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些規範跟如何落實如果說各界有一些的意見當然我們司法院也願意願意參照大家的意見進行檢討至於說實務執行面如何落實這部分我們本院也尊重偵查機關跟偵查輔助機關他的實際上面的這個作為那司法院對於落實偵查不公開相關的這個制度的這個言議我們都尊重大院及各外界各界的意見我們會"},{"start":2122.233,"end":2147.606,"text":"做相關的這個檢討以上報告好謝謝那我們現在先確定那個議事錄上次的會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有那我們現在補充介紹我們的羅委員那議事錄確定好那接下來我們請法務部鄭明謙部長報告"},{"start":2153.158,"end":2165.688,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開以及兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障代表本部列席報告並備質詢"},{"start":2167.233,"end":2194.051,"text":"那為持續精進偵查不公開原則本部機期督導檢查機關落實相關作為那有法制面、行政面和業務面的一個具體說明如下在法制面我們會完備相關法律明確法律責任依照刑事訴訟245條授權規定訂立偵查不公開的一個作為的一個辦法另外我們也制定了法務部加強首屬檢查調查及聯合機關遵守偵查不公開的實施一個方案"},{"start":2194.972,"end":2203.171,"text":"另外我們也是乘計法來就違反偵查不公開作為辦法的法律效果我們做應付的懲戒及懲處的一個責任"},{"start":2205.097,"end":2233.462,"text":"以及追究這個刑事的一個責任另外我們也研修正能保護法將刑法一三二條泄密罪納入適用正能保護法的刑事事件的一個範圍在行政面這部分我們會落實督導持續交易訓練那我們會督導所屬來落實偵查不公開的一個原則另外呢我們也發函處請檢察機關就違反本辦法相關人員的依法的一個一個脫除那我們也喊請司法院協助"},{"start":2234.662,"end":2252.928,"text":"處請所屬注意相關裁定如涉及偵查程序內容所的新證使不予公開另外為了要增進發言人之智能本部定期辦理教育訓練因為深植偵查不公開原則之觀念本部會要求檢察機關應定期舉辦內部教育訓練"},{"start":2258.03,"end":2267.617,"text":"那在業務方面我們也建立了立稿指引精進檢討的作為我們會建立檢察官或司法警察機關提供偵查中影音之"},{"start":2269.918,"end":2295.344,"text":"資料的一個檢核表曾請核准前程立稿格式協助檢察機關妥適的應用那我們會隨時檢討現實關於偵查不公開及的一些的相關的一個措施偵查不公開那是維護司法正義及公信力的重要原則檢察機關一定是要必須要嚴守的本部將持續督導偵查不公開各項的檢討措施"},{"start":2296.404,"end":2314.12,"text":"若是檢討的督導機制符合法律規定堅固公共利益之維護並請其他偵查程序依法執行之務而接觸偵查內容者要共同落實遵守這個原則並讓我國的法制不斷向前進步以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2325.724,"end":2343.29,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生本會奉邀到貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開"},{"start":2344.468,"end":2358.643,"text":"以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障．進行專題報告如下．進行指教考量媒體具有接辟實證．所望社會第四權的功能．關於偵查不公開的言者之規定．"},{"start":2361.445,"end":2381.398,"text":"雖僅規範檢警人員．然為維護司法案件．當事人無罪推定言者及公平審判之權利．並兼顧新聞自由．滿足人民知的權利．橫著國外民主國家的做法．本會透過三立共管機制．對於廣電事業進行管理．由於電視業者所組成的"},{"start":2384.502,"end":2412.187,"text":"公學會已將偵查不公開及無罪推定原則納入其自立規範當中。建議特定司法案件發展備受關注本會議113年9月20日含請相關電視公學會以報導及評論司法案件應遵守事實查證及公平原則注意無罪推定及偵查不公開等自立規範"},{"start":2413.388,"end":2416.956,"text":"為督促業者落實自立衛星廣播電視法第22條"},{"start":2421.363,"end":2443.497,"text":"以明文規定媒體應該建立自立規範機制並受理民眾有關播送內容正確平衡品味之申訴且應定期提出具體的報告列為公開資訊同法第27條一定有新聞報導不得違反事實查證是損害公共利益之規定且有相關的罰則以落實新聞媒體"},{"start":2445.138,"end":2463.224,"text":"事實查證之法定義務令《廣播電視法》及《衛廣法》亦有利害關係人行使更正權之權益保附相關規定。針對民眾檢舉涉有違反前階規定之案件本會經逐一調閱測錄帶審視具體的個案內容並依作業標準流程處理本會將持續精進廣電媒體落實司法人權保障"},{"start":2473.768,"end":2497.204,"text":"謹慎處理司法案件之報導．並透過與媒體公協會及新聞頻道即時溝通．敦促其落實自立本會亦持續辦理媒體專業素養課程．強化新聞媒體從業人員以自播新聞時注意偵查不公開言則之自立規範．以提升媒體的處理司法品質以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2503.496,"end":2505.403,"text":"那下一位我們請蓮正署馮署長報告"},{"start":2514.983,"end":2540.949,"text":"主席、委員、與會的各部會先敬大家好今天奉邀列席貴委員會針對如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障的議題進行專案報告本署偵辦案件向來刻尊偵查不公開的相關規定並兼顧發現真實與當事人名譽隱私的權利保障以下請就本署辦理偵查不公開作業情形進行報告進行指教"},{"start":2541.969,"end":2568.967,"text":"第一遵循法務部偵查不公開的作業辦法規定積極的修訂本署的行政規則強化落實相關的作業流程本部在108年的3月15日修正了偵查不公開作業辦法那本署也在6月13日訂定法務部廉政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開作業要點也在同年的9月24日修正了法務部廉政署新聞處理及聯繫作業要點統一新聞處理作業"},{"start":2572.189,"end":2587.089,"text":"那在112年的11月28日也修正了法務部廉政署辦理速探案件落實人權保障注意事項然後落實案件偵辦過程中的人權維護近期本署為了提升辦案案件的品質"},{"start":2589.266,"end":2608.502,"text":"維護詢問室的安全跟秩序深化落實偵查不公開也在8月20號的時候訂定了法務部、廉政署、詢問室的管理要點那第二部分偵查不公開辦理的情形本署建置了檢討及督導小組檢討小組的會議原則每季召開一次必要時得及時召開"},{"start":2609.683,"end":2638.592,"text":"全面檢視偵查中的案件．所有的新聞報導．以及偵辦人員是否有違反偵查不公開的相關情勢．會後也即時的通知了案件偵辦同仁．務必嚴守偵查不公開的相關規定．並定期將檢討及查處的情形．公告在本署的網站上．此外在偵辦過程中．也明確劃定了採訪的禁制區．包含了設置新聞中心．"},{"start":2639.572,"end":2656.477,"text":"內部的公共區域都已經禁止媒體進入那也另外設有發言人的制度統一新聞發布的窗口並且本署為了全面深化落實偵查不公開也定期的對本署人員實施偵查不公開的教育訓練"},{"start":2657.898,"end":2682.89,"text":"本署偵辦速探案件．辦案的同仁均克徵職責．謹守偵查公開原則．偵查的事項若遭公開或揭露．首當其中的違案件偵辦．絕非本署樂見．所以本署亦期許各界一同落實偵查不公開．給予辦案人員純淨的辦案空間以上報告 敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2684.953,"end":2687.819,"text":"下一位我們請調查局吳副局長報告"},{"start":2703.607,"end":2727.888,"text":"主席．各位委員．各位女士．各位先生大家好．應邀律師貴人會．就如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障．來進行專題報告．進行質詢。暗藏案件調查的過程當中．各種偵查不公開的原則．是我們從事犯罪調查者．保障人權最低的一個限度的實踐．也是確保案件順利偵破的一個關鍵．"},{"start":2729.714,"end":2749.922,"text":"既然既可以保護偵查所獲得成果．而且避免後續偵查遭受猜測．又可落實無罪推定的原則．避免在案件起訴或判決前．被告及犯罪嫌疑人以外的人．知道對當事人的隱私名譽遭受侵害．所以本局嚴格來要求我們的．"},{"start":2752.943,"end":2781.812,"text":"發言人員在偵查過程當中一定要遵守我們偵查不公開的原則和善盡保密的義務那基於此點我們局裡面要求辦案同仁遵求遵守我們在我們辦案相關的規定在我們犯罪調查稅務手冊裡面有做了明確的一個規範另外在我們法務部調查局新聞處理跟聯繫執行要點裡面也有做明確的規範我們在犯罪調查稅務手冊的部分我們規範重點在偵破案件的時候我們要因"},{"start":2782.692,"end":2798.368,"text":"遵守偵查不公開原則．包含偵查程序．內容以及所得的新證．都不可以公開．要絕對保密在案件偵辦的時候．我們也不得帶同媒體．一同辦案．或者是不當使用．被告犯罪嫌疑人．受媒體拍攝．直接採訪．或是相關的畫面"},{"start":2800.71,"end":2815.301,"text":"有必要發布新聞處理的時候我們也必須要做好事前的審查事前審查的時候我們必須先徵求檢察官的意見核准的前線一律要到局長最高的成績來做一個核准"},{"start":2816.101,"end":2816.241,"text":"新聞處理跟聯繫要點"},{"start":2832.973,"end":2847.309,"text":"我們也規定我們新聞發布必須要指定新聞發言人那新聞稿事前也必須經過審核那接待採訪的媒體必須要確認他的身份、服務單位、出現採訪的地點、接待室都必須要在指定的住所"},{"start":2848.01,"end":2867.967,"text":"我們為了落實相關的規定我們除了就新進人員跟在職人員我們經常做一些教育宣導之外我們在偵查不公開我們檢討小組會議我們也定期的召開那如果同仁有違反的情形之下我們也一定的追究責任絕不姑息絕不看待以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2869.804,"end":2871.245,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":2899.042,"end":2919.091,"text":"大家好今天應邀列席貴委員會就如何破除偵查大公開．以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障做專題報告非常感謝委員長期對本署的支持跟重視那緊究相關工作這個檢要報告如下"},{"start":2921.51,"end":2943.814,"text":"本署除夕加強違修案件的查處由刑事警察局組成專案不公開組成偵查不公開督導小組常態性偵探各警察機關偵辦刑案新輪的處理情形如果發現有違反情形及法案交查近期我們針對歷年來從103年"},{"start":2948.45,"end":2948.85,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2966.826,"end":2980.251,"text":"新聞的防處機制以處分規定。第三本署將督促各警察機關落實警察機關遵辦刑案及處理新聞、偵查不公開。因此注意要點強化"},{"start":2983.393,"end":2986.216,"text":"遵守規範及執行偵查實務上起的平衡．一直是本署努力的目標．我們將持續透過委書的查處．"},{"start":3004.721,"end":3021.371,"text":"要求落實規範．督促警察人員落實執行．並實施定期教育訓練．強化警察人員偵查不公開的藝術．以兼顧公共利益及人權保障．以上檢要報告 敬請各位委員給予主教謝謝這邊徵求各位"},{"start":3031.994,"end":3056.462,"text":"委員的意見因為全聯會他們希望說能夠提出一個三分鐘的報告那不知道各位委員同不同意律師的全聯會同意好那我們麻煩李委員李琦提出報告你不是說他們不是嗎"},{"start":3060.971,"end":3067.207,"text":"他人又不知道去哪裡了好沒關係那我們就既然這樣的話那我們就直接開始"},{"start":3069.812,"end":3093.84,"text":"那我們這樣的話列席的機關都已經報告完畢那我們相關的書面內容列入公報記錄那現在開始我們進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記請說主席你再給我講一下你這個還沒有總長啊"},{"start":3097.435,"end":3116.495,"text":"不是 總長依照法院組織法只有在預算案或是法律的那個法律案時候才可以請他來啊你叫他不就要來但是我們禮拜四的法律案有請他過來 明天這個其實跟他也很重要關聯"},{"start":3118.123,"end":3120.143,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行詢問"},{"start":3160.524,"end":3170.895,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、警政署副署長"},{"start":3184.389,"end":3201.303,"text":"三位好,時間的關係不亦問候感謝在我今天針對偵查不公開這個重要的議題請各位提專案報告但我必須要老實講我拜讀完各個主管機關的專案報告以後我自己心裡的感覺"},{"start":3202.564,"end":3216.577,"text":"是你們所提出來的專案報告跟現實的世界是處於平行時空我再說一次你們所提的專案報告跟現實的世界是處於平行時空"},{"start":3217.478,"end":3243.473,"text":"任何在晚上有看台灣政論節目的觀眾我再說一次任何在台灣晚上有看政論節目的觀眾都會發現我們的官方報告大家都遵守偵查不公開全部的人都遵守偵查不公開所以那些政論節目從記者到名嘴大概每一個人都會通靈每一個人都會通靈"},{"start":3247.625,"end":3270.134,"text":"都不是減掉獎的都是這些媒體記者跟名嘴要不然就通靈要不然就胡說八道絕對沒有違反偵查不公開我上一次執行法務部部長的時候關鍵的問題我都問過了所以我今天想利用執行的時間"},{"start":3272.457,"end":3279.994,"text":"幫被害人說幾句話不是偵查不公開的被害人是我昨天去參加一場告別式"},{"start":3281.536,"end":3302.419,"text":"我從昨天參加完那兩告別式到現在我心裡非常非常的難過我一直在想我們的制度、我們的運作到底會出了什麼問題昨天我去土城分局清水派出所前所長、中興前所長的告別式"},{"start":3305.945,"end":3318.23,"text":"行李完了以後啊離開我跟中興的夫人我清新的拍拍他請他節哀請他保重他只跟我講幾個字啊拜託照顧好警察拜託照顧好警察"},{"start":3330.962,"end":3352.216,"text":"上一次去看他的時候他沒有提過一個跟他自己或跟中興的親屬個人利害關係有關的要求沒有他只講一件事拜託照顧好警察我看了他的夫人帶著一個4歲手上抱著一個還沒有滿1歲的小朋友"},{"start":3353.55,"end":3377.908,"text":"我老實講我心裡非常的難過我回去看啊到底發生了什麼樣子的事情我上次跟部長講過溯源追查好好查不是只有查到那個拖著開車啊有沒有食用毒品我不知道了交給檢察官去偵查車上有毒品開著車警察臨檢拒檢"},{"start":3380.475,"end":3405.434,"text":"一直撞、一直開搞到一條寶貴的人命整個家庭全部都破碎了溯源追查毒品這個是上次部長有承諾我我等著看結果但我要問的事情是什麼我要問的事情是這件事情從去年開始我們針對Atomic Death"},{"start":3406.98,"end":3419.185,"text":"上次煙彈也好啦依託彌子也好啦中文有各式各樣的翻譯搞了這麼久到了今年8月5號才正式列為三期圖評對於這樣子的效率部長你滿不滿意這樣的效率你滿不滿意"},{"start":3425.831,"end":3447.904,"text":"那這部分是跟委員報告伊多米斯是在今年6月13日才是獨省會是本部獨品省立委員會有決議所以我問你這樣的效率你滿不滿意我只問你這個問題這樣的效率你滿不滿意那這部分已經那跟委員報告那這部分已經公告為我知道啦這樣的效率你滿不滿意這部分已經大幅縮短了作業的時間了所以這樣的效率你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":3455.233,"end":3482.543,"text":"我老實跟部長講這個東西在台灣列為毒品管制的效率我一點都不滿意我很多被害人也不滿意部長你覺得滿意沒有關係這是你的意見表達我都尊重再往下私有二級毒品跟三級毒品處罰落差很大我相信部長幹過檢察官非常的清楚下一個問題現在列為三級毒品"},{"start":3484.349,"end":3488.423,"text":"警界有很大的呼聲說希望列為二級圖品．法務部戰無戰成"},{"start":3489.475,"end":3489.635,"text":"這個獨家犯"},{"start":3518.598,"end":3546.668,"text":"我大概把他犯罪的歷程因為我一直在思考這件事情到底是怎麼發生我必須要負責任的把他全部的犯罪歷程調出來第一次施用毒品藉隱治療結果施用二級毒品判刑三個月一顆罰金施用第二級毒品判刑三月一顆罰金施用第二級毒品一顆罰金"},{"start":3548.28,"end":3577.503,"text":"使用第二級毒品判刑4月一顆罰金一連串下來全部都是一顆罰金來我請教一下我們司法院刑事廳從刑事法規範的目的不管你要採取硬報還是一般預防特別預防不管你採取什麼理論你會不會跟台灣社會大眾說明一下一犯再犯一再侵犯"},{"start":3580.613,"end":3592.917,"text":"這個處罰可能連腳字都沒有到底有什麼效果可以跟社會大眾說明一下嗎用一般人聽得懂的語言用被害人聽得懂的語言告訴我們的社會大眾我們的刑事司法體系到底是出了什麼問題請說明"},{"start":3600.951,"end":3607.255,"text":"對誰教育宣導這是今天才發生的嗎這是今天才發生的事情嗎抓到一次罰三萬塊抓到一次罰三萬塊有什麼處罰的效果"},{"start":3629.983,"end":3633.405,"text":"有什麼預防的效果?會怕嗎?有什麼預防的效果?有什麼治療的效果?搞到現在社會大眾看到的是什麼?一個媽媽牽著一個四歲的小孩手上抱著一個未滿一歲的嬰兒"},{"start":3662.233,"end":3666.214,"text":"這不僅是這個獨家犯的問題這個是這個國家制度的問題這樣的制度到底在保護誰我們念法律念了那麼久我們念法律念了那麼久"},{"start":3687.803,"end":3696.867,"text":"從刑法各式各樣的理論全部都念過了我看到這樣的結果我只想問一件事啦這樣的刑事司法制度到底保護了誰這個獨家犯脫刑死亡警察臨檢拒絕脫刑死亡目前的法定刑事多少"},{"start":3719.861,"end":3733.245,"text":"目前的法定刑事多少拜託你是刑事定聽長你還要翻法條喔我為什麼不叫副秘書長上來三年以上十年以下你覺得OK嗎就法定刑來講這算一般來講我們認為這是一個重刑相當的重刑的這樣是重刑是 只是在法官量刑的部分要怎樣讓他正適當的量刑"},{"start":3750.566,"end":3767.595,"text":"再往下第二個被害人這個被害人是我離開立法院以後我那時候成立了一個吹噪者保護協會他哭著跑來找我張淑娟來請NCC主任秘書"},{"start":3776.803,"end":3802.026,"text":"他2022年喔怎麼在政論節目上面被霸凌的我相信NCC非常的清楚啦怎麼在政論節目上被霸凌的我相信NCC很清楚啦昨天超過兩年喔超過兩年喔昨天刑事第一審開庭做最後的延遲辯論做最後的延遲辯論"},{"start":3805.12,"end":3831.517,"text":"形式上他有他的權利啦我看了相關他的辯詞我看了我沒有辦法相信來我先請教個common sense指控一個未婚的女性跟已婚的男性滾床單是不是負面名詞是不是負面名詞好你們NCC啊今天說什麼新聞自律啊"},{"start":3833.017,"end":3852.849,"text":"還要求說什麼相關的紀錄要上網來看一下當初參與霸凌的這個廣電媒體民視公司2022年第11次新聞自律諮詢倫理委員會這個就是你們所講的新聞自律的機制嘛結果這些新聞倫理自律的委員講什麼說我們節目的內容哪裡妨礙工序良俗有委員說滾床單咧"},{"start":3862.884,"end":3865.925,"text":"結果裡面竟然有人講說滾床單是負面名詞嗎我們現在的新聞自律倫理機制有沒有發揮功能啊我看了這個新聞自律倫理委員會的討論啊我只能夠說啊大開眼界啊一個無辜的女性被傷害成這個樣子進入你們所講的新聞自律倫理機制結果是怎樣"},{"start":3892.293,"end":3912.047,"text":"滾床單是負面名詞嗎?難怪大家都覺得這個新聞倫理自律機制是形同虛設更離譜的事情是什麼?然後我們繼續往下看結果那一次新聞倫理相關的記錄我從開始追這個案子的時候在網站上消失"},{"start":3919.488,"end":3925.529,"text":"開完會不敢潑上去開完會不敢潑上去為什麼不敢潑上去我的判斷絕對不是失誤不敢潑上去是因為丟人現眼丟人現眼自己都知道自己討論的內容社會大眾看了心裡感覺為什麼不敢潑上去"},{"start":3945.441,"end":3972.527,"text":"你們現在有沒有要求新聞之旅倫理委員會的會議記錄要上網?有如果沒有上網罰則是什麼?我們在...我們在二十...違反二十二條我們是...二十萬嗎?我們是違反二...違反沒有...沒有依照程序來公告的話會有二十萬的罰款有罰嗎?呃...這一件...這一件它有...它有公告啊拜託 你回去看一下啦什麼時候公告的什麼時候公告的"},{"start":3974.454,"end":3999.895,"text":"拖到今年3月才補上網我有沒有講錯這是我回去再查一下如果假設他沒有依照程序來公告他我們會處罰該處罰要處罰喔是這什麼新聞倫理自律機制啊是是是那個最主要是因為那三位也都是他們外部所寫的外部專家學者啦那學者的話如果說你對你自己的言論那你自己要負責"},{"start":4001.894,"end":4022.743,"text":"沒有啦 他們要言論他們自己負責 他們自己負責嘛當然是他們自己負責嘛但這種丟人現眼的東西依法要公告在裡面講的丟人現眼的話依法要公告沒有公告這就是NCC的責任了不是嗎我一再查一下你們當初在給他換照通過的時候有審酌這件事嗎我們都會審酌都會審酌代表有審酌但是沒有罰是嗎"},{"start":4029.929,"end":4051.45,"text":"因為換照的時候他是換不換照的問題不是處罰的問題拜託換不換照的時候有沒有依照建立健全的新聞倫理紀律機制他不是審酌的要點之一嗎?是依法該公告沒有公告不是審酌的要點之一嗎?是那你不是說要審酌所以你們審酌了以後決定給他換照沒關係但是也不用罰是這樣嗎?"},{"start":4053.82,"end":4079.877,"text":"如果假設有違反程序的話當然是違法但是換作是另外一個對啦我知道嘛我要講的事情是什麼這件事情你們早就應該知道了啦我現在在質疑的是你們早就知道了為什麼沒有任何處罰我一再查一下好了OK主席站起來了好謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員進行尋討"},{"start":4082.058,"end":4110.268,"text":"另外我先做宣告今天委員提出臨時提案那依據本會往例依據上午11點處理那如果到時候正好有委員在詢答就等該委員詢答完畢之後立刻進行處理臨時提案那請莊瑞雄委員進行詢答謝謝莊委有請我們法務部麻煩部長政部長"},{"start":4112.387,"end":4130.435,"text":"我們廉政署馮誠署長、法務部調查局副局長、內政部警政署陳永利副署長是不是也請我們司法院司法廳廳長我就不問候了部長"},{"start":4137.162,"end":4152.418,"text":"我想今天召委排這樣的一個議程有它的一個意義但是整個標題是在講說我們這整個偵查大公開這個是各位"},{"start":4153.878,"end":4180.021,"text":"應該是很有感觸我也有非常大的一個感觸那確實是最近我們整個社會上發生的一些案件民眾我相信也感受在心裡那剛剛我聽了黃國昌委員的一個質詢以後其實我又剛好有不同的想法像比如說剛他在質詢的時候這整個毒品防治犯罪的部分"},{"start":4180.933,"end":4198.99,"text":"他痛心疾首他的感受我相信一般社會大眾也會有感可是我倒是反向思考我覺得各位剛剛的答詢都不太好為什麼說不太好我記得我記得封城我們都差不多吧我們都幾乎說同一輩二十幾年前還不到三十年"},{"start":4204.335,"end":4233.18,"text":"我去看守所在濾箭或在監獄裡面濾箭的時候啊那個時候監獄裡面關的以前叫煙毒犯嘛毒品犯罪的人沒到20%沒到20%就當初吸食毒品啊從樂戒到戒治後來法律我們一直修一直改我要請教我們法務部長就是說我們現在在監獄裡面我們的毒品犯罪的人"},{"start":4236.203,"end":4258.861,"text":"現在是4成多以前是超過5成現在已經降到5成以下了我每一次到監所裡面去我第一件事情問典獄長的就是說你這關於毒品的才要幾成有超過5成了對不對那我要問的就是說我們這個法律一直修訂我們這個社會對整個毒品犯罪啊"},{"start":4260.086,"end":4280.734,"text":"深惡痛絕可是呢越關越多就不管是採取硬報或者採取剿制全部都失敗全部都失敗這廳長你也很清楚嘛這個都是失敗我要提出來的一個警告就是說會不會我們的方法錯了會不會我們跟國外剛好相反喔"},{"start":4287.469,"end":4311.105,"text":"但是國外有成功的我們不敢用我們因為政治上的攻防也沒有任何一個執政者會去採取像荷蘭採取像歐洲甚至於像美國好多現在連毒品犯罪大麻都沒有犯罪你們又不敢所以我們對毒品犯罪叫做束手無策"},{"start":4312.011,"end":4340.208,"text":"那立法院裡面要的是說老百姓很討厭就把他刑度提高提高提高提高這個結果變成什麼有沒有去做一個省思簡單回答一下部長我們現在毒品是現在已經明年要進入反毒策略行動幹委第三期了那現在我們是導進就是說在整個一個供應跟那個需求我們是那個要把它阻斷阻斷掉那降低那個需求"},{"start":4340.928,"end":4341.048,"text":"有好嗎?"},{"start":4369.459,"end":4389.177,"text":"我認為是有效果,如果沒有效果的話,不會新生人口不會降低那監獄裡面這些人數會降低嗎?有降低啦,現在已經降到4成,應該是4成2吧,4成2那這邊我們用多元處理方案,因為其實把它關到牢裡去其實會衍生很多做學就業的很多的一個問題"},{"start":4389.838,"end":4418.397,"text":"那事實上這是他有病人跟病人的一個特質因為他吸毒他那個整個腦部的基因會有減損所以時間沒有很多啦我要提出來就是說我跟黃國昌委員的看法不一樣啦不一樣啦但不一樣的東西是我們共同厭惡的一樣但是呢我認為我們的方式啊未必是對啦這個真的值得法務部好好去思考啦不然不會刑度一直增加然後毒品犯罪的"},{"start":4419.519,"end":4430.155,"text":"聲告有的監獄裡面關了快50%國外的方法有效的我們又不能用也不敢用這個值得去省思另外我要講的就是說"},{"start":4431.755,"end":4457.985,"text":"今天我們這個所謂的偵查大公開我是很大的一個感觸偵查我相信不公開各位全部都是法律人大家很清楚最主要是保障犯罪嫌疑人跟被告合法的一個權利就是說在整個未經審判程序的一個這個過程裡面防止未經審判程序的一個輿論審判同時去維護整個社會的一個公平性我要請教調查局好了先調查局好不好"},{"start":4461.485,"end":4469.472,"text":"你們這五年內這五年內因為違反偵查不公開的部分你們有沒有處罰過的人案例 幾件"},{"start":4474.276,"end":4499.155,"text":"幾件就好我們總共我們從105年到目前為止我們總共有我們主動提報地檢署偵辦我們同仁涉嫌洩密的案件我們總共有七件處罰了幾件七件我們七件大概大部分都起訴那另外在行政調查部分我們也都去做行政上面的追究那幹部如果說有疏失的話我們也做行政上面的追究"},{"start":4501.072,"end":4508.44,"text":"我看我們本院一些委員一直在講說這個整個偵查不公開裡面"},{"start":4510.091,"end":4526.647,"text":"涉及到的一個件數啊甚至於講到說有七千多件違反偵查不公開那只有十幾位被處分這個新聞我們也都看到了啊阿博長你認為啊我們法務部裡面啊你來這樣你這樣了解起來這五天就要不要做了你如果出發過萬偵查不公開你覺得"},{"start":4534.881,"end":4558.593,"text":"那個我們是整個一個案記加總是處分是這幾年統計是15件齁那跟委員報告那個7000多件那個是有件報的我們一定會把它對啦有件報沒有錯那再來做一個那個過濾審查阿你出阿有的你覺得有幾件阿這幾年是15我統計資料是15件15件阿有處罰了嗎就處罰15件處罰15件對阿那個那個那個級別都到哪裡"},{"start":4565.578,"end":4566.119,"text":"以法務部來看的話"},{"start":4582.563,"end":4596.402,"text":"剛調查局那邊還有幾件調查人員那以法務部來看的話就似乎檢察官就都沒有那沒有是好事啊可是這個社會到底會不會相信就很怪你們也必須要有這樣的一個疑問"},{"start":4597.903,"end":4603.267,"text":"我們整個刑事訴訟法第245條我請教司法院行政廳廳長廳長我們245條的第5項裡面去講到說檢察官檢察事務官或者司法警察司法警察官辯護人告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務的人員除了為了維護整個公共利益或保護合法的一個權益者以外"},{"start":4623.879,"end":4637.009,"text":"偵查中執行職務之息的事項．不得去公開或者揭露．給這些執行法定職務範圍以外之人．所謂的以外之人．包括你的內心的想法．包括哪些人"},{"start":4639.465,"end":4656.61,"text":"包括你的見解就我們認為接觸到的可能接觸到的相關的人員他所窒息到有沒有包括記者這個部分我們不是很確定但是基本上我們那個是在規範公務員的我是說不得揭露給哪些人我告訴你喔"},{"start":4657.33,"end":4671.875,"text":"按照你們高院的見解陳辦中的檢察官偵查中的一個案件連總統行政院長連法務部長都不能讓他知道這個在之前的案例有出現是高院也講了一個見解"},{"start":4672.995,"end":4690.254,"text":"那個部長 部長 部長 你那檢察官偵查案件 你會偷偷的去問嗎這個我不會去干涉郭文貴 是啊 他如果說給你聽 你眼睛 你的眼睛會怎樣 這樣會怎樣這個他不會來找我報告這些事情也不會啦 不會也不要像以前那個黃世民一樣 傻傻的跑去跟馬英就講"},{"start":4693.475,"end":4715.593,"text":"這個不可能的事情 不應該發生 我的意思就是說我們這整個法制啊 其實它不是沒有規定 它規定得很清楚啊你像譬如說 你一個偵查程序當中只是一個偵查階段的一個開始而已啊 被告到底有沒有犯罪都還不知道"},{"start":4716.656,"end":4724.929,"text":"你說很多被告啊你把他列為被告像譬如說假設各位被列為被告的話你們第一個怎麼想你們第一個想說我絕對相信司法司法是給我清白的對不對"},{"start":4727.785,"end":4751.076,"text":"可是如果是被告的時候檢察官一直給你放一直給你放或者其他人一直給你放這對當事人的隱私名譽甚至於整個身家的一個安全啊這對這個都違反到法律對他們的一個保護啊所以任何在偵查當中任何一個訊息的一個洩漏啊對當事人或者他的家屬啊都會造成嚴重的一個損害啊這部長你敢認同這個嗎"},{"start":4753.177,"end":4767.007,"text":"這個是謝謝委員的指導麥公指導這個我們都很心知肚明你要保障整個偵查的一個工作你國家機關尤其是偵查機關你本來就想有比較優越的一個資訊的一個關鍵"},{"start":4769.989,"end":4780.774,"text":"那可是呢你任何一個不當的一個洩漏以後啊這對於你保全犯人也好或者說對於收集跟保全證據這會產生很大的一個阻礙法我們也修了我記得你看喔我們在偵查中執行職務的事項不能任意去洩漏這個在2012年的時候你去徵訂刑事訴訟法245條第5項還會同司法院還有行政院去訂定偵查不公開的一個辦法"},{"start":4799.542,"end":4816.214,"text":"到了2017年施改國事會議當中也去討論偵查不公開．跟媒體不當或違法報導影響的議題做成決議才有2019年去修正偵查不公開的一個辦法我要問問題出在哪裡 部長現在都走不上了都走不上了問題出在哪裡在問部長這個問題 廉政署裡面那邊也是一樣啊"},{"start":4829.025,"end":4843.046,"text":"全部都是一樣的啦!你們警政署也是一樣啦!都一樣的啦!你們也不知道怎麼說?兩手一攤!無解!部長回應一下!這個要讓社會至少知道你們的態度嘛!"},{"start":4844.107,"end":4862.762,"text":"我想我們會在嚴格的一個落實事實上我們會已經目前我們都已經最近我們有多次的發行要求還有利用各種的包括檢察長會任何的教育訓練研討會我們都在申訴這一個態度這部分如果說差的話我們就是絕對嚴辦絕路寬待部長我跟你說無效為什麼無效"},{"start":4871.172,"end":4888.56,"text":"涉及到這一些偵查不應該揭露的資訊的人都是專業人士啊不可以叫人來偵查檢察官一定是嘛調查局一定是嘛司法警察官一定是嘛司法警察一定是嘛你廉政署的人一定都是專業人他們怎麼會不懂這些法律為什麼會這樣就是沒辦兩件齁台階很高啦我舉跟我們召委吳宗憲稍微過去有點關係的啦你看那個媽媽嘴暗嘛"},{"start":4900.731,"end":4929.542,"text":"最有名的吧你看當年那個呂政鴻殺人犯香港殺人犯你們的傳播都這樣去大動作2013年大動作養僑人的咖啡廳到現在來看無罪了還他清白了可是他被標籤化他對當事人是多大的一個傷害啊甚至於你看他走在路上搞不好人家還指指點點他看到這個對當事人那種精神上的折磨"},{"start":4930.957,"end":4955.604,"text":"這個不是喔所握公權力尤其是偵查發動權的司法人員有辦法去忍受啦所以保證我們不能說只有說有啦我都有在宣達有在教育啦有在做什麼問題外界看到的就是不是如此啊所以我們重喜我每一次我從在野黨國民黨執政我對這個偵查不公開我就很有意見我說我們偵查機關我們法務部這個地方"},{"start":4960.933,"end":4965.796,"text":"我就非常有意見。到了民進黨執政,其實我也非常有意見。你不改選,有補嗎?還有補嗎?"},{"start":4972.153,"end":4998.625,"text":"就像委員 我們有抓到證據我們就嚴辦當然啦 當然 抓到當然是一定要重罰問題你就抓不到 你就抓不到抓不到 你就不知道 你就每天你都每天你都覺得 這個對我們整個司法喔對尤其是啊 我們檢查體系啊受到那個不信任齁我告訴你喔 以最近發現發生的這些事情我問博定德 你的感觸是什麼 你的感觸是什麼欸"},{"start":5001.772,"end":5022.586,"text":"因為這個是最近辦了檢方辦了很多的社會矚目的一個案件那我想這個社會都非常的關注那媒體的話都大伍的報台灣新聞非常多那我是認為說很多的報道有些是以訛傳訛那這部分我們也要求檢察官對這部分我們有多分案來做一個了解"},{"start":5023.306,"end":5023.626,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員錯了兩個地方"},{"start":5049.602,"end":5059.871,"text":"他說昭偉今天這個偵查不公開的一個整個報告其實他講錯了今天叫做偵查大公開 對不對昭偉第二個他講說政論節目從晚上開始他也講錯了政論節目從中午就在開始講得太精彩了而且每一次講完以後我看你們的動作實在是"},{"start":5074.879,"end":5087.848,"text":"這個問題不是黨派的問題這個問題司法的話你本來就不應該有黨派你們真的要去想辦法不能任由偵查當中的這些資訊任意的去做一個揭露"},{"start":5088.926,"end":5114.553,"text":"為什麼要這樣講?你司法對人民來講的話你對於一個他認為是無罪的人司法應該是他的避風港難怪以現在我們的司法實務的操作變成是新聞頭條裡面的風暴中心你沒有特別會有感觸嗎?我相信我相信我的我們檢察官還有我們那個偵查團隊對最近報的我們認為"},{"start":5116.118,"end":5117.78,"text":"不是不是部長你這個我不同意喔你說最近這幾天的案件裡面這樣新聞的揭露你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開"},{"start":5135.844,"end":5158.896,"text":"這個違反偵查這個是還是要按照要講好喔要證據來認定的事實如果事後這一些萬一起訴書裡面揭露出來全部都在偵查階段裡面所公開任意揭露這些都是真的你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開我沒有說違反偵查不公開我認為這個就是說我相信我相信整個偵查團隊不會去違反偵查不公開"},{"start":5160.316,"end":5161.016,"text":"這個檢察官還在查齁 這個檢察官還在查"},{"start":5191.254,"end":5206.909,"text":"還是要對社會有一個正面的一個回應啦這個真的我們要非常謹慎啦好不好謝謝謝謝謝謝莊委員部長但莊委員的意思是說沒有違反你說沒有違反偵查不公開但是我們有違反偵查不公開的結果"},{"start":5208.334,"end":5222.029,"text":"事實上有這個結果但是你說沒有這個行為那就是很好很奇怪就是沒有這個行為但是卻在現實上有了這個結果剛剛莊委員是這個意思現在我們請沈委員進行詢問"},{"start":5239.593,"end":5246.016,"text":"主席我先請我們司法院的副秘書長副秘委員好黃副秘書長好這個我想今天的主題有關偵查大公開這個主題"},{"start":5260.76,"end":5281.841,"text":"我想大家大概等一下法務部長也是得上台了不過我為什麼會先找你上台我想你心裡大概也有數因為我們這個議題好像今年3月有類似的議題我那時候第一個也是找你上來我們目前為什麼因為我們目前我國這個法制有關於偵查不公開它的法源是哪裡"},{"start":5283.166,"end":5311.282,"text":"刑事訴訟法他授權訂定的這個偵查不公開作業辦法245條刑事訴訟法245條嘛齁這個偵查不公開之那刑事訴訟法的主管機關是是本院是司法院嘛齁那這個按照這個第245條他所授權他的第5項他授權說這個有關第一項偵查不公開的作業辦法由司法院會統行政院定之嘛齁對不對所以"},{"start":5312.202,"end":5318.326,"text":"所以我們就司法院就跟會前行政院就訂定了一個偵查不公開作業辦法對不對"},{"start":5320.443,"end":5345.074,"text":"所以偵查不公開作業辦法這個的主管機關也是司法院嗎對不對跟委員報告是那是在訂定當然我們實際上執行事件是法務部所以我們大致上都尊重法務部而且執行上面也大部分是法務部但是主管機關是你們所以你們有沒有瞭解在按照這個偵查不公開作業辦法之下各個其他的各個這些偵查單位跟偵查輔助單位"},{"start":5349.716,"end":5373.632,"text":"自己訂定的作業要點,你這邊知道嗎?委員報告齁,那這部分他們不會報給我們因為這部分,我們大概就是到了偵查不公開作業辦法至於輔助機關更下位階的你們訂好這個,訂好這個辦法之後就法務部列台級了是是是,他們都報給法務部,是執行便是法務部其實應該要掌握啦齁,因為畢竟你們是偵查不公開作業辦法的主管機關齁我認為說,你們不能說我跟"},{"start":5376.494,"end":5403.146,"text":"我跟法務部訂了這個辦法之後這些說偵查不公開的事情除非你告來法院否則都沒有我的事我想因為你們是主管機關你們是這個作業辦法的主管機關齁所以你們對這個作業辦法它的執行以及它的下位的這些作業要點你們也應該要有所掌握啦好不好要跟法務部要談因為向來多年來都是由法務部去掌握這部分我知道這個我知道好副院長請回啦齁所以還是得請本來想讓鄭部長休息一下啦齁不過"},{"start":5404.653,"end":5430.291,"text":"不過這個我們還是還是回歸到最後偵查不公開齁還是實際的執行單位還是我們法務部啦齁剛才我跟這個黃副秘書長我們所討論齁其實偵查不公開法律訂定這個偵查不公開他在當初在這個偵查不公開作業要點訂定的時候他的立法目的他的這個條文說明他就講"},{"start":5431.67,"end":5447.797,"text":"偵查不公開他的目的為什麼要做偵查不公開有三大目的第一個就是要確保公平的審判確保公平審判這是一個很重要的價值跟他的立法目的第二個是要維護偵查程序順利遂行"},{"start":5449.068,"end":5474.659,"text":"這整個偵查程序我們要讓它順利可以順利進行第一個是審判公平第二個是偵查程序順利第三要保障訴訟關係人之名譽隱私及安全這個是三個目的也就是審判以及偵查順利審判公平偵查順利然後保障訴訟相關當事人他們的權益他們的安全他們的隱私、名譽所以偵查不公開事實上"},{"start":5475.765,"end":5501.878,"text":"落實偵查不公開確實是一件非常重要的事情我們剛剛有討論偵查不公開他的作業辦法我們法務部在就偵查不公開的作業辦法下面下屬所屬單位有哪一些作業要點?部長能不能說明一下?廉政署有沒有?調查局有沒有?這個一個實施方案"},{"start":5507.284,"end":5534.88,"text":"委員報告就是我們有制定一個法務部加強所屬檢查調查及廉政機關偵搜偵查不公開原則的一個實施方案這是我們訂這一種那我們這個108年6月26號訂的啦我知道對這個名字也很長那另外那個廉政署調查局他們本身也有訂他們自己的一個行動也有訂啦齁因為這個偵查不公開這個除了偵查機關還有偵查輔助機關大概就是法務部跟警政署啦"},{"start":5535.854,"end":5563.325,"text":"警政署有警政署自己的這個警政署這個連政署調查局就算你們警政署有警政署自己的偵查不公開的辦法這跟你們沒有關係但是但是我現在要講你們這個剛剛你所念的這個名字很長叫做法務部加強所屬檢查調查及連政機關遵守偵查不公開原則實施方案"},{"start":5564.245,"end":5575.056,"text":"這個是108年6月26號訂定的啦齁那這個這個我們來看看現在目前齁有其實有關這個偵查不公開的這個作業要點齁這個裡面的這個這個其實他的規定結構還蠻複雜的這個偵查不公開作業要點齁的第8條他有規定一些"},{"start":5588.956,"end":5601.003,"text":"例外就是說偵查不公開是原則所有都在規定偵查不公開但是第8條是偵查不公開的例外他有一些他有這個7項規定7項有7項7種狀況在7種條件之下是偵查是可以公開的"},{"start":5608.633,"end":5631.285,"text":"這個部長你清楚嗎?這個清楚,這個我有做的辦法,這個第1到7項嘛。對對對,第8條1到7項,他說在其實就是說有重大犯罪啦,或者是有逃犯或者是通緝犯,要告知民眾防範,欲請民眾協助指認,或者是這個為了被告防禦權的行使的必要,或者是"},{"start":5632.125,"end":5642.635,"text":"目前已經有的報導與事實不符對這個訴訟當事人有重大名譽損害這部這時候我們可以公開所以他是偵查不公開的例外規定是但這些例外規定又有例外規定"},{"start":5644.09,"end":5667.789,"text":"第8條他所講的這7項他又排除說在這些你公開的時候你有一些例外規定這是規定在第9條第9條他就是第8條的例外規定他說你雖然可以公開但是這種情況又不能公開這個是第9條有關如果說被告是少年或犯罪嫌疑人具體這是否自首自白等等這些又有這個7個8個要件"},{"start":5672.99,"end":5688.73,"text":"是例外但這個例外之後又有例外排除他在後段從這個這個這個第二項開始這前項第六款的影音什麼資料如果有特別澄清的必要還是可以公開所以規定其實很複雜啦規定其實很複雜"},{"start":5690.851,"end":5705.266,"text":"所以相關的這些法律規定我覺得要讓我們現在所有的這些偵查機關真的要清楚在什麼樣的情況之下它是可以公開什麼樣的情況是不可以公開因為它的法律結構非常複雜規定例外例外又排除排除之後又但書"},{"start":5706.913,"end":5719.96,"text":"這個部分希望說我們法務部能夠讓我們的相關的這個單位能夠清除了其實因為我剛才我跟這個司法院副秘書長我們在3月的時候我們就討論過這個相關偵查不公開的案子但那時候政府長還沒上任"},{"start":5721.212,"end":5742.576,"text":"那時候我也針對法務部我有針對這個我們全有檢視我們全台灣地檢署有關偵查不公開的檢討跟查辦處分情形我從各個網站去抓你們每一個網站有公開有公開這個揭露你們有關這個偵查不公開的相關的這些數據來檢討那時候我有提出質詢那時候我是在這時候3月18號我提出質詢我認為這個統計數據跟辦法是有問題的"},{"start":5751.292,"end":5757.928,"text":"結果我3月18提出質詢之後好像你們5月是不是有針對我所提的質詢開了一個檢討會有一個延伤的一個"},{"start":5761.636,"end":5787.19,"text":"一個5月30有一個原商的一個會議這個是由抬高前來督導那個就是5月30裡面有辦一個偵查不公開作業辦法的相關精進作為一個原商會議對一個原商會議原商會議那之後齁我也就又在那時候3月的時候我做了一個統計那今天就用這個主題我昨天又做了一個統計所以我從看從這個從3月18"},{"start":5789.81,"end":5807.433,"text":"到這個之後數字有所變化也就是說3月你們所公告的到去年年底為止的到現在你們公告的是到今年第二季第三季有的到第二季有的公佈到第三季都有但是我把它就做了一個整理跟比較"},{"start":5808.669,"end":5811.573,"text":"就從我上次質詢3月18到現在公布的數字你們所檢討的件數光這幾個月你們檢討的件數就增加了2172件就是那時候本來"},{"start":5825.461,"end":5852.656,"text":"原本是檢討7300多件現在統計檢討了9400多件增加了2170這很好表示你們認真在這幾個月裡面你們多檢討了2700多件的案例但是你們檢討這麼多件數呢最後你們查辦了多少件2000多件你們查辦了多少件增加了77件就這幾個月增加查辦增加77件那增加這77件以後"},{"start":5854.653,"end":5879.271,"text":"你們最後處分增加了多少人部長你知道目前那個處分的話我們現在還是在15件還是在15件你們這些查辦我看你們我完全依照你們各網站的統計數字這幾個月從3月到10月你們檢討了2000多件那這個查辦了77件最後處分增加處分幾個人一個人"},{"start":5880.731,"end":5899.018,"text":"只處分一個人花了這麼多時間我們檢討了兩千多件最後處分了一個人這個破案率實在太低啦是因為我們都嚴守是因為我們所有的都嚴守這個偵查不公開嗎看起來也不是啊今天為什麼主席會排這樣子的"},{"start":5900.049,"end":5924.358,"text":"為什麼主席會排著這樣子的主題這樣的專案報告事實上就是對於現在顯然是對認為都是對於現在的這個某一些特定案件他的這個現在的這個偵查不公開的狀況有很大的問題跟漏洞啊跟委員報告事實上齁因為有接觸到案件人當然是偵查不公開是規範有接觸到有我知道了法定是但是能接觸到還有其他人還有包括這個部分齁"},{"start":5924.898,"end":5944.469,"text":"還有被害人、還有證人、甚至那些不可以有可能講出去阿這個部分我知道,這個部分我要請部長之順,你要對社會說明說明說為什麼你們檢討了兩千多件,這就只有處分一個人這個要說明,而不是只有數字,我看到在網站上就是數字這部分法務部應該說明啦但今天排這個案子,因為我時間快要到,最後我就談這個問題今天為什麼排這個案子"},{"start":5948.629,"end":5965.186,"text":"不然你知道我做了一個簡單的統計啦從我們我知道說今天為什麼排這個案子他關心的是哪一個案子從這個案子從搜索住宅開始從這個這個8月30搜索住宅開始9月5這個9月5號申請羈押到今天"},{"start":5967.767,"end":5982.155,"text":"這樣從8月30到今天喔就一家特定媒體就一家特定媒體他報導了多少次報導了這個有關於我們這個偵查的內容報導了多少次多少則新聞你知道嗎按照我的統計總共報導了八十則八十則跟他扣這個案子簽就可以了報導八十則一間特定媒體"},{"start":5991.458,"end":6014.977,"text":"有時候一天一天的報導最高一天到報導到八次就一天他就有八則新聞在在報這個案子這個吼是真的其實這個案子這樣子是很嚴重我知道你們過程中你們也有傳喚記者啦你們有傳喚記者來瞭解瞭解但記者就說啊這個沒有我們這所有的報導內容都是按照我個人的的長期跑新聞的經驗來得知的判斷臆測"},{"start":6017.981,"end":6021.57,"text":"然後你們就用這個東西做結論、結案case closed"},{"start":6023.534,"end":6049.07,"text":"這個公委報告這個案件我們那個這個案件還沒有解還在偵查中這個是一個初步的一個人一個適度的一個場景我要講了齁這個這種偵查不公開我剛講過他三大目的不分黨派我們不會因為說這個案子是什麼黨派的案子我們就說啊這個案子公開很好啊這個案子不公開比較好不會所有的案子我們都有一次我們認為說其實不只這個案子"},{"start":6050.106,"end":6076.574,"text":"過去不分藍、綠、白所有的司法案件只要社會矚目他就是這樣子新聞報導就是這樣就是大量的我們肉眼可見顯然就是來自內部的訊息這個我覺得我們不能再一而再再而三的說兩手一攤說這個沒有我們查了甚至傳喚記者了但記者這樣講所以我們case closed不行這樣子"},{"start":6078.578,"end":6084.502,"text":"那我同時也要講我們自己這些從政的藍綠我們這些政治人物也是一樣這種案子嚴肅看待"},{"start":6086.994,"end":6109.946,"text":"不分藍綠不分政黨立場大家嚴肅面對嚴肅看待而不是說別的黨的案子就拿出來喔拿來這裡質詢不只偵查不只這個新聞報導我還把這個新聞報導拿來貼在做成powerpoint黨在這裡說啊你看這個案子周刊這樣報導所以這個案子你們有沒有查所以這個案子你怎麼樣然後自己黨的案子就說啊這個偵查怎麼這樣子不公開為什麼這樣子報導"},{"start":6112.52,"end":6112.66,"text":"好 謝謝 那我"},{"start":6141.872,"end":6167.864,"text":"我們下一位請謝榮介委員進行詢問主席我請保證麻煩部長委員早我剛才請委員講的我先來問一下"},{"start":6171.59,"end":6196.002,"text":"像剛才在講說 不能分一檔的案、一檔的案這是合理的像剛才鄭水鴻 拿媽媽罪在調供、在頂主席這個案、那個案現在到位要判沒罪他的意思是什麼?是柯P到位有可能判沒罪你怎麼知道?對不對?有罪推定這樣嗎?"},{"start":6197.626,"end":6224.156,"text":"法律事務的聽,但是這個個案部分我就不評論,因為...不是啊,這有可能嘛,任何一個案都有可能破沒罪。罪惡的人不一定有罪,對不對?已經...已經犯以裁定罪惡,罪惡的人一定有罪。基本上就是因為法官會被裁定罪惡就是犯罪嫌疑重大。罪惡的人一定有罪啦。這個要用證據來認定嘛。不是,我現在說事務嘛。"},{"start":6227.711,"end":6228.592,"text":"這十年來有一個統計資料就是"},{"start":6247.208,"end":6259.813,"text":"有羈押處分的這部分有訂稅率是﹐起訴率是98﹐98台南市的議長、費算、秀娥那些人全部都沒做啊對不對所以我說的我不是針對做一個案子啦我是在說照剛才委員說的啊提那個案子現在新委員還去說嘛不要用個案來處理啊"},{"start":6279.577,"end":6292.12,"text":"社會重大受謀的案件沒中今天你沒論司法、行政、立法都一樣為什麼媒體叫第四款所以NCC有什麼要注意這對媒體主律來說第四款媒體想要邀請所有的新聞來滿足社會大眾這是媒體的立場跟他的做法"},{"start":6307.847,"end":6314.629,"text":"但是當媒體說出我檢到這條線我已經漆七噸了我還在說變人漆的這你要自己看嘛這個各位報告這個有來約談了這個有那個我們都讓他漆的我們都念中華民國政府的心碎啊我們說變人漆的"},{"start":6329.468,"end":6357.896,"text":"再來,剛才說到政策不公開,但是有內閣可以公開嗎?是不是這樣破掉?對,這個有那個作為辦法,您有什麼規定?不公開的部分應該是由什麼人來公開?這個新聞發言人新聞的發言人不是由媒體來公開嗎?不過就是因為我們會新聞發言人對媒體來做一個,我們會發新聞...你是透過媒體去說到,但是媒體公開的都不是你公開的那部分"},{"start":6359.229,"end":6372.714,"text":"就是你沒有公開的部分,他都給你公開啊不過這個新聞報導的,這個報導有些是捕風捉影捕風捉影是你說的嘛,捕風捉影不會說大家親像聯繫局這樣,淡明的就對了啦親像聯繫局講到有影有影,有卡有手了,再來"},{"start":6382.796,"end":6391.905,"text":"鑑聽的藝文你還出來鑑聽的藝文還跑出來你說這偵查我不知道哪裡有監聽的藝文偵查有公開或不公開我不清楚監聽的藝文當他在報道說這鑑聽的藝文裡面有什麼東西的時候這就標示內部已經出問題了嘛"},{"start":6404.035,"end":6412.719,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個內部齁 我們會檢討而且會落實齁我沒有跟你說什麼人有問題啦 我也不會說檢察官有問題 只是過程中有很多人接觸到這些資料啊但是對我 對我就是人民領域司法的公信已經受損嘛 你聽我意思嗎"},{"start":6427.199,"end":6427.619,"text":"包括今天現在現狀況"},{"start":6455.292,"end":6477.077,"text":"這才是基亞中的 先稱基亞中的案件我相信 你的故鄉在台南 跟我一樣這四年來 台南這塊土地遭受多少困難 我控告幾件你們都沒有要公開 奇怪 我控告的 你們都問我偵查不公開你也公開一下 半天我出來看看 看得到嗎 對不對"},{"start":6481.858,"end":6496.108,"text":"現在來...委員你關心的...我們就是...台南這個案件...你不要在這裡跟我說個人啦你說個人 我也不會要求你說個人台南這個案件因為...它所有所創造的地點都在台南市了既然過去發生了一個不法現在還有偵查這一個不法這麼多沒聽一句就對了 繼續在開罰"},{"start":6509.11,"end":6522.658,"text":"你知不知道外面現在說什麼人們就用司法的力量簽署現時的既定利益者還要一幫新的集團來吃肉部長你聽到會變成什麼樣子我們的故鄉你如果辦三案了嘛只要有接到我們有查到的法我們就會反流反流就是為了簽署這些既定利益者就對了這些都太狡猾了"},{"start":6538.735,"end":6546.76,"text":"這案件都在外面,你們都要抓一個局長去關全的人都不知道,一個局長可以在七百千億的案件下手抓停?可以這樣嗎?不可能絕對不可能,再來因為現在警察中,警察不公開,所以我不說他的名字聽說這個人,因為他判斷過了案,過去戰經是執政黨的個戰"},{"start":6567.216,"end":6571.439,"text":"他有救報、有其他卡在骨頭上,你如果問骨頭上,我有接到情報聽說他要走,我是希望這部分,我現在正式給你記報我的消息是說,他準備要繞跑,繞跑去後面都看不到了"},{"start":6591.824,"end":6615.704,"text":"有什麼訪問的作為跟委員報告因為我對案件我是不干涉、不知道、不介入若說委員這部分有比較具體的一個情緒我們是可以提供給台南地檢署給城辦的地檢署可以依照228條訴訟228條告訴高花或把一些的犯罪性我們就跟他告發我想任何意見任何的意見"},{"start":6618.478,"end":6619.679,"text":"那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢問"},{"start":6658.715,"end":6677.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長麻煩部長部長早委員早我們今天還是就偵查不公開的部分如果兼顧犯罪偵查和人權保障進行"},{"start":6679.36,"end":6703.573,"text":"這個探討相關的問題那類似的這個命題我們在上會期也有討論過實際上還是有不少這個改善的空間那尤其我們看到諸多這個社會矚目的案件仍然有偵辦中的內容被報導出來也讓社會對於所謂的這個偵查不公開的原則和辦法是否有落實一再提出質疑那"},{"start":6704.673,"end":6733.001,"text":"從先前這個詢答時聽到部長您說到都有請相關人員堅守原則和作業辦法那也看到確實在法規的這個層面上有訂定了很多要點和規範更要定期的滾動檢討那依照偵查不公開作業辦法的第11條甚至要組成偵查不公開檢討小組但是從機關過去所公布的這個查辦處分情形"},{"start":6734.272,"end":6760.058,"text":"受到這個處分的案件數非常的稀少跟社會大眾在新聞實際的這個所見所聞感受上還是有比較大的這個落差那因此也不禁讓人質疑究竟有沒有拿出積極的作為來偵辦而媒體有這個新聞自由挖掘真相也是記者的天職可是民眾也有知的權利有時候甚至反過來是由媒體"},{"start":6761.438,"end":6782.614,"text":"來提供資訊給檢調還可能幫助到這個偵辦的進度但媒體既不負偵查的不公開義務我們也難以得知這個案件消息的來源而且也不大可能這個所有的消息都是由辦案的同仁主動洩漏給媒體來得知所以檢"},{"start":6784.241,"end":6802.978,"text":"從這個"},{"start":6803.434,"end":6826.513,"text":"偵查不公開作業辦法的第10條來看對於這個案件中依法可公開的事項應該統一由這個新聞發言人新聞的發言人或受指定的人員來發布而不應該由其他的人來說明就部長所了解我們現行的這個偵查案件都是按照這個規定來處理嗎那另外媒體採訪地點和採訪的這個"},{"start":6829.716,"end":6855.636,"text":"禁制區的畫社內部管理上是否有嚴格的要求請部長您大概說明一下謝謝委員的問題真的是了解很透徹那這部分那個新聞的發布的確是按照那個第10條的一個規定要指定新聞發言來發言或者是其他的因為個案的需要用其有個別指定的但是這個這個硬體因為委員"},{"start":6857.731,"end":6886.212,"text":"我們這部分因為我們這個這個整個一個聽社這個新舊不一那有些是新建的聽社他可以很充分在一個新聞的採訪點和禁制區那個很容易去做一個一個一個規劃那因為比較老的聽社這部分這個硬體的不足所以我們在台高檢有一個8月30號的一個以及4月20號的一個一個一個一個"},{"start":6888.393,"end":6910.895,"text":"一個延伸的會議我們是用因地制宜的一個方式但是我們也是希望提醒說我們各檢察機關在發布新聞的話以及在這部分我們可以儘量是落實這個偵查不公開的一些的相關的一個規定我覺得我們還是要盤點一下盤點一下然後需要改善的還是要去改善"},{"start":6912.416,"end":6937.536,"text":"那從這個法務部的這個報告當中我們還看到每年會舉辦這個檢查機關發言人的這個研習對此我有兩個疑惑第一個就是這個發言人教育訓練的這個內容和辦理的情形目前為何那第二若有關這個案件不實的這個謠言還有闢謠的這個工作也會是由我們發言人來負責嗎對"},{"start":6939.994,"end":6956.222,"text":"他那個譬如說現在有一些的偵查不公開的作業報告第8條第7款如果說對這些的報導或社群網路等等的如果說有一些跟事實不符的話那第8條"},{"start":6957.302,"end":6957.382,"text":"發言人："},{"start":6978.561,"end":7004.009,"text":"這邊有這個查詢到部分我們地檢署定有這個門禁管制實施要點來落實維安的這個工作盡可能避免嫌詐人等進入到這個辦案的區域進而接觸到機敏的這個相關案件內容那我想再請教部長就是是否我們地檢署都定有相關的規範或對門禁有統一的要求在公開和辦公"},{"start":7004.751,"end":7008.525,"text":"辦案場域的門禁分級目前管理上是否有足夠的嚴謹"},{"start":7011.277,"end":7035.189,"text":"那這部分因為我剛才有跟委員報告事實上因為整個一個辦公廳設的一個設備的一個問題那所以我們是高檢署邀請各地檢署我們有開會就是用因地制宜的方式但是有門禁管制這部分那我們希望能夠各地檢署能夠訂那個門禁管制的這些的行政規則"},{"start":7036.349,"end":7051.997,"text":"那也避免外界對這個是出入的這些的一些的疑慮影響案件的一個偵辦這部分我們希望他都有定那這部分我們也會要求好那我想我們這個檢查機關在門禁管制上嚴謹與否不但"},{"start":7053.958,"end":7082.442,"text":"是為了防止案件的這個洩漏那同時也要保障到辦案人員的人身安全避免受到外在影響來干擾我們辦案也希望在門禁的這個管控上能夠再更加精進甚至採用更多科技方法避免這個閒雜人等能夠輕易的進到較這個敏感或被禁制的這個場域當中那另外則是有關這個被告或是"},{"start":7083.086,"end":7098.767,"text":"犯罪嫌疑人他資訊容易被公開或是拍攝的疑慮例如在北檢似乎因為地形和建築的因素任何人都能夠由上往下拍"},{"start":7101.295,"end":7118.74,"text":"車道的這個進出的這個位置那要落實無罪推定的這個原則求車道是不是也應該劃定為這個採訪禁制區那因為對於這個被告或是犯罪嫌疑人個人的這個名譽恐怕會造成較難回復的這個損害"},{"start":7121.041,"end":7149.918,"text":"那是不是請我們法務部進行盤點檢討考慮對於這個檢查機關在硬體上的隱蔽性進行適當的改善在人權的維護上能夠有更妥善的這個保障謝謝委員那個的確是每個地檢署的這個因為礙於設備的關係以及空間的關係的確可能這部分我們在盤點看各個機關我們在盤點用順便報告跟委員來做一個答覆好"},{"start":7150.958,"end":7154.322,"text":"同樣的問題我也想請教警政署陳副署長"},{"start":7164.563,"end":7192.438,"text":"副署長在6月份的時候監察院曾經提出糾正常常看到犯罪嫌疑人接受警訊及移送遞檢署時被媒體貼近拍攝採訪那也曾經有警察機關提供犯罪接受警訊或是被害人的報案相關的照片那我想請教我們警政署這部分是如何來檢討來落實偵查不公開的原則"},{"start":7193.406,"end":7193.506,"text":"就...就這樣"},{"start":7221.417,"end":7224.071,"text":"這是要得當然我們修正的是蠻多的啦好"},{"start":7225.009,"end":7251.201,"text":"好那這個部分是不是會後再請我們警政署這邊給我一個詳細的好那我想在這個法制面行政面還有業務面以及我們硬體上的這個通盤改進之外還要有這個積極的檢討跟查處不要讓我們辛苦的這些辦案人員背上莫名的黑鍋那偵查不公開的原則也是一定要落實"},{"start":7252.401,"end":7277.902,"text":"但社會矚目的這個案件若涉及公共利益民眾就有知的權利那媒體也有新聞自由需要找到兼顧的平衡點這部分也請在場機關首長一起來努力我們一起來維護司法的公正和公信力以上謝謝委員那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行詢答"},{"start":7300.478,"end":7301.939,"text":"等一下那個pop point齁"},{"start":7333.709,"end":7334.229,"text":"移民署移民署怎樣"},{"start":7373.358,"end":7389.807,"text":"他在2019年入境台灣他在2020年發布紅色通緝但是我方不知道然後呢他在台灣取得了拘留之後呢移民署後來發現有這個犯罪的情況了他就要限期出境強制出境對不對但是呢強制出境呢"},{"start":7390.99,"end":7420.197,"text":"有個問題阿他出境你覺得他是拿哪一國的護照他是拿西班牙護照出境嗎這個我不清楚你覺得合理推斷他如果拿西班牙護照入境他可能拿西班牙護照出境然後呢他去新加坡新加坡有沒有准他簽證不知道但是呢新加坡拒絕他入境因為他有紅色的通緝不讓他入境新加坡有這個權利原班機就回來了對不對這為什麼會回來呢因為法院撤銷了行政法院撤銷了他的行政裁定是不是這樣子"},{"start":7421.189,"end":7430.654,"text":"那請問一下,你不見得知道他是騎西班牙護照的,那我們怎麼知道他在被紅色通緝?警政署知道嗎?警政署不要讓我有時間,剛剛請你們待命了齁我們看下一頁,警政署他怎麼知道的?跟委員報告這是國際刑警組織通報的你們什麼時候知道的?不知道?好沒關係,那他現在人在台灣了嗎?"},{"start":7445.782,"end":7447.383,"text":"他如果西班牙護照被註銷他還能夠被送到新加坡或西班牙嗎?"},{"start":7478.2,"end":7505.477,"text":"來,國際刑警有沒有經驗?警政署有沒有經驗?你們覺得呢?都沒有?都不知道?那個,警政署有沒有知道?部長知不知道?不清楚,你們要知道我看下一題就知道了,好來,往下看你還有一個什麼東西想跳上來,往上跳有沒有關聯?他是詐騙回台嘛來,有個橘子"},{"start":7506.448,"end":7530.615,"text":"到日本避風頭那他的朋友說他去遊學他現在是不是被列被告了是不是有個被列被告在日本滯留他這個已經被被告了那怎麼辦能叫他回來接受偵查嗎他是留學簽證欸他在日本他沒有違反規定日本也不要註銷他的簽證他就可以待在日本啊"},{"start":7531.704,"end":7549.931,"text":"部長怎麼辦 怎麼讓被告回來這部分齁 如果說有通緝的話 我想我們那個會檢察官或 通緝了沒有這個還沒有通緝 那如果通緝了可以叫他回來嗎註銷 這個就可以用25條 那個護照條例25條好 說得很好 25條註銷 我們來看一下有沒有辦法註銷齁 來往下看來 我們通緝啊 你直接說通緝了 本來說"},{"start":7556.974,"end":7580.393,"text":"如果被告人在國內的時候通緝可以逮捕人在國外你說要註銷他的護照是不是這樣子這個我們目前的說法可以就是可以嗎外交部領事裁判就依照你們有確定我們看一下往下看他現在你在發布他通緝假設發布他通緝他要遣返回台或他滯留日本或遣往第三國他可不可以遣往第三國"},{"start":7582.384,"end":7603.789,"text":"這份註銷護照的話 如果註銷護照 除了他有第二本國家的護照 不然他就沒辦法選第三國了 是不是這樣子好 那往下看以前呢 到底紀律上有沒有辦法註銷護照以前有位彭先生啊 他是遭通氣候護照被註銷我們了解的時候呢 他不是註銷 他是原護照到期去申請換發 就被扣了"},{"start":7604.619,"end":7619.992,"text":"他到時候就不扣了扣了之後他就沒有護照了所以他現在呢他就沒辦法到其他國家了是不是這樣子是那你們根據領事事務局告訴你們怎麼樣可以註銷通緝犯在國外的通緝犯的護照往下看有嗎怎麼註銷第幾條23條還是25條25條第二項25條第二項"},{"start":7625.475,"end":7626.636,"text":"那這樣子你們開始做了沒有?"},{"start":7653.879,"end":7659.562,"text":"目前的話我想這部分北檢會依照這個我相信因為我沒辦法去過問這個個案我相信成辦的地檢署成辦檢管應該會用這個方式來處理因為我沒辦法去過問"},{"start":7669.386,"end":7688.116,"text":"所以我秀出來的護照條例第25條沒有秀出來第二項再回過頭去援引第23項23條的第一項第二款司法或軍法機關通知主管機關那這個司法機關是我們的司法院是哪一個司法機關防護秘書長剛剛部長說的對嗎這司法機關是指誰是檢查機關所以檢查機關就會註銷對現在那個"},{"start":7698.686,"end":7700.927,"text":"那另外的哪些人要遵守偵查不公開的人員?"},{"start":7709.342,"end":7737.123,"text":"這個在作為辦法第5條有第1項、第2項都有規定就是警察嘛、檢察官嘛、辯護人嘛對不對這個蠻多的齁其實事實上那個修正的說明被告有沒有保密的義務、證人有沒有保密的義務就是被告跟證人沒保密是嘛所以他會講出去是所以如果證人跟被告沒有保密的義務他會跟記者講因為記者會問他啊OK好那往下看啦好我們往下看齁那記者知道了"},{"start":7738.642,"end":7752.661,"text":"你可以問他說是證人告訴你的還是被告告訴你的嗎你可以問他你可以要求他嗎你們要查如果是證人跟被告沒有保密的義務的人他洩露去了有沒有妨礙秘密偵查"},{"start":7754.957,"end":7777.276,"text":"這個我們最多啦最多就是依照第6條的規定就是跟他講說小市的如果公開揭露偵查資訊程序內容要見會發生什麼不好的影響你只是告訴他嘛你不能限制他嘛他告訴記者記者報表出來的他不告訴你是誰告訴他的可不可以記者有沒有不透露下來的人的權利"},{"start":7779.097,"end":7805.516,"text":"這是一個...我們副...副民事長記者可不可以不透露消息來源?那個...跟委員報告那我們的書面報告也有那在他們是依照一些的規範裡面是認為人權公約的規範你認為是他可以不透露是嗎?所以如果記者不告訴你誰跟他講的他可能是被告講的可能是證人講的你連續告訴被告跟證人你們不要亂講都沒有機會啊往下看好那記者如果沒有不公開的義務他有沒有拒絕證詞的權利?"},{"start":7807.557,"end":7808.559,"text":"有沒有拒絕證言的範圍?他不再拒絕證言的範圍"},{"start":7823.032,"end":7839.958,"text":"是嘛所以說部長你們現在認為妨礙偵查不公開如果有媒體報導你們要怎麼辦把記者用證人方式來傳喚用調查洩密罪的方式請他說到底作證一下是誰告訴你的可以這樣做嗎各位報告如果說有這個外面有"},{"start":7847.56,"end":7867.888,"text":"我們有這種我們分擔在處理的話齁我們就是會請記者來當證人那他是證人嘛他是證人他如果被告他接默權嘛對不對他就不講嘛那證人他要義務講嘛對不對有沒有用過這個方式要記者講我們是會問他記者他說保護消息的來源那他他可以拒絕作證嗎他不能拒絕那怎麼辦"},{"start":7869.168,"end":7889.12,"text":"大概193條他這部分有拒絕證言的話他會怎麼樣?可以裁罰三萬元以下裁罰三萬元以下你們有沒有開罰過?以前有開罰過那最近這麼多分分鬧鬧你們有沒有在調查洩密案呢?最近這一連串的所謂的偵查被公開最近有沒有?最近有有"},{"start":7889.98,"end":7918.229,"text":"那查了之後有沒有傳喚記者這個有傳喚記者那記者有沒有作證這個有作證你沒有拒絕證言所以沒有被罰這個我不清楚不過這個要按照那你要不要查一下這個新聞稿裡面齁它裡面有做一個說明的啦有一個說明的這個新聞稿就是9月16號的一個新聞稿所以怎麼樣說明什麼就是說查證信那個記者的是依據消息來是轉述的"},{"start":7919.505,"end":7931.49,"text":"所以他有透露他的消息來源他作證有透露他的消息來源這個消息來源可能是被告可能是證人你們沒有證實但是絕對不是有保密義務的警察司法官是不是這樣的意思辯護人"},{"start":7940.575,"end":7955.524,"text":"所以你們可以跟大家講嘛如果記者知道了他也交代了消息來源了只要沒有保密義務的那三種人你沒辦法他嘛他就沒有保密義務是的好來接下來我們往下一條來那個那個副秘書長"},{"start":7958.568,"end":7986.088,"text":"現在記者如果說記者說我為了我們保護消息來源希望未來修法刑訴第182條比照182條列入醫師、藥師、心理師等等等這些人你們司法院的看法怎麼樣新聞自由啊你們用證人傳喚我我要告訴告訴你是誰告訴我的啊那如果說我要保密呢要列入182條啊你們的態度怎麼樣刑訴是你們管的"},{"start":7990.837,"end":8015.363,"text":"哪個國家有在我們類似刑訴第182條把新聞工作者列入得拒絕證言的權利?有沒有?來回去查一下我希望最後一題希望你們會同其他機關包括如何去研議護照註銷防止逃亡嚴防這些刑事偵查當中可能的被告或招通緝的人"},{"start":8016.348,"end":8018.79,"text":"至於媒體是否能適用包括偵查不公開以及他有沒有刑訴第182條可以偵略適用的對象他有拒絕證詞的權利這個請司法院也去了解各國的情況給我們回答好不好"},{"start":8044.508,"end":8061.828,"text":"我今天的題目就是說大家討論偵查不公開其實也是在討論我們國內的新聞自由華盛頓郵報當年在水門事件在越戰調查報告當中都有類似的情況他們的最高法院也就做出對新聞自由的保障"},{"start":8062.549,"end":8079.597,"text":"那如果未來我們台灣有明確的規定那麼新聞自由他想辦法去發掘知識想辦法去滿足社會大眾知的權利如果我們要限制他就要從修改法律來著手而不是在這邊改一些什麼框定一個採訪範圍啦限制我們檢察官跟記者接觸啦"},{"start":8083.478,"end":8106.469,"text":"這些都不能夠杜絕跟防止在新聞自由的情況之下媒體就其他無偵查保密義務的人的身上取得類似這些案情的來源造成了我們偵查不公開三個部分為了避免審判不公平為了避免侵害隱私避免這些情況發生副部長同不同意?同意部長要不要坐?要好謝謝"},{"start":8110.562,"end":8130.989,"text":"好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行詢討我們現在先宣告一下我們剛剛本來宣告11點要處理臨時提案但是剛剛那個吳世耀委員有提出請求所以我們待會會在吳世耀委員詢討完畢之後再進行臨時提案的處理好 謝謝"},{"start":8133.226,"end":8140.928,"text":"主席有請部長、廉政署、調查局、警政署部長請問您你有看過貓玩老鼠嗎?"},{"start":8157.795,"end":8182.654,"text":"你有在滑短影片嗎?沒有不管是Youtuber啊還是說Rio啊還是說Trey啊還是說Tiktok啊你有在滑短影片嗎?沒有我因為太忙了我沒有時間去如果你有滑短影片你一定會看過貓玩老鼠的短影片因為在這些短影片上面是非常紅的那你知道貓是怎麼樣玩老鼠的嗎?"},{"start":8185.865,"end":8188.828,"text":"負責 我不清楚負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼�"},{"start":8213.198,"end":8225.188,"text":"我沒有養貓所以我不清楚我告訴你部長你怎麼會沒有看過現在就是活生生血淋淋法務部在玩貓玩老鼠啊你知道在玩誰嗎我們的檢調司法單位在玩誰你知道嗎就在玩柯文哲就在玩柯文哲我先跟部長說"},{"start":8240.202,"end":8262.092,"text":"柯文哲如果貪污受賄今天違法犯紀我贊成今天我們司法查辦他把他關起來可是今天在柯文哲案件上我跟部長說真的是說實在話真的是太過分啦看不下去偵查不公開"},{"start":8263.991,"end":8292.768,"text":"被凌辱到這種程度是司法之恥是法務部跟檢調之恥我當然知道部長你跟我講了一百遍說不是檢察官放的沒關係我後面再跟你慢慢講我想請教一下我在透過立法院新聞知識庫去查過去三個月有關柯文哲的新聞找到了4057則這個資料庫沒有包括大多數的網媒跟電子媒體"},{"start":8294.31,"end":8303.883,"text":"裡面琳瑯滿目阿都是偵查大公開的新聞阿我整齊幾個新聞就叫部長阿好不好我想請教就在今天的新聞"},{"start":8305.222,"end":8305.482,"text":"簡連：喔!"},{"start":8305.482,"end":8331.708,"text":"廉政署也進來啦!偵辦金華城容積率弊案．懷疑前臺北市長、民眾黨主席柯文哲明知違背法律開綠燈讓金華城取得超高容積率涉土利．亦懷疑柯文哲受賄其中一種可能管道就是包含虛擬貨幣簡連日前搜索時扣到柯文哲一個冷錢包"},{"start":8332.828,"end":8360.518,"text":"正在破解當中來想請教部長我幫你回答啦齁你一定說這不是檢察官放的嘛對不對這是不是檢察官放的我相信不是檢察官而且你相信啊我相信你上次也相信說今天你上次也相信說今天大法官實質廢死之後齁然後法官會同意你的申請羈押不把那37個死刑犯放出來啦但你相信有用嗎"},{"start":8363.1,"end":8371.054,"text":"部長,你會相信能夠去左右法院的判決嗎?你會相信真的能夠代表檢察官沒有洩密嗎?"},{"start":8373.288,"end":8399.422,"text":"我只問啊,你就是一句相信檢察官我告訴你啦,北檢最聰明啦,說無法證實啦北檢跟我講無法證實啦因為我沒辦法去干涉、指導、解悟各樣,所以那你要相信什麼?你一不干涉、二不指導、三不了解、四不查雜你現在跟我講相信,相信有意義嗎?來沒關係,我跟你講因為你回答太多遍,我可以幫你倒背如流不是檢察官放的啦,結束啦"},{"start":8400.402,"end":8418.583,"text":"那我想請問齁 如果檢聯真的扣了這個那個冷錢包 不關冷錢包啦 反正任何證物啦 扣了以後請問 會經手哪些人偵查訊息會經手哪些人 檢察官一定會有嘛 懲辦檢察官這個這個我不清楚 反正會接觸到拜託"},{"start":8420.319,"end":8431.166,"text":"法務部長你是幹過檢察官的你要不要請主席來開示一下因為對個案會介紹有所謂有所謂的主席我會議詢問啦民進黨最愛打開時間暫停我中止我會議詢問因為這個問題要問專業嘛主席請教我會議詢問一下法務部不肯回答請問你身為檢察官當過檢察官我不是稱辦檢察官沒關係啦沒關係部長你先休息一下我問專業的你今天你當過檢察官你不懂問專業的嘛專業的來啊"},{"start":8450.7,"end":8463.418,"text":"主席會議詢問我想請教主席今天如果真的收到柯文哲冷錢包請問除了檢察官會所謂的經手這個訊息之外還有誰"},{"start":8465.331,"end":8466.551,"text":"部長 專業檢察官示範什麼叫做回答問題"},{"start":8494.229,"end":8512.913,"text":"他講的錯了嗎?我們主席說的錯了沒有?有沒有錯?我準備這是要跟委員報告就是反正第五條你一開始跟我講你不知道現在你終於要準備了謝謝主席幫你示範你開始準備我不談談那個沒有關係來來來我告訴你喔我要到我要的答案了啦你會不會再補充沒關係來 廉政署是你放的嗎?我們嚴守偵查部門欸欸欸 非常好啊你也不知道啊因為不是你不是承辦人啦對不對來 警政署"},{"start":8524.011,"end":8552.014,"text":"警察放的嗎?這個案警察應該沒有接觸非常好來 我們請司法院司法院我們的副秘書長各位請上來一下法官會放嗎?不會嘛太完美了 通通都不放鐵定是柯文哲律師放出去整柯文哲啊柯文哲太英明了搞一個律師去整他一天到晚放消息整死柯文哲原來那隻貓"},{"start":8554.082,"end":8557.123,"text":"不是司法檢調是柯文哲律師欸來來部長部長你相信嗎柯文哲那麼蠢阿搞一個律師一天到晚洩他的消息弄他阿"},{"start":8567.463,"end":8588.696,"text":"所以我要跟你講 沒關係 我知道 因為我說我哪裡沒辦法啦你一直跟我講不是檢察官 對不對 證書也否認 廉政署也否認然後呢 司法院也否認啊 大家都否認啊 否認得非常開心啊 對不對我也沒辦法 因為我不是檢察官 我不是偵查主體啦我也沒有偵查工具啦 偵查主體是誰 犯罪偵查主體是誰"},{"start":8597.383,"end":8615.667,"text":"回答我嘛 不然我要會議詢問 不要逼我會議詢問嘛來 會議詢問 主席 時間暫停犯罪偵查主體 請問我們主席是誰啊 他不告訴我不知道目前我國是單一偵查主體是由檢察官非常謝謝檢察官三個字你耗我10秒鐘再問你偵查主體是誰檢察官對不對啊 就檢察官啊"},{"start":8623.365,"end":8648.805,"text":"所以我要跟部長說啊來我來問你下一個問題請問洩漏秘密啊洩漏偵查中的秘密是犯哪一條罪啊那個刑法132條第一項嘛公務員洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防以外一秘密之文書、圖畫、消息、物品除三年以下有期徒刑偵查不公開被打破不是行政範疇的問題"},{"start":8650.633,"end":8677.196,"text":"偵查不公開被打破是犯罪問題沒錯吧?如果有人洩密是犯罪問題吧?這個如果有的具體事項我們就會演講到終於我覺得部長經過我們會議主席再三的來去回答問題之後現在部長回答問題稍微比較順暢一點點我告訴你來那我就問啦我上次問了你一個案子你說你不認同"},{"start":8679.172,"end":8703.192,"text":"竊盜案的偵查主體是誰?犯罪答對了嘛當然都是檢察官嘛阿如果發生兩千件竊盜案今天我問部長說欸奇怪啦一件都沒抓到欸一件都沒起訴欸一件都沒判刑欸然後部長跟我講阿這不是檢察官偷的你能夠用這句話交代我嗎"},{"start":8706.707,"end":8722.393,"text":"當然不能啊那我同樣問你啊這麼多 你的法務部都列幾千件啦我大概數字跟你講然後到現在為止你起訴幾件又處分了45件我起訴啦 犯罪耶我不講行政處分 我講起訴幾件啦"},{"start":8724.539,"end":8741.568,"text":"他是犯罪事實 如果有洩密就是犯罪事實啊這個 我想偵查不公開不是就一定就會成立一百三十二我告訴你當然你不抓就不成立嘛還不簡單我告訴你我今天如果說我們法務部說我跟你講竊盜我跟你講我只要證明不是檢察官弄的我不抓竊盜也不成立啊"},{"start":8743.527,"end":8768.752,"text":"你現在脫離人民感情多遠啊我今天講的還不只是柯文哲我講的是犯罪的偵查不公開已經琳瑯滿目到可以百貨公司陳列商品啦剛剛委員講的說七千多件那個是屬於媒體的報導的那個不是是我要講是媒體有報導的新聞我告訴你你們自己都知道媒體報導的新聞是這樣還搞了七千多件不只七千多件今天上半年加兩千件是九千多件你們成長速度非常快來我跟你講"},{"start":8773.593,"end":8788.244,"text":"我剛剛講忍錢包因為只有這一件來週刊報導柯文哲隨身諜內的金主名單黃崇仁董事長名列其中請問是不是檢察官放我幫你回答不是檢察官不用查了"},{"start":8789.325,"end":8814.049,"text":"週刊報導：民眾黨主席涉及金華城弊案建聯．發動搜索前要貼身帳房舉止許子瑜出貨幣風頭．如今更掌握科下達重要指示給舉止．要他保護好手上400萬．還要到民眾黨拿錢請問有沒有洩密．我幫你回答沒有．因為不是檢察官放的．所以沒有洩密罪柯文哲被找到閒私簡訊．柯文哲USB寄的審慶金1500．柯文哲圈圈叉叉點點點"},{"start":8818.49,"end":8829.505,"text":"我告訴你過去這三個月你們現在司法檢調掌握偵查訊息一天到晚公開然後你跟我講不是檢察官放的不是廉政署放的結束了"},{"start":8831.36,"end":8847.709,"text":"那我才跟你講為什麼把偵查不公開廢掉嘛接觸那個第5條那個作為報的第5條裡面來我想請教我們就來問下一個問題阿偵查內容程序的我想問問問部長齁來看有沒有有沒有好好的去查案阿好不好你跟我講查不到這樣"},{"start":8848.869,"end":8877.929,"text":"偵查不公開事實放在眼前齁你不去查查了是犯罪啦 查到是犯罪啦查不到就無能啦就這麼簡單那我馬上來跟您提供一個訊息啊請問部長你們到底不是沒去查啦你們有去查三立記者啦 對不對有查過三立記者如果今天齁你們已經發現齁有人公開指稱調查官跟特定媒體合作洩露這個偵查資訊有人公開表示齁他就是"},{"start":8878.969,"end":8893.742,"text":"特定檢察官跟特定媒體合作洩露偵查資訊請問我們今天局長我們部長會不會去查我們請局長回答好了來來來調查局局長來局長副局長會不會去查有人公開直接講啦"},{"start":8898.308,"end":8920.382,"text":"如果公開有這樣的訊息的話我們一定會去瞭解一定會去查一定會 保證感謝你馬上提供你約談一個人之前我要問再問部長三立記者事件如果有人公開聲稱知道是哪間媒體跟哪個檢察官合作法務部要不要去確認一下約談一下至少要不要"},{"start":8922.874,"end":8949.597,"text":"剛剛局長說要,你不要跟我講就不要了那個行訴228條,如果說有真的違反偵查本官有涉及到132條好啦好啦,那局長你上來,局長你上來我對部長我已經是尊敬到無以復加了啦每個問題都要給我繞一大圈來,請問局長你剛剛答應說要查嘛,對不對?沒錯吧?對啊,如果有人就說要知道哪些媒體跟哪個檢察官合作啊、洩密啊,要不要查?"},{"start":8950.72,"end":8967.312,"text":"喂你剛講是調查官如果是調查官的話齁我們一定會去調查又要推給法務部啦來沒關係請放影片哪個檢察官特地會跟哪個媒體配合這個大家都很清楚來來哪個檢察官他知道哪個檢察官喔會跟哪個媒體他知道哪個媒體喔欸都超級具體啦查不查啊"},{"start":8980.174,"end":8996.983,"text":"先約談一下柯建民吧他都公開講他知道啦那你要不要查一下也許他就是他跟你你查了以後他說冷銷我也可以接受啦但是你已經講過你要不要查對不對不要講個案今天所有的案件都類似這個狀況以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請戴氏保委員發言"},{"start":9019.046,"end":9041.133,"text":"謝謝主席這個先進有請法務部的部長麻煩部長以及NCC的翁代理主委翁主委早還有這個廉政署的馮署長以及調查局的吳副局長麻煩"},{"start":9050.841,"end":9078.535,"text":"幾位長官這個剛剛看到部長很辛苦一直在defense偵查不公開的事情其實你現在隨便到台灣的任何的城市從北到南從南到北任何的一個角落去問張山理事隨便問我們偵查有沒有公開或者說偵查不公開"},{"start":9080.424,"end":9099.322,"text":"百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一則從最近的看到柯文哲的事情一路的好像北檢跟這個週刊是聯合作戰了"},{"start":9100.396,"end":9124.427,"text":"穿同一條褲子的好像是同一個單位的部長難道你你不覺得就外面我我就告訴你外面現在看到的是什麼看到說週刊報個料然後呢媒體就開始大幅報導真正節目就播然後那個就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判我原來就不相信了"},{"start":9126.175,"end":9138.621,"text":"我原來都不相信了後面一奇怪怎麼他一播一登然後呢這個媒體再一登再一真人節目再一講那過兩天都真的都真的"},{"start":9140.031,"end":9168.524,"text":"可見得這個洩密很嚴重阿部長你講一下我認為媒體的報導有它的一個媒體報導是有它的天子它那個報導大部分都就是捕風捉影嘛演繹嘛那媒體的一個娛樂的一個效果嘛那我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位都要嚴格落實偵查不公如果有查到有這些的違反偵查不公我們就是淹犯了那我想這個我們"},{"start":9169.164,"end":9175.127,"text":"你們調查結果都沒有啊都說沒有違反不公開都說沒有公開啊我們第一個線一定要是從那個媒體我們要請媒體來約談媒體嘛你們辦了幾屆我們總共有15屆這幾年了有15屆有成立最近最近因為最近柯P的事情柯P的事情讓了瘋狗魚魚哪一屆今天有一屆什麼時候辦的"},{"start":9196.072,"end":9197.393,"text":"所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過"},{"start":9206.557,"end":9229.342,"text":"現在有在分案在瞭解就是調查到底是...都沒有報告!抗議者案子都沒有報告!現在有在偵辦啊!蛤?有在偵辦啊!有嗎?不!你剛剛說一件!花零的!那個那個就成立處分因為這是處分已經調查後成立的違反偵查不公開的是有一件但是現在委員會關心的這些現在的這些媒體在報導的這些那個北捷有在分案在處分"},{"start":9230.242,"end":9235.904,"text":"我原來啊還對你們有抱一絲絲的覺得說哎呀我相信司法啦相信法務部啊結果看到前幾天有個新聞媒體講說要把舉子列為被告欸今天果然被列為被告啊吼吼有夠準啦媒體這麼厲害這如果不是你們洩露出去了怕死了不愛審他都講了前幾天講了要把舉子列為被告啊就已經列為被告了有夠準啦有夠準啦"},{"start":9259.412,"end":9260.233,"text":"什麼還厲害不公開的是程序內容所得新證都不可以公開結果現在公開得一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":9278.695,"end":9281.338,"text":"這個不能夠說是我們洩漏的如果說這是真的有這回事也不能說我們洩漏因為可以接觸到這些資訊的人實在是太多了這個委員你有細看那個作業報第5條第6條你就可以很清楚"},{"start":9299.219,"end":9310.347,"text":"這裏面包括偵查系統的、調查的我提醒你啊我提醒你啊檢察院糾正過警政署及調查局檢察院正式糾正警政署調查局洩密違反偵查不公開請教那個翁代理主委啊"},{"start":9322.267,"end":9341.416,"text":"委員好他們在媒體揭露有部分是真的有部分是假的這部分你們要不要去查一下這個東西報告委員這個我們都有受理民眾來申訴之後我們就按照那個有一個SOP就是我們會去把這個那個內容測錄帶調出來然後請"},{"start":9343.557,"end":9353.949,"text":"那個相關的當事人呃陳述意見那有現在有11件已經在處理了最近有沒有關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理有有幾件幾件呃"},{"start":9356.024,"end":9357.405,"text":"提到我們那個節目內容廣告諮詢委員會那有一定的時間"},{"start":9385.786,"end":9390.607,"text":"法務部的正部長還有翁代理主委你們兩個責任很重現在你們兩個由於消極的不作為或者故意的配合特別是法務部現在已經跟靜州幹事綁在一起了你們完全綁在一起了綁在一起了故事大家的了解就很簡單你們有檢察官怎麼樣直接進監"},{"start":9414.394,"end":9417.378,"text":"這個沒有證據這個沒有證據丟出來丟出來然後我話沒有講你不要急嘛然後呢就透過這樣子媒體這樣子操作就輿論定罪"},{"start":9432.022,"end":9435.666,"text":"這個要辦人的講證據我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯沒有人反對沒有人反對但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作操作沒有人能認同沒有人可以接受我也沒辦法認同那個委員就是說"},{"start":9453.246,"end":9453.546,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長"},{"start":9480.089,"end":9504.762,"text":"誰在摧毀司法的公信力誰在摧毀司法的公信力從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假借著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是罪行對於個案"},{"start":9508.266,"end":9535.515,"text":"進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的"},{"start":9536.567,"end":9557.768,"text":"我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案"},{"start":9560.049,"end":9583.227,"text":"如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎"},{"start":9585.543,"end":9587.624,"text":"民進黨執政之後．面對司法改革．我們知道要趕快來趕進度．因為"},{"start":9614.881,"end":9632.118,"text":"我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的部長法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有"},{"start":9634.204,"end":9649.708,"text":"法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場"},{"start":9661.024,"end":9685.121,"text":"所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公"},{"start":9685.962,"end":9712.461,"text":"要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化"},{"start":9713.8,"end":9739.516,"text":"民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁"},{"start":9740.316,"end":9753.957,"text":"所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對"},{"start":9755.191,"end":9780.948,"text":"當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁"},{"start":9782.287,"end":9804.943,"text":"司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年"},{"start":9812.208,"end":9833.477,"text":"而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調"},{"start":9835.467,"end":9857.348,"text":"9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會再做的一次民調有信心又回到47"},{"start":9860.353,"end":9860.453,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9869.557,"end":9895.965,"text":"偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大"},{"start":9897.372,"end":9913.846,"text":"最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力"},{"start":9915.598,"end":9934.127,"text":"這就是政治力不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些的偵查的內容程序的"},{"start":9934.787,"end":9935.948,"text":"全部都歸給你們來承擔 太不公平"},{"start":9955.171,"end":9983.84,"text":"太不公平而且媒體的很多的報導他可能是捕風捉影他得到是不是有一個或是問他一句話就整個衍生了很多的因為他們也會做功課嘛所以您可以管理的督導的是我們檢調的同仁司法工作者其他有太多可能洩密的壓力破口你沒有辦法管得到嘛提審羈押程序的那一段我沒辦法去處理啊是所以呢下一頁"},{"start":9985.487,"end":10012.323,"text":"司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道四﹗針對拎北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢"},{"start":10014.032,"end":10036.067,"text":"來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的"},{"start":10042.217,"end":10044.339,"text":"黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛 對不對"},{"start":10052.372,"end":10057.313,"text":"如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的"},{"start":10080.953,"end":10098.983,"text":"就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來扭頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊"},{"start":10102.096,"end":10103.397,"text":"再下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊"},{"start":10120.891,"end":10123.213,"text":"任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中"},{"start":10150.734,"end":10155.593,"text":"這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?"},{"start":10163.521,"end":10180.447,"text":"好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案"},{"start":10186.01,"end":10214.73,"text":"來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議"},{"start":10216.089,"end":10221.233,"text":"國內有在野黨委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外"},{"start":10237.424,"end":10260.308,"text":"也有協力者一起來鬥臭司法中國也可以把台灣的司法司法查閉來搞認知作戰這就是我們共同面對的困難我後面沒有辦法提喔偵查不公開我們還是想方設法盡量做有任何個案如果有涉及檢調內部可能的洩漏該查就查該辦就辦這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦"},{"start":10264.073,"end":10280.379,"text":"好謝謝時間到謝謝謝謝部長等一下我質詢的時候我會跟你談論什麼叫干涉個案你剛剛那邊胡說八道等一下我們再來講好那待會我們現在先處理臨時提案的部分部長請回好來那個臨時提案部分請宣讀"},{"start":10291.289,"end":10309.589,"text":"臨時提案一,修正本略以,要求法務部於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告,內容因並含一,演繹案件起訴後得公開之新聞檢討報告項目,適度揭露檢討過程結論,括弧不僅僅是檢討建樹,處分人次,還有如何避免再度發生"},{"start":10310.149,"end":10339.272,"text":"非僅單純之統計數字．使能澄清檢討之力度．讓國人看到法務部捍衛程序爭議之破例與決心．並還給檢察官乾淨的司法環境。二、研議全國各地檢及所屬偵查機關．強化事法性監督．針對已增結之案件．除各機關檢討小組外．建立高等檢察署之複合機制．包括各偵查機關檢討小組審議案件時．若所檢討之案件有澄清人關乎檢舉人．研議是否請澄清人．"},{"start":10339.932,"end":10364.378,"text":"或所委任之人到會陳述意見之機會．並將審議結果及理由以書面告知。指定由天下第一檢美譽之臺灣臺北地方檢察署作為貫徹偵查不公開制度之示範機關．劃設採訪禁止區．落實門禁．將拜訪之外界人士．包括媒體記者進出管制區登記．並設記者接待室．獨立與檢察官辦公空間住所．建立其他防範違反"},{"start":10365.738,"end":10391.312,"text":"偵查不公開制度之具體措施再請全國各檢察署檢察長檢討後由立法院司法及法制委員會則起考察提案人委員吳宗憲、聯署人委員黃國昌、羅志強宣讀完畢請問各位委員就臨時提案的部分有沒有要補充說明因為這個文字部分有跟提案有跟那個機關溝通過好請說"},{"start":10395.259,"end":10406.459,"text":"這個有文字有做過修改這是我是可以接受但是我是在這邊希望齁這個一二三第四段齁這裡這樣子一一點名個案齁"},{"start":10408.137,"end":10423.905,"text":"然後說這個我是覺得是不是可以哪一個哪一個第4段復查從108年爆發大大大大大大大這些個案然後這些案子我是因為他這個我是覺得說我們在臨時提案裡面是不是不要"},{"start":10425.424,"end":10450.76,"text":"不要去指名哪一些個案我覺得比較好說偵查自108年起之案諸多重大案件以這樣子的方式來呈現你在這裡你把高鴻安的名字把什麼這些都寫上去我覺得都不厚道啦我們提案若不是必要的文字我是覺得希望能夠做修這一次我們把這個個案的名稱做一些比較這個這個"},{"start":10457.398,"end":10483.625,"text":"請問其他委員有沒有什麼意見我想主席 張偉也是檢察官出身的那我們覺得呢 最後的要求的做法我們是經過這樣的修改後是可以接受但是你在底下的三點 內容應併含第三 指定由天下第一檢美譽之臺灣臺北地方委員或什麼不管"},{"start":10484.847,"end":10504.865,"text":"其實我想這個主席江心比心這個其實所謂的美譽跟第一檢或直接指名哪一個檢察署其實我們可以說要求法務部就責定地方檢察署來落實這個案子"},{"start":10506.676,"end":10533.112,"text":"是不是這樣比較我們覺得比較可以因為法務部已經講過很多次了會這麼做但是沒有永遠都沒有成果出來那因為北檢目前是呃比較重大案子最多的地方所以我們才會希望說由北檢來去來去做這個示範的地檢署讓別的地檢署可以跟著跟著一起做這樣我了解好沒啦那個我還沒講完啦OK是"},{"start":10533.692,"end":10554.756,"text":"因為過去本席在關心那個保單解約常在的問題我們也知道北檢跟士林地檢他們都承受了相當大的案量那我是覺得考察到各地方法院我們都能夠體恤臺北地方委員跟士林地方法院民事執行處這樣的壓力我們去分散那如果用這個角度來考量"},{"start":10555.316,"end":10577.631,"text":"是否相對的士林地方檢查署是否會比北檢是更適切的一個地方我是參考啦因為說我們要考量到這些沒有錯這個提案人認為呢重中之重啊最多的媒體最集中的我們就先來做但是某個角度上來講要考量到如果有其他比較有能力落實具體做好"},{"start":10578.231,"end":10602.004,"text":"避免偵查不公開在媒體的新聞報導之下被破功的我們是不是有這個考量啦 建請我們提案人可以參佐因為我也是提案人 所以我跟各位委員報告一下因為對 剛剛那個鍾召偉有提到說北檢確實那個業務量非常重但是以我自己的檢查經驗能夠落實這樣子反而是降低檢察官的"},{"start":10602.964,"end":10619.702,"text":"工作量他不需要再去應付很多跑到辦公室的記者這個確實是可以讓工作單純那當然我就是以我自己的工作經驗我去做這樣的思考那目前北檢還是這個重大案件比較多的地方"},{"start":10622.045,"end":10626.349,"text":"我這樣建議啦這個結論我遵照大家的意思啦但是從第第4段復查從108年等等等等"},{"start":10639.92,"end":10659.787,"text":"這一段整段我建議把它給刪除掉然後呢並含第三個並有指定天下第一屆美譽的什麼什麼講這個我覺得這些都墜語了我之所以這樣講的原因第四段要刪掉的原因是我不只再一次在司法法制委員會來提出來"},{"start":10661.427,"end":10689.882,"text":"偵查不公開不是這幾年才發生的事我說從以前我就很對這個我就很感冒啦不管誰之政啦我覺得都不應該去違背啦因為啊第一個法有明文第二個是這一個你整個法務部你三聲五令要求大家偵查機關你掌握有更高的這樣的一個偵查的一個訊息啊你有這樣一個優越的一個地位啊不應該隨便去揭露"},{"start":10691.483,"end":10713.804,"text":"這個偵查主體裡面幾乎大家都是水有磚金的都是專業人士要比外界更知道這樣的一個分寸所以我針對的是說沒有必要去講到這幾年從108年這幾個我是覺得整段都劃掉這個是長期以來就存在這第一個請大家做一個參考第二個就是說"},{"start":10715.492,"end":10733.443,"text":"要指定台北地檢署就台北地檢署啦不要去什麼他是天下第一檢台北地檢署當然數值很高啊數值當然很高啊也很累啊沒有錯啊可是我們就直接立法院的文字裡面就直接去講說我們要的話就做成決議就台北地檢署當一個示範機關我沒意見但是整段還要刻意這個"},{"start":10735.425,"end":10751.744,"text":"這個現在這案子不是就是臺北地檢署在偵辦嗎?他又本身又是當事人啊那個跟莊委員報告我主要是看到因為這一次的那個王檢察長北檢的王檢察長他上任的時候他的宣誓裡面其中一個就是要落實偵查不公開我懂你的意思"},{"start":10755.808,"end":10778.565,"text":"我們要的都是看結果啦真的不公開我們都已經講了多少年了我今天早上我都很含蓄耶媽媽嘴那個當年你都是一個偵查的團隊我只是講結論而已你知道嗎我跟你講你們齁那個中委員其實你剛剛講那個我就想讓你講沒關係當年弄錯的警察官是別人我是進去救"},{"start":10779.406,"end":10781.708,"text":"我再跟你報告一下就是說為什麼我們會說北檢而不是要求全國就是因為我們認為說"},{"start":10798.625,"end":10825.159,"text":"我沒意見我的意思就是說我們立法院的文字不用刻意去講說指定由天下第一檢講這一些那搞不好是天下第二檢啊好沒問題沒問題搞不好私立地檢署認為他才是第一啊搞不好我們屏東地檢署說我才是天下第一檢啊對不對謝謝中委員這是檢察官內部的說法沒關係那我剛有聽到中委員的兩項建議跟那個省委員的其中一項是一樣好那還有那個省委員"},{"start":10826.769,"end":10853.07,"text":"好 那我簡單的意見 因為畢竟我不是本委所以我想說先留個記錄第一個就是我贊成剛剛莊委員講的其實在第4段這一些說這個是哪一些案件其實這個沒有什麼必要我覺得是可以拿掉 不然的話這個文燦這個案件說真的這個其實這個我看在座也有蠻多人發表過意見但第二個我要提到的就是因為偵查不公開 今年這一個還是去年的時候有幾位檢察官有寫過那個博士論文"},{"start":10854.031,"end":10878.559,"text":"那裡面常提到這個媒體之所以能夠取得資訊除了第三點這邊提到的就是媒體直接跟檢察官接觸之外有很多的情形都有透過中間人這個中間人千千百百種但法警其實也是其中一種所以如果說未來真的要針對這個做規範的話可能我覺得針對中間人做規範是還蠻重要的我小時候先留個記錄因為這個再加上去今天這個臨時提案應該就討論不完了"},{"start":10880.62,"end":10906.388,"text":"但第二個我覺得很重要的就是因為我看到之前這個文章案件在3個月以前的時候我記得這個趙偉也有這個吳宗憲趙偉也有在媒體上發言嘛對不對所以就是已經離開的人其實照理他也會在這一個的規範裡面所以呢如果是這個樣子的話呢這一些到底有誰可能未來需要做一個盤點給一個參考啦先這樣子謝謝我懂這個意思啦因為假不公開主要是起訴前啦"},{"start":10907.188,"end":10922.482,"text":"所以我說這部分我們可能到時候再精進一下看文字部分要怎麼去修正那這樣就是是不是我們因為時間的關係我們請法務部按照剛剛各位委員的建議然後提出一個修正的文字"},{"start":10923.776,"end":10943.948,"text":"就我們現在這個臨時提案部分,看要怎麼樣,那我們再跟這個助理那邊去做一下討論,然後提出一個…我想不用了,我們就是這邊就…就如果說我們…因為主席是提案人嘛,對,直接處理,我們就第4段把它整段刪掉,看你們覺得…大家覺得有沒有,或是要怎麼修改文字,直接處理4段整段刪掉是不是?對,就是…就是…不用提到個案不是吧"},{"start":10944.988,"end":10965.521,"text":"各案的部分我覺得這個沒問題就是說只要有各案的部分我覺得就是按照剛剛省委員的意見就是我們把它說因為有近年來有多件我這邊的話基本上我也這個因為幾位委員的建議就是認為說第4段就不要把這個具體各案"},{"start":10966.261,"end":10985.631,"text":"相列出來重點是在於說要建立示範區所以第4段就是復查從108年起有諸多重大案件軍不罰有諸多重大刑事案件軍不罰有媒體"},{"start":10987.392,"end":10991.717,"text":"最後建議的第三點大家認為說由天下第一檢美譽這幾個字寫不是很好其實他就是嘲諷的意味我是也可以同意把這幾個字刪掉"},{"start":11006.343,"end":11025.291,"text":"就直接指定臺灣臺北地檢署作為偵查不公開的示範機關好那是不是就依照各位委員的這個方式可以同意是是是我很少同意翁小林講的話今天完全同意我也很少同意你們說的但是我想我們的重點在於說要建立個示範機關好不好好那我們就依就是依剛剛各位委員的那個高見我們辦理好那我們就"},{"start":11041.587,"end":11044.389,"text":"麻煩就我們再宣告一次臨時提案一再修正本第4段修正為復查軍不乏有媒體復查近年諸多"},{"start":11062.489,"end":11083.348,"text":"近年諸多重大刑事案件均不乏有媒體依據知情人士透露報導搜索偵查細節甚或揭露手機對話內容更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關恆情若非傳遞訊息與媒體媒體應難以獲悉"},{"start":11087.639,"end":11106.768,"text":"再修並函的第三點指定臺灣臺北地方警察署作為貫徹偵查不公開制度知識犯機關其餘相同提案人委員吳宗憲、聯署人委員黃國昌、羅志強訓導完畢好謝謝那我們是不是就按照修正後的提案通過"},{"start":11107.793,"end":11118.315,"text":"好 謝謝各位那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員進行詢答那翁曉琳委員詢答完畢之後因為快12點我們就休息5分鐘然後再繼續進行詢答好 謝謝莊委那有請保務部部長麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":11138.621,"end":11159.958,"text":"市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩露"},{"start":11160.999,"end":11183.919,"text":"這個相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到"},{"start":11185.487,"end":11204.553,"text":"相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官"},{"start":11206.954,"end":11226.509,"text":"律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含警警調書機關他們的長官"},{"start":11228.935,"end":11248.961,"text":"以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定"},{"start":11251.099,"end":11269.42,"text":"並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎"},{"start":11271.199,"end":11295.733,"text":"這部分我們有一個制定一個我們有一個偵查不公開的一個實施的一個方案就是剪掉臉的遵守那個偵查不公開的一個那有包含這個所謂的中間人嗎他的上級長官然後層層的甚至這個傳遞文書的這個作業人員公務員有包含到你們的這個規範的範圍"},{"start":11299.697,"end":11303.241,"text":"有涵蓋到哪些類型?有包含他們的長官嗎?"},{"start":11322.575,"end":11351.667,"text":"這個是沒有包含長官是 所以這很重要這包含到他的上級的長官對不對其實很有可能這個洩露的不是這個基層的公務員而是他的這個上級的長官這不是不無可能我們再看一下下一頁就是我們知道這個你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分先前也有蠻多委員有提到就是我們自己看到你們的報告書裡面就知道"},{"start":11353.376,"end":11359.54,"text":"你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊"},{"start":11376.994,"end":11385.079,"text":"都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎"},{"start":11388.914,"end":11401.382,"text":"你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢?從這麼多歷史的案件看起來他就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊"},{"start":11410.367,"end":11411.207,"text":"我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的"},{"start":11428.396,"end":11447.886,"text":"但是也撥發的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不古可呢我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分"},{"start":11451.04,"end":11474.52,"text":"這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嘛這是一個柯本先生根本跟委員報告事實上會接觸這個很多包括其實媒體的關注一定是有羈押的案件是部長我知道因為你剛剛有說了我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的"},{"start":11475.2,"end":11501.344,"text":"相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法"},{"start":11502.04,"end":11527.677,"text":"還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在法院有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好"},{"start":11530.879,"end":11557.718,"text":"今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個"},{"start":11559.565,"end":11561.612,"text":"呃一個信賴大家都很清楚"},{"start":11563.045,"end":11584.351,"text":"對 那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在那些專業委員前面搬弄是非搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬禱鳴萃"},{"start":11590.441,"end":11619.147,"text":"然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討"},{"start":11621.311,"end":11635.86,"text":"然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法"},{"start":11637.592,"end":11658.568,"text":"雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊"},{"start":11661.465,"end":11684.09,"text":"你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面"},{"start":11688.536,"end":11708.332,"text":"所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容"},{"start":11709.313,"end":11721.585,"text":"是我過程泄密罪事實上這個有相關的法定也可以包括個人資料保護法等相關的可以追尋除了犯罪之外然後在律師法裡面的相關的懲戒然後這個行政處罰等等我覺得也都要整體一起來討論嘛對不對然後我們剛講的最重要的就是你偵查不公開規範他所能夠涵蓋的這個範圍對象這部分要明確"},{"start":11735.017,"end":11756.275,"text":"這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定"},{"start":11758.001,"end":11786.703,"text":"要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作為辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作為辦法可是你們偵查不公開作為辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是"},{"start":11788.224,"end":11804.154,"text":"有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實它有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經機閉已久"},{"start":11809.376,"end":11834.081,"text":"這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個如果違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊"},{"start":11840.277,"end":11851.024,"text":"這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎"},{"start":11852.114,"end":11866.386,"text":"跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是個第一位階的法規"},{"start":11876.203,"end":11878.824,"text":"我們就依據先前宣告休息五分鐘五分鐘後由林國成委員進行詢答 謝謝"},{"start":12212.817,"end":12242.265,"text":"我們現在開始開會我們現在先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止我們現在請林國成委員進行詢答好謝謝主席我們法務部政部長麻煩部長NCC我們主委翁代理主委"},{"start":12251.36,"end":12278.882,"text":"好我們政部長翁主委我想今天本席啊特別要來請教今天我看主席標這個議題啊就是偵查不公開最後看起來是偵查是大公開那在這裡我要請教當然偵查不公開本來就擁有之法律之規範那確實啊"},{"start":12282.191,"end":12309.991,"text":"過去你們也一直在遵守這些但是我要特別請教鄭部長從柯文哲案在這裡我要請教一個敏感的問題原來京華城的案子是調查局立案在辦但是傳言我們鄭部長下令要移給"},{"start":12312.342,"end":12331.074,"text":"連政署部長有沒有這回事跟委員報告這個沒有這回事那個調查局他那個立案他是最早的是由有人由民意代表來告發的來告發的那這部分是我相信鄭部長在司法界給人家感覺"},{"start":12341.992,"end":12368.433,"text":"確確實實也是為司法捍衛之一個漢子啦但是我沒有想到確確實實當了部長之後看起來似乎偵查不公開真的是偵查公開欸來 伯父還有我們王主委你看一下這個三立電視台他自爆喔剪掉的線已經養了7年"},{"start":12370.516,"end":12396.573,"text":"當然或許是這個記者啊至高提高身價但是部長確確實實他寫出來的還有進週刊寫出來的那個很奇怪啊你們都跟著他的腳步去走所以這個偵查不公開是真的是一個諷刺啊在一個老百姓來講"},{"start":12397.774,"end":12412.495,"text":"我們當民意代表的人必須要把下情上達讓翁主委、讓鄭部長你了解什麼叫做偵查不公開現在老百姓是不相信的耶不定"},{"start":12413.496,"end":12416.179,"text":"柯文哲的案子我們將心比心到底有沒有大公開"},{"start":12436.021,"end":12443.707,"text":"老百姓是認為真的是大公開的部長你撿到這個30秒給你你有什麼看法這個是外界對我們辦人團隊的一個誤解啦這個我再強調啦那這部分這個媒體的這個有北警有給他約談了"},{"start":12459.139,"end":12464.02,"text":"葉檀有什麼用?早上葉檀,下午說牽結。我告訴你啦,我們不要變啦。這個案件還沒結好。好好搬啦。有就有,沒有就沒有。司法本來就勿枉勿重,尤其檢察官,你是要在做偵查動作,其實在偵查,"},{"start":12482.324,"end":12510.079,"text":"本來就是要秘密去做事情去收集對方有利無利之證據而來做偵辦這是你們檢察官之責任啊我們主席過去他的做法不管是現在在立法院他還是這樣做啊所以在這裡我要拜託政部長不要因為柯文哲而就變了樣也不要因為柯文哲真的有犯罪事實你們就是"},{"start":12510.859,"end":12536.657,"text":"你們這是縱容我認為司法要公正所以我特別要提醒我們部長還有我們翁主委針對這個問題真的一定要讓老百姓覺得說我們針對偵查不公開是事實上我們是有在捍衛的這個我要勉勵政部長還有翁主委最後一個我要特別跟政部長"},{"start":12538.168,"end":12552.307,"text":"有一個外勞在去年11月份的時候被車子撞死他死狀很難看我接到這個陳情案子是因為泰國辦事處跟我陳情"},{"start":12553.248,"end":12570.509,"text":"所以我不得要跟鄭部長你來檢舉這個案子是在阻攬這個在阻攬是苗檢所辦結果這個人死了以後當事人也承認說他有撞到東西可是有撞到東西就有因果關聯"},{"start":12572.39,"end":12597.839,"text":"這個嫌疑犯他是喝酒超速可是這個外勞撞下去以後噴到對面的車道那這個對面的車道啊兩部車也把他撵過你說這個硬注意而未注意那這種東西不起訴還OK可是喝酒的人他自己承認喔已經撞到人可是他不曉得撞到什麼"},{"start":12598.459,"end":12617.246,"text":"是應該有英國關係的關聯最後部長我跟你承認我跟你投訴結果檢察官因為他是外勞因為他沒有利害關係人就把他牽結掉不起訴人白白的死掉部長"},{"start":12618.464,"end":12643.419,"text":"今天時間的關係我特別跟你剪輯這個案子部長要跪為過去司法界的深意你該查的一定要查所以沒有人說他是外勞就白白死掉我告訴你啦 部長這都對我們自己的良心欸 這是國際欸這些外勞也是人欸 也是生命欸怎麼就這樣牽結了呢"},{"start":12645.27,"end":12661.42,"text":"怎麼就這樣牽扯呢那現在他喝酒被警察撤出來欸他是有酒精的第二個自己也承認超速第三他也承認撞到東西撞到什麼他不曉得可是這個部分部長"},{"start":12662.361,"end":12684.956,"text":"我今天特別在議事殿堂跟你檢舉我看看你們辦不辦不要偵查不公開連這個也不公開那到最後我開國際記者會這個會一笑國氣啊部長我剛剛跟你檢舉這件案子我希望我希望你把它當成一回事把它查清楚勿妄勿縱"},{"start":12688.86,"end":12705.596,"text":"把事實真相把它查清楚對死者有一個交代不能因為他是移工他是外國人我們就不把司法的公件去把他捍衛部長我現在跟你剪輯這個案件我再送給你部長"},{"start":12706.775,"end":12716.583,"text":"你有什麼看法?那這邊相關的資料請委員提供我們再轉交給那個...不是轉交!我要你部長你要去注意這些事你是檢察官、你是檢察長出身的"},{"start":12718.248,"end":12736.982,"text":"所以我跟你講我不要你去干涉這些他有煙情你部長當然要站出來這是不保障你不可以再跟我搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞搞打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打打"},{"start":12748.311,"end":12753.495,"text":"王主委要記得NCC是獨立機關那我們下一位請林怡警委員進行詢問"},{"start":12782.607,"end":12792.008,"text":"謝謝主席 有請政部長跟調查局副局長好 麻煩政部長副局長委員好"},{"start":12792.541,"end":12817.342,"text":"部長好我想看了今天的題目本席一直關注一個新細已久的問題也就是同樣涉及公開不公開可是他卻從未曾公開也未曾讓世人知曉就是在法務部在促轉會解散後要承接的任務那就是要研擬這個修改促轉條例識別及處置威權統治系統加害者專章"},{"start":12819.502,"end":12834.937,"text":"已故的這個白色恐怖受難者蔡昆林爺爺他曾經很沉痛的向蔡英文總統追問說我想知道究竟是誰殺了我朋友那他的御友蔡秉紅因為這個綠島在叛亂案在蔣介石的指示之下批准槍決"},{"start":12840.663,"end":12859.855,"text":"那在這層層的這個黨國迫害的體制中我們至今沒有辦法辨認正中間到底有哪些加害者造就了這個加害體制那可是蔡昆林爺爺這句話凸顯了台灣在轉型正義的過程當中只看到受害者並未看到加害者"},{"start":12860.675,"end":12865.096,"text":"那我想法務部承接的促轉會這個承接的任務就是我們要來研擬修改這個促轉條例剛剛我提到的識別及處置威權統治時期加害者專章那我想要詢問這個任務我們促轉會解散兩年多了那現在聽說行政院研擬這個專章也已經開了30多次的會"},{"start":12884.8,"end":12905.598,"text":"目前得到的結論是核心爭議的問題並未有普遍的社會共識所以為了讓這個政策越周全、越妥適持續聆聽各界的意見我想請教部長是說在最新的一次行政院推動轉型爭議的預備會議當中我們有看見一絲的曙光就是說諮詢委員有要求法務部"},{"start":12911.022,"end":12924.988,"text":"在今年的第四季前要完成對外預告的這個布版的專章所以請教法務部目前到底我們的立法的這個進度到底怎麼樣能不能給這個社會上一個交代啊謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":12928.513,"end":12944.016,"text":"那這一部分我們也積極在進行法制的一個作業本部已經開了12次的一個會議配合行政院的修法那現在都在進行中法制作業進行中那這邊詳細的是不是我們用書面跟委員來做一個好"},{"start":12945.077,"end":12964.475,"text":"只要提醒因為已經要接近年底了然後因為諮詢委員有要求說在這個第四季前你們要提出布版的專章喔所以我想這個時間嘛逼近所以我想期待加快腳步那你再書面來回答我那我想這個就是說再跟大家強調一下因為這個"},{"start":12966.857,"end":12986.477,"text":"我剛提到這個白色恐怖政治受難者蔡寬玉爺爺也好或者這個顏世鴻也好他們都已經過世了那我們如果說我們加快腳步的話那我們真的不知道這些政治受難者特別在這些高齡的爺爺奶奶們他何時可以得知真相"},{"start":12987.558,"end":13006.802,"text":"那另外我想就一點點時間來請教一下那個調查局喔我想關心轉型正義的這個議題的朋友他們都非常關注現在政府內部教育的問題那我想調查局曾經邀請白色恐怖時期的這個受難者政治受難者"},{"start":13007.242,"end":13007.282,"text":"請教局長："},{"start":13029.855,"end":13039.891,"text":"就白色恐怖的歷史教育的部分那你們有沒有整個調查局內部進到正確且明白的歷史教育的責任副局長"},{"start":13041.571,"end":13065.496,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想我們調查局以我來說我後年初我就退休了像我這樣的年紀我在調查局我開始分發到外勤工作的時候就是解嚴以後的事情了所以就是因為解嚴以後我們所有的相關過去的法令過去白痴恐怖的這個時代的相關的這些狀況我們新進的調查的同仁我們完全沒有過去的"},{"start":13066.056,"end":13066.176,"text":"主席"},{"start":13092.213,"end":13114.165,"text":"當然期待是最好是如此可是後來講回來是這個有些是所謂的調查局這個所謂的這個這個歷史上的那個傳統的觀念也好我還是剛剛有提到調查局在過去白色恐怖時代確實是有代表一定不可忽略的地位某個程度也是一個加害者"},{"start":13114.565,"end":13120.527,"text":"當然這些都需要來誠實的面對這個歷史所以我想也因為這個地位的特殊所以我想內部當然您剛講我們有一個正確的這個史觀正確的觀念來從事這個調查工作當然最好可是我覺得內部這個教育有正確的史觀的教育這還是很重要所以還是要拜託這個局長就是說正確的史觀的教育要持續持續來完成而且要廣泛"},{"start":13144.036,"end":13145.177,"text":"陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員"},{"start":13162.582,"end":13175.688,"text":"黃鴻薇委員黃鴻薇委員黃鴻薇委員黃孟楷委員黃孟楷委員黃孟楷委員好 那我們請我志強委員代理主席好 請吳宗憲委員詢答"},{"start":13189.845,"end":13208.532,"text":"我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長好 有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長 我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分"},{"start":13209.465,"end":13224.607,"text":"那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛"},{"start":13225.287,"end":13254.049,"text":"那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛"},{"start":13255.485,"end":13277.127,"text":"那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦"},{"start":13278.195,"end":13297.372,"text":"連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的鄭文燦的案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情鄭文燦的案子我從辦"},{"start":13298.553,"end":13314.824,"text":"到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的"},{"start":13316.34,"end":13341.373,"text":"好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一律不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼"},{"start":13342.56,"end":13361.362,"text":"我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的東西我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問"},{"start":13363.112,"end":13390.222,"text":"問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講部長啊你就跟吳思耀委員吳思耀委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子"},{"start":13391.175,"end":13414.028,"text":"那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說"},{"start":13415.731,"end":13433.977,"text":"你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說"},{"start":13435.197,"end":13459.188,"text":"我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他手上伸去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員"},{"start":13464.054,"end":13482.4,"text":"說了這個東西部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們一起主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去去洩漏的因為"},{"start":13485.107,"end":13507.714,"text":"這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講那你不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去了我認為這邊而且講出是不是真的真的我也不清楚部長我也不清楚我認同你講但你沒回答我的問題啊因為你說那我不是部長我部長我問"},{"start":13508.934,"end":13522.913,"text":"你剛回答的我認同但是我沒有你沒有回答到我問題確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣我絕對支持這句話畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來"},{"start":13524.415,"end":13552.411,"text":"所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊"},{"start":13554.158,"end":13580.074,"text":"然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關這"},{"start":13582.684,"end":13600.642,"text":"亂講一通人一大堆所以我要跟你講我自己以前在當我自己以前在在學醫思考官的時候我常跟他們講我以前8N的時候一件事情我開庭問完被告然後我也對他很客氣然後問完之後我讓被告回去了因為我覺得那案子他根本沒有關係是亂告然後"},{"start":13603.229,"end":13623.604,"text":"我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他"},{"start":13624.835,"end":13653.643,"text":"所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體"},{"start":13654.997,"end":13680.969,"text":"這我覺得很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛"},{"start":13683.08,"end":13690.321,"text":"委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在"},{"start":13711.135,"end":13713.856,"text":"你真的覺得被告會把對自己不利的訊息告訴媒體讓媒體報來嗎?這符合人性嗎?剛剛那個"},{"start":13737.429,"end":13751.467,"text":"羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎"},{"start":13752.828,"end":13780.667,"text":"這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人們就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看"},{"start":13781.709,"end":13788.149,"text":"檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說"},{"start":13789.332,"end":13814.319,"text":"媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西"},{"start":13816.328,"end":13833.259,"text":"那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我凹說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以"},{"start":13839.476,"end":13862.672,"text":"講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼"},{"start":13864.401,"end":13891.284,"text":"請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長"},{"start":13892.585,"end":13892.745,"text":"我...我...我..."},{"start":13920.089,"end":13948.035,"text":"我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊"},{"start":13949.212,"end":13949.492,"text":"那個PVT跳一下"},{"start":13974.164,"end":13979.456,"text":"人家直接點名欸 這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面檢察官點名的記者名字欸"},{"start":13980.851,"end":14003.263,"text":"那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事這個有關心的這些所有的報導的這些有都約談嗎我不是說這記者的問題至少有進行檢查官提了那是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談喔有澄清喔那案件還在偵辦中喔所以為什麼對那個我跟你講齁就是"},{"start":14007.885,"end":14021.716,"text":"就我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的甲長這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為"},{"start":14024.946,"end":14045.624,"text":"因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手"},{"start":14047.566,"end":14064.053,"text":"那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或白營的綠營操作成"},{"start":14068.155,"end":14080.882,"text":"賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的檢察官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者"},{"start":14081.761,"end":14108.792,"text":"所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14110.578,"end":14135.464,"text":"那前幾天有一個說謝果良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯錯我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力"},{"start":14137.523,"end":14164.995,"text":"我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開"},{"start":14166.295,"end":14186.505,"text":"跟委員報告原則上我們是立定有偵查就是刑事單位他有遵刑事我們希望立定是要到遵刑事裡面去的那遵刑事裡面才有完整的錄音錄影設備所以原則上我們就刑事單位是要到遵刑事裡面去那至於派出所"},{"start":14187.205,"end":14205.202,"text":"我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那攀手就不一定有大的攀手有小的攀手沒有所以針對攀手的環境我們就特別立定攀手在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們攀手裡面去"},{"start":14206.242,"end":14234.599,"text":"好 謝謝部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵查人的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體"},{"start":14235.589,"end":14255.1,"text":"好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長然後部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長"},{"start":14266.949,"end":14280.594,"text":"下一位我們請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員現在我們請張其開委員發言"},{"start":14300.627,"end":14320.304,"text":"請保定部長委員好保定你好你剛才說你相信你的檢察官你應該也常常上去看剛剛中線給你們提出來的檢察官論壇大家看一下這個畫面"},{"start":14322.453,"end":14343.929,"text":"這個作者叫做一審的這個檢察官他說他事實上是在對你喊話也是對北檢的北檢這些同仁在喊話他說你們對於現今檢媒一體的亂象這不是只有偵查部公開而已他用一個非常非常重的字眼叫做檢察官跟媒體現在是一體"},{"start":14345.222,"end":14367.159,"text":"媒體、媒體跟檢方變成一體這個亂象你們到現在都沒有積極作為讓檢察官已經失去了人民的信任把檢察官的名氣踩在地上這會使得你們會變成檢方的罪人所以保證 基隆民你說你相信你的檢察官你要去看他們的心聲在你的可以把柯文哲的名字蓋起來"},{"start":14370.134,"end":14387.423,"text":"現在不是在幫柯文哲講話的問題我們在幫台灣的法治幫所有的檢察官檢察官領的是人民的納稅錢 對不對是國家名器啊本來台灣司法是很受敬重的可是你看這次整個偵查不公開這幾年搞成這樣子你不會截然過嗎這個我認為"},{"start":14393.935,"end":14410.424,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導啦齁那這個這個這個檢查論壇齁我相信當然是這次檢查有檢查有這樣的意見那個我們這個檢查論壇就是給大家一個發出意見的一個一個一個平台嘛齁那我也不曉得是不是"},{"start":14411.424,"end":14436.223,"text":"臺北地檢的檢察官這個我也不清楚那我想整個一個偵查部官我想我們都會全力我像我在處理媒體我從來不給獨家我們都是直接發言落實發言的政策對阿你叫他北檢給你學阿北檢你看他背過三十到現在你看他已經每天一個版本這個我們不給這些尤其檯面下次給我我們是完全的一些的這個是"},{"start":14437.404,"end":14454.309,"text":"禁止的這種現在人民但是因為這個實在是因為新聞實在是太社會太矚目了媒體在在在就在無所不用其極嘛無所不用其極那他消息怎麼來的啊消息是不是正確我說實在我不知道"},{"start":14455.117,"end":14474.692,"text":"伯定伯定伯定你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗喔啟示書到時候出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的我跟你講全民都盯著看啦啟示書裡面如果內容是這個媒體先出來那不是北檢從哪邊來內容如果說相互的我們不能夠直接就認定就是因為有通靈啊或作夢啊要不然不是北檢是誰"},{"start":14476.417,"end":14502.267,"text":"所以我這次的資料實在是太多了所以為什麼那麼多接觸為什麼一口就咬定就是檢察官或班人來來來看另外一位檢察官的啦事實上你如果去你的檢察官論壇看現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多我覺得我們對你們是有希望的要去多看反省的力量你看這個檢察官他怎麼說你剛剛提說你們是有約談的對不對然後你還澄清了叫這個檢察官在這說"},{"start":14505.106,"end":14525.028,"text":"那一篇你們這個自親文叫什麼北檢治島的大爛劇你們檢察官自己都這樣講啦他直接講說你如果偵查不公開你現在已經沒辦法實現了嘛那乾脆廢掉然後請法務部跟學院開一個叫做如何要如何學會被媒體經營你看多諷刺你自己檢查官就這樣講啊"},{"start":14528.052,"end":14537.317,"text":"那是因為三立的記者直接講阿他說經營你們北檢你們檢調經營7年阿那你沒有更正這個我們有約談喔跟委員報告這個有約談喔這個我們了解這個齁這個這個某姓的記者的記者馬姓的記者這個不是跑司法記者的齁我們不曉得他這個怎麼從何而來我們不曉得你亂講對不對"},{"start":14553.407,"end":14560.229,"text":"他這部分在北檢有約談過了對,他亂講嗎?亂講你們沒有一個責任這個有澄清喔,這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個粗暴訊息你澄清後沒問題嗎?人家這樣給你獻醉不只是一個檢察官耶你的北檢被人家打這有澄清什麼?不是我說不對,你這個有這樣嗎?"},{"start":14574.532,"end":14601.721,"text":"這個有澄清是否透明之干你這樣澄清就好了我意思就是說你自己的部署被北檢這樣被人家煽脆配大家動作笑話你就是這樣一個然後你的檢察官還講說你根本就是一個北檢的制導的大爛劇我們是司法院委員委員會NG偵查不公平作為辦法第8條第1項第7款的做適度的一個澄清嘛因為既然社會有這樣的一個捕風捉影的一種所以我們有分擔來做一個處理嘛"},{"start":14603.562,"end":14623.567,"text":"我認為你還有機會去補這個破網阿你不補的話就是剛剛鐘憲講的沒有錯整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉嘛我們也不希望看到這樣子喔我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水行國家的公器他是好的我們台灣才有未來嘛是不是這樣所以我們是對你有希望所以我做兩個建議第一個你剛才講你約了媒體來"},{"start":14627.629,"end":14636.526,"text":"剛剛民進黨立委都問你嘛你約了記者去他到底要不要講你剛剛那個答覆是有問題的啊你把他約來他到底是證人還是被告"},{"start":14638.557,"end":14661.819,"text":"是證人還被告?你約這個記者來,是證人還被告?證人阿證人,證人是不是有作證的義務?阿他來啦,他有到我房啦那他有跟你講,他的消息來源嗎?他有如實跟你講嗎?還是你自己找就打起來?這個就我想檢察官有他的偵查的一個手段跟心證吧,我也沒辦法去過問說你到底講什麼,我又不能去過問"},{"start":14662.964,"end":14670.645,"text":"你會不會變成那個基層檢察官,變成個歷史罪人,你形象不錯的,你的形象是不錯的,你要去挽救你的,你這樣會影響到,對不對,要幫你檢查,要做事情,來,我做個具體建議,我看沒你的預算書裡面,檢察司啊,變那個醫生啊,一個檢察司不用了,要一千多萬對不對"},{"start":14692.455,"end":14702.417,"text":"檢察室的副市長有時間嗎來來來變成一千塊錢嘛對不對你第一個項目就是教育訓練費啊我一定會叫市長好好討論一下"},{"start":14704.98,"end":14710.203,"text":"有在受訓?有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":14723.496,"end":14742.881,"text":"有看到成果嗎?你把那個做出來的東西一個禮拜給我好不好?然後第二個我很具體的要求,我講起來,現在只有兩條路嘛你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查前途路,前途路這筆預算就砍掉嘛你檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己,有負人民的請託啊"},{"start":14745.034,"end":14769.283,"text":"這個費用就是要刪嘛這是一條路嘛第一個是把它做好嘛所以第一個你在一個禮拜內把你們做的怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情具體的你們的改善計畫或者已經有的給我好不好那第二個更重要喔要提出來提出來以後要怎麼去你們甚至要去辦幾堂這個公聽會或者座談會找專家學者來啊找你們一些形象好一點的啊跟這些北檢的檢察官講啊"},{"start":14770.407,"end":14771.748,"text":"主委好主委其實人民不是只有對檢察官"},{"start":14797.985,"end":14819.676,"text":"對NCC也有很高的期待NCC只要把那個公平做出來就好了嘛你看柯文哲這個事件甚至不要講柯文哲你往前推還有很多的司法案件媒體每天一個劇本後來很多都印證都錯的你現在手上很多檢舉案對不對媒體那個亂象那個檢舉案你會處理嗎都在處理當中所以沒有這個案子現在是有已經有結案的嗎"},{"start":14825.424,"end":14849.945,"text":"現在目前的話,因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件你現在將心比心,如果你是被影射、被作文章那個人,你會怎麼想?我沒有,我要求兩個,很簡單的第一個,速度加快,好不好?第一個,你的標準要是一致的你當初怎麼處罰中天的?中天有任何一個新聞有問題你就開始處罰嘛,罰則嘛對不對?後來就把台就關掉了嘛"},{"start":14850.578,"end":14852.281,"text":"市長我們都是依照換照辦法規定來處理啊"},{"start":14862.87,"end":14864.43,"text":"你現在你一個禮拜的送來現在到底有多少檢舉案你的進度是怎麼樣子"},{"start":14892.639,"end":14909.11,"text":"然後具體要求你速度要加快第二個更重要的人民現在都在我剛講過人民很簡單啊人民台灣人民的水準這麼高啊包括部長法務部有沒有好好做事情NCC有沒有做事情人民心中有一把尺啦你們本來形象都不錯的"},{"start":14910.686,"end":14910.806,"text":"阿部長這樣齁"},{"start":14938.231,"end":14965.769,"text":"因為今天部長跟在座的都是偵辦案件的人嘛都是等於是執行法律的那我們不能說自己偵辦案件的人卻自己帶頭犯罪因為偵查不公開這是一個犯違反的話是一個犯罪所以部長這部分可能就要請你們注意說不能說講自己在維護正義然後自己卻其實在傷害正義因為我請教部長一個很簡單的問題就是說教唆他人犯罪是不是成立教唆犯對吧"},{"start":14966.837,"end":14993.126,"text":"部長這你應該懂嘛那如果跟犯罪之人有犯意聯絡或行為分攤是不是成立共同正犯前面教唆犯會成立共犯關係但是後面如果犯意聯絡跟行為分攤會成為共同正犯關係我想這應該沒有問題所以如果在偵查不公開是規範的是公務員講這句話沒有錯可是當非公務員跟公務員共犯一個案子的時候"},{"start":14994.503,"end":15023.452,"text":"這位非公務員會成立犯罪所以我跟部長提醒我們國家的法律有這樣的規定所以不要認為說這個東西只是很多人在外面傳說這個東西只是處罰公務員不處罰非公務員所以我怎麼做都沒關係但事實上不要忘記了這國家的我國的刑法還有規定共同證犯跟共犯這兩種東西所以你只要跟公務員共同證犯或共犯犯罪的話本身也是成立犯罪我想我這話"},{"start":15024.741,"end":15053.502,"text":"就是跟部長建議我還是有這樣的規定好不好部長你可能今天我們的質詢可能讓部長不是很開心啦但我想我們盡到我們的義務我們必須把這東西點出來好 謝謝部長現在我們請廖偉湘廖偉湘廖偉湘蘇清泉蘇清泉陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷"},{"start":15054.522,"end":15057.886,"text":"鄭振淺 高津樹梅 林思敏 林淑芬"},{"start":15073.899,"end":15089.956,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢問大家結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料會議書面答覆請相關資料請述交給各個個別委員基本會那委員林思明、陳冠廷"},{"start":15090.777,"end":15113.079,"text":"所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報．並請相關機關以書面答覆另外,列席本次會議的全國律師聯合會律師禮期有提出書面也一併列入公報的紀錄本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}