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我們請部長陳部長"},{"start":23.002,"end":51.124,"text":"部長我想在討論這個農民退休儲金條例之前我想我們還是要review一下就是說其實從蔡英文總統她一直大力推動的各項保障農民的政策其實從我們就是三保一金我們的健康保險還有農業保險還有植栽保險還有農民退休儲金三保一金"},{"start":51.964,"end":68.37,"text":"這是我們從過去農委會然後到農業部陳其仲主委一直到陳巨基部長我們在努力的所以我覺得今天如果我們常在說哇我們要來修正農民退休處境好像民進黨沒在做事錯了"},{"start":70.683,"end":93.485,"text":"我們這個三保一經我們努力很久我覺得我們應該把這個前提跟大家說也因為有我們當時候的1比1的補助所以才有今天大家在討論覆蓋率的問題要1比1.5所以我認為說我們都要把前提講清楚否則農民會忘記"},{"start":96.474,"end":120.817,"text":"會忘記所以其實我們這一次覆蓋率我們在討論覆蓋率覆蓋率不足不到五成所以大家認為說這應該是這個對比補貼的問題如果有更多的誘因可以讓我們的政府補貼升到1.5倍民眾的誘因會更高我們農民的誘因會更高所以才有這樣的一個討論的依據"},{"start":122.578,"end":141.304,"text":"所以我認為說其實我們努力那麼久從三保一經過去根本不可能過去根本不可能啦我們的健康保險然後再來農業保險然後再植栽保險過去我們的農民看到勞工他有植栽我們農民在大陸會卡"},{"start":149.987,"end":171.78,"text":"然後送醫都沒有辦法有所謂的植栽可是現在可以了然後還有我們有一些農作物現在只要保險在我們的這個農損的部分有相對應這個過去也沒有然後還有我們農民的健康保險所以其實我們一直在說的"},{"start":175.728,"end":178.402,"text":"我們希望農民更好因為農民很辛苦看天吃飯"},{"start":181.294,"end":207.521,"text":"我都不希望說農民為了我們這個土地做這些事情但是永遠被遺忘的一群可是在蔡英文政府上任之後一直到現在賴清德總統我相信我們沒有忘記這個區塊我們也一直在做只是我們的速度好像跟不上他們的期待那這個就問題來了"},{"start":210.407,"end":219.949,"text":"我們要怎麼做才能讓他們能夠符合他們的需求好 我們現在來談農民退休儲金"},{"start":222.704,"end":240.382,"text":"1對1跟1對1比51.5這樣的部分就是說我們的政府補貼是1.5還是1相對補貼這個我們到底增加多少錢現在是15.5億增加15.5億就增加15.5億那15.5億我們預計可以增加多少覆蓋率"},{"start":245.336,"end":257.903,"text":"沒有 我們15.5億是現在已經在提繳的因為現在已經在提繳的 我們要對等增加嘛對 好 那現在15.5億 那如果我們增加到1.5倍"},{"start":259.605,"end":274.211,"text":"那增加多少可能再增加8億左右增加8億那預計增加8億會有多少增加的覆蓋率我們應該這麼講從老保65歲以下而且是合格的人如果都保的話是22.3萬人"},{"start":276.552,"end":289.382,"text":"那現在是將近10萬9萬多9萬2千多人是15億嘛所以如果22萬都保的時候那增加的就是大概將近35億左右所以"},{"start":290.56,"end":313.608,"text":"你認為如果說全部都保進來是要增加35億是用我們1.5這樣的一個對等要增加35億那你認為我們提高了1.5有可能全部都進來嗎應該不會不會那預計可以增加多少我們在退休除菁我們有階段性目標我們希望說"},{"start":315.307,"end":328.559,"text":"這在117、118年能夠達到60%到65%那如果說現在1.5%如果說是成案的話我們希望預期是至少可以到70%到80%所以你們不反對嗎我們從來沒有反對說這樣的方式不好"},{"start":337.099,"end":363.457,"text":"對那現在有什麼爭議我們現在考慮的你們都不認為是不對的你們都不認為說這個部分不好而且是確實可以提高覆蓋率我想我們怎麼樣怎麼樣的提高政策的導入政策的誘因委員提的版本是1比1.5這是一個方式那我們也有另外想到一個方式就是總而不變之下我們的負擔多一點如果100 100都講100"},{"start":365.558,"end":374.867,"text":"然後以後他繳80我們繳120好那你提的政策增加多少預算那個大概6億6億跟8億會差很多嗎那哪一個效率會更多現在的15.5億大概差一半"},{"start":381.033,"end":395.913,"text":"那另外我們希望說不一定是二選一啦可能是可以合在一起部長好啦你們行政院農業部你們有方案那請問你們有提出嗎還在討論還在檢討"},{"start":398.016,"end":418.817,"text":"我們已經跟院長室那邊約時間了我們會先跟院長做專案報告如果方向確定的時候我們就會立即提出我們的版本那這個版本完了以後會經過包括因為這需要額外的經費嘛還要主計總處還要其他的單位去表示意見所以你們的版本大概是增加5億"},{"start":419.96,"end":434.476,"text":"不是 我們的版本有幾個一個就是委員的版本也許可以跟我們的版本做某個程度的融合啦那這個融合可能要經過行政院這邊初步的支持我們才能夠精算下去"},{"start":435.515,"end":457.655,"text":"所以你認為這是可以有調和版的對不對行政院有調和版那有一個調和版也可以增加我們的覆蓋率我們117年118年到達了60%到65%這樣的標準是不是調和版也是可以而且經費不用有那麼多的壓力是這樣嗎"},{"start":458.576,"end":487.197,"text":"是 因為以15.5億來講齁其實比起其他的重大建設 它的金額並不大啦齁 但是你講到重點了真的 部長你講到重點了今天 如果我們今天一億兩億在這邊論農民心在糖血啦是 他說齁 你一個大型建設 幾百億都在做啊啊你對我農民 你是一億兩億 讓我在那裡斤斤計較"},{"start":489.495,"end":494.041,"text":"這個其實是一個痛所以如果今天"},{"start":495.799,"end":516.567,"text":"我們站在執政的角度 我覺得我們就把它很清楚的講出來我們要到達117年 118年的60%到65%的覆蓋率我們要提出什麼樣的政策 大聲講出來不是真的問題是農民可以有信心嗎 農民有要加入我們這個農民退休儲金嗎我們有辦法達到讓他們安心嗎"},{"start":522.324,"end":541.175,"text":"是這個目標不是一億兩億三億四億這樣的問題而是要有一個完整的制度讓他們安心這才是最重要今天有很多是因為不安心否則為什麼農民退休儲金是比以前更好"},{"start":542.335,"end":558.849,"text":"以前沒有撥補啊以前沒有啊那是在蔡英文總統的時候我們提了這個農民退休儲金的制度有了撥補好那應該大家會一窩蜂想要進來可是為什麼還是覆蓋率沒有到達"},{"start":560.525,"end":574.727,"text":"過五成的部分 我們就要去想原因沒安心了所以當你要再提出版本 要做調和版你一定要有一個原則安心好 那現在這個版本什麼時候要提出"},{"start":575.677,"end":594.812,"text":"我想我們應該在順利的話應該在這個禮拜可以跟行政院做報告這個禮拜會跟行政院做報告然後報告以後如果說我們的想法是被支持的時候還是說需要調整我們可能也會立刻的去做調整然後再重新抱怨"},{"start":596.012,"end":619.183,"text":"所以我們的目標就是下個會期會送進來下個會期就是農民退休儲金制度的修正版我們也希望說連老農津貼的修正牌付的東西也一併送進來因為他不能單獨看這兩個要一起來看這個就是我要問你第二個問題今天這個牌付的部分"},{"start":620.191,"end":625.18,"text":"之前部長一直把他綁在八大福利津貼"},{"start":626.953,"end":650.199,"text":"這個是不是我把我們我們提出我們的版本是那現在我要問你的是現在你說的我們要一併討論我們現在可以排除跟他們脫鉤嗎對我們可以嗎我們我以農業部來講我們希望脫鉤當然當然我們希望脫鉤嘛但是我現在問你有沒有辦法脫鉤沒有那那不是要行政院要決定啊"},{"start":651.038,"end":657.944,"text":"因為不是我能決定我的希望說所以那你要你在這個禮拜跟行政院長談的時候你要一併談啊因為這兩個本來都是農民最重要的這是我們一向的立場就是說因為農民有他的特殊的產業所以我們希望說能夠適度的脫鉤啊但是"},{"start":671.477,"end":693.571,"text":"那你要一併談啊所以在這個老農今天你之前一直說你都支持你都支持可是因為他永遠把我們綁在八大社福津貼嘛好那既然現在要談我們農民退休儲金制度這本來就要一起談啊老農今天本來就要一起談啊在我們的排富的部分嘛那你要跟院長說這兩個要一起讓農民安心"},{"start":698.674,"end":723.011,"text":"這農民安心才能真正達到我們調和板的一個處理的機制好不好部長 你在這一次就是在整個排富條款一定要把那個整個拉高否則這個已經完全讓老農沒有辦法去認同我們政府說現在還有爸爸親親在在就有爸爸了 大家也把你排除掉是不是 部長好不好"},{"start":726.834,"end":751.523,"text":"可不可以啦我立場表達得非常清楚我們希望能夠幹流助理就是這個禮拜嘛 你就說是我們我們壓力的嘛 我們逼你的嘛沒錯 那你要去跟院長報告啊你在這個禮拜的報告是兩個一起提出來報告並行因為這是我們老農非常重要的一個依據我們農民非常重要的依據所以兩個一起跟行政院長報告你說這是"},{"start":753.544,"end":772.435,"text":"我們的委員在經濟委員會要求的然後跟院長報告看怎麼處理我們一定要一次而且那個差太多了所以拜託有而且喔如果由你來做發動不一定因為我們腦農今天的解掉"},{"start":773.456,"end":798.237,"text":"排富的解掉 會帶動八大福利 其他的七大福利基金 今天也解掉了這樣直接做工程 你知道嗎 部長這個禮拜喔 兩個一起報告結果怎麼樣 我們隨時要知道看到底是你們的問題 還是院長的問題嘛這樣我們就知道 要去找誰說啊要不然我們現在也不知道原因在哪裡"},{"start":799.656,"end":826.033,"text":"那我們每次提案就說 喔 還一下 要討論 要討論可是我們回去對農民來講 都沒辦法交代再拜託部長 這個禮拜就是我們的農民退休儲金制度我們的調和板 要怎麼讓我們的覆蓋率可以達到117年 118年我們的60%到65%然後我們的老農津貼 我們的排付條款一定要解掉"},{"start":827.214,"end":844.981,"text":"不能在這500萬一定要解掉要以現在的比例甚至每年都要做檢討我們的整個物調太快了嘛這個物調太快了 農民沒有辦法接受啦所以這個再拜託我們的部長 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，在討論農民退休儲金條例之前，我想還是要review一下蔡英文總統一直大力推動的各項保障農民政策，就是三保一金：健康保險、農業保險、職災保險還有農民退休儲金。這三保一金是從過去的農委會到農業部、從陳吉仲主委到陳駿季部長一直在努力的，所以我覺得今天有人常說修正農民退休儲金條例好像代表民進黨都沒做事，錯了！這三保一金我們努力很久，我覺得我們應該把這個前提跟大家說，也因為有我們當時的1比1補助，才有今天大家所討論的覆蓋率問題、要爭取達到1比1.5，所以我認為我們都要把前提講清楚，否則農民會忘記。我們這次討論覆蓋率，對於覆蓋率不足、不到五成，大家認為應該是對比補貼的問題，如果有更多誘因，包括政府補貼升到1.5倍，對民眾的誘因會更高、對農民的誘因會更高，所以才有這樣的討論依據。","我們從三保一金以來努力那麼久，過去根本不可能啦！有了健康保險，再來是農業保險，然後又有職災保險。過去農民看到勞工有職災保險，自己在烈日下曬到昏倒、送醫卻沒辦法有所謂的職災保險，可是現在可以了。此外有一些農作物，現在只要保險，發生農損就有相對應的保障，這在過去也沒有，然後還有農民的健康保險。其實就如我們一直在說的，我們希望農民更好，因為農民很辛苦，看天吃飯，我們都不希望農民為這塊土地做那麼多事情之後，卻永遠是被遺忘的一群，從蔡英文政府上任之後，一直到現在的賴清德總統，我相信我們沒有忘記這個區塊，也一直在做，只是我們的速度好像跟不上他們的期待。那問題就來啦！我們要怎麼做才能符合他們的需求？","現在來談農民退休儲金1對1跟1對1.5這個部分，政府補貼1.5還是1相對補貼？預算到底要增加多少錢？現在是15.5億元嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：增加15.5億元。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是增加15.5億元嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：增加15.5億元，預計可以增加多少覆蓋率？"],["陳部長駿季：15.5億元是現在已在提繳的，對於現在已經在提繳的，我們要對等增加。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，現在是15.5億元。如果增加到1.5倍，會增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：可能要再增加8億元左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：增加8億元？"],["陳部長駿季：對，再增加8億元。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果增加8億元，預計會增加多少覆蓋率？"],["陳部長駿季：應該這麼講，就勞保而言，如果65歲以下且合格者都投保，是22.3萬人。現在將近十萬是九萬兩千多人，投保的預算是15億元，如果22萬人都投保，增加的大概就是35億元左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你認為如果全部都保進來要增加35億元，是因為用1.5這樣的對等比例計算出要增加35億元，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那你認為提高到1.5之後，有可能全部都納進來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會？那預計可以增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們針對退休儲金有階段性目標，希望在117年至118年覆蓋率能夠達到60%到65%。如果現在的1.5方案成案的話，我們的預期是至少可以達到70%至80%。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們不反對嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們從來沒有反對或說這樣的方式不好。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！那現在有什麼爭議？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在考慮的，我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們都不認為是不對的、你們都不認為這個方式不好，而且確實可以提高覆蓋率，那我們在爭議什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，問題在於怎麼樣提高導入政策的誘因，委員提的版本是1比1.5，這是一種方式，但我們也另外想到一個方式，就是在總額不變之下，我們負擔多一點，例如原本分別繳100元、100元，也就是都繳100元，以後就是農民繳80元、我們繳120元……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那你所提的政策會增加多少預算？"],["陳部長駿季：大概6億元左右，差不多一半。"],["陳委員亭妃：6億元跟8億元會差很多嗎？哪一種效益會更高？"],["陳部長駿季：不，是6億元跟現在的15.5億元相比，這樣大概差一半。","另外，我們希望不一定是二選一，可能可以合在一起……"],["陳委員亭妃：好啦！部長，你們行政院農業部有方案，那請問有提出嗎？還在討論、還在檢討？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經跟院長室約時間，會先向院長做專案報告，方向確定的時候，我們就會立即提出我們的版本，這個版本完成之後，因為需要額外經費，所以還要由主計總處與其他單位表示意見。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們的版本大概是增加5億元？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們的版本有幾個要點，委員的版本也許可以跟我們的版本做某個程度的融合，但這樣的融合可能要經過行政院這邊初步支持，我們才能精算下去。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你認為是可以有調和版的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我認為應該要有調和版。"],["陳委員亭妃：行政院會有調和版？"],["陳部長駿季：應該要有調和版。"],["陳委員亭妃：有一個調和版也可以增加覆蓋率，117年、118年可以達到60%至65%這樣的標準，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：調和版也可以，而且經費上不用承受那麼多壓力，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，因為以15.5億元來講，比起其他重大建設，金額並不大，但是……"],["陳委員亭妃：你講到重點了！真的，部長講到重點了。如果我們今天在這邊論1億元、2億元，農民心會淌血啊！他們可能說，一項大型建設數百億元都在做，對農民卻為1億、2億斤斤計較，這其實是一個痛。今天站在執政角度，我覺得就要很清楚地講出如果要在117年、118年達到60%至65%的覆蓋率要提出什麼樣的政策，而且要大聲說出不是錢的問題，而是農民能不能有信心、農民是否要加入農民退休儲金、我們有沒有辦法讓他們安心？是這個目標！不是1億、2億、3億或4億這樣的問題，而是要有一個完整的制度讓他們安心，這才是最重要的。今天有很多問題是出於不安心，否則農民退休儲金其實比過去更好啊！以前沒有撥補，是在蔡英文總統的時候提了這項農民退休儲金的制度、有了撥補。那應該大家會一窩蜂想要進來，可是為什麼覆蓋率還是沒有達到5成？我們就要去想原因，因為不安心啊！所以當你要再提出版本，要做調和版，你一定要有一個原則，就是安心。請教這個版本什麼時候要提出？"],["陳部長駿季：順利的話，我想應該在這個禮拜可以跟行政院做報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個禮拜？"],["陳部長駿季：會跟行政院做報告，報告以後如果我們的想法有被支持還是需要調整，我們可能也會立刻的去做調整，然後再重新報院。"],["陳委員亭妃：這來來去去的時間大概要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的目標就是下個會期會送進來。"],["陳委員亭妃：下個會期？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是農民退休儲金制度的修正版。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也希望連老農津貼的修正排富這些也一併送進來，因為它不能單獨看，這兩個要一起來看。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個就是我要問你的第二問題，有關排富的部分，之前部長一直把它綁在八大福利津貼……"],["陳部長駿季：這不是我綁，我們提出我們的版本，但是行政院在考量的是……"],["陳委員亭妃：現在我要問你的，你說我們要一併討論，我們現在可以排除跟他們脫鉤嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部來講，我們希望脫鉤。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然我們希望脫鉤嘛，但是我現在問你有沒有辦法脫鉤？"],["陳部長駿季：那是行政院要決定啊，因為不是我能決定，我是希望……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你在這個禮拜跟行政院長談的時候，你要一併談啊，這兩個本來都是農民最重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：這是我們一向的立場，因為農民有特殊的產業……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們希望能夠適度的脫鉤，但是……"],["陳委員亭妃：那你要一併談啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，行政院考慮的是另外一個方法。"],["陳委員亭妃：你之前一直說你都支持、你都支持，可是因為他永遠把我們綁在八大社福津貼嘛，既然現在要談農民退休儲金制度，這本來就要一起談、老農津貼本來就要一起談啊！在我們排富的部分，那你要跟院長說，這兩個要一起讓農民安心，農民安心才能真正達到我們調和版的處理機制，部長，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力取得行政院支持。"],["陳委員亭妃：你在這一次排富條款一定要把整個拉高，否則這已經完全讓老農沒有辦法去認同，政府現在還說500萬、「凊凊彩彩」就500萬了，大家都把你排除掉了，是不是？部長，好不好？可不可以啦？"],["陳部長駿季：我的立場表達得非常清楚，我們希望能夠……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是這個禮拜嘛，你就說是我們給你壓力的嘛、是我們逼你的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：但是決定權不在我啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，那你要去跟院長報告啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會講。"],["陳委員亭妃：你在這個禮拜的報告是兩個一起提出來報告，並且因為這是我們老農非常重要的一個依據，我們農民非常重要的依據，所以兩個一起跟行政院長報告，你說這是委員在經濟委員會要求的，然後跟院長報告看怎麼處理，我們一定要一次做，而且那個差太多了，所以拜託了。而且如果由你來做發動，不一定會因為老農津貼的解掉、排富的解掉，而會帶動其他七大福利基金也解掉了，這樣你是在做公德耶，你知不知道？部長！"],["陳部長駿季：我了解啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：這個禮拜喔，兩個一起報告，結果怎麼樣？我們隨時要知道，看到底是你們的問題還是院長的問題，這樣我們就知道要去找誰說啊，要不然我們現在也不知道原因在哪裡，我們每次提案，你們就說緩一下，還要討論、要討論，可是我們回去對農民都沒辦法交代。再拜託部長，這個禮拜就是農民退休儲金制度的調和版，要怎麼讓我們的覆蓋率到117年、118年可以達到60%到65%，然後我們的老農津貼、排富條款一定要解掉，不能限在這500萬，一定要解掉，要以現在的比例，甚至每年都要做檢討，我們整個物調太快了嘛、物調太快了，農民沒有辦法接受，所以這個再拜託部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。","現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}