{"error":false,"id":["162059"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":162059,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162059","日期":"2025-05-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,19],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-05-28T14:02:25+08:00","結束時間":"2025-05-28T14:08:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24d7d5c2a2c10d731af05c7c77e5f132fd0eca21237c41e0925e919f47949058595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"14:02:25 - 14:08:23","會議時間":"2025-05-28T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查（一）行政院函請審議、（二）委員王美惠等18人、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人、（四）委員李坤城等16人、（五）委員吳秉叡等18人、（六）委員陳亭妃等16人、（七）委員蔡易餘等17人、（八）委員何欣純等22人及（九）委員吳思瑤等17人分別擬具「個人資料保護委員會組織法草案」案。\n【第（八）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（九）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n（星期三下午及星期四全天為一次會））","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.19096875,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.22471875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.19409375,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.771593750000001,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.457218750000003,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":30.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.03034375,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.16909375,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.298468750000005,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.135343750000004,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.45909375000001,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.87971875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.04846875,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.08221875000001,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.23784375000001,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.31346875,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.11846875,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.80596875,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.91534375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.04909375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.71534375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.80784375,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.35534375,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.51534375000001,"end":115.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.72596875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.37534375000001,"end":124.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.92284375000001,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.47534375000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.24721875,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.34409375,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.05659375000002,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.32221875000002,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.93721875,"end":141.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.42221875,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.90721875,"end":144.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.05846875,"end":151.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.17159375,"end":154.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.49159375000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.15346875,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.82846875,"end":162.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.65534375000001,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.87471875,"end":163.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.66784375,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.43971875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.96284375000002,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.51534375,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.11346875,"end":175.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.49721875,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.61534375000002,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.54659375,"end":188.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.76096875000002,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.91159375,"end":199.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.52721875,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.19784375,"end":201.3328437500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是登載不實的但很厲害的事情啊 是什麼很厲害的事情啊 是他登載不實然後呢 他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選"},{"start":111.394,"end":135.071,"text":"我不同意公開我個人的主要學歷我看了我是瞠目結舌我們的國科會還給人家一個選項說你可以不要公開你的最高學歷今天你不要申請公職你不要申請政府的經費我都沒意見結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開下一個問題就來了"},{"start":141.001,"end":154.225,"text":"最高學歷這個是個資沒有問題但問題是因為個資的範圍很廣嘛有法律的授權有正當的理由基本上都要公開我這個認識沒有錯吧個人資料保護法15條你應該很熟啊要不然你怎麼當主任你有看到嗎"},{"start":165.535,"end":182.556,"text":"所以你也要回答我的問題嗎跟委員報告喔這裡面也涉及到一個蠻重要的另一個法律叫做政府資訊公開法沒錯很好政府資訊公開法來我們接下來看政府資訊公開法第18條第一項第六款"},{"start":183.621,"end":207.207,"text":"政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一因限制公開或不提供他說公開或提供有侵害個人的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權有嗎這個來跟國家申請經費的人他是什麼學歷這個是公開會涉及到他隱私嗎是職業上秘密嗎"},{"start":208.578,"end":220.956,"text":"我多一個好好比啊買拿到哪一個博士學位是羞於其恥還是什麼 一公開的哇 洩漏國家機密洩漏我個人職業上的秘密是這樣嗎來 請教主任"},{"start":224.622,"end":246.557,"text":"因為各自法跟政治法目前兩個在競合適用的時候因為最高行政法院也歷次有做過一些判例是沒錯他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法沒錯那所以呢依照政府資訊公開法按照你作為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度"},{"start":248.779,"end":272.479,"text":"認為申請要他公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎但是因為現在政府制定的官方是給持有資料的這個機關是按照這個規定18條第1項就來做決定說有沒有但有公益有必要你覺得有沒有公益的必要但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料應該是由國科會去"},{"start":273.3,"end":299.852,"text":"踢皮球就對了 現在踢給國科會沒有沒有 這我們沒有這個職長 請委員見諒我最後講一件事情就好了啦人家去申請 要公開這個資料他為什麼要申請 他要揭弊啊我明明就知道你造假啊 亂寫啊但是呢 我們的科技部很厲害人家去跟他申請的時候他說 因為涉及到各自法的保護啊"},{"start":300.788,"end":323.508,"text":"所以欠難提供啊 你看 朝偉的臉看得都瞠目結舌啊 難以置信啊我要先取得這個資料 我還知道他造假嘛請我們的科技部幫忙遮醜啊 遮到這樣子的程度啊您作為各支法的主管機關啊 認為科技部這樣濫用各支法 您同意嗎"},{"start":324.403,"end":326.043,"text":"我最後時間到,我只簡單跟主任講一件事"},{"start":342.788,"end":355.321,"text":"法學界很多人各執法是政府公開資訊法的專業領域的專家今天聽到你站在這邊講本來對你很敬重可能會有一些失望好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（14時2分）謝謝主席。麻煩請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["黃委員國昌：主任好。我長期觀察我國有關個人資料保護的法制跟落實上，我最沒辦法理解的一個問題是，該好好保護的個資沒有被保護好，常常拿去胡搞瞎搞。有一些是政治人物拿去胡搞瞎搞，有一些是詐團跑去胡搞瞎搞，搞了半天責任都沒有澈底的被追究。這個是為什麼我們在處理相關案件的時候，大家對於目前個人資料保護法的法制，實際上落實的程度有很高的疑問。","但在另外一方面，我觀察到一個更可笑的現象，是個人資料保護法竟然拿來作為違法濫權的遮羞布。我為什麼說個人資料保護法被拿來當成違法濫權的遮羞布？我國派去英國的公使，在自己送交給各個政府單位上面的學歷，不管是取得教授的證書，還是跟國科會申請經費拿納稅人的錢去做研究，學歷是登載不實的。但很厲害的是，他登載不實，然後他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選，我不同意公開個人的主要學歷，我看了是瞠目結舌，我們的國科會還給人家一個選項是可以不要公開你的最高學歷。今天你不要申請公職，你不要申請政府的經費，我都沒意見。結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開，下一個問題就來了，最高學歷這個是個資，沒有問題。但問題是個資的範圍很廣，有法律的授權、有正當的理由，基本上都要公開，我這個認知沒有錯吧？個人資料保護法第十五條你應該很熟啊！要不然你怎麼當主任。你有看到嗎？"],["李主任世德：有，知道。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你有要回答我的問題嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，這裡面也涉及到另外一個滿重要的法律即政府資訊公開法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯！很好！政府資訊公開法！政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項規定「政府資訊屬於下列各款情形之一者，應限制公開或不予提供」，其中第六款是「公開或提供有侵害個人隱私、職業上秘密或著作權人之公開發表權者」，有嗎？來跟國家申請經費的人是什麼學歷，這個公開了會涉及到他的隱私嗎？是職業上的秘密嗎？我是哪個學校畢業的、拿到哪個博士學位，是羞於啟齒還是什麼？一旦公開了──哇！洩漏國家機密！洩漏我個人職業上的秘密！是這樣嗎？請教主任。"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，個資法跟政資法兩個法在競合適用的時候，最高行政法院也有做過一些判例，他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，那所以呢？依照政府資訊公開法，你做為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度，認為要申請人公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎？我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎？"],["李主任世德：但是現在政府資訊公開法是給持有資料的機關按照這個法第十八條第一項來決定有沒有「但對公益有必要」。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得有沒有「對公益有必要」？"],["李主任世德：但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料，應該是由國科會去做決定。"],["黃委員國昌：踢皮球就對了，現在踢給國科會。"],["李主任世德：沒有！沒有！我們沒有這個職掌，請委員見諒。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後講一件事情就好了，人家去申請，要公開這個資料，他為什麼要申請？他要揭弊啊！我明明就知道你造假、亂寫啊！但是我們的科技部很厲害，人家去跟他申請的時候，他說因為涉及到個資法的保護，所以「歉難提供」。你看召委的臉，看得都瞠目結舌，難以置信。我要先取得這個資料才知道他造假嘛！結果我們的科技部幫忙遮醜，遮到這樣子的程度！您做為個資法的主管機關，對科技部這樣濫用個資法，您同意嗎？"],["李主任世德：剛剛也跟委員報告過，這邊是回到政府資訊公開法，科技部的函後面也有提它做出的這個是一個處分，所以如果再提起說要申請政府資訊被拒絕的話，按照政府資訊……"],["黃委員國昌：好啦！我的發言時間到了，最後我只簡單跟主任講一件事，法學界很多在個資法、政府資訊公開法這個專業領域的專家，今天聽到你站在這邊講的話，本來對你很敬重的人可能會有一些失望。謝謝！"],["李主任世德：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。這部是組織法，另外提到這些在相關的作用法裡面的部分，其實等一下還可以討論，大家再來集思廣益。現在休息30秒，請蔡易餘委員來做主席。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：不要休息，直接開始啦！","請莊瑞雄召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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