{"error":false,"id":["161998"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":161998,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161998","日期":"2025-05-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-19-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-28T11:27:25+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-28T11:35:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f2424c472fc75b1d6db1b5ee1b3bf308d2e87f2bf784d93fc30da25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:27:25 - 11:35:37","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.66721875,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.164718750000002,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.796593750000003,"end":27.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.96846875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.65971875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.95909375,"end":41.931593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.66346875,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.367843750000002,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.134093750000005,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.142218750000005,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.17596875,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.554718750000006,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.84909375,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.78534375,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.37096875,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.87721875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.91096875000001,"end":69.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.10909375,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.14284375,"end":87.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.17159375,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.20534375,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.85346875,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.15221875,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.16909375,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.54846875000001,"end":90.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.13909375,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.45096875,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.55659375,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.63971875000001,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.67221875,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.94221875,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.57471875000002,"end":139.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.35721875000002,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.40784375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.55971875,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.44971875000002,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.56346875,"end":157.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.13284375,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.63034375,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.12346875,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.34534375,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.21346875,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.47034375,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.54159375,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.88596875000002,"end":209.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.67346875,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.09096875,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.35034375,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.00659375,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.90096875,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.03596875000002,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.09471875000003,"end":240.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.17909375000002,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.51596875,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.71846875000003,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.31284375,"end":272.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.16471875000002,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":251.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.93534375,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.87034375,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.47221875,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.41284375000004,"end":283.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.27284375,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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剛剛那個邱志偉委員在提到說我們駐日的單位當中已經增加了農業族那主要是針對這個台灣跟日本之間漁業往來的部分他說人家石斑一讓我們過去那里當我們一讓他什麼什麼過來其實有一個考量就是我們之前目前一直在討論的就是那個河豚的問題就我知道應該略有進展嘛那目前的進度怎麼樣有沒有可能今年開放"},{"start":42.442,"end":43.463,"text":"順利的話今年有沒有可能"},{"start":62.138,"end":85.448,"text":"這個部分要請教食藥署我們這邊沒有辦法幫食藥署做這也要關心一下關於這個部分我跟委員講河豚的部分其實我認為它只要是安全的就應該可以進來當然是安全那相對的就是說我們在雙邊在談的時候也希望說我們開了河豚以後也希望說它能夠更積極的有一些我們有在面對外銷的這個部分我們就側面了解應該今年底是有機會啦是有力啦好不好我知道這個我了解"},{"start":91.671,"end":114.796,"text":"這樣也可以化解剛剛邱委員的疑慮那另外回到今天的主題我其實非常感謝我們經紀委會許許多多的同仁對於這一個本席的提案的予以贊同那我提案內容其實跟昭緯的內容是相似的那就內容的本身來說的話我必須提到這時候提這個案子的原因是因為我們歷經了四年我們覆蓋率其實都是在30%以下來進行排回"},{"start":117.117,"end":137.652,"text":"那就制度已經到了一個天花板一個瓶頸的情況之下我們應該思考如果把這個覆蓋率能夠打開所以本期的體驗用意是在這邊也因此希望說農民在繳納這個以基本工資來計算的話繳納2859的時候相對政府提撥能不能提到1.5倍剛剛提到預算不過是增加15.5億而已"},{"start":140.034,"end":154.523,"text":"那這個強化這個安全跟韌性的部分這個是重要你看到覆蓋率的部分覆蓋率是總人口數的總投保人數的部分也不過是28.7另外一個數字從青龍的部分本來我們是照顧未來的青龍希望從業人口增加"},{"start":155.484,"end":174.624,"text":"更低耶只有25%耶老實講我也是很訝異啦所以訝異的情況底下當然我們提出來的時候那個貴部有提出一些回應你說其實換算於勞保的時候到時候幾副金額是相差無幾從社會保險的角度來看是這樣子可是我要跟那個主委說明喔"},{"start":175.445,"end":195.183,"text":"就這個部分裡頭我們在這個投保年資的部分有將近9成都是在一個基本上都不可能用投保30年來計算的它可能中間在進來對中間進來或年齡其實根本不到嘛所以你用30的做一個計算跟比對其實就有它的問題點的存在"},{"start":196.904,"end":223.421,"text":"最高金額夯不啷噹也不過是一萬塊錢而已一萬塊錢而已一點然後你去看那個金額喔所有來投保有一個現象我只要投保了我就繳納10%有沒有都是最高的唯一對最高的對不對這個高達這個九成以上那也就是說經濟誘因是最關鍵的嘛經濟誘因最關鍵當中不外乎是兩種嘛一種就是我付出的比較少我拿到比較多嘛"},{"start":224.562,"end":236.656,"text":"這是最關鍵的啊所以說是不是制度上有可能朝向這種方向來進行本席的提案其實也不過是我繳納的金額跟政府提撥的金額的倍數比能夠增加"},{"start":237.947,"end":249.083,"text":"那這個方向有沒有可能部長我想第一個我絕對沒有否定說委員的提案不好我說委員的提案就是我用100塊農民繳100塊我們繳150我們提報150嘛對對這個最後整體的退休會比較多一點這是一個方案"},{"start":255.091,"end":276.86,"text":"那另外我們有想到就是如果同樣是一百的話他只要繳八十類似八十我們繳一百二那這樣的話也是減輕農民的負擔嘛這也是啊也許兩個案可以同時設計不一定說一定不是委員的版本就是我們的版本財政部長你這種說法是有創意的啦其實基本上你只要把那個"},{"start":278.862,"end":294.703,"text":"那個這個繳納方跟提撥方的這個比例來做調整往多的方式上來做調整基本上我是覺得這一個覆蓋率的提升的可能性會就會增加是 所以我們會會去再更精準的試算而且我們也安排了跟院長做報告那你大概什麼時候會送院"},{"start":295.643,"end":324.343,"text":"我想齁我們送院之前我們現在已經安排跟院長做專案報告對那就是你是說下禮拜嗎最近最近喔最近喔我私下的報告然後院會大概預計什麼時候會送然後跟他報告如果說出門上如果說院長同意這個方向的話我們就會把完整的方案報院報院大概什麼時候啊這個下個六月可不可以不是這個就是看院長聽取了以後的一個決定院長如果沒有意見應該六月就可以到行政院會了嗎報了以後就會"},{"start":325.243,"end":339.746,"text":"各個單位然後下個會議就會送進來我希望六月啦好不好以六月為目標啦最後一個問題要問您的這我之前一直關心台南的牛肉湯的問題它受到飼養成本增加你看到那個近五年的肉牛的飼養的場數從778場降為628場那飼養的這個數量從34000變成30000"},{"start":347.868,"end":371.568,"text":"變成三萬喔那這減少就是這主要原因當然是這一個關稅的問題吧紐西蘭部分還有未來美國如果牛乳開放的話同樣會遭到這種排擠那我們換算了一下呢現在的乳牛的這個飼養量有一部分的肉源是來自於乳牛淘汰的乳牛四千淘汰四千兩百頭去年啊今年預計只剩下三千七啊"},{"start":372.248,"end":400.602,"text":"也就是說肉牛整體的部分減少然後淘汰跟著減少那未來可能還會再減少但是對肉的需求卻不斷的增加卻不斷的增加那以至於現在的這個成本價已經逐漸攀升從150已經變成190畢竟200大關那這種庶民美食如果一旦變成一個鄉親美食的話都會影響到整個城市的發展跟那個遊客的來"},{"start":402.083,"end":431.483,"text":"萊克素啊部長我已經問了第三次了啦有沒有什麼好方法我跟委員做一個報告以現在的雖然說我們去年有一些淘汰寡產牛可是現在每一個月的進到屠宰場的數量是還算穩定啦還算穩定但是長久來看的話我們希望把乳牛的量控制在大概12萬頭左右然後整個的牛奶是控制在43萬噸左右在這個目標之下"},{"start":432.244,"end":450.944,"text":"牛的部分可能降到某個程度不會再往下降所以我們希望說在這個部分問題是一直在降現在是現實上相關的數字都在降價格一直在攀升但是屠宰場每一天屠宰的量並沒有太多的變化"},{"start":452.529,"end":478.808,"text":"所以這個部分我們也會跟消費地做溝通你把最近你的調查報告給本席一份給本席一份好不好那你的趨勢發展也看一下 那整個牛肉的價格也不斷攀升 請你注意一下市場中端市場的價格已經往上攀升了啦從以前100變120 150都有了事實上我就在做一般的市場了不用其實特意做民調 平常我們就生活在那個城市當中 我們大家也很清楚啊"},{"start":479.469,"end":486.122,"text":"價格是上升但是投採量是穩定的部長早時間下來吃牛肉湯了我請你啦你就知道了啦好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時27分）主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，剛剛邱志偉委員提到駐日單位中已經增加了農業組嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員國文：主要是針對臺灣跟日本之間漁業往來的部分，他說人家讓我們的石斑魚過去，那我們也理當讓他們的某某產品過來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：其實有一個考量啦！我們之間目前一直在討論的就是河豚問題，據我知道應該略有進展，那麼目前進度怎麼樣？有沒有可能今年開放？"],["陳副署長建佑：報告委員，河豚部分整體主要是由衛福部食藥署洽談，站在漁業署的立場，則是針對跟我們這邊是否符合對等性的問題，基本上，現在主要還是由食藥署處理。"],["郭委員國文：順利的話，今年有沒有可能啊？"],["陳副署長建佑：這部分要請教食藥署，我們沒辦法幫食藥署說明。"],["郭委員國文：你們要關心一下啊！要掌握進度。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我跟委員講，河豚的部分，其實我認為只要牠是安全的，就應該可以進來。"],["郭委員國文：當然是安全的。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的就是雙邊在談的時候，我們也希望開放河豚以後，對方能夠更積極地讓我們把一些品項外銷過去……"],["郭委員國文：對嘛！就像石斑可以銷過去一樣，是互惠嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定努力啦！"],["郭委員國文：根據我的側面了解，應該今年底有機會啦！其實部長很努力啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，這我了解。"],["郭委員國文：這樣也可以化解邱委員剛剛的疑慮啦！","另外回到今天的主題，我非常感謝經濟委員會許許多多同仁對於本席提案予以贊同，我的提案內容其實跟召委的內容是相似的。就內容本身來說，我必須提到提這個案子的原因。歷經了4年，我們的覆蓋率其實都在30%以下徘徊，在制度已經到達天花板、瓶頸的情況下，我們應該思考如何把覆蓋率打開，所以本席提案的用意在這邊。我也希望在農民以基本工資計算繳納2,859元的時候，政府提撥也能相對提高到1.5倍，剛剛已經提到，預算不過是增加15.5億元而已嘛！而強化安全跟韌性這個部分是重要的，你看覆蓋率部分，覆蓋率占總投保人數的比例也不過28.7%。另外還有一個數字，就是青農部分，我們本來就要照顧未來的青農，希望從業人口增加，但是更低欸！只有25%欸！老實講，我也很訝異啊！當然貴部有提出一些回應，你們說其實換算於勞保，到時候給付金額相差無幾，從社會保險的角度來看是這樣，可是我要跟部長說明，在投保年資部分，將近九成基本上都不可能用投保30年來計算的……"],["陳部長駿季：可能中途才加進來。"],["郭委員國文：對，可能中間才進來或者是年齡根本不到，所以用30年來計算跟比對其實就有問題點存在，最高金額夯不啷噹也不過1萬塊錢而已。再看金額，所有投保人都有一個現象：只要投保了就繳納10%，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：都以繳最高的為主。"],["郭委員國文：都是最高的對不對？高達九成以上，也就是說經濟誘因是最關鍵的嘛！而經濟誘因不外乎兩種，其中一種就是付出的比較少，拿到的比較多，這是最關鍵的啊！所以制度上是不是有可能朝向這種方向進行？本席的提案其實也不過就是繳納金額跟政府提撥金額的倍數比能夠增加，這個方向有沒有可能，部長？"],["陳部長駿季：第一，我絕對沒有否定、說委員的提案不好。委員的提案就是農民繳100元，我們提撥150元嘛！最後整體退休金會比較多一點，這是一種方案。另外，我們也想到，如果同樣是100元的話，農民只要繳80元，我們繳120元，這樣的話也是減輕農民的負擔嘛！"],["郭委員國文：這也是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：也許兩個方案可以同時設計，未必不是委員的版本就是我們的版本。"],["郭委員國文：我不否認部長這種說法是有創意的啦！基本上，只要把繳納方跟提撥方的比例加以調整，而且往多的方向調整，我覺得覆蓋率提升的可能性就會增加啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是，所以我們會更精準地試算，而且也安排了向院長報告。"],["郭委員國文：大概什麼時候會送院？"],["陳部長駿季：在送院之前，我們現在已經安排向院長做專案報告。"],["郭委員國文：你是說下禮拜嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：最近。"],["郭委員國文：最近喔？"],["陳部長駿季：最近就會報告。"],["郭委員國文：然後預計什麼時候送院會？"],["陳部長駿季：跟院長報告後，如果院長同意這個方向，我們就會將完整方案報院。"],["郭委員國文：報院大概是什麼時候啊？6月可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：這就看院長聽取以後的決定。"],["郭委員國文：院長如果沒有意見，應該6月就可以送到行政院會了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：行政院會通過以後會送到各單位，下個會期就會送進來。"],["郭委員國文：好，我希望是6月啦！好不好？以6月為目標啦！","最後一個問題要問您，我之前一直關心臺南牛肉湯的問題，主要是受到飼養成本增加影響，近五年肉牛飼養的廠數從778廠降為628廠，飼養數量從三萬四變成三萬，減少的主要原因當然是關稅問題，除了紐西蘭的部分，未來美國牛乳如果開放，同樣會造成這種排擠現象。我們換算了一下現在的乳牛飼養量，因為有一部分肉源也來自淘汰的乳牛，去年淘汰4,200頭，今年預計只剩下3,700頭，也就是說整體肉牛減少，乳牛淘汰量又跟著減少，未來可能還會再減少，對於肉的需求卻不斷增加，以至於現在的成本價逐漸攀升，已經從150元變成190元了，逼近200大關啊！這種庶民美食一旦變成鑲金美食的話，會影響整個城市的發展跟遊客的來客數啊！部長，我已經問了第三次，有沒有什麼好方法？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，雖然去年淘汰一些寡產牛，可是現在每個月進到屠宰場的數量還算穩定啦！長久來看的話，我們希望把乳牛的量控制在12萬頭左右，整體牛奶控制在43萬噸左右，在這個目標之下，牛隻數量降到某個程度之後可能不會再往下降。我們希望這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：問題就是一直在降！現實上的相關數字都在降，而價格一直攀升。"],["陳部長駿季：但是屠宰場每一天屠宰的量並沒有太多變化，所以這部份我們也會跟消費地溝通。"],["郭委員國文：你們把最近的調查報告提供給本席一份，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["郭委員國文：我也看一下趨勢發展的方向，整個牛肉價格不斷攀升，請你注意一下，事實上，終端市場的價格已經往上攀升了啦！從以前的100元變成120元，連150元的也都有了。事實上，就看一般市場，不必刻意做民調，因為我們平常就生活在那個城市中，當然清楚啊！"],["陳部長駿季：價格上升，但是屠宰量是穩定的，這個問題我們會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：好啦！部長找時間下來吃牛肉湯，我請你啦！你就知道了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}