{"error":false,"id":["162017"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":162017,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162017","日期":"2025-05-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-15-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-28T10:15:36+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-28T10:21:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b2233c9956f55b8bd126c33bcaff1fd1a3426710e0a50eedaaf2dd0d3751eaad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:15:36 - 10:21:03","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算解凍案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.52159375,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.250343750000003,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.70596875,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.05534375,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.63721875,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.58221875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.510343750000004,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.88159375,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.53971875,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.923468750000005,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.58159375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.03721875,"end":43.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.65284375,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.188468750000006,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.930968750000005,"end":46.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.251593750000005,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.24721875,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.477843750000005,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.40159375,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.52721875,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.27784375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.50534375000001,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.06159375,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.71846875,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.27034375000001,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.15971875000001,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.57721875,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.82471875,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.87909375000001,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.23346875,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.37659375000001,"end":110.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.58721875,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.84784375000001,"end":119.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.64409375000001,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.55096875,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.76159375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.68096875,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.78221875,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.18284375000002,"end":139.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.82784375,"end":139.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.16534375,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.18221875,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.41659375,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.85534375,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.06159375000001,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.27221875,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.58346875,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.76471875000001,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":173.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.73784375000002,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.56471875,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.41659375,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.22659375,"end":189.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.17159375,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.96346875,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":193.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.32971875,"end":196.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.63346875000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.73034375,"end":215.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.20846875,"e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請秘書長跟主計處處長我想先請問一下我們主計處的呂處長我們在編預算的裡面有法定支出"},{"start":33.417,"end":54.104,"text":"是不是有法定支出這個名詞有有嘛那有法定預算嗎有法定預算都有嘛對不對所以剛剛大家一直在講什麼法定預算什麼什麼都不能動不能砍是這樣嗎"},{"start":58.43,"end":82.068,"text":"法律支出跟法定預算是不一樣的法定預算是我們整個預算在行政院送到立法院叫預算案預算案審查通過就是我們院通過以後總統公佈以後叫法定預算法律支出就是我們在預算的編列的時候有一些編列的項目是有法律明定的"},{"start":82.768,"end":109.943,"text":"那個叫法律義務支出比如說像人事費我們公務人員的那個人事費那所以法律義務支出呢我們行政組織總署也有一些定義但是呢就是說這個法律義務支出人事費法律上明定以外又編入預算所以是在規範它有一定的編制的標準跟編入預算是這個意思對啦所以我就請教啦應該有一個"},{"start":112.705,"end":128.948,"text":"你的法定預算既然是法定預算了是已經公佈了吧對不對是已經公佈了那叫法定預算啊早上有很多人在講法定預算不能砍啊他公佈了啊他還有機會砍嗎"},{"start":130.834,"end":150.328,"text":"法定預算就是措施性的法律就是總統公布的法律我的意思是法定預算就是這個預算案已經定案了嘛就是多少了嘛已經核定了嘛總統也公布了嘛在縣市可能縣市首長也都公布我今年要花多少嘛對不對這個是不是才叫做法定預算"},{"start":151.482,"end":178.692,"text":"法定預算這個名詞是法律名詞預算法上的法律名詞對啦對是總統公佈以後的叫法定預算總統公佈以後那個法律名詞就叫做法定預算是不是是嘛對不對那我們在審預算的時候我們在審預算的時候應該有一些叫做法定的支出吧法定的義務支出法定的義務支出法律義務支出對嘛這個兩個是不同的概念吧不同"},{"start":179.252,"end":193.027,"text":"不同嘛對啊所以我剛剛一直在想一直在聽我一直覺得每個人都這樣講讓我搞混了啊所以我要請教請教你啊所以我的觀念才是對的吧"},{"start":194.414,"end":218.279,"text":"那是委員 是的是啦齁所以在那講幾步講幾載有的很多人甚至還有說要怎麼樣說什麼法定預算不能砍或什麼的我一直覺得很奇怪啦就我的認知法定預算就已經公布了當然你要砍你也沒得砍了啊除了追加減可不可以請我們行政院主計總處他主管這邊有這個"},{"start":220.739,"end":237.171,"text":"不是啦就很清楚就是這樣了嘛對不對你除了追加減你才可能去動它了嘛不然你怎麼可能還會去動它我的意思就是說其實要來處理一個這個追加減或是我們今天要解凍"},{"start":238.211,"end":261.15,"text":"其實不用有那麼多理由啦要合理的預算我們就支持嘛啊不合理的當然要被凍結要被那個我覺得這個就是一個最基本的原則我覺得是這樣吧祕書長是不是這樣蛤沒有你說啦是啦齁啊所以啊其實原則就是在這裡而已啊對不對齁我認為啦"},{"start":265.12,"end":291.127,"text":"行政院今天我們來處理這個解凍案你們業務費什麼撐不下去的或什麼的你們要勇敢大聲的說出來啊你們如果不說誰知道啊對不對連剛剛大家在講那些都講的我跟你講全國人民齁沒有多少人聽得懂你們法定預算法定義務支出什麼什麼沒有什麼啦但你們現在就撐不下去了吧水電費繳不繳得出來"},{"start":295.367,"end":324.086,"text":"不是 我叫你要大聲講 你們還都不講過去一直準決啦 但是還是有他的時間性還是撐不久吧對啦 我覺得啦該說的就說啦 該爭取的就爭取嘛我們今天應該聚焦在這裡啦其他的也不用去說太多啦我覺得啦 等一下我們在那個時候你們就大聲講嘛 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":327.083,"end":327.104,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時15分）我先請龔秘書長還有主計處處長。"],["主席：好，請秘書長跟主計處處長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：召委好。"],["張委員宏陸：我想先請問一下主計處的呂處長，我們在編預算的裡面有法定支出，是不是有法定支出這個名詞？"],["呂處長秋香：有。"],["張委員宏陸：那有法定預算嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：有法定預算，有。"],["張委員宏陸：都有嘛？對不對？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以剛剛大家一直在講什麼法定預算，什麼、什麼都不能動、不能砍，是這樣嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：法律義務支出跟法定預算是不一樣的，法定預算是我們整個預算在行政院送到立法院叫預算案，預算案審查通過，總統公布以後叫法定預算；而法律義務支出是我們在預算編列的時候，有一些編列的項目是有法律明定的，那個叫法律義務支出，比如說像我們公務人員的人事費。對於法律義務支出，行政院主計總處也有一些定義，但是就法律義務支出，人事費除法律上明定以外，又編入預算，所以是在規範它有一定的編製標準跟編入預算，是這個意思。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！所以我就請教……"],["呂處長秋香：不敢當。"],["張委員宏陸：你的法定預算既然是法定預算了，是已經公布了嘛？對不對？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是已經公布了，那叫法定預算，早上有很多人在講法定預算不能砍，但它公布了啊！它還有機會砍嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：法定預算就是措施性的法律，就是總統公布的法定預算……"],["張委員宏陸：不，我的意思是，法定預算就是這個預算已經定案了嘛，就是多少了嘛，已經核定了嘛，總統也公布了嘛，在縣市可能縣市首長也都公布了今年要花多少嘛，對不對？這個是不是才叫做法定預算？是不是這樣講？"],["呂處長秋香：法定預算這個名字是法律名詞，預算法上的法律名詞。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！"],["呂處長秋香：是總統公布以後的，叫法定預算。"],["張委員宏陸：總統公布以後的那個法律名詞就叫做法定預算，是不是？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！對不對？那我們在審預算的時候，應該有一些叫做法定的支出吧？"],["呂處長秋香：法律義務支出。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛？這兩個是不同的概念吧？"],["呂處長秋香：不同。"],["張委員宏陸：不同嘛，所以我剛剛一直在想一直在聽，我一直覺得每個人都這樣講，讓我搞混了，所以我要請教你，我的觀念才是對的吧？"],["呂處長秋香：是的，委員。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛，所以在那邊講了老半天，講了整個早上，很多人甚至還說什麼法定預算不能砍或什麼，我一直覺得很奇怪，就我的認知，法定預算就已經公布了，當然你要砍也沒得砍了啊！除了追加減……"],["呂處長秋香：可不可以請行政院主計總處，因為它主管這邊，有專委。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！就很清楚是這樣了嘛，對不對？你除了追加減才可能去動它，不然你怎麼可能還能去動它？我的意思是，要來處理追加減或是我們今天要解凍，其實不用有那麼多理由啦！合理的預算我們就支持，不合理的要被凍結、要被那個，我覺得這就是一個最基本的原則，我覺得是這樣，秘書長，是不是這樣？你說啦！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是吧？所以原則就是在這裡而已，對不對？我認為行政院今天來我們這裡處理這個解凍案，你們業務費什麼撐不下去或什麼，你們要勇敢大聲說出來，你們如果不說，誰知道啊？對不對？剛剛大家在講那些都講的……我跟你講，全國人民沒有多少人聽得懂你們法定預算、法律義務支出什麼、什麼，沒有什麼啦！但你們現在就撐不下去了吧？水電費繳不繳得出來？"],["呂處長秋香：繳不出來。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啊！我叫你要大聲講，你們還都不講。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：過去一直撙節啦！但還是有它的時間性，還是撐不……"],["張委員宏陸：撐不久吧？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，撐不久。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我覺得啦！該說的就說啦！該爭取的就爭取嘛！我們今天應該聚焦在這裡，其他的也不用去說太多，我覺得等一下我們在那個時候你們就大聲講嘛，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","再來，我們請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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