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已經連席會議審查過了提案要職賴士葆跟副委員也都有說了大家看一下書面的資料上面有我們就不再贅述那我們來看這個"},{"start":2152.447,"end":2179.057,"text":"那時候我們也是理事長也有回應這個委員的提案這個資料也有那最後有關賴士葆結論我們財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆本人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定名為中央立法之地方稅及副公務員提案將地方稅擬定為中央立法所定的地方稅並增訂同條第三項這個"},{"start":2182.526,"end":2206.442,"text":"定明地方政府開徵這特別的稅科臨時稅科及附加稅科不適用第一項徵收率條高30%限制與第四條原立法一直相符這是財政部的看法所以尊重委員會的審議結果那之前我們已經聽取說明我們委員會已經聽取說明、詢答還有經過大體討論那基因討論後已經有達成共識全案審查完畢"},{"start":2212.466,"end":2236.802,"text":"審查結果是全案保留我們送院會處理這個是上一次開會的這個決議所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報院會然後院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商這就是我們今天進行協商的目的然後討論本案時羅昭吉文他會補充說明我今天來補充說明"},{"start":2238.257,"end":2238.277,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":2254.562,"end":2276.588,"text":"謝謝主席因為就是有意見才會保留到政黨來進行協商雖然字眼上增加不多賴版跟副版其實條文上還只有一兩次的差異而已但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成公示的幾項原因我做一個比較敘述性的說明第一個因為這個其實親耳道有一點"},{"start":2277.308,"end":2300.237,"text":"因為個案修法的疑慮有相關的訴訟案件目前還在纏訟當中特別是花蓮縣的部分跟殺死業者之間所引發的一連串的爭議跟行政糾結從105年到現在一直在纏訟當中這個我讓主席瞭解一下所以這個此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法的口實這是第一個"},{"start":2302.618,"end":2305.001,"text":"原條文第四條有規範30個人限制,卻限縮在所謂的中央立法所定的範疇"},{"start":2318.335,"end":2334.293,"text":"那也就是說只要是地方新增的這個稅源就沒有受這個比例上的限制那新增的稅源的部分有地方的相關條文是第三條你如果沒有一個比例上的限制的話那恐然無法預期那個稅率是如何"},{"start":2334.973,"end":2357.628,"text":"也就是說變成地方政府的整個地方自治的這個權力變毫無可以預測或依循所以它幾倍就變幾倍變成這種狀況所以說如果要修這條法的話嚴格來說也要附帶連同第三條一併來做修正這樣才會有一個比較有完整性"},{"start":2364.692,"end":2378.66,"text":"第四個部分是說其實地方稅法通則就財政部也好或學者也好大家都有類似的看法財政部也委託過研究就認為這個其實限制太多應該修法"},{"start":2382.282,"end":2404.925,"text":"陳委員前兩天主持的這個公聽會當中,我們也不斷提到說要充實地方的這個財源,增加他的自主能力,地方稅法通則應該要修。您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嗎?所以地方稅法通則其實老實講,對大部分的這個地方政府來說的話是看得到吃不到。"},{"start":2405.385,"end":2432.651,"text":"或即便吃得到也吃一點點然後因為只想可以吃一點點他就是要想要吃很大口所以產生了今天這個很大的爭議想成今天這個很大的爭議說源頭還是這一部法案呢基本上應該要去面對要去修然後要一個同盤的考量就如同我剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係那是不是其他的這個稅源有可能再有一點開拓性不要太多的限制性這個其實基本上我是認為那個"},{"start":2435.024,"end":2455.148,"text":"財政部責無旁貸而且次長這個是專家當中的專家署長也算是在次長之後而已所以財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊如果他們想不出來誰能夠想得出來而且講白一點我認為這個條文一來真的要請財政部費刑去了解地方政府的一些相關的需求他們有沒有"},{"start":2461.529,"end":2461.97,"text":"懲罰財政部"},{"start":2491.629,"end":2516.757,"text":"所以說我是覺得是那個這個部分希望財政部再根據上一次的這個我們的公聽會的結論陳委員所做當任主席所做的結論還有今天這個政黨協商能夠盡速壓個日期好了看能不能在六個月內提出一些那相關的一個草案這個很重要提出一個那個"},{"start":2517.837,"end":2517.977,"text":"郭委員有意見嗎"},{"start":2538.235,"end":2551.445,"text":"主要是第四條的部分因為是委員提案嘛那委員提案的部分主要就是讓第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚因為本來我們第四條的立法本頁也是以中央立法的地方稅"},{"start":2552.666,"end":2570.001,"text":"這次委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化當然剛才郭委員講的這件事情涉及到地方政府他們開徵的權責那要不要把那個現行我們這個第三條有些限縮的範圍要不要再"},{"start":2570.541,"end":2587.63,"text":"放寬目前我們第三條限縮的範圍其實都有通案性的當時訂立的時候有全國全盤性的考慮當然需不需要再另外就是因為這次配合採訪法我們都覺得說地方稅法通則可能應該要並同做一個檢討"},{"start":2588.97,"end":2588.99,"text":"賴委員"},{"start":2611.124,"end":2624.617,"text":"我講這個題目是非常中性的而且很專業的題目我主要當初提這個修法主要是看到過去的立委也是財稅專家曾鉅威"},{"start":2628.621,"end":2650.968,"text":"他有一篇的在經濟日報吧有一篇的社論還有一篇的專欄特別提到所以現在來講的話我們地方稅法通則講說讓地方可以百分之三十裡面的調高的部分調高也調低但事實上基本上是調高啦那就就裡面來講的話事實上"},{"start":2652.768,"end":2653.269,"text":"中央立法地方稅"},{"start":2665.492,"end":2684.953,"text":"那這個就尊重地方政府,我去強調,等於把這個權力下放給地方。我要出來之前,剛剛為什麼不要玩呢?因為還接收到兩個媒體的這個,這個林立倫之聲的記者,這個題目,怎麼中心的題目為什麼還要?"},{"start":2685.894,"end":2686.054,"text":"中央"},{"start":2704.173,"end":2704.233,"text":"中央請客"},{"start":2734.953,"end":2755.358,"text":"目前來講整個的趨勢大家的希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性你現在就是說除了他等於是除了中央訂的條30%以外其他部分呢就尊重地方他也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調還要經過他的地方的議會"},{"start":2756.977,"end":2774.99,"text":"要議會同意,要議會通過,因為沒有過也不能做,他還不是說能夠地方政府去來獨裁,所以這個來講的話,我是希望說看會怎麼樣啦,這個可以有共識,那就通過吧,如果不能有共識,那就送到院委處理吧。"},{"start":2777.774,"end":2803.788,"text":"我剛綜合大家的意見這個剛剛郭委員講得很好這個當然但是你說所謂的個案修法那立法院常常就是遇到事情重大事情才會進行修法因為我們有時候比較慢通常沒有先進一步再修法我們應該檢討而不是說比如說像比如說消防我們說發生什麼消防事故的時候我們就開始萬馬十萬火急的開始修這個消防相關的法令所以為個案修法不等於是壞事"},{"start":2804.748,"end":2822.585,"text":"反而我們要檢討說為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法,因為我們比較,立法院的同仁們,我們比較遠見我們還應該事先修法,但是事後亡羊補牢猶未完矣,我們還是要跟得上這個時代的這個改變嘛,那剛剛,我剛剛舉消防的案例當例子,不是說未更修法就不好,"},{"start":2823.185,"end":2823.205,"text":"臺灣民眾議員"},{"start":2845.223,"end":2872.105,"text":"共同的這個想法所以我覺得承諾剛剛理事長所說的這個地方稅法通則我禮拜一也有講本來也是應該修你們也有提出來我也是很支持所以市長也的確是全盤的部分也應該是要去檢討我們才會往前走你們遂者要跟上那這個關於這個單項法律委員已經有賴委員跟副委員都已經提出來我們就往前走那後面你們該修的也要跟上不要說因為這個那我也贊同你說要研究所以"},{"start":2872.645,"end":2873.566,"text":"我也支持你的想法。"},{"start":2887.833,"end":2888.073,"text":"財政部長財政部長"},{"start":2918.483,"end":2945.761,"text":"我還有不同意見謝謝主席的回應第一個基本上往往有些重大事件的時候修法確實是有不是沒有但是這件事情不是事後現在是進行中ING它並不是事後也就是這個所有個案修法的疑慮在這邊而且在司法訴訟當中有兩兆雙方任何修法都會影響個別權益的問題"},{"start":2947.422,"end":2965.058,"text":"所以說這個基本上要慎重的一個原因是在這邊那第二個部分呢基本上我的論點其實都一樣就是說地方需要多一點稅源地方資助 地方財政需要更多的資助然後地方稅法通則需要修但是問題是怎麼修啊不是這樣修啦所以說我的保留意見是這樣子"},{"start":2965.618,"end":2979.333,"text":"所以我覺得剛剛還有一點就呼籲一下賴士葆委員就是說第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款因為它限制實在有六大限制實在限制非常的多因此其實要動的話應該連同第三條一起動那配套來做處理這樣會比較完整一點"},{"start":2981.195,"end":2998.991,"text":"否則的話真的會陷入個案的修法的疑慮單純的用這一條來說那事實上我說的這個個案修法事實上是有一些司法案件正在訴訟當中因此我認為說這部法案需要修但是怎麼修應該比較全面的修讓地方政府更有裁員的修而不是為個案而修以上"},{"start":3001.397,"end":3017.217,"text":"我再提一下這不是什麼個案因為這個案子我在第十屆就提出來了第十屆因為屆期不連續那時候副委沒有提案只有我一個人提案只有我一個人提案在第十屆我就提了"},{"start":3017.777,"end":3045.72,"text":"主要各位都知道我們當立委這麼久就是你想修這個想修那個一定是看各界各界名家各個教授他們的看法因為那天我就看到這個曾俊輝修了這一篇我覺得說這個很有道理喔來著手來修所以我第十屆開始修但第十屆沒有過所以屆期不連續那這一屆得又拿出來修那故事整個story是這樣子的不需要什麼都把它政治化的時候戴上一個帽子不過"},{"start":3046.38,"end":3061.682,"text":"我尊重國務委員的立場 那就看我們主席怎麼裁定吧 好不好好 我尊重大家的意見事實上立法院法令本來就會影響到很多的個案比如說我們上一屆修民法的利息本來是20%"},{"start":3062.583,"end":3088.036,"text":"官員修正是16%嘛我記得那同時一定有很多訴訟案件是有什麼28跟16%的案子在那裡發生嘛一定有很多很多的個案這個毫無疑問的立法就是影響到百姓的這個但是我們是民意代表所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定不過如果今天大家如果覺得說沒有辦法達成一致那我們就一樣就是保留我們還有還可以送到這個還有朝野協商這個階段嘛所以我們就保留然後送這個朝野協商讓他們還有一個月可以去討論嘛"},{"start":3088.916,"end":3092.898,"text":"賴委員的專業我都沒有看證據我就看你的來做參考以上兩案均保留送院會協商謝謝大家"},{"start":3121.078,"end":3145.022,"text":"主席主席要簽了這個保留保留可以送院這還是要簽啦那個貴委員這還是要簽啦送院會前這還是要簽保留嘛送出去協商沒有就保留啊就是保留送協商啊就有主持過這個大家有來參加啊好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝送院會好"},{"start":3155.017,"end":3170.997,"text":"今後即是差了一個檔案?"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:31:50.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:32:29.880000+08:00","text":"各位同仁大家早，我們今天要進行黨團協商，協商的主題是有關財政、內政兩委員會報告併\n案審查委員賴士葆等 22 人、委員傅崐萁等 20 人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n的案子。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:33:33.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:33:46.226000+08:00","text":"我們要請各位黨團代表以及次長、署長等政府官員分別就本次協商主題「地方稅法通\n則第四條條文修正草案」表達意見，我們就到臺下進行協商。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:35:30.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:35:51.244000+08:00","text":"這個在委員會裡頭事實上已經有審查報告了，在上一回已經列席說明備詢，這是在 113 年 5 月\n6 號，今年 5 月已經聯席會議審查過了，然後提案要旨賴士葆委員跟傅委員也都有說了，大家看\n一下書面的資料上面有，我們就不再贅述。","quality":0.511},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:35:51.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:35:59.729000+08:00","text":"那時候理事長也有回應委員的提案，這個資料也有\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:36:00.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:36:42.578000+08:00","text":"至於最後的結論，財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆等人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定明為中央\n立法之地方稅，及傅崐萁委員等人提案將地方稅明定為中央立法所定的地方稅，並增訂同條第\n三項定明地方政府開徵之特別稅課、臨時稅課及附加稅課不適用第一項徵收率調高 30%之限制\n，與第四條原立法意旨相符，這是財政部的看法，所以尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:36:44.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:00.250000+08:00","text":"之前我們委員\n會已經聽取說明及詢答，還有經過大體討論，進行討論後已經有達成共識，全案審查完竣，審\n查結果是全案保留送院會處理，這是上一次開會的決議。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:00.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:12.037000+08:00","text":"所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報\n院會，院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商，也就是我們今天進行協商的目的。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:13.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:18.781000+08:00","text":"然後討論本案時，羅\n召集委員會補充說明，我今天就來補充說明。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:18.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:24.708000+08:00","text":"大家手上都有這份資料吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:24.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:30.635000+08:00","text":"這個案子看起來是單\n純啦，看起來行政院、財政部也沒有特別的反對意見，就尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:30.635000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:37:36.562000+08:00","text":"郭委員有意見，請說。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:37:36.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:38:22.237000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，就是因為有意見才會保留到政黨進行協商，雖然字眼上增加不多，然後賴\n版跟傅版其實條文上只有一、兩字的差異而已，但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成共識的幾項原因\n，我做一個比較敘述性的說明：第一個，這個其實牽扯到個案修法的疑慮，有相關的訴訟案件\n目前還在纏訟當中，特別是花蓮縣的部分跟砂石業者之間所引發的一連串爭議跟行政救濟，從\n105 年到現在一直在纏訟當中，這個我讓主席了解一下，所以此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法\n的口實，這是第一個。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:38:24.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:38:56.272000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，就法條內容來看的話，因為原條文第四條當中就有規範\n30%的限制，他卻把它限縮在所謂中央立法所定的範疇，也就是說，只要是地方新增的稅源，就\n沒有受這個比率上的限制，而新增稅源的部分，與地方相關的條文是第三條，如果沒有一個比\n率上的限制的話，恐無法預期那個稅率是如何。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:38:56.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:39:09.421000+08:00","text":"也就是說，地方自治的權利變成無法預測或毫\n354\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n無依循，它要幾倍就變幾倍，會變成這種狀況。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:39:09.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:39:19.608000+08:00","text":"所以如果要修這條法的話，嚴格來說也要附帶\n連同第三條一併來修正，這樣才會比較有完整性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:39:26.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:39:40.640000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，其實針對地方稅法通則，不論\n就財政部也好或學者也好，大家都有類似的看法，財政部也委託過研究，就認為這個限制太多\n、應該修法。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:39:44.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:39:58.016000+08:00","text":"其實在陳委員前兩天主持的公聽會當中，我們也不斷提到要充實地方的財源，增\n加它的自主能力，地方稅法通則應該要修，您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嘛！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:00.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:14.827000+08:00","text":"關於地方稅法通則，老實講，就大部分的地方政府來說的話，是看得到吃不到，或即便吃得\n到也是吃一點點，然後因為只可以吃一點點，它就想要吃很大口，所以產生了今天這個很大的\n爭議。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:16.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:32.390000+08:00","text":"所以源頭還是這一部法案應該要去面對、要去修，然後要有一個通盤的考量，就如同我\n剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係，是不是其他的稅源有可能再有一點開拓性，不要有太多\n的限制性？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:33.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:52.647000+08:00","text":"基本上我是認為財政部責無旁貸，而且次長是專家當中的專家，署長也算是在次長\n之後而已，財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊，如果他們想不出來，誰能夠想得出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:52.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:57.128000+08:00","text":"而且\n講白一點，我認為這一個條文，一來真的要請財政部費心去了解一下地方政府的一些相關需求\n，他們有沒有察覺到限制在哪裡？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:57.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:15.378500+08:00","text":"當然這是想要財政自主的人，如果沒有想要財政自主的時候\n，他可能也不太關心啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:15.378500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:33.629000+08:00","text":"但是我相信總是會有人想要多一點自主財源的可能性，因此我是認為\n這個要再花點時間請財政部召開一次會議，但是不要再委託研究，因為委託研究已經很多次了\n，哪邊可以放、哪邊不能放，如果兩位不知道的話，我想全中華民國其他 2,300 萬人也沒人知道\n啊！","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:33.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:58.757000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個部分，希望財政部再根據上一次公聽會的結論，就是陳委員擔任主席所做的\n結論，還有今天這一個政黨協商能夠押個日期好了，看能不能在 6 個月內提出相關的草案，這\n個很重要，提出一個行政院版的草案出來，讓整個地方政府有更多的稅源可以充實他們本身的\n地方財政。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:58.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.837000+08:00","text":"以上是我的看法，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.937000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝郭委員。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.977000+08:00","text":"財政部有意見嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:59.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:20.235000+08:00","text":"我回應一下好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:20.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:37.848000+08:00","text":"這次修法的內容主要是第四條的部分，因為是委員提案，委員提案的部分主要就是讓\n第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚，本來第四條的立法本意也是指以中央立法的地方稅，所以這次\n委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:38.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:05.568000+08:00","text":"剛才郭委員講的這件事情，涉及到地方政府他們開徵地方\n稅的權責，要不要把現行第三條有些限縮的範圍再放寬，當然，目前第三條限縮的範圍其實在\n當時訂定的時候都有全國全盤性的考慮，需不需要再另外配合這次財劃法的修正？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:05.568000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:33.124000+08:00","text":"委員們都覺\n得地方稅法通則可能應該要併同做一個檢討，我們應該也是可以回去另外再召集會議，但是因\n為那個是全盤性的考量，跟這次委員提案當然是兩件事情，所以可能還是看看今天怎麼樣處理\n的結果，我們都尊重。","quality":0.253},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:33.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:38.129000+08:00","text":"我講這個題目是非常中性的，而且很專業的題目。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:39.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:33.298000+08:00","text":"我當初提這個修法，主要是看到過\n去的立委、也是財稅專家曾巨威，在經濟日報有一篇社論還有一篇專欄特別提到，現在來講，\n355\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n地方稅法通則讓地方可以在 30%裡面調高的部分（調高也調低，但事實上基本上是調高），就\n裡面來講，事實上範圍的部分能夠把它限縮在中央立法的地方稅這部分，中央如果沒有立，就\n尊重地方政府，我強調等於把這個權力下放給地方。","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:33.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:35.200000+08:00","text":"我剛剛為什麼比較晚？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:35.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:46.933000+08:00","text":"因為還接受到兩個媒體裡面很資深的記者就問我，這麼中性的題目，\n為什麼還要協商？","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:46.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:03.606333+08:00","text":"就問我這個問題，我說不知道，反正就協商，我們來講清楚，沒有要針對誰\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:03.606333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:20.279667+08:00","text":"而且我們強調這個也是一致的，像財劃法也是如此，就是中央管地方的時候，中央是不是能\n夠放一點權力給地方？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:20.279667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:36.953000+08:00","text":"以現在來講的話，我們還有一個現象，就是常常是中央請客、地方買單\n，比如現在講什麼里長加薪、加什麼的，都是地方政府在買單，不是中央政府去買單；像娛樂\n稅，現在放了，你們娛樂稅是強調很久，你們現在放了，過去都不放。","quality":0.044},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:36.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:05.662000+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得針對現在目前來講整個的趨勢，大家都希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性，等於是\n除了中央訂的調 30%以外，其他的部分就尊重地方，而且也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調，\n還要經過地方的議會同意、要議會通過，議會沒有通過也不能做，所以不是地方政府就能夠來\n獨裁。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:07.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:16.970000+08:00","text":"就這個來講的話，我是希望說看看怎麼樣，可以有共識，那就通過吧；如果不能有共識\n，那就送到院會處理吧。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:19.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:22.436000+08:00","text":"我綜合剛剛大家的意見。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:22.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:43.306000+08:00","text":"剛剛郭委員講得很好，但是你說所謂的個案修法，立法院常常就是\n遇到重大事情才會進行修法，因為我們有時候比較慢，通常沒有先進一步在修法，我們應該檢\n討，比如像消防，發生什麼消防事故的時候，我們都開始十萬火急地開始修消防相關的法令。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:44.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:59.840000+08:00","text":"所以為個案修法不等於是壞事，反而我們要檢討為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法，如果我\n們立法院的同仁們比較有遠見，我們應該事先修法，但是事後亡羊補牢，猶未晚矣，我們還是\n要跟得上時代的改變。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:00.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:04.565000+08:00","text":"我剛剛是舉消防的案例當例子，不是說為個案修法就不好，只是我們要\n檢討自己為什麼沒有遠見，沒有看到比較遠的地方。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:04.565000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.045000+08:00","text":"第二個，禮拜一我們開財劃法相關的會議，事實上也是類似這個相關，也說到地方稅法通則\n要修改，讓地方比較有更強大的自主權，知道自己的財源收入要怎麼樣收比較多，然後要自給\n自足、更強一點，這個也是我們大家共同的想法。","quality":0.064},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:42.175000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得誠如剛剛李次長所說的，我禮拜\n一也有講，地方稅法通則本來也是應該修，你們也有提出來，我也是很支持，所以次長，的確\n全盤的部分也應該要去檢討，我們財劃法往前走，你們的稅則要跟上。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:43.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:55.546000+08:00","text":"關於單項法令，因為賴委員跟傅委員都已經提出來，我們就往前走，後面你們該修的也要跟\n上，我也贊同你說要研究，所以我也支持你的想法。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:55.546000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:04.533400+08:00","text":"所以應該是這麼說吧，當然如果今天可以\n達成共識，那 OK，這個法就先過了；如果郭委員有意見，當然，我們也要尊重你的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:04.533400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:13.520800+08:00","text":"我們\n如果保留出去的話，到朝野協商的時候還有 1 個月，這個月如果要做什麼研究、次長要去做什\n麼研究，也是尊重他們嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:13.520800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:22.508200+08:00","text":"至於全盤的研究，他願意給你們比較多的時間，但是財政部要知道\n，我們財劃法是往前走的，你們要研究也要快速，不是說 3 個月、6 個月，你們也要快速地趕快\n把東西送過來，不然我們也不會等待。","quality":0.052},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:22.508200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:31.495600+08:00","text":"現在尊重地方自主權很重要，尤其財劃法的精神也是這樣子，所以我覺得這個應該也沒什麼\n，如果對這個照案這樣通過，郭委員會有不同意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:31.495600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:40.483000+08:00","text":"356\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:40.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:46.267000+08:00","text":"我還有不同意見，謝謝主席的回應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:46.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:00.817000+08:00","text":"第一個，基本上往往有些重大事件的時候，修法\n確實是有，不是沒有，但是這件事情不是事後，現在是進行中 ing，它並不是事後，也就是說，\n有個案修法的疑慮在這邊。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:00.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:12.385000+08:00","text":"而且在司法訴訟當中有兩造雙方，任何修法都會影響個別權益的問\n題，所以這個要慎重的原因是在這邊。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:12.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:27.038000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，基本上，我的論點其實都一樣，就是地方需要多一點稅源，地方財政需要更多\n的自主，地方稅法通則需要修，但是問題是怎麼修，不是這樣修，所以我保留意見是這樣子。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:29.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:46.938000+08:00","text":"還有一點，就是呼應一下賴士葆委員，第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款，因為它的六\n大限制實在限制非常地多，因此其實要動的話，應該連同第三條一起動，配套來做處理，這樣\n會比較完整一點，否則的話，單純地用這一條來說，真的會陷入個案修法的疑慮，。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:48.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:56.166000+08:00","text":"事實上，\n我說的個案修法確實是有司法案件正在訴訟當中，因此我認為這部法案需要修，但是怎麼修？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:56.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:00.971000+08:00","text":"應該比較全面地修，讓地方政府更有財源的修，而不是為個案而修。以上。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:03.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:19.197000+08:00","text":"我再提一下，這不是什麼個案，因為這個案子我在第 10 屆就提出來了，但是因為屆\n期不連續……那時候傅委員沒有提案，只有我一個人提案，在第 10 屆我就提了。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:20.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:34.889000+08:00","text":"各位都知道，\n我們當立委這麼久，你想修這個、想修那個，一定是看各界名家、各個教授他們的看法，那天\n我就看到曾巨威寫的這一篇，我覺得很有道理，就著手來修。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:35.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:52.486000+08:00","text":"所以我是從第 10 屆開始修，但第\n10 屆沒有過，屆期不連續，這一屆又拿出來修，整個故事、story 是這樣子的，不需要什麼都把\n它政治化、戴上一個帽子，不過我尊重郭委員的立場，那就看主席怎麼裁定吧。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:53.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:55.811000+08:00","text":"我們尊重大家的意見。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:55.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:18.250000+08:00","text":"事實上，立法院的法令本來就會影響到很多的個案，比如我們上一屆\n修民法的利息，本來是 20%，我記得後來好像修成是 16%，那同時一定有很多訴訟案件有 20%\n跟 16%的案子在那裡發生，一定有很多、很多的個案，這個毫無疑問，立法就是會影響到百姓\n，但是我們是民意代表，所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:18.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:26.194000+08:00","text":"如果今天大家都覺得沒有辦法\n達成一致，我們就一樣，就是保留，我們還有朝野協商這個階段，對不對？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:27.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:30.016000+08:00","text":"所以我們就保留，\n然後送朝野協商，讓他們還有 1 個月可以去討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:30.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:31.016000+08:00","text":"保留，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:31.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:32.016000+08:00","text":"其實，我待會委員會還有一點時間，我本來還要跟你繼續討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:32.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:33.016000+08:00","text":"我們保留送院會協商，送院會協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:33.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:34.016000+08:00","text":"因為這件事情是 105 年就開始了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:30.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:32.857000+08:00","text":"應該是第 9 屆就開始了，可能……不過以賴委員的專業，我都沒有看證據，我就看你\n的來做參考。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:32.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:34.878000+08:00","text":"好，以上兩案均保留，送院會協商，謝謝大家。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:34.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:35.878000+08:00","text":"散會（9 時 51 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:35.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:36.878000+08:00","text":"好，現在時間 4 點半，那我們現在開始進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:36.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:37.878000+08:00","text":"我先跟大家請安一下，我們的行政部門是\n我們劉世芳部長，還有我們中選會的陳副主委朝建。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:37.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:38.878000+08:00","text":"在場還有我們國民黨團的是許宇甄委員，\n民眾黨團是麥玉珍委員，民進黨團則是吳思瑤幹事長、蔡易餘書記長，還有我們的王美惠委員\n，還有各位媒體記者們，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:38.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:39.878000+08:00","text":"我們今天協商的主題是針對本院委員傅崐萁等 16 人、許宇甄\n委員等 20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，由我們負責召集來進行黨團\n的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:39.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:40.878000+08:00","text":"我們先介紹今天列席的官員，內政部部長劉世芳劉部長，還有中選會的陳朝建陳副主\n委，其他的就請參考我們今天的列席名單。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:40.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:41.878000+08:00","text":"我們沈伯洋委員、張雅琳委員也到場了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:41.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:42.878000+08:00","text":"我們就進入今天的協商，我剛才提過本次協商的主題是傅崐萁委員等 16 人以及許宇甄委員等\n20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，經第 1 會期第 22 次會議決定：逕付\n二讀，併案交付黨團協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:42.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:43.878000+08:00","text":"針對本法案的內容，我想我們就先請國民黨提案的代表許宇甄委員\n做提案的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:43.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:44.878000+08:00","text":"先進行說明，坐著說明就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:44.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:45.878000+08:00","text":"主席、各位列席官員、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:45.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:46.878000+08:00","text":"我想這一次針對選罷法的修正案，主要是\n因為在選罷法的施行過程中，我們發覺很多的連署有一些亂象，包括一些錯假連署、抄名冊連\n署或者是死亡連署，我們發覺有很多這樣的問題，甚至很多都是筆跡相同，可是礙於現在的選\n罷法沒有辦法真正的能夠去把這個問題兜出來，只要是有問題，有問題的一定要再寄詢問單給\n本人，如果本人沒有回覆的，這一份連署書又算是正確的、為真的、有效的，我們認為這樣的\n一個方式確實對於罷免有產生很大的一個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:46.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:47.878000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望在這過程中能夠讓罷免更為嚴謹\n，其實罷免的核心精神主要是要課責公職人員，而不是為了要讓這些錯假連署或者有這麼多的\n連署亂象而造成讓罷免能夠更為容易，我們希望能夠恢復其嚴謹性，所以我特別提案，就是希\n望能夠把我們公民投票法部分修正條文草案第十二條規定公投連署要提供身分證正反面影本，\n我們的理由是為了防止虛偽連署的情事，也避免破壞公民投票的公正性，也希望大家都能夠關\n注這一個相關的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:47.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:48.878000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:48.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:49.878000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:49.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:50.878000+08:00","text":"我們提案的委員講完之後，我們先請行政部門做適時的一個答復，然後再請各黨\n團表示意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:50.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:51.878000+08:00","text":"現在有王鴻薇委員到場；另外，今天列席的還有法務部的廖江憲參事，還有司法\n院民事廳的劉素如法官。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:51.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:52.878000+08:00","text":"針對這個法條的修正，是不是請我們內政部劉世芳部長先表達你的看法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:52.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:53.878000+08:00","text":"還是要等我們各黨\n……那委員先講好了，再請行政部門來表示意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:53.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:54.878000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:54.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:55.878000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:55.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:56.878000+08:00","text":"我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了\n358\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n應當有的程序正義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:56.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:57.878000+08:00","text":"我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案，那個\n時候有涉及門檻的提高，後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查，上個會期的 7 月份發\n生了委員會會議室臨時更換的一些……我認為在臺灣國會史上都創下非常糟的惡例，以致於那\n一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:57.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:58.878000+08:00","text":"之後許委員的案子撤了，現在是\n新的案子，現在傅崐萁委員的案子跟許宇甄委員的案子是新版的提案，然後在院會是用逕付二\n讀的方式，也就是逕付二讀，內政委員會就沒有審查而直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:58.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:59.878000+08:00","text":"上一週\n在協商總預算的時候，我們赫然發現，居然韓國瑜院長召集、院長 level 的朝野協商，在協商總\n預算的那個協商，居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法，所以在那一次（上週）韓\n國瑜院長主持的朝野協商，其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑，今天算是導回正\n確的程序，回到由提案的政黨─國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商，今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有\n的正常程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:59.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:00.878000+08:00","text":"但是我也發現了一個問題，也想問一下主席，選罷法這麼重要，憲法第十七條賦予人民選舉\n、罷免、創制、複決的權利，這麼慎重，但沒有經過委員會的審查，因為它是逕付二讀，那今\n天的協商就非常重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:00.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:01.878000+08:00","text":"主席您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時，是一小時就要結束嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:01.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:02.878000+08:00","text":"我\n們希望能夠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:02.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:03.878000+08:00","text":"你的協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:03.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:04.878000+08:00","text":"你的開會通知上預定會議時間是寫 1 小時，我希望說這麼重要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:04.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:05.878000+08:00","text":"OK，那就釐清了，主席沒有這個預定時間這樣的設定，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:05.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:06.878000+08:00","text":"因為這需要好好的來討論，到 5 點半就是 1 小時啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:06.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:07.878000+08:00","text":"這是第一件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:07.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:08.878000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:08.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:09.878000+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:09.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:10.878000+08:00","text":"尊重我的發言、尊重我的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:10.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:11.878000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言，因為這麼重要，\n逕付二讀的話，委員會已經沒有討論，這是憲法第十七條規範的人民的基本權利，當然要好好\n討論，當然我們是希望它應當沒有逕付二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:11.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:12.878000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，我也覺得很有疑惑，今天的黨團協商都還沒有進行、還沒有召開，我們剛剛居\n然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午 3 點鐘的朝野協商通知，已經把這個列為第二案，第一\n案是總預算要持續的來討論，第二案就是選罷法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:12.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:13.878000+08:00","text":"所以我們非常質疑難道韓院長認為林思銘委\n員、國民黨團召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:13.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:14.878000+08:00","text":"所以就預先又跳過了程序、預先排了明天就\n要討論選罷法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:14.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.878000+08:00","text":"是韓國瑜院長不信任林思銘、今天會議主席的協調能力嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.878000+08:00","text":"還是說國民黨的朋\n友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.878000+08:00","text":"只排一小時，然後這麼重要、逕付二讀、攸關人民\n基本權利，委員會已經沒有時間、沒有機會討論了，今天預設一個小時就要結束這場協商，甚\n359\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論，明天朝野協商再討論，然後下一關是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:18.878000+08:00","text":"就是\n禮拜五院會就可以表決了，是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:18.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:19.878000+08:00","text":"我想問一下這個程序啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:19.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:20.878000+08:00","text":"主席，這是程序問題，要不然\n我可以先針對程序問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:20.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:21.878000+08:00","text":"好、好，請主席說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:21.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:22.878000+08:00","text":"思瑤，我想今天的協商完全依照我們的議事規則去召集的，也是回應那天你們希望我們再次\n召開這個黨團的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:22.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:23.878000+08:00","text":"您知道韓院長已經發了明天的協商通知了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:23.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:24.878000+08:00","text":"我現在是針對我……今天是我的協商，我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:24.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.878000+08:00","text":"但是\n我希望大家不要再去講題外話，就針對今天的重點─這五個條文，大家發表自己的看法，因為\n這樣講下去，我講實在話，這樣一直講下去，意見都會重複啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.878000+08:00","text":"我想我們現在來協商就是希望\n大家形成共識，若有一致的意見，我們就達成協商，沒有辦法達成協商的話，當然我們就意見\n不一致……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.878000+08:00","text":"主席，我想繼續，謝謝你的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.878000+08:00","text":"今天是這個屆期第一次討論選罷法，朝野的委員可以坐下來討論，這是第一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.878000+08:00","text":"我們\n當然希望它是在內政委員會，但是逕付二讀後就到了今天的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.878000+08:00","text":"所以我希望主席能夠理解，\n會議才剛開始，我是第一個發言的委員，不要說大家又講重複的話、不要扯太多，come on！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.878000+08:00","text":"我\n們才剛坐下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.878000+08:00","text":"希望、希望，你儘量講，我就聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.878000+08:00","text":"所以說我以歷次選罷法幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告，2015 年修選罷法，將政黨\n補助的門檻由 5%下修至 3.5%，那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員，他在委員會審查\n三次，委員會沒有共識，後續交付朝野協商，協商的次數是兩次，這是同樣的選罷法；2016 年\n選罷法也修了，就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻，也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃\n國昌提案，罷免完全不需要有門檻的那一次，那一次也是陳其邁當召委，在委員會討論五次、\n協商兩次；同樣是選罷法，在 2023 年針對公職候選人的排黑條款，排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委\n員，委員會討論的次數是七次、協商的次數是兩次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.878000+08:00","text":"我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉\n罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案，選罷法歷次的修正都由委員會充分討論，討論三次、討論五\n次、討論七次，也有充分的朝野協商，各協商兩次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.878000+08:00","text":"所以我真的很衷心希望剛剛思銘委員……\n其實我對思銘委員非常的尊重，您所說的不是只是過水，你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履\n行讓大家討論的這個前提，如果今天能夠讓大家好好的討論，我援引過去選罷法修正花了這麼\n多次、這麼多討論的時間，我非常期待，不要預設了一個立場，思銘委員應該要做的一件事情\n是，也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長，跟他說相信林思銘，你會好好如您所說的，在黨團協\n商的歷程過程當中會好好地讓委員充分表達意見，韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場、認為今\n天協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水，也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報\n360\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n告，無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.878000+08:00","text":"否則外界也非\n常疑惑，韓院長就預先排了明天朝野協商要處理選罷法，那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會來處\n理，我不希望發生這樣的事情，這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的職權行使，不應當是快轉、不\n應當是過水、不應當是強渡關山，所以我先起了這個，程序上歷次修選罷法在委員會層級充分\n討論，協商的次數也充分討論，像過去這樣修法的經驗，我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋\n友們、提案的委員們不要為快而快、不要為修而修、不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人\n民的權利。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.878000+08:00","text":"這是程序上的發言，我先報告到這裡，稍後實質法案的內容部分，我也有很多準備\n要討論的內容，再請主席給我時間，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.878000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.878000+08:00","text":"那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員：林倩綺委員、翁曉玲委員、蘇巧\n慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪申翰委員、張宏陸委員、陳培瑜委員，大家都很關心這個案子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.878000+08:00","text":"我想\n明天不管是……因為我們沒有預設立場，如果今天能夠協商達成共識，當然是最好的，但是韓\n院長或許他有他的考量，我們也不要去預設立場說他就一定怎樣怎樣，我是很不喜歡去猜人家\n說怎樣怎樣，反正我們一切按照議事程序走，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.878000+08:00","text":"現在請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.878000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們今天朝野協商，本來收到的就是今天 4 點半大家來協商，但是我們收\n到韓國瑜院長明天排 3 點的協商，一樣是要研商這個選罷法，那我們覺得很奇怪的就是說，有\n這麼急嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.878000+08:00","text":"因為我們知道說今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣，但是如果協商不成就換院長排\n，那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論的情況下就先排了明天的協商，那我們可以預測，就是\n禮拜五要表決了，就是今天、明天、禮拜五，有這麼急嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.878000+08:00","text":"這個涉及到人民選舉、罷免、創制\n、複決，這是最重要的公民參與政治的權利，這東西多討論一些，用多一點時間讓大家討論又\n會怎樣呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.878000+08:00","text":"何必急著，今天黨團協商、明天院長協商、禮拜五表決，然後就說結束了、三讀通\n過了，然後以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高，以後光是要成案都非常的困難，讓罷免的權利\n……從此以後要看到罷免大概就很困難了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.878000+08:00","text":"我們就再回到這件事的本源，就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.878000+08:00","text":"如果這個門檻是不合理的、不合理到你隨便要找人出來罷免某個人都可以罷免成功，那這一次\n基隆市長的罷免就會過了啊，後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.878000+08:00","text":"可以證明說現在這一個制度所訂的這\n個罷免門檻，你看有些人會被罷免成功，但大部分是罷免失敗，大部分是失敗，所以在現行的\n制度之下，它的門檻是高的，沒那麼簡單。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.878000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在要討論選罷法，然後把罷免門檻大幅\n增加，而且這個增加是讓未來連成案都產生困難，因為你知道你要去連署罷免，然後你要繳交\n身分證的影本給這個罷免團體，要你交身分證影本給人家，現在大家重視個資的保護，我們要\n把身分證交給人家是何其嚴重的事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.878000+08:00","text":"所以我們認為說在罷免的時候，沒有必要把它的門檻拉\n到說你連讓它成案的難度會高到這樣一個程度，我們還是覺得說大家在程序上要三思，我們多\n一點討論，若今天協商不成，主席你可以再排一次協商，你可以下禮拜再排協商，何必這樣連\n三天連三關？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.878000+08:00","text":"這樣看起來，你們國民黨、藍白的用意就很清楚了，你們就是禮拜五要用人數的\n優勢強行表決通過，看起來你們目的就是這樣，你就直接講嘛！不然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.878000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們今天的協商","quality":0},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.878000+08:00","text":"我們今天協商不成，我下禮拜還要排，那我會去跟韓院長說請他明天先不要\n361\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n排，這件事我林思銘有信心，我可以好好的溝通，我今天排完，我下禮拜再排，讓真的關心選\n罷法的人都可以來這裡暢所欲言，讓他多說幾句，這才是民主的真諦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.878000+08:00","text":"尤其我們現在要行使的\n這個修法，是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的權利，我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候，是不是在\n討論上再多一點程序的討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.878000+08:00","text":"就像你現在讓我們說，我們大家就覺得我們要表達我們的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.878000+08:00","text":"好，我會讓你們說，但是針對主題講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.878000+08:00","text":"而且我們每一個人，然後我要跟主席講，不能說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.878000+08:00","text":"主席，你不能講說誰在重複發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.878000+08:00","text":"縱使是同樣的一句話，不同的人說就代表不同的民意基礎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:00.878000+08:00","text":"我們每一個人，縱使是區域立委跟不分區立委，不分區立委也是有他的選票，他是政\n黨票，都有他的民意基礎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:00.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:01.878000+08:00","text":"你不可以去說，誰講了，誰又講重複了，所以後面的人就不能講，我們覺得這樣做不\n對，讓大家充分討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:01.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:02.878000+08:00","text":"我會給你們講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:02.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.878000+08:00","text":"我想大家也尊重我這個主席，因為我不希望聽到就是說同樣一件事情不斷的\n複誦。No！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:04.878000+08:00","text":"我剛才講了，這不是複誦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:04.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:05.878000+08:00","text":"所以我希望，你表達你的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:05.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:06.878000+08:00","text":"因為我們每個人代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:06.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:07.878000+08:00","text":"我們代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:07.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.878000+08:00","text":"把意見表達出來，我們就是儘量表達你的意見，但是就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:09.878000+08:00","text":"我儘量表達，但是不能說是重複……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:09.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:10.878000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，你等一下第二輪發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:10.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:11.878000+08:00","text":"那我剛剛講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:11.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:12.878000+08:00","text":"第二輪發言都重複的意見，第二輪又是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:12.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:13.878000+08:00","text":"我還沒第二輪。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:13.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:14.878000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:14.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:15.878000+08:00","text":"他還沒有第二輪，不要預設立場！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:15.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:16.878000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講別的東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:16.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:17.878000+08:00","text":"362\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:17.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:18.878000+08:00","text":"謝謝，你第二輪講別的東西，我們才會整個聚焦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:18.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:19.878000+08:00","text":"我對於今天的協商我提出訴求嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:19.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:20.878000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:20.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:21.878000+08:00","text":"上禮拜……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:21.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:22.878000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:22.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:23.878000+08:00","text":"我在尊重，我在跟主席溝通啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:23.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:24.878000+08:00","text":"各位，真的，我希望這樣子，大家不要把同樣的事情，第一輪講這樣，第二輪又講一樣，第\n三輪又講這樣，這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:24.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:25.878000+08:00","text":"各位，就這樣了，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:25.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:26.878000+08:00","text":"主席在跟我講重複發言這件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:26.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:27.878000+08:00","text":"謝謝，好啦，好啦，OK，易餘 OK……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:27.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.878000+08:00","text":"我現在要說的重點是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:29.878000+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛問我，我回答你，我是希望你第二輪發言不要重複。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:29.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:30.878000+08:00","text":"我要說的重點是不要說誰是重複發言，每個人都有代表不同的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:30.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:31.878000+08:00","text":"這我回答你了，希望你第二輪不要一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:31.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:32.878000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會避開，我不會講同樣的東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:32.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:33.878000+08:00","text":"但是我具體的訴求就是我們看到了韓院長明天也排了協商，所以這代表禮拜五就是要\n排表決了，二讀、三讀下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:33.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:34.878000+08:00","text":"院長他有他的……這個我不能幫他決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:34.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:35.878000+08:00","text":"我們這樣看起來的話，就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:35.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:36.878000+08:00","text":"你今天叫我們來這裡過水，你叫我們來這邊過水，我們是不接受的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:36.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:37.878000+08:00","text":"好，OK，丁學忠委員也到場參與了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:37.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:38.878000+08:00","text":"現在我們以舉手先後，請許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:38.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:39.878000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:39.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:40.878000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛有特別提到為什麼這個案子會逕付二讀，我來喚醒一下大家的記\n憶，我們其實在內政委員會有排審兩次，一次在這裡，當時民進黨的委員們占領主席台，讓我\n們沒有辦法審查；第二次高金召委又排案了一次，也是一樣，半夜就有人闖進內政委員會，導\n致我們也沒辦法排案審查，經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭，所以為什麼當時會逕付二\n讀，主要是這樣的原因，並不是我們不排案審查，這第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:40.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:41.878000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛蔡易餘書記長特別\n有提到說，針對我這次的提案希望能附上身分證影本的部分，他認為個資的問題非常嚴重，可\n是我這邊有一個是蔡易餘委員跟吳秉叡委員的提案，針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文，就是要\n附上身分證影本的提案，表示當時蔡易餘委員既然都覺得要附上身分證影本的提案是正確的\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:41.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:42.878000+08:00","text":"那是發證日期！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:42.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:43.878000+08:00","text":"沒有喔，你的是不管是發證日期或是身分證影本的話，就是認為說，因為你發證影本\n363\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也必須要去對嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:43.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.878000+08:00","text":"然後就是我們看到，在上個會期第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他\n們也針對公投法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:45.878000+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡，等一下，等一下，那個不用附影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:45.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:46.878000+08:00","text":"我先講完，等一下換你，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:46.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:47.878000+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:47.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:48.878000+08:00","text":"他有插你的話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:48.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:49.878000+08:00","text":"那個講錯了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:49.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:50.878000+08:00","text":"不是，那我剛剛也沒插你的話，讓我講完你就可以再說明，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:50.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.878000+08:00","text":"各位委員，發言委員在發言的時候，大家儘量不要插話，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:52.878000+08:00","text":"另外就是在第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出公投法的修正條文\n草案，吳思瑤委員也是連署人，裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料，貼附本人國民身分證的影本\n，這在第 10 屆的提案，表示說其實有很多民進黨的委員也都認同應該要附上身分證影本，所以\n我覺得這個只是一個資格，你說要怎麼樣，我覺得每個連署人或是提議人，他本來就有那個責\n任要去保護每個人的個資，也就是他收到身分證影本，他要善盡保護的責任，否則現在總統的\n選舉辦法就不用也是要這樣附身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:52.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:53.878000+08:00","text":"所以我想這個部分，應該是附上身分證影本只是加\n強對連署的嚴謹性跟公平性，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:53.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:54.878000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員，我以舉手先後啦，各位委員有舉手我會登記下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:54.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:55.878000+08:00","text":"現在請王鴻薇委員\n，再請張宏陸委員準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:03.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:04.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，主席也很辛苦。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:05.058000+08:00","text":"今天選罷法的協商，大家也可以看到民進黨很大陣仗的來\n做關心跟發言，但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方，我們必須要去做一個澄清。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:06.058000+08:00","text":"剛才吳思瑤幹事長\n一直強調說為什麼不能討論呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:07.058000+08:00","text":"應該好好在內政委員會討論呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:08.058000+08:00","text":"可是我想大家都記得，我想大\n家記憶力不是那麼淺，我們的腦袋應該不是金魚腦，在上個會期，當時高金素梅擔任召委，曾\n經有兩次的排審，第一次的排審還排到吳秉叡委員，也就是蔡易餘委員也當共同提案人的案子\n，在那一次大家應該也非常清楚，當時可以討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:09.058000+08:00","text":"當時可以討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:10.058000+08:00","text":"因為民進黨的委員全部\n都占據在主席台上，記不記得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:11.058000+08:00","text":"後來我們沒有辦法，只好把會議室改到群賢樓，那個時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:12.058000+08:00","text":"不是群賢樓，是隔壁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:13.058000+08:00","text":"不是啦，那是第二次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:14.058000+08:00","text":"我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.058000+08:00","text":"有啊，你忘記了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.058000+08:00","text":"你忘\n記了，你們占據主席台，我待會會講到，你們占據主席台可能占領的非常習慣了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.058000+08:00","text":"在第一次是 7\n月 4 日，7 月 4 日排審，然後沒有辦法，所以當時的召委只好來換會議室，可是那時候占據內政\n委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們，幾乎是軟禁我們相關的議事人員，讓他們無法離開，這就是\n要討論的民進黨黨團，用這樣的方式討論，用軟禁議事人員的方式，讓他不能夠開會，達成不\n能開會的目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:18.058000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得我現在在這邊，聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談「我們需\n要討論啊」、「充分討論啊」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:19.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得可能我們今天需要感謝的是，還好今天民進黨團在這個\n協商會議沒有占領主席台，讓這個協商根本開不成，所以 7 月 4 日是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:20.058000+08:00","text":"我想吳思瑤委員只\n記得 7 月 8 日那一場，我們換了議場，當天黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:21.058000+08:00","text":"我不曉得\n364\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n在凌晨的時候，在整個還沒有開議、還沒有開門的時候，就直接把門打開了，這個事情我覺得\n韓國瑜院長是非常的寬厚，對不對？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:22.058000+08:00","text":"破壞公物至此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:23.058000+08:00","text":"所以請問一下，當時民進黨黨團想要討論的話，為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天不是都在\n開會討論嗎？","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:24.058000+08:00","text":"我不是內政委員會，也大概是 8 點以前嘛，大家來登記發言嘛，來做討論、來做\n陳述嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.058000+08:00","text":"但是能嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.058000+08:00","text":"請問一下，民進黨給討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.058000+08:00","text":"民進黨團給討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.058000+08:00","text":"所以今天在這邊指責國\n民黨團說幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.058000+08:00","text":"急什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.058000+08:00","text":"逕付二讀，為什麼不給討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.058000+08:00","text":"不敢討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.058000+08:00","text":"問題是民進黨黨團不給討\n論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.058000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講，就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺，當然如果說立法院本來就是講道理\n的地方，大家論述的地方，所以以今天來說，說是韓國瑜院長對我們林思銘書記長沒有信心嗎\n？","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.058000+08:00","text":"我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心，連內政委員會好好的排案，你們都不願意討論，都要\n霸占主席台，請問一下，我們還如何的好好說道理呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.058000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才蔡易餘書記長一直在講說「啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.058000+08:00","text":"你們現在就這樣設定啦，今天過水啦，明天就是\n院長做朝野協商，星期五就要表決。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.058000+08:00","text":"」好厲害喔，我也是黨團幹部，我們在黨團內部都沒有討\n論到的事情，哇，你都知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.058000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，星期五的設定，應該是民進黨團的設定吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.058000+08:00","text":"應該是\n民進黨團的設定，因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候，已經在立法院附近搶下路權了，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.058000+08:00","text":"搶路權應該是在上個禮拜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.058000+08:00","text":"所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.058000+08:00","text":"是青鳥設定的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.058000+08:00","text":"是民進\n黨團設定的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.058000+08:00","text":"是你們控制青鳥，還是青鳥控制你們，我不知道，因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議\n場，忘記了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.058000+08:00","text":"忘記了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.058000+08:00","text":"上個會期不就在那邊青鳥要要飛進立法院嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.058000+08:00","text":"好，所以我要講的是\n，要討論、要協商，國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序，包括剛才吳思瑤委員講說星期一的時候覺\n得還是要在內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商，我們也從善如流，我要講的是，我們絕對釋出絕\n對的善意，不會因人廢言。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼今天有這樣的協商呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.058000+08:00","text":"我們也是從善如流，但是我們真的要\n回頭想一想，到底誰不願意協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.058000+08:00","text":"另外，不願意討論的是你們，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.058000+08:00","text":"我要特別講的就是說，我相信待會可能民進黨團的同仁會談到，哎呀，怎麼樣的是違背、打\n壓公民的權利，罷免的權利、創制複決等等的權利，那我們要講的是，在我們一些相關的連署\n裡面，有身分證影本的，包含總統的連署，總統選舉的連署也是需要身分證影本，所以這不是\n獨一無二的，這不是獨一無二的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.058000+08:00","text":"另外我們希望能夠確認在整個罷免的過程中，有一些我們過\n去發現的疏漏，或者我們發現有一些其實反而是傷害了罷免的權利，所以我們把它稍做補強，\n沒有提高門檻，只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保沒有假冒的情事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.058000+08:00","text":"過去確實很多連署會出現死人\n連署的狀況，這個大家也講的非常多了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.058000+08:00","text":"剛才許宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉叡委員跟蔡易\n餘委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.058000+08:00","text":"我們不用身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.058000+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.058000+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.058000+08:00","text":"你講的與事實不符。有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.058000+08:00","text":"我哪一句與事實不符？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:00.058000+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:01.058000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:02.058000+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.058000+08:00","text":"365\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:04.058000+08:00","text":"你在緊張什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:05.058000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員不要緊張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:06.058000+08:00","text":"你講錯了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:07.058000+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.058000+08:00","text":"是拿發證日期，把它打上去而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:09.058000+08:00","text":"我還沒唸啊，你怎麼那麼緊張啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:10.058000+08:00","text":"你講錯了，你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:11.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:12.058000+08:00","text":"你說的根本跟事實不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:13.058000+08:00","text":"你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:14.058000+08:00","text":"根本沒有，你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:15.058000+08:00","text":"我是寫填具發證日期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:16.058000+08:00","text":"我只講到吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員共同提案的法案，這樣講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:17.058000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:18.058000+08:00","text":"你說要身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:19.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有講，我還沒講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:20.058000+08:00","text":"有啦，你講了啦！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:21.058000+08:00","text":"你講錯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:22.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有講錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:23.058000+08:00","text":"調影帶好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:24.058000+08:00","text":"好，你去調。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:25.058000+08:00","text":"調影帶啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:26.058000+08:00","text":"不要插我的話，不要插我的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:27.058000+08:00","text":"調一下影帶看有沒有講錯嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.058000+08:00","text":"你不要插我的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:29.058000+08:00","text":"講錯了，一直誤導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:30.058000+08:00","text":"我現在就來唸一下吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員等 21 人所提案的案由，他說鑑於近幾次\n罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書，顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重，讓有心人士藉大量的個人\n資料假冒提議連署，已經違反個人的資料保護，且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇\n，若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署，不可不謂已足以生損害於公眾或他人，為了避免假冒情事\n的發生，爰擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案，以完善罷免制度規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:31.058000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的\n是，我們現在覺得整個罷免流程有一些流弊，有一些疏失，甚至吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員都認\n為這樣的連署制度漏洞嚴重，所以之前吳秉叡委員有提案，只是後來你們撤案了，但是這不代\n表這些問題已經被解決了，所以民進黨撤案，國民黨基於負責任的態度，提出我們的版本，一\n樣的出發點，也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞，也是一樣去把這些可能產生的流弊加以解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:32.058000+08:00","text":"366\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n所以請問一下，你不能說民進黨提案好棒棒，就是什麼要減少流弊等等，國民黨提案就是危害\n到公民的罷免權，不要這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:33.058000+08:00","text":"永遠都是綠能你不能，這樣子的標準是不應該的，不要綠\n能你不能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:34.058000+08:00","text":"再來，即使內容不相同，不是完全相同……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:35.058000+08:00","text":"你承認了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:36.058000+08:00","text":"對，你講了，內容不相同！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:37.058000+08:00","text":"我講了，所以呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:38.058000+08:00","text":"所以啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:39.058000+08:00","text":"就是內容不相同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:40.058000+08:00","text":"那所以啊，你讓我講話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:41.058000+08:00","text":"你剛才說我亂講，說我講錯……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:42.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有說身分證，你講錯了啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:43.058000+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.058000+08:00","text":"你第七十六條內容……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:45.058000+08:00","text":"我到現在為止講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:46.058000+08:00","text":"他承認不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:47.058000+08:00","text":"請尊重發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:48.058000+08:00","text":"他在跟我對話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:49.058000+08:00","text":"我到底講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:50.058000+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.058000+08:00","text":"他現在是在問我話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:52.058000+08:00","text":"到現在到底講錯什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:53.058000+08:00","text":"不一樣啊，你第七十六條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:54.058000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們尊重委員的發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:55.058000+08:00","text":"我在講話，我還在講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:56.058000+08:00","text":"你手上就有，還沒說完嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:57.058000+08:00","text":"我還沒講完，你在緊張什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:58.058000+08:00","text":"把它唸出來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:59.058000+08:00","text":"我還沒講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:00.058000+08:00","text":"等他講完就 5 點半了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:01.058000+08:00","text":"對不對，我還沒講完你在緊張什麼嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:02.058000+08:00","text":"等一下把它全部唸出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:03.058000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到，我現在就要講了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:04.058000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:05.058000+08:00","text":"不要緊張，對不對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:06.058000+08:00","text":"是你緊張不敢唸吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:07.058000+08:00","text":"我幹嘛緊張，我現在就要唸啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:08.058000+08:00","text":"條文唸出來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:09.058000+08:00","text":"367\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:10.058000+08:00","text":"不要拖嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:11.058000+08:00","text":"不要緊張！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:12.058000+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:13.058000+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:14.058000+08:00","text":"誰在緊張啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:15.058000+08:00","text":"以吳秉叡委員和蔡易餘委員共同提案的版本來看，有我們國民身分證統一編號，還有\n發證日期，還有戶籍地址分村（里）等等之類的，所以這個版本比較不一樣的地方就是增加了\n「發證日期」，而國民黨的版本再做精進，除了發證日期之外，也參考了總統副總統選罷法裡\n面有關於總統副總統連署的規定，在連署的過程裡面也要求要有身分證影本，我們認為，選舉\n總統跟副總統非常重要，不應該出現什麼抄名冊、去抄公會名冊，甚至有一些死人連署等等狀\n況；同樣的，在罷免也是一樣，我們也尊重公民的罷免權，但是我們也體會到，如同吳秉叡跟\n蔡易餘委員所提到這些相關的流弊，所以我們提出來的版本是要有身分證影本還有發證日期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:16.058000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，其實大家都有注意到在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題，當然，民進黨團說\n：你們急什麼！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:17.058000+08:00","text":"你們怕什麼！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:18.058000+08:00","text":"你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:19.058000+08:00","text":"我要跟大家報告的是，剛才\n我忘記是蔡易餘委員還是吳思瑤委員提到，像之前結束不久的謝國樑罷免案，事實上，謝國樑\n不但是過關，而且算是過關得滿漂亮的，所以其實我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:20.058000+08:00","text":"就不要怕罷免！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:21.058000+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:22.058000+08:00","text":"我在講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:23.058000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:24.058000+08:00","text":"給你們拍拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:25.058000+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:26.058000+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:27.058000+08:00","text":"我們是基於整體來考量，否則今天如果按照謝國樑經驗，我們\n幹嘛怕罷免啊！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:28.058000+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:29.058000+08:00","text":"我們沒有怕罷免，因為只要正面對決，所以我要講的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:30.058000+08:00","text":"不要怕罷免！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:31.058000+08:00","text":"我告訴你啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:32.058000+08:00","text":"請尊重一下發言委員好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:33.058000+08:00","text":"讓她繼續講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:34.058000+08:00","text":"這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:35.058000+08:00","text":"不會黨意凌駕民意，然後你想想看，我真的是不\n解啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:36.058000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘副書記長，我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:37.058000+08:00","text":"我這個版本不用身分證正反面影本！對嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:38.058000+08:00","text":"我們法案很多，大家都有不同版本，大家來討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:39.058000+08:00","text":"我那個版本，請看一下說明，說明欄你讀一下啦！","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:40.058000+08:00","text":"好，待會你來講！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:41.058000+08:00","text":"我剛才都沒有講錯，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:42.058000+08:00","text":"增加……小而且少用的獨特個資身分證發證日期……反正不是說……身分證正反面影\n本放進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:43.058000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，這個版本好不好？你說！你說！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:44.058000+08:00","text":"你說你共同提案的版本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:45.058000+08:00","text":"你提案的版\n本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:46.058000+08:00","text":"368\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:47.058000+08:00","text":"不用有正反影本……不是！不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:48.058000+08:00","text":"你這個提案的版本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:49.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得我的版本一般般。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:50.058000+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:51.058000+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:52.058000+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:53.058000+08:00","text":"在場人員：支持蔡易餘版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:54.058000+08:00","text":"我沒辦法支持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:55.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:56.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:57.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！好啦！好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:58.058000+08:00","text":"我們今天不要處理了，我再提！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:59.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:00.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:01.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:02.058000+08:00","text":"我再提一個！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:03.058000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:04.058000+08:00","text":"我們幫你提啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:05.058000+08:00","text":"不要你們幫我提！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:06.058000+08:00","text":"你們寫的不好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:07.058000+08:00","text":"你們把它當作垃圾的東西，你們因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:08.058000+08:00","text":"我們是完全不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:09.058000+08:00","text":"那個只是再加填入資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:10.058000+08:00","text":"所以蔡易餘委員，如果我是你，我就哭哭啦！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:11.058000+08:00","text":"我會覺得我自己很努力提出的版本，結\n果為了你們要去占領主席臺，其實那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:12.058000+08:00","text":"你們的版本就是不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:13.058000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號，我要再 recall 你們的記憶好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:14.058000+08:00","text":"怎麼記憶會這麼淺咧！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:15.058000+08:00","text":"記憶這麼淺，對\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:16.058000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號就是要討論吳秉叡的版本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:17.058000+08:00","text":"增加門檻……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:18.058000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 日是你這個版本喔！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:19.058000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，你把你版本、提案當垃圾……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:20.058000+08:00","text":"有……跟你的版本都有喔！對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:21.058000+08:00","text":"他很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:22.058000+08:00","text":"他已經撤案，但高金還是要排。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:23.058000+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:24.058000+08:00","text":"他撤案了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:25.058000+08:00","text":"我們撤案了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:26.058000+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講你撤案，你幹嘛撤案！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:27.058000+08:00","text":"你告訴我你幹嘛撤案！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:28.058000+08:00","text":"我們撤案不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:29.058000+08:00","text":"因為你們要占領主席臺嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:30.058000+08:00","text":"因為你們把 7 月 4 號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:31.058000+08:00","text":"都你在說，換人說了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:32.058000+08:00","text":"你講這麼久了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:33.058000+08:00","text":"我會留給你，王委員，沒關係，我一定會留給你講，但是我一定要還原，不然大家忘\n記了，我很害怕！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:34.058000+08:00","text":"讓大家把自己的意思講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:35.058000+08:00","text":"369\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:36.058000+08:00","text":"大家忘記了，講來講去，好像是我們不讓你們做什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:37.058000+08:00","text":"主席，你都只制止民進黨委員的發言，你為什麼不制止王鴻薇？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:38.058000+08:00","text":"你都只打斷民進黨委員的發言，你只打斷蔡易餘委員的發言！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:39.058000+08:00","text":"主席不公啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:40.058000+08:00","text":"下一個是誰發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:41.058000+08:00","text":"明明就是輪到張宏陸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:42.058000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們就是一定要黨派穿插發言，不可能每一個都這樣，麥玉珍講一下再換張宏陸\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:43.058000+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是這樣講的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:44.058000+08:00","text":"先讓主席說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:45.058000+08:00","text":"各位，我們協商，各個黨的意見我們都要聽，所以我們現在請民眾黨，因為第一輪他第一次\n發言，所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪發言。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:46.058000+08:00","text":"各黨團都要有第一輪發言，他只有一個人，尊重他！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:47.058000+08:00","text":"不要插話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:48.058000+08:00","text":"我們非常尊重他，他也可以 30 分鐘，這樣就超過 5 點半了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:49.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有那麼會講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:50.058000+08:00","text":"沒關係！感謝！感謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:51.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:52.058000+08:00","text":"我想要跟大家講，因為我們是要協調，大家要協\n商，的確，選罷法在實務上就是存有很多的問題，所以我們才要去修，因為大家覺得不公平，\n特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞，不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出修法，所以每一\n個人都知道這個是不完整的，包含死人連署或者抄樁腳名單等等，就是有這些亂象，進而嚴重\n的影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力，還有無視連署真實表達的意義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:53.058000+08:00","text":"選罷法中罷免制度的設計，應該就是汰除機制，而不是為政黨的服務，所以為了維護選罷法\n，我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本，但是我們是有幾個堅持，為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性，唯\n有透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序，才能避免連署的假象，還有就是讓罷免的制度更透明，所以\n我們台灣民眾黨秉持的就是理性、務實、科學的理念，對於選罷法的修正討論，我們不贊成盲\n目的提高罷免門檻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:54.058000+08:00","text":"從之前大家霸占主席臺的時候，我也是一直在表態這個問題，所以我要進\n來看到一堆人的時候，我也嚇到了，今天不是相干的人，怎麼都在這裡啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:55.058000+08:00","text":"370\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:56.058000+08:00","text":"什麼不相干？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:57.058000+08:00","text":"沒有不相干！有！有！尊重！尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:58.058000+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:59.058000+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:00.058000+08:00","text":"好，如果都相干大家都被罷免，因為大家都\n是委員嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:01.058000+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:02.058000+08:00","text":"因為大家都有機會被罷免，不是只有國民黨還是誰，大家都會有機\n會，因為每一個人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:03.058000+08:00","text":"你說得對，不相干的人也進來了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:04.058000+08:00","text":"那是陳智菡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:05.058000+08:00","text":"陳智菡！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:06.058000+08:00","text":"先讓麥委員講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:07.058000+08:00","text":"這些人都是助理來提供協助，不會不相干，但是他也是我的助理，也可以來，是主任\n嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:08.058000+08:00","text":"那……你說不相干，我跟你都不分區耶……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:09.058000+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:10.058000+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完，你們就打斷了，我是說不相干內政委員會的委員，畢\n竟平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員，很和樂，大家來討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:11.058000+08:00","text":"但是那天我進來，我自\n己也嚇到，怎麼那麼多不同委員會的委員都在這裡，我以為大家在辦什麼活動，是不是公聽會\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:12.058000+08:00","text":"大家同樂啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:13.058000+08:00","text":"我才知道你們來這邊開 party 嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:14.058000+08:00","text":"所以我後面才知道，我沒有參與到嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:15.058000+08:00","text":"因為我不敢\n進來，大家說你不要進來，等一下被他們打的話，沒有人保護你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:16.058000+08:00","text":"我就說，我不知道是怎麼回\n事，所以我就不進來，我只有簽名，然後等開會，但是後來就沒有開會。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:17.058000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子，所以我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻，我們從頭到尾都是這樣子的表態，因為\n對公民權利還有過渡的機制，民眾黨主張應該比照總統副總統選舉的連署程序，要求要有身分\n證，以保連署的真實性，這就是預防死人連署的亂象，也確保罷免程序的正當性，因為每一個\n委員都是一票一票選出來的，對不對？","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:18.058000+08:00","text":"我們選舉的時候，身分證都要去看清楚，否則對當選的\n人進行罷免的時候也很不公平，所以我們要求要公平，所以才不會亂用政治的工具。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:19.058000+08:00","text":"選罷法的修正關係到整體選舉體制的公正性，還有我們臺灣寶島的民主價值，我們呼籲大家\n，不管是任何人，因為大家都是選民選出來的，我們要理性的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:20.058000+08:00","text":"關於這個選罷法，大家要\n達成共識，看看怎麼樣比較好，因為不是只有國民黨被罷免，民進黨也可能被罷免，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:21.058000+08:00","text":"未來我們民眾黨很多立委如果是用選票選上來的，不是政黨票選上的，也有可能被罷免，對不\n對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:22.058000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望，每一個人不僅選舉公平，罷免也要公平，這樣子的話才不會好不容易花很\n多精神選上了，但是要罷免時卻有證件不足隨便簽連署的情況，這樣子的話對大家都不公平。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:23.058000+08:00","text":"也就是因為這樣，看看要怎麼樣提出修正，讓其更健全的制度，展現我們應有的效率，讓臺灣\n的選舉可以更加進步，我們希望是這樣，所以今天在此就是表達我們的立場，選罷法我們要去\n修改，但是門檻我們真的希望還是要嚴謹，對大家最公平，最有保障，這個就是我們的發言，\n謝謝大家。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:24.058000+08:00","text":"371\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:25.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員，充分表達民眾黨的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:26.058000+08:00","text":"申翰等一下，因為宏陸先舉手，請張宏陸委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:27.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得，修正選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身的利益是有相關聯的，我們當一個立法\n委員，利益迴避應該是最基本的，當修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下，我\n個人認為，其實應該要充分的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:28.058000+08:00","text":"剛剛聽了大家都這樣講，好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論，則我覺得我們應該就是在委\n員會可以充分的討論，而且我覺得，如果要修這個法，因為公投法也有連署的問題，我覺得我\n們應該一併討論，一併來處理，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:29.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:30.058000+08:00","text":"因此，有兩個理由，第一個，這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關，有利益迴避的問題，如果\n沒有充分的討論，我覺得很難對社會大眾交代，這是第一個；第二個，我認為要討論的話，連\n公投法也應該要一起討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:31.058000+08:00","text":"我記得上上屆在修公投法的時候，國民黨也是極力的反對\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:32.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣的情況之下，我們大家一起好好坐下來，把公投法也一起拿來檢視，把選罷法\n也一起拿來檢視，好好的討論，這樣子才不會立法院只修一個選罷法，卻把公投法放在那邊，\n那在臺灣就會變成連署的方式有好幾種，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:33.058000+08:00","text":"就剛剛大家講的，總統的有一種連署，選罷法的好像又跟總統的比較相似，然後公投法又要\n綁在那邊，我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法院所有立法委員可以做出來的事情，所以我在這邊\n跟主席報告，剛剛我聽大家好像都有說，好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:34.058000+08:00","text":"就充分討論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:35.058000+08:00","text":"在委員會要討論，所以我們就\n一起把所有跟選舉相關的法令拿出來大家好好討論，主席，我的具體建議是這樣，我們立法院\n針對跟自己有利益相關的案子來做這樣的處理，我覺得比較能夠說服大眾，好不好？主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:36.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝張宏陸委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:37.058000+08:00","text":"接下來請李柏毅委員，他現在離開，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:38.058000+08:00","text":"好，我們就請洪申翰\n委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:39.058000+08:00","text":"在此宣告，洪申翰委員發言完畢換沈伯洋委員，然後換蘇巧慧委員，然後吳思瑤委員，\n然後張雅琳委員，然後翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:40.058000+08:00","text":"好，洪申翰委員發言完畢，我們再請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:41.058000+08:00","text":"主席，我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣，這份國民黨的文宣是 2019 年的國民黨文\n宣，大家看它上面還印著朱立倫主席，還有朱立倫主席的簽名，大家看一下內容，我唸一下給\n大家聽，內容寫說：民進黨提案，公投連署需附身分證影本，這是侵害隱私，提高連署難度，\n下面還寫「全民護公投，民進黨殺公投」。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:42.058000+08:00","text":"國民黨的文宣裡面清楚得寫明，需要附身分證正反\n影本是在殺公投的事情，當年藍委強力杯葛公投法，2019 年的時候，甚至拿三秒膠封鎖門鎖，\n因為要強力阻擋公投法，所以我跟大家說，當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身分證影本的\n，後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議，還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議，所以將要\n附身分證影本的規定給拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:43.058000+08:00","text":"因此，最後在 2019 年 6 月修正的公投法版本裡面，就是不用附\n身分證正反影本的，因為那個時候不管是公民社會、公民團體或在野黨，包括國民黨，包括當\n時的時代力量，我相信也包括當時的黃國昌委員，黃國昌委員當時也是立法委員，在 2019 年的\n時候，都說要附身分證正反影本是會傷害人民的個資，提高連署的難度，這都是國民黨文宣的\n內容，我很少拿國民黨的文宣，我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣，我一個字一個字的唸，這就是\n國民黨文宣的內容，當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識，確實覺得身分證影本是有傷害\n372\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個資的疑慮，所以大家一起把它給拿掉了，我們民進黨團也同意了，當時的行政院也同意了，\n所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊「花」啦，當時大家就一起做成了這個共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:44.058000+08:00","text":"結果現在國\n民黨又拿著身分證正反面影本要來魚目混珠，民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身分證的發證\n日期，那不用把整份身分證的影像全部交出去啊，你只要在家裡把那個發證日期填上去就好，\n在上面不會有其他的個資、不會有整張身分證正反面影本的個資啊！","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:45.058000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨要做的事情很\n簡單，他就是要讓民眾不敢連署，現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:46.058000+08:00","text":"很重視被詐騙的問題對\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:47.058000+08:00","text":"國民黨咬準了民眾這個心理，知道如果要連署就要把身分證正反面影本交出去，民眾就\n算很想要罷免那個政治人物也不敢交出去，在連署這一關就把整個罷免給封殺掉，還不用去調\n到時候同意票的門檻喔，在更前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉，這是國民黨現在要做的事情啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:48.058000+08:00","text":"大\n家看這份文宣，主席，我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這份文宣、有沒有發到你臉書上我不知\n道啦，這個是有朱立倫主席在上面的啊，欸，徐宇甄委員看一下，朱立倫主席在上面還有簽名\n啊，當年大家用這個說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:49.058000+08:00","text":"拿一個文宣出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:50.058000+08:00","text":"喔，No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:51.058000+08:00","text":"你們可以來證實那時候是不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:52.058000+08:00","text":"我現在講很簡單，其實大家標準一致啦，當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院也從善如流，\n認為這樣做確實有疑慮，所以我們把它拿掉了，我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識\n，已經不是一個議題了；但沒想到在經過了 5 年之後，國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦，我要說怕大罷\n免潮應該是檢討自己，不要又去激怒人民啦，不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:53.058000+08:00","text":"結果現在國民黨跟民\n眾黨幹的事情是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:54.058000+08:00","text":"是我要繼續激怒你、而且我要把你的權利給沒收，用我過去說會侵害隱\n私的做法把你的罷免給沒收，就這麼簡單！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:55.058000+08:00","text":"然後現在要魚目混珠，身分證的發證日期跟身分證\n影本就是完全不一樣的事情，剛才王鴻薇委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情，裡面個資的密度跟\n強度是完全不一樣的事情，但又要魚目混珠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:56.058000+08:00","text":"拜託不要搞這一套，你們在閹割人民的權利，這\n就是閹割人民權利，這是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛，「侵害隱私」這四個字大家不會看不懂，\n為什麼當年是侵害隱私，5 年後的現在要附身分證正反面影本就不是侵害隱私？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:57.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:58.058000+08:00","text":"給個理\n由啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:59.058000+08:00","text":"當年民進黨後來也從善如流認為這有個資疑慮、有個資風險，所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛\n，2019 年 6 月最後的投票結果大家可以看一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:00.058000+08:00","text":"現在在野黨說這個總統副總統選舉罷免法，\n對不起，那個是 1995 年修的法律，那是法律，但是這麼簡單，我們最近在討論身分證正反面影\n本的問題是在 2019 年，為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:01.058000+08:00","text":"你可以結束讓我講了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:02.058000+08:00","text":"誒，我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:03.058000+08:00","text":"不是啊，他一直問我啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:04.058000+08:00","text":"我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:05.058000+08:00","text":"他一直要我給個說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:06.058000+08:00","text":"我沒有要給個說法，我講完嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:07.058000+08:00","text":"這樣子，鴻薇委員，讓他講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:08.058000+08:00","text":"373\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:09.058000+08:00","text":"讓我講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:10.058000+08:00","text":"好，我講完，為什麼、我只問一個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:11.058000+08:00","text":"才 8 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:12.058000+08:00","text":"儘快講完啦，OK 齁，你講你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:13.058000+08:00","text":"他講 22 分鐘，為什麼要求我儘快講完？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:14.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼當年修公投法的時候，行政院的版本有需附身分證正反面影本的時候，國民黨","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:15.058000+08:00","text":"誒，總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:16.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼當年不用這個理由？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:17.058000+08:00","text":"因為現在要被罷免\n的是國民黨的委員嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:18.058000+08:00","text":"就這麼簡單嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:19.058000+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:20.058000+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:21.058000+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:22.058000+08:00","text":"我們只要求一件事情啦，未來罷免……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:23.058000+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:24.058000+08:00","text":"誒，為什麼要打斷？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:25.058000+08:00","text":"要罷免許智傑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:26.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼要打斷？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:27.058000+08:00","text":"我們只希望很簡單……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:28.058000+08:00","text":"讓我說好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:29.058000+08:00","text":"接下來罷免可能有藍有綠、可能也有白啦，但我只要求一件事情，不要閹割人民的權\n利、不要侵犯人民的隱私，就這麼簡單啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:30.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:31.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼國民黨\n現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私、甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:32.058000+08:00","text":"個資的問題後面\n就是詐騙的問題，這樣子一個法案為什麼國民黨要強推？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:33.058000+08:00","text":"毫無道理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:34.058000+08:00","text":"就是政治考慮嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:35.058000+08:00","text":"不要\n再講什麼民主了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:36.058000+08:00","text":"閹割人民權利的政黨、兩個在野政黨聯合起來，還講什麼民主？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:37.058000+08:00","text":"就這麼簡\n單嘛，就這一張文宣就講完了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:38.058000+08:00","text":"這是誰做的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:39.058000+08:00","text":"這民黨做的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:40.058000+08:00","text":"這是國民黨做的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:41.058000+08:00","text":"拜託國民\n黨不要跟人民對幹啦，怕被罷免的話就檢討自己，而不是檢討人民的權利啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:42.058000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨幹的\n事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利、閹割人民的權利啦！拜託！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:43.058000+08:00","text":"我就講到這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:44.058000+08:00","text":"對不起，我的時間不到王鴻薇委員的二分之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:45.058000+08:00","text":"那是哪位委員的助理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.058000+08:00","text":"那個請他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:47.058000+08:00","text":"哪一個助理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:48.058000+08:00","text":"這是我的助理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:49.058000+08:00","text":"對，我想大家直播可以調帶子就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:50.058000+08:00","text":"他是拍我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:51.058000+08:00","text":"他拍我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:52.058000+08:00","text":"不是，申翰，我們維持秩序啦，你就調帶，到時候調你的直播帶就好了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:53.058000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:54.058000+08:00","text":"我把它講完……\n374\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:55.058000+08:00","text":"助理儘量不要進到我們議場這邊來，站在後面就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:56.058000+08:00","text":"好，以上。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:57.058000+08:00","text":"主席，我們把這道理講在這個地方，要講道理大家來講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:58.058000+08:00","text":"不要拍我們來幫你衝流量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:59.058000+08:00","text":"要講道理大家來講，但請國民黨不要硬幹、不要跟人民為敵、不要閹割人民的權利。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:00.058000+08:00","text":"好謝謝洪申翰委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:01.058000+08:00","text":"翁曉玲委員第一次發言，我們請翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:02.058000+08:00","text":"兩套標準，綠能你不能，不能拍吳思瑤，只能拍王鴻薇跟許宇甄嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:03.058000+08:00","text":"那不一樣啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:04.058000+08:00","text":"好，我想要首先謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:05.058000+08:00","text":"重點是羅智強他拍人家還說謊，羅智強說謊，重點是羅智強說謊，他明明有拍卻說他\n是在自拍，是羅智強說謊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:06.058000+08:00","text":"重點是他說他在自拍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:07.058000+08:00","text":"不是不可以拍，是他說謊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:08.058000+08:00","text":"OK，輪我說話了吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:09.058000+08:00","text":"大家已經發表完意見了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:10.058000+08:00","text":"我要謝謝洪申翰委員，剛剛有提到\n2019 年的時候，行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法，我必須說你們真是有先見之明，知\n道之後的選舉環境極其惡劣，出現了很多罷免案的連署提議還有各方面提議人的連署都有造假\n的這些問題，這也是為什麼我們這次要提出這個選罷法，法律本來就是會與時俱進，要隨著時\n空環境的轉變來滾動式修正檢討，如果說當時 2019 年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案你們\n認為它是具有正當性，畢竟我們這個任何一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:11.058000+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:12.058000+08:00","text":"對，是，因為當時你們也許不覺得那時候的選舉環境、罷免的環境極其惡劣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:13.058000+08:00","text":"你幹嘛假設我們覺得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:14.058000+08:00","text":"我們就拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:15.058000+08:00","text":"可是現在改變了，現在確實出現許多連署人填的資料是假的，造假的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:16.058000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:17.058000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:18.058000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:19.058000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:20.058000+08:00","text":"每個黨都有，你們的更厲害、更嚴重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:21.058000+08:00","text":"如果你們不擔心的話，為什麼你們要反對現在\n的修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:22.058000+08:00","text":"沒有這個道理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:23.058000+08:00","text":"如果你們認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權，那麼所有的連署書\n出去都必須要是真實的，為什麼要擔心附上國民身分證正反面影本還有填上發證日期會有什麼\n侵害隱私？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:24.058000+08:00","text":"因為侵害隱私權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:25.058000+08:00","text":"現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了罷免連署書然後說以致於造成詐騙的猖狂，會有詐騙\n的問題都是民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團，還好意思在那裡講我們現在寫個什麼連署書\n375\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n然後填一些資料就有可能會洩漏個資、會造成詐騙。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:26.058000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，那總統副總統選罷法為\n什麼你們不提出來修正咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:27.058000+08:00","text":"就來修啊！對呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:28.058000+08:00","text":"我要講的就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們要保護的是整個罷免案\n具有正當性，從一開始的提議到連署，每一關每一個環節都是符合真實性的，我們不容許有任\n何造假的連署書，更何況填上連署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:29.058000+08:00","text":"否則怎麼會知道到底寫上去\n的身分證字號是真是假、出生年月日是不是正確、戶籍地址是不是正確？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:30.058000+08:00","text":"所以附上國民身分證\n的正反面影印本不是正好可以讓相關的機關便於佐證，同時也可以讓募集連署的單位更好可以\n去辨別哪一個是真假，這個是有意義的修法，不是沒有意義的修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:31.058000+08:00","text":"民進黨常常都是昨是今非\n，以前你們所提出來的法案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:32.058000+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:33.058000+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:34.058000+08:00","text":"至少我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:35.058000+08:00","text":"你都想笑了，翁曉玲自己都想笑了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:36.058000+08:00","text":"你們就是昨是今非，以前你們的提案就可以，現在我們的提案就不行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:37.058000+08:00","text":"你自己都要笑出來","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:38.058000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要笑？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:39.058000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得很合理啊，因為時空環境改變，我們不知道民進黨政府執\n政之後整個的選舉罷免環境越來越糟糕啊，越來越多的弊端出現，然後中選會也不查清楚，都\n是個案的選擇判斷，所以當然要修法修得清清楚楚，保護個資難道不是連署單位的責任嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:40.058000+08:00","text":"他\n今天募集到連署人的身分證影本當然要保護好，如果大家有疑慮不敢去寫，那就代表也質疑這\n個連署單位本身是有問題的，所以就整個法的邏輯、法理來講是絕對站得住腳的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:41.058000+08:00","text":"所以我說我\n很謝謝洪委員，剛剛你提出了 2019 年當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:42.058000+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:43.058000+08:00","text":"為什麼拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:44.058000+08:00","text":"因為大家覺得有這樣的疑慮，就拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:45.058000+08:00","text":"是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛，就這麼簡單啊，你們還是考慮到你們自己\n的問題啊，如果你們認為是正確的，為什麼當時不堅持咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:46.058000+08:00","text":"這是很有趣的，為什麼你當時不堅\n持咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:47.058000+08:00","text":"沒有水準的委員太多了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:48.058000+08:00","text":"我們今天是就事論事，今天既然是朝野協商，我們就好好的\n把這個條文看看哪個地方有問題，我們來修嘛，如果談不出個結果來，那我們就進入到下一個\n階段啊，不是嗎？來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:49.058000+08:00","text":"我就是比你大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:50.058000+08:00","text":"又來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:51.058000+08:00","text":"重點就是這一句啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:52.058000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:53.058000+08:00","text":"不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:54.058000+08:00","text":"又不討論了，又來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:55.058000+08:00","text":"來、來、來，各位委員，現在我宣告一件事，因為麥玉珍委員現在已經離席，也就是民眾黨\n的代表已經離席了，所以實際上我們現在的協商可能明顯不會達成共識……\n376\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:56.058000+08:00","text":"他離席是他自己的權利他不要了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:57.058000+08:00","text":"但是沒關係，我跟你講，現在我們還是繼續討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:58.058000+08:00","text":"對啊，我們可以繼續討論，但是討倫沒有結果啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:59.058000+08:00","text":"對啊，我們還是可以一直討論、一直討論，奉陪啊，看是今天要討論到幾點啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:00.058000+08:00","text":"我們討論的就是各黨意見的表達，所以我歡迎各位表達意見，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:01.058000+08:00","text":"可是大家要充分的把意見表達完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:02.058000+08:00","text":"主席，會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:03.058000+08:00","text":"所以因為民眾黨麥玉珍委員不在現場，所以我們今天沒辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:04.058000+08:00","text":"哪裡規定不在場就不能繼續協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:05.058000+08:00","text":"主席，我都還沒有發言，主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:06.058000+08:00","text":"哪一個議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場就不能再協商？……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:07.058000+08:00","text":"我先這樣講而已，但是我還是希望……所以我說請大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:08.058000+08:00","text":"這就是國會擴權法案，一模模一樣樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:09.058000+08:00","text":"黃國昌走人就把協商打包、黃國昌走人就把協商打包……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:10.058000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:11.058000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:12.058000+08:00","text":"如果這樣下去就真的要散會了，所以我希望還是聽聽大家的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:13.058000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:14.058000+08:00","text":"我們既然在協商了，這是因為他個人自己要離開我們，我們也沒辦法限制他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:15.058000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:16.058000+08:00","text":"你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:17.058000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤，你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:18.058000+08:00","text":"你有點禮貌好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:19.058000+08:00","text":"我不能詢\n問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:20.058000+08:00","text":"現在不是主席在講話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:21.058000+08:00","text":"我在詢問，他為什麼要插話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:22.058000+08:00","text":"我在詢問主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:23.058000+08:00","text":"現在換你，我現在沒講話啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:24.058000+08:00","text":"是你剛剛在插話好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:25.058000+08:00","text":"你為什麼要插話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:26.058000+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:27.058000+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:28.058000+08:00","text":"這就是民進黨的民主嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:29.058000+08:00","text":"所以現在我們的討論是各黨意見的表達，各位委員你們充分表達意見，我沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:30.058000+08:00","text":"別人不能詢問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:31.058000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤真的超沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:32.058000+08:00","text":"甚麼叫民主？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:33.058000+08:00","text":"這就是沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:34.058000+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:35.058000+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:36.058000+08:00","text":"OK，我再重申，大家聽清楚沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:37.058000+08:00","text":"因為有民眾黨的委員他已經……因為我們協商一定要三\n377\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個黨都在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:38.058000+08:00","text":"沒有這個事……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:39.058000+08:00","text":"有這個事啦，你不要再跟我爭了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:40.058000+08:00","text":"所以我說不會討論出協商的結果，沒有人簽字嘛，所以我\n現在是告訴各位，我繼續讓各位發言，我們現在的發言就是各位委員你們自己意見的表達，我\n充分尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:41.058000+08:00","text":"麥玉珍會不會回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:42.058000+08:00","text":"所以我不會那麼早宣告散會，我們還是等到……就是看大家待會兒……我們等一段時間，我\n待會兒聯絡他，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:43.058000+08:00","text":"他跟我說他有行程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:44.058000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們待會再跟他確認。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:45.058000+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:46.058000+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:47.058000+08:00","text":"拜託主席，下次跟民眾黨的代表說一下，什麼工作大家都很重要，希望聽一下結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:48.058000+08:00","text":"你跟他拜託一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:49.058000+08:00","text":"因為大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:50.058000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以會議詢問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:51.058000+08:00","text":"我會議詢問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:52.058000+08:00","text":"因為您剛才的裁示我有一點不理解，您\n的裁示是說不管我們講到……我們還有很多意見要表達，但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經\n離席了，所以你預判今天協商沒有結論，你已經預設了這個前提，所以現在您的意思是民眾黨\n跟你們……民眾黨是預謀好，他走了就讓今天沒有結論，你是說民眾黨預謀好了？","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:53.058000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我要很實事的告訴大家，因為我看到他離開了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:54.058000+08:00","text":"民眾黨預謀好了，只要他離開，今天就沒有結論，是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:55.058000+08:00","text":"黨團協商就是這樣，我們沒有辦法達成結論啊！","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:56.058000+08:00","text":"這樣要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:57.058000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:58.058000+08:00","text":"那我們再排協商，主席，我們再排協商可以嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:59.058000+08:00","text":"我們再排協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:00.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣好離譜！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:01.058000+08:00","text":"明天我們再……那好了，就這樣我們就宣告，我來做宣告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:02.058000+08:00","text":"主席玩弄程序啊！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:03.058000+08:00","text":"怎麼某一黨離開就不能再討論！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:04.058000+08:00","text":"各位，你不要再表達意見了齁？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:04.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:05.058000+08:00","text":"還要不要表達意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:05.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:06.058000+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:06.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:07.058000+08:00","text":"坐在這裡不表達意見是坐在這裡幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:07.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:08.058000+08:00","text":"所以我請沈伯洋委員表達意見啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:08.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:09.058000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這樣，那他走了，然後我們在這邊……\n378\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:09.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:10.058000+08:00","text":"表達協商的意見，也就是對這個法案的意見啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:10.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:11.058000+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:11.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:12.058000+08:00","text":"因為民眾黨先離開了，但是國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識，這也是很重要的\n事情，如果今天只是在程序上因為他不在，但如果我們兩黨能夠達成共識的話，這也是一個很\n重要的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:12.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:13.058000+08:00","text":"或許我們能夠延續下去的話，那麼明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急\n著開，因為這表示我們有延續性，可能麥委員回來之後，過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還\n可以繼續協商，我的建議是這個樣子。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:13.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:14.058000+08:00","text":"所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去……剛剛其實有滿多共識，第一個共識應該就是我\n感覺王委員跟翁委員應該都滿想加入民進黨的，一直在看我們的法案，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:14.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:15.058000+08:00","text":"我覺得他很支\n持以前我們的一些想法，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:15.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:16.058000+08:00","text":"但是我必須要講幾個點，第一個就是當然很感謝主席讓我們\n有協商的機會，但我還是必須要講，我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好，第一個就\n是在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講提高罷免門檻這件事情，但是其實顯然\n剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發，大部分都是在講有死人連署啦、有這個作假什麼等\n等，其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的問題，就是大家可以看到以往有那麼多造假的連署，這\n個大部分……不是大部分，都是國民黨發動的，那個比例很高。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:16.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:17.058000+08:00","text":"但我覺得重點是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:17.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:18.058000+08:00","text":"重點是\n它被發現了，譬如說發動罷免陳致中有 46%不合格、發動罷免高閔琳有 49%不合格，這個數據\n在這邊的意思是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:18.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:19.058000+08:00","text":"就是我們發現它不合格，如果我們發現得了它不合格的話，那為什麼用\n這個當做理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:19.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:20.058000+08:00","text":"除非我們覺得他們發現得太慢了，他們\n發現的程序通常要好幾天，我們現在想要縮短公務人員的作業時間，所以我們要修改一些規定\n，這樣聽起來才合理嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:20.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:21.058000+08:00","text":"很多人說我們要弄這個影本，可能是為了怕說他們有偽造，就是冒名\n，但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪，所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法，其實跟這件事情沒有\n關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:21.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:22.058000+08:00","text":"這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的，跟你要不要附發證日期，要不要附影本，沒有什\n麼關係，它的因果根本就不存在嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:22.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:23.058000+08:00","text":"既然不存在的話，為什麼要用這個理由來修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:23.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:24.058000+08:00","text":"所以就回到下一個層次，就是當你今天要附身分證影本的時候，既然這一個不是理由，那你\n真正的理由是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:24.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:25.058000+08:00","text":"就是讓罷免變難嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:25.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:26.058000+08:00","text":"讓罷免變難這件事情，我們可以來看一下，因為剛剛\n麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場，因為今天大家都一直在講歷史，所以我們還是講一下，我們可以\n從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:26.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:27.058000+08:00","text":"但是我們可以看到 2013 年的黃國昌委員曾經說：「有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可\n怕的事情，所以在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜，每一個提議人跟連署人，要求你把身分證\n正反面影本交出來……你會擔心，那擔心的效果是什麼」，所以，這個很明顯我們可以看到，\n這個 2013 年的黃國昌委員，現在可能在家裡的地下室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:27.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:28.058000+08:00","text":"而且這是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:28.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:29.058000+08:00","text":"這是在做罷免吳育\n昇的那個時候，這個罷免當時還是我跟他一起弄的，所以我對他這一個論述非常的熟悉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:29.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:30.058000+08:00","text":"379\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n換言之，此案從頭到尾其實跟什麼死人連署，或是連署作假一點關係都沒有，這部分本來在\n法律上就可以直接規範，在程序上也可以被發現，所以最重要的是，當你把這個東西加進去，\n不管你今天是要附發證日期，還是要附身分證影本，你就是實質在讓門檻增加，你就是實質讓\n罷免變得不容易。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:30.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:31.058000+08:00","text":"罷免作為一個政治性的權利，這是一個動態的過程，我們臺灣人民已經熟悉了民主，其實也\n慢慢地在熟悉罷免這件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:31.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:32.058000+08:00","text":"如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去，第一個，這個會對政\n治權利的行使造成傷害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:32.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:33.058000+08:00","text":"第二個，就像剛剛洪委員提到的，以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗，現在詐欺\n很猖獗，這一些東西拿出來之後，很有可能會被詐欺集團拿去利用，更不要講如果大家對於所\n謂的個資外洩可能有研究的話，其實照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案，你利用發證日期來做\n審核，這件事情聽起來是合理的，但是通常來講，如果你今天要取得一個人的個資，假設我今\n天有他的條碼，通常我需要再一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊，那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換\n照日期，所以其實發證跟換照日期，在資安上面比大家想像得重要非常非常多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:33.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:34.058000+08:00","text":"而這個也不是\n以前就這樣，而是這兩、三年才會變得那麼重要，這是因為跟我們內部的資安機制有關係，這\n部分我就不多說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:34.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:35.058000+08:00","text":"所以我還是覺得，我們今天既然想要協商，想要聚焦，我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情\n就是，其實這一個法案，它就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案，它的目的就是這樣，它其實非\n常的明確，因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:35.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:36.058000+08:00","text":"既然這樣的話，我們就是要討論，我\n們要不要限制人民的罷免權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:37.058000+08:00","text":"如果你不要限制人民的罷免權，那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:37.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:38.058000+08:00","text":"接下來我還要講一下就是，我覺得法案寫得有點粗糙，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:39.058000+08:00","text":"因為發證日期在一個版本有\n，一個版本沒有，但我們可以看到，我剛才稍微翻了一下，譬如說在 162 頁，這一個應該是許\n委員的版本，它在右邊這個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期，但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期，不\n知道為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:39.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:40.058000+08:00","text":"那是不是傅崐萁的版本複製過來，但我記得你的版本是比較早的，所以就是有些\n文字上的謬誤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:40.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:41.058000+08:00","text":"然後再來就是最後一個第九十八條之二「利用他人個人資料，未經同意偽造、假冒提議、連\n署者」，這個條文問題非常多，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:41.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:42.058000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們的法律本來就有規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:42.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:43.058000+08:00","text":"第二個，它的第\n二行叫做「未經同意偽造」，我在這邊要稍微科普一下，偽造的定義就叫做未經同意，所以偽\n造就是偽造，不需要「未經同意偽造」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:44.058000+08:00","text":"然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署，這其實是三種不\n同的行為，是不是要等量以觀？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:44.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:45.058000+08:00","text":"這個我看司法院其實已經有提到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:45.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:46.058000+08:00","text":"所以其實有太多，太多的事\n情，應該要在委員會討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:47.058000+08:00","text":"當然我猜可能等一下又要講說，那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開什麼等等之類的，我要告訴大\n家，當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候，就算今天討論了，我們的討論會直接被停止。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:47.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:48.058000+08:00","text":"這是\n昨天才發生的事情，我一句話都沒有講到就直接被停止討論，其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太\n多次這樣的事情，所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候，趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:48.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:49.058000+08:00","text":"最後，我還是要 echo 宏陸委員講的，我覺得非常重要的一點就是，這個是涉己事項，既然這\n380\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個案子會影響到現在的立法委員，我覺得第一個，要三思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:49.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:50.058000+08:00","text":"第二個，我覺得我們更應該要去注\n意的，就跟釋字第 499 號講的類似，就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟立法委員的報酬、待遇等等之\n類的，應該要從次屆起實施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:50.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:51.058000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話，人民的信\n賴利益也會被破壞，那麼就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用，但這個東西也沒有在我們現\n在討論的這個法案的內容裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:51.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:52.058000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講的就是，第一個，它的理由是不夠充分的；第二個，它的文字上也有很多疑\n慮，那更不要講說刑責的部分定的不明確；再加上又有自我迴避的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:53.058000+08:00","text":"我認為至少我們在這\n邊必須要審慎以對，這個協商應該要拉長一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:54.058000+08:00","text":"我簡單講到這邊，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:54.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:55.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:55.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:56.058000+08:00","text":"林倩綺委員第一輪發言，我讓你先講一下，下一位就請蘇巧慧委員，然後\n再來張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:56.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:57.058000+08:00","text":"主席、各位立院同仁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:57.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:58.058000+08:00","text":"我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商，大家都因為是尊重民主政\n治當中，我們對於人民行使各項權利，包括我們今天在這邊討論的，有關於罷免權這樣的一個\n民主性，我們都相信它是神聖的，所以我們在這邊討論，應該就是為了讓這樣一個權利的行使\n更為嚴謹、更為神聖。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:58.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:59.058000+08:00","text":"所以，在選罷法當中是我們可以在這樣一個概念上來做推動的，所以剛\n才大家有一些討論，那當然也有一些從歷史緣由來談論到我們今天所處的現狀，那我們是不是\n可以就現在我們已經經歷過那麼多個階段所碰到的問題跟狀況，來做一個實質的、真正比較針\n對事情的討論。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:59.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:00.058000+08:00","text":"所以，國民黨這邊所提出來的法案，也是因為先前我們看到一些現象，所以我們希望整體來\n講更嚴謹，國民黨的版本是希望我們在罷免權利的行使上能更為細緻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:00.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:01.058000+08:00","text":"如果民進黨認為在這個\n行使權利的過程當中，會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響，那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式\n，或許在相關的法規裡面提出來，你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮，或有什麼實際可以解決這個\n部分的一個考量，那我想這個部分或許在針對我們一直僵持不下的身分證，或者是身分證相關\n的一些狀況，能夠找出一些解方，那我想這樣應該是對我們在協商或是對人民在行使權利上是\n比較正面的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:02.058000+08:00","text":"以上這是我在第一輪的發言，謝謝。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:02.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:03.058000+08:00","text":"謝謝林倩綺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:03.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:04.058000+08:00","text":"我們現在請蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.862000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.862000+08:00","text":"今天變成是歷史課，大家都要來回憶我們之前的印象，我覺得如果我們要\n開始回憶的話，其實不能夠只有從 7 月 4 號那一天委員會當天混亂的現場開始回憶起，大家應\n該要更往前，從 5 月份的時候國民黨提出的擴權法案，造成了這麼多的社會反彈，在這樣的狀\n況，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.862000+08:00","text":"甚至是從今年的 2 月換屆之後，人數的多寡交替之後，立法院呈現一個什麼樣的\n狀況，大家開始來回憶起嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:27.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.862000+08:00","text":"所以從 5 月的時候發現，國民黨提的法案，就算社會的大多數聲\n音，民進黨的委員跟他說，我們有意見，我們覺得這個有問題，社會上甚至是跟他們講說，這\n個過去你們提的版本，民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本，大家都不同意，不是多數，所以\n沒有過，他還是像現在今天這樣說，沒有啊，你們民進黨就是有提出啊，我們一直跟他講說，\n可是後來沒有成啊，就沒有過啊，所以表示我們也尊重當時朝野討論的結果，最後沒有過，他\n就不管，他就是一直 repeat，重複 repeat，這個臺詞是一模一樣到現在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:28.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.862000+08:00","text":"好了，結果 5 月的時候\n381\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，你看到二十幾號的時候，哎呀，坐在我對面的沈伯洋委員，真的，你當時辛苦了，從臺上這\n樣跌下來，真的是，真的是幸好，看看剛剛講話的時候，都還是邏輯清楚啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:29.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.862000+08:00","text":"當時到底是被誰\n推下來、丟下來這樣的狀況，你看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:30.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.862000+08:00","text":"到現在人家都還是說你是\n自找的，這個實在是喔……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:31.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.862000+08:00","text":"又扯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:32.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.862000+08:00","text":"再扯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:33.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.862000+08:00","text":"實在是覺得，真的你看，所以我們真的是要回憶一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:34.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.862000+08:00","text":"所以，當時的立法院氣氛就是\n，如果國民黨想要的法案就是要按照國會的人數多數強行通過，逕付二讀、快速通過、過水式\n的通過，那當然，後面他如果再提出任何的法案，我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:35.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.862000+08:00","text":"好，那我們來看 7 月 4 號，7 月 4 號是一個什麼樣的氛圍？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.862000+08:00","text":"就是在 6 月 29 號的時候，拆樑山\n海行動正式宣布已經超過第二階段的連署數了，所以罷樑又進入一個新的階段。哇！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.862000+08:00","text":"經過了被\n這麼多人，10 萬人上街抗議的國民黨，再加上看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來，\n連兩階段的連署都已經過了，這時候的國民黨會想要什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:38.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.862000+08:00","text":"當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發\n生嘛，所以當然是要加嚴罷免的制度，怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:39.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.862000+08:00","text":"就是把大家不想拿出來的身\n分證影本，把它加到條件裡面最好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:40.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.862000+08:00","text":"所以你看看他們的版本，就是這樣嘛，所以 7 月 4 號當\n然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:41.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.862000+08:00","text":"好了，以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了，沒有想到竟\n然是逕付二讀，就直接跳到由國民黨召開協商，就是今天的會議啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:42.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.862000+08:00","text":"好，那我們把這個歷史還\n原了，大家記憶還原，不要只採取片段式的記憶，要回憶就通通想起來，要回憶就大家從頭到\n尾來說，不要只有講這種片段式的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:43.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.862000+08:00","text":"好，那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了，那為什麼現在新的、今天提出來的兩個版本裡面，\n只有國民身分證影本和發證日期？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.862000+08:00","text":"大家現在有沒有在實務上看到，我們為了要防止詐騙的狀況\n會加上什麼樣的條件？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:45.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.862000+08:00","text":"其實有啊，蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了；你要去辦信用卡的時\n候，也有加上身分證的換證日期了，這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的、增加信用的條\n件嘛，所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:46.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.862000+08:00","text":"因為他不用把身分證留在別人那裡，他\n只要在填寫的時候多填一項資料就好了，跟直接附上身分證影本整個圖件完全不一樣嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:47.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.862000+08:00","text":"所以\n完全不一樣的狀況下，吳秉叡跟蔡易餘當時的版本是加換證日期，是符合現在的狀況的，跟國\n民黨現在提出來的附身分證影本是不一樣的嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:48.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.862000+08:00","text":"所以主席，我在這裡跟你講道理，這才是剛剛\n人家講說立法院是好好講道理的地方，我現在就跟你講道理啊，講道理是社會現行的狀況加換\n證日期跟加身分證影本是完全不同的狀況，在實務的層次上面，也完全已經得到不同的共識性\n了嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:49.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.862000+08:00","text":"好，那如果今天要認真討論條文，那我們到底要改到什麼程度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:50.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.862000+08:00","text":"我們可以討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:51.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.862000+08:00","text":"主席，你今\n天是做一個協調會的主席，現在民眾黨走啦，他說他有行程，走了；國民黨，欸，噹噹，那我\n不曉得今天的協商，等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:52.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.862000+08:00","text":"主席，我們的國會影像都在錄……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.862000+08:00","text":"國會影像都在錄嘛，後面電視臺也在錄嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:54.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.862000+08:00","text":"後面還有……張雅琳委員，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:55.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.862000+08:00","text":"382\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:56.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.862000+08:00","text":"那你現在講的結論，你現在講的結論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:57.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.862000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，我是在描述我等一下對你的結論的期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:58.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.862000+08:00","text":"是，會、會、會，我待會會宣告，但是我們還是讓委員講一下，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:59.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:00.862000+08:00","text":"我現在是說，你的結論大家萬眾期待是一個公平合理的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:25.862000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:26.362000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:36.933429+08:00","text":"我想我們今天討論的選罷法草案，其實是關乎臺灣的民主制度，這是一個\n非常嚴肅的事情。","quality":0.108},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:37.233429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.233429+08:00","text":"因為我想，你問任何一個人，要參與連署的時候，必須把你的身分證拿出來\n，這個難度絕對是非常非常高的，而且這絕對會造成詐騙的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:53.533429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.962000+08:00","text":"如果你現在把「詐騙」還有\n「身分證」輸入在 Google 裡面，你就會看到其實已經有 2 萬 1,000 個刑事判決，所以這絕對是\n非常嚴重的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:09.262000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.690571+08:00","text":"如果我們貿然的把這一個身分證加上去的時候，不但會威嚇我們的民眾，沒\n有辦法來行使他的罷免權，也會讓我們的整個法制上面，可能會造成未來詐騙橫行的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:28.990571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.419143+08:00","text":"再來，第二個部分就是，剛剛伯洋委員其實也有說了，最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨，但\n是國民黨提出這個，我也覺得是蠻可笑的啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:44.719143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:03.290571+08:00","text":"而且我們如果要討論這麼嚴肅的問題，其實我們\n應該要開公聽會諮詢專家學者的意見，好好的來請益，如何保障民眾的罷免權的同時，也可以\n避免造假的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:03.590571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:41.590571+08:00","text":"可是我們這一次，並沒有經過任何的公聽會，來討論有關身分證的問題，我\n自己認為，其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議，例如我們可能可以用電子連署\n，或者是戶政機關協助來受理等等，都是我們可以討論的重點，而不是匆匆的，沒有在充分討\n論的狀況之下就通過選罷法，我覺得這是對民主最大的傷害。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:41.890571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:43.890571+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:44.190571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:46.476286+08:00","text":"再來請王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:46.776286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:52.776286+08:00","text":"主席，我等了很久才等到，感謝主席給我們這個機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:53.076286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:14.790571+08:00","text":"我覺得今天要協商選罷法，大\n家要互相尊重，看看問題出在哪裡，要怎麼去改進，而不是我們民進黨說出來就不行，國民黨\n說出來就可以，這樣不好，這樣不是叫做協商，大家尊重彼此的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:15.090571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:24.804857+08:00","text":"我們國家要進步就是之\n前覺得好的要怎麼保存下來，不好的我們要怎麼去改進嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:25.104857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:39.104857+08:00","text":"像現在，大家的爭議點就是，一方主張要附身分證影印本，另外一方認為身分證影印本的個\n資，等於剝奪百姓罷免的權利。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:39.404857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:54.262000+08:00","text":"因為有很多人想要罷免，不過因為要影印身分證，他會考慮，\n所以這樣是去剝奪百姓想要做的事情，說實在的我們這樣也不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:54.562000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:09.419143+08:00","text":"我看到剛剛有一黨的委員\n先跑了，後來另外一黨的委員也跑光，我覺得大家要互相尊重，因為協商的過程，1 個小時真的\n講不完啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:09.719143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:13.147714+08:00","text":"重要的是有人一個人講 30 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:13.447714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:31.447714+08:00","text":"我也感謝主席，主席給我們大家表達的機會，因為我們選罷法的門檻，像剛剛說的，\n我們不能自肥我們自己，要在下一任才適用，也沒有人這種修法方式的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:31.747714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:46.033429+08:00","text":"我覺得說，我們今\n天應該要來問主席，今天的結論，你剛才說的是不有結論，沒有結論的話，我要請教主席，我\n們會再開協商嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:46.333429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:50.047714+08:00","text":"還是明天院長來主持就結束了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:50.347714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:55.776286+08:00","text":"這是最重要的，這一點我要請教我們主席。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:56.076286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:00.362000+08:00","text":"383\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:00.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:03.519143+08:00","text":"好，我們謝謝王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:03.819143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:14.676286+08:00","text":"思瑤幹事長跟易餘，培瑜還沒講啦，因為培瑜還沒講，我們就請\n培瑜講，培瑜講完我再來做宣告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:14.976286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:16.119143+08:00","text":"來，請培瑜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:16.419143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:17.562000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:17.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:25.290571+08:00","text":"既然要上歷史課，我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點，也幫主席複習。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:25.590571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:39.019143+08:00","text":"大家都\n說身分證交出來有資安的問題，剛剛美惠委員也說了，交出身分證，大家會害怕，我要提醒大\n家，為什麼會害怕？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:39.319143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.462000+08:00","text":"小的時候，我爸爸說「不要碰政治，因為會被國民黨點名做記號」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:12.762000+08:00","text":"以前\n那個時代，大家對於國民黨的威權統治，如果都還記得，所以我要提醒大家，現在所有人在擔\n心的是，當我交出身分證，就是剛剛洪申翰委員說的，當我就是被認證，我是要反對某一個政\n黨的人，請問，民主機制如何運轉下去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:13.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:52.490571+08:00","text":"現在國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了，但是他們就算在這裡，我也不認為他們願意\n承認，威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒，還在非常多臺灣人民的心中，所以他們今天做出這\n個非常荒謬的條文，我要說的是，不是只有條文本身有資安的問題，而是它的背後如何想像臺\n灣人民把自己的身分證交出去，他們如何對臺灣人民交代。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:52.790571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:15.647714+08:00","text":"再來，大家最近都有看到 NHK 紀錄\n片在講個資被濫用的問題，還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題，請問國民黨或是民眾\n黨的委員，你們自己要不要在這個議題上，對臺灣人民有所交代？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:15.947714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:59:51.090571+08:00","text":"如果，如同剛剛思瑤委員有提醒主席，也請主席等一下要做出裁示，如果今天的發言跟協商\n只是一個過水，根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質協商，那我要再次提醒主席，你\n身為今天協商的主席，你必須要去呼應、回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮，不要讓我們陪\n你坐在這邊聊天講故事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T09:59:51.390571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:15.962000+08:00","text":"我們很願意主張我們的論述，我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨跟民眾\n黨的委員相關的疑慮，即使他們完全不考慮，但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席，或是\n陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:16.262000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:18.262000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:18.562000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:23.419143+08:00","text":"我想今天很感謝大家，大家都撥空來參與。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:23.719143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:00:33.147714+08:00","text":"思瑤，我先講完，因為大家\n一直在問我，現在要不要做結論，巧慧在那邊也一直在笑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:00:33.447714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:09.733429+08:00","text":"我跟你說，這樣啦，我跟各位講，\n我現在一定要依立法院職權行使法來做出我的裁示，因為我們黨團協商，今天不是逐條討論，\n現在是黨團協商，一定要三個黨達成共識才能做成結論，現在民眾黨先離開了，我也不能去制\n止他，說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商，國民黨黨團代表也離開了，所以我們很難達成共\n識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:10.033429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:32.890571+08:00","text":"依照立法院職權行使法第七十一條，沒有辦法達成共識，其實我剛才就可以宣布散會了，\n但是我已經承諾大家，我要聽大家把意見表達完畢，所以大家都已經有把自己的意見表達了，\n現在再說下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:33.190571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:36.619143+08:00","text":"他們剛剛一直點我的名字呢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:36.919143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:41.490571+08:00","text":"但是現在再說下去，就不會達成共識啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:41.790571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:44.362000+08:00","text":"對啊……然後他都說要我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:44.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:01:57.519143+08:00","text":"沒有啦，明天……我現在跟你講，我還是依照我的職責，我要作出以下宣告：有關本日之協\n商會議，本席擬具結論如下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:01:57.819143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:01.533429+08:00","text":"主席，你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:01.833429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:10.976286+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，不要，我已經打算說我只到那個……\n384\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:11.276286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:16.133429+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:16.433429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:20.719143+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商有委員會的審查……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:21.019143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:24.162000+08:00","text":"還有兩次以上的朝野協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:24.462000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:28.176286+08:00","text":"因已無法有協商結果，本次會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:28.476286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:32.476286+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:32.776286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:42.204857+08:00","text":"本次會議各黨團代表均無法達成共識，由本黨團向院長請求進行黨團協商，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:42.504857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:46.504857+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:46.804857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:55.376286+08:00","text":"今天就是過水，今天就是演戲，今天就是虛晃一\n招，林思銘，你是歷史的罪人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:55.676286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:02:57.390571+08:00","text":"今天就是過水……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T10:02:57.690571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:03:00.262000+08:00","text":"今天協商就是過水啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T10:03:00.562000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:03:03.990571+08:00","text":"你們就是要過水，然後禮拜五……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:03:04.290571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:03:06.290571+08:00","text":"我宣布現在散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T10:03:06.590571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T10:03:07.733429+08:00","text":"散會（18 時 13 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}