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謝謝我們接下來請原民會的副主任委員請報告"},{"start":2465.505,"end":2481.951,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們的鄉親還有我們各機關的代表大家平安原民會在這裡針對國土計畫法的這個公聽會做以上報告63年區計畫法公布以後26萬多公頃的原住民保留地有7層邊境為聯用地"},{"start":2484.079,"end":2497.617,"text":"部落族人幾年做造林使用面臨土地受限等問題造成文化傳承經濟產業發展生技受到影響等困境也造成現在部落的建地不足耕地不足還有公共設施不足等問題"},{"start":2499.188,"end":2519.108,"text":"國土計畫法約定在114年5月1日起全面的上路區域計畫法將不再適用因此本會在內政部研擬國土計畫法立法階段的時候就積極地向內政部爭取應納入尊重及保障原住民族土地相關條文因此國土計畫法第23條明定由內政部會同本會共同訂定"},{"start":2519.775,"end":2540.374,"text":"原住民族土地使用規則本會議也已完成嚴禮原住民族土地使用規則草案並在今年的8月14日已經送到內政部按目前的規劃期程應該能依照國土計畫法第45條的規定在明年的4月30日以前與內政部會嫌公告至於地方政府因作業需求"},{"start":2542.51,"end":2558.214,"text":"將有一些事前需要展演的部分本會原則尊重大宴最終的法案的修正結果最後國土計畫法將有助於原住民族土地使用取得合法本會將持續依循國土計畫法第23條規定及全國國土計畫"},{"start":2561.072,"end":2581.839,"text":"原住民族土地使用指導原則以及尊重保存原住民族傳統文化領域及智慧保護自然環境與人文資產建立永續利用原住民族土地的機制以上報告好 謝謝接下來我們請農業部的胡次長報告"},{"start":2585.379,"end":2611.337,"text":"委員是不是我們容許我們用PowerPoint的簡單來做報告好 謝謝委員還有主席還有各位委員以及我們各位學者專家還有媒體朋友大家早安很高興能夠在徐主席的這個指導之下我們有機會來立法院來做公聽會的報告那首先我們最近這幾個月以來啊這個國土計畫法讓各個地方各個縣市政府有很多的這個"},{"start":2613.427,"end":2630.962,"text":"提問 那我們農民也很多的疑惑所以我們從7月開始已經在全國我們辦了157場的說明會總共有7293位這些相關人員來參加那我們就最近這三個月以來我們到各地去"},{"start":2631.863,"end":2632.203,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":2654.375,"end":2654.555,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2671.023,"end":2695.22,"text":"國土計畫法現在賴總統才上台為什麼急著要實施各位國土計畫法剛才主席已經講很清楚事實上那個是在民國105年1月6日當時馬英九總統所公告的公告之後從當年的5月1日開始實施那分成三個階段第一個階段是兩年我們就是要公布全國的國土計畫的這個公告實施這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":2696.481,"end":2716.753,"text":"2年之後就是在107年5月1日之後3年就是由縣市政府按照中央的指導原則來劃設各個直轄市跟縣市的國土計畫劃完之後公告公開展覽讓農民或相關人員來提問然後來適度的應應之後在"},{"start":2717.794,"end":2744.982,"text":"提到內政部的國土計畫審議會接下來就第三個階段就是在明年的4月30日要完成就是我們要公告全國的國土計畫分區圖另外有農民問我們說農醫跟農是怎麼畫的其實這個是我們各縣市政府按照當地的農業生產的需求畫完之後報給我們中央內政部"},{"start":2746.616,"end":2746.816,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":2764.857,"end":2789.99,"text":"來看其實在國土計畫明年要實施之前其實現在就是有個區域計畫法那區域計畫法我們就設定請每一個縣市政府按照如果你轄下的農地一整塊25公頃以上在這個25公頃裡面80%目前叫做農業使用的話這個叫做優良農業區在平地的地方那如果不是符合這個條件的話"},{"start":2791.271,"end":2813.985,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":2814.646,"end":2838.988,"text":"鄉村區還有我們的原住民的這個居落這個是屬於農事那農務的部分就是我們已經被各縣政府劃定為都市計畫區那個這個我們就把它劃為農務所以簡單來講目前農業發展區有農醫到農務劃設的原則就是如同剛才跟各位先進所報告的這樣的一個原則好那接下來又有很多的農民問我們說那劃入劃入這個"},{"start":2840.27,"end":2844.137,"text":"農地的話農業發展地區的有什麼好處可是各位其實"},{"start":2845.632,"end":2869.948,"text":"在區域計畫法民國61年1月31日開始實施以來不管是藍的政府綠的政府都對於農地還有農民都非常的照顧因此如果有農地從農的話就可以享受完整的三保一金哪三保呢就是農民健康保險還有農民自在保險還有農業保險還有農業退休儲金所以有很多我們65歲以上從農"},{"start":2872.531,"end":2880.788,"text":"加入龍寶15年的每個月可以領8000多塊一年領了將近10萬塊這個就是因為他有農地從農的"},{"start":2882.438,"end":2882.758,"text":"國際上可以發揮我們臺灣"},{"start":2912.158,"end":2937.078,"text":"農產品的優勢所以低利的貸款我們因為農地紅樓的我們就會給這個這長期以來都是這樣做還有在我們PowerPoint的右邊有各種補助比如說肥料的補助農業環境的補助還有農稻田轉之後還有有機產銷履歷大糧倉還有相關的農業設施還有生產區的養殖等等相關的補助還有我們農田水利設施"},{"start":2938.719,"end":2960.188,"text":"農水路改善等等這些的補助都有長期以來一直都有好那下一頁那又有農民朋友問我們說那農業發展地區裡面不同的分類有什麼樣的差別補助有什麼差別告訴各位你只要是在農業發展區裡面的你的像剛才的這些福利的保障沒有差別福利的保障你300億金那個都有"},{"start":2960.788,"end":2972.679,"text":"但是呢我們是按照基礎建設你如果畫在龍一龍二龍三的話按照他的基礎建設會按照環境的特色我們是用堆疊式的來補貼來強化因為這些農地對於我們國家的這些農地的這個數量的貢獻還有對於生態保衛的貢獻對於糧食安全供應的貢獻以及對於我們所有的這些"},{"start":2987.312,"end":2987.632,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3005.334,"end":3025.863,"text":"委員會投入按照他的環境來做不同的投入有一些農民朋友問我們說我的農牧用地本來我在做農業使用結果現在被劃到國土保育地區了被劃進去我就不能夠從事農業了其實這一些有一些面積被劃進去但是我們一直在跟內政部來討論是不是也讓他們能夠從農"},{"start":3026.923,"end":3045.707,"text":"所以我們修改我們的農發展條例讓這些人他的稅制方面能夠繼續因為他從事農業雖然被劃進去了這個是低度的低度的這個可能對國土保育長期來看會有影響可是目前還在從事農業所以我們給予他的這相關的稅務都給免稅那另外我們也給予他可以申請產住儲銷相關的這個設施的權利"},{"start":3048.848,"end":3049.108,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3067.05,"end":3081.682,"text":"說明會的時候有很多人就告訴我們說請問國土計畫法實施的之後我是不是就不能蓋農舍的那我的農業設施是不是就不能蓋的我告訴各位只要農用的話你不要去開這個很大的餐廳去"},{"start":3082.583,"end":3109.703,"text":"在農地上去蓋餐廳或是去蓋工廠那個當然不行可是你如果依照農用的話你隨時就可以來根本不必變更你就可以來申請相關的補助而且還可以繼續來蓋農舍所以這個請各位放心那另外有些人問說那農業設施的興建總面積還有這個規定管制是不是會變嚴其實不會目前的狀況跟將來國土計畫法實施你只要是農地農用的話"},{"start":3110.163,"end":3133.2,"text":"完全按照現在的狀況所以不會有任何改變因為很多農民就很擔心被劃進去的融融融融之後就永遠就要等到5年之後縣市政府才做一個通盤的檢討的時候才能夠變更其實不是這樣子你只要農用完全不受到影響下一個就是有一些人就問說國土計畫法實施了之後這個才華會變大"},{"start":3135.021,"end":3135.141,"text":"主席"},{"start":3159.512,"end":3182.837,"text":"大型污染工廠的開發就是非做農用那這樣的話可能會被罰30萬到150萬這個地區縣市政府他們會按照實際的狀況去開發那另外有刑事責任是什麼呢做一個大型違規還是污染人而致使人家的生命受到威脅我想我們每一個人都不希望因為空氣的污染或者是說有一些違規的工廠在農地裡面那造成"},{"start":3183.277,"end":3183.297,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3202.168,"end":3227.116,"text":"委規或者是故意要去做危害其他人或危害國家社會的事情所以其實違反國土計畫法裡面的相關規定不是像外面所講就會被罰五百萬不是就在圖面上各位請各位參閱那另外最後一點就是有很多人認為說我這個被劃入農會發展區我就永遠變成農奴其實各位這個農奴是沒有土地的或者是過去真的是被這些"},{"start":3228.336,"end":3229.478,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":3244.261,"end":3258.881,"text":"民國63年到現在50年當中其實藍營的政府綠營的政府都很積極地投入照顧農村還有農地這一塊我們在過去已經從105年到現在8年8年當中政府投入了一兆1780萬"},{"start":3260.964,"end":3261.184,"text":"國土計畫法修正"},{"start":3288.866,"end":3300.562,"text":"省議會其實也可以做調整並不是說被變更或者是已經被化設為龍一到龍五之後就永遠翻不了身不是這樣子地方政府會按照社會經濟的進步還有當地的這個"},{"start":3303.493,"end":3303.873,"text":"國土計畫法修正"},{"start":3321.991,"end":3342.653,"text":"合作推動之下能夠把這一些不實的傳言或者是有一些疑問我們可以來繼續來說明讓我們都很清楚而且每一個人的疑慮可以獲得解惑那這樣子的話讓我們在105年當時馬英九總統時代所制定的這個法還有很多我們社會上很關心國土完整性的"},{"start":3343.194,"end":3344.175,"text":"國土保安委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3362.183,"end":3377.537,"text":"今天主要的目的就是要來聽聽各位學者專家以及公民團體還有相關出席的這些委員給我們的指教非常感謝各位希望能夠多多支持也能夠來不斷的來給我們更多的指導謝謝 謝謝各位好 謝謝胡市長那我們接著要請專家學者來發言"},{"start":3389.205,"end":3415.777,"text":"其他單位的報告請大家自行參閱他們都有提出書面那我們會刊登公報那我們接下來請專家學者發言首先本席要特別說明我們現在實施的國土計畫法是在立法院第8屆的立委共同討論之下所訂定出來的"},{"start":3418.139,"end":3431.413,"text":"當時第8屆的時候就三個版本在討論一個是國民黨籍的邱文彥委員提的版本第二個是民進黨籍的林淑芬委員提的版本第三個就是行政院的版本"},{"start":3432.634,"end":3433.035,"text":"秋文彥教授"},{"start":3464.464,"end":3480.266,"text":"謝謝主席在座各位委員各機關代表各位學者專家還有媒體朋友們大家早安非常榮幸引受大院的邀請來參加今天的這個公聽會也特別感謝朝委的這個指派"},{"start":3481.367,"end":3495.702,"text":"我今天因為有非常多的專家學者在場都可以從各種不同的角度來看待這個問題我緊究這個第三階段的國土計畫法是不是延期提供一點個人的前線供大院來做參考"},{"start":3498.378,"end":3514.025,"text":"2009年莫拉克颱風發生的時候中南部遭受到非常重大的損害特別是小林村滅村那個情況非常的淒慘當時我是環保署的副署長曾經到了八軍團去參加聯合救災"},{"start":3515.405,"end":3537.028,"text":"我印象裡中嘉賓委員當時是副縣長也在場所以那種情況在國人遭受這麼痛苦的一個情況山河這麼破碎的情況所以當時的總統馬英九先生就特別宣告了樹定國土計畫法讓家園更安全是政府最莊嚴的承諾"},{"start":3539.338,"end":3561.564,"text":"所以這個我們可以看到國土計畫法的第一條就是明文的這個昭告了我們這個國土計畫法其實是一個框架性的這個法案它最主要的目的一開始就是因應氣候變遷確保國土安全所以維護國民民眾的這個安全但是也促進產業的合理的分派跟資源的保育讓我們國家能夠邁向永續"},{"start":3563.985,"end":3582.279,"text":"所以當時我非常感謝我們有很多跨黨派的委員像高金素美委員鄭天才委員林淑芬委員田秋靜委員還有很多跨黨派的委員共同支持才通過這個法案這個法案其實在民國86年就以國土綜合開發計畫法的名稱"},{"start":3584.401,"end":3608.975,"text":"送到立法院五進五出立法院最後經過了23年的過程當中才在第8屆委員的任期最後一天晚上10點半通過所以是非常非常不容易的一件事情但是今天實施了將近8年那我們有很多的委員還有各界的關心都是我們非常的敬佩我們也覺得有相關的問題必須要去進行處理"},{"start":3610.616,"end":3631.689,"text":"但是內政部也了解這個問題也持續在溝通學者專家也在這方面提供很好的稿件但是今天國土計畫法的實施日期要不要延到從4年變成6年時間會不會太倉促我們可以看到國土計畫法的過去的歷程我們在立法的過程就23年"},{"start":3633.271,"end":3644.405,"text":"實施到現在8年一個國家的法律超過31年還沒有辦法落實我是覺得這個是不可思議的我認為說會不會太倉促從這個時間上面我們已經花了30年的時間超過30年的時間"},{"start":3650.353,"end":3678.978,"text":"但是是不是要延期當然有相關的問題我們必須要去克服但是是不是能延期也是要考量各種不同的因素我提供幾個淺見首先是針對有很多的意見或者提案都提到我們現在的執法還沒有完全發布我想內政部已經有特別的宣告了在今年的12月那麼這個相關的執法會全數發布所以這個部分"},{"start":3679.918,"end":3707.267,"text":"我們很希望內政部這邊能夠盡快的完成相關的立法當然比較重要的像土地使用管制規則現在應該送到內政部的法規會馬上就要進行審查但是有些的從區域計畫轉軌到國土計畫有一些轉軌的辦法可能有點民時不是很相符我舉個例子來講以新北市的鼻頭角到山雕角"},{"start":3708.047,"end":3728.221,"text":"東北角的國家風景區或者是海洋委員會是化成海洋保護區但是我們國土計畫法因為現況的這個原則只能化成城鄉發展地區所以這個是民時不符所以這個轉軌的辦法擁有這個檢討的一個空間我覺得這個部分在未來通盤檢討或者是說通案處理的時候應該要進行討論"},{"start":3735.566,"end":3759.313,"text":"延期會不會造成其他更大的一個問題我比較擔心的就是延期恐怕是鼓勵了更多的農地的違章因為目前為止農地的搶建的情況違章的情況可能更糟糕這個破碎化的情況可能也是更為惡化我們有沒有能力來處理這是一個老問題了所以農地的保護是非常重要"},{"start":3759.733,"end":3760.433,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":3780.083,"end":3807.756,"text":"我們內政部還在審查去會刊的時候發現他已經完工了地方政府也發了建築執照所以這種情況是讓我們非常的擔心農地的破壞可能在後面就是在未來的延續兩年之後我們難以處理那農業補償剛才胡市長也特別講了非常多的一個方案我們希望這個方案能夠盡速定案當然從法律上面我們也有專家學者"},{"start":3808.456,"end":3808.856,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3832.661,"end":3853.592,"text":"已經提出了這個國土功能分區圖如果我們要撤回或者我們停止審查那我們必須要考慮一下行政成本還有這個我們工作尤其是中央到地方各個級的這個專業的規劃人員他們人員的士氣以及公平性的問題各縣市的公平性的問題"},{"start":3854.452,"end":3868.879,"text":"我粗略的估計到目前為止行政的成本每一個縣市大概補助了兩三千萬中央的行政成本大概四億我沒有詳細的數字可能的成本已經超過幾十億"},{"start":3870.08,"end":3893.349,"text":"所以這個延後我們是不是要重來也是必須要去考慮的一個問題所以我的建議目前為止相關的問題不是不能解決那應該是維持說我們現在的這個法律進行來討論也許我們在起算點可以再重新再考慮提前或者以狀況各縣市的狀況來做分批的考慮"},{"start":3894.656,"end":3902.583,"text":"那相關的議題有爭議的時候是不是可以像過去我們在環保署處理這個永陽事業廢棄物的問題因為環保團體認為當地有這個斷層那後來呢當然這個開發業者是認為說沒有斷層那麼最後環保署成立了一個"},{"start":3914.213,"end":3938.539,"text":"專家小組這是爭議雙方的各方推派代表然後最後處理一個用一個大家共同決定的一個方式來處理那最後開花的結果就發現真的有斷層這個案子就終結了所以我認為今天中央跟地方或許互信不是那麼的穩固那也許成立專家小組處理這個議題應該是可行的方法"},{"start":3939.259,"end":3964.974,"text":"當然國土計畫法也特別提到不管是農業、交通、水利等等各部會應該有部門計畫來跟相關的國土計畫結合我們也希望說國土計畫還有一些調整的空間但是可能重要的就是整體規劃是不是可以融合鄉村地區的整體規劃把地方的發展需求也能夠融進去最後幾張照片給大家看一下"},{"start":3966.034,"end":3989.335,"text":"這是日本的北海道大家可以看到它的農業的發展保護非常重要城是城 鄉是鄉這個是我在今年7月到冰島的路上看到巴黎的這個國土你可以看到它們的農地保護得這麼好所以我期待我們在這同心協力追求這個社會跟國土保育的共好第三階段的國土野計畫的延期"},{"start":3990.356,"end":4008.553,"text":"不是唯一的解放所以我個人並不贊成要延期當然在兩個禮拜以後氣候變化的會議要進行討論特別提到說我們負得起的能源跟永續的城鄉所以我們很期待呼應"},{"start":4009.053,"end":4011.875,"text":"國際聯合國氣候變化會議第29次會議團結一致共創綠色世界保護我們國家的農地讓農民獲得合理的對待但是我們的國土計畫應該要儘速讓它實施落實以上是這個前件請大院參考謝謝"},{"start":4036.496,"end":4041.687,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請政治大學地政學系的教授鄭安庭鄭教授"},{"start":4052.821,"end":4079.646,"text":"主席今天所有參與的委員以及專家學者先進大家早安非常榮幸今天可以受邀來參與這個草案的公聽會我在這邊其實要特別謝謝我們主席因為主席其實當時也是國土計畫法的領銜的提案人之一也就是說今天的這個國土計畫我們在推動它並不是由一個單一個或者是單一部門"},{"start":4080.546,"end":4110.349,"text":"他其實是當時是跨黨派而且是很多的部門去齊心協力的那也一路走來也經過了9年的這個相關的一個事件那我今天主要要訴求的重點是因為最近我聽到外界一直在爭執說國土計畫是一個剝奪地方民主的一個這樣子的一個計畫體系那其實我一直都很關心地方父權不管是在經濟部或者是在內政部我在做相關的一個研究的時候我都主張要把權力回歸給地方"},{"start":4111.069,"end":4134.055,"text":"當我聽到這樣的一個說法的時候我覺得跟我的想法有很大 認知有很大的差異所以我今天就針對這個部分來講來跟各位來做報告因為有些東西我覺得是必須要去澄清那剛才其實邱教授講得非常的清楚因為他當時跟幾位委員包括主席在領銜這個提案的時候是因為看到了我們半個世紀以來台灣國土面臨到很大的問題"},{"start":4134.995,"end":4149.283,"text":"第一個很明顯的是氣候變遷我想這個不用贅述我們今年的一個暴雨也不是只有今年我們還有的時候會遇到旱災我們還有很多的地方地勢低滑的地方的民眾他生活上來講會持續遇到這樣的威脅"},{"start":4151.885,"end":4174.825,"text":"農業發展地區的整個秩序長期以來我們也很擔心這個東西會影響到什麼會影響到我們整體的糧食的安全所以各位可能還記憶猶新的話在十幾年前食安問題這件事情它是我們所關切的這個東西會影響到我們所有的家庭對於台灣的農業的信心會直接影響到我們農民的一個收益"},{"start":4175.906,"end":4194.868,"text":"這則是土地使用的一個不相容造成的環境外部性這個就是剛才邱教授他在講到的包括一些在不應該長工廠的地方長工廠或者是不應該住人的地方但是並沒有一個好的一個配套那這個會讓公共設施沒有辦法進去最後由於過去的一個制度他是直接倉促的就實行"},{"start":4195.268,"end":4210.26,"text":"區域計畫在實行的過程當中不像我們現在有這麼多的民主的一個機會去做溝通跟參與所以它對很多的群眾在做土地使用上造成了很不合理的一個現象這個東西在廟宇會出現在原民的地區尤其是"},{"start":4210.82,"end":4231.397,"text":"所以在這樣子的一個考慮之下其實立法院非常感謝立法院在9年前推動了這個整個國土計畫法那它改變了一些事情其實也是我們當時的一個主要的一個目的第一個原本的區域計畫時代它是給每個第一個身份它才不管你這個當地居民你的想法跟生活到底是什麼"},{"start":4232.017,"end":4258.372,"text":"可是國土計畫體系它是其實是主動你先去想我這個地方要怎麼使用我們可以有機會再回來去調整土地使用的一個編制這個是跟過去一個很大的差別一個是從上面畫色土地就是我們學地震的對不起這是我們的鍋我們可能根本搞不清楚你新竹縣這個地方的生活狀況可是我們直接跟你編為農牧用地我們可能直接搞不清楚你這個台中或者雲林這個地方它有什麼生活需求我告訴你這是保護區"},{"start":4259.639,"end":4286.686,"text":"但是未來其實是你地方的對於這個地方你有什麼想像你去先以你的規劃的想像去想接下來再來討論那我們土地應該怎麼做調整所以它的順序是顛倒的但是同時都存在用地跟規劃第二個就是它鼓勵的是整體性的一個開發跟使用而避免零碎性我們看到左邊跟右邊現在區域計畫體系所面臨到的狀況由於它是按照土地去做使用"},{"start":4287.586,"end":4315.942,"text":"有的時候你可以做變更但是變更的狀況之下它不會去看到你整體性的一個發展因此它會出現我們左圖經常看到的一個農地上面來講我們可能中間有一小塊可能就一公頃它做工業使用那另外可能在另外一個部分上來講聚落當中中間有一兩公頃它做工業使用那未來的國土體系它會希望盡量把這個東西稍微推一下稍微推一下能夠讓它做一個整體性的一個規劃跟整體性的一個發展"},{"start":4316.542,"end":4330.578,"text":"防止左邊這樣破碎性的一個使用第三其實也是我們在講到的各位回想一下10年之前其實能業部門也好產業部門也好原民部門也好都有對土地使用有很多意見"},{"start":4331.459,"end":4353.865,"text":"但從來沒有一個機會有一個平台可以像現在大家有一個機制互相對應這中間我特別感謝我們經濟部的一個那個員管局他們的全身工業局其實是第一個他去認同這件事情並且去制定他的空間政策也因此很多地方過去幾年有沒有發現在申請產業區只要你是符合國土的想法都沒有遇到困難"},{"start":4354.785,"end":4379.63,"text":"環保團體對這件事他也比較認同然後政府在推動的五大園區也順利都推動所以過去幾年我們在做產業發展地方在推動產業的時候因為國土計畫這樣的概念已經進入了在這個部分上來講他其實遇到相對少的一個困難那現在據我所知農業部門跟能源部門他也在想說針對國土他去架設一個相關的政策讓各個部會可以溝通"},{"start":4380.39,"end":4399.851,"text":"所以國土它其實是一個比起現在的區域計畫它更動態檢討並且它在一定的管理下它去自由地方自由去運行這中間五年檢討一次這件事情大家可以討論一下也許這個時間可能有點爭議但是剛才董事這邊有講到它的五年值得並不是"},{"start":4400.512,"end":4402.234,"text":"5年前有人在談半導體嗎其實我們知道5年前有半導體可是壓力沒有那麼大"},{"start":4417.233,"end":4439.246,"text":"這些五年有人在談AI嗎 沒有所以世界的變化比我們想像的再想像的還更快因此我其實一直主張要加大地方政府跟地方的民意代表對於整個空間的參與權所以國土計畫其實是在大家努力之下他把權力實質規劃權力交給地方政府以前做區域計畫區域計畫的主管機關跟規劃機關都是中央部會"},{"start":4442.788,"end":4456.744,"text":"國土計畫它是落實地方自治的一個最重要的關鍵這一點我想要跟可能有一些誤解的一個地方好朋友地方政府跟地方的民意代表還有我們立委先做這個報告跟澄清那現在我們的確有遇到一些問題比如說有些地方比較複雜"},{"start":4457.665,"end":4457.785,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4477.336,"end":4491.449,"text":"我個人還是贊成他能夠如期上路因為就像剛才邱教授所講的我們立法院所通過的一個法案我們希望他能夠照我們當時的期程去做但是我們也不忽略技術上我們所遇到的一些問題因此我個人會建議"},{"start":4492.95,"end":4507.157,"text":"針對這三分之二的縣市他如果已經做好準備了他沒有辦法再等下去我們應該讓他有機會去開始地方政府帶著地方的民眾去討論我們未來國土跟空間的分配"},{"start":4507.977,"end":4523.711,"text":"至於如果真的沒有辦法還沒有準備好的這些縣市如果有可能也許是分批讓它上路那這樣子的一個好處是在於什麼呢好處在於說已經照原本期程所完成的這樣子的一個工作它不至於白費"},{"start":4524.392,"end":4553.285,"text":"我們可以看到幾個縣市他已經完成了新竹市花蓮縣他都已經完成了這表示他們已經做好相關的一個準備更重要的是一個計畫如果10年沒有上路的話那其實他一開始所想像的東西跟現在的當前的狀況還會有很大的落差我是比較擔心如果我們再延期的話那連全國國土計畫都必須重做不然這整個的一個未來這上路的情況可能就遙遙無期以上做這樣子的一個報告跟分享謝謝"},{"start":4558.897,"end":4561.12,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請徐宇貞委員"},{"start":4573.672,"end":4587.262,"text":"主席還有今天與會的各位官員還有各位專案學者以及各位委員大家早在民國104年12月的《國土計畫法》立法通過之後因為為了確保國人的糧食安全所以全國劃設了81萬公頃的這個宜維農的這個面積那為了這些農地"},{"start":4593.507,"end":4607.884,"text":"未來這些農地也沒辦法隨意的變更而農地的價格遠遠也不及住宅用地工商用地所以損害農民的權益甚巨加上受規劃的縣市也沒有獲到合理的補償所以連帶的也影響到農業縣未來的發展"},{"start":4610.006,"end":4610.866,"text":"中文字幕剪輯及剪輯"},{"start":4638.353,"end":4638.673,"text":"全國最多優良農地"},{"start":4653.57,"end":4663.938,"text":"為了發展地方很多都為自己保留比較大的彈性盡量減少農醫的畫設標準但是雲林縣畫設了目前雲林縣畫設的農醫的面積高達60839公頃大概佔全國的21.8%而化為農業的面積在26641公頃而這些土地被限制只能做農用而農地的面積畫設過大已經影響雲林縣的未來的一個發展"},{"start":4682.612,"end":4693.587,"text":"所以說是不是我們看一下這個同樣是農地非常多而且是農地的面積也高於雲林縣的屏東來看它的農醫的面積只劃設了5776公頃而農二劃設了61685公頃"},{"start":4700.515,"end":4712.879,"text":"所以我們可以看到這個部分我們要求中央是不是可以有一致的畫色標準是不是如果雲林縣可以比照這個屏東縣的畫色標準的話雲林縣農業的面積就可以從60839公頃減少到5836公頃"},{"start":4717.501,"end":4743.739,"text":"所以這樣子才有辦法減少雲林縣農地被判死刑的面積也才能讓精華土地留下來被妥善的利用所以在這邊也要求我們中央應該是要有統一的畫色標準另外就是農一跟農二的差異其實目前很多農民都還搞不清楚而農業部的具體的補償方案也沒有遲遲公告而且還有我們一些執法也尚未公佈所以"},{"start":4744.279,"end":4764.66,"text":"為什麽會有基層農會也不曉得怎麽跟農民說明因此有99%的農會也反對國土計畫法如期的上路所以修法展演是在必行而我們來看一下為了保障國人的糧食安全而政府立法限制農民的農地的使用致使"},{"start":4766.162,"end":4770.288,"text":"農民濃縮損失而政府應該編列預算給予補償依照中華民國憲法第15條的規定人民的財產權應該予以保障那在釋字第440號也指出國家機關依法行使公權利"},{"start":4781.183,"end":4809.322,"text":"民眾的財產遭受損失形成個人的特別犧牲時國家也應予合理的補償但是到目前為止也沒有看到我們目前有關的機關提出良好的對策與補償方式那我們可以看到其實我們現在很多農地目前都算是不良的農地現在都可以作為光電的設用租金一公頃大概是一年是40萬"},{"start":4810.983,"end":4811.304,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":4832.503,"end":4860.769,"text":"那我想到目前為止草野立委總共提出了國土計畫法第45條修正草案總共有18案而委員們也接獲很多的陳情跟抱怨全國農民都對即將上路的國土計畫法感到憂慮希望能夠展延實行那本席也有提案希望能夠施行的日期再展延兩年讓中央有更多的時間可以制定更完整的配套跟補償的政策"},{"start":4861.249,"end":4877.674,"text":"也讓地方有充足的時間可以跟民眾來溝通說明白謝謝好 謝謝謝謝徐議政委員接下來我們請花蓮縣秀林鄉太魯閣獵人協會理事長鐵蠟遊盜理事長好 繼續"},{"start":4890.946,"end":4918.636,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位機關的代表大家好建議關於國土計畫法的修訂希望能夠增列乳下第一個就是增訂本法適用涉及原住民族土地跟權利者依照原住民族基本法辦理"},{"start":4921.019,"end":4929.449,"text":"本法這個例子可以參照以下三點提供建議第一個就是太空發展法第12條第5項"},{"start":4932.714,"end":4957.821,"text":"全項發射場域涉及原住民族土地及權利者主管機關會同原住民族委員會一原住民族基本法辦理參照二海洋保育法第五條後段中央主管機關應會同中央原住民族主管機關"},{"start":4959.501,"end":4967.329,"text":"並且依原住民主基本法及海洋基本法的規定辦理參照3花東地區發展條例第8條"},{"start":4972.949,"end":4997.731,"text":"縣主管機關針對花東地區原住民族生存保障與文化保存因依原住民族基本法的規定擬定相關的計畫納入綜合發展實施的方案這個是參照提供建議第二個就是建議附帶決議列入如下兩點"},{"start":5000.796,"end":5021.15,"text":"主管機關因盤點國土計畫法跟原住民主基本法的關係不得違背原住民主基本法並且研議方案求促兩者之間的關係以保障原住民主的權利"},{"start":5023.081,"end":5051.354,"text":"互代決議二主管機關實施國土計畫法應依照嚴峻民主自治法規與政策進行調整以保障嚴峻民主的權利補充說明我們嚴明會在今年的8月就說明未來要將嚴峻民主自治列為重要的政策"},{"start":5053.309,"end":5076.228,"text":"過去在馬英九執政的時候也是在講這個話要把這個當為重要的政策一直到現在現在的總統也非常積極在提所以這個是不分藍綠都希望推原住民自治了我們原住民非常的期待能夠落實這項政策"},{"start":5078.47,"end":5078.69,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5106.946,"end":5112.992,"text":"謝謝接下來請都市計畫技師公會全國聯合會理事長屈恩喜理事長"},{"start":5124.235,"end":5140.262,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們各位專家先進大家好我這邊是代表都市計畫計時工會全聯會國土計畫這件事情從我們在很多年前大家就一直很期待的事情"},{"start":5140.902,"end":5141.962,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5163.687,"end":5189.666,"text":"那在這個狀況之下包括像是國土計畫國土法裡面的第15條都有通盤檢討定期的甚至還有一些事實因應的處理那另外就是我們知道在國土計畫裡面有授予地方政府更多的一個權限也就是在國土計畫的理念下面其實因地制宜這件事情更能夠有一個好的一個發展那當然就是說國土計畫它涉及的部門也非常的多"},{"start":5190.306,"end":5191.267,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5209.436,"end":5220.064,"text":"總體的方向確實會比我們過去的一個方式來更好那也是為什麼我們覺得說在這個過程中我們要去比較積極當然所有的問題不是馬上能夠解決的"},{"start":5223.506,"end":5223.686,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5242.376,"end":5259.302,"text":"當然大家會關心的是執法的部分這也是配套要去努力剛剛在國土署也特別提到了14項執法裡面在已經有9項公佈了其他的也會在年底特別是我們最關心的那個土地使用管制規則這個部分那這個也是"},{"start":5260.162,"end":5260.182,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5290.622,"end":5316.321,"text":"嗯應該是說溝通的平台我們也很願意協助地方政府還有各個部會來做一個比較好的溝通那國土署在這幾年也特別請我們協助包含像是輔導團啊或者是甚至我們自己的一個專業訓練所以我想應該是這麼說我們都走在對的路上那至於比較技術面的問題包含像是剛剛講到的幾個"},{"start":5319.236,"end":5335.611,"text":"委員會特別提到的其實這個都有一個特別專案處理原則我想國土署應該也會來做一些努力我們也希望必須重點是每個民眾的權益我們都要透過一個溝通的方式這也是未來"},{"start":5336.252,"end":5360.038,"text":"我們在角色上面希望能夠給予更多的協助溝通、對話那在這次的公聽會我也覺得滿榮幸的能夠被受邀那未來我們也希望在這裡面包含像是剛剛幾個專家提的我們能夠有更多的一個溝通那未來是產、觀、學都必須要在國土的一個架構下面"},{"start":5360.518,"end":5361.358,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5387.19,"end":5404.063,"text":"其實產業的發展還是要扣合除了國家政策還有地方對於未來發展的定位是怎麼樣去思考的所以如果有地方有一些想法在這個階段裡面除了通盤檢討還有一個很重要的機制是一個城鄉區的"},{"start":5404.804,"end":5405.404,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5430.851,"end":5452.76,"text":"所以我們在這邊是希望能夠在大家有一些雜音的狀況之下持續的來當作一個很重要的溝通平台來協助我們不管個案的問題或是通案的問題都能夠一併的參與這是以上的我們的建議 謝謝好 非常感謝"},{"start":5460.452,"end":5476.142,"text":"好那我們接下來請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":5478.267,"end":5495.117,"text":"近期國土計畫法的推行引發了廣泛的爭議尤其是在土地使用和社會影響的問題上這個不法案將於2025年正式實施"},{"start":5496.238,"end":5524.016,"text":"指在對土地使用進行全面規劃和管理然而該法的實施過程中面臨諸多的挑戰和質疑首先許多地方政府對於計畫的具體實施時間表表示擔憂多數縣市無法如期完成土地"},{"start":5526.499,"end":5531.304,"text":"國土分區園的國土分區圖的提報"},{"start":5538.995,"end":5556.312,"text":"這使得法律的實施變得更加複雜例如苗栗縣、雲林縣、台中市等其他縣市對中央政府要求表示不滿認為這可能影響當地農業發展的需求並呼應暫緩法"},{"start":5563.735,"end":5564.455,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":5583.706,"end":5606.502,"text":"本黨團立場就希望長官協還有農業各個部會充分溝通不主張延後實施與否其次法律具體內容也引起了社會各界討論和不安國土計畫法"},{"start":5608.012,"end":5616.96,"text":"花定了多種土地的用途包括國土保育區和農業發展區等然而這樣的花分可能會影響到地方的土地使用權特別對原住民的土地及農地的影響"},{"start":5632.973,"end":5651.907,"text":"這使得許多農民和原住民感到不安我認為法律和實施需要考量到地方的文化和社會的特點以避免產生過大的社會矛盾"},{"start":5654.898,"end":5676.907,"text":"另外法律的推行可能會導致土地市場的動盪專家指出非都市的土地的重新劃分可能會引發土地炒作的問題然而一點在過去"},{"start":5678.38,"end":5698.021,"text":"這一點在過去經驗中已經表現得十分明顯例如曾經發生的大補案這就是因為土地徵收和用途變更而引起社會衝突對於新法的實施中"},{"start":5699.4,"end":5727.948,"text":"中央政府與地方政府都需要更加謹慎儘管國土計畫法的推行目的是為了促進土地的可繼續發展和合理的利用但實施的過程的爭議表明政府需要更加謹慎地考量地方需求和影響"},{"start":5729.423,"end":5729.643,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5748.23,"end":5775.022,"text":"國土計畫法的推行引發爭議反映了土地管理在台灣的複雜性與敏感性未來的發展需要更多的對話和協商以便能在促進經濟的發展的同時保障社會與和諧的穩定讓我們大家達成共榮共榮的目標"},{"start":5776.971,"end":5783.997,"text":"請成功大學都市計畫學系特聘教授張學聖教授"},{"start":5808.338,"end":5827.388,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會的各位先進大家好首先感謝邀請能夠來發表一些看法那我想我的發言針對修法中所談到的45條有關時間的問題以及帶到目前國土計畫所產生的一些爭議的問題來提供我的意見"},{"start":5828.974,"end":5847.134,"text":"當然我們現在看到國土計畫問題多多問題非常多所以要多一點時間來討論延後上路這個是可以理解的提案不過我必須講從我對國土計畫的認知延後不會是一個好答案針對國土計畫這一題來講"},{"start":5850.317,"end":5873.408,"text":"我們看到其實很多的民間組織包含到學術單位都在有相關的連署所倡議的事情不外乎就是目前國土農地持續在流失生態環境持續遭受破壞剛才邱委員特別提到從立法至今超過30年所以國土的永續不應該再等"},{"start":5877.776,"end":5897.775,"text":"那這裡面的關鍵之一我想大家很多都在討論農業發展地區南部縣市也提到農業權的問題那我必須講農業權的問題也許我們換一個角度來看其實它是一個國土計畫追求環境社會的公共利益"},{"start":5898.556,"end":5898.896,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5920.72,"end":5934.458,"text":"在之前大概6月7月我們就聽到農業部有有關相關堆疊幾戶的政策當時聽到9月底會有比較明確明朗的政策可是到目前好像"},{"start":5935.544,"end":5958.84,"text":"還沒有所以這個部分自然的對農民來講會有很多疑慮會覺得我的畫社特別是我們在工能分區畫社的時候他是依照土地的條件好的農地叫農醫結果畫社農醫以後變成是懲罰這個是一個不公不義的事情因為你畫社的農醫並沒有對等的資源補助"},{"start":5959.88,"end":5975.416,"text":"所以我們看到農業部相關政策講他的堆疊幾戶要跟國土計畫脫鉤我個人是持審慎的態度我覺得應該要跟國土計畫密切的掛鉤因為國家是一體的"},{"start":5976.337,"end":5998.704,"text":"如果國土計畫劃分了不同類型而農地的補助是一視同仁那你做不同等級的分類就很難推動地方必然會有不同的聲音出現所以我覺得差別補助是必然應該要做的而且農政資源也應該要及早的政策的宣示跟政策的上路"},{"start":6000.142,"end":6010.282,"text":"這個部分我們在部分南部縣市的討論中其實可以聽到農民不是要一萬兩萬的施捨不是這件事情因為農業"},{"start":6012.91,"end":6013.33,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6038.886,"end":6055.56,"text":"隨便的撒錢所以他在基本給付的同時也要求你農地不能夠過度破碎你要有一定的規模同時堆疊的包含你回應了糧食安全你有青農的政策你有生態的這個政策等等都給予堆疊的補助"},{"start":6056.561,"end":6081.232,"text":"我想這個是公平正義的一環是經濟學上外部效益內部化的一部分是應該要還給農民的那在公正轉型的過程中國土計畫施作的過程中我覺得應該有更大的力道來達成這樣的一個轉型不只歐盟包含我們附近的日本韓國都有類似的做法所以這邊我就不繼續往下講了"},{"start":6082.252,"end":6107.794,"text":"當然在農地中另外被討論的一塊就是有關農地價值的爭議這個農地好像地價比發展用地來得低這個問題我覺得確實國土計畫要增強土地變耕的橫貧機制我們過去在開發許可的時候如果把一塊農地變成產業園區這個產業園區就得到了丁建得到了農基300"},{"start":6109.343,"end":6109.503,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6121.36,"end":6143.613,"text":"通過保護農地把農地的發展權轉移給其他開發用地就能夠達到一個以供助農的效果我覺得這個在後續國土計畫的滾動修正中應該把這個土地的橫平機制來更加強的討論那其他談到的一些問題譬如發展權不夠啊這個用地不足啊"},{"start":6144.173,"end":6165.507,"text":"我給各位一些資料我們看到就是二階各縣市國土計畫其實都可以劃成二至三所謂的準備要發展的用地目前劃設的面積大概一萬五千公頃一萬五千公頃就是三百公頃規模的園區有五十個我們台灣短期有這麼大的需求嗎我們的農業都計裡面的農業區其實就是都市計畫的預留發展用地"},{"start":6174.025,"end":6195.61,"text":"全國有9萬4千多公頃在這次國土計畫中各縣市願意把這些土地回歸到農業發展區的只有一萬多公頃換言之都市計畫內還可以再發展的用地達8萬多公頃我們真的有用地不足的問題嗎我不認為他是一個真的議題"},{"start":6196.986,"end":6222.439,"text":"是否國土計畫會判農地死刑當才其實在國土署的資料中都看到了國土計畫本身打破了區域計畫的原則所以農業發展地區是用一個產製除消的概念你只要是發展農業其實更是能夠符合農業的這個經營上的需求都能分區無法輕易變更本來國土計畫就是要計畫引導"},{"start":6223.78,"end":6251.098,"text":"如果我們在計畫擬定的發展區以外各別土地都能夠隨意變更那公共利益在哪裡我想這些呢都是國土計畫推動本來就存在啊包括前面的委員多年的努力本來就存在的基本精神如果國土計畫延後其實這幾年國土計畫所做的事情所謂正當但不合法的原住民區的一些建立的問題"},{"start":6254.288,"end":6281.213,"text":"有關種種鄉村地區在解決的問題可能都會被擱置所以通盤來看國土計畫因地制宜的政策合理有序的推動應該要趕快上路那其他所謂圖資不精準等等我想這個都是行政程序可以處理的過去環敏地來處理邊界問題都有相關的經驗那土地價值觀的不同"},{"start":6282.773,"end":6282.893,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6302.557,"end":6303.478,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6325.374,"end":6334.123,"text":"好謝謝張教授我們接下來請政治大學地政學系副教授戴秀雄副教授"},{"start":6336.89,"end":6354.171,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好我想聽到剛才其實我很高興我在邱老師張老師後面那大體上銜接他們的意見但是有幾點我要提供大家做參考第一點大家有沒有注意到那想事情都是用地在思考一筆一筆土地思考可是國土規劃不是"},{"start":6355.012,"end":6355.032,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6378.871,"end":6405.57,"text":"所以你不可以拿區域計畫法時代那種我在農牧用地上排除我其他使用包含種樹這些使用方式去想像未來國土法思考模式因為現在是先做容領我先做分區下來分區裡面相容理論上都有可能可以用所以請大家可以自己看土地使用管制規則草案的副表1那個圈差表一樣的農舍一路從國保1到農事全部都是可以許可興建而且就在農牧用地上"},{"start":6407.475,"end":6427.442,"text":"所以今天討論的很多東西我必須要講是不是根本是建立在錯誤認知上是我必須要提出來的第一個點因為不是用土地想的而且就是因為要去思考就像一個住宅區我可能還是要有小區因為如果全住宅不好用啊我要買東西怎麼辦所以住宅區可不可以有小型商業 可以"},{"start":6428.975,"end":6444.982,"text":"這個在過去區域計畫法這50年亂搞是沒有的東西而且區域計畫法難道有比較好嗎這個計畫國土計畫是要取代區域計畫區域計畫有什麼問題你到山區裡去看一筆土地超過兩三公頃以上的比比皆是然後地表坡度不均"},{"start":6445.822,"end":6467.994,"text":"那裡面有平地可以蓋房子的因為它整體是林業用地就是不能蓋所以剛才張老師提到的問題是一個非常嚴重尤其住在山區原住民朋友受限特別嚴重明明是合理使用往往在現在的制度下就一直被開紅單那這個問題要不要解決如果要解決現行區域計畫法對不起這是不可能的"},{"start":6468.789,"end":6492.707,"text":"基本上連平地裡面的農務用地現在都因為目的事業別而有做這樣強烈的限制其實都是不合理的情況所以如果你覺得現在制度很棒那OK那我們也許有討論延期的空間如果現有的這個制度就是不合理的而且拖了50年鄉間完全沒做過任何調查跟規劃然後是因為國土計畫要施行因此才啟動調查才啟動規劃的話"},{"start":6496.156,"end":6508.754,"text":"現在的問題如果不靠國土計畫解決是行政部門自己卡關的問題呢還是這個計畫系統有問題其實以我看法不是計畫系統問題尤其包含邱老師剛才提到的"},{"start":6509.761,"end":6528.434,"text":"桃園如果以目前的結構來講包含雲林也一樣你的國土計畫裡已經發布實施寫明了我大概哪些地方是乘23也就是你的後備用地你如果覺得不夠你不是在現階段可以在土地直接變而是必須要回去修自己家的國土計畫"},{"start":6529.833,"end":6542.645,"text":"所以你在現階段跑出來跳出來講說我要更多的產業用地卻不想要去提你已經在外面生效的那個國土計畫這是鬼扯容我不客氣講這是鬼扯再下來農政的補貼這是一件該做的事"},{"start":6550.885,"end":6568.231,"text":"那但是問題是即便歐盟即便德國這個不會放在國土計畫裡因為國土計畫在什麼它處理的是土地的利用它要因地制宜要合一這樣使用所以你不會在台北市裡面畫農衣啊你會畫農衣一定是什麼畫東縱谷一定是西南平原"},{"start":6569.315,"end":6580.71,"text":"因為土地因地制宜調查過它就適合做這樣使用所以你才會在那個地方因為如果連這點都不能做我們不用談國土計畫也不用談任何的國土秩序"},{"start":6582.042,"end":6605.598,"text":"因為要因地制宜因為要物盡其用所以如果這樣反過頭來講我們可以看到另外更現實的問題從1926年的歐吉里德案在美國就承認最高強度的都市計畫限制你的土地使用一樣是核限無需補償因為只要有做任何的規劃一定會對土地使用自由發生限制"},{"start":6606.792,"end":6635.882,"text":"所以一個限制在台灣到目前為止依照大法官的解釋只有公共設施保留地算是特別犧牲一樣的道理國土法跟區域計畫法裡面所形成的農地的限制如果按照這標準說因為農地只能農用那林地也只能林用啊你所有的限制都存在基本上你在都市計畫區你住宅區就是不可以隨便有鐵工廠那請問是不是限制那是不是特別犧牲"},{"start":6638.288,"end":6652.896,"text":"何況憲法保障的不是你的交易價格保障是東西在你手裡的存續保障所以保障這東西在你手裡你能用你能用來賺錢你可以用來處分原則上這個有沒有到達超過社會義務的範疇都有討論的空間"},{"start":6655.799,"end":6682.179,"text":"所以簡單來講如果農業要做加權補償我非常非常樂見這立場基本上跟邱老師跟張老師是一樣的但是它不會是在國土計畫裡做它最大宗正常在國外立法例都是在農政主管法規裡處理因為這個本來就是於農政系統該做至於救窮的問題本來就是社會福利網的問題它不會是國土因為國土計畫只管一件事情土地是不是適地適用"},{"start":6682.779,"end":6699.554,"text":"那除非我們今天講說我們很愛目前的這一個非都市土地使用管制規則那我們再來談慢慢來讓國土計畫實施要不然的話如果他的不合理是不該保留的情況的話那國土計畫完全沒有延遲實施的必要性"},{"start":6700.778,"end":6723.826,"text":"所以這個地方我很簡單的這樣去跟大家講希望大家能夠理解一個很基本的問題農業不是絕對的限制今天來講台灣在老農的世界裡甚至有一種我不知道大家曉不曉得有一種代耕的行業其實可以非常大規模幫他代耕所以事實上包含農民老化的問題都不是無解狀態那更有些縣市其他農業很賺錢"},{"start":6725.435,"end":6726.296,"text":"請問那個要補貼嗎?只因為它是農地所以要補貼嗎?所以這個傷害到農民權了嗎?"},{"start":6745.106,"end":6761.716,"text":"所以這個事情我認為整個要去主張是不是特別犧牲要不要補償以及我覺得最嚴重問題不是補償問題就是說你要把它掛在國土計畫講說這樣子我們不要化農業發展區這是一種大錯因為這是一個想像上的勾連但是沒有真正實質的意義"},{"start":6763.393,"end":6784.541,"text":"所以我想以上很簡單提供大家去做一個參考因為如果按照這種邏輯思考的話基本上不存在任何規劃可能性包含都市計畫在內因為所有的規劃行為一定會對人的財產自由造成限制只是多跟寡所以嚴格來講包含都市計畫之所以現在可以訴訟就是希望透過司法去確認行政權不要爛權不要亂做規劃而這個控制"},{"start":6788.223,"end":6811.136,"text":"不會是透過補貼來處理掉而是要從規劃行為本身行政程序上控制去做到才可以以上提供參考好 謝謝接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員發言完之後我們休息5分鐘讓大家可以休息使用洗手間"},{"start":6815.365,"end":6838.844,"text":"感謝內政委員會徐昭偉今天排定這場公聽會希望藉由這場公聽會讓國土計畫法能夠更加的完備今天在座相當多的學者專家其中有許多人在8年以前都曾經是參與制定一路看顧著國土法通過的重要推手可以這麼說國土法的大方向是沒有問題的"},{"start":6839.665,"end":6846.031,"text":"利益是良好的然而國土法這樣牽動國家百年大計的大法勢必要有相當多的配套可是大家都知道相關的執法到目前都未齊備這已經是說到不知道該怎麼說了行政機關的不作為我們也拿他沒有辦法其實我都懷疑行政機關自己都不想推動否則為什麼到現在為止"},{"start":6865.928,"end":6891.773,"text":"此法一一都沒有辦法一一的落實包括過去這段時間以來農業部一再說針對全國農地會推出一套堆疊式補助措施雖然並非完全與國土法掛鉤但其對農一農二是否有不同的農政資源投入無不牽動著農地持有人的權益這套措施原本預計9月底要公告但現在已經10月底了"},{"start":6895.294,"end":6897.176,"text":"中午12時至中午12時至中午12時至"},{"start":6906.075,"end":6931.913,"text":"想要說這麼一部利益良好的百年大法它就是讓這些不溝通不作為的行政機關所耽誤了《國土法》攸關著這個2350萬人的權益攸關著台灣未來生存發展我們需要的是一個完整的方案對於推動國土計畫法絕對不能抱持著先求有"},{"start":6932.213,"end":6956.331,"text":"在求有就再求好的心態絕對不能抱持著先求有再求好的心態否則硬推改革恐怕會比不改革的後果更糟針對國土法實施的問題我以一個農業縣市的立法委員立場在此提出幾項建議希望主管機關能夠有所回應首先就是農業權應該納入國土計畫法為了保障農民的權益"},{"start":6960.994,"end":6986.927,"text":"雲林縣政府在110年就率先提出農業權的主張為什麼要主張農業權因為優良農地它不是平均分布在我們的國土之中有些縣市的農地多有些縣市幾乎沒有農地負擔但糧食安全國家安全是全國各縣市人民都要負擔的責任那不是特定縣市就應該有所犧牲所以我們主張從進城應將農業貢獻納入"},{"start":6991.25,"end":6994.493,"text":"財政跨分權眾內中層加入農業轉移權概念遠程推動農業發展權入法國土法針對農業權基金特別成立特別基金"},{"start":7006.286,"end":7010.049,"text":"農業縣市應配合國家糧食安全的政策那產生的農地財產限制為了平衡農業縣市的付出應該給予這些農業縣市財產的補償那中央應與國土法中載明成立農業權特別基金由此基金來提供相關補償包括挹注成立農業專區發展產業園區甚至農民的補償等相關政策所用那第三呢"},{"start":7036.366,"end":7041.429,"text":"國土計畫法應該納入農業發展權轉移制度針對農地制度亦應由中央統一規劃農業發展權轉移制度依人口及其他發展指標推估各縣市應負擔之"},{"start":7054.577,"end":7074.679,"text":"國家糧食安全之責任而在有農地不足的縣市向農地面積過度負擔的縣市購買以補足其負擔之面積除了可以解決農業縣市為了負擔糧食安全所產生的特別犧牲問題之外更是達成土地公平正義"},{"start":7075.68,"end":7079.662,"text":"因為只有公平只有正義才能夠讓國土法可長可久那第四點呢國土法原定之期程應展延有鑒於農業權為充分獲得保障農村地區整體規劃未入法農業堆疊式補助未出爐相關配套措施能為完善且民眾對於國土計畫法"},{"start":7099.969,"end":7126.676,"text":"能有相當多的意義中央確實應該完成跨部會的溝通以及中央地方的溝通再提出完整配套後再續辦國土計畫法以上這四點建議其實在111年來雲林縣政府就已經陸續送至中央主管機關希望今天的公聽會能讓主管機關更審慎的考慮讓國土計畫法更加的完備謝謝"},{"start":7132.596,"end":7135.388,"text":"好,謝謝張家俊委員那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7145.538,"end":7146.158,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7165.94,"end":7166.261,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7573.561,"end":7581.704,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續開會接下來請逢甲大學督資系特聘教授周天穎教授發言"},{"start":7585.97,"end":7609.018,"text":"主席、各位委員以及在座的各位先進大家早安首先非常開心能夠有這個機會來這邊代表部分的學者所發言的一些意見我想我這邊稍微之前的時候整理了幾份資料我覺得這一種的一個溝通對於整個國土計畫的實施是一個非常好的一件事情但是"},{"start":7610.078,"end":7628.691,"text":"國土計畫相較於所有的一些法律而言的話它一樣有它部分的一些缺失仍然存在那這些缺失裡面也包含了剛剛幾位學者專家以及幾位委員所談到的一些事項那這裡面也包含了像未來發展區的一些界定跟審議的一些時程那有沒有可能"},{"start":7628.951,"end":7629.291,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":7655.327,"end":7671.752,"text":"但區議計畫法裡面現階段裡面仍然有許多是在審議的一些事情這些審議的事情無論是任何一個時間如果進到落日條款的話那在審議中的包含有些已經申請許可有些其實是應經申請許可但是未"},{"start":7672.532,"end":7687.864,"text":"上位許可 類像這些的區塊在未來的區議計畫法的一個落日之後怎麼樣的解決我覺得這些也有相當多的一些干擾的一些事項應該要事先的定義出來那另外土地使用分區的一些調整"},{"start":7688.404,"end":7688.744,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":7710.765,"end":7711.005,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":7727.391,"end":7755.901,"text":"這個圖形是用五千分之一或是一萬分之一甚至兩五千分之一圖形繪製出來而這些區塊現在目前定念的就是國土保育區一那另外在許多的一些其他單位比如說經濟部的山崩與地質地滑地質敏感區的一個五類的一個圖形這些圖形制定出來是國土保育區二而這些圖形當年的一個製作它的比例值它的精度以及它製作的時候的一個目的"},{"start":7756.621,"end":7756.781,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":7775.023,"end":7799.63,"text":"地方政府的權責以及中央政府的權責所以這個部分的一些圖形能不能做一些修正做了這些圖形修正之後土地使用分區才有機會能夠做一些變更那這件事情是什麼時候要開始來做或者是現在目前實際上非常多中央政府其實也在固定定期在做一些圖形的修正那另外大家很重視的原住民族的一些土地使用的法規的一些調整"},{"start":7800.67,"end":7800.69,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7821.037,"end":7840.9,"text":"是不是因為我部分的族民其實他的居住的一個習慣有兩棟的甚至還有一棟的那這些有沒有機會可以化為所謂的微型部落到目前為止其實還沒有一個正式的一些答案那甚至包含這些補償機制我想剛剛在前面的幾位學者專家也談到了"},{"start":7841.681,"end":7870.903,"text":"非常多的一些補償機制那不論是落入到國土計畫法裡面或者是有另外的一些方式對於人或者是對於地的一個不同的補償的方式那這些的補償的法案實際上是還要訂定那這些的訂定包含這些土地所有權人他的財產權減損之後有沒有一個合理的補償那不管是用堆疊式的補償或實質權益的一些保障那這些的一個推行才不會造成過多的一些社會的矛盾"},{"start":7871.443,"end":7888.089,"text":"所以現在目前非常多中央還有地方那甚至還有很多不同的一些代表那身上其實背負了非常非常多的一些壓力那這些壓力對於一個法案對於一個這麼重要的一個法案來討論我覺得是一個好的事情"},{"start":7888.809,"end":7903.917,"text":"因為有這樣子的一些討論的方式才容易更強化所謂的中央跟地方的一些溝通甚至中央各個不同部會之間的一個溝通所以我這邊提出來我的一個建議的事項"},{"start":7905.031,"end":7918.823,"text":"我覺得延緩其實並不是唯一的解決的方案因為延緩兩年之後剛剛所表達的非常多的一些問題甚至剛剛前述的一些專家學者所談到的一些問題兩年之後仍然存在"},{"start":7919.847,"end":7945.442,"text":"所以是不是用延緩能夠做成唯一的一個解決的方案我覺得不盡然而在乎的應該是說現在目前對於非常多的一些疑義的那是不是能夠有比較快速的一個答案能夠出來那這些答案的出來那能不能夠再經過一些比較好的溝通比較好的一些討論那經過這樣的方式比如說在第二階段一個縣政府發布國土計畫的時候"},{"start":7946.463,"end":7967.775,"text":"他所參考的仍然是地形圖的一個方式所製作出來的各類的一個土地分區的一個方式那這種電影圖的一個製作出來是在110年4月30號公告那如果按照明年的一個時間其實是五年的一個期限五年的期限本來就可以執行所謂的一個國土計畫通盤檢討"},{"start":7969.335,"end":7992.821,"text":"所以是建議如果無法延緩在明年實施國土計畫的時候同步推動通盤檢討讓有些有爭議一些區位甚至於包含很多在地方政府裡面現在目前對一些未來的發展區甚至有一些現在目前正在進行鄉村整理規劃的一些區塊也能夠順利的配合通盤檢討"},{"start":7993.761,"end":7993.781,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8015.276,"end":8026.293,"text":"中央必須要有一定準則的方式甚至加快一些所謂的土地爭議方面的審議工作現在非常多的地方政府實際上有上百"},{"start":8027.332,"end":8027.672,"text":"國土計畫實施的當下"},{"start":8054.375,"end":8066.295,"text":"是不是就可以針對一些部分的區塊甚至於鄉村地區能夠直接實行通盤檢討甚至於鄉村整體規劃部分能夠做更合一的處置以上的建議 謝謝"},{"start":8070.311,"end":8088.581,"text":"謝謝周教授在下一位發言之前本席在這邊想特別提醒行政單位就是說今天很多的專家學者包含地方政府他們反映的意見也都有書面甚至各地方政府都有"},{"start":8090.882,"end":8117.079,"text":"該縣市的立委也都在這邊發言他們的疑慮我們希望因為在這個所有發言完之後我們會請行政單位來回應我們希望行政單位能夠有具體的一些回應讓我們今天的討論可以更聚焦而且能夠對大家都是為了讓我們台灣的土地運用得更好所以我們這個希望行政單位有所準備"},{"start":8118.319,"end":8146.639,"text":"會在發言完之後請你們來回應好那我們接著我們請地球公民基金會副執行長黃敬廷副執行長大家好謝謝主席和內政委員會的邀請我是地球公民基金會的副執行長黃敬廷那地球公民基金會是一個長期在關心很多不合理的開發導致環境和周邊居民得承受這些開發外部性的一個團體"},{"start":8147.5,"end":8164.002,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":8164.462,"end":8180.03,"text":"一地方居民、原民部落其實每天都在發生的事情那這也是為什麼我們認為其實國土計畫法在當年立法之後已經修過一次要延後上路了那現在又在討論這樣的事情我們認為這是一個不應該發生的事情"},{"start":8183.352,"end":8202.308,"text":"我們的行政部門我們的立法委員以及我們的地方縣市首長都應該依法行政不應該在這個時候又去私訊私訊人民那我想要跟大家說一下這個延後會牽扯到多少事情我們剛剛有看到一個統計其實就是現在的鄉村地區整體規劃其實已經超過台灣全台灣有50個鄉村在進行這件事情了那個標案的總金額早就超過1億了"},{"start":8208.353,"end":8223.831,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":8223.931,"end":8224.051,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":8245.896,"end":8269.762,"text":"我們要等到規劃到100分120分甚至200分之後才可以上路的事情他是一個在台灣的民主國家裡面他是一個必須不斷不斷的討論必須不斷不斷的調整符合當時的時代當當下的需求而一直一直在做調整的規劃沒有最100分的規劃只有不斷調整的規劃這個也要跟大家講這是我學習到的事情"},{"start":8272.444,"end":8290.823,"text":"公聽會有一些提綱我稍微講一下就是說第一題是說要延後或是暫緩實施其實我覺得是真的沒有必要第二個就是這個立法的意旨國土計畫立法的意旨其實就是本來的權利本來你是合法權利就會被保障的"},{"start":8291.343,"end":8319.591,"text":"他不會因為國土計畫上路之後突然權利被收走不會有這樣的事情這個大家一定要知道以及國土計畫的精神其實是要因地制宜計畫引導使用的剛剛周老師也有提到圖資啊環敏區的這些修正這麼多年來二三十年來機關都沒有動力做修正但是一出現了國土計畫大家就開始努力的要去修正它了這個是一個非常好的動力我要跟大家說明那如果各個縣市"},{"start":8320.791,"end":8336.283,"text":"他們做不完或者是他們不滿意現況怎麼辦剛剛很多老師也都提到了馬上開始做通盤檢討我們現在的桃園市就在做了你如果對於你2021年的縣市國土計畫你自己寫的計畫你覺得現在已經要調整了現在趕快統檢趕快做這個調整"},{"start":8341.727,"end":8351.292,"text":"很快的國土計畫明年5月上午之後你就可以再做調整了這個不會有任何凍結的問題這個是要大家知道的事情再來就是"},{"start":8353.776,"end":8380.709,"text":"剛剛也有很多委員或者是不同的發言代表提到說我們有特別犧牲如果我的土地被劃到農業發展地區會有特別犧牲我想要跟大家講一個觀念就是大家想想如果今天我的土地被劃入了住宅區限制了發展成為商業區導致台積電可能沒辦法在我家的土地上蓋我是不是也要補償"},{"start":8382.433,"end":8394.041,"text":"這個是有合理嗎?所有的限制很多都是因為公共性、公共利益不是說每一種限制都是要補償的這個事情我們如果無限上當然來談補償就會沒完沒了好像我的土地的價值很低都要國家來補償一樣這個是我覺得非常非常奇怪的論述"},{"start":8403.368,"end":8403.628,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8423.517,"end":8442.964,"text":"農民跟農業的發展跟台灣的糧食安全等等的考量其實要回到農業部門的法規比如說農發條例比如說農地利用綜合規劃農地政策白皮書等等的農業部相關的部門計畫來處理才是正軌不是在國土計畫這條路線上去處理"},{"start":8445.626,"end":8446.046,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8466.188,"end":8484.203,"text":"這個政府來到台灣的時期終於出現了國土計畫法可以讓我們原住民的朋友他們本來就居住在這邊可是因為殖民可能是因為土地的一些所有權的問題讓這些建築物他們本來就在使用的建築物或是土地"},{"start":8484.944,"end":8509.882,"text":"明明合理卻不合法的情況下一直一直出現國土計畫是有一個機制可以讓這些合理卻無法合法的建築物或是土地利用終於有機會在這個時代在這個轉型正義大家都在乎歷史正義的時代終於去做一個合法化的路徑了對我們來說對原住民朋友來說這是非常非常重要的一個制度的變革"},{"start":8510.763,"end":8517.065,"text":"再就是我其實要跟我們的在野黨包括國民黨和民眾黨的立法委員陳情一下就是我覺得在野陣營這邊應該要監督的是兩個部門一個是農業部門"},{"start":8526.309,"end":8534.172,"text":"你們必須在國土計畫這個架構下去思考說農業部門是不是很多該做的事情或是該到位的政策可以再加快腳步我覺得這才是一個監督最重要的重點如果農業縣市都覺得很委屈他們被劃到很多農業發展地區好像他們的發展都受限一樣其實應該是要從稅制上面去思考如何搭配國土計畫上路去調整稅款的"},{"start":8556.319,"end":8581.405,"text":"統籌分配的這個問題水平的分配這件事情或者是通盤檢討的時候這些民意代表我覺得大家應該要去做這個監督是把這個地方的發展願景的規劃放在通盤檢討裡面由下而上的從人民開始做討論和尋求共識這才是國土計畫更踏實的公民參與跟重要的改革的精神"},{"start":8582.145,"end":8587.368,"text":"我覺得監督者要做的是監督我們的地方跟我們的中央去落實國土計畫的精神那我認為沒有完美的計畫剛剛這個有提到所以延後上路也絕對不是解決之道也不應該做延緩的動作"},{"start":8598.075,"end":8600.277,"text":"國土計畫法第17條有一個很重要的工具就是要求跨部會整合我們現在的光電發展、能源發展、防災"},{"start":8621.411,"end":8621.671,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員"},{"start":8651.182,"end":8668.071,"text":"謝謝主席今天很多的專業專家都提供了我們地方民意代表包含立法委員也是責成了很多地方縣市的所有表達的一些意向包含國土計畫法的現在的一個推行的一些政策的不滿"},{"start":8669.131,"end":8685.748,"text":"當然很多的專家他們你們所講的我們予以尊重那至於對於國土計畫法的45條包含原稽法的各法條裡面有沒有充足有沒有提出有沒有其他的對原住民的保障這是一個非常實意的問題那"},{"start":8687.95,"end":8705.032,"text":"本席在這個地方特別要提出的是先完成原住民的土地及海域的劃分法徹底解決原住民族人的土地的問題再實行國土計畫後再來研究國土計畫裡面的條文必須要明確"},{"start":8706.634,"end":8706.654,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8721.107,"end":8726.609,"text":"國土計畫法改成一定期限的完成那這個一定的期限完成是要多久要再由行政院來決定大家認為"},{"start":8750.123,"end":8773.615,"text":"這跟一般延長的方式不一樣那很多減稅或補貼的方案都是會寫清楚延長的時間但行政院這樣子來寫一定期限好像就可能變成無限期的延長的感覺所以這個就是我們很多地方的質疑的問題"},{"start":8775.616,"end":8797.456,"text":"國土計畫法的45條有沒有衝突到原住民的保障法第一個剛剛我聽到專家對對我們全國原住民的住宅合法性有些沒有辦法合法性能夠在14萬14萬棟裡面那變成進行學密監禁的來做合法沒有錯這是一條"},{"start":8798.157,"end":8812.852,"text":"但是有很多條我們必須要討論我們請人民會來給我一個書面的一個答案我今天要請教我們有關於國土計畫法對原住民土地的產生什麼影響第一個國土計畫"},{"start":8816.608,"end":8842.452,"text":"為原住民土地帶來什麼樣的改變?第二,原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決?第三,國土功能分區有包含原住民傳統海域及使用範圍嗎?第四,原住民的土地、海域及居住正義的問題解決之前為何強推國土計畫法?"},{"start":8842.992,"end":8865.282,"text":"第五國土計畫法以原住民的傳統領域劃分的問題能夠有解決的問題嗎第六國土功能分析劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎第七國土計畫通過之後原住民土地是否無法自治第八"},{"start":8866.182,"end":8886.556,"text":"國土計畫如何規範原住民土地的建筆力與容積力第九哪些土地功能分析分裂可以蓋原住民的傳統文化建築第十原住民傳統耕作灌輸專期是否受到國土計畫法的限制"},{"start":8888.296,"end":8908.925,"text":"11元族民族特定區域計畫是否受到國土計畫法的限制12國土功能分析劃設後會影響地價稅嗎13國土計畫會影響既有造林補助及禁法補償的資格嗎以上這是種種的問題都還沒有解決之下"},{"start":8910.014,"end":8927.268,"text":"如何來推行國土計畫在明年5月1日實施所以本期建議希望延後6年把地方的因地制宜跟我們很多的土地能夠地方的發展"},{"start":8928.729,"end":8942.294,"text":"然後大家一起統一會審之後再來推行而不是衝突衝突以縣市裡面的意見作為你們最後的決定要執行的以上謝謝好謝謝黃仁委員接下來我們請南投縣仁愛鄉鄉長江子信鄉長"},{"start":8961.094,"end":8984.637,"text":"我們的主席、我們的學員以及臺上的長官以及我們中央的長官以及在座的各位專家、學者還有人民團體大家好我是仁奈鄉鄉長收子派受邀來到這邊來對於這個我們的國土計畫法來做一個小小的一個個人的意見"},{"start":8986.15,"end":8989.034,"text":"紅樓委員阿美竹南投藍祥泰雅竹"},{"start":9003.752,"end":9005.253,"text":"到我的周邊還有我的認識的包括我們周邊的長官或者是對這個議題有經驗的有看法的來做一個田野調查"},{"start":9018.583,"end":9045.415,"text":"我這樣子了解之後不管是我周邊的人或是我公所的人還有我們縣府園民局的人還有當過園民局局長的非常多的我對他們對國土法的一些看法跟建議說真的大家都一字半截這個有點像蝦子摸象一樣摸到腳就說腳摸到鼻子就是鼻子"},{"start":9046.215,"end":9048.137,"text":"所以說這個國土計畫法我們看了它的一個利益其實就剛剛這麼多的展觀貴賓還有我們的教授這樣的一個講解其實它是一個非常好的利益良善的百年大計"},{"start":9063.255,"end":9090.018,"text":"不管是政方反對的還是贊成的我想它是一個非常好的一個政策但是今天為什麼會在這裡辦一個公聽會我想最重要的目的就是它執行的方式有沒有問題我們常常講我本身也是校長出身的所以我們常常講做任何事我們要做對事那就是一個方向那同樣的也要把事做對"},{"start":9090.999,"end":9117.648,"text":"如果方向就不對那怎麼做也沒有用所以看得出來我們這個國土計畫法它是對的方向我想這是大家都非常的認同但是做法上就有很多種就如同舉個例一下我們今天我是南投的要到花蓮有三條路可以走第一條路就是中橫第二條路就是可以從台北過來第三條路可以從高雄"},{"start":9118.646,"end":9119.166,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":9140.942,"end":9163.069,"text":"民進黨的立委也收到了我們的選民鄉民的壓力所以說他們也希望能夠暫緩可見的在做法上我們真的要去檢討至於裡面的細節我就不講我只是覺得說一個整體的一個在推動一個政策需要怎麼樣的一個方向跟方式"},{"start":9163.949,"end":9192.049,"text":"我本身也是行政小首長基層中但是以小歸天以廣歸天可以從一些事情的推動上面來解決很多的問題我舉一個例子我們的縣市首長為什麼那麼多會有疑慮其實這個我想執政黨在我們的政府在做事的時候很多也是選舉考量但是很多縣市首長也是選舉考量"},{"start":9193.89,"end":9219.172,"text":"關於這個國土法案就剛剛很多專家寫者也講還有很多我們的張家俊委也有講推動了10年但是為什麼宣導效果不彰這個就很有問題了而且我們的縣市首長因為這個我們說要下放給我們縣市首長去規劃你能保證我們請教一下我們中央長官你們真的確定每一個縣市首長都懂嗎"},{"start":9220.493,"end":9227.986,"text":"他知道後面我推動下去會有什麼後遺症我們的選民我們的姓名市民有疑問的時候他能回答嗎"},{"start":9229.358,"end":9258.004,"text":"然後各中央一定是沒有問題啦但是你到縣市政府的時候他就有問題了他自己裡面的連承辦人都不太了解這個內容是什麼所以後面我們的市民或是縣民在提出問題的時候他也回答不出來那我們鄉鎮市場就更麻煩了我問了半天有聽過說明會的也是一知半解也是不懂"},{"start":9259.031,"end":9283.485,"text":"所以這樣的一個狀況是要一個政策要執行真的要注意它的一個可行性所以我們常常講一個好的政策一定要怎麼樣大家都有共識之後才能做絕對不能再像以前三七五減租十大件事當時可能是明智未開所以你講了半天我們人民不一定聽得懂"},{"start":9284.431,"end":9299.945,"text":"但是現在一定要我們好的事情要行銷包裝才能夠把事情大家有一個共識才能處理好我在做任何事情的時候就一個原則請供我們中央參考"},{"start":9300.97,"end":9312.622,"text":"不要急著解決一個問題創造更大的問題甚至是災難我想這樣的一個政策下去我看到很多影片尤其是雲林開了這個公聽會或是一個說明"},{"start":9317.227,"end":9332.261,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":9332.381,"end":9352.356,"text":"就是在執行上面真的是要拜託我們的中央政府要三思尤其是我們原住民的地方有非常多也有很多非常需要了解的還好我剛剛有跟杜璋我們副主委有做一點短暫兩分鐘的溝通我們以前的一例他有解決了"},{"start":9353.197,"end":9382.132,"text":"是不是但是我們其他的同胞都還不知道啊所以說都有疑慮然後那個去說明的時候是用空拍圖在那邊說明看起來是很近啦實際上從這一個地到這一個地還要繞一公里才能到那個地方來然後我們的村民我們的鄉民提出問題那個教授也講不出答案來所以這件事的問題是層次不窮所以對我們這個政策的一個推動"},{"start":9383.499,"end":9384.54,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":9404.597,"end":9430.137,"text":"中央的或者是比較懂的下來跟我們說明我們提出問題來的時候你們才能夠說明你們才能夠解釋不然你這樣把一般的官員或是一些承辦人去說明我們提問題的時候他也不懂這樣的話會造成更大的民怨所以這樣的話我想是非常不好的一件事情所以最後我還是建議我們的人生"},{"start":9432.899,"end":9436.161,"text":"臺大農經系特聘教授兼系主任張宏浩主任"},{"start":9459.505,"end":9477.406,"text":"主席還有各位長官還有各位與會者大家早安很感謝到目前為止聽了很多的意見我這邊要談的東西可能跟大家剛才談的東西不太一樣因為我不是學法的所以我是學經濟的所以我想要從農地價格來談"},{"start":9481.323,"end":9496.694,"text":"我們可以看一下目前的農業部的對地補貼政策就我的觀點來看基本上它是要經過盤點看一塊農地可以產生多少的效用然後再針對各項的效用去做經濟的評估然後再把它疊起來"},{"start":9499.196,"end":9520.189,"text":"所以對地補貼對我來說概念是這樣我相信農業部現在也在做更多功能的盤點比如說ESG功能還有淨零的功能也想要把它在未來慢慢加進去這是我們現在看到的政策早上胡董也講得非常清楚"},{"start":9521.755,"end":9542.845,"text":"那長久以來我一直對農地的價格有興趣但是很遺憾的是我們目前並沒有官方的數據在談農地的價格所以我們好幾年前開始我們就很辛苦的從那個實價登錄的資料那是全國性的資料然後我們把它開始加收我們看到的狀況是這樣那目前全國的農地"},{"start":9545.546,"end":9565.139,"text":"大概平均每平方公頃是七千多塊但是我們看到了都市農地跟非都市農地的差距是非常的大的那一個是一萬三千多一個只有四千七百多那這個可能就是反映了不同的農地使用它的價值是在這邊"},{"start":9566.543,"end":9588.457,"text":"我們這團隊也有在做長期的看看農地價格的變化這是我們看到的趨勢那個縣就是價格那個bar就是那個交易量所以我們看到農地價格在這幾年你會覺得蠻奇怪COVID以後是一直在有一個相對歷史的數據來說是有在上漲的趨勢好"},{"start":9595.353,"end":9621.187,"text":"下一個問題我們想要回答就是我們看看什麼樣的因素會決定這個農地價格那我們團隊做了三篇的文章第一篇這個文章就是探討那個660平方米可以開放那個那個太陽能使用這個跟政大的林子欽老師的團隊一起合作我們發現那個門一關起來以後農地價格應聲下跌了18%左右"},{"start":9623.169,"end":9640.625,"text":"這個就是一個農地使用方式的改變造成的影響第二篇我們做的研究是探討0.25公頃可以去蓋農舍這件事情對農地價格有什麼影響我們發現你去比較0.25公頃的上面一點跟下面一點發現這個價格差距是還蠻明顯的"},{"start":9643.368,"end":9644.008,"text":"第三篇文章"},{"start":9662.022,"end":9684.991,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":9686.192,"end":9705.281,"text":"大型的數據大數據整理出來的這些結果結論就是我們發現在這個農地的價格上面非農業的規範他帶來對農地價格的影響比農業來的還要多所以我們的這三個文章找到了這個結論"},{"start":9707.879,"end":9720.411,"text":"今天從這個農地價格我們怎麼回來看這個我們目前大家很關心的國土計畫法這個是把我們現在的分區去做一個疊圖左邊這一個很明顯就是農業發展區"},{"start":9725.496,"end":9749.447,"text":"右邊這個是城鄉發展區在某些程度上你會看到他們是有match的但基本上在很多的地方也是沒有match的那今天的主要的爭議大概來自這一個我想與會的農地政要比我更專業但是我們覺得現在最大的爭議在這邊你看很多的公聽會"},{"start":9750.948,"end":9750.968,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9773.069,"end":9795.395,"text":"那這個劃分為什麼會造成那麼大的影響我想主要的原因是來自21條就是有關國土功能分區它的使用的原則如下你看第一區第一類所謂的農一跟農二基本上它使用上的限制尤其是轉非農使用的限制這個力道是不太一樣的"},{"start":9796.315,"end":9796.395,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":9812.928,"end":9832.447,"text":"以上就是我們大概想要找的所以我們的主要結論就是可能要有幾個問題可以值得思考第一個就是這個農地補貼的標的是不是只要考慮農地的價值還是應該考慮非農業的價值目前我們看到農業部的做法"},{"start":9832.887,"end":9853.126,"text":"大概是一直在做堆疊式的但是這些堆疊式的都跟農業生產是有直接或間接關係的非農業的價值基本上沒有考量這也是可以諒解的因為這個非農價值本來就是不是農業部的職權執掌的範圍所以一直都沒有在探討這一個"},{"start":9854.648,"end":9870.067,"text":"民眾反映出來的反而是農業去限制它轉非農業的時候價值的落差所以這個是可以思考的一個地方第二個就是現在這個"},{"start":9872.813,"end":9901.704,"text":"我覺得現在在談這個國土計畫法的一個比較大的一個問題就是可能農業部做農業部執掌在做的但是可能內政部在做但是我覺得要把它農業價值跟非農業價值來一起考量的時候應該是要把應該要職權先區隔就是非農的價值我想這絕對不是農業部可以去執掌內可以評估的所以這一塊"},{"start":9902.464,"end":9902.724,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":9935.813,"end":9937.279,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請賴慧媛委員"},{"start":9949.316,"end":9965.193,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝首先在這裡先跟我們台大那個張宏浩教授致謝因為本席來自於台南我的選區都是絕大部分是農業那其實"},{"start":9967.112,"end":9991.236,"text":"剛聽到你一席就是國土計畫法修正草案裡頭你提出來的一個農地農地的一個規劃那農地的一個價錢其實這個也是在我們這一次在那個國土計畫法裡頭大家所關心的那我想謝謝今天有這個機會跟大家分享就是國土計畫法本席對於這個修正草案的一個看法"},{"start":9991.996,"end":9992.197,"text":"國土計畫法規劃"},{"start":10013.497,"end":10013.517,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":10030.546,"end":10032.729,"text":"山谷立民爭取在山谷國小西側的農地希望化為農醫"},{"start":10046.067,"end":10046.968,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10075.051,"end":10075.211,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10097.268,"end":10097.748,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":10120.18,"end":10140.659,"text":"你一定就是說要有一些縣市他就是先走先走的時候這整個國土計畫法他才能順利的一個推動那當然就是說其實我在這裡也特別再提出來就是天災對土地的利用的影響其實他是需要長期評估的"},{"start":10141.44,"end":10169.676,"text":"那本席的選區在台南市那台南市在這一次就是台米颱風就是因為有一些農地受到很嚴重的那個損害那我的後壁還有60公頃的農地被這一次巴掌溪的一個潰堤它所遺跡帶來的這些泥沙掩蓋到目前我們還在進行災後的一個復原跟再重新那個策劃的一個階段"},{"start":10170.737,"end":10170.918,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":10182.421,"end":10183.261,"text":"國土計畫法與地方花展必須緊密"},{"start":10202.751,"end":10228.24,"text":"那當然現階段就是台南的大新營區的一個科技產業的一個發展包括就是我的柳科第三期還有經濟部工研院在六甲區是不是有辦法變為是一個機器人的產業園區還有就是大新營科技產業上下游的一個工研院的一個發展的潛力這些建設其實不僅是在南台灣它"},{"start":10230.12,"end":10230.861,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":10254.17,"end":10271.837,"text":"充分的一個銜接這個是非常重要的那如果就是說以台南市政府他提交的一個規劃裡頭他特別提出來我本那個我把它區分為就是說在那個北台南的部分我的選區的11個區裡頭共有72624公頃的一個土地他其中有19.3是國土保育區"},{"start":10280.518,"end":10302.391,"text":"51.9是龍一龍二區超過71.2的土地其實是沒有辦法變更的那台南的產業發展會不會受影響絕對是受影響的嘛所以我也希望就是說在考量未來大新營地區的一個產業發展的趨勢它必須要加速發展的前提之下我們希望就是功能分區的一個規劃"},{"start":10303.812,"end":10331.433,"text":"可以更貼近地方的一個發展的一個趨勢當然我一再的強調就是說大型科技產業的S狼帶這個關鍵的一個拼圖跟地方產業的一個轉型跟國土計畫規劃法其實都有年代的一個重要的一個關鍵性關聯性所以我想就是這個婚期的規劃其實就決定我們地方發展的一個命運"},{"start":10332.233,"end":10334.414,"text":"接下來請雲林科技大學科技法律研究所王福清教授"},{"start":10362.089,"end":10372.727,"text":"主席、各位來賓、大家好我是雲林科技大學科技法律研究所我今天要談的是"},{"start":10373.877,"end":10396.232,"text":"法制面法制面我覺得國土計畫法我是非常支持這個計畫法非常支持但是我覺得國土計畫法少了一個很重要的零件就是補償就是補償條款因為我是留學德國的我當然贊成草案權要公益犧牲草案權要社會義務但是過度負擔的時候"},{"start":10404.458,"end":10405.24,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":10417.163,"end":10445.449,"text":"就我們這個在留學德國的背景還有整個我們台灣這個財產權的保障事實上都受這個叫公益犧牲特別犧牲這個法律思想的影響舉凡特別犧牲就應該受到法定的補償那我想國土計畫法裡面對龍一龍二這個限制性是非常強的非常思想固然龍地可以"},{"start":10446.289,"end":10446.81,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10463.79,"end":10483.679,"text":"大法院一路上都講這個思想包括最近的憲法法院110年憲判之第15號他講什麼呢那個龍田水利啊龍田水利的渠道啊渠道經由私人土地造成私人土地沒辦法完全使用的時候也是要給他補償"},{"start":10484.929,"end":10503.257,"text":"更何況我們對這個農地、農用這種過度的限制怎麼會沒有補償條款呢所以你看我們整個盜版解釋精神其實都要強調一遍只要預約社會所應該忍受的限度的話就應該給補償"},{"start":10504.437,"end":10504.917,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10518.2,"end":10525.002,"text":"當然這個補償也不是只有給這個補償的經濟損失但是我們還是要說這個補償經費也應該益助於成立農業農產專區發展產業園區還有因為雲林縣是一個農業大縣災損也非常嚴重我想這個基金用途也很多"},{"start":10544.247,"end":10544.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10565.408,"end":10565.868,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10591.747,"end":10599.936,"text":"草案權限制來自法律,所以法律的限制超出草案權的社會義務性界限的時候就應該有補償條款"},{"start":10605.31,"end":10614.436,"text":"當然知道我們就農一農二對農民的補償限制是非常大的所以我是強烈建議應該在國土計畫法裡面32條之一給他補償的條款"},{"start":10629.79,"end":10635.973,"text":"農民農地農用我覺得是屬於用特別犧牲所以我強烈主張國土計畫法裡面應該有一個補償條款出現"},{"start":10643.117,"end":10667.764,"text":"這補償我想有補償就是社會義務性跟失權之間一個很大的平衡就是什麼叫一個平衡呢就是我們這個農地要有社會義務要農地要有社會犧牲農地要有社會貢獻可是失權要保障所以我覺得這個補償條款就是在公益"},{"start":10668.524,"end":10692.756,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":10692.756,"end":10693.096,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10711.449,"end":10725.343,"text":"舉凡特別犧牲就應該有補償所以國土計畫法一旦增諦了這補償條款事實上也不是什麼新鮮的事因為我們很多法規這麼多法規都有證明舉要特別犧牲就應該有一個補償條款出現"},{"start":10735.161,"end":10748.084,"text":"雲泥縣真的是一個農業大縣第一類優良農地有6萬8百多公頃第二類良好農地有2萬6千6百多公頃所以在全國農業發展地區佔總面積有21.8所以可以證明的確我們雲泥縣農地有貢獻"},{"start":10764.827,"end":10764.847,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10780.848,"end":10781.488,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10804.011,"end":10818.186,"text":"至於我建議的這個國土計畫法三十一條至於這個條文我想這個雲林縣政府都有提供一個書面所以我是支持在這個條文裡面明訂這個以下條款"},{"start":10824.212,"end":10839.716,"text":"第34條之一由中央主管機關對於國土工人分區劃入農業發展地區之人民依其不同分區種類及限制強度應予合理式補償傾向補償應由中央主管機關應別類預算補償對於中央主管機關合波之補償相關費用直轄市縣市政府應專款專用而且補償用途範圍對象公視及設立特別基金"},{"start":10851.198,"end":10852.599,"text":"接下來請台18縣產業聯盟理事長黃廠豪理事長"},{"start":10888.284,"end":10914.451,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位長官還有我們在座的各位先進大家好我是來自嘉義縣阿里山就是台18縣阿里山公路沿線的我是代表我們山上的平地人來這邊發聲相較於原住民來說住在山區的平地人是被遺忘的一群"},{"start":10916.257,"end":10943.302,"text":"就我們嘉義縣來說我們有梅山鄉 有大埔鄉 有番路鄉 有朱祁鄉還有中埔鄉 這幾個有三區的鄉鎮它的人口數是好幾萬我們原民鄉是阿里山鄉阿里山鄉的人口數是5.3千但是我們整個大阿里山地區整個嘉義縣山區的村落"},{"start":10944.266,"end":10947.15,"text":"只有一個村落是太平村有做城鄉規劃"},{"start":10949.389,"end":10977.919,"text":"其他的漢人村的統統最好只畫到龍山最差的就是直接畫進國寶一那這樣子嚴重侵害到我們在地居民的我們原有的生存權我們的土地權跟工作權我們的耕作權我們是希望說我們很卑微的要求就讓我們能夠在我們原本的土地上過原本的生活就好我們不要什麼補償"},{"start":10979.159,"end":10994.407,"text":"我們要求很卑微就這樣希望能夠重視而且山上的平地人不是只有加一線油全台灣其實是占很大多數的但是平地人沒有什麼山上平地人委員會沒有人替我們發聲對啊那我們的這個東西"},{"start":11002.688,"end":11031.894,"text":"跟原住民比起來我們就是差人家一大截我們旁邊的原住民村落雞犬相吻走路五分鐘就到了結果咧他們小到一個零都有城鄉發展區的規劃一個零喔那我們咧農山然後最可以劃到那個什麼國保區國保區你的房子不影響你現在合法居住使用但是未來咧你的房子破了你就只能普"},{"start":11032.984,"end":11047.128,"text":"那你要翻修整件呢你就得用國保一的那個限制去做那你們知道國保一在建築用地的那個容積率容許量變多少嗎10%那我一個30坪的建地我剩10%我要蓋什麼蓋一間廁所嗎"},{"start":11053.906,"end":11076.784,"text":"所以我是希望說能夠重視到而且這個根本就是跟我們的憲法第7條土地權是我們的憲法保障的基本權利我們享有的權利不應該去分種族我們應該尊重憲法第7條給我們不管是任何種族一律平等的對待標準"},{"start":11078.744,"end":11088.696,"text":"我們不要任何補償我們很卑微的只要求說我們在我們的地方能夠按照我們原本生活的方式去生活然後給我們應有的規劃空間"},{"start":11091.731,"end":11115.671,"text":"因為我們一路上來因為我們地區也做過所謂的鄉村綜合規劃我實際上也參與過那一路來所有的公聽會我們都有參加過那很抱歉我剛剛教授說的因地制宜有放彈性給地方政府但是呢送到中央審議委員會就打回去了縣政府只好摸著鼻子回去"},{"start":11116.886,"end":11132.312,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":11132.759,"end":11161.621,"text":"我想起我那個31年前我爸爸他們在衝衝的時候那時候為了爭取山區沿線國有基地的時候那時候我才國中現在我兒子念高中了我還在替我的地方爭取土地權益那是不是我兒子跟我一樣大30年後他還要站在這個地方來爭取他的權益勒為什麼這個問題要這樣一直讓我們世襲下去勒"},{"start":11163.238,"end":11191.032,"text":"這是一個民主國家能夠發生的事情嗎所以我希望說我們沒有那個所謂的家國情懷什麼要那麼遠大的抱負我們很卑微的要求只要我們只能夠在我們故鄉裡面好好的生存下去而已然後另外因為我們有發現到國土計畫沒有針對觀光發展做妥善的配適"},{"start":11192.513,"end":11207.009,"text":"就拿阿里山生理二區他是一個國際級的觀光景點那很遺憾他整個被化為國寶一那代表什麼他以後裡面那些飯店什麼你就只能修不能再建"},{"start":11209.058,"end":11236.873,"text":"對,那這個東西呢我覺得說我們以往的觀念有點錯誤喔你就在山上的地方它就讓你維持現狀你永遠都只能維持下去所以才會發生那個什麼英帝國外面一堆鐵皮屋嘛因為我們鐵皮屋都是國有基地那你只能修那修就只有鐵皮這樣那原本諸約寫的鐵皮屋那你的換約九年換約一次你就要維持鐵皮屋的狀態你才能換約"},{"start":11239.18,"end":11267.441,"text":"這對我們來說是非常不合理的然後對未來觀光的長遠發展也是非常對我們這些在地人看來是沒有明天的一個未來這樣子然後剛剛有有一些教授有提到一些國外的例子像提到北海道啊像法國啊很好啊但是你有考慮到我們的人口密度嗎北海道人口密度是每平方公里66人啊"},{"start":11269.158,"end":11290.384,"text":"台灣人口密度每平方公里600多法國人口密度每平方公里110多個人所以需要說不同的人口密度對土地資源的需求是不一樣的但是很遺憾在國土計畫上面好像都沒有考量到這一點"},{"start":11292.583,"end":11316.538,"text":"希望說各位先進能夠好好的去思考一下那這個法條是好的我也希望它能夠推行下去但我們希望說它在推行的時候能夠盡量的去照顧到所有的居民所有不要去侵害到居民的原本的權益這樣謝謝"},{"start":11322.574,"end":11325.537,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請林黛嬅委員好 那個本席啊針對國土新法倉促上路必定影響民眾權益那我相信今天整場的公聽會執行到現在"},{"start":11342.078,"end":11353.432,"text":"我們大家都非常敬重邱文彥、邱老師、邱教授但是這一路您在推動但是現在公佈至今可以說是用全民大反彈"},{"start":11355.283,"end":11372.457,"text":"來形容現在這個法案所以我也要請我們相關的部門包括內政部主責要很清楚今天我這個國土計畫法上路之後我解決了什麼問題而不是在製造無限的問題我現在看不出你所面對的問題現在所有的民怨"},{"start":11382.216,"end":11383.237,"text":"本席就一一的爬書"},{"start":11409.762,"end":11430.503,"text":"國土計畫的功能延遲繳交這是現況那就是有些縣市基於地方的陳情暗塞太多他算不出來好那第二個國土計畫法的爭議那本席也把我所見所聞來跟大家做個分享第三個國土計畫法的挑戰跟困難第四個民眾權益如何保障"},{"start":11431.084,"end":11431.304,"text":"最後我有具體建議"},{"start":11448.336,"end":11455.662,"text":"好 這個延遲繳交我目前是到原則上113年12月以前內政部國審會就要進入到審議了那今年的6月就陸續報佈那確實狀況如何呢現在到5月現在為止未繳交的還有8個縣市"},{"start":11469.693,"end":11483.404,"text":"國土工人分區劃分的爭議本席所見所聞跟大家分享第一個劃分土地使用分區時部分地區認為劃分方法未能兼顧經濟發展跟環境保護"},{"start":11486.647,"end":11507.297,"text":"第2個農業發展地區劃設是過於嚴苛恐會影響人口增長或經濟發展需求更高這是本席非常匪夷所知我們現在國土計畫法叫做神的法案它完全沒有個案變更有它的個案變更只在於什麼那來地方五年通盤檢討全國的十年通盤檢討就本席所接到的選民服務只要地方五年通盤檢討一下它都得搞十年"},{"start":11516.817,"end":11518.177,"text":"公共設施用地的規劃不夠充足可能造成日後的基礎設施是不足的"},{"start":11543.602,"end":11558.477,"text":"三地聚落的劃分不能因原住民跟非原住民而有不同而要適用這樣的國土計畫法我們現在國土計畫我同樣在一個山區因為我是原住民身份我可以開發我不是原住民身份我在這個山區我不能開發我被你限制住了"},{"start":11560.015,"end":11563.24,"text":"通盤檢討五年一次缺乏個案邊桿機制阻礙區域發展末收地方首長對一個城市發展的權益完全沒有地方發言權這是神的法案專制的法案"},{"start":11574.855,"end":11576.916,"text":"民間反彈就嚴格的土地使用管制可能影響部分民眾跟團體的權益我榮地違規工廠"},{"start":11600.151,"end":11613.364,"text":"我現在已經在變更當中了你們踩不踩幾乎一刀切全部都不用了都從頭來了都市跟因為我經濟部中部辦公室在處理的就是非都市計畫內的農地上工廠"},{"start":11615.768,"end":11636.218,"text":"你們現在全部我們花了多大的力氣在農地上工廠的合法根本沒有限地合法這件事情如果有人說農地上工廠是就地合法那是在騙人每一個哪一個不是遵照相關的法規在執行好現在你這個審討下去之後我都市非都市計畫內的農地上工廠全部化為無有"},{"start":11639.62,"end":11653.504,"text":"都市更新的整備地區原住民部落我們也反彈宗教的相關的所有的團體也在反彈你這個法之後我新辦中的沒有新辦已經申請的還會達到更地變更的我已經新辦已經完成那也還沒達到變更的這些全部都沒有欸這些你們全部都不認了按照現在來講全部不認你們說你們這是在製造台灣的動亂"},{"start":11665.268,"end":11673.812,"text":"好部門的衝突國土計畫法涉及的是多個中央跟地方政府的部門的權責跟責任內政部經部部農業部環保署現在是環境部部門之間對國土的目標原則指標分區等方向有不同的看法或利益考量就會產生溝通協調上的困難跟衝突"},{"start":11688.079,"end":11706.73,"text":"執行效率你國土計畫要求中央與地方在一定期限內完成各級國土計畫的制定跟實施並定期檢討跟修正但是國土計畫是一項龐大且複雜的系統需要投入大量的人力物力跟時間你們的人力在哪裡你國土計畫變更的人力在哪裡"},{"start":11710.851,"end":11738.641,"text":"行政中央跟地方的公務人員就好他本身對國土計畫法的認知是有一致嗎沒有我的人民認為我這個是開發區啊你政府認為是地方政府也認為是開發區啊你中央送上來不好意思我認為是國土保護區啊這就是現況好執行效率所以當然一定會你們光是公務人員體系中央地方有沒有一致的認知"},{"start":11739.654,"end":11756.141,"text":"這沒有的好再來規劃劃設是不夠周全的連我們農業部前部長都說國土計畫法在完整三路前的執行過程背道是未到位的張景生政委他也發表在記者訪問他也講他說這個會是另外一個國土災難好這個風險有哪幾個風險一第一個難以達成國土計畫法的終止目標這才是本席"},{"start":11767.635,"end":11778.77,"text":"我相信在這邊發言的人沒有人說他不支持我們的國家永續發展不支持環境保育沒有人我相信"},{"start":11779.841,"end":11781.662,"text":"全球因海平面上升造成土地跟農地的受影響國家排名台灣名列前茅啊"},{"start":11799.159,"end":11810.988,"text":"這將環境變遷國科會所提出的國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年現象衝擊及調適報告中更指出台灣各地所面臨的海平面上升的威脅"},{"start":11812.125,"end":11813.847,"text":"所以剛才你的標準我全部一一給你破解掉"},{"start":11837.402,"end":11865.635,"text":"兩岸風險的增加自給率絕對向低龍一的面積是少於區域化區域計畫法中的特定農業區唷這句話是現在各縣政府呈上來你的龍一面積竟然是少於我區域化法的特定農業區你說你要講什麼農業自主那個糧食自主率啊第二個原本只要約有3至4萬公頃河川地在不影響防洪的前提下長期做農業使用是台灣重要"},{"start":11866.636,"end":11878.31,"text":"蘇菜瓜果的產地卻被列為國土保育區你看看我台灣西海岸河川地都在種植你現在劃下去國土計畫法之後好你說什麼良安"},{"start":11879.113,"end":11888.18,"text":"那個是我重要的蔬果瓜菜類啊你們有沒有考慮到現況第三個我現在講本席講的本席當了七屆的立委來自地方我現在講的都是實況第一次計畫下的10萬公頃的農地當中農業鋪陳盤點有近3萬公頃的是優良的農地英方在農業發展地區的第五類但最後各縣市政府卻是依據地方發展需求將大部分符合完整且高比例農用"},{"start":11908.716,"end":11929.197,"text":"條件的榮地放入城鄉發展區這在屏東縣送上來的一清二楚他能夠高風險他全部這個是縣長英明說實在如果我是來自地方我會支持這樣做我要逃避你嘛但是真的有達到你的目的良安沒有最後上述三個地區加總超過10萬喔我河川地我10萬公…都市計畫下的10萬公頃的榮地"},{"start":11931.96,"end":11952.217,"text":"包括你農業的面積這個超過10萬公頃是重要生產地的農地卻未列入優良農地的範圍這樣的農業發展地區劃設恐讓台灣的農業生產力降低導致糧食自主力下降提高糧食安全的風險風險三 農地管理及品質未提升"},{"start":11953.077,"end":11977.705,"text":"農業部原來是預計將全國國土計畫劃設地區來模擬農醫的面積是多少33萬7千公斤但各縣市政府報上來的農醫才多少27萬7千公斤相較之下少了6萬公頃倘若土地管治管理制度為能合理配套處理必定造成農業生產力下降"},{"start":11979.266,"end":11983.108,"text":"聽清楚 這個數據不是我講的 是現在送上來的資料風險是阻礙農業發展許多農業休閒地區或農場被劃為國土保育地區限縮了具百億元價值的休閒農場的發展若以為將山坡地直接劃為國土保育區就可以達到保育目的卻不細緻區分環境敏感程度及影響輕重"},{"start":12005.558,"end":12011.582,"text":"除了畫色成果完成和事實有嚴重落差更會造成保育跟農業的雙數好這個是我們地方議員我這個高雄整個在這個整個山區高雄縣市合併12年這是我以市議會有議員他提出來的"},{"start":12023.729,"end":12039.077,"text":"城鄉差距卻愈來愈大我高雄縣市六都當中又與高雄市的城鄉落差最為嚴重好我就以他這句話東高雄其美九區人口流失嚴重好城鄉均衡發展地方要求要有適宜性的產業發展"},{"start":12040.818,"end":12063.595,"text":"這是我們來自山區喔都是農作的喔他也希望有能夠有產業發展增加就業機會合理化的預算分配跟優化基礎交通名聲是他們不是要蓋工廠但是他希望在農業的部分有農業的有農業的一個一個產業化好但是我們畫這下去我整個東九區全部都叫做保育區了"},{"start":12064.993,"end":12068.634,"text":"民眾權益如何保障國土計畫法實施前民眾已依區域計畫法等相關規定提出新辦計畫及申請用地變更為程序尚未完成後續怎麼辦理目前內政部說不出話來他們只有NO好 那這個可嚴重了"},{"start":12083.098,"end":12102.502,"text":"我未完成新辦事業計畫的第二種是已完成新辦計畫何種未完成使用變更編訂的再來第三種已完成新辦事業計畫及使用土地變更但未完成地級異動變更的各位長官這個如果今天國土計畫法真的在明年5月1號實施不好意思這三個全部化為烏有"},{"start":12112.779,"end":12114.78,"text":"我具體要求國土工人分區劃分範圍較大不應剛性的一刀切分區劃分與法規應依地制宜且有個案變更的程序保有土地你說要保運就現有的區計法法加嚴處理就可以了"},{"start":12134.963,"end":12135.543,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":12156.249,"end":12178.05,"text":"好再來第一個本席認為各部會對於土地發展的目標不一應該由行政院主責協調各部會並配合國家重大發展的政策使國土計畫法花費最大效益第二個應給予地方政府較多的自主性以因應當地區域發展的需求現在每一個地方政府秘方所長奪平不分藍綠"},{"start":12179.366,"end":12182.408,"text":"好 你這樣一線是整個地方發展首長都沒有話語權了啊連說話的講的話都是空頭白話哪一個產業不需要土 你講到任何東西都要土地啊好 重新檢視全台國土工人分區劃分設必要時派源縣地勘查派源縣地勘查以利劃設這個合適的分區第四個優先保留原生聚落的縣況好 像這個我就有意見"},{"start":12209.306,"end":12237.676,"text":"你在山區當中人家這邊四代居住已經住了三四代了好那你就叫欸這個本來呢這個從35平可能變成了60平或者70平好現在呢你你到底國土計畫法是從你現在是70平這個現況認定還是說你們你們現在會引起民怨就是說好你現在原來按照現在的法規喔你還是只能35平啦但是你現在60平喔可以我允許你你要繳回饋金"},{"start":12238.616,"end":12264.128,"text":"這是你們的做法我們政府單位做法但本期的做法就不是這樣我說你既然新法就新法認定你現在變成60坪我就認定你60坪好那你的污水處理我就要求你在山區當中檢疫的污水你要搬下去啊檢疫污水10萬塊就處理掉了政府可以補助啊這就是不會引起民怨我可以達到我環境的保育我可以兼顧我山區長久居住的居民的權益好"},{"start":12267.895,"end":12283.483,"text":"好那最後我具體建議啊這個我這個希望啊主席啊本席在這邊很難得看到一個可以藍綠有共識的法案好我絕對支持我們立法院的言議希望主席你要有尬子"},{"start":12284.91,"end":12295.497,"text":"對於全民大反彈的法案我希望這個主席你真的要有尬子堅持在我們大家整個民意的收成之下你一定要全力讓他通過讓我們立法院的版本通過延長本期都認為不是延長啊都應該廢掉期限"},{"start":12300.22,"end":12303.582,"text":"你趕快先通過了哪幾個區?你的台北市、金門、連江線、加一線它整個區都是都市計畫的區域啊你趕快先行啊"},{"start":12319.073,"end":12322.155,"text":"其他有的你可以慢慢的爬說哪幾個縣市你到底遇到什麼問題我去再爬說的第二階段我再來做也許相關的你要達到國土計畫法的這些這五個你的宗旨那我們再去爬說你可以怎麼做可是第一個階段循序漸進你這幾個縣市就可以讓他縣市先行了"},{"start":12338.952,"end":12362.552,"text":"我剛才就具體建議台北市金門縣連江縣加一市全區都是都市計畫他就先做吧其他的我們就再慢慢再討論嘛每一個北南都有分別東西都有分別所以我覺得這個都要兼顧啊否則你的國土計畫法當中我也很認同這五個五項啊這五項裡面我非常非常的認同但是你沒有這個國土的強行通過之後沒有一項你能夠達到的"},{"start":12363.773,"end":12364.053,"text":"謝謝以上好 謝謝"},{"start":12395.628,"end":12398.797,"text":"臺大生傳系教授王俊豪教授"},{"start":12408.103,"end":12408.683,"text":"主席、各位與會的先進"},{"start":12430.711,"end":12453.311,"text":"我本身不是法律的也不是地政的不過剛剛有一個農經我們台大農學院有兩個主要的科系跟社會科學有關一個是農業經濟另外我是生產系以前是農業推廣系所以會從不同的角度來看待國土計畫法這個事情我今天幫這個列了一個標題"},{"start":12454.462,"end":12454.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12480.18,"end":12503.841,"text":"蔡博文教授他主要是負責農地所以我以下資料是借用他的因為我們在兩年的期間共同來討論那第一個事情他在我們整個共同的一個對於國土計畫法的一個期待我們的共識是要落實國土計畫法的一個精神然後要公正的控管優質農地然後解決台灣長期以來農地破碎化的一個問題"},{"start":12505.022,"end":12524.521,"text":"這是他所做的相關的一個資料根據過去40年來臺灣整個農地總面積 減少的縣市畫了出來包括說新北或咸明東苗栗臺東跟新竹特別是我們優良農地的部分是在於平地"},{"start":12527.283,"end":12543.141,"text":"其中減少最多的包括我們現在的台南、屏東、高雄、彰化還有桃園那麼這個是特別是屏東是這30年來農地減少最嚴重的一個部分而且減少的面積都是屬於平地的農地"},{"start":12544.122,"end":12544.142,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12564.308,"end":12588.634,"text":"農業部開這個會的有關於我國糧食自給率長期變動的一個趨勢那麼其中各位可以看我們大概1970年代我們糧食自給率大概是7成那麼在90年代逐漸要加入WTO之後我們糧食自給率都大概維持到3到4成那麼最新的報告我們現在糧食自給率在前兩年大概達"},{"start":12589.874,"end":12610.007,"text":"實際上大概是最低30.7那糧食安全的問題也是國家安全主要的問題那糧食的生產最終還是要回歸到農地那麼根據前幾天這個內政部人口的一個報告未來我們50年其實我們人口不會那麼多我們大概會減少800多萬"},{"start":12612.728,"end":12613.589,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":12631.152,"end":12631.272,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":12650.406,"end":12650.507,"text":"主席"},{"start":12665.282,"end":12665.522,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12681.72,"end":12682.06,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":12701.007,"end":12722.434,"text":"可是我們在現時現在提部審議的畫色的結果蠻讓人擔憂的啦就是總量還是總量看起來還是達到但是大家都把平地優良的農地把它移到散播地上面去這個是我們所看到的說我們管理的管理的是總量但是在實際上不是數量的問題而是它品質的問題"},{"start":12726.435,"end":12743.173,"text":"各縣市應該有各式各樣不同的壓力我們比較擔心的是說如果說我們把糧食生產用地移到山坡地山坡地增加了事實上對長久台灣的一個永續不想影響到生態保育也會影響到增加一些坡地的災害"},{"start":12745.419,"end":12763.92,"text":"因為我是從鄉村社會學的角度上面來看待這個事情事實上我上課第一張圖都是會跟我同學學生溝通農業問題之所以複雜在於說牽涉到人土地跟產業現在我們終於有一個國土計畫法可以好好處理農地資源永續利用的一個問題"},{"start":12764.901,"end":12776.254,"text":"但是我們在處理計畫法的時候如果各位還有印象我們以前在第一次土改第二次土改處理的都是人跟土地的關係處理所有權處於農地的經營權的問題那這些解決的一項問題"},{"start":12779.758,"end":12779.798,"text":"國土計畫法議員"},{"start":12805.714,"end":12806.295,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12818.479,"end":12819.78,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":12845.151,"end":12873.01,"text":"永續ESG的風潮包括檢探的部分它也為市場幫企業創造了一些農地額外的商機跟價值這個是已經看不到的所以守護台灣的一個農地的資源讓它有足夠的量它是未來可以不以現在的價格來決定它未來的價值才會呈現所以這一張在永地資源的守護我們才能夠有多功能的農業那各位到"},{"start":12873.999,"end":12900.82,"text":"世界各國歐洲去看有漂亮的農村還是來自於它的農業的一個經營還是來自於它土地上面的一些守護才能夠有後續的結果那跟剛剛委員不一樣的我比較柔性一點這是我在念書的時候看歐洲的文獻看德國的文獻他提到這兩句話第一個就是說農村它是都市的肺如果農村沒有辦法呼吸的話都市就會窒息那各位也可以看圖一片的房子"},{"start":12901.755,"end":12902.035,"text":"接下來請劉許廷委員"},{"start":12935.735,"end":12954.775,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們針對國土計畫法修正的公聽會進行發言這我們的主題叫做不否定理想但不忽略民意這國土計畫法現在要推行的幾個狀況我們有義務要跟大家做報告我從三個面向來做分析其一叫做政策的節奏跟配套是失靈的狀態"},{"start":12956.036,"end":12980.894,"text":"現在很多地方政府今天之所以開公聽會其實都有非常多不管是書面或者是親自的反應也好相關的配套法制其實尚未完備比如說中央各部會的法令競合還沒有解決相關的目的事業機關的一些配套的法令還沒有進入修法甚至國土計畫法的相關執法也都還沒有進行全部的公告那麼這樣子的一個狀況會導致地方政府在執行中央的遊戲規則的時候遇到非常大的障礙"},{"start":12981.434,"end":13001.635,"text":"他不只是會影響所謂的執行的成效更大的壓力其實來自於各地方政府在跟基層做溝通的時候會出現非常大的障礙如果地方的基層他們在開說明會或是什麼的時候提出了各式各樣的問題但是政府總不能拆自己中央政府的台吧說這些東西都還沒有出來畢竟是難以服眾的所以今天會出現延遲的訴求其實我們並不意外"},{"start":13004.498,"end":13033.618,"text":"我們也希望這件事情能夠妥善的來解決比如說舉個相對具體的例子現行的區域計畫的制度要轉軌到國土計畫的時候它的緩衝機制是什麼它的落日條款是什麼這就是一個很大的一個問題那現在沒有落日機制沒有緩衝的時間的情況之下就是大家就認為說土地變更要關門了所以大量的案子送到了地方政府光是因應這些個案的需求就癱瘓掉了所以說很難再抽出時間或者是在針對法案的內容或者是什麼再去做溝通跟說明"},{"start":13034.338,"end":13034.638,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":13053.129,"end":13077.265,"text":"今天我們把話挑明了來講今天為什麼會出現這麼大的一個爭議不就是因為長久以來中華民國政府始終都沒有辦法解決土地大開發主義是能夠獲取暴利最好的方式嗎以至於所有的土地所有權益這是他本來都應有而且可以被期待的利益啊有一個這麼龐大的利益在前面的時候他怎麼會希望自己的土地被認定是優良農地必須農用呢從理想的角度來講這是對的"},{"start":13078.286,"end":13107.042,"text":"但是從土地所有權人的角度來出發這不免背離人性我們如果要貫徹國土計畫法的核心精神我們的政府不是只有修這一部法令而已啊我們要用哪一些其他的政策武器啊來強力的抑制土地的炒作來強力的控管這大開發主義的後遺症恐怕是要同步並行的你才有辦法解決這個事第二從心力的角度我們的政府也沒有辦法提出完整有力而且未來性具足的農業政策"},{"start":13107.722,"end":13126.928,"text":"今天最大的爭議除了國寶地之外大概就是農業、農地、農用的問題大家一方面土地這個開發它未來的這個利益無窮相對來講我守著農地我沒有一個好的政策我的獲益有限我的人才流失我政府的所有農業政策大部分也就是補貼為邏輯發點錢給你你兌付過去就算了"},{"start":13130.09,"end":13159.35,"text":"當然我守住農地沒有誘因開發而有誘因那所有的地主當然就會不樂見國土計畫往這樣的方向來實踐所以這個民意的壓力就導致這個理想受到了很大的阻礙國土法的理想最後淪為治標而不治本的時候當然就會爭議頻傳所以我們在那邊誠懇的呼籲中央政府這個恐怕不是內政部單獨可以解決的事情行政院的高度跨部會的來針對這樣子的一個案件跟衝擊去做更完善的配套我想是有必要的"},{"start":13159.81,"end":13176.697,"text":"最後我要講第三個面向也就是執政黨在這個題目上應該要有絕對的明確的態度剛剛我們講不管是跨部會政策的協調問題或者是單就國土計畫法推動的時候的溝通跟配套的問題其實都是政府的責任到底現在的僵局啊"},{"start":13177.017,"end":13192.202,"text":"要透過修法的方式來解決嗎我們要花多少的時間來推動這些相應的配套我們該如何因應這麼多地方政府有些人土豆還沒有交有些是提了非常多的訴求有些把地方在說明會的時候民眾的意見直接帶了上來"},{"start":13193.042,"end":13221.04,"text":"這麼多的問題要如何一一梳理如何一一來因應其實都是政府的責任我們希望這件事情在經過今天的公聽會各方各面不同角度學者專家民意代表的發言之後可以讓我們的內政部讓我們甚至到行政院對於國土計畫法有更立體的了解我們也期待行政院從院的高度提出更完善的配套措施如此才有辦法在兼顧理想的情況之下讓國土計畫法順利的來推動以上 謝謝"},{"start":13225.517,"end":13230.719,"text":"好 謝謝牛許庭委員我們接下來請雲林縣農會總幹事陳志良總幹事主席各位長官各位先進大家好我是雲林縣農會總幹事我看今天大家都是針對一些政策性的問題在講"},{"start":13255.65,"end":13271.219,"text":"我這差不多三四個月以來雲林縣政府陸續在雲林縣辦了22場的說明會還有座談會所以我統合一下以農會的立場以農民的立場來講一些話"},{"start":13275.521,"end":13296.695,"text":"因為我覺得中央政府包括國土署署長在那邊以前他也有到雲林縣政府6月24其實我覺得互信的問題中央政府一直說沒有改變沒有改變區域計畫法跟那個國土計畫法沒有改變可是怎麼會沒有改變"},{"start":13298.732,"end":13306.94,"text":"很多一般農業區現在變成農一應該是要一般農業區是要化定為農二可是現在把它化定為農一農一跟農二開發的強度就不一樣了啊"},{"start":13313.268,"end":13313.528,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13335.874,"end":13353.929,"text":"他的利益就損失了所以很多農民會出來講話剛才那個鄉長說雲林縣有翻桌沒有翻桌啦問候人家父母而已啦沒有翻桌這個他特別強調一下所以負信的基礎真的沒有啦因為農民一塊土地從民國60幾年到70幾年的時候區計畫法發布的時候一塊土地用百四五十年"},{"start":13365.68,"end":13373.228,"text":"那塊土地綁了四五十年而且以前區議計畫法發布的時候沒有什麼公聽會啦因為以前那個時代齁人民如果說怎樣 會比較怎麼做啦不過現在不一樣了現在人民齁真的都會發聲啦齁人民都會抗議啦因為齁損失到我個人的權益的時候"},{"start":13387.483,"end":13415.725,"text":"我就會勇敢出來所以包括剛才講的因為很多國土計畫法跟區域計畫法大家那中央不會一直說這個都一樣都一樣可是有很多不一樣剛才濃郁這個啦還有以後邱教授以後啦以後包括我們那個建壁率的問題啦農機率的問題啦還有剛才那個林大化委員講的"},{"start":13417.116,"end":13441.324,"text":"五年檢討一次以前可以各變可是再來要五年才可以檢討一次那五年檢討一次那我那一塊土地就跟現在解釋那個廢死的解釋憲法一樣合憲可是不可以執行所以以後五年五年檢討一次的話我那一塊土地以後永永遠遠都是要當農業用地"},{"start":13444.566,"end":13459.92,"text":"所以很多人剛才很多當然我們接受不同的意見大家都說因為要維持我們國家糧食安全維持國家糧食安全沒錯可是為什麼一定是我們要維持"},{"start":13461.738,"end":13480.457,"text":"你們的地可以蓋房子我們的地只可以種稻米這個叫土地公平正義嗎不公平正義啦所以以前他是用縣區計畫法以前是用縣況編定嘛所以以前"},{"start":13480.998,"end":13510.486,"text":"紅樓202會議紅樓202會議"},{"start":13510.746,"end":13519.454,"text":"國土計畫法去強制規定我們的每一塊土地的話我覺得對地主也好對農民也好這個是一個非常大的損失所以我強烈要求什麼一定要有農業權入法剛才有一些專家學者剛才我在講他一個"},{"start":13530.99,"end":13550.602,"text":"其實我覺得真的要農業權入法為什麼因為剛才大家都有提到非常的損失一定要非常的補償因為農業權入法入法了以後我認為一定要成立一個農業安定基金農業安定基金要照顧什麼照顧農業的生產環境照顧農業的生產設施照顧農業的教育照顧農業的未來"},{"start":13558.286,"end":13581.429,"text":"永續的農業就是一定要一個農業生產 農業安定基金所以我希望不管延不延 不管延期不延期我是希望說 是不是可以農業權入法成立一個農業安定基金針對這個基金我們去照顧我們的農民"},{"start":13582.389,"end":13582.809,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":13610.819,"end":13614.241,"text":"特別的犧牲要特別的補償所以我們強烈要求農業權入法再來就是農業權下面一定要成立一個農業安定基金針對農業去補償"},{"start":13627.409,"end":13627.529,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13650.521,"end":13662.052,"text":"要成立一個要農業權入法成立農業安定基金這是我們最大的一個訴求在這裡這個建議希望我們國土署這邊可以採納 謝謝接下來請環境法律人協會秘書長郭宏儀秘書長"},{"start":13679.848,"end":13696.406,"text":"主席各位與會的專家學者大家好我是環境法院協會的郭鴻瑜律師也很感謝各位立委的插隊讓我從15號一直延到現在我這邊幾個比較基本的一個想法來先表明一下就是整個國土計畫法的"},{"start":13697.631,"end":13723.658,"text":"展延或者是延長沒有辦法解決現有的問題這邊我還是呼籲這個邱教授的想法沒有辦法解決現在的問題特別是區議計畫法對於整個國土的使用它其實是缺乏整個相關的規劃因素國土計畫法才是真正的有把相關的規劃應該考量的因素納到了這個法律從而讓這個國土的規劃它有一個規劃完整的秩序"},{"start":13724.338,"end":13746.86,"text":"那當然就是針對有一些若干條文的文字調整或修正這個部分完全不應該影響到國土計畫法的進程再來第二個是我想各位對於整個國土計畫法的架構恐怕有一個很深的誤解整個國土計畫法它是用上位的計畫去指導下位的計畫從而再落實到整個土地工能分區所以它最先出來的是全國國土計畫"},{"start":13748.341,"end":13765.273,"text":"當年剛好是106年 如果我沒有記錯的話106年內政部為了這個全國國土計畫包括開了幾場的這個公聽會跟專家學者會議而且是各部門 跨部門跟地方政府還有各個部會全部去針對每一區的使用去開了這個全國國土計畫的會議這一整年同時間還有這個違章工廠的問題要處理"},{"start":13772.037,"end":13791.137,"text":"所以那一年其實我想幾個公民團體都疲於奔命在這個國土計畫跟偽章工廠的問題所以第一個所謂的土地使用管制的問題其實它的整個上位的計畫在全國國土計畫的計畫書裡面其實已經講得很明白哪些問題應該要怎麼樣做處理"},{"start":13791.457,"end":13814.486,"text":"這是剛剛有幾位原民代表的立委他們針對原住民族的問題其實全部都寫在全部計畫裡面有關原住民土地應該怎麼樣去規劃使用而在這邊原住民土地最大的問題其實不在於回歸原住民族基本法第21條的問題而是原住民族基本法裡面傳統領域不包括私有土地的這個問題才是最大的問題為什麼"},{"start":13816.067,"end":13842.521,"text":"因為我們現在政府透過大量的把國有土地變賣為私有土地從而讓原住民族的傳統領域大量的限縮這個才是根本的問題啊所以如果原民立委真的想要解決問題不是讓所有東西重新回歸到21條而是要重新審視一下21條所謂的territory主權的問題為什麼會限縮在私有土地難道中華民國土地的"},{"start":13843.342,"end":13858.083,"text":"領土的主權會因為適有土地而喪失嗎這才是原住民族自治還要去討論的幾個問題那在這邊我也直接打開地方說亮話整個理念所謂的犧牲在於農地跟轉為非農地的限制"},{"start":13858.584,"end":13883.204,"text":"以及就是農地的市場價格的交易問題會因為整個國土計畫受到影響不要再說什麼是農業權或是什麼之類的問題如果你真的是農民這個土地被保良成優質農場或者是優質的農業土地你高興都來不及了怎麼會覺得我的農業權被犧牲這就是我一直搞不懂的地方如果我真的想務農我會想要做這個土地變更嗎"},{"start":13884.125,"end":13904.906,"text":"這是我的問題啊我今天想要做產業我會想要我這個產業做變更嗎這不是這樣的問題我們現在面臨的問題是農業用地被產業用地拿來做炒作產業用地被住宅用地拿來做炒作所以一個一個炒作那我問你現在如果說要針對土地來做農業的補償跟這個機制那我們要用什麼樣的標準來做補償"},{"start":13906.445,"end":13925.921,"text":"台北市最貴的地價來補償農業的機制嗎?產業用地來補償農業的機制嗎?所以這個地方我覺得根本我們還是要問清楚到底農民的什麼權益被影響到是使用土地的權利還是市場交易價格被影響如果單單是市場交易價格的問題"},{"start":13927.903,"end":13943.956,"text":"這個問題其實可以透過許多的方式回歸到各部會去針對土地的使用去增加使用土地它應該有的這個它原本應有的價值那為什麼最後一個卡在最後一裡錄我想剛剛我已經講的蠻明白的"},{"start":13946.252,"end":13963.246,"text":"最後我們還是會問整個國土計畫法的實施會不會限制到農民財產權的或者是說相關人民的財產權會因為計畫法就是會限定到土地的使用的利益是不會被影響但是土地的交易價格會受到影響"},{"start":13963.686,"end":13977.902,"text":"但這個交易價格的影響會不會超過土地的社會義務我覺得這邊我是打三分炮這邊我跟王教授的見解可能就不太一樣到底什麼樣的土地使用限制會造成土地社會義務的逾越我想這個大家可以"},{"start":13978.643,"end":13986.389,"text":"中小企業沒有產業用地可以使用因為被炒作得太高了所以他們不得不去農地找工廠找使用的土地而農業土地真正想務農的因為土地被炒作得太高了他們只好去成豬土地"},{"start":14008.547,"end":14026.332,"text":"所以所有的問題都卡在土地價格的飆漲所以我們現在必須透過使用方式讓本來的土地該怎麼做使用不要因為被炒作而讓真正有需求的人沒有辦法獲得土地去做使用所以我想這個部分可能是需要去釐清的那再來就是"},{"start":14028.013,"end":14047.409,"text":"國土計畫法的10年檢討一次跟這個5年檢討一次會不會太長?我這邊其實也是呼應鄭安庭教授的說法其實我們從氣候變遷的角度來看氣候變遷的變異非常的快速你說10年檢討一次或者是5年通常檢討一次我覺得可能是確實有點太長"},{"start":14048.55,"end":14073.998,"text":"他可能可以縮短因應未來各種土地使用的這個因應跟團圓性因為未來的氣候巨災我們都不知道會發生在什麼時候所以為什麼國土計畫裡面有一張特別針對國土富裕的地方寫得這麼清楚現在全球的趨勢都在於所謂的土地使用的恢復歐盟在今年通過了自然恢復法他就是要針對所謂的生物多樣性跟生物多"},{"start":14079.242,"end":14103.781,"text":"全球區市都在對於土地的他應該要有的功能跟土地應該要有的價值包括生物多樣性的種種都在做回復的動作我們反而對於這樣子的法案不繼續去做推進反而是因為土地交易價格的問題卡在這邊沒有辦法繼續往前所以我覺得這個部分其實是大家還是要回頭思考說到底國土"},{"start":14105.143,"end":14122.578,"text":"國土計畫法終究是一部土地規劃的法律它不是要用來解決所有的利益問題所有的其他利益問題包括農業權的問題回歸到農業法院條例包括其他產業的問題回歸到工廠管理輔導法它不是一套"},{"start":14123.539,"end":14148.954,"text":"要用一個國土空間規劃的思維要來解決所有人的需求把所有不應該放在空間使用規劃的法律的相關的權益問題全部要在這部法律裡面解決這個是我覺得大家可能要理清每一部法律有它想要達到的目的而這一部法律想要達到目的就是很單純的我們的國家的土地應該要考量哪些面向去做土地的使用規劃"},{"start":14149.995,"end":14178.007,"text":"那當然在個案變更的方面在國土計畫法裡面不是沒有但是比較嚴格限縮它其實是有一個許可開發了這個相關的機制但是這個要件相對於過去區域計畫法的思維它是嚴格序都沒有錯但它並不是完全的沒有這樣子的機制最後我還是要說高雄市已經提出土地使用分區的這個部分了所以那個高雄市的立委說他們高雄市沒有辦法提出來我不知道是發生什麼事了"},{"start":14188.08,"end":14207.927,"text":"謝謝謝謝郭律師本席在一開始開會的時候就有宣告我們每兩位專家學者發言之後如果有立委有簽到要發言的我們會安排一位立委發言所以我們也沒有讓立法委員插隊"},{"start":14209.467,"end":14210.028,"text":"馬文君委員王育民委員"},{"start":14224.374,"end":14233.679,"text":"謝謝主席在場的專家學者還有代表還有我們行政部門的同仁我想有關於國土計畫法現在要上路然後引發的爭議的確是不少那我想全國民眾大家都不會反對國土計畫法的精神就是說基於環境的永續"},{"start":14247.006,"end":14250.949,"text":"這個一定是要去面對的問題但是現在大家去探究的就是實質要落實到全國各縣市的時候它的確是遇到了困難我必須很坦誠的講就是過去我擔任不分區的委員還沒有開始深入走到地方的時候可能會覺得說這樣立法法沒有問題但這一次"},{"start":14270.999,"end":14296.732,"text":"我深入走到嘉義縣阿里山就是進到山區之後我開始發現說我們有一些的法它其實是利益良善但是要落實的時候如果那個過程你跟地方的溝通是不足的你沒有在乎人民的感受跟聲音或者是去理解他真正在乎的是什麼那這個法可能到一半的時候就會像這次的國土計畫法"},{"start":14297.552,"end":14311.185,"text":"就是即將要上路了但是反彈的聲音很大這一次你可以看到在國會裡面就是是藍綠的委員大家都有這樣的一個疑慮而且提出來所以今天才會又有這樣的一個公聽會而且會有暫緩的聲音那我覺得解決問題就是面對人民的意見跟聲音我們就很務實的攤開來討論這個才會有解方"},{"start":14321.675,"end":14322.175,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":14328.84,"end":14356.637,"text":"那這個問題我在這個院會質詢的時候也問過卓永泰院長那卓院長他在施政報告的時候他提到他說他的施政都是以人出發為考量我很認同我很認同所以我也提醒他在國土計畫法推動的過程當中當地人的感受非常的重要你必須聽見聽進去而且想辦法看他們這些意見跟聲音我們到底要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":14358.118,"end":14362.76,"text":"所以今天我也特別謝謝阿里山嘉義縣這邊我們黃理事長他剛剛的發言我也聽到他是很真誠的從他們在這片土地生活這麼久今天這個法就會影響到他而我們有沒有在乎他們的聲音他們可能不是最多數的人"},{"start":14376.707,"end":14404.735,"text":"但是他們在嘉義縣這樣的一個山區的地方生活那麼久每次法的變動他們就要擔心受怕他的下一代還可不可以在這片土地生活我覺得居住權這是一個最基本的權益啊那這些這麼細微的事情我們考量到了嗎恐怕沒有就是沒有我也問過劉士芳部長你有親自到第一線聽過嘉義縣阿里山這些山區的鄉民的意見嗎他們在乎的是什麼"},{"start":14405.535,"end":14434.525,"text":"我跟各位報告我去那邊兩次晚上的時間聽鄉民怎麼說他們只是焦慮我可不可以在這片土地繼續生活我可不可以繼續我種茶葉的可不可以繼續種我種咖啡可不可以繼續種如果我的下一代他要繼續我們說希望青年返鄉他的心願很單純我兒子現在大二他回來就是繼續接我家裡的工作他未來還有沒有前景"},{"start":14435.305,"end":14435.345,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":14454.398,"end":14454.919,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":14472.042,"end":14474.083,"text":"你沒有親自招待座談會嗎?"},{"start":14474.083,"end":14497.47,"text":"劉思芳部長跟我說他沒有啊我說你有聽過阿里山鄉親他們真正意見是什麼?他說沒有我說可不可以我們一起再去聽一遍他說好但現在都還沒有安排我要講的是涉及到人民土地的這件事情你的執行過程要夠細膩而且溝通是要雙向的而不是我下令要你做什麼而且鄉親他反映一個"},{"start":14499.23,"end":14527.004,"text":"這個剛剛也有早上也有一個學者提出來現在各個縣市政府他的套土啊他說引用的這些資料年代比例圖他們的這些精緻程度不一樣也有誤差率請問當你要剝奪一個鄉親的土地判他是國宜是不是國宜的時候你是用套土的還是實地去看的去丈量的當鄉親有意見的時候你有沒有很細膩的去處理他的問題沒有啊"},{"start":14527.964,"end":14555.487,"text":"加一縣這些鄉親告訴我就是說你塗一套然後就告訴我但是你從來他從來沒有看到有人實際到現場來丈量來判斷這樣的土地到底是不是適合劃入國一他是用套土的所以我覺得這個是發生在我們為什麼政策不能上路你執行的過程第一個缺乏雙向溝通第二個是你沒有一個很細膩的執行第三個人民的聲音好像聽不見"},{"start":14556.648,"end":14556.928,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14577.932,"end":14577.952,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14599.872,"end":14599.992,"text":"《國土計畫法》"},{"start":14627.242,"end":14640.726,"text":"所以我希望這個議題其實大家不用是針鋒相對也不用對立就是鄉親提出來這些疑問我覺得作為政府作為民代我們就是來協助他幫助他解決我想這是最好的辦法 謝謝好 謝謝王育民委員接下來游浩委員"},{"start":14668.425,"end":14694.71,"text":"謝謝趙偉還有今天舉辦公聽會還能夠讓許多的專家學者包括立法委員以及許多的人士都能夠來表達反應對於國土計畫法還有的許多的一些地方的意見跟專業的見解那我剛開完刀那想說這一案國土計畫法對於南投其實也是影響非常的重要所以說不管怎麼樣那今天想說就一定要發言還是謝謝趙偉的安排"},{"start":14696.67,"end":14697.731,"text":"民意代表是反對國土計畫法也沒有一個民意代表是"},{"start":14720.849,"end":14747.787,"text":"反對國土計畫法的立法精神或目的今天一切大家所提到的就是在爭議如何能夠被討論以及爭議如何能夠被解決所以今天開這個公聽會的一個目的那當然說其實過去來講國土計畫法它的一個推展到現在是不是能夠暫緩本席還是要特別的強調一下"},{"start":14749.128,"end":14765.08,"text":"暫緩兩年也好那其實都不是說讓國土計畫法不要去實行而是希望在實行的過程中能夠減少許多的爭議爭端因為在第一線的民眾在尤其是剛才不管是王玉敏委員甚至我是代表南投縣在"},{"start":14766.06,"end":14789.603,"text":"這個南投的許多的農民或是在縣府以及我們許多的鄉親在溝通的時候其實民眾的對於國土計畫法很多的一個狀況的細節的一個無法了解那所以導致這個國土計畫法目前在推動以及包括功能圖有九個縣市他沒有辦法來去第一時間做繳交因為繳交了之後他所影響的其實是"},{"start":14790.103,"end":14790.343,"text":"委員會提供書面意見"},{"start":14809.078,"end":14837.696,"text":"將近是不到3%的空間去做所謂的都市發展那50萬的難同情而已堪那如果說在推動政策之前能夠有更積極的溝通那重點是真正的能夠傾聽民意所以暫緩實施的部分他不是不讓國土法去推動而是在這個實施暫緩的過程中能夠真正的因地制宜那這個不是歷史工業這個是藍綠的共識但是以大家的共同作業"},{"start":14838.556,"end":14863.994,"text":"那本期在這裡還是要特別去提到一下攸關臺灣重大的國土計畫法那在總質詢的時候本期也提到相關的執法的進度那國土管理署那時候有提到目前總共23項在113年7月31日已經完成國土計畫法施行細則等14項執法但是包括在2024年11月年底能夠完成發布完成的比例大概是60.87%"},{"start":14866.095,"end":14878.639,"text":"那如果說以該屬113年10月25日召開的目的事業法律因應國土計畫法實施的修正方向及辦理行程延長會議的記錄總共相關的盤點的目的事業法律共52部計94個條文涉及到內政部"},{"start":14881.56,"end":14907.99,"text":"農業部經濟部的13個部會來相關優先修正法律可是目前這些法律在實施的過程中他們在地方縣市政府也是要等著相關的執法出來了之後才能夠去相關完成配套以及包括在公認圖的調查所以如果說在完成比例是在60.87%那如何要讓地方的縣市政府還能夠來進行一個完整的配合"},{"start":14908.59,"end":14928.04,"text":"我相信這是一個很大的問題所在所以那時候總直轄的劉志旺部長說暫緩兩年爭議還在可是如果說這個爭議能夠在這兩年來講把它降到最低我相信這才是我們大家主要的一個目的舉例來講南樓縣政府在辦理國土計畫作業需要協助的事項像地震處就提到了"},{"start":14928.956,"end":14953.265,"text":"本縣的39萬公頃 佔了95%農山的原則傾向10782的一個涉及所有相關土地所有權人那時候南德縣政府有提到國保的範圍是不是有些是應該是在農用的部分應該化為農山那無危害水土保持的林業用地也要成為能夠設定為農山那目前的話也都還沒有一個"},{"start":14954.245,"end":14971.1,"text":"明確進度包括在調這個圖資資料的時候藍樓村政府如果說直接向其他的單位來調這相關的資料在請求行政協助的事項上並沒有強制力所以說他的這個院的應該要提升到功能圖應該提升到院的層級會比較適合"},{"start":14973.602,"end":15000.33,"text":"因為時間有限所以包括後面的話我們有提到不管是在觀光的部分那這個相關的倉促實施會影響到整個南投縣農業發展能夠去做實用實到的相關申請的部分其實通通都還是目前所南投縣遇到的問題甚至在原住民剛才那個老師有提到的微型聚落的部分以三棟為原則應該事實的應該像本縣目前的生活習慣幾乎是為兩棟"},{"start":15002.27,"end":15002.39,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":15022.868,"end":15034.054,"text":"還是回歸一個本意大家都希望一個健全的國土計畫法讓我們國土使用完整但是爭議要降到最低我相信才是民意代表反映基層民意的真正目的謝謝好 謝謝有號委員接下來請武麗華委員謝謝主席"},{"start":15052.341,"end":15081.189,"text":"在這裡跟所有與會的行政長官以及學者專家來賓說聲大家午安我是山地原住民所選出來的山地原住民立委代表今天參與國土計畫法的修正草案我有一些話想要跟大家說這部法對原住民來講絕對是百年大忌因為我們等了一百多年"},{"start":15082.406,"end":15100.754,"text":"日本人來的時候呢把原住民的土地也就是祖居地以山林國有這樣的名義全數的來接管緊緊分配給原住民這些所需要的家屋農耕用地被稱之為三人所要地"},{"start":15102.046,"end":15128.084,"text":"國民政府來了之後呢在1974年以前其實對於這些非都市計畫地區的土地是沒有什麼法規來約束限制的但是一旦到了1974年的區域計畫法沒有完成落實調查土地的使用現況使得像賴清德總統他們礦區那些主居地"},{"start":15129.425,"end":15145.063,"text":"還有位在原保地的這一些建物一夕之間全部變成違法所以今天談國土計畫法原住民等很久了這是盼望我們的土地合法的一線希望"},{"start":15146.264,"end":15165.71,"text":"那麼政府有承諾千萬不要跳票105年5月1號前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化我再說一次政府承諾105年5月1號前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化"},{"start":15166.69,"end":15189.098,"text":"我們引頸期盼我還記得我在109年進入立法院就參與了這個延長的修法當時我也有做出附帶決議我要求原民會以及我們的內政部要編列經費到全國各部落要去做土地調查跟說明溝通謝謝編了1億033萬元"},{"start":15194.82,"end":15222.078,"text":"結果我們調查出來目前有14萬棟的建築物是蓋在非建地上面所以如果已經蓋在合法土地上的叫第一類那麼還有105年以前既有的這些建物呢如果是在非建地上我們就是等待用國土功能分區把它土地合法化"},{"start":15223.759,"end":15249.039,"text":"105年以後才蓋的在多次的溝通討論中現在有原住民族土地使用管制規則以及一生一次這樣的規定可以讓它建物合法化再來就是未來要蓋的那一些還沒有成型的建地我們也可以透過鄉村規劃這樣的工具來完成但是我對政府有信心"},{"start":15250.08,"end":15271.606,"text":"我唯一擔心的也覺得成效會不彰的就是5月1號要面臨的問題地用合法了接下來我們的建物合法我們要水保合法我們還要消防合法可是我們幫族人去算了一下"},{"start":15272.886,"end":15301.033,"text":"為了建物的合法環境敏感地區地質敏感地區簡易的水保或者是水保計畫像原住民有很多因為過去非法沒有辦法土地貸款抵押所以我們的建物都很簡便它還需要結構安全鑑定未來明年有水污法污水的處理它是違建面對的罰款它要取得建造死照等等等"},{"start":15302.193,"end":15303.974,"text":"這樣一個簡簡單單的建物為了要合法化結果補照的費用要總計130萬我們想要問一句值得嗎?值得嗎?所以"},{"start":15317.563,"end":15334.949,"text":"我們認為我們更需要的是政府要怎麼樣來協助不要為德不足讓政府的美意還給原住民的土地正義能夠有效的落實所以我們在這邊主張提供105年5月以前的既有建築105年5月以後的建築未來預備興建的這些宿地去研議用地合法化的策略"},{"start":15347.233,"end":15373.323,"text":"另外我們也希望國土的永續基金要訂定計畫要編列經費更重要的是原住民族土地使用管制規則要趕快的公佈因為本來應該在今年1月要公佈希望內政部可以尊重原民會以及學者專家提供的一個原住民族土地最希望的使用規則我也在別的委員會"},{"start":15376.124,"end":15402.34,"text":"例如在農業部他們也部長表示會全力支持未來我們的交通部像是這些小型露營場的合法化面對的問題他們其他部位都已經答應會尊重原住民族土地使用管制規則所以我們主張國土計畫要儘速上路但是配套措施也是一刻不能等"},{"start":15402.761,"end":15404.726,"text":"需要即刻的規劃在這邊做這樣的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":15411.296,"end":15433.532,"text":"好 謝謝武力華委員那我們現在休息五分鐘讓大家可以使用洗手間休息完之後我們會請列席的機關代表來做回應同時這個也會讓各位專家學者如果有想要第二輪發言的可以進行第二輪發言好 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":15775.285,"end":15786.996,"text":"好我們繼續開會那我們現在邀請行政單位來回應說明首先請內政部"},{"start":15799.466,"end":15824.977,"text":"謝謝主席非常感謝今天出席公聽會的許多專家學者以及許多委員給我們的指教我想國土計畫法我要再一次強調它是一個非常重要攸關於國家空間治理的法案透過國土計畫法能夠有效的規範我們國家的整體空間的管理透過這樣的一個治理工具讓土地得到一個合理的發展"},{"start":15825.97,"end":15850.326,"text":"那相對於過去區域計畫法對於土地的管制而並沒有相關的規劃權事實上國土計畫法是一個更進步的法案所以我們非常感謝在2015年由邱文彥委員所領銜的包括當時的我們今天的主席徐欣英委員還有盧秀燕委員所領銜提到的國土計畫法透過這樣子的立法"},{"start":15850.606,"end":15850.886,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":15873.042,"end":15894.218,"text":"在未來我們會跟原民會積極合作就國土計畫法裡面原民區域的權益的保障原民的居住環境的問題我們透過相關的法令來做一個解決針對農業的問題我們也非常感謝今天在座許多委員的跟專家學者的指正跟指教"},{"start":15894.878,"end":15912.193,"text":"我想農業的問題台灣是一個以農立國的國家台灣也是一個重要的海島國家農業的生存跟發展與我們國家的生存發展息息相關地方部一定會跟農業部一起合作就農民的相關的權益的問題我們來進行討論事實上"},{"start":15914.275,"end":15929.266,"text":"我也要跟各位報告因為這個法令的關係我們才能夠有效去檢討我們的農業的空間的分布有效去檢討農地上面的使用的狀態甚至我們進一步將產製除消整套的農業生產體系放入國土農業空間裡面去運作"},{"start":15931.167,"end":15931.267,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":15955.063,"end":15973.539,"text":"在一定程度上開始讓我們去正視這個問題然後開始有一些工具去處理去討論所以為什麼我們把規劃權拿出來我們為什麼賦予它一個地方政府的規劃跟討論的權利都在這裡那更重要的事情是也感謝許多委員的指正事實上在這個過去裡面"},{"start":15975.06,"end":15991.563,"text":"我們內政部的同仁從立法開始2016年開始就積極不斷地跟各地方政府積極溝通討論從全國國土計畫法的制定到縣市國土計畫功能的制定到現在分區的套圖我們其實都積極地跟地方政府"},{"start":15992.383,"end":16017.819,"text":"同時與各地方積極的溝通討論包括說我們親自到許多的地方去做一些說明而有關圖資的部分我們也會定期喊請各目的事業主管集團去做檢討所以相關圖資的套點一定是根據最新的資料保障居民的權益尤其是現在透過人造衛星的方式我們可以拍攝到的是更親自的狀態所以那個點位一定是更完整更明確的"},{"start":16019.5,"end":16040.108,"text":"許多委員提醒的事實上我們都做了我們也都很引力去做未來我們會更積極的跟各縣市政府去做溝通事實上我個人還有我們的部長還有我們署長分別到各地方政府去做進行相關的拜會我們也做了多次的討論包括雲林縣我本人去了兩次嘉義縣嘉義市南投縣彰化縣"},{"start":16044.91,"end":16064.019,"text":"苗栗縣等等這些相關的縣市我們都有進行去拜會跟討論那我們署長還特別跑去台東那花蓮我也去拜會了縣長事實上我們都有相關的討論那部長親自拜會了我們臺北市長跟新北市長我想這一些的溝通我們會持續的進行"},{"start":16065.16,"end":16091.821,"text":"因為就如同許多委員的指正國土計畫法是一個攸關國人的權益的法案尤其是土地權益的法案它需要更長時間的共識的凝聚那麼內政部一定會審慎的聆聽各方的意見然後審慎來評估我們持續的去推動相關的法案讓這個法案的精神跟這個法案能夠做到的事情我們能夠更完善許多的權益的問題我們一定會帶回去進行完整的討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":16096.891,"end":16100.839,"text":"好 謝謝內政部的回應說明接下來是不是請農業部"},{"start":16112.915,"end":16135.846,"text":"感謝主席還有我們各位委員以及我們各位學者專家公民團體代表還有媒體的朋友大家的關心那事實上在今天早上我們也聽到非常多的意見給我們很多的指導我們非常感謝不過我還是要強調一件農業設施在農業政策啊我們資源的投入跟整個農業發展地區的劃設結果並沒有對價關係因為"},{"start":16141.768,"end":16157.653,"text":"農地是用來從事農業不是用來炒作就跟黃籽一樣不是用來炒作的所以沒有對照關係特別是長期以來在藍營的政府也好綠營的政府也好長期以來對於農民的關注我們是看農民過去"},{"start":16158.973,"end":16159.313,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":16180.629,"end":16180.869,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16199.324,"end":16218.326,"text":"黃誌等等各方面都已經有非常多的一直都在做那在這一次國土計畫法推動過程當中我們其實我們在整個堆疊式的這個架構因為有很多的學者關心堆疊式架構我們一直都在討論而且長期都在做分別編列在我們的農業發展基金"},{"start":16219.287,"end":16245.13,"text":"受進口損害基金還有農村再生基金這些裡面都有我們針對農民對於農地對地給付還有確保糧食安全給付還有生態環境給付跟農業設施設備的補助還有農業金融支持以及農業公共基礎建設這六大方面的貢獻所以我們所做的給付跟補助因此我們在國土計畫法"},{"start":16246.591,"end":16266.696,"text":"發射之後我們依然會把我們的龍一當作是我們的最優良的農業區那平原地區的話如果第一這個龍一的部分之外其他不符合25公頃以上的集中那從當中有80%來做農業使用如果不符合的話就歸到龍二那龍二的話我們依然"},{"start":16267.596,"end":16291.033,"text":"會把它視為是我們很重要的這個農業的生產基地那龍山的話是坡地的部分我們會按照地區的不同它那個地方在坡地沒有辦法有灌溉排水但是我們會給予龍塘或者是這些皮塘以及這些低灌設施等等給予相關的這個協助所以其實龍一龍二龍三都是我們的主要生產的基地那我們"},{"start":16292.133,"end":16293.234,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":16313.404,"end":16313.684,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":16331.912,"end":16351.884,"text":"包括這些堆疊式的這些相關的這個給付或者是補助還有輔導相關措施我們都已經準備好了所以我們非常期待我們在105年當時在立法委員們大家很認真去制定出來這條法律也能夠真的是對於我們國家的未來對於我們後代的子孫"},{"start":16352.244,"end":16352.284,"text":"主席"},{"start":16380.816,"end":16386.924,"text":"請問還有沒有行政機關覺得有需要來做說明回應的 有沒有"},{"start":16396.533,"end":16413.273,"text":"好 謝謝召委召開這個國土計畫法的公聽會那也非常感謝今天與會的我們的委員跟專家學者還有一些地方的意見領袖或者是NGO的團體所提供的一些比較具體的意見那謝謝你們的指教"},{"start":16414.688,"end":16443.027,"text":"針對剛剛所提的一些問題因為趙委員希望我們能夠做一個適當的回應那詳細的部分剛剛因為有黃人偉有特別提到我們要提一些書面資料因為他提了13項的疑點跟疑慮這個部分我們都會會後會再整理比較詳細的資料提供給各個需要書面資料的委員這邊要說明就是說《國土計畫法》其實它就是一個土地利用的一個法規的一個規範所以大家談的很多問題"},{"start":16444.628,"end":16462.539,"text":"在這個法規上不太可能全部處理它就是針對一個土地利用空間的規劃來做處理所以有很多的問題可能要回歸到目的世界主管機關去處理這邊要特別提到剛剛有委員提到或者是我們的部落的主任有提到說"},{"start":16464.362,"end":16482.037,"text":"這個國土計畫法跟這個原基法的關聯這邊要強調說這個國土計畫法的立法的內容裡面有一些條文是涉及到原住民權益的其實當時就是因為有原基法的立法有連結到原基法的相關的立法精神意志還有一些法條所以在"},{"start":16483.058,"end":16499.011,"text":"國土計畫法像23條就特別明訂原基法21條要落實執行的這樣的條文另外在很多的這個相關的一些立法的說明裡面我們都會帶到原基法23條要尊重原住民族土地利用的規模另外要尊重到"},{"start":16499.851,"end":16520.577,"text":"原計法31條有關於要尊重這個原計法的精神有些相關的法令要修正廢止或者是制定的這都是在國土計畫法立法的過程裡面會裡面一直不斷的連結原計法的精神那另外提到這個國土計畫法跟這個自治區的區法的這個關聯那我想"},{"start":16521.877,"end":16545.885,"text":"目前會裡面知識區法已經在推動就是有幾個族群在做一些專案的這個會議諮詢的這個推動那例如是太魯閣族剛剛鐵拉委員的這個族群還有盧凱族還有北南族還有蘭嶼目前都在做這些相關的這個先前的這個專案的這些規劃的諮商的這樣的一個會議在進行那要等到他們的結論以後"},{"start":16546.872,"end":16548.234,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":16556.129,"end":16582.986,"text":"限定在某些區塊像它是限定在太魯閣國家公園或是林田山的這個文化園區那有的族群是希望教育文化的部分能夠自治所以這個面向非常的廣但是會裡面持續在推動另外剛剛黃忍提到的十幾項的疑慮不管是跟這個禁法補償的關係跟土海法立法內容的這個關聯還有地價的問題我想我們會用書面資料來回應"},{"start":16583.746,"end":16598.774,"text":"最後要講的就是這個剛剛鄉長特別提到說原鄉的部落或者是異見禮秀或者是相關的人員都不太了解國土計畫法這邊要強調說國土計畫法105年已經施行以後事實上原民會有成立了推動辦公室"},{"start":16599.875,"end":16622.273,"text":"那也辦理了部落的培立15場那專家學者座談12場那原鄉說明會110場教育訓練27場這邊要再補充就剛剛也有提到我們在那個在111年到113年有特別跟那個內政部協調能夠補助一些相關的經費做一些土地原鄉部落土地調查的這樣的工作"},{"start":16623.394,"end":16623.975,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":16640.418,"end":16640.498,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":16655.766,"end":16676.32,"text":"使用規範這個草案我們原住民族土地的這個使用規範的草案已經送到內政部在8月份已經送去那目前跟內政部也召開了5次的這個協商會議那也謝謝內政部在國土計畫法推動以後不管在經費上的支持還有一些法條上大家討論的過程"},{"start":16677.601,"end":16692.171,"text":"也都非常充分的尊重原民會的意見剛剛吳委員也特別提到國土計畫法對原住民是一個有機會翻轉的這樣的一個法我們非常期待我們希望能夠盡快的推動因為"},{"start":16693.035,"end":16717.721,"text":"原住民土地剛剛從一開始就講了從民國63年區域計畫法發布以後它就是一個最強烈最強度最高的限制所以在原鄉這60年來幾乎沒有變動原鄉的建地比如說63年區域法公佈它是3公頃的建地60年後它還是3公頃它沒有改變所以也造成原鄉的人口的外移很多產業的這樣的一個"},{"start":16719.441,"end":16720.262,"text":"以上是原民會的報告"},{"start":16749.773,"end":16750.894,"text":"邱文彥 榮譽教授"},{"start":16777.78,"end":16798.851,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進非常感謝召委舉辦這麼重要的一個研討會我想這個有幾點意見拜天各位高見之後我覺得這個可能對大家對這個國土計畫法的整個內容並不是很了解因為國土計畫法是從全國分三個階段從全國國土計畫"},{"start":16800.692,"end":16826.287,"text":"中央來負責來做這個全國的一個規範然後接下來呢是直轄市跟縣市政府來做的再來我們今天討論的這個工農分區圖呢其實是依照縣市的這個或者直轄市的地方政府所做的所以今天如果是國土工農分區有問題應該倒回去看地方政府當時是怎麼做的我覺得這一點很重要因為地方政府也聘請了專業的人規劃師"},{"start":16829.241,"end":16850.472,"text":"現場勘察然後再進行規劃有公展有預展有預告有公聽會那麼今天為什麼到這個時候呢反而質疑這個我們現在的規劃好像是內政部在壓迫一樣我是覺得內政部其實是非常的委屈我想這個可能大家更了解一點"},{"start":16851.532,"end":16879.179,"text":"當然聯合國對這個比如說海洋空間規劃的時候他會用一個叫做storytelling就是說故事的方法意思就是說官方的說明應該讓民眾聽得懂用淺顯易懂的方式所以我想是第一點可能對整個國土計畫的這個精神內容其實大家對這個計畫法的精神是沒有意義的也都支持只是說技術上面應該要考慮一下我有幾點小小的意見"},{"start":16880.279,"end":16907.262,"text":"因為國土計畫法純粹是處理國土空間的問題那麼相關部會不管是原住民的問題、農業的部門我覺得這個行政院我們建議行政院應該召開這個跨部會的一個討論確定一些相關的一些步調比如說要不要延伸到這個財劃法或者是部門計畫等等有回歸到第17條的這個規定那第二個就是現在有14個"},{"start":16909.163,"end":16931.755,"text":"縣市都已經送審了那送審我建議內政部就開始分批審查第三個就是說縣市政府其實為了因應地方那麼是不是現在因為因應地方的發展那麼現在是不是剛才董事長也特別提到了是不是可以開始啟動通盤檢討那麼因應地方的一個需求的發展那麼最後是不是有這個必要"},{"start":16932.875,"end":16933.616,"text":"謝謝邱教授 請問還有嗎 有沒有要第二輪發言的"},{"start":16959.974,"end":16985.371,"text":"好,如果沒有的話我們非常感謝今天各位專家學者提供的寶貴意見國土計畫法確實是我們國家土地的根本大法也是我們國家能夠永續發展的最基本的基本法也攸關著我們全民的權益"},{"start":16987.072,"end":17002.324,"text":"本席非常遺憾我們在第8屆就通過以來歷經8年多沒有想到今天這個公聽會我們發現還有這麼多的地方政府還有地方民意代表"},{"start":17004.366,"end":17006.668,"text":"中央級民意代表．立法委員"},{"start":17024.609,"end":17052.631,"text":"該溝通有溝要有通啊因為很多我們剛剛三個行政單位回應都說我有去我也都已經見了誰我也都講了但是對方可能沒有建立共識沒有互信還有他期望的相關的行政措施或者配套措施或是相關的一些法令還沒有完備"},{"start":17053.672,"end":17053.832,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":17075.498,"end":17094.004,"text":"都會讓他們有機會參加立法院修法的討論那我們今天所有的出列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料以及高金素美委員還有圖權級委員的所提的書面資料我們除了刊登公報"},{"start":17096.357,"end":17122.384,"text":"還有對我們還有今天我們也有在事先請各直轄市以及縣市政府提供的書面意見我們除了刊登公報之外我們還會另外製作公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員以及所有出列席人員參考再一次感謝大家的參與謝謝大家今天公聽會到此結束現在散會"},{"start":17133.468,"end":17133.61,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}