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.825,"text":"那還有各位媒體記者們大家好我們今天的協商的主題是針對我們本院委員傅昆齊等16人還有許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那我們召集這個來黨團的一個協商我們先介紹我們今天列席的官員"},{"start":1872.869,"end":1875.611,"text":"內政部部長劉世芳中選會陳朝健副主委其他請參考列席名單"},{"start":1902.108,"end":1921.743,"text":"好我們沈伯陽委員也到場還有張雅玲張雅玲的張啊工廠張抱歉工廠張張雅玲委員好來好那我們就進入今天的這個協商"},{"start":1926.001,"end":1955.785,"text":"那我們本次協商的主題我剛才提過就是傅崐萁委員等16人以及許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那麼經第一會期第二十二次會議決定進覆二讀並按交付黨團協商這次本法案的內容那我想我們就先請國民黨的這個提案的代表許宇甄委員做提案的說明好不好"},{"start":1956.677,"end":1957.118,"text":"先進行說明。"},{"start":1965.681,"end":1993.299,"text":"主席還有各位列席的各位官員還有各位委員大家好我想這一次針對這個選罷法的這個修正案主要是因為在這個選罷法的這個過程中我們發覺很多的這個連署有一些亂象包括一些錯假連署、超明測連署或者是死亡連署這些都有這個我們發覺很多這樣的問題甚至很多都是筆跡相同可是礙於現在的選罷法"},{"start":1994.019,"end":1994.299,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具"},{"start":2011.44,"end":2012.5,"text":"罷免法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2031.786,"end":2036.83,"text":"公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案第12條規定公投聯署要提供身份證的正反面引本讓我們的這個理由是為了要防止虛偽聯署的情勢那也避免破壞公民投票的一個公正性"},{"start":2058.828,"end":2083.266,"text":"希望大家都能關注有關的相關問題以上,謝謝我想我們提案的委員講完之後我們先請行政部門做事實的一個答覆然後再請各黨表示意見我想今天又有委員到場王國威委員我們還有今天列席的還有我們"},{"start":2085.472,"end":2103.925,"text":"法務部參事廖江憲、司法院民事廳劉素如、劉法官針對法條修正,請內政部劉司芳部長表達看法。還是要等各黨?"},{"start":2112.389,"end":2134.673,"text":"委員先講好了再請行政部門來做意見的表示請吳思瑤幹事長謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思明委員我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了應當有的程序的正義我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期"},{"start":2137.834,"end":2166.994,"text":"原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案那個時候有涉及門檻的提高那後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查上個會期的7月份發生了這個委員這個會議是臨時換的一些我認為在台灣國會的這個史上都創下非常糟的惡例所以以至於那一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查"},{"start":2169.916,"end":2186.81,"text":"徐委員的案子撤了,現在是新的案子,現在是由副官席委員的案子跟徐委員是新版的提案,然後在院會是用近乎二讀的方式,也就是近乎二讀,那就內政委員會就沒有審查,直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。"},{"start":2189.412,"end":2217.008,"text":"那上一周在協商總預算的時候我們赫然發現居然韓國瑜院長召集的院長level的朝野協商在協商總預算的那個協商居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法所以在那一次上周韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑"},{"start":2218.072,"end":2241.423,"text":"那今天算是導回正確的程序回到由提案的政黨國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有的正常的程序但是呢我也發現了一個問題也想問一下主席選罷法這麼重要憲法所賦予憲法17條賦予人民選舉罷免創制覆決的權利這麼慎重"},{"start":2247.346,"end":2248.948,"text":"主席,您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時是一小時就要結束嗎?我們希望能夠你的協商"},{"start":2265.864,"end":2267.466,"text":"到五點半就是一小時"},{"start":2287.104,"end":2311.152,"text":"這是第一件事尊重我的發言尊重我的發言所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言因為這麼重要進夫二讀委員會已經沒有討論這是憲法第17條規範的人民的基本權利當然要好好討論當然我們是希望他應當沒有進夫二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論那第二件事情我也覺得"},{"start":2313.117,"end":2336.768,"text":"很有疑惑那為什麼今天的黨團協商還沒有進行還沒有召開我們剛剛居然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午三點鐘的朝野協商已經把第二案第一案是總預算要持續的來討論第二案就是選罷法"},{"start":2337.888,"end":2353.017,"text":"所以我們非常質疑,難道韓院長認為林思明委員、國民黨團、召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎?就預先又跳過了程序,預先排了明天就要討論選罷法"},{"start":2355.934,"end":2369.462,"text":"是韓國瑜院長不信任林思明今天會議主席的協調能力嗎?還是說國民黨的朋友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢?"},{"start":2370.854,"end":2396.259,"text":"只排一小時然後這麼重要既負二讀又關人民基本權利委員會已經沒有時間沒有機會討論了今天來預設一個小時就要結束這場協商甚至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論明天草野協商再討論然後下一關是什麼就是禮拜五院會就可以表決了"},{"start":2397.779,"end":2421.124,"text":"是這樣嗎?我想問一下這個程序啊,主席。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答"},{"start":2424.525,"end":2451.524,"text":"那我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員你的發言但是我希望大家不要再去講題外話就針對今天的重點這五個條文大家發表你的看法因為這樣講下去我講很實在話這樣一直講下去意見都會重複我想我們現在協商就大家希望形成有一致的意見我們就達成協商沒有辦法達成協商當然我們就意見不一致主席我想繼續謝謝您的說明謝謝來"},{"start":2453.786,"end":2474.991,"text":"今天是第一次這個屆期討論選罷法朝野的委員可以坐下來討論這是第一次我們當然希望他是在委員會 內政委員會但是禁服二讀就到今天所以我希望主席能夠理解會議才剛開始我是第一個發言的委員不要說大家又講重複的話不要扯太多"},{"start":2476.321,"end":2502.527,"text":"來吧,我們才剛坐下來所以說我以歷次選罷法的幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告2015年修選罷法將政黨補助的門檻由5%下修至3.5%那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員他在委員會審查三次"},{"start":2503.973,"end":2530.109,"text":"委員會沒有共識後續交付朝野協商協商的次數是兩次這是同樣的選罷法2016年選罷法也修了就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃國昌他要求他提案完全罷免不需要有門檻那一次"},{"start":2531.482,"end":2553.202,"text":"那一次也是陳其邁召委他委員會討論五次協商兩次同樣是選罷法在2023年針對公職候選人的排黑條款排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委員委員會討論的次數是七次"},{"start":2554.871,"end":2580.271,"text":"協商的次數是兩次我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案選罷法立次的修正都有委員會充分討論討論三次討論五次討論七次也有充分在朝野協商各協商兩次所以我希望說"},{"start":2582.028,"end":2605.251,"text":"我真的很衷心希望剛剛斯敏委員其實我對斯敏委員非常的尊重那您所說的不是只是過水你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履行讓大家討論的這個前提那如果今天讓大家能夠好好的討論我援引過去選辦法修正花了這麼多次的討論的時間我非常期待"},{"start":2606.112,"end":2625.412,"text":"不要預設了一個立場那可能思明委員您應該要做的一件事情是也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長跟他說相信林思明你會好好如您所說的好好的在黨團協商的歷程過程當中讓委員充分表達意見"},{"start":2626.853,"end":2654.104,"text":"韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場會認為今天的協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報告無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持的黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論否則外界也非常疑惑韓院長明天就預先排了"},{"start":2655.086,"end":2666.391,"text":"朝野協商要處理選罷法那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會的處理我不希望發生這樣的事情這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的"},{"start":2670.98,"end":2697.188,"text":"職權行使不應當是快轉不應當是過水不應當是強度關山所以我先起了這個程序上立次修選罷法在委員會層級充分討論在協商的次數也充分討論的過去修法的經驗我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋友們提案的委員們"},{"start":2698.348,"end":2723.937,"text":"不要為快而快不要為修而修不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人民的權利這是程序上的發言我先報告到這裡那稍後實質法案的內容我也有很多準備要討論的內容再請主席給我時間謝謝謝謝吳世耀委員那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員"},{"start":2725.838,"end":2736.794,"text":"林倩琦委員、翁曉琳委員、蘇巧慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪森翰委員、張宏祿委員"},{"start":2739.084,"end":2739.425,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":2760.819,"end":2760.939,"text":"韓國瑜院長"},{"start":2786.298,"end":2813.491,"text":"排明天同樣四點半然後也一樣排三點半三點那一樣是要延伸這個選罷法那我們會覺得很奇怪的就是說有這麼急嗎因為我們知道說如果今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣但是如果協商沒有成就換院長排那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論他就先排了明天的協商"},{"start":2814.315,"end":2834.956,"text":"那我們可以預測那就是禮拜五就是要表決了那就是今天明天禮拜五那有這麼急嗎?這個涉及到了人民選舉罷免創制覆決這個最重要的公民參與政治的一個權利這東西多討論多用多一點時間讓大家討論又會怎樣嗎?"},{"start":2836.86,"end":2846.35,"text":"那何必急著好今天這個協商今天黨團全商明天院長協商禮拜五表決然後就說結束了三讀通過了"},{"start":2848.002,"end":2872.641,"text":"現在以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高以後光是要呈案都非常的困難讓罷免的權利大概從此以後看到罷免就很困難了那我們就要回到這件事的本源就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎?如果這個門檻是不合理的"},{"start":2873.802,"end":2898.141,"text":"不合理到了說你請柴要走人走人出來要去打罷免的人都會罷免那在基隆市長這一次的罷免我想那就罷免就會過啦後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛那可以證明說現在這一個制度所定的這個罷免的門檻你看有些人會被罷免成功但大部分是罷免失敗"},{"start":2899.558,"end":2922.375,"text":"大部分是失敗所以他的門檻是高的沒有那麼簡單可以去在現行的制度之下所以我們現在要討論選罷法然後把罷免人盤大幅增加而且這個增加勒是讓未來連成案都產生困難因為你知道你要去連署罷免然後你要繳交身分證的影本給這個罷免團體"},{"start":2925.336,"end":2951.298,"text":"那你身份證原本要給人以現在大家對於各自的保護我們要把身份證交給人這個是何其嚴重的事情所以我們認為說在罷免的時候這個沒有必要把他的門檻拉到了說你連讓他成案難度會高到了這樣的一個程度我們還是覺得說大家在程序上三思我們多一點討論"},{"start":2952.833,"end":2960.217,"text":"今天協商不成主席你可以再排一次協商啊你可以下禮拜再排協商啊那何必這樣啪啪啪哇連三天連三關那你們國民黨藍白的用意這樣看起來就很清楚了啊你們就是要禮拜五要用人數的優勢強行表決通過"},{"start":2971.391,"end":2995.519,"text":"對阿看起來你們目的都這樣嘛你就直接講嘛那我覺得我們如果今天協商主席可以說我們今天協商不成我下禮拜還要排那我會去跟韓院長說阿他明天先不要排這件事我林思敏有信心我可以好好的溝通我今天排完我下禮拜再排讓真的對關心選罷法的人都可以來這裡讓他暢所欲言讓他講話"},{"start":2997.339,"end":3013.909,"text":"這還是民主的真諦嘛尤其我們現在要行使的這個修法是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的最基本的權利我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候是不是在討論上再多一點程序的討論"},{"start":3015.844,"end":3040.275,"text":"主席你現在讓我們說,我們大家都覺得我們要表達我們的意見,而且我們每一個人,然後我要跟主席講,你不能說,主席你不能講說誰在重複發言,因為縱使是同樣一句話,不一樣的人說他就代表著不同的民意基礎,我們每一個人縱使是區議會跟部分區議會,部分區議會也是有他的選票,他是政黨票,"},{"start":3041.115,"end":3047.113,"text":"都有他的民意基礎你不可以去說誰講了誰又講重複了所以後面的人就不能講"},{"start":3048.171,"end":3049.492,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。」．"},{"start":3071.305,"end":3071.505,"text":"我還沒第二輪啦我第二輪會講"},{"start":3088.633,"end":3108.27,"text":"我第二輪會講別的東西那我現在對於我對於今天的協商我提出的尊重啦我在尊重我在跟主席共同啊各位真的我希望這樣子大家不要把同樣的事情你今天第一輪講這樣第二輪又講這樣第三輪又講這樣這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助"},{"start":3116.226,"end":3134.532,"text":"主席在跟我講重複發言的問題我現在要講的重點是因為你剛才問我我回答你我是用你第二輪發言不要重複我講的重點不是說不要說誰是重複發言每個人都有代表每個人的意思我第二輪我會離開我會講"},{"start":3136.833,"end":3136.973,"text":"衛生局局長"},{"start":3167.034,"end":3172.259,"text":"謝謝主席,因為其實剛剛有特別提到說為什麼我們這個案子會進負二讀,我來喚醒一下大家的記憶我們其實在內政委員會我們有排審兩次,一次在這裡,那當時民進黨的委員們佔領主席台,讓我們沒有辦法審查"},{"start":3185.593,"end":3190.758,"text":"第二次呢高金昭委又排案了一次那也是一樣半夜就有人闖進這個我們的這個內政委員會來導致我們也沒辦法排案審查經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭所以為什麼當時會進負二讀主要是這樣的原因並不是我們不排不排案審查這第一點第二點呢剛剛我想那個我們的蔡宜瑜我們的這個"},{"start":3212.656,"end":3220.158,"text":"蔡宇書記長特別有提到說針對我這次的提案就是希望能夠附上身份證的影本大家認為這個部分的話這個各自的問題非常的嚴重可是我這邊有一個是蔡宇委員跟吳秉瑞委員的提案針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文就是要附上身份證影本的提案"},{"start":3238.763,"end":3264.377,"text":"那表示說當時蔡委員竟然都覺得要附上身份證影本的提案是正確的沒有喔,你的是這個不然是發證實習或身份證影本的話就是認為說這個因為你發明影本的話你也比較去對嘛然後另外就是我們看到就是在上個會期沒有還有在上個會期第十屆的時候蘇巧會委員跟吳王蕾會委員他們也針對"},{"start":3265.257,"end":3275.062,"text":"關於那個不用附影板我先講完 等一下 各位 我要採視一下 我要採視一下那我剛剛講 我也沒差你的話 那我講完你可以再說明的話"},{"start":3281.145,"end":3300.747,"text":"當委員在發言的時候大家盡量不要吵好不好另外就是在第十屆的時候蘇喬惠委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出一個公投法的修正條文的修正草案那吳思瑤委員也是連署人喔裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料貼附本人國民"},{"start":3301.668,"end":3308.991,"text":"身份證的影本這在第十屆的提案這表示說我們其實很多民進黨委員也都認同應該要附上身份證影本所以我覺得這個只是一個資格那你說要怎麼樣我覺得每個連署人或是提議人他本來就有那個責任要去這個保護每個人的個資也就是他收到身份的影本他要善盡保護的責任否則現在的總統的這個選舉辦法就不用就是也是要附上身份證影本"},{"start":3328.178,"end":3343.073,"text":"所以我想這個部分應該是這個社長身份領本我覺得只是對於我們聯署加強它的嚴謹性跟公平性以上好 謝謝許宇甄委員我以舉手先後各位委員舉手我都會把你登記下來的那現在請王洪文委員再請張文武委員準備"},{"start":3346.836,"end":3366.933,"text":"謝謝主席主席很辛苦今天我們選罷法的一個協商大家也可以看到今天民進黨也有很大陣仗來做關心跟發言但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方我們必須要去做一個澄清"},{"start":3369.181,"end":3373.824,"text":"剛才吳思瑤幹事長一直強調說那為什麼不能夠討論呢應該好好在內政委員會討論可是我想大家都記得我想大家記憶力不是那麼淺我們的腦袋應該不是鯨魚腦在上個會期當時高金素沒擔任召委曾經有兩次的排審"},{"start":3396.398,"end":3409.804,"text":"第一次排審還排到是吳秉瑞就是委員也就是蔡議員也當共提的就共同提案人在那一次大家應該也非常清楚當時可以討論嗎當時可以討論嗎因為民進黨的委員全部都佔據在主席台上啊"},{"start":3422.486,"end":3426.188,"text":"記不記得後來我們沒有辦法我們只好呢把這個這個會議室改到這個群賢樓那個時候呢不是啦那第二次我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎有啊你忘記了齁你忘記了齁你們佔據這個我待會會講到你們佔據主席台可能佔領非常習慣齁"},{"start":3452.759,"end":3472.896,"text":"在第一次是7月4號7月4號排審然後沒有辦法所以呢當時的召委只好來換這個會議室可是那個時候占據著內政委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們幾乎是軟禁軟禁我們的相關的議事人員讓他們無法離開"},{"start":3482.942,"end":3486.104,"text":"這就是要討論的民進黨黨團用這樣的討論方式用軟禁議事人員的方式讓他不能夠開會達成不能開會的目的所以我覺得我現在在這邊啊聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談我們需要討論啊充分討論啊"},{"start":3511.311,"end":3518.216,"text":"我覺得可能我們今天要感謝的是還好今天民進黨團在這個協商會沒有站在主席台讓這個協商根本開不成所以7月4號是這樣7月8號那個我想這個吳斯堯委員他只記得那一場我們換了這個議場當天我們的黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能"},{"start":3541.607,"end":3557.541,"text":"是不是我不曉得在凌晨的時候在整個還沒有開議還沒有開門的時候就直接把門打開了這個事情我覺得韓國瑜院長應該是非常的寬厚啊對不對破壞公務至此啊"},{"start":3561.727,"end":3574.692,"text":"所以請問一下那當時如果民進黨團想要討論的話為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天我們不是都在開會討論嗎我是不是內政委員會大概也應該是八點以前嘛大家來登記發言嘛來做討論來做陳述嘛"},{"start":3584.619,"end":3585.439,"text":"但是能嗎?請問一下民進黨給討論嗎?民進黨團給討論嗎?所以你今天在這邊指責國民黨團說幹嘛急什麼?經負二讀為什麼不給討論?不敢討論嗎?"},{"start":3605.829,"end":3629.462,"text":"問題是民進黨黨團不給討論所以我必須要講就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺大家如果在講說如果立法院本來就是講道理的地方大家是論述的地方所以以今天來說說是韓國瑜院長對我們林斯民書記長沒有信心嗎我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心"},{"start":3635.711,"end":3642.518,"text":"連內政委員會好好的排案你們都不願意討論到霸佔主席台請問一下我們還如何的能夠好好的說道理呢"},{"start":3648.769,"end":3665.546,"text":"另外剛才蔡易瑜書記長一直在講說你們現在就這樣設定今天過水明天就是院長來做草野協商星期五就要表決好厲害我也是黨團幹部"},{"start":3672.605,"end":3695.672,"text":"我們在黨團內部我們都沒有討論到的事情哇你都知道我要講的是星期五的設定應該是民進黨團的設定吧應該是民進黨團的設定因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候已經已經在我們立法院附近已經搶下路權了不是嗎所以這搶下路權應該是在上個禮拜啦"},{"start":3701.195,"end":3703.897,"text":"所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢是青鳥設定的嗎還是民進黨團設定的嗎所以你們控制青鳥還是青鳥控制你們我不知道因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議場忘記了嗎忘記了嗎上個會期不是就在那邊青鳥要飛嗎飛進那個立法院嗎好 所以我要講的是"},{"start":3729.69,"end":3729.871,"text":"要討論要協商"},{"start":3733.448,"end":3741.052,"text":"國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序包括剛才吳詩瑤委員講說那麼在星期一的時候覺得應該還是要在我們這個內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商我們也從善如流我講的是我們絕對釋出絕對的善意我們不會因為因人肺炎"},{"start":3762.318,"end":3774.643,"text":"所以那為什麼今天就有這樣的協商呢所以我們也是從善如流但是我們真的要回頭想一想到底誰不願意協商啊另外不願意討論的是你們不是嗎好然後呢我要特別講的就是說"},{"start":3784.912,"end":3787.753,"text":"待會可能我相信可能民進黨團的同仁會談到哎呀這怎麼樣的是那個違背這個違背這個打壓人民的這個公民的權利就是罷免的權利創制復決等等的權利那我們要講的是在我們一些相關的連署裡面"},{"start":3810.868,"end":3825.398,"text":"有身份證影本的 包含總統的連署 總統選舉的連署也是需要身份證影本 所以這不是獨一無二的"},{"start":3826.498,"end":3834.024,"text":"這不是獨一無二的那另外啊我們現在希望能夠能夠把它確認說在這個整個的罷免的過程裡面有一些過去我們所發現的一些疏漏或者我們發現有一些其實呢它其實已經反而傷害了這樣的一個罷免的權利所以我們把它稍作補強"},{"start":3855.521,"end":3859.426,"text":"沒有提高門檻只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保這個是不會有假冒的情勢過去越確實啊我們很多有時候連署會出現死人連署的狀況這個大家也講得非常多了"},{"start":3873.624,"end":3879.108,"text":"那然後剛才我們徐宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉瑞委員跟蔡易瑜委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正選罷法的修正然後我會給你你待會還可以講話嘛對不對你待會還可以講話"},{"start":3900.543,"end":3926.445,"text":"有嗎?我哪一句事實不符?我講了你的法案了嗎?我講了你的法案嗎?你在緊張什麼?撤議委員不要緊張!有?我講錯什麼啊?我還沒...我還沒有...我還沒念啊?你怎麼那麼緊張啊?我沒有!"},{"start":3928.649,"end":3940.848,"text":"根本沒有欸你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話我只講到我只講到吳秉瑞委員、蔡育瑜委員共同提案的法案啊那講錯什麼"},{"start":3946.209,"end":3972.061,"text":"我沒有講我還沒講啊我沒有講錯啊好好好你去掉不要不要插我的話不要插我的話你不要插我的話然後呢我現在呢就來念一下我們吳秉瑞委員蔡毅委員等21人所提案的案有好來看哈"},{"start":3974.923,"end":3995.602,"text":"堅於近幾次罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重讓有心人士藉大量的個人資料假冒提議連署已經違反個人的資料保護"},{"start":3997.011,"end":4013.985,"text":"且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署,不可不為以足以深損害於公眾或他人"},{"start":4015.446,"end":4040.659,"text":"為了避免假冒情勢的發生原擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案以完善罷免制度規定所以我要講的是我們現在覺得我們現在的整個罷免的流程有一些流弊有一些疏失甚至呢"},{"start":4042.07,"end":4046.974,"text":"我們吳秉瑞委員、蔡育委員都認為這樣的聯署制度是漏洞嚴重所以之前吳秉瑞委員有提案只是後來你們撤案了但是這不代表這些的問題已經被解決了"},{"start":4061.437,"end":4087.565,"text":"所以民進黨撤案那麼國民黨基於一個負責任的態度提出我們的版本一樣的出發點也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞也是一樣的去把這些可能產生的一些流弊能夠把它加以解決"},{"start":4089.258,"end":4092.04,"text":"所以請問一下你不能說是這個民進黨提案好棒棒就是什麼要減少流幣等等國民黨提案就是危害到公民的罷免權"},{"start":4108.629,"end":4132.836,"text":"不要這樣好不好永遠都是綠能你不能這樣子的標準是不應該的不要綠能你不能好再來即使內容不相同不是完全相同我講了所以呢所以啊"},{"start":4135.151,"end":4144.621,"text":"那所以啊 你讓我講話啊啊你剛才 你剛才說說我 說我亂講 說我講錯講錯我講錯什麼 我到現在為止 講錯什麼我到現在講錯什麼到現在到底在講錯什麼呢"},{"start":4159.878,"end":4173.927,"text":"各位委員讓我們尊重委員的發言好不好尊重委員的發言我還在講啊我還沒講完你在緊張什麼我還沒講完嘛對不對我還沒講完你要緊張什麼嘛好那麼我們可以看到我現在就要講了嘛對不對"},{"start":4190.657,"end":4193.341,"text":"不要緊張 對不對我幹嘛緊張 我現在就要唸啊"},{"start":4203.592,"end":4217.419,"text":"不要著急以吳秉瑞和蔡易瑜委員共同提案的版本那麼在我們這個國民身份證的統一編號還有發證日期還有什麼戶籍"},{"start":4222.381,"end":4222.682,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具"},{"start":4233.099,"end":4242.583,"text":"彌補上發證日期而國民黨的版本在座精進在座精進除了發證日期之外也參考了總統跟副總統選罷法裏面有關於總統副總統連署在連署的過程裏面也有要求身份證引本"},{"start":4261.07,"end":4262.632,"text":"我們認為選舉總統跟副總統非常重要他也不應該什麼出現去抄名冊去抄工會的名冊甚至有一些死人連署的狀況"},{"start":4276.926,"end":4300.185,"text":"同樣的在罷免也是一樣的那麼我們也尊重公民的罷免權但是我們也體會到如同吳秉瑞跟這個蔡育宇委員所提到的相關的這些流弊我們提出來提出來是身份證影本還有發證日期"},{"start":4303.442,"end":4311.608,"text":"好 所以我要講的是 其實大家都有注意到 在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題當然啦 這個民進黨團講說 你們急什麼 你們怕什麼 你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah"},{"start":4323.817,"end":4344.472,"text":"那我要跟大家報告的是我們剛才我忘記是蔡易瑜委員還是吳思瑤委員提到比如說像這個之前結束不久的這個謝國良的罷免案那麼謝國良罷免案事實上呢謝國良算是不但過關而且算是過關的蠻漂亮的所以其實我們"},{"start":4351.013,"end":4376.879,"text":"所以啦就我在講啊所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛趕快拍手趕快拍手趕快拍手沒有我們是基於整體的今天如果按照謝國良經驗我們幹嘛怕罷免啊對啊我們沒有怕罷免因為"},{"start":4378.59,"end":4387.615,"text":"只要正面對決所以我要講的是這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私"},{"start":4397.108,"end":4420.314,"text":"不會黨議、凌駕民意。然後你想想看,我真的是不解啊。其實我覺得,欸,蔡玉瑜,副書記長,啊我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯了餒。對嘛,我們法案很多,大家都有不同版本,大家來討論。啊請問,好待會你講啦。"},{"start":4426.257,"end":4427.058,"text":"好你待會講我剛才都沒有講錯對不對"},{"start":4431.92,"end":4453.818,"text":"然後呢 這麼好的版本 欸 參議員 這版本好不好你說你說 你說你共同提案的版本好不好你提案的版本好不好你提案 不是不是 你這個提案的版本好不好啊你一般般 你講得這麼好 講得這麼好 你幹嘛"},{"start":4460.322,"end":4483.877,"text":"我沒辦法支持啊!你們撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案了啦!對不對?你撤案了啦!我們都你提啊!"},{"start":4486.4,"end":4502.629,"text":"我跟你講啊,我們把你們,把它當作垃圾的東西,你們是,你們因為齁,啊,國民黨團,我告訴你啦,所以蔡議員"},{"start":4505.239,"end":4532.742,"text":"我是你喔 我是你我就哭哭啦阿我自己覺得 我很努力去提的版本阿結果 為了你們要去佔領主席台那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸欸 7月4號 7月4號欸 就是要提 你看一看一看我又在 我又在recall你們的記憶好不好"},{"start":4534.003,"end":4542.027,"text":"怎麼會記憶這麼淺呢?對不對?記憶這麼淺對不對?7月4號7月4號來7月4號就是要討論吳秉瑞的版本你看陳奕宇"},{"start":4564.434,"end":4576.482,"text":"你把你的版本你把你的提案當垃圾對對他很清楚啊他很清楚啊"},{"start":4583.48,"end":4601.032,"text":"沒錯!你講了!撤案喔!沒錯!你講你撤案啊!你幹嘛撤案?你告訴我你幹嘛撤案?對不對?因為...因為你們要佔領主席台嘛!因為你們...把7月4號來...來7...我很多給你!欸!"},{"start":4609.862,"end":4629.025,"text":"我一定要留給你講啦但是我一定要還原啦不然大家都忘記了我很害怕的大家忘記了講來講去好像是我們不讓你們那個什麼主席、民進黨委員的發言你為什麼不支持了洪輝你都只打斷民進黨的發言你只打斷蔡奕宇"},{"start":4638.567,"end":4655.414,"text":"主持人不公啊下一個是誰講我們請麥一貞委員發言下一個是各位我們就是一定要黨派穿插不可能每一個人當然就張宏錄麥一貞講一下再換張宏錄"},{"start":4660.963,"end":4670.966,"text":"各位我們協商各個黨的意見我們都要聽齁所以我們現在請民眾黨為他第一次發言所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪的發言好不好好我們請麥立正來"},{"start":4683.804,"end":4684.165,"text":"我沒有那麼會講"},{"start":4713.764,"end":4716.745,"text":"特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出所以每一個人都知道說這個不完整所以包含就是死人連署或者抄莊獎名單等等等"},{"start":4732.99,"end":4734.291,"text":"所以就是有這個亂象所以呢我們的嚴重就是影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力和有無私聯署的真實表達的意義所以在選罷法罷免的制度設計應該是就是太處機制而不是政黨的服務"},{"start":4754.506,"end":4760.73,"text":"所以為了維護選罷法我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本但是我們是有幾個就是我們是堅持的為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性唯有就是透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序還能避免就是連署的假象還有就是罷免的制度"},{"start":4777.759,"end":4780.741,"text":"更透明。所以我們台灣民眾黨秉持理性物質科學的理念對於選罷法的修正討論我們不贊成盲目的提高"},{"start":4794.151,"end":4794.751,"text":"尊重尊重請尊重"},{"start":4822.179,"end":4834.924,"text":"好,如果相關大家都被罷免,因為大家都委員嘛,所以聽我講嘛,好嗎?因為大家都有機會罷免,不是只有國民黨還是誰,大家都會有機會,因為每一個人...對啊這一些都是助理來協助,不是博異不相干,但是他也是我的助理,我也可以來主任嘛"},{"start":4852.898,"end":4881.213,"text":"因為,不是,對,聽我講啦,好嗎?不相干,我還沒有講完,我還沒有講完,你們就打斷了,對不對?不相干內政委員會的委員,平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員,很和樂大家來討論,對不對?但是那天我進來,我自己也嚇到,怎麼那麼多不同的委員會都在這裡,所以我們就,我以為是大家在辦什麼活動,是不是公聽會?"},{"start":4883.414,"end":4898.718,"text":"我才知道你們來這邊開派對所以我後面才知道我沒有參與到所以因為我不敢進來大家說你不要進來等一下被他們打的話沒有人保護你我說我不知道是怎麼回事所以我就不進來我只有簽名就是說等開會但是後來就沒有開會所以我們希望就是因為這樣子的"},{"start":4906.44,"end":4934.798,"text":"我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻我們都是從頭到尾都是要這樣子的表態因為對公民權利還有過度的機制民眾黨主張應該比照就是副總統、總統選舉的聯署程序要求就是身分證還有以保聯署的真實性這就是"},{"start":4936.338,"end":4942.441,"text":"預防死人連署的亂象也確保罷免程序的正當性因為每一個人都是委員都是一票一票選出來的對不對我們有選舉的時候就是身分證都要去看清楚所以說對當選的人"},{"start":4958.59,"end":4960.07,"text":"二、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．"},{"start":4978.835,"end":4986.403,"text":"主價值我們希望說呼應大家不管任何人因為大家都是選民選出來的我們要理性的討論關於這個選辦法要達成共識怎麼樣比較好因為不是說這邊國民黨"},{"start":4997.875,"end":5002.616,"text":"民進黨也可能也被罷免對不對未來我們民眾黨很多的立委如果是用票選上來的不是政黨票的也有可能對不對所以我們希望說達成每一個人選舉公平罷免也要公平這樣子的話才不會說好不容易花很多的精神選上了但是呢就是要罷免"},{"start":5027.362,"end":5032.524,"text":"正見不足隨便簽這樣子的話對大家都不公平所以我們希望就是要因為這樣子要怎麼樣提出就是更健全的展示就是我們的應有的效率台灣的選舉還有更加進步所以我們希望是這樣所以今天我們就是表達我們的立場"},{"start":5050.572,"end":5053.934,"text":"選辦法我們不會去就是要去改但是門檻我們希望真的是要嚴謹對大家最公平最有保障的這個就是我們的發言謝謝大家謝謝麥議生委員充分表達民眾黨的立場"},{"start":5084.928,"end":5107.283,"text":"我覺得修這個選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身這個利益是有相關聯的我們當一個立法委員利益迴避應該是最基本的你在修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下我個人認為其實是應該要充分的討論"},{"start":5108.544,"end":5118.275,"text":"那剛剛聽了大家都這樣講好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論啊那我覺得我們應該就是委員會可以充分的討論啊那而且我覺得如果如果齁"},{"start":5122.631,"end":5149.413,"text":"要講要修這個法那公投法也有連署的問題我覺得我們可以一併討論一併來處理對不對我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院所以我覺得兩個理由第一個這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關這是有利益迴避的問題你如果沒有充分的討論我覺得很難對社會大眾交代這是第一個第二個我認為要討論"},{"start":5150.874,"end":5177.372,"text":"你連公投法你也應該要一起討論啊對不對那我記得在上上屆的時候在修公投法的時候國民黨也是極力的反對啊那我覺得這樣的情況之下我們大家一起要好好的坐下來把公投法一起拿來檢視把選罷法一起拿來檢視好好的討論你這樣子才不會立法院你修一個選罷法你把公投法要放在那邊那在台灣"},{"start":5178.813,"end":5195.783,"text":"你變成有要連署的有好幾種啊 對不對剛剛大家講的總統的有一種那你變成選罷法好像又跟總統比較相似然後呢你公投法又要綁在那邊我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法"},{"start":5196.764,"end":5197.725,"text":"委員許甄等20人擬具"},{"start":5212.802,"end":5239.749,"text":"跟這個選舉相關的法律我們拿下來大家好好來討論啦主席我的具體建議是這樣子啦這樣子我們立法院做這樣子的跟自己有利益相關的我覺得比較能夠說服大眾好不好主席好我們謝謝張伍毅委員的發言接下來我們請那個李柏毅委員他現在離開了好那我們就請洪森漢委員"},{"start":5241.305,"end":5244.306,"text":"我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣"},{"start":5271.877,"end":5272.658,"text":"國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019"},{"start":5285.176,"end":5313.865,"text":"內容寫說民進黨提案公投連署需附身份證影本這是侵害隱私提高連署難度所以下面寫說全民互公投民進黨殺公投國民黨的文宣裡面清楚的寫明需要附身份證正反影本這是在殺公投的事情當年呢藍偉強力杯葛公投法2019年的時候"},{"start":5314.881,"end":5335.115,"text":"甚至拿三秒交封鎖門鎖因為強力阻擋公投法所以後來我跟大家說當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身份證影本的後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議"},{"start":5336.55,"end":5352.144,"text":"所以就將要負身份證影本的規定給拿掉了所以最後在2019年6月修正的公投法的版本裡面就是不用負身份證正反影本的"},{"start":5352.845,"end":5372.508,"text":"因為那個時候不管是公民社會公民團體或在野黨包括國民黨包括當時的時代力量我相信那時候也包括當時的黃國昌委員黃國昌委員當時也是立法院在2019年的時候都說要附身份證正反影本這是會傷害人民的個資"},{"start":5376.266,"end":5387.107,"text":"提高連署的難度這都是國民黨的文宣的內容我很少拿國民黨的文宣啦我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣我一個字一個字的念"},{"start":5388.766,"end":5417.617,"text":"我一個字一個字的念這就是國民黨文宣的內容當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識確實覺得身份證影本是有這樣子傷害各自的疑慮傷害各自的疑慮所以大家一起把它給拿掉了民進黨團我們也同意了當時的行政院也同意了所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊揮啦當時大家就一起做成了這個共識"},{"start":5419.107,"end":5446.01,"text":"一起做成這個共識結果呢現在國民黨又拿著身份證、正反影本要來魚目混珠民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身份證的發證日期那不用把整份的身份證的影像全部交出去啊不用交出去啊你只要在家裡把那個發證日期給填上去就好在上面不會有其他的個資不會有整張身份證、正反影本的個資啊"},{"start":5448.454,"end":5473.115,"text":"現在國民黨要做的事情很簡單他就是要讓民眾不敢連署啦現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對很重視被詐騙的問題對不對國民黨咬準了民眾的這個心理知道說如果要連署你要把身份證正版一本交出去民眾就算我很想要罷免那個政治人物我也不敢交出去"},{"start":5474.673,"end":5501.304,"text":"在連署這關把整個罷免給封殺掉還不用去調到時候同意票的門檻在幹前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉這是國民黨現在要做的事情大家看這段文宣主席我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這段文宣有沒有發到你臉書上我不知道這個是朱立倫主席在上面的許宇甄委員看一下朱立倫主席上面還有簽名當年大家用這個說法"},{"start":5506.706,"end":5529.184,"text":"你們快來證實到說是不是啊那我現在講很簡單啦其實大家標準一致啦大家標準一致啦當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院我們也從善如流認為這樣做確實有疑慮所以我們把它拿掉了我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識"},{"start":5530.851,"end":5550.554,"text":"已經不是一個議題了但沒想到在經過了五年之後國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦我要說怕大罷免潮應該是檢討自己不要又去激怒人民啦不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦結果現在國民黨跟民眾黨幹的事情是什麼"},{"start":5552.113,"end":5552.133,"text":"最簡單："},{"start":5568.53,"end":5592.485,"text":"然後現在要與睦混珠說這個身份證的發證日期跟身份證領本就是完全不一樣的事情剛剛王洪威委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情裡面的個資的密度跟強度完全不一樣的事情但又要與睦混珠拜託不要搞這一套你們在閹割人民的權利就是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛侵害隱私嘛"},{"start":5593.701,"end":5604.028,"text":"這四個字大家不會看不懂嘛為什麼當年是侵害隱私五年後現在要復申的那份反應本就不是侵害隱私為什麼給個理由啊當年民進黨當年民進黨也後來也從善如流認為這有各自疑慮這有各自風險所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛"},{"start":5621.058,"end":5648.518,"text":"2019年6月最後的投票的結果大家可以看一下嘛那現在在黨說這個總統副總統的選舉罷免法對不起那個是1995年的法律啦那是1995年修的法律那是法律但是這麼簡單我們最近在討論身份證正法英本的問題是在2019年啦為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法"},{"start":5650.287,"end":5656.865,"text":"我才講8分鐘欸!不是啊!你...他一直要我給個說法!"},{"start":5659.471,"end":5663.474,"text":"為什麼當年修公投法的時候行政院的版本有拘附身份證正反應本的時候國民黨不用說"},{"start":5685.673,"end":5710.588,"text":"總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊為什麼當年不用這個理由因為現在要被罷免的是國民黨的委員嘛就這麼簡單嘛有什麼好遮掩的有什麼好遮掩的我們只要求一件事情啦未來罷免為什麼要打斷為什麼要打斷我們只希望很簡單"},{"start":5712.273,"end":5724.3,"text":"接下來罷免可能有藍有綠啦可能也有白啦但我只要求一件事情啦不要閹割人民的權利啦不要侵犯人民的隱私啦就這麼簡單啦為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到為什麼國民黨現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題各自的問題後面就是詐騙的問題"},{"start":5740.009,"end":5742.25,"text":"這樣子一個法案,為什麼國民黨要強推?毫無道理嘛!就是政治考慮嘛!不要再講什麼民主了啦!閹割人民權利的政黨,兩個政黨,政黨聯合起來,還講什麼民主?就這麼簡單嘛!就這一張文宣就講完了嘛!這誰做的?是民黨做的嗎?這國民黨做的啦!拜託國民黨,不要跟人民對幹啦!"},{"start":5768.661,"end":5769.482,"text":"現在國民黨幹的事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利啦!"},{"start":5769.482,"end":5769.582,"text":"閹割人民的權利啦!"},{"start":5780.629,"end":5809.448,"text":"拜託 我就講到這邊對不起 我的時間不到然後會有那個二分之一那是哪位委員的助理那個哪一個什麼助理那是我的助理對 我想大家直播可以掉袋子就好他拍我喔盡量不要站在那邊啦好不好他拍我喔對 那個算 我們維持秩序啊就你掉袋到時候掉你的直播袋就好了沒問題好不好來對 我想助理盡量不要進到我們議場這邊來我們跑在後面就好了齁朱熹好 以上 朱熹謝謝我們把這道理講在這個地方要講道理大家來講"},{"start":5812.15,"end":5819.812,"text":"要講道理大家來講但請國民黨不要硬幹不要跟人民為敵不要厭惡人民的權利謝謝"},{"start":5843.054,"end":5848.917,"text":"OK,好,輪我說話了吧"},{"start":5861.161,"end":5876.041,"text":"大家已經發表完意見了我要謝謝洪勝翰委員剛剛有提到2019年的時候行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法那我必須說你們真是有先見之明知道說之後的我們這個選舉環境"},{"start":5877.483,"end":5877.523,"text":"選舉罷免法"},{"start":5892.748,"end":5897.691,"text":"法律本來就是會與時俱進,要隨著時空環境的轉變,要來這個管動勢的修正檢討。那麼如果說當時2019年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案,你們認為他是具有正當性的,這個畢竟我們這個任何一個"},{"start":5914.841,"end":5914.901,"text":"這是國民黨!"},{"start":5937.157,"end":5958.607,"text":"每個黨都有你們的更厲害更嚴重如果說你們不擔心的話為什麼你們要反對現在的修法沒有這個道理如果說你們這個認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權那麼我們必須要所有的連署書出去它都必須要是真實的那為什麼要擔心"},{"start":5962.568,"end":5970.41,"text":"這個附上國民身份證的正反映印本還有填上發證日期會有什麼侵害隱私現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了聯署書寫了罷免聯署書然後所以至於造成詐騙的這個猖狂這個會有詐騙的問題都是你們民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團還好意思在那裡講"},{"start":5986.574,"end":5998.801,"text":"我們現在是寫個什麼聯署書然後填一些資料就有可能會洩露個資會造成詐騙如果是這樣的話那總統這個副總統選罷法為什麼你們不提出來修正咧就來修啊對啊我要講就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們是要保護的是整個的罷免案它具有正當性"},{"start":6016.247,"end":6032.977,"text":"從一開始的提議到聯署每一關每一個環節它都是符合真實性的我們不容許有任何的造假的聯署書那麼更何況這個填上聯署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎"},{"start":6036.696,"end":6059.77,"text":"否則怎麼會知道說到底寫上去的身份證字號是真是假?出生年月日是不是正確?戶籍地址是不是正確?所以附上國民身份證的正反映一本不是正好可以讓相關的機關辨於作證、佐證同時也可以讓聯署的單位他也募集聯署的單位他更好可以去辨別哪一個是真假"},{"start":6061.603,"end":6070.591,"text":"這個是有意義的修法不是沒有意義的修法民進黨常常都是拙勢驚飛以前你們所提出來的法案"},{"start":6073.114,"end":6078.938,"text":"你們就是著是驚飛以前你們的提案就可以現在我們的提案就不行我為什麼要笑我覺得很合理啊因為時空環境改變我們不知道民進黨政府執政之後整個的選舉罷免環境就越來越糟糕啊越來越多的弊端出現啊然後這個中選會也不查啊也不查清楚啊都是個案的這個選擇判斷啊"},{"start":6100.555,"end":6126.69,"text":"所以當然也是要修法,修得清清楚楚啊保護各自難道不是聯署這個單位的責任嗎?他今天去募集到這個要聯署人的身份證、銀本當然要保護好啊如果說是大家有疑慮不敢去寫那就代表說也質疑這個聯署單位本身是有問題所以就整個的法的邏輯法理來講是絕對站得住腳的"},{"start":6127.671,"end":6129.034,"text":"所以我就說我很謝謝剛剛紅委員你提出了2019年你當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本為什麼拿掉"},{"start":6138.775,"end":6153.9,"text":"是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛就這麼簡單啊你們還是考慮到你們自己的問題啊如果說你們認為是正確的為什麼當時不堅持勒所以就是這是很有趣的為什麼你當時不堅持勒"},{"start":6159.039,"end":6185.107,"text":"沒有水準的委員太多了啦然後呢我們今天是就事論事今天既然是草野賢商我們就好好的來把這個條文這個看看哪個地方有問題我們來修嘛那如果談不出個結果來那我們就進入到下一個階段嗎?欸!來了!是啊!不是嗎?我就是維尼大!要來了!不是嗎?不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎?要來了!"},{"start":6188.374,"end":6206.049,"text":"各位委員,現在我在宣告一件事,麥義森委員現在已經離席,就是有民主黨的代表他已經離席了,所以現在實際上我們是現在協商明顯不會達成共識,但是沒關係我跟你講,現在我們還是繼續討論,現在大家討論還是繼續討論,我們討論的就是各黨的意見的表達。"},{"start":6213.575,"end":6217.677,"text":"主席會議請問,所以因為那個拜一尊委員民眾黨他不在現場﹖所以我們今天﹖哪裏規定不在場都不能決定協商﹖在哪裏的議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場都不能再協商﹖"},{"start":6241.351,"end":6262.947,"text":"這就是國會跨城法案一模模一樣啊!黃國昌走人!我再詢問一下!不是!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!"},{"start":6269.815,"end":6287.842,"text":"對!我在詢問他為什麼要插話!我在詢問主席!是你跟他在插話好不好!你為什麼要插話?我在詢問!我在詢問不可以嗎?現在我們的討論是各位黨他意見的表達喔!各位意見的表達!各位你們充分表達意見!我沒有意見喔!"},{"start":6300.012,"end":6327.964,"text":"OK我再出聲音我剛才大家聽清楚沒有因為有民眾黨的委員因為我們在協商一定要三個黨都在啦我想你有這個事啦你不要再跟我爭了所以我說不會討論出協商的結果沒有人簽字嘛所以我現在是告訴各位我繼續讓各位發言我們現在的發言就是各位你們自己的就是各位委員你們意見的表達"},{"start":6328.684,"end":6329.784,"text":"我充分尊重"},{"start":6341.735,"end":6364.847,"text":"沒關係 我們待會再跟他確認現在請那個沈柏洋委員發言主席 我覺得大家的互相尊重拜託主席跟民眾黨的代表說一下什麼感覺大家都很重要希望聽到這個告解你跟他拜託一下好不好因為大家的互相尊重沈柏洋委員發言"},{"start":6377.256,"end":6397.932,"text":"主席我可以會議詢問一下嗎?主席我會議詢問一下沒有沒有因為您剛剛的裁示我有點不理解您的裁示是說不管我們講到我們還有很多意見要表達但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經離席了所以你預判說今天協商沒有結論你已經預設了這個前提"},{"start":6402.987,"end":6410.697,"text":"所以現在您的意思是說民眾黨民眾黨跟你們民眾黨是預謀好他走了就讓今天沒有沒有結論對你是說民眾黨預謀好了民眾黨預謀好了結果他離開今天就沒有結論是這樣嗎"},{"start":6421.584,"end":6444.449,"text":"黨團協商就是這樣,我們沒有辦法達成結論啊!那我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我現在只能排今天這一場,明天我們再,那好啦,就這樣我們就宣告了主席玩弄程序啊,怎麼會在討一討啊,主席敢再討一討啊!對,你不要再討來一件啊!還要再討來一件啊!"},{"start":6447.471,"end":6447.751,"text":"請審委員表達意見"},{"start":6463.084,"end":6480.191,"text":"民眾黨先離開了,但是我們還是有可能國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識,這也是很重要的事情。那如果今天只是在程序上,程序上因為他不在,但我們如果兩黨能夠達成共識的話,這也是一個很重要的事情。"},{"start":6480.871,"end":6508.701,"text":"那或許我們能夠延續下去的話那明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急著開阿因為我們這表示我們有延續性嘛阿可能那個麥委員回來之後呢可能他過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還可以繼續協商啦我的建議是這個樣子所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去剛剛其實有蠻多共識的啦第一個共識應該就是我感覺王委員跟汪委員應該都蠻想加入民進黨的一直在看我們的法案啦齁對不對這個我覺得他很支持以前我們的一些想法啦齁對不對"},{"start":6511.278,"end":6537.478,"text":"但是我必須要講幾個點就是說第一個就是當然是很感謝主席就是讓我們有這一個協商的這一個機會但我還是必須要講就是我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好第一個就是我們在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講這一個提高罷免門檻這件事情但是其實這個顯然剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發"},{"start":6540.62,"end":6565.307,"text":"大部分都是在講說有死人連署有這個作假什麼等等那其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的一個問題就是大家可以看到就以往有那麼多的這些造假的連署這一個呢大部分不是大部分都是國民黨發動的那比例很高但我覺得重點是什麼重點是他被發現了比如說發動罷免陳志忠有46%不合格發動罷免高明玲這個有49%不合格"},{"start":6569.548,"end":6595.624,"text":"那這個數據在這邊的意思是什麼就是我們發現它不合格嘛如果我們發現得了它不合格的話那為什麼用這個當作理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變除非我們是覺得說他們發現得太慢了他們發現的這個程序這個通常要好幾天我們現在想要縮短這些公務人員的作業時間所以我們要修改一些規定這樣聽起來才合理嘛"},{"start":6596.204,"end":6609.819,"text":"那很多人就說我們要弄這個影本是可能是為了要怕說他們有偽造啊就是冒名啊但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪啊所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法其實跟這件事情沒有關係"},{"start":6611.537,"end":6632.444,"text":"這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的跟你要不要附發證要不要附影本沒有什麼關係啊他的因果根本就不存在嘛那不存在的話那為什麼要這個理由來修法所以就回到下一個層次就是當你今天要附身份證影本的時候既然這一個不是理由那你真正的理由是什麼就是讓罷免變難嘛"},{"start":6634.665,"end":6657.691,"text":"讓罷免變難這件事情我們可以來看一下因為剛剛麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場因為今天大家都一直在講歷史所以還是講一下我們可以從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起但是我們可以看到這一個13年的黃國昌委員就有說有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可怕的事情所以他在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜"},{"start":6659.372,"end":6674.088,"text":"每個提議員跟臨署人要求把身份證影本交出來你會擔心,擔心的效果是什麼所以呢這個很明顯我們可以看到在2013年的黃國昌委員現在可能在家裡的地下室就是"},{"start":6676.94,"end":6677.08,"text":"委員許宇甄"},{"start":6695.365,"end":6711.858,"text":"本來在法律上就可以直接規範在程序上也可以被發現所以最重要的是當你把這個東西加進去不管你今天是從發證日起還是你從身份證引本你就是實質在讓門檻增加你就是實質讓罷免變得不容易"},{"start":6712.478,"end":6730.11,"text":"那罷免作為一個政治性的權利這是一個動態的過程我們台灣人民已經熟悉了民主其實也慢慢在熟悉罷免這件事情如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去這個第一個會造成政治權利上的一個傷害第二個就像剛剛這個馮委員提到的"},{"start":6732.071,"end":6760.392,"text":"以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗現在詐欺很猖獗這一些東西呢他拿出來之後呢很有可能會被詐欺拿去利用嘛更不要講說如果這邊大家對於這一個所謂的這一個個資外洩可能有研究的話其實齁照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案你利用發證日期來做審核這件事情聽起來是合理的但是通常來講如果你今天要取得一個人的個資假設我今天有他的那一個條碼"},{"start":6761.593,"end":6783.329,"text":"通常我還在需要一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換照日期所以其實發證跟換照日期在資安上面比大家想像的重要非常非常多而這個也不是以前這是這兩三年才會變得那麼重要這是應該跟我們內部這個資安的這個機制有關係所以我這個就不多說所以我還是覺得說我們今天既然"},{"start":6784.15,"end":6813.032,"text":"想要協商想要聚焦我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情就是其實這一個法案他就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案他的目的就是這個樣子他其實非常的明確因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛那既然是這個樣子的話我們就是要討論我們要不要限制人民的罷免權如果你不要限制人民的罷免權那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去接下來我還要講一下就是我覺得這法案寫的有點粗糙為什麼"},{"start":6813.732,"end":6816.741,"text":"因為發現日期在有一個版本有一個版本沒有"},{"start":6817.369,"end":6844.286,"text":"但我們可以看到我剛才是稍微翻了一下譬如說在162頁這一個這應該是徐委員的這個版本他在這一個呢右邊這一個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期不知道為什麼不知道是不是傅公祺的版本複製過來但我記得你的版本是比較早的所以就是有些文字上的謬誤然後再來就是最後一個叫98條之二利用他人個人資料未經同意未造假冒提議連署"},{"start":6845.908,"end":6870.891,"text":"這個條文問題非常多為什麼第一個我們的法律本來就有規定第二個它的第二行叫做未經同意偽造那我在這邊稍微科普一下偽造的定義就叫做未經同意所以偽造就是偽造不需要未經同意偽造然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署這其實三種不同的行為是不是要等量以關這個我看司法院其實已經有提到"},{"start":6871.511,"end":6889.325,"text":"所以其實有太多太多的事情其實應該要在委員會討論當然我猜可能等一下又要講說那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開啊什麼等等之類的我要告訴大家當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候就算今天討論了我們的討論會直接被停止那昨天才發生的事情"},{"start":6890.256,"end":6905.859,"text":"一句話我都沒有講到就直接被停止討論其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太多事情所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述那最後我還是要一個紅路委員講的我覺得非常重要的一點就是這個涉及事項"},{"start":6906.92,"end":6926.434,"text":"既然這一個會影響到現在的立法委員我覺得這第一個要三思第二個我覺得更應該往下我們要去注意的就跟釋字499號講的類似就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟這一個立法委員的報酬啦待遇啦什麼等等之類的他應該要怎麼樣要從刺借起實施啦"},{"start":6926.974,"end":6946.178,"text":"也就是說如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話人民的信賴利益也會被破壞那麼你就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用但這一個東西呢也沒有在我們現在討論的這個法案的內容裡面所以我必須要講說呢這個就是第一個它的理由是不夠充分的第二個就是它的文字上也有很多的疑慮"},{"start":6946.798,"end":6974.42,"text":"那更不要講說行則的部分定的不明確再加上又有自我這個迴避的問題齁我是認為說至少我們在這一邊呢必須要審慎一對這個協商應該要拉長一點齁那我簡單講到這邊,謝謝好,謝謝沈薄洋委員齁啊,那個林憲吉委員有,有,有代表,對,你第一輪我讓你先講一下下一位就請蘇巧慧委員然後再張雅琳委員齁,OK"},{"start":6976.161,"end":6993.399,"text":"主席、各位歷任同仁我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商大家都因為是尊重民主政治當中我們對於人民行使各項權利包括我們今天在這邊討論的有關於罷免前的這樣一個民主性我們都相信它是神聖的"},{"start":6994.46,"end":6994.68,"text":"主席"},{"start":7024.58,"end":7028.104,"text":"國民黨的版本是希望我們在這個罷免權利的形式上那更為"},{"start":7047.641,"end":7068.356,"text":"更為更細緻如果民進黨認為在這個行使權利的過程當中會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式或許在相關的法規裡面提出來你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮"},{"start":7069.036,"end":7069.056,"text":"﹚委員"},{"start":7084.557,"end":7084.677,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":7100.319,"end":7109.283,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天變成是歷史課大家都要來回憶我們之前的這個印象那我是覺得如果我們要開始回憶的話其實不能夠只有從7月4號那天在委員會當天這個混亂的現場開始回憶起"},{"start":7117.586,"end":7119.587,"text":"大家應該要更往前這個五月份的時候這個國民黨提出的這個擴權法案造成了這麼多的社會反彈在這樣的狀況 對不對甚至是從今年的二月換屆之後人數的多寡交替之後立法院呈現一個什麼樣的狀況大家開始來回憶起嘛"},{"start":7142.722,"end":7148.144,"text":"所以從五月的時候發現國民黨提的法案就算社會的大多數聲音民進黨的委員跟他說我們有意見我們覺得這個有問題社會上甚至是跟他們講說這個過去你們提的版本民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本大家都不同意不是多數所以沒有過他還是像現在今天這樣說沒有你們民進黨就是有提出"},{"start":7167.711,"end":7189.919,"text":"我們一直跟他講說可是後來沒有成啊就沒有過啊所以表示我們當時也尊重草野當時的草野的這個討論的結果最後沒有過他就不管他就是一直repeat重複repeat這台詞是一模一樣到現在好啦那結果這個五月的時候你看到二十幾號的時候哎呀坐在我對面這個沈伯陽委員真的你當時辛苦了從台上這樣跌下來真的是真的是幸好剛剛看看這個講話的時候都還是駝邏輯清楚啦齁"},{"start":7196.441,"end":7216.673,"text":"這是被到底是被誰推下來丟下來這樣的狀況看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶到現在人家都還是說你是自找的這個實在是喔實在是覺得齁真的你看齁所以我們真的是要回憶一下然後呢所以當時的立法院氣氛就是"},{"start":7217.754,"end":7222.757,"text":"如果 如果 國民黨想要法案 就是要按照國會的人數多數 強行通過 淨富二讀快速通過 過水式的通過 那當然 後面他如果再提出任何的法案 我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊好 那我們來看7月4號 7月4號是一個什麼樣的氛圍"},{"start":7241.73,"end":7246.071,"text":"七月四號就是在六月二十九的時候拆糧山海行動正提出啊我們已經超過第二階段的連署數了所以罷糧又進入一個新的階段哇經過了被這麼多人十萬人上街抗議的國民黨再加上這個看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來連兩階段的連署都已經過了"},{"start":7266.556,"end":7269.537,"text":"這時候的國民黨會想要什麼當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發生嘛所以當然是要加嚴這個罷免的制度嘛怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好就是把大家不想拿出來的身份證影本把它加到條件裡面最好啊所以你看看他們的版本就是這樣嘛所以7月4號"},{"start":7289.566,"end":7302.631,"text":"當然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛好啦在以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了沒有想到竟然是近乎二讀就直接跳到說由國民黨召開協商就是今天的會議啊好 那我們把這個歷史還原了大家記憶還原不要只採取片段式的記憶要回憶就通通想起來要回憶就大家從頭到尾來說不要只有講這種片段式的狀況"},{"start":7318.536,"end":7337.94,"text":"好那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了啦來啦那為什麼現在新的今天提出來的兩個版本裡面是只有國民的只有國民身份證影本和發證日期大家現在有沒有在實務上看到我們因為為了要防害詐騙這樣的狀況的時候防害詐騙狀況的時候"},{"start":7342.381,"end":7345.244,"text":"那會加上什麼樣的條件?其實有啊,蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了。你去換身份,你去要辦信用卡的時候,也有加上身份證的換證日期了。這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的增加信用的條件嘛。"},{"start":7364.105,"end":7379.616,"text":"所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況為什麼?因為他不用把身份證留在別人那裡他只要在填的時候多填一個就好啦跟直接附上身份證引本整個圖鑑完全不一樣嘛所以完全不一樣的狀況下當然吳炳銳和蔡英宇當時的版本是加換證日期是符合現代現代的狀況的啊國民黨現在提出來的身份證引本是不一樣的嘛"},{"start":7390.612,"end":7401.558,"text":"所以主席我在這裡我用道理跟你講道理這才是剛剛什麼人家講的啊立法院是好好講道理的地方我現在就跟你講道理啊講道理是社會現行的狀況加換證日期跟加身份證影本是完全不同的狀況在實務的層次上面也完全已經得到不同的共識性了嘛好那如果"},{"start":7415.106,"end":7422.177,"text":"如果今天要認真討論條文那我們到底要改到什麼程度我們可以討論主席你今天是做一個協調會的主席"},{"start":7424.83,"end":7428.051,"text":"現在民眾黨也走啦 他說他有行程走啦 國民黨 欸 登登那 我不曉得今天的協商 等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決 主席我們的國會影像都在錄 國會影像都在錄嘛 後面電視台也在錄嘛"},{"start":7446.656,"end":7446.956,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":7466.041,"end":7482.505,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們今天有聲音嗎我想我們今天討論這個選罷法草案其實是關乎了台灣的民主制度這是一個非常嚴肅的事情因為我想你問任何一個人要參與聯署的時候必須把你的身份證拿出來這難度絕對是非常非常高的而且這絕對會造成我們這個詐騙的問題如果你現在把"},{"start":7487.686,"end":7490.527,"text":"一、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案"},{"start":7514.955,"end":7533.123,"text":"可能會造成未來這個詐騙橫行的問題再來第二個部分就是說其實呢剛剛薄洋委員其實也有說了嘛最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨啦但是國民黨提出這個我也是覺得是蠻可笑的啦而且我們如果要討論這個這麼嚴肅的問題"},{"start":7534.884,"end":7560.565,"text":"其實我們應該要開公聽會上面諮詢專家學者的意見好好地來審議看如何保障民眾的罷免權的時候呢我們也可以來避免這個造假的問題可是我們這一次並沒有經過任何的公聽會來討論有關這個身份證的這個問題所以我自己會認為說其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議"},{"start":7561.963,"end":7562.443,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員我們再來請王美惠委員"},{"start":7587.711,"end":7591.015,"text":"主席 噢 等很久了 多久了主席 感謝 給我這個機會啦因為今天 我覺得說大家要協商說這個選法法的時候是大家互相尊重問題出一台 要怎麼去改進嘛"},{"start":7609.034,"end":7612.077,"text":"不是說跟我們說出來民進黨說出來又不行國民黨說出來又可以這樣不好這樣不是叫做協商大家尊重的意見我們一個國家要進步就是要發展"},{"start":7624.671,"end":7629.195,"text":"覺得要如何補充要如何改善像現在大家的爭議點就是一方面大家要新聞局的議案本另外一方面新聞局的議案本的個資在報導誰要罷免的權益"},{"start":7649.091,"end":7650.793,"text":"因為有很多我想要罷免,但是為了要押韻新聞局的顧慮,所以我們去報導被誰想要做的工作,說實在我們這樣也不好啦,我看到剛才"},{"start":7667.208,"end":7669.91,"text":"一檔會遭料,另外一檔會遭料, 我覺得大家是互相尊重, 因為協商當中,一點點真的說不完啦, 我也感謝主席"},{"start":7682.503,"end":7687.727,"text":"主席給我們大家有表達的機會,因為我們的選法法的門檻像剛才說的,我們不能自己自毀自己,要適用在後面,也沒有人這麼發生、這麼行的,我認為"},{"start":7704.707,"end":7705.727,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7723.839,"end":7745.03,"text":"主席就算了,這是最重要的,我是要來請教我們的主席,醫生。好,我們謝謝王美和委員,那個事由幹事長跟議員,培宇還沒講,因為培宇還沒講,我們就請培宇講,因為現在大家,好,培宇講完我再來做宣告,好來,請培宇。"},{"start":7748.415,"end":7758.784,"text":"好,謝謝主席。既然要上歷史課,我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點,也幫主席複習。大家都說身份證交出來有資安的問題,剛剛美會委員也說了,"},{"start":7762.808,"end":7773.451,"text":"交出身份證大家會害怕我要提醒大家為什麼會害怕小的時候我爸爸說不要碰政治因為會叫國民黨點名做記號以前那個時代大家對於國民黨的威權統治如果都還記得所以我要提醒大家"},{"start":7781.635,"end":7797.116,"text":"現在所有人在擔心的,當我交出身分證,當我就是被認證我是要反對某一個政黨的人,請問那個民主的機制如何運轉下去?今天國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了。"},{"start":7798.317,"end":7812.373,"text":"但是他們就算在這裡我也不認為他們願意承認威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒還在非常多台灣人民的心中所以他們今天做出這個非常荒謬的條文我要說的是"},{"start":7813.274,"end":7839.463,"text":"不是只有條文本身有資安的問題而是他背後如何想像台灣人民把自己身份交出去把身份證交出去他們如何對台灣人民交代再來大家最近都有看到NHK紀錄片在講各自被濫用的問題還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題請問國民黨或是民眾黨的委員你們自己要不要在這個議題上對台灣人民有所交代如果"},{"start":7840.183,"end":7868.92,"text":"如同剛剛司法委員有提醒主席也請主席等一下做出裁示如果今天的發言跟協商只是一個過水根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質的協商那我要再次提醒主席你身為今天協商的主席你必須要去呼應回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮不要讓我們陪你坐在這邊聊天講故事我們很願意主張我們的論述我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨"},{"start":7869.58,"end":7897.475,"text":"跟民眾黨的委員對於相關的疑慮他們完全不考慮但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席或是陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲好 謝謝各位委員我想今天很感謝大家大家都不空來參與那個是要我先講完因為大家一直在問我現在要怎麼做覺得喬維尼一直在笑我跟各位講"},{"start":7898.666,"end":7918.584,"text":"我現在一定要依立法院執行實施法來做出我的裁示因為我們黨團協商今天不是主條討論今天是黨團協商一定要三個黨做成結論達成共識現在民主黨他說他先離開啦我也不能去制止他說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商"},{"start":7920.286,"end":7941.28,"text":"國民黨我們也離開了所以我們很難達成共識那依照我們立法院執行其實法71條沒有辦法達成共識其實我剛才就要宣布可以宣布散會的但是我已經承諾大家我要聽大家把意見表達完畢所以大家都已經有把自己的意見有做表達了所以現在才說下去你說"},{"start":7947.503,"end":7965.619,"text":"但是這麼說就不會達成共識啊沒有啦我明天我還是依照我的職責我要做出以下宣告有關本日之協商會議本席擬具結論無效就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完立次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上立次選罷法的協商"},{"start":7974.086,"end":7990.297,"text":"由委員會的審查：還有兩次以上的朝野協商：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：今天就是過水：今天就是演技：今天就是虛晃一朝零四年：你是歷史的罪人今天就是過水："},{"start":8003.946,"end":8003.966,"text":"請審議案"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T15:59:59+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:00:23.470541+08:00","text":"各位同仁大家早，我們今天要進行黨團協商，協商的主題是有關財政、內政兩委員會報告併\n案審查委員賴士葆等 22 人、委員傅崐萁等 20 人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n的案子。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:00:23.470541+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:00:47.941081+08:00","text":"我們要請各位黨團代表以及次長、署長等政府官員分別就本次協商主題「地方稅法通\n則第四條條文修正草案」表達意見，我們就到臺下進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:00:47.941081+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:01:12.411622+08:00","text":"這個在委員會裡頭事實上已經有審查報告了，在上一回已經列席說明備詢，這是在 113 年 5 月\n6 號，今年 5 月已經聯席會議審查過了，然後提案要旨賴士葆委員跟傅委員也都有說了，大家看\n一下書面的資料上面有，我們就不再贅述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:01:12.411622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:01:36.882162+08:00","text":"那時候理事長也有回應委員的提案，這個資料也有\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:01:36.882162+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:02:01.352703+08:00","text":"至於最後的結論，財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆等人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定明為中央\n立法之地方稅，及傅崐萁委員等人提案將地方稅明定為中央立法所定的地方稅，並增訂同條第\n三項定明地方政府開徵之特別稅課、臨時稅課及附加稅課不適用第一項徵收率調高 30%之限制\n，與第四條原立法意旨相符，這是財政部的看法，所以尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:02:01.352703+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:02:25.823243+08:00","text":"之前我們委員\n會已經聽取說明及詢答，還有經過大體討論，進行討論後已經有達成共識，全案審查完竣，審\n查結果是全案保留送院會處理，這是上一次開會的決議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:02:25.823243+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:02:50.293784+08:00","text":"所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報\n院會，院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商，也就是我們今天進行協商的目的。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:02:50.293784+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:03:14.764324+08:00","text":"然後討論本案時，羅\n召集委員會補充說明，我今天就來補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:03:14.764324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:03:39.234865+08:00","text":"大家手上都有這份資料吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:03:39.234865+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:04:03.705405+08:00","text":"這個案子看起來是單\n純啦，看起來行政院、財政部也沒有特別的反對意見，就尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:04:03.705405+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:04:28.175946+08:00","text":"郭委員有意見，請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:04:28.175946+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:04:52.646486+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，就是因為有意見才會保留到政黨進行協商，雖然字眼上增加不多，然後賴\n版跟傅版其實條文上只有一、兩字的差異而已，但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成共識的幾項原因\n，我做一個比較敘述性的說明：第一個，這個其實牽扯到個案修法的疑慮，有相關的訴訟案件\n目前還在纏訟當中，特別是花蓮縣的部分跟砂石業者之間所引發的一連串爭議跟行政救濟，從\n105 年到現在一直在纏訟當中，這個我讓主席了解一下，所以此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法\n的口實，這是第一個。","quality":0.005},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:04:52.646486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:05:17.117027+08:00","text":"第二個部分，就法條內容來看的話，因為原條文第四條當中就有規範\n30%的限制，他卻把它限縮在所謂中央立法所定的範疇，也就是說，只要是地方新增的稅源，就\n沒有受這個比率上的限制，而新增稅源的部分，與地方相關的條文是第三條，如果沒有一個比\n率上的限制的話，恐無法預期那個稅率是如何。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:05:17.117027+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:05:41.587568+08:00","text":"也就是說，地方自治的權利變成無法預測或毫\n354\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n無依循，它要幾倍就變幾倍，會變成這種狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:05:41.587568+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:06:06.058108+08:00","text":"所以如果要修這條法的話，嚴格來說也要附帶\n連同第三條一併來修正，這樣才會比較有完整性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:06:06.058108+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:06:30.528649+08:00","text":"第三個部分，其實針對地方稅法通則，不論\n就財政部也好或學者也好，大家都有類似的看法，財政部也委託過研究，就認為這個限制太多\n、應該修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:06:30.528649+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:06:54.999189+08:00","text":"其實在陳委員前兩天主持的公聽會當中，我們也不斷提到要充實地方的財源，增\n加它的自主能力，地方稅法通則應該要修，您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:06:54.999189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:07:19.469730+08:00","text":"關於地方稅法通則，老實講，就大部分的地方政府來說的話，是看得到吃不到，或即便吃得\n到也是吃一點點，然後因為只可以吃一點點，它就想要吃很大口，所以產生了今天這個很大的\n爭議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:07:19.469730+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:07:43.940270+08:00","text":"所以源頭還是這一部法案應該要去面對、要去修，然後要有一個通盤的考量，就如同我\n剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係，是不是其他的稅源有可能再有一點開拓性，不要有太多\n的限制性？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:07:43.940270+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:08:08.410811+08:00","text":"基本上我是認為財政部責無旁貸，而且次長是專家當中的專家，署長也算是在次長\n之後而已，財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊，如果他們想不出來，誰能夠想得出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:08:08.410811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:08:32.881351+08:00","text":"而且\n講白一點，我認為這一個條文，一來真的要請財政部費心去了解一下地方政府的一些相關需求\n，他們有沒有察覺到限制在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:08:32.881351+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:08:57.351892+08:00","text":"當然這是想要財政自主的人，如果沒有想要財政自主的時候\n，他可能也不太關心啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:08:57.351892+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:09:21.822432+08:00","text":"但是我相信總是會有人想要多一點自主財源的可能性，因此我是認為\n這個要再花點時間請財政部召開一次會議，但是不要再委託研究，因為委託研究已經很多次了\n，哪邊可以放、哪邊不能放，如果兩位不知道的話，我想全中華民國其他 2,300 萬人也沒人知道\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:09:21.822432+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:09:46.292973+08:00","text":"所以針對這個部分，希望財政部再根據上一次公聽會的結論，就是陳委員擔任主席所做的\n結論，還有今天這一個政黨協商能夠押個日期好了，看能不能在 6 個月內提出相關的草案，這\n個很重要，提出一個行政院版的草案出來，讓整個地方政府有更多的稅源可以充實他們本身的\n地方財政。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:09:46.292973+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:10:10.763514+08:00","text":"以上是我的看法，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:10:10.763514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:10:35.234054+08:00","text":"非常謝謝郭委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:10:35.234054+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:10:59.704595+08:00","text":"財政部有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T16:10:59.704595+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:11:24.175135+08:00","text":"我回應一下好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T16:11:24.175135+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:11:48.645676+08:00","text":"這次修法的內容主要是第四條的部分，因為是委員提案，委員提案的部分主要就是讓\n第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚，本來第四條的立法本意也是指以中央立法的地方稅，所以這次\n委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T16:11:48.645676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:12:13.116216+08:00","text":"剛才郭委員講的這件事情，涉及到地方政府他們開徵地方\n稅的權責，要不要把現行第三條有些限縮的範圍再放寬，當然，目前第三條限縮的範圍其實在\n當時訂定的時候都有全國全盤性的考慮，需不需要再另外配合這次財劃法的修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T16:12:13.116216+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:12:37.586757+08:00","text":"委員們都覺\n得地方稅法通則可能應該要併同做一個檢討，我們應該也是可以回去另外再召集會議，但是因\n為那個是全盤性的考量，跟這次委員提案當然是兩件事情，所以可能還是看看今天怎麼樣處理\n的結果，我們都尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:12:37.586757+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:13:02.057297+08:00","text":"我講這個題目是非常中性的，而且很專業的題目。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:13:02.057297+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:13:26.527838+08:00","text":"我當初提這個修法，主要是看到過\n去的立委、也是財稅專家曾巨威，在經濟日報有一篇社論還有一篇專欄特別提到，現在來講，\n355\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n地方稅法通則讓地方可以在 30%裡面調高的部分（調高也調低，但事實上基本上是調高），就\n裡面來講，事實上範圍的部分能夠把它限縮在中央立法的地方稅這部分，中央如果沒有立，就\n尊重地方政府，我強調等於把這個權力下放給地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:13:26.527838+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:13:50.998378+08:00","text":"我剛剛為什麼比較晚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:13:50.998378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:14:15.468919+08:00","text":"因為還接受到兩個媒體裡面很資深的記者就問我，這麼中性的題目，\n為什麼還要協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:14:15.468919+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:14:39.939459+08:00","text":"就問我這個問題，我說不知道，反正就協商，我們來講清楚，沒有要針對誰\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:14:39.939459+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:15:04.410000+08:00","text":"而且我們強調這個也是一致的，像財劃法也是如此，就是中央管地方的時候，中央是不是能\n夠放一點權力給地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:15:04.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:15:28.880541+08:00","text":"以現在來講的話，我們還有一個現象，就是常常是中央請客、地方買單\n，比如現在講什麼里長加薪、加什麼的，都是地方政府在買單，不是中央政府去買單；像娛樂\n稅，現在放了，你們娛樂稅是強調很久，你們現在放了，過去都不放。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:15:28.880541+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:15:53.351081+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得針對現在目前來講整個的趨勢，大家都希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性，等於是\n除了中央訂的調 30%以外，其他的部分就尊重地方，而且也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調，\n還要經過地方的議會同意、要議會通過，議會沒有通過也不能做，所以不是地方政府就能夠來\n獨裁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:15:53.351081+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:16:17.821622+08:00","text":"就這個來講的話，我是希望說看看怎麼樣，可以有共識，那就通過吧；如果不能有共識\n，那就送到院會處理吧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:16:17.821622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:16:42.292162+08:00","text":"我綜合剛剛大家的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:16:42.292162+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:17:06.762703+08:00","text":"剛剛郭委員講得很好，但是你說所謂的個案修法，立法院常常就是\n遇到重大事情才會進行修法，因為我們有時候比較慢，通常沒有先進一步在修法，我們應該檢\n討，比如像消防，發生什麼消防事故的時候，我們都開始十萬火急地開始修消防相關的法令。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:17:06.762703+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:17:31.233243+08:00","text":"所以為個案修法不等於是壞事，反而我們要檢討為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法，如果我\n們立法院的同仁們比較有遠見，我們應該事先修法，但是事後亡羊補牢，猶未晚矣，我們還是\n要跟得上時代的改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:17:31.233243+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:17:55.703784+08:00","text":"我剛剛是舉消防的案例當例子，不是說為個案修法就不好，只是我們要\n檢討自己為什麼沒有遠見，沒有看到比較遠的地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:17:55.703784+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:18:20.174324+08:00","text":"第二個，禮拜一我們開財劃法相關的會議，事實上也是類似這個相關，也說到地方稅法通則\n要修改，讓地方比較有更強大的自主權，知道自己的財源收入要怎麼樣收比較多，然後要自給\n自足、更強一點，這個也是我們大家共同的想法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:18:20.174324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:18:44.644865+08:00","text":"所以我覺得誠如剛剛李次長所說的，我禮拜\n一也有講，地方稅法通則本來也是應該修，你們也有提出來，我也是很支持，所以次長，的確\n全盤的部分也應該要去檢討，我們財劃法往前走，你們的稅則要跟上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:18:44.644865+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:19:09.115405+08:00","text":"關於單項法令，因為賴委員跟傅委員都已經提出來，我們就往前走，後面你們該修的也要跟\n上，我也贊同你說要研究，所以我也支持你的想法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:19:09.115405+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:19:33.585946+08:00","text":"所以應該是這麼說吧，當然如果今天可以\n達成共識，那 OK，這個法就先過了；如果郭委員有意見，當然，我們也要尊重你的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:19:33.585946+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:19:58.056486+08:00","text":"我們\n如果保留出去的話，到朝野協商的時候還有 1 個月，這個月如果要做什麼研究、次長要去做什\n麼研究，也是尊重他們嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:19:58.056486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:20:22.527027+08:00","text":"至於全盤的研究，他願意給你們比較多的時間，但是財政部要知道\n，我們財劃法是往前走的，你們要研究也要快速，不是說 3 個月、6 個月，你們也要快速地趕快\n把東西送過來，不然我們也不會等待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:20:22.527027+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:20:46.997568+08:00","text":"現在尊重地方自主權很重要，尤其財劃法的精神也是這樣子，所以我覺得這個應該也沒什麼\n，如果對這個照案這樣通過，郭委員會有不同意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:20:46.997568+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:21:11.468108+08:00","text":"356\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:21:11.468108+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:21:35.938649+08:00","text":"我還有不同意見，謝謝主席的回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:21:35.938649+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:22:00.409189+08:00","text":"第一個，基本上往往有些重大事件的時候，修法\n確實是有，不是沒有，但是這件事情不是事後，現在是進行中 ing，它並不是事後，也就是說，\n有個案修法的疑慮在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:22:00.409189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:22:24.879730+08:00","text":"而且在司法訴訟當中有兩造雙方，任何修法都會影響個別權益的問\n題，所以這個要慎重的原因是在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:22:24.879730+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:22:49.350270+08:00","text":"第二個部分，基本上，我的論點其實都一樣，就是地方需要多一點稅源，地方財政需要更多\n的自主，地方稅法通則需要修，但是問題是怎麼修，不是這樣修，所以我保留意見是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:22:49.350270+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:23:13.820811+08:00","text":"還有一點，就是呼應一下賴士葆委員，第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款，因為它的六\n大限制實在限制非常地多，因此其實要動的話，應該連同第三條一起動，配套來做處理，這樣\n會比較完整一點，否則的話，單純地用這一條來說，真的會陷入個案修法的疑慮，。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:23:13.820811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:23:38.291351+08:00","text":"事實上，\n我說的個案修法確實是有司法案件正在訴訟當中，因此我認為這部法案需要修，但是怎麼修？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:23:38.291351+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:24:02.761892+08:00","text":"應該比較全面地修，讓地方政府更有財源的修，而不是為個案而修。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:24:02.761892+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:24:27.232432+08:00","text":"我再提一下，這不是什麼個案，因為這個案子我在第 10 屆就提出來了，但是因為屆\n期不連續……那時候傅委員沒有提案，只有我一個人提案，在第 10 屆我就提了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:24:27.232432+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:24:51.702973+08:00","text":"各位都知道，\n我們當立委這麼久，你想修這個、想修那個，一定是看各界名家、各個教授他們的看法，那天\n我就看到曾巨威寫的這一篇，我覺得很有道理，就著手來修。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T16:24:51.702973+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:25:16.173514+08:00","text":"所以我是從第 10 屆開始修，但第\n10 屆沒有過，屆期不連續，這一屆又拿出來修，整個故事、story 是這樣子的，不需要什麼都把\n它政治化、戴上一個帽子，不過我尊重郭委員的立場，那就看主席怎麼裁定吧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:25:16.173514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:25:40.644054+08:00","text":"我們尊重大家的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:25:40.644054+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:26:05.114595+08:00","text":"事實上，立法院的法令本來就會影響到很多的個案，比如我們上一屆\n修民法的利息，本來是 20%，我記得後來好像修成是 16%，那同時一定有很多訴訟案件有 20%\n跟 16%的案子在那裡發生，一定有很多、很多的個案，這個毫無疑問，立法就是會影響到百姓\n，但是我們是民意代表，所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:26:05.114595+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:26:29.585135+08:00","text":"如果今天大家都覺得沒有辦法\n達成一致，我們就一樣，就是保留，我們還有朝野協商這個階段，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:26:29.585135+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:26:54.055676+08:00","text":"所以我們就保留，\n然後送朝野協商，讓他們還有 1 個月可以去討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:26:54.055676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:27:18.526216+08:00","text":"保留，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:27:18.526216+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:27:42.996757+08:00","text":"其實，我待會委員會還有一點時間，我本來還要跟你繼續討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:27:42.996757+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:28:07.467297+08:00","text":"我們保留送院會協商，送院會協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:28:07.467297+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:28:31.937838+08:00","text":"因為這件事情是 105 年就開始了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T16:28:31.937838+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:28:56.408378+08:00","text":"應該是第 9 屆就開始了，可能……不過以賴委員的專業，我都沒有看證據，我就看你\n的來做參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:28:56.408378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:29:20.878919+08:00","text":"好，以上兩案均保留，送院會協商，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:29:20.878919+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:29:45.349459+08:00","text":"散會（9 時 51 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:29:45.349459+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:30:09.820000+08:00","text":"好，現在時間 4 點半，那我們現在開始進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:30:09.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:30:20.792000+08:00","text":"我先跟大家請安一下，我們的行政部門是\n我們劉世芳部長，還有我們中選會的陳副主委朝建。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:30:22.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:30:46.851000+08:00","text":"在場還有我們國民黨團的是許宇甄委員，\n民眾黨團是麥玉珍委員，民進黨團則是吳思瑤幹事長、蔡易餘書記長，還有我們的王美惠委員\n，還有各位媒體記者們，大家好。","quality":0.582},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:30:47.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:31:05.063000+08:00","text":"我們今天協商的主題是針對本院委員傅崐萁等 16 人、許宇甄\n委員等 20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，由我們負責召集來進行黨團\n的協商。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:31:05.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:31:14.611000+08:00","text":"我們先介紹今天列席的官員，內政部部長劉世芳劉部長，還有中選會的陳朝建陳副主\n委，其他的就請參考我們今天的列席名單。","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:31:41.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:31:44.030000+08:00","text":"我們沈伯洋委員、張雅琳委員也到場了。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:31:58.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:32:23.196000+08:00","text":"我們就進入今天的協商，我剛才提過本次協商的主題是傅崐萁委員等 16 人以及許宇甄委員等\n20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，經第 1 會期第 22 次會議決定：逕付\n二讀，併案交付黨團協商。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:32:24.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:32:34.245000+08:00","text":"針對本法案的內容，我想我們就先請國民黨提案的代表許宇甄委員\n做提案的說明。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:32:35.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:32:36.098000+08:00","text":"先進行說明，坐著說明就好了。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:32:44.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:32:48.343000+08:00","text":"主席、各位列席官員、各位委員，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:32:49.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:33:30.440000+08:00","text":"我想這一次針對選罷法的修正案，主要是\n因為在選罷法的施行過程中，我們發覺很多的連署有一些亂象，包括一些錯假連署、抄名冊連\n署或者是死亡連署，我們發覺有很多這樣的問題，甚至很多都是筆跡相同，可是礙於現在的選\n罷法沒有辦法真正的能夠去把這個問題兜出來，只要是有問題，有問題的一定要再寄詢問單給\n本人，如果本人沒有回覆的，這一份連署書又算是正確的、為真的、有效的，我們認為這樣的\n一個方式確實對於罷免有產生很大的一個問題。","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:33:50.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:34:21.851000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望在這過程中能夠讓罷免更為嚴謹\n，其實罷免的核心精神主要是要課責公職人員，而不是為了要讓這些錯假連署或者有這麼多的\n連署亂象而造成讓罷免能夠更為容易，我們希望能夠恢復其嚴謹性，所以我特別提案，就是希\n望能夠把我們公民投票法部分修正條文草案第十二條規定公投連署要提供身分證正反面影本，\n我們的理由是為了防止虛偽連署的情事，也避免破壞公民投票的公正性，也希望大家都能夠關\n注這一個相關的問題。","quality":0.362},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:34:21.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:34:25.534000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:34:25.534000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:34:26.534000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:34:26.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:34:36.142000+08:00","text":"我們提案的委員講完之後，我們先請行政部門做適時的一個答復，然後再請各黨\n團表示意見。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:34:36.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:34:50.636000+08:00","text":"現在有王鴻薇委員到場；另外，今天列席的還有法務部的廖江憲參事，還有司法\n院民事廳的劉素如法官。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:34:56.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:35:01.564000+08:00","text":"針對這個法條的修正，是不是請我們內政部劉世芳部長先表達你的看法？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:35:02.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:35:14.389000+08:00","text":"還是要等我們各黨\n……那委員先講好了，再請行政部門來表示意見。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:35:16.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:35:19.350000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:35:19.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:35:25.292000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思銘委員。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:35:25.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:35:32.833000+08:00","text":"我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了\n358\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n應當有的程序正義。","quality":0.634},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:35:32.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:36:05.974000+08:00","text":"我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案，那個\n時候有涉及門檻的提高，後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查，上個會期的 7 月份發\n生了委員會會議室臨時更換的一些……我認為在臺灣國會史上都創下非常糟的惡例，以致於那\n一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:36:09.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:36:25.790000+08:00","text":"之後許委員的案子撤了，現在是\n新的案子，現在傅崐萁委員的案子跟許宇甄委員的案子是新版的提案，然後在院會是用逕付二\n讀的方式，也就是逕付二讀，內政委員會就沒有審查而直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:36:28.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:12.199000+08:00","text":"上一週\n在協商總預算的時候，我們赫然發現，居然韓國瑜院長召集、院長 level 的朝野協商，在協商總\n預算的那個協商，居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法，所以在那一次（上週）韓\n國瑜院長主持的朝野協商，其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑，今天算是導回正\n確的程序，回到由提案的政黨─國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商，今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有\n的正常程序。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:12.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:20.403000+08:00","text":"但是我也發現了一個問題，也想問一下主席，選罷法這麼重要，憲法第十七條賦予人民選舉\n、罷免、創制、複決的權利，這麼慎重，但沒有經過委員會的審查，因為它是逕付二讀，那今\n天的協商就非常重要。","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:26.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.247000+08:00","text":"主席您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時，是一小時就要結束嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.807000+08:00","text":"我\n們希望能夠……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.928000+08:00","text":"你的協商……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:27.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:36.396000+08:00","text":"你的開會通知上預定會議時間是寫 1 小時，我希望說這麼重要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:36.396000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:44.864000+08:00","text":"OK，那就釐清了，主席沒有這個預定時間這樣的設定，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:37:44.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:37:46.466000+08:00","text":"因為這需要好好的來討論，到 5 點半就是 1 小時啊！","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:06.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:06.804000+08:00","text":"這是第一件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:06.804000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:07.804000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:07.804000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:08.804000+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:07.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:09.245000+08:00","text":"尊重我的發言、尊重我的發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:09.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:29.011000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言，因為這麼重要，\n逕付二讀的話，委員會已經沒有討論，這是憲法第十七條規範的人民的基本權利，當然要好好\n討論，當然我們是希望它應當沒有逕付二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:29.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:38:55.748000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，我也覺得很有疑惑，今天的黨團協商都還沒有進行、還沒有召開，我們剛剛居\n然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午 3 點鐘的朝野協商通知，已經把這個列為第二案，第一\n案是總預算要持續的來討論，第二案就是選罷法。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:38:56.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:05.613000+08:00","text":"所以我們非常質疑難道韓院長認為林思銘委\n員、國民黨團召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:05.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:11.997000+08:00","text":"所以就預先又跳過了程序、預先排了明天就\n要討論選罷法？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:14.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:22.738000+08:00","text":"是韓國瑜院長不信任林思銘、今天會議主席的協調能力嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:22.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:28.442000+08:00","text":"還是說國民黨的朋\n友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:29.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:53.698000+08:00","text":"只排一小時，然後這麼重要、逕付二讀、攸關人民\n基本權利，委員會已經沒有時間、沒有機會討論了，今天預設一個小時就要結束這場協商，甚\n359\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論，明天朝野協商再討論，然後下一關是什麼？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:53.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:58.199000+08:00","text":"就是\n禮拜五院會就可以表決了，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:58.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:39:59.740000+08:00","text":"我想問一下這個程序啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:39:59.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:00.740000+08:00","text":"主席，這是程序問題，要不然\n我可以先針對程序問題。","quality":0.19},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:00.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:01.740000+08:00","text":"好、好，請主席說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:01.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:02.740000+08:00","text":"思瑤，我想今天的協商完全依照我們的議事規則去召集的，也是回應那天你們希望我們再次\n召開這個黨團的協商。","quality":0.064},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:02.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:03.740000+08:00","text":"您知道韓院長已經發了明天的協商通知了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:01.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:27.568000+08:00","text":"我現在是針對我……今天是我的協商，我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員的發言。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:28.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:41.538000+08:00","text":"但是\n我希望大家不要再去講題外話，就針對今天的重點─這五個條文，大家發表自己的看法，因為\n這樣講下去，我講實在話，這樣一直講下去，意見都會重複啦！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:41.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:49.704000+08:00","text":"我想我們現在來協商就是希望\n大家形成共識，若有一致的意見，我們就達成協商，沒有辦法達成協商的話，當然我們就意見\n不一致……","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:49.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:50.504000+08:00","text":"主席，我想繼續，謝謝你的說明。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:40:52.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:40:59.848000+08:00","text":"今天是這個屆期第一次討論選罷法，朝野的委員可以坐下來討論，這是第一次。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:41:00.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:41:05.669000+08:00","text":"我們\n當然希望它是在內政委員會，但是逕付二讀後就到了今天的協商。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:41:05.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:41:13.971000+08:00","text":"所以我希望主席能夠理解，\n會議才剛開始，我是第一個發言的委員，不要說大家又講重複的話、不要扯太多，come on！","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:41:15.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:41:17.882000+08:00","text":"我\n們才剛坐下來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:41:17.882000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:41:18.882000+08:00","text":"希望、希望，你儘量講，我就聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:41:17.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:42:35.633000+08:00","text":"所以說我以歷次選罷法幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告，2015 年修選罷法，將政黨\n補助的門檻由 5%下修至 3.5%，那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員，他在委員會審查\n三次，委員會沒有共識，後續交付朝野協商，協商的次數是兩次，這是同樣的選罷法；2016 年\n選罷法也修了，就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻，也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃\n國昌提案，罷免完全不需要有門檻的那一次，那一次也是陳其邁當召委，在委員會討論五次、\n協商兩次；同樣是選罷法，在 2023 年針對公職候選人的排黑條款，排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委\n員，委員會討論的次數是七次、協商的次數是兩次。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:42:36.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:42:57.870000+08:00","text":"我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉\n罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案，選罷法歷次的修正都由委員會充分討論，討論三次、討論五\n次、討論七次，也有充分的朝野協商，各協商兩次。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:42:58.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:44:07.642000+08:00","text":"所以我真的很衷心希望剛剛思銘委員……\n其實我對思銘委員非常的尊重，您所說的不是只是過水，你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履\n行讓大家討論的這個前提，如果今天能夠讓大家好好的討論，我援引過去選罷法修正花了這麼\n多次、這麼多討論的時間，我非常期待，不要預設了一個立場，思銘委員應該要做的一件事情\n是，也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長，跟他說相信林思銘，你會好好如您所說的，在黨團協\n商的歷程過程當中會好好地讓委員充分表達意見，韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場、認為今\n天協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水，也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報\n360\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n告，無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:44:07.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:07.952000+08:00","text":"否則外界也非\n常疑惑，韓院長就預先排了明天朝野協商要處理選罷法，那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會來處\n理，我不希望發生這樣的事情，這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的職權行使，不應當是快轉、不\n應當是過水、不應當是強渡關山，所以我先起了這個，程序上歷次修選罷法在委員會層級充分\n討論，協商的次數也充分討論，像過去這樣修法的經驗，我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋\n友們、提案的委員們不要為快而快、不要為修而修、不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人\n民的權利。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:08.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:18.215000+08:00","text":"這是程序上的發言，我先報告到這裡，稍後實質法案的內容部分，我也有很多準備\n要討論的內容，再請主席給我時間，謝謝。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:18.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:20.236000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:20.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:38.425000+08:00","text":"那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員：林倩綺委員、翁曉玲委員、蘇巧\n慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪申翰委員、張宏陸委員、陳培瑜委員，大家都很關心這個案子。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:38.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:49.122000+08:00","text":"我想\n明天不管是……因為我們沒有預設立場，如果今天能夠協商達成共識，當然是最好的，但是韓\n院長或許他有他的考量，我們也不要去預設立場說他就一定怎樣怎樣，我是很不喜歡去猜人家\n說怎樣怎樣，反正我們一切按照議事程序走，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:49.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:45:59.819000+08:00","text":"現在請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:45:59.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:46:38.624000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們今天朝野協商，本來收到的就是今天 4 點半大家來協商，但是我們收\n到韓國瑜院長明天排 3 點的協商，一樣是要研商這個選罷法，那我們覺得很奇怪的就是說，有\n這麼急嗎？","quality":0.459},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:46:38.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:47:01.223000+08:00","text":"因為我們知道說今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣，但是如果協商不成就換院長排\n，那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論的情況下就先排了明天的協商，那我們可以預測，就是\n禮拜五要表決了，就是今天、明天、禮拜五，有這麼急嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:47:01.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:47:13.956000+08:00","text":"這個涉及到人民選舉、罷免、創制\n、複決，這是最重要的公民參與政治的權利，這東西多討論一些，用多一點時間讓大家討論又\n會怎樣呢？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:47:16.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:47:38.571000+08:00","text":"何必急著，今天黨團協商、明天院長協商、禮拜五表決，然後就說結束了、三讀通\n過了，然後以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高，以後光是要成案都非常的困難，讓罷免的權利\n……從此以後要看到罷免大概就很困難了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:47:39.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:47:49.920000+08:00","text":"我們就再回到這件事的本源，就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:47:49.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:48:06.133000+08:00","text":"如果這個門檻是不合理的、不合理到你隨便要找人出來罷免某個人都可以罷免成功，那這一次\n基隆市長的罷免就會過了啊，後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:48:07.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:48:24.743000+08:00","text":"可以證明說現在這一個制度所訂的這\n個罷免門檻，你看有些人會被罷免成功，但大部分是罷免失敗，大部分是失敗，所以在現行的\n制度之下，它的門檻是高的，沒那麼簡單。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:48:25.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:48:53.264000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在要討論選罷法，然後把罷免門檻大幅\n增加，而且這個增加是讓未來連成案都產生困難，因為你知道你要去連署罷免，然後你要繳交\n身分證的影本給這個罷免團體，要你交身分證影本給人家，現在大家重視個資的保護，我們要\n把身分證交給人家是何其嚴重的事情？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:48:54.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:49:17.296000+08:00","text":"所以我們認為說在罷免的時候，沒有必要把它的門檻拉\n到說你連讓它成案的難度會高到這樣一個程度，我們還是覺得說大家在程序上要三思，我們多\n一點討論，若今天協商不成，主席你可以再排一次協商，你可以下禮拜再排協商，何必這樣連\n三天連三關？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:49:17.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:49:33.012000+08:00","text":"這樣看起來，你們國民黨、藍白的用意就很清楚了，你們就是禮拜五要用人數的\n優勢強行表決通過，看起來你們目的就是這樣，你就直接講嘛！不然！","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:49:33.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:49:35.253000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們今天的協商","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T16:49:36.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:49:57.300000+08:00","text":"我們今天協商不成，我下禮拜還要排，那我會去跟韓院長說請他明天先不要\n361\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n排，這件事我林思銘有信心，我可以好好的溝通，我今天排完，我下禮拜再排，讓真的關心選\n罷法的人都可以來這裡暢所欲言，讓他多說幾句，這才是民主的真諦。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T16:49:57.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:12.909000+08:00","text":"尤其我們現在要行使的\n這個修法，是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的權利，我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候，是不是在\n討論上再多一點程序的討論，對不對？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:15.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:18.806000+08:00","text":"就像你現在讓我們說，我們大家就覺得我們要表達我們的意見。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:18.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:19.806000+08:00","text":"好，我會讓你們說，但是針對主題講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:18.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:22.728000+08:00","text":"而且我們每一個人，然後我要跟主席講，不能說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:22.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:25.789000+08:00","text":"主席，你不能講說誰在重複發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:27.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:32.832000+08:00","text":"縱使是同樣的一句話，不同的人說就代表不同的民意基礎。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:32.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:41.279000+08:00","text":"我們每一個人，縱使是區域立委跟不分區立委，不分區立委也是有他的選票，他是政\n黨票，都有他的民意基礎。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:41.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:46.113000+08:00","text":"你不可以去說，誰講了，誰又講重複了，所以後面的人就不能講，我們覺得這樣做不\n對，讓大家充分討論。","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:46.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:48.312273+08:00","text":"我會給你們講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:48.312273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:50.511545+08:00","text":"我想大家也尊重我這個主席，因為我不希望聽到就是說同樣一件事情不斷的\n複誦。No！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:50.511545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:52.710818+08:00","text":"我剛才講了，這不是複誦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:52.710818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:54.910091+08:00","text":"所以我希望，你表達你的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:54.910091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:57.109364+08:00","text":"因為我們每個人代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:57.109364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:50:59.308636+08:00","text":"我們代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:50:59.308636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:01.507909+08:00","text":"把意見表達出來，我們就是儘量表達你的意見，但是就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:01.507909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:03.707182+08:00","text":"我儘量表達，但是不能說是重複……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:03.707182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:05.906455+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，你等一下第二輪發言……","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:05.906455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:08.105727+08:00","text":"那我剛剛講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:08.105727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.305000+08:00","text":"第二輪發言都重複的意見，第二輪又是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.425000+08:00","text":"我還沒第二輪。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.505000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:10.505000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:27.633000+08:00","text":"他還沒有第二輪，不要預設立場！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:27.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:29.294000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講別的東西。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:29.294000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:30.535000+08:00","text":"362\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:30.535000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:31.776000+08:00","text":"謝謝，你第二輪講別的東西，我們才會整個聚焦。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:31.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:33.898000+08:00","text":"我對於今天的協商我提出訴求嘛！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:34.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:35.119000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:35.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:37.201000+08:00","text":"上禮拜……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:37.201000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:39.283000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:39.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:40.924000+08:00","text":"我在尊重，我在跟主席溝通啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:41.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:47.250000+08:00","text":"各位，真的，我希望這樣子，大家不要把同樣的事情，第一輪講這樣，第二輪又講一樣，第\n三輪又講這樣，這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:47.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:55.226000+08:00","text":"各位，就這樣了，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:55.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:57.667000+08:00","text":"主席在跟我講重複發言這件事情。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:57.667000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:51:58.667000+08:00","text":"謝謝，好啦，好啦，OK，易餘 OK……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:51:58.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:01.108000+08:00","text":"我現在要說的重點是……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:02.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:05.990000+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛問我，我回答你，我是希望你第二輪發言不要重複。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:05.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:12.012000+08:00","text":"我要說的重點是不要說誰是重複發言，每個人都有代表不同的意志。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:12.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:13.012000+08:00","text":"這我回答你了，希望你第二輪不要一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:12.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:13.532000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會避開，我不會講同樣的東西。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:13.532000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:18.949000+08:00","text":"但是我具體的訴求就是我們看到了韓院長明天也排了協商，所以這代表禮拜五就是要\n排表決了，二讀、三讀下去……","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:18.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:24.366000+08:00","text":"院長他有他的……這個我不能幫他決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:24.366000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:29.783000+08:00","text":"我們這樣看起來的話，就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:29.783000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:35.200000+08:00","text":"你今天叫我們來這裡過水，你叫我們來這邊過水，我們是不接受的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:35.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:40.617000+08:00","text":"好，OK，丁學忠委員也到場參與了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:40.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:46.034000+08:00","text":"現在我們以舉手先後，請許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:46.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:52:46.214000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:52:47.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:53:09.297000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛有特別提到為什麼這個案子會逕付二讀，我來喚醒一下大家的記\n憶，我們其實在內政委員會有排審兩次，一次在這裡，當時民進黨的委員們占領主席台，讓我\n們沒有辦法審查；第二次高金召委又排案了一次，也是一樣，半夜就有人闖進內政委員會，導\n致我們也沒辦法排案審查，經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭，所以為什麼當時會逕付二\n讀，主要是這樣的原因，並不是我們不排案審查，這第一點。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:53:09.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:03.186000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛蔡易餘書記長特別\n有提到說，針對我這次的提案希望能附上身分證影本的部分，他認為個資的問題非常嚴重，可\n是我這邊有一個是蔡易餘委員跟吳秉叡委員的提案，針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文，就是要\n附上身分證影本的提案，表示當時蔡易餘委員既然都覺得要附上身分證影本的提案是正確的\n……","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:03.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:04.186000+08:00","text":"那是發證日期！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:04.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:12.191000+08:00","text":"沒有喔，你的是不管是發證日期或是身分證影本的話，就是認為說，因為你發證影本\n363\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也必須要去對嘛。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:12.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:23.377000+08:00","text":"然後就是我們看到，在上個會期第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他\n們也針對公投法……","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:24.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:25.858000+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡，等一下，等一下，那個不用附影本。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:27.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:28.299000+08:00","text":"我先講完，等一下換你，好不好？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:28.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:29.333000+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:29.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:30.367000+08:00","text":"他有插你的話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:30.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:31.401000+08:00","text":"那個講錯了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:31.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:33.902000+08:00","text":"不是，那我剛剛也沒插你的話，讓我講完你就可以再說明，好不好？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:40.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:54:42.148000+08:00","text":"各位委員，發言委員在發言的時候，大家儘量不要插話，好不好？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:54:42.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:55:07.971000+08:00","text":"另外就是在第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出公投法的修正條文\n草案，吳思瑤委員也是連署人，裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料，貼附本人國民身分證的影本\n，這在第 10 屆的提案，表示說其實有很多民進黨的委員也都認同應該要附上身分證影本，所以\n我覺得這個只是一個資格，你說要怎麼樣，我覺得每個連署人或是提議人，他本來就有那個責\n任要去保護每個人的個資，也就是他收到身分證影本，他要善盡保護的責任，否則現在總統的\n選舉辦法就不用也是要這樣附身分證影本。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T16:55:27.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:55:35.106000+08:00","text":"所以我想這個部分，應該是附上身分證影本只是加\n強對連署的嚴謹性跟公平性，以上。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:55:35.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:55:40.251000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員，我以舉手先後啦，各位委員有舉手我會登記下來。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T16:55:41.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:55:42.073000+08:00","text":"現在請王鴻薇委員\n，再請張宏陸委員準備。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:55:45.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:55:48.118000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，主席也很辛苦。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:55:48.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:56:05.913000+08:00","text":"今天選罷法的協商，大家也可以看到民進黨很大陣仗的來\n做關心跟發言，但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方，我們必須要去做一個澄清。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:56:08.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:56:09.242000+08:00","text":"剛才吳思瑤幹事長\n一直強調說為什麼不能討論呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:56:09.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:56:10.362000+08:00","text":"應該好好在內政委員會討論呀！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:56:10.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:56:48.244000+08:00","text":"可是我想大家都記得，我想大\n家記憶力不是那麼淺，我們的腦袋應該不是金魚腦，在上個會期，當時高金素梅擔任召委，曾\n經有兩次的排審，第一次的排審還排到吳秉叡委員，也就是蔡易餘委員也當共同提案人的案子\n，在那一次大家應該也非常清楚，當時可以討論嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:56:48.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:56:48.424000+08:00","text":"當時可以討論嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:56:48.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:01.566000+08:00","text":"因為民進黨的委員全部\n都占據在主席台上，記不記得？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:01.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:02.447000+08:00","text":"後來我們沒有辦法，只好把會議室改到群賢樓，那個時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:02.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:03.447000+08:00","text":"不是群賢樓，是隔壁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:02.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:02.727000+08:00","text":"不是啦，那是第二次。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:02.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:03.067000+08:00","text":"我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:03.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:03.447000+08:00","text":"有啊，你忘記了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:03.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:57:05.188000+08:00","text":"你忘\n記了，你們占據主席台，我待會會講到，你們占據主席台可能占領的非常習慣了。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:57:31.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:58:04.384000+08:00","text":"在第一次是 7\n月 4 日，7 月 4 日排審，然後沒有辦法，所以當時的召委只好來換會議室，可是那時候占據內政\n委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們，幾乎是軟禁我們相關的議事人員，讓他們無法離開，這就是\n要討論的民進黨黨團，用這樣的方式討論，用軟禁議事人員的方式，讓他不能夠開會，達成不\n能開會的目的。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:58:04.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:58:05.084000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得我現在在這邊，聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談「我們需\n要討論啊」、「充分討論啊」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:58:30.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:58:36.015000+08:00","text":"我覺得可能我們今天需要感謝的是，還好今天民進黨團在這個\n協商會議沒有占領主席台，讓這個協商根本開不成，所以 7 月 4 日是這樣。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:58:36.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:00.847000+08:00","text":"我想吳思瑤委員只\n記得 7 月 8 日那一場，我們換了議場，當天黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能，是不是？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:02.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:16.181000+08:00","text":"我不曉得\n364\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n在凌晨的時候，在整個還沒有開議、還沒有開門的時候，就直接把門打開了，這個事情我覺得\n韓國瑜院長是非常的寬厚，對不對？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:16.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:16.321000+08:00","text":"破壞公物至此。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:20.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:32.252000+08:00","text":"所以請問一下，當時民進黨黨團想要討論的話，為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天不是都在\n開會討論嗎？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:32.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:33.672000+08:00","text":"我不是內政委員會，也大概是 8 點以前嘛，大家來登記發言嘛，來做討論、來做\n陳述嘛。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.679000+08:00","text":"但是能嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.739000+08:00","text":"請問一下，民進黨給討論嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.759000+08:00","text":"民進黨團給討論嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:43.959000+08:00","text":"所以今天在這邊指責國\n民黨團說幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.079000+08:00","text":"急什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.399000+08:00","text":"逕付二讀，為什麼不給討論？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T16:59:44.439000+08:00","text":"不敢討論嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:00:04.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:00:08.231000+08:00","text":"問題是民進黨黨團不給討\n論啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:00:08.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:00:27.342000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講，就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺，當然如果說立法院本來就是講道理\n的地方，大家論述的地方，所以以今天來說，說是韓國瑜院長對我們林思銘書記長沒有信心嗎\n？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:00:27.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:00:41.498000+08:00","text":"我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心，連內政委員會好好的排案，你們都不願意討論，都要\n霸占主席台，請問一下，我們還如何的好好說道理呢？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:00:47.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:00:54.215000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才蔡易餘書記長一直在講說「啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:00:54.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:04.366000+08:00","text":"你們現在就這樣設定啦，今天過水啦，明天就是\n院長做朝野協商，星期五就要表決。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:04.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:16.006000+08:00","text":"」好厲害喔，我也是黨團幹部，我們在黨團內部都沒有討\n論到的事情，哇，你都知道。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:16.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:21.468000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，星期五的設定，應該是民進黨團的設定吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:22.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:34.332000+08:00","text":"應該是\n民進黨團的設定，因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候，已經在立法院附近搶下路權了，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:34.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:34.632000+08:00","text":"搶路權應該是在上個禮拜。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:40.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:40.675000+08:00","text":"所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:40.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:40.975000+08:00","text":"是青鳥設定的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:40.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:41.096000+08:00","text":"是民進\n黨團設定的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:41.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.056000+08:00","text":"是你們控制青鳥，還是青鳥控制你們，我不知道，因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議\n場，忘記了嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.096000+08:00","text":"忘記了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.616000+08:00","text":"上個會期不就在那邊青鳥要要飛進立法院嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:01:42.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:02:19.992000+08:00","text":"好，所以我要講的是\n，要討論、要協商，國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序，包括剛才吳思瑤委員講說星期一的時候覺\n得還是要在內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商，我們也從善如流，我要講的是，我們絕對釋出絕\n對的善意，不會因人廢言。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:02:42.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:02:44.219000+08:00","text":"為什麼今天有這樣的協商呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:02:44.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:02:51.482000+08:00","text":"我們也是從善如流，但是我們真的要\n回頭想一想，到底誰不願意協商？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:02:51.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:02:52.343000+08:00","text":"另外，不願意討論的是你們，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:02:52.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:03:46.759000+08:00","text":"我要特別講的就是說，我相信待會可能民進黨團的同仁會談到，哎呀，怎麼樣的是違背、打\n壓公民的權利，罷免的權利、創制複決等等的權利，那我們要講的是，在我們一些相關的連署\n裡面，有身分證影本的，包含總統的連署，總統選舉的連署也是需要身分證影本，所以這不是\n獨一無二的，這不是獨一無二的。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:03:47.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:16.464000+08:00","text":"另外我們希望能夠確認在整個罷免的過程中，有一些我們過\n去發現的疏漏，或者我們發現有一些其實反而是傷害了罷免的權利，所以我們把它稍做補強，\n沒有提高門檻，只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保沒有假冒的情事。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:16.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:18.406000+08:00","text":"過去確實很多連署會出現死人\n連署的狀況，這個大家也講的非常多了。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:33.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:37.127000+08:00","text":"剛才許宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉叡委員跟蔡易\n餘委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:37.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:38.127000+08:00","text":"我們不用身分證。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:37.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:37.968000+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:37.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:04:38.108000+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:04:38.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:00.204000+08:00","text":"你講的與事實不符。有嗎？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:00.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:01.545000+08:00","text":"我哪一句與事實不符？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:02.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:04.928000+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:04.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:05.928000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:04.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:06.869000+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:06.869000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:07.869000+08:00","text":"365\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:06.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:09.952000+08:00","text":"你在緊張什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:10.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:12.995000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員不要緊張。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:12.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:16.057000+08:00","text":"你講錯了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:16.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:17.098000+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:17.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:18.098000+08:00","text":"是拿發證日期，把它打上去而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:17.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:22.643000+08:00","text":"我還沒唸啊，你怎麼那麼緊張啊？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:22.643000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:24.925000+08:00","text":"你講錯了，你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:24.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:25.425000+08:00","text":"我沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:25.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:26.537000+08:00","text":"你說的根本跟事實不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:26.537000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:27.649000+08:00","text":"你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:27.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:31.896000+08:00","text":"根本沒有，你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:31.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:33.919000+08:00","text":"我是寫填具發證日期。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:33.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:39.848000+08:00","text":"我只講到吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員共同提案的法案，這樣講錯什麼？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:39.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:42.528500+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:42.528500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:45.209000+08:00","text":"你說要身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:45.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:46.870000+08:00","text":"我沒有講，我還沒講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:46.870000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:47.870000+08:00","text":"有啦，你講了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:47.870000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:48.870000+08:00","text":"你講錯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:48.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:49.991000+08:00","text":"我沒有講錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:51.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:51.252000+08:00","text":"調影帶好不好？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:51.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:51.712000+08:00","text":"好，你去調。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:51.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:53.693000+08:00","text":"調影帶啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:53.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:57.335000+08:00","text":"不要插我的話，不要插我的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:57.335000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:58.335000+08:00","text":"調一下影帶看有沒有講錯嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:57.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:05:58.996000+08:00","text":"你不要插我的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:05:58.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:06:00.056000+08:00","text":"講錯了，一直誤導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:06:00.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:07:06.792000+08:00","text":"我現在就來唸一下吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員等 21 人所提案的案由，他說鑑於近幾次\n罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書，顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重，讓有心人士藉大量的個人\n資料假冒提議連署，已經違反個人的資料保護，且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇\n，若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署，不可不謂已足以生損害於公眾或他人，為了避免假冒情事\n的發生，爰擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案，以完善罷免制度規定。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:07:08.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:06.565000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的\n是，我們現在覺得整個罷免流程有一些流弊，有一些疏失，甚至吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員都認\n為這樣的連署制度漏洞嚴重，所以之前吳秉叡委員有提案，只是後來你們撤案了，但是這不代\n表這些問題已經被解決了，所以民進黨撤案，國民黨基於負責任的態度，提出我們的版本，一\n樣的出發點，也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞，也是一樣去把這些可能產生的流弊加以解決。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:08.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:28.509000+08:00","text":"366\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n所以請問一下，你不能說民進黨提案好棒棒，就是什麼要減少流弊等等，國民黨提案就是危害\n到公民的罷免權，不要這樣好不好？","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:29.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:38.912000+08:00","text":"永遠都是綠能你不能，這樣子的標準是不應該的，不要綠\n能你不能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:40.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:46.134000+08:00","text":"再來，即使內容不相同，不是完全相同……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:46.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:47.134000+08:00","text":"你承認了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:47.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:48.134000+08:00","text":"對，你講了，內容不相同！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:47.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:49.655000+08:00","text":"我講了，所以呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:51.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:51.816000+08:00","text":"所以啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:51.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:54.151000+08:00","text":"就是內容不相同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:54.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:56.033000+08:00","text":"那所以啊，你讓我講話啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:56.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.076000+08:00","text":"你剛才說我亂講，說我講錯……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.076000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:00.076000+08:00","text":"我沒有說身分證，你講錯了啊。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.817000+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.817000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:00.817000+08:00","text":"你第七十六條內容……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:08:59.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:00.918000+08:00","text":"我到現在為止講錯什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:00.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:01.918000+08:00","text":"他承認不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:01.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:02.918000+08:00","text":"請尊重發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:02.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:03.918000+08:00","text":"他在跟我對話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:00.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:01.358000+08:00","text":"我到底講錯什麼？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:01.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:02.358000+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:02.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:03.358000+08:00","text":"他現在是在問我話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:01.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:03.601000+08:00","text":"到現在到底講錯什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:03.601000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:18.878000+08:00","text":"不一樣啊，你第七十六條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:18.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:22.300000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們尊重委員的發言，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:24.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:25.682000+08:00","text":"我在講話，我還在講啊！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:25.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:26.683000+08:00","text":"你手上就有，還沒說完嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:26.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:28.144000+08:00","text":"我還沒講完，你在緊張什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:28.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:29.144000+08:00","text":"把它唸出來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:28.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:28.924000+08:00","text":"我還沒講完嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:28.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:30.185000+08:00","text":"等他講完就 5 點半了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:30.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:31.346000+08:00","text":"對不對，我還沒講完你在緊張什麼嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:31.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:32.346000+08:00","text":"等一下把它全部唸出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:31.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:32.707000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到，我現在就要講了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:32.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:32.927000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:49.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:49.917000+08:00","text":"不要緊張，對不對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:49.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:50.917000+08:00","text":"是你緊張不敢唸吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:49.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:52.321000+08:00","text":"我幹嘛緊張，我現在就要唸啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:52.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:54.888750+08:00","text":"條文唸出來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:54.888750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:09:57.456500+08:00","text":"367\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:09:57.456500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:10:00.024250+08:00","text":"不要拖嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:10:00.024250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:10:02.592000+08:00","text":"不要緊張！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:10:02.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:10:03.292000+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:10:03.292000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:10:04.493000+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:10:04.493000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:10:05.694000+08:00","text":"誰在緊張啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:10:05.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:11:39.165000+08:00","text":"以吳秉叡委員和蔡易餘委員共同提案的版本來看，有我們國民身分證統一編號，還有\n發證日期，還有戶籍地址分村（里）等等之類的，所以這個版本比較不一樣的地方就是增加了\n「發證日期」，而國民黨的版本再做精進，除了發證日期之外，也參考了總統副總統選罷法裡\n面有關於總統副總統連署的規定，在連署的過程裡面也要求要有身分證影本，我們認為，選舉\n總統跟副總統非常重要，不應該出現什麼抄名冊、去抄公會名冊，甚至有一些死人連署等等狀\n況；同樣的，在罷免也是一樣，我們也尊重公民的罷免權，但是我們也體會到，如同吳秉叡跟\n蔡易餘委員所提到這些相關的流弊，所以我們提出來的版本是要有身分證影本還有發證日期。","quality":0.749},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:11:42.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:11:48.427000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，其實大家都有注意到在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題，當然，民進黨團說\n：你們急什麼！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:11:48.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:11:48.567000+08:00","text":"你們怕什麼！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:11:48.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:11:50.588000+08:00","text":"你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:03.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:23.472000+08:00","text":"我要跟大家報告的是，剛才\n我忘記是蔡易餘委員還是吳思瑤委員提到，像之前結束不久的謝國樑罷免案，事實上，謝國樑\n不但是過關，而且算是過關得滿漂亮的，所以其實我們……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:23.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:27.512500+08:00","text":"就不要怕罷免！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:27.512500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:31.553000+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:31.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:31.893000+08:00","text":"我在講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:32.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:34.794000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:37.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:37.575000+08:00","text":"給你們拍拍手！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:38.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:38.515000+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:39.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:40.035000+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:42.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:51.238000+08:00","text":"我們是基於整體來考量，否則今天如果按照謝國樑經驗，我們\n幹嘛怕罷免啊！對啊！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:51.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:12:53.858000+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:12:53.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:01.392000+08:00","text":"我們沒有怕罷免，因為只要正面對決，所以我要講的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:01.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:02.392000+08:00","text":"不要怕罷免！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:02.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:03.392000+08:00","text":"我告訴你啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:03.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:04.392000+08:00","text":"請尊重一下發言委員好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:04.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:05.392000+08:00","text":"讓她繼續講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:04.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:06.595000+08:00","text":"這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:16.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:21.850000+08:00","text":"不會黨意凌駕民意，然後你想想看，我真的是不\n解啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:24.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:29.952000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘副書記長，我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:29.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:34.213000+08:00","text":"我這個版本不用身分證正反面影本！對嘛！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:34.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:38.874000+08:00","text":"我們法案很多，大家都有不同版本，大家來討論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:38.874000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:39.874000+08:00","text":"我那個版本，請看一下說明，說明欄你讀一下啦！","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:38.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:45.698000+08:00","text":"好，待會你來講！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:45.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:46.058000+08:00","text":"我剛才都沒有講錯，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:46.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:52.221000+08:00","text":"增加……小而且少用的獨特個資身分證發證日期……反正不是說……身分證正反面影\n本放進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:52.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:13:58.406000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，這個版本好不好？你說！你說！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:13:58.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:00.108000+08:00","text":"你說你共同提案的版本好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:01.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:02.350000+08:00","text":"你提案的版\n本好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:02.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:04.331000+08:00","text":"368\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:04.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:04.752000+08:00","text":"不用有正反影本……不是！不是！","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:05.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:06.373000+08:00","text":"你這個提案的版本好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:10.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:10.777000+08:00","text":"我覺得我的版本一般般。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:12.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:12.478000+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:12.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:12.518000+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:12.518000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:15.920000+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:15.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:19.322000+08:00","text":"在場人員：支持蔡易餘版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:19.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:20.663000+08:00","text":"我沒辦法支持啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:24.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:25.686000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:27.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:29.428000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:30.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:31.990000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！好啦！好啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:31.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:35.112000+08:00","text":"我們今天不要處理了，我再提！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:35.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:36.593000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:38.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:40.235000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:40.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:41.235000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:41.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:42.235000+08:00","text":"我再提一個！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:42.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:43.235000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:41.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:42.477000+08:00","text":"我們幫你提啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:42.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:45.820000+08:00","text":"不要你們幫我提！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:45.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:48.242000+08:00","text":"你們寫的不好！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:48.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:56.446000+08:00","text":"你們把它當作垃圾的東西，你們因為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:56.446000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:14:58.857500+08:00","text":"我們是完全不一樣！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:14:58.857500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:01.269000+08:00","text":"那個只是再加填入資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:01.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:06.961000+08:00","text":"所以蔡易餘委員，如果我是你，我就哭哭啦！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:07.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:19.572000+08:00","text":"我會覺得我自己很努力提出的版本，結\n果為了你們要去占領主席臺，其實那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸！No！No！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:19.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:20.572000+08:00","text":"你們的版本就是不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:19.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:31.722000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號，我要再 recall 你們的記憶好不好？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:33.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:33.223000+08:00","text":"怎麼記憶會這麼淺咧！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:33.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:34.064000+08:00","text":"記憶這麼淺，對\n不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:34.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:38.406000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號就是要討論吳秉叡的版本……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:38.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:15:50.920000+08:00","text":"增加門檻……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T17:15:50.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:03.434000+08:00","text":"7 月 4 日是你這個版本喔！No！No！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:03.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:08.217000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，你把你版本、提案當垃圾……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:08.217000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:12.480000+08:00","text":"有……跟你的版本都有喔！對！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:12.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:13.261000+08:00","text":"他很清楚啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:13.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:15.565750+08:00","text":"他已經撤案，但高金還是要排。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:15.565750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:17.870500+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:17.870500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:20.175250+08:00","text":"他撤案了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:20.175250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:22.480000+08:00","text":"我們撤案了啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:22.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:27.183000+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講你撤案，你幹嘛撤案！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:27.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:28.965000+08:00","text":"你告訴我你幹嘛撤案！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:28.965000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:32.287000+08:00","text":"我們撤案不行嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:32.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:35.349000+08:00","text":"因為你們要占領主席臺嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:36.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:39.612000+08:00","text":"因為你們把 7 月 4 號……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:39.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:40.612000+08:00","text":"都你在說，換人說了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:40.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:41.612000+08:00","text":"你講這麼久了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:39.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:56.524000+08:00","text":"我會留給你，王委員，沒關係，我一定會留給你講，但是我一定要還原，不然大家忘\n記了，我很害怕！","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:56.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:57.524000+08:00","text":"讓大家把自己的意思講完。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:57.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:16:58.524000+08:00","text":"369\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:16:58.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:04.125000+08:00","text":"大家忘記了，講來講去，好像是我們不讓你們做什麼……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:04.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:05.045000+08:00","text":"主席，你都只制止民進黨委員的發言，你為什麼不制止王鴻薇？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:05.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:07.245000+08:00","text":"你都只打斷民進黨委員的發言，你只打斷蔡易餘委員的發言！","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:17.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:21.849000+08:00","text":"主席不公啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:23.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:24.610000+08:00","text":"下一個是誰發言？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:24.610000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:25.610000+08:00","text":"明明就是輪到張宏陸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:25.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:34.394000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們就是一定要黨派穿插發言，不可能每一個都這樣，麥玉珍講一下再換張宏陸\n……","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:34.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:37.178500+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是這樣講的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:37.178500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:39.963000+08:00","text":"先讓主席說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:39.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:48.946000+08:00","text":"各位，我們協商，各個黨的意見我們都要聽，所以我們現在請民眾黨，因為第一輪他第一次\n發言，所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪發言。對啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:48.946000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:53.565333+08:00","text":"各黨團都要有第一輪發言，他只有一個人，尊重他！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:53.565333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:17:58.184667+08:00","text":"不要插話！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:17:58.184667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:18:02.804000+08:00","text":"我們非常尊重他，他也可以 30 分鐘，這樣就超過 5 點半了。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:18:02.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:18:03.165000+08:00","text":"我沒有那麼會講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:18:03.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:18:17.964500+08:00","text":"沒關係！感謝！感謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:18:17.964500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:18:32.764000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:18:32.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:18:52.791000+08:00","text":"我想要跟大家講，因為我們是要協調，大家要協\n商，的確，選罷法在實務上就是存有很多的問題，所以我們才要去修，因為大家覺得不公平，\n特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞，不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出修法，所以每一\n個人都知道這個是不完整的，包含死人連署或者抄樁腳名單等等，就是有這些亂象，進而嚴重\n的影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力，還有無視連署真實表達的意義。","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:18:52.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:39.721000+08:00","text":"選罷法中罷免制度的設計，應該就是汰除機制，而不是為政黨的服務，所以為了維護選罷法\n，我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本，但是我們是有幾個堅持，為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性，唯\n有透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序，才能避免連署的假象，還有就是讓罷免的制度更透明，所以\n我們台灣民眾黨秉持的就是理性、務實、科學的理念，對於選罷法的修正討論，我們不贊成盲\n目的提高罷免門檻。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:39.721000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:43.163500+08:00","text":"從之前大家霸占主席臺的時候，我也是一直在表態這個問題，所以我要進\n來看到一堆人的時候，我也嚇到了，今天不是相干的人，怎麼都在這裡啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:43.163500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:46.606000+08:00","text":"370\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:46.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:50.048500+08:00","text":"什麼不相干？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:50.048500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:53.491000+08:00","text":"沒有不相干！有！有！尊重！尊重！","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:53.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:53.671000+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:19:53.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:19:53.731000+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:21.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:25.541000+08:00","text":"好，如果都相干大家都被罷免，因為大家都\n是委員嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:26.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:27.381000+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:27.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:30.983000+08:00","text":"因為大家都有機會被罷免，不是只有國民黨還是誰，大家都會有機\n會，因為每一個人……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:30.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:31.983000+08:00","text":"你說得對，不相干的人也進來了……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:31.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:32.983000+08:00","text":"那是陳智菡啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:32.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:33.983000+08:00","text":"陳智菡！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:33.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:34.983000+08:00","text":"先讓麥委員講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:31.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:33.904000+08:00","text":"這些人都是助理來提供協助，不會不相干，但是他也是我的助理，也可以來，是主任\n嘛！","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:33.904000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:58.221000+08:00","text":"那……你說不相干，我跟你都不分區耶……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:58.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:20:58.221000+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:20:58.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:07.927000+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完，你們就打斷了，我是說不相干內政委員會的委員，畢\n竟平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員，很和樂，大家來討論，對不對？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:07.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:20.213000+08:00","text":"但是那天我進來，我自\n己也嚇到，怎麼那麼多不同委員會的委員都在這裡，我以為大家在辦什麼活動，是不是公聽會\n？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:20.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:22.414000+08:00","text":"大家同樂啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:24.135000+08:00","text":"我才知道你們來這邊開 party 嘛！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:24.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:27.736000+08:00","text":"所以我後面才知道，我沒有參與到嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:28.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:32.957000+08:00","text":"因為我不敢\n進來，大家說你不要進來，等一下被他們打的話，沒有人保護你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:33.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:21:36.858000+08:00","text":"我就說，我不知道是怎麼回\n事，所以我就不進來，我只有簽名，然後等開會，但是後來就沒有開會。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:21:37.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:22:19.140000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子，所以我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻，我們從頭到尾都是這樣子的表態，因為\n對公民權利還有過渡的機制，民眾黨主張應該比照總統副總統選舉的連署程序，要求要有身分\n證，以保連署的真實性，這就是預防死人連署的亂象，也確保罷免程序的正當性，因為每一個\n委員都是一票一票選出來的，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:22:19.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:22:38.310000+08:00","text":"我們選舉的時候，身分證都要去看清楚，否則對當選的\n人進行罷免的時候也很不公平，所以我們要求要公平，所以才不會亂用政治的工具。","quality":0.393},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:22:38.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:23:04.782000+08:00","text":"選罷法的修正關係到整體選舉體制的公正性，還有我們臺灣寶島的民主價值，我們呼籲大家\n，不管是任何人，因為大家都是選民選出來的，我們要理性的討論。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:23:04.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:23:17.395000+08:00","text":"關於這個選罷法，大家要\n達成共識，看看怎麼樣比較好，因為不是只有國民黨被罷免，民進黨也可能被罷免，對不對？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:23:17.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:23:18.835000+08:00","text":"未來我們民眾黨很多立委如果是用選票選上來的，不是政黨票選上的，也有可能被罷免，對不\n對？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:23:18.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:23:47.102000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望，每一個人不僅選舉公平，罷免也要公平，這樣子的話才不會好不容易花很\n多精神選上了，但是要罷免時卻有證件不足隨便簽連署的情況，這樣子的話對大家都不公平。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:23:47.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:24:12.594000+08:00","text":"也就是因為這樣，看看要怎麼樣提出修正，讓其更健全的制度，展現我們應有的效率，讓臺灣\n的選舉可以更加進步，我們希望是這樣，所以今天在此就是表達我們的立場，選罷法我們要去\n修改，但是門檻我們真的希望還是要嚴謹，對大家最公平，最有保障，這個就是我們的發言，\n謝謝大家。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T17:24:12.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:24:13.594000+08:00","text":"371\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:24:12.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:24:12.934000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員，充分表達民眾黨的立場。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:24:12.934000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:24:43.928000+08:00","text":"申翰等一下，因為宏陸先舉手，請張宏陸委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:24:43.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:25:06.283000+08:00","text":"我覺得，修正選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身的利益是有相關聯的，我們當一個立法\n委員，利益迴避應該是最基本的，當修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下，我\n個人認為，其實應該要充分的討論。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:25:07.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:25:30.598000+08:00","text":"剛剛聽了大家都這樣講，好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論，則我覺得我們應該就是在委\n員會可以充分的討論，而且我覺得，如果要修這個法，因為公投法也有連署的問題，我覺得我\n們應該一併討論，一併來處理，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:25:30.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:25:33.401000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:25:35.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:25:55.078000+08:00","text":"因此，有兩個理由，第一個，這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關，有利益迴避的問題，如果\n沒有充分的討論，我覺得很難對社會大眾交代，這是第一個；第二個，我認為要討論的話，連\n公投法也應該要一起討論，對不對？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:25:55.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:26:01.082000+08:00","text":"我記得上上屆在修公投法的時候，國民黨也是極力的反對\n啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:26:01.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:26:21.776000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣的情況之下，我們大家一起好好坐下來，把公投法也一起拿來檢視，把選罷法\n也一起拿來檢視，好好的討論，這樣子才不會立法院只修一個選罷法，卻把公投法放在那邊，\n那在臺灣就會變成連署的方式有好幾種，對不對？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:26:21.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:26:51.802000+08:00","text":"就剛剛大家講的，總統的有一種連署，選罷法的好像又跟總統的比較相似，然後公投法又要\n綁在那邊，我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法院所有立法委員可以做出來的事情，所以我在這邊\n跟主席報告，剛剛我聽大家好像都有說，好啊！","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:26:51.802000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:26:52.802000+08:00","text":"就充分討論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T17:26:52.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:11.067000+08:00","text":"在委員會要討論，所以我們就\n一起把所有跟選舉相關的法令拿出來大家好好討論，主席，我的具體建議是這樣，我們立法院\n針對跟自己有利益相關的案子來做這樣的處理，我覺得比較能夠說服大眾，好不好？主席。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:12.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:13.768000+08:00","text":"謝謝張宏陸委員的發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:14.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:17.068000+08:00","text":"接下來請李柏毅委員，他現在離開，是不是？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:17.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:18.749000+08:00","text":"好，我們就請洪申翰\n委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:18.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:19.749000+08:00","text":"在此宣告，洪申翰委員發言完畢換沈伯洋委員，然後換蘇巧慧委員，然後吳思瑤委員，\n然後張雅琳委員，然後翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:19.749000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:27:20.749000+08:00","text":"好，洪申翰委員發言完畢，我們再請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:27:20.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:28:18.961000+08:00","text":"主席，我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣，這份國民黨的文宣是 2019 年的國民黨文\n宣，大家看它上面還印著朱立倫主席，還有朱立倫主席的簽名，大家看一下內容，我唸一下給\n大家聽，內容寫說：民進黨提案，公投連署需附身分證影本，這是侵害隱私，提高連署難度，\n下面還寫「全民護公投，民進黨殺公投」。","quality":0.546},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:28:19.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:29:00.955000+08:00","text":"國民黨的文宣裡面清楚得寫明，需要附身分證正反\n影本是在殺公投的事情，當年藍委強力杯葛公投法，2019 年的時候，甚至拿三秒膠封鎖門鎖，\n因為要強力阻擋公投法，所以我跟大家說，當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身分證影本的\n，後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議，還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議，所以將要\n附身分證影本的規定給拿掉了。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:29:02.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:30:16.617000+08:00","text":"因此，最後在 2019 年 6 月修正的公投法版本裡面，就是不用附\n身分證正反影本的，因為那個時候不管是公民社會、公民團體或在野黨，包括國民黨，包括當\n時的時代力量，我相信也包括當時的黃國昌委員，黃國昌委員當時也是立法委員，在 2019 年的\n時候，都說要附身分證正反影本是會傷害人民的個資，提高連署的難度，這都是國民黨文宣的\n內容，我很少拿國民黨的文宣，我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣，我一個字一個字的唸，這就是\n國民黨文宣的內容，當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識，確實覺得身分證影本是有傷害\n372\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個資的疑慮，所以大家一起把它給拿掉了，我們民進黨團也同意了，當時的行政院也同意了，\n所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊「花」啦，當時大家就一起做成了這個共識。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:30:20.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:30:44.990000+08:00","text":"結果現在國\n民黨又拿著身分證正反面影本要來魚目混珠，民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身分證的發證\n日期，那不用把整份身分證的影像全部交出去啊，你只要在家裡把那個發證日期填上去就好，\n在上面不會有其他的個資、不會有整張身分證正反面影本的個資啊！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:30:47.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:30:59.544000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨要做的事情很\n簡單，他就是要讓民眾不敢連署，現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:30:59.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:02.427000+08:00","text":"很重視被詐騙的問題對\n不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:02.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:26.498000+08:00","text":"國民黨咬準了民眾這個心理，知道如果要連署就要把身分證正反面影本交出去，民眾就\n算很想要罷免那個政治人物也不敢交出去，在連署這一關就把整個罷免給封殺掉，還不用去調\n到時候同意票的門檻喔，在更前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉，這是國民黨現在要做的事情啊！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:26.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:40.284000+08:00","text":"大\n家看這份文宣，主席，我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這份文宣、有沒有發到你臉書上我不知\n道啦，這個是有朱立倫主席在上面的啊，欸，徐宇甄委員看一下，朱立倫主席在上面還有簽名\n啊，當年大家用這個說法……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:40.284000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:42.995000+08:00","text":"拿一個文宣出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:42.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:45.706000+08:00","text":"喔，No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:45.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:31:47.367000+08:00","text":"你們可以來證實那時候是不是啊！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:31:49.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:32:26.611000+08:00","text":"我現在講很簡單，其實大家標準一致啦，當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院也從善如流，\n認為這樣做確實有疑慮，所以我們把它拿掉了，我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識\n，已經不是一個議題了；但沒想到在經過了 5 年之後，國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦，我要說怕大罷\n免潮應該是檢討自己，不要又去激怒人民啦，不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:32:27.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:32:29.554000+08:00","text":"結果現在國民黨跟民\n眾黨幹的事情是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:32:29.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:32:47.530000+08:00","text":"是我要繼續激怒你、而且我要把你的權利給沒收，用我過去說會侵害隱\n私的做法把你的罷免給沒收，就這麼簡單！","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:32:47.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:33:02.979000+08:00","text":"然後現在要魚目混珠，身分證的發證日期跟身分證\n影本就是完全不一樣的事情，剛才王鴻薇委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情，裡面個資的密度跟\n強度是完全不一樣的事情，但又要魚目混珠。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:33:03.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.446000+08:00","text":"拜託不要搞這一套，你們在閹割人民的權利，這\n就是閹割人民權利，這是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛，「侵害隱私」這四個字大家不會看不懂，\n為什麼當年是侵害隱私，5 年後的現在要附身分證正反面影本就不是侵害隱私？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.506000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.666000+08:00","text":"給個理\n由啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:33:20.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:33:42.920000+08:00","text":"當年民進黨後來也從善如流認為這有個資疑慮、有個資風險，所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛\n，2019 年 6 月最後的投票結果大家可以看一下嘛！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T17:33:45.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:07.498000+08:00","text":"現在在野黨說這個總統副總統選舉罷免法，\n對不起，那個是 1995 年修的法律，那是法律，但是這麼簡單，我們最近在討論身分證正反面影\n本的問題是在 2019 年，為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:07.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:09.287000+08:00","text":"你可以結束讓我講了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:09.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:13.418000+08:00","text":"誒，我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:13.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:13.799000+08:00","text":"不是啊，他一直問我啊……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:13.799000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:14.842000+08:00","text":"我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:14.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:15.844000+08:00","text":"他一直要我給個說法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:15.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:16.844000+08:00","text":"我沒有要給個說法，我講完嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:16.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:17.844000+08:00","text":"這樣子，鴻薇委員，讓他講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:17.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:18.844000+08:00","text":"373\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:18.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:19.844000+08:00","text":"讓我講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:19.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:20.844000+08:00","text":"好，我講完，為什麼、我只問一個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:20.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:21.844000+08:00","text":"才 8 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:21.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:22.844000+08:00","text":"儘快講完啦，OK 齁，你講你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:22.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:23.844000+08:00","text":"他講 22 分鐘，為什麼要求我儘快講完？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:18.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:22.274000+08:00","text":"為什麼當年修公投法的時候，行政院的版本有需附身分證正反面影本的時候，國民黨","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:44.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:46.294000+08:00","text":"誒，總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:47.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:48.195000+08:00","text":"為什麼當年不用這個理由？","quality":1},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:49.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:52.678000+08:00","text":"因為現在要被罷免\n的是國民黨的委員嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:53.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:54.519000+08:00","text":"就這麼簡單嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:55.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:57.321000+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:57.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:34:58.782000+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:34:58.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:00.303000+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:01.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:03.765000+08:00","text":"我們只要求一件事情啦，未來罷免……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:03.765000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:05.306000+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:05.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:07.487000+08:00","text":"誒，為什麼要打斷？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:07.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:08.487000+08:00","text":"要罷免許智傑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:07.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:08.227000+08:00","text":"為什麼要打斷？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:08.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:09.588000+08:00","text":"我們只希望很簡單……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:09.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:11.273000+08:00","text":"讓我說好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:11.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:19.178000+08:00","text":"接下來罷免可能有藍有綠、可能也有白啦，但我只要求一件事情，不要閹割人民的權\n利、不要侵犯人民的隱私，就這麼簡單啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:20.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:20.338000+08:00","text":"為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:20.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:23.060000+08:00","text":"為什麼國民黨\n現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私、甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:23.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.209000+08:00","text":"個資的問題後面\n就是詐騙的問題，這樣子一個法案為什麼國民黨要強推？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.349000+08:00","text":"毫無道理嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.469000+08:00","text":"就是政治考慮嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.689000+08:00","text":"不要\n再講什麼民主了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:39.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.209000+08:00","text":"閹割人民權利的政黨、兩個在野政黨聯合起來，還講什麼民主？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.530000+08:00","text":"就這麼簡\n單嘛，就這一張文宣就講完了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.570000+08:00","text":"這是誰做的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.710000+08:00","text":"這民黨做的嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.870000+08:00","text":"這是國民黨做的啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:35:40.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:35:41.230000+08:00","text":"拜託國民\n黨不要跟人民對幹啦，怕被罷免的話就檢討自己，而不是檢討人民的權利啦！","quality":0.371},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:07.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:19.769000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨幹的\n事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利、閹割人民的權利啦！拜託！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:19.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:20.750000+08:00","text":"我就講到這邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:20.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:23.732000+08:00","text":"對不起，我的時間不到王鴻薇委員的二分之一。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:23.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:24.913000+08:00","text":"那是哪位委員的助理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:25.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:25.833000+08:00","text":"那個請他……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:25.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:26.474000+08:00","text":"哪一個助理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:26.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:27.574000+08:00","text":"這是我的助理。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:28.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:30.016000+08:00","text":"對，我想大家直播可以調帶子就好了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:30.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:31.016000+08:00","text":"他是拍我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:30.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:30.456000+08:00","text":"他拍我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:31.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:38.322000+08:00","text":"不是，申翰，我們維持秩序啦，你就調帶，到時候調你的直播帶就好了，好不好？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:38.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:38.682000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:38.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:40.303000+08:00","text":"我把它講完……\n374\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:40.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:43.465000+08:00","text":"助理儘量不要進到我們議場這邊來，站在後面就好了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:44.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:45.927000+08:00","text":"好，以上。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:45.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:48.448000+08:00","text":"主席，我們把這道理講在這個地方，要講道理大家來講。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:48.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:51.150000+08:00","text":"不要拍我們來幫你衝流量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:51.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:36:58.812000+08:00","text":"要講道理大家來講，但請國民黨不要硬幹、不要跟人民為敵、不要閹割人民的權利。謝謝。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:36:58.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:01.717250+08:00","text":"好謝謝洪申翰委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:01.717250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:04.622500+08:00","text":"翁曉玲委員第一次發言，我們請翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:04.622500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:07.527750+08:00","text":"兩套標準，綠能你不能，不能拍吳思瑤，只能拍王鴻薇跟許宇甄嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:07.527750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:10.433000+08:00","text":"那不一樣啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:10.433000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:13.338250+08:00","text":"好，我想要首先謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:13.338250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:16.243500+08:00","text":"重點是羅智強他拍人家還說謊，羅智強說謊，重點是羅智強說謊，他明明有拍卻說他\n是在自拍，是羅智強說謊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:16.243500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:19.148750+08:00","text":"重點是他說他在自拍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:19.148750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:22.054000+08:00","text":"不是不可以拍，是他說謊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:22.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:27.897000+08:00","text":"OK，輪我說話了吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:40.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:37:41.723000+08:00","text":"大家已經發表完意見了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:37:41.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:16.691000+08:00","text":"我要謝謝洪申翰委員，剛剛有提到\n2019 年的時候，行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法，我必須說你們真是有先見之明，知\n道之後的選舉環境極其惡劣，出現了很多罷免案的連署提議還有各方面提議人的連署都有造假\n的這些問題，這也是為什麼我們這次要提出這個選罷法，法律本來就是會與時俱進，要隨著時\n空環境的轉變來滾動式修正檢討，如果說當時 2019 年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案你們\n認為它是具有正當性，畢竟我們這個任何一個……","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:16.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:20.121000+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:20.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:23.551000+08:00","text":"對，是，因為當時你們也許不覺得那時候的選舉環境、罷免的環境極其惡劣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:23.551000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:26.981000+08:00","text":"你幹嘛假設我們覺得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:26.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:30.411000+08:00","text":"我們就拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:30.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:33.841000+08:00","text":"可是現在改變了，現在確實出現許多連署人填的資料是假的，造假的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:33.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:33.901000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:33.901000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:41.319667+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:41.319667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:48.738333+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:48.738333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:56.157000+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:56.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:38:59.198000+08:00","text":"每個黨都有，你們的更厲害、更嚴重！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:38:59.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:05.181000+08:00","text":"如果你們不擔心的話，為什麼你們要反對現在\n的修法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:05.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:06.902000+08:00","text":"沒有這個道理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:07.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:25.209000+08:00","text":"如果你們認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權，那麼所有的連署書\n出去都必須要是真實的，為什麼要擔心附上國民身分證正反面影本還有填上發證日期會有什麼\n侵害隱私？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:25.209000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:26.209000+08:00","text":"因為侵害隱私權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:25.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:53.439000+08:00","text":"現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了罷免連署書然後說以致於造成詐騙的猖狂，會有詐騙\n的問題都是民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團，還好意思在那裡講我們現在寫個什麼連署書\n375\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n然後填一些資料就有可能會洩漏個資、會造成詐騙。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:53.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:55.360000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，那總統副總統選罷法為\n什麼你們不提出來修正咧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:55.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:39:55.720000+08:00","text":"就來修啊！對呀！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:39:55.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:40:31.977000+08:00","text":"我要講的就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們要保護的是整個罷免案\n具有正當性，從一開始的提議到連署，每一關每一個環節都是符合真實性的，我們不容許有任\n何造假的連署書，更何況填上連署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:40:35.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:40:42.700000+08:00","text":"否則怎麼會知道到底寫上去\n的身分證字號是真是假、出生年月日是不是正確、戶籍地址是不是正確？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:40:42.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:03.726000+08:00","text":"所以附上國民身分證\n的正反面影印本不是正好可以讓相關的機關便於佐證，同時也可以讓募集連署的單位更好可以\n去辨別哪一個是真假，這個是有意義的修法，不是沒有意義的修法。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:04.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:09.571000+08:00","text":"民進黨常常都是昨是今非\n，以前你們所提出來的法案……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:09.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:10.571000+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:10.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:11.571000+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:11.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:12.571000+08:00","text":"至少我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:12.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:13.571000+08:00","text":"你都想笑了，翁曉玲自己都想笑了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:12.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:14.316000+08:00","text":"你們就是昨是今非，以前你們的提案就可以，現在我們的提案就不行。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:14.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:15.316000+08:00","text":"你自己都要笑出來","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:14.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:14.556000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要笑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:14.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:41:48.280000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得很合理啊，因為時空環境改變，我們不知道民進黨政府執\n政之後整個的選舉罷免環境越來越糟糕啊，越來越多的弊端出現，然後中選會也不查清楚，都\n是個案的選擇判斷，所以當然要修法修得清清楚楚，保護個資難道不是連署單位的責任嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:41:48.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:05.670000+08:00","text":"他\n今天募集到連署人的身分證影本當然要保護好，如果大家有疑慮不敢去寫，那就代表也質疑這\n個連署單位本身是有問題的，所以就整個法的邏輯、法理來講是絕對站得住腳的。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:06.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:07.854000+08:00","text":"所以我說我\n很謝謝洪委員，剛剛你提出了 2019 年當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:07.854000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:08.854000+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:07.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:08.014000+08:00","text":"為什麼拿掉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:08.014000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:17.775000+08:00","text":"因為大家覺得有這樣的疑慮，就拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:17.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:27.678000+08:00","text":"是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛，就這麼簡單啊，你們還是考慮到你們自己\n的問題啊，如果你們認為是正確的，為什麼當時不堅持咧？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:31.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:32.740000+08:00","text":"這是很有趣的，為什麼你當時不堅\n持咧？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:38.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:41.280000+08:00","text":"沒有水準的委員太多了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:42.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:42:59.546000+08:00","text":"我們今天是就事論事，今天既然是朝野協商，我們就好好的\n把這個條文看看哪個地方有問題，我們來修嘛，如果談不出個結果來，那我們就進入到下一個\n階段啊，不是嗎？來了！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:42:59.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.147000+08:00","text":"我就是比你大！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.207000+08:00","text":"又來了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.207000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:03.207000+08:00","text":"重點就是這一句啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.647000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:02.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:03.907000+08:00","text":"不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:03.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:07.374000+08:00","text":"又不討論了，又來了！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:07.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:22.386000+08:00","text":"來、來、來，各位委員，現在我宣告一件事，因為麥玉珍委員現在已經離席，也就是民眾黨\n的代表已經離席了，所以實際上我們現在的協商可能明顯不會達成共識……\n376\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:22.386000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:23.386000+08:00","text":"他離席是他自己的權利他不要了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:22.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:23.848000+08:00","text":"但是沒關係，我跟你講，現在我們還是繼續討論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:23.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:24.848000+08:00","text":"對啊，我們可以繼續討論，但是討倫沒有結果啊！","quality":0.211},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:24.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:25.848000+08:00","text":"對啊，我們還是可以一直討論、一直討論，奉陪啊，看是今天要討論到幾點啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:24.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:25.049000+08:00","text":"我們討論的就是各黨意見的表達，所以我歡迎各位表達意見，好不好？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:25.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:32.575000+08:00","text":"可是大家要充分的把意見表達完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:32.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:32.635000+08:00","text":"主席，會議詢問。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:32.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:33.676000+08:00","text":"所以因為民眾黨麥玉珍委員不在現場，所以我們今天沒辦法……","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:33.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:34.736000+08:00","text":"哪裡規定不在場就不能繼續協商？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:34.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:35.736000+08:00","text":"主席，我都還沒有發言，主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:34.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:43:36.657000+08:00","text":"哪一個議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場就不能再協商？……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:43:36.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:00.351000+08:00","text":"我先這樣講而已，但是我還是希望……所以我說請大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:00.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:02.673000+08:00","text":"這就是國會擴權法案，一模模一樣樣嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:02.673000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:03.673000+08:00","text":"黃國昌走人就把協商打包、黃國昌走人就把協商打包……","quality":0.227},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:03.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:03.473000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:03.473000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:06.007200+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:06.007200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:08.541400+08:00","text":"如果這樣下去就真的要散會了，所以我希望還是聽聽大家的意見……","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:08.541400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:11.075600+08:00","text":"是我在詢問啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:11.075600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:13.609800+08:00","text":"我們既然在協商了，這是因為他個人自己要離開我們，我們也沒辦法限制他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:13.609800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:16.144000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:16.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:18.678200+08:00","text":"你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:18.678200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:21.212400+08:00","text":"吳思瑤，你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:21.212400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:23.746600+08:00","text":"你有點禮貌好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:23.746600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:26.280800+08:00","text":"我不能詢\n問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:26.280800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:28.815000+08:00","text":"現在不是主席在講話嗎？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:28.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:31.536000+08:00","text":"我在詢問，他為什麼要插話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:31.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:31.917000+08:00","text":"我在詢問主席……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:31.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:32.917000+08:00","text":"現在換你，我現在沒講話啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:32.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:35.738000+08:00","text":"是你剛剛在插話好不好？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:37.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:38.819000+08:00","text":"你為什麼要插話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:40.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:40.960000+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:40.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:41.960000+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:41.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:42.960000+08:00","text":"這就是民進黨的民主嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:40.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:46.822000+08:00","text":"所以現在我們的討論是各黨意見的表達，各位委員你們充分表達意見，我沒有意見。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:46.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:48.853667+08:00","text":"別人不能詢問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:48.853667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:50.885333+08:00","text":"吳思瑤真的超沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:50.885333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:52.917000+08:00","text":"甚麼叫民主？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:52.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:54.948667+08:00","text":"這就是沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:54.948667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:56.980333+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:56.980333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:44:59.012000+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:44:59.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:02.534000+08:00","text":"OK，我再重申，大家聽清楚沒有？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:02.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:07.896000+08:00","text":"因為有民眾黨的委員他已經……因為我們協商一定要三\n377\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個黨都在……","quality":0.561},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:07.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:09.857000+08:00","text":"沒有這個事……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:09.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:13.138000+08:00","text":"有這個事啦，你不要再跟我爭了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:13.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:28.764000+08:00","text":"所以我說不會討論出協商的結果，沒有人簽字嘛，所以我\n現在是告訴各位，我繼續讓各位發言，我們現在的發言就是各位委員你們自己意見的表達，我\n充分尊重。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:28.764000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:32.754333+08:00","text":"麥玉珍會不會回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:32.754333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:36.744667+08:00","text":"所以我不會那麼早宣告散會，我們還是等到……就是看大家待會兒……我們等一段時間，我\n待會兒聯絡他，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:36.744667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:40.735000+08:00","text":"他跟我說他有行程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:40.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:42.256000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們待會再跟他確認。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:42.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:44.617000+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:44.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:47.919000+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得大家互相尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:48.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:45:57.904000+08:00","text":"拜託主席，下次跟民眾黨的代表說一下，什麼工作大家都很重要，希望聽一下結果。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:45:58.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:01.245000+08:00","text":"你跟他拜託一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:01.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:03.106000+08:00","text":"因為大家互相尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:16.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:18.998000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以會議詢問嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:20.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:20.479000+08:00","text":"我會議詢問一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:22.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:47.795000+08:00","text":"因為您剛才的裁示我有一點不理解，您\n的裁示是說不管我們講到……我們還有很多意見要表達，但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經\n離席了，所以你預判今天協商沒有結論，你已經預設了這個前提，所以現在您的意思是民眾黨\n跟你們……民眾黨是預謀好，他走了就讓今天沒有結論，你是說民眾黨預謀好了？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:47.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:48.795000+08:00","text":"各位委員，我要很實事的告訴大家，因為我看到他離開了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:46:48.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:46:49.697000+08:00","text":"民眾黨預謀好了，只要他離開，今天就沒有結論，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:00.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:02.765000+08:00","text":"黨團協商就是這樣，我們沒有辦法達成結論啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:02.765000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:03.765000+08:00","text":"這樣要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:03.765000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:04.765000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:03.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:09.206000+08:00","text":"那我們再排協商，主席，我們再排協商可以嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:09.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:09.706000+08:00","text":"我們再排協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:09.706000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:13.767000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣好離譜！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:13.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:16.468000+08:00","text":"明天我們再……那好了，就這樣我們就宣告，我來做宣告。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:16.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:17.848000+08:00","text":"主席玩弄程序啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:18.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:20.309000+08:00","text":"怎麼某一黨離開就不能再討論！","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:20.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:21.129000+08:00","text":"各位，你不要再表達意見了齁？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:21.129000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:26.471000+08:00","text":"還要不要表達意見？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:26.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:26.751000+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:26.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:29.817600+08:00","text":"坐在這裡不表達意見是坐在這裡幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:29.817600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:32.884200+08:00","text":"所以我請沈伯洋委員表達意見啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:32.884200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:35.950800+08:00","text":"怎麼會這樣，那他走了，然後我們在這邊……\n378\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:35.950800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:39.017400+08:00","text":"表達協商的意見，也就是對這個法案的意見啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:39.017400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:42.084000+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:47:42.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:47:59.171000+08:00","text":"因為民眾黨先離開了，但是國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識，這也是很重要的\n事情，如果今天只是在程序上因為他不在，但如果我們兩黨能夠達成共識的話，這也是一個很\n重要的事情。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:48:00.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:48:13.916000+08:00","text":"或許我們能夠延續下去的話，那麼明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急\n著開，因為這表示我們有延續性，可能麥委員回來之後，過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還\n可以繼續協商，我的建議是這個樣子。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:48:14.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:48:25.341000+08:00","text":"所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去……剛剛其實有滿多共識，第一個共識應該就是我\n感覺王委員跟翁委員應該都滿想加入民進黨的，一直在看我們的法案，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:48:25.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:48:27.701000+08:00","text":"我覺得他很支\n持以前我們的一些想法，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:48:30.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:49:17.605000+08:00","text":"但是我必須要講幾個點，第一個就是當然很感謝主席讓我們\n有協商的機會，但我還是必須要講，我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好，第一個就\n是在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講提高罷免門檻這件事情，但是其實顯然\n剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發，大部分都是在講有死人連署啦、有這個作假什麼等\n等，其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的問題，就是大家可以看到以往有那麼多造假的連署，這\n個大部分……不是大部分，都是國民黨發動的，那個比例很高。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:49:18.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:49:19.646000+08:00","text":"但我覺得重點是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:49:19.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:49:30.970000+08:00","text":"重點是\n它被發現了，譬如說發動罷免陳致中有 46%不合格、發動罷免高閔琳有 49%不合格，這個數據\n在這邊的意思是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:49:30.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:49:42.396000+08:00","text":"就是我們發現它不合格，如果我們發現得了它不合格的話，那為什麼用\n這個當做理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:49:42.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:49:54.604000+08:00","text":"除非我們覺得他們發現得太慢了，他們\n發現的程序通常要好幾天，我們現在想要縮短公務人員的作業時間，所以我們要修改一些規定\n，這樣聽起來才合理嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:49:55.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:08.819000+08:00","text":"很多人說我們要弄這個影本，可能是為了怕說他們有偽造，就是冒名\n，但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪，所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法，其實跟這件事情沒有\n關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:10.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:19.780000+08:00","text":"這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的，跟你要不要附發證日期，要不要附影本，沒有什\n麼關係，它的因果根本就不存在嘛。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:20.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:23.021000+08:00","text":"既然不存在的話，為什麼要用這個理由來修法？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:23.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:31.004000+08:00","text":"所以就回到下一個層次，就是當你今天要附身分證影本的時候，既然這一個不是理由，那你\n真正的理由是什麼？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:31.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:31.424000+08:00","text":"就是讓罷免變難嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:33.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:50:43.508000+08:00","text":"讓罷免變難這件事情，我們可以來看一下，因為剛剛\n麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場，因為今天大家都一直在講歷史，所以我們還是講一下，我們可以\n從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:50:44.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:51:12.247000+08:00","text":"但是我們可以看到 2013 年的黃國昌委員曾經說：「有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可\n怕的事情，所以在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜，每一個提議人跟連署人，要求你把身分證\n正反面影本交出來……你會擔心，那擔心的效果是什麼」，所以，這個很明顯我們可以看到，\n這個 2013 年的黃國昌委員，現在可能在家裡的地下室。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:51:12.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:51:23.306000+08:00","text":"而且這是什麼時候？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:51:23.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:51:34.365000+08:00","text":"這是在做罷免吳育\n昇的那個時候，這個罷免當時還是我跟他一起弄的，所以我對他這一個論述非常的熟悉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:51:34.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:51:50.838000+08:00","text":"379\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n換言之，此案從頭到尾其實跟什麼死人連署，或是連署作假一點關係都沒有，這部分本來在\n法律上就可以直接規範，在程序上也可以被發現，所以最重要的是，當你把這個東西加進去，\n不管你今天是要附發證日期，還是要附身分證影本，你就是實質在讓門檻增加，你就是實質讓\n罷免變得不容易。","quality":0.582},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:51:51.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:51:59.964000+08:00","text":"罷免作為一個政治性的權利，這是一個動態的過程，我們臺灣人民已經熟悉了民主，其實也\n慢慢地在熟悉罷免這件事情。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:52:00.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:52:07.108000+08:00","text":"如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去，第一個，這個會對政\n治權利的行使造成傷害。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:52:07.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:52:51.421000+08:00","text":"第二個，就像剛剛洪委員提到的，以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗，現在詐欺\n很猖獗，這一些東西拿出來之後，很有可能會被詐欺集團拿去利用，更不要講如果大家對於所\n謂的個資外洩可能有研究的話，其實照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案，你利用發證日期來做\n審核，這件事情聽起來是合理的，但是通常來講，如果你今天要取得一個人的個資，假設我今\n天有他的條碼，通常我需要再一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊，那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換\n照日期，所以其實發證跟換照日期，在資安上面比大家想像得重要非常非常多。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:52:52.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:00.048000+08:00","text":"而這個也不是\n以前就這樣，而是這兩、三年才會變得那麼重要，這是因為跟我們內部的資安機制有關係，這\n部分我就不多說。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:00.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:17.781000+08:00","text":"所以我還是覺得，我們今天既然想要協商，想要聚焦，我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情\n就是，其實這一個法案，它就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案，它的目的就是這樣，它其實非\n常的明確，因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:18.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:24.046000+08:00","text":"既然這樣的話，我們就是要討論，我\n們要不要限制人民的罷免權？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:24.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:28.109000+08:00","text":"如果你不要限制人民的罷免權，那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:28.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:32.032000+08:00","text":"接下來我還要講一下就是，我覺得法案寫得有點粗糙，為什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:32.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:49.898000+08:00","text":"因為發證日期在一個版本有\n，一個版本沒有，但我們可以看到，我剛才稍微翻了一下，譬如說在 162 頁，這一個應該是許\n委員的版本，它在右邊這個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期，但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期，不\n知道為什麼？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:50.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:53:55.281000+08:00","text":"那是不是傅崐萁的版本複製過來，但我記得你的版本是比較早的，所以就是有些\n文字上的謬誤。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:53:55.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:06.409000+08:00","text":"然後再來就是最後一個第九十八條之二「利用他人個人資料，未經同意偽造、假冒提議、連\n署者」，這個條文問題非常多，為什麼？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:06.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:08.211000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們的法律本來就有規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:08.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:21.143000+08:00","text":"第二個，它的第\n二行叫做「未經同意偽造」，我在這邊要稍微科普一下，偽造的定義就叫做未經同意，所以偽\n造就是偽造，不需要「未經同意偽造」。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:21.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:27.889000+08:00","text":"然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署，這其實是三種不\n同的行為，是不是要等量以觀？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:28.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:29.871000+08:00","text":"這個我看司法院其實已經有提到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:30.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:34.454000+08:00","text":"所以其實有太多，太多的事\n情，應該要在委員會討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:34.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:46.844000+08:00","text":"當然我猜可能等一下又要講說，那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開什麼等等之類的，我要告訴大\n家，當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候，就算今天討論了，我們的討論會直接被停止。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:54:47.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:54:59.891000+08:00","text":"這是\n昨天才發生的事情，我一句話都沒有講到就直接被停止討論，其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太\n多次這樣的事情，所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候，趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:00.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:10.783000+08:00","text":"最後，我還是要 echo 宏陸委員講的，我覺得非常重要的一點就是，這個是涉己事項，既然這\n380\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個案子會影響到現在的立法委員，我覺得第一個，要三思。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:11.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:25.214000+08:00","text":"第二個，我覺得我們更應該要去注\n意的，就跟釋字第 499 號講的類似，就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟立法委員的報酬、待遇等等之\n類的，應該要從次屆起實施。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:25.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:38.670000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話，人民的信\n賴利益也會被破壞，那麼就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用，但這個東西也沒有在我們現\n在討論的這個法案的內容裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:39.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:50.342000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講的就是，第一個，它的理由是不夠充分的；第二個，它的文字上也有很多疑\n慮，那更不要講說刑責的部分定的不明確；再加上又有自我迴避的問題。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:50.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:56.707000+08:00","text":"我認為至少我們在這\n邊必須要審慎以對，這個協商應該要拉長一點。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:56.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:57.167000+08:00","text":"我簡單講到這邊，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:55:59.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:55:59.789000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:56:02.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:56:13.219000+08:00","text":"林倩綺委員第一輪發言，我讓你先講一下，下一位就請蘇巧慧委員，然後\n再來張雅琳委員。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:56:15.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:56:16.822000+08:00","text":"主席、各位立院同仁。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:56:17.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:56:32.379000+08:00","text":"我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商，大家都因為是尊重民主政\n治當中，我們對於人民行使各項權利，包括我們今天在這邊討論的，有關於罷免權這樣的一個\n民主性，我們都相信它是神聖的，所以我們在這邊討論，應該就是為了讓這樣一個權利的行使\n更為嚴謹、更為神聖。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:56:32.379000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:57:03.580000+08:00","text":"所以，在選罷法當中是我們可以在這樣一個概念上來做推動的，所以剛\n才大家有一些討論，那當然也有一些從歷史緣由來談論到我們今天所處的現狀，那我們是不是\n可以就現在我們已經經歷過那麼多個階段所碰到的問題跟狀況，來做一個實質的、真正比較針\n對事情的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:57:03.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:57:29.523000+08:00","text":"所以，國民黨這邊所提出來的法案，也是因為先前我們看到一些現象，所以我們希望整體來\n講更嚴謹，國民黨的版本是希望我們在罷免權利的行使上能更為細緻。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:57:29.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:57:47.356000+08:00","text":"如果民進黨認為在這個\n行使權利的過程當中，會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響，那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式\n，或許在相關的法規裡面提出來，你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮，或有什麼實際可以解決這個\n部分的一個考量，那我想這個部分或許在針對我們一直僵持不下的身分證，或者是身分證相關\n的一些狀況，能夠找出一些解方，那我想這樣應該是對我們在協商或是對人民在行使權利上是\n比較正面的。","quality":0.441},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T17:57:47.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:57:55.456500+08:00","text":"以上這是我在第一輪的發言，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:57:55.456500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T17:58:03.557000+08:00","text":"謝謝林倩綺委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T17:58:03.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:58:03.677000+08:00","text":"我們現在請蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:58:20.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:58:20.279000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:58:21.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:58:37.307000+08:00","text":"今天變成是歷史課，大家都要來回憶我們之前的印象，我覺得如果我們要\n開始回憶的話，其實不能夠只有從 7 月 4 號那一天委員會當天混亂的現場開始回憶起，大家應\n該要更往前，從 5 月份的時候國民黨提出的擴權法案，造成了這麼多的社會反彈，在這樣的狀\n況，對不對？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:58:37.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:58:38.567000+08:00","text":"甚至是從今年的 2 月換屆之後，人數的多寡交替之後，立法院呈現一個什麼樣的\n狀況，大家開始來回憶起嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:59:01.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:59:40.356000+08:00","text":"所以從 5 月的時候發現，國民黨提的法案，就算社會的大多數聲\n音，民進黨的委員跟他說，我們有意見，我們覺得這個有問題，社會上甚至是跟他們講說，這\n個過去你們提的版本，民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本，大家都不同意，不是多數，所以\n沒有過，他還是像現在今天這樣說，沒有啊，你們民進黨就是有提出啊，我們一直跟他講說，\n可是後來沒有成啊，就沒有過啊，所以表示我們也尊重當時朝野討論的結果，最後沒有過，他\n就不管，他就是一直 repeat，重複 repeat，這個臺詞是一模一樣到現在。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:59:40.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T17:59:48.899000+08:00","text":"好了，結果 5 月的時候\n381\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，你看到二十幾號的時候，哎呀，坐在我對面的沈伯洋委員，真的，你當時辛苦了，從臺上這\n樣跌下來，真的是，真的是幸好，看看剛剛講話的時候，都還是邏輯清楚啦！","quality":0.77},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T17:59:55.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:01.425000+08:00","text":"當時到底是被誰\n推下來、丟下來這樣的狀況，你看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:02.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:05.968000+08:00","text":"到現在人家都還是說你是\n自找的，這個實在是喔……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:05.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:06.968000+08:00","text":"又扯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:06.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:07.968000+08:00","text":"再扯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:07.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:12.471000+08:00","text":"實在是覺得，真的你看，所以我們真的是要回憶一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:14.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:21.197000+08:00","text":"所以，當時的立法院氣氛就是\n，如果國民黨想要的法案就是要按照國會的人數多數強行通過，逕付二讀、快速通過、過水式\n的通過，那當然，後面他如果再提出任何的法案，我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:21.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:21.757000+08:00","text":"好，那我們來看 7 月 4 號，7 月 4 號是一個什麼樣的氛圍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:41.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:00:43.451000+08:00","text":"就是在 6 月 29 號的時候，拆樑山\n海行動正式宣布已經超過第二階段的連署數了，所以罷樑又進入一個新的階段。哇！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:00:43.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:05.716000+08:00","text":"經過了被\n這麼多人，10 萬人上街抗議的國民黨，再加上看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來，\n連兩階段的連署都已經過了，這時候的國民黨會想要什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:05.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:06.737000+08:00","text":"當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發\n生嘛，所以當然是要加嚴罷免的制度，怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:06.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:07.817000+08:00","text":"就是把大家不想拿出來的身\n分證影本，把它加到條件裡面最好啊！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:07.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:31.707000+08:00","text":"所以你看看他們的版本，就是這樣嘛，所以 7 月 4 號當\n然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:32.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:39.030000+08:00","text":"好了，以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了，沒有想到竟\n然是逕付二讀，就直接跳到由國民黨召開協商，就是今天的會議啊。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:39.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:01:41.631000+08:00","text":"好，那我們把這個歷史還\n原了，大家記憶還原，不要只採取片段式的記憶，要回憶就通通想起來，要回憶就大家從頭到\n尾來說，不要只有講這種片段式的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:01:57.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:02:09.779000+08:00","text":"好，那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了，那為什麼現在新的、今天提出來的兩個版本裡面，\n只有國民身分證影本和發證日期？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:02:10.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:02:22.142000+08:00","text":"大家現在有沒有在實務上看到，我們為了要防止詐騙的狀況\n會加上什麼樣的條件？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:02:22.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:02:46.988000+08:00","text":"其實有啊，蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了；你要去辦信用卡的時\n候，也有加上身分證的換證日期了，這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的、增加信用的條\n件嘛，所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況，為什麼？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:02:46.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:02:54.633000+08:00","text":"因為他不用把身分證留在別人那裡，他\n只要在填寫的時候多填一項資料就好了，跟直接附上身分證影本整個圖件完全不一樣嘛。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:02:54.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:02:58.596000+08:00","text":"所以\n完全不一樣的狀況下，吳秉叡跟蔡易餘當時的版本是加換證日期，是符合現在的狀況的，跟國\n民黨現在提出來的附身分證影本是不一樣的嘛。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:09.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:20.378000+08:00","text":"所以主席，我在這裡跟你講道理，這才是剛剛\n人家講說立法院是好好講道理的地方，我現在就跟你講道理啊，講道理是社會現行的狀況加換\n證日期跟加身分證影本是完全不同的狀況，在實務的層次上面，也完全已經得到不同的共識性\n了嘛。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:20.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:37.071000+08:00","text":"好，那如果今天要認真討論條文，那我們到底要改到什麼程度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:37.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:38.453000+08:00","text":"我們可以討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:38.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:46.451000+08:00","text":"主席，你今\n天是做一個協調會的主席，現在民眾黨走啦，他說他有行程，走了；國民黨，欸，噹噹，那我\n不曉得今天的協商，等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:46.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:46.791000+08:00","text":"主席，我們的國會影像都在錄……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:03:46.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:03:47.031000+08:00","text":"國會影像都在錄嘛，後面電視臺也在錄嘛……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:05.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:25.041000+08:00","text":"後面還有……張雅琳委員，好不好？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:25.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:26.041000+08:00","text":"382\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:26.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:27.041000+08:00","text":"那你現在講的結論，你現在講的結論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:27.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:28.041000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，我是在描述我等一下對你的結論的期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:28.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:29.041000+08:00","text":"是，會、會、會，我待會會宣告，但是我們還是讓委員講一下，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:29.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:30.041000+08:00","text":"我現在是說，你的結論大家萬眾期待是一個公平合理的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:25.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:25.601000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:25.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:33.863000+08:00","text":"我想我們今天討論的選罷法草案，其實是關乎臺灣的民主制度，這是一個\n非常嚴肅的事情。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:34.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:41.105000+08:00","text":"因為我想，你問任何一個人，要參與連署的時候，必須把你的身分證拿出來\n，這個難度絕對是非常非常高的，而且這絕對會造成詐騙的問題。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:41.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:04:59.631000+08:00","text":"如果你現在把「詐騙」還有\n「身分證」輸入在 Google 裡面，你就會看到其實已經有 2 萬 1,000 個刑事判決，所以這絕對是\n非常嚴重的問題。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:04:59.631000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:05:18.157000+08:00","text":"如果我們貿然的把這一個身分證加上去的時候，不但會威嚇我們的民眾，沒\n有辦法來行使他的罷免權，也會讓我們的整個法制上面，可能會造成未來詐騙橫行的問題。","quality":0.265},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:05:18.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:05:30.683000+08:00","text":"再來，第二個部分就是，剛剛伯洋委員其實也有說了，最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨，但\n是國民黨提出這個，我也覺得是蠻可笑的啦。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:05:31.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:05:45.373000+08:00","text":"而且我們如果要討論這麼嚴肅的問題，其實我們\n應該要開公聽會諮詢專家學者的意見，好好的來請益，如何保障民眾的罷免權的同時，也可以\n避免造假的問題。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T18:05:45.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:05:59.565000+08:00","text":"可是我們這一次，並沒有經過任何的公聽會，來討論有關身分證的問題，我\n自己認為，其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議，例如我們可能可以用電子連署\n，或者是戶政機關協助來受理等等，都是我們可以討論的重點，而不是匆匆的，沒有在充分討\n論的狀況之下就通過選罷法，我覺得這是對民主最大的傷害。謝謝。","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:06:00.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:06:01.263000+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:06:01.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:06:01.443000+08:00","text":"再來請王美惠委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:06:26.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:06:28.873000+08:00","text":"主席，我等了很久才等到，感謝主席給我們這個機會。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:06:29.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:06:50.817000+08:00","text":"我覺得今天要協商選罷法，大\n家要互相尊重，看看問題出在哪裡，要怎麼去改進，而不是我們民進黨說出來就不行，國民黨\n說出來就可以，這樣不好，這樣不是叫做協商，大家尊重彼此的意見。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:06:50.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:07:04.672000+08:00","text":"我們國家要進步就是之\n前覺得好的要怎麼保存下來，不好的我們要怎麼去改進嘛。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:07:04.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:07:08.175000+08:00","text":"像現在，大家的爭議點就是，一方主張要附身分證影印本，另外一方認為身分證影印本的個\n資，等於剝奪百姓罷免的權利。","quality":0.551},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:07:28.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:07:29.653000+08:00","text":"因為有很多人想要罷免，不過因為要影印身分證，他會考慮，\n所以這樣是去剝奪百姓想要做的事情，說實在的我們這樣也不好啦！","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:07:29.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:07:48.790000+08:00","text":"我看到剛剛有一黨的委員\n先跑了，後來另外一黨的委員也跑光，我覺得大家要互相尊重，因為協商的過程，1 個小時真的\n講不完啦……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T18:07:48.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:07:49.790000+08:00","text":"重要的是有人一個人講 30 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:07:48.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:06.687000+08:00","text":"我也感謝主席，主席給我們大家表達的機會，因為我們選罷法的門檻，像剛剛說的，\n我們不能自肥我們自己，要在下一任才適用，也沒有人這種修法方式的啦！","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:06.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:25.733500+08:00","text":"我覺得說，我們今\n天應該要來問主席，今天的結論，你剛才說的是不有結論，沒有結論的話，我要請教主席，我\n們會再開協商嗎？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:25.733500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:44.780000+08:00","text":"還是明天院長來主持就結束了？","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:44.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:48.942000+08:00","text":"這是最重要的，這一點我要請教我們主席。以上。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:48.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:51.143000+08:00","text":"383\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:51.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:08:53.504000+08:00","text":"好，我們謝謝王美惠委員。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:08:56.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:03.249000+08:00","text":"思瑤幹事長跟易餘，培瑜還沒講啦，因為培瑜還沒講，我們就請\n培瑜講，培瑜講完我再來做宣告。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:03.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:03.850000+08:00","text":"來，請培瑜。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:07.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:07.835000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:08.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:15.102000+08:00","text":"既然要上歷史課，我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點，也幫主席複習。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:15.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:25.809000+08:00","text":"大家都\n說身分證交出來有資安的問題，剛剛美惠委員也說了，交出身分證，大家會害怕，我要提醒大\n家，為什麼會害怕？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:26.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:30.431000+08:00","text":"小的時候，我爸爸說「不要碰政治，因為會被國民黨點名做記號」。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:30.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:09:53.071000+08:00","text":"以前\n那個時代，大家對於國民黨的威權統治，如果都還記得，所以我要提醒大家，現在所有人在擔\n心的是，當我交出身分證，就是剛剛洪申翰委員說的，當我就是被認證，我是要反對某一個政\n黨的人，請問，民主機制如何運轉下去？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:09:54.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:10:22.017000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了，但是他們就算在這裡，我也不認為他們願意\n承認，威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒，還在非常多臺灣人民的心中，所以他們今天做出這\n個非常荒謬的條文，我要說的是，不是只有條文本身有資安的問題，而是它的背後如何想像臺\n灣人民把自己的身分證交出去，他們如何對臺灣人民交代。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:10:22.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:10:37.763000+08:00","text":"再來，大家最近都有看到 NHK 紀錄\n片在講個資被濫用的問題，還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題，請問國民黨或是民眾\n黨的委員，你們自己要不要在這個議題上，對臺灣人民有所交代？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:10:38.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:11:02.817000+08:00","text":"如果，如同剛剛思瑤委員有提醒主席，也請主席等一下要做出裁示，如果今天的發言跟協商\n只是一個過水，根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質協商，那我要再次提醒主席，你\n身為今天協商的主席，你必須要去呼應、回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮，不要讓我們陪\n你坐在這邊聊天講故事。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T18:11:03.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:11:19.246000+08:00","text":"我們很願意主張我們的論述，我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨跟民眾\n黨的委員相關的疑慮，即使他們完全不考慮，但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席，或是\n陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:11:19.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:11:22.607000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:11:22.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:11:27.470000+08:00","text":"我想今天很感謝大家，大家都撥空來參與。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:11:28.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:11:34.033000+08:00","text":"思瑤，我先講完，因為大家\n一直在問我，現在要不要做結論，巧慧在那邊也一直在笑。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:11:36.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:03.929000+08:00","text":"我跟你說，這樣啦，我跟各位講，\n我現在一定要依立法院職權行使法來做出我的裁示，因為我們黨團協商，今天不是逐條討論，\n現在是黨團協商，一定要三個黨達成共識才能做成結論，現在民眾黨先離開了，我也不能去制\n止他，說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商，國民黨黨團代表也離開了，所以我們很難達成共\n識。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:04.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:20.200000+08:00","text":"依照立法院職權行使法第七十一條，沒有辦法達成共識，其實我剛才就可以宣布散會了，\n但是我已經承諾大家，我要聽大家把意見表達完畢，所以大家都已經有把自己的意見表達了，\n現在再說下去……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:20.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:26.503000+08:00","text":"他們剛剛一直點我的名字呢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:26.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:28.645000+08:00","text":"但是現在再說下去，就不會達成共識啊。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:28.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:29.646000+08:00","text":"對啊……然後他都說要我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:29.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:39.975000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，明天……我現在跟你講，我還是依照我的職責，我要作出以下宣告：有關本日之協\n商會議，本席擬具結論如下……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:40.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:41.796000+08:00","text":"主席，你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:41.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:43.518000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，不要，我已經打算說我只到那個……\n384\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:43.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:44.259000+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:44.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:54.087000+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商有委員會的審查……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:55.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:57.069000+08:00","text":"還有兩次以上的朝野協商……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:57.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:58.550000+08:00","text":"因已無法有協商結果，本次會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:58.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:12:59.591000+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:12:59.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:00.591000+08:00","text":"本次會議各黨團代表均無法達成共識，由本黨團向院長請求進行黨團協商，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:00.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:01.592000+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:01.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:06.815000+08:00","text":"今天就是過水，今天就是演戲，今天就是虛晃一\n招，林思銘，你是歷史的罪人！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:07.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:09.277000+08:00","text":"今天就是過水……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:09.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:12.348429+08:00","text":"今天協商就是過水啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:12.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:16.077000+08:00","text":"你們就是要過水，然後禮拜五……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:16.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:18.377000+08:00","text":"我宣布現在散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:18.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:19.819857+08:00","text":"散會（18 時 13 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:20.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:41.834143+08:00","text":"各位同仁大家早，我們今天要進行黨團協商，協商的主題是有關財政、內政兩委員會報告併\n案審查委員賴士葆等 22 人、委員傅崐萁等 20 人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n的案子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:42.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:13:58.991286+08:00","text":"我們要請各位黨團代表以及次長、署長等政府官員分別就本次協商主題「地方稅法通\n則第四條條文修正草案」表達意見，我們就到臺下進行協商。","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:13:59.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:14:25.005571+08:00","text":"這個在委員會裡頭事實上已經有審查報告了，在上一回已經列席說明備詢，這是在 113 年 5 月\n6 號，今年 5 月已經聯席會議審查過了，然後提案要旨賴士葆委員跟傅委員也都有說了，大家看\n一下書面的資料上面有，我們就不再贅述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:14:25.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:14:31.305571+08:00","text":"那時候理事長也有回應委員的提案，這個資料也有\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:14:31.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:15:13.891286+08:00","text":"至於最後的結論，財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆等人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定明為中央\n立法之地方稅，及傅崐萁委員等人提案將地方稅明定為中央立法所定的地方稅，並增訂同條第\n三項定明地方政府開徵之特別稅課、臨時稅課及附加稅課不適用第一項徵收率調高 30%之限制\n，與第四條原立法意旨相符，這是財政部的看法，所以尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:15:14.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:15:33.048429+08:00","text":"之前我們委員\n會已經聽取說明及詢答，還有經過大體討論，進行討論後已經有達成共識，全案審查完竣，審\n查結果是全案保留送院會處理，這是上一次開會的決議。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:15:33.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:15:46.205571+08:00","text":"所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報\n院會，院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商，也就是我們今天進行協商的目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:15:46.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:15:53.934143+08:00","text":"然後討論本案時，羅\n召集委員會補充說明，我今天就來補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:15:54.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:15:57.377000+08:00","text":"大家手上都有這份資料吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:15:57.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:16:09.391286+08:00","text":"這個案子看起來是單\n純啦，看起來行政院、財政部也沒有特別的反對意見，就尊重委員會的審議結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:16:09.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:16:11.977000+08:00","text":"郭委員有意見，請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:16:12.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:17:07.991286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，就是因為有意見才會保留到政黨進行協商，雖然字眼上增加不多，然後賴\n版跟傅版其實條文上只有一、兩字的差異而已，但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成共識的幾項原因\n，我做一個比較敘述性的說明：第一個，這個其實牽扯到個案修法的疑慮，有相關的訴訟案件\n目前還在纏訟當中，特別是花蓮縣的部分跟砂石業者之間所引發的一連串爭議跟行政救濟，從\n105 年到現在一直在纏訟當中，這個我讓主席了解一下，所以此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法\n的口實，這是第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:17:08.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:17:43.148429+08:00","text":"第二個部分，就法條內容來看的話，因為原條文第四條當中就有規範\n30%的限制，他卻把它限縮在所謂中央立法所定的範疇，也就是說，只要是地方新增的稅源，就\n沒有受這個比率上的限制，而新增稅源的部分，與地方相關的條文是第三條，如果沒有一個比\n率上的限制的話，恐無法預期那個稅率是如何。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:17:43.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:17:58.305571+08:00","text":"也就是說，地方自治的權利變成無法預測或毫\n354\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n無依循，它要幾倍就變幾倍，會變成這種狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:17:58.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:18:09.748429+08:00","text":"所以如果要修這條法的話，嚴格來說也要附帶\n連同第三條一併來修正，這樣才會比較有完整性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:18:10.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:18:26.905571+08:00","text":"第三個部分，其實針對地方稅法通則，不論\n就財政部也好或學者也好，大家都有類似的看法，財政部也委託過研究，就認為這個限制太多\n、應該修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:18:27.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:18:45.491286+08:00","text":"其實在陳委員前兩天主持的公聽會當中，我們也不斷提到要充實地方的財源，增\n加它的自主能力，地方稅法通則應該要修，您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:18:45.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:19:07.505571+08:00","text":"關於地方稅法通則，老實講，就大部分的地方政府來說的話，是看得到吃不到，或即便吃得\n到也是吃一點點，然後因為只可以吃一點點，它就想要吃很大口，所以產生了今天這個很大的\n爭議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:19:07.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:19:30.091286+08:00","text":"所以源頭還是這一部法案應該要去面對、要去修，然後要有一個通盤的考量，就如同我\n剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係，是不是其他的稅源有可能再有一點開拓性，不要有太多\n的限制性？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:19:30.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:19:50.105571+08:00","text":"基本上我是認為財政部責無旁貸，而且次長是專家當中的專家，署長也算是在次長\n之後而已，財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊，如果他們想不出來，誰能夠想得出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:19:50.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:20:05.834143+08:00","text":"而且\n講白一點，我認為這一個條文，一來真的要請財政部費心去了解一下地方政府的一些相關需求\n，他們有沒有察覺到限制在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:20:06.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:20:15.848429+08:00","text":"當然這是想要財政自主的人，如果沒有想要財政自主的時候\n，他可能也不太關心啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:20:16.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:20:46.148429+08:00","text":"但是我相信總是會有人想要多一點自主財源的可能性，因此我是認為\n這個要再花點時間請財政部召開一次會議，但是不要再委託研究，因為委託研究已經很多次了\n，哪邊可以放、哪邊不能放，如果兩位不知道的話，我想全中華民國其他 2,300 萬人也沒人知道\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:20:46.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:19.877000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個部分，希望財政部再根據上一次公聽會的結論，就是陳委員擔任主席所做的\n結論，還有今天這一個政黨協商能夠押個日期好了，看能不能在 6 個月內提出相關的草案，這\n個很重要，提出一個行政院版的草案出來，讓整個地方政府有更多的稅源可以充實他們本身的\n地方財政。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:20.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:22.748429+08:00","text":"以上是我的看法，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:23.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:25.048429+08:00","text":"非常謝謝郭委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:25.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:27.348429+08:00","text":"財政部有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:27.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:29.648429+08:00","text":"我回應一下好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:29.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:21:55.377000+08:00","text":"這次修法的內容主要是第四條的部分，因為是委員提案，委員提案的部分主要就是讓\n第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚，本來第四條的立法本意也是指以中央立法的地方稅，所以這次\n委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T18:21:55.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:22:23.105571+08:00","text":"剛才郭委員講的這件事情，涉及到地方政府他們開徵地方\n稅的權責，要不要把現行第三條有些限縮的範圍再放寬，當然，目前第三條限縮的範圍其實在\n當時訂定的時候都有全國全盤性的考慮，需不需要再另外配合這次財劃法的修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長慶華","start":"2024-10-23T18:22:23.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:22:49.405571+08:00","text":"委員們都覺\n得地方稅法通則可能應該要併同做一個檢討，我們應該也是可以回去另外再召集會議，但是因\n為那個是全盤性的考量，跟這次委員提案當然是兩件事情，所以可能還是看看今天怎麼樣處理\n的結果，我們都尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:22:49.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:22:55.419857+08:00","text":"我講這個題目是非常中性的，而且很專業的題目。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:22:55.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:23:41.719857+08:00","text":"我當初提這個修法，主要是看到過\n去的立委、也是財稅專家曾巨威，在經濟日報有一篇社論還有一篇專欄特別提到，現在來講，\n355\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n地方稅法通則讓地方可以在 30%裡面調高的部分（調高也調低，但事實上基本上是調高），就\n裡面來講，事實上範圍的部分能夠把它限縮在中央立法的地方稅這部分，中央如果沒有立，就\n尊重地方政府，我強調等於把這個權力下放給地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:23:42.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:23:44.591286+08:00","text":"我剛剛為什麼比較晚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:23:44.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:23:54.891286+08:00","text":"因為還接受到兩個媒體裡面很資深的記者就問我，這麼中性的題目，\n為什麼還要協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:23:55.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:24:03.477000+08:00","text":"就問我這個問題，我說不知道，反正就協商，我們來講清楚，沒有要針對誰\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:24:03.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:24:16.919857+08:00","text":"而且我們強調這個也是一致的，像財劃法也是如此，就是中央管地方的時候，中央是不是能\n夠放一點權力給地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:24:17.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:24:42.934143+08:00","text":"以現在來講的話，我們還有一個現象，就是常常是中央請客、地方買單\n，比如現在講什麼里長加薪、加什麼的，都是地方政府在買單，不是中央政府去買單；像娛樂\n稅，現在放了，你們娛樂稅是強調很久，你們現在放了，過去都不放。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:24:43.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:25:16.091286+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得針對現在目前來講整個的趨勢，大家都希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性，等於是\n除了中央訂的調 30%以外，其他的部分就尊重地方，而且也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調，\n還要經過地方的議會同意、要議會通過，議會沒有通過也不能做，所以不是地方政府就能夠來\n獨裁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:25:16.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:25:28.677000+08:00","text":"就這個來講的話，我是希望說看看怎麼樣，可以有共識，那就通過吧；如果不能有共識\n，那就送到院會處理吧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:25:28.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:25:31.834143+08:00","text":"我綜合剛剛大家的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:25:32.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:26:01.277000+08:00","text":"剛剛郭委員講得很好，但是你說所謂的個案修法，立法院常常就是\n遇到重大事情才會進行修法，因為我們有時候比較慢，通常沒有先進一步在修法，我們應該檢\n討，比如像消防，發生什麼消防事故的時候，我們都開始十萬火急地開始修消防相關的法令。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:26:01.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:26:25.862714+08:00","text":"所以為個案修法不等於是壞事，反而我們要檢討為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法，如果我\n們立法院的同仁們比較有遠見，我們應該事先修法，但是事後亡羊補牢，猶未晚矣，我們還是\n要跟得上時代的改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:26:26.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:26:40.448429+08:00","text":"我剛剛是舉消防的案例當例子，不是說為個案修法就不好，只是我們要\n檢討自己為什麼沒有遠見，沒有看到比較遠的地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:26:40.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:27:07.605571+08:00","text":"第二個，禮拜一我們開財劃法相關的會議，事實上也是類似這個相關，也說到地方稅法通則\n要修改，讓地方比較有更強大的自主權，知道自己的財源收入要怎麼樣收比較多，然後要自給\n自足、更強一點，這個也是我們大家共同的想法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:27:07.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:27:31.334143+08:00","text":"所以我覺得誠如剛剛李次長所說的，我禮拜\n一也有講，地方稅法通則本來也是應該修，你們也有提出來，我也是很支持，所以次長，的確\n全盤的部分也應該要去檢討，我們財劃法往前走，你們的稅則要跟上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:27:31.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:27:47.919857+08:00","text":"關於單項法令，因為賴委員跟傅委員都已經提出來，我們就往前走，後面你們該修的也要跟\n上，我也贊同你說要研究，所以我也支持你的想法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:27:48.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:28:02.791286+08:00","text":"所以應該是這麼說吧，當然如果今天可以\n達成共識，那 OK，這個法就先過了；如果郭委員有意見，當然，我們也要尊重你的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:28:03.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:28:17.091286+08:00","text":"我們\n如果保留出去的話，到朝野協商的時候還有 1 個月，這個月如果要做什麼研究、次長要去做什\n麼研究，也是尊重他們嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:28:17.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:28:39.391286+08:00","text":"至於全盤的研究，他願意給你們比較多的時間，但是財政部要知道\n，我們財劃法是往前走的，你們要研究也要快速，不是說 3 個月、6 個月，你們也要快速地趕快\n把東西送過來，不然我們也不會等待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:28:39.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:28:56.548429+08:00","text":"現在尊重地方自主權很重要，尤其財劃法的精神也是這樣子，所以我覺得這個應該也沒什麼\n，如果對這個照案這樣通過，郭委員會有不同意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:28:56.848429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:29:01.134143+08:00","text":"356\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:29:01.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:29:05.434143+08:00","text":"我還有不同意見，謝謝主席的回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:29:05.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:29:24.877000+08:00","text":"第一個，基本上往往有些重大事件的時候，修法\n確實是有，不是沒有，但是這件事情不是事後，現在是進行中 ing，它並不是事後，也就是說，\n有個案修法的疑慮在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:29:25.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:29:37.462714+08:00","text":"而且在司法訴訟當中有兩造雙方，任何修法都會影響個別權益的問\n題，所以這個要慎重的原因是在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:29:37.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:29:58.334143+08:00","text":"第二個部分，基本上，我的論點其實都一樣，就是地方需要多一點稅源，地方財政需要更多\n的自主，地方稅法通則需要修，但是問題是怎麼修，不是這樣修，所以我保留意見是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:29:58.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:30:29.205571+08:00","text":"還有一點，就是呼應一下賴士葆委員，第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款，因為它的六\n大限制實在限制非常地多，因此其實要動的話，應該連同第三條一起動，配套來做處理，這樣\n會比較完整一點，否則的話，單純地用這一條來說，真的會陷入個案修法的疑慮，。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:30:29.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:30:41.219857+08:00","text":"事實上，\n我說的個案修法確實是有司法案件正在訴訟當中，因此我認為這部法案需要修，但是怎麼修？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:30:41.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:30:49.805571+08:00","text":"應該比較全面地修，讓地方政府更有財源的修，而不是為個案而修。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:30:50.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:31:07.534143+08:00","text":"我再提一下，這不是什麼個案，因為這個案子我在第 10 屆就提出來了，但是因為屆\n期不連續……那時候傅委員沒有提案，只有我一個人提案，在第 10 屆我就提了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:31:07.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:31:26.405571+08:00","text":"各位都知道，\n我們當立委這麼久，你想修這個、想修那個，一定是看各界名家、各個教授他們的看法，那天\n我就看到曾巨威寫的這一篇，我覺得很有道理，就著手來修。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2024-10-23T18:31:26.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:31:49.848429+08:00","text":"所以我是從第 10 屆開始修，但第\n10 屆沒有過，屆期不連續，這一屆又拿出來修，整個故事、story 是這樣子的，不需要什麼都把\n它政治化、戴上一個帽子，不過我尊重郭委員的立場，那就看主席怎麼裁定吧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:31:50.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:31:52.719857+08:00","text":"我們尊重大家的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:31:53.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:32:28.448429+08:00","text":"事實上，立法院的法令本來就會影響到很多的個案，比如我們上一屆\n修民法的利息，本來是 20%，我記得後來好像修成是 16%，那同時一定有很多訴訟案件有 20%\n跟 16%的案子在那裡發生，一定有很多、很多的個案，這個毫無疑問，立法就是會影響到百姓\n，但是我們是民意代表，所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:32:28.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:32:40.462714+08:00","text":"如果今天大家都覺得沒有辦法\n達成一致，我們就一樣，就是保留，我們還有朝野協商這個階段，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:32:40.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:32:48.191286+08:00","text":"所以我們就保留，\n然後送朝野協商，讓他們還有 1 個月可以去討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:32:48.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:32:49.919857+08:00","text":"保留，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:32:50.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:32:57.362714+08:00","text":"其實，我待會委員會還有一點時間，我本來還要跟你繼續討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:32:57.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:01.662714+08:00","text":"我們保留送院會協商，送院會協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:01.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:05.391286+08:00","text":"因為這件事情是 105 年就開始了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:05.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:15.977000+08:00","text":"應該是第 9 屆就開始了，可能……不過以賴委員的專業，我都沒有看證據，我就看你\n的來做參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:16.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:21.134143+08:00","text":"好，以上兩案均保留，送院會協商，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:21.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:22.577000+08:00","text":"散會（9 時 51 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:22.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:28.019857+08:00","text":"好，現在時間 4 點半，那我們現在開始進行協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:28.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:39.177000+08:00","text":"我先跟大家請安一下，我們的行政部門是\n我們劉世芳部長，還有我們中選會的陳副主委朝建。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:39.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:33:58.619857+08:00","text":"在場還有我們國民黨團的是許宇甄委員，\n民眾黨團是麥玉珍委員，民進黨團則是吳思瑤幹事長、蔡易餘書記長，還有我們的王美惠委員\n，還有各位媒體記者們，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:33:58.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:34:17.205571+08:00","text":"我們今天協商的主題是針對本院委員傅崐萁等 16 人、許宇甄\n委員等 20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，由我們負責召集來進行黨團\n的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:34:17.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:34:32.362714+08:00","text":"我們先介紹今天列席的官員，內政部部長劉世芳劉部長，還有中選會的陳朝建陳副主\n委，其他的就請參考我們今天的列席名單。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:34:32.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:34:37.234143+08:00","text":"我們沈伯洋委員、張雅琳委員也到場了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:34:37.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:35:00.962714+08:00","text":"我們就進入今天的協商，我剛才提過本次協商的主題是傅崐萁委員等 16 人以及許宇甄委員等\n20 人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，經第 1 會期第 22 次會議決定：逕付\n二讀，併案交付黨團協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:35:01.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:35:10.977000+08:00","text":"針對本法案的內容，我想我們就先請國民黨提案的代表許宇甄委員\n做提案的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:35:11.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:35:14.705571+08:00","text":"先進行說明，坐著說明就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:35:15.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:35:19.291286+08:00","text":"主席、各位列席官員、各位委員，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:35:19.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:36:13.305571+08:00","text":"我想這一次針對選罷法的修正案，主要是\n因為在選罷法的施行過程中，我們發覺很多的連署有一些亂象，包括一些錯假連署、抄名冊連\n署或者是死亡連署，我們發覺有很多這樣的問題，甚至很多都是筆跡相同，可是礙於現在的選\n罷法沒有辦法真正的能夠去把這個問題兜出來，只要是有問題，有問題的一定要再寄詢問單給\n本人，如果本人沒有回覆的，這一份連署書又算是正確的、為真的、有效的，我們認為這樣的\n一個方式確實對於罷免有產生很大的一個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:36:13.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:06.462714+08:00","text":"所以我們希望在這過程中能夠讓罷免更為嚴謹\n，其實罷免的核心精神主要是要課責公職人員，而不是為了要讓這些錯假連署或者有這麼多的\n連署亂象而造成讓罷免能夠更為容易，我們希望能夠恢復其嚴謹性，所以我特別提案，就是希\n望能夠把我們公民投票法部分修正條文草案第十二條規定公投連署要提供身分證正反面影本，\n我們的理由是為了防止虛偽連署的情事，也避免破壞公民投票的公正性，也希望大家都能夠關\n注這一個相關的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:06.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:07.905571+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:08.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:09.205571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:09.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:20.362714+08:00","text":"我們提案的委員講完之後，我們先請行政部門做適時的一個答復，然後再請各黨\n團表示意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:20.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:32.662714+08:00","text":"現在有王鴻薇委員到場；另外，今天列席的還有法務部的廖江憲參事，還有司法\n院民事廳的劉素如法官。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:32.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:41.534143+08:00","text":"針對這個法條的修正，是不是請我們內政部劉世芳部長先表達你的看法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:41.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:49.262714+08:00","text":"還是要等我們各黨\n……那委員先講好了，再請行政部門來表示意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:49.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:51.562714+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:51.862714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:37:56.719857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:37:57.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:38:08.734143+08:00","text":"我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了\n358\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n應當有的程序正義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:38:09.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:38:47.034143+08:00","text":"我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案，那個\n時候有涉及門檻的提高，後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查，上個會期的 7 月份發\n生了委員會會議室臨時更換的一些……我認為在臺灣國會史上都創下非常糟的惡例，以致於那\n一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:38:47.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:39:12.191286+08:00","text":"之後許委員的案子撤了，現在是\n新的案子，現在傅崐萁委員的案子跟許宇甄委員的案子是新版的提案，然後在院會是用逕付二\n讀的方式，也就是逕付二讀，內政委員會就沒有審查而直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:39:12.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:39:59.062714+08:00","text":"上一週\n在協商總預算的時候，我們赫然發現，居然韓國瑜院長召集、院長 level 的朝野協商，在協商總\n預算的那個協商，居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法，所以在那一次（上週）韓\n國瑜院長主持的朝野協商，其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑，今天算是導回正\n確的程序，回到由提案的政黨─國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商，今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有\n的正常程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:39:59.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:22.219857+08:00","text":"但是我也發現了一個問題，也想問一下主席，選罷法這麼重要，憲法第十七條賦予人民選舉\n、罷免、創制、複決的權利，這麼慎重，但沒有經過委員會的審查，因為它是逕付二讀，那今\n天的協商就非常重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:22.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:30.519857+08:00","text":"主席您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時，是一小時就要結束嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:30.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:32.534143+08:00","text":"我\n們希望能夠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:32.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:33.977000+08:00","text":"你的協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:34.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:41.419857+08:00","text":"你的開會通知上預定會議時間是寫 1 小時，我希望說這麼重要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:41.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:48.577000+08:00","text":"OK，那就釐清了，主席沒有這個預定時間這樣的設定，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:48.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:54.305571+08:00","text":"因為這需要好好的來討論，到 5 點半就是 1 小時啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:54.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:56.319857+08:00","text":"這是第一件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:56.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:57.762714+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T18:40:58.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:40:59.777000+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:41:00.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:41:03.505571+08:00","text":"尊重我的發言、尊重我的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:41:03.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:41:29.234143+08:00","text":"所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言，因為這麼重要，\n逕付二讀的話，委員會已經沒有討論，這是憲法第十七條規範的人民的基本權利，當然要好好\n討論，當然我們是希望它應當沒有逕付二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:41:29.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:41:56.391286+08:00","text":"第二件事情，我也覺得很有疑惑，今天的黨團協商都還沒有進行、還沒有召開，我們剛剛居\n然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午 3 點鐘的朝野協商通知，已經把這個列為第二案，第一\n案是總預算要持續的來討論，第二案就是選罷法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:41:56.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:42:07.834143+08:00","text":"所以我們非常質疑難道韓院長認為林思銘委\n員、國民黨團召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:42:08.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:42:14.991286+08:00","text":"所以就預先又跳過了程序、預先排了明天就\n要討論選罷法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:42:15.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:42:22.148429+08:00","text":"是韓國瑜院長不信任林思銘、今天會議主席的協調能力嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:42:22.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:42:29.877000+08:00","text":"還是說國民黨的朋\n友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:42:30.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:00.748429+08:00","text":"只排一小時，然後這麼重要、逕付二讀、攸關人民\n基本權利，委員會已經沒有時間、沒有機會討論了，今天預設一個小時就要結束這場協商，甚\n359\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論，明天朝野協商再討論，然後下一關是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:01.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:05.905571+08:00","text":"就是\n禮拜五院會就可以表決了，是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:06.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:09.062714+08:00","text":"我想問一下這個程序啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:09.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:15.362714+08:00","text":"主席，這是程序問題，要不然\n我可以先針對程序問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:15.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:17.662714+08:00","text":"好、好，請主席說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:17.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:31.391286+08:00","text":"思瑤，我想今天的協商完全依照我們的議事規則去召集的，也是回應那天你們希望我們再次\n召開這個黨團的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:31.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:37.119857+08:00","text":"您知道韓院長已經發了明天的協商通知了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:37.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:43:47.134143+08:00","text":"我現在是針對我……今天是我的協商，我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:43:47.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:05.719857+08:00","text":"但是\n我希望大家不要再去講題外話，就針對今天的重點─這五個條文，大家發表自己的看法，因為\n這樣講下去，我講實在話，這樣一直講下去，意見都會重複啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:06.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:21.162714+08:00","text":"我想我們現在來協商就是希望\n大家形成共識，若有一致的意見，我們就達成協商，沒有辦法達成協商的話，當然我們就意見\n不一致……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:21.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:24.891286+08:00","text":"主席，我想繼續，謝謝你的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:25.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:34.334143+08:00","text":"今天是這個屆期第一次討論選罷法，朝野的委員可以坐下來討論，這是第一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:34.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:42.919857+08:00","text":"我們\n當然希望它是在內政委員會，但是逕付二讀後就到了今天的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:43.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:57.219857+08:00","text":"所以我希望主席能夠理解，\n會議才剛開始，我是第一個發言的委員，不要說大家又講重複的話、不要扯太多，come on！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:57.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:44:59.519857+08:00","text":"我\n們才剛坐下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:44:59.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:45:02.962714+08:00","text":"希望、希望，你儘量講，我就聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:45:03.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:46:10.977000+08:00","text":"所以說我以歷次選罷法幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告，2015 年修選罷法，將政黨\n補助的門檻由 5%下修至 3.5%，那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員，他在委員會審查\n三次，委員會沒有共識，後續交付朝野協商，協商的次數是兩次，這是同樣的選罷法；2016 年\n選罷法也修了，就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻，也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃\n國昌提案，罷免完全不需要有門檻的那一次，那一次也是陳其邁當召委，在委員會討論五次、\n協商兩次；同樣是選罷法，在 2023 年針對公職候選人的排黑條款，排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委\n員，委員會討論的次數是七次、協商的次數是兩次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:46:11.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:46:32.705571+08:00","text":"我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉\n罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案，選罷法歷次的修正都由委員會充分討論，討論三次、討論五\n次、討論七次，也有充分的朝野協商，各協商兩次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:46:33.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:47:57.291286+08:00","text":"所以我真的很衷心希望剛剛思銘委員……\n其實我對思銘委員非常的尊重，您所說的不是只是過水，你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履\n行讓大家討論的這個前提，如果今天能夠讓大家好好的討論，我援引過去選罷法修正花了這麼\n多次、這麼多討論的時間，我非常期待，不要預設了一個立場，思銘委員應該要做的一件事情\n是，也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長，跟他說相信林思銘，你會好好如您所說的，在黨團協\n商的歷程過程當中會好好地讓委員充分表達意見，韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場、認為今\n天協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水，也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報\n360\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n告，無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:47:57.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:48:54.734143+08:00","text":"否則外界也非\n常疑惑，韓院長就預先排了明天朝野協商要處理選罷法，那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會來處\n理，我不希望發生這樣的事情，這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的職權行使，不應當是快轉、不\n應當是過水、不應當是強渡關山，所以我先起了這個，程序上歷次修選罷法在委員會層級充分\n討論，協商的次數也充分討論，像過去這樣修法的經驗，我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋\n友們、提案的委員們不要為快而快、不要為修而修、不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人\n民的權利。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:48:55.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:49:09.034143+08:00","text":"這是程序上的發言，我先報告到這裡，稍後實質法案的內容部分，我也有很多準備\n要討論的內容，再請主席給我時間，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:49:09.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:49:11.334143+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:49:11.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:49:29.348429+08:00","text":"那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員：林倩綺委員、翁曉玲委員、蘇巧\n慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪申翰委員、張宏陸委員、陳培瑜委員，大家都很關心這個案子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:49:29.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:49:57.648429+08:00","text":"我想\n明天不管是……因為我們沒有預設立場，如果今天能夠協商達成共識，當然是最好的，但是韓\n院長或許他有他的考量，我們也不要去預設立場說他就一定怎樣怎樣，我是很不喜歡去猜人家\n說怎樣怎樣，反正我們一切按照議事程序走，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:49:57.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:50:00.519857+08:00","text":"現在請蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:50:00.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:50:21.962714+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們今天朝野協商，本來收到的就是今天 4 點半大家來協商，但是我們收\n到韓國瑜院長明天排 3 點的協商，一樣是要研商這個選罷法，那我們覺得很奇怪的就是說，有\n這麼急嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:50:22.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:50:49.119857+08:00","text":"因為我們知道說今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣，但是如果協商不成就換院長排\n，那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論的情況下就先排了明天的協商，那我們可以預測，就是\n禮拜五要表決了，就是今天、明天、禮拜五，有這麼急嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:50:49.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:51:04.848429+08:00","text":"這個涉及到人民選舉、罷免、創制\n、複決，這是最重要的公民參與政治的權利，這東西多討論一些，用多一點時間讓大家討論又\n會怎樣呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:51:05.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:51:29.148429+08:00","text":"何必急著，今天黨團協商、明天院長協商、禮拜五表決，然後就說結束了、三讀通\n過了，然後以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高，以後光是要成案都非常的困難，讓罷免的權利\n……從此以後要看到罷免大概就很困難了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:51:29.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:51:40.305571+08:00","text":"我們就再回到這件事的本源，就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:51:40.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:51:58.319857+08:00","text":"如果這個門檻是不合理的、不合理到你隨便要找人出來罷免某個人都可以罷免成功，那這一次\n基隆市長的罷免就會過了啊，後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:51:58.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:52:18.334143+08:00","text":"可以證明說現在這一個制度所訂的這\n個罷免門檻，你看有些人會被罷免成功，但大部分是罷免失敗，大部分是失敗，所以在現行的\n制度之下，它的門檻是高的，沒那麼簡單。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:52:18.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:52:50.919857+08:00","text":"所以我們現在要討論選罷法，然後把罷免門檻大幅\n增加，而且這個增加是讓未來連成案都產生困難，因為你知道你要去連署罷免，然後你要繳交\n身分證的影本給這個罷免團體，要你交身分證影本給人家，現在大家重視個資的保護，我們要\n把身分證交給人家是何其嚴重的事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:52:51.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:53:20.934143+08:00","text":"所以我們認為說在罷免的時候，沒有必要把它的門檻拉\n到說你連讓它成案的難度會高到這樣一個程度，我們還是覺得說大家在程序上要三思，我們多\n一點討論，若今天協商不成，主席你可以再排一次協商，你可以下禮拜再排協商，何必這樣連\n三天連三關？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:53:21.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:53:38.091286+08:00","text":"這樣看起來，你們國民黨、藍白的用意就很清楚了，你們就是禮拜五要用人數的\n優勢強行表決通過，看起來你們目的就是這樣，你就直接講嘛！不然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:53:38.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:53:41.248429+08:00","text":"我覺得我們今天的協商","quality":0},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T18:53:41.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:12.977000+08:00","text":"我們今天協商不成，我下禮拜還要排，那我會去跟韓院長說請他明天先不要\n361\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n排，這件事我林思銘有信心，我可以好好的溝通，我今天排完，我下禮拜再排，讓真的關心選\n罷法的人都可以來這裡暢所欲言，讓他多說幾句，這才是民主的真諦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"，主席你可以說","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:13.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:31.277000+08:00","text":"尤其我們現在要行使的\n這個修法，是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的權利，我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候，是不是在\n討論上再多一點程序的討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:31.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:39.005571+08:00","text":"就像你現在讓我們說，我們大家就覺得我們要表達我們的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:39.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:43.305571+08:00","text":"好，我會讓你們說，但是針對主題講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:43.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:49.034143+08:00","text":"而且我們每一個人，然後我要跟主席講，不能說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:49.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:54:53.048429+08:00","text":"主席，你不能講說誰在重複發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:54:53.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:00.205571+08:00","text":"縱使是同樣的一句話，不同的人說就代表不同的民意基礎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:00.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:13.077000+08:00","text":"我們每一個人，縱使是區域立委跟不分區立委，不分區立委也是有他的選票，他是政\n黨票，都有他的民意基礎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:13.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:25.091286+08:00","text":"你不可以去說，誰講了，誰又講重複了，所以後面的人就不能講，我們覺得這樣做不\n對，讓大家充分討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:25.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:27.105571+08:00","text":"我會給你們講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:27.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:38.834143+08:00","text":"我想大家也尊重我這個主席，因為我不希望聽到就是說同樣一件事情不斷的\n複誦。No！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:39.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:41.991286+08:00","text":"我剛才講了，這不是複誦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:42.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:45.719857+08:00","text":"所以我希望，你表達你的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:46.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:50.591286+08:00","text":"因為我們每個人代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:50.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:55:54.034143+08:00","text":"我們代表不同選區的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:55:54.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:01.191286+08:00","text":"把意見表達出來，我們就是儘量表達你的意見，但是就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:01.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:05.205571+08:00","text":"我儘量表達，但是不能說是重複……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:05.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:09.791286+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，你等一下第二輪發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:10.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:11.519857+08:00","text":"那我剛剛講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:11.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:17.248429+08:00","text":"第二輪發言都重複的意見，第二輪又是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:17.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:19.262714+08:00","text":"我還沒第二輪。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:19.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:21.277000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:21.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:25.291286+08:00","text":"他還沒有第二輪，不要預設立場！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:25.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:28.448429+08:00","text":"我第二輪會講別的東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:28.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:33.034143+08:00","text":"362\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:33.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:38.762714+08:00","text":"謝謝，你第二輪講別的東西，我們才會整個聚焦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:39.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:43.062714+08:00","text":"我對於今天的協商我提出訴求嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:43.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:44.505571+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:44.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:45.805571+08:00","text":"上禮拜……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:46.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:47.248429+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:47.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:56:50.977000+08:00","text":"我在尊重，我在跟主席溝通啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:56:51.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:06.705571+08:00","text":"各位，真的，我希望這樣子，大家不要把同樣的事情，第一輪講這樣，第二輪又講一樣，第\n三輪又講這樣，這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:07.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:09.291286+08:00","text":"各位，就這樣了，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:09.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:13.591286+08:00","text":"主席在跟我講重複發言這件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:13.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:17.319857+08:00","text":"謝謝，好啦，好啦，OK，易餘 OK……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:17.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:20.191286+08:00","text":"我現在要說的重點是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:20.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:27.634143+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛問我，我回答你，我是希望你第二輪發言不要重複。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:27.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:35.934143+08:00","text":"我要說的重點是不要說誰是重複發言，每個人都有代表不同的意志。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:36.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:40.805571+08:00","text":"這我回答你了，希望你第二輪不要一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:41.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:45.677000+08:00","text":"我第二輪會避開，我不會講同樣的東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:45.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:57:59.119857+08:00","text":"但是我具體的訴求就是我們看到了韓院長明天也排了協商，所以這代表禮拜五就是要\n排表決了，二讀、三讀下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:57:59.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:03.705571+08:00","text":"院長他有他的……這個我不能幫他決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:04.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:07.434143+08:00","text":"我們這樣看起來的話，就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:07.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:15.448429+08:00","text":"你今天叫我們來這裡過水，你叫我們來這邊過水，我們是不接受的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:15.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:20.319857+08:00","text":"好，OK，丁學忠委員也到場參與了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:20.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:24.905571+08:00","text":"現在我們以舉手先後，請許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:25.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:58:26.348429+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:58:26.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:59:14.362714+08:00","text":"其實剛剛有特別提到為什麼這個案子會逕付二讀，我來喚醒一下大家的記\n憶，我們其實在內政委員會有排審兩次，一次在這裡，當時民進黨的委員們占領主席台，讓我\n們沒有辦法審查；第二次高金召委又排案了一次，也是一樣，半夜就有人闖進內政委員會，導\n致我們也沒辦法排案審查，經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭，所以為什麼當時會逕付二\n讀，主要是這樣的原因，並不是我們不排案審查，這第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:59:14.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:59:51.519857+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛蔡易餘書記長特別\n有提到說，針對我這次的提案希望能附上身分證影本的部分，他認為個資的問題非常嚴重，可\n是我這邊有一個是蔡易餘委員跟吳秉叡委員的提案，針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文，就是要\n附上身分證影本的提案，表示當時蔡易餘委員既然都覺得要附上身分證影本的提案是正確的\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T18:59:51.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T18:59:53.534143+08:00","text":"那是發證日期！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T18:59:53.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:09.834143+08:00","text":"沒有喔，你的是不管是發證日期或是身分證影本的話，就是認為說，因為你發證影本\n363\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也必須要去對嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:10.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:20.705571+08:00","text":"然後就是我們看到，在上個會期第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他\n們也針對公投法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:21.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:26.148429+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡，等一下，等一下，那個不用附影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:26.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:29.877000+08:00","text":"我先講完，等一下換你，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:30.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:31.891286+08:00","text":"尊重發言委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:32.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:34.191286+08:00","text":"他有插你的話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:34.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:36.205571+08:00","text":"那個講錯了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:36.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:43.934143+08:00","text":"不是，那我剛剛也沒插你的話，讓我講完你就可以再說明，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:44.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:00:51.377000+08:00","text":"各位委員，發言委員在發言的時候，大家儘量不要插話，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:00:51.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:01:49.677000+08:00","text":"另外就是在第 10 屆的時候，蘇巧慧委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出公投法的修正條文\n草案，吳思瑤委員也是連署人，裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料，貼附本人國民身分證的影本\n，這在第 10 屆的提案，表示說其實有很多民進黨的委員也都認同應該要附上身分證影本，所以\n我覺得這個只是一個資格，你說要怎麼樣，我覺得每個連署人或是提議人，他本來就有那個責\n任要去保護每個人的個資，也就是他收到身分證影本，他要善盡保護的責任，否則現在總統的\n選舉辦法就不用也是要這樣附身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:01:49.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:01:59.977000+08:00","text":"所以我想這個部分，應該是附上身分證影本只是加\n強對連署的嚴謹性跟公平性，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:00.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:08.277000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員，我以舉手先後啦，各位委員有舉手我會登記下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:08.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:13.434143+08:00","text":"現在請王鴻薇委員\n，再請張宏陸委員準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:13.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:16.591286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，主席也很辛苦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:16.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:32.319857+08:00","text":"今天選罷法的協商，大家也可以看到民進黨很大陣仗的來\n做關心跟發言，但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方，我們必須要去做一個澄清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:32.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:38.619857+08:00","text":"剛才吳思瑤幹事長\n一直強調說為什麼不能討論呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:38.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:02:42.634143+08:00","text":"應該好好在內政委員會討論呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:02:42.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:13.791286+08:00","text":"可是我想大家都記得，我想大\n家記憶力不是那麼淺，我們的腦袋應該不是金魚腦，在上個會期，當時高金素梅擔任召委，曾\n經有兩次的排審，第一次的排審還排到吳秉叡委員，也就是蔡易餘委員也當共同提案人的案子\n，在那一次大家應該也非常清楚，當時可以討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:14.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:16.091286+08:00","text":"當時可以討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:16.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:22.677000+08:00","text":"因為民進黨的委員全部\n都占據在主席台上，記不記得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:22.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:29.548429+08:00","text":"後來我們沒有辦法，只好把會議室改到群賢樓，那個時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:29.848429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:32.134143+08:00","text":"不是群賢樓，是隔壁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:32.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:34.719857+08:00","text":"不是啦，那是第二次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:35.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:39.591286+08:00","text":"我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:39.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:41.605571+08:00","text":"有啊，你忘記了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:41.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:03:51.619857+08:00","text":"你忘\n記了，你們占據主席台，我待會會講到，你們占據主席台可能占領的非常習慣了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:03:51.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:04:26.491286+08:00","text":"在第一次是 7\n月 4 日，7 月 4 日排審，然後沒有辦法，所以當時的召委只好來換會議室，可是那時候占據內政\n委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們，幾乎是軟禁我們相關的議事人員，讓他們無法離開，這就是\n要討論的民進黨黨團，用這樣的方式討論，用軟禁議事人員的方式，讓他不能夠開會，達成不\n能開會的目的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:04:26.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:04:38.505571+08:00","text":"所以我覺得我現在在這邊，聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談「我們需\n要討論啊」、「充分討論啊」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:04:38.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:04:54.234143+08:00","text":"我覺得可能我們今天需要感謝的是，還好今天民進黨團在這個\n協商會議沒有占領主席台，讓這個協商根本開不成，所以 7 月 4 日是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:04:54.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:05.677000+08:00","text":"我想吳思瑤委員只\n記得 7 月 8 日那一場，我們換了議場，當天黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:05.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:25.977000+08:00","text":"我不曉得\n364\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n在凌晨的時候，在整個還沒有開議、還沒有開門的時候，就直接把門打開了，這個事情我覺得\n韓國瑜院長是非常的寬厚，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:26.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:27.991286+08:00","text":"破壞公物至此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:28.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:40.577000+08:00","text":"所以請問一下，當時民進黨黨團想要討論的話，為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天不是都在\n開會討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:40.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:50.305571+08:00","text":"我不是內政委員會，也大概是 8 點以前嘛，大家來登記發言嘛，來做討論、來做\n陳述嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:50.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:51.748429+08:00","text":"但是能嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:52.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:55.191286+08:00","text":"請問一下，民進黨給討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:55.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:05:57.777000+08:00","text":"民進黨團給討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:05:58.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:02.648429+08:00","text":"所以今天在這邊指責國\n民黨團說幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:02.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:03.948429+08:00","text":"急什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:04.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:07.391286+08:00","text":"逕付二讀，為什麼不給討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:07.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:09.119857+08:00","text":"不敢討論嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:09.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:13.134143+08:00","text":"問題是民進黨黨團不給討\n論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:13.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:34.577000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講，就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺，當然如果說立法院本來就是講道理\n的地方，大家論述的地方，所以以今天來說，說是韓國瑜院長對我們林思銘書記長沒有信心嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:34.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:51.448429+08:00","text":"我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心，連內政委員會好好的排案，你們都不願意討論，都要\n霸占主席台，請問一下，我們還如何的好好說道理呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:51.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:06:56.319857+08:00","text":"另外，剛才蔡易餘書記長一直在講說「啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:06:56.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:06.048429+08:00","text":"你們現在就這樣設定啦，今天過水啦，明天就是\n院長做朝野協商，星期五就要表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:06.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:15.491286+08:00","text":"」好厲害喔，我也是黨團幹部，我們在黨團內部都沒有討\n論到的事情，哇，你都知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:15.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:22.077000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，星期五的設定，應該是民進黨團的設定吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:22.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:33.805571+08:00","text":"應該是\n民進黨團的設定，因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候，已經在立法院附近搶下路權了，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:34.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:37.248429+08:00","text":"搶路權應該是在上個禮拜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:37.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:42.405571+08:00","text":"所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:42.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:44.705571+08:00","text":"是青鳥設定的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:45.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:47.577000+08:00","text":"是民進\n黨團設定的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:47.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:58.162714+08:00","text":"是你們控制青鳥，還是青鳥控制你們，我不知道，因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議\n場，忘記了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:58.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:07:59.605571+08:00","text":"忘記了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:07:59.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:08:05.334143+08:00","text":"上個會期不就在那邊青鳥要要飛進立法院嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:08:05.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:08:32.205571+08:00","text":"好，所以我要講的是\n，要討論、要協商，國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序，包括剛才吳思瑤委員講說星期一的時候覺\n得還是要在內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商，我們也從善如流，我要講的是，我們絕對釋出絕\n對的善意，不會因人廢言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:08:32.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:08:35.934143+08:00","text":"為什麼今天有這樣的協商呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:08:36.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:08:44.234143+08:00","text":"我們也是從善如流，但是我們真的要\n回頭想一想，到底誰不願意協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:08:44.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:08:48.534143+08:00","text":"另外，不願意討論的是你們，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:08:48.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:09:23.977000+08:00","text":"我要特別講的就是說，我相信待會可能民進黨團的同仁會談到，哎呀，怎麼樣的是違背、打\n壓公民的權利，罷免的權利、創制複決等等的權利，那我們要講的是，在我們一些相關的連署\n裡面，有身分證影本的，包含總統的連署，總統選舉的連署也是需要身分證影本，所以這不是\n獨一無二的，這不是獨一無二的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:09:24.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:09:49.705571+08:00","text":"另外我們希望能夠確認在整個罷免的過程中，有一些我們過\n去發現的疏漏，或者我們發現有一些其實反而是傷害了罷免的權利，所以我們把它稍做補強，\n沒有提高門檻，只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保沒有假冒的情事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:09:50.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:09:58.291286+08:00","text":"過去確實很多連署會出現死人\n連署的狀況，這個大家也講的非常多了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:09:58.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:09.448429+08:00","text":"剛才許宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉叡委員跟蔡易\n餘委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:09.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:11.748429+08:00","text":"我們不用身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:12.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:15.477000+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:15.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:18.062714+08:00","text":"你待會還可以講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:18.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:21.219857+08:00","text":"你講的與事實不符。有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:21.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:24.091286+08:00","text":"我哪一句與事實不符？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:24.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:26.962714+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:27.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:30.119857+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:30.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:32.991286+08:00","text":"我講了你的法案了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:33.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:38.148429+08:00","text":"365\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:38.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:40.162714+08:00","text":"你在緊張什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:40.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:43.034143+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員不要緊張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:43.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:44.477000+08:00","text":"你講錯了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:44.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:46.491286+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:46.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:50.505571+08:00","text":"是拿發證日期，把它打上去而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:50.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:54.519857+08:00","text":"我還沒唸啊，你怎麼那麼緊張啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:54.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:57.105571+08:00","text":"你講錯了，你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:57.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:10:58.405571+08:00","text":"我沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:10:58.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:01.848429+08:00","text":"你說的根本跟事實不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:02.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:03.291286+08:00","text":"你誤導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:03.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:07.877000+08:00","text":"根本沒有，你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:08.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:10.748429+08:00","text":"我是寫填具發證日期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:11.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:18.762714+08:00","text":"我只講到吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員共同提案的法案，這樣講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:19.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:21.919857+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要身分證影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:22.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:23.934143+08:00","text":"你說要身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:24.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:26.805571+08:00","text":"我沒有講，我還沒講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:27.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:28.819857+08:00","text":"有啦，你講了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:29.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:30.262714+08:00","text":"你講錯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:30.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:31.991286+08:00","text":"我沒有講錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:32.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:34.005571+08:00","text":"調影帶好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:34.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:35.448429+08:00","text":"好，你去調。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:35.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:36.891286+08:00","text":"調影帶啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:37.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:40.619857+08:00","text":"不要插我的話，不要插我的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:40.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:44.348429+08:00","text":"調一下影帶看有沒有講錯嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:44.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:46.648429+08:00","text":"你不要插我的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:46.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:11:48.948429+08:00","text":"講錯了，一直誤導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:11:49.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:12:40.962714+08:00","text":"我現在就來唸一下吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員等 21 人所提案的案由，他說鑑於近幾次\n罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書，顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重，讓有心人士藉大量的個人\n資料假冒提議連署，已經違反個人的資料保護，且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇\n，若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署，不可不謂已足以生損害於公眾或他人，為了避免假冒情事\n的發生，爰擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案，以完善罷免制度規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:12:41.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:13:25.834143+08:00","text":"所以我要講的\n是，我們現在覺得整個罷免流程有一些流弊，有一些疏失，甚至吳秉叡委員、蔡易餘委員都認\n為這樣的連署制度漏洞嚴重，所以之前吳秉叡委員有提案，只是後來你們撤案了，但是這不代\n表這些問題已經被解決了，所以民進黨撤案，國民黨基於負責任的態度，提出我們的版本，一\n樣的出發點，也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞，也是一樣去把這些可能產生的流弊加以解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:13:26.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:13:45.277000+08:00","text":"366\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n所以請問一下，你不能說民進黨提案好棒棒，就是什麼要減少流弊等等，國民黨提案就是危害\n到公民的罷免權，不要這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:13:45.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:13:53.291286+08:00","text":"永遠都是綠能你不能，這樣子的標準是不應該的，不要綠\n能你不能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:13:53.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:13:57.877000+08:00","text":"再來，即使內容不相同，不是完全相同……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:13:58.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:13:59.319857+08:00","text":"你承認了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:13:59.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:02.191286+08:00","text":"對，你講了，內容不相同！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:02.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:04.205571+08:00","text":"我講了，所以呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:04.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:05.505571+08:00","text":"所以啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:05.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:07.805571+08:00","text":"就是內容不相同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:08.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:10.962714+08:00","text":"那所以啊，你讓我講話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:11.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:14.405571+08:00","text":"你剛才說我亂講，說我講錯……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:14.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:18.134143+08:00","text":"我沒有說身分證，你講錯了啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:18.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:19.862714+08:00","text":"我講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:20.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:22.448429+08:00","text":"你第七十六條內容……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:22.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:25.605571+08:00","text":"我到現在為止講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:25.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:27.619857+08:00","text":"他承認不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:27.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:29.348429+08:00","text":"請尊重發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:29.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:31.362714+08:00","text":"他在跟我對話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:31.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:33.662714+08:00","text":"我到底講錯什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:33.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:35.962714+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:36.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:38.548429+08:00","text":"他現在是在問我話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:38.848429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:41.705571+08:00","text":"到現在到底講錯什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:42.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:44.862714+08:00","text":"不一樣啊，你第七十六條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:45.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:49.734143+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們尊重委員的發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:50.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:52.605571+08:00","text":"我在講話，我還在講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:52.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:55.762714+08:00","text":"你手上就有，還沒說完嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:56.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:14:59.205571+08:00","text":"我還沒講完，你在緊張什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:14:59.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:01.219857+08:00","text":"把它唸出來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:01.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:03.234143+08:00","text":"我還沒講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:03.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:05.819857+08:00","text":"等他講完就 5 點半了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:06.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:10.405571+08:00","text":"對不對，我還沒講完你在緊張什麼嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:10.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:13.562714+08:00","text":"等一下把它全部唸出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:13.862714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:17.862714+08:00","text":"我們可以看到，我現在就要講了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:18.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:19.162714+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:19.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:21.462714+08:00","text":"不要緊張，對不對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:21.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:24.048429+08:00","text":"是你緊張不敢唸吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:24.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:27.777000+08:00","text":"我幹嘛緊張，我現在就要唸啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:28.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:29.791286+08:00","text":"條文唸出來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:30.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:34.377000+08:00","text":"367\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:34.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:35.819857+08:00","text":"不要拖嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:36.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:37.262714+08:00","text":"不要緊張！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:37.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:38.705571+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:39.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:40.148429+08:00","text":"不要著急！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:40.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:15:41.877000+08:00","text":"誰在緊張啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:15:42.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:16:56.177000+08:00","text":"以吳秉叡委員和蔡易餘委員共同提案的版本來看，有我們國民身分證統一編號，還有\n發證日期，還有戶籍地址分村（里）等等之類的，所以這個版本比較不一樣的地方就是增加了\n「發證日期」，而國民黨的版本再做精進，除了發證日期之外，也參考了總統副總統選罷法裡\n面有關於總統副總統連署的規定，在連署的過程裡面也要求要有身分證影本，我們認為，選舉\n總統跟副總統非常重要，不應該出現什麼抄名冊、去抄公會名冊，甚至有一些死人連署等等狀\n況；同樣的，在罷免也是一樣，我們也尊重公民的罷免權，但是我們也體會到，如同吳秉叡跟\n蔡易餘委員所提到這些相關的流弊，所以我們提出來的版本是要有身分證影本還有發證日期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:16:56.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:08.477000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，其實大家都有注意到在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題，當然，民進黨團說\n：你們急什麼！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:08.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:10.205571+08:00","text":"你們怕什麼！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:10.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:16.791286+08:00","text":"你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:17.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:37.377000+08:00","text":"我要跟大家報告的是，剛才\n我忘記是蔡易餘委員還是吳思瑤委員提到，像之前結束不久的謝國樑罷免案，事實上，謝國樑\n不但是過關，而且算是過關得滿漂亮的，所以其實我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:37.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:39.391286+08:00","text":"就不要怕罷免！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:39.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:41.405571+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:41.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:42.848429+08:00","text":"我在講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:43.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:46.577000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:46.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:48.591286+08:00","text":"給你們拍拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:48.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:50.034143+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:50.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:17:51.477000+08:00","text":"趕快拍手！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:17:51.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:01.205571+08:00","text":"我們是基於整體來考量，否則今天如果按照謝國樑經驗，我們\n幹嘛怕罷免啊！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:01.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:03.219857+08:00","text":"那就不要怕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:03.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:09.805571+08:00","text":"我們沒有怕罷免，因為只要正面對決，所以我要講的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:10.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:11.534143+08:00","text":"不要怕罷免！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:11.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:13.262714+08:00","text":"我告訴你啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:13.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:16.991286+08:00","text":"請尊重一下發言委員好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:17.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:19.005571+08:00","text":"讓她繼續講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:19.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:23.591286+08:00","text":"這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:23.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:29.891286+08:00","text":"不會黨意凌駕民意，然後你想想看，我真的是不\n解啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:30.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:35.905571+08:00","text":"蔡易餘副書記長，我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:36.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:41.062714+08:00","text":"我這個版本不用身分證正反面影本！對嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:41.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:46.791286+08:00","text":"我們法案很多，大家都有不同版本，大家來討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:47.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:52.519857+08:00","text":"我那個版本，請看一下說明，說明欄你讀一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:52.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:54.534143+08:00","text":"好，待會你來講！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:54.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:18:57.977000+08:00","text":"我剛才都沒有講錯，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:18:58.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:08.277000+08:00","text":"增加……小而且少用的獨特個資身分證發證日期……反正不是說……身分證正反面影\n本放進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:08.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:12.577000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，這個版本好不好？你說！你說！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:12.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:16.591286+08:00","text":"你說你共同提案的版本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:16.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:19.462714+08:00","text":"你提案的版\n本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:19.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:24.048429+08:00","text":"368\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:24.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:27.491286+08:00","text":"不用有正反影本……不是！不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:27.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:30.934143+08:00","text":"你這個提案的版本好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:31.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:34.091286+08:00","text":"我覺得我的版本一般般。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:34.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:36.105571+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:36.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:38.119857+08:00","text":"你講得這麼好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:38.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:40.134143+08:00","text":"那是吳秉叡的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:40.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:43.577000+08:00","text":"在場人員：支持蔡易餘版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:43.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:45.877000+08:00","text":"我沒辦法支持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:46.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:47.319857+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:47.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:48.762714+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:49.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:51.348429+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！好啦！好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:51.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:55.077000+08:00","text":"我們今天不要處理了，我再提！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:55.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:56.519857+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:56.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:57.962714+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:58.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:19:59.405571+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:19:59.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:01.134143+08:00","text":"我再提一個！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:01.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:02.577000+08:00","text":"你撤案啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:02.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:04.591286+08:00","text":"我們幫你提啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:04.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:06.891286+08:00","text":"不要你們幫我提！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:07.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:08.905571+08:00","text":"你們寫的不好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:09.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:13.491286+08:00","text":"你們把它當作垃圾的東西，你們因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:13.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:16.077000+08:00","text":"我們是完全不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:16.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:19.234143+08:00","text":"那個只是再加填入資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:19.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:24.391286+08:00","text":"所以蔡易餘委員，如果我是你，我就哭哭啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:24.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:38.405571+08:00","text":"我會覺得我自己很努力提出的版本，結\n果為了你們要去占領主席臺，其實那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:38.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:41.562714+08:00","text":"你們的版本就是不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:41.862714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:47.291286+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號，我要再 recall 你們的記憶好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:47.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:50.162714+08:00","text":"怎麼記憶會這麼淺咧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:50.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:52.748429+08:00","text":"記憶這麼淺，對\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:53.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:56.762714+08:00","text":"7 月 4 號就是要討論吳秉叡的版本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:57.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:20:58.205571+08:00","text":"增加門檻……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:20:58.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:02.219857+08:00","text":"7 月 4 日是你這個版本喔！No！No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:02.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:06.234143+08:00","text":"蔡易餘，你把你版本、提案當垃圾……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:06.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:09.391286+08:00","text":"有……跟你的版本都有喔！對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:09.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:11.119857+08:00","text":"他很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:11.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:14.848429+08:00","text":"他已經撤案，但高金還是要排。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:15.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:16.862714+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:17.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:18.305571+08:00","text":"他撤案了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:18.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:20.319857+08:00","text":"我們撤案了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:20.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:24.048429+08:00","text":"沒錯，你講你撤案，你幹嘛撤案！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:24.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:26.919857+08:00","text":"你告訴我你幹嘛撤案！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:27.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:29.219857+08:00","text":"我們撤案不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:29.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:32.662714+08:00","text":"因為你們要占領主席臺嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:32.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:34.962714+08:00","text":"因為你們把 7 月 4 號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:35.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:37.834143+08:00","text":"都你在說，換人說了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:38.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:39.848429+08:00","text":"你講這麼久了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:40.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:51.005571+08:00","text":"我會留給你，王委員，沒關係，我一定會留給你講，但是我一定要還原，不然大家忘\n記了，我很害怕！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:51.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:54.448429+08:00","text":"讓大家把自己的意思講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:54.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:21:59.034143+08:00","text":"369\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:21:59.334143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:05.334143+08:00","text":"大家忘記了，講來講去，好像是我們不讓你們做什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:05.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:12.777000+08:00","text":"主席，你都只制止民進黨委員的發言，你為什麼不制止王鴻薇？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:13.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:20.219857+08:00","text":"你都只打斷民進黨委員的發言，你只打斷蔡易餘委員的發言！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:20.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:21.948429+08:00","text":"主席不公啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:22.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:24.248429+08:00","text":"下一個是誰發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:24.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:27.119857+08:00","text":"明明就是輪到張宏陸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:27.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:37.991286+08:00","text":"各位委員，我們就是一定要黨派穿插發言，不可能每一個都這樣，麥玉珍講一下再換張宏陸\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:38.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:40.862714+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是這樣講的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:41.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:42.591286+08:00","text":"先讓主席說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:42.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:22:58.319857+08:00","text":"各位，我們協商，各個黨的意見我們都要聽，所以我們現在請民眾黨，因為第一輪他第一次\n發言，所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪發言。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:22:58.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:04.334143+08:00","text":"各黨團都要有第一輪發言，他只有一個人，尊重他！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:04.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:05.777000+08:00","text":"不要插話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:06.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:12.077000+08:00","text":"我們非常尊重他，他也可以 30 分鐘，這樣就超過 5 點半了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:12.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:14.377000+08:00","text":"我沒有那麼會講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:14.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:16.677000+08:00","text":"沒關係！感謝！感謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:16.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:23:19.262714+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:23:19.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:24:05.277000+08:00","text":"我想要跟大家講，因為我們是要協調，大家要協\n商，的確，選罷法在實務上就是存有很多的問題，所以我們才要去修，因為大家覺得不公平，\n特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞，不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出修法，所以每一\n個人都知道這個是不完整的，包含死人連署或者抄樁腳名單等等，就是有這些亂象，進而嚴重\n的影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力，還有無視連署真實表達的意義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:24:05.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:24:50.434143+08:00","text":"選罷法中罷免制度的設計，應該就是汰除機制，而不是為政黨的服務，所以為了維護選罷法\n，我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本，但是我們是有幾個堅持，為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性，唯\n有透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序，才能避免連署的假象，還有就是讓罷免的制度更透明，所以\n我們台灣民眾黨秉持的就是理性、務實、科學的理念，對於選罷法的修正討論，我們不贊成盲\n目的提高罷免門檻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:24:50.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:07.591286+08:00","text":"從之前大家霸占主席臺的時候，我也是一直在表態這個問題，所以我要進\n來看到一堆人的時候，我也嚇到了，今天不是相干的人，怎麼都在這裡啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:07.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:12.177000+08:00","text":"370\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:12.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:13.905571+08:00","text":"什麼不相干？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:14.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:17.348429+08:00","text":"沒有不相干！有！有！尊重！尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:17.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:18.648429+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:18.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:19.948429+08:00","text":"請尊重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:20.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:26.248429+08:00","text":"好，如果都相干大家都被罷免，因為大家都\n是委員嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:26.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:28.262714+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:28.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:38.277000+08:00","text":"因為大家都有機會被罷免，不是只有國民黨還是誰，大家都會有機\n會，因為每一個人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:38.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:42.291286+08:00","text":"你說得對，不相干的人也進來了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:42.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:44.305571+08:00","text":"那是陳智菡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:44.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:45.605571+08:00","text":"陳智菡！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:45.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:47.905571+08:00","text":"先讓麥委員講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:48.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:25:57.919857+08:00","text":"這些人都是助理來提供協助，不會不相干，但是他也是我的助理，也可以來，是主任\n嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T19:25:58.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:02.219857+08:00","text":"那……你說不相干，我跟你都不分區耶……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:02.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:04.234143+08:00","text":"聽我講完好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:04.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:19.962714+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完，你們就打斷了，我是說不相干內政委員會的委員，畢\n竟平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員，很和樂，大家來討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:20.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:33.691286+08:00","text":"但是那天我進來，我自\n己也嚇到，怎麼那麼多不同委員會的委員都在這裡，我以為大家在辦什麼活動，是不是公聽會\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:33.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:35.419857+08:00","text":"大家同樂啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:35.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:40.291286+08:00","text":"我才知道你們來這邊開 party 嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:40.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:44.877000+08:00","text":"所以我後面才知道，我沒有參與到嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:45.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:26:53.748429+08:00","text":"因為我不敢\n進來，大家說你不要進來，等一下被他們打的話，沒有人保護你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:26:54.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:27:04.905571+08:00","text":"我就說，我不知道是怎麼回\n事，所以我就不進來，我只有簽名，然後等開會，但是後來就沒有開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:27:05.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:27:41.777000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子，所以我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻，我們從頭到尾都是這樣子的表態，因為\n對公民權利還有過渡的機制，民眾黨主張應該比照總統副總統選舉的連署程序，要求要有身分\n證，以保連署的真實性，這就是預防死人連署的亂象，也確保罷免程序的正當性，因為每一個\n委員都是一票一票選出來的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:27:42.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:27:58.077000+08:00","text":"我們選舉的時候，身分證都要去看清楚，否則對當選的\n人進行罷免的時候也很不公平，所以我們要求要公平，所以才不會亂用政治的工具。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:27:58.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:28:16.662714+08:00","text":"選罷法的修正關係到整體選舉體制的公正性，還有我們臺灣寶島的民主價值，我們呼籲大家\n，不管是任何人，因為大家都是選民選出來的，我們要理性的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:28:16.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:28:30.105571+08:00","text":"關於這個選罷法，大家要\n達成共識，看看怎麼樣比較好，因為不是只有國民黨被罷免，民進黨也可能被罷免，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:28:30.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:28:41.548429+08:00","text":"未來我們民眾黨很多立委如果是用選票選上來的，不是政黨票選上的，也有可能被罷免，對不\n對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:28:41.848429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:29:02.991286+08:00","text":"所以我們希望，每一個人不僅選舉公平，罷免也要公平，這樣子的話才不會好不容易花很\n多精神選上了，但是要罷免時卻有證件不足隨便簽連署的情況，這樣子的話對大家都不公平。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:29:03.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:29:36.148429+08:00","text":"也就是因為這樣，看看要怎麼樣提出修正，讓其更健全的制度，展現我們應有的效率，讓臺灣\n的選舉可以更加進步，我們希望是這樣，所以今天在此就是表達我們的立場，選罷法我們要去\n修改，但是門檻我們真的希望還是要嚴謹，對大家最公平，最有保障，這個就是我們的發言，\n謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-10-23T19:29:36.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:29:40.734143+08:00","text":"371\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:29:41.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:29:45.891286+08:00","text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員，充分表達民眾黨的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:29:46.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:29:51.334143+08:00","text":"申翰等一下，因為宏陸先舉手，請張宏陸委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:29:51.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:30:16.491286+08:00","text":"我覺得，修正選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身的利益是有相關聯的，我們當一個立法\n委員，利益迴避應該是最基本的，當修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下，我\n個人認為，其實應該要充分的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:30:16.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:30:42.505571+08:00","text":"剛剛聽了大家都這樣講，好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論，則我覺得我們應該就是在委\n員會可以充分的討論，而且我覺得，如果要修這個法，因為公投法也有連署的問題，我覺得我\n們應該一併討論，一併來處理，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:30:42.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:30:47.377000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:30:47.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:31:11.962714+08:00","text":"因此，有兩個理由，第一個，這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關，有利益迴避的問題，如果\n沒有充分的討論，我覺得很難對社會大眾交代，這是第一個；第二個，我認為要討論的話，連\n公投法也應該要一起討論，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:31:12.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:31:19.405571+08:00","text":"我記得上上屆在修公投法的時候，國民黨也是極力的反對\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:31:19.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:31:46.277000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣的情況之下，我們大家一起好好坐下來，把公投法也一起拿來檢視，把選罷法\n也一起拿來檢視，好好的討論，這樣子才不會立法院只修一個選罷法，卻把公投法放在那邊，\n那在臺灣就會變成連署的方式有好幾種，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:31:46.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:13.434143+08:00","text":"就剛剛大家講的，總統的有一種連署，選罷法的好像又跟總統的比較相似，然後公投法又要\n綁在那邊，我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法院所有立法委員可以做出來的事情，所以我在這邊\n跟主席報告，剛剛我聽大家好像都有說，好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:13.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:15.448429+08:00","text":"就充分討論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:15.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:40.319857+08:00","text":"在委員會要討論，所以我們就\n一起把所有跟選舉相關的法令拿出來大家好好討論，主席，我的具體建議是這樣，我們立法院\n針對跟自己有利益相關的案子來做這樣的處理，我覺得比較能夠說服大眾，好不好？主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:40.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:43.477000+08:00","text":"謝謝張宏陸委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:43.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:48.634143+08:00","text":"接下來請李柏毅委員，他現在離開，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:48.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:32:51.791286+08:00","text":"好，我們就請洪申翰\n委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:32:52.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:33:05.805571+08:00","text":"在此宣告，洪申翰委員發言完畢換沈伯洋委員，然後換蘇巧慧委員，然後吳思瑤委員，\n然後張雅琳委員，然後翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:33:06.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:33:12.105571+08:00","text":"好，洪申翰委員發言完畢，我們再請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:33:12.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:33:46.405571+08:00","text":"主席，我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣，這份國民黨的文宣是 2019 年的國民黨文\n宣，大家看它上面還印著朱立倫主席，還有朱立倫主席的簽名，大家看一下內容，我唸一下給\n大家聽，內容寫說：民進黨提案，公投連署需附身分證影本，這是侵害隱私，提高連署難度，\n下面還寫「全民護公投，民進黨殺公投」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:33:46.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:34:28.419857+08:00","text":"國民黨的文宣裡面清楚得寫明，需要附身分證正反\n影本是在殺公投的事情，當年藍委強力杯葛公投法，2019 年的時候，甚至拿三秒膠封鎖門鎖，\n因為要強力阻擋公投法，所以我跟大家說，當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身分證影本的\n，後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議，還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議，所以將要\n附身分證影本的規定給拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:34:28.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:35:52.434143+08:00","text":"因此，最後在 2019 年 6 月修正的公投法版本裡面，就是不用附\n身分證正反影本的，因為那個時候不管是公民社會、公民團體或在野黨，包括國民黨，包括當\n時的時代力量，我相信也包括當時的黃國昌委員，黃國昌委員當時也是立法委員，在 2019 年的\n時候，都說要附身分證正反影本是會傷害人民的個資，提高連署的難度，這都是國民黨文宣的\n內容，我很少拿國民黨的文宣，我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣，我一個字一個字的唸，這就是\n國民黨文宣的內容，當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識，確實覺得身分證影本是有傷害\n372\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個資的疑慮，所以大家一起把它給拿掉了，我們民進黨團也同意了，當時的行政院也同意了，\n所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊「花」啦，當時大家就一起做成了這個共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:35:52.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:36:24.448429+08:00","text":"結果現在國\n民黨又拿著身分證正反面影本要來魚目混珠，民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身分證的發證\n日期，那不用把整份身分證的影像全部交出去啊，你只要在家裡把那個發證日期填上去就好，\n在上面不會有其他的個資、不會有整張身分證正反面影本的個資啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:36:24.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:36:35.891286+08:00","text":"現在國民黨要做的事情很\n簡單，他就是要讓民眾不敢連署，現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:36:36.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:36:39.619857+08:00","text":"很重視被詐騙的問題對\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:36:39.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:37:11.919857+08:00","text":"國民黨咬準了民眾這個心理，知道如果要連署就要把身分證正反面影本交出去，民眾就\n算很想要罷免那個政治人物也不敢交出去，在連署這一關就把整個罷免給封殺掉，還不用去調\n到時候同意票的門檻喔，在更前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉，這是國民黨現在要做的事情啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:37:12.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:37:36.791286+08:00","text":"大\n家看這份文宣，主席，我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這份文宣、有沒有發到你臉書上我不知\n道啦，這個是有朱立倫主席在上面的啊，欸，徐宇甄委員看一下，朱立倫主席在上面還有簽名\n啊，當年大家用這個說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-10-23T19:37:37.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:37:39.091286+08:00","text":"拿一個文宣出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:37:39.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:37:40.391286+08:00","text":"喔，No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:37:40.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:37:44.691286+08:00","text":"你們可以來證實那時候是不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:37:44.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:38:25.277000+08:00","text":"我現在講很簡單，其實大家標準一致啦，當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院也從善如流，\n認為這樣做確實有疑慮，所以我們把它拿掉了，我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識\n，已經不是一個議題了；但沒想到在經過了 5 年之後，國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦，我要說怕大罷\n免潮應該是檢討自己，不要又去激怒人民啦，不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:38:25.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:38:30.719857+08:00","text":"結果現在國民黨跟民\n眾黨幹的事情是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:38:31.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:38:44.162714+08:00","text":"是我要繼續激怒你、而且我要把你的權利給沒收，用我過去說會侵害隱\n私的做法把你的罷免給沒收，就這麼簡單！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:38:44.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:39:06.748429+08:00","text":"然後現在要魚目混珠，身分證的發證日期跟身分證\n影本就是完全不一樣的事情，剛才王鴻薇委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情，裡面個資的密度跟\n強度是完全不一樣的事情，但又要魚目混珠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:39:07.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:39:31.905571+08:00","text":"拜託不要搞這一套，你們在閹割人民的權利，這\n就是閹割人民權利，這是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛，「侵害隱私」這四個字大家不會看不懂，\n為什麼當年是侵害隱私，5 年後的現在要附身分證正反面影本就不是侵害隱私？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:39:32.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:39:33.205571+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:39:33.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:39:34.934143+08:00","text":"給個理\n由啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:39:35.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:39:50.377000+08:00","text":"當年民進黨後來也從善如流認為這有個資疑慮、有個資風險，所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛\n，2019 年 6 月最後的投票結果大家可以看一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申瀚","start":"2024-10-23T19:39:50.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:12.677000+08:00","text":"現在在野黨說這個總統副總統選舉罷免法，\n對不起，那個是 1995 年修的法律，那是法律，但是這麼簡單，我們最近在討論身分證正反面影\n本的問題是在 2019 年，為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:12.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:15.834143+08:00","text":"你可以結束讓我講了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:16.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:18.134143+08:00","text":"誒，我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:18.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:21.005571+08:00","text":"不是啊，他一直問我啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:21.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:23.019857+08:00","text":"我才講 8 分鐘誒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:23.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:25.891286+08:00","text":"他一直要我給個說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:26.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:29.619857+08:00","text":"我沒有要給個說法，我講完嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:29.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:33.062714+08:00","text":"這樣子，鴻薇委員，讓他講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:33.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:37.648429+08:00","text":"373\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:37.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:39.377000+08:00","text":"讓我講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:39.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:43.677000+08:00","text":"好，我講完，為什麼、我只問一個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:43.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:44.977000+08:00","text":"才 8 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:45.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:48.705571+08:00","text":"儘快講完啦，OK 齁，你講你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:49.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:40:53.005571+08:00","text":"他講 22 分鐘，為什麼要求我儘快講完？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:40:53.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:03.305571+08:00","text":"為什麼當年修公投法的時候，行政院的版本有需附身分證正反面影本的時候，國民黨","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:03.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:08.177000+08:00","text":"誒，總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:08.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:11.619857+08:00","text":"為什麼當年不用這個理由？","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:11.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:16.777000+08:00","text":"因為現在要被罷免\n的是國民黨的委員嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:17.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:18.791286+08:00","text":"就這麼簡單嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"不說","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:19.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:21.091286+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:21.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:23.677000+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:23.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:25.977000+08:00","text":"有什麼好遮掩的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:26.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:30.277000+08:00","text":"我們只要求一件事情啦，未來罷免……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:30.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:32.862714+08:00","text":"要罷免的是吳思瑤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:33.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:35.162714+08:00","text":"誒，為什麼要打斷？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:35.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:37.177000+08:00","text":"要罷免許智傑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:37.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:39.191286+08:00","text":"為什麼要打斷？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:39.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:41.777000+08:00","text":"我們只希望很簡單……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:42.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:43.505571+08:00","text":"讓我說好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:43.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:41:58.091286+08:00","text":"接下來罷免可能有藍有綠、可能也有白啦，但我只要求一件事情，不要閹割人民的權\n利、不要侵犯人民的隱私，就這麼簡單啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:41:58.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:02.677000+08:00","text":"為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:02.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:13.834143+08:00","text":"為什麼國民黨\n現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私、甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:14.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:22.705571+08:00","text":"個資的問題後面\n就是詐騙的問題，這樣子一個法案為什麼國民黨要強推？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:23.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:24.434143+08:00","text":"毫無道理嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:24.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:26.734143+08:00","text":"就是政治考慮嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:27.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:29.891286+08:00","text":"不要\n再講什麼民主了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:30.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:37.334143+08:00","text":"閹割人民權利的政黨、兩個在野政黨聯合起來，還講什麼民主？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:37.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:42.491286+08:00","text":"就這麼簡\n單嘛，就這一張文宣就講完了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:42.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:44.219857+08:00","text":"這是誰做的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:44.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:46.234143+08:00","text":"這民黨做的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:46.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:48.819857+08:00","text":"這是國民黨做的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:49.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:42:59.119857+08:00","text":"拜託國民\n黨不要跟人民對幹啦，怕被罷免的話就檢討自己，而不是檢討人民的權利啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:42:59.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:07.991286+08:00","text":"現在國民黨幹的\n事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利、閹割人民的權利啦！拜託！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:08.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:10.005571+08:00","text":"我就講到這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:10.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:15.734143+08:00","text":"對不起，我的時間不到王鴻薇委員的二分之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:16.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:18.605571+08:00","text":"那是哪位委員的助理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:18.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:20.048429+08:00","text":"那個請他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:20.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:21.777000+08:00","text":"哪一個助理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:22.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:23.791286+08:00","text":"這是我的助理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:24.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:28.377000+08:00","text":"對，我想大家直播可以調帶子就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:28.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:29.819857+08:00","text":"他是拍我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:30.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:31.119857+08:00","text":"他拍我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:31.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:39.991286+08:00","text":"不是，申翰，我們維持秩序啦，你就調帶，到時候調你的直播帶就好了，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:40.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:41.291286+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:41.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:47.305571+08:00","text":"我把它講完……\n374\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:47.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:53.891286+08:00","text":"助理儘量不要進到我們議場這邊來，站在後面就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:54.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:43:55.619857+08:00","text":"好，以上。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:43:55.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:02.205571+08:00","text":"主席，我們把這道理講在這個地方，要講道理大家來講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:02.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:05.648429+08:00","text":"不要拍我們來幫你衝流量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:05.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:15.948429+08:00","text":"要講道理大家來講，但請國民黨不要硬幹、不要跟人民為敵、不要閹割人民的權利。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:16.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:18.534143+08:00","text":"好謝謝洪申翰委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:18.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:23.977000+08:00","text":"翁曉玲委員第一次發言，我們請翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:24.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:31.705571+08:00","text":"兩套標準，綠能你不能，不能拍吳思瑤，只能拍王鴻薇跟許宇甄嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:32.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:33.434143+08:00","text":"那不一樣啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:33.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:36.019857+08:00","text":"好，我想要首先謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:36.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:48.891286+08:00","text":"重點是羅智強他拍人家還說謊，羅智強說謊，重點是羅智強說謊，他明明有拍卻說他\n是在自拍，是羅智強說謊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:49.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:51.762714+08:00","text":"重點是他說他在自拍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:52.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:54.919857+08:00","text":"不是不可以拍，是他說謊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:55.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:44:57.505571+08:00","text":"OK，輪我說話了吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:44:57.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:45:00.662714+08:00","text":"大家已經發表完意見了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:45:00.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:45:53.819857+08:00","text":"我要謝謝洪申翰委員，剛剛有提到\n2019 年的時候，行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法，我必須說你們真是有先見之明，知\n道之後的選舉環境極其惡劣，出現了很多罷免案的連署提議還有各方面提議人的連署都有造假\n的這些問題，這也是為什麼我們這次要提出這個選罷法，法律本來就是會與時俱進，要隨著時\n空環境的轉變來滾動式修正檢討，如果說當時 2019 年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案你們\n認為它是具有正當性，畢竟我們這個任何一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:45:54.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:45:55.834143+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:45:56.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:04.705571+08:00","text":"對，是，因為當時你們也許不覺得那時候的選舉環境、罷免的環境極其惡劣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:05.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:07.577000+08:00","text":"你幹嘛假設我們覺得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:07.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:09.877000+08:00","text":"我們就拿掉了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:10.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:18.177000+08:00","text":"可是現在改變了，現在確實出現許多連署人填的資料是假的，造假的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:18.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:19.905571+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:20.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:21.634143+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:21.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:23.362714+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:23.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:25.091286+08:00","text":"就是國民黨！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:25.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:29.391286+08:00","text":"每個黨都有，你們的更厲害、更嚴重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:29.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:35.977000+08:00","text":"如果你們不擔心的話，為什麼你們要反對現在\n的修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:36.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:37.991286+08:00","text":"沒有這個道理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:38.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:46:59.148429+08:00","text":"如果你們認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權，那麼所有的連署書\n出去都必須要是真實的，為什麼要擔心附上國民身分證正反面影本還有填上發證日期會有什麼\n侵害隱私？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:46:59.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:47:01.448429+08:00","text":"因為侵害隱私權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:47:01.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:47:33.748429+08:00","text":"現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了罷免連署書然後說以致於造成詐騙的猖狂，會有詐騙\n的問題都是民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團，還好意思在那裡講我們現在寫個什麼連署書\n375\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n然後填一些資料就有可能會洩漏個資、會造成詐騙。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:47:34.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:47:42.048429+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，那總統副總統選罷法為\n什麼你們不提出來修正咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:47:42.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:47:44.062714+08:00","text":"就來修啊！對呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:47:44.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:14.362714+08:00","text":"我要講的就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們要保護的是整個罷免案\n具有正當性，從一開始的提議到連署，每一關每一個環節都是符合真實性的，我們不容許有任\n何造假的連署書，更何況填上連署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:14.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:26.377000+08:00","text":"否則怎麼會知道到底寫上去\n的身分證字號是真是假、出生年月日是不是正確、戶籍地址是不是正確？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:26.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:48.391286+08:00","text":"所以附上國民身分證\n的正反面影印本不是正好可以讓相關的機關便於佐證，同時也可以讓募集連署的單位更好可以\n去辨別哪一個是真假，這個是有意義的修法，不是沒有意義的修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:48.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:54.977000+08:00","text":"民進黨常常都是昨是今非\n，以前你們所提出來的法案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:55.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:56.705571+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:57.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:58.434143+08:00","text":"那是你們吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:48:58.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:48:59.877000+08:00","text":"至少我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:00.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:49:04.177000+08:00","text":"你都想笑了，翁曉玲自己都想笑了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:04.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:49:12.477000+08:00","text":"你們就是昨是今非，以前你們的提案就可以，現在我們的提案就不行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:12.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:49:15.062714+08:00","text":"你自己都要笑出來","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:15.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:49:17.077000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要笑？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:17.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:49:46.805571+08:00","text":"因為我覺得很合理啊，因為時空環境改變，我們不知道民進黨政府執\n政之後整個的選舉罷免環境越來越糟糕啊，越來越多的弊端出現，然後中選會也不查清楚，都\n是個案的選擇判斷，所以當然要修法修得清清楚楚，保護個資難道不是連署單位的責任嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:49:47.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:07.962714+08:00","text":"他\n今天募集到連署人的身分證影本當然要保護好，如果大家有疑慮不敢去寫，那就代表也質疑這\n個連署單位本身是有問題的，所以就整個法的邏輯、法理來講是絕對站得住腳的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:08.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:18.262714+08:00","text":"所以我說我\n很謝謝洪委員，剛剛你提出了 2019 年當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:18.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:19.991286+08:00","text":"後來拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:20.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:21.719857+08:00","text":"為什麼拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:22.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:26.591286+08:00","text":"因為大家覺得有這樣的疑慮，就拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:26.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:43.462714+08:00","text":"是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛，就這麼簡單啊，你們還是考慮到你們自己\n的問題啊，如果你們認為是正確的，為什麼當時不堅持咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:43.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:48.334143+08:00","text":"這是很有趣的，為什麼你當時不堅\n持咧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:48.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:50:51.777000+08:00","text":"沒有水準的委員太多了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:50:52.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:12.077000+08:00","text":"我們今天是就事論事，今天既然是朝野協商，我們就好好的\n把這個條文看看哪個地方有問題，我們來修嘛，如果談不出個結果來，那我們就進入到下一個\n階段啊，不是嗎？來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:12.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:14.091286+08:00","text":"我就是比你大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:14.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:15.391286+08:00","text":"又來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:15.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:17.977000+08:00","text":"重點就是這一句啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:18.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:19.277000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:19.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:23.291286+08:00","text":"不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:23.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:25.877000+08:00","text":"又不討論了，又來了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:26.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:48.748429+08:00","text":"來、來、來，各位委員，現在我宣告一件事，因為麥玉珍委員現在已經離席，也就是民眾黨\n的代表已經離席了，所以實際上我們現在的協商可能明顯不會達成共識……\n376\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:49.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:53.334143+08:00","text":"他離席是他自己的權利他不要了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:53.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:51:59.062714+08:00","text":"但是沒關係，我跟你講，現在我們還是繼續討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:51:59.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:04.791286+08:00","text":"對啊，我們可以繼續討論，但是討倫沒有結果啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:05.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:13.662714+08:00","text":"對啊，我們還是可以一直討論、一直討論，奉陪啊，看是今天要討論到幾點啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:13.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:21.962714+08:00","text":"我們討論的就是各黨意見的表達，所以我歡迎各位表達意見，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:22.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:26.262714+08:00","text":"可是大家要充分的把意見表達完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:26.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:28.277000+08:00","text":"主席，會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:28.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:35.719857+08:00","text":"所以因為民眾黨麥玉珍委員不在現場，所以我們今天沒辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:36.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:40.019857+08:00","text":"哪裡規定不在場就不能繼續協商？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:40.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:43.462714+08:00","text":"主席，我都還沒有發言，主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:43.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:51.191286+08:00","text":"哪一個議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場就不能再協商？……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:51.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:52:57.491286+08:00","text":"我先這樣講而已，但是我還是希望……所以我說請大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:52:57.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:02.362714+08:00","text":"這就是國會擴權法案，一模模一樣樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:02.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:08.948429+08:00","text":"黃國昌走人就把協商打包、黃國昌走人就把協商打包……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:09.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:10.677000+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:10.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:12.405571+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:12.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:20.419857+08:00","text":"如果這樣下去就真的要散會了，所以我希望還是聽聽大家的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:20.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:22.434143+08:00","text":"是我在詢問啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:22.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:31.591286+08:00","text":"我們既然在協商了，這是因為他個人自己要離開我們，我們也沒辦法限制他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:31.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:33.319857+08:00","text":"是我在詢問！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:33.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:35.334143+08:00","text":"你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:35.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:38.205571+08:00","text":"吳思瑤，你下甚麼定論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:38.505571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:40.791286+08:00","text":"你有點禮貌好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:41.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:42.805571+08:00","text":"我不能詢\n問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:43.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:45.962714+08:00","text":"現在不是主席在講話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:46.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:49.405571+08:00","text":"我在詢問，他為什麼要插話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:49.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:51.419857+08:00","text":"我在詢問主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:51.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:54.862714+08:00","text":"現在換你，我現在沒講話啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:55.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:53:58.019857+08:00","text":"是你剛剛在插話好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:53:58.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:00.319857+08:00","text":"你為什麼要插話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:00.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:02.905571+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:03.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:05.491286+08:00","text":"我在詢問不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:05.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:08.648429+08:00","text":"這就是民進黨的民主嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:08.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:18.662714+08:00","text":"所以現在我們的討論是各黨意見的表達，各位委員你們充分表達意見，我沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:18.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:20.962714+08:00","text":"別人不能詢問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:21.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:24.119857+08:00","text":"吳思瑤真的超沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:24.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:25.848429+08:00","text":"甚麼叫民主？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:26.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:28.148429+08:00","text":"這就是沒有民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:28.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:30.734143+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:31.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:33.319857+08:00","text":"我聽不到主席講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:33.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:37.334143+08:00","text":"OK，我再重申，大家聽清楚沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:37.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:49.348429+08:00","text":"因為有民眾黨的委員他已經……因為我們協商一定要三\n377\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個黨都在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:49.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:51.077000+08:00","text":"沒有這個事……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:51.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:54:55.091286+08:00","text":"有這個事啦，你不要再跟我爭了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:54:55.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:13.962714+08:00","text":"所以我說不會討論出協商的結果，沒有人簽字嘛，所以我\n現在是告訴各位，我繼續讓各位發言，我們現在的發言就是各位委員你們自己意見的表達，我\n充分尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:14.262714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:16.548429+08:00","text":"麥玉珍會不會回來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:16.848429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:29.134143+08:00","text":"所以我不會那麼早宣告散會，我們還是等到……就是看大家待會兒……我們等一段時間，我\n待會兒聯絡他，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:29.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:31.719857+08:00","text":"他跟我說他有行程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:32.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:35.448429+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們待會再跟他確認。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:35.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:38.605571+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:38.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:42.048429+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:42.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:51.777000+08:00","text":"拜託主席，下次跟民眾黨的代表說一下，什麼工作大家都很重要，希望聽一下結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:52.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:54.934143+08:00","text":"你跟他拜託一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:55.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:55:57.519857+08:00","text":"因為大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:55:57.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:00.677000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以會議詢問嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:00.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:02.977000+08:00","text":"我會議詢問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:03.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:38.419857+08:00","text":"因為您剛才的裁示我有一點不理解，您\n的裁示是說不管我們講到……我們還有很多意見要表達，但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經\n離席了，所以你預判今天協商沒有結論，你已經預設了這個前提，所以現在您的意思是民眾黨\n跟你們……民眾黨是預謀好，他走了就讓今天沒有結論，你是說民眾黨預謀好了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:38.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:45.291286+08:00","text":"各位委員，我要很實事的告訴大家，因為我看到他離開了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:45.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:52.162714+08:00","text":"民眾黨預謀好了，只要他離開，今天就沒有結論，是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:52.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:57.891286+08:00","text":"黨團協商就是這樣，我們沒有辦法達成結論啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:56:58.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:56:59.905571+08:00","text":"這樣要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:00.205571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:01.348429+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:01.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:06.791286+08:00","text":"那我們再排協商，主席，我們再排協商可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:07.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:08.805571+08:00","text":"我們再排協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:09.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:11.391286+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣好離譜！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:11.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:17.691286+08:00","text":"明天我們再……那好了，就這樣我們就宣告，我來做宣告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:17.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:19.991286+08:00","text":"主席玩弄程序啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:20.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:24.005571+08:00","text":"怎麼某一黨離開就不能再討論！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:24.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:27.734143+08:00","text":"各位，你不要再表達意見了齁？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:28.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:30.319857+08:00","text":"還要不要表達意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:30.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:34.048429+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:34.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:38.919857+08:00","text":"坐在這裡不表達意見是坐在這裡幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:39.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:43.219857+08:00","text":"所以我請沈伯洋委員表達意見啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:43.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:52.377000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這樣，那他走了，然後我們在這邊……\n378\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:52.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:57:58.105571+08:00","text":"表達協商的意見，也就是對這個法案的意見啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T19:57:58.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:58:01.262714+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T19:58:01.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:58:23.848429+08:00","text":"因為民眾黨先離開了，但是國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識，這也是很重要的\n事情，如果今天只是在程序上因為他不在，但如果我們兩黨能夠達成共識的話，這也是一個很\n重要的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T19:58:24.148429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:58:49.577000+08:00","text":"或許我們能夠延續下去的話，那麼明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急\n著開，因為這表示我們有延續性，可能麥委員回來之後，過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還\n可以繼續協商，我的建議是這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T19:58:49.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:59:08.734143+08:00","text":"所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去……剛剛其實有滿多共識，第一個共識應該就是我\n感覺王委員跟翁委員應該都滿想加入民進黨的，一直在看我們的法案，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T19:59:09.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T19:59:14.462714+08:00","text":"我覺得他很支\n持以前我們的一些想法，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T19:59:14.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:00:12.762714+08:00","text":"但是我必須要講幾個點，第一個就是當然很感謝主席讓我們\n有協商的機會，但我還是必須要講，我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好，第一個就\n是在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講提高罷免門檻這件事情，但是其實顯然\n剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發，大部分都是在講有死人連署啦、有這個作假什麼等\n等，其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的問題，就是大家可以看到以往有那麼多造假的連署，這\n個大部分……不是大部分，都是國民黨發動的，那個比例很高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:00:13.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:00:15.634143+08:00","text":"但我覺得重點是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:00:15.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:00:29.648429+08:00","text":"重點是\n它被發現了，譬如說發動罷免陳致中有 46%不合格、發動罷免高閔琳有 49%不合格，這個數據\n在這邊的意思是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:00:29.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:00:44.805571+08:00","text":"就是我們發現它不合格，如果我們發現得了它不合格的話，那為什麼用\n這個當做理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:00:45.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:03.391286+08:00","text":"除非我們覺得他們發現得太慢了，他們\n發現的程序通常要好幾天，我們現在想要縮短公務人員的作業時間，所以我們要修改一些規定\n，這樣聽起來才合理嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:03.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:23.119857+08:00","text":"很多人說我們要弄這個影本，可能是為了怕說他們有偽造，就是冒名\n，但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪，所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法，其實跟這件事情沒有\n關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:23.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:37.419857+08:00","text":"這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的，跟你要不要附發證日期，要不要附影本，沒有什\n麼關係，它的因果根本就不存在嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:37.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:43.148429+08:00","text":"既然不存在的話，為什麼要用這個理由來修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:43.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:56.305571+08:00","text":"所以就回到下一個層次，就是當你今天要附身分證影本的時候，既然這一個不是理由，那你\n真正的理由是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:56.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:01:58.891286+08:00","text":"就是讓罷免變難嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:01:59.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:02:20.619857+08:00","text":"讓罷免變難這件事情，我們可以來看一下，因為剛剛\n麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場，因為今天大家都一直在講歷史，所以我們還是講一下，我們可以\n從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:02:20.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:02:57.491286+08:00","text":"但是我們可以看到 2013 年的黃國昌委員曾經說：「有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可\n怕的事情，所以在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜，每一個提議人跟連署人，要求你把身分證\n正反面影本交出來……你會擔心，那擔心的效果是什麼」，所以，這個很明顯我們可以看到，\n這個 2013 年的黃國昌委員，現在可能在家裡的地下室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:02:57.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:03:00.077000+08:00","text":"而且這是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:03:00.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:03:12.948429+08:00","text":"這是在做罷免吳育\n昇的那個時候，這個罷免當時還是我跟他一起弄的，所以我對他這一個論述非常的熟悉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:03:13.248429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:03:51.534143+08:00","text":"379\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n換言之，此案從頭到尾其實跟什麼死人連署，或是連署作假一點關係都沒有，這部分本來在\n法律上就可以直接規範，在程序上也可以被發現，所以最重要的是，當你把這個東西加進去，\n不管你今天是要附發證日期，還是要附身分證影本，你就是實質在讓門檻增加，你就是實質讓\n罷免變得不容易。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:03:51.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:04:05.834143+08:00","text":"罷免作為一個政治性的權利，這是一個動態的過程，我們臺灣人民已經熟悉了民主，其實也\n慢慢地在熟悉罷免這件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:04:06.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:04:16.419857+08:00","text":"如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去，第一個，這個會對政\n治權利的行使造成傷害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:04:16.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:05:17.291286+08:00","text":"第二個，就像剛剛洪委員提到的，以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗，現在詐欺\n很猖獗，這一些東西拿出來之後，很有可能會被詐欺集團拿去利用，更不要講如果大家對於所\n謂的個資外洩可能有研究的話，其實照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案，你利用發證日期來做\n審核，這件事情聽起來是合理的，但是通常來講，如果你今天要取得一個人的個資，假設我今\n天有他的條碼，通常我需要再一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊，那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換\n照日期，所以其實發證跟換照日期，在資安上面比大家想像得重要非常非常多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:05:17.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:05:31.877000+08:00","text":"而這個也不是\n以前就這樣，而是這兩、三年才會變得那麼重要，這是因為跟我們內部的資安機制有關係，這\n部分我就不多說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:05:32.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:05:59.891286+08:00","text":"所以我還是覺得，我們今天既然想要協商，想要聚焦，我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情\n就是，其實這一個法案，它就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案，它的目的就是這樣，它其實非\n常的明確，因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:06:00.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:06:07.619857+08:00","text":"既然這樣的話，我們就是要討論，我\n們要不要限制人民的罷免權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:06:07.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:06:15.634143+08:00","text":"如果你不要限制人民的罷免權，那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:06:15.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:06:23.077000+08:00","text":"接下來我還要講一下就是，我覺得法案寫得有點粗糙，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:06:23.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:06:48.805571+08:00","text":"因為發證日期在一個版本有\n，一個版本沒有，但我們可以看到，我剛才稍微翻了一下，譬如說在 162 頁，這一個應該是許\n委員的版本，它在右邊這個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期，但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期，不\n知道為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:06:49.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:00.248429+08:00","text":"那是不是傅崐萁的版本複製過來，但我記得你的版本是比較早的，所以就是有些\n文字上的謬誤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:00.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:14.834143+08:00","text":"然後再來就是最後一個第九十八條之二「利用他人個人資料，未經同意偽造、假冒提議、連\n署者」，這個條文問題非常多，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:15.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:19.134143+08:00","text":"第一個，我們的法律本來就有規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:19.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:35.434143+08:00","text":"第二個，它的第\n二行叫做「未經同意偽造」，我在這邊要稍微科普一下，偽造的定義就叫做未經同意，所以偽\n造就是偽造，不需要「未經同意偽造」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:35.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:45.162714+08:00","text":"然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署，這其實是三種不\n同的行為，是不是要等量以觀？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:45.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:49.462714+08:00","text":"這個我看司法院其實已經有提到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:49.762714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:07:55.762714+08:00","text":"所以其實有太多，太多的事\n情，應該要在委員會討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:07:56.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:08:16.919857+08:00","text":"當然我猜可能等一下又要講說，那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開什麼等等之類的，我要告訴大\n家，當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候，就算今天討論了，我們的討論會直接被停止。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:08:17.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:08:39.505571+08:00","text":"這是\n昨天才發生的事情，我一句話都沒有講到就直接被停止討論，其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太\n多次這樣的事情，所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候，趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:08:39.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:09:01.519857+08:00","text":"最後，我還是要 echo 宏陸委員講的，我覺得非常重要的一點就是，這個是涉己事項，既然這\n380\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個案子會影響到現在的立法委員，我覺得第一個，要三思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:09:01.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:09:19.248429+08:00","text":"第二個，我覺得我們更應該要去注\n意的，就跟釋字第 499 號講的類似，就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟立法委員的報酬、待遇等等之\n類的，應該要從次屆起實施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:09:19.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:09:41.834143+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話，人民的信\n賴利益也會被破壞，那麼就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用，但這個東西也沒有在我們現\n在討論的這個法案的內容裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:09:42.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:00.705571+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講的就是，第一個，它的理由是不夠充分的；第二個，它的文字上也有很多疑\n慮，那更不要講說刑責的部分定的不明確；再加上又有自我迴避的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:01.005571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:09.005571+08:00","text":"我認為至少我們在這\n邊必須要審慎以對，這個協商應該要拉長一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:09.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:11.877000+08:00","text":"我簡單講到這邊，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:12.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:14.177000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:14.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:24.762714+08:00","text":"林倩綺委員第一輪發言，我讓你先講一下，下一位就請蘇巧慧委員，然後\n再來張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:25.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:27.348429+08:00","text":"主席、各位立院同仁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:27.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:10:59.077000+08:00","text":"我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商，大家都因為是尊重民主政\n治當中，我們對於人民行使各項權利，包括我們今天在這邊討論的，有關於罷免權這樣的一個\n民主性，我們都相信它是神聖的，所以我們在這邊討論，應該就是為了讓這樣一個權利的行使\n更為嚴謹、更為神聖。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:10:59.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:11:31.662714+08:00","text":"所以，在選罷法當中是我們可以在這樣一個概念上來做推動的，所以剛\n才大家有一些討論，那當然也有一些從歷史緣由來談論到我們今天所處的現狀，那我們是不是\n可以就現在我們已經經歷過那麼多個階段所碰到的問題跟狀況，來做一個實質的、真正比較針\n對事情的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:11:31.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:11:50.819857+08:00","text":"所以，國民黨這邊所提出來的法案，也是因為先前我們看到一些現象，所以我們希望整體來\n講更嚴謹，國民黨的版本是希望我們在罷免權利的行使上能更為細緻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:11:51.119857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:12:39.691286+08:00","text":"如果民進黨認為在這個\n行使權利的過程當中，會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響，那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式\n，或許在相關的法規裡面提出來，你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮，或有什麼實際可以解決這個\n部分的一個考量，那我想這個部分或許在針對我們一直僵持不下的身分證，或者是身分證相關\n的一些狀況，能夠找出一些解方，那我想這樣應該是對我們在協商或是對人民在行使權利上是\n比較正面的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-23T20:12:39.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:12:43.991286+08:00","text":"以上這是我在第一輪的發言，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:12:44.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:12:46.291286+08:00","text":"謝謝林倩綺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:12:46.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:12:49.448429+08:00","text":"我們現在請蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:12:49.748429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:12:50.891286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:12:51.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:13:22.048429+08:00","text":"今天變成是歷史課，大家都要來回憶我們之前的印象，我覺得如果我們要\n開始回憶的話，其實不能夠只有從 7 月 4 號那一天委員會當天混亂的現場開始回憶起，大家應\n該要更往前，從 5 月份的時候國民黨提出的擴權法案，造成了這麼多的社會反彈，在這樣的狀\n況，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:13:22.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:13:34.634143+08:00","text":"甚至是從今年的 2 月換屆之後，人數的多寡交替之後，立法院呈現一個什麼樣的\n狀況，大家開始來回憶起嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:13:34.934143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:14:33.505571+08:00","text":"所以從 5 月的時候發現，國民黨提的法案，就算社會的大多數聲\n音，民進黨的委員跟他說，我們有意見，我們覺得這個有問題，社會上甚至是跟他們講說，這\n個過去你們提的版本，民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本，大家都不同意，不是多數，所以\n沒有過，他還是像現在今天這樣說，沒有啊，你們民進黨就是有提出啊，我們一直跟他講說，\n可是後來沒有成啊，就沒有過啊，所以表示我們也尊重當時朝野討論的結果，最後沒有過，他\n就不管，他就是一直 repeat，重複 repeat，這個臺詞是一模一樣到現在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:14:33.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:14:58.662714+08:00","text":"好了，結果 5 月的時候\n381\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，你看到二十幾號的時候，哎呀，坐在我對面的沈伯洋委員，真的，你當時辛苦了，從臺上這\n樣跌下來，真的是，真的是幸好，看看剛剛講話的時候，都還是邏輯清楚啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:14:58.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:08.677000+08:00","text":"當時到底是被誰\n推下來、丟下來這樣的狀況，你看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:08.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:14.691286+08:00","text":"到現在人家都還是說你是\n自找的，這個實在是喔……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:14.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:15.991286+08:00","text":"又扯了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:16.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:17.291286+08:00","text":"再扯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:17.591286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:23.591286+08:00","text":"實在是覺得，真的你看，所以我們真的是要回憶一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:23.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:47.605571+08:00","text":"所以，當時的立法院氣氛就是\n，如果國民黨想要的法案就是要按照國會的人數多數強行通過，逕付二讀、快速通過、過水式\n的通過，那當然，後面他如果再提出任何的法案，我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:47.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:15:53.334143+08:00","text":"好，那我們來看 7 月 4 號，7 月 4 號是一個什麼樣的氛圍？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:15:53.634143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:16:06.491286+08:00","text":"就是在 6 月 29 號的時候，拆樑山\n海行動正式宣布已經超過第二階段的連署數了，所以罷樑又進入一個新的階段。哇！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:16:06.791286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:16:25.362714+08:00","text":"經過了被\n這麼多人，10 萬人上街抗議的國民黨，再加上看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來，\n連兩階段的連署都已經過了，這時候的國民黨會想要什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:16:25.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:16:37.377000+08:00","text":"當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發\n生嘛，所以當然是要加嚴罷免的制度，怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:16:37.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:16:45.391286+08:00","text":"就是把大家不想拿出來的身\n分證影本，把它加到條件裡面最好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:16:45.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:16:56.262714+08:00","text":"所以你看看他們的版本，就是這樣嘛，所以 7 月 4 號當\n然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:16:56.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:17:10.277000+08:00","text":"好了，以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了，沒有想到竟\n然是逕付二讀，就直接跳到由國民黨召開協商，就是今天的會議啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:17:10.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:17:28.577000+08:00","text":"好，那我們把這個歷史還\n原了，大家記憶還原，不要只採取片段式的記憶，要回憶就通通想起來，要回憶就大家從頭到\n尾來說，不要只有講這種片段式的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:17:28.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:17:43.162714+08:00","text":"好，那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了，那為什麼現在新的、今天提出來的兩個版本裡面，\n只有國民身分證影本和發證日期？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:17:43.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:17:53.177000+08:00","text":"大家現在有沒有在實務上看到，我們為了要防止詐騙的狀況\n會加上什麼樣的條件？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:17:53.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:18:18.619857+08:00","text":"其實有啊，蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了；你要去辦信用卡的時\n候，也有加上身分證的換證日期了，這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的、增加信用的條\n件嘛，所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:18:18.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:18:34.062714+08:00","text":"因為他不用把身分證留在別人那裡，他\n只要在填寫的時候多填一項資料就好了，跟直接附上身分證影本整個圖件完全不一樣嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:18:34.362714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:18:51.505571+08:00","text":"所以\n完全不一樣的狀況下，吳秉叡跟蔡易餘當時的版本是加換證日期，是符合現在的狀況的，跟國\n民黨現在提出來的附身分證影本是不一樣的嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:18:51.805571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:19.805571+08:00","text":"所以主席，我在這裡跟你講道理，這才是剛剛\n人家講說立法院是好好講道理的地方，我現在就跟你講道理啊，講道理是社會現行的狀況加換\n證日期跟加身分證影本是完全不同的狀況，在實務的層次上面，也完全已經得到不同的共識性\n了嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:20.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:27.248429+08:00","text":"好，那如果今天要認真討論條文，那我們到底要改到什麼程度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:27.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:29.262714+08:00","text":"我們可以討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:29.562714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:46.991286+08:00","text":"主席，你今\n天是做一個協調會的主席，現在民眾黨走啦，他說他有行程，走了；國民黨，欸，噹噹，那我\n不曉得今天的協商，等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:47.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:50.719857+08:00","text":"主席，我們的國會影像都在錄……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:51.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:55.877000+08:00","text":"國會影像都在錄嘛，後面電視臺也在錄嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:56.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:19:59.605571+08:00","text":"後面還有……張雅琳委員，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:19:59.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:04.191286+08:00","text":"382\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:04.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:08.777000+08:00","text":"那你現在講的結論，你現在講的結論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:09.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:15.648429+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，我是在描述我等一下對你的結論的期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:15.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:22.805571+08:00","text":"是，會、會、會，我待會會宣告，但是我們還是讓委員講一下，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:23.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:30.248429+08:00","text":"我現在是說，你的結論大家萬眾期待是一個公平合理的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:30.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:31.691286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:31.991286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:42.562714+08:00","text":"我想我們今天討論的選罷法草案，其實是關乎臺灣的民主制度，這是一個\n非常嚴肅的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:42.862714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:20:58.862714+08:00","text":"因為我想，你問任何一個人，要參與連署的時候，必須把你的身分證拿出來\n，這個難度絕對是非常非常高的，而且這絕對會造成詐騙的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:20:59.162714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:21:14.591286+08:00","text":"如果你現在把「詐騙」還有\n「身分證」輸入在 Google 裡面，你就會看到其實已經有 2 萬 1,000 個刑事判決，所以這絕對是\n非常嚴重的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:21:14.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:21:34.319857+08:00","text":"如果我們貿然的把這一個身分證加上去的時候，不但會威嚇我們的民眾，沒\n有辦法來行使他的罷免權，也會讓我們的整個法制上面，可能會造成未來詐騙橫行的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:21:34.619857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:21:50.048429+08:00","text":"再來，第二個部分就是，剛剛伯洋委員其實也有說了，最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨，但\n是國民黨提出這個，我也覺得是蠻可笑的啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:21:50.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:22:08.919857+08:00","text":"而且我們如果要討論這麼嚴肅的問題，其實我們\n應該要開公聽會諮詢專家學者的意見，好好的來請益，如何保障民眾的罷免權的同時，也可以\n避免造假的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-10-23T20:22:09.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:22:47.219857+08:00","text":"可是我們這一次，並沒有經過任何的公聽會，來討論有關身分證的問題，我\n自己認為，其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議，例如我們可能可以用電子連署\n，或者是戶政機關協助來受理等等，都是我們可以討論的重點，而不是匆匆的，沒有在充分討\n論的狀況之下就通過選罷法，我覺得這是對民主最大的傷害。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:22:47.519857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:22:49.519857+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:22:49.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:22:52.105571+08:00","text":"再來請王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:22:52.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:22:58.405571+08:00","text":"主席，我等了很久才等到，感謝主席給我們這個機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:22:58.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:23:20.419857+08:00","text":"我覺得今天要協商選罷法，大\n家要互相尊重，看看問題出在哪裡，要怎麼去改進，而不是我們民進黨說出來就不行，國民黨\n說出來就可以，這樣不好，這樣不是叫做協商，大家尊重彼此的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:23:20.719857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:23:30.434143+08:00","text":"我們國家要進步就是之\n前覺得好的要怎麼保存下來，不好的我們要怎麼去改進嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:23:30.734143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:23:44.734143+08:00","text":"像現在，大家的爭議點就是，一方主張要附身分證影印本，另外一方認為身分證影印本的個\n資，等於剝奪百姓罷免的權利。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:23:45.034143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:23:59.891286+08:00","text":"因為有很多人想要罷免，不過因為要影印身分證，他會考慮，\n所以這樣是去剝奪百姓想要做的事情，說實在的我們這樣也不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:00.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:24:15.048429+08:00","text":"我看到剛剛有一黨的委員\n先跑了，後來另外一黨的委員也跑光，我覺得大家要互相尊重，因為協商的過程，1 個小時真的\n講不完啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:15.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:24:18.777000+08:00","text":"重要的是有人一個人講 30 分鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:19.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:24:37.077000+08:00","text":"我也感謝主席，主席給我們大家表達的機會，因為我們選罷法的門檻，像剛剛說的，\n我們不能自肥我們自己，要在下一任才適用，也沒有人這種修法方式的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:37.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:24:51.662714+08:00","text":"我覺得說，我們今\n天應該要來問主席，今天的結論，你剛才說的是不有結論，沒有結論的話，我要請教主席，我\n們會再開協商嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:51.962714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:24:55.677000+08:00","text":"還是明天院長來主持就結束了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:24:55.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:01.405571+08:00","text":"這是最重要的，這一點我要請教我們主席。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:01.705571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:05.991286+08:00","text":"383\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:06.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:09.148429+08:00","text":"好，我們謝謝王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:09.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:20.305571+08:00","text":"思瑤幹事長跟易餘，培瑜還沒講啦，因為培瑜還沒講，我們就請\n培瑜講，培瑜講完我再來做宣告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:20.605571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:21.748429+08:00","text":"來，請培瑜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:22.048429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:23.191286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:23.491286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:30.919857+08:00","text":"既然要上歷史課，我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點，也幫主席複習。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:31.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:44.648429+08:00","text":"大家都\n說身分證交出來有資安的問題，剛剛美惠委員也說了，交出身分證，大家會害怕，我要提醒大\n家，為什麼會害怕？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:44.948429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:25:52.091286+08:00","text":"小的時候，我爸爸說「不要碰政治，因為會被國民黨點名做記號」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:25:52.391286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:26:18.391286+08:00","text":"以前\n那個時代，大家對於國民黨的威權統治，如果都還記得，所以我要提醒大家，現在所有人在擔\n心的是，當我交出身分證，就是剛剛洪申翰委員說的，當我就是被認證，我是要反對某一個政\n黨的人，請問，民主機制如何運轉下去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:26:18.691286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:26:58.119857+08:00","text":"現在國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了，但是他們就算在這裡，我也不認為他們願意\n承認，威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒，還在非常多臺灣人民的心中，所以他們今天做出這\n個非常荒謬的條文，我要說的是，不是只有條文本身有資安的問題，而是它的背後如何想像臺\n灣人民把自己的身分證交出去，他們如何對臺灣人民交代。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:26:58.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:27:21.277000+08:00","text":"再來，大家最近都有看到 NHK 紀錄\n片在講個資被濫用的問題，還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題，請問國民黨或是民眾\n黨的委員，你們自己要不要在這個議題上，對臺灣人民有所交代？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:27:21.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:27:56.719857+08:00","text":"如果，如同剛剛思瑤委員有提醒主席，也請主席等一下要做出裁示，如果今天的發言跟協商\n只是一個過水，根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質協商，那我要再次提醒主席，你\n身為今天協商的主席，你必須要去呼應、回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮，不要讓我們陪\n你坐在這邊聊天講故事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-10-23T20:27:57.019857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:28:21.591286+08:00","text":"我們很願意主張我們的論述，我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨跟民眾\n黨的委員相關的疑慮，即使他們完全不考慮，但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席，或是\n陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:28:21.891286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:28:23.891286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:28:24.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:28:29.048429+08:00","text":"我想今天很感謝大家，大家都撥空來參與。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:28:29.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:28:38.777000+08:00","text":"思瑤，我先講完，因為大家\n一直在問我，現在要不要做結論，巧慧在那邊也一直在笑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:28:39.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:29:15.362714+08:00","text":"我跟你說，這樣啦，我跟各位講，\n我現在一定要依立法院職權行使法來做出我的裁示，因為我們黨團協商，今天不是逐條討論，\n現在是黨團協商，一定要三個黨達成共識才能做成結論，現在民眾黨先離開了，我也不能去制\n止他，說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商，國民黨黨團代表也離開了，所以我們很難達成共\n識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:29:15.662714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:29:38.519857+08:00","text":"依照立法院職權行使法第七十一條，沒有辦法達成共識，其實我剛才就可以宣布散會了，\n但是我已經承諾大家，我要聽大家把意見表達完畢，所以大家都已經有把自己的意見表達了，\n現在再說下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T20:29:38.819857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:29:42.248429+08:00","text":"他們剛剛一直點我的名字呢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:29:42.548429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:29:47.119857+08:00","text":"但是現在再說下去，就不會達成共識啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T20:29:47.419857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:29:49.991286+08:00","text":"對啊……然後他都說要我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:29:50.291286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:03.148429+08:00","text":"沒有啦，明天……我現在跟你講，我還是依照我的職責，我要作出以下宣告：有關本日之協\n商會議，本席擬具結論如下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:03.448429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:07.162714+08:00","text":"主席，你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:07.462714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:16.605571+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，不要，我已經打算說我只到那個……\n384\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:16.905571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:21.762714+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:22.062714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:26.348429+08:00","text":"歷次選罷法的協商有委員會的審查……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:26.648429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:29.791286+08:00","text":"還有兩次以上的朝野協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:30.091286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:33.805571+08:00","text":"因已無法有協商結果，本次會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:34.105571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:38.105571+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:38.405571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:47.834143+08:00","text":"本次會議各黨團代表均無法達成共識，由本黨團向院長請求進行黨團協商，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:48.134143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:30:52.134143+08:00","text":"思銘委員，不要葬送我對您的尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:30:52.434143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:01.005571+08:00","text":"今天就是過水，今天就是演戲，今天就是虛晃一\n招，林思銘，你是歷史的罪人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-23T20:31:01.305571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:03.019857+08:00","text":"今天就是過水……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T20:31:03.319857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:05.891286+08:00","text":"今天協商就是過水啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-23T20:31:06.191286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:09.619857+08:00","text":"你們就是要過水，然後禮拜五……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:31:09.919857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:11.919857+08:00","text":"我宣布現在散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T20:31:12.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T20:31:13.362714+08:00","text":"散會（18 時 13 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}