長 卓院長接受彭博的專訪他提起喔"},{"start":3979.767,"end":4002.195,"text":"他已經提了他竟然會提起你是經濟部是最重要的幕僚長方向應該跟行政院長的方向是一樣的嘛是不是?因為我們有在關注各項跟核能有關的這樣的一個發電的科技所以你認不認同卓院長所說的也就是說新核能科技的態度是非常開放"},{"start":4003.348,"end":4029.756,"text":"對,我們目前是用開放的態度在面對這個問題是非常開放嘛這跟卓院長同一部的嘛之前我們一直說經濟部長次長在這裡經濟部長要上任的時候說核能是一個乾淨的能源他這麼說接下來我們要求說那麼核二、核三是不是可以研議但是拿了一部法叫做什麼環境基本法第23條"},{"start":4031.872,"end":4053.649,"text":"拿了這個法來做阻擋牆那請教次長您剛才說的也跟卓院長的論點一樣新核能的科技的態度我們政府因為你是經濟部那麼政府是非常開放那你們是不是會將環境基本法的第23條會來修請教"},{"start":4057.659,"end":4086.815,"text":"那環境基本法的那個主管機關應該是在那個那個環境部這邊你要有你的立場啊因為你是持非常態度啊那我們要求你合二合三要研議你說因為有了這一部法啊那同時也說了除非修法所以你必須你所要的你會不會要求環境部你會不會提出要來修法會不會請教就目前法令來講法令規定是你會不會提出我們還是會依法來來行政的"},{"start":4087.993,"end":4100.739,"text":"哇!那民眾每一天就好像在撒謊啊!解籤詩啊!一個院長告訴我們是非常開放的態度那現在又有一個《環境基本法》的第23條在那裡那民眾該當要聽哪一個?要聽哪一個?"},{"start":4105.273,"end":4128.796,"text":"所以,次長,本期再請教,我們不要讓民眾每天好像在撒謊,各解自己的意思,政府應該要有一個方向告訴民眾。所以請教,您說你們隨時都有在研議,再一次請教,我們針對於政府目前針對於新核能的科技的態度,是不是誠如左院長所說的,是非常開放?"},{"start":4129.266,"end":4139.776,"text":"就不會預設任何立場我們歡迎各界在討論這個問題而且現在在總統委設立國家氣候變遷對策委員會也有一些委員有針對這個議題在進行討論"},{"start":4141.556,"end":4166.536,"text":"所以是採非常開放的途徑在走好 那所以次長在這邊次長您聽到經濟部次長的這個說法那環境部本身您會不會也依照卓院長的方向就是非常開放所以也不一定是依照的我們的環境基準法的第23條非核家園請說明好 我有好跟委員報告"},{"start":4167.689,"end":4178.785,"text":"我們以環境部的立場來說任何的新的能源我們也其實就是整個行政團隊都是採取比較開放的態度但前提以環境部來講就是"},{"start":4179.464,"end":4197.429,"text":"他必須對環境來說是不會有再來負面的效益那再來就是其實環境部在這個做環評的過程當中會發現比較這個需要很大的社會共識來推動一些這個類似像過往然後像比如說以核能來說"},{"start":4198.189,"end":4212.901,"text":"所以就環境部的立場而言環境基本法目前的這個寫法是我們必須要依法那也會希望說這個對於任何形式的能源我們要確定它對環境沒有負面的衝擊或負面衝擊可以減輕"},{"start":4214.761,"end":4232.836,"text":"那也希望可以取得社會的共識再來做推動所以換句話說也是朝開放的立場你這麼說法我們也歡喜聽到你開放的立場但是我們看到現在我們面對的也就是碳費補助的問題您的部長他說了"},{"start":4233.817,"end":4238.84,"text":"他的本來就是專款專用在這個項目,怎麼樣去檢探這個項目。但是,您的部長說了一句什麼話呢?說如果留在地方,它是分贓,是利益分贓。您認同這一句話嗎?您認同這一句話嗎?"},{"start":4256.603,"end":4278.09,"text":"產出在我們地方欸我真的傻眼怎麼會有部長這麼說竟然提出利益分贓我再告訴你盧秀燕市長說至少八成的碳費留在地方蔣萬安市長說支持取之於地方用之於地方的概念把碳費留給地方是更有效率的第一線執行第一線執行"},{"start":4280.291,"end":4307.788,"text":"陳其邁市長也說,碳費留在地方應該是這樣子的。張立善縣長也說,碳費至少要一半留在地方。我們的彭部長也說,他說,取之於社會,取之於企業,用之於企業,補助企業實質減碳作為,來作為總量管制,但相關的碳牌的這個設備以及方案,對不對?這個目的,我要告訴你,"},{"start":4308.772,"end":4335.539,"text":"做一個我們的政府官員不要水口而出另一分張讓全國都傻眼臺中是我們的中火我們的中火我們看到我們的中火被報導全球碳污染的是全球的第19名碳排量的3419萬噸沒有理由不協助我們上次我也給部長講"},{"start":4336.599,"end":4341.502,"text":"一定要好好的協助臺中在淨零碳排的部分必須專案去處理那麼也得到部長的一個認同他說的確你們現在在考慮這個內容的時候必須要納入因為它是全球最嚴重的中火燃煤的這個污染源排、排碳的這個部分所以我們也談到必須要以價自量以價自量必須要將你的碳藍圖"},{"start":4367.76,"end":4386.514,"text":"以及你的碳費要怎麼做要讓民眾去了解這一點是非常重要所以我再一次的強調政府做事情你不用只有在冷氣房裡頭來做決策你應該要看到人民的所需所以我再一次強調部長說的如果把碳費"},{"start":4387.535,"end":4389.957,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":4403.806,"end":4406.448,"text":"這是王美花部長當時答應的我們務必要照期程去做所以我再次的要求針對於中火的這個議案你必須在他們的裡頭專案去研討怎麼樣協助我們中部地區你認同嗎?"},{"start":4424.984,"end":4437.047,"text":"中部地區的這個中火的污染其實空污費我們有留一定的比例有在補助在協助那這個我們也在這個減碳的這個計畫上本席跟你講碳費你說到空污費空污費現在目前在執行這麼多年就是以六成在地方對不對所以我們希望好好的去研討協助地方專款專用這個碳費讓企業跟地方都能夠安心嘛好不好專款專用沒有問題"},{"start":4451.792,"end":4454.434,"text":"主席,我想先請環境部施次長環境部施次長"},{"start":4479.222,"end":4495.314,"text":"市長早那針對碳費開徵之後的分配問題近日已經有多個縣市首長都呼籲碳費應該至少有八成留在地方那針對這一點環境部對於分配給中央跟地方的比例有沒有過討論?"},{"start":4498.595,"end":4498.695,"text":"邀請經濟部首長．"},{"start":4528.735,"end":4531.176,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":4552.523,"end":4556.587,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":4568.138,"end":4569.619,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4598.238,"end":4600.44,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長就:「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．"},{"start":4622.262,"end":4640.812,"text":"明明就是不一樣嘛,你碳費的收費制度方式就是空污費的翻版嘛。但排放量最大的區域就是污染的所在地。那取之地方用之地方,地方的污染源、角角、碳費地方應該就應該得到經費的分配啊,讓地方有經費可以"},{"start":4646.275,"end":4663.543,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助推動環保．永續淨零排碳的工作．才有辦法繼續進行．所以本席要求環境部應該競速地提出對策那本席也主張有鑒於固定污染源．然後營建污染源的部分．分別都有60至100%移交給地方之規定"},{"start":4667.065,"end":4670.753,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4678.817,"end":4703.574,"text":"我覺得我建議我建議環境部不要再一味的反對因為提出對岸我們大家才有討論的空間跟我們報告這個《空污法》是107年那這個108年有這個《財政紀律法》通過的時候其實有對這個都不一定比例做限制你現在繼續在講也是反對的意見嗎那我想要請那個聯治長一起上來看一下來接下來看一下這個"},{"start":4708.345,"end":4712.448,"text":"我想要請教一下次長 這個表格是你們環境部製作的吧是那你仔細看一下仔細看一下說日本他的碳價標準64.7元然後韓國實質碳價5.7元然後包括這個"},{"start":4730.595,"end":4734.218,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":4748.152,"end":4755.758,"text":"臺灣臨近幾個國家的這個碳價收取標準包括新加坡它當然是稍微比較高一點它是139.8至233但它製造業幾乎是零所以我想要請教一下就是連部長"},{"start":4766.908,"end":4787.281,"text":"這個裡面喔算的這個實質碳價就是企業在使用了他們的免費配額之後實質上每公噸需要繳交的碳價那您覺得這個費率會不會影響我們臺灣產業的競爭力這個我分兩個講一個是高碳洩漏其實如果就目前那個優惠費利比的話100塊因為它有80%是免費所以變成每一噸它應該是20塊"},{"start":4793.139,"end":4804.439,"text":"應該是介於在那個日本跟韓國這中間當然一般產業他要提自主減量優惠費100那這一部分我們會來協助他來提自主減量計畫來降低這個衝擊"},{"start":4805.848,"end":4813.416,"text":"而且在那個一般產業的話其實它有一個2.5萬噸這個我都知道我只是想要請教兩位市長針對碳費的議題你們有沒有收集全國相關產業的意見因為據我所知像工業總會工業總會它佔了"},{"start":4824.708,"end":4845.996,"text":"全國GDP4成以上．那公會的理事長潘俊榮他就有很具體的建議說．包含碳費的費率偏高．不利於產業低碳轉型．而且目前呢．碳費的規劃沒有跟台版的CBAM同步．呼籲政府應該盡速的實施臺版的CBAM．"},{"start":4846.556,"end":4853.405,"text":"那最重要的是要考慮周遭國家的情況那公總他也認為說碳費應該要對標韓國那你自己算假設是50塊的話就高韓國9倍假設是100塊的話是將近幾倍"},{"start":4866.281,"end":4875.439,"text":"15倍那如果假設是你說的20塊那也是4倍左右啦3點多倍4倍左右你覺得這樣不會影響我們產業的競爭力嗎?"},{"start":4879.757,"end":4887.283,"text":"當然產業針對這個碳費的收取都會有一些衝擊性但是我們一定是可以透過一些相關政策來講因為經濟部是全國產業的主管機關你們必須要為產業爭取啊否則我們的產業如果活不下去的話我們台灣的競爭力當然無存欸因為這個在碳費、費力委員會在審議這樣的一個碳費過程中我們經濟部是有提出極力爭取才有現在這個"},{"start":4905.168,"end":4911.633,"text":"到目前為止我聽到的產業這方面的意見大家還是哇哇叫他們還是覺得說這不只是影響了他們的競爭力甚至他們獲利的能力也大大的減少了我看了這個圖表其實本席是一則以喜一則以憂因為喜的是我們對淨零排蛋真的相當有決心比照周遭的國家還要積極"},{"start":4931.109,"end":4938.373,"text":"那優的是,產業會不會受到大大的衝擊呢?影響我們的國際競爭力?那這經濟部到底有沒有評估過呢?因為產業競爭力就是我們國家的命脈,我們不可能自斷經脈來達成這個淨零的目標嘛,你們同不同意?"},{"start":4949.58,"end":4964.273,"text":"當然一定衝擊啦這個而且我們有去做出那個影響評估所以才在碳利費利委員會把我們影響評估把各位委員去做報告最後這個是一個大家共同決議出來那我們當然是如果能夠越低越好那本席幾"},{"start":4965.134,"end":4993.449,"text":"本席建議就是說假設你實施了之後真的對產業衝擊太大本席建議你必須要重新盤點重新考慮而且呢也希望說你們要儘速的啟動台版的CBAM因為CBAM的這個推動是迫在眉睫產業界都希望你們能夠加快腳步確保本土的產業在國際碳稅的壓力之下不會失去競爭力那目前喔日本也在研擬類似的機制所以"},{"start":4993.789,"end":4995.37,"text":"呼籲臺灣要儘速跟上腳步。"},{"start":5026.426,"end":5034.528,"text":"市長,部長今天為什麼又請假?他怎麼又見請了嗎?是不幹了還是怎麼樣?他宴會去日本已經被罵啦!他怎麼樣?是上禮拜講了要去菲律賓"},{"start":5057.858,"end":5081.716,"text":"蓋電廠是你被罵,現在又不來?今天這個會,我知道主席剛剛有報告,那個會那麼重要嗎?今天有28位立法委員要質詢欸這輕重緩急,我不要用藐視國會這麼重的話啦就是說這本來,包括賴清德、賴總統都講啦你們執政黨的立委,或者說從政黨員就要來他不是在挑戰賴清德、賴總統嗎?"},{"start":5084.039,"end":5100.843,"text":"這是不是本來就是部會首長該做的事情?這外界會怎麼解讀?好不好?市長你回去跟部長講一下下次不能再請假了好不好?下次不能再請假了好昨天本席開了一個很重要的記者會就是攸關我們電力發展"},{"start":5103.032,"end":5129.574,"text":"三接第三天然氣這個接收站的他發生了兩個很嚴重的問題就是他這個保冷的這個管線的這個保冷這個係數不足第一個他用了國際上已經禁用了活力天這個有改進我昨天看我假把李董找上來昨天看起來中油的反應還算是正面的還算是正面的他答應說很清楚的表示說如果這個材質有問題"},{"start":5130.675,"end":5156.985,"text":"要換掉嘛 對不對那如果是新進的 因為工程現在是一半1點 這個山街從碼頭到儲存槽1.6公里的這個管線目前做了大概50%嘛那這50有問題的要趕快拆好不好不能夠像昨天我開記者會之前問你們你們說要邊做邊改一次改一公尺請協中 請協中該協中第一個速度比較慢嘛第一個是公安問題 那天然氣如果漏出來"},{"start":5158.519,"end":5185.071,"text":"這個不得了的事情所以這個第一個要趕快做這個安裝上去我們一定會盡快把它整個全部把它OK一定要做那個所以次長你有掌握這個進度嘛對不對這事情你有掌握嘛對不對有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":5187.623,"end":5214.082,"text":"結果他6月10號他跟我講3J在明年4月份一定會建完對不對我就問他喔你一定要如期喔你不如期沒有接收在那個斷氣啊對不對你河山廠的2號機明年就停了嘛你5月份要停你4月沒有蓋好他說有把握好那經過昨天這個事情你沒辦法要改了對不對今天保證包括你包括中右董事長如期3J可以在明年的4月完成嗎"},{"start":5215.674,"end":5240.707,"text":"可不可以跟委員報告依據我們目前對進度的掌握那所有包括這些保養材料的更新我們都來得及以目前我們掌握的進度來得及在明年在我們要試運行之前完全更新完畢跟委員報告我們一個原則就是說我如期的前提是如此"},{"start":5241.407,"end":5260.239,"text":"我品質一定要．當然當然當然這個品質就是我昨天講那兩個李董跟市長我昨天講的這個是很嚴重的一個弊案你本來要保冷的欸那個天然氣在輸送這個過程裡面零下162度C欸那個不能開玩笑的就你的保冷那個係數不夠"},{"start":5262.8,"end":5286.722,"text":"而且你一邊做一邊改那隨時天然氣出來可能這次有爆炸這是很嚴重的事情所以一定要改好不好速度第一個是安全第一個是安全我昨天記者會講的內容一定要改這是一個安全第二個要如期要完成要不然到時候就缺電就斷氣了好我進一步來問這事情經過崔少哲選舉完之後我跟中友還有跟經濟部所知"},{"start":5287.588,"end":5296.018,"text":"我們看一下我所知的內容要的是契約書的影印本要是忠友跟陳寶釗往來的公文這個啦你多了三大個喔到現在都沒有給我喔"},{"start":5297.725,"end":5318.832,"text":"第一個,你沒有提供企業書的本身,你給我一個什麼保冷的規範,我上網我找就有啊,對不對?第二個也很嚴重,往來公文裡面漏掉兩筆非常關鍵的,包括你們發現問題的公文,你們都把它蓋起來了。第三個,廠商跟台電公文現在不完整,現在本席很清楚,你們現在改善的同時,這三份東西,三天內送到本席辦公室可以嗎?"},{"start":5320.06,"end":5320.44,"text":"這次有三個很大的廠商第一家"},{"start":5339.228,"end":5366.594,"text":"這是日本很大很大的公司耶他負責這次整個接收站的這個設備跟管線的統包最主要是他然後右下角這個這個是韓國的公司他負責提供材料可是你看這張長大的文章出在韓國這間公司該保冷的沒有用了國際上已經蒙特羅議定書裡面已經用了佛立青他竟然也用了這個都要多去追究責任另外中頂負責什麼工程施工的進度的監管包括"},{"start":5367.776,"end":5370.677,"text":"另外我要問,到目前為止材料造假,你們只做了一個處分,只有做了扣點。"},{"start":5386.463,"end":5405.418,"text":"欸,這不夠喔!人民一方面要看的是安全,對不對?一方面,如果真的這個廠商有問題的話,我問你,你看他自行抽案不合格的報告,結果你是有擴展進去處罰,人家會不會說你是放水?等一下,有造假紀錄的廠商,你現在要給我找?你第一個你要不要再叫他做?"},{"start":5406.397,"end":5422.277,"text":"正常是不應該讓他做啦那你現在說這個重大工程那你一定要嚴格監督好不好追究責任嚴格監督而且確保一定安全是 報告委員我們會依據那個企業來執行那這個案子當然我們看到中游的基層員工監守崗位這應該要加獎啦"},{"start":5423.066,"end":5441.565,"text":"要肯定好不好所以今天市長在這邊董事長在這邊我跟你講基層的員工是讓人家感動的他主動去發解問題去解決問題對不對回去要激光要嘉獎要好不好這件事情要做要鼓勵這個好的這個文化中有很好的這個文化第二個李董也很重要你現在負責善後"},{"start":5442.492,"end":5470.385,"text":"所以次長你在這邊也會去跟部長講如果散落得很好也應該對李董應該是要加獎的好不好我們已經在後續在處理這件事情好來OK另外一個案子也是非常李董你先請為好謝謝我在六月五月份開了一個很重要的記者會臺元綠能兩年虧了2.5億那個是我們人民的納稅錢而且那嚴重的是什麼綠油有沒有賺到保現在最新進度是昨天"},{"start":5472.535,"end":5497.651,"text":"臺南地檢署三十二路大搜索包括前臺原綠能的董事長陳啟毓跟總經理五個人今天早上最新的進度已經被生壓進鑑了我請董事長現在幫我做幾件事情第一個 把這個 董事長跟這個次長 來做這幾件事情第一個 臺原綠能這個案子裡面到底虧損了多少錢這是我們人民納稅錢"},{"start":5499.192,"end":5524.16,"text":"他現在把我們人民納稅錢．左手換右手．透過移少報多．把我們人民納稅錢弄到一粒一粒有有．弄到下游廠商的這個口袋裡面去了．所以現在被生壓進監了．可是第一個．請查清楚到目前為止我們人民納稅錢．損失了多少錢．第二個更重要的．你們要提出一個追償的計畫好不好．這個錢被．被拿走了嘛．"},{"start":5525.1,"end":5545.608,"text":"那這不法的事情啊,請把這個錢追回來。第三個,對台演做一個,台演綠領做一個行政調查,目前有做嗎?有沒有做?應該有做,有。有做齁,那什麼時候可以給我?我們之前在那個報告委員,我們之前已經有做過行政調查,我們可以把報告再提供給委員。所以今天就可以送過來了嗎?"},{"start":5548.483,"end":5565.039,"text":"另外最重要的,最重要就是這個事情要發生,要趕快撲破。所以就要做一些預防措施,你要從製度那邊去改啊。一個禮拜你給我一個報告,包括立法院該怎麼修法,好不好?這個是人民納稅錢不能夠這樣透過一個無軌搬運。"},{"start":5567.381,"end":5567.901,"text":"來 次長先請回座"},{"start":5602.123,"end":5622.74,"text":"下一位質詢,請謝一鳳委員。謝謝主席。我想要請我們聯次長跟我們環境部的施次長。環境部施次長"},{"start":5625.794,"end":5629.974,"text":"不好意思可以幫我把那個關掉一下嗎?這個是誰的?"},{"start":5633.931,"end":5659.658,"text":"我想請問一下兩位次長就是我們現在臺灣的碳費它涵蓋的是54%然後500個工廠跟281家企業但是我想要請問我們增碳費的最大的原因就是為了可以抵銷就是歐盟的那個CBAM對不對那有多少人可以抵銷歐盟CBAM"},{"start":5662.619,"end":5666.502,"text":"應該是鋼鐵。應該是鋼鐵,就是扣件。因為我們歐盟CBAM它有一些繳費的對象,並不是我們碳費收費的對象。所以不是全部的人都需要繳,因為他們所使用的原料鋼在我們這邊是會收碳費的。"},{"start":5684.697,"end":5707.354,"text":"我們也在跟歐盟去談說這個如果他的原料比如說扣件業因為扣件業台灣是目前大部分是不用繳碳費但他們所使用的原料鋼如果用中鋼這個我們是有的所以我們在因為歐盟自己對於他要怎麼抵扣的計算還沒有出來但是我們的碳費確實是他的法規當中所承認可以抵扣的"},{"start":5710.535,"end":5737.333,"text":"請問因為目前歐盟CBAM也是一個過渡期那就是說廠商必須要申報進口產品的碳含量但是目前我們如果按照我們的預設值來申報那到底歐盟會不會認定我們在台灣申報的這樣子的第三方的單位查證呢?"},{"start":5738.438,"end":5738.459,"text":"二、"},{"start":5740.311,"end":5769.137,"text":"目前就是在這個產品在做申報的時候先不用做查證這是一個那第二個就是呢等2026年歐盟實際要收錢就是要去買這個CBAM憑證的時候他的這個產品碳含量才需要查證這是第一點跟委員報告目前不用碳對目前在申報的過程還不用那第二點再跟委員報告就是說未來在真的實際要繳CBAM憑證的時候他只收產品的直接排放"},{"start":5769.657,"end":5770.137,"text":"因為歐盟目前總量管制跟交易還有免費配額："},{"start":5796.71,"end":5800.411,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之"},{"start":5826.454,"end":5845.39,"text":"這個我跟我們報告是我們環境部明年開始就會有一個這個駐歐盟的代表所以我們會跟歐盟去談說認證查驗機構可不可以有可能取得相互認證所以這一塊在歐盟自己的規則還在這個草擬的過程當中我們趕快想要趁這個機會跟他去談"},{"start":5847.051,"end":5871.482,"text":"那就是根據我們經濟部的統計喔,次長有鋼鐵的相關扣件還有鋁製的產業喔它就有2000多家是出口到歐盟去欸那不少都是中小企業那其中有3500家會受到CBAM的影響欸那這個對於我們國內的中小企業有什麼樣子的影響?"},{"start":5872.182,"end":5881.734,"text":"跟委員報告這三應該是本來是有4000多家那後來他們我們有全部跟我們貿易署這邊一起全部調查後來有差不多將近3560幾家就是說他要來接受我們的輔導還有申報"},{"start":5887.361,"end":5891.605,"text":"後來真正申報只有2000應該是2300還是2400這裡面有包含一些貿易商那這個我們全部都已經協助他完成申報了那當然這個某種程度他因為他本來不用繳這個稅他會繳這個稅嘛那我們目前其實在去應該是最近兩年我們針對南部的羅斯羅貿扣件"},{"start":5908.42,"end":5918.25,"text":"這一塊我們是有成立一個專案計畫有全部來協助他把這個碳的含量把它降低下來甚至在上游中鋼那部分我們也有去做了一些處理"},{"start":5920.03,"end":5943.125,"text":"我是想要了解如果目前因為我去了解我們地方的民眾我們也希望說能夠協助小農去讓他們有碳匯然後可以來進行碳交易那增加農民的收入可是目前我看到了相關的環境部你們到底有沒有就這些農民給予協助啊"},{"start":5944.245,"end":5949.888,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果要依照我們的自願減量管理辦法要來取得碳權要先有一個減量方法論那土壤碳匯的這一個議題因為目前國內還沒有減量方法那農業部已經好像打算有在研擬這個減量方法所以我們等這個我們會跟農業部就是加快腳步去看說"},{"start":5966.036,"end":5971.481,"text":"因為現在碳權交易所已經開始了那結果我們的農民、我們的漁民以及我們相關的民眾都沒有辦法申請相關的碳權那在這樣子的情況下就是說環境部你怎麼樣子協助?"},{"start":5991.898,"end":6021.401,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的這個碳交所上架的碳權是2015年之後我們就有做遞換專案那都是比較偏製造業那再來就是自願減量專案因為整個這個投資包括要查驗證它的這個資本跟技術投入比較大所以我們的自願減量管理辦法裡面是有提到說個人沒有辦法申請一定是要透過這個政府機關或者是這個團體來做申請那什麼樣子的可以申請團體的部分"},{"start":6022.541,"end":6048.359,"text":"只要不是個人．比如說他如果成立一個合作社．就是他只要是一個法人．或者是一個機構．他都可以來申請自願檢查專案．對,他就個人不行．對,個人不行．所以只要是農民團體也可以嗎．可以．如果他是有成立一個團體的話．是沒有問題．所以農民團體也可以協助我們的農民．因為你必須要告訴．而且但是現在目前．"},{"start":6049.179,"end":6058.885,"text":"方法論都沒有出來怎麼樣子協助他們對於土壤的碳費這樣子能夠增加他們綠色收益嗎不要讓他們變成就是未來會綠色通膨的這樣子的一個受害者嗎對,農業部的這個土壤的減量方法論我們會加快跟農業部討論怎麼快速的讓他減量方法論可以過因為減量方法論其實國際上我們也希望跟國際是對標的啦那這樣產出的碳權"},{"start":6078.558,"end":6079.399,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":6093.809,"end":6117.359,"text":"就是你現在講的都是關於螺絲控件、鋼鐵相關的但是對於中小企業過去你們有以大代小以及減碳的輔導相關的這樣子的措施但是我認為對於未來中小企業會面臨到的相關的這些綠色的成本怎麼樣子降低你必須要協助他們"},{"start":6118.65,"end":6144.862,"text":"會,會,我們其實剛剛講的那個只是講針對特定的產業,因為它面臨這樣一次比較急迫性,所以有一個比較專案的計畫,那其他的我們會一般性的計畫,我們目前都有減碳或節能的計畫,再來協助這些中小企業,尤其是我們中技術這邊就有相關計畫在執行。好,好,謝謝,謝謝主席。謝謝,謝謝鳳委員非常精準的質詢。來,次長請回座。"},{"start":6147.478,"end":6158.833,"text":"今天聲音比較有磁性下位質詢請李玉玲委員謝謝主席請連長次請經濟部連次長"},{"start":6170.935,"end":6196.805,"text":"市長現在我們因應全球暖化的效應全世界也透過這個管制要來限縮這個二氧化碳的這個排放量那我們特別今天也針對這個碳費的標準環境部也已經公布了要來實施但是很遺憾的就是環境部沒有聽取我們經濟部的建議在議會的B方案裡面你們希望說用這個區間的價格"},{"start":6200.206,"end":6214.092,"text":"讓產業都能夠在這個整個國際上能夠更有競爭力但是沒有被接受了那尤其這個在二氧化碳的2.5公噸每一公噸是300元因為A方案是50元B方案是100元"},{"start":6215.052,"end":6228.6,"text":"在這個情形之下我們看到我們產業未來的財政負擔會更加的沉重那是不是你要跟這個環境部多多的來溝通看用滾動式的這個檢討來做一個調整讓產業這個壓力不會太重跟委員報告其實我們那個在委員會裡面我們的代表有針對這一塊"},{"start":6238.531,"end":6249.937,"text":"來做跟環境部還有相關的委員做溝通那我們也有在建立說像這樣的碳費如果現在實施完之後如果確實是對產業有造成極大影響應該要馬上來進行一些滾動式的調整立刻做修正嘛這樣才能夠幫助產業的這個困境"},{"start":6256.88,"end":6266.922,"text":"那因為本席能夠理解因為你要減少這個碳排未來整個國際的趨勢那也必須要投入一些資源來進行這個減碳的一些方式但是產業來配合我們政府的這個政策的話它需要的是時間跟一些成本但是我們看到我們訂出來的這個我們碳費的這個價格是非常的高那尤其是醫會的方案條件也非常的嚴苛所以造成的產業它"},{"start":6287.468,"end":6312.546,"text":"會發生的就是說他的盈餘啊他拿盈餘來做這些投資的話那他本身在這個減碳轉型式上面的話他拿出他自己很多的盈餘來做他沒有辦法再有餘力來投資在這種情況之下的話他就變成說可能他為了要生存他就外移到其他國家他如果想要留在台灣的話他可能就要停工、要減產"},{"start":6313.767,"end":6333.201,"text":"二、減少被徵收這個碳費．那如果這種情形之下的話．他減產之後的話．他就沒有這麼多的盈餘．可能就會由盈轉到虧．那轉虧的情形之下．他就變成說他必須要用財源的方式．才能夠繼續的營運下去．在這種情形下．你經濟部要怎麼協助他們呢?"},{"start":6333.821,"end":6345.996,"text":"公園報告其實這個我們面對這樣的一個碳費不是現在才發生的啦因為國際上像歐盟跟其他有其他國家我們老早就注意到減碳這個議題所以我們在做減碳的其實已經有做了5、6年的一個節能減碳或是那個溫室氣體"},{"start":6352.219,"end":6371.957,"text":"降低了這樣的一個輔導的計畫那剛才委員有提到說那他如果沒有多餘的錢其實我們有推動一些投融資就針對減碳這一部分尤其在我們中信署這邊我們投入了一些信保甚至是10成、9成的一個信保另外一個就是我們這一次在你給他貸款的意思信保給他貸款來做一些投資這個減碳的一些措施"},{"start":6376.121,"end":6388.346,"text":"利率是低利率然後有做一些利息的他還是要還錢啊對那另外一個第二個就是在租稅優惠我們在產創實施因為今年屆期我們應該是在11月份會送到大院這邊來審查那我們針對這一部分我們特別把節能減碳特別把它拉出來那這一部分如果產業有投入這樣的減碳他是可以享受一些租稅優惠"},{"start":6401.112,"end":6417.004,"text":"所以其實可以降低一些衝擊所以你們沒有辦法用補助的只有一些減稅優惠然後而且給他們一些這個低利貸款而已那再補助有補助就是說如果你廠商你要再去做一些技術提升或剛才講的你要把碳"},{"start":6417.911,"end":6420.454,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":6436.853,"end":6453.892,"text":"對,減碳這一部分去做讓你的員工的職能去做提升這些都需要時間跟成本對,所以我才跟委員報告其實我們做這種減碳不是現在才在做其實之前蔡總統那時候我們一上來市長,你要了解說你們現在所有這些方案來講的話"},{"start":6454.693,"end":6476.207,"text":"你們也有一些經濟部也針對這個未來收碳費你們都有做一些評估的報告雖然說你們說這個物價的話影響的不大但是你不要忘了剛剛電價才在產業調漲了12.5%而且明年的基本這個工資又調到28,590元這些都是他們負擔的財務的問題都會影響他們未來的整個營運狀況這個你們都要給他們關心"},{"start":6484.056,"end":6489.8,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":6507.834,"end":6511.598,"text":"跟我們報告我們這個會先從規劃讓這個進口產品做產品碳含量的申報因為進口商這邊我們可以比照歐盟阿對我們已經有他們很成熟的一個機制了嘛那為什麼會這樣提到因為我們國內已經收了這個碳費表示就是讓產業他的成本能提高了那如果說"},{"start":6528.735,"end":6531.458,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":6546.934,"end":6546.954,"text":"是,對。"},{"start":6571.329,"end":6576.434,"text":"好,這個也是解決這個產業的困境的一部分啦。這個碳關稅、這邊境管理我們還是要協助幫忙好不好。好,那再來就是說因為現在中油跟台電它就是高碳的、高碳量的"},{"start":6587.425,"end":6600.736,"text":"這個一個生化的這個石化的一個部分那所以說那現在中油跟台電虧損上千億上百億都有了在這種情形之下經濟部你會補助他這個碳費嗎"},{"start":6602.982,"end":6621.952,"text":"這個當然我們不會補助他因為這個東西其實那個像台電他現在差不多500萬嘛那如果是他最後而且他是屬於那個你說自主碳排的話你會乘以0.20.2也是0.2就變成本來是要繳15億他現在變成只要繳差不多繳大概要5億、3億全部加起來來數"},{"start":6625.103,"end":6646.495,"text":"全部加起來15億這樣?是啊,所以你要補助嗎?你董事長,他們很辛苦,他們現在已經虧損了,他們都吸收,像你的天然氣14塊錢,民間那個瓦斯桶的話,你只給他8塊錢而已,他都吸收進來了,所以他的費用非常的高,那現在又收碳費,他們就是高碳牌的部分啊。"},{"start":6646.735,"end":6671.843,"text":"如果剛剛講臺電是15、中友是16如果他有通過高碳牌的自主減量計畫那臺電就會從15降到5億然後那個中友差不多是差不多6億左右所以兩個下來因為為什麼會有那個機制就是說他也鼓勵他去做減碳那自主減量計畫如果通過的話他會大幅把那個碳費往下加所以兩位次長"},{"start":6672.783,"end":6702.018,"text":"這些都是本期提醒你們未來收碳費會衍生的一些問題目前中油台電已經在虧損了如果你沒有給他一些補助的話他未來又向人民漲價啦電也漲油也漲那人民會受不了的所以這些提醒你們的問題請您一一的來解決我們也都請他自己本身要好好去做那個檢討OK好謝謝謝謝李議員精確又精彩的質詢來次長請回座下位質詢請陳庭文委員"},{"start":6707.574,"end":6707.594,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6725.704,"end":6740.897,"text":"聶市長我想請教一下就是說我們現在傳統產業在這個區塊他要怎麼去因應我們整個未來碳費徵收所造成的營運成本增加"},{"start":6743.138,"end":6760.307,"text":"其實現在如果就這樣應該是500個場所、270幾家如果就台南地區的話應該是其每有幾個大的場會受到影響大部分的中小企業應該就不太會受到影響"},{"start":6761.638,"end":6767.887,"text":"目前目前我們是依照年排放量達2.5萬噸 61家我們依照的標準因為依這個標準是明年我們1月1號就要開始了嘛"},{"start":6777.159,"end":6802.36,"text":"對,我二就115年才課徵,114開始申報當然當然,就是115年是依照114年整個碳排放量的一個統整數字然後115年再去做課徵嘛所以我們講還是要從114年1月開始開始開始來處理,對不對所以呢在這樣的狀況之下,我們也會隨時去做調整嘛"},{"start":6803.311,"end":6828.389,"text":"對不對,現在是2.5萬,有可能也會再往下,是不是?我們請,順便請次長。我們的那個施次長。是不是?委員好,我們的溫室氣體要申報盤查的對象,我們確實有規劃往下,但是要納到碳費收費可能不會那麼快。不會那麼快。對,不會那麼快。"},{"start":6828.789,"end":6847.263,"text":"重點是說我們要怎麼協助他趕快去因應趕快去轉型我們現在先告訴大家先預知就是希望他未來不要進入到這所謂的一個門檻當中對不對我們當然不希望他們去課徵到這個碳費啊"},{"start":6849.504,"end":6873.278,"text":"這才是我們要達到2050這個完全減碳這樣一個重要的關鍵嘛但是如果是這樣子的前提之下我們要怎麼協助這些中小企業好以2.5萬這樣的一個標準就有臺南有61家好61家那有可能造成衝擊"},{"start":6875.66,"end":6904.771,"text":"那造成衝擊．我們怎麼協助他．那個聯司長各位報告我們其實針對目前已經是達到那個我們現在法定的那個收費的那個門檻二的我們在14年會有一個專案計畫整體針對製造業這500多家500多家270家500個場所我們會全部來協助第一個一定要協助他提到提到自主減量計畫因為你有提自主減量計畫你才可以享受因為這個是一個最大的一個誘因第二個"},{"start":6905.392,"end":6906.596,"text":"我們會針對這500多家我們會來協助他"},{"start":6910.555,"end":6920.877,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":6940.2,"end":6941.801,"text":"我們是用產創平台那個計畫。對,產創平台沒有編入我們正式預算嗎?"},{"start":6949.622,"end":6975.436,"text":"因為我們產創平台是一個大鋪合有二、三十億的經費在那邊那我們是會把他說你有這樣的需求我們會來誘導他來申請這樣的一個計畫用產創平台的這樣的一個預算這是基金還是專案預算那個專案預算對嘛專案預算嘛產創平台的專案預算那明年編多少明年我們多少錢"},{"start":6976.562,"end":6991.538,"text":"預計在這個區塊還是沒有任何上限?有申請上限。對啊,那申請上限多少?我們醫後條例是如果是減碳的話一般是到最高是4千萬。"},{"start":6992.639,"end":7005.462,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、"},{"start":7016.104,"end":7035.899,"text":"三千萬、五百萬,幾萬我都不知道,你協助什麼人?你協助了誰?我們把名單整理一下再給人參考。你協助了誰?然後成效多少?請把這個資料報給我們。那你現在要怎麼去協助臺南這61家?"},{"start":7038.112,"end":7049.841,"text":"因為第一階段他們就達到了就有可能就是如果沒有做自主減量的時候有可能他們就會達到這樣的一個碳排量那可能115年就會被課到"},{"start":7051.098,"end":7055.922,"text":"是的,我們明年開始要協助這61家都提出自主減量計畫。你怎麼協助我要這個報告?你怎麼協助這61家你要去盤點呢?我們會有一個範本,然後每一家廠商進去。這是重點,市長,我要講的就是這樣子。這61家請問,有誰能夠得到你的資訊?如果沒有這樣子要求你們,你們可能"},{"start":7077.341,"end":7089.434,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,我們那個清單都有,我們在環境部的清單都有,我們一定每一家都會進去。我知道,市長我知道清單你們有,我要的是你們可以直接跟他們對接,把你們的資料直接對接,61家直接對接。"},{"start":7093.939,"end":7120.913,"text":"會,我要這些資訊是不是有真正達到他們的手裡然後去做一些技術的協助然後成效如何,我要這些資料好,那個自主減量計畫我們每一家一定要催出來催出來之後我們還會請專家幫他看過看完之後才送到環境部市長不是催,是你應該跟他講我可以提供技術"},{"start":7122.278,"end":7138.541,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7138.848,"end":7158.217,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7158.643,"end":7161.664,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施。．"},{"start":7178.772,"end":7203.054,"text":"那麼我們才有機會再進入到第二階對對對對因為這個部分很明顯嘛他就很清楚一定會對於這個這個碳費的徵收如果沒有去協助他們絕對會轉嫁在一些所謂衝擊中小企業廠商的一個身上然後呢如果在逐年降低的時候"},{"start":7203.755,"end":7227.691,"text":"因為環境部是有這樣的一個思考方向嘛他們要逐年降低嘛才能去達到2050的標準嘛那逐年降低那是不是代表我們第一屆兩萬五這個部分如果沒有處理好你下面要怎麼去繼續這個我們一定要協助廠商一定要處理好所以這個部分我要控管這樣的一個所謂的"},{"start":7228.391,"end":7231.492,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．"},{"start":7248.74,"end":7277.647,"text":"我講的就是臺南市有61家這六十一間你如果做得好誰我相信五百幾間你一定做得好誰所以臺南61家希望隨時把進度給我們你怎麼輔導怎麼讓他們能夠進入到所謂自主減量的部分好 謝謝好 謝謝陳理委委員來 次長請回座我們在鄭正前委員執行結束之後我們休息五分鐘下一位執行請鄭天才委員"},{"start":7291.307,"end":7302.025,"text":"主席、各位委員兩位次長請兩位次長兩位次長好委員好"},{"start":7306.204,"end":7332.839,"text":"氣候變遷因應法第28條第一項規定中央主管機關為達成國家溫室氣體長期減量目標及各期階段管制目標得分階段對下一排放溫室氣體之排放鹽徵收碳費第一款直接排放鹽第二款間接排放鹽"},{"start":7334.225,"end":7355.723,"text":"請問一下這個我們環境部這一次徵收的部分是直接排放員有沒有包含間接排放員還是都有?都有都有就是他我們針對他的這個直接排放跟間接排放都會收就是如果是這個281個廠281個公司"},{"start":7360.267,"end":7388.047,"text":"看這個徵收的費率你們也定了也做了審議了是按照這個你們的估算每年預計將有60億元的碳費收入這個是預計60億其實不多了其實不多這個如果我們看這個全球主要碳排放交易的價格"},{"start":7389.938,"end":7400.858,"text":"這個七四圖如果從2008年到2023年的2月如果我們看這個七四圖我們大概在哪個價位?"},{"start":7403.186,"end":7403.926,"text":"按照這個表"},{"start":7433.908,"end":7462.06,"text":"當這個燃燒化石燃料是氣候變遷化的主要氣動因素占所有二氧化碳排放量的89%和所有溫室氣體排放量的68%所以這個部分是一個參考的一個很重要的一個資料那我們看這個你的報告裡面環境部的報告"},{"start":7463.227,"end":7480.452,"text":"特別提到．日本及韓國的平均化石燃料稅．含製造業在內的所有部門平均．分別為美工盾、二氧化碳．當量新台幣88及962元．"},{"start":7484.161,"end":7504.256,"text":"我國平均化石燃料稅如採這個OECD的定義進行計算．為每公噸二氧化碳當量的331元．以顯著低於日本及韓國．所以這個基本上如果我們從這樣的一個．環境部經過審議這個會議．然後所徵收的這個一年．"},{"start":7514.42,"end":7535.496,"text":"六十億其實真的不多了我們已經比日本、韓國慢了對不對然後又比歐盟更晚,晚多少年?歐盟是2005年開始有總量管制跟交易現在已經2024然後我們要徵收是什麼時候?"},{"start":7538.611,"end":7563.864,"text":"我們明年的排放量開始收費後年開始收費對,後年才收了所以又慢了兩年了所以這個部分這個未來這個整個在審議的過程真的是不高重點是說在後面7月變遷印法第33條訂了這個碳費"},{"start":7568.831,"end":7589.417,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長就:「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務．及政府協助企業因應徵服務。"},{"start":7599.752,"end":7626.398,"text":"那這個錢到底應該要發給誰?就算是給了縣市,縣市要給誰?所以這個部分,這個環境部啊,非常非常的重要,必須要去討回因應,不然的話又成為一個一個,是不是真正達到了這個,"},{"start":7629.452,"end":7655.352,"text":"氣候變遷因應法當初增加這些條文的目的這個很重要所以這個部分我們看2020年森林貢獻的溫室氣體移除量為2190.5公噸二氧化碳當量也可抵減全國碳排放量的7.6%"},{"start":7658.986,"end":7684.248,"text":"這個是根據台灣2022年發布的國家溫室氣體排放清澈的報告不是我自己寫的這個是這個報告所提出來的所以這個部分就是環境部啊因為你訂的不是那麼明確"},{"start":7685.762,"end":7705.58,"text":"怎麼樣再去給地方政府的時候或是你自己要留存的部分要怎麼去運用實際上應該要發給的部分你們現在有一個方向嗎?跟委員報告因為剛剛委員有把那個氣候法第33條的這個13款"},{"start":7707.93,"end":7712.215,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境"},{"start":7727.031,"end":7739.521,"text":"第二就是有一些調試的措施或調試工作我們也中央跟地方一起來做那再來就是公正轉型那如果說是以碳會來講因為比如說碳會我們現在有一些關於自然碳會的減量方法論在申請審議當中那如果一旦通過其實碳會我們也會鼓勵企業有方法論可以來申請"},{"start":7750.93,"end":7752.731,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":7773.004,"end":7789.603,"text":"那增加碳會的功能其實就是減量的活動的一項那因此呢如果這個有一些增加碳會功能比如說先是政府或者是我們中央的這個相關部會有在增加碳會的這個工作上面我們碳費也應該是往那個方向來補助好,非常謝謝"},{"start":7794.371,"end":7806.622,"text":"上次我也提過這個資料2001年英國的生態經濟協博士皮爾斯說一個岩石嶺的碳匯價值一公頃2000美金這是2001年現在已經2024了到後年是2026了所以這個部分"},{"start":7818.274,"end":7837.855,"text":"就回歸到法律好了,回歸到法律。一、第一條,最快,第一條,期貨變成依法,第一條。第三條,原住民族穩定轉型。謝謝。第二條,原住民族權益,法律隊有規定,合作依法行政。第二條,"},{"start":7840.672,"end":7851.743,"text":"嚴祝民主共同推動這個自然碳會。好,謝謝。所以這個部分,請環境部務必依法行政。好,謝謝。來,謝謝鄭天才委員。來,次長請回座。消費質詢請鄭正前委員。"},{"start":7868.722,"end":7874.302,"text":"呃,謝謝主席,我想請經濟部連次長還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。"},{"start":7881.131,"end":7897.963,"text":"非常感謝主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃"},{"start":7899.184,"end":7926.075,"text":"那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費"},{"start":7927.355,"end":7948.126,"text":"那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以,對不對?那可是你提到一個就是,因為整個碳費徵收的狀態,它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題,是不是?"},{"start":7949.307,"end":7969.591,"text":"對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道,那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會常駐在歐盟,那溝通可能會比較直接,或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行……所以我們,你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免,還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制,可能會有折扣?"},{"start":7970.091,"end":7979.861,"text":"因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛 對不對所以還在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊"},{"start":7989.531,"end":8006.431,"text":"所以我覺得當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例"},{"start":8007.472,"end":8028.504,"text":"在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下．碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%．到43.04%．非常非常的高．所以碳費對於整個產業的影響．肯定是非常大的．然後你這邊提到說．在三種情況之下的時候．它會盪到1.14%．到2.95%．第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫．達到目標．但這部分是經濟部這邊在做．對不對"},{"start":8034.907,"end":8063.706,"text":"然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊 對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通"},{"start":8064.847,"end":8073.668,"text":"因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分"},{"start":8075.049,"end":8094.743,"text":"跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的申報"},{"start":8097.945,"end":8104.75,"text":"二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品"},{"start":8113.337,"end":8115.258,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":8142.317,"end":8158.891,"text":"三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍"},{"start":8166.038,"end":8188.389,"text":"一點九二倍 非常非常的高那我看到說他們在提出這個部分的時候呢那台電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說台灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候台灣現在的電價是最高的了"},{"start":8188.729,"end":8189.029,"text":"臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度"},{"start":8210.973,"end":8213.754,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":8234.161,"end":8253.9,"text":"零點四九四嘛OK齁那算起來的時候呢整個台積電的時候呢就會有一百一千兩百三十八萬噸的洩漏度的排放量如果一噸三百塊來說的時候就是超過37億元的一個成本齁那我要講這個部分的時候呢是我想特別去問一下次長齁就是"},{"start":8255.68,"end":8281.931,"text":"我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嘛我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範"},{"start":8283.038,"end":8303.274,"text":"只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是"},{"start":8305.395,"end":8326.329,"text":"所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高"},{"start":8326.989,"end":8352.877,"text":"那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟那個進階排放量只有三成的部分的時候可能到時候會併在臺電這個成本裡頭可是它對於企業成本肯定也是一個必須要去考量的所以我希望說就是經濟部這邊的時候因為你這邊你的報告第5頁提到說針對臺灣在此行西奔的部分你希望說可以先啟動對高碳洩漏風險進口產品實施類似"},{"start":8356.218,"end":8380.761,"text":"碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分"},{"start":8381.401,"end":8407.674,"text":"我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度啦所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到OK喔我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分確實都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝政經政政前委員來次長請回座"},{"start":8410.388,"end":8411.373,"text":"不過我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8717.492,"end":8718.318,"text":"兩位次長都還沒到"},{"start":8764.798,"end":8777.671,"text":"來,那我們繼續開會。那下一位請我們召委齁,邱志偉主席來發言。好,謝謝主席,有請兩位次長,連次長。來,請兩位次長。"},{"start":8784.824,"end":8807.479,"text":"我們先看這邊資料在路透社有一位針對九位分析師的報告就是說他2027他們平均碳價的預測遠高於現在2027大概就是兩年之後到111歐元大概台幣將近4000塊那目前美頓大概預估是63歐元左右大概台幣2100"},{"start":8809.468,"end":8823.058,"text":"如果按照這個趨勢我們所有產品要輸入這個歐盟如果即便我們有科生碳費但是你還要跟CBAM做接軌對不對那接軌你的價差不能太大"},{"start":8824.434,"end":8846.208,"text":"我在阿波波會發給你評證所以這部分你們要了解這個趨勢這個碳費對企業造成的壓力你們看中鋼就好了中鋼在高雄對不對那中鋼它的排放量將2000萬噸如果你現在用300塊的基準來看那它的碳費一年如果從2025開始這個開增有58億那鋼鐵業又不好"},{"start":8853.322,"end":8867.049,"text":"中間的稅後餘裕．年度稅後餘裕才不到17億稅後淨利．那相當於他淨利的3倍．超過3倍．這貪費制度對高碳牌的產業．會造成嚴重的財務衝擊．"},{"start":8868.939,"end":8895.999,"text":"那這是上游那中下游怎麼辦?它一定會轉嫁成成本嘛它轉嫁成本你上游的大型的企業可以透過成本增加來轉嫁給中小這個下游、中下游的企業而中下游企業又是中小型居多它那個成本的轉嫁非常不容易比如說會看到工具機、扣件、螺絲中小型它要怎麼轉嫁?"},{"start":8897.359,"end":8906.727,"text":"這變成他必須要提高這個產品價格,變成他競爭力就不足。所以建保文啊,我覺得經濟部應該要有一個完整評估這碳費徵收之後對各個產業的相關的財務的衝擊。"},{"start":8911.857,"end":8931.906,"text":"我覺得這部分你們沒有做,市長你們有做嗎?根本沒有,這部分我們有做很詳細的分析,所以剛剛為什麼像剛才委員講的鋼鐵它本身譬如說如果是最後談到所以才有那個那個優惠匯率嘛,優惠匯率,如果優惠匯率下來其實它的衝擊就沒有像之前的那麼大,就省一次百分之2.8,那當然"},{"start":8933.747,"end":8951.304,"text":"大的一定是會轉嫁給小的所以說我們會做兩層一個是大的這邊像剛才講的會自主減量計畫我們一定要請他來提提的時候我們會協助他達成那個減量目標就等於衝擊就降小那他轉下去的那個幅度就不會那麼大"},{"start":8951.764,"end":8967.263,"text":"從他姓友都大跟小而已,大中小,那這個如果這種各種狀況都會造成說這個所謂的中小型企業的這個成本提高,成本提高你們有沒有相關的差異化的補貼的方案?"},{"start":8968.451,"end":8992.382,"text":"我們沒有所謂的差異化是針對下游這些中小企業我們有專案的專案是剛才我特別提到是像南部這些因為有雙重的壓力像CBAM或是國內這樣的所以會針對有一些產業比較特殊型的產業我們有特別去做那其他的就是比較一般性的專案做不到這個不只影響到上游、中下游整個產業供應鏈它的這個都會帶動連動的這個漲價"},{"start":8996.834,"end":9002.516,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":9022.942,"end":9042.064,"text":"差距太大我們怎麼辦?因為其實歐盟要實施CBAM的這個目的就是要去平衡他自己境內的生產者因為他的總量管制跟交易的成本那因為他們從2005年已經實施很久了所以他們的成本包括他們的發電業全部都是要拍賣"},{"start":9043.165,"end":9066.537,"text":"所以他們所面臨的碳價會希望進口商也要承擔就跟我們現在國內產業呼籲是一樣所以我們會對我們如果這個差額很大我們要補但是一開始因為歐盟的製造業也像我們一樣有免費配額所以他會先扣掉他的免費配額的程度才所以那種初期對我們中小型的這些扣借影響不大"},{"start":9067.938,"end":9082.305,"text":"可能初期因為它那個降免費配額的那個比例一開始先從降零點降這個二點幾一兩趴所以大概可能初期前三四年影響還不會那麼高另外這個經濟部有個乾坤大挪移的計畫乾坤大挪移這個有關碳洩漏什麼叫碳洩漏?市長"},{"start":9095,"end":9123.175,"text":"我這樣講啦不管產業是不是外移他現在已經是在境內了我們在台灣的我們也一定要協助他去做減碳啦沒有 乾坤大奴也就是說我們面對碳費挑戰比較大的這些企業我們外移到比較有競爭力的這個國家什麼叫有競爭力有碳費競爭力的國家啦並透過以小代大然後符合他的部長的境外關內的政策這個部分是不是有"},{"start":9126.154,"end":9149.834,"text":"因為他如果是移到剛才委員講的他碳費比較有利的地方他如果今天要做出口他不會是只有做到那個他如果要做出口一小代大就整個三峽要刷那裡然後又進外關內高碳排的這些產業要挪到國外碳費比較低的地方國家去"},{"start":9150.675,"end":9156.785,"text":"那就符合碳洩漏啦,那市長你的想法呢?對經濟部的立場?這經濟部的立場喔?環境部的立場如何?"},{"start":9161.277,"end":9186.517,"text":"這個跟委員報告是說其實像這個所謂我們現在有高碳洩漏風險的產業鋼鐵石化它要外移的機率可能沒有那麼高因為整個的這個設廠還有整個的這個生產成本的考慮碳費應該只是其中一項所以我相信這個都是一些我們可是乾坤大農也就是要把這些高碳牌的這個產業移到國外去啊不是嗎那個市長"},{"start":9188.639,"end":9212.736,"text":"我想這個也是我們這個產業會希望做過台版的CBAM。你們兩個部位環境部跟經濟部在立場上面是基本上對立的喔。我認為啊,你們不會贊成這個經濟部的這個乾坤大挪移計畫。你會贊成嗎?市長。沒有,我們是希望就是競速研擬台版的CBAM,讓這個高碳洩漏風險不要出去啦,不要覺得說要移動。"},{"start":9213.736,"end":9234.088,"text":"而且其實東南亞很多國家未來要實施探架。海版CBAM是你們在制定嗎?海版CBAM我們跟經濟部、財政部一直要跨部會討論。那多久會出來?明年可能會先從要看怎麼申報開始。就像歐盟現在在申報。那海版CBAM計畫就沒有所謂的乾坤大挪移了啊?就不需要乾坤大挪移不是嗎?"},{"start":9235.511,"end":9260.898,"text":"這個是要不要把產業帶到那個比較有利的一個海外去?我想請問一下,乾坤大農業真的是有這個計畫嗎?是有這個計畫還是構想?有這個計畫還是沒有?在研歷中?在研歷中?具體做法還不知道?還在討論所以已經公布這個推動乾坤大農業計畫"},{"start":9262.551,"end":9262.751,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。"},{"start":9298.328,"end":9314.639,"text":"好,消費執行請蔡議員。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請經濟部次長還有能文局由署長。署長。委員好。次長。"},{"start":9315.762,"end":9328.889,"text":"那今天事實上整個媒體事實上大家聚焦在這個臺原公司齁那在臺南以及嘉義他們的這個綠能涉及到的這個弊案那"},{"start":9330.051,"end":9354.253,"text":"就我那也是在選區嘛一組的其中有一場那我想要請教的就是說這樣的一個弊案發生了這樣的狀況那現在當然正在調查中那我想請教一下經濟部呢你們對於當時這個案件這個發生那你們的掌握的程度是怎樣我可不可以請那個因為那時候我比較"},{"start":9355.114,"end":9378.511,"text":"那報告委員那這個案子我們當時我們掌握到之後我們有做一些調查之後我們把相關的資料也都直接主動移送到他調查是在什麼時候在112年的時候112年對在去年的時候去年你們開始調查那就台研公司呢台研公司他們的內部調查對那個內部調查之後他們也主動"},{"start":9379.349,"end":9397.274,"text":"提送相關．把相關資料提送到．當時臺原公司董事長是．陳董事長陳啟玉陳董事長陳啟玉的時候那之後調查的是在吳榮輝董事長的時代嗎?欸不是那時候他吳董事長已經離開了吳董事長離開已經離開對那你們有做內部調查對是對那內部調查後你們這個調查資料有送給檢調嗎?"},{"start":9402.043,"end":9419.429,"text":"對,台驗公司有把相關的資料送到檢調單位。送給檢調單位。對,是。好,那我們當然這一件我覺得就是勿枉勿重啦。是。那該偵辦就應該要好好偵辦。是。那可是我想要再,好,那你可以。我們會隨便配合,對,是。好,我接下來要請教這個次長跟署長。"},{"start":9420.609,"end":9447.926,"text":"所以事實上這樣相關的這個綠能的這個產業那尤其是發生在像我們這邊的漁電共生那我一直有在救教經濟部的就是說如果這樣的綠能產業發生弊案的時候它的後端處理是怎樣這個弊案有可能是說像這一件可能涉及到工程弊案那我也有在在意的漁電共生如果發生甲氧魚"},{"start":9448.871,"end":9455.278,"text":"沒有養魚,但是他一樣在發電,他的處罰機制到底是什麼?"},{"start":9456.055,"end":9477.966,"text":"好不好,還是這位署長來說?是,跟委員報告,那如果是漁電共生,它當然是養殖為主,然後綠能加值。所以,有關於漁業養殖這件事情,農業部,然後還有地方的漁業主管局會去查核。對,會查核我知道,我是說,如果,署長,署長我跟你說啦,如果真的是養殖為主,那發電為輔齁,我應該在我的選區齁,我早上會聽到很多人說,喔!"},{"start":9481.628,"end":9489.594,"text":"我現在就是要退這裏的綠能公司來退他們的錢我現在的工作就是要退他們錢我好少聽到我幾乎沒有聽到還是說他們都是請外部人、請專家去養魚這個專家都住在遙遠的地方所以我在跑選區的時候都遇不到"},{"start":9501.653,"end":9525.562,"text":"我真的很少聽到所以我要說的就是說像這個是屬於工程弊案啊工程弊案當然是由司法來認定我今天說的發生了很多但是有的其他弊案是他作弊他作弊也許還沒有到達刑事的一個強鑒刑事的強度但是他作弊啊很明顯他的養魚今天沒有農業單位啦市長你有沒有聽過買魚金這個名詞"},{"start":9530.65,"end":9547.954,"text":"你不要聽過阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿"},{"start":9560.424,"end":9576.713,"text":"那這件事怎麼...有沒有罰則啦?有沒有處罰?而且署長我記得我在上個...我上一屆我就跟你建議過了處罰就很簡單啊他的發電不要給他他沒有養育當年度他的發電都不可以拿"},{"start":9578.359,"end":9596.777,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個事情後來有跟農業部有協調過就是如果他沒有養殖適時經過限期改善不改善的話他撤銷農業許可我們就撤銷電業許可就直接撤銷電業許可啊撤銷電業許可那又分為幾個層次啊第一個就是說那個電費的部分勒"},{"start":9597.372,"end":9613.654,"text":"就如果他的電頁執照被撤銷當然整個就沒有了整個我們都沒收嘛所以這個就有一套的管理的機制一定要有養殖事實那沒有電頁許可之後呢那是指把他的整個案場沒收?你怎麼講給我明?直接講給我明?對,那個案場就直接收歸國有?"},{"start":9615.015,"end":9638.804,"text":"還是怎樣啊?就是你們要講清楚這個法則怎樣?這樣才會讓大家去警覺到說我們現在要在這個地方投入魚電共生我們不要用這種投機式的那個明明的說養殖才是一個重點結果看起來沒有人把養殖當作重點我真的沒有遇到說我要在這個魚電共生場好好來養殖沒有啦 真的沒有啦好不好?"},{"start":9642.379,"end":9669.055,"text":"所以我覺得市長這件事我們要要緊啦要要緊其實我們現在在跟農業部也在討論說要是不是因為有像委員講的這樣的一個事情我們現在也在跟農業部在討論說是不是採用一些新的機制避免這樣的一個情況發生這樣子我們現在目前這個機制正在眼裡中市長我相信你也知道站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能"},{"start":9670.115,"end":9698.134,"text":"但是我們覺得說我們一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚。這樣我們在推展綠能的時候才不會被有很多投機的或者是他是用很多不法的手段然後來達到他們有發展他們投入綠能的一個效果。就既然這個地方我們強調養魚為主的漁電共生,這樣我們一開始他的計畫就要好啊。他到底要怎麼跟地方的漁民來做合作還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣。"},{"start":9700.295,"end":9712.563,"text":"這事情都還沒有講清楚結果大家一窩蜂在投入現在我看起來真的我感覺起來有很多真的沒有在養魚啦"},{"start":9713.719,"end":9713.899,"text":"應該是長7%吧?"},{"start":9738.078,"end":9744.268,"text":"我要查一下,鋼鐵是要漲7%嗎?鋼鐵是...他有調漲到對,他有調漲,只是說他是減半調漲我要再查一下"},{"start":9749.389,"end":9766.603,"text":"我來查一下我直接說啦,事實上我是代為去轉述一些業者的一個心聲因為鋼鐵業這幾年事實上遇到的是包括中國這邊的一些打壓事實上我們這幾年來鋼鐵業的"},{"start":9770.001,"end":9792.588,"text":"成長是不好的他們的這個獲利是差的所以這一次的漲電價事實上對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊但是他們現在應該是沒有被認定是在減半的一個行業別裡面所以我想這部分我們經濟部可能再斟酌一下是不是在於說要調漲電價這個應該是"},{"start":9795.089,"end":9809.774,"text":"為了整個反映台電的一個成本但是對於個別產業別他遇到衝擊的時候是不是我們可以處理考慮的再細膩一些這樣好不好好我們看用什麼方式來協助他們好不好好謝謝蔡議員堅準質詢來次長先回座謝謝下一位質詢請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":9823.37,"end":9841.916,"text":"好,謝謝召委。請連次長跟施次長。請連次長跟施次長。好,兩位次長好。我先請連次長了。這一次這個碳費的價格,碳定價的價格,那外界有認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家。連次長怎麼看?"},{"start":9845.465,"end":9869.74,"text":"因為本來我們是在碳會審慮我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手啦對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高"},{"start":9871.247,"end":9894.589,"text":"所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好 那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種"},{"start":9895.285,"end":9902.973,"text":"然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說"},{"start":9903.7,"end":9906.221,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及"},{"start":9927.493,"end":9951.5,"text":"整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊"},{"start":9952.9,"end":9954.883,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":9969.819,"end":9997.941,"text":"面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個"},{"start":9999.292,"end":10000.367,"text":"呃..."},{"start":10000.971,"end":10008.037,"text":"這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣"},{"start":10030.775,"end":10031.896,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":10062.035,"end":10080.863,"text":"這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。那另外,開徵這樣的碳費的對國營事業的部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?"},{"start":10088.885,"end":10096.734,"text":"因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的"},{"start":10097.659,"end":10118.588,"text":"往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理"},{"start":10127.412,"end":10150.508,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些"},{"start":10151.408,"end":10155.99,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施"},{"start":10175.192,"end":10199.414,"text":"獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入．會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?"},{"start":10201.206,"end":10209.327,"text":"因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補"},{"start":10210.545,"end":10232.945,"text":"第二個就是,其實我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較那日本、韓國、新加坡他們收進來的這個碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是會希望優先用在減量那甚至有一些地區他會需要很大的這個調適的資金"},{"start":10234.767,"end":10247.184,"text":"那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作、減量計畫、減量技術"},{"start":10248.547,"end":10268.118,"text":"那還有這個調適啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候常常一進到後來"},{"start":10269.219,"end":10269.62,"text":"我認為這樣才能夠實質的有效去協助。"},{"start":10288.959,"end":10310.531,"text":"那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善他的"},{"start":10310.951,"end":10334.194,"text":"直接協助他們這個這個減碳的部分我認為才能達到政策的目標不要再用到很偏遠很大水庫的概念上好不好請兩位次長要朝這個方向好嗎?是是,謝謝委員謝謝好,謝謝那位委員非常精準有效率的質詢可以稱為楷模來,下位質詢請劉許廷委員"},{"start":10343.919,"end":10345.621,"text":"好,謝謝主席。經濟部次長有請。請連次長。好。嘿。"},{"start":10356.389,"end":10385.787,"text":"市長吳安今天討論碳費的部分當然大家現在都在討論因為看起來比較具體的是歐盟的CBAM的機制2023年10月開始做申報那預計到2026年開始啟程對不對這個啟程相對明確但恐怕世界各國在施行相關的這個碳邊境的這樣子的一個機制的恐怕也不是只有CBAM一套系統比如說美國好了它就有這個Clean Competition Act這叫做清潔競爭法案它其實就是所謂美國版的CBAM"},{"start":10387.088,"end":10404.102,"text":"那個...這個次長對於這個法案的進步有沒有了解?所以我知道因為我那時候在擔任標準局局長的時候就在貫徹這個案子對但是這個案子現在好像有點稍微偏頂一下你們有沒有我只要問簡單先問啦你們有沒有掌握他的修法期程因為他的國會如果還沒有通過當然就不會執行對可是我要提醒的是他如果執行喔他不像CBAM還有三年緩衝期喔"},{"start":10405.003,"end":10422.698,"text":"他若一執行他本來預估是2020就直接要開始課﹖而且從範圍的比較上來講他也不是只是像歐盟一樣先從比如說水泥啊鋼鐵開始他是連電子零組件跟電動車相關產業他都涵蓋在內所以我希望第一我提醒經濟部對於他這個修法進度要提早掌握好不好這不要"},{"start":10423.518,"end":10447.316,"text":"因為我們現在討論都還是CBAM的範圍但不會只有CBAM這世界各國的相關的進度都要有所掌握這本是第一個提醒喔第二個回到CBAM的這個題目來做探討現在是六大類嘛對不對鋼鐵、水泥、鋁、化肥、氫還有肥料肥料、化肥嘛我剛剛講化肥還有氫跟電力嘛這六大類是CBAM優先要處理的這個項目其中跟我國相關的比較多是哪一種哪幾種類型"},{"start":10448.337,"end":10461.284,"text":"主要是鋼鐵跟它的下游的扣件、金屬製品扣件是後來加進來的。那其他的像鋁、水泥、肥料這些我們都很少見。相對少,跟歐盟直接有貿易相關。應該是鋼鐵、鋼石、鋼纜、螺絲等等相關產業。"},{"start":10466.267,"end":10484.836,"text":"所以他其實你現在其實我們從國內產業的分析你就可以初階段的瞭解哪些產業受到衝擊最大那今天大部分委員都關心就是碳定價的問題也就是碳費怎麼做銜接這當然很重要但本期要關心的是碳盤查的進度我為什麼要講碳盤查的進度呢是因為如果你沒有辦法自己算出來叫做所謂的"},{"start":10486.477,"end":10505.891,"text":"這個實際含碳排放量嘛你用CBAM的標準你自己算得出來就用實際的量去算對不對你如果算不出來的時候你什麼都沒教的時候歐盟的CBAM機制就叫設定含碳排放量嘛也就是歐盟境內的最高排放標準那個就會造成很大的衝擊啊所以我認為在討論定價跟銜接之前非常重要的其實是碳盤查的進度啦"},{"start":10506.511,"end":10526.16,"text":"我們如果沒有辦法推動每一個企業都去做到實際排放量的計算你好歹也要有一個國家平均排放量對不對所以政府在裡面是有角色的好我現在要問了這個我們剛剛講鋼鐵相關的產業總共幾家產業受到衝擊大型企業跟中小企業佔比分別是多少請問經濟部有沒有數字這個我們有去其實大型企業就是剛才講的"},{"start":10526.8,"end":10534.026,"text":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環境部首長、環"},{"start":10544.895,"end":10562.686,"text":"每一家都跑過了?對那我沒有在報告裡看到碳盤查的進度有有有,碳盤查我們應該是不是每一家都希望我們進去做碳盤查應該是做到將近七成左右你現在這幾家對,你講七成的進度我希望你會後提供一個完整的報告就是說針對第一波受到高衝擊的產業你的碳盤查的進度是什麼?"},{"start":10564.787,"end":10592.268,"text":"我們國家未來是要有效的輔導這些受到衝擊的產業去讓它完成自己可以算出實際含碳排量還是說我國家要因為實際上操作有些困難因為它有技術門檻等等我至少要有一個國家平均含碳量的這樣一個計算而且我們每一家我們貿易署也都找美國的那個法律專家欸!歐盟的法律專家針對這個怎麼去弄有沒有時間就碳盤查的部分有沒有一個計算完成的時間表"},{"start":10594.946,"end":10621.026,"text":"欸我們教過之後他就已經是完成了嗎?好那你就把會後提供詳細的報告因為2026年起徵之前嘛你現在甚至都要申報了這個我們把資料送給委員好不好好不好這個碳盤查輔導的速度一定要加快我們才能夠算出真正的經濟衝擊嘛除了技術科技之外我們也有協助其他行業的來做碳盤查這個我希望在這樣的報告裡其實要看到碳盤查的進度啦請會後提供可以嗎?好謝謝市長辛苦了"},{"start":10621.946,"end":10649.058,"text":"來,謝謝牛許迪委員,非常有效率的質詢來,次長請回座來,下一位質詢請王宏威委員好,謝謝主席,我請我們連次長第一部連次長還有我們中郵董事長中郵李董事長台電今天是副總是吧?台電副總"},{"start":10656.759,"end":10657.222,"text":"委員好好"},{"start":10660.336,"end":10688.883,"text":"好 市長就是有關於碳費的徵收其實產業界其實都非常的擔心以現在來講的話當然我們是先集中500家就是比較大型的產業但是接下來難免這個產業的那個家屬會越來越多那我們的環境部長說他說啊這個碳費的收費標準其實對產業來講就像針扎一下"},{"start":10692.564,"end":10710.591,"text":"但是我們的前經濟部長王美花部長說我們臺灣的碳費現在是高於日本、韓國、中國那麼對於鋼鐵石化水泥業的壓力非常非常的大那所以請問一下次長我們到底應該聽環境部長說的話呢還是我們前經濟部長說的話呢"},{"start":10715.093,"end":10738.133,"text":"應該是中間啦,我要解釋一下啦,因為確實如果是300塊,不是不是機靈,應該如果是300塊,就是像王前部長講壓力大如山啦,但是後來這中間我們跟環境部在討論過程中有做一些配套措施,這些措施一做下去應該也不是說稍微扎一下不痛啦,也是會痛啦。"},{"start":10740.073,"end":10760.578,"text":"對,並不是像環境部長講的這麼輕鬆啦那我為什麼請中油跟台電的董事長跟副總那剛才我也注意到李玉玲委員也有特別問到說中油大概是16億以目前的碳費如果那個配套做價做6億左右好,先等一下以現在來講16億,台電15億5億多"},{"start":10765.959,"end":10788.168,"text":"而且呢,經濟部並沒有要給他補貼嘛,對不對?要你想辦法去減排。所以呢,在上個禮拜啊,院委同樣質詢在我們衛環,我們的這個經濟部長也跟我講說,台電如果很努力減碳,就可以達到只要交5億的碳費。好,副總。"},{"start":10789.088,"end":10807.215,"text":"可能嗎?來,副總,可能嗎?委員好,臺電本身的減碳牌的自主性減碳,我們現在都已經在啟動。不是,可不可能,像他講的,你2026就要繳勒?是,這個是自主性減量,臺電在這個區塊裡面,"},{"start":10814.417,"end":10842.451,"text":"應該是可以做到這個從15億降到5億。我不曉得你們如何能做到。其實我們的立法院的預算中心報告就已經特別提到,其實很多人都提到,因為我們現在的發電燃料是仰賴進口,然後火力的這個發電的占比高達八成之多。我們怎麼如何減碳,如何自主,然後達到5億。"},{"start":10844.451,"end":10861.159,"text":"那個跟委員做個說明我時間很短是是是我們從效率效率提高我跟你們報告這個減碳跟那個燃料無關他這次台電客是他自身用用電的這一塊所以跟那個燃料那個無關所以他自身的用電這一塊"},{"start":10862.219,"end":10864.822,"text":"請問一下以現在的碳費標準是不是可以確保不會影響我們的油電價格?能不能?來次長講"},{"start":10884.625,"end":10911.565,"text":"就目前如果一個是五億、一個是六億應該是不應該影響可是現在不是五億、六億阿你們還很努力阿如果以十五億、十六億來講如果以十五億、十六億會不會影響油電價格我認為不應該轉價不應該,你可不可以承諾因為經濟部因為環境部首長說不要問我阿要問那個經濟部阿可以承諾嗎如果減碳是五億、六億那這個東西本來就他們要自己吸收不過以現在來講你可不可以承諾嗎一句話"},{"start":10913.322,"end":10928.07,"text":"我認為不應該轉嫁你認為不應該轉嫁但是你不敢承諾這也許是今天經濟部長都不來的一個主要原因不要現在講那麼好我們最擔心的會轉嫁給我們的消費者這個我們會把關我們會把關好 謝謝王宏偉委員來次長請回座消費諮詢請洪孟開委員"},{"start":10943.14,"end":10966.501,"text":"主席,謝謝。請連次長跟施次長。請連次長、施次長。好,連次長,我先請教。有沒有看到這兩天有個新聞,因為我們這個核三廠二號機的一個稅休,而新聞就有講說全台灣有98%火力發電?有看到嗎?有,我有看到,我有看到這個。"},{"start":10968.188,"end":10987.744,"text":"火力發電當時蔡英文政府講說要二十、三十、五十非核家園二十的再生能源、三十的燃煤、五十的燃氣那就沒有想到沒有告訴我們的是有可能有再生能源跳票以外還有有一些時間是根本再生能源想發還發不出來,是不是這樣?我現在想請教一下"},{"start":10993.237,"end":11012.348,"text":"太陽能現在占比超過百分之十幾的一個狀態晚上夜間沒有辦法發電那是不是未來有專家就想是說每天可能有超過十個小時只要是夜間的話會有百分之九十的火力發電是不是真的?因為那個河山廠現在正在稅休喔是啊那你河山廠不是之後要停業了嗎?那也差不多"},{"start":11013.589,"end":11039.611,"text":"二號機現在還在稅休維修工期是41天維修工期41天但你不是預計明年要除役嗎那我現在只是問的是說明年的非核家園當時跟我們講很好聽20、30、50所以我們認為是百分之八十八成的火力發電但現在原來你的再生能源有一半的時間24小時裡面有12個小時只要沒有太陽的話你也發不了電如果說風力也弱水力也弱的話"},{"start":11040.211,"end":11060.096,"text":"所以你可能會有98%的火力發電,是不是?報告委員,確實再生能源、光電跟風電有間歇性問題所以這部分我們會透過一些儲能的方法來解決這樣的間歇性問題儲能的方法你還是沒有不符合比例啊所以我只想問,有專家講說,我要次長親口告訴我一下"},{"start":11060.876,"end":11087.843,"text":"有專家講未來非核加原子要核電廠除役之後是有可能9成以上每天超過10小時9成以上是火力發電是不是我覺得不應該會有9成以上那不然多少因為現在你的數字推估是多少8成以上是確定了嗎因為是30的燃煤50的燃氣嘛8成會有但是因為在燃煤我們現在已經超過15%、16%左右了所以不會有那晚間呢你的15%、16%裡面太陽能光電發佔多少"},{"start":11090.564,"end":11105.474,"text":"公文報告太陽光電白天發電我們透過儲能那個儲在電池裡面到時候再調度出來這個不能算說是那個火力發電的量也是試算那個再生能源的量"},{"start":11105.794,"end":11105.874,"text":"我這樣報告?"},{"start":11128.104,"end":11147.074,"text":"還有我們的水利抽蓄的齁水利抽蓄此時此刻佔多少水利?水利發電那我現在是講說此時此刻水利佔多少水利發電?一趴本席剛剛已經上來的時候查了水利目前此時此刻一趴風力發電此時此刻兩趴所以你將水利影響風力只是自我打臉好 來沒關係 次長"},{"start":11150.236,"end":11155.524,"text":"有要補充資料我歡迎會後給我補充但是本席要看到的是真實的數據來那個施市長"},{"start":11161.445,"end":11182.654,"text":"我們現在推動這個碳費的部分但有沒有看到現在民間已經開始有ESG的近鄰永續管理師課程但是很多人講說這個課程可能沒有取得國內外認證讓民眾白花錢甚至會有碳費的這個空調系統購入要數百萬的替換但問環境部才知沒這個事那代表是說"},{"start":11183.154,"end":11183.974,"text":"那有沒有注意到這個亂象?那這個亂象要怎麼解決呢?"},{"start":11211.488,"end":11226.358,"text":"一方面環境部是管理單位一方面經濟部可能有相關因為經濟部為什麼會跟你比較相關是因為很多企業可能會不管是病急亂投醫不管是他想要去了解想要ESG的這個永續師但沒想到他根本沒有認證"},{"start":11227.637,"end":11244.718,"text":"那這是哪一個單位要管理?我們未來會成立一個綠領人才的平台那把各部會其實比較官方的這個訓練環境部主導?對對對什麼時候會成立?我們現在還在跟各部會要做收集資料應該明年年初會有一個平台的雛型出來"},{"start":11245.259,"end":11271.94,"text":"好,本席希望這一個規劃也給本席一份會後資料因為這一個亂象其實已經從5月到現在但是感覺起來是因為碳費的一個收徵而更加加劇所以希望主管單位能夠盡速好不好,謝謝好,謝謝馮孟海委員來,次長請回座,下一位約仁芝,約仁芝,約仁芝,約仁芝不在下一位資訊請伍麗華委員"},{"start":11284.556,"end":11287.56,"text":"謝謝主席,有請經濟部和環境部兩位次長"},{"start":11296.557,"end":11325.425,"text":"兩位次長好我們都看到新聞了那碳有價的時代來臨了我非常關心我們原住民族人要如何發展自然碳會所以呢我在八月份的時候也跟幾位委員一起辦了一個原鄉碳會ESG工藝平台的公聽會您可以看到照片參與的人非常的踴躍爆滿為什麼因為大家既期待又不懂"},{"start":11326.597,"end":11343.896,"text":"好不容易現在我們陸陸續續從新聞上看到我們114年也要開始收碳費為了這個上路也看到政府很有心來做一個所謂的自主減量業者的一個誘因"},{"start":11345.718,"end":11363.751,"text":"那我看到呢我們訂定的一個規定這個削減率從300元的有可以變50元然後也可以變到100元的我個人認為這個誘因是足夠的啦但是我很關心的就是說請教一下這個能夠超過2.5萬公噸的大概都是什麼樣的公司啊"},{"start":11368.652,"end":11376.878,"text":"因為我們收費對象是製造業、電業跟燃氣業所以還是以製造業為主就是現在的收費就是類似那些水泥、鋼鐵、石化類那為什麼我想關心這個問題因為我們也看到113年的10月碳權交易也上路了那麼我們看到這個所謂的減量的額度它有的可以去抵碳費嘛"},{"start":11396.252,"end":11401.277,"text":"那有的呢 多的可以拿去賣嘛那你們的今天夜報也寫了齁就是2023年以後想要參考國際碳價的水準訂定什麼樣呢每噸1200元至1800元"},{"start":11413.65,"end":11435.264,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我看到現在很多人都自己喊價嘛那個可以拿去賣的有的可以喊到4800喔那我這個也都沒有關係因為對我來講越高越好啊可是我現在想要看一下就是在我們的這個管理辦法當中的第7條它有提到一個第一項的第一款移除的類型"},{"start":11441.188,"end":11454.175,"text":"其實我們在辦的那個公益平台其實就是大概是屬於這一個類型那它也是含原住民族地區的自然碳會也就是一般會拿來去做企業的一個抵換移除那現在我想要問一下環境部部長"},{"start":11460.678,"end":11474.765,"text":"就是誘因也是足夠的那碳減量長期的趨勢呢又有剛性的需求那麼我評估啊請幫忙評估我就講五年後就好了會有多少企業加入這個自主減量專案"},{"start":11477,"end":11501.034,"text":"我先問好了,剛才的那個超過2.5萬公噸的齁,我有看到資料,大概是281加500場嘛。對。好,那請教一下5年後,有多少企業會加入這個自主減量?我跟委員報告,這一些企業其實明年就要提自主減量計畫了。是。因為如果他要適用優惠費率,他明年提自主減量計畫。你就告訴我,你預估大概多少家、多少場?"},{"start":11502.374,"end":11526.587,"text":"可能500場最少400場一定會提因為那個像委員剛剛的那個簡報有看我是講5年後5年後因為5年後我們的收費對象不曉得會不會調整或者是我們有沒有可能要進到那會變多還是變少應該會越來越多越來越多會大概成長5年後會成長到多少因為還要看我們那個往下調的那個時程"},{"start":11529.609,"end":11544.719,"text":"其實這一波不是我很關心的啦我關心的是山林的自然碳會啊所以我為什麼要問這個問題現在我為什麼一直問2.5萬公噸以上有多少家因為你的第三方驗證的機構現在不到15家嘛"},{"start":11548.041,"end":11553.542,"text":"而驗證費用將近一百萬那些超過2.5萬公噸的他也不擔心嘛是吧你要去做這個碳盤查又要去後來的幫他做減量規劃、碳移除的驗證費用我不擔心這些2.5萬公噸以上的我擔心的是未來的小型企業加入"},{"start":11570.487,"end":11598.49,"text":"那驗證費這麼貴 排隊的又那麼多所以我想請教環境部長那第三方驗證機構量能不足會不會影響減量的規模無法達標應該是不會啦因為我們目前的驗證機構其實量能夠多少家目前有15家15家夠有大概200是不是會後補充資料好 那沒有關係我現在就是要提醒"},{"start":11599.571,"end":11606.637,"text":"因為我關心的就是未來的自然碳會現在我是認為那麼會不會影響未來你講的220、320、碳加水準1200至1800的一個目標那如果說我們沒有辦法完成碳盤查、碳減量那市場要怎麼達標所以我希望經濟部我也想問你的業報說要協助產業人才那我們自己國內能做的"},{"start":11624.633,"end":11628.095,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估．及政府協助企業因應評估"},{"start":11654.793,"end":11668.581,"text":"下一位馬文君馬文君馬文君不在何新淳何新淳何新淳不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在賴世保賴世保賴世保不在廖偉祥下一位執行請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":11680.673,"end":11683.415,"text":"來,謝謝主席。有請兩位次長。請連市長跟市市長。"},{"start":11690.529,"end":11712.029,"text":"市長兩位我想要請問因為收取碳費是即將上路那依照這個碳收費辦法第五條、第六條被任務定為高洩漏的這個事業單位就可以在碳費的公司中享有碳排放係數的折扣所以0.2、0.4、0.6但是我想要請問一下何謂高洩漏這個事業單位"},{"start":11715.514,"end":11736.631,"text":"我們高碳洩漏的這個會從兩個指標來做認定一個就是它的排放密集度一個就是它的貿易密集度那用這兩個大指標來去算那現在有這個指標了現在有這個列表了嗎現在我們這個準則的列表出來現在狀況是怎麼樣我們現在在等這個主計總署把產業觀聯表所以還沒有對 我們會算那我想要問大概何時可以公佈認定高洩漏事業單位的準則因為你剛剛講的準則是兩個"},{"start":11744.437,"end":11759.414,"text":"好但是你的這個標準到底是什麼然後以及有多少這個有多少是符合的我們應該明年上半年希望能夠這個這個認定的準則還有一個作業的一個標準會公佈明年上半年會不會太晚了"},{"start":11760.419,"end":11778.457,"text":"因為其實依我們收費辦法他是後年要5月申報那後年的1月之前他去提高碳洩漏風險的這個身份的認定但前提他要先提自主檢查法你要想中間還有很多的流程然後審查行政然後企業也要去做這些相關的配套所以我認為你們應該要加速"},{"start":11783.061,"end":11796.875,"text":"好,我們盡可能會另外我想問那個碳費拍板定案每噸收300元那其實這個結果引發企業界跟環團都不滿意請問依照你們的立場依照經濟部的立場每噸300元是合理的嗎?"},{"start":11800.021,"end":11817.598,"text":"因為我們的看是看實質的角的費率啦那實質角的費率我們是本來是要對齊跟我們建政對手國日本跟韓國那我們本來是希望是說在10到60之間那後來因為這個碳我們提了好沒關係你認為合不合理"},{"start":11818.656,"end":11840.729,"text":"目前因為這個是共識局我們所以減碳其實是趨勢也是必走路但是大企業本身是比較有能力去做因為他們自己有獲利他有辦法去投資但是我國的中小企業就不見得有這個資金或是有能力可以去做所以我想要請問經濟部你對於中小企業減碳策略是什麼然後有哪些具體的協助方案可以讓中小企業邁向這個"},{"start":11842.295,"end":11850.14,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":11870.552,"end":11888.932,"text":"但是現在這個好像都不是很具體欸你這是方向大方陣沒有沒有這些已經都有愛心培練在做了很具體因為現在還是很多中小企業會不知道你到底要怎麼幫他們他們也很擔心那現在是2.5萬噸那什麼時候會變成是中小企業也要收那針對碳我們是希望他建立他碳能"},{"start":11890.383,"end":11904.364,"text":"我們有提供一天、兩天、三天的人才培訓,培訓完之後,他初步他針對他的碳管理就有一些能力。我想麻煩這個部長,麻煩次長,背後把全部資料送給委員。背後把全部資料送到本席辦公室喔。"},{"start":11904.804,"end":11931.625,"text":"那這個我也另外想要請問一下因為我們之前的部長有說過這個境外關內可以幫助國內的這個碳排高的產業往外移那包含著這個發電業、水泥、鋼鐵、石化甚至部分高科技產業都是高碳排我想要問大家要把它移到哪裡去然後我們把這個產業移出去的同時不是也是同時把資金和人才外流嗎?這個你們要怎麼因應?"},{"start":11932.365,"end":11945.922,"text":"這個我們部長有提過說這個要6個月內會提出一個嚴厲的計畫另外我要再講一下最後這個包含著經濟部長的前部長王美花曾經承諾我們台中爭一氣拆一美請問現在這個承諾還有效嗎?"},{"start":11948.81,"end":11963.438,"text":"這應該是按照承諾來做可是不對啊如果按照承諾來做的話現在看這上面啊這個是否2025增加臺中天然氣第一期的一號機組隔年2026年才拆有才要拆現有的兩部火力啊等等的"},{"start":11964.238,"end":11988.556,"text":"部長依照現在這個2024、2025你們拆除之後其實問題要到2031才能拆除34號機的燃煤機組可是你們現在看起來並沒有要並沒有說拆一氣就拆一煤現在台電有那個規劃我們把規劃的資料送給委員這邊好不好好請落實當初的承諾好謝謝廖偉祥委員來次長請回座"},{"start":11991.021,"end":11992.583,"text":"廖先祥不在。高金素美不在。許信不在。劉建國也不在。"},{"start":12002.452,"end":12021.163,"text":"登記發言委員處不在場之外,區域均勻發言完畢。我們詢答結束。由委員陳超明所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面諮詢及未及答案部分,請相關單位於一周內以書面答案並複製本位。本例議程處理完畢。現在,散會。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}