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謝謝主席 本席有請龔秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":19.938,"end":39.991,"text":"前面有兩位委員有提到去年內政委員會的會議本席想要在這裡特別說明秘書長你覺得會議狀態不明或怎麼樣我想那一天是誰杯葛執政黨的委員杯葛整個的議事程序"},{"start":40.791,"end":59.195,"text":"然後搞不清楚的也是執政黨的行政院秘書長所以我們在這裡很遺憾執政黨又要背個會議然後又不來備詢但是今天本席的質詢內容沒有這個我只是在一開始我先針對這個來講首先今天我們想跟秘書長來就教"},{"start":66.218,"end":87.351,"text":"現在當然大家都對於我們這個一般性補助款2501億呢對各直轄市政府或縣市政府的這個補助款首先本席請教你這2501億在去年審查114年總預算的時候它有被立法院刪減嗎有沒有任何一個立委提議刪減這個 有沒有"},{"start":95.934,"end":113.508,"text":"並沒有沒有 對原因是什麼本席跟大家說因為我們行政院應該這應該是主計總署提出來的114年度中央政府總預算編列一法律義務支出明細表"},{"start":114.249,"end":133.958,"text":"所以呢 各位 這個2,501億 對地方政府的一般性補助款他是不能刪減的 立法院都不能刪減 行政院也不能任意刪減那什麼情況下可以刪減 這個有辦法 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沒關係我現在確定是誰決定的主計總署也是提議吧主計總署跟我們講不能刪結果跟行政院來提議要刪減"},{"start":338.243,"end":346.012,"text":"哇我們的政府可以這樣子違法亂紀違規沒有如果沒有那個636億的這個空白刪除的話就不會發生這樣的情況636億這一塊他本來過去也都有通案刪減"},{"start":355.262,"end":372.349,"text":"就是要行政院來立法院大家一起協調或是行政院你應該各部會刪減你不做你全部加諸在民眾然後呢影響我們人民的通案刪減是939億我們行政院也沒有發表所以現在是"},{"start":379.852,"end":404.72,"text":"主計總署跟行政院提案 那誰最後決策嘛誰最後拍板定案的嘛 卓院長嗎不敢講 卓院長所以主計總署 這個主計長很有問題對立法院不能刪的 行政院來刪而且違反自己訂出來的規定那所以現在這個一般性補助款"},{"start":408.002,"end":433.115,"text":"2501億呢就要轉嫁到地方影響了我們學童的交通老人家的生活我們托育的照顧我們長照的照顧公共的醫療消防建設文化活動等等等所以全部都加租到地方那本席最後要再詢問我們秘書長今年通過的總預算是不是歷史新高"},{"start":435.988,"end":460.299,"text":"歷史由始以來最高的嘛對結果通過的預算歷史新高再告訴我們至愛難行ok至愛難行的部分你當初的因為這個各部會他的這個溝通我們沒辦法管到那麼細但是我們希望未來很多東西你要加強溝通很多沒有溝通啊好那"},{"start":463.154,"end":465.477,"text":"接著最後本席要說我們這個"},{"start":469.98,"end":494.921,"text":"整個的通案刪減636億如果在中央各部會來分攤的話大概佔我們中央政府總預算2%左右就2%那就像一個大水庫你大水庫理論你這樣子分攤可是結果我們的行政院竟然就是轉嫁到地方轉嫁到地方結果造成地方20幾%的一個衝擊"},{"start":497.662,"end":519.858,"text":"所以我們不希望我們的政府治理 中央執政不要情緒失控 人有情緒失控所以會有錯誤的言行但是不要因為這個我們合理的刪減希望不要浮邊爛邊嘛還有很多績效不好的我們稍微遵截經費 結果不高興 結果"},{"start":522.641,"end":534.035,"text":"這個中央政府整個情緒失控拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這種報復行為不行最後最後本席請教這個有沒有可能收回陳敏的可能"},{"start":536.528,"end":552.995,"text":"因為現在按照刪讀的決議這個636億是一定要刪我們提出的互議也沒有通過636億你們各部會去分攤嘛各部會有很多的經費去分攤各部會已經被刪除掉了1400多億了你參考一下去年的預算"},{"start":562.335,"end":582.213,"text":"對不對今天你比去年還多出兩千億所以你參考一下去年的預算如果其他的部分可以刪減的部分在大院在審議的過程幾千個提案就會被刪掉所以反正現在整個社會要了解這個是行政院一意孤行的結果"},{"start":583.053,"end":586.579,"text":"一意孤行然後專門拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這一塊其實我想這個社會自由公論好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時5分）謝謝主席，本席有請龔秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：秘書長好。因為前面有兩位委員提到去年內政委員會的會議，本席想要在這裡特別說明，秘書長你覺得會議狀態不明或怎麼樣，試問那一天是誰杯葛？其實是執政黨委員杯葛整個的議事程序，搞不清楚的也是執政黨的行政院秘書長，我們很遺憾執政黨又要杯葛會議，然後又不來備詢，但是今天本席的質詢內容沒有這個，我只是在一開始先針對這部分說明一下。","今天想跟秘書長就教針對各直轄市政府或縣市政府的一般性補助款2,501億，首先本席請教這2,501億在去年審查114年度總預算的時候有被立法院刪減嗎？有沒有任何一個立委提議刪減？有沒有？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：並沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，原因是什麼？本席跟大家說，因為行政院主計總處提出114年度中央政府總預算編列(一)法律義務支出明細表，所以這2,501億對地方政府的一般性補助款是不能刪減的，立法院都不能刪減，行政院也不能任意刪減。什麼情況下可以刪減？這個有辦法、有規定，秘書長我想你應該知道，中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實施前一年度的預算編列數，得刪減補助款的情形是採正面表列，也就是第四條違反限制規定與第五條執行效能、執行情形、開源節流的績效，以及第六條拒絕提供補助經費之用，還有第十二條有依法得徵收之財源而不徵收等，這些都是地方政府有具體明確違失的情形，行政院才可以不予補助或是刪減補助款。目前我們看到立法院依法行政，立法院不能刪減的我們沒有一個委員刪減，但是行政院卻把應該要通案刪減的636億，也就是這636億通案刪減應該是要在行政院各部會去通刪分攤的，但是行政院的決定卻只針對地方政府，報復民眾、懲罰民眾。本席在這邊要請教秘書長，這個決策是誰決定的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，中央政府對於地方政府的支持是一定的，否則我們就不用編列2,500億……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請不要浪費我的時間，我的時間已經沒了。法定支出不得刪減，除了它有違規的情況，但是現在行政院卻把這636億要在各部會分攤的，全部只分攤在地方政府的一般性補助款，本席想請教，這到底是誰的決策？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：其他中央政府的部分已經被刪減了一千四百多億，而且是在大院不斷地……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我想請教您的就是，是誰決定把這636億就用在2,501億的一般性補助款？是誰決定的？是卓榮泰院長還是賴清德總統？是誰決定的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：主計總處會提出一些可能的救濟方法，也會跟行政院來做討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是主計總處。但是主計總處之前在去年告訴我們立法院，這個是法定義務支出，絕對不能刪減，結果……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：剛剛主計總處的專門委員已經說了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你說是主計總處主計長建議的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：他是主計總處專門委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係。我現在先確定，是誰決定的？主計總處也是提議吧。主計總處跟我們講不能刪，結果跟行政院來提議要刪減，哇！我們的政府可以這樣子違法亂紀、違規？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有，如果沒有那個六百……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有636億的空白刪除的話，就不會發生這樣的情況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：636億這一塊本來過去也都有通案刪減，就是要行政院來立法院大家一起協調或是行政院應該各部會刪減，結果你不做，你全部加諸在民眾，然後影響我們人民的民生……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：通案刪減939億，我們行政院也沒有發表……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，秘書長，本席沒有請你回答。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在是主計總處跟行政院提案，那誰最後決策？誰最後拍板定案的嘛？卓院長嗎？不敢講？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是院長沒錯，因為他……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，是卓院長。所以主計總處主計長很有問題，對立法院不能刪的，行政院來刪，而且違反自己訂出來的規定。所以現在這個一般性補助款2,501億就要轉嫁到地方，影響了學童的交通、老人家的生活、托育的照顧、長照的照顧、公共醫療、消防建設、文化活動等等，全部都加諸到地方。","本席最後要再詢問秘書長，今年通過的總預算是不是歷史新高？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，有史以來最高的嘛。結果通過的預算歷史新高，你們卻告訴我們窒礙難行。OK，窒礙難行的部分，當初各部會的溝通我們沒辦法管到那麼細，但是我們希望未來你們很多東西要加強溝通，你們很多沒有溝通。","最後本席要說，整個通案刪減636億如果在中央各部會來分攤的話，大概占中央政府總預算2%左右，就像大水庫理論這樣子分攤，結果我們的行政院竟然轉嫁到地方，造成地方百分之二十幾的衝擊，所以我們希望我們的政府治理、中央執政不要情緒失控。人有情緒失控，所以會有錯誤的言行，但是我們合理地刪減，希望不要浮編、濫編，還有很多績效不好的，我們希望稍微撙節經費，結果中央政府不高興，整個情緒失控，拿民眾開刀、拿民眾當肉票，這種報復行為不行！最後本席請教，這個有沒有收回成命的可能？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，現在按照三讀的決議，這個636億是一定要刪，我們提出了覆議也沒有通過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，636億是你們各部會去分攤嘛，各部會有很多的經費去分攤……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：各部會已經被刪除掉了一千四百多億了，而且很多的部會都被刪到骨頭了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你參考一下去年的預算，對不對？今天你比去年還多出2,000億，所以你參考一下去年的預算，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：其他的部會可以刪減的部分，在大院審議的過程，透過幾千個提案，就會被刪掉……"],["徐委員欣瑩：反正現在整個社會要瞭解，這個是行政院一意孤行的結果……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們是沒有辦法在窒礙難行的情況之下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後專門拿民眾開刀、拿民眾當肉票，這一塊其實我想社會自有公論，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","翁曉玲","張啓楷","張雅琳","王鴻薇"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1145401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}