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不敢不敢"},{"start":1831.462,"end":1859.603,"text":"好謝謝那個國民黨團的副總召請假副總召也生病了那民進黨的柯總召也幹事長那民進黨的柯總召也是那兩位總召都身體不舒服啊OK那臺灣民眾黨的黃總召身體怎麼樣"},{"start":1867.738,"end":1885.322,"text":"黃總召,現在兩位總召身體都不舒服,今天都請了病假了,現在就您了。謝謝各位黨團幹部列席,謝謝啊,謝謝,謝謝。謝謝我們組織長還有行政部門的列席,也謝謝各位新聞界的好朋友,謝謝大家。那我們現在正式開始進行我們的查理協商會議,謝謝大家,謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":1897.113,"end":1917.668,"text":"我們今天列席向各位黨團報告今天列席的有行政院陳主席長我們熱情歡迎我們財政部的阮次長熱情歡迎經濟部的何次長熱情歡迎好謝謝各位黨團幹部各位新聞界好朋友謝謝請大家謝謝"},{"start":1933.462,"end":1956.145,"text":"各黨代表我們繼續研商有關、「114年度中央政府總預算．含附屬單位預算及綜計表．營業及非營業部分．及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案．及113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案．民進黨黨團提議．二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":1957.546,"end":1977.421,"text":"那我們首先上一次我們參與協商結束的時候有請我們主計長跟各黨團來溝通以及還有幾天的時間能夠來跟行政院各方面各單位來溝通我們先請陳主計長來報告一下目前溝通以及研商的情形請陳主計長發言"},{"start":1980.759,"end":1997.012,"text":"謝謝院長還有各黨團的一個委員還有我們同仁大家午安那我主要是要針對就是說我是針對就是說我們第一個一個行政院的一個立場還有一個就是整個將來一個裁員的一個操作的一個方法"},{"start":1998.513,"end":2024.514,"text":"這個一個編列的現在有所爭議主要是因為依照我們憲法第70條還有預算法第91條還有財政紀律法還有財政收支法等相關的一個規定那就是所提的一個法律案大幅增加支出或減少稅務的部分要先徵詢行政機關的一個意見還有要指明相關一個資金的一個來源那因為這個程序上這個部分"},{"start":2025.374,"end":2026.815,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2042.766,"end":2060.86,"text":"原住民的一個綜合發展基金裡面先行來支應那後續年度我們再來做一個補足那再來在針對所謂的健保點值的一個部分那健保點值目前我們為了改善健保的一個財務狀況在114年度我們已經有依註健保基金336億那原來就是等於說其中有"},{"start":2068.146,"end":2071.769,"text":"建保支出的項目181億已經於公務負擔另外又增預建保基金155億建保總合依照比例提升之後﹐也可以增加500多億總共合起來增加700多億"},{"start":2084.841,"end":2113.987,"text":"這個你如果說要用健保點子健保點子是要視你的服務量整個服務量事後來看然後再去處有的醫院他服務是太多然後這個部分是怎麼樣去調整這個部分因為我們整個健保制度是採總額制並不是點子制所以這個部分還是必須要衛福部他透過整個一個落實分級醫療的配套機制逐步達到穩定醫療服務點子的一個目標"},{"start":2114.967,"end":2120.352,"text":"公糧收購方案（經過農業部審慎評估和跟產業溝通（還是認為一級二轉三加三的策略（推行三年以後（提升公糧的價格（這個部分有納兵預算（建請教會審查後（由農業部做政策的說明（以上一個補充"},{"start":2141.882,"end":2152.053,"text":"謝謝陳主席長的發言接下來針對陳主席長的發言各黨團有沒有幹部有沒有寶貴意見要提出好 我們首先請國民黨團林思明書記長請發言是 謝謝院長"},{"start":2155.73,"end":2181.681,"text":"委員長我想今天聽主席長該的發言我們很遺憾對於原住民進法補償這一部分主席長還是堅持說要在原住民族發展基金裡面去做撥補我想我們一再強調行政院要依法行政因為這筆錢如果你是用原住民族的綜合發展基金裡面去撥補這個就沒有合法就不合法不合規嘛"},{"start":2182.662,"end":2191.049,"text":"所以為什麼我們就是真的是不理解為什麼行政院到現在還一直堅持說要在這個基金裡面去做撥補"},{"start":2192.642,"end":2220.432,"text":"那我們一直強調你依法編列這不是難事啊你就把總預算做相關的一個預算的一個調整做追加嘛這是最簡單的一個方式就是說法律案已經通過了你如果是用基金的方式來做撥補的話那你明年呢你說你明年說你把這個錢再用撥補的方式去撥補到我們的綜合販機但明年後年呢你不做呢"},{"start":2221.482,"end":2221.762,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2239.705,"end":2255.284,"text":"所以我們堅持我們認為這樣的一個做法在不合法的一個情況之下我想我們真的很難接受那我再講一下請問一下我想這一次總預算今天我們真的是希望行政院能夠有善意的回應所以聽到今天這樣的一個結果我們真的很遺憾"},{"start":2259.708,"end":2286.122,"text":"我們也看到今天民進黨似乎對明天我們在星期二的時候有做程序委員會我們已經釋出很大的善意我們希望在明天的這個院會能夠把這件事情解決但是我們看到民進黨今天在我們的議場在排隊我們不曉得排隊是明天他們是要做什麼事情是不是要干擾議事的進行"},{"start":2287.256,"end":2309.561,"text":"如果是真的要善意的話大家一定要互相的釋出善意如果明天你們企圖霸占主席台來干擾議事的進行我們真的看不到我們的執政黨有任何的善意所以是誰在阻擋我們預算的審查我要請國人要看清楚了以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民書記長的發言我們請吳世堯幹事長請發言台灣民眾黨請準備"},{"start":2317.233,"end":2330.528,"text":"謝謝院長、謝謝各黨團的朋友今天第三次我們坐下來好好磋商總預算是不是能夠順利來交付審查這是第三次院長召集的朝野協商我想大家時間都很寶貴"},{"start":2332.29,"end":2346.929,"text":"那對於整個國家社會來講．更寶貴的是國家的進步．跟人民的福祉今天的協商我們希望聚焦在總預算交付協商審查的這一個重要議案"},{"start":2348.283,"end":2360.276,"text":"所以讓總預算能夠順利排入明天的議程這是我們最希望能夠來進行的那我優先先回答一下林思明書記長所說的民進黨團那今天在議場外去排隊"},{"start":2366.394,"end":2372.717,"text":"好那大家我也清楚在這個地方跟大家說明正因為過去發生過幾次已經程序委員會因為沒有排定院會的議程所以說明天的議程未定的狀況之下總預算能不能夠順利被排案還不要說排案之後表決能不能通過"},{"start":2388.806,"end":2388.846,"text":"民進黨黨團提議））"},{"start":2419.647,"end":2433.816,"text":"民進黨團同仁在現場開始希望能夠做這些預先的部署但是當然另外我們也比較擔憂一點就是今天看到院長除了總預算的協商還排了選罷法的協商"},{"start":2438.276,"end":2450.935,"text":"這就是昨天讓整個黨團的同仁也讓社會包括很多跑國會新聞多年的媒體大家都在問一個問題選罷法不是要先由黨團協商由"},{"start":2453.53,"end":2478.511,"text":"國民黨來召集嗎因為上一次應當也是上週針對第一次總預算協商的時候當時韓院長就已經把未經黨團協商的選罷法放到議程了所以在上週的協商經由本黨表達異議認為這樣不符程序不可以為了選罷法再一次閹割了程序正義應當由提案委員就近乎二讀的議案該黨團來主持協商"},{"start":2482.774,"end":2505.131,"text":"所以也終於獲得讓選罷法回到應當有的議事規則那就是昨天由林思敏委員於昨天下午的4點半召開選罷法的協商可是很奇怪咯協商還沒開始還沒進行昨天中午我們就收到韓院長今天又把選罷法列到今天朝野協商的議程"},{"start":2506.537,"end":2531.153,"text":"所以我們當然擔憂說那國民黨的朋友們是不是又把協商當過水非常遺憾昨天下午4點半到6點的協商就驗證了主席主持的司民委員確實就是把協商當過水了所以我希望院長我們今天就程序"},{"start":2532.423,"end":2550.555,"text":"我們就讓總預算成為今天開會的優先事由讓總預算的問題能夠被解決大家智慧的提出解方有總預算才有其他的事項的爭取如果總預算連續在明天第六檔了"},{"start":2551.983,"end":2562.931,"text":"黨的六次關乎民生的總預算沒有辦法審查進入程序卻又排上了要阻卻民權、沒收民權的選罷法那社會沒有辦法接受"},{"start":2563.919,"end":2589.228,"text":"所以我們希望今天在程序上優先進行總預算大家提出解方建設性的來談話至於選罷法我是呼籲也請求院長昨天的協商是過水希望今天韓院長的協商不應當再把它作為一個過水以利於明天強行在院會表決我想這個不是回應社會一個好的方式那回到今天總預算的這個議程裡頭呢"},{"start":2591.149,"end":2608.926,"text":"我再一次說依法行政四個字不是只要求行政部門立法部門我們也是廣義的公務團隊我們也需要依法行政國家的法只有一套從憲法到預算法到財政紀律法到"},{"start":2609.667,"end":2610.047,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2630.228,"end":2649.319,"text":"其他的議案回到各該委員會（讓各該委員會進行委員會中心主義（這些委員更專業（更了解各該政策（回到應當有的場域去做應當有的討論（而今天在院長層級的朝野協商（我們就具體針對總預算的後續（必須排時程由院長來報告（"},{"start":2655.922,"end":2678.521,"text":"而我們這一次要處理的還有四個預算案四個預算案都把報告的期程排出來然後包括審查的時程一併排出來讓立法院的意識回到正軌讓審預算的程序回到應當有的程序這是民進黨團今天的目標"},{"start":2680.983,"end":2696.096,"text":"計法補償,我是希望我第一輪,我不想再針對這個內容去做太多的著墨因為我希望主席可以發揮您的協助,讓總預算交付審查是優先"},{"start":2697.057,"end":2718.844,"text":"原名的預算回到內政委員會但如果稍後還是在黨的黨團的同仁們還是想對進法補償進一步討論那那個部分實質的意見我會再來發表但是回到一個同樣依法行政我們只有同一套法制在法治國家臺灣同樣要求行政部門也要求立法部門報告完畢"},{"start":2720.684,"end":2743.825,"text":"謝謝吳世耀幹事長的發言在臺灣民眾黨發言之前我想特別介紹今天在我們立法院外有很多民眾來立法院來陳情表達意見我們願今天開潮以前的多位原住民立委也一起來參與我特別要介紹讓大家都知道在我左手邊我們盧憲英委員我們高金素美委員鄭天才委員右手邊吳立華委員陳英委員大家都非常的關切"},{"start":2745.606,"end":2751.518,"text":"大家、全國的觀眾、全國的朋友來報告一下原住民立委今天都非常非常關心這個案子我們現在請台灣民進黨發言,請"},{"start":2756.176,"end":2783.112,"text":"當然謝謝院長先針對於我們今天協商的第一個主題其他沒有必要的話我在我的第一輪發言還是遵守我之前所講的原則我不希望整個協商的現場變成的是炮火失色的政治工坊沒有意義針對主題來進行發言就好了我一開始發言我還是希望遵守這個原則"},{"start":2784.513,"end":2788.798,"text":"等下如果有溢出這個原則範圍之外的第二輪發言再來做處理"},{"start":2790.557,"end":2814.104,"text":"剛剛聽到我們的主席長對於原住民進法補償的說明我想台灣民眾黨團的立場非常清楚台灣是一個法治國家針對原住民他們在保留地所做的特別犧牲國家依法予以補償這個是在落實憲法對於每一個人基本權利的保障"},{"start":2815.344,"end":2833.955,"text":"立法與補償是立法機關在踐行我們對於受有特別犧牲的原住民本來就應該要做的事情而且用法律來與民定也因此依照立法院三讀通過的法律"},{"start":2835.526,"end":2854.471,"text":"原住民的保留地依法可以請求給付的公法上請求權本來就是一公頃6萬元現在白紙黑字是有效生效的法律我想這一點無庸置疑第三個部分我們當初"},{"start":2856.604,"end":2883.469,"text":"在面對總預算的時候我們為什麼這麼堅持要求行政部門要把話說清楚因為我們接下來未來等到預算負為審查了以後請由我再強調一次立法委員只能夠刪減只能夠凍結不能夠增加不能夠增加在預算審查的過程當中"},{"start":2884.449,"end":2906.398,"text":"因此當我們在預算書上面看不到財源的時候我們就會非常的關心說那行政院你把錢編在哪裡你沒有編經費的這個瑕疵無論如何是不可能透過事後的預算審議來治癒這個瑕疵的那今天主計長終於說的"},{"start":2910.512,"end":2929.648,"text":"看起來比較清楚一點但我等一下有兩點困惑可能要請行政部門先表達一下他們的立場因為總是要跟大家解惑把事情說清楚、講明白剛剛我們主計長的說法是"},{"start":2930.569,"end":2954.393,"text":"明年一公頃6萬元4萬由公務預算支出那2萬由原住民族綜合發展經濟支出我剛聽起來應該是沒有誤會主計長的意思但我只有一點困惑那個困惑是說原住民族綜合發展基金可不可以拿來發進法補償"},{"start":2959.659,"end":2980.287,"text":"原住民族發展基金可不可以拿來發進法補償這個是我的困惑因為之前在討論相關議案的時候可能等一下可以請比較熟悉這個議題的原民委員再幫我們做補充說明因為我上一次在協商的時候那也非常感謝鄭天才政委員有提供"},{"start":2981.147,"end":3009.746,"text":"我們立法院在2018年的時候我們有做的一個決議那這個決議就是說原住民族綜合發展基金你把它用在禁法賭場是違法的那這個法制上面的疑義目前行政院是不是理一清了這個也有關於我們在協商的第一個課題到底是不是可以順利的能夠獲得解決"},{"start":3011.307,"end":3039.037,"text":"那還是說目前行政院的立場是說違法沒有關係我反正先發違法沒有關係我反正先發人民拿到錢最重要未來再來做調整是不是有這樣的立場恐怕要請行政院先說清楚講明白那第二個行政院明年發一公頃六萬元有沒有附帶條件"},{"start":3040.95,"end":3066.464,"text":"有沒有附帶條件因為我上次協商的時候我必須要再說一次我非常驚訝的聽到有個附帶條件說要我們同意明年要修到卓榮泰的一公頃4萬元這個條件到目前為止存在還是不存在可能也請我們的行政部門能夠先表明因為這個比較攸關於說我們等一下在討論的時候是不是"},{"start":3067.622,"end":3087.674,"text":"不管是我們原住民的朋友還是其他應該要編的預算是不是有編足那我們可以順利的交給委員會審查一個蠻重要的關鍵那其他的話我都先不說我先針對總預算的這個部門來請教一下我們的行政部門"},{"start":3089.864,"end":3110.418,"text":"那麻煩陳主席長,針對剛才三位黨團所發言的部分,您先做一下解釋好不好?先做一下說明。那接下來,我們主席長請先說明一下好嗎?原住民發展基金能不能夠"},{"start":3111.812,"end":3134.923,"text":"因為以原住民發展基金第21條裏面他有規定這個部分就是說他應該要提撥一定的比例納入原住民綜合發展基金作為回饋和補償的一個經費所以他在21條的原住民的一個基本法裏面他就規定到支出然後他18條裏面就是規定到收入他就是相關的收入作為裁員"},{"start":3136.143,"end":3160.974,"text":"這個部分以往執行的時候（也都是由公戶撥到基金去執行（所以我們每一年都是撥（像今年28億也是會有公戶（撥到基金28億（所以基金裡面今年也有編28億的支出（只是說這個如果不足的部分（我們由基金的財源先行去支應（支應的結果不足（我們在以後年度來撥補（撥補給它不足的部分（以上說明"},{"start":3165.543,"end":3182.151,"text":"那各位黨團幹部我們剛剛主席講說明就是原住民基金所播放是合法的完全合乎規定那蔡議員你稍微等一下第一輪黨團幹部都發言完今天五位原住民委員還有我們雲林縣的張家俊委員都在現場我想原住民委員一定有很多話想說那"},{"start":3183.251,"end":3203.185,"text":"容許我來掌控一下這個議程就是我們三個黨團做二輪發言之後原住民委員請準備發言原住民委員發言的時候我們先讓黨團幹部與我們草野協商先讓黨團二輪發言請原住民委員五位委員稍微準備一下好 你們等一下要發言好 請蔡義雲幹事長 謝謝請蘇紀長蘇紀長不好意思院長"},{"start":3210.851,"end":3231.262,"text":"那我想剛剛聽了三個黨團的第一輪發言那我想首先有一個重點就是說臺灣是法治國家這個法治的精神並不是只有行政要依法行政我們立法也是必須要依法"},{"start":3232.382,"end":3246.83,"text":"來立我們的法律既然預算法、財政紀律法以及相關的一些法律都有規定符合財政紀律的前提之下"},{"start":3248.936,"end":3273.489,"text":"立法才能去做相關法令的一個訂定所以事實上這就很清楚就是說我們在講的就是說我們今年度如果公務預算是用4萬元剩下的2萬元的部分讓行政機關未來去尋找裁員那剛剛討論的裁員有可能是從基金來作為補充"},{"start":3276.755,"end":3294.34,"text":"那這個是一個行政機關現階段在協商的時候也是經過院長你多次主持那我們執政黨一樣是有誠意要來解決問題我們希望總預算可以趕快赴為審查的前提之下"},{"start":3295.16,"end":3311.705,"text":"那大概也有去說如果真的今年6萬要上路的話他的裁員是怎樣那這是在協商的過程但是大家不要忘記了在於這個法定例的當下基本上一直存在著"},{"start":3312.285,"end":3341.523,"text":"因為財政紀律法第5條、第7條的規定我們這樣的立法下去有違反了財政紀律的前提之下所以我們才會希望說我們今天的協商並不是單單這講進法補償明年度的問題我們希望讓它法治化所以我們希望有一個前提就是說我們再來補足補正當時在立法的瑕疵"},{"start":3343.742,"end":3365.316,"text":"當時的立法就是因為行政機關並沒有同意到6萬他當時同意是4萬那除了同意之外當時也並沒有說明彌補這一個預算的一個裁員就是說在當時這些瑕疵都存在那既然我們大家也都有看到這些瑕疵我們不能漠視它所以我們希望"},{"start":3366.016,"end":3389.569,"text":"三個黨團可以一起來補正這樣的一個瑕疵這是第一個那第二個 院長不好意思我再說明一下如果依照原住民基本法第18條那關於原住民的土地的賠償補償及收益款相關法令規定的撥款及其他收入是可以用原住民的綜合發展基金來支付的"},{"start":3390.134,"end":3412.728,"text":"那這一個情況在105年、106年一直到112年都一直有用基金來做撥付的一個狀況那基金在撥付的狀況也不是只有在民進黨執政的時候有用基金撥付相對的在過去國民黨執政的時候還是有一樣的狀況所以並不能說過去"},{"start":3415.209,"end":3429.525,"text":"再用基金的補充．大家都說那個情況都不要去談現在這個主席長談到了用基金來做補充那大家都說這個是不合法的我想這個相對是我們比較不能接受的好 謝謝好 謝謝采宇現在接下來請國民黨團二人發言"},{"start":3437.442,"end":3452.322,"text":"主席、各政黨代表、原住民立委們主席、各政黨代表、原住民立委們現在看起來行政院仍然不採取"},{"start":3454.81,"end":3455.531,"text":"一、重編預算．一、重編預算．一、重編預算．一、重編預算．"},{"start":3471.112,"end":3490.14,"text":"採用綜合發展基金到底有沒有違法的問題到底有沒有排擠我們原民在其他的包含他們的貸款包含他們的住宅修繕補助等等之類都是在綜合發展基金支應而一直在用綜合發展基金支應已經使得原來的百億的一個資產的淨值現在都變成負的"},{"start":3496.203,"end":3496.503,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3517.814,"end":3542.309,"text":"但是我們現在所面臨的就是我們現在的原民計法補償條例它就是法律啊所以我覺得非常奇怪第一個難道我們今天可以完全否定我們立法院所通過總統公告實施的這個不叫做法律嗎難道所謂法律的定義是由行政院說了算或者民進黨團說了算嗎"},{"start":3545.311,"end":3562.796,"text":"所以我們在這邊以國民黨團還是希望以循正常的預算程序正常預算程序就是你今年可以重編預算我們今年的新增的稅出高達2800億而這2800億的這個稅出裡面很多根本不是法定預算支出比如說最近還有提到我們編了好幾百億的"},{"start":3575.18,"end":3575.46,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3594.429,"end":3596.95,"text":"調整、讓法定預算（能夠得到充分的依法編列（無論如何是說不過去的第二點,剛才我也聽到主計長（談到有關健保點值的部分（我不再贅述（他剛才講說有益住多少、健保總額多少等等（"},{"start":3623.237,"end":3637.352,"text":"但是在上個會期我們在朝野協商的時候行政部門也在場當時的行政部門因為當時是希望能夠提高到一塊錢"},{"start":3638.573,"end":3640.034,"text":"那麼行政部門覺得這一塊錢會造成支出是沒有辦法支應所以在經過協商的時候這個主決議不只是朝野政黨的簽字還有行政部門的認可啊他們也認可說在這樣的一個0.95是行政部門可以接受的"},{"start":3666.169,"end":3668.13,"text":"因為當時就是把健保點值提高到一那其他部門說這個金額太大他們難以支應等等所以當時也是協商的你不能說現在又完全不認帳了吧對不對另外公糧收購也是如此"},{"start":3683.835,"end":3693.948,"text":"所以我想今天其實今天天氣非常不好但是呢在外面我們也看到有來自於就是我們的原民朋友、農民朋友還有我們的醫護人員的朋友大家都很關心我們這一場的這個朝野協商"},{"start":3703.98,"end":3718.929,"text":"實際上以在野黨來講我們真的有充分的善意所以剛才我們的書記長也特別提到在星期二的程序委員會上我們留待星期五可以在座討論那如果說今天"},{"start":3724.733,"end":3726.714,"text":"再也黨是為反對而反對故意不審預算的話那真的在星期二就直接退回就算了但是呢我們考慮到星期四我們還有一場朝野協商而且呢我們也願意給行政院有更多的時間來去解決這個問題"},{"start":3744.98,"end":3750.967,"text":"所以必須要強調然後至於呢剛才有特別提到今天早上我們也看到民進黨的這個委員們也很辛苦我說今天呢天氣不好啊那麼大家早早的呢就守在了議場的門口"},{"start":3760.678,"end":3764.26,"text":"那我也不知道守在議場門口﹖到底他的意思是什麼﹖是要去大戰主席臺嗎﹖是要干擾這個明天的議事的進行嗎﹖可是顯然剛才我也聽到我們的吳思瑤幹事長說﹖其實是要確保我們的這個相關的議事能夠進行﹖"},{"start":3783.812,"end":3785.694,"text":"那我也很納悶啦因為事實上我們同樣的就是在院會的時候那麼我們一成不確定然後我們在座討論也許會進入表決但是呢以10月4號10月18號"},{"start":3801.189,"end":3801.509,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3817.64,"end":3821.443,"text":"十月十八號其實我們都很順利的來進行討論然後我們出席的委員也都能夠充分的表達意見所以我不曉得明天會跟這幾天有什麼不一樣所以要特別提出來的我們其實還是會非常的希望就是把"},{"start":3843.679,"end":3854.49,"text":"該編的法定預算．還有相關主決議．也就是行政部門答應立法院．答應朝野立委該做的事情．能夠趕快的．能夠把它．能夠．"},{"start":3858.694,"end":3867.299,"text":"應該有一個合理而且讓我們能夠接受的一個處理的方式那麼我們當然也樂見這個預算趕快來審查我們也樂見我們的院長可以來報告但是這個前提一定是行政院必須要有誠意解決以上謝謝謝謝王宏威首席副市長的發言台灣民進黨請二人發言哪一位請"},{"start":3891.718,"end":3907.769,"text":"請二人發言,請謝謝院長,剛剛其實我提了兩個問題,第二個問題主席早沒有回那沒有回我就當怕是不存在所以現在已經沒有要在野黨配合他們明年修法,修回每公頃4萬元的問題"},{"start":3911.21,"end":3912.871,"text":"在立法院三讀通過法律案以後"},{"start":3938.547,"end":3951.493,"text":"原住民針對他們的保留地每公頃6萬元這個是三毒生肖的法律國家依法本來就應該要給付這沒有什麼好說的"},{"start":3952.916,"end":3978.522,"text":"這才是法治國原則這樣的給付如果把它奠基在要求在野黨配合明年把它修回去每公頃4萬元的話我們不會接受我們無法接受如果依法行政發給我們原住民朋友保留地每公頃6萬元是用明年"},{"start":3979.932,"end":4006.745,"text":"要我們答應修法修回去每公頃4萬元的話我們不會接受我們也無法接受用犧牲用踐踏原住民族朋友的權益來當作代價我們萬萬沒有辦法同意這個是第一點立場要很清楚表明的第二點剛剛主計長說說這樣子的編列是合法的那我就"},{"start":4007.959,"end":4030.831,"text":"覺得有點困惑因為除了在2017年除了在2017年鄭天橋委員上一次在協商的時候有提出來的一個主決議說以後不可以再這樣做那事實是他們每一次都同意從2017年以外2018年"},{"start":4035.06,"end":4051.89,"text":"2018年那個時候1月22號禮拜一一樣是在總預算的協商2018年1月22號當初的行政院院長是賴清德參與協商的是行政院的秘書長卓龍炭當時的秘書長那個時候第六案的主決議也說了進法補償經預算"},{"start":4063.766,"end":4087.708,"text":"要不然就要編列在行政院（要不然就由行政院撥交（原住民族友人會以公務預算（來加以編列那過去（由原住民族發展基金所代電的進法補償（在次一個年度要撥還那我就覺得很困惑所以現在（因為剛剛主計長所講的法規的狀態跟我（"},{"start":4092.29,"end":4117.245,"text":"所賴讀到的過去所做的一些事情情況都不太一樣所以我剛剛所提的那個問題的第一點的困惑我還是存在那可能我在這個事務的理解上跟認知上比不上我們原住民的委員今天有很多原住民的委員也都有參與我想說那個原住民族發展基金其實"},{"start":4118.326,"end":4128.507,"text":"是最攸關原住民朋友他們的權益等一下我們也抱持一個開放的心胸聽聽看我們原住民委員大家所採取的看法是什麼以上"},{"start":4130.535,"end":4151.201,"text":"謝謝黃國昌臺灣民眾黨二輪發言剛才蔡蘇緝長您說你要對場外民眾講話是什麼意思就是說議場我們現在有在排隊各位黨團蔡蘇緝長她的意思是針對明天的排隊針對這一部分跟大家來報告一下我剛剛沒有講因為你剛剛有問嘛剛剛有問啊"},{"start":4159.793,"end":4171.258,"text":"我只有一句話啦我只有一句話啦我上個禮拜我上個禮拜跟洪森先生一起排了我們三點就排了我們就先地案要不是我政黨協助你們當時候無意義我們總預算就可以復為了"},{"start":4177.201,"end":4191.206,"text":"各位黨團幹部希望...院長不好意思容我打斷我請院長跟大家說明一次清楚說明規則是三個黨團輪流院長有點到名才可以發言還是大家隨便拿麥克風就可以發言"},{"start":4193.944,"end":4194.205,"text":"主席院長"},{"start":4214.481,"end":4242.13,"text":"現在又來了一位林倩琦原住民委員也來關心感謝你請坐現在等一下原住民委員因為今天有大概有將近六位原住民委員都在現場七位因為我們黨團幹部的開會的時間的關係我有幾點要特別拜託各位今天在座的原住民委員我知道你們都很關心第一個請控制時間第二個重複性的也就拜託大家也就不用再第三就是"},{"start":4243.71,"end":4243.89,"text":"請高經緯發言"},{"start":4272.915,"end":4299.877,"text":"再次謝謝韓院長這是我第三次參加草友協商我要跟場外的我的族人、家人們說聲你們辛苦了你們正在淋雨我們在這裡在捍衛我們的尊嚴剛剛黃國昌委員提到的那個主決議其實就是我提的所以我非常的清楚知道當時的主決議就已經說了我們的行政院進法補償必須要從公務預算裡面來編"},{"start":4303.399,"end":4324.912,"text":"當時的蘇主席他說沒問題蘇院長說這個做主決議這個曾經有過的公文就在國昌老師的手上好我要再講的就是說在原住民部位一直有人講進法補償一定領得到6萬塊我一直很納悶主任也在問我"},{"start":4326.095,"end":4327.416,"text":"所以我們真的拿到6萬塊嗎?我們今天不就是為了行政院少編2萬塊在這裡協商嗎?是不是院長?對吧?"},{"start":4336.536,"end":4356.78,"text":"而我今天也很認真（我把兩本公務預算（一本公務預算（一本綜合發展基金（來給大家看（來給大家說明（各位委員回去的時候（可以翻一下（我先來講（人民單位預算的81頁稅出計畫（我們不久有看到計畫補償（是編了28.161億"},{"start":4361.564,"end":4376.408,"text":"因此我們來看一下綜合發展基金的12頁就是這本比較黃一點的這本12頁的確在業務收入裡面也有看到其他業務他寫其他業務的收入是28.161億"},{"start":4379.809,"end":4385.912,"text":"這個部分就是由原民單位的28.161億到綜合發展基金要去進法補償的"},{"start":4394.995,"end":4403.903,"text":"但是呢我又翻到中和發展基金的34頁114年度的金額數辦理進法補償的費用它上面只有寫27.87億奇怪了27.87億跟28.161億為什麼會少呢到底在哪裡呢我一直在找好終於在61頁"},{"start":4420.899,"end":4424.561,"text":"六十一頁的一般服務上下的第九上面寫要辦理禁法的後台維運管理也就是我們劃禁法補償要有一些機制讓後台管理的維運費2910萬"},{"start":4442.668,"end":4449.098,"text":"大家都清楚知道數字加起來就是27.87億加上2910萬等於公務預算裡面的28.161億"},{"start":4457.659,"end":4477.481,"text":"我覺得主計長你不要說謊有些人也不要說謊都說基金跟購物預算一起編列可以拿到六萬塊報告大家兩本預算書在這裡回去好好的用功看一下那繼續呢我要問一下"},{"start":4478.462,"end":4498.82,"text":"中和發展基金（剛剛主計長有講（希望在中和發展基金（不足的那2萬塊（要在中和發展基金裡面（我們看得到（如果不足的2萬塊（按照我們現在7萬多公企（應該要多少（2、7、14 對不對在中和發展基金裡面（也沒有看到14億（"},{"start":4501.351,"end":4512.835,"text":"所以整個如果按照他們的邏輯這個園民會的單位預算編28.161億的話在綜合發展基金應該要看到14億沒有看到所以我要講的就是剛剛主計長說要在蒸發基金裡面"},{"start":4524.028,"end":4528.891,"text":"真的是違法他講什麼他說基本法第21條他引用21條他說盈利所得是可以放在基金裡面的我沒有意見但是禁法補償不是盈利所得啊院長他是我們的政府侵害人民的權利這叫做特別犧牲"},{"start":4552.125,"end":4554.566,"text":"特別犧牲就必須要政府編列預算補償因此我們才會同意我們兩位原住民立法委員一個是吳麗華 一個是陳穎雖然陳穎是後來才簽的 同意的"},{"start":4571.192,"end":4577.361,"text":"我們就按照他們兩個人提的六萬我是召委我就讓他通過了啊那通過了這個過程我們就不要講了那個不提副議案、總統公告都不提了那我要講的是"},{"start":4586.107,"end":4603.981,"text":"中核發展基金的預算法第4條第一項（第二款第4目我一直在講凡付出去要收回我們的主計長我在質詢他的時候他說在我們的中核發展基金裡面還有淨值30億如果大家都知道淨值30億的話"},{"start":4609.895,"end":4610.376,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4628.997,"end":4641.812,"text":"行政院主計總署（給原民會的函（因為在111年9月12號的時候（原民會真的受不了了（他行文給行政院的主計總署（他說"},{"start":4644.955,"end":4650.78,"text":"請撥足原住民族綜合發展基金歷年辦理經法補償至累計虧損28.32億這是111年已經虧損了38.32億今年虧損了按照他的中發基金裡面應該是虧損了22億吧然後我們看然後主計總署告訴他說什麼"},{"start":4670.157,"end":4677.821,"text":"原民基金淨值62.1億元．111年淨值62.1億元．現在114年中發基金告訴我們淨值只有30億元．所以裡面歷年來都從這邊出去的．而目前淨值我剛剛說是貸款出去．還沒有收回的"},{"start":4693.129,"end":4700.171,"text":"然後我們的主計處又說（113年度起由公務預算支應進法補償經費一截（很顯然人民會也請求主計處（用公務預算來編進法補償（考量進法補償經費逐年增加（為了維持人民基金規模的穩定（相關經費將是基金財務狀況（"},{"start":4718.977,"end":4722.559,"text":"事實協處111年的時候已經沒有撥足了剛剛主席長說現在還要用基金請問一下你們什麼時候要撥足這是剛剛我想問的問題第二個問題不是主席長講的是蔡易瑜書記長跟吳思堯幹事長提的他們要提剛剛國參院總召說的他們要提"},{"start":4746.773,"end":4773.058,"text":"下修禁法補償到4萬塊我想問今天難得出席的兩位民進黨的吳麗華跟陳穎同不同意下修4萬塊好嗎我今天很高興看到他們兩位來了不然都是我跟鄭天才兩個人在發言謝謝謝謝高金、宋美委員發言接下來我們吳麗華委員之後有哪一位原住民的委員要發言請舉手沒有"},{"start":4777.087,"end":4799.156,"text":"鄭天才委員請舉手鄭天才委員要發言我們現在請伍麗華委員發言請鄭天才委員請準備請謝謝院長主席今天很高興我一直都想參與協商但是呢因為是邀請幹部所以今天特別開放關心的原民李蔚來我要在這邊特別要感謝"},{"start":4800.876,"end":4816.404,"text":"關於這個禁法補償其實我個人一直以來我有我自己的認知為什麼我的認知那麼樣的肯定第一我要先跟大家報告我早在7月初"},{"start":4817.364,"end":4830.153,"text":"就已經聽到我們的地方政府（地方公所（跟我表達說明年度的進法補償的一個預算編列真的是6萬"},{"start":4831.977,"end":4848.71,"text":"在7月初就已經聽到地方政府跟鄉公所跟我這樣說所以我特別把那一份公文請他們交給我果然7月5號 人民會正式的行文發函給各縣市政府"},{"start":4849.511,"end":4871.682,"text":"告訴他們說114年度的各項的科目（計畫的編列（請他們按照那樣去戰估列數（所以我一定要先續名在先（所以對地方政府跟公所而言（其實並沒有這樣的困擾（是後來我們立法院產生這樣的問題（他們反而開始困擾（第二,我要說明（"},{"start":4876.704,"end":4897.38,"text":"作為一個原住民族事務的最高行政主管機關（他可以在7月初（就是按照年度計行的形式律（要趕快把這樣的一個計畫編列（因為不僅僅是禁法補償（明年我們有非常多的科目預算（都等著地方政府要暫顧編列（"},{"start":4899.662,"end":4910.054,"text":"那他為什麼會這樣做（當然就是有依據（他依據什麼呢（因為過去他看到（在105年開始發放進法補償金的時候（主計總處有發文給原民會（"},{"start":4918.163,"end":4941.615,"text":"告訴他們說這個禁法補償的發放是用公務預算及基金各辦編列如果有不足再予以協處這個是因為他們從105年接到這個公文都一直這麼做好那第三我要說明大家在爭執的到底基金"},{"start":4942.555,"end":4952.078,"text":"能不能來支應我們的進法補償金（我相信主計總署能夠在105年（發文給原民會這麼說（當然也必須有憑有據（所以它依據的是什麼呢（是民國96年（當時把我們的進法補償的一個依據（就是土地限制要補償的時候（在那個地方放入到（"},{"start":4970.743,"end":4988.456,"text":"基金的管用辦法的第4條的本基金之來源如下上面寫著說原住民族土地賠償、補償、收益款、土地資源開發盈利所得及相關法律規定之提撥款這個過去"},{"start":4991.992,"end":5001.257,"text":"上一次修訂是在民國93年但是他是在民國96年的11月30日修訂進來的當時還沒有進法補償金的發放但是已經有這樣的遠見規劃那我也要特別說明當時的事務副主任委員是在場的鄭天才委員也許他等一下可以說明那重上我就要來講"},{"start":5022.735,"end":5043.545,"text":"剛才高金委員很高興您提到我跟您報告其實我進來立法院第二年110年的12月我也是聽到圓明會的官員跟我說吳委員請你去幫忙爭取一定要把進法補償金要求全數編載公務預算"},{"start":5045.626,"end":5072.974,"text":"我當時也聽信了我也覺得很有道理所以呢我兩度質詢主計長朱澤民結果質詢完之後我回去研究整個基金到底是什麼東西我就不堅持了為什麼因為我以為基金真的會發完我也聽信這樣的話後來我發現大家斟酌在看不懂什麼叫基金"},{"start":5074.181,"end":5090.162,"text":"基金短處是指當年度的支出跟收入加減所得是當年度我舉個例子我們的人民綜合發展基金向來都是大部分拿去放去做貸款"},{"start":5091.499,"end":5110.858,"text":"如果我放出去50億的貸款但是我只有收回10萬的利息10萬的其他的收入包括溫泉收入等等我是短促了40億但是我不能說我負債40億但是我也看了預算書第33頁"},{"start":5113.171,"end":5124.001,"text":"我們的基金是要看淨值的很明顯的寫著我們113年12月底我們的基金淨值還有68億多我也查了從民國95年歷年主計總數一直撥進來人民基金的累計已經高達199億多"},{"start":5137.048,"end":5155.377,"text":"所以大家都應該很清楚資金是發放得出來的所以我們的園民會也願意也敢也覺得理所當然在7月5號發出這樣的公文所以時至今日我不太曉得說我在這裡我到底要說什麼我不知道我要說什麼"},{"start":5159.212,"end":5172.61,"text":"但是我願意如果大家能夠聽到我講的這番話我希望在外面很辛苦前來承擴的族人真的希望你們聽到我的話因為這幾個月我很難過"},{"start":5174.933,"end":5190.781,"text":"大家為著這件事情到底有沒有分爭、對立、人心惶惶甚至造成原住民族群跟全國的人民的一個這樣的一個嫌隙我於心不忍因為我不知道所為何來"},{"start":5191.921,"end":5209.508,"text":"對我來講莫名其妙可是如果避免未來再去做這樣的一個糾紛大家今天是協商坐下來談我覺得剛才黃國昌委員他講的每一句話我都覺得很有道理因為我們就坐在這邊就基金到底可不可以拿來發"},{"start":5211.891,"end":5228.816,"text":"只要能發以後怎麼做有沒有附帶條件我是認為說只要未來不要再為這個假議題爭吵我覺得今天坐在這邊我們很願意來聽聽看怎麼做才好讓未來就不要再吵了謝謝"},{"start":5234.608,"end":5252.645,"text":"下面還有哪位原住民委員要發言?請舉手。好,盧憲憶委員請準備。好,院長、各黨團、還有我們的行政部門。這個依法行政。天台兄,你可不可以稍微大聲一點。好,依法行政。你可以換一個麥克風。"},{"start":5263.692,"end":5287.306,"text":"拿兩支麥克風沒關係拿兩支麥克風沒關係沒關係依法行政是最基本的我們要想到對原住民族而言只有15億的不足我們今年要開這麼多次的協商成為原住民族最卑微的懇求這個是我已經上次我也講過原住民因為這樣的一個議題"},{"start":5294.181,"end":5314.974,"text":"造成分裂我非常非常的難過行政院既然沒有依憲法提出復議就表示沒有自愛難行就應該要依法編列預算"},{"start":5316.772,"end":5342.242,"text":"但是就是少編了15億的經費所以希望趕快今天能夠完成有關韓院長在主持進法補償條例的時候我要再重申上次我也提過行政部門包括當時的行政院副主計長"},{"start":5343.615,"end":5367.484,"text":"包括嚴明會的主任委員都沒有提到4萬塊都沒有提到4萬塊議事錄都有 會議記錄都有所以後來就表決既然通過了 也沒有赴議就應該要依法行政我們一直糾結在這個原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":5369.025,"end":5397.343,"text":"原住民主基本法第18條規定的很清楚前段它是用途用途就是作為發展經濟之用也就是要辦理經濟事業貸款維新貸款創業貸款而且預算法第4條這個不是我寫的是行政院送來的預算書"},{"start":5399.057,"end":5426.119,"text":"預算法明定預算書寫得很清楚本基金系一預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目第四目凡付出仍可收回很清楚這個就是什麼呢就像貸款付出去"},{"start":5427.113,"end":5448.964,"text":"本金可以收回來（利息可以收回來（淨法補償是不可以的（收不回來的主計長一直在引用研究法第18條的後段是講基金的來源基金的來源如果我們回到"},{"start":5449.966,"end":5468.711,"text":"基金管理應用辦法．基金的來源．第一款循政府預算的收入．撥入進去．就是公務預算．撥到基金可以．原住民族土地的賠償．補償．我查過．都沒有了．"},{"start":5475.911,"end":5502.877,"text":"例如今年度的21億公務預算的撥入那是管理辦法的第一款是公務預算的撥入不是補償的收入不是補償款這個非常的明確也就是因為有這樣的一個規定所以才會有在第九屆"},{"start":5504.768,"end":5529.799,"text":"立法院通過了預算案的主決議預算案的主決議就是措施性的法例這個第九屆大家都很清楚民進黨是絕對多數預算案的主決議那時候大家都無意義通過"},{"start":5531.715,"end":5554.646,"text":"這個決議就是寫得很清楚就是說過去從106年開始動資原住民族綜合發展基金撥付到禁法補償是違反延期法違反預算法應該要返還這個是第九屆"},{"start":5556.345,"end":5585.047,"text":"第二會期的一個第二會期第17次會議的一個結議好 接下來我們 剛才我們吳立華特別提到113 他一直常引用這個文113年7月 延民會的公文我跟他報告這個是所有各部會要補助給地方政府的"},{"start":5586.417,"end":5613.188,"text":"每一年都在六、七月的時候就要發文請各地方政府亦為編列明年我要補助給你的錢那時候很清楚以今年來講113年7月行政院的預算案行政院會都還沒有通過"},{"start":5615.451,"end":5640.997,"text":"八月三十一號以前送來（八月中旬之後才行政院院會通過這是長年及一百多年的慣例這是第一個第二請吳委員看清楚我本來不想講了既然你說了我還是說你請你看清楚這個金額是多少呢"},{"start":5643.325,"end":5654.013,"text":"看公文看清楚你有寫啊113年7月顏明慧的公文你寫得很大進法補償多少錢呢19億8144萬5544元啊"},{"start":5665.502,"end":5686.814,"text":"19億怎麼能計（我發錯誤的資訊（那是屏東縣的分配額（不是全國（不是 全部的那是屏東縣的提醒一下 發言的時候徵詢一下主席同意 謝謝這是全部的天才兄你稍微再大聲一點你現在搞得變懸疑片了再大聲一點這個是全部的怎麼可能屏東就19億呢"},{"start":5688.482,"end":5705.923,"text":"怎麼可能屏東就19億呢 對不對這是全部的我也有那張公文這是接下來我再次讓因為他們都比較不知道我是老公演"},{"start":5709.298,"end":5738.266,"text":"科建民總召第一次協商的時候（我也很高興他知道（他竟然知道我很感佩（我那天也說謝謝他民國82年（臺灣省政府我在服務的時候（就以要點（來訂定禁法補償（那時候一公頃就是兩萬塊（現在已經三十幾年了（"},{"start":5739.631,"end":5767.899,"text":"所以我們現在已經訂了條例好105年確實沒有錯馬英九執政的時候的最後一年104年的8月31號送來的預算書有包含公務預算跟基金這是事實"},{"start":5769.727,"end":5796.946,"text":"所以我當時感謝毛治國院長法例還沒通過進場補償條例是114年12月底通過的但是8月114年8月31號就先編了預算所以我質詢的時候我就感謝他但是我特別跟毛治國院長說用基金是不可以的"},{"start":5798.001,"end":5821.635,"text":"我把你姑且證為代為店婦（還是要返還（一、四路全部都在（一、四路都在（而當年105年（並沒有動用到（雖然變了基金（沒有動用到基金（全數都是公務預算（從106年開始（"},{"start":5825.697,"end":5847.329,"text":"就開始動用到基金（所以才會有第九屆的立法院的主決議（所以這個部分是一個很重要的一個爭點另外就是說（剛才吳立華委員也提了（他有質詢（確實有質詢（他跟我一樣（我也不斷的質詢（"},{"start":5852.262,"end":5880.822,"text":"不可以再用綜合發展基金所以今年113年度的21億全部都是公預算沒有編列原住民組綜合發展基金這個預算書都很清楚所以本席要特別特別的來拜託我們行政院能夠尤其是主計長"},{"start":5882.623,"end":5903.619,"text":"我們就15億而已我們可以用第二一倍金也可以修正預算我也講過民國100年12月5號行政院、伊利法院100年12月2號的結議當時吳敦利院長"},{"start":5908.479,"end":5934.371,"text":"一、立法院一百年十二月二號的結議（三天之內一百年十二月五號（就修正了一百零一年度的預算（修正增加多少呢一百六十幾億啊我們只不過是十五億所以這個部分其實是非常容易解決的"},{"start":5936.095,"end":5950.205,"text":"還要弄到法院長要三次的協商所以這個部分我特別特別再次的懇求行政院要依法行政以上 謝謝"},{"start":5957.22,"end":5976.31,"text":"我不是要舉手插話我只是有一個跟院長的請求因為我們剛剛講建議就是說因為院長很辛苦那大家如果有一些概念沒有釐清我們繼續講還是會開花所以我想請求院長可以才是在盧委員發言之前或"},{"start":5976.77,"end":6004.594,"text":"之後可以就剛剛很多委員提到的淨值啦、貸款啦這些請主席還有那個凡經付出人客收工等一下主席長會再一次做說明但我是建議說是不是可以先行說明在我發言之前先說明因為不然我覺得這個概念不清楚再繼續講大家都沒有焦急這是我替院長著想的建議希望你不要那麼辛苦謝謝"},{"start":6005.234,"end":6031.986,"text":"我們先謝謝剛才老公務員我們鄭天才的發言我的想法是幫大家想因為各位原住民委員都非常關切這個案子所以我的想法也是幫你們想讓你們先一輪發言之後我要就請主席長說明主席長說明之後三個黨團幹部一定會有其他的意見補強我想這樣子的話關於原住民委員大家都非常關切就有一個可以把自己的想法講出來的機會這是我幫大家想的陳議員這樣您能瞭解我的想法嗎"},{"start":6035.358,"end":6036.819,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6057.814,"end":6083.961,"text":"大家都很聰明大家也都知道大家也都是識字6月24號公告到現在已經4個月了大家擔心的就是沒有依法編列這個事實然後呢我們行政院長他又常常會說惡例不可開那我們原住民要怎麼相信你們有誠意然後民進黨常常說我們是正式人權正式公平正義站在原住民這一邊可是"},{"start":6085.615,"end":6107.309,"text":"我們會覺得很可笑所以我們只要知道說我們15億要不要編組而已就這麼簡單的問題然後我們一直要講那個零命基礎到現在我們聯合國的一個對原住民主的看法甚至我們憲法的原則你們一直說什麼財政紀律法、預算法"},{"start":6108.482,"end":6135.468,"text":"文憲的問題可是憲法正修條文第10條的第12項不是也是保障民員住民嗎所以憲法跟憲法比較的時候是哪一個比較優先所以不是只有你們有憲法我們也是憲法保障的所以你們每次都說財政紀律法預算法可是這個跟那個有關係嗎所以希望你拿點良心然後一直說惡力不可開哪裡來的惡力6萬塊只是基本的綠色存底而已"},{"start":6136.488,"end":6138.329,"text":"含附屬單位預算案．含附屬單位預算案．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6164.042,"end":6173.123,"text":"不是 等到公糧收購再請你發言好不好張大靚委員一定是為這個事情很關心我們現在請陳議員發言之前請主席長能不能再說明一下好 謝謝請"},{"start":6176.665,"end":6197.715,"text":"其實我們剛剛談到原住民基本法裡面是第18條它有一個基金的一個來源那一個來源就是公庫的一個撥入款那這公庫的撥入款其實我們整個支出的執行是在基金執行那基金執行它其實基金有一個作用就是說你如果被虐不足它可以超支並決算"},{"start":6198.915,"end":6221.79,"text":"策劃這併決算的部分跟公僱之間的一個算法就是說我本來公僱應該撥你30億但是你現在你超過了30而已將來這個部分我再下一年度來做撥補所以它會有一個收入的來源它也有一個支出所以它支出經理我們本來就是說建議因為你要看這個基金它有沒有剩餘款"},{"start":6223.09,"end":6251.302,"text":"現在到今年為止還有30億的剩餘款如果這個基金我超支我本來現在是4萬的額度超過它到6萬的額度我用併支出來處理支出並決算處理之後這個將來不夠的款項我在115年我編列預算國庫來撥補回來也是它的一個財源所以它也是一個支出一個收入有在收回所以我要這樣說明以上一個補充"},{"start":6252.182,"end":6262.835,"text":"好,謝謝陳主委長補充說明那陳議員發言完畢還沒其他委員要發言林倩琪委員要發言那黨團幹部請稍微等一下我們先讓原住民委員盡量一輪的表達意見請陳議員發言,林倩琪委員請準備"},{"start":6265.748,"end":6286.686,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我想我要在這裡首先我要先重申我的立場因為我是提案人我主張進法補償要6萬元好 那我想剛剛盧縣議委員有提到說我們原住民很關心怎麼編列但我想他們會更關心到他們手上的是不是每公頃6萬元"},{"start":6288.347,"end":6310.313,"text":"至於怎麼編列,我想這個功課似乎在立法院大家比較關心也比較清楚整個預算的編列方式那剛剛前面也有委員有提到就是說有什麼附帶的下修4萬元這件事"},{"start":6311.013,"end":6331.023,"text":"不好意思我是沒有聽說過我剛剛問了吳立華委員他也沒聽說過那我又問了黨團幹部這個應該是有點片面的這個擷取那如果說就是未來要修公務預算要修他也有可能是往上修啊"},{"start":6332.643,"end":6347.709,"text":"調整是可能往上調也可能往下調但是大家不要自己嚇自己或者我們又去嚇很多的原住民說傳來傳去變成下修四萬塊這件事情我想在這邊先呈現這個但是"},{"start":6348.729,"end":6360.743,"text":"我就是堅持我們這次修法我提案就是六萬元那未來你說如果真要下修我也不會同意啦那這是我的立場那再來"},{"start":6363.055,"end":6363.835,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6389.821,"end":6394.724,"text":"有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":6414.893,"end":6439.513,"text":"建議把基金規定改為總額不得低於100億元（而且要比照離島建設基金及花東基金這樣的提案（如果這樣的提案通過（才有可能導致基金破產（因為差別在於離島建設基金的規模（"},{"start":6443.736,"end":6470.628,"text":"法律規定定在300億它是固定的然後分10年撥補所以撥完用完之後政府就不會再挹注基金除非大家再來修法那花東基金它也一樣規模是400億也是固定的分10年撥補那也是撥補完之後政府就不會再挹注基金你如果還要再要我們又要再重來一次又要再修法所以"},{"start":6472.469,"end":6497.203,"text":"這個假如我們今天縱合發展原住民的縱合發展基金按照主計長再三的解釋他就是會一直的撥補那如果今天我們這個提案按照這樣的修法比照這個離島建設基金跟花東基金這個總額固定之後那撥補完用完就沒有了"},{"start":6499.003,"end":6526.957,"text":"所以用這樣的方式那我們的綜合發展基金才有可能破產所以這個部分我就在這裡提出補充說明那麼另外我要在這邊也就是跟各位提出一個請求跟建議就是說其實這一次的修法有"},{"start":6527.777,"end":6527.857,"text":"民進黨團提議．"},{"start":6543.144,"end":6549.888,"text":"二、研商有關公務預算案．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．"},{"start":6569.878,"end":6570.919,"text":"國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6586.187,"end":6609.573,"text":"最後變成好像一個政治議題在操作我覺得這個是我非常不樂見的事情所以今天藉著這個協商那我也跟外面的族人說一聲大家辛苦了那注意保暖那麼我覺得其實今天根本大家不用擔心這樣一輪聽完其實大家就是明年就是會領到6萬塊錢的這個禁法補償"},{"start":6613.854,"end":6616.015,"text":"含附屬單位預算案．一、繼續研商有關"},{"start":6635.047,"end":6644.358,"text":"來編列的話那我想大家可以更快速的然後總預算通過然後我們大家可以領到禁法補償以上謝謝好謝謝陳議員接著林建琦委員請發言"},{"start":6650.902,"end":6669.214,"text":"謝謝主席 各位立委同仁大家好剛才我們在幾人的發言我們也聽到這個事情來龍去脈的一個交代那我想細節的這個部分大家應該都蠻清楚那各自依據大家所認為的法條來解釋這件事"},{"start":6670.735,"end":6699.561,"text":"但是在發言當中我聽到幾位原住民委員包括我自己心裡是非常的傷痛我覺得我們原住民在這件事情上感覺很卑微的在這樣一個體制下好像感覺我不想講出那個字但是我用這個盧委員曾經在一次質詢裡面講我們原住民沒有Kick價這個概念好不好"},{"start":6701.636,"end":6718.422,"text":"他剛才也提到幾件事情我講比較清楚一點那兩位民進黨原住民的委員我想我們都為原住民的事務在努力在推動但是我不希望因為政黨"},{"start":6719.741,"end":6736.494,"text":"而讓我們裂解這是我最主要的一個觀點所以我也不希望我們在這樣一個體制下感覺非常的卑微那剛才大家都交代過了所以我現在指在今天的協商我們很務實的在這個體制跟這樣一個方式上我來"},{"start":6740.92,"end":6768.037,"text":"討論幾個問題第一個是我們感謝吳立華委員在地方上有確定這個中央發了函把這個戰估列數讓族人知道說可以領到這樣子的錢但是呢我們今天在這邊不就是在確定族人還有我們的人民能夠把應領到的錢在一個法治的流程當中領得很驕傲嗎"},{"start":6769.997,"end":6797.365,"text":"我們是配合國家政策我們配合國家政策犧牲自己的權益我們有需要這麼卑微的來拿到這個錢嗎我們有需要這麼懼怕的不知道這個錢會不會盧數給我們嗎這不是我們現在在這邊做的事情嗎那我們要做的就是我們必須在這個體制裡面把每一件事情確認清楚嘛"},{"start":6798.762,"end":6808.588,"text":"這一次我們發現的是公務預算裡面我們看不到跟它等同的錢被編在裡面這不就是我們在看預算的時候發現的問題嗎在這個過程當中我還發現一件"},{"start":6814.571,"end":6832.857,"text":"令我更訝異的是就是大家一直在討論基金那我想呼應盧委員我們不用在這邊上這些課那剛才大家已經都交代得很清楚如果繼續想上這個課那就來看立法院的這個片子那我想要問一個重點就是其實我以前在新北市"},{"start":6834.045,"end":6858.826,"text":"跟中央曾經推動過原住民的事務當時的基金大概也有將近快100億那我很訝異從禁法補償我們發現了這個公立預算沒有編足的過程當中竟然用的是基金而且離我當時的印象到現在竟然已經是負的好那剛才這個也很感謝陳英偉人讓主席長先把事情交代清楚"},{"start":6861.482,"end":6862.382,"text":"請問我們今天在這邊協商什麼"},{"start":6884.748,"end":6903.558,"text":"請問你在協商什麼?錢在哪裡啦?確定嗎?那這是第一個齁那第二個齁因為剛才主席長一直說國庫會撥補這個叫會撥補啊可是現在是多少錢?短處多少錢?那剛才每位委員其實都交代得非常清楚"},{"start":6905.43,"end":6916.966,"text":"政委員其實講得非常清楚所以那主計長你要不要告訴我們國報怎麼撥補今年怎麼處理未來怎麼處理那你前面那幾年是怎麼處理的"},{"start":6918.116,"end":6936.877,"text":"為什麽我們所知道的基金的總額一直到現在竟然是短促了你們要用什麽名詞都沒有關係就是族人聽得懂的大家聽得懂的所以重點是您剛才說國庫要撥補你們都一直說這個沒有問題可是我一直沒有聽出來你到底要怎麽做"},{"start":6937.993,"end":6958.605,"text":"剛才高金委員其實交代得非常清楚他在公立預算裡面跟基金對不出來嘛那好不容易對他已經把數額都對得非常清楚了但是我從主計長您的回應裡面沒有聽到究竟你們要怎麼做現在是什麼狀況您一直告訴我們行政上的處理我們還要再上行政課"},{"start":6959.793,"end":6982.711,"text":"所以如果這個部分能夠很清楚那我們協商可能還會有一個結果嘛那也很感謝這個我們陳英委員談到了這個華東基金那華東基金其實沒有我們原住民的這個基金預算法第4條的這個區塊您剛才類比的這個部分或許可以在行政上再確認清楚對族人而言我們需要"},{"start":6984.261,"end":7010.058,"text":"把這個錢給領到而且確定對所有的人而言那我們依法行政嘛那你們怎麼挪怎麼來那你們就是不要去阻擋到我們的權益這就是一個很基礎的概念而已概念而已你們大可以用許多的語彙很多的行政專業口吻來跟族人說但是重點就是我們需要這麼卑微的要這個錢嗎我們配合了國家的發展那我們需要這麼卑微嗎"},{"start":7017.304,"end":7030.742,"text":"若呼籲原住民的委員跟原住民我們不要被這樣一個體制給裂解我們沒有這樣子的空間謝謝好 謝謝林芊怡委員發言"},{"start":7034.164,"end":7035.165,"text":"我們休息十分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":7074.004,"end":7077.246,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7101.856,"end":7113.581,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7120.002,"end":7122.984,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7153.047,"end":7166.158,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7221.175,"end":7221.779,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議"},{"start":8507.609,"end":8532.26,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部也謝謝各位列席的官員我們現在林市民市長你請求發言的請簡短二要我馬上要列一下不是要幹事長請準備是我們今天的主題除了禁法補償以外我們對於農民權益的保障就是我們公糧收購提高到五塊這一部分那我想雲林的張家俊委員他也到場了"},{"start":8533.34,"end":8549.875,"text":"還有張奇快委員也到場了還有丁薛忠委員他們都很關心這個議題所以這個議題我們是認為今天的協商也是在這個內容裡面所以我們請院長就是讓我們幾位委員來做發言對這個議題謝謝林士兵書記長的發言請吳思瑤幹事長請發言謝謝主席我想就程序上表達我的意見因為我不知道因為"},{"start":8558.72,"end":8582.016,"text":"今天在這個場合應當就是討論總預算要不要進入審查然後院長總需要來備詢然後以及後續排定審查的時間今天朝野協商的各黨黨編在這裡應當解決三兆總預算的排審問題那我們剛剛花了一個多小時將近兩個小時在討論單一個應當在內政委員會討論的原住民族"},{"start":8589.14,"end":8594.423,"text":"一、繼續研商有關:「114年度中央政府總預算案．含附屬單位預算及綜計表．含附屬單位預算案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8612.893,"end":8636.991,"text":"那我不曉得現在如果公良收購要繼續講那是不是等一下未還委員會的委員又來講典值健保典值那又把應當在未還委員會討論的環境部的預算又拉到今天要討論三兆總預算的現場這樣子下去我覺得都完全我們非常尊重大家發言的機會但是相關發言相關議題都應當回到相關的委員會"},{"start":8641.454,"end":8641.994,"text":"三、民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議"},{"start":8668.198,"end":8693.707,"text":"這個都是既定的程序而不是在今天我們在解決總預算希望能夠解套交付審查的這個協商會議上進行個別單項預算的討論因為時間是大家的那在相關對的場域討論對的事情這是我們的期待那我另外也要說三兆的總預算如果持續沒有辦法往前推進"},{"start":8694.867,"end":8708.37,"text":"明天可能是第6次來決定．他能不能夠順利審查．又有颱風要來了．新增的159億的治水預算．能不能夠被致用呢．在新年度．這幾天．共軍不斷的將軍演常態化．如果黨下的總預算不審．我們的國防預算．也可能就沒有辦法在新年度．被執行了．"},{"start":8723.729,"end":8724.77,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":8744.286,"end":8762.694,"text":"如果說總預算沒有辦法交付審查（我們有60億的健康台灣生耕計畫（這要做長照的（我們有50億的癌症新藥暫時性的支付預算（沒有辦法支應（這是要照顧癌症病友的（如果總預算沒有辦法交付審查（我們有高達68.85億攸關護理人力（"},{"start":8766.596,"end":8772.517,"text":"有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8787.779,"end":8801.894,"text":"我知道原住民族的朋友們﹐很多在偏鄉﹐我們對於新年度的新興計畫裡頭﹐偏遠地區﹐不管是道路教育的設施﹐數十億省道改善的計畫來自農業縣的朋友﹐"},{"start":8804.443,"end":8830.921,"text":"省道改善的計劃道路改善新興計劃有104.55億如果今天沒有辦法再往前推進我剛剛說的這些預算都沒有辦法在新年度被執行所以我們關切原住民族的委員們關切所謂長期我們這片土地最溫暖的力量我們族人朋友的權益同樣的我們也要兼顧全體國人的權益"},{"start":8833.783,"end":8850.591,"text":"我﹐很遺憾的說﹐我的選區﹐在臺北市山區最多的地區﹐我現在仍坐在這裡協商﹐我的服務團隊告訴我﹐他們正要前往陽津公路﹐陽津公路今天因為雨來﹐後來啊﹐又癱瘓了﹐"},{"start":8852.749,"end":8875.342,"text":"現在正要針對防災這些東西來啟動大家有各自的選民要服務我們不要讓政府總預算沒有辦法前進我坐在這裡我坐在黨邊我和其的交集我的選區現在陽津公路整個攤房中斷我們需要防災治水請不要"},{"start":8877.123,"end":8902.634,"text":"繼續以單一課題來影響總預算的交付審查．希望內政委員會的委員足夠專業．可以針對禁法補償的政策找出解方．我們相信經濟委員會的委員足夠理性．可以解決共商出公糧收購．後續的預算執行問題．我們更相信未還委員會的委員．大家都有經驗、資深．"},{"start":8904.875,"end":8913.307,"text":"能夠針對健保典值的事務．在審議預算的期間．表達方法．所以再次懇求．"},{"start":8914.994,"end":8941.744,"text":"等下主席您也許有一些遇擬的才事但是這麼重要的遇擬才事我們希望是針對總預算後續進行的時程來做進一步的討論好 謝謝吳思耀幹事長的提醒那三位立法委員為了農民的公糧收購也在這邊作證我想我們簡短扼要的說明好嗎首先請張家俊委員發言請丁薛忠委員準備"},{"start":8943.674,"end":8964.812,"text":"謝謝院長主持協商那呼應一下吳斯堯委員其實今天的開會是有關於中央政府總預算案那不只是國民黨還有民眾黨我們提出的三樣訴求第一個是原名第二個是公糧收購價格提高第三個是健保點值0.95那我想這三個議題都必須要受到重視跟討論我們才有辦法往前推進那我想要講的是"},{"start":8972.919,"end":8974.801,"text":"農業部完全是裝蒜公糧收購價格提高這件事情"},{"start":8980.816,"end":9004.955,"text":"這麼的明確（他一直在講說一級二轉三加三（那是一個新的名詞來包裝（農業部已經行之有年（十年以上的這樣子的一個政策（那既然他已經實施十年以上（而且他也沒有辦法取代公糧收購制度（那就代表著公糧收購制度（有其存在的必要性（"},{"start":9006.056,"end":9008.598,"text":"包括說他講的說一級二轉三加三（如果假設他有效的話（他已經有效了（甚至說他說一年會提高一塊（我也主動的在這個經濟委員會上（質詢了陳俊記部長（我說你有辦法保證說這個實施下去（一年真的會漲一塊嗎（"},{"start":9030.217,"end":9036.799,"text":"如果不能長一塊你可以下台負責嗎他說他不敢保證所以他就是把農民當作實驗品嘛為什麼不能夠好好的來落實照顧這些農民呢他說因為呢他要做這個集中這個擴大這個產量我的意思是說他一級二轉三加三照顧的都是大農我們公糧收購"},{"start":9056.346,"end":9068.233,"text":"制度是在照顧老農、小農這樣子所以我覺得應該是要並行而不是一再的說不願意來推動公糧收購價格提高而且如果以去年收購29.1萬噸量來算的話假設不要說提高5塊提高8塊也只增加23億"},{"start":9079.76,"end":9083.865,"text":"就算是2012年那一年中了45.6萬噸（也只增加36億（所以哪裏來的100億（請不要危言聳聽（而且公糧收購是有限制的（"},{"start":9094.377,"end":9109.942,"text":"他不是一個毫無限制的收購甚至說公糧收購價格提高才有助於民糧價格也提高我在最近一直訪視了很多的糧商除了訪視農民之外我也訪視了糧商我說請問你們反對公糧收購價格提高嗎糧商很意外的"},{"start":9116.264,"end":9119.865,"text":"表示了意見．他說假設公糧收購價格不提高．他們也收不到糧．因為越來越少農民種稻．所以他們支持公糧收購價格提高．讓他們可以更好的去收到糧食．那再進一步呢．為什麼"},{"start":9135.271,"end":9137.593,"text":"為什麼一級二轉三加三這麼多年這個新名詞的包裝還是有這麼多的農民種水稻有一個原因是有很多年老弱勢的農民他們幾十年來就只會種水稻你要他們轉就是逼迫他們老年轉業"},{"start":9155.206,"end":9180.18,"text":"就是提高公糧收購的補助主要就是在照顧這些比較弱勢的農民他們沒有成本去做溫室他們也沒有技術去種一些新的作物他們只會種到所以我不能理解說為什麼農業部他的主旨應該是要照顧農民而不是去講求績效講求理想他一再的去講一級二轉三加三"},{"start":9180.94,"end":9184.723,"text":"你就站出來嘛否則農業部就站出來說我就是不願意照顧這些農民我就是不願意照顧這些老農不要再找理由講說什麼財政紀律法違反財政紀律法那過去長的那兩次都是違法的囉陳水扁的時代長的時候是違法嗎馬英九時代長的時候是違法嗎為什麼農業部不願意去面對說他只要願意把它編列下去再更甚"},{"start":9209.298,"end":9231.748,"text":"他說這個一級二轉三加三兩個計算起來說實在以他的計算公式差了大概五十億吧但是以真正的計算方式其實應該不用五十億可能二十億、三十億那就是他不願意嘛那否則就卓院長大聲站出來就說我不願意支持公糧收購價格提高不要再講一些這個虛無縹緲的理由謝謝"},{"start":9237.631,"end":9238.973,"text":"主席,感謝院長。"},{"start":9251.691,"end":9256.312,"text":"的用意是什麼?就是因為我們這個政法局長（這個介紹有關了（還有我們公衆記者（這個企劃課現在有關了（以及我們的政法有點數（現在有關了（這都經過了我們立法院（大院統計的一個案其實我"},{"start":9276.195,"end":9280.4,"text":"當然,之前,經常遇到一些我們的農民市長,他們一直知道說,我們立法院已經通過五項這個公職人員修改的介紹,為什麼我們的行政院副委員用於什麼?因為大家在哀,哀說"},{"start":9296.408,"end":9302.189,"text":"整項議案、農業議案、工廠議案．誰都去,公職人員十三年就起位起來對他們來說,他們的修例堅固我們現在是希望說﹐可以透過政府單位﹐和我們這裡的辛苦的農民﹐和最基層的農民﹐讓他們有一碗飯好吃﹐未來透過國土計劃﹐再進行下去我們有關農地﹐"},{"start":9324.67,"end":9324.77,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9339.497,"end":9343.938,"text":"關乎大家的中心基金（我們來讓我們的農民（可以有更好的一個高中（讓他們有更好的一個修律（讓他們有辦法看到說（我們真正政府單位對他們（的真正的照顧（不要說只要依我們分的觀來說（我們就才會將近六成（的土地都是在掙扎（他們是要付這全國的（這個素材（這個入息（"},{"start":9367.262,"end":9372.665,"text":"有一個提供、有一個大款（所以為什麼我們的藥金來提這個案（我們不是說我們要來表現什麼（我們是實際說（我們有夠有一個事務啊（我們要做的是什麼（是要做好人群（不是來為人送天（不是來阻礙到一切（醫生謝謝丁薛忠委員的發言（接下來張吉凱委員請發言"},{"start":9394.704,"end":9411.029,"text":"今天我們坐在這邊是因為民進黨政府違法在先不照顧該照顧的農民、原住民跟依附人員現在是誰卡住了總預算?不就是民進黨違法在先嗎?這剛好啊!這以前民進黨常常贏的啊!這送回去程序委員會啊!該補的補好啊!"},{"start":9421.155,"end":9422.536,"text":"民進黨沒有一個人舉手反對欸那是113個立法院共同的決定欸"},{"start":9449.156,"end":9469.05,"text":"你現在吃西瓜不然要反省嗎?你沒有反對,你用現在反對什麼意思?地質的都要補,農業部本來不就是應該照顧最基層、最善良、最弱勢的農民嗎?那我現在變成都不站出來的,你反對嗎?你補什麼?什麼一集二?二轉三加三?農民說聽不到啊!"},{"start":9470.373,"end":9477.815,"text":"而且根本就是舊的酒去裝在新瓶裏面（還是舊的酒啊!你五十幾噸都沒人給你… 農民都沒愛啊!你不要拿出來!草生的東西都拿出來!啊農民那你辛苦!十三年沒有條!政客現在說什麼?那是一分錢!沒錢!辛苦八噸!賺的錢都還不過去包一個紅白包一包!"},{"start":9496.545,"end":9500.688,"text":"一分多沒用半年一起做有時候還賺不到兩千塊你怎麼忍心這樣欺負農民呢第一個從法律面來講立法院過的你該編了而且有慣例啊剛剛家俊講了調過兩次了嘛美國一百年那個一公斤調高三塊錢就是立法院通過之後行政部分就編了嘛你為什麼把這個慣例要推翻掉"},{"start":9525.08,"end":9538.132,"text":"我這個民進黨真的反對不要兩手這個手法啦你們就公開出來從總統行政院長到立法院黨團講清楚你們就是覺得農民不該領這個錢十三年沒調啦為什麼不調呢工資也漲了物價也漲了軍工價都調薪調了五次了勞工的基本工資已經調了幾次了憑什麼最弱勢的農民不照顧呢"},{"start":9551.052,"end":9562.772,"text":"我這個民進黨如果繼續反對 那你們就公開出來講你們反對這個農民 姑娘說過是不能調的要不然的話 拜託一下依照立法院通過的 當初你們沒有一個人反對好不好"},{"start":9564.343,"end":9586.093,"text":"趕快趕快通過這個法不是是你民進黨把預算卡住了你們趕快把它補好而且方法太多了把它補齊要把追加預算馬上就可以解決問題預算就趕快審要不然的話造成所有人民的福利跟建設停擺的不是在野黨是民進黨把預算卡住了謝謝謝謝張啟凱委員的發言紅色漢 中嘉賓委員要針對公良發言哈欠"},{"start":9595.98,"end":9618.469,"text":"其實針對公糧收購的價格或者是照顧農民的這個議題其實我想現在農業部是做足了非常多的準備那當然大家剛才都講到一計二轉三加三那事實上民進黨團其實也請教了很多農業界、食物界的專家確實都認為所謂公糧收購價格直接提高五塊的這個做法"},{"start":9619.269,"end":9647.814,"text":"看起來好像農民有受益可是幾乎絕大多數的專家都提醒這個做法的副作用很多為什麼行政部門或農業部對於這個做法一直存在著覺得需要再多討論的狀態就是因為擔憂到這個做法後續的副作用我們作為一個負責任的政治人物不能只看短不看長"},{"start":9649.529,"end":9670.148,"text":"我要再說一次一個負責任的政治人物不能只看短不看長所以這是為什麼也很多專業界的朋友告訴我們也許一級二轉三加三有可以再優化的空間如何做的可以讓農民更有感這件事情朝野可以一起來監督行政部門"},{"start":9671.149,"end":9680.116,"text":"但這是一個比較長期建立可長可久的機制相對是比較健康的機制我還是必須要講這是第一點第二點"},{"start":9681.697,"end":9710.465,"text":"我們都希望照顧農民而且都希望大力的照顧農民紅委員你請教的是專家不是農民欸欸欸對不起欸那個要發言請特定學校主席啊好請繼續紅委員請繼續我們也請教了農民也請教了專業界也請教了食物界的食物的工作者每個農民都是食物工作者我們也請教都請教了齁那大家也清楚我們是立法委員當時在立法院做成這個決議的形式其實是用一個主決議的形式"},{"start":9711.465,"end":9734.838,"text":"其實我們都心裡都非常清楚這個組決議的形式如果禁制要求增加預算的話這些事情跟在憲法裡面釋字264的釋字是有高度的違憲的疑慮的當初沒有意見的意思我必須說這個我們事後還是必須來回"},{"start":9736.28,"end":9750.337,"text":"我們事後還是必須來檢討它在法制上面的釋法性的這個層次但我就實質面來講這個決議我們並不能夠說今天只要行政部門不照著這個決議來做這些事情就叫做違法剛剛齊凱委員一直說"},{"start":9754.144,"end":9777.614,"text":"沒有按照當初的這個決議做就叫做違法行政部門違法我想這個敘述恐怕是有蠻大的問題所以我最後我再一次的review這個問題我們今天在這場協商很重要的關鍵是我們要一起來尋找怎麼樣子能夠讓我們的總預算往前走的共識我想這部分韓院長很清楚"},{"start":9778.703,"end":9804.57,"text":"所以我們在這裡面是想辦法求同存異 排除障礙 排除我們的總預算能夠往前進入到審查 包括附委我們一起來解決 把這個結給解開這是我們今天在這個地方 非常非常重要的目的所以我自己是希望 今天單案針對怎麼照顧農民的問題我們大家可以各自表述 這部分我們都尊重"},{"start":9805.629,"end":9826.015,"text":"大家可以各自表述我們都尊重大家一起來尋找對農民好的方法大家一起來講我們這都尊重不用誰去否定誰但我今天要說的事情是我們還是希望在我們今天這場協商裡面我們可以回到原本的總預算的這個問題我知道這韓院長也是非常非常關注這件事情以上 謝謝"},{"start":9826.835,"end":9835.338,"text":"謝謝我們鍾嘉賓委員發言,請好,謝謝院長,因為剛剛看到說公糧收購也是我們預算協商聽起來,要說佛羅圭這裡是代表農民,我們屏東也是農業館所以我想,來這裡能代表農民的不是在座幾位娘啦首先大家要有一個了解,對於他們,是我們台灣黨的祖母裡面的同大民族"},{"start":9852.003,"end":9864.481,"text":"一百十五萬黨但是不是所有的農民都選中了現在選中的農民不是大家可以交公牛大家都以為是提款、公牛、收工就是在照顧農民、照顧中農錯了"},{"start":9867.025,"end":9889.9,"text":"目前有一個數字,全部高公牛的兩萬三千的,以高公牛為主的五萬五千戶,但是高牛熊的,部分高牛熊為主的五萬,全部高牛熊的十萬,所以說啊,公牛熊剛才的介紹,你說是要照顧到手的農民,不是,是照顧到農,現在是照顧到農,所以說我們看,這個建設,這幾年來做什麼結構,我們的牛是生產,牛米是貴賓的,"},{"start":9897.365,"end":9898.266,"text":"二、國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":9922.122,"end":9934.067,"text":"但是你說紐鄉介紹留管．有兩公聘兩角地．他們兩角地就把你請進去．埋研究時代起三課．民職請到一位．結果我們的民用．我們的紐鄉的介紹．存19課．結果做什麼問題．三個問題．第一．"},{"start":9941.107,"end":9953.898,"text":"三、外商糾結））一、立法院首項要由豬牛村內做營養午餐）大家要看得到嗎?兩、用賣的米、用好的米）第三、用人頭去糕公牛）這些東西事實上存在）大家報章顯顯的資料調查都有）所以說不要再批評事實啦）不要說首項介紹條款在照顧農民）不是,是照顧中農）照顧有辦法糕公牛的中農）這些人是接受）"},{"start":9968.59,"end":9973.752,"text":"這沒有事實所以說真的在農業關我們關那些什麼預算我們關那些是現在給各位我們的大委員動調的我們的農產水利50億的預算智商環防45億我們的農業基金29億農營用電差價補助24億"},{"start":9986.778,"end":10001.84,"text":"所以要提醒各位你現在條件這幾項可以增加多少預算要增加一百四百兩這一百四百兩要照顧農民不好意思我們平東關我們需要治山還洪需要冷鏈需要電池的差異步驟以上"},{"start":10004.754,"end":10032.474,"text":"好,謝謝農業縣的立法委員、張家俊委員、丁學忠委員、鍾嘉斌委員跟張祺凱委員共同關心我們農民稻谷收購但是我還是要回到我們今天我們黨團協商對不起,中央政府總預算我們主旋律裡面請各位委員能夠一人發言大家表達心意好不好好,在這裡我嘗試各黨團幹部還有剛才所有原住民委員的發言我嘗試做一個"},{"start":10034.897,"end":10039.482,"text":"結論就教予各位黨團幹部跟各位原住民的委員同仁"},{"start":10040.984,"end":10064.82,"text":"大家有意見的話可以修正若沒有意見的話我來宣讀給大家聽聽看一、跟大家說明行政院對立法院負責這次憲法規定有關禁法補償爭議涉及已由總統名利公佈施行之法律該法律明定之法定義務之初行政院在其編列之預算案中卻沒有依法律編列的爭議"},{"start":10066.101,"end":10095.444,"text":"二、席內就此若沒有正式回應（這牽扯到兩院未來的互動機制和民主的運作（是知識體大三、由於我們已經協商多次（目前因為少編兩萬元（因此在這裡我們多次的黨團協商（主計長所提的解決方案（各黨團仍有不同看法由於預算案之編制依預算法及本院總預算案審查程序等相關規定必須"},{"start":10097.438,"end":10113.848,"text":"必須經過行政院院長、主席長還有財政部部長來立法院進行編制報告並備諮詢我們是不是應該讓行政院有一個正式回應的機會是,我們定一個時間"},{"start":10115.421,"end":10142.403,"text":"二、邀請行政院長率同財主單位來立法院進行編制情況．情形再由本院委員會進行有關諮詢．詢答完畢之後．我們再依各黨團的提議．交由院會處理．來進行本案的後續處理五、目前有一個草稿馬上發到各黨團幹部手上．請各黨團幹部來"},{"start":10145.43,"end":10146.354,"text":"仔細閱覽一下來念一下"},{"start":10158.277,"end":10186.732,"text":"一、竹記長所提補足原住民進法補償預算處理之解決方案本案由原民會辦理進法補償相關事宜實際執行經費若有不敷可由原住民民族綜合發展基金先行之印再於後續年度編列預算歸還動之第二預備金或追加預算等方式辦理相關預算事宜"},{"start":10187.731,"end":10212.157,"text":"二、各黨團同意11月1日 及11月5日 邀請行政院長、主計長、財政部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告《114年度中央政府總預算案》及《中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案》"},{"start":10214.193,"end":10223.481,"text":"編制經過並備質詢（質詢人數由國民黨團推派16位（民進黨團推派16位（臺灣民眾黨團推派3位進行（質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理（名單請於10月31日星期四中午12點前送至議事處會診（當次會議不處理臨時提案（"},{"start":10241.255,"end":10267.862,"text":"三、上開報告應就原住民進法補償、公糧收購及健保點子等預算編制情況並與報告四、有關行政院涵請審議之114年度中央政府總預算案（含附屬單位預算及綜計表．營業及非營業部分．中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案．列入11月1日星期五院會報告事項"},{"start":10270.672,"end":10285.705,"text":"五、請財政委員會10月31日星期四下午5點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事處,以立11月1日星期五院會之報告以上,協商結論這5點前,各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見請發言一、首先請吳思瑤幹事長發言"},{"start":10291.737,"end":10315.594,"text":"謝謝院長試圖來做總預算的解決方案來提出一些結論但是既然是協商結論我們要非常慎重因為這都會攸關我們是不是在一個正確的處理程序以及對於立委對審議預算期間或者是修法期間那行使的這個預算審議權是不是有過當來嚴重侵害到行政權的問題都要一併處理"},{"start":10321.184,"end":10334.739,"text":"我先跟院長講兩件事我先從您的第二大點裡頭就是舊程序面來講如果說各黨同意要進行安排進入預算的質詢"},{"start":10337.021,"end":10361.351,"text":"以往例,您的時間應當是11月1日、5日當然時間大家可以來討論要各部會來,您這邊我們這次有四個預算案但是有三個預算案要報告一個是總預算,一個是前瞻建設然後其實還有一個台電的追加預算所以本黨從第一次這個會期的第一次協商我們就希望是三個預算案都能夠排時間"},{"start":10362.871,"end":10389.647,"text":"這是第一件事情當然如果院長覺得說我們要總預算加前瞻先來這我們大家來談但是以往例過去每一次在開議預算會期在協商決定總預算報告的時程以及附委審查的時程應當都會在報告時間定下來之後也會很清楚的來明定各黨的發言人數"},{"start":10390.768,"end":10407.771,"text":"以及關鍵字在這裡（尋答結束交付審查（各黨團同意不提出複議（這個不是我今天提出來（這是例次每一次預算會期進行預算的報告案"},{"start":10408.891,"end":10429.229,"text":"必然的程序這是過去以來的程序沒有變過換言之今天是不是請求院長第二點的部分如果要具體排入這個預算的審查期程第一個我們還是希望爭取台電追加減的預算因為這一次是三個預算案一次要報告要把它放進去"},{"start":10430.49,"end":10454.944,"text":"二、巡達結束後．復委交付審查．各黨團不再提復議．這是必然的回過頭來也要徵得院長的理解跟說明其實針對今天決定事項的第一項主計長所提針對禁法補償的這件事情的解決方案"},{"start":10456.181,"end":10459.102,"text":"主要是來自於對於《憲法》、《預算法》、《財政紀律法》、《財化法》相關規定的認知不同"},{"start":10477.17,"end":10500.682,"text":"但是立法委員也要依法行政韓國瑜院長領導的立法院也要依法來進行所以說是不是能夠在第一項裡頭也應當把行政部門非常在意也是多次的提出來的就是立法委員所提法律案大幅增加稅出或減少稅入者應先徵詢行政機關意見"},{"start":10503.023,"end":10519.895,"text":"並指明彌補資金來源．因此行政立法基於互相尊重．我們共同來補正建行上開的必要程序我覺得有這個前提．然後才會有針對原住民進法補償．這個新年度114年怎麼邊轉"},{"start":10521.156,"end":10521.316,"text":"主席"},{"start":10537.618,"end":10537.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":10558.653,"end":10582.988,"text":"預算解決的方案那第二點希望循過去的往例謝謝院長協助讓總預算如果能夠進入排審、循答那他必然也會在循答結束後交付委員會審查各黨團不再提復議這個是必要的程序謝謝民進黨團幹事長吳思堯的發言接下來我們請國民黨團林思堯署長請發言"},{"start":10586.117,"end":10594.12,"text":"林士明署長請發言謝謝院長對於這個協商結論我們針對第一點第一點對於主席長的意見雖然寫在第一點但是實際上我們各黨團認為達成協商的一個共識所以我們希望在第一點的最後加上幾個文字就是說各黨團尚無共識這是第一點"},{"start":10612.947,"end":10616.548,"text":"第二點對於11月1日和11月5日邀請院長來做預算編制的報告基本上我們是沒有意見推派人數也沒有意見,諮詢順序由授權議事處辦理"},{"start":10633.112,"end":10636.879,"text":"但是我們對於說該不是要幹事長講說要把台電的預算一併來納入這個部分我想因為我們是不同意我想這個是兩回事"},{"start":10645.015,"end":10657.565,"text":"另外所不得再提附議,我想這部分也是我們愛南接受的。我們還沒有達成共識,還沒有達成共識,我們還沒有達成共識,那是說,選答完畢之後,當然我們沒有所謂的就直接交付審查的問題,"},{"start":10669.915,"end":10694.402,"text":"我想我們還是要經過我們聽了我們行政院長對預算編制的情形之後那我們再來決定是不是還要交付委員會來審查那其他就這個其他幾個事項我想大概我們是沒有什麼意見的所以我就是做這樣的表示以上謝謝好請台灣民眾黨發言"},{"start":10699.766,"end":10725.845,"text":"謝謝院長理解院長希望事情往前推進的苦心只是我剛剛看到那個書面剛剛院長在台上其實我覺得念了一段蠻鄭重的文字對於到目前為止所為什麼發生這些爭議您算是一個蠻中立的立場所做的一個客觀的描述那個客觀的描述是不是也應該把它放在前面"},{"start":10727.626,"end":10751.875,"text":"因為可能在不同的黨團在這件事情上面的看法完全不一樣民進黨黨團站在的是行政院的立場但立法院我們站的立場是立法院的立場什麼是立法院的立場今天又走到這一步事情的根源要講清楚就是行政院沒有依法編列預算嘛事情就這麼簡單"},{"start":10754.11,"end":10779.643,"text":"禁法補償條例是不是現在三讀有效通過的法律?是啊這個是一個客觀的法秩序行政院沒有依法編列預算要立法院怎麼進入實質的審議程序這才是問題的根源第二個部分是院長的苦心心要往前推進先請他來報告"},{"start":10781.798,"end":10809.306,"text":"報告你這個預算到底是怎麼編的嗎?特別是針對禁法補償、公糧收購還有健保點子嗎?這一定要給立法院一個清楚的回應所以我基本上就是說對於院長希望往前推進這件事情我了解你的苦心所以我也不願意再添加太多的前提讓你推進的苦心越來越困難"},{"start":10811.427,"end":10826.442,"text":"對那不過我覺得你前面齁剛剛在台上我相信你應該是有準備一個正式的稿子啦你所做的那個宣告我覺得如果合宜的話也可以把它放在協商的結論文字當中OK民進黨團請二人發言"},{"start":10836.226,"end":10836.788,"text":"林蔡書記長好謝謝院長"},{"start":10842.199,"end":10866.15,"text":"那針對剛剛院長所裁示的這一個是你的協商結論那剛剛事實上國民黨有希望加注那這個民眾黨黃總召也有說有希望文字那我們民進黨所堅持的就是國家不管是行政、立法他在編列財政的時候財政紀律是一個很重要的考量"},{"start":10866.61,"end":10882.646,"text":"所以我們還是希望．可以加注說．未來立法委員所提的法案．它大幅增加稅出或減少收入者．應先徵詢行政機關意見．並指明資金來源．行政立法互相尊重"},{"start":10883.487,"end":10909.085,"text":"然後我們可以共同來補正進行上開的必要程序這個是我們堅持可以在第一段裡面也加入民進黨團有這樣的一個立場因為國民黨剛剛有說各黨團尚無共識所以如果國民黨要加這樣的文字那把民進黨的這個文字放在第一段那應該也沒有關係否則我還有第二個建議就是說因為我們第三段就有講到"},{"start":10909.986,"end":10928.312,"text":"上開報告應就原住民進法補償、公糧收購及健保點子等預算編制處理情形並與報告那既然第三段已經講到了要並與報告那我們是不是在這個協商結論我們就不用第一段我們直接就把第二段"},{"start":10929.112,"end":10952.641,"text":"當作是我們大家共同要讓總預算可以往前一步的一個初步的一個共識但是就這一個院長所排定的這樣的一個日期我們還是希望國民黨可以說至少在我們這個地方可以口頭上就好可以說同意說我們審查後讓他交付委員會審查"},{"start":10955.658,"end":10964.646,"text":"要放文字否則我覺得打開天窗說亮話你們這樣只是做了讓大家去推派然後去做質詢之後那你們繼續去不讓它復違這樣也還是騙人的我們總預算還是會卡住所以我覺得至少在這個地方我們還是希望國民黨、民眾黨你們可以把"},{"start":10978.377,"end":10991.356,"text":"讓他交付委員會這件事情（也把它並入文字裡面（作為協商結論（那讓我們至少有信心（我們接下來（可以好好的來進行我們明年度的總預算的審查了（謝謝"},{"start":10995.779,"end":10999.78,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝院長用心良苦希望在我們現在其實焦灼滿久而且民進黨團也一直在強調說要趕快能夠有一些進程能進入審查所做的努力在這邊先感謝院長至於就是在文字的部分"},{"start":11022.528,"end":11037.514,"text":"現在看起來其實如果大家基本的共識都是希望讓我們中央政府總預算的審查能夠往前一步的話那我必須講大家就不要在文字上還要想來佔一點點便宜或者說我們口頭來承諾說這個"},{"start":11047.83,"end":11048.67,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11072.871,"end":11078.58,"text":"所以基本上在國民黨團來說的話其實剛才呼應一下剛才黃總召所說的就是剛才院長所講的文字我覺得我們可以把它放到我們最後的這個協商結論裡面"},{"start":11089.716,"end":11095.859,"text":"這就是第一段的部分我覺得大家是可以來做一些商量因為目前確實他並沒有什麼樣的共識但是在這邊我們還是會比較堅持就是大家願意共進一步因為事實上以目前來說確實行政院並沒有"},{"start":11110.788,"end":11123.439,"text":"提出一個合理（而且讓我們原住民（朋友或者是農民（跟醫護人員安心的一個解決的方案（那在這樣的狀況之下（那麼我們願意讓行政院院長團隊（能夠再來做一些報告（就是也是有一些補考的機會（然後大家再來做溝通協商（"},{"start":11135.629,"end":11151.482,"text":"所以這都是在野黨其實都已經釋出最高最高的善意其實老師說了包含剛才我們三位的這個這個包含我們嘉峻委員、學中委員還有那個齊凱委員所提的"},{"start":11153.323,"end":11156.025,"text":"老實講啊那個蔡書記長其實當時你在選舉的政見我不曉得你是不是忘記你選舉公報的政見其實我們這幾位委員也是實踐"},{"start":11168.635,"end":11170.757,"text":"當時你在選舉公報裏的政見所以我們很希望的是能夠讓整個的這個進程往前走一些但是我們仍然有一些原則的問題我們再給行政院一些時間我們這樣是可以齊頭並行 對不對這樣齊頭並行這就是院長的用心良苦"},{"start":11191.796,"end":11195.238,"text":"我們一直交錯在這邊,我們在一直開會,然後大家各說各話那其實完全也不符合民進黨團的想法嘛,不是一直希望說我們能進入報告,能進入審查如果今天的報告,我們經過報告之後,有助於這個審查的話"},{"start":11211.969,"end":11217.711,"text":"自然就會往前走啦不要對自己這樣的沒有信心啦不要對行政院這麼樣沒有信心所以基本上我覺得剛才所提到的一些協商結論大體上我們都是支持的那我們也希望民進黨團說到做到既然希望"},{"start":11231.676,"end":11231.976,"text":"基本上﹖"},{"start":11255.819,"end":11279.632,"text":"我臺灣民眾黨團體會到院長的苦心你需要往前邁進嘛先讓他來報告嘛說清楚那三件事情到底要怎麼處理嘛那往前邁進少一點其他的要件我們基本上都尊重院長在這個範圍裡面一個裁決的空間那其他的話我就先不要再講了"},{"start":11284.299,"end":11300.867,"text":"現在各黨團已經二輪發言完畢我知道,但是我誠懇的建議大家都可以感覺到我用心良苦對不對我們針對這個協商結論同意簽字還是不同意簽字我這裡有"},{"start":11301.727,"end":11316.437,"text":"同意簽字簽字我們就這樣的處理不同意簽字我們要約約還有最後的發言也許大家越來越接近了我提醒一下嘛就大家還是聚焦在這裡那不管是其他就暫時好請吳思瑤委員三次發言"},{"start":11317.117,"end":11319.779,"text":"第一點乾脆都不要寫了第一點乾脆都不要寫了"},{"start":11340.771,"end":11345.194,"text":"然後第二點呢（針對時程的部分（我要再次強調（過去歷次在協商總預算的"},{"start":11353.68,"end":11359.185,"text":"有關公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11381.087,"end":11394.675,"text":"報告完畢（然後交付審查（然後各黨同意不提附議（沒關係（這個東西（我也同意往前推一步（先進行報告（也沒有關係關係（但是（大家不要忘了（社會都在看（如果（大家希望能夠（真的讓它推進（就是後續（不要再卡審查的時間（不落文字（我也（我們也可以勉強接受（但是（"},{"start":11410.307,"end":11439.266,"text":"但是不要用這種話術我們希望大家是真心推進就是真的推進而不是先進行詢答之後在野黨的委員繼續卡預算不讓他交付審查大家君子我們的前提我們認為報告完依過去的慣例就是會交付審查所以如果未來在野黨委員在那個報告完之後還黨我希望不要發生這樣的事情"},{"start":11440.086,"end":11464.863,"text":"所以這是我們最終大家compromise我們都希望總預算不要再擋的這個前提那針對禁法補償如果要落第一段的文字那我們有我們堅持的就是這不是誰的政黨意見這是國家應當捍衛的憲政精神所以對於禁法補償的處理跟這個前提大家如果沒有共識那第一點可以不要寫我們今天就是讓總預算前進"},{"start":11466.784,"end":11480.135,"text":"然後後面有個向開報告就這幾項事情的編傳情形就是第三點確實是可以在報告當中請行政部門再說服他們的各個方案說服給在野黨的委員聽我們也認同這是我們真的覺得誠心誠意就是交付總預算的諮詢然後希望未來順利的交付審查"},{"start":11491.809,"end":11507.245,"text":"那一位剛剛有點到蔡易瑜委員我覺得這是人家的這個個人生意的問題那剛剛有點名 紅衛委員有攻擊到他 讓他回應一下嘛我主席來做決定嘛好不好各位黨團幹部有兩點報告第一"},{"start":11507.725,"end":11521.522,"text":"等下針對我們中央政府總預算．行政院長．帥柴族單位來報告完畢之後．我們立法院處理的情況．我們會請高處長講一、兩個．我們過去發生的．真實的一個案例．第二,蔡議員．蔡書記長提出權宜問題．我要徵詢國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨團．他說,請"},{"start":11526.869,"end":11549.008,"text":"他剛剛是直接點名我,希望我回應啊沒有沒有沒有,我想再補充一下,因為剛才施堯他對地點有意見沒有,大家現在就直接講一講啦,我們也不再休想講了我簡單回應一下沒有,我們先讓他發言啊我知道我知道,大家都有很多話要講"},{"start":11552.66,"end":11579.934,"text":"第一點我是覺得說留著也無妨第一點留著無妨就是說第一點是主席長他的意見主席長的意見我覺得我們還是要把他顯示出來這是我們在整個協商過程中主席長講的意見所以第一點你要希望保留對 因為各黨團沒有達成共識我們就是這個據實把它顯示出來所以這一點我是覺得沒有必要拿掉"},{"start":11581.144,"end":11582.968,"text":"黃國昌總統舉手請三次發言"},{"start":11588.584,"end":11607.776,"text":"因為我覺得院長就大家規則講好就講好就三個黨團的流發言不要有哪一個黨團有其他奇奇怪怪的特權那我再肯定一次院長希望往前推進的苦心那只是在詮釋上面的時候民進黨黨團的詮釋剛剛他們的黨團代表有說明"},{"start":11612.519,"end":11634.838,"text":"我們的詮釋是什麼我們的詮釋是行政院院長你好好的來報告報告你這個總預算怎麼會編成這個樣子三讀通過的法律你為什麼沒有編預算我希望聽行政院院長親自來跟全國人民解釋他把立法院三讀通過的東西當什麼所以不要再說在野黨在卡預算"},{"start":11636.111,"end":11642.992,"text":"這卡預算的是誰?這卡預算的是卓榮泰啊!為什麼我說卓榮泰在卡預算?你沒有依法編列預算嘛!"},{"start":11645.165,"end":11673.011,"text":"我希望不要發生這樣子的事情我真的希望不要發生這樣的事情請卓永泰好好地編預算你好好的編預算 立法院就好好審這有什麼問題呢解零還需細零人嘛對不對民進黨可以有民進黨的解釋有他們的立場各個黨團都有各個黨團的立場每個人一次輪流發言很公平誰也不用有特權以上"},{"start":11673.952,"end":11674.755,"text":"好 我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12032.758,"end":12059.493,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐好嗎來我們因為這個謝謝啊現在已經時間很晚了進行將近三個小時了那現在我們把立法院黨團協商結論今天整個協商結論從五條刪除第一條濃縮成四條在各位的手上我想我就不再念了因為都已經在手上大家已經念過了大家如果沒有意見我們現在就來簽字好嗎好"},{"start":12061.67,"end":12075.508,"text":"我來簽字也請各黨團幹部我們一起來簽字好嗎好另外一點這個選罷法的因為時間的關係我們就擇期再議好請大家簽字"},{"start":12080.407,"end":12094.492,"text":"如果各位黨團幹部都同意簽字之後我們今天會議我們特別謝謝主席長還有各位列席的官員非常感謝你們今天下午寶貴的一個下午也謝謝各位黨團幹部那我們就散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:01:36.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:01:39.302000+08:00","text":"我們現在正式開始進行朝野協商會議，謝謝大家。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:01:51.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:02:07.765000+08:00","text":"向各位黨團報告，今天列席的有行政院陳主計長，我們熱情歡迎；財政部的阮次長，熱情歡\n迎；經濟部的何次長，熱情歡迎，謝謝。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:02:07.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:02:11.507000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部、各位新聞界好朋友，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:02:27.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:02:50.145000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我們繼續研商有關「114 年度中央政府總預算（含附屬單位預算及綜計表─營\n業及非營業部分）」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案」、「113 年度中央政府\n總預算追加預算案」（民進黨黨團提議）；二、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正\n草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:02:53.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:03:11.401000+08:00","text":"上一次朝野協商結束的時候有請主計長跟各黨團溝通，還有幾天的時間能夠跟行政院各單位\n溝通，我們先請陳主計長來報告一下目前溝通以及研商的情形，請陳主計長發言。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:03:14.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:03:20.003000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、各黨團的委員還有同仁們，大家午安。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:03:21.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:03:57.613000+08:00","text":"我主要是針對行政院的立場還有\n將來財源籌措的方法，現在這個編列會有所爭議，主要是因為依照憲法第七十條及預算法第九\n十一條，還有財政紀律法、財政收支劃分法等相關的規定，所提的法律案大幅增加支出或減少\n歲入的部分要先徵詢行政機關的意見，還要指名相關資金的來源，因為我們當初在程序上沒有\n遂行，所以會有現在的爭議。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:03:58.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:04:23.131000+08:00","text":"現在如果朝野協商獲得一個結論，我們針對這個部分，禁伐補償\n的經費會在原住民族綜合發展基金裡面先行支應，後續年度再來補足。","quality":0.491},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:04:23.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:04:45.769000+08:00","text":"再來，針對健保點值，目前我們為了改善健保的財務狀況，在 114 年度已經挹注健保基金 336\n億，等於其中健保支出項目 181 億已經移公務負擔，另外又增挹健保基金 155 億；健保總額依\n照比例提升之後也可以增加五百多億，總共合起來增加七百多億。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:04:58.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:05:06.963000+08:00","text":"如果要用健保點值，健保點\n值是要視服務量，事後來看整個服務量，然後再去除。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:05:07.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:05:27.987000+08:00","text":"有的醫院服務太多，然後這個部分是怎\n麼樣去調整，因為我們健保制度是採總額制，並不是點值制，所以這還是必須要衛福部透過落\n實整個分級醫療的配套機制，逐步達到穩定醫療服務點值的目標。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:05:28.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:05:34.112000+08:00","text":"再來就是公糧收購的方案，經過農業部審慎評估和跟產業溝通，他們還是認為「1集 2轉 3加\n3」的策略推行 3 年以後再來提升整個公糧的價格，這個部分有納編預算，所以我建請是不是交\n付審查後，由農業部整個做政策的說明？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:05:34.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:05:34.332000+08:00","text":"以上補充。協 2","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:05:55.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:05:56.743000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳主計長的發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:05:57.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:02.770000+08:00","text":"接下來針對陳主計長的發言，各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見要提出？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:03.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:05.312000+08:00","text":"好\n，我們首先請國民黨團林思銘書記長發言。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:06.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:06.053000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:09.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:35.661000+08:00","text":"院長，今天聽了主計長剛才的發言，我們很遺憾，對於原住民禁伐補償這\n一部分，主計長還是堅持要在原住民族綜合發展基金裡面去撥補，我們一再強調，行政院要依\n法行政，因為這筆錢如果是用原住民族綜合發展基金裡面去撥補，這就沒有合法，就不合法、\n不合規嘛！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:36.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:45.049000+08:00","text":"所以我們真的是不理解，為什麼行政院到現在還一直堅持要在這個基金裡面去撥補\n？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:46.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:06:55.865000+08:00","text":"我們一直強調你要依法編列，這不是難事，你就把總預算做相關的預算調整，追加嘛！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:06:56.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:05.209000+08:00","text":"這是\n最簡單的一個方式，就是法律案已經通過了，如果你是用基金的方式來撥補，那你明年呢？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:05.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:13.391000+08:00","text":"你\n說你明年把這個錢再用撥補的方式撥補到我們的綜合發展基金，那明年、後年呢？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:13.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:14.412000+08:00","text":"若你不做呢\n？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:14.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:24.058500+08:00","text":"原民要怎麼樣求你、跟你哀號啊？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:24.058500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:33.705000+08:00","text":"因為這是法律案，所以你不能把它撥到什麼基金裡面去撥\n補，然後事後你們再從其他預算裡面去對基金挹注，這是不合法的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:33.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:07:39.652000+08:00","text":"所以我們堅持、我們認\n為這樣一個做法在不合法的情況之下，我們真的很難接受。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:07:40.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:08:20.102000+08:00","text":"我再講一下，這一次總預算，今天我們真的是希望行政院能夠有善意的回應，但聽到今天這\n樣一個結果，我們真的很遺憾，我們在星期二的程序委員會已經釋出很大的善意，我們希望在\n明天院會能夠把這件事情解決，但是我們看到民進黨今天在我們的議場外排隊，我們不曉得明\n天他們是要做什麼事情，是不是要干擾議事的進行呢？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:08:21.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:08:25.457000+08:00","text":"如果是真的要釋出善意的話，大家一定\n要互相的釋出善意。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T15:08:25.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:08:41.600000+08:00","text":"如果明天你們企圖霸占主席臺來干擾議事的進行，我們就真的看不到我們\n的執政黨有任何的善意，所以是誰在阻擋我們預算的審查，請國人要看清楚了，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:08:41.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:08:43.561000+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長的發言，我們請吳思瑤幹事長發言，台灣民眾黨請準備。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:08:51.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:09:12.838000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，謝謝各黨團的朋友，今天是第 3次我們坐下來好好磋商總預算是不是能夠\n順利來交付審查，這是第 3 次院長召集的朝野協商，我想大家時間都很寶貴，對於整個國家社\n會來講，更寶貴的是國家的進步跟人民的福祉。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:09:12.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:09:30.392000+08:00","text":"今天的協商，我們希望聚焦在總預算交付協商\n審查這一個重要議案，所以讓總預算能夠順利排入明天的議程，這是我們最希望能夠來踐行的\n。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:09:31.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:10:02.846000+08:00","text":"我優先回答一下林思銘書記長所說的，民進黨團今天在議場外排隊，我也清楚地在這個地方\n跟大家說明，正因為過去已經發生過幾次程序委員會因為沒有排定院會的議程，所以明天在議\n程未定的狀況之下，總預算能不能夠順利被排案，還不要說排案之後表決能不能通過，我是說\n能不能夠順利就總預算來排案的這個部分，我們當然希望它能夠順利被排案，所以我們讓黨團\n的同仁在那邊，因為大家知道都要在那裡遞案、排順序，也不希望我們最後又發生像有人覺得\n排我後面也叫插隊，我們都不需要有這樣子的事情發生，就是為了明天的議案，因為議程未定\n。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:10:33.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:10:39.551000+08:00","text":"我們希望總預算能夠排入明天的議程，這是民進黨團同仁在現場，希望開始做這些預先部署\n的原因。","quality":0.439},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:10:40.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:11:09.492000+08:00","text":"但是另外我們也比較擔憂一點，就是今天看到院長除了總預算的協商，還排了選罷法\n的協商，這就是昨天讓整個黨團的同仁，也讓社會，包括很多跑國會新聞多年的媒體，大家都\n協 3\n在問一個問題：選罷法不是要先交黨團協商、由國民黨來召集嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:11:09.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:11:19.800000+08:00","text":"因為上一次、應當也是上周\n，第一次針對總預算協商，當時韓院長就已經把未經黨團協商的選罷法放到議程裡了。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:11:20.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:11:48.283000+08:00","text":"所以上\n周的協商經由本黨表達異議，認為這樣不符程序，不可以為了選罷法再一次閹割了程序正義，\n應當由提案委員就逕付二讀的議案，由該黨團來主持協商，終於讓選罷法回到應當有的議事規\n則，就是昨天由林思銘委員於昨天下午 4 點半召開選罷法協商。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:11:49.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:11:59.111000+08:00","text":"可是很奇怪，協商還沒開始、\n還沒進行，昨天中午我們就收到韓院長又把選罷法列到今天朝野協商的議程裡。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:12:00.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:12:07.742000+08:00","text":"我們當然擔憂\n國民黨的朋友們是不是又把協商當過水？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:12:08.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:12:20.470000+08:00","text":"非常遺憾，昨天下午 4 點半到 6 點的協商，就驗證了\n主席、主持的林思銘委員，確實就是把協商當過水了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:12:22.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:12:41.733000+08:00","text":"院長，今天就程序我們就讓總預算成為今天開會的優先事由，讓總預算的問題能夠被解決，\n大家智慧地提出解方，畢竟有總預算才有其他事項的爭取。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:12:42.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:12:56.911000+08:00","text":"如果總預算連續在明天第六擋，擋\n了六次，關乎民生的總預算沒有辦法進入程序、沒有辦法審查，卻又排上了要阻卻民權、沒收\n民權的選罷法，那社會沒有辦法接受！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:12:57.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:13:05.082000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望今天在程序上優先進行總預算，大家提出\n解方，建設性地來談話。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:13:05.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:13:17.966000+08:00","text":"至於選罷法，我呼籲也請求院長，昨天的協商是過水，希望今天韓院\n長的協商不應當再把它作為過水，以利於明天強行在院會表決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:13:17.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:13:21.088000+08:00","text":"我想這個不是回應社會的一個\n好方式。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:13:22.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:13:36.060000+08:00","text":"回到今天總預算的議程，我再一次說「依法行政」四個字不是只要求行政部門，立法部門的\n我們也是廣義的公務團隊，我們也需要依法行政！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:13:37.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:13:42.906000+08:00","text":"國家的法只有一套，從憲法到預算法，到財\n政紀律法，到財劃法都只有一套在面對預算編列原則。","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:13:43.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:14:19.236000+08:00","text":"對於原民相關的經費預算，我們希望回\n到內政委員會，在總預算交付審查之後，原民的預算就在內政委員會好好處理，讓其他議案回\n到各該委員會，讓各該委員會踐行委員會中心主義，因為這些委員更專業，更了解各該政策，\n回到應當有的場域去做應當有的討論。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:14:19.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:14:23.299000+08:00","text":"至於今天院長層級的朝野協商，我們就具體針對總預算的後續必須排時程由院長來報告。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:14:30.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:14:52.521000+08:00","text":"我\n們這一次要處理的還有四個預算案，四個預算案都把報告的期程排出來，包括審查的時程一併\n排出來，讓立法院的議事回到正軌，讓審預算的程序回到應當有的程序，這是民進黨團今天的\n目標。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:14:55.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:13.338000+08:00","text":"禁伐補償部分，在第一輪我不想再針對這個內容去做太多著墨，因為我希望主席可以發揮您\n的協助，讓總預算優先交付審查，讓原民的預算回到內政委員會。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:13.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:21.620000+08:00","text":"但如果稍後或在野黨團同仁\n們還是想對禁伐補償做進一步討論，那麼就該部分的實質意見，我會再來發表。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:22.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:30.603000+08:00","text":"同樣，回到依法行政，我們只有同一套法制在法治國家──臺灣。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:30.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:32.844000+08:00","text":"這點同樣要求行政部門，\n也要求立法部門，報告完畢。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:34.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:36.065000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的發言。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:36.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:38.127000+08:00","text":"在台灣民眾黨發言之前，我想特別介紹。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:38.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:15:49.037000+08:00","text":"今天在我們立法院外有\n很多民眾來陳情、表達意見，我們現在開朝野協商，多位原住民立委也一起來參與，在此我特\n別要介紹，讓大家都知道。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:15:49.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:16:04.356000+08:00","text":"在我左手邊的有盧縣一委員、高金素梅委員及鄭天財委員，右手邊\n的是伍麗華委員及陳瑩委員，大家都非常的關切，也要跟全國觀眾、全國朋友報告一下，原住\n民立委今天都非常非常關心這個案子。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:16:04.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:16:05.498000+08:00","text":"協 4\n現在請台灣民眾黨發言。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:16:10.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:16:11.257000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:16:11.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:16:33.570000+08:00","text":"我先針對我們今天協商的第一個主題，其他沒有必要的話，我在我的第一\n輪發言還是遵守我之前所講的原則，我不希望整個協商的現場變成是炮火四射的政治攻防，沒\n有意義，針對主題來進行發言就好了。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:16:34.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:16:42.778000+08:00","text":"我一開始發言還是希望遵守這個原則，等一下如果有逸\n出這個原則範圍之外的，第二輪發言再來處理。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:16:44.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:17:23.432000+08:00","text":"剛剛聽到主計長對於原住民禁伐補償的說明，我想台灣民眾黨團的立場非常清楚，臺灣是一\n個法治國家，針對原住民在保留地所做的特別犧牲，國家依法予以補償，這個是在落實憲法對\n於每一個人基本權利的保障，立法予以補償是立法機關在踐行我們對於受有特別犧牲的原住民\n本來就應該要做的事情，而且用法律來予以明定。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:17:24.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:17:44.990000+08:00","text":"也因此，依照立法院三讀通過的法律，原住\n民的保留地依法可以請求給付的公法上請求權本來就是一公頃 6 萬元，現在白紙黑字是有效、\n生效的法律，我想這一點無庸置疑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:17:46.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:17:58.165000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，我們當初在面對總預算的時候為什麼這麼堅持要求行政部門要把話說清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:17:58.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:18:17.449000+08:00","text":"因\n為接下來，未來等到預算付委審查了以後，請容我再強調一次，立法委員只能夠刪減，只能夠\n凍結，不能夠增加，在預算審查的過程當中不能夠增加。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:18:18.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:18:37.597000+08:00","text":"因此，當我們在預算書上面看不到財\n源的時候，我們就會非常關心行政院把錢編在哪裡，你沒有編經費的這個瑕疵，無論如何是不\n可能透過事後的預算審議來予以治癒這個瑕疵的。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:18:39.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:18:59.024000+08:00","text":"今天主計長終於說的看起來比較清楚了一點，但我有兩點困惑，等一下可能要請行政部門先\n表達一下他們的立場，總是要跟大家解惑啦，把事情說清楚講明白。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:19:01.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:19:20.832000+08:00","text":"剛剛主計長的說法是明年\n一公頃 6 萬元，4 萬元公務預算支出，2 萬元由原住民族綜合發展基金支出，我剛聽起來應該是\n沒有誤會主計長的意思。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:19:21.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:19:28.393000+08:00","text":"但我只有一點困惑，那個困惑是原住民族綜合發展基金可不可以拿來\n發禁伐補償？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:19:33.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:19:48.284000+08:00","text":"原住民族發展基金可不可以拿來發禁伐補償，這個是我的困惑，因為之前在討論\n相關議案的時候……可能等一下可以請比較熟悉這個議題的原民委員再幫我們做補充說明。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:19:48.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:20:15.761000+08:00","text":"因\n為上一次在協商的時候，也非常感謝鄭天財委員有提供我們立法院在 2018 年的時候曾做的一個\n決議，這個決議就是原住民族綜合發展基金用在禁伐補償是違法的，這個法制上面的疑義，目\n前行政院是不是釐清了？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:20:17.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:20:43.113000+08:00","text":"這個攸關我們在協商的第一個課題到底是不是可以順利的獲得解決，\n還是說目前行政院的立場是違法沒有關係，我反正先發，違法沒有關係，我反正先發，人民拿\n到錢最重要，未來再來調整，是不是有這樣的立場？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:20:43.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:20:46.374000+08:00","text":"恐怕要請行政院先說清楚講明白。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:20:47.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:20:53.017000+08:00","text":"第二個，行政院明年一公頃發 6 萬元，有沒有附帶條件？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:20:54.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:20:55.730000+08:00","text":"有沒有附帶條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:20:57.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:21:11.059000+08:00","text":"我必須要再說一\n次，因為上次協商的時候，我非常驚訝的聽到有個附帶條件，要我們同意明年要修到卓榮泰的\n一公頃 4 萬元，這個條件到目前為止存在還是不存在？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:21:12.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:21:34.650000+08:00","text":"可能也請我們行政部門能夠先表明，因\n為這個比較攸關我們等一下在討論的時候，是不是不管我們原住民朋友，還是其他應該要編的\n預算是不是有編足，我們可以順利的交給委員會審查一個滿重要的關鍵。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:21:34.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:21:41.674000+08:00","text":"其他的話我都先不說\n，我先針對總預算的這個部分來請教一下我們的行政部門。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:21:44.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:21:52.350000+08:00","text":"麻煩陳主計長針對剛才三位黨團委員發言的部分先做一下解釋，好不好？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:21:53.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:21:53.731000+08:00","text":"就先做一下說明。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:21:54.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:02.356000+08:00","text":"接下來，蔡易餘幹事長請準備，我們請主計長先說明一下，好嗎？","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:02.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:04.418000+08:00","text":"原住民發展基金能不能夠…\n協 5\n…","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:05.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:19.178000+08:00","text":"因為以原住民發展基金來說，在第二十一條裡面有規定到這個部分，就是應該提撥\n一定比例納入原住民族綜合發展基金，作為回饋或補償經費。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:19.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:28.903000+08:00","text":"所以在原住民族基本法第二十一\n條裡面就規定到支出，然後在第十八條裡面則是規定到收入，就是以相關收入作為財源。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:30.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:54.834000+08:00","text":"這個\n部分以往執行的時候也都是由公庫撥到基金去執行，所以我們每一年都撥了，像今年的 28 億也\n是會由公庫撥到基金 28 億，所以基金裡面今年也有編 28 億的支出，只是這個如果不足的部分\n，我們由基金的財源先行去支應，支應的結果不足，我們在以後年度來撥補，撥補給它這個不\n足的部分。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:54.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:22:54.954000+08:00","text":"以上說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:22:59.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:23:04.465000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，剛剛主計長的說明就是原住民基金撥發是合法的，完全合乎規定的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:23:05.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:23:34.764000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員，你稍微等一下，第一輪黨團幹部都發言完了，今天五位原住民委員還有雲林縣\n的張嘉郡委員都在現場，我想原住民委員一定有很多話想說，容許我來掌控一下這個議程，就\n是在三個黨團做二輪發言之後，原住民委員請準備發言，在原住民委員發言前，我們先讓黨團\n幹部發言，因為我們這是朝野協商，先讓黨團二輪發言，請原住民五位委員稍微準備一下，你\n們等一下要發言。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:23:34.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:23:36.044000+08:00","text":"好，請蔡易餘幹事長，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:23:36.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:23:36.044000+08:00","text":"書記長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:23:36.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:23:36.965000+08:00","text":"不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:23:37.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:25:18.263000+08:00","text":"院長，剛剛聽了三個黨團的第一輪發言，我首先有一個重點，臺灣是法治\n國家，這個法治的精神並不是只有行政要依法行政，我們立法院也是必須要依法來訂定我們的\n法律，既然預算法、財政紀律法以及相關的一些法律都有規定，在符合財政紀律的前提之下，\n立法時才能去做相關法令的訂定，所以事實上這就很清楚嘛，我們在講的就是說，我們今年度\n如果公務預算是發 4 萬元，剩下 2 萬元的部分就讓行政機關未來去尋找財源，剛剛討論的財源\n有可能是從基金來作為這個補充，這是一個行政機關現階段在協商的時候，也是經過院長多次\n主持，我們執政黨一樣是有誠意要來解決問題，我們希望總預算在可以趕快付委審查的前提之\n下，大概也有說如果真的今年 6 萬要上路的話，它的財源是怎樣，這是在協商的過程。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:25:18.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:25:55.503000+08:00","text":"但是大\n家不要忘記了，在這個法訂定的當下，基本上一直存在著因為財政紀律法第五條、第七條的規\n定，我們這樣的立法行為有違反了財政紀律的前提之下，所以我們才會希望今天的協商並不是\n單單就講禁伐補償明年度的問題，我們希望讓它法制化，所以我們希望有一個前提，就是我們\n再來補足、補正當時立法的瑕疵。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:25:57.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:26:25.019000+08:00","text":"當時的立法，因為行政機關並沒有同意到 6 萬，當時同意是 4\n萬，除了同意這部分之外，當時也並沒有說明彌補這個預算的財源，就是說在立法當時這些瑕\n疵都存在，既然大家也都有看到這些瑕疵，我們不能漠視，所以我們希望三個黨團可以一起來\n補正這樣的瑕疵，這是第一個。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:26:25.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:26:27+08:00","text":"第二個，院長抱歉，我再說明一下。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:26:27.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:26:43.549000+08:00","text":"如果依照原住民族基本法第十八條，關於原住民土地的\n賠償、補償及收益款、相關法令規定的撥款及其他收入，是可以用原住民族綜合發展基金來支\n付的。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:26:45.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:05.807000+08:00","text":"這個情況在 105年、106 年一直到 112 年，都一直有用基金來撥付的狀況，而且也不是只\n協 6\n有在民進黨執政的時候有用基金來撥付的狀況，相對的，在過去國民黨執政的時候，還是有一\n樣的狀況。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:27:05.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:22.964000+08:00","text":"所以不能說過去在用基金補充，大家就說那個情況都不要去談，現在主計長談到了\n用基金來補充，大家都說這個是不合法的，我想這個相對是我們比較不能接受的。謝謝。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:27:22.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:23.964000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:27:23.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:23.505000+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨團第二輪發言。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:27:31.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:39.292000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、我們各政黨代表，還有我們原住民的立委們。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:27:39.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:27:49.290000+08:00","text":"我想針對剛才主計長所提到\n的，現在看起來行政院仍然不採取重編預算，或者是用特別預算的方式，這種比較正常的預算\n程序來補救，就是一直糾結在綜合發展基金的支應。","quality":0.324},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:28:05.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:28:24.120000+08:00","text":"不過我想採用綜合發展基金到底有沒有違\n法的問題，到底有沒有排擠我們原民在其他的，包含他們的貸款，包含他們的住宅修繕、補助\n等等，都是由綜合發展基金支應，而一直在用綜合發展基金，已經使得原來百億的資產淨值，\n現在都變成負的，這樣是不是繼續地去犧牲我們原民朋友的權益，待會我們可以充分來聽原民\n委員的意見。","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:28:30.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:28:59.499000+08:00","text":"所以我要特別強調的是，當行政院也好，或者民進黨團也好，一直說要依法、依\n法，但是我們現在所討論的原民禁伐補償條例，它就是法律啊！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:29:00.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:29:12.567000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得非常奇怪，第一個\n，難道我們今天可以完全否定我們立法院所通過，總統公告實施的，這個不叫做「法律」嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:29:12.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:29:16.309000+08:00","text":"難道所謂「法律」的定義是由行政院說了算，或者民進黨團說了算嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:29:19.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:29:26.293000+08:00","text":"所以我們國民黨團在這\n邊，還是希望能夠循正常的預算程序去處理。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:29:26.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:29:35.916000+08:00","text":"所謂「正常的預算程序」就是你今年可以重編預算，我們今年新增的歲出高達 2,800 億，而這\n2,800 億的歲出裡面，很多根本不是法定預算支出。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:29:35.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:30:09.169000+08:00","text":"比如說最近還有提到，我們編了好幾百億的\n軍購，那事實上是美方都還沒有答應要賣給我們的，我們已經編在我們的歲出上囉，類似像這\n樣的歲出預算，事實上是非常多的，所以說 2,800 億不能夠去調整，然後讓我們的法定預算支出\n能夠依法來編列，我覺得無論如何是說不過去的。","quality":0.363},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:30:09.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:30:53.614000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛才我也聽到我們的主計長談到有關健保點值的部分，我不再贅述，他剛才說有挹\n注多少、健保總額多少等等，但是上個會期我們在朝野協商的時候，行政部門也在場，當時是\n希望能夠提高到 1 塊錢，那麼行政部門覺得這 1 塊錢會造成這個支出沒有辦法支應，所以在經\n過協商的時候，這個主決議不只是朝野政黨簽字，還有行政部門的認可啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:30:53.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:31:21.750000+08:00","text":"他們也認可說 0.95\n是行政部門可以接受的，因為當時就是把健保點值提高到 1，行政部門說這個金額太大，他們難\n以支應等等，所以當時也是協商的，你不能說現在又完全不認帳了吧！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:31:21.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:31:21.850000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:31:21.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:31:47.928000+08:00","text":"好，另外，公糧收購也是如此，其實今天的天氣非常不好，但是我們也看到在外面有我們的\n原民朋友、農民朋友還有我們的醫護人員朋友，大家都很關心我們這一場朝野協商。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:31:57.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:32:40.882000+08:00","text":"我必須講\n，事實上，以在野黨來講，我們真的有充分的善意，所以剛才我們的書記長也特別提到，在星\n期二的程序委員會上，我們留待星期五可以再討論，如果今天在野黨是為反對而反對、故意不\n審預算的話，那真的在星期二就直接退回算了，但是我們考慮到星期四還有一場朝野協商，而\n且我們也願意給行政院有更多的時間去解決這個問題，所以必須要強調。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:32:41.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:32:56.839000+08:00","text":"至於剛才有特別提到\n，今天早上我們看到民進黨的委員們也很辛苦，因為今天的天氣不好，大家早早的就守在了議\n場的門口，我也不知道守在議場門口到底他的意思是什麼，是要去霸占主席臺嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:32:56.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:32:57.120000+08:00","text":"是要干擾明\n天議事的進行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:32:57.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:32:58.240000+08:00","text":"可是剛才我聽到吳思瑤幹事長說其實是要確保我們相關的議事能夠進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:33:17.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:33:19.694000+08:00","text":"那\n協 7\n我也很納悶，因為事實上，我們同樣就是在院會的時候，那麼我們的議程不確定，然後我們在\n討論，也許會進入表決，但是以 10 月 4 號、10 月 18 號的狀況，其實都跟明天 10 月 25 號是一\n模一樣的。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:33:35.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:33:54.682000+08:00","text":"那麼我們也看到，我們在議場裡面容或有各政黨大家意見的不同，但是在 10 月 4 號\n、10 月 18 號其實我們都很順利的來進行討論，然後我們出席的委員也都能夠充分的表達意見，\n我不曉得明天會跟這幾天有什麼不一樣。","quality":0.635},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:33:54.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:37.977000+08:00","text":"所以要特別提出來，我們其實還是會非常的希望，就\n是把該編的法定預算還有相關主決議，也就是行政部門答應立法院、答應朝野立委該做的事情\n，能夠趕快、能夠對它應該有一個合理而且讓我們能夠接受的處理方式。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:38.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.098000+08:00","text":"我們當然也樂見這個\n預算趕快來審查，我們也樂見我們的院長可以來報告，但是這個前提一定是行政院必須要有誠\n意解決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.478000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.858000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，謝謝王鴻薇首席副書記長的發言。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:40.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:41.299000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨請二輪發言，哪一位？請。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:41.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:34:53.508500+08:00","text":"我可以回應一下議場外面的狀況嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:34:53.508500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:05.718000+08:00","text":"你先讓他做二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:05.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:10.061000+08:00","text":"請二輪發言，請。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:10.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:21.769000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，剛剛其實我提了兩個問題，第二個問題主計長沒有回，那沒有回，我就當\n他是不存在，所以現在已經沒有要在野黨配合他們明年修法，修回每公頃 4萬元的問題嘛！","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:21.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:22.769000+08:00","text":"有，我們有講。有喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:22.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:23.769000+08:00","text":"所以是你們提的條件還是行政部門提的條件？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:23.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:24.769000+08:00","text":"主計長沒有講，是民進黨這邊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:24.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:25.769000+08:00","text":"第一輪主計長就有講了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:25.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:26.769000+08:00","text":"沒有了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:26.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:27.769000+08:00","text":"沒有也沒關係，來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:27.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:35:28.769000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我們繼續講，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:35:25.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:36:09.977000+08:00","text":"我再說一次，在立法院三讀通過法律案以後，原住民針對他們的保留地，每公頃 6萬\n元，這個是三讀生效的法律，國家依法本來就應該要給付，這沒有什麼好說的，這才是法治國\n原則。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:36:09.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:36:53.501000+08:00","text":"這樣的給付，如果把它奠基在要求在野黨配合，明年把它修回去每公頃 4 萬元的話，我\n們不會接受，我們無法接受，如果依法行政，發給我們原住民朋友保留地每公頃 6 萬元，是用\n明年要我們答應修法，修回去每公頃 4 萬元的話，我們不會接受，我們也無法接受，用犧牲、\n用踐踏原住民族朋友的權益來當作代價，我們萬萬沒有辦法同意，這個是第一點立場要很清楚\n表明的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:36:53.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:38:06.013000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛剛主計長說這樣子的編列是合法的，那我就覺得有點困惑，因為除了在 2017 年，\n鄭天財委員上一次在協商的時候有提出來的一個主決議說，以後不可以再這樣做……是、是、\n是，他們每次都同意，除了 2017 年以外，2018 年 1 月 22 號（禮拜一），一樣是在總預算的協\n商，2018年 1月 22號，當初的行政院院長是賴清德，參與協商的是行政院的秘書長卓榮泰（當\n時的秘書長），那個時候第 6 案的主決議也說了，禁伐補償金預算，要不然就要編列在行政院\n，要不然就由行政院撥交原住民族委員會以公務預算來加以編列。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:38:07.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:38:45.842000+08:00","text":"過去由原住民族發展基金所\n協 8\n代墊的禁伐補償，在次一個年度要撥還，那我就覺得很困惑，因為剛剛主計長所講的法規狀態\n，跟我所拜讀到的過去所做的一些事情、情況都不太一樣，所以我剛剛所提的那個問題的第一\n點困惑還是存在，可能我在這個事物的理解上跟認知上比不上我們原住民的委員。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:38:45.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:02.487000+08:00","text":"今天也有很\n多原住民的委員都有參與，我想原住民族發展基金其實是最攸關原住民朋友的權益，等一下我\n們也抱持一個開放的心胸，聽聽看我們原住民委員大家所採取的看法是什麼，以上。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:04.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:06.116000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌、台灣民眾黨二輪發言。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:06.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:10.317000+08:00","text":"剛才蔡易餘書記長您說要對場外民眾講話是什麼意思？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:11.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:16.439000+08:00","text":"不是場外民眾，就是說議場我們現在有在排隊嘛，剛剛……","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:16.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:22.300000+08:00","text":"各位黨團，蔡易餘書記長的意思是，他是針對明天的排隊，他就是針對這一部分跟大家來報\n告一下。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:22.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:23.921000+08:00","text":"不要，還是以預算為主啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:23.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:24.581000+08:00","text":"我剛剛沒有講喔。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:24.581000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:25.581000+08:00","text":"不要有人有特權嘛，就一個黨團一次嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:24.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:36.774000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛有問嘛、剛剛有問嘛，我只有一句話啦、我只有一句話啦！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:36.774000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:37.774000+08:00","text":"我們尊重原住民委員好嗎？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:37.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:41.757000+08:00","text":"我上個禮拜跟洪申翰就去排了……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:41.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:42.757000+08:00","text":"尊重原住民委員好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:42.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:43.658000+08:00","text":"我們 3點就排了，我們優先遞案。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:43.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:44.658000+08:00","text":"尊重原住民委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:43.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:45.238000+08:00","text":"要不是院長協助你們，當時無異議，我們總預算就可以付委了。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:45.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:51.201000+08:00","text":"好、OK，書記長，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:51.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:39:51.841000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T15:39:52.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:05.186000+08:00","text":"院長，不好意思，容我打斷，我請院長跟大家再清楚說明一次規則，是三個黨團輪流\n，院長有點到名的才可以發言，還是大家隨便拿麥克風就可以發言？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:05.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:16.833500+08:00","text":"我剛剛有請示院長喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:16.833500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:28.481000+08:00","text":"沒關係，因為書記長剛報到嘛，其實這就是我們用黨團輪流，大家的權利義務是平等的，發\n言的時候就徵詢主席的同意，我想這個大家都很了解，這是開會的 ABC 啦，都了解，而且大家\n爾後就照這個原則，應該問題不大。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:28.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:33.303000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請原住民委員會……現在又來了一位，林倩綺原住民委員也來關心，感謝你，請\n坐。","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:34.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:50.308000+08:00","text":"等一下原住民委員……因為今天大概 7 位原住民委員在現場，因為我們黨團幹部開會時間\n的關係，我有幾點要特別拜託各位今天在座的原住民委員，我知道你們都很關心，第一個，請\n控制時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:50.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:56.110000+08:00","text":"第二個，重複性的也拜託大家就不用再……第三就是我希望我們情緒上能夠比較穩\n定，好不好？","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:56.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:57.110000+08:00","text":"因為大家都很關心，情緒上一定要拜託大家千萬要穩定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:57.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:58.110000+08:00","text":"請問我們原住民委員哪\n一位先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:58.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:59.110000+08:00","text":"好，高金委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:59.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:00.110000+08:00","text":"下面一位哪一位要準備發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:00.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:01.110000+08:00","text":"我想問一下，因為我們人數比較少……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:01.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:02.110000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，原住民的……不、不、不，會，我們舉手的，沒有、沒有，下面一位委員是哪\n一位準備發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:02.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:03.110000+08:00","text":"我要登記，好，伍麗華委員準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:40:57.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:40:57.870000+08:00","text":"協 9\n好，請高金委員發言，請。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:26.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:28.837000+08:00","text":"再一次謝謝韓院長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:28.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:41:40.726000+08:00","text":"這是我第三次參加朝野協商，我要跟場外我的族人、家人們說\n聲你們辛苦了，你們正在淋雨，我們在這裡在捍衛我們的尊嚴。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:41:40.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:02.983000+08:00","text":"剛剛黃國昌委員提到的那個主決議，其實就是我提的，所以我非常清楚的知道，當時的主決\n議就已經說了，我們的行政院禁伐補償必須要從公務預算裡面來編，當時的蘇主席說沒問題，\n蘇院長、蘇院長，對不起！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:02.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:08.266000+08:00","text":"蘇院長說這個做主決議，曾經有過的公文就在國昌老師的手上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:08.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:20.355000+08:00","text":"好，我要再講的就是，在原住民部落一直有人講，禁伐補償一定領得到 6 萬塊，我一直很納\n悶，主任也在問我，我們真的拿得到 6 萬塊嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:20.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:21.156000+08:00","text":"我們今天不就是為了行政院少編 2 萬塊在這裡\n協商嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:21.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:21.276000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:21.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:21.396000+08:00","text":"院長，對吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:30.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:42:43.639000+08:00","text":"我今天也很認真，我把兩本預算──一本公務預算、一本綜合\n發展基金帶來給大家看、來跟大家說明，各位委員回去的時候可以翻一下。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:42:44.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:19.892000+08:00","text":"我先來講原民單位\n預算的 81 頁歲出計畫，我們的確有看到禁伐補償編了 28.161 億，因此，我們來看一下綜合發展\n基金的 12 頁，就是比較黃一點的這一本 12 頁，的確在業務收入裡面也有看到，其他業務，它\n寫其他業務的收入是 28.161 億，好，這個部分就是由原民單位的 28.161 億裡面到綜合發展基金\n要去補禁伐補償的。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:28.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:34.460000+08:00","text":"好了，但是我又翻到綜合發展基金的 34 頁，114 年度的金額數，辦理禁伐\n補償的費用，它上面只有寫 27.87 億。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:34.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:34.640000+08:00","text":"奇怪了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:34.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:35.441000+08:00","text":"27.87 億跟 28.161 億，為什麼會少呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:35.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:36.442000+08:00","text":"到底在哪\n裡呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:36.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:43:37.483000+08:00","text":"我一直在找！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:43:37.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:44:23.098000+08:00","text":"好，終於，在 61 頁，各位委員可以翻到 61 頁的一般服務項下的第九，上\n面寫要辦理禁伐的後臺維運管理，也就是我們劃禁伐補償，它要有一些機制讓後臺管理的維運\n費 2,910 萬……大家都清楚知道，數字加起來就是 27.87 億加上 2,910 萬，等於公務預算裡面的\n28.161億。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:44:32.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:44:34.783000+08:00","text":"主計長，你不要說謊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:44:34.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:44:36.665000+08:00","text":"有些人也不要說謊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:44:36.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:44:48.798000+08:00","text":"都說基金跟公務預算一起編列，可以拿到 6 萬塊\n，報告大家，兩本預算書在這裡，回去好好用功看一下！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:44:50.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:01.790000+08:00","text":"我繼續要問一下，綜合發展基金，剛剛主計長有講希望在綜合發展基金，不足的那 2 萬塊要\n在綜合發展基金裡面，我們看不到啊！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:02.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:07.615000+08:00","text":"如果不足的 2 萬塊，按照我們現在七萬多公頃，應該要\n多少？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:09.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:10.137000+08:00","text":"二七等於十四對不對？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:10.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:12.820000+08:00","text":"在綜合發展基金裡面也沒有看到 14 億啊！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:15.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:24.374000+08:00","text":"所以如果按照他們的邏\n輯，原民會的單位預算編 28.161 億的話，在綜合發展基金應該要看到 14 億，沒有看到！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:24.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:38.788000+08:00","text":"好，所\n以我要講的就是，剛剛主計長說要在綜發基金裡面，真的是違法！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:39.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:39.469000+08:00","text":"他講什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:39.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:45:42.010000+08:00","text":"他說基本法第二\n十一條，他引用第二十一條，他說，盈利所得是可以放在基金裡面的，我沒有意見，但是禁伐\n補償不是盈利所得啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:45:42.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:46:49.314000+08:00","text":"院長，是我們的政府侵害人民權利，這叫做特別犧牲，特別犧牲就必須\n要政府編列預算補償，因此我們才會同意我們兩位原住民立法委員，一個是伍麗華，一個是陳\n瑩，雖然陳瑩是後來才同意的，我們就按照他們兩個人提的 6 萬，我是召委，讓它通過了，那\n通過的過程我們就不要講了，不提覆議案、總統公告都不提了，我要講的是綜合發展基金，根\n據預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，我一直在講凡付出去要收回。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:46:50.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:46:57.961000+08:00","text":"我們的主計長，我在質詢\n他的時候，他說我們的綜合發展基金還有淨值 30 億，大家都知道原住民的綜發基金是付出去貸\n款的，這 30 億都在外面還沒有償還，或者是利息還沒有收入，所以基金裡面根本沒有錢。","quality":0.415},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:47:22.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:47:43.039000+08:00","text":"然後\n我們還可以看到，就是在 111 年行政院主計總處給原民會的函，因為在 111 年 9 月 12 號的時候\n協 10\n，原民會真的受不了了，行文給行政院主計總處，說請撥足原住民族綜合發展基金歷年辦理禁\n伐補償致累計虧損 28.32 億，這是 111 年，已經虧損了 28.32 億。","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:47:43.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:48:05.178000+08:00","text":"今年按照綜發基金應該是虧損\n了 22 億吧，然後我們看主計總處告訴原民會說，原民基金淨值還有 62.1 億，111 年的時候淨值\n還有 62.1 億。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:48:05.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:48:53.157000+08:00","text":"114 年綜發基金現在告訴我們，淨值只有 30 億，所以歷年來都是從這邊出去的，\n而目前這個淨值，我剛剛說是貸款出去還沒有收回的，然後我們的主計總處又說 113年度起由公\n務預算支應禁伐補償經費一節，很顯然原民會也請求主計總處用公務預算來編禁伐補償，考量\n禁伐補償經費逐年增加，為了維持原民基金規模的穩定，相關經費將視基金財務狀況適時協處\n。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:48:53.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:48:54.998000+08:00","text":"111 年的時候已經沒有撥足了，剛剛主計長說現在還要用基金，請問一下，你們什麼時候要撥\n足？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:48:55.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:48:55.138000+08:00","text":"這是剛剛我想問的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:48:55.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:34.716000+08:00","text":"第二個問題不是主計長講的，是蔡易餘書記長跟吳思瑤幹事長提\n的，剛剛國昌總召說的，他們要提下修禁伐補償到 4 萬塊，我想問今天難得出席的兩位民進黨\n的伍麗華跟陳瑩，同不同意下修 4 萬塊？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:35.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:41.337000+08:00","text":"我今天很高興看到他們兩位來了，不然都是我跟鄭天\n財兩個人在發言，謝謝。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:41.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:42.758000+08:00","text":"謝謝高金素梅委員發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:43.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:46.698000+08:00","text":"接下來伍麗華委員之後，有哪一位原住民的委員要發言？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:46.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:46.798000+08:00","text":"請舉手。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:51.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:53.248000+08:00","text":"鄭天財委員要發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:53.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:49:59.110000+08:00","text":"我們現在請伍麗華委員發言，鄭天財委員請準備。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:49:59.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:50:13.156000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：謝謝院長，今天很高興，我一直都想參與協商，但是因為是邀\n請幹部，今天特別開放關心的原民委員來，我在這邊特別要感謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:50:14.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:50:25.401000+08:00","text":"關於禁伐補償，其實我個人\n一直以來有我自己的認知，為什麼我的認知那麼樣的肯定？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:50:26.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:51:16.377000+08:00","text":"第一，我要先跟大家報告，我早在 7\n月初就已經聽到我們的地方政府、地方公所跟我表達，明年度的禁伐補償預算編列真的是 6 萬\n耶，我在 7 月初就已經聽到地方政府跟鄉公所跟我這樣說，所以我特別請他們把那一份公文交\n給我，果然 7月 5日原民會正式行文發函給各縣市政府，告訴他們 114年度各項科目計畫的編列\n，請他們按照那樣去暫估列數，所以我一定要敘明在先。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:51:17.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:51:25.502000+08:00","text":"對地方政府和公所而言，其實並沒有\n這樣的困擾，是後來我們立法院產生這樣的問題，他們反而開始困擾。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:51:25.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:51:59.128000+08:00","text":"第二，我要說明，作為一個原住民族事務的最高行政主管機關，它何以在 7 月初，就是按照\n年度既行的行事曆，要趕快把這樣的一個計畫編列，因為不僅僅是禁伐補償，明年我們有非常\n多的科目預算都等著地方政府要暫估編列，那它為什麼會這樣做，當然就是有依據，它依據什\n麼？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:51:59.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:52:29.432000+08:00","text":"因為過去它看到在 105 年開始發放禁伐補償金的時候，主計總處有發文給原民會，告訴他\n們這個禁伐補償的發放是用公務預算及基金各半編列，如果有不足再予以協處，因為他們從 105\n年接到這個公文，都一直這麼做。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:52:31.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:52:43.217000+08:00","text":"第三，我要說明，大家在爭執的，到底基金能不能支應禁伐補償金，我相信主計總處能夠在\n105 年發文給原民會，這麼說當然也必須有憑有據，它依據的是什麼？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:52:43.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:53:22.276000+08:00","text":"是民國 96 年當時把禁伐\n補償的一個依據，就是土地限制要補償的時候，在那個地方，放入基金的管用辦法第四條的「\n本基金之來源如下」，上面寫著「原住民族土地賠償、補償、收益款、土地資源開發營利所得\n及相關法令規定之提撥款。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:53:25.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:53:31.615000+08:00","text":"」上一次修訂是在民國 93年，但它是在民國 96年 11月 30日修訂進\n來的，當時還沒有禁伐補償金的發放，但是已經有這樣的遠見和規劃。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:53:31.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:53:34.997000+08:00","text":"我也要特別說明，當時\n協 11\n的事務副主任委員是在場的鄭天財委員，也許他等一下可以說明。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:53:35.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:54:17.525000+08:00","text":"綜上，我就要來講，很高興剛才高金委員有提到，我跟您報告，其實我進來立法院的第 2 年\n，在 110 年 12 月我也是聽到原民會官員跟我說：「伍委員，請你去幫忙爭取，一定要把禁伐補\n償金要求全數編在公務預算」。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:54:19.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:54:27.368000+08:00","text":"我當時也聽信了，我也覺得很有道理，所以我兩度質詢主計長\n朱澤民。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:54:28.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:54:38.071000+08:00","text":"結果質詢完之後，我回去研究整個基金到底是什麼東西，我就不堅持了，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:54:38.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:54:46.954000+08:00","text":"因\n為我以為基金真的會發完，我也聽信這樣的話，後來我發現大家的癥結在看不懂什麼叫基金。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:54:48.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:54:55.911000+08:00","text":"基金短絀是指當年度的支出和收入加減所得，是當年度。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:54:56.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:55:04.142000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，原民綜合發展基金向來\n大部分都是放去做貸款。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:55:05.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:55:23.116000+08:00","text":"如果我放出去 50 億的貸款，但是我只有收回 10 萬利息，10 萬的其他\n收入，包括溫泉收入等等，我是短絀了 40億，但我不能說我負債 40億。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:55:23.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:55:37.981000+08:00","text":"但我也看了預算書第 33 頁，我們的基金是要看淨值的，很明顯寫著，113 年 12 月底基金淨值\n還有六十八億多，我也查了，從民國 95 年，歷年主計總處一直撥進原民基金累計已經高達一百\n九十九億多。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:55:51.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:56:03.434000+08:00","text":"所以大家應該都很清楚，基金是發放得出來的，因此原民會也願意、也敢、也覺\n得理所當然，在 7月 5日發出這樣的公文。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:56:04.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:56:08.457000+08:00","text":"時至今日，我不太曉得自己在這裡到底要說什麼！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:56:08.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:56:09.377000+08:00","text":"我不知道我要說什麼！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:56:13.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:56:47.021000+08:00","text":"但是我願意，如果\n大家能夠聽到我講的這番話，對於在外面很辛苦地前來陳抗的族人，我真的希望你們聽到我的\n話，因為這幾個月我很難過，大家為了這件事情到底有沒有，紛爭、對立、人心惶惶，甚至造\n成原住民族群跟全國人民這樣的嫌隙，我於心不忍，因為我不知道從何而來，對我來講莫名其\n妙！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:56:47.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:09.712000+08:00","text":"可是如果要避免未來再發生這樣的糾紛，大家今天是協商、坐下來談，我覺得剛才黃國昌\n委員講的每一句話都很有道理，因為我們就坐在這邊，就基金到底可不可以拿來發，只要能發\n，以後怎麼做、有沒有附帶條件等問題進行討論。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:10.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:22.816000+08:00","text":"我是認為只要未來不要再為這個假議題來爭\n吵，今天坐在這邊，我們很願意來聽聽看怎麼做才好，讓未來就不要再吵了，謝謝。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:22.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:25.712000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝伍麗華。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:25.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:28.608000+08:00","text":"現在我們請鄭天財委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:28.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:30.850000+08:00","text":"下面還有哪一位原住民委員要發言，請舉手。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:31.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:33.533000+08:00","text":"好，盧縣一委員\n請準備。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:57:33.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:40.639000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：院長、各黨團，還有我們行政部門，依法行政……","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:41.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:43.902000+08:00","text":"天財兄，你可不可以稍微大聲一點？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:43.902000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:45.113500+08:00","text":"他喉嚨沙啞。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:57:45.113500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:46.325000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：依法行政……","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:46.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:46.645000+08:00","text":"你可不可以換一個麥克風？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:57.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:58.913000+08:00","text":"拿兩個麥克風，沒關係。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:58.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:57:59.913000+08:00","text":"他喉嚨沙啞。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T15:57:58.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:00.974000+08:00","text":"拿兩支麥克風，沒關係、沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:00.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:01.974000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：好。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:00.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:18.264000+08:00","text":"依法行政是最基本的，我沒有想到對原住民族而言，只有 15億的不\n足，我們竟然要開這麼多次的協商會議，成為原住民族最卑微的懇求。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:19.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:21.006000+08:00","text":"這個上次我也有講過。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:21.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:34.365000+08:00","text":"原住民因為這樣的議題造成分裂，我非常、非常的難過！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:34.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:58:58.015000+08:00","text":"行政院既然沒有依憲法提出覆議，就\n協 12\n表示沒有窒礙難行，就應該要依法編列預算，但就是少編了 15 億的經費！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:58:58.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:01.136000+08:00","text":"所以希望趕快、今天\n能夠完成。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:04.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:23.677000+08:00","text":"韓院長在主持禁伐補償條例相關會議的時候，我要再重申，上次我也提過，行政部門包括當\n時的行政院副主計長、包括原民會的主任委員都沒有提到 4 萬塊。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:23.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:25.978000+08:00","text":"都沒有提到 4 萬塊！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:25.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:28.339000+08:00","text":"議事錄\n都有、會議紀錄都有！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:29.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:31.480000+08:00","text":"所以後來就表決。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:31.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T15:59:35.702000+08:00","text":"既然通過了，也沒有覆議，就應該要依法行政。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T15:59:37.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:00:01.697000+08:00","text":"我們一直糾結在原住民族綜合發展基金，原住民族基本法第十八條規定得很清楚，該條文前\n段講的是用途，用途就是做為發展經濟之用，也就是要辦理經濟事業貸款、微型貸款、創業貸\n款。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:00:03.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:00:32.833000+08:00","text":"而且預算法第四條，這個不是我寫的，是行政院送來的預算書寫的、預算法明定的，預算\n書寫得很清楚：「本基金係依預算法第 4 條第 2 項第 2 款第 4 目所定，凡付出仍可收回……」\n。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:00:34.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:00:34.715000+08:00","text":"很清楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:00:36.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:00:36.997000+08:00","text":"這個就是什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:00:38.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:00:49.357000+08:00","text":"就像貸款，付出去，本金可以收回來、利息可以收回來，而禁伐\n補償是不可以的，收不回來的！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:00:51.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:01:16.969000+08:00","text":"主計長一直在引用原基法第十八條的後段，是講基金的來源，\n如果我們回到基金管理應用辦法，基金的來源，第一款是循政府預算的收入，撥入進去，就是\n要公務預算撥到基金，可以！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:01:19.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:01:22.411000+08:00","text":"另一款原住民族土地的賠償、補償，我查過都沒有啦！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:01:30.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:01:47.195000+08:00","text":"譬如今年\n度的 21 億公務預算的撥入，那個是收支管理辦法的第一款，是公務預算的撥入，不是補償的收\n入、不是補償款，這個非常的明確。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:01:47.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:02:08.772000+08:00","text":"也就是因為有這樣的一個規定，所以才會在第 9 屆的立法\n院通過了預算案的主決議，預算案的主決議就是措施性的法律。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:02:11.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:02:47.605000+08:00","text":"第 9 屆大家都很清楚，民進黨\n是絕對多數，預算案的主決議，那時候大家都無異議通過，這個決議就是寫得很清楚，過去從\n106 年開始動支原住民族綜合發展基金撥付到禁伐補償，是違反原基法、違反預算法，應該要返\n還。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:02:47.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:02:57.591000+08:00","text":"這個是第 9屆第 2會期第 17次會議的一個決議。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:02:58.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:03:35.683000+08:00","text":"接下來，剛才我們伍麗華特別提到 113 年的文，他一直引用這個文，113 年 7 月原民會的公文\n，我跟他報告，這個是所有各部會要補助給地方政府的，每一年都在 6 月、7 月的時候就要發文\n，請各地方政府預為編列明年我要補助給你的錢，那時候很清楚。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:03:38.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:02.534000+08:00","text":"以今年來講，113 年 7 月行政\n院的預算案，行政院會都還沒有通過，8 月 31 日以前送來，8 月中旬之後才行政院院會通過，\n這是長年、一百多年來的慣例，這是第一個。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:02.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:14.977000+08:00","text":"第二，請伍委員看清楚，我本來不想講，既然你\n說了，我還是說，請你看清楚，這個金額是多少呢？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:17.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:19.106000+08:00","text":"看公文要看清楚，你有寫啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:22.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:27.793000+08:00","text":"113 年 7 月原\n民會的公文，你寫得很大，禁伐補償多少錢呢？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:27.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:44.005000+08:00","text":"19億 8,144萬 5,544元，19億怎麼能……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：主席，我怕錯誤的資訊，那是屏東縣的分配額，不是全國。","quality":0.491},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:44.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:45.365500+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不是，全部的！","quality":0.278},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:45.365500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:46.726000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：那是屏東縣的。","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:04:46.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:49.848000+08:00","text":"我提醒一下，發言的時候，徵詢一下主席同意，謝謝。請。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:49.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:51.209000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這是全部的……","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:04:51.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:56.712000+08:00","text":"天財兄，你稍微再大聲一點，你現在搞得變懸疑片了，再大聲一點。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:04:56.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:04:58.133000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這個是全部的！","quality":0.316},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:05:02.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:05:03.964000+08:00","text":"怎麼可能屏東就 19億呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:05:04.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:05:05.826000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:05:05.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:05:09.110000+08:00","text":"這是全部的，我也有\n那張公文。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:05:11.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:05:32.521000+08:00","text":"接下來，我再次讓……\n因為他們都比較不知道我是老公務員，柯建銘總召第一次協商的時候，我也訝異他知道，他\n協 13\n竟然知道，我很感佩，我那天也說謝謝他。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:05:34.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:05:57.672000+08:00","text":"民國 82 年臺灣省政府，我在服務的時候，就以要點\n來訂定禁伐補償，那時候 1 公頃就是 2 萬塊，現在已經三十幾年了，所以我們現在已經訂了條\n例。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:06:02.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:06:29.331000+08:00","text":"105 年確實沒有錯，馬英九執政的最後一年，104 年 8 月 31 號送來的預算書有包含公務預\n算跟基金，這是事實，所以我當時感謝毛治國院長，因為法律還沒有通過。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:06:29.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:06:42.620000+08:00","text":"禁伐補償條例是 104\n年 12 月底通過的，但是 104 年 8 月 31 號就先編了預算，所以我質詢的時候感謝他。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:06:44.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:06:58.945000+08:00","text":"不過我也\n特別跟毛治國院長說，用基金是不可以的，我把它姑且認為「代為墊付」，還是要返還，這議\n事錄全部都在。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:07:03.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:07:34.646000+08:00","text":"105 年當年雖然編了基金但並沒有動用到基金，全數都是公務預算，從 106 年就\n開始動用到基金，所以才會有第 9屆立法院的主決議，這部分是一個很重要的爭點。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:07:34.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:08:06.276000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才伍麗華委員也提了他有質詢，他確實有質詢，他跟我一樣都不斷地質詢，不可以\n再用綜合發展基金，所以今年 113 年度的 21 億全部都是公務預算，沒有編列原住民族綜合發展\n基金，這個預算書都很清楚。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:08:07.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:08:25.890000+08:00","text":"所以本席要特別拜託行政院，尤其是主計長能夠……我們才 15 億\n而已，我們可以用第二預備金，也可以修正預算。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:08:26.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:08:58.726000+08:00","text":"我也講過，民國 100 年 12 月 5 號行政院依立\n法院 100 年 12 月 2 號的決議，當時吳敦義院長依立法院 100 年 12 月 2 號的決議，3 天之內在\n100 年 12 月 5 號就修正了 101 年度的預算，修正增加了多少呢？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:08:59.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:09:00.627000+08:00","text":"一百六十幾億啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:09:01.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:09:13.778000+08:00","text":"我們只不過\n是 15 億，所以這部分其實是非常容易解決的，怎麼還要弄到韓院長召開 3 次協商？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:09:15.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:09:23.724000+08:00","text":"所以這個部\n分我要特別再次地懇求行政院要依法行政。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-10-24T16:09:24.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:09:31.220000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:09:31.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:09:35.422000+08:00","text":"我知道，我不是要發言、舉手、插話，我只是有一個跟院長的請求。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:09:35.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:01.819000+08:00","text":"因為我們剛剛講了建議，因為院長很辛苦，大家如果有些概念沒有釐清，我們繼續講還\n是會開花，所以我想請求院長可以裁示在盧委員發言之前或之後，可以就剛剛很多委員提到的\n「淨值」、「貸款」這些，請主計……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：還有那個「凡經付出仍可收回」。","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:02.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:03.621000+08:00","text":"會，等一下主計長會再一次說明。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:04.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:18.574000+08:00","text":"但我是建議，是不是可以在我發言之前先說明，不然我覺得這個概念不清楚，再繼續講\n大家也沒有交集，這是我替院長著想的建議，希望你不要那麼辛苦。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:18.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:22.235000+08:00","text":"謝謝，也先謝謝剛才的老公務員鄭天財委員的發言。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:23.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:36.662000+08:00","text":"我的想法是幫大家想，因為各位原住民委員都非常關切這個案子，所以我的想法也是幫你們\n想，讓你們先發言一輪之後，我就請主計長說明，主計長說明之後，3 個黨團幹部一定有其他的\n意見補強。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:38.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:43.805000+08:00","text":"關於原住民委員大家都非常關切，這樣就有一個可以把自己的想法講出來的機會，\n這是我幫大家想的。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:44.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:45.986000+08:00","text":"陳瑩委員，這樣你能瞭解我的想法嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:45.986000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:47.672000+08:00","text":"我希望在我發言之前……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:47.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:49.358000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我們先請盧縣一委員發言，張嘉郡委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:49.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:10:49.478000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:10:49.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:11:11.814000+08:00","text":"我聽完三位我們原民立委的說法以後，我很像在上主計課，我都變成主計\n協 14\n人才了，可是今天全國各地原住民要聽的不是主計課，也不是要去知道這個緣由。","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:11:11.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:11:30.579000+08:00","text":"大家都很聰\n明、大家也都知道、大家也都識字，6 月 24 日公告到現在已經 4 個月了，大家擔心的就是沒有\n依法編列這個事實，還有我們行政院長又常常會說「惡例不可開」，這樣我們原住民要怎麼相\n信你們有誠意？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:11:32.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:11:37.821000+08:00","text":"而且民進黨常常說我們重視人權、重視公平正義，站在原住民這邊。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:11:39.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:11:40.516000+08:00","text":"這樣有沒\n有覺得很可笑？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:11:42.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:11:46.559000+08:00","text":"我們只要知道我們的 15 億要不要編足而已，就那麼簡單的問題！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:11:48.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:08.243000+08:00","text":"可是你們一直\n要講理論基礎，還有到現在我們聯合國對原住民族的看法，甚至我們憲法的原則，你們一直說\n財政紀律法、預算法、違憲的問題，可是我們憲法增修條文第十條第十二項不是也在保障我們\n原住民嗎？","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:08.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:10.784000+08:00","text":"當憲法和憲法比較的時候，是哪一個比較優先？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:12.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:15.105000+08:00","text":"不是只有你們有憲法保障，我們也\n是有憲法保障的！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:16.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:21.046000+08:00","text":"你們每次都說財政紀律法、預算法，可是那個和這個有關係嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:21.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:22.166000+08:00","text":"希望你拿一\n點良心！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:23.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:25.227000+08:00","text":"還有一直說惡例不可開，哪裡來的惡例？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"盧委員縣一","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:25.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:31.790000+08:00","text":"6 萬元只是基本的綠色存底而已，我們還要講\n涵養水源的、國土保安的這些 budget，這些成本都沒有算進去，只是要基本的公平正義而已，所\n以希望大家能夠多理解我們原住民的需求，謝謝。","quality":0.165},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:31.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:38.353000+08:00","text":"謝謝盧縣一委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:38.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:44.916000+08:00","text":"張嘉郡委員，你是要講公糧收購，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:44.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:51.479000+08:00","text":"對不起，因為我們現在還沒有到那一案，我知道張嘉郡委員很關心公糧收購，但是我現在不\n能讓你發言，因為我們現在全部在談禁伐補償這邊，好嗎？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:51.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:12:58.042000+08:00","text":"好，等他們講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:12:58.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:01.150000+08:00","text":"不是，等到公糧收購，再請你發言，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:01.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:02.894000+08:00","text":"張嘉郡委員一定是為這個事情，他很關心。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:04.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:06.803000+08:00","text":"現在在陳瑩委員發言之前，請主計長能不能再說明一下？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:07.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:07.123000+08:00","text":"謝謝，請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:10.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:31.695000+08:00","text":"其實我們剛剛談到原住民族基本法第十八條，它有一個基金來源，那一個來源就是\n公庫的撥入款，我們整個支出的執行是在基金執行，基金有一個作用就是如果編列不足，它可\n以超支併決算。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:33.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:13:50.046000+08:00","text":"超支併決算的部分和公庫之間的算法就是本來公庫應該撥你 30 億，但是現在你\n超過了，有 32 億，將來這個部分，我在下一年度來撥補，所以它會有一個收入來源，它也有一\n個支出。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T16:13:51.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:24.581000+08:00","text":"我們本來就是建議，你要看這個基金有沒有賸餘款，到今年為止它還有 30 億的賸餘款\n，如果這個基金超支，本來是 4 萬的額度，超過到 6 萬這個額度，我用併支出來處理，支出併\n決算處理之後，將來不夠的款項，我在 115年編列預算，國庫來撥補回來，也是它的一個財源，\n所以它也是以一個支出，有一個收入在收回，所以我這樣說明。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:24.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:25.282000+08:00","text":"以上補充。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:26.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:27.964000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳主計長補充說明。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:29.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:30.347000+08:00","text":"等一下陳瑩委員發言完畢，還有沒有其他委員要發言？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:30.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:35.994000+08:00","text":"林倩綺委員要發言，黨團幹部請稍微等一下，我先讓原住民委員儘量有一輪的表達意見。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:35.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:36.835000+08:00","text":"請陳瑩委員發言，林倩綺委員請準備。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:40.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:41.169000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:41.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:14:49.897000+08:00","text":"我在這裡首先要重申我的立場，因為我是提案人，我主張禁伐補償要 6萬元\n。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:14:50.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:15:13.830000+08:00","text":"我想剛剛盧縣一委員有提到，我們原住民很關心怎麼編列，但我想他們會更關心到他們手上\n的是不是每公頃 6 萬元，至於怎麼編列，這個功課似乎在立法院大家比較關心，也比較清楚整\n個預算的編列方式。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:15:17.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:15:25.453000+08:00","text":"剛剛前面也有委員提到，就是有附帶的下修 4 萬元這件事，不好意思！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:15:25.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:16:01.509000+08:00","text":"我\n協 15\n是沒有聽說過，我剛剛問了伍麗華委員，他也沒聽說過，我又問了黨團幹部，這個應該是有點\n片面擷取，如果未來公務預算要修，它也有可能是往上修，調整是可能往上調，也可能往下調\n，所以大家不要自己嚇自己，或者我們又去嚇很多的原住民，傳來傳去變成下修 4 萬塊這件事\n情，我想在這邊先澄清這個。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:16:01.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:16:11.900000+08:00","text":"但是我就是堅持，我們這次修法，我提案就是 6 萬元，未來你說\n如果真要下修，我也不會同意啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:16:13.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:16:14.523000+08:00","text":"這是我的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:16:14.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:16:30.453000+08:00","text":"再來，也要按照院長的要求，我們儘量不要去重複前面有其他委員講過的，剛剛伍麗華委員\n也講得非常好了，我就不要再重複，我就針對基金的部分做一個補充。","quality":0.092},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:16:30.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:16:46.383000+08:00","text":"主計長也再三的強調，\n我想 2 萬元的部分以基金運用，把它湊足 6 萬元，這個部分是合法的，基金也不會破產，按照\n主計長解釋的撥補方式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:16:46.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:17:24.986000+08:00","text":"這邊我要補充的是，過去有委員提案，建議把基金規定改為總額不得\n低於 100 億元，而且要比照離島建設基金及花東基金這樣的提案。","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:17:25.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:18:03.367000+08:00","text":"如果這樣的提案通過，才有\n可能導致基金破產，因為它的差別在於，這個離島建設基金的規模就定在 300 億，法律規定定\n在 300 億，它是固定的，然後分十年撥補，所以如果撥完、用完之後，政府就不會再挹注基金\n，除非大家再來修法；花東基金也一樣，規模是 400 億，也是固定的，分十年撥補，也是撥補\n完之後，政府就不會再挹注基金，你如果還要再要，我們又要再重來一次，又要再修法。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:18:04.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:18:43.228000+08:00","text":"所以原住民的綜合發展基金按照主計長再三的解釋，它就是會一直撥補，如果今天我們這個\n提案，按照這樣修法，比照離島建設基金跟花東基金，總額固定之後，那撥補完、用完就沒有\n了，用這樣的方式，我們的綜合發展基金才有可能破產，所以這個部分我就在這裡提出補充說\n明。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:18:45.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:19:00.937000+08:00","text":"另外，我要在這邊跟各位提出一個請求跟建議，其實這一次的修法，這麼長的時間我覺得大\n家都很煎熬，我們的族人、我們的選民其實也都非常的焦慮，相信在座的委員為了這件事情晚\n上睡不好覺的都是有的，像我自己就是。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:19:00.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:19:19.105000+08:00","text":"我希望未來是不是有怎樣的措施跟機制，我們把這件\n事情看怎麼處理，大家以後不要每年都在吵這件事情，就是一下子吵公務預算一定要編多少，\n或者是這個基金到底合不合法、能不能撥，大家吵來吵去，然後每個人一顆心懸在那邊，這不\n是一個很好的現象。","quality":0.114},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:19:19.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:20:05.788000+08:00","text":"而且最糟糕的現象就是原住民的議題，還有我們很多原住民被推到浪尖上\n，最後變成好像一個政治議題在操作，我覺得這個是我非常不樂見的事情。","quality":0.525},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:20:06.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:20:28.995000+08:00","text":"所以今天藉著這個\n協商，我也跟外面的族人說一聲，大家辛苦了，注意保暖，我覺得其實今天大家根本不用擔心\n，這樣一輪聽完，其實大家明年就是會領到 6 萬塊錢的禁伐補償，無論是不是公務預算加基金\n，反正總額就是 6 萬元。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-10-24T16:20:29.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:20:56.916000+08:00","text":"我想今天如果大家不要再繼續堅持 6 萬元我們一定要全部用公務預算\n來編列的話，那我想大家可以更快速的通過總預算，然後我們大家可以領到禁伐補償，以上，\n謝謝。","quality":0.559},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:20:56.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:20:57.136000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳瑩委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:20:57.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:20:58.338000+08:00","text":"接下來林倩綺委員請發言。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:21:04.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:21:07.344000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，各位立院同仁，大家好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:21:09.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:21:23.194000+08:00","text":"剛才幾輪的發言，我們也聽到這個事情來龍去脈\n的一個交代，我想細節的部分，大家應該都滿清楚的，各自依據大家所認為的法條來解釋這件\n事。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:21:24.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:21:52.961000+08:00","text":"但是在發言當中，我聽到幾位原住民委員的發言，包括我自己，心裡是非常的傷痛，我覺\n協 16\n得我們原住民在這件事情上感覺很卑微，在這樣一個體制下，好像感覺……我不想講出那個字\n，但是我用盧委員曾經在一次質詢裡面講的，我們原住民沒有「乞丐」這個概念。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:21:55.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:22:20.486000+08:00","text":"他剛才也提\n到，幾件事情我講比較清楚一點，兩位民進黨原住民的委員，我們都為原住民的事務在努力推\n動，但是我不希望因為政黨而讓我們裂解，這是我最主要的觀點，我也不希望我們在這樣一個\n體制下，感覺非常的卑微。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:22:21.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:22:34.920000+08:00","text":"剛才大家都交代過了，所以在今天的協商，我們很務實的在這個體制跟這樣的方式上，我來\n討論幾個問題。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:22:34.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:22:47.968000+08:00","text":"第一個是，很感謝伍麗華委員在地方上有確定中央發了函，把這個暫估列數讓\n族人知道可以領到這樣的錢。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:22:47.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:02.037000+08:00","text":"但是我們今天在這邊，不就是在確定，一個法治的流程，讓族人\n還有我們的人民能夠把應領到的錢領得很驕傲嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:03.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:14.420000+08:00","text":"我們是配合國家政策，我們配合國家政策犧\n牲自己的權益，我們有需要這麼卑微的拿到這個錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:14.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:22.282000+08:00","text":"我們有需要這麼懼怕的擔心這個錢會不\n會如數給我們嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:22.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:25.283000+08:00","text":"這不是我們現在在這邊做的事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:25.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:31.165000+08:00","text":"我們要做的就是，我們必須在這個體制\n裡面，把每一件事情確認清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:32.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:23:42.388000+08:00","text":"這一次我們發現的是，公務預算裡面，我們看不到跟它等同的\n錢被編在裡面，這不就是我們在看預算的時候發現的問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:23:42.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:02.015000+08:00","text":"在這個過程當中，我還發現一件\n令我更訝異的事，就是大家一直在討論基金，我想呼應盧委員，我們不用在這邊上這些課，剛\n才大家已經都交代得很清楚了，如果想繼續上這個課，那就來看立法院的片子。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:03.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:27.601000+08:00","text":"我想要問一個重點就是，其實我以前在新北市，曾經跟中央推動過原住民的事務，當時的基\n金大概也有將近 100 億，我很訝異的是，我們發現公務預算沒有編足禁伐補償的過程當中，用\n的竟然是基金，而且離我當時的印象，到現在竟然已經是負的！","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:28.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:32.806000+08:00","text":"剛才也很感謝陳瑩委員讓主計\n長先把事情交代清楚……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:32.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:33.806000+08:00","text":"短絀沒有負的，短絀不是負的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:33.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:34.806000+08:00","text":"已經負了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:34.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:35.806000+08:00","text":"OK，我們就讓……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:35.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:36.806000+08:00","text":"我們尊重發言委員，沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:36.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:37.806000+08:00","text":"我們尊重發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:37.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:38.806000+08:00","text":"倩綺委員請繼續。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:38.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:39.806000+08:00","text":"剛才主計長一直告訴我們說，以後會撥足、以後會撥足，然後現在這個錢沒有\n問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:35.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:36.382000+08:00","text":"我想請教的一件事情是，不好意思，如果是這樣，請問我們今天在這邊協商什麼？","quality":0.406},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:58.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:24:59.969000+08:00","text":"請問\n我們在協商什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:24:59.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:00.389000+08:00","text":"錢在哪裡啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:01.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:01.490000+08:00","text":"確定嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:03.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:04.151000+08:00","text":"這是第一個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:04.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:10.214000+08:00","text":"第二個，因為剛才主計長一直說，國庫\n會撥補，這個叫「會撥補」啊！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:11.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:13.336000+08:00","text":"可是現在是多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:13.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:15.277000+08:00","text":"短絀多少錢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:15.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:26.279000+08:00","text":"剛才每一位委員都交代得非\n常清楚，鄭委員其實講得非常清楚，所以主計長，你要不要告訴我們國庫怎麼撥補？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:26.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:27.120000+08:00","text":"今年怎麼\n處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:27.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:28.723000+08:00","text":"未來怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:29.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:40.246000+08:00","text":"你前面那幾年是怎麼處理的，為什麼我們所知道的這樣基金的總額，一\n直到現在竟然是短絀了？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:40.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:44.470000+08:00","text":"好，你們要用什麼名詞都沒有關係，就是族人聽得懂的、大家聽得懂的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:44.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:25:50.857000+08:00","text":"所以重點是，您剛\n才說國庫要撥補，你們都一直說這個沒有問題，可是我一直沒有聽出來，你到底要怎麼做？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:25:51.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:26:09.763000+08:00","text":"剛\n才高金委員其實交代的非常清楚，他說公務預算跟基金對不出來，好不容易他已經把數額都對\n得非常清楚了，但是我從主計長的回應裡面沒有聽到究竟你們要怎麼做、現在是什麼狀況？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:26:09.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:26:12.605000+08:00","text":"您\n一直告訴我們行政上的處理，我們還要再上行政課？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:26:14.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:26:18.237000+08:00","text":"如果這個部分能夠很清楚，我們協商可能\n還會有一個結果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:26:19.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:26:34.149000+08:00","text":"協 17\n很感謝陳瑩委員談到花東基金，花東基金沒有原住民基金預算法第四條的這個區塊，您剛才\n類比的這個部分，或許可以在行政上再確認清楚。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:26:35.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:26:53.351000+08:00","text":"對族人而言，我們需要把這個錢給領到而且\n確定；對所有的人而言，我們依法行政，無論怎麼挪、怎麼來，你們就是不要阻擋到我們的權\n益，這就是一個很基礎的概念而已。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:26:53.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:02.457000+08:00","text":"你們大可以用許多的語彙、很多的行政專業口吻來跟族人\n說，但重點就是我們需要這麼卑微的要這個錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:02.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:04.058000+08:00","text":"我們配合了國家的發展，需要這麼卑微嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:11.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:23.521000+08:00","text":"我呼籲原住民的委員跟原住民，我們不要被這樣的體制給裂解，我們沒有這樣的空間，謝謝。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:24.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:24.722000+08:00","text":"謝謝林倩綺委員的發言。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:24.722000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:25.869333+08:00","text":"我想院外有很多原住民的朋友，立法院不分黨派、不分族群、不分地域，都很關心原住民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:25.869333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:27.016667+08:00","text":"這個案子我們已經多次協商，特別是林倩綺委員剛剛提到的這個，我們都很關心，也都很愛原\n住民朋友，這是超越黨派的，這一點請原住民朋友信任，每個委員都非常關切，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:27.016667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:28.164000+08:00","text":"我們\n希望大家心情上能夠平靜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:28.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:27:29.165000+08:00","text":"我們休息 10分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:27:29.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:01.909000+08:00","text":"休息（16時 27分）\n繼續開會（16時 52分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:01.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:05.751000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，也謝謝各位列席官員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:06.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:10.153000+08:00","text":"現在林思銘書記長請求發言，請簡短扼要。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:14.835000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長請準備。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:14.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:15.835000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，大家辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:15.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:22.398000+08:00","text":"今天的主題，除了禁伐補償以外，還有對於農民權益的保障\n，就是公糧收購提高到 5 塊的部分。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:24.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:32.585000+08:00","text":"雲林的張嘉郡委員也到場了，還有張啓楷委員也到場了，\n還有丁學忠委員，他們都很關心這個議題。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:33.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:40.132000+08:00","text":"我們認為這個議題也是在今天協商的內容裡面，所\n以請院長讓幾位委員來發言，針對這個議題。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:40.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:41.132000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:40.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:40.873000+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長的發言。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:40.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:52:41.433000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:52:41.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:53:03.767000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我想就程序上表達我的意見，因為我不知道……因為今天在這個場合，應\n當就是討論總預算要不要進入審查，然後院長總需要來備詢，以及後續排定審查的時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:53:03.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:53:12.133000+08:00","text":"今天\n朝野協商各黨黨鞭在這裡，應當解決 3 兆總預算的排審問題。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:53:12.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:53:15.996000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛花了一個多小時、將近\n兩個小時在討論單一個、應當在內政委員會討論的原住民族預算編列問題，已經花了這麼多的\n時間。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:53:15.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:53:47.013000+08:00","text":"當然我尊重主席的裁示，如果接下來，我們要針對公糧收購討論，也理應要在總預算付\n委審查之後，在經濟委員會可以問好、問飽、問滿，可以就事論事。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:53:47.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:53:54.799000+08:00","text":"我不曉得現在如果公糧收\n購要繼續講，是不是等一下衛環委員會的委員又來講健保點值？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:53:55.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:54:05.827000+08:00","text":"那又把應當在衛環委員會討論\n的環境部預算，拉到今天要討論 3 兆總預算的現場。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:54:05.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:54:15.594000+08:00","text":"這樣子下去，我覺得都完全……我們非常\n尊重大家發言的機會，但是相關發言、相關議題都應當回到相關的委員會，所以我們要面對的\n是，如果 3 兆的總預算沒有辦法往前推進，依程序就應當進入行政院長率領相關部會在院會進\n行總預算的詢答。","quality":0.469},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:54:15.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:54:42.198000+08:00","text":"事實上也許等會兒嘉郡委員、啓楷委員要討論的議題，也都可以在預算質詢\n的時候，要求行政院卓院長來回答。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:54:42.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:02.225000+08:00","text":"這個都是既定的程序，而不是在今天我們希望總預算能夠\n解套、交付審查的這個協商會議上，進行個別、單項預算的討論，因為時間是大家的，在相關\n協 18\n對的場域討論對的事情，這是我們的期待。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:03.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:13.048000+08:00","text":"我另外也要說，3 兆的總預算如果持續沒有辦法往前\n推進，明天可能是第 6 次來決定它能不能夠順利審查。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:14.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:15.208000+08:00","text":"又有颱風要來了，新增的 159 億的治水\n預算在新年度能不能夠被支用呢？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:16.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:22.350000+08:00","text":"這幾天，共軍不斷的將軍演常態化，如果擋下了總預算不審\n，我們的國防預算也可能就沒有辦法在新年度被執行了，這樣子國家防衛能力的中空，誰會開\n心呢？","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:22.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:27.509667+08:00","text":"可能我們的敵對國家會開心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:27.509667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:32.669333+08:00","text":"今天我知道場外……剛剛嘉郡委員爭取要發言，因為她說場外有農民朋友，她想對場外的農\n民朋友講話。","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:32.669333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:55:37.829000+08:00","text":"不是因為他們在外面，是因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:55:37.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:56:20.596000+08:00","text":"好，我也知道場外有很多的醫護人員，如果說總預算沒有辦法交付審查，我們有 60\n億的健康臺灣深耕計畫，這要做長照的；我們有 50 億的癌症新藥暫時性的支付預算沒有辦法支\n應，這是要照顧癌症病友的；如果總預算沒有辦法交付審查，我們有高達 68.85 億攸關護理人力\n待遇協助的中長程計畫就沒有辦法做。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:56:20.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T16:56:41.779000+08:00","text":"今天在場有這麼多國家的棟樑們，就是維持國家運作前\n進的公務夥伴們，我們公務人員新年度 3%的加薪，沒有辦法發到他們的手上。","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:56:41.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:57:24.901000+08:00","text":"我知道原住民族\n的朋友們很多在偏鄉，我們對於新年度的新興計畫裡頭，偏遠地區不管是道路、教育的設施，\n數十億省道改善的計畫，來自農業縣的朋友，省道改善的計畫、道路改善新興計畫有 104.55 億\n，如果今天沒有辦法再往前推進，我剛剛說的這些預算都沒有辦法在新年度被執行，所以我們\n關切原住民族的委員們、關切所謂長期我們這片土地最溫暖的力量，即我們族人朋友的權益；\n同樣的，我們也要兼顧全體國人的權益。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:57:27.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:57:59.136000+08:00","text":"我很遺憾的說，我的選區在臺北市山區最多的地區，我現在人坐在這裡協商，我的服務團隊\n告訴我，他們正要前往陽金公路，今天因為雨來，陽金公路又坍方了，現在正要針對防災這些\n東西來啟動，大家有各自的選民要服務，我們不要讓政府總預算沒有辦法前進。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:57:59.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:58:14.565000+08:00","text":"我坐在這裡、\n我作為黨鞭，我何其的焦急，我的選區陽金公路現在整個坍方中斷，我們需要防災、治水，請\n不要繼續以單一課題來影響總預算的交付審查。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:58:15.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:58:45.405000+08:00","text":"希望內政委員會的委員足夠專業，可以針對禁\n伐補償的政策找出解方；我們相信經濟委員會的委員足夠理性，可以解決共商出公糧收購後續\n的預算執行問題；我們更相信，衛環委員會的委員，大家都有經驗、資深，能夠針對健保點值\n的事務，在審議預算的期間表達方法。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:58:46.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:58:51.735000+08:00","text":"所以再次懇求，等一下主席也許有一些預擬的裁示……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T16:58:53.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:59:01.439000+08:00","text":"但是這麼重要的預擬裁示，我們希望是針對總預算後續進行的時程來做進一步的討論\n。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:59:01.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:59:12.903000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的提醒，三位立法委員為了農民的公糧收購也在這邊坐鎮，我想我們\n簡短扼要的說明，好嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T16:59:12.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:59:15.744000+08:00","text":"首先請張嘉郡委員發言，請丁學忠委員準備。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T16:59:17.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T16:59:38.331000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長主持協商，呼應一下吳思瑤委員，其實今天的開會事由是有關於中央政府總\n預算案，不只是國民黨，還有民眾黨，我們提出的三樣訴求，第一個是原民、第二個是公糧收\n購價格提高、第三個是健保點值 0.95，我想這三個議題都必須要受到重視跟討論，我們才有辦\n法往前推進。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T16:59:38.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:18.935000+08:00","text":"我想要講的是，農業部完全是裝蒜，公糧收購價格提高這件事情這麼明確，他卻\n協 19\n一直講「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」這個新名詞來包裝農業部已經行之有年、10 年以上的政策，既然\n已經實施 10 年以上，而且也沒有辦法取代公糧收購制度，那就代表公糧收購制度有其存在的必\n要性。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:20.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:21.658000+08:00","text":"假設他講的「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」有效的話，他說已經有效了，甚至一年會提高 1 元。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:21.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:22.598000+08:00","text":"對此\n，我也主動在經濟委員會質詢了陳駿季部長，我說你有辦法保證這個實施下去，一年真的會漲 1\n元嗎？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:44.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:47.318000+08:00","text":"如果不能漲 1 元，你可以下臺負責嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:47.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:47.498000+08:00","text":"他說他不敢保證。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:47.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:00:48.559000+08:00","text":"所以他就是把農民當實驗品，\n為什麼不能好好的落實照顧這些農民呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:00:48.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:01:21.373000+08:00","text":"他又說因為要集中擴大產量，但我認為他的「1 集、2\n轉、3 加 3」照顧的都是大農，而我們的公糧收購制度是照顧老農、小農，所以我覺得兩者應該\n可以並行，而不是一味地說不願意推動公糧收購價格提高。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:01:21.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:01:37.024000+08:00","text":"而且如果以去年收購 29.1 萬噸的量\n來計算的話，不要說提高 5 元，提高 8 元也只增加 23 億；就算 2012 年那一年種了 45.6 萬噸，\n也只增加 36 億，哪裡來的 100 億呢？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:01:37.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:01:37.365000+08:00","text":"請不要危言聳聽！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:01:37.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:01:56.520000+08:00","text":"何況公糧收購是有限制的，並不是毫無\n限制的收購，甚至我覺得公糧收購價格提高，才有助於民糧價格也提高。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:01:57.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:02:03.062000+08:00","text":"最近我除了訪視農民之外，也訪視了很多糧商，我詢問他們是否反對公糧收購價格提高？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:02:03.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:02:13.385000+08:00","text":"糧\n商很意外地表示了意見，他們認為，假設公糧收購價格不提高，他們也收不到糧，因為越來越\n少農民種稻，所以他們支持公糧收購價格提高，讓他們可以更好的去收到糧食。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:02:13.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:02:30.132000+08:00","text":"再進一步說，\n為什麼這麼多年在這個「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」新名詞的包裝下，還是有這麼多農民種水稻？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:02:30.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:02.814000+08:00","text":"有\n一個原因是很多年老弱勢的農民，他們幾十年來就只會種水稻，你要他們轉作，就是逼迫他們\n老年轉業；提高公糧收購補助主要就是在照顧這些比較弱勢的農民，他們沒有成本做溫室，也\n沒有技術去種一些新的作物，他們只會種稻。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:03.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:11.078000+08:00","text":"所以我不能理解，農業部的主旨應該要照顧農民，而不是講求績效、講求理想！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:11.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:15.200000+08:00","text":"你們一再地\n講「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」，那你就站出來嘛！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:15.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.362000+08:00","text":"農業部就站出來說我就是不願意照顧這些農民，\n我就是不願意照顧這些老農，不要再找理由講什麼違反財政紀律法，難道過去調漲的那兩次都\n是違法的囉！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.722000+08:00","text":"陳水扁時代漲的時候是違法嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.942000+08:00","text":"馬英九時代漲的時候是違法嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:17.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:18.462000+08:00","text":"農業部為什麼不\n願意面對，只要他們願意就可以編列進去？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:18.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:03:57.485000+08:00","text":"更甚者，他說這個「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」以他的計\n算公式，兩個大概差了 50億，但真正的計算方式其實應該不用 50億，可能 20億、30億就可以\n，就是他不願意嘛！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:03:58.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:05.748000+08:00","text":"否則就請卓院長大聲站出來說不願意支持公糧收購價格提高，不要再講一\n些虛無飄渺的理由，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:05.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:12.092000+08:00","text":"接著請丁學忠委員發言，張啓楷委員請準備，麻煩簡短扼要，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:12.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:12.973000+08:00","text":"謝謝，感謝院長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:25.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:30.192000+08:00","text":"我們知道這次總預算退回重編的用意是因為禁伐補償經費沒有編列\n進去，公糧價格調漲 5 元也沒有編列進去，以及健保點數也沒有編列，這些都是經過我們立法\n院、大院通過的法案。","quality":0.351},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:30.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:53.820000+08:00","text":"其實我跑基層時，常常遇到一些農民長輩，他們知道立法院已經通過公\n糧收購價格調漲 5 元，為什麼行政院沒有要編？","quality":0.617},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:53.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:04:54.180000+08:00","text":"用意是什麼？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:04:54.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:05:12.508000+08:00","text":"他們大家都在叫，說肥料也漲價\n、農藥也漲價、工資也漲價，什麼都漲，但公糧價格卻是 13 年來都漲不起來。","quality":0.268},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:05:12.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:05:16.169000+08:00","text":"對他們來說，他\n們的收入減少，我們現在是希望可以透過政府單位，讓這些辛苦跟最低層的農民有一碗飯可吃\n，未來國土計畫法如果再執行下去，我們雲林縣那些農地的價值性會再減少嗎？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:05:16.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:05:38.710000+08:00","text":"這就是我們大\n協 20\n家都非常困擾的一件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:05:38.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:05:55.237000+08:00","text":"我相信執政黨有許多立委也是農業縣的立委，拜託大家將心比心，讓這些農民可以有比較好\n的保障，給他們一個比較好的收入，讓他們有辦法看到政府單位對他們有真正的照顧。","quality":0.493},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:05:56.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:06:23.023000+08:00","text":"以雲林\n縣來說，差不多將近六成的土地都是在耕作，我們是負責全國蔬菜、糧食提供的大縣，為什麼\n我們非常看重來提這個案？","quality":0.569},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:06:23.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:06:24.604000+08:00","text":"並不是說我們要來表現什麼，我們是實際的說在我們到達一個職位\n之後，我們要做的是什麼？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"丁委員學忠","start":"2024-10-24T17:06:24.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:06:25.965000+08:00","text":"應該是要造福人群，而不是來危言聳聽，也不是來阻礙一切，以上\n。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:06:26.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:06:26.645000+08:00","text":"謝謝丁學忠委員的發言，接下來張啓楷委員請發言。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:06:48.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:02.708000+08:00","text":"今天我們坐在這邊，是因為民進黨政府違法在先，不照顧該照顧的農民、原住民跟醫\n護人員，現在是誰卡住了總預算？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:03.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:03.829000+08:00","text":"不就是民進黨違法在先嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:03.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:04.229000+08:00","text":"這剛好啊，這就是以前民進黨常\n常用的啊！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:04.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:05.009000+08:00","text":"這送回去程序委員會啊，把該補的補好，你們以前也這樣做啊，為什麼現在變成違\n法違憲？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:05.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:10.082000+08:00","text":"你們現在是作賊的喊抓賊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:10.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:15.155000+08:00","text":"以前你們做的事情可以，現在別人不能做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:15.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:45.358000+08:00","text":"現在解決方\n法最簡單，趕快把它補上來，這樣問題就解決了，我們馬上就可以好好審查，尤其是公糧收購\n，當初表決的時候，民進黨沒有一個人舉手反對，那是 113個立法委員共同的決定，你們現在是\n「吃西瓜半夜反症」嗎？","quality":0.349},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:45.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:47.099000+08:00","text":"你們當初沒有反對，現在反對是什麼意思？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:49.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:55.025000+08:00","text":"第二個，農業部本來不就是應該照顧最基層、最善良、最弱勢的農民嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:55.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:07:58.827000+08:00","text":"怎麼搞到現在變成\n農業部站出來反對呢？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:07:58.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:03.030000+08:00","text":"你搞什麼「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」，農民都聽不懂啊！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:04.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:05.973000+08:00","text":"而且根本就是舊的\n酒裝在新瓶裡面，還是舊的酒啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:05.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:08.054000+08:00","text":"你搞十幾年農民都不要了，你現在又拿出來，臭酸的東西又\n拿出來！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:08.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:09.875000+08:00","text":"農民那麼辛苦，13 年沒有調，鄉下現在怎麼說？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:10.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:31.506000+08:00","text":"一分地辛苦忙了半年，賺的錢都還不\n夠去包一個紅白包，一分地忙了半年，一期作有時候還賺不到 2,000 塊，你怎麼忍心這樣欺負農\n民呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:32.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:33.427000+08:00","text":"從法律面來講，立法院過了，你就該編了，而且有慣例啊，剛剛嘉郡講了，調過兩次了\n嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:33.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:08:34.668000+08:00","text":"民國 100 年一公斤調高 3 塊錢，就是立法院通過之後，行政部門就編了嘛，你為什麼要把\n這個慣例推翻掉？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:08:59.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:08.849000+08:00","text":"我覺得民進黨如果真的反對，不要再玩兩面手法了，你們就公開出來，從總統、行政院長到\n立法院黨團講清楚，你們就是覺得農民不該領這個錢。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:08.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:10.110000+08:00","text":"13 年沒調了，為什麼不調呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:10.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:11.612000+08:00","text":"工資也漲\n了，物價也漲了，軍工教都調薪調了五次了，勞工的基本工資已經調了幾次了？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:11.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:12.112000+08:00","text":"憑什麼最弱勢\n的農民不照顧呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:25.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:36.752000+08:00","text":"我覺得民進黨如果繼續反對，那你就公開出來講，你們反對農民公糧收購是\n不能調的，要不然的話，拜託一下，依照立法院通過的，當初你們沒有一個人反對，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:38.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:55.071000+08:00","text":"趕快通過這個法，是你們民進黨把預算卡住了，你們趕快把它補好，而且方法太多了，把它補\n齊，要嘛追加預算，馬上就可以解決問題，預算就趕快審，要不然的話，造成所有人民的福利\n跟建設停擺的不是在野黨，而是民進黨把預算卡住了，謝謝。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:55.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:55.991000+08:00","text":"謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:56.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:09:57.332000+08:00","text":"洪申翰、鍾佳濱委員要針對公糧發言，請。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:09:57.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:10:10.940000+08:00","text":"麻煩簡短扼要，謝謝。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:10:10.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:10:20.804000+08:00","text":"針對公糧收購的價格或者是照顧農民的議題，其實我想現在農業部做足了非常多\n的準備，當然，大家剛才都講到「1 集、2 轉、3 加 3」。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:10:22.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:10:43.951000+08:00","text":"事實上，民進黨黨團也請教了很多農\n協 21\n業界、實務界的專家，確實都認為所謂公糧收購價格直接提高 5 塊的做法，看起來好像農民有\n受益，可是幾乎絕大多數的專家都提醒，這個做法的副作用很多。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:10:45.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:10:57.133000+08:00","text":"為什麼行政部門或農業部對\n於這個做法一直存在著覺得需要再多討論的狀態，就是因為擔憂這個做法後續的副作用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:10:58.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:33.955000+08:00","text":"作為一個負責任的政治人物，不能只看短、不看長，我要再說一次，一個負責任的政治人物\n，不能只看短、不看長，所以這是為什麼有很多專業界的朋友告訴我們，也許「1 集、2 轉、3\n加 3」有可以再優化的空間，如何做得可以讓農民更有感，這件事情朝野可以一起來監督行政部\n門，但這是一個比較長期建立、可長可久的機制，相對是比較健康的機制，我還是必須要講，\n這是第一點。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:33.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:38.598000+08:00","text":"第二點，我們都希望照顧農民，而且都希望大力地照顧農民……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:38.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:41.259000+08:00","text":"洪委員，你請教的是專家，不是農民。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:42.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:43.119000+08:00","text":"對不起。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:44.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:45.720000+08:00","text":"要發言請徵詢一下主席。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:47.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:47.560000+08:00","text":"請繼續。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:47.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:47.840000+08:00","text":"洪委員，請繼續。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:47.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:11:56.783000+08:00","text":"我們也請教了農民，也請教了專業界，也請教了實務界實務的工作者，每個農民都是\n實務工作者，我們也都請教了。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:11:58.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:12:04.445000+08:00","text":"大家也清楚我們是立法委員，當時在立法院作成這個決議的形\n式，其實是用一個主決議的形式。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:12:05.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:12:20.934000+08:00","text":"其實我們心裡都非常清楚，這個主決議的形式如果逕自要求\n增加預算的話，這件事情依憲法釋字第 264 號解釋來看是有高度違憲疑慮的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:12:23.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:12:43.917000+08:00","text":"當初沒有意見的\n意思，我必須說，我們事後還是必須來檢討它在法制上面適法性的層次，但我就實質面來講，\n並不能夠說今天只要行政部門不照著這個決議來做，這件事情就叫做違法。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:12:44.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:12:56.708000+08:00","text":"剛剛啓楷委員一直\n說，沒有按照當初的這個決議做，就叫做違法、行政部門違法，我想這個敘述恐怕是有滿大的\n問題。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:12:56.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:13:31.508000+08:00","text":"所以我最後再一次地 review 這個問題，我們今天在這場協商很重要的關鍵，是我們要一起來\n尋找怎麼樣子能夠讓我們的總預算往前走的共識，我想這部分韓院長很清楚，所以我們在這裡\n面是想辦法求同存異、排除障礙、排除阻絕，讓我們的總預算能夠往前進入到審查、包括付委\n，我們一起來解決，把這個結給解開，這是我們今天在這個地方非常、非常重要的目的。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:13:32.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:13:59.435000+08:00","text":"所以我自己是希望，當然今天針對怎麼照顧農民的問題，我們大家可以各自表述，這部分我\n們都尊重，大家可以各自表述，我們都尊重，大家一起來尋找對農民好的方法，大家一起來講\n，我們都尊重，不用誰去否定誰，但我今天要說的事情是，我們還是希望在我們今天這場協商\n裡面，我們可以回到原本總預算的問題，我知道韓院長也是非常、非常關注這件事情。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:13:59.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:00.015000+08:00","text":"以上，\n謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:00.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:01.015000+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員發言。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:00.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:01.735000+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員發言，請。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:01.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:01.895000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:02.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:07.977000+08:00","text":"剛剛看到說公糧收購也是我們預算協商，聽起來要說 Holo 話才是代表農民，我們屏\n東也是農業縣，所以我想來這裡可以代表農民的不是在座的幾位而已。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:08.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:33.714000+08:00","text":"協 22\n首先，大家要有一個了解，稻米是我們臺灣單一作物裡面占最大面積的作物，產量達到 115萬\n噸，但不是所有的農民都種植稻米，甚至種稻米的農民不是大家都可以交公糧。","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:34.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:38.461000+08:00","text":"大家都以為提\n高公糧收購價格就是在照顧農民、照顧稻農，錯了！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:14:41.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:14:59.898000+08:00","text":"目前有一個數字，全部交公糧的有 2 萬\n3,000 個，以交公糧為主的有 5萬 5,000 戶，但是部分交糧商為主的有 5 萬，全部交糧商的有 10\n萬，所以關於公糧收購的價錢，你說是要照顧多數的農民，不是！","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:00.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:00.678000+08:00","text":"是照顧稻農，甚至是少數的\n稻農。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:00.678000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:16.380667+08:00","text":"我們來看這個政策這幾年來造成什麼結果，我們的糧食生產、稻米是過剩的，我們的稻仔、\n稻穀、米冷凍 3 年之後全部打成飼料米，馬英九時代 100 年的時候調整 3 元造成什麼結果？","quality":0.29},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:16.380667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:32.083333+08:00","text":"造\n成面積增加一倍，怎麼樣增加一倍？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:32.083333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:47.786000+08:00","text":"可以交公糧的農民不是全部的田都可以交公糧，他可以交\n一部分，剩下的一部分他就沒有做了，他可以種雜糧、紅豆，但是公糧收購價錢拉高之後，假\n設他有兩公頃、兩甲地，他會兩甲地都種下去，馬英九時代漲 3 元，面積增加一倍，結果我們\n的民糧、我們的糧商價格剩 19 元，這造成什麼問題？","quality":0.246},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:47.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:58.350000+08:00","text":"三個問題，第一，弊案、官商勾結，飼料\n米收購之後，從糧倉裡面流出去作為營養午餐，大家想要看到嗎？","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:58.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:15:59.471000+08:00","text":"另外，用不好的米換好的米\n。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:15:59.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:01.292000+08:00","text":"第三，用人頭去交公糧，這些情況事實上都存在，大家翻閱報紙或調閱資料都有看到。","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:01.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:04.455000+08:00","text":"所以\n不要再迴避事實了，不要再說收購價錢調高就是在照顧農民，不是！","quality":0.586},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:04.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:07.357000+08:00","text":"是照顧稻農，照顧有辦法\n交公糧的稻農，這些人是少數、占不到四成。","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:24.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:24.951000+08:00","text":"我們在農業縣真正關心的是什麼預算？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:25.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:27.752000+08:00","text":"我們關心的是現在讓各位大委員擋住的，農田水利 50\n億預算、治山防洪 45億、農發基金 29億、農業用電差額補助 24億。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:27.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:40.778000+08:00","text":"那都是延續性的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:40.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:45.364000+08:00","text":"所以我要提醒各位，現在調整之後會增加多少預算？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:45.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:49.230000+08:00","text":"要增加 140億，這 140億要照顧\n農民，不好意思！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:49.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:16:55.820000+08:00","text":"我們屏東縣需要治山防洪、需要冷鏈、需要電費的差額補助。以上。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:16:59.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:17:19.629000+08:00","text":"謝謝農業縣的立法委員張嘉郡委員、丁學忠委員、鍾佳濱委員及張啓楷委員共同關心農民稻\n穀收購，但是我還是要回到我們今天黨團協商中央政府總預算的主旋律裡面，請各位委員能夠\n一輪發言，大家表達心意，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:17:21.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:17:39.107000+08:00","text":"在這裡我嘗試將各黨團幹部還有剛才所有原住民委員的發言做一個結論，就教於各位黨團幹\n部和各位原住民的委員同仁，大家有意見的話可以修正，如果沒有意見的話，我來宣讀給大家\n聽聽看。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:17:39.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:17:58.820000+08:00","text":"一、跟大家說明，行政院對立法院負責，這是憲法規定，有關禁伐補償爭議涉及已由總統名\n義公布施行之法律，該法律明定之法定義務支出，行政院在其編列之預算案中卻沒有依法律編\n列的爭議。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:18:00.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:18:09.108000+08:00","text":"二、行政院就此若沒有正式回應，這牽扯到兩院未來的互動機制和民主的運作，茲\n事體大。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:18:09.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:18:41.845000+08:00","text":"三、由於我們已經協商多次，目前因為少編兩萬元，因此在這裡我們多次黨團協商，\n主計長所提的解決方案各黨團仍有不同看法，由於預算之編制依預算法及本院總預算案審查程\n序等相關規定，必須經過行政院院長、主計長還有財政部部長來立法院進行編制報告，並備質\n詢。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:18:41.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:18:46.948000+08:00","text":"我們是不是應該讓行政院有一個正式回應的機會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:18:47.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:19:11.479000+08:00","text":"四、我們訂一個時間，邀請行政院長率\n同財主單位來立法院進行編制情形，再由本院委員會進行有關質詢，詢答完畢之後，我們再依\n協 23\n各黨團的提議，交由院會處理，來進行本案的後續處理。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:19:12.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:19:19.772000+08:00","text":"五、目前有一個草稿馬上發到各黨團\n幹部手上，請各黨團幹部仔細閱覽一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:19:20.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:20:00.712000+08:00","text":"我來唸一下：一、主計長所提依法補足原住民禁伐補償預算處理之解決方案：本案由原民會\n辦理禁伐補償相關事宜，實際執行經費若有不敷，可由原住民族綜合發展基金先行支應，再於\n後續年度編列預算歸還、動支第二預備金或追加預算等方式辦理相關預算事宜。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:20:01.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:20:29.154000+08:00","text":"二、各黨團同\n意 11月 1號（星期五）及 11月 5號（星期二）邀請行政院長、主計長、財政部長、國家發展委\n員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114 年度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建\n設計畫第 5 期特別預算案」編制經過並備質詢。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:20:29.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:20:33.618000+08:00","text":"質詢人數由國民黨團推派 16 位、民進黨團推派\n16 位、台灣民眾黨團推派 3 位進行，質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:20:34.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:20:36.400000+08:00","text":"名單請於 10 月 31 號（星\n期四）中午 12點前送至議事處彙整。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:20:36.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:20:37.461000+08:00","text":"當次會議不處理臨時提案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:20:55.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:06.418000+08:00","text":"三、上開報告應就原住民禁伐補償、公糧收購及健保點值等預算編制情形併予報告。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:07.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:21.862000+08:00","text":"四、有關行政院函請審議之「114 年度中央政府總預算案（含附屬單位預算及綜計表─營業及\n非營業部分）」及「中央政府前瞻預算建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案」，列入 11 月 1 日（星期五\n）院會報告事項。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:24.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:37.443000+08:00","text":"五、請財政委員會 10 月 31 號（星期四）下午 5 點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事\n處，俾利 11月 1號（星期五）院會之報告。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:37.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:39.385000+08:00","text":"以上協商結論這五點，請問各黨幹部有沒有寶貴意見？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:39.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:39.385000+08:00","text":"請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:39.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:21:39.685000+08:00","text":"首先，請吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:21:45.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:22:09.574000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長試圖對總預算的解決方案提出一些結論，既然是協商結論，我們要非常慎重\n，因為這都會攸關我們是不是在一個正確的處理程序，以及立委對於審議預算期間或者是修法\n期間行使的預算審議權，是不是有過當而嚴重侵害到行政權的問題，這都要一併處理。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:22:15.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:22:31.601000+08:00","text":"我先跟院長講兩件事，我先從您的第二大點裡頭，就程序面來講，如果各黨同意要進行安排\n進入預算的質詢，依往例啊！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:22:32.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:22:57.552000+08:00","text":"您的時間應當是……11月 1號、5號，當然時間大家可以來討論，\n邀各部會來，我們這次有四個預算案，但是有三個預算案要報告，一個是總預算，一個是前瞻\n建設，其實還有一個台電的追加預算，所以本黨從這個會期的第一次協商，我們就希望是三個\n預算案都能夠排時間，這是第一件事情。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:22:58.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:23:24.908000+08:00","text":"當然，如果院長覺得我們要總預算加前瞻先來，這我們大家來談，但是依往例，過去每一次\n在開議預算會期，在協商決定總預算報告的時程以及付委審查的時程，應當都會在報告時間定\n下來之後，也會很清楚地來明定各黨的發言人數，以及呢？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:23:25.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:23:27.692000+08:00","text":"關鍵字在這裡！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:23:27.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:23:49.677000+08:00","text":"「詢答結束交付審\n查，各黨團同意不提出復議」，這個不是我今天提出來的，這是歷次、每一次預算會期進行預\n算報告案必然的程序，這是過去以來的程序，沒有變過。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:23:49.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:24:12.455000+08:00","text":"換言之，今天是不是請求院長在第二\n點的部分，如果要具體排入預算的審查期程，第一個，我們還是希望爭取台電追加減的預算，\n因為這一次是三個預算案一次要報告，要把它放進去；第二個，詢答結束之後就付委、交付審\n查，各黨團就不再提復議，這是必然的。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:24:13.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:24:58.814000+08:00","text":"回過頭來，也要徵得院長的理解跟說明，其實針對今天決定事項的第一項，主計長所提針對\n協 24\n禁伐補償這件事情的解決方案，我們非常期待它還是要有一個前提性的文字來加列，也就是針\n對這一次的預算，大家有一些執行上的疑義，主要是來自於對憲法、預算法、財政紀律法、財\n劃法相關規定的認知不同，但是立法委員也要依法行政，韓國瑜院長領導的立法院也要依法來\n進行！","quality":0.695},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:24:59.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:25:26.410000+08:00","text":"所以說是不是能夠在第一項裡頭，也應當把行政部門非常在意、也是多次提出來的，就\n是立法委員所提法律案大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，應先徵詢行政機關意見，並指名彌補資金\n來源，因此行政、立法基於互相尊重，我們共同來補正、踐行上開的必要程序。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:25:26.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:25:50.332000+08:00","text":"我覺得有這個\n前提，然後才會有針對原住民禁伐補償新年度 114年怎麼編撰，所以這是……院長我覺得您不要\n現在一副很無辜的表情告訴我，其實這個前提我們已經跟您報告非常多次，不管公開的論述或\n是私下跟您拜會說明，您卻很抱歉，怎麼又傷害了我們一次，怎麼又略掉了這個前提性的文字\n呢？","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:25:50.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:14.254000+08:00","text":"所以院長，我們希望在第一點的部分加列文字，因為這樣才邏輯清楚、法制明確，立法院\n從今而後，我們在合憲、合法的基礎上共商預算解決的方案。","quality":0.119},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:26:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:30.844000+08:00","text":"第二點，希望循過去的往例，謝謝院長協助，總預算如果能夠進入排審、詢答，那它必然也\n會在詢答結束後交付委員會審查，各黨團不再提復議，這個是必要的程序。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:26:32.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:34.406000+08:00","text":"謝謝民進黨團幹事長吳思瑤的發言。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:26:34.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:40.677000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請國民黨團林思銘書記長請發言。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:26:40.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:40.877000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:26:40.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:26:48.120000+08:00","text":"對於這個協商結論，我們針對第一點，主計長的意見雖然寫在第一點，但\n是實際上，我們各黨團仍未達成協商的共識，所以我們希望在第一點的最後加上幾個文字，就\n是「各黨團尚無共識」，這是第一點。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:27:06.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:27:43.779000+08:00","text":"第二點，對於 11月 1號還有 11月 5號邀請院長來做預算編製的報告，基本上我們是沒有意見\n，推派的人數我們也沒有意見，質詢順序授權議事處辦理，但是我們對於剛才吳思瑤幹事長說\n要把台電的預算一併納入，這個部分我們不同意，我想這是兩回事；另外什麼不得再提復議，\n這部分也是我們礙難接受的。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:27:45.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:27:46.801000+08:00","text":"我想因為我們還沒有達成共識，所以……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:27:46.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:27:47.982000+08:00","text":"我們等一下會請……時間暫停一下，書記長，等一下我們會有說明，沒關係，我們尊重一下\n委員發言。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:27:47.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:28:15.178000+08:00","text":"因為我們還沒有達成共識，至於說詢答完畢之後，當然我們沒有所謂的就直接交付審\n查的問題，我想我們還是要聽完行政院長對預算編製的情形之後，我們再來決定是不是要交付\n委員會審查。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:28:19.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:28:27.642000+08:00","text":"其他幾個事項我想我們沒有什麼意見，所以我就做這樣的表示，以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:28:33.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:28:59.825000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，理解院長希望事情往前推進的苦心，只是我剛剛看到那個書面，其實我覺\n得剛剛院長在台上唸了一段滿鄭重的文字，對於到目前為止為什麼發生這些爭議，您算是以滿\n中立的立場所做的一個客觀描述，那個客觀的描述是不是也應該把它放在前面？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:02.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:17.412000+08:00","text":"可能不同的黨\n團在這件事情上面的看法完全不一樣，民進黨黨團站在行政院的立場，但立法院我們站的立場\n是立法院的立場，什麼是立法院的立場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:17.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:24.834000+08:00","text":"今天又走到這一步，事情的根源要講清楚，就是行政\n院沒有依法編列預算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:25.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:31.792000+08:00","text":"事情就這麼簡單，禁伐補償條例是不是現在三讀有效通過的法律？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:32.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:32.332000+08:00","text":"是\n協 25\n啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:35.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:46.899000+08:00","text":"這個是一個客觀的法秩序，行政院又沒有依法編列預算，要立法院怎麼進入實質的審議程\n序，這才是問題的根源嘛！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:48.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:53.623000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，院長的苦心希望往前推進，先請他來報告嘛！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:55.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:29:57.379000+08:00","text":"報告你這個預算到底是怎麼編的\n嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:29:58.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:30:07.402000+08:00","text":"特別是針對禁伐補償、公糧收購還有健保點值，這一定要給立法院一個清楚的回應。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:30:07.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:30:23.306000+08:00","text":"所以\n我基本上就是說，對於院長希望往前推進這件事情，我了解你的苦心，所以我也不願意再添加\n太多的前提，讓你推進的苦心越來越困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:30:25.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:30:39.621000+08:00","text":"不過我覺得你剛剛在臺上所做的那個宣告我相信你\n應該是有準備一個正式的稿子，我覺得如果合宜的話，也可以把它放在協商的結論文字當中。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:30:39.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:30:50.587000+08:00","text":"民進黨團請二輪發言，請蔡書記長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:30:50.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:30:50.788000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:30:57.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:31:48.575000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛院長所裁示試擬的協商結論，剛剛國民黨有希望加註，民眾黨黃\n總召也有說有希望文字，那我們民進黨所堅持的就是，國家不管是行政、立法，在編列財政的\n時候，財政紀律是一個很重要的考量，所以我們還是希望可以加註「未來立法委員所提的法案\n大幅增加歲出或減少收入者，應先徵詢行政機關意見，並指明資金來源，行政、立法互相尊重\n，然後我們可以共同來補正、踐行上開必要程序」，我們堅持要在第一段裡面也加入民進黨團\n這樣的立場。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:31:48.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:31:59.283000+08:00","text":"因為國民黨剛剛有說各黨團尚無共識，如果國民黨要加這樣的文字，那把民進黨\n的文字放在第一段應該也沒有關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:31:59.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:32:56.324000+08:00","text":"我還有第二個建議就是，因為第三段就有講到「上開報告應就原住民禁伐補償、公糧收購及\n健保點值等預算編制處理情形併予報告」，既然第三段已經講到要併予報告，是不是在這個協\n商結論就不用第一段，直接就把第二段當作是大家共同要讓總預算可以往前一步的初步共識，\n但是就院長所排定的日期，我們還是希望國民黨至少可以在這個地方，口頭上就好，可以同意\n質詢後讓它交付委員會審查，要放文字，否則我覺得打開天窗說亮話，你們這樣只是讓大家去\n推派、去質詢，那你們之後繼續不讓它付委，這樣也還是騙人的啊！","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:32:56.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:33:25.356000+08:00","text":"總預算還是會卡住，所以\n我覺得至少在這個地方，我們還是希望國民黨、民眾黨可以把「讓它交付委員會」這件事情也\n併入文字裡面作為協商結論，讓我們至少有信心接下來可以好好地來進行明年度總預算的審查\n，謝謝。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:33:25.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:33:27.707500+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡書記長發言。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:33:27.707500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:33:30.059000+08:00","text":"國民黨團請二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:33:30.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:33:32.820000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長用心良苦，為了我們現在其實膠著滿久，而且民進黨團也一直強調要趕快能\n夠有一些進程進入審查所做的努力，在這邊先感謝院長。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:33:32.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:11.514000+08:00","text":"至於在文字的部分，現在看起來，其\n實如果大家基本的共識都是希望讓中央政府總預算的審查能夠往前一步的話，我必須講，大家\n就不要在文字上還想占一點點便宜，或者說我們口頭來承諾……","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:11.514000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:14.293923+08:00","text":"我剛剛說希望做文字修正。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:14.293923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:17.073846+08:00","text":"要做文字對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:17.073846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:19.853769+08:00","text":"這不就是有點得了便宜還賣乖嗎？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:19.853769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:22.633692+08:00","text":"就是得寸進尺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:22.633692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:25.413615+08:00","text":"希望前進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:25.413615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:28.193538+08:00","text":"我剛才講話，你講話，我沒有插嘴！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:28.193538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:30.973462+08:00","text":"誰得寸進尺？協 26","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:30.973462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:33.753385+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，請尊重一下發言委員，等一下你們可以……好，等一下……","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:33.753385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:36.533308+08:00","text":"誰得寸進尺？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:36.533308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:39.313231+08:00","text":"就是每一次……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:39.313231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:42.093154+08:00","text":"就是你得寸進尺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:42.093154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:44.873077+08:00","text":"請尊重，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:44.873077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:47.653000+08:00","text":"我們拜託一下尊重發言委員，有意見，等一下再舉手發言，好不好？請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:34:47.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:34:52.560000+08:00","text":"基本上，以國民黨團來說的話，呼應一下剛才黃總召所說的，針對剛才院長所講的文\n字，我覺得我們可以把它放到最後的協商結論裡面。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:35:04.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:35:55.894000+08:00","text":"至於第一段的部分，我覺得大家是可以來\n做一些商量，因為目前確實並沒有什麼樣的共識，但是在這邊我們還是會比較堅持，就是大家\n願意更進一步，以目前來說，確實行政院並沒有提出一個合理而且讓我們原住民朋友或是農民\n跟醫護人員安心的解決方案，在這樣的狀況之下，我們願意讓行政院院長團隊能夠再來做一些\n報告，也是有一些補考的機會嘛，然後大家再來溝通、協商，所以在野黨其實都已經釋出最高\n、最高的善意。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:35:58.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:36:22.815000+08:00","text":"關於剛才三位委員，也就是嘉郡委員、學忠委員還有啓楷委員所提的，老實講，蔡書記長，\n當時你在選舉的政見，我不曉得你是不是忘記你選舉公報的政見，其實我們這幾位委員也是實\n踐當時你在選舉公報裡的政見啦。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:36:22.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:36:24.377000+08:00","text":"所以我們很希望能夠讓整個進程往前走一些，但是我們仍然\n有一些原則的問題，我們再給行政院一些時間，這樣可以齊頭並行嘛，對不對？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:36:24.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:36:48.698000+08:00","text":"這樣齊頭並行\n，這就是院長的用心良苦，我們一直膠著在這邊，我們一直開會，然後大家各說各話，其實也\n完全不符合民進黨團的想法嘛，不是一直希望我們能進入報告、進入審查？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:36:48.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:09.410000+08:00","text":"如果經過報告之後\n有助於審查的話，自然就會往前走啦，不要對自己這樣沒有信心啦，不要對行政院這麼沒有信\n心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:09.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:11.691000+08:00","text":"基本上，針對剛才所提到的協商結論，大體上我們都是支持的，我們也希望民進黨團說到做\n到，既然希望我們能夠往前走一步，就不要再用一些關關卡卡，嘴巴講得是希望能夠審查，實\n則卻是在卡預算。","quality":0.494},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:11.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:16.352667+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:16.352667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:21.014333+08:00","text":"謝謝國民黨黨團二次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:21.014333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:25.676000+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨黨團二次發言，民進黨黨團請準備三次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:25.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:37:53.881000+08:00","text":"基本上台灣民眾黨黨團體會到院長的苦心，你希望往前邁進嘛。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:37:55.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:13.611000+08:00","text":"先讓他來報告嘛，說清楚那三件事情到底要怎麼處理嘛，往前邁進、少一點其他的要\n件，我們基本上都尊重院長在這個範圍裡面的裁決空間，其他的話我就先不要再講了。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:13.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:18.299000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我具體回應這個協商結論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:18.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:22.361000+08:00","text":"現在各黨團已經二輪發言完畢，我在想我們……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:22.361000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:25.342000+08:00","text":"我具體針對這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:25.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:30.765000+08:00","text":"我知道，我知道，我知道，但是我誠懇地建議，大家都可以感覺到我用心良苦，對不對？","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:31.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:39.710000+08:00","text":"好\n，針對這個協商結論同意簽字還是不同意簽字，我這裡有……同意簽字就簽字，我們就這樣處\n理，不同意簽字，我們要……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:40.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:42.912000+08:00","text":"院長，我有最後的發言，也許大家越來越接近了。協 27","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:42.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:38:50.417000+08:00","text":"我知道，我提醒一下嘛，大家還是聚焦在這裡，其他的就暫時……\n好，請吳思瑤委員三次發言。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:38:50.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:39:15.212000+08:00","text":"院長、大家聽聽看，針對院長預擬結論的第一點，針對禁伐補償這件事情的處理，大\n家有不同的觀點，因為民眾黨有想增加的文字，國民黨也有想增加的文字，民進黨也有，就代\n表這個部分沒有共識，第一點乾脆都不要寫了，第一點乾脆都不要寫了。","quality":0.202},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:39:15.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:39:59.270000+08:00","text":"第二點，針對時程的部分，我要再次強調，過去歷次在協商總預算排定時程必然會有報告完\n就交付審查，這是過去到現在的慣例，everytime，這不是誰得寸進尺，絕對不是，OK，這要講\n清楚，從以前到現在，每一次針對總預算排定的報告時間，以及各政黨推派的時間，然後就報\n告完畢、交付審查，然後各黨同意不提復議。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:39:59.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:40:29.110000+08:00","text":"沒關係，這個東西我也同意往前推一步，先進行\n報告也沒有關係，但是大家不要忘了社會都在看，如果大家希望能夠真的讓它推進，就是後續\n不要再卡審查的時間，不落文字我們也可以勉強接受，但是不要用這種話術。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:40:29.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:40:39.637000+08:00","text":"我們希望大家是\n真心推進、就是真的推進，而不是先進行詢答之後，在野黨的委員繼續卡預算、不讓它交付審\n查。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:40:39.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:40:59.730000+08:00","text":"大家是君子，我們的前提是我們認為報告完，依過去的慣例就是會交付審查，如果未來在\n野黨委員在報告完之後還擋，我希望不要發生這樣的事情，所以這是最終大家 compromise，我\n們都希望總預算不要再擋的這個前提。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:00.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:41:32.794000+08:00","text":"針對禁伐補償，如果要落第一段的文字，我們有我們堅持的，就是這不是誰的政黨意見，這\n是國家應當捍衛的憲政精神，所以對於禁伐補償的處理跟這個前提，大家如果沒有共識，那第\n一點可以不要寫，我們今天就是讓總預算前進，然後後面有個上開報告就這幾項事情的編纂情\n形，就是第三點，確實是可以在報告當中，請行政部門再就他們的各個方案說服給在野黨的委\n員聽，我們也認同。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:32.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:41:34.115000+08:00","text":"這是我們誠心誠意來進行總預算的質詢，希望未來順利的交付審查。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:46.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:41:56.139000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛有點到蔡易餘委員，我覺得這是人家個人聲譽的問題，剛剛有點名，王鴻薇委員有\n攻擊到他，讓他回應一下嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:56.139000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:41:57.139000+08:00","text":"我沒有攻擊……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:56.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:41:59.603000+08:00","text":"由主席來決定，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:41:59.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:15.522000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，有兩點報告：第一，等一下針對我們中央政府總預\n算行政院長率財、主單位來報告完畢之後，關於我們立法院處理的情況，我們會請高處長講一\n、兩個我們過去發生的真實案例；第二，蔡易餘委員蔡書記長提出權宜問題，我要徵詢國民黨\n跟台灣民眾黨團，他說……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:20.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:23.632000+08:00","text":"他剛剛是直接點名我，希望我回應……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:24.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:35.742000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，院長，我想再補充一下，因為剛才思瑤她對第一點有意見，大家現在就\n直接講一講，我們也不用再……","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:36.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:37.043000+08:00","text":"讓我簡單回應一下……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:37.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:39.625000+08:00","text":"沒有，先讓我發言……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:41.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:43.008000+08:00","text":"我知道、我知道，大家都有很多話要講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:43.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:44.834000+08:00","text":"我剛剛被攻擊也都沒有說……\n協 28","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:44.834000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:46.660000+08:00","text":"我講一下，我還沒講，他剛點名我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:46.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:51.443000+08:00","text":"院長，第一點，我是覺得留著也無妨，第一點……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:51.443000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:42:52.443000+08:00","text":"我們今天就不再指名道姓。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:42:51.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:04.229000+08:00","text":"第一點留著無妨，第一點是主計長他的意見，我覺得主計長的意見我們還是要把它顯\n示出來，這是我們在整個協商過程中主計長講的意見……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:06.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:13.914000+08:00","text":"對，因為各黨團沒有達成共識，我們就是據實把它顯示出來，所以這一點我是覺得沒\n有必要拿掉，OK，謝謝院長。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:15.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:16.948000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召舉手，請第三次發言。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:22.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:27.607000+08:00","text":"院長，我覺得大家規則講好就講好，就三個黨團輪流發言嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:27.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:33.651000+08:00","text":"不要有哪個黨團有其他奇奇怪怪的特權嘛！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:33.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:48.501000+08:00","text":"我再肯定一次院長希望往前推進的苦心，\n只是在詮釋上面，關於民進黨黨團的詮釋，剛剛他們的黨團代表有說明嘛，我們的詮釋是什麼\n？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:48.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:55.627000+08:00","text":"我們的詮釋是行政院院長好好的來報告，報告這個總預算怎麼會編成這個樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:56.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:43:59.030000+08:00","text":"三讀通過的\n法律為什麼沒有編預算呢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:43:59.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:06.897000+08:00","text":"我希望聽行政院院長親自來跟全國人民解釋，他把立法院三讀通過\n的東西當什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:06.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:11.495000+08:00","text":"所以不要再說在野黨卡預算，這卡預算的是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:11.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:12.598000+08:00","text":"這卡預算的是卓榮泰！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:13.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:16.971000+08:00","text":"為什麼\n我說卓榮泰在卡預算，你沒有依法編列預算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:19.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:31.268000+08:00","text":"我希望不要發生這樣子的事情，我真的希望不\n要發生這樣的事情，請卓榮泰好好的編預算，他好好的編預算，立法院就好好審，這有什麼問\n題呢？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:31.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:34.448000+08:00","text":"解鈴還須繫鈴人嘛，對不對？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:34.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:46.991000+08:00","text":"民進黨可以有民進黨的解釋、有他們的立場，各個黨團都\n有各個黨團的立場，每個人一次、輪流發言很公平，誰也不用有特權，以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:48.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:44:48.755000+08:00","text":"我們休息 10分鐘，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:44:48.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:50:46.758000+08:00","text":"休息（17時 44分）\n繼續開會（17時 50分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:50:46.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:50:48.279000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，請坐，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:50:48.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:50:52.361000+08:00","text":"我們因為這個……謝謝，現在時間已經很晚了，進行將近\n3個小時了。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:50:53.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:09.271000+08:00","text":"現在我們處理立法院黨團協商結論，今天整個協商結論從五條刪除第一條濃縮成四條，在各\n位的手上，我想我就不再唸了，因為都已經在手上，剛才已經唸過了。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:51:09.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:13.473000+08:00","text":"大家如果沒有意見，我\n們現在就來簽字，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:51:13.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:21.257000+08:00","text":"好，我來簽字，也請各黨團幹部一起來簽字，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:51:22.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:28.506000+08:00","text":"另外一點，選罷法因為時間的關係，我們就擇期再議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:51:28.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:48.492000+08:00","text":"請大家簽字，如果各位黨團幹部都同意簽字之後，今天會議我們特別謝謝主計長還有各位列\n席的官員，非常感謝你們今天寶貴的一個下午，也謝謝各位黨團幹部，我們散會。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T17:51:48.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T17:51:50.134857+08:00","text":"散會（17時 51分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}