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謝謝公平會接下來是我們數位部林怡靜政務次長林俊秀代理署長我們數位產業署自動安全署鄭新明副署長勞動部陳明仁常務次長長次謝謝你勞動關係司王厚偉市長"},{"start":1830.63,"end":1848.982,"text":"職業安全衛生署陳志祺副組長以及張藝兵副組長謝謝勞動部以及我們衛福部食品藥物管理署林金富副組長林副組長經濟部商業發展署蘇文林組長"},{"start":1856.175,"end":1884.891,"text":"個人資料保護委員會及籌備處查核規劃組張玉玲組長以及行政院消保處陳興宏副組長本次會議就外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範"},{"start":1887.096,"end":1895.361,"text":"另一個議題是公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺因應措施及現行遊覽車評鑑制度的檢討與經濟進行專題報告首先我們就請列席機關報告我們請交通部陳世凱部長報告"},{"start":1913.564,"end":1934.409,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範以及公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施即現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進進行專案報告表達感謝"},{"start":1940.615,"end":1961.61,"text":"在外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流規範的部分因為外送平台業務包括了平台經濟管理、貨運外送、交通安全、食安、職安等等的面向由各部會依全責分工"},{"start":1962.651,"end":1973.923,"text":"本部將就全責相關外送所設、貨運、營運以及交通安全管理作為以及執行成效進行說明"},{"start":1975.052,"end":1995.394,"text":"並且持續落實外送交通安全管理另外,有關近期外界關切本部10月9日預告相關擬定外送平台機車貨運價的透明化修正草案的政策目的、修正重點以及後續的作業程序也一併進行報告說明"},{"start":1997.296,"end":2004.691,"text":"此外,在大型公路客貨運、駕駛短缺之因應措施即現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進的部分為因應近年"},{"start":2009.591,"end":2023.804,"text":"客貨運業者駕駛人力流失的情形本部除了自108年到現在已經辦理了四階段營業大客車增財補助方案修法延長汽車運輸業駕駛執照的年齡到68歲"},{"start":2031.028,"end":2051.039,"text":"調升補貼公路客運運價協助業者改善薪資福利之外今年也向勞動部申請並且獲得同意可以引進橋外生投入補充駕駛人力目前也正持續研議向勞動部爭取可再引進更適用外籍人力的可行性"},{"start":2052.625,"end":2078.574,"text":"希望能夠儘速的有效協助運輸業者補充、補足所需的駕駛人力在遊覽車評鑑制度部分現行的制度主要是以安全為核心並且引導業者建立完善專業科技化管理機制進而建立品牌化經營模式並透過評鑑等地提供充分資訊給消費者"},{"start":2080.697,"end":2109.165,"text":"租車者選擇參考此外同時也希望藉由平建制度讓業者瞭解經濟方向後續將持續收集各界的建議以經濟平建制度提升遊覽車客運服務的品質與安全以下容我請本部公路局陳局長文瑞向各位委員做報告再次謝謝各位委員的指教請陳文瑞局長"},{"start":2116.289,"end":2131.373,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位理事先生接著由交通部公路局來報告外送平台業務的相關課題外送平台業務包括平台經濟管理、貨運外送的交通安全、食安、食安等面向是由各部會依權責分工管理"},{"start":2131.713,"end":2158.351,"text":"那交通部主管的業務主要為貨運外送的交通安全管理所以我們已經有訂定了機車外送的交通安全指引依外送員的這一個相關的交通違規依情節有相關的輔導機制而且有需要的話會報送駕訓班參加機車的駕駛教育另外公路監理機關每月也都會到業者的公司辦理安全考核同時每季會跟警察機關辦理全國性的同步機車的一個路檢"},{"start":2159.051,"end":2164.533,"text":"那經統計本年的1到7月份外送員的平均事故率為0.26%比這個我們訂定安全指引這個期間之前的110年的同期減少0.45%降幅達到63%"},{"start":2174.697,"end":2189.215,"text":"那接著來說明外送機車運價準則研議修訂的情形那這一次交通部在10月9日預告的相關的修正法規的草案主要的修法目的是要促使外送定價透明化民眾的保障要最大化"},{"start":2189.736,"end":2219.037,"text":"那修正的重點在汽車運輸業管理規則108-1條的這個草案的重點主要就是要訂定這個運價透明化的相關的規定我們會要求業者在我們訂定的運價的上限之下來訂定本身的一個運費另外運費要經過公路主管機關指定的專業機構測試而且這個業者要揭示運費然後要配合這個主管機關管理跟集合那這樣子才能夠達到這個運價的一個透明化"},{"start":2219.577,"end":2246.05,"text":"另外在運輸業客貨運價準則8-1條、8-2條的草案的重點主要是採延車公里而且會因地制宜那直轄市縣市政府的機車外送的同業工會跟相關的工會他共同擬定了機車貨運的運價後是報中央的公路主管機關那由中央公路主管機關在匯商直轄市縣市政府來訂定那這個草案預告期到"},{"start":2246.71,"end":2271.142,"text":"這一個10月25日不過在預告期間包括消費者端、外送平台、外送員、工會都會表達相關的意見所以我們中整在整個預告期間大家的意見我們也定在下週10月30日再邀集消費者的代表、平台業者、外送員、工會還有相關的專家學者共同招會來進行討論那主要目的就是希望就是說在外送運價"},{"start":2272.102,"end":2288.362,"text":"能夠達到充分透明跟消費者權益可充分保障之下我們才會進入法制作業程序那以上是整個這個外送平台的一個報告那接著報告就是另外一份就是大型客貨的駕駛的短缺的因應措施跟現行遊覽車評鑑制度的檢討精進"},{"start":2290.825,"end":2307.317,"text":"那在大型客貨運駕駛短缺的因應措施我們有以下幾項第一個放寬這個大型職業駕駛人的持照年齡的上限到68歲那截至目前已增加公路汽車客運業跟市區汽車客運業475人遊覽車客運業858人也就是說有1333人申請換照在職業"},{"start":2314.102,"end":2330.354,"text":"那另外對於大客車駕駛的徵才補助我們在疫情前108年辦過一次那疫情3年在111年舒緩那我們要找回駕駛所以我們從111年起開始辦理大客車駕駛徵才補助一直到現在都還在辦理"},{"start":2331.154,"end":2355.525,"text":"截至今年的9月底這個專案已經招募了3201人今年我們還在臺灣各地辦了5場的招募活動也媒合業者358人另外這個價值短缺的第三項就是我們來調升補貼的運價改善薪資的福利我們合理反映公路科運跟國道科運的整個運價的成本"},{"start":2358.826,"end":2380.08,"text":"1、2年的5月跟今年的5月都有做相關的一個調生那我們也要求業者調生的這個運價差額是由政府補貼的那業者要用於提升人員的薪資福利讓駕駛能夠安心留任那另外在引進外籍人力的部分我們納入橋外生從事中階技術工作的類別也跟勞動部爭取"},{"start":2381.894,"end":2411.062,"text":"那勞動部已經招會、評估而且也提送國發會討論後同意納入後續是由勞動部依照相關的法規修正事宜來辦理那另外就是說這一個引進外籍人力的話其實業者也有一些就是說希望能夠再增加所以我們公路局在10月18日也邀集貨運商業、公路市區汽車客運業、遊覽車客運業也共同開放討論可能還有其他藍領跟白領的外籍移工可以來從事駕駛的一個工作"},{"start":2411.742,"end":2439.645,"text":"那接著來報告遊覽車評鑑制度的精進那公路局是在109年訂定遊覽車客運業的評鑑作為要點我們的主要的要點就是以營運安全為核心評鑑項目裡面很重要的就是基本的安全紀錄業者的肇事紀錄、勞檢紀錄、道路交通管理的違規紀錄跟汽車運輸業的管理違規紀錄那只要就是說達到一項這一些安全紀錄沒有達標的話它其實就是不列等不推薦給就是說社會大眾"},{"start":2440.606,"end":2457.133,"text":"那另外業者如果說在專業科技化的管理品牌化的經營項目有突出的話其實他最高會達到優等的一個這個評鑑那後續評鑑的一個精進作為我們在今年度因為已經我們已經這個依照這個要點也辦了111跟112年的這個評鑑那今年度我們也特別在邀集產官學員來研議相關的精進包括有提出說這個評鑑的辦理的頻率"},{"start":2468.038,"end":2497.318,"text":"還有平建的項目、內容、標準、權重是不是有一些違規或事故還要再做更大的一個權重來納入這一個整個平建的一個考量那另外也希望對優良業者增訂相關的獎勵機制那這一個部分因為我們113年的這一個精進的措施各界大概有一些意見所以我們也會來納入那來作為後續的這個平建制度的一個精進那以上這個交通部兩份的一個報告敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2502.142,"end":2518.599,"text":"好 謝謝交通部接下來很多朋友都關心的外送平台相關的議題首先是不是針對於兩大外送平台整併的一個相關的進度議題我們邀請我們公平會李美主委來做一個報告 謝謝"},{"start":2527.029,"end":2542.86,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位機關代表、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安我今天很榮幸蜂邀來針對外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、全公權益以及食品交流安全規範提出專題報告並被質詢我現在緊就"},{"start":2548.064,"end":2570.92,"text":"外送平台的整併這部分來跟各位做一個說明我們都知道外送平台的出現結合了平台經濟以及零工經濟兩大新興經濟型態也改變我們過去對於消費的習慣以及餐飲業的商業模式同時也創造了新的工作機會公平會向來都非常關注外送平台的"},{"start":2571.32,"end":2588.633,"text":"市場競爭狀況之前我們對於有外送平台有限制競爭的行為違反公平交易法的規定我們也有處罰的案例那目前我們已經針對Uber Eats跟Hupenda的結合申報已經收到這樣的一個申報案件目前是在審議當中"},{"start":2590.174,"end":2609.954,"text":"為了充分了解這兩家外送平台的結合對於市場競爭秩序的影響我們已經分別在臺中、高雄、宜蘭、臺北召開市場會議聽取消費者團體、外送工會、餐飲界、相關的協會以及含請衛生福利部、交通部、經濟部"},{"start":2612.217,"end":2634.037,"text":"勞動部、數位發展部、財政部以及行政院消保處等相關政府機關以及利害關係人也包括其他競爭者、潛在競爭者、連鎖餐飲業者、量販超市、餐飲業工協會、外送員工會團體等等提供意見這兩家外送平台的結合"},{"start":2635.997,"end":2651.591,"text":"將顯著地改變市場結構因此公平會將來審查考量的因素會包括這兩家平台結合以後會不會因此而對於消費者或者是店家有提高價格的能力那結合以後它跟其他的競爭者"},{"start":2652.452,"end":2667.749,"text":"是不是有產生聯合行為的可能性?潛在的競爭者是不是能夠進入外送餐飲平台這個市場?店家、外送員以及消費者等相關交易相對人對於外送平台的抗衡力量"},{"start":2668.43,"end":2682.979,"text":"以及其他會影響限制競爭效果的因素那最後我們會綜合考量根據公平交易法第13條的規定來審酌這個結合案件整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭的不利益綜合做決定"},{"start":2684.468,"end":2704.879,"text":"外送經濟已經深入我們全民的生活這兩家餐飲外送平台的結合會影響的層面非常廣泛公平交易委員會也一定會審慎依法來審查這個結合案對市場競爭的影響避免發生限制競爭的情形以上報告 敬請指教"},{"start":2705.399,"end":2718.751,"text":"謝主委預計的進度是怎麼樣就是說大概是目前的進度我們是請這個結合事業申請補件當中那目前還在補件的階段好 謝謝謝謝李主委"},{"start":2720.728,"end":2732.638,"text":"那剛剛交通部對於運價的一個指引公平會對於整併的一個情況接下來我們請那個數位部對於我們平台這個業者有些這個資訊的一個保護相關的一些議題請林次長"},{"start":2741.857,"end":2760.345,"text":"主席、委員及與會代表今天應邀參加貴委員會針對外送平台整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範進行專題報告以下是數位發展部的相關說明外送平台的議題廣泛主要可分為"},{"start":2761.746,"end":2773.807,"text":"資訊流、物流、金流以及勞動權益四大部分訴發部作為資訊服務業及第三方支付服務業的主管機關對外送平台的資訊安全及第三方支付安全負有重要責任"},{"start":2775.017,"end":2789.823,"text":"首先,一、在資訊流方面,數位發展部將加強外送平台的資安維護在行動裝置普及的情況下,確保外送平台 的資安防護至關重要速發部推動APP基本資安規範及檢測制度鼓勵業者將APP送交認證的民間實驗室進行資安檢測以防止會員資料及商業機密外洩"},{"start":2799.246,"end":2811.444,"text":"同時,針對偽冒詐騙網站的問題,速發部提供數位信任驗證方案,鼓勵導入零信任網路安全架構及多因子驗證技術,降低消費者被詐騙的風險"},{"start":2814.269,"end":2839.843,"text":"二、金流方面,數碼部將強化外送平台的第三方支付安全目前,除了UberEats及Foodpanda還有Lalamove以及浣熊外送平台等新興的外送平台這些平台的金流需求因為規模及經營的模式不同而有所差異我們說明如下首先是一些新興的平台,由於他們的"},{"start":2841.632,"end":2843.074,"text":"外送平台可參考已經通過登錄的業者進行合作"},{"start":2856.975,"end":2882.02,"text":"然後再來第二個部分是一些比較大型的平台主要就是UberEats以及Foodpanda由於他們本身也是兼營第三方支付的工作的那個服務所以目前的狀況是UberEats以及Foodpanda均已通過第三方支付服務機構的能量登錄並提供足額履約保證或專款專用的信託帳戶以保證消費者權益"},{"start":2884.921,"end":2903.768,"text":"如果未來兩家業者合併那有一個可能是他們的日均代理收付款項如果超過新台幣20億元的話那他們必須在6個月內向金管會申請電子支付的支付機構的許可但是在業者取得營業執照前仍屬第三方支付服務業"},{"start":2905.51,"end":2933.471,"text":"總而言之,數位化是數位發布的重要任務各部會正透過政策協作持續推動外送平台的完善以確保其在數位化時代的持續成長和社會效益提升消費者的體驗和服務品質以上報告,敬請指教謝謝各位委員的聆聽與建議謝謝好,謝謝數位部接下來外送平台針對我們外送員我們勞動部陳明仁次長"},{"start":2935.1,"end":2935.121,"text":"有請"},{"start":2944.147,"end":2966.34,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生勞動部緊就外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範涉及到外送員勞動權益保障的事項進行專題報告請委員不吝指教近年來外送平台新經濟模式迅速崛起也持續在發展當中改變了消費型態也提升了生活的便利性"},{"start":2966.92,"end":2987.736,"text":"但是對於外送員的勞動權益保障就會是一個重要的議題目前世界各國在如何保障外送員的做法都不太一樣但勞動部也基於保障外送員的勞動權益持續規劃相關的作為首先我們透過制定行政指引強化工作安全、運用調整機制和正義輔導"},{"start":2989.077,"end":3015.222,"text":"外送員的平台業者跟工會建立對話機制詳細的部分說明如下第一,我們訂定勞動契約的認定原則為了避免假承攬真僱傭損及外送員權益的事項我們在108年就訂定發布勞動契約認定指導原則及勞動契約從屬性的判斷這部分可以提供大家做一個重要的參據也獲得法院的支持和肯認"},{"start":3016.502,"end":3038.148,"text":"更重要的是在強化職業安全衛生的部分我們修訂發布的職業安全衛生設施規則以及頒布的外送作業安全衛生指引包括反光背心、安全帽等等以及職業安全衛生教育訓練、落實相關的防護措施也要求平台業者訂定危害防止計畫"},{"start":3039.949,"end":3062.562,"text":"同時要納入合理派單避免工作負荷過重造成勞工身心健康危害等等其次我們對外送平台也定期實施稽查那從110年到現在有實施了188家那對於外送員在用路安全的部分我們也配合交通部、公路總局、辦理貨運業從事外送服務的專案聯合稽查"},{"start":3065.084,"end":3086.665,"text":"要求業者負起監管責任、遵守勞動及交通相關法規、減少事故發生其次在外送員非常關切的保險權益部分我們除了在外送作業安全衛生指引就要求平台業者要為外送員投保團體傷害保險之外也要求"},{"start":3087.285,"end":3106.111,"text":"要為了保障第三人的權益和減輕外送人負擔,要求外送平台業者要為外送人投保第三責任保險目前,比較大的UberEats跟Fupanda都已經為了外送人提供了第三責任保險兩家的從業員大概已經占到所有外送"},{"start":3108.172,"end":3134.59,"text":"食品外送平台的九成期可以獲得一定的保障其他比較零星的個別的平台業者我們還在持續督促當中那有關於職業災害保險的部分我們在勞工職業災害保險及保護法通過之後就有很多相對簡易或便民的措施所以不管是勞保局的官網或者是便利商店的多媒體事務機或者公會代保等等各式各樣的簡化的方便投保的"},{"start":3135.03,"end":3159.804,"text":"工具可以提供外送員來使用我們也督促地方政府在相關的勞資爭議的調組機制要特別主動積極的來提供相關的協助措施讓這個個案爭議有效解決那更重要的是在平台業者跟外送員工會這部分我們協助雙方建立對話機制從去年的7月到現在已經召開了8次的對話平台的會議雙方陸續就"},{"start":3162.787,"end":3167.377,"text":"勞動的權益包括停權、申訴管道、職業債保險、報酬等都在進一步對話中"},{"start":3169.585,"end":3195.038,"text":"其實就有關於兩大外送平台的審查案子我們基本上尊重公平會依法審理的一個程序但是就保障外送員的權益的部分我們有正式去函要求外送平台業者在跟外送工會就工會所提出有關於勞動權益的幾項重大主要達成共識之前"},{"start":3195.898,"end":3221.031,"text":"要將雙方的共識納入必要的審查文件無法達成共識的時候就不宜進入審查程序第二個部分就是我們也要求外送平台對於結合案影響外送員的重要勞動權益事項要提出具體的說明和處理的方案包括平台之間的外送員如何移轉所獲得報酬能否維持既有的水準等重要事項然後進一步承諾跟公會來具體協商"},{"start":3222.992,"end":3251.379,"text":"這部分在保障外送員權益的獲得共識之前我們不支持兩家外送員進行結合最後因應外送平台業者的這樣一個新的經濟消費模式會涉及到消費者、合作店家、外送員、平台業者及貨運業者等等涉及的層面很廣相關部會均就其全責業務範圍積極在研究管理措施目前而言交通部對於外送平台業者收取"},{"start":3252.739,"end":3281.68,"text":"相關的外送運費及費不透明導致的相關紛爭他們已經預告修正要修正外送平台機車運輸運價相關的法規這有助於保障消費者的權益那這樣一個運價的處理也有助於未來外送公會跟外送平台業者在協商報酬的一個重要的依據我們本部競表支持也會積極配合該部的推動那其他的部分就參與請大家參閱書面以上報告"},{"start":3282.26,"end":3301.807,"text":"請請各位指教謝謝好 謝謝勞動部的報告今天最後一位專題報告的我們請代表消費者的行政院消保處陳新鴻副處長來做報告其他經濟部、衛福部以及個人資料保護委員會的書面報告也請委員們參議"},{"start":3310.189,"end":3337.295,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位在場的機關先進代表大家好那今天陳貴委員會邀請就外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規定提出這個專題報告以下緊究外界對消費者權益較為關注的外送平台的合併案以及外送機車這個運價的修正草案報告如下請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":3337.975,"end":3357.787,"text":"第一個部分是外送平台業者的合併案這個部分那關於這樣的一個議題其實公平會已經開始做相關的行政上的一個措施那包括請各機關包括本處在內然後含尋相關的一些意見以下僅就行政院消保處相關的一些看法意見"},{"start":3358.707,"end":3384.52,"text":"在此做報告第一個部分我們認為相關的這樣一個合併案可能會造成有三種的這個可能的一個不太有利於消費者的影響第一個部分是消費者選擇權可能因為合併案而被削弱因為結合之後業者對於市場價格的這個決定具有主導權那在定價權被業者掌控的情形之下當然消費者的選擇權相對的下降"},{"start":3385.06,"end":3408.482,"text":"所以可能會被迫接受不利的條件例如在服務費用的調漲服務品質下降等等的問題那這樣有可能會產生一些的消費爭議那第二個部分是我們認為說在這個會員權的部分會不會因為合併之後而受到一些影響特別是在目前來講其實各行各業大概都會採取所謂的一個訂閱制這樣的一個消費的一個模式"},{"start":3409.162,"end":3421.708,"text":"那當然這個為了要吸引我們的消費者能夠去這個加入會員當然會有提供一些相關的一些優惠比如說免外送服務費等等之類的那如果說合併之後我們也會比較擔心說那這個時候會不會這個相關的"},{"start":3424.909,"end":3445.308,"text":"原來就的這樣的一個權益因此就會受到一些剝奪或影響第三個部分是相關的合作店家的成本的提高會不會就因此去轉嫁給我們消費者去做最後的承擔因為結合之後這個業者調帳的合作店家的譬如說像上架費、交易抽成等等的這些費用"},{"start":3445.808,"end":3463.187,"text":"那麼如果說這個因為這個店家這個我們的這個平台業者提高那我想店家可能就是轉而讓我們的消費者做最後的一些承擔所以這是正在行政院消保處的立場就消費者權益上比較憂心的這幾點如果有合併的情況發生的話"},{"start":3465.129,"end":3483.567,"text":"那麼如果說在第二個部分是關於外送機車的這個運價修正草案那當然交通部呢 剛才其實部長有報告過也就是說在相關汽車運輸管理規則的相關的規定中已經有一個草案出來就是說訂定基本運費的一個定價公式那當然運費包括啟程、運程、等待樓層等等的這些費用"},{"start":3488.491,"end":3514.974,"text":"我們比較會有一些疑慮的是在於說因為這些費用基本上來講的話其實在具體的一個實際的運用層面上可能會產生一些要等待討論的一些部分譬如說在商家如果他們完成自參貨減貨的時間如果有研製的時候這時候我們的消費者該不該負擔這樣的費用還是這是由平台負擔還是這是由我們的商家本身負擔"},{"start":3516.075,"end":3536.843,"text":"如果說沒有定清楚的話我們很擔心說這些相關的費用其實定在這個上面但實際的執行層面如果不夠清楚的話那我相信這個相關的這個消費者一定也是最後的一個受害者那第二個部分是如果說像這個草案中所提到運價準則草案中所提到的這個所謂的差別費率等等"},{"start":3537.463,"end":3554.916,"text":"那差別費率其實會比較擔心的是如果是採一個所謂的一致性的差別對這個費率或是說才有差別的一個各縣市政府不太一樣的話那這個時候會不會有一種集中效應產生也就是說這個外送員如果因為"},{"start":3555.736,"end":3584.091,"text":"可能接單的可能性比較高它就集中到這個比較大的都會區相對來講其他的縣市或其他比較偏遠的地方會不會造成說沒有外送員可以來送那我們消費權也漸漸受到一些影響所以以上來講的話其實大概也是消費者保護團體也是很關心的這種比較細節性的一些問題不過這個我們都會在相關後續的會議中也"},{"start":3584.531,"end":3608.656,"text":"跟交通部做後續的一些研商至於說在本處在針對這兩個議題所採取的消費者保護措施呢但我們發現說其實歷年來其實兩大這個我們的外送平台的消費糾紛的案件數其實也挺高的那相關的一些爭議的一個態樣包括會員權益啦或包括一些平台的退費等等這些之類"},{"start":3609.156,"end":3626.806,"text":"那有發生目前來講有發生任何的消費爭議其實各縣市政府的消保官都會做積極的一些協商處理那這個以上是就行政院消保處在這個兩個議題中所發表的所報告的一些內容那敬請各位委員指教好 謝謝行政院消保處的報告"},{"start":3628.168,"end":3652.757,"text":"好 今天我們機關的報告告一段落現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘 劣期委員4加1分鐘第二 委員發言登記於10點30分前截止三 各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診"},{"start":3654.017,"end":3664.005,"text":"是暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第5中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位的李昆哲委員發言謝謝召委請一下陳世凱部長以及陳文睿局長、林福山市長、勞動部陳局長、林市長"},{"start":3685.061,"end":3711.061,"text":"部長好我們現在已經是正式進入一個大缺工的時代不管是相關的產業、製造業、傳統的產業另外就是跟生活相關的這些人力也缺少問題非常嚴重包含餐廳、包含司機、外送員以及相關的長照等等"},{"start":3711.901,"end":3733.14,"text":"這些人力已經是跟我們生活息息相關的人力也缺少那我們看到公共運輸來講我們看到很嚴重的運量減少營收大跌還有相關的司機缺工這個都嚴重衝擊到公共的運輸我們看到我們的市區客運"},{"start":3734.341,"end":3744.086,"text":"還有公路客運相關的搭乘人次以及收入都明顯的減少那市區客運2019跟2023來比較2023已經減少了64萬人次這是市區客運公路客運就是跨縣市還有國道客運這種公路客運少了13萬"},{"start":3757.492,"end":3773.724,"text":"人次左右那相關的營收呢市區客運少了5.32%那公路客運少了41%更嚴重那我們公路局有初步的統計公路客運缺員大概772位駕駛那市區客運缺員大概1443位駕駛總共缺少了2215位駕駛"},{"start":3782.91,"end":3804.893,"text":"部長我先請教你你認為司機大幅減少原因是什麼來簡單說明一下如果以客運來說的話因為過去三年的疫情造成客運業他們的營運上面出現了問題所以大量的司機員流失這是第一個最重要的問題因為同時間流失了這麼大量之後要補齊其實不太容易那第二個就是說人才"},{"start":3805.513,"end":3830.7,"text":"流失了之後其實他有往貨運跑因為過去的疫情的過程當中貨運業其實狀況非常的好所以人才往那邊跑或者是外送員的部分也有一些人才往那邊跑也就是說就業多元化的部分讓很多的司機員往那個地方移動那第三個問題其實是因為這段時間其實大家對於服務業尤其是客運業的服務的要求相對的高那我們有些司機員有在反映說那這樣"},{"start":3831.24,"end":3851.695,"text":"很像開公車、開客運壓力相對大一些所以這個環境讓他們不太願意留在這裡部長就是說有受到疫情的衝擊啊讓這種搭乘的人數啊大幅的減少因為疫情衝擊大家都自行的騎車或者是開車那另外就是啊"},{"start":3852.515,"end":3876.841,"text":"新資的這個結構破碎化勞動條件的這樣的一個持續的惡化這也是對司機員減少的一個原因另外年齡結構也偏高現在老駕駛多新的補充人力也不足另外這都會嚴重的影響到公共運輸的安全這個是很嚴重的問題那針對我們相關的不管是"},{"start":3880.991,"end":3899.106,"text":"運量減少、收入減少、還有司機減少那交通部要有什麼具體的作為運量減少的部分當然我們會用一些比較優惠例如說T-pass的方式希望能夠讓我們的旅客跟通勤者會願意搭客運不要自己開車、不要自己騎車這個部分我們是這樣處理"},{"start":3900.447,"end":3922.493,"text":"那針對這個它的營收減少的部分其實我們在公路局的部分對於他們的補助客運業的補助其實也相對的相當多這段時間其實大家一直在努力協助這些客運業者那我相信客運業者也有感受到那第三個其實大家比較關注的議題是這個缺工的部分那缺工的部分一方面可以解決營收又可以解決薪資就是從運價面來處理"},{"start":3925.574,"end":3944.679,"text":"運價面我們第一個來處理讓它運價可以提升並且指定一部分的薪資是要流向薪資的部分來提升這個駕駛員的這個薪資那二方面是委員您剛剛有說到他們這個年齡偏大所以我們有開放到68歲以下都可以來開這個客運從65開放到68歲那這也讓這個流財應該有1000多人的流財"},{"start":3950.561,"end":3974.854,"text":"一千三百多人的這個人數有留下來那另外針對這個橋外生的部分我們也跟這個勞動部一起在努力他目前正在這個法制化的過程當中我們希望有一些外籍的移工跟橋外生可以補充到這方面的人力那另外針對這個徵才的補助方案其實公路局也提供了非常多的這個徵才的補助那目前我們也協助了"},{"start":3975.834,"end":3997.291,"text":"大概3000多人的這個人力的補充部長不管是放寬駕駛的年齡限制或者是相關的增採的一個補助或是相關的開放這樣這個外籍的人力這樣的一個政策思考其實都是減緩問題的嚴重性而已那其實我們看日本"},{"start":3997.831,"end":4025.006,"text":"日本這樣面對大缺工他們估計到2040年為止相關的司機或是外送員、廠照人力會減少20%這是一個很嚴重的問題那我們相關的 剛才提到的相關具體措施只是減緩問題的嚴重性而已我認為必須要改善勞動條件這個才是另外一個正確的方向"},{"start":4025.566,"end":4038.978,"text":"那我們從過去的司法判決裡面就是司機跟業者相關的因為勞資的糾紛透過司法途徑來處理那相關的資料有顯示統計薪資司機的薪資問題"},{"start":4042.501,"end":4065.898,"text":"明確地點出它的薪資破碎化薪資結構破碎化的這樣一個問題我們每月薪資大概是超過10個項目來組成不管是平均薪資大概是6至9萬但是它的玉石津貼佔了15%休息日的津貼佔了18%然後國定假日津貼佔了3%"},{"start":4068.079,"end":4083.184,"text":"加班津貼是達到36%所以說超過三分之一都是加班費這代表薪資的結構破碎化也代表勞動條件的持續惡化我先請教一下勞動部陳次長"},{"start":4087.284,"end":4101.527,"text":"陳次長,我們勞動部針對司機的薪資結構我認為是必須要跟業者來對話相關的工資及工時要明確的定義化來,請你簡單說明一下是,謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":4102.543,"end":4126.382,"text":"有關於汽車貨運業相關的司機的待遇確實他因為他的那個薪資的項目組成非常的複雜那這部分我們會跟交通部一起來努力因為現在的狀況其實就是委員所指教的其實人口結構的改變然後缺工時代的來臨所以我們除了一方面要提升國內的勞參率之外一方面已經國外的"},{"start":4127.282,"end":4150.137,"text":"相關的技術人力但是在整個流財的部分最終還是取決於薪資跟勞動條件的情況能不能留住相應的資產財這就是我說所說的相關的這樣的一個薪資的結構破碎化的問題勞動條件持續惡化必須要去做改善這部分我們會跟交通部也請部長跟那個"},{"start":4151.178,"end":4176.651,"text":"交通部跟勞動部必須來合作針對這個駕駛的工資及工時還有薪資結構要明確的定義化另外我們針對相關的不管是薪資的結構、工資、工時的定義化之後交通部也必須納入行政指導的項目裡面這個有沒有問題好,來嚴懿把它加入"},{"start":4177.179,"end":4198.014,"text":"好 最後的時間我佔用一點時間偽造車牌是逐年的增加這也增加造成交通的違法那相關的數據都在上面我就不再多說這個部長跟局長也都非常清楚那我們是希望具體的建議交通部應該要"},{"start":4200.885,"end":4224.917,"text":"研議相關偽造車牌的受害者免除更換牌照的這種製造費以及相關行政規範相關的費用另外也要研議針對偽造車牌者過去的違規行為因為偽造車牌無法查緝到的罰款要進行追繳研議針對使用偽造車牌的違規行為增加代保管車輛"},{"start":4226.198,"end":4250.35,"text":"必須等到罰款繳清後才可領回還有累犯者的沒入車輛等等來部長簡單回應一下報告委員您所建議的第一項我們已經有跟這個財政部來做溝通那這個部分他們是給我們比較正面的訊息所以第一項應該是可以那第二三項的部分我們目前正在檢討當中我們都納入這些建議來檢討那目前也朝這個方向來檢討另外我們針對相關的"},{"start":4255.857,"end":4279.799,"text":"偽造車牌的這樣一個議題交通部必須提出短中長程跟明確的做法例如說我們短期的做法是不是能夠在完稅或者是驗車之後相關的來貼上一張黃尾的這樣的一個貼紙這樣來做一個基本的辨識這是短期比較可行的一個做法"},{"start":4280.419,"end":4297.388,"text":"那中長期那我們是不是針對相關的這種辨識的這樣的一個貼片在相關的可以透過我們的這種智慧的系統AI的辨識系統可以來做一個初步的認定"},{"start":4298.922,"end":4319.347,"text":"另外長期就是說是否可以植入晶片可以用這樣的一個路感的偵測器以及相關的這樣的一個警情的系統來做AR的一個辨識但是這個很重要長期的這個要只能作為辨識車牌之用不可以有其他的個資或其他的相關個人的資訊來請說明一下"},{"start":4321.848,"end":4351.208,"text":"報告委員您所說的第一項短期措施我們現在也正在努力我們希望明年就可以比較具體有一個短期的防偽功能要出來包括這個防偽貼紙的這個部分我們也納入討論那中長期的部分確實是長期應該要來建構的部分那我們也會跟公路局來討論說我們中長期的計畫是什麼因為大概用短期的這個防偽只能擋一陣子因為那個道高一尺 謀高一丈有時候他們研發的速度很快那我們中長期的部分還是要趕快來思考"},{"start":4351.548,"end":4354.372,"text":"那有關於中期措施這種RFID黃尾標籤這個目前你們有在規劃嗎?"},{"start":4359.404,"end":4388.352,"text":"來 那個局長請他準備一下跟各位報告因為車牌有些部分其實在國內已經有相關的e-tag的這個資訊所以我們大概也會再跟這個高工局就是說對於就是說因為e-tag也是用RFID的相關的一個技術所以我想就是說我們中長期的措施委員所提出來的這些部分的話其實我們都有納入考量只是說因為它確實是比較有一些相關的配套措施要一起處理"},{"start":4388.592,"end":4409.442,"text":"那短期措施明年就可以實施嗎短期措施我們有提出一些防偽功能的加強那是不是要用防偽貼紙這個部分是不是讓我們一起綜合來考量必須要盡快的相關的作為防偽功能有提升以上好 謝謝李委員接下來有請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4418.069,"end":4424.7,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長、公平交易委員會李竺偉、勞動部的陳次長"},{"start":4437.196,"end":4466.556,"text":"好 三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然 因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便"},{"start":4467.376,"end":4479.786,"text":"但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法"},{"start":4488.533,"end":4514.451,"text":"就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委"},{"start":4516.132,"end":4527.342,"text":"謝偉 基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相合資好 如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷"},{"start":4529.54,"end":4551.595,"text":"如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們要防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位它有沒有壟斷嘛它壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們"},{"start":4558.42,"end":4574.595,"text":"這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好 那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好 謝謝主委 來我們陳次長"},{"start":4580.02,"end":4594.369,"text":"有關於那個市場經濟當然獨佔、寡佔、壟斷這部分是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重的是勞工的權益保護那如果他事業單位的主體有獨佔、壟斷、聯合壟斷或者是寡佔的情況他對於從業人員的"},{"start":4598.832,"end":4624.358,"text":"一家能力或者是選擇的工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上面才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展好 謝謝陳智我說實在的"},{"start":4629.206,"end":4642.802,"text":"壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存"},{"start":4643.823,"end":4671.492,"text":"但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊 講得這麼快我北五選擇就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席"},{"start":4672.552,"end":4693.948,"text":"跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒"},{"start":4694.628,"end":4710.401,"text":"我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者"},{"start":4712.262,"end":4728.889,"text":"競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併"},{"start":4731.07,"end":4759.568,"text":"抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平"},{"start":4760.589,"end":4784.774,"text":"委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住"},{"start":4786.414,"end":4808.382,"text":"這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長"},{"start":4812.659,"end":4821.292,"text":"我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、昭緯也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決"},{"start":4828.563,"end":4836.189,"text":"並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔"},{"start":4850.12,"end":4864.628,"text":"他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的"},{"start":4866.189,"end":4892.832,"text":"他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以"},{"start":4893.553,"end":4910.729,"text":"彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題"},{"start":4912.731,"end":4940.42,"text":"要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過於可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4945.253,"end":4964.146,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請林沛翔委員發言謝謝主席 有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳公路局局長"},{"start":4974.737,"end":4992.549,"text":"部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的"},{"start":4999.212,"end":5018.15,"text":"跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對 今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓"},{"start":5018.911,"end":5044.925,"text":"就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%"},{"start":5046.446,"end":5069.941,"text":"這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這邊報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理"},{"start":5070.481,"end":5086.766,"text":"我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續整理那個缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個比如這個勞動的這個基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重"},{"start":5087.746,"end":5100.721,"text":"全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不及急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這裡都有點"},{"start":5102.363,"end":5104.304,"text":"這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍僑生還是外籍員工進來"},{"start":5119.87,"end":5144.373,"text":"倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個協調會有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿"},{"start":5145.334,"end":5172.259,"text":"這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚那我常講誤妄誤重也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入職懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總局這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞"},{"start":5172.939,"end":5178.305,"text":"好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的勞動部的陳次長對"},{"start":5189.878,"end":5207.279,"text":"委員好部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷"},{"start":5207.739,"end":5222.866,"text":"那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說整個運費的部分是"},{"start":5224.267,"end":5246.448,"text":"而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公聽會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過應該還沒開過吧"},{"start":5248.37,"end":5264.886,"text":"公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表"},{"start":5265.086,"end":5286.833,"text":"大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明"},{"start":5287.753,"end":5313.779,"text":"剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調整"},{"start":5314.659,"end":5329.852,"text":"我抽來他們跟我來解釋之後我聽得懂所謂樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情"},{"start":5329.972,"end":5357.183,"text":"報告委員我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好 謝謝 謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好 李主委部長謝謝再接下來再接下來跟部長比較沒有說那個市長還是要留著不好意思"},{"start":5357.803,"end":5384.924,"text":"委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎"},{"start":5387.466,"end":5404.125,"text":"我只是問你有沒有認同這個事情對於獨佔、壟斷的行為在競爭法都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到Uber Eats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是戰略的時候"},{"start":5406.087,"end":5422.112,"text":"我們就覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段"},{"start":5422.792,"end":5434.796,"text":"現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎?我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明"},{"start":5436.596,"end":5459.683,"text":"我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台"},{"start":5460.143,"end":5484.474,"text":"變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務"},{"start":5485.094,"end":5504.879,"text":"所以說 請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生嗎結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來說現在部長下來我為什麼直接說藥工廳會"},{"start":5508.22,"end":5524.939,"text":"因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能"},{"start":5525.319,"end":5553.33,"text":"有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人受傷害只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造一個出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握"},{"start":5553.49,"end":5573.116,"text":"我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是叫一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法"},{"start":5573.456,"end":5598.805,"text":"但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個end user所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送委員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好 謝謝好 謝謝林佩祥委員接下來有請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5605.66,"end":5629.177,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長部長今天跟你來討論一下就是我們很多人關心的現在一些大車的駕駛短缺人力的問題"},{"start":5631.543,"end":5657.581,"text":"根據交通部的數字其實我掌握到的數字是這樣就是我們的市區客運因為駕駛短少少了15%的班次乘客人數就少了21%因為班次少載的人就少這是市區客運公路客運就像高速公路那種公路客運更嚴重它少了36%的班次"},{"start":5660.191,"end":5686.97,"text":"少了40%的乘客人數以前公路客運很便捷最高峰我記得好像15分鐘就一班一個小時可能三班、四班現在有的比較慘的一個小時剩一班你越不方便很多人就越不願意去搭乘當然也有市場競爭的問題比如鐵路、高鐵的競爭問題但是到底少了多少職業駕駛"},{"start":5689.865,"end":5698.827,"text":"根據你們交通部的統計公路少了772位市區少了1443位總共少了2215位大貨車貨櫃車駕駛嚴重短缺甚至是我們載人的客運公車這其實都影響到國家的競爭力你們說要補助貨運業相關行業去聘請駕駛"},{"start":5719.418,"end":5739.402,"text":"報酬幾檔啊?從108年開始有沒有效?108辦了一次然後之後是111年9月開始到現在我數字給你看你月補助一萬一千多人你聽到意思嗎?過程有引進了三千多人但是流失的我來提一個你們可以當參考"},{"start":5743.462,"end":5754.048,"text":"我認為啊 也許可以速度的再提高 就延長既有的職業駕駛 那種大車職業駕駛 退休的年齡啊計程車啊 我們從65歲 以前載客人車載到65歲 演練到68歲 現在計程車可以開到70歲你看日本 有些銀髮駕駛 開得很好"},{"start":5770.063,"end":5791.141,"text":"對不對那職業的這種大車駕駛啊你也許可以比照考慮啦你只要第一個這個駕駛他沒有重大肇事的前科對不對第二個身體健康你當然你可以要求68歲他現在可以開到68歲嘛對不對他可以開到70歲如果68歲過你本來要提供一些嘛你的那個認知體檢嘛"},{"start":5797.099,"end":5824.554,"text":"是不是這樣子?第三,你限制他的工作時數就是說他不能回家啦對不對?他台南開到台中嘛你只要再多一些配套措施我跟你講,現在有些人啦七十歲了身體比我還好啦是不是這樣?這樣最快啦而且他開了一輩子的車啦他跑的路線他也熟啦車輛他也熟啦"},{"start":5826.092,"end":5844.402,"text":"如果他有意願他想要再延長就業那我們就配套給他嘛你辦理身體檢查一次我查看你有沒有重大肇事前科第三你不能跑一天不能開超過8小時因為這樣業者很快他熟練的員工駕駛他可以留下來那你們不做啦只要要補助他就請不上年人你知道嗎"},{"start":5851.653,"end":5859.813,"text":"那現在因為職業教職現在各行各業都缺人啦不是只有職業教職缺人啦所以大家都在搶人"},{"start":5863.065,"end":5888.372,"text":"你當然相對工作條件環境啦這個告訴就開始運用了那部長有意見嗎報告委員隨著國人的年紀的延長我們的壽命一直在延長所以這個議題未來一定會一直討論到啦大家的工作的年紀大概也會往後延你應該就跟業者座談嘛業者也提出這樣的一個需求嘛那我再請教工種啦這個部分我們之前開放到68歲已經有1300多人"},{"start":5890.533,"end":5909.11,"text":"對阿那您剛建議的那幾項剛好現在我們針對到68歲也大概都是這樣做那您的建議很好如果延到70歲是不是再更加嚴一點好健康對所以我要請教請教工種嘛你計程車從68延長到70有沒有造成什麼樣的重大不良"},{"start":5910.19,"end":5936.816,"text":"各位報告還是開得很好啊對 也是一步一步啦就像委員說的就是說它逐步延長以後它可能有一些配套的措施有一些資格條件或者是限制的營業的一些條件部長我覺得這樣可能比較快可以解決這個問題可以試試看啦這個是蠻具體的應該研究的方向否則啦因為有些價值確實如果有問題現在的業者也不敢把價值淘汰啦"},{"start":5938.217,"end":5960.372,"text":"他欠沒人啦,這個架樹就失管賣啦,吃分補兵啦,開車常這樣有的沒的有人投書幹嘛,他不敢換他啦,我就欠沒人,我把工錢換掉了那就容易造成很大的問題啦,你知道政府花了很多錢在處理大車的行車安全肇事件數啦,死傷人數啦,每年都增加啦部長你看到我在交通委員會這幾年"},{"start":5964.946,"end":5974.274,"text":"政府開多少百億改善耗資、危險路口、危險道路、大車、視野輔助系統開多少錢你知道嗎?造勢建築啊,等於就整個啊每一年大車啦,弄死人啦,受傷的人啦逐年攀升,你看那個數字可不可怕啦去年已經多少人了?去年"},{"start":5990.41,"end":5997.114,"text":"去年已經有一萬三千六百個人因為大車的造勢事故而造成死傷這有一部分當然是教書的部分有一部分就是政府該做的不要耗資危險入口的設計所以你們要把這個納入你們的施政目標"},{"start":6012.884,"end":6040.522,"text":"中央跟地方花了幾百億只要有相關交通安全的預算沒有人不支持的你換了什麼部長你的意見看一下這個部分其實我覺得從勞工的補充面來思考大型車輛它的造勢的部分看可不可以有所控制這個部分其實各方面都在努力工程面也好教育面也好監理面也好都在努力但是勞工的問題確實是應該要解決"},{"start":6042.624,"end":6045.746,"text":"市區公車有那種定期訓練,他每年都要回來訓練,還有職權講習訓練,這個效果好不好?"},{"start":6059.299,"end":6085.925,"text":"這個效果應該是應該是有的還是回來後面說說大家回來打瞌睡看個電影對沒有就是說有效啦有效有效有效因為會對於事故的比如說防範或是有一些法規的最新修正都會來做那個訓導部長部長他們說說有好嗎如果之前講是他每年定期訓練有效我說的是營業大課市區的大課車啦那你大車為什麼不用"},{"start":6087.603,"end":6088.563,"text":"大貨車會不會用視野輔助系統 我也不曉得他那個輪差死角"},{"start":6104.387,"end":6121.555,"text":"還有那個他在駕駛上一些該注意的事項還有重大事故可以引為教訓的案例、講習你想要沒有?我們這些迴訊應該是要逐步擴大現在只有客車的部分很多年了啊有人在講的說其他的大車對阿我問問阿應該是要有這個要繼續擴大"},{"start":6126.588,"end":6151.27,"text":"對啊 昨天你跟我說沒有 我就不用再問了 你跟我說有效嗎沒有啦 要持續要有效 你想要大聲嗎對 就是持續就是說來做這個對象我們再持續擴充 然後一些因為肇事事件最多的 死傷人數最多的 你不去處理他們為什麼不必接受這些訓練 如果這些訓練有效另外 我要請你們要注意這些訓練真的有效嗎"},{"start":6153.697,"end":6180.226,"text":"真的去修分料對於行車安全有沒有提升有幫助嗎?我認為你們的課程訓練你們這些算是大官啦你也要給他了解一下看這個有沒有啦要讓他更有效因為還有一個很奇怪的現象部長你知道嗎?我們現在是不是欠架數?對那大車啦越買越多啦大車掛牌數字越來越多耶我想奇怪你的車就沒有人開的時候怎麼掛牌的車越來越多"},{"start":6183.769,"end":6190.394,"text":"你出去看喔,大貨車大貨車108年全國16萬5千部,現在已經到17萬6千部了喔?多少多少啊?到底什麼原因?我在猜喔是不是車不可以去用吊牌的我這裡,我因為沒有時間,我再跟你們提醒一點啦齁我希望大家要去檢討一個你罰人再罰車除了獨駕、九駕啦你把車牌吊了啦除了喔"},{"start":6214.059,"end":6243.194,"text":"你罰人那有沒有必要一定要罰車啦你講他廢車就是說他現在計點計了啊手機計點了你現在把大車撬白板那營業大貨車這是他的課程你吃飯的啊是不是這樣或者是有些一般人他車子可能是他生活必須他要生意上班啦他要帶孩子啦帶出來死大人啊他如果不對你就把他換嘛你把他撬白板他就不會開車啦"},{"start":6244.918,"end":6253.681,"text":"車子會自己超速嗎?車子會自己亂跑嗎?那是人的問題吧?對,但是你除非很特殊的,像是獨駕啦,稀獨駕駛,或是說酒駕,那你車子白了,白了沒關係啦否則啊,你幹嘛,你是紅髮人,還是紅髮車?那有遺罪,遺罪的量罷了車子會自己超速嗎?那都人的不對嘛"},{"start":6267.779,"end":6269.36,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝林委員接下來有請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":6299.638,"end":6303.48,"text":"謝謝主席我們請局長跟公路局長陳局長那司長也一起來公共運輸林司長謝謝部長剛才林軍憲委員提到的這個"},{"start":6320.552,"end":6336.665,"text":"法人跟法車這個部分我希望說交通部真的是可以有一個再演繹一下真的是民運相當多進度要不要請司長跟您報告大概什麼時候會有跟這部分跟我們報告一下"},{"start":6338.446,"end":6364.663,"text":"針對營業車輛的一個部分的話如果是駕駛人的違規行為比如說危險駕駛而導致要調購車牌的這個部分那現在在裁罰的部分已經有做處理只要公司對於這個駕駛人的一個訓練跟管理有善盡安全的管理的一個責任那這個責任的部分的話就包括公司有定期舉辦教育訓練等的部分的話這個部分對公司的車輛就不會再做處罰現在已經在裁罰這個部分已經有建立這樣子的機制"},{"start":6365.163,"end":6384.755,"text":"OK 這個什麼時候會公布跟委員報告一下這個交通部的這個函式都已經下去了然後各個這個財閥機構也都是這樣子辦理OK 好 謝謝那剛林委員也提到那個死亡率我們看一下臺灣跟日本我們跟其他國家做一下比較"},{"start":6387.409,"end":6399.998,"text":"日本就是去年的日本他們人口數比我們台灣多五六倍啦他們的死亡人數是兩千六我們台灣的死亡人數是三零二三"},{"start":6401.138,"end":6425.445,"text":"你可以看到這樣子的差距那韓國也是一樣他們人口數我們的兩倍那死亡數也比我們低所以我今天希望說提供一個概念就是說之前的部長我都有質詢過但是交通部好像都還沒動那我想跟部長再講一次也希望說我們的司長跟局長可以做一下不同的觀念的思考那以前我們習慣就是"},{"start":6427.105,"end":6451.304,"text":"道路安全、交通安全基本法等等的事實上我們對交通安全教育真的是做得比較少那也許交通部會認為說這個是交通部的業務還是交通部的業務事實上我再請教市長或部長、局長日本的小孩子過馬路會舉手你知道嗎有看過"},{"start":6452.608,"end":6476.309,"text":"他們是幾乎每個小朋友只要過馬路就舉手為什麼?因為小朋友小嘛他們習慣訓練就是過馬路就舉手這就是從小做起所以交通安全教育的重要性之前我也跟小慧、山漢辦過公聽會那也質詢過但是現在看起來是沒有什麼具體的成果"},{"start":6477.407,"end":6503.694,"text":"所以我想先給三位一個觀念然後就是說這個交通安全教育車這個其實當然都是交通部在主政的交通部可能也沒做這些東西啦那你可以看到他們選的教育車一年都會到校一次這是強迫你每一年你要到校一次然後你去訓練孩子不同的觀念"},{"start":6505.318,"end":6531.884,"text":"那從幼稚園每一年一次一小時國小生他訓練怎麼用步行過馬路國中生訓練騎腳踏車還要注意什麼叫做安全高中生也先滿18歲騎機車了他的教育安全所以你可以看到這個日本大概我們再看前一頁這個日本其實在大概20年前他的死亡人數大概1萬6千人"},{"start":6534.09,"end":6562.508,"text":"你看這20年來他就是長期走遠他才可以這樣子去降低死亡率所以當然現在交通部所做的不管是大車的就是靠要轉向的警示啦或者是他任何的死角的警示等等的這些都是必要但是另外一個觀念交通部一直還沒有開啟這個觀念就是從教育做起所以我們再來看那個行動博物館"},{"start":6563.976,"end":6590.897,"text":"事實上現在那個歷史博物館已經都有行動博物館專車到全台巡迴展演那這個觀念我也諮詢過現在的河岸會以前的園人會他們現在已經變成說每一年他會辦一個園整人科技的科普展那氣象署現在他們也懂得說我到校服務所以這個巡迴專車其實是一個概念"},{"start":6592.302,"end":6615.083,"text":"那交通部是不是可以開始去做這個思考從小學從幼稚園做起根本去改變孩子的觀念我想說我們經過兩年後是不是看到我們的國小幼稚園學生過馬路都會舉手這有沒有差別有差別啊你有些車子的視角不一樣那是太矮了嘛你多了一個高度至少看得到嘛"},{"start":6616.059,"end":6625.821,"text":"那這個是很簡單的動作但是你要做到全台灣都能做就沒有那麼容易那當然他山之石可以工作好的我們就學嘛"},{"start":6627.028,"end":6651.996,"text":"我覺得這個是不是部長可以用一下心了好 報告委員如果台灣人的這個交通上面的觀念可以跟日本的教育一樣這麼徹底的話我相信台灣的交通的狀況會好非常多啦對所以我到了交通部之後也一直拜託我們裡面的同仁針對這個所謂的交通安全的教育的推廣的部分要多花點心思甚至要多花一些預算是做一些有效的"},{"start":6652.796,"end":6654.537,"text":"所以是不是可以開始做了?因為現在我還沒看到交通部在做"},{"start":6669.782,"end":6697.409,"text":"其實每一年都有很多的交通安全教育的宣導費用有但是都撥到地方政府去由地方政府下去做那或許現在大家看到比較沒有具體的成果那我們未來會拿到交通部來努力來做就是我們總是特別重視交通的就是我們交通部嘛那安全當然是我們最重要的嘛那另外還有交通博物館齁我們先看那個台灣有個兒童教育博物館齁"},{"start":6699.042,"end":6726.997,"text":"以前曾經有過啦台灣那一張以前台灣兒童交通教育博物館以前曾經有過1992年的時候在台北市那現在已經沒有了在2008年的時候轉成客家園區當然它有各族群有不同的需要但是我們是不是有機會交通部來規劃一個兒童交通安全博物館現在全國只剩下一個地方叫做麗寶"},{"start":6728.362,"end":6754.765,"text":"那個地方是民間自己在經營的是 那個我去過你去過嘛所以這個兒童交通博物館事實上你可以看到世界各大國都有這種交通博物館我們左邊這個是美國就是左上角跟中間這個圖這個是美國的交通博物館然後底下那個是英國倫敦的交通博物館這些圖片都讓部長再參考一下"},{"start":6755.606,"end":6784.188,"text":"然後我們再看回來那個各國交通博物館都是由中央在主導日本的其餘的鐵道博物館是左邊這個圖左下方是瑞士的交通博物館那下面的左邊的是英國倫敦再來最右下角的是德國德勒斯登皇宮它有好幾個不同的主題其中一個主題是交通博物館所以我們讓那個部長知道一下交通博物館事實上它的重要性"},{"start":6785.089,"end":6812.878,"text":"然後再來看一下山濱日本山濱他們這個兒童交通公園目前台灣有兩座一個在我們鳳山新墻公園那這個也是當時交通部有補助200萬也謝謝交通部那又下腳這個是萬華青年公園所以你可以看到這個我們的交通公園跟兒童交通公園跟日本的兒童交通公園其實有一些差距這個他們都是實地實況去模擬的"},{"start":6814.939,"end":6844.071,"text":"改天有機會再放一下蠟筆小鮮的那個片子那個交通交易給部長參考那個其實很有趣他們就是從這樣子從小就這樣做起要從小做起所以最後有一個希望就是說我們高雄有一塊高雄機場那這一塊地呢綠色的這些部分呢是讓市府現在也在規劃交通公園或親子公園那日本三品他們小朋友很多人學騎腳踏車是去那個地方學"},{"start":6844.966,"end":6865.639,"text":"像你在都市裡面,台北人很多人不會騎腳踏車,不知道要怎麼做交通公園其實又安全,所以這個是一個好的概念所以市府現在已經有考慮在做這個交通公園、親子公園等等在我們這一塊高雄機場那另外呢,部長有看到那個左上方六連棟那裡"},{"start":6867.082,"end":6891.879,"text":"首先左上方六連棟那個現在是本來是我們台鐵的地現在要保留啦現在要保留那保留的話我們裡面要怎麼配置呢剛才那麼多的交通那個交通博物館的圖有讓部長看你可以看我們這一塊這個那個上方這些都是那個透空的而且那個挑高的所以這個地方你看起來跟那個美國"},{"start":6893.427,"end":6901.835,"text":"跟那個美國那一張圖你看這一張中間這個美國上面的那個是不是鏤空的那是不是挑高的是不是吊滿了飛機"},{"start":6904.201,"end":6932.21,"text":"所以其實類似這樣子的概念如果說在高雄機場這一塊地這是台鐵跟市府現在都市計畫變更應該我們再鋪尋它進度快一點應該快要通過了這個通過之後是不是有機會設兒童交通博物館有機會設兒童交通公園這個交通部用一點心事實上日本三病這個不是只有台灣人去不是只有日本人去很多觀光客去都會去參觀"},{"start":6933.49,"end":6961.793,"text":"都會去那邊尤其帶小朋友的那邊還可以提供腳踏車免費的所以這樣子一個概念交通公園、交通安全博物館如果在高雄機場這一塊區域可以實現那未來其實包括全台灣的人或是各國的觀光客都有可能會來這個地方看一看我們台灣的規劃小朋友很喜歡去所以尤其是觀光客有帶小朋友來的他都很喜歡去"},{"start":6963.174,"end":6984.524,"text":"是不是請那個部長跟局長、市長那當然這個跟台鐵有關那這一塊是不是有機會這樣子做一個那包括我們的巡迴車巡迴車一起去做思考跟我們台灣的交通教育正式開始做這樣好不好好希望那個交通部一起努力這相當好建議謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":6990.652,"end":7000.115,"text":"好 謝謝許委員先做一下宣告待會到我本人魯明哲委員發言完畢休息10分鐘接下來有請廖軒翔委員發言好 謝謝昭偉麻煩邀請我們的陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":7021.583,"end":7044.587,"text":"部長 早安今天有討論到我們公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺的問題其實我在今年的上半年也有在交委會有質詢一個議題那時候你還不在那我就是跟交通部建議應該要推動高速公路的自動駕駛的一個系統那"},{"start":7050.011,"end":7063.034,"text":"不曉得如果說部長聽到這樣的建議你認為推動高速公路或者是快速道路的一個自駕的貨車的這個開放啦就是開放他們這樣子的運行對我們的交通部有哪些好處"},{"start":7064.332,"end":7086.106,"text":"第一個當然是勞力的部分可以減少第二個如果那個系統是可靠而又可信的話那個安全度或許會比人還高一些但是第三個問題是說目前為止很像台灣還沒有發生過這樣子的系統好處就前面那兩個還有一個當天其實我主要的論述點有兩個第一個就剛剛部長講的"},{"start":7086.886,"end":7114.319,"text":"未來自駕技術一定比人開車還來得安全這是我們可以看 絕對看得到的目標現在不一定但是未來一定是這樣子以及我們可以紓解我們的目前道路擁捨的情形因為我們的高速公路目前塵封了運輸的情況非常的擁捨那可以只要有自駕系統我們可以把自駕的運輸量移到離峰這是可以目前看得到對我們運輸有立即的好處那另外連帶的好處就是我們的這個"},{"start":7115.459,"end":7138.875,"text":"人力短缺的問題可以連帶的來獲得一些紓緩但是在那一次的質詢之後我感覺交通部一直給我搞錯方向好像交通部一直以為我要推動臺灣的自駕系統的一個推進但是我的立場是說應該是我所以說之後交通部一直去找經濟部希望經濟部來主導這件事情"},{"start":7139.275,"end":7165.17,"text":"因為自駕確實是我們經濟部在推的但是我為什麼會來質詢我們交通部因為現在是我們交通部遇到的問題我們交通部遇到了道路容量不夠的問題我們交通部遇到了可能這個事故我們希望它降低的一個問題第三個我們交通部遇到了人力短缺的問題這都是我們交通部遇到的問題應該是我們遇到問題的單位去尋求其他可以來幫我們解決問題的單位一起找他來幫忙"},{"start":7168.092,"end":7187.632,"text":"而不是把我在這邊詢問的問題推給經濟部所以說我希望說我們的交通部在未來是不是能夠明確的推出有關於我們大貨車、自駕的一個未來的一個明確的政治的一個政策的一個方針跟目標"},{"start":7188.775,"end":7210.723,"text":"報告委員在大客車的部分它的自駕的發展的部分其實交通部是有參與的不是只有經濟部那當然經濟部為主因為這是產業面的部分是經濟部為主但是交通部的部分在客車的部分其實是有加入一些計畫的那對於貨車的部分可能我們還沒有因為對交通部來講委員說的沒有錯交通部最大的問題"},{"start":7212.083,"end":7212.964,"text":"載貨跟載人哪一個比較麻煩?哪一個難度比較高?"},{"start":7229.532,"end":7249.357,"text":"應該是載人比較高啦載人的難度比較高啊對不對你載人不是只有從A點到B點啦你載人會有車上會有新操的問題你會有緊急的醫療的問題你要再去其他地方啊對不對人就是會產生講直接一點人會產生額外的其他的麻煩的問題或不會甚至可能發生事故的時候"},{"start":7251.06,"end":7272.113,"text":"如果說是載客的話那會是非常嚴重的一個社會事件如果是載貨而已的話那是會是一個很單純的財損問題而已所以說我當初我不知道為什麼當初交通部跟經濟部在討論這件事情的時候會從自駕公車開始那包括自駕公車就是考量到公共運輸對那考量到自駕公車他可能他沒有辦法"},{"start":7272.833,"end":7287.113,"text":"他的規模性可能沒有辦法放大因為就算今天你在特定的點淡水那一邊新市鎮有試辦難不成你淡水試辦成功的點你有辦法外擴到中和永和嗎板橋嗎你不可能外擴嘛你試辦點結束之後"},{"start":7288.775,"end":7316.738,"text":"就是你整個計畫結束了你很難去擴張到其他地方但是貨運不是貨運就是道路系統、高速公路系統、快速道路系統你只要能夠成功你在所有的點都能夠試成功那加上我們的高速公路跟我們的快速道路相對起來是封閉的高速公路是絕對是最安全的道路系統只有汽車快速道路可能還會有重型計車大型的重機所以說高速公路相對起來是最安全"},{"start":7318.394,"end":7346.253,"text":"對於實驗者來說他是一個最好去試驗的一個沙盒的場域當然對高速公路局來說他當然不希望嘛因為當高速公路可能發生事故的時候對他來說車速比較快等等每個單位有不同的考慮的因素但是我在看到這份報告的時候我會認為說我們好像就是都在提一些過去比較傳統的一些解決的方針我們沒有利用現在世界科技的一個發展利用自駕的技術來解決我們現在面對的問題"},{"start":7348.454,"end":7367.75,"text":"那不曉得我們部長經過我們這樣子的討論那你對於未來不管是對於我們駕駛短缺啊我們當然駕駛的平間制度絕對最重要的就是安全嘛對不對那對於這樣子的一個自駕技術部長未來你自己的觀念的看法跟未來可能會怎麼引領交通部來跟這個世界潮流來做一個間接"},{"start":7368.51,"end":7390.422,"text":"我覺得委員你的建議很好而且很具體就是說朝自駕的方向大概是人類的趨勢這必然要做各國都在努力當中雖然沒有做到很具體而且非常可靠的系統還沒出來但台灣在這個部分也很努力所以才會有這個機場T3的那個外面的營運的部分是希望是用自駕系統"},{"start":7390.982,"end":7412.931,"text":"那這個部分其實也是我們希望投入一些資源能夠下去做研發跟研究那這個部分當然委員您所提供的就是針對貨運的部分我們回去來研議看看看有沒有可能貨運會不會相對簡單一些那國道會不會更相對簡單一些或許過去沒有聚焦在討論到這一塊只有針對客運的部分那未來我們針對貨運的部分我們另外再做討論"},{"start":7413.951,"end":7424.859,"text":"副部長持一個開放的態度然後定確明確的方針跟目標我們不一定要在幾年前但是這是我們交通部未來一定要做一定要引入的一個科技上一次為什麼會在這邊質詢是因為我們的經濟部已經把這樣的技術"},{"start":7429.753,"end":7452.923,"text":"這個行銷到、支援到澳洲去澳洲用我們台灣經濟部的一個輔導的一個技術在澳洲的高速公路來做這件事情結果我們自己的交通部沒有在推廣這件事情那包括日本、包括美國他們都已經在做這件事情了都已經在做這件事情我們的交通部已經起步比別人慢了"},{"start":7453.263,"end":7473.331,"text":"所以我就希望說在這件事情我們就希望能夠部長持一個開放的態度明確的方針我們自己也有科技師嘛對不對用科技師來協助我們的公務局那協助我們的高速公務局因為包括我知道公務局也有沙盒實驗嘛因為之前在台六一可能發生一個擦撞"},{"start":7474.031,"end":7499.446,"text":"對不對 你在高速公路局會擦撞到腳踏車嗎不會嘛 就是因為你在平面道路如果說你在快速道路你會擦撞到腳踏車嗎不會啊 你就是在平面道你才會你跟摩托車跟其他的交通的那個交織的情況一定會更為的風險更為增加嘛 好不好那另外還有提一點啊 就是有關我們的這個大客車啦我們過去在大客車的一些制度上面我們常常都是只有"},{"start":7500.711,"end":7519.989,"text":"棒子而已我們沒有一個羅波假設說我們可能你違規怎麼樣的情況那你可能會被吊扣執照我們大概現行的制度都是這樣子而已但是我們沒有針對他說法給相對給他一個好的一個獎勵給他在可能在道路通行上面比較好的一個"},{"start":7521.25,"end":7538.324,"text":"行駛的一個條件我其實之前有具體提過一個建議啦我們現在的雪山隧道其實禁止大貨車通行的那當然裡面有一些消防的考量那還有其他考量其實我都跟幕僚單位提過啦我提出的問題我幕僚單位提出的問題也都沒辦法明確的回應我也不敢再來啦"},{"start":7539.738,"end":7562.523,"text":"但是我們現在台二線每天走瑞芳到貢寮芙蓉貢寮到宜蘭每天大貨車就是繞那麼一大段繞那麼一大段然後每年發生的事故都那麼多一部分走那麼大段駕駛會疲勞另外一個部分道路條件不是那麼好那我們有沒有可能考慮讓那些優良的駕駛我們可以說3年內5年內你沒有發生過"},{"start":7567.444,"end":7574.67,"text":"我們可以訂定一些違規的項目你只要符合這些違規項目我可以試著讓你在離峰的時間去走國五這樣的一個方案我覺得有時候我們也可以試著在其他我這個只是舉一個例子而已我們在針對大客車的駕駛管制方面有時候或許是可以用一些獎勵的措施鼓勵他們平常就要守法那你平常只要守法不違規那我可能"},{"start":7596.266,"end":7604.709,"text":"我可以相信你這個架勢是可以去做我們平常去限制的一些事情好不好 那以上部長謝謝 明天考慮一下 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 現在為我們麻煩盧明哲召委"},{"start":7622.947,"end":7628.314,"text":"好的,謝謝主席,有請我們交通部陳部長、公路局陳局長"},{"start":7634.52,"end":7657.156,"text":"好 這個部長跟局長其實今天我要談的一個議題因為其實我上次有講過這個外送平台那今天主要的一個焦點在我們大車 大車系列因為不光是我們市區的公車、遊覽車甚至公路客運、國道客運等等的我想先講載人的載人這些大型的客運"},{"start":7658.197,"end":7674.579,"text":"那我現在剛剛在想真的像時代的眼淚喔因為我在將近二十幾歲的二十五六歲的時候開過計程車所以我本身也是業者我開過計程車開了兩三年那那時候我有一個夢你知道嗎是什麼夢因為我看到有一些我的前輩他買一台遊覽車"},{"start":7676.061,"end":7699.44,"text":"你知道新興的遊覽車他個人的然後每天出去我就覺得有一度那是我人生重要的目標真的哇一台大的遊覽車多驕傲那隨著這個不管是車種的變更、駕照的難易度從小車、大車、載貨、載人就覺得我要有一天達到這樣的一個能力"},{"start":7700.601,"end":7728.856,"text":"可是曾幾何時現在看起來真的大車大不易已經產生時代結構性的變化真是沒辦法剛剛很多委員適當已經說過了大概情況就是這樣我自己再把它像疫情在前兩三年的數字去撈一撈其實確實在過去一個平穩的以公務客運來說它的搭乘的人次一年度有一千多萬人次"},{"start":7729.816,"end":7745.081,"text":"結果到了113年目前的統計大概減少了非常多報章雜誌也有出來你的專案報告也有寫班次就減少了很多事實上這互為因果互為因果"},{"start":7746.101,"end":7763.848,"text":"那車輛數、路線數都變化很大其實你知道我在擔心什麼這時代的眼淚就這樣嗎會不會要到一種結構性變化要到什麼地步你知道嗎 因為它的功能在很多我們的軌道型的交通到不了"},{"start":7764.668,"end":7779.594,"text":"或者我們政府補助的一些公車它到不了的它很多就是偏鄉它有這樣的一個需求過去能夠撐得住現在撐不住了所以很多人回家路如果再持續減少真的會出問題啊那我也自己也想過啦"},{"start":7781.24,"end":7802.661,"text":"我們旅客坐公共客運的人越來越少當然有幾個原因第一個我們班次就少了我們路線數就少了對不對 我就是要坐新竹這一班你沒有了我不可能去坐台北的那就自然因為隨著我的班次少了車輛少了這個是一定就跟著減少的第二個呢"},{"start":7803.658,"end":7818.876,"text":"是因為交通很多各線軌道出來了很多的方便的不管是高鐵、台鐵、約會票、T-pass很多原因都會吸引客戶可能去採用其他原本他沒有的方式"},{"start":7819.617,"end":7847.05,"text":"第三個呢因為公路客運他比較會堵車交通狀況難料有時候不是你技術好別人技術不好交通情況不好你都沒有辦法準點到達所以現在手時準時尤其上下班這也是很多人要改搭更準點的交通工序的疑慮最後一個就牽涉到他本身的服務品質如果幾次不好上公路客運被服務的經驗自然會流失"},{"start":7848.05,"end":7866.475,"text":"如果只是旅客流失的話因為在這個產業有三類人第一個是旅客第二個是駕駛員這個產業才會動但最重要誰買車業者其實我們覺得我們最不希望看到的三件事快要全部發生了旅客不見了"},{"start":7871.589,"end":7889.29,"text":"駕駛不見了駕駛也不見了其實駕駛不見了剛剛好幾位委員特別有說其中一個重點說能不能提高他的一個福利啊薪資啊讓一些誘因增加誘因讓他們回來包括勞動部啊也希望能夠改善他們的一個環境啊"},{"start":7890.612,"end":7900.124,"text":"可是除了這個之外我聽到了很多很多的大車的駕駛其實他更擔心的是風險"},{"start":7902.287,"end":7929.181,"text":"他更承擔了很大很大的壓力我覺得過去網路沒有這麼強的時代你知道嗎發生一件事就一群人知道現在發生一件事情就全世界知道了所以他們壓力是非常非常大而且是車內車外的壓力車外要看清楚絕對不能發生什麼事車內有這麼多的客戶一上來大車坐了三四十個人所以我想部長"},{"start":7930.595,"end":7935.2,"text":"你對於這整個大車這個產業李鎂不見了駕駛不見了你有什麼樣的看法他的停損點或你覺得說你們在努力讓這個事情不要再持續惡化你們的想法是什麼"},{"start":7947.878,"end":7975.085,"text":"我想對交通部的立場來講客運的維持是必然必須要的所以我們現在有很多的政策包含幸福巴士希望能夠有偏鄉的這些服務都是透過客運的方式因為我們很清楚知道軌道很便利、很安全、很可靠但不可能到每一個地方所以客運的維持相當重要我們最近看到這些年來的客運的發展確實也相當優新所以我看交通部現在有用很大量的補貼跟補助的方案"},{"start":7975.765,"end":8003.132,"text":"不管是在運費上面或者是在勞動的這個條件上面就是勞工的部分我們盡量在努力因為委員剛剛講的那三項一直在減少我們最怕業者也減少這個部分我們很不希望發生所以這個部分交通部應該也會再繼續加大力道來協助業者讓他能夠繼續營運下去因為這個對所有的民眾尤其是相對偏鄉的地方行的交通的這個便利性很重要"},{"start":8004.175,"end":8025.787,"text":"好 大概十幾天前在客運業者有說這個缺工20%其實補大概剛好跟離職的人數就勉勉強強大概就維持在那個檔次他都跑到Uber根本徵不到人其實他說對一半啦也不見得是Uber啦很多的產業都有可能是相對低壓的產業我們再看看"},{"start":8026.857,"end":8056.277,"text":"我們整個運輸啊我們挑了幾類主要大家比較熟、知道的行業別從最簡單的自己騎機車自己開的小貨車如果發生了任何的有壓力的事件就是我一個人單純一點所以從外送、快遞他們就你看快遞業他可能生有貨車他也呈現減少的部分接下來汽車的一個貨運可能比較大的車風險似乎大那計程車尤其到公務客運啊他減少的一個比率啊"},{"start":8057.077,"end":8058.919,"text":"李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範"},{"start":8078.374,"end":8099.059,"text":"多少因為也沒有路線好跑了沒有路線好跑了我們剛剛大概這5年來就我的體驗在桃園本來有很多的學生專車、大車那之前他們很願意坐現在從最多的112線的在學生找上的班車現在剩81減少好像28%跟你們那個車數減幅其實是蠻類似的"},{"start":8105.578,"end":8125.871,"text":"我今天要說了今天對業者我是建議我們很多的一個管制為了他更安全這完全合理的沒什麼好說但是有些不必要的一個壓力或者莫名其妙增加工作的你還嫌他活得很好嗎"},{"start":8127.689,"end":8155.948,"text":"我們講說我們的駕駛要加薪但是我們要一個稍微有利潤的他的業者才有可能完成這件事現在目前這個情況幾乎八成都政府在做你跟叫業者加薪他幾乎說sorry所以就是地方政府配合公務總局你們交通部在扛這一塊但是能夠扛多久呢我講這個的部分業者現在經營的四大困難第一個缺駕駛他真的很痛苦第二個呢"},{"start":8157.691,"end":8173.024,"text":"已經很多的至少中型的以下的基本上沒有利潤如果扣掉政府的補助他早就收收回去了第三個我們比較擔心的法規對安全的部分沒有問題但是有些額外的"},{"start":8174.245,"end":8193.321,"text":"法規的一個衝擊就是我已經這麼難做了你還要我做完功課那我就回家我不幹了包括了你現在的遊覽車的評鑑制度另外一類大車遊覽車的評鑑制度到底合不合你們從評鑑制度你們去看你們現在分類"},{"start":8194.947,"end":8223.441,"text":"優等、佳等、宜等、不劣等聽起來是不入流的感覺因為前面你看那個加數加起來將近900家那有29家不劣等你這個每次公告我都看到公民眾選遊覽車就是考量嘛這個用意是很和善的你知道嗎民眾還沒參觀到保險公司先拿去參觀了"},{"start":8225.267,"end":8240.887,"text":"保險公司先拿去所有不列等的現在狀況是什麼我相信他們工會都跟你說啦你憑這個本來是良法美義的保險公司說不保了第三責任險或者其他額外的險不保了"},{"start":8242.472,"end":8268.56,"text":"可是這個問題很怪耶因為你們現在評的甲等乙等不是一台車耶就是你不列等的一家公司裡面會不會有優等的駕駛會不會有10年開遊覽車不出事的可是我告訴你他也沒辦法保所以我是覺得第一個你們現在遊覽車的評定制度如果這個兩罰美意我可以接受你把美意留下來"},{"start":8269.6,"end":8295.006,"text":"但是造成了負面的效果說你們結果為什麼你們今年就說要停一年等一下因為感覺怪怪的停一年那你停一年不是休息一年明年再炒是要想方設法你們現在想說好吧要把不列等我不知道誰提出來這麼聰明有才智這個人可以用不列等未來改成平等就沒事了"},{"start":8295.902,"end":8321.791,"text":"我的天啊那保險公司不會看啦優等、佳等、宜等那我就找平等啦所以我倒是覺得如果你平健制度是一個淘汰制度這業者說啊因為有些業者真的他就是品質非常差完全不安全你就抓一趴出來抓一家、兩家出來你這平健制度他慢慢不改善他可以淘汰你這樣子真的保障"},{"start":8322.811,"end":8323.111,"text":"負責負責負責"},{"start":8343.343,"end":8366.434,"text":"內部討論優等、佳等、宜等、不入等、不列等通出來不是第一波磨啊磨啊報告寫啦有些公司叫公司小姐寫有些比較正做的公司想要拼業績的委外花個十萬、二十萬拜託別人然後去做做完第一關叫安全紀錄"},{"start":8367.654,"end":8387.395,"text":"第一關安全記錄好恭喜得到夾等了再發函給你恭喜你已經入夾等但是你要繼續申請管理部分的科技管理再提一份報告出來你要這個通過之後你如果不申請你就列一等我的天啊我弄了半天"},{"start":8388.456,"end":8415.575,"text":"我一家公司要到優等的要到優等的要經過兩次的一個評鑑經過你們專家學者我是建議不要這樣搞啦真的不要這樣搞如果你們這麼難判別的話我覺得是你們這個專家學者有問題所以我要拜託各位我做個結論因為業者很多的部分他的壓力真的非常非常大"},{"start":8416.636,"end":8424.584,"text":"找不到時機也沒利潤法規沒有必要的給他衝擊你知道嗎駕駛出去沒有打又實際例子"},{"start":8428.101,"end":8448.613,"text":"右轉沒有打方向燈然後呢 被祭奠 開罰單你知道嗎 這幾天公務組就派人去公司稽查 稽查兩台遊覽車然後呢 駕駛已經不在這家公司了你們那個制度 你聽懂我意思嗎 方向燈是誰打的"},{"start":8449.784,"end":8465.02,"text":"是駕駛吧是駕駛的責任嘛所以你們現在造成這個業者是不是你們真的要去檢討一下你們要管好但是像這樣的增加負擔的這個部分造成有一些你要讓他沒保險"},{"start":8466.241,"end":8492.284,"text":"在路上跑你乾脆叫他退場好了啦你們這種制度我是覺得部長是我是覺得這個評鑑制度要優化好不好這一定要優化那再來就是您在說那個不能保險的部分我們也已經在幫業者解決我們有去跟金管會跟保險局他們去溝通這個部分要協助業者這一定要做的好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝魯明哲、趙偉、謝謝部長那就休息10分鐘"},{"start":8511.865,"end":8513.646,"text":"喂喂夠不夠可以喔喂喂有喔可以喔"},{"start":8670.567,"end":8670.728,"text":"所以車輛數"},{"start":9090.117,"end":9106.931,"text":"好 謝謝 我們繼續開會接下來有請徐富奎委員發言謝主席 我們有請陳部長還有公務局陳局長陳文瑞局長"},{"start":9118.058,"end":9138.954,"text":"部長、局長早我想本席也有很多這個在從事這個長途運輸的一個朋友啦業者的朋友啦那當然從最近這幾年這個整個大環境的這個影響他們其實也是叫苦連天啦不敢哀啦因為他們不是只有考慮他們自己的生計還有養了他們的這個生活啦"},{"start":9142.777,"end":9170.183,"text":"那當然目前大概我們現在聽起來他們面對的很多的問題包含不只是缺工然後還有長途運輸這個所謂一個勞基法的一個規定的問題甚至這個我們司機違規祭典在靠這個車的車是他們的財產他們也是滿腹的委屈甚至這個萬物皆漲他們運費不敢漲為什麼因為怕其他競爭者的銷價競爭之後沒有生意可以做"},{"start":9170.723,"end":9184.309,"text":"所以其實他們一直很想要找一個時間跟我們相關的單位來做一個對話也聽聽他們的滿腹的委屈還有一些政策面的一個檢討那我想部長跟局長這部分是不是有沒有機會能夠讓他們能夠來做一個對話的一個機會"},{"start":9188.412,"end":9211.958,"text":"這個可以啦 我們跟業者之間的這個溝通跟互動我想公路局應該時常在做對 沒有問題 更限的這個運輸工會包括貨運、客運的話其實我們各地區的監理所站都有定期跟他們有做相關的溝通如果說有特別的需要 如果說譬如說要包括他們的全聯會跟公路局來做相關的一個建議的話我想我們都會非常歡迎"},{"start":9212.612,"end":9226.319,"text":"我想當然交通部是站在一個這個整個交通這個安全的一個整體的考量那當然我們許多不一樣的團體都有各自的一個陳情跟一個訴求那也希望我們有機會可以跟大貨車這個運輸公會來做一個對話這個沒問題"},{"start":9228.7,"end":9257.532,"text":"那有幾個問題要就交一下請我們部長跟局長來幫忙那今年7月份我召開一個會刊針對我們墾丁國家公園南灣的一個人行步道這個人行步道已經鋪了20幾年不只現在坑坑洞洞而且它因為缺乏一個排水溝的一個設施只要下雨就會積水那我想南灣是一個國際的觀光景點這問民不可看啦那請教一下部長跟局長"},{"start":9258.392,"end":9284.699,"text":"這部分自從我會刊之後目前有沒有最近的進度什麼時候可以來施工還是我跟委員報告委員會刊之後的話第一個就是說在經費上面沒有問題因為經費上面就是說我們行政院已經有核定一個永續提升人行安全的計畫所以我們經費沒有問題那人行道的設施的施作也沒有問題只是說因為當地南灣是屬於這個墾丁國家公園管理處"},{"start":9285.419,"end":9306.15,"text":"他在9月的時候其實9月23號其實整個他有提到就是說整個周邊南灣的他的公共設施他有做一些檢討那所以就是說我們在會確認就是說肯定國家公民管理處就是說對於這邊屬於我們人行步道他還有沒有其他建議啦如果說他沒有說特別需要我們在協助的部分我們就"},{"start":9306.63,"end":9331.761,"text":"我知道這部分我想請部長幫忙因為就是因為我們發現到這必須要跨部會整合這個整個包含這個墾丁國家公園一些公共設施的問題包含墾丁大街未來要人車分道這些問題都必須要跨部會整合所以我有要求我們的內政部在9月份開了這個會議那具體的一些結論大概都有已經有一些共識那所以未來也希望"},{"start":9332.441,"end":9348.412,"text":"肯定不是只有這個洋傘之亂啊不是也只有一些被這個消費污名化那我覺得公路總局公路局還有我們交通部公共署我們都責無旁貸一起來重新振興我們恆春半島的觀光這點也麻煩部長跟局長我們加快腳步"},{"start":9350.213,"end":9372.855,"text":"對那第二個就是針對猴想每次風災我們就發現一個狀況像這次山坨颱風我們整個省道系統都不是秦島要不然就是支離破碎那當然我知道我們公路局在這個樹種的規劃上面當然有一些的選擇但是我們發現可能這些未來針對所謂的一個"},{"start":9374.436,"end":9389.522,"text":"數學的一個工法還有一個深耕的部分這個樹種的選擇是不是有必要重新檢討過要不然每逢颱風這個樹一倒就影響到整個交通的動線也造成這個壓到車子非常非常危險這部分是不是可以請公眾總局來做一個檢討"},{"start":9390.822,"end":9416.613,"text":"好 報告委員 這個部分我們會來做檢討不過我們這個部分大部分是配合農業部也跟農業部來請教說要種哪一些原生樹種 這是第一個第二個種植的方案 種植的方法怎麼樣才要生根 不生根的話我們這個部分其實都是結合農業部一起在討論不過每次颱風我們就可以檢討一次有哪些路數是容易倒塌的那這個部分我們就來檢討說未來可能就不要用這樣的路數"},{"start":9417.153,"end":9446.513,"text":"因為我們管轄的路段相當的長有時候也造成我們這個開口企業如果沒有馬上去處理確實會造成很多的危險性這部分再麻煩我們部長跟局長的協助那另外針對我們屏東台17線林邊路段有一個鎮安村這個地方我也有去會勘過那因為這部分上下游的整治的部分牽扯到我們所謂的農水署也好還有包含大盤灣管理處這部分我們都已經協調完成但唯一的部分就是"},{"start":9447.213,"end":9473.322,"text":"台17線的下面這個寒凍口徑太小了而且你上面宣洩不及到台17線很容易就造成一個淹水的一個情形這部分是不是請局長這邊可以要求馬上來趕快做處理是 跟委員報告確實就是說因為整個的區域的排水它包括台17的上下游就像委員剛剛所提到的還有涉及到龍水署跟大鵬灣國家那個管理處"},{"start":9474.102,"end":9498.253,"text":"那所以就是說上下游的處理跟配合我們這邊的一個航管的一個擴大它的一個排水量那屬於我們台17線的部分我們會來處理對 另外還有針對我們臨邊交通道下來接到我們台17線系統的時候那邊也有一段地窪的地段也造成容易積水車沒路過啦這部分是請公務局來一併來趕快來做一個排水系統的一個檢討"},{"start":9499.933,"end":9525.086,"text":"沒問題那這個部分我們再找時間趕快來會看一下那另外我想這邊我們也要肯定我們公路局我們在台26線就是我們墾丁、香江灣路段我們打造了一個全國第一個路線的一個廊道那也被譽為一個很有善的一個生態有溫度的一個幸福公園那甚至也是我們這個進入講這個景觀的一個這個大熱門的一個路段"},{"start":9525.706,"end":9541.827,"text":"那除了這個路段之外我們在車程龜山到福安橋這邊也有我們的一些我們的生態團體也有建議可以來做一個生態廊道那麼也是一個很豐富的一個生態資源這部分是不是可以請公務局來協助一下我們一起來努力"},{"start":9543.457,"end":9565.611,"text":"是,各位委員報告就是我們目前屬於自己省道台246的部分我們已經做了,把它抬高那委員所提到的這一個路段是屬於平152線是屬於這個鄉道啦那所以就是說這個公路系統在縣府這邊主管的話其實它有相關的這些的考量的話其實我們會用相關的一個計劃經費來協助他們"},{"start":9567.532,"end":9589.936,"text":"我想因為我們有台26線很好的一個經驗尤其我們整個就是每逢這個尤其暑假期間我們還有志工在那邊互卸管制這真的做得非常非常的好啦那我想未來也希望這個針對路線的安全給予一個最好的一個安全回家的一個路那我想剛剛我們很多的委員也提到所謂的一個外送的一個"},{"start":9599.419,"end":9616.926,"text":"目前是這樣啦之前是因為聯繫要開會的這個過程當中沒有聯繫好所以造成他們一些誤解那我們陳局長也特別去拜會過消基會的董事長那他們對這方面聽完我們的這個希望能夠透明化的原因之後其實他態度上也是相當贊成"},{"start":9618.226,"end":9629.4,"text":"那或許下禮拜三我們會有一個座談會我們已經約好了那消基會也會來參與那外送員的工會也會來參與業者也會來參與我們各方一起來做一個好好的協商跟討論"},{"start":9631.327,"end":9655.768,"text":"我想這個事情也是知識體大了是因為包含我們的政府也好我們的外送的一個業者還有我們的店家、外送員甚至消費者我們如果創造這個五贏的局面我想交通部也要責務旁貸了沒錯尤其這個在不管在每一個環節裡面怎麼樣去檢討這個可能出現的問題怎麼樣去務實地解決問題我想部長請部長這邊是我們先不要做"},{"start":9658.37,"end":9659.471,"text":"謝謝許委員接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":9685.578,"end":9688.402,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳部長、勞動部陳次長"},{"start":9699.924,"end":9708.728,"text":"部長我們看到客運駕駛缺口的問題持續擴大根據公路局統計12年2月缺額1819人到113年5月已經擴大到2215人這個缺額的問題主要集中在市區客運像是市區客運的缺額112年2月是921人"},{"start":9719.873,"end":9736.028,"text":"它的缺額暴增到113年5月的1443人增加了將近56.68%這也顯示出駕駛能力的缺口有不斷惡化的趨勢本期要以桃園為例桃園客運是主要的大眾運輸工具目前的駕駛缺額已經高達208人了"},{"start":9737.909,"end":9748.472,"text":"僅次於臺北的大都會客運228人駕駛不足直接影響到公車班次,讓不少班次被迫取消桃園捷運還在興建中相較之下,臺北的捷運入網相對完整,讓桃園市民困擾駕駛缺工問題,就教部長及常務次長"},{"start":9759.015,"end":9773.281,"text":"客運業者認為駕駛缺的問題主要是三個原因第一個是日少子化再來是大環境對於客運駕駛不友善也造成客運駕駛給他們帶來很大的身心壓力社會的普遍認知都覺得"},{"start":9774.501,"end":9793.505,"text":"開公車、開客運這份工作很辛苦啊那導致這個行業它的吸引力不足部長想請教您這個是不是主要的原因我想這些都是蠻重要的原因啦那另外就是說對於這個勞動條件跟這個工作環境的部分對駕駛員來說當然也是相當的重要"},{"start":9794.581,"end":9811.138,"text":"本席認為如果駕駛區域持續下去會導致班次減少班次減少又會降低民眾的搭乘意願民眾不去搭乘的話又會造成公司的虧損進而再減班會導致會形成一個沒有班次沒有乘客的惡性循環部長、次長您認同嗎"},{"start":9814.201,"end":9825.092,"text":"我蠻認同的啦我也很擔心他走入一個惡性循環的狀態是 那次長這邊就叫次長那個勞動部是我國的勞工就主事我國勞工相關問題面對這樣的問題勞動部有解決的方案嗎"},{"start":9827.748,"end":9855.391,"text":"是跟委員報告就是客運業缺工當然早上歷來在討論就是說是一個長期的趨勢那因為疫情受到很大影響那他有什麼方案我們目前大概幾個做法第一個我們跟交通部一起對於國內人員的價值的培訓也在持續進行當中那他們有相關的專案的方案那第二個部分確實國內的人口結構變化也真的少了人"},{"start":9855.851,"end":9884.032,"text":"所以我們考量的結果在中階技術人力會開放到科運業那這部分這些中階技術尤其是橋外生他本來就在本地念書市長請問一年有多少橋外生一年大概未來的整個的狀況大概一年會有1.2萬的橋外生但現在目前會很多橋外生畢業之後是回國那所以我們會希望他繼續留在臺灣本地是部長您認為橋外生能夠解決司機缺額的問題嗎"},{"start":9885.333,"end":9913.076,"text":"目前是還沒有開始使用目前還是在勞動部法制化的過程我們希望能夠補齊我們目前提的上限是554人如果可以補齊的話對我們來說當然是一部分的缺額可以補得上來不過我們還是有其他的缺額所以其實我們還在努力當然我們本國的勞工要優先優先來徵求另外對於移工的部分我們也會拜託勞動部是不是可以再放寬更寬一些"},{"start":9913.775,"end":9935.049,"text":"是 我們就橋外生投入大客車的駕駛市場我們來分三個層次來看112年來說 我們全國一共補助632人那為新竹建立所才20人解決桃竹苗的駕駛問題成效不彰那再來是我們要如何吸引橋外生投入客運駕駛市場那橋外生他的能力培訓可以足以通過考試跟勝任這份工作嗎"},{"start":9936.069,"end":9961.631,"text":"有關於僑外生當然因為我們的駕駛必須要職業證照所以我們還是會將來僑外生有意願從這個我們還是跟交通部會進行培訓的工作考取相關證照才會出來但是這部分還是要跟委員報告僑外生中階技術人力他只是其中的一個補充的方式他不是完全的解方所以我們基本上未來再如何讓我們的"},{"start":9962.632,"end":9979.403,"text":"大客車駕駛的薪資勞動條件能夠提升讓他可以持續留在這個職場才是重點否則有人進來我們接下來是不是要考量到他們留下來的意願因為他們不只可以投入到駕駛客運的這個市場他們也可以選擇其他工作"},{"start":9982.563,"end":10001.616,"text":"因為其實跟我們報告本地的勞工也是同樣的問題就是剛才講就有些可能會跑去開Uber或走到其他他可能工作彈性或薪資比較高或調整那我們針對喬愛森他們的收訊管理還有保險那這方面有完整的配套措施嗎這部分我們到我們現在在那個喬愛森"},{"start":10003.817,"end":10023.362,"text":"開放他從事客運業之後我們今年年底會把勞動部這邊相關的法制修整完畢修整完畢之後我們就會配套的跟消動部去合作讓他考照然後相應的配套讓他的部分可以進來到我們的那個客運業OK 請再提供本席書面資料次長您可以先請回謝謝委員"},{"start":10025.285,"end":10044.939,"text":"那再來我們看到部長我們看到勞動部的統計外送成員人員從108年的4.5萬人增加到113年7月的14.7萬人這個增幅高達三倍之多那這使得機車臨時停車的需求大幅上升在都會區停車位本來就很稀缺了那有外送人員他們因為為了要快速送餐"},{"start":10045.559,"end":10061.233,"text":"那他們會把他們的車停放在紅線上這也導致了紅線的比例增加那成為交通亂象之一況且他們常被罰這也讓他們感到非常辛苦和無奈對這個問題交通部有沒有什麼解決方案來改送外送員停車的問題"},{"start":10062.654,"end":10088.672,"text":"是當然停車的部分它主要俠管是在地方政府不過我們還是會盡量去跟他們溝通跟協調尤其針對這些營業的摩托車有沒有一些停放處可以制定例如說比較接近夜市或者是比較外送店家比較集中的區域有沒有可能去設置這樣的設置部長您提到地方政府我們來看到像例如台北、新北、台中都有他們都有設立外送"},{"start":10089.372,"end":10106.586,"text":"的林庭區那中央目前還沒有針對外送林區制定相關的法規那各級單位只能各自為政那各自應對那交通部作為全國的交通法規和政策的主要機關應該將機車林庭區納入法規體系並制定相關的規範這邊交通部有在請師長"},{"start":10108.527,"end":10130.602,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下因為發射007的部分最主要目前是透過標線的方式來做發射那以現行這一個標線的發射的話包括汽車、包括汽車、包括專用停車格位等等的部分原則上都可以來做營用那最主要的部分就是說地方政府怎麼來做規劃那譬如說像現行台北市他用這一個各類營業車輛共用這一個營業車輛"},{"start":10133.584,"end":10134.405,"text":"設立於108年11月至今都已經超過4年"},{"start":10150.214,"end":10176.48,"text":"外送的一個行業部分也是在各縣市慢慢做發展那其他有需求的這一個縣市的部分的話我們來向其他設比較早的那個部分提供這個經驗給其他縣市本席建議希望交通部可以盡快收集各級的機關設立機車林停區的相關資料並納入法規那交通部接下來這邊會再去收集嗎會接下來會收集一些資料然後朝這個方向"},{"start":10177.1,"end":10203.931,"text":"那在今年年初媒體有報導為了讓臺北車站周邊的交通更加順暢因此周邊有很多地方都設紅線禁止停車這使得外送員他們擔心被開罰然後進而不願意接臺北車站周邊的訂單那本席認為這種情況不僅發生在臺北車站而桃園高鐵站也有面臨類似的問題不然我們的盧昭偉也不會建議高鐵桃園站也要設外送臨停區那這邊建議部長是"},{"start":10205.812,"end":10224.766,"text":"要求台鐵和高鐵針對全國各級車站進行盤點這邊交通部能做到嗎如果有這方面的需求的車站周圍我們都朝這個方向來努力OK 那就希望部長可以再協助解決外送員他們臨庭的問題希望交通部可以努力來推動好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員接下來有請陳雪真委員發言"},{"start":10239.393,"end":10261.474,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉是不是請交通部陳部長還有公路總局陳部長陳國內局長部長早委員早謝謝您昨天果斷而且英明的決定請我們何局長很努力的去處理這個事情是是,他們會努力來處理航班的問題"},{"start":10262.379,"end":10287.173,"text":"部長我今天跟你談馬祖大橋因為你上任以來我還沒跟你詳細的談賴總統在行政院長任內核定了馬祖大橋可行性的評估而且也進入了綜合計畫那麼他也曾經前往縣子去會刊"},{"start":10288.499,"end":10305.167,"text":"曾經全網限職會刊他要先講,他只要可行的話錢不是問題那麼叫前幾任的行政院長對馬祖大俠的作為可以說相對的務實前幾天我也碰到周院長,我說馬祖大俠什麼時候決定?"},{"start":10306.547,"end":10315.754,"text":"他說你總預算不要卡關,你協助我們,我們就讓你過關總預算要過才有辦法建設的地方是事實我也很樂意去協助,希望總預算趕快去來審查賴總統在113年雙十國慶以團結台灣、共研夢想為題發表演說,強調"},{"start":10332.657,"end":10355.399,"text":"更要加強離島地區的基礎建設提升生活品質和觀光的量能由此可見賴總統對離島的務實了解就我們離島馬祖而言40餘年以來大概只有槍炮聲只有槍炮聲沒有基礎建設的機械聲可以顯示出我們建設的一個落後"},{"start":10357.422,"end":10379.78,"text":"山上原來種了一些高粱、地瓜現在也沒有了出海現在以前有很多的黃魚曾經是黃魚的故鄉現在魚也找不到了那島地交通趁風破浪而且夜間不相往來到晚上沒辦法開船空中交通的效率其差無比那麼來去"},{"start":10382.088,"end":10407.104,"text":"身不由己需要碰運氣來不易回更難且常被關倒像昨天側風很大飛機無法降落還有會主委到那邊去還跑到北幹去坐飛機回來所以馬祖有他說真的需要大家的幫忙我們馬祖大概是有36個島嶼組成的而且"},{"start":10411.533,"end":10430.631,"text":"我們島與島之間秀麗的景色美不勝收但美中不足的就是沒有橋樑的連接致使人民的生活品質大受影響現在金門有金門大橋澎湖有澎湖大橋我聽楊耀偉講還要再做一座大橋"},{"start":10434.603,"end":10458.802,"text":"馬祖根據舉世無雙的馬祖肉身的靈血擁有獨特的聖地光光亮能但是因為缺乏南北竿島際交通的基礎建設縱然南北竿有兩座不合格的小機場死債客量有限也沒有辦法發揮光光亮能"},{"start":10460.322,"end":10475.563,"text":"我在總之群曾經提到我們目前國產署我們的軍備局佔領了馬祖85%的土地我想那個部長也在場我跟卓院長報告我說如果你是連江縣的縣長"},{"start":10476.994,"end":10495.364,"text":"你對馬祖這樣的一個觀光那麼漂亮的一個島嶼你怎麼樣去發揮所長怎麼樣能夠讓它變得更美所以南甘島跟北甘島的連結這是非常重要的因為南甘那邊已經沒有腹地可以蓋了北甘那邊還可以蓋一些觀光旅館"},{"start":10497.389,"end":10513.044,"text":"所以馬祖需要賴總統在雙十國際演說的務實的主張而且更要加強南北港跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋的基礎建設那麼該大橋的綜合計畫已經完成而且由交通部已經呈報到行政院去核定"},{"start":10513.991,"end":10537.884,"text":"那麼大家都知道金門大橋是國民黨籍馬英俊總統的時候合訂的嘛合訂的也蓋好了我們也希望馬祖大橋由民進黨籍的賴總統能夠執政的時候能夠合訂興建況且早已經合訂了綜合計畫我們期盼賴總統和馬祖人民一同貢源馬祖大橋的夢"},{"start":10545.406,"end":10560.704,"text":"來實現這樣的一個生活品質跟光光亮人那麼我現在簡單的就我們大喬的一個時程107年的時候,那時候賴總統同意同意他辦理綜合計畫110年4月23日"},{"start":10563.949,"end":10588.59,"text":"南北竿大橋綜合規劃的其中報告也完成了110年8月綜合計畫報交通部三次抱怨那麼互踢皮球各打太極拳111年行政院秘書長再檢討本案的公法、經費及計畫效益的修正然後再報行政院113年"},{"start":10591.085,"end":10603.714,"text":"委託辦理案英國國發會拜託英國、英商、奧維納、工程顧問有限公司、台北分公司來繼續辦理完成結案的報告繼續來探討113年5月6日綜合規劃路線長約3.1公里經費288億施工期程大概8年"},{"start":10621.431,"end":10637.09,"text":"部長是總統賴清德他曾經講攸關馬祖未來百年發展的大紀的橋是馬祖人民應該要得到的大橋案在自己的手中推動一定要全力促成"},{"start":10638.223,"end":10661.006,"text":"我在這邊強調的是台灣我昨天也講過蓋了那麼多的高鐵捷運幾百億幾兆我們金門馬祖人民在砲火中成長在戰雲中茁壯我希望就是說部長您上來因為為什麼?這個案子很像在上頭一直在打轉"},{"start":10662.247,"end":10673.376,"text":"一直在打轉我本來以為說107年賴院長批了以後大概108年中和規劃出來108年、109年中和規劃出來以後可以進入建設計畫所以我前幾天拜託卓院長重視這樣的一個問題因為你不可能無止盡在打轉你從蔡英文總統、蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":10692.753,"end":10710.144,"text":"賴清德時任院長,到現在都已經過為總統了他們都答應我,說錢不是問題,技術你找營商600萬的工程去得標,但是回答的卻是找世西工程公司世西說沒有問題,這個大橋當然是很艱鉅的"},{"start":10715.697,"end":10741.223,"text":"你看大陸從平潭到福州的公帖大橋我親自到現場去看過它水深比馬祖的水域還深它的艱難度比馬祖的還更困難它已經完成了很多完成的例子在那邊所以所謂用技術性的問題在那邊推、拖、拉不是辦法我希望院長你能不能回答我,您的態度怎麼樣?"},{"start":10742.661,"end":10767.819,"text":"報告委員當然這個計畫已經走了一長段的時間那過去賴總統也表達過他支持這個案子那現在交通部的部分應該已經也都送到行政院現在就在等國科會、國發會那邊正在審議那委員我知道您希望能夠趕快促成這件事情銀商的報告回來沒有?還沒為什麼?他標案到10月底啊"},{"start":10769.878,"end":10798.424,"text":"但是這個部分是國發會他們主辦,那我們會委員您今天在這裡交代,我就來去問國發會問說可不可以加速一下,或者是去問一下英商英商的報告也是從世紀裡面抄來的,也是抄本浪費了這六百萬,我在這邊老實的講六百萬只夠英商的人事費,英國人的薪水是很高的,他待遇是非常高的他跑去問世紀幹什麼?問世紀的水文資料、水深資料,你去問這幹什麼?"},{"start":10799.895,"end":10814.814,"text":"你能夠有能力,六百萬有能力去鑽探嗎?不可能嘛所以一定是世襲提供的資料所以要查證如果是不可行的話,那就是你們告訴他,弄個不可行的報告出來一定是這樣子的我堅信啊"},{"start":10815.785,"end":10830.906,"text":"我們的四溪市應該是全國最優秀的一個工程公司金門大橋都可以蓋了起來馬祖大橋只有3公里,金門6點多公里有什麼問題?所以公路總局在這一段也沉寂了一段時間"},{"start":10832.128,"end":10855.286,"text":"我也沒有去逼陳局長,我知道問題是在上頭所以部長你能不能跟卓院長碰到賴總統跟他報告一下希望能夠圓我們馬祖人民的一個夢這個大橋是我們馬祖最重要的基礎建設因為兩個座大橋連結起來以後機場才有可能廢掉一座兩座大橋沒有連結起來"},{"start":10856.789,"end":10879.396,"text":"我們的機場不可能廢掉一座而且現在的機場說真的顯相還生像昨天你看看側風降落是很危險的GO AROUND一次、兩次那一種降落是非常危險的不要說出了事情我們再來後悔都來不及部長您承諾我好不好我跟院長、行政院這邊來反映這件事"},{"start":10882.284,"end":10911.27,"text":"你能不能跟我講一下,不要像前幾任一直在那邊打太極拳、推脫拉、在那邊踢啤酒行就行,不行就不行嘛,什麼原因嘛交通部的程序已經也走完,那也表示說交通部我沒有怪你們,交通部非常的幫忙那委員在交代的國發會的進度我們來了解,並且希望他們能夠趕快但是這個案子不能一拖再拖、一拖再拖啊是不是也有人告訴我說,你是交通委員會的召委"},{"start":10912.95,"end":10942.122,"text":"你就把交通部的預算給他砍掉嘛砍掉個三百億、五百億你看他給不給你我們總統也跟我講我們拿到優惠去表決嘛對不對我們做成主決議嘛我都沒有啊我有責備過你們嗎我有責難過你們嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有是不是我們越南也講了你預算的東西不要去增加嘛你循著他的程序來走嘛那我已經按照規矩"},{"start":10944.468,"end":10964.698,"text":"我也沒跟你鬧啊,我按照規矩、規矩矩矩的按照程序在走啦很像是壞了小孩子才有糖吃,乖了小孩子沒糖吃,很像是這樣子我現在的感想越來越像,是不是?我想部長你也不希望我在交通委員會裡面來審你們的預算、砍你們的預算,我來鬧"},{"start":10965.748,"end":10992.517,"text":"沒有意義嘛是不是你們總是要釋出一點善意你不能欺負好人啦是不是交通部給努力的部分交通部來努力我也幫你們交通部你看也努力了很久我想交通部的同仁也好對陳雪生委員應該都是給我大拇指的是不是當然我也謝謝你們給了我們馬祖很多的建設啦但是那是不夠的因為我們真的我們一生出來就是個畸形兒"},{"start":10993.997,"end":11018.81,"text":"我們飽受戰火的摧殘,到現在為止你看金門的建設,我們要落後金門的建設起碼30年是不是?我拜託部長,你昨天已經展現魄力了,我希望你今天再一次展現你的魄力好不好?跟周院長報告、跟賴總統報告,這個事情我看還是要賴總統來拍板周院長當然他是行政院院長"},{"start":11020.891,"end":11028.776,"text":"賴總統答應了事你重新再跟他報告一次好不好好那謝謝部長也謝謝局長你們的辛苦謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝好謝謝陳委員接下來有請陳樹葉、趙偉發言謝謝主席請主席邀請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":11058.957,"end":11076.412,"text":"部長早委員好我們看到交通部在9號有預告就是這個外送平台機車運送運價就是這個外送費的修正法規草案那是不是請部長先簡單說明一下就是說要修訂這樣子一個草案的緣由是基於什麼樣的"},{"start":11078.334,"end":11097.994,"text":"因為這個產業是新興的產業在臺灣我相信每一個人大部分的生活都會受到他的影響或者受到他的幫助這個產業到了現在當然有各個方面一方面是消費者一方面是外送員還有店家當然也還有企業就是產業面的部分其實關係到的範圍蠻大的"},{"start":11100.737,"end":11127.773,"text":"那有很多的聲音跟包括立法院相當多的委員希望說這個部分是不是政府可以多一些的管理對於消費者的權益也可以保障那對於勞工的權益也可以保障那不過這個部分大家討論完之後認為說有一個很重要的必須由交通部來推行的就是運價透明化這個部分因為畢竟我們這個行業它主要是在送貨那個貨是食物啦送食物送貨"},{"start":11128.593,"end":11155.741,"text":"那有很多的單位都希望說交通部是不是可以把這個運駕透明化的這個制定方向先把它拿出來先把它拿出來那這個部分交通部這陣子就在研擬這件事情我們希望透明化那希望有一個公式那這個公式由各方一起來達成協議就是我剛剛講的產業就是公司Uber平台平台業者那一方面是外送的工會外送員的工會那一方面是消費者"},{"start":11156.181,"end":11167.659,"text":"所以我們也特別拜訪了消費者基金會那之後的會議也會邀請他們來參加那地方政府以及公路局未來也會一起來制定整個運費的公式"},{"start":11168.3,"end":11172.342,"text":"是好那就是剛剛部長有講到一個重點就是這個運費的透明化所以應該就是一個很重要的問題應該就是這個運費的一個透明化的問題那我們也看到就是這個全國外送產業工會的理事長他在日前受訪的時候他也有很明確的講出來就是說"},{"start":11189.47,"end":11215.826,"text":"這個外送平台在2021年前就是運價都有詳細的計算公式那在2021年4月之後那這個計費的公式就不公開所以讓外送員的收入減少5到7成不等那就是約略估算就是之前他們可能一個單收入可以60元可是在4月之後他們可能就只就是減到剩40元甚至剩24元那這樣子真的是"},{"start":11216.606,"end":11217.547,"text":"所以對於這樣子的一個修正草案那也引起了很多的一個討論"},{"start":11232.215,"end":11260.99,"text":"我們看到在我們9號公告之後網路的媒體也做了一個民意調查就是在10月11跟10月15他有做了一個投票他也有去做這樣子的一個訪問對於外送運費的一個修法準則支持度還算蠻高的應該都是有支持這樣子的一個修法的方向"},{"start":11262.15,"end":11288.169,"text":"第二個問題那就是說如果說未來運價準則就是它的費用可能會調漲的話那是不是還會點外送可是就有高達55的這個比例不會再點那先請教部長你認為這樣子的一個民調可信度如何我覺得他的題目第一題或許比較正常但第二題我認為這個有引導性就是有陷阱"},{"start":11288.923,"end":11304.623,"text":"對他就說如果外送將那個運費將調漲60到85元等等對那這個部分其實是有些引導對那就事實上是會調漲60到85還是說會調漲到60至85那是不是就差很多"},{"start":11305.729,"end":11332.686,"text":"是 而且報告委員其實我們現在整個修法的方向主要是針對透明化的機制的部分我們在做討論但是運價不一定會上漲喔運價不一定會上漲因為未來各方所討論出來制定的那個運價制定出來之後我們只有制定上限沒有制定下限當我們上限訂出來代表什麼代表它的運價不可以超過我們規定的上限但"},{"start":11333.106,"end":11346.926,"text":"要往下例如說現在很多人我時常在用Uber Eats我是用免運費的那個方案未來廠商可不可以繼續用免運費當然可以他可以繼續用免運費這個沒有問題所以沒有那一種調漲60到85元這個議題並不存在"},{"start":11349.91,"end":11359.803,"text":"所以這是假議題我認為是假議題所以這很重要我覺得這樣子的話可能就是會讓很多人誤解那因為我也看到一份報導這是一個媒體的一個關鍵一個評論的媒體他也說就是這樣子的一個訊息出來之後"},{"start":11367,"end":11384.733,"text":"消基會也表示反對那我不曉得說這方面您找到的報告員這個部分應該是有一些誤解消基會所聽到的消息是調漲但我剛剛也跟委員報告過我們這次沒有要做任何調漲的討論我們只有針對機制的透明化做討論"},{"start":11386.754,"end":11416.054,"text":"討論出來的那個機制他不一定是調漲有可能大家因為到時候消基會也會是討論的一方他們也會加入討論的一方所以消費者的權益一定會得到保障他不一定就是一定調漲那消基會得到的訊息可能是片面的事後我們有跟消基會做溝通那局長也特別去拜訪過消基會的董事長他們聽完之後他們也認為說透明化對於消費者的權益保障應該是有幫助的所以他們也支持透明化這個方案"},{"start":11416.434,"end":11419.017,"text":"是 可是就是說當然這是剛剛部長回答的啦可是如果說看我們針對這個目前公告的這個修法的一個方向啊內容就是有提到說在幾種情況下可以加收等待費、樓層費、夜間加成費、春節運費等等"},{"start":11436.174,"end":11449.88,"text":"加收這樣子的話就是等於就是真的會漲啊報告委員這個裡面是得啦你可以把這個當作計價方案但也可以不把它當作計價方案可以討論這是可以討論的所以我說過"},{"start":11452.681,"end":11478.337,"text":"這一次我們的討論重點是放在透明化的機制透明化的機制運價透明化的機制那至於運價透明化裡面該包含哪些內容目前還在討論階段我們下禮拜三會有一個座談會邀集了消機會邀集了這個平台業者邀集了外送員工會大家一起來討論未來可能的計價機制那現在的狀況是這樣現在是沒有把這些放進去但"},{"start":11478.857,"end":11508.2,"text":"到底消費者所承受的運價是多少目前是沒人知道的送的那個人不知道付錢的那個人也不知道這是目前大家遇到的問題是 所以本席在這邊也希望就是說我們在修正這樣子一個法案可能會影響的也就是聯動的就是三方嘛平台、消費者還有店家所以這個也是非常的重要所以我們是不是也有可能去做一個民調就是針對外送員的族群去做一個"},{"start":11509.32,"end":11521.288,"text":"民意調查然後消費者也做一個民意調查還有店家也做一個民意調查對於他們所擔心的疑慮因為我們看到媒體的報導包括店家他們也擔心就是說這個外送平台這樣一個新興的產業這樣子的一個供應鏈"},{"start":11525.331,"end":11527.773,"text":"新制通過後,多數成本轉嫁平台、消費者或店家身上下單人意願低"},{"start":11541.124,"end":11561.964,"text":"外送員可能就接不到單那店家也會賺不到錢那最後就是就是會影響到這個外送產業的一個就是會打擊到或者是沒落那這個都是一個連動的一個影響那是不是我們應該要去針對這三個族群去做一個很確切的一個民意調查"},{"start":11562.985,"end":11581.44,"text":"掌握真實的民意因為畢竟我覺得這個法令實施之後你要再來修改也是會需要很長的時間我們的討論的過程一定會把各方的意見都納入這個委員您放心我們在討論的過程各方的意見都會納入但我看這兩篇報導都是把成本增加"},{"start":11582.361,"end":11601.119,"text":"作為前提但成本不一定是增加成本不一定是增加我們只是針對透明化就是你該怎麼計價透明化這個跟成本的增加或減少是沒有關係的所以我覺得有一些訊息是錯誤的刻意給店家這樣的訊息如果成本增加如果到你身上怎麼辦用這個前提這是不對的設定"},{"start":11602.125,"end":11603.886,"text":"接下來有請蔡奇昌委員發言"},{"start":11635.892,"end":11637.973,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長、林司長、陳局長林司長還有陳局長 謝謝"},{"start":11650.706,"end":11677.617,"text":"三位早時間有限今天有幾個問題就叫第一個台藝縣這個大甲溪橋的改建工程大安溪橋的改建工程這個本席一直以來非常關心這些年來我們也不斷的會勘也開過多次的協調會議那基本上交通部的態度是全力支持無論是從過去幾任的部長都是支持我想陳部長應該也是支持"},{"start":11678.357,"end":11706.198,"text":"那重點來了就是說那個預算經費龐大那部裡面公路局曾經跟本席報告過這個要特別的這個請行政院特別來支持那我想請那個局長大概現在目前的狀況預算的狀況是如何是跟委員報告因為省改計畫就是說我們西一期的計畫有提報到行政院那整體的匡列的經費因為確實就是說省道上面有很多的一些道路跟橋樑要做對要做"},{"start":11707.799,"end":11728.748,"text":"所以大概就是說我們自己是評估就是說已經匡列的經費對於就是說有一些新增的因為這個是算是說新增的改建的工程可能會經費上面比較不足所以我們大概也會再爭取一種就是說大概匡列的經費未來可以再增加或是修正另外一種就是說比如說提專案的計畫去跟行政院爭取"},{"start":11728.988,"end":11748.417,"text":"OK 這個部長 這個應該你要積極一下啦 因為這以前很簡單 以前不是很簡單 以前要努力譬如說只要部長同意送到行政院對於新興的這個計畫是民眾需要的 因為大甲溪、大安溪是台一線當中中部非常重要的兩個橋樑"},{"start":11749.457,"end":11772.439,"text":"那年代已經很久遠了我們經不起這個橋樑有任何的散失這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情但以前只要部長同意院長同意就解決了對不對那這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了啦因為就如同局長所講的全台灣那個省道要修的道路橋樑這麼多嘛但現在更複雜了"},{"start":11773.82,"end":11790.695,"text":"因為現在啊如果在野黨不審預算啊我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷逮捕這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛預算沒過新興計畫沒有錯這個我很了解我在立法院那麼久了我很了解所以又比以前更困難了但是不管多困難啊"},{"start":11791.736,"end":11814.79,"text":"我想民眾對於這些他們期待趕快政府期待政府要做的事情那第一關要先部裡面跟行政院要同意嘛所以部長你要記得這件事情因為前面兩個部長都答應本席一定會跟行政院記者我也會跟行政院長來做一個報告來爭取好不好那之後我們再來看看立法院對這個預算的審查要怎麼來處理第二個問題這個"},{"start":11818.786,"end":11841.353,"text":"民眾其實不斷的反映臺中的市民也是這個樣子就是這個今天大家在討論這個運輸特別像公車人力不足的問題那這個人力不足就導致這個托班嚴重你看這個隨便這個新聞報導臺北市托班嚴重對不對臺中市這個公車駕駛方深夜末班車下午4點就開走"},{"start":11842.173,"end":11861.243,"text":"長輩等沒車啦其實不只長輩等沒有車啦我想過去這一年來很多的上班族上學的同學啊這個因為拖班導致比如說很多學生他就遲到了嘛他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的他都算好了結果那一班沒來"},{"start":11862.571,"end":11887.981,"text":"他去學校就遲到了然後有一些上班的也因為沒來他也上班也遲到了所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大剛剛討論過的我就不再重複了部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法讓這個問題可以解決這是一回事但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情你要督促各地方政府就是據時已報"},{"start":11890.049,"end":11918.09,"text":"你讓你公車明明15分鐘你就沒有辦法來一班嘛因為你的司機明顯就不足了嘛但是你讓消費者讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班結果你就給我拖班所以他本來可以自己你告訴他因為我沒有辦法請到我這個市長無能我市長沒有辦法處理到這個事情所以我15分鐘一班的公車我現在告訴你30分鐘一班"},{"start":11919.568,"end":11942.937,"text":"那上班上學的同學們跟這些上班族、市民朋友們他就知道說現在30分鐘一班那我該自己不行的我就要想辦法搭Uber或者搭計程車或者自己開車或者什麼這個才讓人家有預期嘛不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴幾號公車又拖班、幾號公車又拖班害他遲到"},{"start":11944.554,"end":11961.493,"text":"喔 這個真的是不勝美舉啊那為什麼地方政府你不好好地把你就你就有困難你就請不上你市長就要出來解決嘛你要告訴大家實話啊你不可以每次都一直拖班啊所以部長這個可不可以請我們的監理單位這個上級"},{"start":11964.596,"end":11989.696,"text":"我們有請公路總局針對這個市區公車的部分合理性的班表再做檢討我們會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討合理性的班表是為什麼一方面是要讓民眾知道我什麼時候有車什麼時候沒車這個要務實要講實話那第二就是說時間也不要拉得太緊因為有時候公車的駕駛他為了趕時間你用那種不合理的班表他就要趕時間就要開很快"},{"start":11990.657,"end":12009.277,"text":"所以也危險所以合理性的頒表我們會再努力沒錯這個一定要努力啦就是說我其實大家不是趕你那個車子而是因為你讓我預期你告訴我你上面告訴我這個幾分鐘15分鐘一班車或者20分鐘一班車但是不是這樣子嘛那個都是參考用的"},{"start":12009.918,"end":12037.79,"text":"那這個就很嚴重了這個就跟過去我們昨天在罵台鐵是一樣的問題所以這個一定要加強監督好不好這個要當成跟地方政府這個監督的重點再來另外這個遊覽車的評鑑我看了一下好像這個112年度又比110年度這個甲等跟乙等好像甲等就越來越少乙等越來越多這個我想請教一下我們如果得到優等有什麼獎勵"},{"start":12039.811,"end":12059.992,"text":"局長是不是我們大概就是說對於就是說業者的一些管理他的強度優等就會變得比較低比如說他到公司的一些查核的這個頻率就會比較少那對於就像比如說不列等我們就每個月都去一等的話比如一劑那第二個跟各位報告就是優等的我們都公告"},{"start":12060.652,"end":12089,"text":"有等假等公告公告以後其實我們也就是說宣導這個旅行社還有學校他們就是要去看租車的時候你公告就在我們交通部的網站我們網站還有就是說像車子我們也宣導車子旁邊車門有QR code其實他一般的民眾掃一下就知道說這個業者大概是平等是怎麼樣這個喔局長這個分消極面跟積極面消極面我們當然就是要防範"},{"start":12090.473,"end":12113.371,"text":"業者都大家亂來嘛所以你要有一套評鑑來督促要求他們但是我覺得這個積極面不夠啦就你要讓大家努力去做一個好人優秀的人做一個讓大家肯定的人那你就要有一些獎勵嘛我們孩子功課好頒獎功課進步我們也頒獎"},{"start":12116.625,"end":12141.108,"text":"他就是公開啊直接就是公開這樣做嘛那你要讓大家努力往上爬是因為直接講這是商業行為讓他有誘因嘛這是誘因設計的問題嘛如果我因為這樣譬如說我拿特優的假設啦政府都優先政府要聘遊覽車我都直接從特優開始特優沒有我才找甲等"},{"start":12142.005,"end":12159.994,"text":"那我的獎勵我讓所有使用遊覽車大量的跟政府相關的業者相關的機關我都發函告訴他甚至我的甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子這台車米其林三星的"},{"start":12161.752,"end":12180.354,"text":"你現在去餐廳走路看到那個米其林你就會覺得說這間應該不會踩雷啦所以一樣的道理嘛我們要做評鑑你就要真的把它落實啦消極面我們不能只處理消極面好像只是抓害蟲我們要鼓勵才對"},{"start":12181.465,"end":12195.948,"text":"另外業者也會有一些抱怨就是我們幾乎都是這個叫我們就招標嘛專家學者啦或者什麼單位來招標標評鑑遊覽車啦我不反對因為總是要有人去評鑑嘛"},{"start":12196.949,"end":12224.665,"text":"但是我的意思是說這個評鑑當然項目我看過具體清楚但是是不是憑藉這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等是不是我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通因為業者的抱怨意思就是說學者都活在外太空的世界裡面實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的"},{"start":12226.077,"end":12254.546,"text":"這個內容所以這個我是建議多溝通啦因為說實在話你怎麼定都有人你怎麼定都有人有意見但是你要讓多數的業者覺得參加這一個評鑑他是覺得有意義的好不好這個我們再加強一下那最後一個大家今天討論這個外送平台其實怎麼定本席沒有意見但是怎麼定交通部這個困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要適應"},{"start":12255.933,"end":12283.05,"text":"當然要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平台業者也要贏啦對那透明是第一步啦是就是因為你不透明大家相互猜忌嘛對外送員一定覺得說我收到錢你都留大部分的利潤留在平台我外送員只領一點點但是如果你實際當然我不瞭解啦但是如果我實際從報章雜誌去看到的"},{"start":12285.336,"end":12303.383,"text":"平台幾乎都虧錢嘛我不知道台灣的平台是不是賺錢平台在台灣應該是賺錢不然他那個併購我聽說他併購的價值要花308億那個主委那個我們那個公平會李主委來麻煩一下平台業者在台灣賺錢還是虧錢"},{"start":12307.476,"end":12334.379,"text":"這個每個兩個平台業者的營運狀況不同是不是賺錢可能要他們不是申請要申請要併購嗎資料送來沒有申請有一些文件已經到有一些文件對那你看了文件他們是賺錢還是虧錢這個從文件上很難就是說賺不賺錢要從很多面向沒關係沒關係就是他們基本有財報嘛是主委如果你覺得這個是不可以公佈的你也可以告訴本席"},{"start":12335.663,"end":12360.672,"text":"所以如果你覺得說這個是可以公佈的因為我看報章雜誌他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利嘛所以全球的這個平台業者都在哭說他們已經幾十年成立十年來聊話者已經都在講這個嘛所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢嘛我做一個閱聽者我也覺得他虧錢的但聽部長講起來好像不一定或許國家有差別所以我問你台灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢"},{"start":12363.559,"end":12382.465,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個兩家營業額營業額大概就是去年是600億跟500億台幣對那福平台我們知道他今年有轉就是有轉正了是有賺錢賺錢了啦好那這個齁要做到透明如果連這個都不能公佈剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能了"},{"start":12384.304,"end":12409.639,"text":"因為你沒有公開的財報你如何未來我們政府當政府要去介入現在看起來是沒有人沒有人要當爐主這到底要誰來管沒有人要當這個法如果要定專法要定沒有爐主但不管怎麼樣爐主是誰以後我們在這個要討論但重點在於公開透明的第一步就像上市公司一樣他的財報讓大家很清楚"},{"start":12410.407,"end":12439.464,"text":"他每一單他的毛利多少、利率多少要清楚我們才可以大家才可以要談判的過程裡面才有一個準則嘛我不知道這個是不是應該要可不可以公平會你們當你們看到要併購的時候這個東西是不是可以公佈啦我不知道齁我剛剛問你所以你可以公佈你就告訴本席你不可以公佈你就隱晦其講但是你試想如果這個是不可以公佈的那政府要如何去介入讓他公開透明"},{"start":12441.116,"end":12460.716,"text":"這個本身我們就矛盾了啦這個本身就矛盾了所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過他的財報攤在陽光下你要說服這個這個我們的辛苦的外送員才可以知道告訴你說這是什麼你分這個錢合不合理嘛因為我們的貨運"},{"start":12463.438,"end":12483.941,"text":"運輸貨運管理業我們有這些同業的大家可以來看他的這個標準是什麼這個才可以有做到這個嘛然後我也覺得很奇怪交通部要來管這個齁那個郵差有沒有專法那個我從小我們就看他騎摩托車啊他也在送東西耶他是依照什麼法來管理是依照這個郵政法"},{"start":12484.52,"end":12495.723,"text":"還有依照郵政法來管理嘛那未來郵政法跟你你送信的叫做郵政法那送食物的那是什麼法"},{"start":12496.394,"end":12524.355,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在就是說送郵物的部分跟一般貨物的部分包括這一個外送的部分原則上在法規上是有一條線對那一條線的界線是什麼那條線的部分因為它那個就是說這一個郵件的部分的話就是偏向這個就是書面這些相關的東西那像這一個郵局它如果說遞送包裹那也是算是送貨了"},{"start":12525.816,"end":12550.655,"text":"所以你看喔 我不問這個問題喔 大家又不是傻傻啦阿你剛剛解釋我聽起來還是不是傻傻啦阿所以誰要來主管這個事情我就會立刻想到你交通部你也有郵差阿阿郵差也是騎著摩托車在送阿阿他的 我貼了郵票讓他送到 我付了錢讓他去送那他到底郵差抽多少"},{"start":12552.207,"end":12565.105,"text":"這個都是問題啦我沒有答案我只是點出來說到底誰要來管這個因為他的商業模式很簡單嘛他一樣有送貨的部分但是他的接單卻是數位的平台"},{"start":12566.397,"end":12591.542,"text":"然後呢它是跟店家又要連結然後消費者又要付費嘛對不對所以它看起來這個環節裡面很複雜嘛所以不要掛一漏萬啦不要說到時候齁換郵差來說欸啊我送這個我領這個薪水因為我好像送的單比我的同事多捏我的件數啊我送票齁我都一天我都送100斤他送50斤他才會到我那樣"},{"start":12594.585,"end":12622.515,"text":"我們郵差沒有這個我們才是進去哪一個幾等就領多少薪水嘛 對不對對所以這個都要整體考量啦本席覺得要適應啦要大家都贏這個管理政府的介入才有意義啦不然或者你這個就是裡外不是人啦這個你怎麼做都會有問題嘛就像要公開透明我剛剛問李主委他看起來這個要回答得很保守嘛 對不對這怎麼公開透明呢"},{"start":12623.563,"end":12651.715,"text":"時間的關係啦這個那個市長有空再到我辦公室來跟我講一下郵差的事情好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蔡委員那現在時間12點請請教一下今天列席機關各單位有沒有沒有吃早餐的啊不是啊當然可能要自己先去補一下那我們沿上中午也要休息要不要休息啊"},{"start":12653.445,"end":12669.825,"text":"各機關有沒有什麼建議都還好啦如果說要廁所的請自行前往好不好那第二個是因為今天這個登記委員特別多還有20幾位那待會各位委員把握時間好 謝謝大家接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12684.177,"end":12685.06,"text":"主席有請部長好陳部長"},{"start":12699.301,"end":12725.6,"text":"部長我想今天這個主題大家都是針對我們的駕駛缺工跟減班、砍線的問題來希望交通部推動相關政策可是不要忘記我覺得勞權跟安全的重要性那相信部長對於駕駛人力的持續銳減的問題應該有充分掌握了不過我想問部長是我們的路線班次跟運量都縮減"},{"start":12726.801,"end":12755.85,"text":"照理來講事故應該是不是理論上應該也會事實上是減少的對那大貨車的這個事故數據部長不知道有沒有掌握大貨車對大客貨車大貨車應該是真大客貨車的事故數據有沒有事故數據是在成長的好來我們就來看一下那個數據的確如部長剛剛提的就是說照理來講"},{"start":12756.73,"end":12771.203,"text":"我的觀念應該半次減少運量減少應該會減少怎麼反而數據事實上是好像顯示的不是這麼一回事像整體的大貨車裡面的數量創10年新高而且尤其是大貨車跟公車"},{"start":12772.096,"end":12795.198,"text":"造成的傷亡人數還逐步惡化112年還是創10年最高我自己本身一直在關心兒童安全那過去也對這邊比較多努力所以我對事故傷害防治跟安全議題相當重視那今年也發生了幾起事我們的大型車輛跟兒少的交通事故那大型車輛的管理問題已經成詬病的時候"},{"start":12795.868,"end":12811.692,"text":"在這邊我有幾個問題要提醒交通部首先來看一下我們的客運業勞動條件非常的差已經是眾人所知的常態每年勞動部都有勞檢以112年為例我們的處分率17.42%17.42%裡邊三層事實上是汽車客運業"},{"start":12822.801,"end":12841.19,"text":"1200場有209件那17.12可是三成都是客運業者那第一名是工作超時台灣一直在處理酒駕可是始終一直沒有處理疲勞駕駛可是除了工作超時以外那第三名事實上是休息時間不足那跟111年也都一樣就我們始終沒有去面對疲勞駕駛可是這個我們的客運業者"},{"start":12847.472,"end":12860.777,"text":"面對到的是這樣子的一個問題再來看第二個問題也就是我們的駕駛的薪資結構非常奇形我引用媒體從判決書上得到的資料會發現公車業者號稱8萬塊"},{"start":12864.998,"end":12893.744,"text":"就是說業者是可以可是三分之一事實上是加班費然後全部都是用獎金所以也意味著什麼意味著要我們的司機要搶班又搶客那就會開的速度上甚至客人在那裡站牌的時候我就要很快速的插過去然後才可以得到這些獎金因為載客量事實上是他的獎金來源那所以我不知道部長"},{"start":12894.898,"end":12911.379,"text":"你對於像這樣子的用獎金用加班費對駕駛跟業者來講這個事實上這些選項都沒有太大就好像不斷的鼓勵我們的司機要愛拚才會贏才能賺得更多不知道你對這個狀況有掌握嗎"},{"start":12913.642,"end":12942.161,"text":"有掌握那我也覺得說這個目前客運業在缺工的狀況底下勞動條件是一個很重要的一環那如果勞動條件可以提升我相信客運的這個人才會更留得住更能夠吸納所以我們一直在鼓勵說業者是不是在勞動條件的方面可以來做更好的加強那這個部分我以後也會再實施對 所以我覺得是不是可以要強勢一點否則的話我覺得找不到好的人人也不會進去那我也先想問部長"},{"start":12942.921,"end":12950.056,"text":"你是不是知道平建機制當中勞權的分數到底比重佔多少這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":12954.48,"end":12973.867,"text":"老全有放進來嗎因為我們其實是在基本的安全紀錄裡面他有提到就是說比如說自顧啦違規啦還有違反勞動條件所以就是說有一些部分如果說他違反一些勞動條件的話他就會變成說我來幫你回答就是先看到事實上"},{"start":12974.625,"end":12975.765,"text":"國道客運5.1%一般公車客運5.4%"},{"start":12991.636,"end":13011.605,"text":"公路總局你們到底自己跟部長觀念是不是不太一樣都覺得勞權很重要可是在評鑑分數上並沒有呈現因為只佔了5%評鑑應該是以安全為主以交通部的立場大概以安全為主因為勞權的部分當然我們很重視但是勞動部的部分也會來協助這個"},{"start":13012.605,"end":13038.672,"text":"所以部長也要知道我們要好的人才有辦法事實上安全否則的話沒有辦法來我們公路局年年都去考察了可是年年退步到底出去考察應該不是去玩吧你106年就開始去考察啦你也會去看東南亞地區瞭解整個客運營運的那個狀況管理怎麼去做可是看起來10年駕駛人創新低以外可是我們大客"},{"start":13039.392,"end":13067.064,"text":"大貨客運的這樣子造成傷亡近創10年新高那你考察用意這樣子有達到嗎似乎在浪費公帑下一頁所以另外運安會也在建議說你是不是應該建立安全管理機制不過更重要應該是輔導業者設置專責單位或人來修訂評鑑的執行要點來把安全管理納入"},{"start":13067.697,"end":13081.444,"text":"一個評選的考量再來看公視已經幫你們做完功課106年的時候公視就去採訪日本的巴士業者去針對一系列的報導甚至安全制度的改革行動包含我們的產業結構不要讓它銷價競爭"},{"start":13084.806,"end":13108.598,"text":"還有管理者的整個的駕駛的管理跟訓練要確保我們的駕駛有休息的時間甚至有沒有他的工時跟休息時間能不能有一些法則來確保我們駕駛者不會過度疲勞所以我們不希望說今天人家都幫你做完功課已經open book了你們還是無動於衷"},{"start":13111.007,"end":13137.308,"text":"應該不是考察作為只是玩樂應該是把考察東西拿回來之後好好的來落實所以對於公車客運駕駛我主張是不是政府可以用運駕貼補應以薪資結構正常化為條件來改善我們假高薪真拚命賺獎金的問題來吸引跟留用我們高品質人才"},{"start":13138.509,"end":13167.129,"text":"強化駕駛的勞動條件希望能夠儘速修訂公車、汽車客運業營運與服務評鑑執行要點來調整檢討評鑑項目第三個是應該落實我們考察跟研究報告的建議具體提出公車客運業者的管理制度跟改革短中長期計畫我不知道部長這邊可不可以在兩個禮拜內提出書面報告是 這個部分我們納入研議並且提出報告給委員好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"},{"start":13171.004,"end":13191.953,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請李昆城委員發言謝謝主席我們請這個交通部陳部長還有這個公路局陳局長陳局長"},{"start":13198.448,"end":13214.385,"text":"部長好、局長好、委員好我相信大家早上都問了很多有關於這個我們這個客運的司機這個人力不足的問題那其實我看了你們的這一個報告裡面也發現到就是說在公路客運這部分的話"},{"start":13215.546,"end":13222.492,"text":"現有人力是3625個人然後缺員是772個市區客運的話呢現有人力是10866個缺員是1443個然後遊覽車業者也有缺但是實際上我們林友這一個駕駛職業實照的這個司機數量是遠遠超過於這邊那部長或是局長這邊有沒有想到說為什麼"},{"start":13240.36,"end":13261.428,"text":"我明明有這一個這個執照有這個駕照那為什麼不願意投入這一個客運的司機的這個工作我想一般人的就業啦應該是考慮他的這個職場環境職場環境就是一個那另外就是待遇可能有沒有符合他的想像部長就點到兩個重點了吧一個是職場的環境的問題嘛那第二個就是說這個待遇的問題那其實我的問題跟剛剛岳勤委員的問題類似就是說"},{"start":13267.53,"end":13281.628,"text":"現在我們看好像這個司機他們月薪比如說坑月者司機可能月薪大概有多少?7、8萬以上有嗎?7、8萬甚至到10萬都有也有機會那他們的月薪是多少?"},{"start":13283.268,"end":13306.907,"text":"他們大概月薪是多少月薪如果委員所指的是他基本底薪基本底薪因為各家公司不一樣只是說剛剛所提到的那個是正常的排班之下的話大概就是說他們的平均薪資就是七八萬到有的資深的可以到十萬但是他們的底薪大概都是基本薪資那剩下都是用這個加班的方式"},{"start":13307.677,"end":13321.701,"text":"它是就是說有排班啦它有排班就是說因為比如說這個可能就是如果是你出班的那個日數啦頻率比較少的話所以1 3分之1是底薪1 3分之2是這個排班的這個薪水這樣講比例有沒有錯大概是1比2"},{"start":13325.578,"end":13349.394,"text":"我的問題就是在於說啦一比一或一比二都會有就是說就變成是說那如果沒有客運業者這個業績這個債運沒有受到影響的話那當然就是這個還可以維持下去但是在COVID-19之後整個都受到影響了嘛大家客運的人就減少了那變成說司機的薪水變相也減少了是不是有這個問題"},{"start":13351.778,"end":13372.474,"text":"如果班次少他的收入當然就會減少對啊就會減少那所以就是說這是剛剛部長提到的第二點就是說他的薪資的問題薪資的問題那我們剛剛有看到這一個現在在這個臺北車站吧臺北這一個營運站他那一個這個二樓的這一個我們看一下那一個照片這一個國道客運的臺北轉運站二樓是淪為空城那為什麼"},{"start":13381.72,"end":13406.069,"text":"當然客運業者他的業績狀況不太好這個大家都知道那再來就租金非常的高在二樓可能聽說要幾百對啊過去還真的過去那因為現在就是生意不好沒有這麼多人在那邊了嘛對啊那所以說臺北轉運站的二樓現在這個大概三四家租金比較便宜所以二樓現在就變成空城了嘛"},{"start":13407.169,"end":13435.98,"text":"國道客運的載客量衰退36%那也造成說那個業者他們的這一個營運的這個壓力增加那所以我要請教一下部長跟局長就是說第一個當然我們希望說能夠幫這一個司機來加薪水那加薪水這部分的話我看地方政府是有在做地方政府他們有在補助就是說這個比如像雙北大概"},{"start":13436.6,"end":13463.28,"text":"有可能在年底的時候會補助大概六千塊左右然後這部分的話在中央的部分的話對於這個國道科育業者有沒有這個想法或是說有這個機會來補助來補助我們這個國道科育業者報告委員這個補助地方政府會補助那我想中央也都有中央的補助是我們挑到這個那中央的補助勒"},{"start":13465.038,"end":13493.457,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上其實在整個的運價包括這一個公路客運跟國道客運的運價其實這兩年已經都做了相關的調整了合理的反映他們的運輸的成本那運價調整之後的話就是說我們都有要求業者就是說這個提升的這一個部分的話其實要回饋到這個駕駛的薪資的一個對啦那我的意思就是說我們現在注意這個地方政府地方政府他們有在補助司機啦那國道客運的駕駛有沒有辦法來補助勒"},{"start":13496.6,"end":13516.979,"text":"我們目前是補助給業者但是我們有要求補助給他的裡面有一定的比例是要給駕駛員那現在是補助是多少勒因為我們大概一年就是說像國道科運的話一年補助大概有6億元那公務科運一年有1到2億元那有多少是拿來是做這個月薪的這個調整勒"},{"start":13518.477,"end":13537.102,"text":"月薪的調整這個部分的話其實當初大概就是說在勞動條件上面我們有請業者就是說征服的這個部分因為大概都有增加10%的一個就是說他們這樣子啊你給我一個給我一個報告好了好不好就是說中央補助的部分的話大概他們薪資可以增加大概4000元"},{"start":13538.982,"end":13563.247,"text":"就是說 麻煩你給我一個比較明確的報告就是說你們對於這個業者的補助的話還有多少是拿來做這一個這個四季的加薪因為至少我知道說雙北他們都有加薪的六千塊啦然後還有這個國道路線的話現在是只有補助這個平面的兩個端點高速路段並沒有補貼那這個有沒有機會說在高速路段的部分比照平面路段這個採用準運機制納入補貼"},{"start":13565.337,"end":13579.512,"text":"這個部分我們也有在研議而且國道客運的話就是說我們除了就是說國道走平面路段有補貼以外另外就是說對於就是說這個運價成長之後它沒有反映到票價所以票差的這個部分我們也有給他們協助"},{"start":13580.633,"end":13606.998,"text":"那這部分我是希望說這個能夠協助這個客運業者啦因為其實客運還是有許多人他會選擇的一個搭運的一個交通的一個方式啦因為我們對於這個相對於說對高鐵啊對鐵路啊就相對好像有多一點這個關照的眼神那但是對客運業者說是比較少啦那我希望這一點也能夠再加強好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝委員"},{"start":13609.827,"end":13613.208,"text":"好 謝謝李委員 接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府及官司長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長以及公路局陳局長哇 都是三位姓陳"},{"start":13643.926,"end":13666.97,"text":"我們等一下看一下那個簡報出來一下不好意思不好意思有時候電腦就是要弄綠色乖乖窗口氣啊 對不起"},{"start":13683.034,"end":13686.118,"text":"先聊一下不好啦要怎樣哪一個哪一個東西換筆電嗎"},{"start":13707.711,"end":13720.057,"text":"好 沒事沒事發生一點技術性問題齁那那個位置調一下齁那個 曾委員的曾委員會不會往後面調一下齁我們請 好 劉啟庭委員 啊 好了嗎五分鐘五分鐘"},{"start":13728.953,"end":13749.208,"text":"好請劉舉廷委員發言好謝謝主席也是不是要一樣的對我看就一樣好了我們節省時間這個好我們看一下今天現在沒有技術問題了今天一樣要討論這個客運的問題其實上一次部長在做業報的時候我就已經把話講得非常清楚了來現在客運業者的問題"},{"start":13750.606,"end":13777.325,"text":"第一個這個乘客量在疫情過後開始逐漸攀升嘛但是基本上疫情這一波把大部分客運業者都打趴了另外就是說駕駛人數其實從總體來看是一個下降趨勢那不只是人數變少而已還有高齡化的問題那你知道高齡駕駛總是相對危險所以客運業業者跟客運業的人力的新陳代謝它其實是非常重要的事情所以說客運缺工駕駛高齡化其實是交通部要面對的很重要的問題部長同意嗎"},{"start":13777.765,"end":13805.533,"text":"同意好現在喔這個人才大量流失了為什麼請部長回答一方面勞動條件一方面薪資的問題那再來就是說當時因為疫情所以很多的客運業者的狀況不太好很多的人才就直接流失了那也直接就轉到其他的行業去要回來不太容易再來還有一點就是大家對於客運的這個服務的品質要求其實蠻高的沒錯很多的客運的司機員大家都反映說壓力相當的大好"},{"start":13806.313,"end":13830.357,"text":"不錯部長這次回答我是非常滿意基本上完全命中第一個叫疫情重挫乘車需求嘛讓業者的營運狀況雪上加霜第二個基本上是因為勞基法修了一例一休之後當然要保障他們的工時這本席完全同意可是相對來講是造成了這個實務上的一些競合的狀況也就是說客運業者有些他可能真的是生活啊非常非常辛苦加一分薪水他後來算了一下發現最近有新聞開始講啊我去開Uber去跑外送加起來搞不好"},{"start":13831.297,"end":13859.973,"text":"勞動時間一樣長他寧願讓自己過勞但是他可以賺的錢比較多他不受這樣子的一個規範所以他相對來講又吃掉了一部分司機的緣額第三個就是勞動的環境跟條件除了薪資不高之外常常被人家客訴每次要等這個待命的時候在破破爛爛的場站裡面連躺下來休息的地方都沒有這些勞動環境的不佳也是客運司機心灰意冷的原因部長問題意識非常清楚但是解決方案不清楚"},{"start":13860.473,"end":13888.119,"text":"問題意思清楚也沒有用嘛是不是部長是以這一段時間來講我們剛剛講因為疫情的關係我們必須要先幫客運業者打幾劑強心針讓他們至少願意留在市場上更有甚者你必須拿政府的補貼來增加價值的薪水方向都正確但這個額度能看嗎部長部長我們總共有幾家全國有幾家國道客運業者這個數字我不曉得齁但是欸這數字是你交通部的業報寫的捏那是不是今天的報告大家桌上都有請局長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":13893.188,"end":13915.86,"text":"加速的部分就是客運業者有300多家然後你運價這樣總共因為你講嘛差額由政府補貼一年額度是1.3億這個是一般的一般公路客運那還有國道客運的我知道但我的意思是說這個額度啊其實是不成比例的"},{"start":13916.36,"end":13942.978,"text":"今天的問題已經很嚴重嚴重到基本上業者都送進家務病房司機通通不願意來他如果是這麼嚴重的狀況你還在說吃感冒藥要上葉克膜的病人你給他吃感冒藥有用嗎其實是沒有用的啦我要提醒部長我希望部長上次我們討論的時候我說部長相對年輕應該要拿出魄力我們在整個政府在交通裡面的這個相關的預算隨便拿出來比一條啦你就發現那個落差其實非常巨大捷運工程很重要本席完全同意可是相對來講硬體跟軟體總要"},{"start":13945.72,"end":13958.497,"text":"總要平衡吧你看這個比例差額也是不能看啦每一年我們要再下載當然補助各地方政府協助建設加起來幾千億那是跑不掉的但是相對來講你整個全國客運的補貼加加起來"},{"start":13959.468,"end":13984.831,"text":"不到捷運的一根毛啊這就是問題嘛新政府上任之後我們期待他是有新的思維500億投資在科運業者可能很多狀況改變了你這真的大筆的預算政策方向的大的調整出來的時候我們才能夠大幅度的比如說改善運價的條件我幫科運業者專案加薪這是本席的第一個建議啦但我到現在沒等到從本席就任立法委員以來從看守內閣我就問這個事您上任的時候其實我也提過這個事"},{"start":13985.612,"end":14009.493,"text":"我不曉得這個是什麼時候才會落實但我真的很誠懇的希望交通部面對問題的核心其實就是交通部要不要做一個資源的結構性的調整讓公車這件事情變成交通部的重點業務目標有相應的資源跟人力下去的時候你才有辦法大幅度的改善事情要不然像上次運價調整那個調整搞了一年多溝通就調了一塊兩毛五"},{"start":14010.174,"end":14030.456,"text":"那個跟葉澤泰根本沒有解決問題啊因為那個大部分是由政府吸收所以民眾影響的比較對你為了擔心這個東西那你擔心的時候你政府的我剛剛為什麼講要有個幾百億的預算規模就是因為不要衝擊民眾搭車的情況因為你要養量嘛你不衝擊的情況下你政府當然要下大資源嘛那我講我說下個五百億在全國的公車系統不虧啊"},{"start":14031.016,"end":14055.3,"text":"因為客運跟公車的量養起來也是幫未來的捷運在養量啊也是在減少塞車跟停車的問題絕對划算所以預算的大幅投入我期待交通部可以作為第二個是有關勞動條件的部分我今天點一下後面我們有時間再做討論客運的場站公共汽車的停車場從來沒有在我們的都市計畫或者是區域計畫裡面被深刻的討論但它有沒有需要?它有需要"},{"start":14055.58,"end":14083.487,"text":"因為它是交通節點它也可以改善業者的投資環境也改善司機的勞動環境這件事情如果交通部能夠把它列為重點工作項目在幾個地方先行事辦把這個東西打開也許業者才會感受到我們的政府對這個政策的重視也只有從這種大的方向有魄力來著手才有辦法改善業者倒閉司機缺工的問題來改善公車的品質希望部長可以盡快的提出解決方案可以嗎是 好"},{"start":14084.187,"end":14103.274,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝您委員講得很重要那個停車場真的是他們是找一天過一天算一天所以不可能有像樣的硬體的投資所以我們的駕駛員也不可能有像樣休息空間我覺得是蠻有道理你們研究接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":14111.298,"end":14115.865,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席政府集團首長、管理員、會長、工作夥伴那有請剛才那三位陳部長、陳局長、陳次長好,三位"},{"start":14123.459,"end":14145.856,"text":"部長、次長、局長今天又見面了,再次見面第二次好,今天呢,大概問題就是補足客運價值來維持公共運輸那克服法定障礙引入了PT能力是我的重點其實呢,前面大概部長都回答光了我後面可以更快的推進,來往下看1號,客運的運量不如以往,剛剛部長也說了請問部長,運量沒有上升是乘客不想搭車還是客運車沒有人開"},{"start":14147.523,"end":14156.67,"text":"綜合因素啦綜合因素缺價值也是因素嘛好往下看那麼目前統計你們的報告說客運價值缺額超過2000人那缺額沒有補足會造成什麼樣的惡果"},{"start":14158.92,"end":14181.421,"text":"缺額如果沒有補足它的路線就少嘛它的班次就少那當然班次一少民眾願意搭乘的意願當然也就降低那它整體的營收也跟著會降低然後所以說我剛剛在聽你講話我都把你的速記筆記都記好了班次不足人數不夠班次減少民眾選擇四人運劇載客量下降客運業就虧損對不對那這二運行循環怎麼解決"},{"start":14183.451,"end":14201.368,"text":"你們有做嘛你們是說第一你們把駕駛人的年齡從65歲提到68歲對不對已經在開車了讓他開更久一點另外一個呢開始培養那個培育就業補助等等是不是這樣是好那延長開車年齡這個我是認同啦因為目前國人的健康情況都很好其實呢這個68歲他其實開車很穩我OK的"},{"start":14204.611,"end":14230.291,"text":"但是這些培育出來的人到底有沒有去上班啊還是他上了沒幾天就跑掉了新培育的人原來在開的人你讓他開久一點可以延長一年對不對那些要引進來開車的人有留得住嗎往下看有沒有留住我們希望能夠留得住啦表示很難留得住嘛那剛剛就整理了幾位的嘛工時長、無貪性、心情差、壓力大是不是這樣子"},{"start":14231.813,"end":14250.255,"text":"這是目前我們客運車駕駛遇到問題部長也認同嘛那這問題怎麼辦呢往下看其實你認為客運業啊它需要哪種人力是尖峰的運量都需要人力多還是離峰的時候當然是尖峰當然是尖峰好現在問題來了過去我們傳統的客運駕駛呢它的車輛是固定的"},{"start":14251.637,"end":14273.092,"text":"離峰的時候少開班次 尖峰的時候全軍出動這時候你覺得他拼多少駕駛 他是不是要跟車輛一樣多的駕駛甚至要更多一點 因為要輪班休息嘛 是不是這樣所以客運的駕駛他們維持的司機人數 全職的司機人數其實有一半的時間是沒有在上班的 但他綁住"},{"start":14274.173,"end":14301.432,"text":"所以其實有人就提出那可不可以用PT part-time的人力我在尖峰的時候把這些來兼差的一天只上工3小時的我請他就那尖峰的3小時來投入車子閒置我沒問題因為車子要保養人我不能閒置需要的時候再上工可以嗎可以使用PT的人力嗎有沒有法規上的限制目前法規上好像還沒有允許可以用part-time的嘛他具備資格他一天上班4個小時不可以嗎"},{"start":14303.204,"end":14321.789,"text":"這個其實是屬於就是說勞用條件而且是業者跟駕駛之間的這個契約的約定是的來為什麼要請次長來次長就來啦其實今天柯業者想要採行的不同於傳統的全職僱用制他就是說他需要一些part-time的人力來應付尖峰時段的駕駛的人數需求"},{"start":14323.109,"end":14342.951,"text":"你們有限制嗎?法定人數有限制嗎?報告委員,就勞動部業管的部分勞工到底是從事全時工作還是部分工時然後用他的採薪的月薪、時薪、日薪這些都沒有限制只要他符合勞動法令的規範所以現在業者沒有採用的原因他們對於法令不了解有這些彈性"},{"start":14344.012,"end":14368.45,"text":"業者不瞭解 受雇者也不瞭解 受雇者覺得我吃一個頭露來 部長現在請你來齁其實我發現呢 從今天談的烏貝伊迪達 福潘達啦 還是這些多元計程車我發現年輕的工作者 他們傾向的是什麼一天兼三份差 他不要綁在一個工作上8個小時 12個小時他希望呢 我有彈性 今天上兩份工 明天上一份工你覺得是不是年輕人現在比較希望這樣"},{"start":14370.103,"end":14391.415,"text":"還有另外一種已經是退休的人他其實呢他的經濟條件不錯可是他覺得閒在家裡沒事幹那我年紀大了我也不可能做8個小時我來做4個小時3個小時你覺得有沒有可能這樣的那個中高齡就業的部分有沒有市長有沒有中高齡就我們不鼓勵退休的人他回來再做個兩三個小時支不支持"},{"start":14392.185,"end":14415.481,"text":"我們基本上都不反對所以問題來了部長往下看所以今天我們要解決要提升客運的運量要先解決司機慌那我覺得目前我們客運業者他們可能對法令的彈性不夠了解或者交通部要協助他們因為現在想要當駕駛的他不想要一天8個小時12個小時綁在公司"},{"start":14416.221,"end":14445.078,"text":"同樣的有些退休的人他還能力可以開車但他沒有辦法坐足8個小時你覺得未來我們的長途客運駕駛接不接受這樣的人力報告委員我們現在在法令上面並沒有規範說不行對但是你們沒有積極的去幫他們開發你們與其辦培訓課不如協助各客運業者怎麼樣去找出一種僱用模式所以我請交通部跟勞動部針對徵聘PT人力就業者的成本跟勞工的權益進行研議上個月內提出說明報告可以嗎"},{"start":14446.245,"end":14450.423,"text":"好 那另外一個呢 給我們一個對象 什麼人很想要一個part-time的工作"},{"start":14451.892,"end":14481.552,"text":"假類農民怎麼講他已經是領中生後的退出役官兵了他可能還40幾歲50歲啊身體還很好啊可是你叫他怎麼樣去看公寓大樓嗎你叫他去賣當三寶嗎賣零骨塔嗎他覺得我每天跟人接觸我還可以覺得退休很有意義像這樣的退出役官兵我跟退服會問過他們很樂意輔導他們來轉職做長途客運業交通部要不要跟退服會研究一下擴大招募PD人力找退服會一起合作"},{"start":14482.352,"end":14483.974,"text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":14518.373,"end":14519.34,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":14529.141,"end":14555.559,"text":"好部長好部長我們今天討論這個大型客運的短缺駕駛短缺的部分其實這是各行各業都有這個缺工的問題那其中我有看到你在今天的報告第三頁裡面已經有考慮要引進外籍的人力納入橋外生的這個呃擔任這些相關的工作嘛齁但是我們現在假設如果說以橋外生來講的話他有小客車駕照"},{"start":14556.53,"end":14582.651,"text":"那他要能夠獲得不管是大貨車駕照或者職業大貨車或是職業大客車駕照的話他都至少還要再幾年兩到三年一到兩年不等訓練的時間啊跟委員報告那個小型車要有一年到這個大貨車然後大貨車再一年到這個大客車但是如果說是小型車也有一個管道上駕訓班一年可以直升這個大客車"},{"start":14583.371,"end":14607.108,"text":"我們這個規定是不會因為喬拜森而修正嗎?不會不會所以說即便是這樣子的話那這樣子我們最快你也要一年之後而且你現在勞動部其實還沒有同意對不對?他們已經在進行法制的過程但是什麼時候可以?年底今年年底就可能有望通過或解套是不是?"},{"start":14608.793,"end":14630.029,"text":"來補充說明一下因為我覺得兩個部分一個是現在缺工的狀況那之前也有人提過說有沒有可能用外籍的駕駛那當然民眾會有疑慮可是你們現在也已經研議並且也認為是說這安全性上來講是沒有問題的報告委員今年8月勞動部有做討論那9月份在國發會那邊也整體會有一些共識"},{"start":14630.789,"end":14652.709,"text":"未來針對中階人力我們是鎖定在喬外申而不是一般的外籍人士因為喬外申他一定有工作報告裡面寫得很清楚有讀書他會比較融入本地的生活未來這部分我們在年底以前會把相關的法令建制修好修好之後就可以開始處理要處理之後就是剛才委員所"},{"start":14653.489,"end":14670.444,"text":"關切的畢竟他在國內從事職業駕駛他要有職業駕照所以說最少即便是今年年底都很順利的狀況今年年底但是他也要明年年底才有可能取得大客車或大貨車的駕照對不對最快"},{"start":14671.084,"end":14698.133,"text":"那這樣相對來講我們至少還有一年多的時間而且你開放了橋外生橋外生到底有多少人願意投入變成駕駛其實還不確定因為如同我們今天的報告來講就說我們現在的駕駛不管是公路客運其實有缺員差不多2000位2000多位而遊覽車客運也是2500到3000大貨車也有缺員的狀況但是實際上我們本國人拿的大貨車或大客車駕照的人還是多"},{"start":14698.653,"end":14699.153,"text":"國道客運上來講其實缺"},{"start":14714.891,"end":14731.327,"text":"駕駛的狀況很嚴重但是我們也想說因為國道客運跟一般客運比較不同的地方在於是國道客運他就一定要每個人一個座位他不能有站位那也變成是一台客運尤其本期最近我們林口地區很多人的這個反應是無障礙的巴士"},{"start":14732.028,"end":14760.134,"text":"他一個低體盤的公車座位只有22個所以他變成是說他22個坐滿之後就只能下一班但是缺員的狀況很嚴重駕駛員少有車發不出來那尤其在通勤時間就會造成說塞...就會造成是說他塞在那邊沒有辦法等很多班才能找得了是 沒有錯那部長過去到現在也有人提過要有沒有可能開放雙層巴士的空間我知道在之前"},{"start":14762.167,"end":14789.409,"text":"2023年的時候交通部有討論到時候否決當時否決的理由是認為說考量安全沒有開放不討論開放這個是交通部路政司的專委那時我也認為沒有錯如果說真的安全的話我們一定要考慮安全但是再拉過回頭來我們再去看其他世界各國確實也有些國家他是有開放雙程巴士上國道或是相關的快速道路的"},{"start":14790.109,"end":14812.238,"text":"那如果說其他國家有這樣的狀況那我們再反思我們現在講有沒有可能以事辦或者是限定路程的一個方式來做雙層巴士的一個開放因為這個是在今年3月我特別查了一下資料很多人在呼籲桃園在2023年去年就呼籲中央要開放雙層巴士上國道"},{"start":14813.138,"end":14831.298,"text":"今年2024年張善政市長他還特別講到說希望中央開放外籍司機跟雙層巴士上國道那我今天已經看到你們已經嚴議開放外籍司機等於是喬外申已經開放這部分了那另外一個部分雙層巴士"},{"start":14832.159,"end":14848.366,"text":"我覺得如果說我們怕安全的問題能不能雙層巴士設定時速他可能最高不能超過國道的一個標準比如說國道就是100公里他最高再怎麼踩他就是踩不過100公里那第二雙層巴士能不能在通勤時間能夠開放"},{"start":14850.595,"end":14870.022,"text":"比如說早上6點到9點這段時間是允許國道客運他們用雙乘巴士讓我們這些要通勤的朋友能夠有多的這個運量回來的時候也如此那第三我覺得更重要的是因為他是協助無障礙空間的駕駛他等於是多一倍嘛"},{"start":14872.128,"end":14892.218,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的可能性委員我想你的這個想法很好就是說在缺工的狀況底下在尖峰的時段如果可以一台車載運量更高的話多一倍的人力嘛對當然是可以因為現在缺工駕駛員少那這也是不爭的事實而且很多人是離開了這個行業之後他不願意再回來"},{"start":14893.498,"end":14912.147,"text":"離開的多進來的少對不對所以這個是個解決的好的方案不過我想我們內部先來討論一下安全性的部分尤其是國道因為國道的對於安全性的要求相對高當然剛剛有提出幾個前提或許可以做一些限制如果安全性符合的狀況底下或許這是可以考慮的方向或者是短程的範圍"},{"start":14912.967,"end":14937.925,"text":"譬如說假設桃園到雙北地區就是以區域性來講因為北北基桃是一個共同生活圈也許北北基桃內的國道客運可以用雙層巴士中張頭可能中張頭可以那我就不存在一台雙層巴士從台北開到高雄是沒有這樣的一個選項但是至少北北基桃可能可以試辦雙層巴士在北北基桃範圍內中張頭、雲嘉南、高高屏"},{"start":14941.528,"end":14957.547,"text":"用生活圈的概念但是把國道串聯那還有更重要其實如果說真的能夠推動的話就減少一台公車嘛我兩台變一台嘛我的空間釋出來嘛空間可能會更多的一個運用嘛那兩位駕駛變一位駕駛嘛"},{"start":14959.429,"end":14982.701,"text":"能不能這樣子演繹部長我想這一個部分就是相對專業而且也是苦民所苦那也是來了解大家心聲是不是召集一下一個月內開個會大家來討論一下吧然後最重要的是因為國外也有這樣的一個案例能不能找國外的經驗一起來談安全最優先考量但是以安全為前提的情況下我們用事辦的方式有沒有這個可能"},{"start":14983.474,"end":14998.673,"text":"我是建議是不是給我們一個月的時間一個月沒有問題我們有提到說國外有這樣的情況但是據我們所了解的部分我們看國外雙重巴士大概就是跟臺北、高雄、臺南這樣觀光巴士嘛觀光巴士就是在平面路段的一個部分"},{"start":14999.133,"end":15023.753,"text":"那真的就我們目前這邊是比較少看就是說在上高速公路因為高速公路的速限最起碼就是這一個60以上所以這些相關的資訊我們先這一個蒐集一下那第二個部分的話我也跟委員報告一下即使是double take的這一個雙程巴士的話它的容量絕對不是這個當成的兩倍但一定是比一台巴士人多嘛對多一點但是"},{"start":15024.994,"end":15041.182,"text":"這裡面的一個就是說相關的一個重點的一個部分的話大概就是兩個課題一個是重心的高度跟速度上面的部分這個我都理解所以我才會講是說是不是速限有一定的範圍如果說好做可能你過去就不會否決嘛"},{"start":15041.442,"end":15066.756,"text":"但我現在講的是說因為現在面臨的狀況還有就是現在人口成長越來越多生活圈大大的需求所以我才會考慮說是不是用事辦的方式來討論好不好我們來收集足夠的資訊再來跟委員報告好再麻煩一個月有相關的資料那我們要繼續追這件事情因為這關心到我相信這招我一定心有戚戚焉嘛桃園中壢的鄉親好朋友也會有雙北的需求啊"},{"start":15067.436,"end":15075.702,"text":"這其實大家都有這樣的需求啦甚至等下中章投說不定也都有需要嘛好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪委員接下來有請 唉唷 科技設備啊好 接下來有請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":15105.623,"end":15110.084,"text":"謝謝各位 有請書發部林次長好 林次長這裡顯示的是委員好次長好 今天我是要來糾舉一件事情是書發部你們自己可能被騙了而且全國人民都被你們騙了你們的通查網我想要通查詐騙集團可能要先通查一下自己"},{"start":15136.249,"end":15160.164,"text":"在先前呢你們可以看到這個等一下現在這個畫面等一下這個AI現在暫時在播放投影片的時候幫不太了忙這個沒有投出來對不起時間先暫停一下抱歉可能這個數位世界沒有因為他這裡的螢幕跟這裡是不一樣的對有沒有"},{"start":15167.967,"end":15180.556,"text":"對不起喔稍微對我們現在在不好意思在時間先暫停一下我們今天這個議題很重要電腦都緊張了不好意思"},{"start":15206.89,"end":15213.76,"text":"好 可以了當然我不知道等一下可不可以進行但沒關係 謝謝時間可以繼續謝謝召委也謝謝次長"},{"start":15215.868,"end":15239.514,"text":"這件事情通茶網10月14號的時候我質詢完以後速發部火速下架我們本來以為這是一個負責任的態度你們說結束公測下架精進嗎在此跟各位告知大家都被騙了通茶網還在幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的資料全部還在網路上面甚至我們用戶還可以登入"},{"start":15241.354,"end":15258.309,"text":"這種假性下架的做法到底是在騙誰到底是在騙誰這是誰的疏失所有幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的圖片、文字現在都還收羅在網路上面在增加詐騙集團的搜尋排序嗎在幫他們抬轎嗎這些網站、網址"},{"start":15261.371,"end":15290.088,"text":"理論上都不應該由速發部去備存還要來幫他們加分這裡面有很多隱私、很多侵權、很多違法甚至情色小說在上面的這些風險結果咧所有的網站內容全部現在是被Google收羅完全都還在我今天為什麼要接我自己的電腦是因為待會還有時間我直接表演給你看全部都是在網路上面每一頁都可以連結"},{"start":15291.645,"end":15298.111,"text":"現在這些你說下架了結果這些網站都還在用的是哪一台主機用的是誰的錢你知道這個網站還在嗎"},{"start":15300.127,"end":15319.846,"text":"是我想委員您是專家這不是專家的問題你們10月13號的新聞稿說已經下架了在開發的時候一定會經過Alpha Test還有Beta TestAlpha Test通常就是現在到底下架了沒然後我們接下來會做公測然後我們現在已經做完公測以後我們10月14號的新聞稿下架了"},{"start":15322.889,"end":15349.131,"text":"現在到底下架了還在嗎如果說委員我們所謂的下架是在Apple App Store還有Google Play上面我們已經下架了現在所有網路資料都還在為什麼不關機為什麼網頁不移除我想你是專家你一定知道就是說在軟體界就是這樣子運作的就是這個App在做進行公測的時候我們已經從App App Store下架以後那原來的使用者還是可以繼續使用而原來這個使用者繼續使用的話"},{"start":15350.712,"end":15365.624,"text":"其實他這些我們現在看到這些詐騙資訊我們是會進行處理網頁全部還可以連您可能沒有搞懂我的意思所有的網頁都還在用戶還可以登入不是APP我說的是網站"},{"start":15367.997,"end":15372.239,"text":"網頁還在沒有關係這會造成什麼問題這會造成什麼問題你們都在幫詐騙集團的網站抬轎加分增加他們的搜尋排訓中國大陸的詐騙網址現在列在你們速發部產業署的網站上面然後呢我們搜尋了什麼"},{"start":15388.086,"end":15394.769,"text":"當沖班長這個詐騙集團已經被金融金管會已經驗證是詐騙集團結果現在搜尋當沖班長會出現速發布的網頁結果前一天晚上搜尋其他真正詐騙集團的網頁排序節節升高"},{"start":15404.372,"end":15420.829,"text":"你們這不是在幫他的SEO抬轎這是什麼我原本講的齁譬如說那個就是有仿冒名人的這個網站那仿那個仿冒既然是仿冒名人名人他的網站當然還會在我還沒講到仿冒名人我講的是詐騙集團的網站被列在你們的官網下面這是一種抬轎的行為喔"},{"start":15423.832,"end":15441.595,"text":"只要列在我們官網上面我們就會通知這些網路廣告平台包含Meta包含Line包含Google通查網已經下架但是列在你們速發部的官網啊還有你剛剛講的侵權的、冒名的問題有些主持人的名字都還在"},{"start":15442.676,"end":15453.607,"text":"還在你們的官網上而且把他們的名字跟這些詐騙字樣連結在一起這樣有沒有侵害民眾的權益呢好再來我們看10月14號你們發了新聞稿開了這些說明說下架了結果咧10月18號"},{"start":15461.374,"end":15489.629,"text":"哇!賴清德總統的網站被YouTube被檢舉你們還幫他改欸還幫他驗證欸結果咧我自己檢舉另外一個假罵我的名字的到現在沒有下文啊這是什麼差別在於這是什麼演算法如果說有人就是仿冒那個委員的身份的話事實上這就是我們這個網站通報查詢網的目的那我們會盡快的要求LINE還有那個Meta還有Google他都跟我們簽了"},{"start":15491.971,"end":15507.047,"text":"市長您不要激動我在講的是這整個網站所有詐騙集團的資料網址、連結、文字、圖片現在通通在速發布的主機裡面"},{"start":15508.608,"end":15536.551,"text":"我沒有在講蘋果我沒有在講大公司是你們的團隊你們的廠商你們的計劃我再講一件事情我已經提了我10月14號說不應該違法收入這些人的圖片你沒有權利結果呢你們的工程師下架以後持續修改就算了他說我把圖片打蒙啊我保護人權啊結果呢程式碼打開來一看原圖還在"},{"start":15538.291,"end":15561.031,"text":"他幹嘛?他是這麼愛這些圖片嗎?原圖還在,他只是用前端特效,這怎麼回事啊?四百多位的公眾人物列入我們的白名單保護機制,我們都會取得他的同意這個不是我們片面跟他,就是取用他的那個照片所以你有取得賴清德總統的同意提供資料?你有取得朱楚文的照片的資料?"},{"start":15561.431,"end":15570.071,"text":"你有提供同意你有取得吳淡如小姐的資料你有取得她的同意你有取得她們的同意把她的名字在速發布的官網跟詐騙兩個字綁在一起"},{"start":15572.133,"end":15596.04,"text":"我們是把那個仿冒名人的詐騙所以我說你們這樣的說法就是在騙下架了還在各位委員報告我們沒有在騙我們是在反詐騙我只問了下架了沒網站不是下架了為什麼還在為什麼還可以登入我們說的下架是從App Store跟Google Play上面下架沒有啊你網站現在是這樣寫的啊你網站現在是寫說下架啊"},{"start":15600.121,"end":15618.908,"text":"結束公測啊,不是嗎?我們現在打開看嘛,結束公測嘛,什麼功能都不能用嘛,結果咧?全部還在啊,我現在每一頁打開,全部是詐騙集團的資訊,全部是詐騙集團的資訊,都還在啊,我現在即時連給你看啊,哪裡下架了?"},{"start":15619.713,"end":15635.799,"text":"市長你說哪裡下架了APP STORE下架了你說公測結束是你說公測結束下架精進是你說通查網會精進改善網頁設計是統一名稱不會宣傳並下架測試網不是嗎這不是還在嗎APP STORE下架了是"},{"start":15640.728,"end":15662.279,"text":"那網頁為什麼還在因為我們這個系統不能停止因為我們每天都在面對詐騙我們這個網路你們這些資料記錄在這裡就是在幫詐騙集團搜尋排序啦我告訴你啦我現在直接列給你看這些全部是齁我們直接看我們搜尋當沖班長底下全部都是詐騙網頁當沖班長詐騙下一頁"},{"start":15666.101,"end":15675.849,"text":"你們現在啊政府部會的網站排序都很高啦速發部速發部就在這裡第二頁你是在幫當沖班長廣告嗎"},{"start":15679.811,"end":15686.775,"text":"你是要幫他抬轎嗎?當沖班長我不知道但是那個我直接告訴你為什麼詐騙集團要這樣做啦你看這些高中的網頁啦他們都被入侵啦這些公家部門的網站對詐騙集團來說是最寶貴的"},{"start":15696.9,"end":15725.405,"text":"因為如果可以跟你們連接在一起它的關鍵字就可以提升排名如果說到我們這個網頁上你就會看到那些就是詐騙我們都會在上面登記就是詐騙我問次長一句話所以這些網頁都要一直留在這裡嗎?色情小說要繼續留嗎?色情小說要繼續留嗎?當中班長要繼續留嗎?這些網頁上面會標示說哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙這些資料當然要留在我們網上上這樣民眾才會知道哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙你覺得不用下架喔?"},{"start":15726.045,"end":15726.065,"text":"市長,這個"},{"start":15745.11,"end":15771.98,"text":"是有違法疑慮的你們這樣子的說法是有不誠實疑慮的我們已經到地方法院幫你們公正這些頁面的存在也許一個小時之後你們員工機器就關機檔案就刪除了這件事情是錯的請不要用這樣的方式在這裡辯解我們已經幫你們做事情了我們一起來協作好 數位部好好去研究一下"},{"start":15777.418,"end":15802.724,"text":"好 接下來有請賴會員委員發言謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長還有公平交易委員會李主委"},{"start":15806.042,"end":15830.99,"text":"我想在這裡先跟主席那個請教一下就是我們外委員會大概有幾分鐘執行的時間今天有宣告4加14加1那如果議題沒有講完我還可以再延續原則上不行我這邊會決議好謝謝你好謝謝主席謝謝那在這裡我首先先請教這個我們公平交易委員會那個"},{"start":15832.984,"end":15855.609,"text":"李主委那我想就是說最近就是兩個外送平台合併的一個這個議題其實在我們整體的社會裡頭就是灰灰騰騰那關係到就是民眾跟外送員跟餐廳雙方的一個受害到底是Uber Eats還是就是併購那個Hubenda"},{"start":15857.05,"end":15878.924,"text":"這個對民眾跟外送員跟餐廳三方面的一個受害我想主委你也關心到了這個議題那如果我們從6月份就是外送產業工會的代表他們提出來就是說從這個最早期臺灣每一張這個單子就是我們的外送員可以分紅到110塊到130塊到現在僅剩下30到40塊錢那是過去的四分之一"},{"start":15886.569,"end":15894.053,"text":"可是在調整前面卻沒有跟外送員做好良好的溝通我不知道主委對於外送員權益受損的問題是不是你有達到監督的責任"},{"start":15902.678,"end":15921.897,"text":"在我們審查這兩個外送平台結合當中勞動條件的改變情形也會列入考量也會列入考量那當然是要列入考量那所以就是說合併審查案裡頭的評估那在這裡我要特別跟主委請教一下就是說"},{"start":15922.938,"end":15939.184,"text":"其實戶外的集團向來並沒有非常遵守法規我們知道到現在為止他們還沒有幫外送員就是去保這個勞保我不知道你知不知道這個議題我有知道這個消息你知道了多少"},{"start":15940.618,"end":15954.013,"text":"這個部分有一些訴訟那跟委員回報就是說外送平台他依法該有什麼作為不該有什麼作為我想這如果涉及到影響競爭秩序公平交易法可以處理的問題"},{"start":15955.134,"end":15974.752,"text":"被剝削的問題其實是已經存在了那這個存在了以後就是說我們相關的部門大家就是把它列為就是一個商業的競爭這個會讓我們這些外送員會覺得就是說政府的沒有作為然後對政府失望會不會有這樣的一個感覺"},{"start":15975.333,"end":15995.952,"text":"我想所有的事業在經營業務都要符合競爭秩序所以在經營過程當中如果有影響到競爭秩序維護交易秩序那這個有沒有影響到不幫外送員那個頭保那個勞健保有沒有影響到他的競爭秩序最主要是一個競爭秩序的一個考量好"},{"start":15997.362,"end":16006.257,"text":"顯然主委你沒有很正面的回答這個問題啦齁那在還沒有合併以前就這樣外送會這個惡意的漲價你有沒有去阻止他呢"},{"start":16008.122,"end":16034.182,"text":"各事業去調整他的服務價格喔如果是個別基於他的營運考量去調整價格這個是市場的一個這是市場的一個基準如果是聯合聯合壟斷要去調價那這個在公平法一定有重罰那基本上這兩個兩個平台就是聯合就是他把外送會、服務會都整個一起漲價啦難道你不知道嗎我們知道他有調整價格的情形但是"},{"start":16035.964,"end":16054.854,"text":"如果有這個聯合兩個平台合資共同合要一起漲價這個公平交易法會有處罰的機制如果是個別定價主委我覺得你要去正視這些問題他們就是聯合的漲價這個你查了馬上就非常的清楚會看到這個問題主委你請回交通部長"},{"start":16061.172,"end":16083.87,"text":"部長就是最近我們有公告那個就是外送平台匯率的一個公式其中也有提到就是說在這個平台裡頭我們要等待匯用還有就是樓層匯跟印匯我們都要加收那這個加收的過程包括沒有一定要加收那是得未來的計價可以加入但不一定要加入"},{"start":16084.11,"end":16099.119,"text":"好 不一定要加入那你有沒有就是說在這裡頭我們看得到就是說交通部他你還在那個研討就是有配套的一個措施是不是要收那你多收的這一些費用要給誰"},{"start":16100.04,"end":16119.829,"text":"要分配給誰報告委員交通部在處理的面向只有針對運價的透明化運價透明化也就是說它裡面該有什麼樣的項目那應該怎麼樣的定價運價透明化的公式是這一次交通部要推展的一個部分那針對未來的定價的部分到底怎麼定價是由消費者"},{"start":16120.589,"end":16139.459,"text":"跟那個外送員的工會跟業者平台業者還有地方政府還有這個公路局大家會來共同來擬定跟商討那未來也只會定上線不會有下線那未來的這個收費完之後至少先做到透明啦透明完之後才能討論下一步他們怎麼分配的問題好"},{"start":16140.399,"end":16161.756,"text":"部長透明了以後我們就是說業者跟工會一起來討論還有消基會共同來討論就是說起碼我們把這個價錢是透明的這個是交通部目前我們在擬定這個修法主要是要讓它透明化因為現在很多的外送員的員工在反映說他根本也不知道實際上收了多少運費"},{"start":16162.617,"end":16178.742,"text":"那我作為一個消費者其實我也不太清楚他是真的免運費還是假的免運費那未來我們希望說整個運費定價上面可以清楚的讓消費者知道也可以讓這個外送員都清楚好 謝謝齁主委那個我請回不是請你坐回位子"},{"start":16180.442,"end":16200.173,"text":"那個我想我在這裡顯然就是說你對這一個兩大平台的一個併購變成市長一家獨大對產業真的有利這一個議題前面我在跟你探討的時候你沒有很正向的在回答我啦外送平台它抽成高合併了以後會不會漲絕對漲它的收費絕對漲那合併了以後就是說"},{"start":16206.858,"end":16223.873,"text":"這個對消費者來講的話事實上就是其實是對我們來講是非常的不利的那如果公平會的態度是這樣的一個態度的話顯然沒有辦法做到公平正義所以這個也是我比較擔心的啦所以我就希望就是說"},{"start":16226.014,"end":16254.554,"text":"換任這個外送平台合併然後我們還要看到臺灣的這個餐飲業被這個外資掐住了脖子這個是我們比較擔心的所以我們也希望就是說主委你從2024年初的一個調查到現在其實幾乎我們在公平會裡頭沒有去主導一個真正的這個公平正義這個我想是不是把這個那個調查在一個月內給本席好不好"},{"start":16255.034,"end":16264.278,"text":"好 我們會後再提供給委員好 謝謝 那謝謝主席好 謝謝賴委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長"},{"start":16282.776,"end":16311.855,"text":"那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔好 李主委等一下還是先在那邊好 等一下部長、次長兩位這個上週我想也有大家談到這個外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責訂所謂的外送運價的這個準則出來那所以勞動部"},{"start":16312.996,"end":16327.912,"text":"所以這些勞權的部分可能還稍微來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看"},{"start":16330.775,"end":16347.918,"text":"從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、充電加收、樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分"},{"start":16349.159,"end":16365.379,"text":"第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望他"},{"start":16366.68,"end":16394.629,"text":"這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的那個報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣的做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟"},{"start":16395.209,"end":16420.644,"text":"跟這個平台業者如何去談那個薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題好 市長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收、放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦"},{"start":16421.204,"end":16438.511,"text":"那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛"},{"start":16439.071,"end":16453.387,"text":"那今天外送權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了就跟現在一樣了"},{"start":16454.148,"end":16470.929,"text":"就說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是"},{"start":16472.11,"end":16494.707,"text":"他到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分支"},{"start":16494.787,"end":16521.582,"text":"那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用"},{"start":16523.183,"end":16551.48,"text":"是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助工會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候工會或者是外送員可以主張自己"},{"start":16552.26,"end":16575.725,"text":"所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少"},{"start":16577.425,"end":16593.51,"text":"餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個加收費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本"},{"start":16594.17,"end":16617.84,"text":"那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這個這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以它是給外送員啦因為這個執行的所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制它先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論"},{"start":16618.894,"end":16647.156,"text":"市長可以這樣理解 錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我先先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問"},{"start":16648.578,"end":16659.858,"text":"運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障"},{"start":16660.287,"end":16689.104,"text":"好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是"},{"start":16689.764,"end":16716.301,"text":"但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估"},{"start":16717.682,"end":16740.82,"text":"因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話"},{"start":16742.361,"end":16771.337,"text":"公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者等於沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情講述上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵"},{"start":16772.437,"end":16790.087,"text":"這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就併用然後就沒事了我們對於結合申報案件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論"},{"start":16790.427,"end":16814.884,"text":"我想這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止委員會現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經"},{"start":16815.985,"end":16824.9,"text":"按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔"},{"start":16828.163,"end":16856.736,"text":"市佔率有超過八成以上對 他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個情況那會不會發生這件事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後臺灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省主席因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成"},{"start":16857.692,"end":16874.913,"text":"阿如果會產生這個結果預判就已經才會產生這個結果你們會同意嗎我們還在看整個結核的因素齁中盤考量那結核他就八成阿不管你怎麼因素他就是怕超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛那他有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮阿一定會阿不是嗎"},{"start":16875.934,"end":16896.592,"text":"還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是要看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢"},{"start":16897.873,"end":16914.175,"text":"然後不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":16918.541,"end":16941.686,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員先做一下宣告待會發言到核心存委員截止的時候休息30分鐘補充能源因為待會怕後面的委員因為今天要問的委員非常多到2到2點多的話有時候亂答對大家不利大概是這樣接下來有請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":16947.639,"end":16971.477,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會、李鎂主委、還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併"},{"start":16974.127,"end":16988.584,"text":"您個人不代表交通部剛剛聽到這麼多的論述兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見"},{"start":16989.465,"end":17018.821,"text":"好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望你能夠聽進去好 這個部分"},{"start":17019.921,"end":17048.621,"text":"好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到"},{"start":17049.701,"end":17068.715,"text":"消息會17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促,針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據,內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長,你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會,你的利益是什麼?"},{"start":17069.901,"end":17084.474,"text":"是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情"},{"start":17085.074,"end":17099.799,"text":"你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲"},{"start":17100.839,"end":17121.318,"text":"不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到"},{"start":17122.219,"end":17143.926,"text":"小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的來客數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利率嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利率三成的業績可能0.5的利率"},{"start":17145.946,"end":17165.565,"text":"這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢"},{"start":17166.306,"end":17193.869,"text":"因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊30塊所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒"},{"start":17194.87,"end":17215.752,"text":"那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎"},{"start":17216.753,"end":17234.209,"text":"所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台"},{"start":17234.91,"end":17257.2,"text":"不夠透明 平台太過黑箱我們應該一起來努力這個部分我希望帶到今天的論述希望大家能夠聽到 可以嗎我們一起為整個外送的產業鏈來努力部長可以嗎可以 我們正在努力好 另外我想問一下部長因為公車不小心發生這些事故的一些案件 層出不窮其中我們對於這個不管是公車評鑑"},{"start":17258.22,"end":17279.928,"text":"或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好 非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實"},{"start":17280.908,"end":17310.148,"text":"那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實他真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?"},{"start":17311.168,"end":17312.209,"text":"所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嗎?"},{"start":17333.744,"end":17358.028,"text":"所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是沒有問題好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17362.816,"end":17366.52,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員接下來有請羅志強委員發言主席 有請交通部長、公平會主委、勞動部次長來 陳部長、李主委、陳次長"},{"start":17389.474,"end":17417.449,"text":"想先請教部長外送平台已經是融入民眾日常生活那事實上政府在監督平台運作和保障消費者外送人權以上就要有更大的責任了那我知道部長你知道現在用外送平台點一份雞排大概要多少錢嗎我看應該都80以上80你太低估了啦我實際測試從立法院研究大樓訂一份雞排要花150元"},{"start":17419.093,"end":17433.642,"text":"一百五十元在現場店家購買是七十五元但是經過平台加價之後就變兩倍那有時候還會遇到一些所謂的那個配送超時、點餐不服的問題"},{"start":17436.292,"end":17451.844,"text":"價格高是一回事品質有沒有到就是另外一回事另外我就要想說現在根據外送平台的營運模式平台是對消費者、店家跟外送員是三方進行抽成"},{"start":17453.866,"end":17469.632,"text":"那首先消費者當然就要支付更高的外送費然後包括現在新的做法又有一些等待計時計加時等待費、樓層費、夜間加成、春節運送那其實成本是一直在往上堆嘛 對不對"},{"start":17470.872,"end":17487.247,"text":"報告委員如果您說的是這次修訂法的那個那個是得不一定會加入但是未來如果大家討論的過程覺得那該加入那到時候再加入現在只有處理第一步就是透明化的部分不過你也知道就是當我們政策其實基本上也是價格引導"},{"start":17488.482,"end":17504.545,"text":"就當你政策有這個方向性的業勢其實通常市場都有跟進的效應這個我想部長應該知道即便是用德那你當然也會開始帶起這個所謂的目前因為在預告期如果大家認為那個應該拿掉其實是可以拿掉的那個不是問題"},{"start":17505.086,"end":17529.867,"text":"第一步我們要達成的是透明化的我先講有些部分我也沒反對啦是必須講但我只是說我比較關切的是說你加了這些東西我們的那個立法的出發點或是我們政策的出發點在哪裡那有沒有辦法落實這個政策出來比方說我們就覺得說外送員應該要多保障一點嘛那有一些加計的費用那你就要有能夠確保保證我們加這些費用它是"},{"start":17531.192,"end":17545.182,"text":"也外送員的不是最後又變成是平台又抽成抽去這應該是部長瞭解我的用意其實在店家方面其實很多店家表示平台抽成比例已經攀升到32到38"},{"start":17548.024,"end":17567.881,"text":"好然後呢如果加上我們剛剛講的還有些什麼上架費啊平台使用費啊出單機費用啊那加上一些這些上漲的壓力的話那當然店家壓力就很大嘛所以他們就有價格上漲的壓力就有可能轉嫁給消費者嘛那這是第一個要考量的層面那第二個就是說我想請問就是說"},{"start":17569.682,"end":17583.645,"text":"目前我們各個部會針對平台的抽成比例有沒有具體的措施或做法避免說店家、消費者、外送員承受不合理的成本轉嫁"},{"start":17585.545,"end":17612.3,"text":"報告委員在交通部的部分只有針對運價來做制定在這個部分目前我們希望先推第一步就是透明化的部分那再來就是說剛剛所講的增加成本或漲價目前並沒有這樣子的議題因為目前並沒有討論一定會漲價而且我們到時候訂定的那個運價我們是訂上限上限意思是什麼呢它可以往下它要用免運費也OK平台業者願意做一個優惠做到免運費也是可以接受的"},{"start":17612.76,"end":17639.811,"text":"我們只是訂上限不要超過這個上限那至於分配的部分那就不是由交通部這邊來管理好那哪些部會分配的部分都沒有沒有管理單位跟我們報告就是現在這個議題對勞動部來講我們關心的是這些外送員的報酬是不是合理能夠做保障那我就講外送員好了所以以目前來看就是因為平台的他的演算法不夠透明所以"},{"start":17640.231,"end":17664.654,"text":"外送員也不知道他拿到的價格是不是合理那以過去的經驗來看陸續一直都在調降所以這是一個不好的方式所以我們也感謝交通部在運費方面如果有一個公開透明的機制未來在這一方面外送員包括工會就比較知道說他整個平台業者所收取的費用的結構跟內容是什麼那我們才有辦法透過外送員"},{"start":17665.695,"end":17688.424,"text":"的工會還有協助外送員來爭取他們的權益把他的基本的報酬能夠獲得到一定程度的保障我覺得次長的回答就很好實際上這就是我們各個部門都要一起來做的像交通部做的前等於是前段對不對你前段定價出來如果透明化做得好對不對然後後段針對外送員的話我們在"},{"start":17689.524,"end":17713.024,"text":"透明化的這個基礎之上的話就能夠多一點就能進到分配的部分啦那當然另外公平會就是大家最關切的說那你要不要准他們那個結合嘛這是三方都要去注意的事情好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅委員好 接下來有請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":17720.748,"end":17731.742,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請我們的李主委好 公平會李主委也請我們的勞動部勞動部陳次長好 主委"},{"start":17739.588,"end":17766.691,"text":"其實我們這次兩代外送平台業者的結合受到很多的矚目如果說你今天立法院多次的委員會其實絕大部分的委員事實上都不贊成合併因為現在不管對消費者權益的保障或者是對於外送員的保障事實上都沒有辦法做確定而且我們也有一些官員剛才我聽到我們的交通部長他是用比較婉轉的方式"},{"start":17767.392,"end":17771.514,"text":"那我直接說在這個未還委員會的時候我有直接問我們的勞動部部長他非常明確的說他反對當然不是他個人反對而是勞動部反對而且他說"},{"start":17786.923,"end":17803.455,"text":"勞動部也發文給公平會表達反對意見因為最主要就是說公會提出的幾個訴求外送平台根本完全沒有辦法達成共識所以不應該進入審查的程序這個次長我講的沒有錯嘛"},{"start":17805.436,"end":17806.658,"text":"那在這樣的一個狀況之下請問一下公平會還要審查下去嗎因為我記得你在經濟委員會回答委員的時候說還要在11月8號再給他們讓他們補件"},{"start":17820.333,"end":17845.952,"text":"所以如果按照現在程序大家對這個合併案有這麼大的疑慮而且都認定這個是真的有獨佔而且也沒有辦法我剛剛講沒有辦法對消費者對外送員提出任何的保障的狀況之下你們還要繼續的審下去嗎我想回報委員公平會是委員制所有的申報案件都要經過委員會去決議"},{"start":17848.786,"end":17863.907,"text":"所以既然有這樣的一個申報案件我們文件齊備之後就要進入委員會去審查所以現在我那他之前就是文件不齊備啊你們還要讓他補件不是嗎所有的申報案件都會有補齊文件的問題那我們"},{"start":17866.229,"end":17871.611,"text":"不只是這個案件,所有案件都有補件的問題現在有一個問題,那請問一下按照你們這個程序,你什麼時候做完什麼時候要給他準博?我們要看他文件準備的情形"},{"start":17882.815,"end":17909.657,"text":"資料越齊備我們的審查的品質就會越高進入委員會所以你現在沒有期限就是讓他慢慢的準備他的資料不會是慢慢給他準備主委你任期什麼時候屆滿主委你的任期什麼時候屆滿我的任期到今年1月31號明年啦明年抱歉明年1月31號所以當你離開之前能夠確定這個案子能不能有一個結論嗎"},{"start":17912.011,"end":17920.178,"text":"我們還是要看這個文件準備的情形還有委員會討論的情形即便進度委員會也有討論的程序而這樣的程序我剛剛講包含勞動部都已經非常明確的表達反對因為這很重要嘛 對不對交通部看起來也是反對嘛然後我們各委員大部分都是反對好那在這樣的狀況之下我為什麼會特別提到"},{"start":17939.053,"end":17963.54,"text":"因為不要這個這麼重大的一個產業的併購你很容易把它變成又是一些政治性的操作因為你們1月底也不只你嘛你們有好幾個委員都到期嘛 屆滿嘛然後又再說因為我們現在有一個問題時間到的時候而沒有做出任何準博他就"},{"start":17966.127,"end":17994.508,"text":"就是通過了沒有意義就表示它可以進行結合公平會從來不會有正規交交那你現在為什麼你們還要好幾個月為什麼你到1月31號還要好幾個月你不能在你的任期屆滿之前把它決定起來嗎我們是委員會制我必須要看整個委員會討論那你們就開委員會啊我的意思委員尤其主委包含副主委都在明年1月"},{"start":17995.569,"end":18001.852,"text":"的屆滿但是這件案子你們如果要拖拖然後呢坐在公民會的人事那你們立法院審不審因為我們也有去審查的一個一個壓力嘛對不對然後你就變成說"},{"start":18012.398,"end":18035.886,"text":"你看最後假釋都沒有把它駁回的話它就自然的變成的成立我們還是依據我們的處理原則依法在處理所以啊主委能不能 這個很容易做的事情嘛你這一屆應該做完的事情你為什麼要拖到下一屆呢我不懂欸我們是委員會制不是首長制"},{"start":18037.335,"end":18043.96,"text":"你們委員會4個委員耶你們7個委員4個委員屆滿耶你們委員7個委員能不能有點責任感啊還在拖這個事情其實大家已經問很多次了你都用這樣做擋箭牌所以你們是怎麼樣想要讓他過是不是"},{"start":18058.71,"end":18062.854,"text":"也無視於別勞動部的反對合併的意見嗎我們當然應該依法但是你可以用技術上的方式幫助他所以我要講的是請我們的公民會"},{"start":18075.665,"end":18087.8,"text":"7位委員負起責任來尤其4位委員都要任其屆滿不要把這一屆該做的事情去把它繼續的去延後有些技術上的問題讓它變成本來大家都有意見最後"},{"start":18092.045,"end":18092.625,"text":"好 謝謝王委員"},{"start":18115.476,"end":18123.323,"text":"其實建買之前要處理這個蠻卑微的要求欸我不知道欸好 接下來請何新淳委員發言好 謝謝昭偉我們請陳世凱部長跟這個陳部長還有公平會主委李主委"},{"start":18141.516,"end":18167.395,"text":"部長好、主委好我再強調一次再公開表示一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併我在上次的總質詢裡面也跟卓榮泰卓院長也表示過那我必須說我一開始在上一次的交通委員會裡面我就要求我們交通部第一個"},{"start":18168.649,"end":18183.283,"text":"也是我質詢讓大家知道說原來我們的外送這個業者是登記在交通部的這個所謂的汽車運輸業的客貨運的這樣子的一個象象"},{"start":18184.911,"end":18207.306,"text":"所以我們推動什麼推動外送平台定費必須透明化所以剛剛陳世凱部長也講我們現在在訂這個規則是讓它透明化那透明化之後呢接下來我們就要要求什麼合理化保障各方權益之下的合理化那我覺得公平會主委你也不要一直說你們只是依法來行事我認為你應該勇於認識為什麼呢因為這個"},{"start":18214.931,"end":18219.294,"text":"2016 UberEats進軍台灣這十幾年來都沒有人理欸就任由他在這個市場上他說要漲就漲他說要怎麼樣就怎麼樣那外送員的這個權益呢就任由平台的糟蹋"},{"start":18232.751,"end":18242.214,"text":"任何問題都是平台說了算那消費者也只能被動的也只能無奈的承受他要漲就漲、要怎樣就怎樣所以運費十幾年來沒有人管理那現在交通部願意承擔要來管"},{"start":18250.037,"end":18264.004,"text":"那我覺得各方的保障如何就定位就是一個最重要的議題囉就如同剛剛今天很多委員都提到這件事情接下來下一頁所以我現在就要問我們陳部長先問陳部長在我們交通部訂的這個規則裡面這個費率的規則裡面準則啦你們新增了八條之一嘛那我就要問囉"},{"start":18275.896,"end":18281.6,"text":"我們外送平台現在外送是用兩輪的啦騎摩托車的啦那過去你們這個汽車運輸業客貨運的運價準則呢是管四輪的啦那用兩輪的跟比照四輪的這個計算成本這個是怎麼來比較合理嗎欸我不知道這你要來適宜喔第二個我們雖然說他的運費"},{"start":18301.474,"end":18317.887,"text":"透明很重要費率的如何的計算基礎也很重要我舉一個例子在你們新增了這個準則八條之一之後呢你們說依據第五條公示中的每車公里什麼合理成本我就要提出一些一般人都在問的"},{"start":18322.326,"end":18327.468,"text":"這個包括油料、燃料、輪胎、車輛折舊、修車、業務、薪資我跟你講,外送平台的外送員車是外送員的車對,沒錯摩托車是你的摩托車摩托車的這個"},{"start":18344.313,"end":18360.191,"text":"維護的成本誰在負擔?外送員對 折舊的成本誰在負擔?外送員那薪資 抱歉 外送員接單不宜嘛所以他薪資怎麼有一個合理的一個計算準則或者是有一個平均的準則"},{"start":18362.346,"end":18383.097,"text":"這數字我不知道你們是怎麼用這樣子所謂的合理成本因為這些每一點都是這個外送平台的營業秘密或者是這些資料都在這個每一個外送員的身上而且每一個外送員他所擔的成本跟付出是不一樣的那請問一下你們的手上的資料到底哪裡來呢又何依據來做這個運費的這個"},{"start":18386.894,"end":18413.636,"text":"準則保護委員四輪的跟兩輪當然都不一樣是啊那四輪的當然車型也不一定都一樣都不一樣 外送也沒有 車型也不一樣那只能抓一個平均值當時四輪是這樣訂那未來兩輪當然也是一樣同樣的準則就是說大家的摩托車價格不一定一樣但我們抓一個中間點或是一個平均值那輪胎大家用的品質也不一樣所以各種方式的計算在機車尤其是兩輪的部分我們要重新來計算"},{"start":18414.917,"end":18439.358,"text":"我們現在第一步先確定說有要透明化這件事要透明化第二步就是來開始計算它的成本大概是在哪裡這個就是大家在問的嘛因為我跟你講各方的權益都要受保障那各方的權益都要受保障的時候我剛剛講的嘛你如果你訂了那個運費的基本的這個依據讓人家有問號的時候或者是你解釋不清楚的時候"},{"start":18440.699,"end":18448.707,"text":"那當然大家就會有質疑嘛是不是所以才問大家現在連基本費基本費電機在哪裡我剛剛講的那些細項啊那續承費、等待費、樓層費、夜間春節加成等等我覺得這個都要一頁的去說清楚而且要合理的告訴大家你是怎麼訂出來的"},{"start":18459.657,"end":18486.329,"text":"委員您這樣說非常的正確啦齁其實我的目標是第一步先處理運費的透明化那至於剛剛在講的樓層費或等待費這些是由外送員工會他們提出來的但未來的討論我們是由五方來討論所以這些不一定會放進去那個是德啦可以討論但是不一定會放進去我知道但是雖然是德可以討論但是有一個德就有一個依據可以討論有這個可以討論未來就會形成這個要收費的標準嘛那"},{"start":18486.969,"end":18506.502,"text":"要收費的合理我相信大家都可以接受那我們現在大部分的人是在於那個合理到底是什麼才叫做合理所以我覺得這個我們主管機關也必須要有責任來去擔起說除了透明化之後那個合理的運費到底是如何計算出來"},{"start":18507.643,"end":18533.573,"text":"收費合理這是大家最關心的一件事而且這個收費合理包括剛剛很多委員提到的平台跟店家該怎麼收費是合理的那平台跟消費者該怎麼收費是合理的那外送員呢他的這個薪資從平台得到的薪資什麼是合理的這個就是兼顧小商家外送員跟消費者我們的初衷就是在這裡不是嗎部長"},{"start":18534.673,"end":18557.21,"text":"沒錯嘛對不對那甚至我還關心到如果偏遠地區呢對不對偏遠地區那又該如何去計價呢那如何才叫做合理那第三個到時候的計價模式消費者然後外送員平台再加上地方政府加上地方政府也就是說每一個地區地方政府也會加入所以每個地區的計價方式可能會不一樣"},{"start":18558.208,"end":18566.61,"text":"所以就因地制宜那天香更要因地制宜嘛對不對第三點就關係到公平會、理事會啦我上次在總諮詢就提出這個問題囉外送平台兩大外送平台要合併案到現在你給他11月8號之前要他補件那如果11月8號他還是不補件沒有補期權好你就沒有審"},{"start":18579.994,"end":18599.707,"text":"沒有審呢那到時候呢等到了你們的人事權你明年1月要到任還有其他3個委員要到任總共就有4個委員要到任那到時候如果到明年1月之前他們補件還沒有完成沒有承讓沒有承讓沒有辦法審所以他就沒有合併可是他也有可能等到你們的人事"},{"start":18601.168,"end":18626.326,"text":"這個人事的這個到任之後呢他在送件,送件了之後呢沒有委員可以審那他會不會變相的就就地合併成功文件齊備以後才開始算審查期間那我們的委員目前編制是7位如果有請假或是缺位等等情形我們是依現有的現有的這個委員數來做現有的委員數如果是叫做"},{"start":18627.407,"end":18629.389,"text":"相對的少數那這個審查有沒有合法這是一個大家的問題那最後我還必須要提醒你們希望大家多聽多方的意見這個交通部在訂定這個費率的時候不管是我要再強調店家、外送員跟消費者"},{"start":18644.747,"end":18672.227,"text":"多方的意見我們都要傾聽而且要適時的雖然你們已經在預告了該調整就調整該因地制宜就因地制宜那主委我再講一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併壟斷台灣的市場這個對國人、對消費者、對外送員、對店家任何一方都是不利的、都是不好的所以主委請你一定要趕快趕快地放在心上"},{"start":18673.305,"end":18679.488,"text":"很多人大部分的人都反對兩大外送平台合併的好不好好以上謝謝好謝謝何委員我們現在休息30分鐘下午2點10分繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":18697.591,"end":18697.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18721.51,"end":18730.555,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18732.467,"end":18736.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":18760.623,"end":18781.152,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18781.152,"end":18811.135,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":18813.629,"end":18830.563,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":18845.921,"end":18847.443,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18862.261,"end":18867.445,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":18895.214,"end":18895.994,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18929.172,"end":18941.439,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":18964.119,"end":18981.051,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18991.297,"end":18995.343,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19013.08,"end":19032.392,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19035.52,"end":19063.268,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19067.585,"end":19090.839,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19097.103,"end":19108.773,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19127.142,"end":19147.864,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19152.637,"end":19179.235,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":19179.955,"end":19197.939,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19209.699,"end":19226.668,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19228.553,"end":19246.553,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19255.459,"end":19266.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19277.619,"end":19303.626,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19305.278,"end":19307.499,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19338.029,"end":19339.378,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19355.538,"end":19379.119,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19385.23,"end":19394.359,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19412.065,"end":19424.467,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19444.061,"end":19446.565,"text":"主席"},{"start":19455.196,"end":19477.107,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19487.295,"end":19515.48,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19523.046,"end":19545.196,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19550.708,"end":19578.524,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19579.645,"end":19580.446,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":19620.014,"end":19630.924,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19634.381,"end":19649.273,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19656.732,"end":19672.103,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19691.154,"end":19702.763,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19712.537,"end":19719.868,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19723.131,"end":19742.119,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19754.207,"end":19758.833,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19763.712,"end":19788.609,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19814.687,"end":19820.572,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19828.489,"end":19849.343,"text":"公平交易委員會主任"},{"start":19856.408,"end":19871.453,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19874.445,"end":19897.142,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19923.819,"end":19928.042,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19944.567,"end":19958.735,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19967.433,"end":19983.977,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19996.753,"end":20002.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20040.013,"end":20041.354,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":20044.036,"end":20067.739,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":20071.962,"end":20073.283,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":20096.458,"end":20096.839,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20122.329,"end":20151.578,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"sta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我們繼續來討論外送平台的運費那麼大家都非常的期待它這個公司是能夠透明化所以因此到目前為止交通部日前預告修正的這個汽車運輸業管理規則 汽車運輸業"},{"start":20687.984,"end":20710.399,"text":"客運運費的運價準則其中最重要的今天大家都非常關心的也就是外送平台的新興行業運價適用規定你們現在是在預告當中作為未來業者在收取運費的依據以及每一筆"},{"start":20714.182,"end":20725.351,"text":"訂單運費並依照每車公里基本運價接運送距離計算其中包含起程費、續程費、得以加計等待費、各個樓層"},{"start":20732.997,"end":20751.864,"text":"樓層費還有夜間加急的運費以及春節運費大概你們目前所預告的是如此所以交通部你們也多方的跟業者跟小保官跟外送平台工會多方的去研討那麼到目前為止外界有說要以60塊為基準"},{"start":20754.865,"end":20777.072,"text":"但是你們立即否決你們立即聲明說還沒有還沒有這回事外送員工會的期待你們馬上說了你們馬上說了你們否認了說還沒有還沒有定案這個我們就是希望這個理性的去討論那請教現在的方向現在的方向會漲價嗎這第一個那你們費率大概討論會什麼時候出來"},{"start":20783.563,"end":20801.421,"text":"報告委員當然我們現在正在那個預告期所以我們的法制的過程都還沒完備所以什麼時候可以有這個所以這個預告非常重要就是大家有任何意見趕快再提出來但是坊間已經有給你一個數字那當然你們否決了我能夠跟委員報告的是說方向"},{"start":20802.242,"end":20814.245,"text":"方向第一個我早上有提過第一個我們是朝透明化的方向來走先把公式先制定出來這是第一個方向第二個方向不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題因為到時候即便是漲價是一個假議題"},{"start":20820.227,"end":20842.977,"text":"對即便是有一個公示公示出來了之後設定的是叫做上限是上限而且沒有下限當沒有下限的狀況底下到時候的業者要收多少費用是在我們上限以下都可以所以現在的免運費還是可以做他甚至可以直接做到免運費這都是他的優惠他的權利所以你是訂一個這個天花板對天花板只有天花板"},{"start":20843.237,"end":20871.702,"text":"所以這個也就是說過去我們外送的費用呢它多數是以供需以供需去定價它有尖峰用餐的時間那尖峰用餐它會比較高那離峰的時候有優惠這個價格那再請教我們訂定的費率會取消優惠價格嗎不會我們只會訂上限所以下限即便是免運費運費算零都是可以接受的"},{"start":20872.102,"end":20883.532,"text":"好 預問算明都是可以接受那麼業者會不會我們是緊張也就是你如果說這個價格的方面會不會轉送到運價轉送到消費者"},{"start":20887.678,"end":20915.047,"text":"目前的審查的機制我們是五方包含了消費者我們大概是找消機會另外就是外送員工會還有平台業者我們也會找還有就是地方政府因為每個地方要因地制宜那最後才是交通部的代表也會參與我們會最後一起來制定那這個部分當然運費的部分對於一個消費者來說他要買一個東西要運然後要製作製作的費用當然是消費者要吸收"},{"start":20915.507,"end":20940.133,"text":"那運費也會由消費者來吸收但問題是我們這次訂的是上限不會讓消費者讓他有超過上限的一個運費但往下是沒有問題的所以消費者的權益我們也可以保障當運價沒有透明的時候消費者到底被收了多少運價其實消費者不曉得所以我們希望透過透明的過程當中保障消費者的權益"},{"start":20940.373,"end":20960.106,"text":"所以如果依照部長你現在的回答是希望能夠達到五贏的這個政策這是理想那所以再請教你們預告之後接下來動作怎麼做什麼時間可以把這個方案正式公告我們現在正在收攏各方的意見你們的時程"},{"start":20961.423,"end":20972.167,"text":"當大家的意見比較有一個共識的時候大概我們就可以往法制化的方向來推進但是這個時程我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員報告因為各方的意見我們還在收攏現在都還不知道你收攏也會有時間啊我到底時間要訂多久啊怎麼會沒有時間表呢"},{"start":20979.75,"end":20996.963,"text":"我們希望能夠盡快但是所謂的盡快比如說我們做任何事情你一定有你的KPI指數啊我收容時間一個月、兩個月、三個月接下來我們法制化我預計要多久因為這個已經是社會面向非常需求每天生活必須用到的"},{"start":20997.363,"end":20999.124,"text":"本集了解內容也就是希望要得到我們就誠如剛剛主席所說的我們一定要知道你的時間點"},{"start":21018.476,"end":21041.008,"text":"你要有一個指標我什麼時候要做什麼我什麼時候要做什麼你不能無限期呀因為這是民眾每一天都會都會都會touch到的部長立法院的委員們大家都很關心都希望趕快往前推進那我們的方向也是希望趕快往前推進你的方向你一定要有制定一個時間點嘛我們剛才在講的消費者也有共識來部長"},{"start":21044.425,"end":21063.034,"text":"請聽清楚大家都在討論因為你現在是預告所以你預告你會有多久時間收集資料資料收集好你要朝向法治化你一定有一個時程表嘛你不能從早上我從早上聽到現在都沒有答案啊 對不對我們不是問你多少錢"},{"start":21064.915,"end":21068.558,"text":"比例多少不是我們只要你行政部門的時間點如果連時間點都沒有那我們今天整天都白問的"},{"start":21074.728,"end":21101.39,"text":"請說明是 跟我們報告預告期間就是說各方的意見的話其實我們收容了所以已經定在下週三10月34號就是把就是說相關的包括這個消基會收容的資料對對對 再做整理那因為整理之後就是說當然因為可能就是要達成共識跟我們原來預設的透明化的目標所以就是說比如說在下週三沒有達成這些共識哪些的起義的課題我們會繼續再做一個開會再做一個確認"},{"start":21103.756,"end":21104.617,"text":"請政府有責任的去規劃"},{"start":21119.229,"end":21138.248,"text":"你10月30我們今天聽到這個聲音預告就是到10月30收集這些資料你們再下一個動作對不對那你請把你們你們接下來要怎麼做的時程也請一份資料給本席好嗎你們去預估一下所以接下來公平會在後面來請你往前"},{"start":21139.91,"end":21164.748,"text":"剛剛交通部長說了他們要訂一個系列在這邊那針對於這個兩大我們的這個烏貝伊跟忽編達那麼是不是會同意現在是在審議中那是不是會同意合併我們在經濟委員會也討論過了很多次所以本席要請教這一段時間努力來你們現在的進度"},{"start":21166.849,"end":21185.091,"text":"到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾會不會合因為民眾所怕的也就是萬一如果怪獸產生的時候那只有一家只有一家他定的價格那沒有人有辦法去控管的時候那民眾會"},{"start":21186.993,"end":21199.618,"text":"達到五輸的這個階段所以要請教你們目前什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾我跟委員說明一下目前是在一個補件的階段那如果補件他補件你的對內在什麼時候補件目前業者我們"},{"start":21204.028,"end":21228.127,"text":"一個月的備奈是什麼時候就是下個月11月8號請他們補件那接下來呢那我們看他這個補件的情形如何如果文件齊備我們就開始算這個審查的期間那文件齊備會再進一步的從這個案子每一方都非常的關心消費者非常的害怕"},{"start":21231.631,"end":21232.054,"text":"如果被這個壟斷"},{"start":21234.778,"end":21261.184,"text":"外送平台人員的一個基本權益這是我們一定要捍衛的一定要捍衛的因為他們太辛苦了但是在這樣的一個情況之下你到底11月8號是你收集請他們補件那你預計會在什麼時候告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意跟委員說明我們是委員會制的所以文件期備會進入委員會去討論"},{"start":21263.465,"end":21284.559,"text":"當然不要跟我講過程你一個社會重大關注的議題你總是不能無限期吧主委 如果以我的認知你是明年1月份任期到吧是不是 我的任期到1月底對啊 那明年的1月底嘛那你會不會在你的任期內去完成"},{"start":21286.445,"end":21315.785,"text":"告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意當然是合一致啊但是你要最終啊你也不能無限期啊這麼重大的一件事情一定要經過委員會充分的討論做出事切的決定當然當然我們沒有辦法去干涉這個內容但是我們要講社會的需求給主委你了解我想我們委員也都了解社會對這個案件的關切那我想責務龐大那既然委員都了解社會的關切那更能夠有積極的腳步啊"},{"start":21316.766,"end":21321.437,"text":"那我期盼能夠在你的任內去告訴社會大眾你們的經過委員會的決議是什麼"},{"start":21327.819,"end":21350.335,"text":"朝這個方向努力好嗎這個案件我們一定會審慎能快就快這是我們向來對於人民的申報結合案因為我們深怕店家、消費者以及外送員他只能夠被動的面對獨佔者所提出的條件那就是陳如本席所說的是武術"},{"start":21351.636,"end":21373.327,"text":"台灣社會不應當有這樣的現象所以我再一次強調因為我覺得我們政府做事情總是要有一個時間點那也不能無限期所以請你們積極我希望在你的任內去完成告訴社會大眾到底這個答案是什麼讓大家安心好不好因為我們現在消費者也很緊張店家也很緊張平台也緊張啊所以 主委"},{"start":21381.636,"end":21397.246,"text":"你的看法呢我想這個案子確實從兩家事業向公平會遞件申報以來各界都非常關切我們對這些其實都了解那在這個程序上文件齊備了該當怎麼處理一定會"},{"start":21401.234,"end":21418.648,"text":"審慎的去處理那在時程上呢因為我們是委員會制度不是首長制我沒有辦法預見當將來委員會討論的情形會是什麼情況情形我們不用我們也不予干預我請你積極開會處理好不好這一部分我們會積極處理好 趕快加油好 謝謝梁委員"},{"start":21428.533,"end":21430.354,"text":"接下來有請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在接下來有請黃婕委員發言"},{"start":21463.339,"end":21472.497,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請公平會李主委好李主委李主委好好打拜託"},{"start":21476.813,"end":21490.52,"text":"好 謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況"},{"start":21494.742,"end":21523.801,"text":"那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件11月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊"},{"start":21525.022,"end":21545.034,"text":"給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟勞僱關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性"},{"start":21545.954,"end":21568.275,"text":"這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你"},{"start":21569.036,"end":21593.513,"text":"可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到"},{"start":21594.153,"end":21615.53,"text":"大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上"},{"start":21617.071,"end":21643.911,"text":"然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎"},{"start":21644.818,"end":21666.56,"text":"我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件"},{"start":21667.06,"end":21687.488,"text":"那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了"},{"start":21690.209,"end":21715.021,"text":"還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這種數位壟斷的問題"},{"start":21717.142,"end":21722.647,"text":"那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們"},{"start":21724.485,"end":21748.688,"text":"把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放"},{"start":21749.008,"end":21775.709,"text":"甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了"},{"start":21776.289,"end":21804.24,"text":"那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷"},{"start":21805.12,"end":21815.262,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":21819.716,"end":21842.553,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊 張家俊委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英 林楚英委員不在陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員"},{"start":21845.675,"end":21864.851,"text":"政政前委員不在高金素梅委員高金素梅高金素梅委員不在葉元之委員葉元之葉元之委員不在賴世保委員賴世保賴世保委員不在"},{"start":21868.51,"end":21893.196,"text":"好 今天登記質詢的委員均與發言完畢做以下決定第一 報告及詢答完畢第二 委員尤浩、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報第三 委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":21896.457,"end":21899.343,"text":"本次會議到此結束現在散會大家辛苦了"},{"start":21905.236,"end":21929.005,"text":"我覺得你個性堅持的有點可愛 佩服佩服 辛苦兩天了再上來一次就開芭比鏡 你看人家等多久啊不過那個我們聽不懂啦 但是有一點點閱率如果往前排要注意一下我不知道會不會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}