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112年跟113年臺電漲了電費總共漲了4次那監察院我們又是古蹟所以我們有高壓電跟低壓電那事實上我們在水電的維持非常辛苦"},{"start":2132.254,"end":2149.205,"text":"本院從111年就開始實施捷運能源的計畫三年來我們省下了20萬度光是今年1到10月我們就省了11萬度但是省了11萬度比去年同期比起來我們節省了8%的用電量"},{"start":2151.266,"end":2159.952,"text":"但是電費在今年剛宣布的電費漲價10月16號宣布的電費漲價又漲了分別高壓電跟低壓電漲了16%跟12%所以我們還是跟不上電費的漲幅所以在這樣的情況下我們去年被預算凍結了100萬如果不解凍的話我們可能有可能水電會呼出來的情形這個在各機關都有類似的情形所以這裡要懇請各位委員能夠幫我們解凍"},{"start":2178.544,"end":2205.666,"text":"第三個部分是資訊管理的部分我們資訊管理很大的系統其中有26個系統是有關陽光事法的那這個本來不是監察院的業務但是在陽光事法訂立以後分別交給監察院來執行所以為了維持這樣的資訊系統而去年被凍了200萬我們希望這個也能夠解凍以讓我們有利於這樣的這個財產申報、政治獻金等等的一些審查"},{"start":2206.927,"end":2209.828,"text":"第4個是有關我們國家人權業務還有第5項的國家人權業務的訪視、調查、合作國家人權委員會在2020年的8月成立經過了3年的討論在112年我們所有的中層計畫已經出來那我們現在依照中層計畫逐步在推動"},{"start":2225.996,"end":2245.4,"text":"那因為國家人權委員會的組織法第二條裡面規範的國家人權委員會的職責相當多我們在逐次推動所以這裡面我們包括了陳情申訴包括了人權報告案包括了系統性訪查包括了防止酷刑公約包括了憲法法庭參與還有包括我們的出訪交流還有人權教育總共超過一千多案"},{"start":2252.022,"end":2252.863,"text":"好,謝謝李秘書長,接下來有請立法院周秘書長"},{"start":2277.478,"end":2292.415,"text":"主席、各位委員、黃委員跟黃委員各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家好貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議就1、13年憲判字第"},{"start":2293.737,"end":2294.358,"text":"有關今日的專題報告即"},{"start":2318.996,"end":2322.424,"text":"整理憲法法庭之判決結果對照如見第5、第16頁"},{"start":2326.34,"end":2350.895,"text":"並檢討說明下﹐以有關立法程序撥問、憲法法庭判決主持﹐立法程序雖存有瑕疵﹐為尚未被理﹐憲法公開透明與討論原則尚歸法律﹐尚不因立法程序瑕疵而抵制憲法﹐別院有關議事之表決方式之決定﹐以實際運作﹐憲法庭判決結果予以肯認﹐細數別院國會議事之律之範疇﹐"},{"start":2351.815,"end":2363.902,"text":"有關聽取總統國情報告部分憲法法庭判決認為憲法事務協調委員第4條第3項規定僅互以本院得被動聽取總統國情報告之權總統並互本院為國情報告憲法義務其餘有關國情報告常態化"},{"start":2369.485,"end":2391.225,"text":"指定國情報告內容或要求總統答案部分．均抵制憲法權利分立原則施其效力．對此判決予以尊重。．有關質詢部分．憲法法庭判決內宜．立法院執行《刑事法第25條10第1項互斷》．針對不得反質詢以第二項．及第4項部分內容為抵制憲法外．其以各項均為"},{"start":2392.586,"end":2420.737,"text":"現有施其效力．貶調之判決結果．以修正權之原條文幾乎遏制。有關是有關人事同意權部分．憲法法庭基本上肯認人事同意權審查程序．屬國會自律範圍．原則上合憲．令被提名人與書面答物相關問題．其類其說明以答信權．不入任何拒絕義務．且不得裁處罰還．便在相關審查程序．僅得為同意與否之決定．"},{"start":2421.757,"end":2449.131,"text":"未來院會或委員會．有關同意權審查程序．將以未經宣告違憲之新規定．運作並起序名。五、有關行使調查部分．憲法法庭判決認為．扁院僅得以調查委員會．行使調查權．不得設調查專案小組為之．調查範圍僅依以扁院．憲法職權行使之特定．議案有重大關聯之事項。據此．"},{"start":2450.939,"end":2475.697,"text":"至於何者為透訂議案．有重大觀念之事項．因屬立法行使權的部分．是否在修法做更明確性規範．尊重委員合意決定。六、有關舉行聽證會部分．憲法法庭判決略亦．政府連也應邀出席北院各種委員會．並為說明或陳述意見．乃政治責任之一環．其備詢以說明義務．歸屬法律義務與責任．令聯名於憲法上．"},{"start":2476.818,"end":2487.956,"text":"無配合本院行使職權之義務．是以本院不得已科署判判或刑罰等方式．強制其等出席提供證言或程序意見．為因欠缺強制力．"},{"start":2489.059,"end":2512.018,"text":"或處罰機制其執行成效．上代進一步觀察．未來修法方向．尊重委員合意決定。．七、有關刑法第141條之一部分．憲法法庭判決認為．刑法第141條之一有關．藐視國會罪為限制主要理由．在立法目的．善然為追求憲法上重要公共利益．"},{"start":2512.518,"end":2533.81,"text":"不符《憲法》最後的手段性是要求違反《憲法》比例原則是要求抵觸《憲法》保障人身自由是一職由於其他民主先進國家不划相關立法例未來是否再進行修法尊重委員合一決定最後為持續強化國會取得深問衝問完整之資訊權利並發揮立法監督之效"},{"start":2538.152,"end":2558.926,"text":"行政幕僚之立場．在113年憲判字第9號判決後．扁院各黨團及委員．能認為未來．能有採取求法之必要．亦尊重委員提案及審查結果．即幕僚立場．會配合處理相關行政幕僚工作．以使扁院職權行使更為順遂以上報告進行指教謝謝謝謝周秘書長接下來"},{"start":2565.766,"end":2568.567,"text":"各位委員跟各位財長先請大家好"},{"start":2594.037,"end":2611.016,"text":"今天很榮幸受邀以民間人士的一個角度來這邊進行跟報告跟大家分享說對於113憲判9的一些簡單的一些看法必須要先說明的是說其實在113憲判9這個判決"},{"start":2614.139,"end":2642.179,"text":"我們現在看起來大家現在剛出來大家都還在有所討論可是其實大家如果去細看我們113憲判9他所使用的審查原則就是他的審查依據其實跟我們過去對於憲法的理解並沒有差距太大為什麼要特別提這件事情因為現在不斷有人提到說是不是有變更不同的看法跟以前的理解不太一樣"},{"start":2643.16,"end":2660.246,"text":"我想我們國家的憲政基本原則從以前到現在大法官不斷不斷的透過各個解釋的方式來進行累積然後並對我們的憲政秩序逐步的讓它完整化我們先回到我們現在看到的這一次113憲判9的這幾個主文"},{"start":2663.287,"end":2669.13,"text":"主文一提到程序大法官特別提到審查原則要求公開透明必須有討論原則這個原則從過去以來一直不斷被討論建立主文二特別提到關於總統來這邊進行"},{"start":2690.011,"end":2713.296,"text":"國情報告的這個部分我想大法官他這邊審查的原則在過去來也非常的清楚他大概提到的就是我們權力分立的一個概念跟想法那我們過去來大法官對於權力分立的理解就是各個憲法機關各自之間應該要分權而制衡沒有誰上誰下的這個概念在這一次的判決書裡面其實不斷不斷的被提及"},{"start":2715.976,"end":2730.445,"text":"那這樣子的內容其實從過去的44613號、446391號解釋其實就可以看得出來說其實這樣子的標準並不是一個新的標準這樣的標準是歷來我們對於憲法上所理解所當然的一種標準"},{"start":2731.866,"end":2746.758,"text":"那我們再往下看主文二以下的部分我們可以看到調查權的部分、質詢權的部分、聽證權的部分這一些的內容其實跟過去大法官所建立的標準是否一致"},{"start":2747.458,"end":2772.647,"text":"在我們看起來它的標準似乎看起來都是相同的因為這樣子的內涵其實從我們過去的461號解釋就是參謀總統要不要來立法院這件事情到了我們4-585號到了4-729號我想這個部分在立法院實現行使法的審理過程中都不斷有先進到這邊來跟大家說明說其實我們大法官過去所理解的這樣子的一個標準到底是什麼"},{"start":2773.487,"end":2799.383,"text":"那這一次的判決我們可以看得到的是他所運用的原則也是運用過去這一些標準那當然有一些部分他有進行補充在4585號的部分他有做一些補充那可是實質上來說他的審理原則跟過去是全然一致的也就是說跟我們過去所理解的憲政的原則上完全相同那這個部分也是過去民間也在呼籲的就是說我們希望我們在"},{"start":2800.103,"end":2824.537,"text":"立法機關在立法的時候必須還是要秉持著我們的憲政原則我們的相關的憲法的依據來進行審理那在這一次的立法院職權刑事法裡面我們看到了是有非常多的違憲狀態我想這個部分也被大法官確認而且是用我們過去歷來所建立的標準來確認那我們從民間的角度我們會更期望的是大院能夠"},{"start":2825.177,"end":2826.458,"text":"好,謝謝林律師接下來有請李全和李律師時間5分鐘"},{"start":2856.884,"end":2884.064,"text":"主席各位委員各位這個先進大家好我是全國律師委員會的李全國律師那今天很榮幸來這邊報告我們最新的一個憲判字的一些想法那因為這個前面其實很多的這個先進已經做了一些關於判決內容的分享還有一些審查的標準所以我打算用另外一個角度來跟大家分享這一次判決的影響跟後續我相信大家最關心的問題有兩個一個就是說"},{"start":2886.486,"end":2902.982,"text":"為什麼這個判決會是現在我們看到的這個樣子也就是大法官到底站在什麼樣的立場、什麼樣的角度、什麼樣的審查原則做出現在可以說是史上前所未有在審查的標的數量甚至是違憲的這個情況最多的一號判決"},{"start":2904.229,"end":2923.06,"text":"那另外一個也很重要的問題是說在這個判決之後呢我們該怎麼做也就是這個判決它的效力是什麼對我們整個立院的生態包括立院後面這個職權的運作有什麼影響如果更實際的說就是假設我們有打算繼續在這個基礎上面去修法怎麼修會比較好"},{"start":2923.94,"end":2942.299,"text":"那如果知道大法官或判決的邏輯可能對這個修法或是說這樣的方向會比較有實質上的注意這是我今天主要這個短時間分享的一個方向那當然討論這兩個問題都要先有一個前提啦就是大法官的憲法判決到底效力是什麼要不要遵守"},{"start":2942.939,"end":2943.179,"text":"宣告違憲的法條．當然在憲法上"},{"start":2959.224,"end":2986.838,"text":"在整個事件史上都要有足夠的效力會特別提這個是因為我們必須先樹立出這個前提大家在這個前提底下有共識那才有得討論不然它很容易就形成另外一種各說各話是大法官認為核限的部分那大家就保留它使用它遵守它甚至在新的規定中就繼續的這個存留它但大法官認為違憲的部分那到底要修還是不修還是修成什麼樣子然後更特別的是大法官有這種"},{"start":2987.958,"end":3002.463,"text":"在不違反此前提下應屬合憲或尚不違憲的這種宣告方式這也是在權力分立的案件中過去雖然已有但是沒有那麼常見在這一次的案件中我們看到的類似的段落非常多"},{"start":3003.323,"end":3020.042,"text":"所以我們想要先建立出如果大家認為大法官的憲法判決有他一定的效力應該要被遵守影響到我們對於整個法規的理解甚至未來的修正從這個方向來看的話我想要分享兩個大法官在論述上的觀點"},{"start":3021.644,"end":3041.685,"text":"首先是這個一直以來大法官解釋也好、憲法判決也好都有這個解釋路徑之爭那這個概念是用稍微學術一點容我很快的解釋就是說他受到不論是美國法還是德國法的影響其實都有這種大法官在審一個案件應該是比較形式路徑還是比較功能取向"},{"start":3042.506,"end":3055.479,"text":"那形式論或形式路徑指涉的是如果憲法規定的非常清楚憲法不論在文藝上、目的上、體系解釋上其實都有一定的解釋空間而且這個空間上它的範圍其實是非常限縮、非常穩定的話大法官其實應該要循著法條的內容跟意旨來做解釋或是裁判的進行"},{"start":3062.626,"end":3077.331,"text":"相對於他的功能論聽起來就會是比較彈性比較有各種解釋可能性他可能要去透過包括機關功能的論述包括立院包括行政包括政治部門的各種權限來得出現在所立的新規定在現場上的評價是什麼樣"},{"start":3079.552,"end":3102.054,"text":"這兩個路徑他不能說他完全衝突也不能說哪個路徑是絕對的優或劣他應該是在不同的情境跟不同的情況會有不同的使用方式那會提到這個是因為我個人認為大法官這次的憲法判決其實是兩個路徑都有兼顧到也就是確實在憲法上比較明確規定的例如憲法人事同意權的行使"},{"start":3102.975,"end":3121.376,"text":"像這樣的一個問題或國情報告他比較是傾向於就刑事入境的論述但是對於一個憲法沒有那麼明定可是過去可能會有事先實務例如調查權例如聽證權這個除了他去詢過往解釋的一個細膩的補充以外他就比較取向於功能入境那這個給我們的一個"},{"start":3123.158,"end":3143.688,"text":"有想法一個啟發就是未來我們再看看現行的規定要怎麼去修正的時候其實也可以有這樣的觀點憲法是不是對於細貞的或相關的權限有足夠的討論足夠的認定再搭配大法官對不同的條文的效果我們可以得知出它必須要被修正或修正到什麼程度就如同剛剛說有些可能是"},{"start":3144.548,"end":3169.686,"text":"宣誓之起施其效力這有程度最強的這就一定是得修正的有一種情況是與此前提下不申憲法問題這是第二種類型這種情況底下就是要去遵循大法官先生所設下的那個前提為何那當然還有一種其實是政治責任跟法律責任的劃分這就比較不涉及到違憲與否的問題所以我們可以分這三塊來去做這樣的討論那有時間的話我們再後續再做其他的分享先補充到這邊謝謝大家"},{"start":3171.635,"end":3177.129,"text":"好謝謝李律師報告及說明完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答"},{"start":3181.67,"end":3203.489,"text":"由於今天最後本委員會召開那為了給委員充分發言時間那麼本會委員尋答時間為12分鐘必要時得延長3分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為8分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃委員國昌自詢"},{"start":3215.486,"end":3223.071,"text":"謝謝主席 有請周秘書長還有檢察院李秘書長請周秘書長、李秘書長兩位時間的關係不一問候對於這一次憲法法庭的判決當然在社會上面有非常多不一樣的評價"},{"start":3247.935,"end":3274.813,"text":"民進黨的總召柯建民說這是一個偉大的憲法判決另外一位我個人是比較敬重真正長期在研究有關於國會改革我們民進黨非常重要的前輩林卓水他說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權林卓水說這是在徹底掏空國會的調查權讓"},{"start":3276.994,"end":3303.431,"text":"台灣的立法院離正常西方民主國家的體制越來越遠讓台灣國會體制成為獨一無二的民主怪胎我兩面俱成兩種不一樣的看法通通都有我想要比較具體的來看我們在看有關於國會改革過去"},{"start":3304.38,"end":3322.689,"text":"民進黨的前輩啊他主張的是什麼是沒有聽證沒有調查立法院就缺了牙的老虎那這個比較像是形容詞啊因為內容比較不具體那我們再往下看那林佳龍是直接說什麼他說啊說謊"},{"start":3326.193,"end":3338.576,"text":"更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證實或虛偽陳述復起刑法上、政治上面的責任所以那個時候才會民進黨的智庫、台灣智庫編一個冊子叫做請對國會說實話請對國會說實話"},{"start":3346.838,"end":3373.556,"text":"當然問題是現在按照我們憲法法庭我們的大法官所接觸的憲政價值其實不用對國會說實話因為即使在國會上面說謊即使在國會上面說謊也不會有任何的法律責任他就要負的只有負政治責任沒有法律責任我們進一步的來看"},{"start":3374.457,"end":3399.106,"text":"比較精準的來看一下我們憲法法庭的判決理由上面是怎麼寫的他說政府人員應邀出席立法院各種委員會說明陳述意見這是責任政治行政院要對立法院負責的憲法要求這是政治責任沒有法律責任所以這不可以有法律責任的性質"},{"start":3400.151,"end":3422.013,"text":"特別是在針對有關於刑法141條之一當初141條之一有很多法界的先進甚至是民進黨、行政院、總統那邊的訴訟代理人的代表說什麼欠缺法律明確性什麼叫虛偽陳述"},{"start":3423.979,"end":3434.682,"text":"什麼叫就其所知的重要關係事項法條規範的法律構成要件不明確所以違憲但憲法法庭這一次的判決認為那根本都不是問題認為那根本都不是問題因為他直接講什麼他沒有去指摘一事一條之一是違反構成要件明確性沒有"},{"start":3452.941,"end":3470.333,"text":"沒有說虛偽陳述不知道要怎麼解釋啊也沒有說舊情所知的重要關係事項要怎麼解釋啊因為現行法都有了嘛他直接釜底抽薪說什麼啊他說公務委員虛偽陳述行政首長政府委員在立法院說謊這個是政治責任無赦啊法律責任來我先請教一下我們的周秘書長"},{"start":3478.888,"end":3491.576,"text":"在這樣子的情況下在立法院在立法院裡面說謊我們只要可以行事責任就違憲還有任何透過修法補救的可能性嗎?"},{"start":3496.503,"end":3522.868,"text":"如果按照大法官有錢解釋那就沒辦法就沒辦法嘛因為我不管怎麼說我們大法官在中華民國所奠定的憲政價值就是在國會裡面為虛偽陳述不可以可以行事責任如果可以行事責任就是違憲那我就完全看不懂啊而中華民國的憲法法學啊非常的特殊啊"},{"start":3524.534,"end":3549.348,"text":"不管在美國、在法國、在德國、在日本虛偽陳述、科與刑事責任在我們具有中華民國憲法法學的大法官眼中啊通通都是違憲的那已經不是接下來可不可以修法補救的問題啦是這一腳踩下去了以後根本沒有任何的回頭路當然啦"},{"start":3550.39,"end":3565.307,"text":"如果這一次大法官可以做這樣子的解釋有人說是修正有人說是掏空有人說是補充有人說是變更四至五八五那個留待接下來的憲法學者自己慢慢的去詮釋"},{"start":3566.508,"end":3586.259,"text":"但是只是看未來這一號判決是不是未來新的憲法法庭在未來的時候從法的續照憲政價值的延伸是不是有繼續變更的可能性但我現在要問的比較直接的問題第一個在這一次的立法的程序上面"},{"start":3587.159,"end":3606.236,"text":"我知道秘書長遭受到了非常多的污衊跟指摘非常多的污衊跟指摘甚至有立法委員對於你允許舉手投票這件事情直接嗆聲說要把你趕下台那我覺得某個程度上面秘書長辛苦了"},{"start":3611.567,"end":3639.011,"text":"在這整個過程當中承受了很多不需要承受的事情甚至還遭到暴力攻擊因為對你暴力攻擊的立法委員跟你道歉沒有在委員會裡面他有特別稍微做一個說明有道歉嗎只能就是說只能在這邊跟委員報告他有特別一個說明他有說明嗎"},{"start":3642.231,"end":3669.605,"text":"連道歉基本的態度都沒有展於現出來對議事人員發動暴力攻擊所以嘛實質討論的時間極其有限異常常常處於一片混亂這個是這次憲法法庭對於說立法程序他說合憲但有瑕疵但這個瑕疵到底是誰造成的我相信全國民眾心裡有一把尺"},{"start":3671.248,"end":3689.798,"text":"議場常常處於影片混亂為什麼會混亂暴力攻擊嘛要不然我們的議場怎麼會變成這個樣子進一步啊具體來看我看了以後我其實非常的驚訝因為大法官宣告違憲的條文啊不是只有這次修的欸"},{"start":3690.97,"end":3715.197,"text":"他已經貫穿到啊2008年修的條文啊都宣告違憲了我為什麼說他貫穿到2008年修的條文都宣告違憲來看一下立法院職權行使法15條之二第一項立法院得經全體立法委員四分之以上提議院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程這個條文是這一次修正的嗎"},{"start":3717.974,"end":3741.151,"text":"報告委員因為這個是在97年才會加這一張的啦2008年嘛對那這個是97年5月9號在第7屆修的但是這個條文裡面因為這一次的第15條之二的第一項已經變成違憲了所以幾乎現在立法委員是沒有提案的權利所以我們現在"},{"start":3742.632,"end":3749.067,"text":"即使經過全體立法委員1⁴的提議院會決議由程序委員會排定一層邀請總統來是違憲的嘛是吧"},{"start":3755.108,"end":3776.116,"text":"這個是2008年的時候修法的內容我們這次憲法法庭宣告違憲的範圍非常的廣把以前2008年的時候賴清德曾經參與過的修法他的表示贊成的修法通通宣告違憲讓台灣正式走入一個得到40%選票的總統可以當超級大總統的超級大總統制"},{"start":3783.015,"end":3790.245,"text":"他腦袋裡面在想的不是過去民進黨在野的時候大家腦袋在想的事情"},{"start":3791.668,"end":3820.265,"text":"當行政權獨大國會沒有辦法有效監督制衡的時候怎麼強化國會的調查權跟聽證權甚至離譜到什麼程度啊那個不是只有把以前的條文以前的規範2008年的規定都宣告違憲了來我們直接再看啊立法院職權行使法25條第三項代質詢人沒有經過院會或各委員會的同意不得缺席啊連這個都宣告違憲啊"},{"start":3821.998,"end":3841.88,"text":"這個部分秘書長你有沒有掌握我們的資料整理裡面可以看到第8頁那你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長啊我為什麼說你要回去告訴韓國瑜院長來看一下韓國瑜院長在9月28號院會宣布的"},{"start":3842.861,"end":3863.761,"text":"他說來立法院這一邊備詢的時候請行政院院長、副院長、各部會首長要親自出席備質詢除非有特別重要的事情以外不要請假立法院前有行文通知行政院轉告各部會首長要遵照辦理"},{"start":3865.014,"end":3889.912,"text":"那你如果按照這次憲法法庭的判決行政官員不來行政官員不來不請假沒有得到同意立法院也沒辦法幹嘛那我們立法院發給行政院這個韓文是不是有違憲啊來請教秘書長這是我們大概裡面是按照二十六條裡面衍生的意識力"},{"start":3891.516,"end":3914.654,"text":"對 但是他已經講來來來看一下憲法法庭判決的理由他說什麼立法院沒有凌駕行政院之上就行政院院長等行政首長請假不出席立法院院會的情況立法院不可以自我授權為同意或不同意的權限啦簡單來講是什麼他愛來不來不用經過立法院同意啦那既然不用經過立法院同意"},{"start":3920.316,"end":3922.079,"text":"我們立法院憑什麼發這個函去啊他愛來不來都可以啊他上面所宣示的憲法價值不就是這個樣子嗎來我們繼續往下看"},{"start":3934.944,"end":3962.094,"text":"2016年4月14號內政委員會叫那個時候那個時候選舉結束了啦有新的國會但是舊的看守內閣新的國會因為2016年2月1號以後民進黨就過半了嘛但是那個時候還是馬政府在看守內閣的狀態那個時候行政院秘書長沒有向內政委員會報告並列席備詢"},{"start":3964.269,"end":3973.855,"text":"所以那個時候在內政委員會提案譴責在我們憲法法庭的憲政秩序憲政價值之下我們還可以提案譴責嗎請教秘書長"},{"start":3981.188,"end":3998.461,"text":"因為剛才黃委員的整個的一個提問過程當中因為有涉及到藐視國會已經沒有了啦沒有啦現在沒有啦那個是刑事處罰他不行嘛現在我只有回到請假不請假的問題嘛我們院會委員會"},{"start":4001.744,"end":4027.534,"text":"院會委員會說要經過我們院會委員會的同意大把光說這是國會擴權啊不可以做這樣子的規定啊那不可以做這樣子的規定我們一定要往下延伸說我們憲法法庭這麼偉大的意旨到底要怎麼貫徹在立法院的運作當中嗎那我看了以後我就覺得很困惑啊那以後不來我的提案譴責啊這個會不會違憲啊請教秘書長高建"},{"start":4033.756,"end":4044.849,"text":"譴責案是不會所以我們立法院以後可以打嘴砲可以打嘴砲譴責不用違憲但是有牙齒的東西可能就會違憲2016年4月14號這個例子還可以進一步往前延伸"},{"start":4054.162,"end":4064.268,"text":"因為那個時候民進黨的委員除了提案譴責以外他還要求什麼啊要移送監察院啊移送監察院有沒有違憲啊如果以條文來看目前他的解釋是違憲不能送了那我就覺得很奇怪啦因為移送監察院的條文啊這個是1999年就通過的條文欸"},{"start":4080.678,"end":4106.408,"text":"這次修法針對立法院移送給監察院跟他調閱東西不給移送給監察院的不是這次修法的是1999年修法的東西我們這次修法法庭是貫穿力非常的強烈不是只有在審查這次修法的內容1999年移送給監察院的"},{"start":4107.455,"end":4130.095,"text":"他說這個是憲政爭議上非監察院行使糾正權的範圍而且立法院沒有所謂的移送權那麼以後要注意立法院不要隨便移送東西給監察院因為我們連移送權都沒有監察院愛辦不辦 要怎麼辦監察院自己去討論"},{"start":4131.755,"end":4151.047,"text":"再往下看行政院當初提附議理由的時候我說上面充斥的假訊息其中一個有重要的是什麼他說我們認定最低審查是一個月沒有設上限這個叫無限期審查人士同意權不會啊這一次大法官釋憲出來了連對我們的行政權呵護被制"},{"start":4163.171,"end":4190.805,"text":"對我們的行政權呵護備制保護到了極點的憲法法庭都認為這個條文都沒有違憲但讓我覺得比較心痛的是什麼比較心痛的是我們未來在審查人事同意權的時候我本來希望在台灣審大法官的時候可以看到像美國參議院在審聯邦最高法院法官被提名那種莊嚴的程序"},{"start":4193.024,"end":4206.91,"text":"這個是Jackson大法官當初在參議院人事同意權審查的時候他在回答問題以前他第一個做什麼事啊手舉起來宣示啊我所說的全部都是真實的我不會說謊"},{"start":4208.817,"end":4222.838,"text":"但這個宣誓的要求也被我們偉大的憲法法庭的判決宣告違憲在中華民國憲法法學當中要求被提名人宣誓"},{"start":4223.988,"end":4240.09,"text":"他的國會裡面審查的過程當中講的都是真的要不然要接受法律處罰否則啊就是危險主席站起來啦最後這一個問題啊來請教周秘書長贊不贊成這個憲法法庭這樣的看法"},{"start":4242.112,"end":4261.617,"text":"很抱歉我大概這個本身如果是配開秘書長的角度那我的說明是認為這個比較法庭裡面大概可能過大的對於立法權的一個線索"},{"start":4263.237,"end":4280.673,"text":"沒有 周秘書長我不要害你啦因為你只是秘書長嘛今天我很怕因為你在國會的殿堂裡面說了這樣一個大實話接下來成為被攻擊的標的那不管怎麼樣在過去的立法過程當中啊你遭受了很多委屈"},{"start":4281.474,"end":4293.856,"text":"背負了很多不該背負的東西甚至還遭到倒立攻擊對於你在過去這段時間當中在本院盡心盡力在職責上面的表無限給你肯定謝謝"},{"start":4295.674,"end":4320.463,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝兩位秘書長在這裡主席再次提醒今天我們網歷的詢答時間最長是10分鐘現在已經延長到15分鐘目的是希望讓委員不會有10分鐘的緊迫壓力但也希望委員在15分鐘屆滿的時候能夠完成您的詢答謝謝大家配合接下來有請林委員、施銘質詢"},{"start":4331.072,"end":4359.919,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請秘書長哪一位秘書長我們周冠萊秘書長好 請周秘書長 謝謝秘書長早好 各位好是 我想這次大法官的判決出來啊其實我們對整個判決我們看到這些大法官他們不演了我們看到大法官對於我們國會改革無法從他的判決裡面我們看到"},{"start":4361.319,"end":4362.34,"text":"打了很大的一巴掌"},{"start":4390.68,"end":4417.036,"text":"大法官根本就是執政黨的打手嘛根本就是賴清德總統的打手嘛我們看到整個不管是國情報告也好人事權的審查也好調查聽證權也好以及藐視國會罪以及相關反質詢的規定大法官雖然認為部分合憲但是實質上"},{"start":4418.643,"end":4437.437,"text":"他就跟我們憲判字第第8號有關廢死的判決幾乎是差不多的意見實質上就是認為我們相關國會應該具備的制衡監督的武器就完全沒了就實質被廢除了所以我們從判決裡面看到這些多麼沒有風骨"},{"start":4445.194,"end":4446.799,"text":"是真的不具備專業的學術"},{"start":4450.078,"end":4475.249,"text":"還是說刻意的護航執政黨所以我們非常的遺憾也要提出大大的譴責首先秘書長我們來看一下國會的國情報告這部分剛才秘書長也講得很清楚現在因為憲法徵修條文裡面規定說我們立法院可以邀請總統到立法院來做國情報告"},{"start":4476.289,"end":4486.772,"text":"但是現在已經把97年修的法律啊15條之二等於十字已經被廢掉了立法院邀請他他可以不用來是不是民主黨"},{"start":4489.093,"end":4503.382,"text":"是這樣的報告因為這個衍生我上次有在貴會報告這一個國情報告當時我很清楚的說明一個我自己書裡面自己也有寫過總統不像立法案負責不過依照當時的話"},{"start":4507.915,"end":4531.258,"text":"立法院有決定權不過這一次的第15條之後的第一項已經被宣告為違憲了所以相對的只有變成總統才可以到立法院報告他自己自行決定嘛自行報告不過有一點這裡面的條文還是要立法院同意的啦所以這個會轉入到目前所說的變成在"},{"start":4532.479,"end":4557.608,"text":"陳學遠總統的時候的93年跟95年的情況可能因為主席要寫這個困境吧所以我也思考了很久本來秘書長是沒有權利講這些話的因為本來是行政業務而已但是既然主席要這樣說所以我就請我們法治單位把整個做了復建在後各位可以參考"},{"start":4558.488,"end":4572.697,"text":"那依照那個條文以後啦將來可能就變成陳總統所有的93年跟95年可能都沒辦法到立法院來是,好,謝謝民主黨11案我想講的就是說因為這一次的認定總統"},{"start":4574.471,"end":4593.01,"text":"到這個國會來做國情報告已經讓他可以可以說總統啊自行決定總統對於題目他也可以自行決定立法院不能要求設定題目那立法院要求他來他要不要做詢答也是由總統自己來做決定"},{"start":4593.991,"end":4608.015,"text":"所以我們認為這樣子的情況之下大法官認為說我們這個修正的條文是違反權力分立的原則這個我不禁就要想問到底中華民國現在是採行什麼樣的一個體制我們是不是雙手掌制啊"},{"start":4614.6,"end":4636.157,"text":"這一個當時在修憲過程當中並不純然以這一個法國的制度為基準所以我現在你要問我是現在目前是什麼制度我從你的專業的觀點來講因為它不是內閣制也不是是是是那個你別說了我也不為難你"},{"start":4638.459,"end":4663.878,"text":"其實我們就看很清楚的看到一點現在的總統根本就是有權無責現在行政院長是總統的幕僚長他的提名之後任命根本不用經過我們立法院的同意所以只有行政院長必須到立法院來做相關的一個備詢以及做這個整個施政的一個說明那總統躲在背後"},{"start":4665.037,"end":4690.253,"text":"所以我們這一次修法讓總統到立法院就他的施政的重大方針以及重要的政策到立法院來做說明以及報告並讓我們立法院的委員可以來對他做質詢監督那由總統來做回答這個才是一個民主政治我們可以直接對只有40%選出來的總統做直接的監督啊"},{"start":4694.33,"end":4715.205,"text":"現在大法官把這個都拿掉認為這個都不行那這個總統不是變成大總統嗎隨時專制獨裁他在躲在幕後他要怎麼樣子指揮他的幕僚長完全沒有責任這是責任政治嗎這符合民主法制嗎所以我們非常遺憾"},{"start":4719.727,"end":4738.878,"text":"具有憲政專精的這些大法官竟然做出這樣的一個憲法解釋所以我們覺得說這批大法官真的印證我們在之前所推論的就是律猶有完全向執政黨來靠攏"},{"start":4741.29,"end":4769.57,"text":"委員長,我想您在立法院服務也將近40年了您也將您這一生最精華的歲月都奉獻給國會我們都非常佩服所以我現在要講的就是說民進黨一直主張說我們在整個立法的過程中黑箱沒有討論但是我們在這一次的憲法的判決裡面對於這一個部分憲法法庭認定是合憲的"},{"start":4771.232,"end":4798.989,"text":"儘管他說在立法程序中有點瑕疵但是還是充分尊重我們國會自律的一個原則所以認定說這個沒有違憲所以還你一個清白啦所以我們很想問問說當時一直主張說我們這個整個程序違法然後號召這些青鳥還請很多的律師來連署說我們這個程序不合法"},{"start":4800.77,"end":4805.09,"text":"這些人是不是要向我們社會大眾來道歉?是不是要向秘書長道歉?"},{"start":4807.136,"end":4835.936,"text":"所以我覺得說真的是去把整個帶風向把整個導正我們國會的一個讓國會更具有一個武器能夠對我們的行政權加以監督制衡這麼好的一個國會改革無法把它誤導為是在踐踏行政權我們非常的遺憾從整個我們的行政整個立法程序裡面這次大法官認定是合法"},{"start":4837.015,"end":4856.146,"text":"完全沒有違憲所以我們真的要呼籲這些立法院的當時在批評這個法案是違背程序正義以及社會大眾受到誤導而認為違背程序正義我覺得他們真的要跟大家來道歉"},{"start":4857.708,"end":4873.808,"text":"另外我們對於這個反質詢的部分我想這次反質詢的部分當然我們的憲法判決認為說反質詢部分是核限但是我們也很遺憾的看到說他認為說"},{"start":4875.765,"end":4893.331,"text":"立法當官員在被質詢的時候他還是可以針對一些問題可以對立法委員來做反面的一個質詢可以做提問的一個問句秘書長正在你的專業你認為憲法法庭這樣的判決對嗎"},{"start":4897.994,"end":4924.131,"text":"他的理由上啊因為我的報告裡面所寫的是說他是回復到原來的這個條文啦增加是沒有啦沒有大概是大廣小一個差那針對他這個緩之詢的這一個憲法所做的這一個理由上那這可能會構成到一個"},{"start":4926.292,"end":4933.903,"text":"被詢的人他可能的語氣他如果照憲法法庭所說的如果是這一個"},{"start":4935.219,"end":4949.286,"text":"如果這種情況的話就變成言語表達方法有可能只剩於禮儀上的爭執了,仍屬於立法院所以秘書長這個部分未來在我們在委員跟這些官員來詢談的時候我們就認為這個就會助長官員的氣焰可能未來就會有很大的爭議"},{"start":4962.463,"end":4980.167,"text":"所以我們講其實我個人是覺得說反質詢的定義沒有什麼不確定的法律概念就是說官員你對於質詢你的人當立法院在質詢你的時候你就不得反過來質詢我們的立法院這個定義非常明確啊所以還可以去對立法院說反而提問來問你說委員請問你的看法是什麼可以這樣嗎"},{"start":4991.112,"end":5010.261,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個憲法法庭的這些大法官去刻意的去做反質詢做加以定義然後又去刻意向官員做靠攏說他也可以提問在某部分可以提問我覺得這個都是非常這個不恰當的另外我們最後就國會的聽證調查權部分來請教這個秘書長"},{"start":5015.363,"end":5039.066,"text":"這一次就是我們可以成立調查委員會但是對我們的調查專案小組卻否定說可以成立另外對於政府人員提供資料或物件我們調查委員會要求他提出相關的資料並且要求我們人民出席作證等事項憲法法庭認為超出我們的權限因此違憲失效"},{"start":5040.827,"end":5059.342,"text":"這個部分也否覺得大大的限縮我們立法院的一個權限所以我們認為說對於聽證調查權如果說我們在585號解釋所謂的說我們為了讓我們的國會讓我們的立法院他在行使權力的時候能夠更"},{"start":5060.643,"end":5061.383,"text":"大法官是不是在打臉自己啊?"},{"start":5084.025,"end":5093.332,"text":"五八五號解釋說我們有一個可以予以強制處罰的一個行政法的一個權利但這一次說完全不可以牧長認為妥當嗎"},{"start":5099.289,"end":5117.424,"text":"是不是打臉自己?很抱歉,我大概不能針對這個做任何一個闡述啦。我只能跟貴會報告,當時在民國87年在研擬這個立法院職權行使法的時候,當時沒有5號解釋,只有3號解釋。"},{"start":5120.487,"end":5148.064,"text":"所以當時的草擬的同事我是把他退回去因為他是按照林委員佐水的議事規則的草案草擬來是有比較的規範跟文件調閱有點差異啦所以後來再重新再演繹變成現行的條文市長我想我們還是要說啦如果立法院的調查權沒有強制處分做後盾的話"},{"start":5149.52,"end":5178.046,"text":"根本他就沒有辦法去拘束我們這些相關的這些官員他到立法院來作證或者到立法院來做相關的詢答的時候必須真實的去對我們的問題做出他的一個回答所以沒有強制處分權做後盾我想過去我們的立法的先進大家都說這等於說就是讓我們國會成為沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":5179.484,"end":5206.934,"text":"這樣如何發揮我們監督制衡的功能所以大法官這樣的弱化我們的立法院立法權真的我們感到非常的不齒所以我們要就這個我們人事同意權的部分我想憲法法庭他雖然認定說我們可以經由提名的機關提出書面問題但是很奇怪的他就寬慎的說"},{"start":5208.905,"end":5229.82,"text":"他不是這些對於書面的提問他不是必須回答這屬於人事審查的任意程序被提名人有權自行回答他可以自行決定他是否來回應這樣是不是進一步的讓我們的被提名人"},{"start":5231.141,"end":5250.094,"text":"可以無視立法委員對他進行人事審查的一個監督的這樣的一個的一個情形所以我剛才講的是不是更進一步的去我們印證了我們一直講的這些大法官根本就是在弱化國會的審查權院長是不是"},{"start":5255.674,"end":5278.299,"text":"不用回答可以不用回答我只能這樣說你要不要回答不是我說那個我們對於我們立法院國會要求我們被提名人我們用書面質詢他的時候他可以不用回答可以不用回答嗎我不是叫秘書長不要回答"},{"start":5279.719,"end":5286.171,"text":"他的狀況是如果照憲法法庭的解釋就是有"},{"start":5287.284,"end":5315.341,"text":"我們本身來決定他是不是同意權的狀況至於中間的過程他並沒有太過所以其實我要表達就是說其實我們這些大法官都是在踐踏我們的國會弱化我們的審查權未來如果這些大法官沒有就我們的不管是書面的一個詢答或者是我們在口頭問他的時候他拒絕提供相關的一些資料"},{"start":5316.081,"end":5316.622,"text":"接下來我們有請審委員發會質詢"},{"start":5351.493,"end":5354.775,"text":"主席,我請周秘書長有請周秘書長主席,孫委員好秘書長好我想我今天原本是準備了蠻大一段希望說能夠讓社會清楚說這次的憲判第9號到底是什麼樣的內容因為從禮拜五宣判到現在"},{"start":5381.018,"end":5401.375,"text":"我們只看在媒體上面我們看到的就是罵說啊這個是綠油油啊這個解釋對不對也看到說啊這個解釋很好但是到底解釋內容是什麼一般人民其實真的是不太清楚我本來準備了蠻長的一段齁我希望說在這裡這個有一個機會齁跟大家來跟國人齁好好的來分析這是大法官會議解釋的"},{"start":5402.256,"end":5427.134,"text":"的這一些這到底哪些部分合憲哪些部分違憲但是剛才這個聽到這個兩個不同的在野黨的委員在這裡所提的一些一些指控大概不出這兩天在新聞上面的他們的發言的情緒我就覺得是滿遺憾而且覺得有一些東西好像不回應不回應好像又怪怪的又要花掉我的一些時間來回應這個他們剛才的這些說法"},{"start":5431.684,"end":5456.159,"text":"其實首先就先針對這個剛才林思敏就是林思敏委員講的啦好像很替我們偉大的這個周萬來秘書長抱屈啦說這個當初這個審查的時候民進黨指責你指責這個程序有問題啦齁等等結果憲法判決說這個程序是合憲的並沒有違憲所以民進黨應該跟你道歉民進黨是不是這樣"},{"start":5460.071,"end":5487.776,"text":"每一個委員每一個人的發言的情況跟我...我知道啦你也沒辦法評論啦但是我講的如果有錯你可以指責我沒有關係啦我不會狹運報復啦我也不會懷恨在心啦但是這個林士平委員他有講說因為舊程序的部分這個憲法法庭認為沒有違憲的問題但是憲法法庭裡面卻有這段文字就舊程序的部分他說"},{"start":5489.821,"end":5511.4,"text":"他說這次的這個立法程序實難謂無瑕疵這個在這個你如果要查在第71段他說其立法程序難謂無瑕疵第73段又講一次他說這個自發生立法程序之瑕疵第75段又講一次立法程序雖存有瑕疵"},{"start":5513.154,"end":5533.125,"text":"因為憲法法庭是說你這個齁你不能說這樣子程序是違憲齁但是有瑕疵重大瑕疵憲法法庭直接提了所以民進黨說這個有瑕疵有什麼不對民進黨說這個程序有瑕疵有什麼不對我們說這次立法的立法結果內容是違憲而程序是瑕疵有什麼不對秘書長我剛剛念了是不是憲法法庭的判決裡面我沒捏到哪一個字"},{"start":5541.078,"end":5561.589,"text":"我問你我剛剛唸的是不是憲法法判決的主文裡面的?那是法院裡面他的審查規定裡面但是他認為這個還沒有被理到重大瑕疵吧所以他是但是我剛才唸的是不是判決主文啊我要報告一下因為這個是國會助力的範疇對國會助力的範疇但是我可以讓我說明嗎?"},{"start":5568.033,"end":5589.682,"text":"你這個算不算反質詢?剛才林思敏說你可以那種疑問句照國民黨的定義疑問句就是反質詢嗎?我是要請求你同意我才能說明我並不是反質詢的概念啦對嘛所以大法官對反質詢做了很清楚的定義嘛對不對這個不算反質詢我沒有說你這反質詢但是你照國民黨他們的定義你剛剛這樣就反質詢吧"},{"start":5591.383,"end":5604.856,"text":"我要說清楚我剛才練的狀況剛才所說的我是要請求你同意讓我說明如果你不同意我不會再講下去嘛所以這個不是所以大法官"},{"start":5606.337,"end":5621.4,"text":"他的解釋現在讓我跳到這個反質詢了大法官的解釋對反質詢定義非常清楚啊就是說除非你是這個主客議位你這個主客議位之後並不是用疑問去就是反質詢這樣子的解釋有什麼不對呢"},{"start":5627.731,"end":5656.323,"text":"這一次剛才齁這個前面的委員一直大概兩位委員都一直在講說這大法官會議的解釋齁這個欸不是這個憲法判決齁拔了立法院的牙齁這個剝奪國會的欸立法院的職權然後這個是中華民國憲法的法學齁大法官這個是獨一無二的法學但是這一次的憲法判決他所有的憲法判決他的憲法他的依據都是中華民國憲法本文以及徵修條文"},{"start":5658.447,"end":5675.525,"text":"是誰拔了立法院的牙不是這次的大法官拔立法院的牙啦是孫文、孫中山拔立法院的牙你們講說啊外國的國會都可以幹嘛不是啊我們台灣的憲法就不是外國的三權分立嘛台灣的憲法就把立法院一些職權"},{"start":5677.119,"end":5682.441,"text":"就孫文親自寫說我們應該要把立法院的職權要剝奪以避免國會獨大你去三民主義裡面講啦國外的這個國會有這個國會獨大的問題所以我把立法權裡面的監察權等等這些權利我把它拿掉啊這是孫文講的這不是大法官講的嘛"},{"start":5698.971,"end":5720.15,"text":"那所以把國會的牙打立法院巴掌的不是這次的大法官嘛就是我們的憲法規定設計就是這樣子嘛憲法設計就是限制立法院的權利使立法院不向外國國會用那麼大的權利嘛但我不是說這個五權憲法好啦所以大家如果對這個真的有意見認為說不應該國會不應該這樣子那就大家來修憲嘛"},{"start":5726.018,"end":5753.804,"text":"大家來修憲把憲法改成我們希望的這樣子的國會的制度吧而不是說在現在的憲法之下人家大法官針對依據現在憲法徵修條文規定你立法院有什麼權力總統有什麼義務行政權有什麼義務這都在憲法本文跟徵修條文寫得一清二楚這個憲法判決判決說按照這一條這個條文的文字所以"},{"start":5754.96,"end":5783.1,"text":"立法權有什麼權利行政權它有什麼義務總統有什麼義務都是按照這個憲法跟憲法中間條文的文字在解釋的嘛所以如果對這個有意見就來修憲啊怎麼會去怪大法官從頭到尾我再講一遍中華民國憲法我引用他們剛剛講的話中華民國憲法的法學是獨一無二的這不是 這個沒有錯 這個我同意但這個獨一無二不是大法官"},{"start":5784.246,"end":5791.952,"text":"解釋獨一無二而是我們的憲法體制在當初孫文武權憲法這種東東他就是獨一無二啦這一次齁你看害我這個都這樣都沒有時間剛才在回答齁說這個有委員提到說所以以後立法院邀請總統來國情報告是違憲的你還回答是"},{"start":5811.872,"end":5840.033,"text":"我們立法院邀請沒有違憲啊甚至我們立法我們自己這第15條之一第一項我們要求他每年來報告這個都合憲啊對不對這次解釋文都合憲對不對只是只是按照中華民國憲法徵修條及徵修條文總統沒有這個義務你立法院要邀請當然合憲啊你立法院有權有權邀請啊但是我們的徵修條文規定就是總統"},{"start":5842.735,"end":5866.31,"text":"這個這個總統他要來不來是由總統來決定這不是不是立法不是這次大法官憲法判決把總統的權力擴大了變成太上總統不是是我們原本的憲政體制總統就不是向立法院負責嗎今天我們自己立一個法說要總統來向立法院負責但憲法裡面沒有啊憲法裡面向立法院負責的是行政院啊不是總統啊"},{"start":5868.373,"end":5888.139,"text":"就這麼簡、這麼清楚的問題然後現在把他賴到來給大法官破曬、破死說大法官是因為這樣他讓總統變成太上總統不是總統什麼時候變太上總統中華民國徵修條文從憲法修改完了之後我們憲法總統的職權就是這樣子啊所以這個我想這一次我們看到這個"},{"start":5895.225,"end":5909.133,"text":"社會上在野黨這個氣急敗壞一直不斷地在抹黑就從判決出來之後其實判決之前就開始了一直在抹黑大法官說這個綠油油啦這個都是聽命於賴清德啊從判決之前就開始抹黑"},{"start":5914.489,"end":5925.619,"text":"為什麼會這樣氣急敗壞因為這一次齁其實這一次被宣告違憲的條文在過去齁不管從大法官會議解釋一直到憲法判決其實是數量非常多可以說是以前沒有這麼多條文被判決這個違憲"},{"start":5933.612,"end":5947.479,"text":"但是聽起來這樣所以在野黨看了說哇這麼多條文被宣告違憲但是相對的這一次宣告合憲的條文其實這次申請裡面宣告合憲的條文其實比宣告違憲的條文還多了這一部有一些是合憲的有一些是違憲的"},{"start":5953.561,"end":5973.17,"text":"那你不能只看到說啊這違憲的這麼多是因為這次申請條文這麼多很多都是新創設的那為什麼會有這麼多被宣告合憲有的這麼多被宣告違憲呢這個其實就是剛剛所講的立法瑕疵裡面的我們的立法過於倉促沒有充分討論才就讓這樣的法案送出去所以最後會導致這樣的結果"},{"start":5980.216,"end":5994.967,"text":"你說要充分討論我不是講說在院會本來過去從過去到現在在院會要討論也很困難要充分在院會充分討論本來就很困難但是在本委員會司法法制委員會裡面沒有讓在司法法制委員會裡面充分的討論那個時候連大體討論也沒有連主條討論也沒有連到底這個條文要不要保留都有主席裁決而沒有讓現場的委員來議決"},{"start":6011.84,"end":6031.656,"text":"就是因為沒有充分討論最後結果才會有這麼多的違憲條文所以違憲條文這麼多合憲的條文也這麼多不是大法官有什麼偏見而是我們這次申請的條文就這麼多申請這個憲法判決條文就這麼多裡面大法官甚至合憲的還比違憲的還多這個"},{"start":6037.261,"end":6039.962,"text":"剛剛還有講說這次大法官的判決這個穿透力非常強不只是針對這次申請的條文他甚至到以前的條文穿透到以前的條文這不是廢話嗎日文說當然的啊所有憲法判決的解釋他當然回縮到過去全部的法律啊"},{"start":6061.237,"end":6083.312,"text":"他當然是針對所有的相關的法條通通他的效力當然都急於這些啦這個不是廢話這是什麼好指責的連這個都拿出來講好像說這些就是大法官的解釋是多麼最惡多麼這個最大惡極的這種都是抹黑啦再有來看都是對於台灣未來的民主體制都是傷害"},{"start":6084.837,"end":6112.632,"text":"這種不就事論事然後把這個機關把這些憲政機關隨便的任意貼上標籤把他這個污名化到最後所有的所有的中華民國體制機關全部都被你污名化了全部都是民進黨的全部都是綠油油只有立法院是正義之師等到未來民主體制不是民主體制不是要運作這4年欸是未來台灣中華民國百年欸"},{"start":6113.942,"end":6137.834,"text":"未來換人執政換什麼這些都被污名化了以後大法官會議也是混蛋大法官會議做的解釋他社會公信力何在以後監察院是混蛋考試院是混蛋都是綠色這樣子來抹黑抹黑將這個憲政機關標籤化這樣的做法我認為非常惡劣對台灣民主政治是傷害就事論事嘛"},{"start":6143.977,"end":6166.344,"text":"這次所做的這些解釋不管是對總統國情的報告他也說這個就是立法院的權利合憲的就是合憲違憲的就是違憲因為現行的中華民國憲法立法院是他有被動的權利但是總統他沒有義務這個是現在徵求條文裡面的規定他就依這個規定條文來做解釋說這個這個"},{"start":6172.036,"end":6190.923,"text":"哪一些規定是合憲哪一些規定是違憲這個很清楚就總統國情報告的部分對於質詢權的部分他也講得很清楚他說禁止反質詢是合憲的他沒有說禁止反質詢違憲他禁止反質詢是合憲的但是"},{"start":6192.008,"end":6215.215,"text":"要區分、要定義、反質詢、要區分、不禮貌一問句最後是問號像你剛剛問的我可以回答嗎?這種不是反質詢這個要區分、要定義這樣講有什麼不對?這個大法官會議解釋就是這樣他說必須反質詢必須要定義但是禁止反質詢是合憲的這是這次的解釋有這樣提到那至於罰還"},{"start":6216.98,"end":6233.277,"text":"因為質詢內容回答而加以罰還,這個是違憲的,這個也宣告了。這個非經主席同意拒絕提供資訊及其他藐視國會行為,這些也是違憲的。有關人事同意權的部分,它基本上延續四字第632號的解釋,"},{"start":6236.377,"end":6259.854,"text":"他說審查你要怎麼審查要他提什麼東西這個都是立法院自律事項這個都是合憲的他沒有說這個都是違憲大部分這些條文都是合憲的你要幾天召開這個委員會你要他提供什麼這些都是合憲的但是這些被提名人他還不是公職所以他沒有這個義務這個是你現在對沒有義務的人可以罰還這個"},{"start":6265.407,"end":6283.958,"text":"是違憲的這個都講得很清楚最重要的一句話因為時間的關係我後面的這些有關調查權聽證會表示國會我就不談了但是人事同意最後講這句話最重要的在人事同意解釋他說立法院剛剛講的這些都合憲喔都合憲都沒有全部違憲"},{"start":6285.151,"end":6297.419,"text":"但是最重要的延續4至6、3、2號的解釋他說立法院不得以程序的規定變相的限制剝奪立法委員行使投票行使表決的權利"},{"start":6299.261,"end":6320.569,"text":"你可以用很多程序來規定不行的要他交承諾書要他提報告這個都合憲但是你不能夠剝奪其他立法委員每一個立法委員要行使這個同意權的權利不能用程序來剝奪也就是說你不能用這些程序來不進行同意權的投票這講得非常清楚啦還有很多的我覺得"},{"start":6326.004,"end":6350.864,"text":"大家就事論事啦我今天認為主席安排這樣子的專案報告就是個機會讓我們在這裡立法院大家就事論事真理越辯越明把它講清楚這個我們還要立法委員說這個大法官憲法判決立法院沒有遵守的義務秘書長立法院有沒有遵守憲法判決的義務因為他有權機關以上"},{"start":6356.029,"end":6381.256,"text":"謝謝秘書長、謝謝省委員、主席這邊做一個宣布我們剛剛給列席代表跟現場的委員一份113年憲判第9次後的立法院職權新手原條文後來的修正條文以及現場法庭審查的結果內容的整理表那麼如果在場媒體有需要我們再請會務人員提供接下來有請沃委員事要諮詢"},{"start":6389.069,"end":6401.239,"text":"謝謝主席 那時間先暫停因為我有個會議詢問主席我想問一下憲法訴訟法我們上週一在審查的時候我們一直要求要有公聽會在進入審查"},{"start":6402.472,"end":6430.803,"text":"那確實如果又要再一次來沒有討論不是民主又要再一次來重蹈覆轍委員會呢連公聽會都沒有就要進入憲法訴訟法的討論我上次也說了憲法訴訟法從它立法的時候司法院有兩次的公聽會然後在第一次修正的時候在立法院也召開了公聽會現在要二修而且是二修啊修二啊"},{"start":6431.383,"end":6446.699,"text":"立法院可以不開公聽會嗎?所以我想就教於主席喔我們沒有辦法接受那天不開公聽會然後直接快轉直接送出委員會藍白再一次這是違憲上癮喔違憲上癮喔我們怎麼補救?"},{"start":6451.184,"end":6463.577,"text":"我們有要求委員會再開公聽會嘛對不對我印象也深刻那天在立法在這個場域也有多數的藍白委員說對不起那天黃國昌沒來神隱齁國民黨的委員在這裡說沒關係啊公聽會你可以之後再開啊這個張偉忠嘉賓可以再開啊藍白都對不起沒有白齁只有藍的委員說"},{"start":6473.507,"end":6477.61,"text":"主席,你可不可以跟社會關心的公民朋友說明一下"},{"start":6502.799,"end":6518.399,"text":"當然我不知道我這個會議詢問可以請周恩來秘書長上來回答一下我不知道適不適合啦但是這個程序上的問題請問一下主席那怎麼辦國民黨不簽字然後憲法訴訟法就不能開公聽會"},{"start":6520.658,"end":6547.833,"text":"這是怎麼一回事呢?現在怎麼處理呢?謝謝好,那麼這裡主席就將委員所的詢問在上週我們有排定審議憲法訴訟法的修正條文草案那當時的輪值召委吳宗憲委員他們已經將該法案審訊,送出委員會那雖然在審查的過程當中本席有提出等到本週本席輪值的時候是否有來排定而且他們都同意嘛,對不對?"},{"start":6548.473,"end":6561.481,"text":"那當場的情況陳如剛委員所說的他們是沒有反對那也都是說這是我輪值召委的職權那不過呢因為根據立法院的職權行使法第9章那立法院公聽會是舉行從54條到59條那立法院的公聽會呢是各委員會為了審查院會交付之議案"},{"start":6571.187,"end":6579.554,"text":"那這個時候才可以得到一憲法第67條第二項的規定來舉行公聽會那公聽會他必須在公聽會結束之後提出報告然後公院會跟全體委員共參但是這一個前提在這文字裡面的去理解這個是該法案在委員會審查期間他可以由委員會來召開公聽會"},{"start":6595.567,"end":6608.163,"text":"由於該法案已經由上週的輪值召委吳召偉已經審查完畢也送出議員會也提交了這個委員會的報告那麼當然在議員會審查之前他還在討論期間因為還要送協商啊黨團協商對黨團協商但是這個"},{"start":6613.49,"end":6614.671,"text":"本席認為還在討論的過程,所以委員會應當可以開公聽會,為什麼國民黨反對呢?"},{"start":6634.946,"end":6654.491,"text":"有這個潛力在民國98年經濟委員會審查農村再生條例的時候那委員會雖然將該法案的草案審訊送出委員會但是他們仍然召開了公聽會是有潛力嗎有潛力可言但是因為這個潛力到底是不是可以原力那我們因為尊重委員會的運作"},{"start":6656.491,"end":6677.831,"text":"那也特別去就教於我們相關的議事人員包括州秘書長嗎?這個可以在黨團協商之後來召開那不過由於時間急迫如果要在本週是召開必須在上週五完成黨團協商那變動的方式就是由三黨的黨編同意由司法及法制委員會來召開就是這一張?"},{"start":6678.431,"end":6699.404,"text":"但是不過因為國民黨的黨編副總召他不同意所以變成我們在一群上要援經濟委員會的潛力經過三黨黨團黨編的同意後來由本委員會在本週是排定召開公聽會顯然有自然難行之處所以我們就改另外安排"},{"start":6700.998,"end":6717.751,"text":"跟主席做這個部分第一個我非常不同意說委員會已經法案送出委員會就不叫在討論的過程他還在討論的過程因為後續還有黨團協商跟朝野協商法案還在討論的過程而憲法訴訟法當天亂哄哄的"},{"start":6720.453,"end":6747.118,"text":"國民黨不就條文討論然後直接指揮表決中暫停討論直接強行表決這是再一次又閹割了我們的委員會中心主義再一次踐踏了程序正義再一次沒收了討論在場這麼多委員坐在這一排的從翁小玲、羅志強、林思明都全程在場他們都說你可以開公聽會啊結果傅坤祺總召不簽字"},{"start":6748.673,"end":6772.083,"text":"憲法訴訟法何其重要欸我們今天在講討論釋憲憲判第9號難道立法院還要再違憲一次嗎立法院要違憲上癮嗎所以我再次在這裡提出訴求我也希望主席我們要能夠在捍衛立法院審查重要法案的議事程序完備它我認為"},{"start":6773.463,"end":6783.312,"text":"當然權宜之際我們可以用委員個別的名義召開公聽會但本席期待司法法制委員會要補正程序召開司法法制委員會的公聽會這是國會的權利"},{"start":6787.4,"end":6813.608,"text":"謝謝吳委員的提醒其實各黨團也可以用黨團名義召開公聽會我想這個就由我們吳委員可以去參酌好 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我開始我今天的質詢那請問一下主席我可以邀請秘書長或可以邀請律師一起嗎兩位律師都可以上台那我就請鍾秘書長那我也請李玄和律師一起好嗎好 有請秘書長及李律師謝謝"},{"start":6816.91,"end":6842.594,"text":"委員好進入違憲有兩種這個效果大不同國會要違憲維護憲法而不是違憲違逆憲法很多在野黨委員剛剛說立法院在這個釋憲之後就會淪為沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":6843.86,"end":6852.311,"text":"其實我要說大法官告訴我們的是立法院不能成為到處亂咬人的瘋狗"},{"start":6855.782,"end":6879.678,"text":"國會有權力,但國會要自律。國會有權力,但國會不能濫權。這是大法官告訴我們的事。我不認為這個釋憲結果就如同藍白委員這樣子的張冠李戴指鹿為馬。我想先問一下秘書長"},{"start":6881.314,"end":6909.205,"text":"完整的憲法法庭的判決您應當都有閱讀過?有粗略大概有看過您應當要全文閱讀今天您的報告文字是1224個字針對大法官就厚厚一本應當是有史以來釋憲最後的一本我認為秘書長要全文詳細的閱讀您今天的報告1224字實在是有點簡略那在野黨的委員呢應當把這個全文都閱讀完"},{"start":6910.746,"end":6930.937,"text":"如果沒有呢可以讀摘要沒有耐心讀全文可以讀摘要如果再沒有耐心呢可以讀一下那天會後記者會我們廳長召開的記者會就是記者會的文字如果再沒有耐心再不想認真的話至少可以讀一讀這個憲判記者會的PPT檔"},{"start":6935.1,"end":6945.809,"text":"我希望站在這裡質詢的每一個委員當你指責別人是法盲的時候起碼善盡你的義務把大法官釋憲的文字"},{"start":6947.079,"end":6965.068,"text":"都應當閱讀顯然剛剛站在這裡質詢的對您提問的立委都沒有完整閱讀當然蠻遺憾的您剛剛說您也是簡略閱讀喔沒關係我們好好做功課因為未來在補正的程序我們都可以來做功課下一頁"},{"start":6966.398,"end":6981.421,"text":"這個是憲法78條司法院擁有解釋憲法以及統一解釋法律及命令的權利立法委員行為法第3條立法委員．代表人民行使立法權應克遵憲法"},{"start":6982.382,"end":7003.843,"text":"還有誓字185號．具體針對司法院解釋憲法的效力為何．誓字185號告訴我們．大法官其所依之解釋．自有拘束全國各機關及人民之效力．各機關處理有關事項．因依解釋亦只為之．換言之．"},{"start":7004.804,"end":7014.87,"text":"李律師我想請教一下立法委員應當有克尊憲法的責任吧一憲法第18條立委行為法第3條還有大法官誓字185號"},{"start":7018.729,"end":7037.768,"text":"謝謝委員 因為以大法官解釋185號跟憲法訴訟法都有說它現在是憲法判決確實對於全國各機關都有這樣的效力不過其實這個問題會討論到一個在憲法學理上很重要的議題就是說大法官解釋也好 憲法判決也好"},{"start":7038.248,"end":7038.368,"text":"秘書長 下一頁"},{"start":7059.136,"end":7069.333,"text":"這個是2月1號就職宣誓的時候您也在場您就坐在韓國瑜院長的旁邊抱歉我不在場那時候為什麼還沒有就任嗎"},{"start":7070.25,"end":7092.111,"text":"我沒有好那沒關係您過去在立法院服務數十年這個是歷屆立委的宣誓誓詞我認為跟大法官事先相關的由於事已制成第一句話就是要客尊憲法於事已制成要依法行使立委職權於事已制成不干預司法"},{"start":7093.513,"end":7118.534,"text":"這個是歷次宣誓即便2月1號那天您不在場但是歷屆的立委就職都要客尊憲法做出這個宣誓而誓詞的最後呢如為誓言願受最嚴厲之制裁如果立委都藐視憲法而不是客尊憲法應受最嚴厲之制裁秘書長請問您覺得嚴厲之制裁是什麼"},{"start":7122.995,"end":7146.844,"text":"這是不確定的概念那你覺得如果立委的特尊憲法這是不確定的概念嗎?因為你的嚴厲制裁的嚴厲的概念好 你說的是制裁是不確立的概念 OK那李全和律師針對這份就較於您的法律見解這沒有對錯但是就您認為這樣一個誓詞的效力"},{"start":7148.123,"end":7175.381,"text":"如違誓言願受最嚴厲之制裁立委可以違誓言嗎?我認為這是一個民主跟政治責任的表現所以它雖然並不是不是法律上的責任但是是政治上的那它其實受到監督剛好呼應這一次憲法判決有提到的很多部分其實是需要民意跟民主跟大家的問責所以這應該是一個很大的謝謝李律師您的觀點跟我一樣"},{"start":7176.321,"end":7176.361,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":7201.335,"end":7218.925,"text":"這幾天當然很多立委說這個立委沒有遵守大法官解釋的義務這個我就不便再講了剛剛已經說了那應該受民意的制裁但是剛剛前面有委員在這邊垂詢秒釋國會罪被釋憲宣告違憲難道就代表大法官是同意立委在議事殿堂說謊嗎"},{"start":7231.974,"end":7251.63,"text":"這是什麼樣子的抄議大法官認為藐視國會罪還施以罰還跟刑責這個違憲但是就有委員把他扯成說你看大法官就是同意立委可以在立法對不起官員可以在立法院公然說謊這個邏輯正確嗎李律師"},{"start":7258.215,"end":7279.968,"text":"這部分可能是對判決理解上並沒有太深入因為其實大法官在處理相關問題的時候他其實都是先有一個法理跟審查原則在前面附上理由所以我們今天說要不要拒絕或是能不能講什麼不能講什麼應該都是有一定的條件一定的前提應該是要在這個情況底下討論謝謝李律師正確的解釋顯然前面在"},{"start":7285.291,"end":7299.522,"text":"做這樣帶風向這種抄議的立委就是對於憲法跟這次釋憲文字錯誤不完整的理解剛剛也有委員在說這個現在呢大法官針對總統國情報告的質詢的釋憲結果"},{"start":7305.421,"end":7330.845,"text":"他居然超易理解成說大法官認為邀請總統來立法院是違憲他把現在2024年的釋憲文字居然可以掰成說大法官連2008的修法針對國情報告都是違憲我不知道這位委員在講什麼欸剛剛李律師您在場嘛您覺得這位委員是不是理解也出了問題李律師要好好說明"},{"start":7336.192,"end":7343.455,"text":"您也一起在憲法法庭,我們在言辭辯論庭跟準備庭的時候都有有博翔大法官曾經對著黃國昌委員說那你是以為直播可以取代議事錄囉?"},{"start":7360.029,"end":7383.342,"text":"很重要很清楚直播不能取代議事錄換言之邀請總統赴立院國情報告也是憲法賦予的權利那現在邀請來的人邀請總統來的人現在又翻臉不認人又說不歡迎了說總統來就是過水過場就是作秀那倒不如在總統府開記者會就好了"},{"start":7384.182,"end":7404.727,"text":"這一位把直播當成議事錄的委員他顯然又搞錯方向了他認為在總統辦公室的記者會可以取代國情報告這樣子的解釋周秘書長你同意嗎?我們依法依憲法可以邀請總統來國情報告何錯之有呢?哪裡有違憲呢?要這樣報告"},{"start":7409.654,"end":7438.635,"text":"以大官的憲法法庭對於國情報告他非常清楚的一句話總統自國情報告沒有這個憲法義務立法院也沒有聽取國情報告的憲法義務律師您同意秘書長說的總統沒有這個義務嗎總統沒有這個憲政義務因為不要曲解他不要曲解他你是不是要讓我說明完因為你剛剛說過了我就覺得很難以接受"},{"start":7439.753,"end":7463.593,"text":"好下一頁沒關係秘書長稍後我們一起來討論這個問題喔我針對釋憲之後的結果我有幾大訴求其實我的第一點沒有寫啦我的第一點我是認為剛剛居然有委員要求民進黨要道歉我反而覺得一個違憲的立法院要對社會道歉才對啊"},{"start":7464.892,"end":7492.465,"text":"我不要說提案的委員要道歉好了我知道他們做不到因為他們現在還要繼續曲解憲法還要繼續違憲上癮下去我不敢要求違憲的委員道歉但是違憲的立法院是欠社會一個道歉這是我沒有寫在上面的第一個隱形的訴求我另外的訴求包括請在野黨停止詆毀攻擊大法官但是告不回家他們還是會持續詆毀"},{"start":7494.795,"end":7516.594,"text":"我另外主張競速來依事先的結果行使人事同意權這應當要做嗎人事同意權現在的程序是不是就叫秘書長就是請韓國瑜院長召開朝野協商就可以依現在事先的結果來進行是吧我想應該委員提出大概都可以因為現在只有考試院那其他也有"},{"start":7517.694,"end":7525.577,"text":"其實民進黨已經發函要求NCC跟考試院要求韓院長召開協商那大法官的部分是等視線結果出來我想您作為幕僚長您也應當主動來提醒韓院長應當趕快來召開這樣的協商了"},{"start":7533.871,"end":7548.704,"text":"那另外呢 我也要求 終止各項調閱違憲的調閱委員會或調查小組應當是這樣吧秘書長 在我們的程序上你們會發文要求這些違憲行使的調查小組要暫停或是要如何處置"},{"start":7550.078,"end":7576.593,"text":"我想因為那是兩個委員會吧一個經濟交通我想他們你要交給委員自己去處理秘書長要不要提醒不是我們的幕僚一定會跟召集委員報告所以很好我們秘書單位會來提醒兩個委員會成立的違憲的調查小組要即刻終止很好該做就做當然還有一個訴求憲法訴訟法要停止審查好這個"},{"start":7577.754,"end":7586.414,"text":"我要再次宣誓連公聽會都沒有辦法開喔我看藍白是執意要硬幹下去違憲上癮下去了"},{"start":7587.492,"end":7612.977,"text":"好回到釋憲的本文我的最後一樣也是最重要的扣核的主張就是針對釋憲結果趕快啟動立法院職權行使法的修法如果立法院不想被扣上違憲立院的名號至少大家可以不要再當這個違憲的累犯不要再毫無悔意毫無犯意毫無悔意是沒有假釋的喔"},{"start":7614.473,"end":7641.084,"text":"如果大家不想再當違憲的立院至少朝野可以來當違憲的更生人可以來朝野合作啟動必要的修法不要再當違憲立院請大家一起來做違憲的更生人切莫繼續的成為違憲上癮的違憲累犯下一頁"},{"start":7642.974,"end":7665.028,"text":"為什麼要趕快啟動修法呢?秘書長我是要回顧一下過去585號解釋出來呢針對立法院的319槍擊事件真相調查特別委員會條例即刻就要啟動修法所以呢在兩年的時間立法院就啟動了針對真調會特別條例的修法而且具體的導正了13項條文讓它回到憲法"},{"start":7670.271,"end":7691.285,"text":"所依循的範圍．您記憶猶新所以徵調會就是一個例子誓字585要求立法院就要修法下一頁誓字613也針對NCC組織法當初國民黨提出NCC的委員要由政黨比例來推薦就是讓政黨的黑手來深入立法院裡面很遺憾"},{"start":7693.626,"end":7716.163,"text":"這個被宣告違憲之後立法院也隨即在2007年重新把違憲的法案修正回來政治的黑手政黨的黑手是不能介入NCC獨立機關的人事同意權的任命結果這一屆已經被宣判違憲的國民黨還要再修回違憲的版本目前還好暫時Pending了"},{"start":7717.165,"end":7743.634,"text":"但是613號的釋字之後立法院就重啟NCC組織法的修法這也是一個例子下一頁釋字748號就是同婚法案因為大法官釋字出爐之後2017年5月24號宣判之後立法院歷經了非常多的煎熬、掙扎、努力"},{"start":7745.988,"end":7768.502,"text":"奮鬥我們終於在2019年5月17號讓司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法三讀通過就是所謂的同婚法案這就是歷史告訴我們在這個場域在中華民國的國會大法官解釋之後刻尊憲法啟動必要的修法就是立法委員的職責"},{"start":7770.891,"end":7792.082,"text":"所以我們要即刻啟動朝野一起來把違憲的條文修正下一頁因為我後面還有很多程序的部分沒有辦法講但是我要提醒秘書長您真的可以扮演很正向的角色未來在修法合乎憲法的立法院職權行使法的過程"},{"start":7794.287,"end":7802.73,"text":"針對釋憲的部分改成合憲的另外一個部分請不要再讓民進黨的國會徵改革的版本被丟包了要並案審查不能再丟包了下一頁我不想再講當初在議場發生很不愉快的事情在混亂的舉手表決的過程當中剛那一頁"},{"start":7822.355,"end":7850.996,"text":"我立次去向您遞案請清點人數周秘書長永遠平均大概是我第三案你才受理一案不可以這樣如果要混亂的採用舉手表決就應當清點人數他是每一次表決前的必要條件而不是讓吳思堯作為黨團的幹事長每一案都去清你清點人數清點人數然後你大概三案才受理一案不要再發生了下一頁"},{"start":7852.062,"end":7856.104,"text":"也不要再發聲因為沒有清點人數發聲過贊成60人否定50人可是一開始的清點是108人這就是胡亂點啊"},{"start":7866.63,"end":7868.231,"text":"我最後一頁就好來來回到前面"},{"start":7885.157,"end":7908.77,"text":"所以秘書長我看到您的這個報告我很遺憾喔憲法法庭對於立法程序瑕疵其實是顧及了國會的顏面他認為這是國會自律的部分政治責任跟法律責任不要混為一談也是大法官他們非常堅定的認為大法官是憲法的守護者他們的工作是解釋憲法大法官不是國會秩序的糾察隊"},{"start":7910.41,"end":7927.482,"text":"所以下一頁所以大法官非常自制的讓這種嚴重的程序瑕疵的表決也好討論也好的程序踐踏了程序正義大法官非常自制的告訴我們國會自律"},{"start":7928.877,"end":7947.968,"text":"這是政治責任未來民意可以針對這樣子踐踏國會程序正義造成嚴重立法瑕疵的行為用責任政治來行使也就是政治問題政治解決政治問題跟法律問題不要混為一談我最後以這個這個是秘書長的功課"},{"start":7951.01,"end":7967.306,"text":"我反對您說的程序瑕疵沒有違憲未來好像立法院就可以持續無止境的瑕疵下去請修正您的報告跟您的觀點謝謝好謝謝吳委員謝謝周秘書長謝謝李律師稍後在莊委員瑞雄詢答完畢後休息5分鐘接續請莊委員瑞雄進行詢答"},{"start":7981.857,"end":7982.957,"text":"其實我今天看你這份報告"},{"start":8004.568,"end":8030.966,"text":"我的看法跟別人不太一樣我是覺得四平八穩因為也不敢去太過於表達你自己的一個意見但是有幾個地方要來提出來救教你去看我看你今天這本報告裡面你去提到說有關你就從整個立法程序裡面去講說到最後憲法法庭的判決結果予以肯認系屬本院國會議事自律的一個範疇這句話結論是對的"},{"start":8034.748,"end":8062.594,"text":"但是不是這樣解讀這是憲法法庭他有很多的地方都去一直在跟你講說在整部的一個立法程序裡面很多地方實難為無瑕疵自身立法程序之瑕疵立法程序隨存有瑕疵然後怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣他只是在告訴你就是說其實你們立法院就像動物園你們立法院本來就不太管沒關係"},{"start":8064.654,"end":8064.954,"text":"這句話是在講這個 這句話是在講考試"},{"start":8082.352,"end":8096.042,"text":"你一直頂頭,你會吃到這個廢索,你也不知道現場法庭是在說什麼。現場法庭就是一直在盯立法院,盯著說你們實在是手沒水準的啦。啊我也抱歉跟你們說你們這個沒水準的庭頭有夠危險啦。所以就輕輕就放過去了,就對。"},{"start":8100.525,"end":8122.285,"text":"這句話我來幫你解答你的解讀你的那個今天的報告其實你就是這個意思我也肯認所以我都不為難你啦我們立法院確實在整個立法程序裡面這些很困難因為有政黨之間的一個攻防你很難去講說一個議事規則裡面每一個政黨解讀都會一樣有多數"},{"start":8125.132,"end":8145.607,"text":"藍白加起來多數那好不容易多數當然要給你造反一下讓你執政黨讓你辛苦一下也可以理解但是呢過度的去給自己膨脹自己的權力啊到最後大家就變成白忙一場所以憲法法庭做出這一個憲判的一個判決出來以後啊我都感覺是對立法院啊這樣 也不說重權啦是稍微拔一下這樣而已啦拔一下說不居正的立法院要自己再檢討一下"},{"start":8153.53,"end":8169.126,"text":"第二個部分你說聽取總統國情報告的一個部分軍抵觸憲法權力分立制原則施取效力你跟他講一下說予以尊重是我們也當然只好予以尊重因為整部憲法除非你去自憲"},{"start":8170.507,"end":8183.258,"text":"否則按照整個憲法的一個規定你司法院當然講的就是我們的憲法法庭這些大法官他們反而就是解釋憲法或者說統一解釋法律跟命令那到底有沒有去抵觸到憲法那質詢的部分人事同意權這個部分"},{"start":8187.642,"end":8203.987,"text":"諮詢我就不用說了啦 大家在那裡動不動啊第四點 你看你寫這個就很有意思了那有關人事同意權的部分啊 憲法法庭基本上肯認啊人事同意權這審查的一個程序屬於國會自律當然屬於國會自律啊要怎麼頂 甚至你要怎麼叫你如果不怕說你連累到你的政黨啊不怕說你是苦惹的啊 兩招選票人家沒得當給你 你要怎麼叫"},{"start":8216.121,"end":8221.885,"text":"那確實也國會自律啊只是道歉人家說怎麼會這麼沒有水準可是他的危言大義其實也告訴我們立法院只有一個功能就是說沒辦法沒辦法你就發差啦用這個人賣啦你要提名做我們來當大法官我總理想說這個人很好我有法學素養很好我就跟你同意啊很討厭你做我們來說處理處理處理處理"},{"start":8240.851,"end":8245.776,"text":"一無告解了不起只能這樣國會其實就真的只能這樣"},{"start":8247.458,"end":8268.784,"text":"我們的憲政設計本來就是如此啊那你去提到說未來院會會委員會有關同意權審查程序將以未經宣告違憲的新規定來運作吼問題又困難下去了要去衝一波工我們自我想像說沒有違憲的程序來做一個運作秘書長你會覺得容易嗎"},{"start":8272.212,"end":8298.372,"text":"報告專委委員因為這個在法通過的時候在暫時處分已經我們的單位的幕僚單位已經對於這方面大概都有整理過大概因為那個程序怎麼去審查的程序過程當然他們都已經大概都有整理過了我必須跟我說你立法院你只要大一點都坐在這裡"},{"start":8300.984,"end":8310.107,"text":"立法院不管是誰執政不管是誰多數立法院其實所有的幕僚人員都要保持中立那個素質要提升上來不是為誰來服務立法院的一個運作要有它基本的一個底線"},{"start":8325.389,"end":8345.845,"text":"韓國瑜政議長．權力基礎來自於藍白跟他支持．他提名你做秘書長．稍微編一個順利一個讓他運作一下．可以接受．但是呢．你去弄一個規則說要比較來讓誰．有利於他整個意識的一個運作．這也都不對啊．現在的立法院．現在的立法委員．你說．"},{"start":8349.091,"end":8367.679,"text":"大到內部大到未成的 太不大了 誰掌握多數你就是讓整個行政部門你讓他非常痛苦 一定的嘛 誰來執政都一樣 國會只要你不是多數的話 就是會如此啊大法官的憲法法庭的威嚴大義也是在告訴民進黨啊 說要送到你國會去選書人"},{"start":8370.68,"end":8386.885,"text":"宣説人家搞不好都本來那些程序裡面的運作民主的正當程序該如何如何如何但是如果沒有重大到憲政上的一個重大的一個關聯的話他也認為說不到違憲的層次啊你們立法院的問題就階層不夠管啊你們問題就在選舉而已啊所以你們後備務要去收拾都你們做的事情衝衝的了、衝出來的了、三途過處走走的他也不會幫你宣告違憲啊"},{"start":8398.82,"end":8410.362,"text":"是不是這樣說?你在這裡四十幾年了,你誇張了,你算什麼?但是啊,在整個,請秘書長你再去回憶一下在整個修法的過程裡面,我一直在呼籲啊"},{"start":8411.84,"end":8434.018,"text":"就是說不能人在選舉的時候我們每一個政黨去看著我們的老百姓阿伯、阿嬤一直拜託公聽、聽證、只要你跟人家叫來然後虛偽、嘗試這就補分了本地老百姓你要跟人家三年以後你還要叫嗎?是我在那裡大聲疾呼一直跟人家叫、跟人家叫我說你們這個"},{"start":8435.538,"end":8435.718,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":8455.148,"end":8478.641,"text":"這個權力分立的一個原則我是這一點我是最感觸啦我是最感觸立法院其實這一點啊會最讓人看不起的地方是在這個地方我們做出這樣的一個修法然後修法的部分是認為藐視國會這個部分也被宣告違憲啊你老闆想要去請蔡還是關完的部門都來了你就這樣無限去把自己的權力這樣去擴張啊這個確實是"},{"start":8481.542,"end":8505.3,"text":"我是比較敢出的一個地方所以我今天特別要請教秘書長就是說接下來你會碰到很大的問題還好這一號憲判是救了你為什麼說秘書長他救了你你知道嗎你去看喔你如果站在立法院的角度原來的如果說這個沒有被憲法法庭宣告是違憲的話"},{"start":8506.826,"end":8512.411,"text":"你如果叫我們來台灣去執行之後,你立法院的調查跟聽證,你開不了啊!不然你就要有理由你去務實啊!是不是這樣說?這好到知道啊!我就知道你如果看了這個會選,我就知道你做我們來的一定是臭屁屁啊!要多擔心啊!但是問題這個,你以後怎麼辦?怎麼辦?我覺得民主黨你可以發揮很大的一個功能啊!"},{"start":8534.798,"end":8563.625,"text":"民眾說他聽不下去但國民黨你說 他們還稍微聽下去你要跟他們說 這不是你們的尊重真的不是他們的尊重涉及到憲法層次的齁到最後喔因為你在正當正地什麼人輪流執政大家都有機會嘛你把這個基本大法你去把它把它給破壞掉的話這對整個國家來講不見得是一件好事啊"},{"start":8565.202,"end":8588.278,"text":"國民黨現在偶爾看得到大家都穿白衣 我想說他們白衣穿起來是做得很漂亮我不知道是開什麼國際記者會開始就開始說立法程序裡面大法 憲法法庭說沒有違憲 是啊憲法法庭沒有講說立法程序那個過程裡面有違憲但是他跟你講說有很大的瑕疵 我們這禮拜天還聽不懂"},{"start":8589.977,"end":8597.305,"text":"人家一直說你這沒水準,沒水準就是說沒有,大法官說我沒那麼嚴重我犯的罪是輕輕的而已,沒跟台詩人這樣也要開國際記者會我就覺得很可惜的就是說你們港黨的你沒去發揮說你對他們的影響力我是覺得這個比較可惜的一個地方這一次"},{"start":8612.985,"end":8634.393,"text":"憲法法庭在做出這樣的一個判決之前甚至做出來以後社會充斥著一股大法官你這也沒有民意基礎啊那立法委員怎麼有民意基礎啊立法委員通過的法律你大法官你怎麼可以沒有民意基礎的人你就去把他宣告是違憲"},{"start":8637.75,"end":8651.149,"text":"這個聲音喊得很大對不對這乍聽之下各政黨的擁護者會很有道理就覺得這很有道理可是我認為這個通過不了我們周萬來秘書長你這種"},{"start":8656.903,"end":8677.16,"text":"我們的憲法第84條講得很清楚法官要超出黨派之外依據法律來獨立審判不受任何的一個干涉法官也好大法官也好他我們如果從我們憲法的一個規定你延伸出來他的要件就只有兩個"},{"start":8679.465,"end":8688.167,"text":"大法官或者法官你就是依法審判你就是獨立審判跟你有沒有民意基礎一點關係都沒有啊你引入一個判決判你自己判私刑的你講你如果沒有民意基礎你怎麼能判私刑他會痛那如果全台灣現在三個最大的民意基礎的一個賴清德總統第二個在做新北市長"},{"start":8705.657,"end":8705.857,"text":"不可能嘛!"},{"start":8736.243,"end":8746.085,"text":"我們也不可能去制定出這樣的一部法令出來啊所以憲法為什麼是說國之大法任何憲政機關你自己有你自己的職責你們也提到啊我看整個憲法判決裡面我不管是我這兩天我不管是搭飛機在高鐵喔我這本齁我放你啊我差不多整個憲判我都搞笑啊我們來回一直看我想這看十天"},{"start":8766.624,"end":8779.612,"text":"是要怎麼說這個大法官是綠?怎麼會?你怎麼會說這個大法官,憲法法庭的法官,你說這個做出來這個,有部分協同意見書,還有不同意見書,都寫在那裡?大法官本來就很冷靜啊。大法官就是我寫出來,你們給我看,給你們寫回去批判啊。我管你什麼民意不民意,我可以跟你說什麼人比較多票,我就聽什麼人。噢,我覺得我現在要跟你照顧一下,你如果第二關票沒寫一些你比較好的。"},{"start":8797.258,"end":8814.397,"text":"這樣我們這個憲法庭法庭要做什麼?不可能嘛!我必須要這樣說,所以我是覺得今天大家叫你來是什麼?施設刑堂?我告訴你為什麼要跟你施設刑堂?不就是讓五官主委跟你牽?我如果牽你之後也讓你刑了,你把我牽回來而已!"},{"start":8817.397,"end":8827.482,"text":"所以這個刻意都是矮化我們整個立法院刻意去把大法官說你這個是誰的打手是憲法法庭的大法官我認為應該當打手他應該當誰的打手當人民的打手"},{"start":8836.667,"end":8859.788,"text":"說你這個政黨亂搞的時候我大法官當然要站出來當作人民的打手為人民來捍衛整個憲政上它的一個基本權利啊 民主法庭罪就是這樣子啊他就說你一直沒人給你擴權 啊可以給你選選的 這選舉以前叫阿爸阿母好啊開始阿伯阿嬤啊 大家一直拜託拜託算了喔 給你做檢察官 給你做法官我們都講爛啊 可是還是這樣通過"},{"start":8862.711,"end":8868.896,"text":"我就覺得這一次的一個憲法法庭的最主要做出來的判決的一個意義是反省啦民進黨我也要反省我們要反省說選輸人意見不公要我們來做折衝調和多數的人也不用挑擺他會這樣惹多數也沒有嘛所以我們大家做法對抗做出來憲法法庭就要把我們塞下去這樣"},{"start":8891.827,"end":8920.72,"text":"請教秘書長你的看法謝謝莊委員的整個聆聽的過程非常敬佩在一個整個一個過程裡面大概角度上來看因為以秘書長的角度但因為他是行政資源我未必在這邊表述我個人自己的看法不過不過我個人在立法院幾十年"},{"start":8921.601,"end":8925.923,"text":"是,我必須再指出來秘書長你這樣說我就覺得比較不同意,我是說你要把他放下"},{"start":8949.012,"end":8954.7,"text":"顯然這個部分你也沒有聽得很下去但你去要表達大話不就要跟你要求你注意把它想想看"},{"start":8956.482,"end":8966.131,"text":"我們所有的成長背景裡面我們都知道說,若要遵照司法獨立的規則,偵查中的案件,例如你不要嫁妓,不要要去公寓,我們檢察官,人家發現你在審判,不要去影響到人家的偵查,不要去影響到人家審判的一個獨立性嘛。我們就一天創一個偵查中,東西要一天調調來,我們不是講了很多次嗎?"},{"start":8981.912,"end":8990.974,"text":"這個你當初你也肯認啊可是我告訴你你沒辦法嘛你萬一做出來就是這樣嘛我講的是說你要去發揮你的影響力就是那個很簡單這個放諸四海而皆准孩子也應該知道我們立法院我們創這個法你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎所以我今天問你這一些這一些其實我還是到最後講出最後一個做一個結論啦人民還是主體啦"},{"start":9011.929,"end":9021.617,"text":"老百姓你不會亂問的啦,尤其是立法院的權力來自於人民啦,你把老百姓叫來,你不來叫你來,你不來,你給他介紹,給你發情,叫你講,你跟他說的話我不會聽,要破行。"},{"start":9027.307,"end":9028.867,"text":"謝謝莊委員、謝謝周秘書長。我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":9461.323,"end":9462.344,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來請陳委員進與質詢。"},{"start":9490.506,"end":9501.011,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請周秘書長好 請周秘書長好 秘書長 早秘書長 我們今天"},{"start":9502.455,"end":9518.52,"text":"還是就上週五那個剛出爐的憲判字第9號判決來進行相關意見上的交流那有關國會這個職權行使相關的修法也是本委員會第一會期的一個核心焦點那從過去幾個月我們經過這個畸變和對抗也聽到"},{"start":9524.502,"end":9550.418,"text":"來自各方立場不同的意見但作為民主法治的國家各機關的職權的行使都應該在符合憲法的框架內國會改革的運作和修法也應當在符合憲法權利分立的原則下來進行大法官為解決憲政上的爭議秉持著法學的專業來做出本次憲法判決"},{"start":9551.218,"end":9574.989,"text":"那各機關或個人也都應該要遵照這個解釋尊重我們憲法法庭並接受判決的結果那我想在此我們來請問秘書長立法院是不是也應該遵守憲法的判決來處理有關的事項謝謝陳委員提示這在按照185號解釋本來有權機關的解釋當然就有局勢力"},{"start":9577.21,"end":9578.333,"text":"那我們立法院就是要遵守嗎?"},{"start":9585.951,"end":9611.98,"text":"就配合這一個所做的這一個判決的解釋來處理所以我們就尊重憲法法庭的判決結果了那從這一次的這個判決所顯示出來有部分是違憲有部分是合憲那也做出更細緻的解釋該如何在符合憲判的這個意旨下來行使職權也是未來我們要持續來討論的一個課題那首先"},{"start":9614.505,"end":9640.345,"text":"就這個判決當中有關聽取總統國情報告的部分我想來就教我們秘書長那對於有關這個國情報告大法官認為總統可以決定是否且何時前來報告並自行決定報告的內容詢問總統或是要求答覆則抵觸憲法權力分立的這個原則且這個憲法徵修條文"},{"start":9642.687,"end":9657.06,"text":"僅賦予立法院被動來聽取總統國情報告的權利因此有關定期報告和疾問疾打的條文也都被大法官判決屬於違憲而我們看到立法院提供的書面報告寫道"},{"start":9658.881,"end":9677.21,"text":"對於判決的內容予以尊重那我想再次的就叫我們秘書長如何來解讀這個憲判對國情報告的解釋以及未來如何邀請總統來進行報告並且在這個形式上應該要如何來設計才能夠符合憲判的這個意旨謝謝陳委員所提示"},{"start":9683.615,"end":9699.052,"text":"大概一般來講我這一個報告首先必須要說明我是只按照這一個憲法的裁判依照這一個所做的一個整理並沒有以幕僚長的立場並不"},{"start":9701.595,"end":9716.163,"text":"不可以對於每一個條件加以批判這我必須要先做一個補充不要被外界一直解讀好像我有特別的一個想法我不是這樣的意思所以我才花了很多的時間請了我們法治單位"},{"start":9718.704,"end":9743.658,"text":"把後面的從第6到第15頁每一個法條之間有沒有違憲都有用紅紙跟藍紙寫出來那再來我現在跟針對陳委員所提的我做一個簡單的報告因為我們是已經被動了我這裡有特別寫說被動聽起國情報告之權那在這個裁判裡面所寫的就是總統"},{"start":9745.299,"end":9769.827,"text":"沒有到國情報告的憲法義務那相對的立法院也無停取國情報告的憲法義務兩邊都沒有憲法義務是那這一個裡面他雖然對15條之一的第一項並沒有說是違憲不過要看到是第15條之後跟第15條之四那第15條之四已經是違憲了就不用再跟公務員報告"},{"start":9771.087,"end":9799.06,"text":"那現在的涉及到怎麼應應第15條之後的問題那第15條之後本來我在陳委員還記得我上次來報告的時候我特別講立法院有決定權那立法院有決定權就是因為這一個條文本來總統就沒有到立法院來我們沒辦法總統不向立法院負責吧我的書也是這樣寫但是現在的情況是第一項被刪除掉"},{"start":9800.26,"end":9827.909,"text":"第三相處的立法院有沒有提案權我花了很多時間跟我們的同事在研究那如果依照這個條文沒有的話根本現在就沒有在立法院沒有案了雖然國民黨跟民眾黨是有提一個案提一個做決議但是如果依照這個條文那個案就已經不存在了因為你已經違憲了所以已經失守護理了"},{"start":9828.809,"end":9847.926,"text":"那現在只能再變成第15條之後的第二項去看了那第二項對於這些的議題上被設定是違憲的那違憲的變成是只有總統得知請立法院同意後．立法院進行國情報告"},{"start":9848.607,"end":9871.783,"text":"那這邊就總統有主動的來立法院請你同意我來報告那這邊有兩個這種狀況總統自己要來喊就是好比我剛才跟某一個委員我特別說明在93年95年陳總統的時候曾經兩度向立法院他要來報告那沒有接受"},{"start":9872.503,"end":9899.202,"text":"立法院沒有接受,所以這個可能會變成那種情況秘書長,我們立法院是站在被動的角度,被動啦那總統府現在看起來是主動,他也認同說要來這個立法院做國情報告啦那我現在問的就是說,我們未來我們立法院的這個被動是不是也能夠主動來研討這個未來有可能因應總統要來國情報告的事項"},{"start":9900.387,"end":9917.295,"text":"是怎樣?事務性的我們都已經在上一次已經都有大概都有一個方案在啦只不過現在的一個情況這個條文裡面到底立法院要不要同意他來報告那這不是我秘書長所能跟你答覆的"},{"start":9918.696,"end":9944.914,"text":"就對於要不要邀請總統來做這個國情報告我想在各方都近期內也表達了許多不同的立場那在憲判出爐之後總統府也立即有表示賴總統願意到立法院來進行國情報告這是確定的那這與賴總統在不論是競選的時候還是說他在就職的時候所表達的立場都沒有改變過"},{"start":9946.095,"end":9972.901,"text":"那只要在我們依法合憲的情況之下賴總統都願意到我們國會來做國情報告並且先前也曾經有過相關的這個議案草野已經進行多次的這個協商討論那我們上會期也曾經對於這個國情報告的形式進行過討論參考其他國家的執行情況以及這個憲法機關相互尊重的這個原則之下我想總統到國會來做國情報告"},{"start":9975.924,"end":9979.212,"text":"更是可以讓我們國會來受到尊重展現實際的情況"},{"start":9985.455,"end":10004.386,"text":"黨團協商若是決定要邀請我們賴總統來進行報告那準備的工作就是需要仰賴我們院內在我們周秘書長所帶領的團隊來做籌組那我想我還是請教我們秘書長這個立法院我們是不是已經對於這個賴總統要來做國情報告的這個"},{"start":10007.888,"end":10018.321,"text":"事項有已經安排其他相關的這個流程還有列席的對象以及動線的安排等等的規劃這個部分我們是不是已經有推演過了"},{"start":10018.985,"end":10021.666,"text":"我們是不是已經和府方也進行溝通隨時能邀請總統到本院來做報告"},{"start":10042.22,"end":10046.061,"text":"我相信在技術上的問題我們立法院的幕僚單位應該都能夠妥善來因應但是能否邀請到我們賴清德總統來進行這個國情報告還是需要等待"},{"start":10063.365,"end":10085.294,"text":"我們院長在召開相關的協商會議並凝聚共事還是期待我們能夠正式的來邀請賴總統首次到國會來進行國情報告以建立我們良好的憲政慣例我想作為在立法院近40年的歷史見證者秘書長您是不是也樂觀其成"},{"start":10087.368,"end":10106.896,"text":"本來在以我曾經要寫一個東西對這個特別席位我很期待但是以目前的這個現實面來看我剛才跟陳委員報告過總統要自動來不是我們去跟他邀請"},{"start":10107.896,"end":10126.447,"text":"那第二個狀況就是說黨團協商的那兩個案已經因為這個關係已經沒有案了所以院長沒辦法協商我們也是要釋出善意啊你說總統府那邊單方面的認為說要來國情報告可是立法院這邊沒有釋出善意也不可能能夠促成這個國情報告"},{"start":10129.041,"end":10154.65,"text":"陳委員所說的是對的另外我想就本次的判決當中有關人事同意權的部分解釋來進行討論我們也看到憲判指出對於逾越立法院職權和人事同意權範圍的部分違憲立法院的人事同意權僅有同意與否決被同意人的人事任命的"},{"start":10156.631,"end":10174.49,"text":"並無立法刻以被提名人特定義務的權限．更無施以行政法制裁的權限．立法院報告中續明審查程序將以未經宣告違憲的新規定運作"},{"start":10175.771,"end":10189.12,"text":"那我想請教秘書長就是未經宣告違憲的新規定與現行規定在運作上區別為何以及這個審查不得少於一個月的規定實施上應該要如何來安排相關的期程"},{"start":10191.062,"end":10210.104,"text":"謝謝因為這個法條裡面其實是從632號解釋是可以看得到而且我如果沒有記錯632號解釋是由賴總統去申請釋憲的那現在的一個情形就是這個本身整個一個琢磨上來講因為它是程序上的一個安排"},{"start":10210.925,"end":10237.465,"text":"那至於裡面的很多違憲的地方我們就沒有辦法去做一個處理至於因為現在裡面有一個狀況的跟目前不同點的幾個更程委員報告一下一個原來是吳季明投票了現在改成季明投票了那另外一個委員會原來他是只有初期委員過半數現在兩個都一樣要全體委員過半數"},{"start":10239.206,"end":10259.461,"text":"現在就是說全院委員審查以後這個審查報告跟這個投票一定要10天那至於這個要分開裡面還有一個很重要就是像我當考試委員是一起的總共10個人在一起現在不行了要分別要分別的"},{"start":10261.363,"end":10279.205,"text":"在全委員審查要分別來為之這幾個是比較重要的地方至於陳委員所說的幕僚有沒有對這方面幾乎交通委員會主任秘書跟我們議事處處長對於這個程序流程早就已經有安排了"},{"start":10279.485,"end":10303.976,"text":"好我想有關這個職權行使法的相關修法那在本次這個憲判當中大法官已經給出非常明確的指引對於憲政機關的權力分立劃出界限也不應該再出現國會優位的這個情況那接下來我們國會改革修法還會繼續的持續進行判決也會讓後續的這個相關法有一個"},{"start":10308.238,"end":10329.743,"text":"一旬的一個準則我想這個部分還是請我們秘書長這邊能夠針對這個部分來重視另外我想還是針對國會改革在憲判之後應該重整腳步務實來討論下一步除了符合憲政架構權力分立的原則也必須要落實"},{"start":10331.363,"end":10350.952,"text":"全責相符的國會改革接下來這個修法工作也必須是符合憲判意旨在憲法框架下來進行這個改革那藉此今天的機會我還是要就教秘書長我想再追蹤一下就是有關國會擴建目前的這個推動的進度那秘書長也可能了解"},{"start":10352.052,"end":10366.81,"text":"本席非常關心這個國會這個擴建的相關計畫也多次向您來詢問這個問題那今年4月份的時候詢討的時候秘書長您也表示說個人的立場上"},{"start":10367.911,"end":10384.366,"text":"希望能夠擴建以外同時當時也只是我們總務處在6個月內來完成相關的研議至今也經過半年的時間我想請教秘書長有關國會擴建的研議的意見是否已經有向前進一步的進度"},{"start":10385.547,"end":10412.346,"text":"非常謝謝其實我跟陳委員一樣以在立法院的這個幾乎我從公子信仰就在立法院我一直強調過對這很有感情所以陳委員一直提我也是非常著急這個狀況大概總務處都有處理但是可以請我總務處長跟你稍微簡單報告一下因為時間到"},{"start":10415.349,"end":10415.89,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10429.65,"end":10444.466,"text":"目前規劃的還是以6個原先圈列的地點有沒有已經確定大概會在哪一個位置?沒有,因為地點的選擇是要等全院的共識"},{"start":10445.899,"end":10457.75,"text":"要全委員那可是到目前為止好像我們本會期本屆次我想請教秘書長就是好像我們的院長方面都還沒召開過相關的這個會議的協商"},{"start":10461.327,"end":10475.634,"text":"很抱歉,因為這次政治議題太多了,包括上個禮拜都是為了總預算案,院長也花了很多心思為了總預算。我會再跟他報告。院長對這個國會擴建的相關案子他有沒有在進行了解?"},{"start":10484.231,"end":10512.284,"text":"我會再跟他報告細一點因為他對我們簽上去他有看過有看過好那我還是希望我們這個整個擴建的這個計畫能夠盡速啟動不管是過去選出的這個6個點位或是有考慮加入新的擴建的這個地點都需要這個程序和工程往往都是10年起跳所以你如果沒有啟動的話那個10年是遙遙無期那"},{"start":10514.352,"end":10532.562,"text":"我希望說趕快啟動那因為這個過程也需要跟社會來做溝通實在不宜再拖延那為了國會有更好的這個議事品質也符合我們親近人民的這個國會所需的這個場域我想還是再次請秘書長跟韓院長積極的來做討論重視我們國會這個擴建的計畫相關的期程我希望說能夠儘速啟動"},{"start":10540.796,"end":10551.456,"text":"好 以上我會把陳委員今天的主事會再進出謝謝陳委員 謝謝周秘書長接下來有請翁委員小林詢答"},{"start":10560.19,"end":10581.169,"text":"在我今天開始質詢之前本席有件事情想要請教昭偉因為我看到今天的這個出席名單裡面有一樣邀請了全國律師公會還有司改會我不知道這個事情事前沒有通知我們國民黨黨團或是民眾黨黨團我們也可以推薦公民團體啊"},{"start":10583.027,"end":10607.711,"text":"跟委員說明,如果是公聽會的話,你們同意開公聽會我們信息的公聽會就會有這樣各黨人推薦的例子那今天不是公聽會,今天是專報那專報的話呢,我們根據憲法第67條第二項可以邀請社會上的關係人士到會來備詢這是召委可以來邀請那再更正一下,他們兩位都是以個人是專業律師的身份來參與那他們有他們的專業資歷,那您剛剛說的是他們專利之一"},{"start":10612.142,"end":10612.902,"text":"好,我們現在呢?"},{"start":10641.553,"end":10645.557,"text":"接下來我想請那個周秘書長有請周秘書長二位好是秘書長好其實今天這個召委安排立法院秘書長周秘書長來這裡就113年的憲判字第9號判決"},{"start":10663.936,"end":10687.149,"text":"國會行使職權的困境與未來然後進行專題報告那其實本席認為這個中招委安排這場專題報告難道不覺得慚愧嗎到底是誰造成立法院職權行使的困境那麼當初呢大聲的要喊反對國會改革的民進黨黨團是有在乎國會的未來嗎"},{"start":10688.973,"end":10711.468,"text":"民進黨黨團看起來本來就想把國會做小把立法院矮化成為行政院的立法局把代表國家最高民意的民意機關打成是小矮人那大法官做成正號判決不是正好符合你們的心意你們今天來辦這場公聽會不覺得很矛盾嗎"},{"start":10713.035,"end":10722.278,"text":"還是你們認為說這個困境是因為大法官沒有認同你們國會改革法案修法程序時候當時的訴求全部違憲呢?你們難道沒有去抗議這群大法官對於你們的訴求沒有討論沒有民主?"},{"start":10736.345,"end":10743.351,"text":"很奇怪到現在為止我沒有看到民進黨黨團民進黨委員有任何的表達不滿似乎都還是拍手叫好憲法法庭的判決說這次的立法程序並沒有背離憲法公開和透明的這個討論原則並沒有背離憲法公開透明與討論原則"},{"start":10762.888,"end":10769.335,"text":"說實在話你們民進黨黨團被大法官狠狠打臉竟然摸摸鼻子就算了那麼吳世瑤怎麼沒有對那群留德的大法官說"},{"start":10778.751,"end":10801.479,"text":"這個立選劉德的大法官就是像許忠麗啊蔡忠貞啊謝明陽啊對他們說笑死人笑死人笑死人讀法律的劉德的你們是沒有看到民進黨黨團的訴求嗎沒有討論沒有民主啊你們是不知道舉手表決是違憲的嗎"},{"start":10805.66,"end":10835.189,"text":"我真的很驚訝民進黨委員竟然不敢批評這項憲法判決還說要尊重憲法法庭說這個是台灣公民社會的勝利你們對得起那群支持你們的青鳥嗎?你們騙他們走上街頭還造謠說國會改革法案的修法過程當中是違法的、不民主的結果呢?大法官認為不是這麼回事啊"},{"start":10836.857,"end":10862.765,"text":"何限呢?如果你們真心認為說這個修法過程當中是沒有討論沒有民主整部法律是違憲的就應該大聲的抨擊大法官亂判你們今天的沒有這樣的表明智黨委員今天沒有這樣的這個表態真的讓我"},{"start":10863.905,"end":10877.956,"text":"看到了就是你們基本上沒有大是大非啦你們是看到這個判決結果最後是保皇了嘛就做成了保皇判決造就了超級大政府這不是就正合你們的心意嗎"},{"start":10879.52,"end":10893.891,"text":"民進黨黨團的表現的確是令人吃驚被大法官耍了還在為他們歌功頌德真是笑死人接下來我想請問秘書長請問您看到這個判決您會對這個判決結果感到驚訝嗎?"},{"start":10905.227,"end":10915.738,"text":"因為這是他的權利啦我未必說明什麼大概我只能跟歐委員報告是說在以"},{"start":10917.818,"end":10935.509,"text":"國會的這個成員當然他所做的這個判決他的結果當然我們都按照一八號解釋當然會稍微去尊重他所以我今天的報告因為主席是要求這個職權型的困境跟未來但是"},{"start":10936.269,"end":10957.815,"text":"真正來說明秘書長的角色他是只有扁院的事務所以他是行政之員所以就不宜針對這個來做說明所以我才把這個整理在後面我把它抽離出來有幾個問題然後做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":10959.4,"end":10988.832,"text":"好的謝謝秘書長當然秘書長因為您作為立法院的最高的幕僚長您不太好去批評這個釋憲機關憲法法庭所做的裁判但是我要告訴秘書長說坦白說啦我看到這樣的判決結果一點都不驚訝為什麼因為從法官當時決定要受理釋憲案的那一刻開始我就已經可以預測到今天的裁判結果了"},{"start":10990.509,"end":11008.306,"text":"因為許仲麗大法庭違反了過去一貫受理釋憲案的準則過去大法官要求立法委員要先修法提案修法修法不成了才能申請釋憲才符合程序要件"},{"start":11009.349,"end":11012.471,"text":"那麼對於如果說法案有影響到機關之間的爭議也要實際上有具體的爭議案件出來的時候那麼才符合機關爭議的憲法訴訟的條件"},{"start":11024.076,"end":11045.387,"text":"可是他們這次受理的這個釋憲案是完全打破過去許中立大法庭這個前面8年對於這個憲法訴訟受理的申請原則所以呢我就很清楚的知道這個案子絕對不可能會認為國會改革法案是合法合憲的"},{"start":11046.894,"end":11063.026,"text":"那麼再說他們在暫時處分裡面其實早就已經透露出會有今天的這樣的結果嘛這法案法律都還沒有開始實行也沒有造成任何重大急迫不可回復的損害就已經把很多重要的條文都凍結啦所以我必須這個"},{"start":11069.423,"end":11084.915,"text":"所以我在這邊我其實真的認為這個裁判、憲法判決做出來我一點都不感到驚訝、吃驚我只是認為說這再度的證明了這群大法官他們早就做成新政了啦好 那麼當然這次的憲法"},{"start":11092.73,"end":11121.352,"text":"判決做成之後其實也受到社會上的這個很多的批評尤其是我們法界已經有很多的重量級的法學教授出來抨擊這號憲法判決因為呢大法官這次憲法判決他締造了三個被先進民主國家看扁的這個司法奇蹟樹立了台灣邁向獨裁國家的里程碑"},{"start":11122.91,"end":11148.74,"text":"不客氣的講第一個他造就了超級大總統總統向民意報告竟然不是責任而是權力那麼台灣呢依照大法官的這個見解台灣根本不存在所謂的民主問責機制啊擁有最高權力的領導人他不需要直接間接的向民意機關負責"},{"start":11150.495,"end":11176.146,"text":"就像詹森林大法官說這根本違反基本的政治常識我從這個憲法法院的這個判決裡面就可以知道啊他現在已經把台灣未來就是要走向的就是一個準獨裁政府第二個我認為他造就了一個奇蹟就是他造就了全世界"},{"start":11178.037,"end":11199.188,"text":"經濟富裕的國家但是呢卻有個最弱的民主國會我們看在亞洲國家裡面跟日本、韓國可能甚至跟菲律賓等等這些國家來相比我們的國會的權力是非常非常小的根本無法去制衡現在這麼蠻橫的政府"},{"start":11202.609,"end":11220.442,"text":"這不是就是造就了這個全世界最弱的民主國會的奇蹟第三個就是這一次的憲法判決他再次證明我們現在的大法官擴權大法官造法"},{"start":11223.61,"end":11249.931,"text":"過去一再強調的司法權要自治要自節制的這樣的一個觀念在現在這群大法官的腦海裡面是沒有的是不存在的從實質廢死的判決設下了重重的條件門檻指揮這個立法機關要如何的去立法"},{"start":11250.919,"end":11268.93,"text":"這就是大法官造法一個最好的一個證明在這次的國會改革的事先案當中同樣的不僅做數萬裁判而且也還是說你這個不對那個不對然後你要怎麼另外要去怎麼修所以呢這確實是"},{"start":11272.833,"end":11273.813,"text":"尊重委員的婚姻"},{"start":11303.609,"end":11303.629,"text":"好"},{"start":11330.507,"end":11341.621,"text":"我想無論如何在這一次的憲法判決當中我唯一比較能夠肯認的就是這群大法官倒是非常贊同秘書長您當時在我們國會改革修法過程當中的一些堅持"},{"start":11348.77,"end":11348.79,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11364.564,"end":11377.218,"text":"在這次的憲法法院判決當中基本上是認為我們這次的國會改革的修法程序是合憲的就這個部分我就必須要非常肯定秘書長您確實是國會議事"},{"start":11382.483,"end":11383.264,"text":"請問秘書長,我們立法院有編足夠下年度的訴訟經費嗎?"},{"start":11411.451,"end":11439.342,"text":"沒有特別所以這個我要必須要了解大概因為主席處長是上一次的案啦他是有稍微考量大概我們邊的預算大概有些是可以好像可以做一個挪動但因為這一個科目上我還要必須要請教他才了解目前因為歐元可能問到這個可能因為NCC以前你的在那邊的一個經驗經驗啦那這個我倒沒有很"},{"start":11440.422,"end":11445.505,"text":"我並不是以NCC的經驗我是說以大法官這次做成的判決未來反正這個法案通過這民進黨委員也不需要等到這個法案施行一段時間之後然後才可以而且還要提案修法為國才能夠申請釋憲那以後他們動不動就釋憲呢我們預算案通過了他們不滿意立刻提起釋憲然後呢我們法案通過了之後不滿意立刻提起釋憲"},{"start":11467.819,"end":11481.129,"text":"所以我們立法院未來真的是我們的訴訟經費要擴編啊要增編啊否則是沒有辦法去滿足去應付無法應付民進黨委員動不動就來申請釋憲對這個部分其實提醒秘書長這個部分我們確實要顧慮到這次憲法裁判之後的後遺症還有呢就是這次大法官還做了一個"},{"start":11497.489,"end":11524.48,"text":"判決的這個理由讓我也是感到不可思議的大法官保障官員有說謊的權利尤其在國會的殿堂上面所以他做虛偽陳述他不提供資料他有任何的藐視國會的那樣行為完全都不可以科與他們的法律責任也不可以處罰他們這很有趣耶這看起來就是像保障政府官員在立法院是享有言論免責權的"},{"start":11526.769,"end":11533.913,"text":"他們說任何虛假、虛偽陳述的話可以不負責任在其他的法律裡面都沒有這樣的規定民事訴訟法或是其他行政法裡面你約選擇相關當事人來作證來提供文書可以提供假的可以說謊說假的"},{"start":11555.165,"end":11572.433,"text":"不客氣地講了,這批大法官真的是像外界所講的,就恐龍大法官,不接地氣,而且也完全沒有民主法制的政治的sense,連基本常識都沒有,更是摧毀了台灣的民主問責的制度。"},{"start":11573.888,"end":11594.856,"text":"很遺憾看到這樣的一個憲法裁判那但是我必須說秘書長您辛苦了尤其在這次的國會改革法案當中確實非常認真努力的在捍衛我們的意識的正當法律程序那在這邊還是要向您致敬好謝謝好謝謝翁委員謝謝周秘書長現在先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項均處理完畢為止"},{"start":11621.633,"end":11644.328,"text":"好,繼續我們邀請鐘嘉斌委員進行詢問主席、在場委員先進,列席人政委員長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請周秘書長,還有兩位律師,林律師跟李律師好,請周秘書長,兩位律師周委員好"},{"start":11645.194,"end":11667.525,"text":"好 呃 秘書長 你知不知道我們立法委員就任的時候要宣誓 有沒有 要嘛齁那我知道你當過考試委員 考試委員就職的時候要不要宣誓當然 當然要嘛齁那你知道我們的誓詞是什麼嗎你知道立法院的誓詞是什麼嗎"},{"start":11668.753,"end":11695.644,"text":"剛才吳委員有提出來,我也看稍微...你看了齁?於是以自成,克遵法令,對不對?阿你認為這個事實,我有沒有同意?我有同意。在場的每位理委都有同意,對不對?那有沒有...那你知道克遵法令,法令有沒有包括憲法?很好。那你就職,你現在是公務員,你是政務官,是不是?"},{"start":11696.721,"end":11722.852,"text":"那你擔任常任文官的時候,公務員要不要宣誓?公務員沒有宣誓嗎?公務員有宣誓的誓詞喔,要不要背給你聽?於事以至誠,克尊憲法,效忠國家。你有沒有宣誓過?對,但是你這個誓詞你知道吧?你要不要克尊憲法,效忠國家?"},{"start":11724.512,"end":11750.662,"text":"你說要或不要?你就說要或不要嗎?這麼簡單的事實你都簽署了嗎?當然公務員當然所有的公務連員一定是要遵守這個憲法克尊憲法效忠國家你同意嗎?包括你嗎?對不對?我是立法委員我是克尊國家法令盡忠職守當然這個法令包括憲法對不對?"},{"start":11751.602,"end":11780.243,"text":"所以我們在場的每一位只要是立法委員只要是公務員都要克遵憲法效忠國家你同意嗎?當然同意很好 謝謝來 我們請教兩位律師因為這個問題比較年輕啊兩位律師比較年輕在20年前有一個廣告就是一個小朋友問爸爸媽媽說爸爸媽媽什麼比草原還大?海洋啊海洋比草原還大那什麼比海洋還大呢?"},{"start":11781.42,"end":11810.677,"text":"天空比海洋大對不對那什麼比天空還大欸想像力比天空還大那什麼比想像還大呢我們家的炸雞比你想像還大你們看過這個廣告沒有沒有齁兩位都很年輕因為這個廣告呢20年前的事情啦齁好我們往下看來請問一下我們先問齁那個林律師齁如果人民不服一審判決他可不可以向高等法院申請上訴"},{"start":11812.176,"end":11815.119,"text":"李律師說可以,李律師呢?好,那我請教一下秘書長"},{"start":11839.366,"end":11864.448,"text":"民主黨,那如果我對於憲法法庭所做的釋憲判決,我不接受,我有不服從的餘地嗎?本身在185號本來他就要尊重...要尊重,不是要尊重,要遵行啊!你說稍微尊重,你說未編字題,你別忘了啊,你是公務員啊,你要不要克遵憲法?憲法法庭的判決要不要遵守?"},{"start":11865.373,"end":11867.715,"text":"請問,如果我們對這個事件判決,我們還是不滿意,它有沒有可能變更?有沒有可能變更?"},{"start":11887.472,"end":11889.693,"text":"施憲判決有沒有可能變更?只有事業機關能夠修訂憲判見解?"},{"start":11909.586,"end":11911.749,"text":"兩位律師,是不是只有四線機關能修訂憲判見解?"},{"start":11932.731,"end":11953.561,"text":"原則上是啊,他可以做補充的解釋。好,來,那林律師呢?是沒錯,其實是我們大法院很多事務上的問題。我們來看一下,98年4至656號解釋認為說,欸,要求人家登報強制道歉是合憲的。但是呢,到110年憲判2號呢,說什麼?他說,欸,這個是違憲的。兩位律師同意這樣的一個憲判見解的變遷嗎?就是過去是認為合憲,後來認為不合憲。"},{"start":11960.679,"end":11987.677,"text":"這個部分的話大法官如果認為說因為時空背景或者是對於條文的理解就憲法價值有所調整的話還是可以做那李律師呢是同意同意同意齁來周秘書長你覺得可不可以以這一次的例來講以這個例子來講以這個例來講這一次的憲法裁判來說我不是做憲法裁判我是問你98年的4字110年的憲判變更你覺得有沒有道理"},{"start":11989.02,"end":12017.868,"text":"我是這樣說 這樣這一次就把3、2、5號解釋了我沒有問你3、2、5號啦 我問你這一個案例啦我問你到98年的6、5、6後面110的憲判2號你認為大法官可不可以坐上變遷可不可以不是 因為你我就問你可不可以嘛你要逃避什麼這個憲法變遷可不可以嘛你問我是要先跟你說明你不用講前面我沒有問你都不問你不用說明啊我是問你這個可不可以"},{"start":12018.88,"end":12040.154,"text":"我個人也是認為他可以改變可以的好謝謝就是這樣簡單嘛只有事先機關能夠修訂他的憲判見解好我們趕快來看今天我們看到國民黨主席說什麼他說因為對國會改革的態度列為我們國民黨接下來大法官人事案的審判標準判決標準"},{"start":12043.035,"end":12058.075,"text":"好像老師說看到班上很多同學翹課對道場的同學大罵你們這些同學都不認真好奇怪喔憲判9113憲判9是現在大法官跟未來送來的7個大法官被提名什麼關係啊"},{"start":12061.345,"end":12073.608,"text":"請問兩位律師來李律師你認為朱主席說他把這個說以後的大法官要嚴審難道是要挑他合意的大法官去改變不合他意的憲判結果嗎你認為有沒有這樣的可能這個我不清楚對好很好很好來那個林律師你覺得他是意思是說我要因為我對這個憲判結果不滿意以後的大法官我要看他對國會改革的態度"},{"start":12089.031,"end":12092.435,"text":"請問一下兩位律師普通人敗訴可以換法官嗎?李律師普通人民法庭可以換法官嗎?"},{"start":12107.998,"end":12122.98,"text":"好 不行是吧 林律師普通人民辦事處該犯法官不行周民總我要告訴你齁國民黨啊只要憲判他不合他意啊他可以後面來犯法官啊國民黨不只比人民還大比你我的想像大"},{"start":12124.338,"end":12152.057,"text":"只有你想不到沒有他國會多數做不到的好我們現在看來我們直接來看內容這是憲法法庭的判決的幾個主要的國情報告、藐視國會、人事審查、聽證權、調查權這裡面有的是違憲有的是部分違憲我就不再一一細數啦來我們來一下國情報告是你情我願嗎?剛剛我們秘書長說現在國情報告是總統主動喔立法院只能被動這是憲判的意思嗎?是不是這樣?你剛剛是這樣講"},{"start":12154.267,"end":12181.158,"text":"什麼沒錯什麼是只有總統主動根本是雙方都可以表示但是接不接受在於對方總統可以硬要來立法院報告嗎可不可以總委我這樣報告好不好因為他是被動的情況因為兩方都沒有憲法的意義我先問你嘛總統要來報告立法院可不可以不接受可以可以立法院邀請總統報告總統可不可以不接受"},{"start":12182.955,"end":12207.186,"text":"什麼叫已經沒有,也是可以嘛不是違憲啦,來我們看一下喔來兩位大律師,剛剛我們有一個條文齁其實憲法,我們立法呢,第15條之一原條文是寫德啊但是修改之後呢,都變成因啦15條之一為什麼大法院說要判,說它違憲把德改成因李律師你的看法呢"},{"start":12210.684,"end":12228.807,"text":"我覺得問題點應該是在定義的問題如果我們不用主被動來說我覺得關鍵是在於沒有強制性沒有強制力嘛 對不對那林律師呢你認為原來憲判說15條之一不合違憲主要是把原來的15條之一的德改成因"},{"start":12230.191,"end":12245.796,"text":"對,我可以簡單講一點點請說這個部分其實會涉及到大法官在談這件事情的根本的原因他主要是在確保權利分立的部分他涉及到憲法機關的時候他認為憲法機關的權利義務應該由憲法來定而不是由立法院來定"},{"start":12246.956,"end":12269.627,"text":"所以在這一次之所以會被認為是違憲的狀況是因為立法院透過立法院職權行使法去增加憲法機關本來在憲法上所沒有的義務好來周國民黨聽清楚了齁這次會因為違憲是因為修法呢把增加的憲法機關沒有的義務好來我先問你我們立法院7月16號有沒有決議要邀請總統來做國會行報告"},{"start":12272.148,"end":12274.708,"text":"沒有決議的只有第15條之後的第二項去處理"},{"start":12301.116,"end":12307.726,"text":"現在我們還是可以邀請他啊我們可以根據我們憲法徵求條文可以邀請他來只是他同不同意他的事情啊 對不對"},{"start":12310.595,"end":12312.236,"text":"是不是這樣?來李律師是不是?"},{"start":12340.883,"end":12365.5,"text":"強制性而且不能指定範圍那林律師呢對我的理解是因為沒有強制性可是是可以邀請的對好那我們接下來往下看齁所以呢我們來看一下秘書長你不要忘了啦你仔細看啦3月21號你自己的對本委員的報告你說什麼前階委員提案就是指翁委員的提案啦現行總統國情報告有所不同除了將德改成因"},{"start":12366.34,"end":12388.91,"text":"一而語前述憲法正條文第4條第3用語不符啊你也講了嘛我們的修法就是把德改成因所以你就暗示了還有呢你說是不是說國情報告的詢答方式美國、法國未見才及時問答你就告訴大家啦其他國家也沒有及時問答你有沒有這樣講過"},{"start":12390.202,"end":12390.922,"text":"來 李律師 憲判9"},{"start":12414.597,"end":12427.482,"text":"他說這個調查權是不是限定於院會不得交由委員會來行使來請問李律師好了李律師你比較近沒有錯嘛李律師你認為未來我們委員會可不可以行使調查權委員會要以院會的決議行之好秘書長"},{"start":12437.916,"end":12466.141,"text":"這是我們未來要對特定的議題啊來判斷有沒有重大關聯這是我們後續修法上必須研究的好 那我請教一下目前我們已經成立哪些調查小組委員會成集我剛才已經報告過已經是交通跟經濟啊好 你我問你你跟他報告我現在問你你跟我講啊有交通跟經濟好不好那這兩個委員這兩個委員成立的調查組還能運作嗎我會請幕僚跟召集委報告報告什麼可不可以運作"},{"start":12467.366,"end":12485.407,"text":"他會依照憲政的觀念去跟他報告我現在是問你嘛可不可以 有沒有效 要不要繼續運作我只能跟中委員報告我們的幕僚會依照憲法的意思 你是中委員 你要客追憲法你的上次的報告也講了 那可不可以繼續運作"},{"start":12487.691,"end":12487.831,"text":"人事審查規定合憲?"},{"start":12506.618,"end":12521.872,"text":"日程的規定要不得少於一個月要五天前這個有沒有合憲程序上並沒有違憲很好 程序上沒有違憲所以所以不能消息的不審查或打發為全部否決那如果說是這樣子做的話有沒有違憲"},{"start":12524.005,"end":12526.487,"text":"新法下這些沒有違憲的部分的審查時間較長有沒有 你們已經評估要花多少時間了 有沒有評估過"},{"start":12552.523,"end":12570.916,"text":"因為他剛才我報告過因為他婚別所以我們真的在計算幕僚沒有權利跟你一定要確定哪裡我們會有作用的我們會在計算決定流程需要花多少時間可不可以先算一下可能要花兩個月還是花多少最少的時間有沒有算過因為政府要在婚別要按到麥克風啦"},{"start":12575.226,"end":12595.424,"text":"主要在分別的處理的時候到底要多久不過他有規定在一個月內最低的時間嘛對請你把最低的下限時間算出來好不好一個星期內給本委員會也可以好可以謝謝我們往下一題走好議事處處長吧高處長你就把以前那一個整理資料給來兩位律師你認為這是憲判的理由書當中"},{"start":12599.697,"end":12622.194,"text":"憲法法庭認為我們這次的擴權法案立法程序有沒有瑕疵請問林律師你認為在憲判主文當中有沒有說有瑕疵從憲判主文沒有特別提到可是你看理由的部分的話他其實是有具體的提到他認為是有瑕疵有在71段73段跟75段那李律師呢你認為憲法法庭是不是認為我們這個立法有瑕疵"},{"start":12623.444,"end":12640.157,"text":"立法程序有瑕疵只是沒有到最出現的程度秘書長,你是不是同意雖有瑕疵但未到違憲的程度?呃,我不認為啊,你是認為違憲?呃,我不認為,因為你要問我的說法對啊,我說是不是有瑕疵但未達違憲的程度,你說你不認為,那認為你是認為違憲囉?"},{"start":12641.038,"end":12658.905,"text":"我是這樣認為 國會有自立的規則國立有自己定定的規則所以有沒有瑕疵沒有瑕疵我個人認為沒有瑕疵OK好 你個人認為沒有瑕疵不要忘了 你說你要克尊憲法憲判只有四憲機關能夠變更請你記住你剛剛講的話謝謝 我剛剛也講過問題主要的結論"},{"start":12667.194,"end":12687.851,"text":"請準備議事規程的日程．對於人事案處理．一週內提給本會．讓我們了解根據新法未迴憲的部分．最低下限要做的施程．可以嗎．好．那至於第二個說要檢討可能的議事瑕疵．既然你不認同．不接受．不服從．不認為你必須按照公務人員誓詞當中克遵憲法．那我也沒有你的辦法．謝謝好 謝謝莊嘉賓委員的詢答"},{"start":12697.778,"end":12721.555,"text":"我們接下來有請吳昭偉中線質詢主席我現在要做會議詢問主要是剛剛因為我看就是翁委員他剛剛有提到就是說這次請律師來被法律人士代表對對對沒問題齁"},{"start":12724.734,"end":12741.076,"text":"這部分我只要講一個啦因為你剛剛跟他說說上個禮拜我的做法嘛對不對我要先解釋一下第一個上個禮拜我們在就刑事訴訟法在討論刑事訴訟法修法的問題的時候權力會他們希望來表示意見"},{"start":12742.421,"end":12755.821,"text":"他們是希望來這邊表示一下所以當天他們也是提了一個書面那你不能拿我的這個例子來說今天請律師來這邊陪著你們一搭一唱這個是用我當作例子啊完全不一樣的東西嘛"},{"start":12757.368,"end":12785.454,"text":"趙偉你那天請的律師我們沒辦法跟他一搭一唱阿因為他根本沒有出現阿一開始的時候沒有看到阿不是他們來不可能我們用像這樣子詢問的方式所以你不能用我當例子好不好尊重趙偉上週的做法我是說不能用我我跟你講我們是有這個你是依照憲法第67條我也是一樣對沒有錯但是我的意思是跟你說你不要拿我這個說什麼我們上個禮拜也請因為上個禮拜他們來上個禮拜我們也上個禮拜你也同意說讓我排公聽會阿"},{"start":12787.034,"end":12808.768,"text":"來這個是第二件我要說的事情那第二個我覺得不管是你或吳思堯剛剛都在那邊亂講一些話我覺得如果你們的記憶力這麼差是不是可以去調一下上個禮拜我們開會的全部的全程來看上個禮拜我一再說一件事情就是你要怎麼排那是你家的事情我不會干涉"},{"start":12809.488,"end":12829.193,"text":"跟我同意有什麼關係我從來沒有認同你們排甚至上禮拜我在院會你希望我們簽同意我也不同意阿我說你自己去問副總召阿那你怎麼可以你跟吳思耀兩個在這邊亂扯說是我們同意你們這麼做你不同意就好啦其實不同意我們就不能排啦所以本週是沒有排阿"},{"start":12829.853,"end":12844.899,"text":"不是 你們的說法 剛剛吳思耀的說法是說我們就像你剛剛也說我同意嘛 你剛剛也這樣講 那我的意思是說我們從來沒有一個人同意過 所以你們不能講這種話 我今天在論的只是是非"},{"start":12845.899,"end":12868.188,"text":"我們沒有人講過這句話我也沒有講過這句話所以請我們都是同事可不可以麻煩你們在講話的時候不要造謠亂說話我今天是希望這樣就像我不會在外面去亂講你沒有講過的話一樣你剛剛這個畫面有說你不同意排公廳剛剛講的你也不同意好這樣可以了我同意我知道了你剛剛有講阿不是阿我跟你講齁"},{"start":12869.5,"end":12896.788,"text":"我覺得你們最奇怪的事情就是說我好了啦好啦你最奇怪的事情就是說我們沒有講過的話你沒有講過的話我為什麼來好那請你聽我講這一句話嘛你說你要排公聽會我說那是你的事情跟我在那邊跟大家說我不要排公聽會這兩個國文這麼難懂嗎剛剛就在剛才一分鐘前你就說你也不同意我這個心情排公聽會啊你有講啊"},{"start":12897.864,"end":12924.941,"text":"你剛剛講喔現在現在剛剛我說你排不排公聽會是你的事情上個禮拜我在會議中還講了我不是你的長官不是我叫你要不要做你要做什麼事情那是你的事你是召委你就排你的議程我是召委我就排我的議程這個東西怎麼會變成是我這樣子上個禮拜叫做同意你排公聽會現在叫做我不同意你排公聽會你剛剛是講這句話你說你不同意我這週排公聽會"},{"start":12926.343,"end":12944.281,"text":"我沒有講這個話啦好吧那我跟你講沒關係就回去聽嘛我如果我口誤我道歉但我在這邊跟你講我剛剛從頭到我並沒有說我不同意三個字我的意思很簡單就是你要排那是你的事情跟我們無關我從上個禮拜就講過了所以請不要"},{"start":12946.069,"end":12971.685,"text":"各位委員 大家都是同事請不要造謠或亂扯一些事情這真的沒有這個必要沒關係 這真的沒有這個必要那我也不是對今天到場的兩位律師有意見我爸爸也是律師我對律師完全沒有仇恨值但是我們都知道律師收錢辦事天經地義所以一個民事庭裡面對同一個法律關係兩兆的律師會講不一樣的見解"},{"start":12973.266,"end":12973.386,"text":"請周秘書長"},{"start":12992.369,"end":13014.417,"text":"那我用我自己的時間,我還是覺得我還是很不喜...謝謝秘書長謝謝秘書長我還是這樣講啦我是認為說把別人的話去抄議或者是把別人的話我就睜眼說瞎話你今天已經到這邊來已經是國家最高的民意機關了到這邊來還會去做這些事情我說"},{"start":13016.038,"end":13040.635,"text":"至少我個人會對自己要求我不這麼做至於其他的同事他們要這麼做我們也無能為力因為個人修養是在於個人至少我就說我很堅持一件事情我如果口誤說錯話我會道歉但是我自己的見解怎麼樣從上週到本週我從來沒有講過一句話說你要開不開我說你要怎麼排"},{"start":13041.736,"end":13050.065,"text":"遭委要怎麼排那個就是遭委的事我是遭委我排我的你是遭委你排你其實我一直這樣講嘛那至於至於說"},{"start":13052.729,"end":13077.498,"text":"從剛剛我也沒有說你不能排或你要排你不能排所以總是被抄議喔這是很辛苦或是大家有興趣就是自己鬼扯完之後就剪那一段然後在網路上面去洗地我真的覺得沒有必要就像我至少我到今天為止我在這裡各位委員各位同事我也從來沒有說請把你們的話去抄議然後回過頭來攻擊你們至少我會做這樣子啦"},{"start":13080.187,"end":13101.482,"text":"我覺得讀書人還是要有讀書人的風骨讀書人不能去做那種事情那我剛剛質詢請律師來的這個事情其實我是說我對律師真的沒有任何仇恨因為我從小就在律師的家庭長大那律師本來就是為他的當事人講話這也是一定要的但是我只是覺得說如果這樣子的話"},{"start":13103.237,"end":13131.594,"text":"立法委員應該自己要有一點自信而不是說今天質詢什麼可能覺得是不是自己專業度不夠然後要請律師來幫忙一起圍毆官員這個是大可不必我還相信每個律師或每個官員都是學有專精都是社會上面的人才但是還是這樣我還是依據立法委員該做什麼適合去做那其實"},{"start":13132.597,"end":13155.022,"text":"這一次的憲判字我還是有個感覺就是大法官真的打造出全世界民主國家裡面最弱的國會真的是最弱的國會這對國家是福還是禍這個我也不知道我也不敢下定論至少我知道一件事情就是民主政治就是責任政治為基礎"},{"start":13156.385,"end":13175.365,"text":"所以民主它本來就要建立在責任政治之上那如果有一個人是有權無責那就是這是這個其實在獨裁國家才會展現但今天我們看到就是說拿了五權憲法一堆東西在那邊繞啊繞然後就是希望說把一些人能夠獨特出他是有權力但是沒有責任"},{"start":13176.926,"end":13202.752,"text":"其實大法官這次似乎一直在朝這個方向去走那甚至你今天你自己去看大法官裡面的一些不同意見書啦其實有些大法官他是有一些不一樣的想法甚至在2016年以前民進黨對於這次國會改革法案的提出如果這個東西是明顯就像民進黨整天講說是禍國殃民違憲的話那顧立雄啊林佳龍他們的版本是他也要出來道歉"},{"start":13205.035,"end":13230.888,"text":"我認為不是這樣 我覺得我們今天所作所為還是要思考怎麼樣對下一代真的有幫助那才是重點 而不是說我們今天志祺的位置怎麼樣尤其是這一次我們國會對於政府的監督這在民主國家的國會是常態 但放到台灣卻變成危險我想秘書長你一定很清楚這個我先跟秘書長請教一下"},{"start":13233.294,"end":13260.973,"text":"這一次的民進黨總是告訴青鳥說是他對我攻擊最大的兩件事第一個說我們主持會議黑箱立法沒有討論沒有民主第二個說我們什麼不懂什麼叫反質詢就這兩個東西這次大法官都認定至少認定核限我不要說大法官育月宿外裁判育月講了一些什麼程序怎麼樣那個我不管那至少在我看來民進黨就是騙了他的支持者嘛"},{"start":13261.713,"end":13280.364,"text":"沒有黑箱他說有黑箱阿有討論他說沒有討論阿我想請問一下秘書長這次憲判字有認為說我們這次的那個修法的程序有違憲嗎我剛才特別 剛才中委員在詢問的時候我有特別說明"},{"start":13282.486,"end":13297.347,"text":"依照國會治理的規則當然本身其他的機關對於國會治理當然他就要極簡就不應該去說明但就以我所理解的例子當時我已經在當考試委員"},{"start":13301.356,"end":13326.173,"text":"監察院院長陳菊在被監察院人事同意群的時候賴香林委員曾經申請釋憲當時也是非常紛亂也沒有經過之前刑事法的規範當時的大法官15個當中目前有11個在當時他認為這一個本身是國會治理不宜受理"},{"start":13327.056,"end":13328.537,"text":"因為舉手表決不可能會記載藝術力當中是哪一個人贊成或反對"},{"start":13354.895,"end":13372.598,"text":"依照一里丸一式規則35條的規定舉手表決本來就是這一個表決的方式之一那我要在另外一個跟吳委員報告我所學的概念修憲的程序跟法律的審議程序是不一樣的"},{"start":13373.579,"end":13389.462,"text":"所以499號跟33號解釋是完全不是相同的謝謝秘書長我想說這部分其實非常的清楚啦所有的程序其實至少我組織之下我有把所有程序走完因為我自己從以前過往的經驗我是非常重視程序正義的"},{"start":13390.103,"end":13417.254,"text":"我們自己學法也都知道程序是優先於實體所以所有的程序我們都走完那大法官至少也認定說至少沒有違憲的問題那至於說還有人還想說什麼黑箱立法跟沒有討論沒有民主我覺得算了政治員我也不多說但是這一次其實討論裡面講最多話的就是民進黨的立法委員們他們講了1068分鐘這我們已經有量化出來遠遠超過其他的政黨"},{"start":13418.615,"end":13434.635,"text":"我也沒有辦法理解這樣另外我剛剛補充一個剛剛我們的中召委有問那兩個大律師就是說敗訴可以換法官應該是中召委不是吳思堯應該是中召委其實我必須講一個這可能對於輸送程序不是那麼了解敗訴都已經判決確定沒有換法官的問題"},{"start":13435.556,"end":13461.701,"text":"換法官只有在訴訟中申請迴避我這沒有別的意思我說這可能總統這邊剛剛口誤了一下我來跟大家解釋敗訴後沒有所謂換法官的問題這是一個很簡單的程序概念其實我們這一次我們看一下總統他可以任命行政院長到立法院做一些施政報告然後也可以設立一堆委員會還可以打電話罵部長但是現在的問題就出在說"},{"start":13464.289,"end":13490.551,"text":"這個總統是有權無責啊因為這次大法官憲判他直接引用行政院的申請書他說總統是對人民負責不是對立法院負責結果我們現在完全對他沒有任何沒有辦法去監督他那國內有非常多的議題啦結果我們現在也沒有辦法去了解他到底他心裡現在在想什麼那至於說來不來國情報告我覺得這個在國慶晚會他就可以講也不一定說一定要來這裡講"},{"start":13492.554,"end":13521.383,"text":"那這次詹森林大法官啊他離開我覺得就跟那兩位NCC委員離開的時候一樣說了一些真心話那他這次有講一個很重要的點因為我國的總統他不是虛位元首啊所以不是虛位元首的話他本來就像我剛剛講的民主政治他必須要以責任政治當作基礎這是所有學法律學公法人都理解的一個罪A、B、C那剛剛吳斯耀委員其實他講了很多這個東西但他講的都是一些知為末節"},{"start":13522.483,"end":13536.828,"text":"藝術最後操作最後端的東西但是最根本的邏輯他從來不講但是沒關係這就是他的水準我已經習慣了他其實真的不懂法律但他會把法律當作小說在那邊講那事實上"},{"start":13540.171,"end":13561.733,"text":"這次詹姓大法官他所提的這個東西其實就是一個核心的問題因為我們今天面對的是一個有實權的總統但是我們對他卻毫無任何能夠監督他的方式那這一次憲判字也有講到說罷免案是要全民投票彈劾案是司法院大法官的憲法法庭審理"},{"start":13562.654,"end":13587.883,"text":"所以都不是立法院可以直接對總統行使的職權但是我必須要講提醒這些大法官們或他的信徒們憲法徵修條文第二條講到的罷免案跟彈劾案其實都是立法院或立法院提出的怎麼會跟立法院無關呢他怎麼會是隨便去扯那個什麼罷免案是全民投票彈劾案是憲法法庭審理所以跟立法院無關"},{"start":13590.341,"end":13592.242,"text":"這就是我們目前大法官希望國家設計出來的一個民主制度"},{"start":13617.962,"end":13635.54,"text":"我覺得這樣下去,台灣的總統就變成是超級皇帝了因為他可以做任何事情,但是沒有任何人可以對他怎麼樣這一次其實我們還有一個東西也是開民主倒車"},{"start":13638.544,"end":13662.62,"text":"我們當初4至585號其實有提到一個就是說你違反協助調查義務就可以科與罰款結果585號有這個記載結果呢我們這一次卻更誇張的是你來你看喔你不來我可以科罰結果你來了講謊話欸不可以罰所以這個邏輯在哪裡我不懂"},{"start":13663.601,"end":13683.238,"text":"民眾在外面的時候說謊要負責任在法庭拒絕後說謊要負責任結果官員到立法院來說謊完全不用負責任然後你再回過頭去看民進黨最愛的日本跟美國的設計模式所以"},{"start":13684.458,"end":13705.211,"text":"我在想民進黨花太多時間在那邊製造風向去洗腦他自己的支持者其實如果今天一個負責任的修法態度你就把其他國家類似的民主國家的制度拿出來給大家看大家來比較我們在寫論文的時候各國的比較不是就是一個"},{"start":13706.132,"end":13706.252,"text":"更何況"},{"start":13721.38,"end":13738.746,"text":"我剛提到的2016年以前這些東西很多都是民進黨這些前輩們所提出來的我自己在念書的時候我很崇拜他們這些理念就今天我們想要實踐的時候卻變成我們迴憲亂整卻被當初我崇拜的那些前輩們來說我們這樣做是錯的這個喔好那"},{"start":13748.986,"end":13777.534,"text":"這次蔡財臻大法官他其實也有提到這個啦他也是提到說不來可以罰來了說謊卻不可以罰連蔡大法官他也提出這個那甚至我們這次的修法搞到比585號更嚴格而且比325號也更限縮其實完全都在走一個民主的倒車啦這其實這也都是讓我們其實看了很難過的一個地方"},{"start":13778.905,"end":13808.088,"text":"那我在這邊還跟議長也是提一個東西就是說這跟我們立法院有關其實這一次有說我們把那個官員我們移送監察院他說這個是違反權利分立事實上大家有沒有去看司法院可以移送考試院可以移送行政院可以移送那為什麼另外三個院移送就沒有違反權利分立呢而且這一次的"},{"start":13808.973,"end":13831.207,"text":"那個大法官,曾大法官他也有提到他說這個所謂的移送是促使監察院窒息啊他說他認為說怎麼大法官會直接認定這個違憲連曾大法官也覺得怎麼會認定這個違憲所以連自己大法官內部也都覺得不以為然嘛所以我就說"},{"start":13832.621,"end":13840.847,"text":"這次有人在那邊說什麼誰是違憲三保或什麼之類的那難道其他這幾位大法官是四保五保六保嗎?其實當然"},{"start":13842.569,"end":13866.539,"text":"這兩天都有人在問我這個問題啦那基本上我是不回答說什麼違憲三法我覺得法律本來就是一個各種學說的討論但是如果你把法律當成小說或是完全沒有法律概念的出來指責那其實任何法律人都不用覺得難過因為他就是回應他就是浪費生命而已所以我不認同這個他的這個想法那所以"},{"start":13867.605,"end":13892.176,"text":"我還是認為其實我們國家法規資料庫裡面能夠移送監察院的條文其實有15條有15條都可以移送但是呢這次卻認為只有立法院移送這個是違憲那這樣子是不是其他院移送的條文也應該認定違憲若依照這次大法官的這個那我想這是一個很持平的論斷所以我是拿其他的法規我們出來這樣子談"},{"start":13893.797,"end":13914.093,"text":"那更何況說監察院這幾年的做法其實讓我們也都滿嘆為觀止的那甚至有監察委員對於檢察官懲辦案件進行二度的彈劾嘛一追再追其實這個才是真的有問題嘛你監察權就直接介入檢察官偵辦案件"},{"start":13915.233,"end":13934.829,"text":"好吧那最後齁所以我想說雖然今天有很多委員都講超過時間很多但是我想我最後我還是提一個東西啦就是我還是回過頭去提到康大法官他之前在課堂上面所提的那個例子這在youtube上面或是很多法律學生都看過這個例子"},{"start":13936.505,"end":13954.694,"text":"五權憲法的運作其實就是你就把人品想像是五條狗的主人那這五條狗就是所謂的這五權那其實五權憲法的設計就是讓這五隻狗彼此互相咬對方但是都傷不了對方但是能夠互相的制衡"},{"start":13956.138,"end":13974.534,"text":"但如果今天有一條狗特別的強壯把另外四條狗都咬死了那改天他就回過頭來把主人吃掉這是湯大法官在學對學生上課的時候他所提到的因為我們不允許極權極權是非常恐怖的"},{"start":13975.254,"end":13988.832,"text":"今天為什麼世界上民主國家都是三權分立或我國五權分立他要的就是各權之間彼此的制衡而不是塑造出一個沒有任何能夠監督他的一個行政權今天不管誰執政"},{"start":13991.088,"end":14005.98,"text":"今天不管誰執政我們都還是覺得權力彼此制衡是非常重要而且這是憲法的基本概念不能被完成說一個國家變成集權而且沒有任何人能夠監督他所以我想說因為湯大法官這個"},{"start":14007.635,"end":14034.634,"text":"這例子齁雖然說把五權用狗來形容可能有人會做文章但我就是如實的引用當大法官所舉的這例子我也希望說全民能夠了解五權彼此是要互相制衡而不是像今天走向這樣子今天如果走向這樣子改天如果有發生萬一發生政黨輪替下一個政黨也是很恐怖的用極權來統治這個國家這絕對是我們不願意見到的不管今天是我"},{"start":14035.575,"end":14035.995,"text":"接下來有請羅委員志強詢答"},{"start":14071.553,"end":14086.582,"text":"主席有請周秘書長秘書長你知道封建時代的暴君在打敗政敵以後最喜歡做什麼事情嗎?"},{"start":14090.418,"end":14118.748,"text":"他喜歡把政敵的首級掛在市場、廣場上去展示那為什麼要把敵人的首級掛在廣場上去示眾呢?為什麼?代表他的這個權威嗎?非常好,代表他的權威兩個意義我是勝利者,你被我踩在腳底下了第二個,向反對者示威這就是敢和我作對的下場"},{"start":14119.994,"end":14143.323,"text":"那請問周秘書長你知道你今天為什麼被火速傳召到這邊來報告嗎我不太理解不過基於這個幕僚貴會主席要求我們一定要依照規定一定要來備選秘書長是謙謙君子所以主席傳召你就來"},{"start":14144.574,"end":14167.257,"text":"我告訴你,你就是民進黨用大法官斬首立法院拿出來示威示眾的那顆人頭今天找你來就是來示威的所以我要說辛苦周秘書長被民進黨拿來當作耀武揚威的人頭接下來我要特別向我們的主席致敬"},{"start":14168.482,"end":14196.356,"text":"我們今天的中嘉賓主席真的是讓我開了眼界活生生把天龍八部裡面丁春秋新宿派的場景搬到司法法制委員會我佩服他為我們新宿黨的掌門人清德老仙搭了一場馬屁大會的場就算了我們新宿黨還自帶BGM自帶背景音樂自帶背景的NPC"},{"start":14197.977,"end":14218.736,"text":"來陪你們耀武揚威啊把我們周秘書長找來齁要消守市眾的同時還找兩個幫新宿黨在市縣辯護的律師來這邊當BGM和新宿黨立委吳思瑤跟鍾嘉斌一搭一唱一起大合唱啊好悅耳啊"},{"start":14219.847,"end":14233.859,"text":"我耳邊想起一陣口號啦清德老先法力無邊神通廣大法駕國會啊聽了我都好想要加入新宿黨啊不知道現在來得及找人來推薦一下啦"},{"start":14234.741,"end":14260.16,"text":"看到我們宗嘉賓這麼賣力的演出我真的是覺得他跟天龍八部那個新宿派大弟子大師兄翟新子有87%的相似 佩服他我也為我們清德老先感到欣慰我真的很想在立法院提案端請清德老先把宗嘉賓封為大弟子讓我們所有新宿黨的立委好好學習宗嘉賓拍馬屁的本領"},{"start":14262.369,"end":14285.672,"text":"我會跟各位講為什麼我這樣說當然啦主席要排案怎麼排案是主席的事主席也不要牽托吳宗憲吳宗憲上次請來的律師他們希望針對公眾案件表達意見也只是列席而已沒有上台這邊開始大吹法螺啦幫民進黨大吹法螺啦"},{"start":14287.245,"end":14311.921,"text":"今天過來找那邊幹嘛呢就是來幫忙大催法輪啊因為最簡單的問題今天在國會裡面如果真的是一個公正的主席以及要找幫行政院事先辯護的BGM上來事先辯護的律師上來那你為什麼不找今天認為國會改革是合憲的所謂的律師跟教授上來"},{"start":14313.334,"end":14337.551,"text":"葉靖遠律師你找了沒林石猛律師你找了沒展貴美教授你找了沒他們都是認為今天國會改革合憲的你找兩個人你其中一個讓今天另外一方的意見在我們立法院的這個場域就像公聽會公聽會如果辦的話絕對不是找單方單照啦找單方單照就是你心虛嘛"},{"start":14341.86,"end":14368.978,"text":"我也委屈那兩位律師啊你們是被迫來做BGM的我知道你們也不願意可是今天把那律師搞成你的背景音樂搞成今天新宿派的小仙們來幫清德老仙來大吹法螺宗嘉賓你真的是我佩服你啦非常佩服你接下來我就有一些關於憲法判決的問題要就教於周秘書長"},{"start":14370.762,"end":14397.22,"text":"這一次大法官幾乎把所有上個會期國會改革的法案包括聽證調查包括對官員說謊可以處罰的這些條文都宣布為違憲當然板凳式忠貞也看到了一些大法官有不同的意見我就要就教一下周秘書長三森林大法官說他說總統的國情報告"},{"start":14401.111,"end":14422.578,"text":"總統的就職跟國慶演說也沒有在憲法明文規定但已經成為目前的慣例因此在總統到立法院國情報告在不強制的情況下只針對施行細節入法因屬合憲判定違憲會讓大法官陷入政治紛爭我不知道秘書長你認不認同這句話"},{"start":14423.338,"end":14449.397,"text":"我拜讀過,我是認為他有他的一個對這一個的看法是,我很佩服因為我可以再補充一句沒問題,秘書長因為權力婚例,我是整個拜讀過的裡面我對於朱大法官、朱美大法官所提的一個概念是我長期在自己也教書我是一個權力婚例還要包括制服"},{"start":14450.057,"end":14460.699,"text":"這check and maintenance是任何人都會理解的一個事情沒錯所以我在朱鎂鎂大法官在引述的時候我拜讀以後我是非常讚佩他"},{"start":14461.345,"end":14482.501,"text":"我覺得秘書長你講的也是我心裡的話朱鳳梅大法官說針對公務人員於調查聽證人事同意權審查所提供的資料必須本於事實否則會影響公共利益若違反時適當處罰可以維護行政權的行使秘書長你覺得這句話怎麼樣就是你剛剛講的很認同啊不是我要跟秘書長說"},{"start":14490.543,"end":14504.629,"text":"我今天為大法官感到可悲的是我必須說朱富美大法官這句話簡直就是常識啊就是小時候你的老師你的爸爸媽媽告訴你不要說謊今天竟然我們的大法官說針對在國會說謊的官員處罰是違憲的"},{"start":14513.291,"end":14537.197,"text":"我跟你講我真的覺得不可思議啦所以我一來佩服朱費爾大法官的他的這個所謂的不同意的意見書另外一方面我真的也是感到真的是竟然可以到這麼簡單的事情我們大法官這一次留下兩個世界典範啦第一個就是說謊官員就是高風亮節的新數黨代表啦"},{"start":14538.086,"end":14558.782,"text":"只要說謊官員今天在國會上勇於說謊就是我們新宿黨的表率啊不就這個意思從今而後官員不說謊就是失職啊大法官幫你開了一條大紅毯啊大紅地毯啊歡迎上來說謊啊不就這個意思你說謊免責啊說謊沒事啊"},{"start":14562.179,"end":14585.706,"text":"另外我也看到包括我們這個詹森林大法官也講啊質詢跟提供文件具有相同意義是讓立法院在監督時有更多的依據不應該將被質詢人提供文件的調查行為視為違憲我真的覺得很痛苦的原因是什麼詹森林大法官這段話"},{"start":14587.267,"end":14593.49,"text":"真的也不是什麼高深莫測的一些法律監視的用語就是大白話連這麼簡單的事情大法官今天可以違背公眾的一個想法來宣布違憲"},{"start":14602.83,"end":14617.415,"text":"你以為就是今天我很欣賞也佩服才是有大法官今天不願同流合污啊勇敢做出不同意見書但為什麼這些大法官這樣講呢我接下來就下一個來針對國際的狀況來就教於秘書長各國官員在國會虛偽陳述很多都是有罰則的因為國會是個憲政機關的神聖殿堂"},{"start":14629.881,"end":14630.201,"text":"好 我想請教"},{"start":14645.18,"end":14661.691,"text":"英國的規定是任何在國會作出虛假陳述誤導行政監察或使行使調查權之人適同藐視法庭相應職責最高監禁兩年或並科罰金請問英國這個規定是反民主的規定嗎?"},{"start":14663.888,"end":14684.509,"text":"我要跟羅委員報告,法治局針對這個裡面,因為為了我寫裡面先進國家有先例吧,有一些立法例,所以我想說大概委員會質疑,這裡引用的英國、德國、法國、美國、日本、韓國的相關法規都有。"},{"start":14685.89,"end":14687.912,"text":"美國也是以偽證罪起訴最高監禁5年我想問我們秘書長美國的規定反民主嗎?"},{"start":14702.28,"end":14725.97,"text":"說謊官員要處罰是反民主的嗎?是啊!然後日本也是啊!日本是虛偽陳述可以處3月以上10年以下有期徒刑韓國宣誓之證人或鑑定人做虛偽陳述一年以上10年以下有期徒刑那我想請問日本韓國這些規定都是反民主的嗎?顯然不是啊!"},{"start":14727.41,"end":14750.542,"text":"這都是民主國家 其實我跟秘書長講 我真的也懂了一件事情我們講民主國家來去談這件事情 大法官都荒謬我特地是覺得是羞辱民主國家這四個字官員不該在國會說謊 簡直不用用民主原則來講啦這叫做人做事的基本道理都可以講啦"},{"start":14752.81,"end":14768.341,"text":"你這天才的新宿黨民進黨這個新宿黨你就可以找得到說新宿黨的BGM上來可以幫你辯護說官員可以說謊你國會處罰官員說謊是大不敬啊怎麼會有這種黨啊你要泯滅自己從小到大是非價值判斷到什麼程度你才有辦法做出這樣的一個宣誓啊"},{"start":14778.888,"end":14797.411,"text":"所以真的全部加入新宿派好了那清德真的直接公佈說你就是丁春秋然後宗家兵當宅新子當大弟子最適合那每天就開始清德老先法力無邊吹下去就有一天大皇帝啦然後接下來我們來看齁一樣啊這告示獎說謊官員啊違反聽證調查的一些罰則不管是英國德國法國韓國"},{"start":14808.7,"end":14837.114,"text":"都有吧?都有罰則吧?我上次大概在立法院執行的時候我們法治局有後會對於這一部分有做一個相當大的資料給各位看蕭敏帥你那份資料有給大家幫助很大不會讓說今天台灣民眾變成是民進黨蒙蔽下井底之蛙啦能夠讓他看看全世界國家怎麼規定所以才能夠顯現出今天大法官的荒謬"},{"start":14839.537,"end":14841.878,"text":"就是其他國家都不是這樣做的當然我們現在國會要這麼做大法官竟然說違憲更可恥的是什麼我跟秘書長說來我想請教一下你以為只有這些其他的國家有這些規定嗎"},{"start":14858.444,"end":14883.903,"text":"我們的民進黨的林佳龍當立委的時候他也曾經做過虛偽陳述執行文件調查公聽會為虛偽陳述或提出內容虛偽不實要處一年以下有期徒刑科一百萬以下罰金請問林佳龍是憲政獨流嗎?是憲政獨龍嗎?他提這個是反民主反憲政是違憲的嗎?林佳龍是憲政獨流嗎?還是憲政獨龍?"},{"start":14886.992,"end":14889.015,"text":"民進黨在2016年的所謂的這個國會改革版本裡面也針對虛偽陳述有提出行政處罰的規定"},{"start":14906.417,"end":14908.138,"text":"最後我真的是語重心長我知道今天秘書長為什麼要找你來啦"},{"start":14931.206,"end":14952.809,"text":"民進黨的慣性就這樣大法官變我手中的屠龍刀必逆天下我斬了你立法院的手跟腳你以為這樣就夠了沒有啦依我大民進黨的風範我今天當然要召開一個報告把立法院被砍斷的手腳放到桌上啊大家看看啊"},{"start":14955.305,"end":14980.86,"text":"就把周秘書長你叫來就讓大家看看我民進黨的威風啊大法官任我驅策唯我處狗啊帥啊民進黨啊威啊民進黨啊就是展現威風就這麼簡單今天這場報告坦白講我也不認為有太大意義原因是什麼因為只有一個最重要的意義就讓民進黨來耍威風啊還找兩個BGM來上來開始吹法螺啊"},{"start":14982.071,"end":15004.873,"text":"不然周嘉賓為什麼主席先不要站起來你剛剛多講三分鐘我要示範一下我會講足你那三分鐘你剛剛有多講三分鐘你自己當主席有多講我就要回頭講阿如果周嘉賓真的有稍微一點點點點一根毛的公證今天坐在底下就不會只有兩個BGM阿"},{"start":15006.909,"end":15008.49,"text":"我們本週式的公聽會有請三個黨員同意後我們會來邀請"},{"start":15034.505,"end":15044.049,"text":"你有沒有在今天正常邀請葉慶元?有還是沒有?剛剛你只問今天不是公聽會今天不是公聽會,今天是委員會沒有嘛今天是專報沒有嘛我不管是公聽會跟專報,我剛剛講過啊鍾佳濱有一根毛的公正性,你都會找不同意見兩方來啦你為什麼不找就心虛嘛你還有會議詢問,我怕會議詢問羞辱你,應該又答不出來"},{"start":15061.394,"end":15082.573,"text":"你有沒有邀請掌櫃妹?今天?我不是講公聽會公聽會怎麼邀請?你一直邀兩趙啦你的三分鐘快到了沒關係沒關係 會議詢問啊時間暫停沒有沒有暫停啦啦啦會議詢問你在超時詢問當中我跟妳回答中央秘書幹報你上次會議詢問四次了我都幫你算喔通通沒佔時間喔上次你不是主席"},{"start":15082.893,"end":15083.874,"text":"接下來我們請政委員天才詢答"},{"start":15120.34,"end":15136.814,"text":"主席、各位委員其實我很不忍心請秘書長不過還是要請你來請座秘書長因為今天的主題啊113年憲判字第9號判決國會行使職權之困境與未來專題報告就立法院而言國會行使職權"},{"start":15150.373,"end":15178.893,"text":"的困境與未來是我們立法委員才可以提案秘書長你們只是幕僚單位所以這個部分請你來專題報告也是很為難然後也沒有找司法院來我們來最起碼讓他聽一聽能夠轉達給大法官也很可惜"},{"start":15180.356,"end":15203.586,"text":"好今天有來了這個律師也讓律師聽一聽這個民進黨的前立委林佐水他特別提到侏儒國會變矮子國會臺灣通過的改革法案也就是之前的"},{"start":15206.008,"end":15226.685,"text":"國會改革法案國會前例比起美國國會小到不行何來變成高度向立法院傾斜的體制頂多從侏儒國會升級為矮子國會所以他現在被判違憲之後又回到侏儒國會"},{"start":15232.932,"end":15255.673,"text":"在這樣的一個困境真的是困境剛剛有提到我就講一個例子好了來立法院備詢的不是只有政務官還有事務官嘛對不對事務官有政治責任嗎所以顯然是"},{"start":15256.84,"end":15278.997,"text":"大法官都不知道事務官常常來代表主任委員代表政務次長來都是事務官甚至署長來都是事務官他可以攜尾陳述只能負政治責任他就沒有政治責任可言所以顯然是一個不了解顯然是脫離現實太遠了"},{"start":15287.831,"end":15315.615,"text":"顯然story實務太嚴大法官這次的大法官讓中華民國憲政體制總統府行政院回到威權極權極權兩個極霸權的政府過去我當學生的時候"},{"start":15317.369,"end":15344.359,"text":"我的老師李鴻熙教授他在教憲法的時候上課的時候都會舉到歐美的憲法日本的憲法的一個相關的這些憲法的規定以及五權分立然後立法前"},{"start":15345.526,"end":15373.591,"text":"的一個相關的這些前者當時我聽了確實我們的中華民國憲法我們的立法院的前者確實不如歐美國家這個是我學生的時候幾十年前民國64年所聽到的李鴻喜教授的"},{"start":15375.405,"end":15399.49,"text":"這樣的一個指導結果現在因為這一次的憲法的判決讓立法院真正成為行政院的立法局我們來看按照相關現行的法例威權統治時期"},{"start":15403.723,"end":15428.906,"text":"是到81年的11月對不對從34年到81年11月你看看當時被認為是威權統治時期的這個81年4月17號就業服務法第24條明定三包這兩個字要改為原住民"},{"start":15430.956,"end":15460.037,"text":"三包這兩個字改為原住民中華民國憲法徵修條文將三包修正為原住民是民國83年民國83年如果按照現在的大法官違憲但是當時的行政院尊重立法權立法權完全尊重立法權"},{"start":15461.519,"end":15486.788,"text":"所以說這樣的一個情形之下我們真的是非常非常的遺憾好 我們看 我們就舉最近的例子為什麼我會我提到這個危權、極權、大權不是這次憲法判決我們的原住民就開始在討論這個憲法判決之前"},{"start":15489.585,"end":15505.979,"text":"是不是要討論現在的行政院到底是回到威權、極權霸權的政府嗎?為什麼會這樣討論呢?是因為嚴重於保留地禁法補償條例第6條經過立法院三讀通過調高這個禁法補償的費用"},{"start":15517.602,"end":15518.763,"text":"民國82年三十幾年之後"},{"start":15548.22,"end":15572.12,"text":"也不過調高6萬塊按照物價指數哪算呢我們的土地我們就以那個日月潭來看我們的土地這個蓋了很多飯店對不對但是我們的土地原住民保留地什麼都不能啊只能種樹啊"},{"start":15575.267,"end":15600.622,"text":"他們的土地非原住民的土地可以蓋大飯店我們的土地不可以這哪是6萬塊可以去做比較的所以法律通過了行政院不編預算不編預算不編主委的預算所以我們才會原住民社會才會討論怎麼會是到底是威權還是比權還是霸權政府"},{"start":15602.304,"end":15628.902,"text":"所以我舉這個例子而且立法院也做過決議不可以違法動資原住民族綜合發展基金這個立法院第9屆第2會期的決議是民進黨占絕對多數的時候做的決議但是行政院就是"},{"start":15629.659,"end":15647.666,"text":"照樣違法之用所以從這個憲法判決到現在真的是真的是難以真的是困境真的是困境"},{"start":15649.301,"end":15665.646,"text":"立法委員我們立法委員當然秘書長你是幕僚啊幕僚長啊所以我也我也不請你回應啊因為我剛有講請你來其實是很為難你了好謝謝謝謝鄭委員謝謝鍾秘書長接下來有請李委員崑禎詢答"},{"start":15680.271,"end":15683.394,"text":"謝謝主席我們請周秘書長有請周秘書長秘書長好請問一下秘書長就是在上個禮拜我這個憲法法庭的這一個判決之後那你有跟這個韓院長聊過這個判決嗎沒有沒有他也沒有徵詢過這個判決跟你徵詢過"},{"start":15714.709,"end":15729.094,"text":"所以是院長本人都沒有針對這個大法官這個釋憲的這個有關立法院職權行使法的後續的一些不管是修法啦或是說其他一些相關的一些情況跟秘書長有做討論"},{"start":15731.152,"end":15733.114,"text":"沒有趕快跟他報告?"},{"start":15752.099,"end":15777.772,"text":"因為今天要應司法法制委員會因為我4點多接到必須要來報告那我當然這個時間必須跟我的同事啊尤其在法治局必須要做這些所以說還沒有跟韓院長報告就對了對,因為我有跟他的主任有有說過是今天要來報告的事情還是說大法官事件的事情"},{"start":15778.512,"end":15784.255,"text":"事先的過程那幾個問題請教秘書長第一個問題請教一下有關總統來立法院國情報告的事情剛剛我有聽到秘書長講說立法院邀請總統來立法院做國情報告是違憲我有沒有聽錯?"},{"start":15796.766,"end":15800.768,"text":"是違憲喔?立法院邀請總統來做國情報告怎麼會違憲勒?立法院於每年集會時邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告啊?"},{"start":15814.995,"end":15837.379,"text":"這沒有錯吧?那怎麼會違憲勒?他所謂的違憲是第15條之二的第一項跟第15條的之四都是違憲的但是我講這個第15條之一嘛的第一項嘛對不對?我是跟你講第一項那第一項他有說到說可以邀請這個總統到立法院進行國情報告阿有沒有?"},{"start":15840.387,"end":15844.873,"text":"立法院每年集會時邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告有沒有這一項?合憲嗎?合憲你怎麼會說是違憲勒?"},{"start":15859.704,"end":15884.445,"text":"第15條之二的第一項立法院沒有決定權請他來報告對那這不是違憲啊所以立法院邀請總統來這個立法院做國情報告沒有違憲嘛對不對因為規範是兩個都是沒有憲法上沒有這個義務不是啊那所以秘書長你要修正你的話因為我剛才問你就說這個立法院邀請總統來立法院做國情報告是違憲你還說沒錯"},{"start":15887.748,"end":15893.714,"text":"但是我們第15條第一項就這樣寫了啊可以邀請總統來做這個立法院做國情報告啊這沒有違憲啊這一個報告是因為憲法徵求本來就他得請他來報告不過我要跟立委報告所以秘書長是不是要修正你講的話立法院邀請總統來做國情報告沒有違憲啊"},{"start":15911.291,"end":15911.871,"text":"那你讀一下第15條之一他第一項是寫什麼"},{"start":15924.707,"end":15928.849,"text":"第一項當然是合憲的第二項第三項是違憲的所以我是跟你講說第15條的第一項邀請總統來是合憲的對不對"},{"start":15944.056,"end":15948.058,"text":"所以你剛才講說違憲我覺得有點訝異我們是可以邀請總統來的啊我知道我知道"},{"start":15959.039,"end":15978.818,"text":"要這樣說明 憲法本身 總統就可以到立法院來報告 這沒有問題但是 但是 第15條之後的第一項 立法院沒有權利請他來報告那他第15條之一的第一項"},{"start":15979.719,"end":15988.503,"text":"可以邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告這沒有錯嘛 對不對那看邀請就是說這個總統這個憲法機關跟立法院這個憲法機關兩個去討論嘛 對不對憲法法庭有講得很清楚啊 對不對"},{"start":15994.167,"end":16005.072,"text":"是違憲啊本來就不立法院本來就沒有權力邀請他來吧那你現在第15條他不是有說有邀請總統主動來兩方兩兆都沒有憲法的義務秘書長這個不要雞同鴨講我是跟你講說第15條之一的第一項明明就可以邀請總統來立法院做國權報告沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":16018.999,"end":16033.852,"text":"那現在就是說當然我知道總統沒有來立法院報告的義務然後立法院呢也沒有來聽取總統國情報告的義務這我都知道但是是可以邀請的嘛那所以呢我再來請教一下秘書長"},{"start":16035.253,"end":16058.716,"text":"這個最後總統來立法院做國刑報告的決定權是在總統府還是在立法院?兩兆那如果今天那總統他已經說了按照憲法法庭最新判決的意思那在立法院朝野黨團有具有共識的前提之下依總統的憲法的職權到立法院進行國刑報告總統府有這樣講那接下來的程序怎麼做勒?"},{"start":16062.751,"end":16085.072,"text":"我這一個一位各黨團我不能代表因為是木鳥木鳥的我講程序對那就是總統要主動來知情啊因為在法條總統要知情來但是要經過立法院同意啊對所以我問你說總統可以來立法院做報告但是最後決定要不要讓總統來的是哪個機關"},{"start":16086.724,"end":16113.194,"text":"是立法院嗎?對啊,是立法院嘛,所以立法院是可以有權利就是說如果總統他說我想要來立法院做國情報告但是總統,如果立法院拒絕了,總統就沒辦法來吧,對不對?對啊,那所以最後的決定權其實是在立法院所以我看今天國民黨他們就是說啊他們不讓總統來做這個國情報告啊所以如果說立法院的多數黨不讓總統來做國情報告的話總統是沒辦法來的,對不對?"},{"start":16120.32,"end":16139.158,"text":"立法院是可以邀請總統來做國情報告的但是呢這個邀請總統來要怎麼去做那就是兩個憲法機關去做討論我想憲法法律已經說得很清楚了那第二個呢其實最後的決定權是在立法院立法院他可以決定如果說今天總統今天說我想要來啊但是立法院不讓他來沒辦法來嘛對不對"},{"start":16141.5,"end":16160.099,"text":"那假如總統不知情,也沒有來啊?如果說總統要來的情況之下啦,如果立法院不讓他來,是沒辦法來。是啊,所以我是跟你講,最後決定權其實是在立法院,不是總統府。總統想要來,他就說他想要來,但是如果今天已經發生這個情況了,國民黨不讓他來,來得了嗎?"},{"start":16163.717,"end":16165.137,"text":"但是呢 這個立法院是可以邀請總統來做國情報告的"},{"start":16191.204,"end":16202.538,"text":"這個第15條之一的第一項就說得很清楚了尊重尊重委員的謝謝李委員謝謝周秘書長接下來有請張委員齊凱詢答"},{"start":16219.531,"end":16221.732,"text":"委屈不能求全而且姑息常常會養奸"},{"start":16249.62,"end":16264.653,"text":"5月份的時候 民進黨的立委郭國文暴力去搶奪你 把你推倒 跌坐在椅子上面你連眼睛都撞飛了 一個小時前喔 郭國文還在講他說他沒有把你推倒 把你推倒在椅子上不是要推倒嗎"},{"start":16272.267,"end":16301.348,"text":"那天有沒有跌倒?我要這樣說明我那位同事現在可能不在場因為當時的懷念是因為我們的椅子是會滑動的不過他很激情地從後面就擋住讓我倒在這裡所以好債喔好債喔那天是你的同事用椅子要把你你那個整個如果倒下去你年事已高捏立法院的活字典72歲了那天如果不是你的同事救你"},{"start":16303.048,"end":16326.867,"text":"現在最離譜的是一個小時前郭國文還說他沒有推你沒有把你推倒他不只把你推倒在椅子上面他進一步在去搶你的東西對不對所以我說民進黨阿特別是郭國文欠我們周秘書長一個道歉所以我剛剛講了一個開頭委屈是不能求全的他到現在有跟你道歉嗎"},{"start":16334.907,"end":16356.191,"text":"他說一下道歉這個字眼都沒出現所以離譜的是到今天還在硬拗有點回憶嗎?欸不是只有你受委屈欸必輸定這段時間我們的立法院的職員被軟禁被關起來不能出去"},{"start":16357.168,"end":16371.714,"text":"晚上要開會黃姐還可以像偷偷貓貓像小偷去開門你是立法院的秘書長也是幕僚長啊你們為什麼每次都講求和諧跟民進黨都講求和諧為什麼不嚴辦呢粉席強烈的要求一方面現在郭國文還在還不認錯我在朝野協商的時候要追究他的責任"},{"start":16384.366,"end":16400.796,"text":"相同的我拜託秘書長要硬起來立法院是最高的民意機構耶國會殿堂耶民進黨惡搞拉裂整個立法院的水準立法院的院長秘書長都有責任該追究要追究好不好謝謝民進黨還欠了一個很重要的道歉啦這幾天他們一直在講說你認為舉手表決是違沒有問題的"},{"start":16413.363,"end":16427.498,"text":"現在憲法法庭不是講沒有問題了嗎?對不對?沒有違憲嗎?對不對?舉手表決沒有違憲?因為舉手表決本來就是我們院裡面的議事規則明定的東西沒有違憲啊?啊民進黨現在沒有可以道歉?因為這樣不是要拉你下來嗎?吳思瑤跟你說什麼?有瑕疵喔?中間有沒有違憲?有沒有道歉?也沒有嘛!對不對?"},{"start":16437.281,"end":16457.449,"text":"好啦,民主黨,你保重,你辛苦,你盡心盡力我認識你很久了,你本來就是一個專業性很強的人啊為什麼叫立法院侯志典?以前不是只有我們當記者連國民黨立法院、民進黨立法委員有多少人,碰到議事規則有問題,那也會找作案來啊以前議事處的主任,變成處長、變成副秘書長連民進黨立法院碰到問題都會請教作案來啊現在變什麼實在啊"},{"start":16465.202,"end":16487.783,"text":"現在民進黨不准不去問不去請教專業對一個很專業的秘書長到處霸凌秘書長人民會挺你的不用怕你是有專業的我相信絕大部分人民還是挺你的你先回座我請教另外一個專家來敬禮李秘書長"},{"start":16490.428,"end":16515.681,"text":"總委好你自己已經知道了今天可以發生一個事情就是超思雞蛋進口雞蛋前農業部長陳吉仲現任的農業部長陳俊濟還有中央續產會的董事長林聰賢被約談了我要問你喔你今天進行有提糾正案嘛對不對對我們糾正農業部提糾正案提了5項糾正案6項調查意見我們總共列出11項重點11項重點嗎對"},{"start":16520.805,"end":16525.675,"text":"很嚴重阿 裡面只剩莉莉阿那我要問你阿過這麼久啦 這8月30號提的糾正案"},{"start":16528.915,"end":16545.991,"text":"這麼久了 你們的彈劾在哪裡我跟委員報告我們在調查報告裡有寫得很清楚我們會另起彈劾案理由很簡單因為續產會的部分是財團把人不是我們監督的範圍所以我們都沒有辦法問續產會那如果沒有辦法問續產會的話我們現在沒有辦法就後續的調查所以這個部分我們會等檢調調查完以後"},{"start":16554.478,"end":16556.302,"text":"我們從檢調來調閱卷證然後再看看要不要彈劾那彈劾的部分我們在調查報告已經寫得很清楚了會另起彈劾案"},{"start":16563.766,"end":16589.502,"text":"那個民主黨監察法規定監察委員對公務人員認為有違法或失職之行為應向監察院提出彈劾嗎?我這樣聯盟你說你今天的回答是說你會提可是他等就對了對不對我們現在沒有辦法查續產會阿所以農業部跟續產會講的一不一致他的交代是這樣我們要查續產會這就是我要問你的第二個問題了那你後來的五項糾正裡面調查意見你提了兩點出去"},{"start":16590.529,"end":16604.547,"text":"要北檢要去查對不對有兩項嘛對不對你的調查意見一跟調查意見三要求北檢去查對不對對沒有錯你不覺得他拖延太久了嗎欸北檢怎麼樣的速度這個不是我們監察院的範圍啊所以變成兩個問題嘛"},{"start":16606.149,"end":16609.351,"text":"我跟張委員說明喔監察法施行細則第27條有規定如果監察院調查中的案子"},{"start":16623.599,"end":16635.947,"text":"那司法系統也有採取行動我們必須停下來等他們等他們做完以後我們才開始進行我們那我們的調查是事後權所以根據監察法第27條我們必須這樣做那我們已經說明很清楚這個部分會另有彈劾案但是我們現在還沒有辦法調查所以民主黨這是不是就是現在民眾非常生氣跟不耐煩的地方一個案子從去年"},{"start":16652.742,"end":16670.025,"text":"你們在監察院調查的時候已經拖延了快一年北檢也拖延了一年多這是第一個問題第二個當你們好不容易人民判啊判判到你把這個糾正案拿出來了你含送到北檢到現在又拖拖拉拉這個跟今天的國會改革是有"},{"start":16670.888,"end":16684.254,"text":"有相關的你之前在立法院你是個優秀的立法委員你也提過了你說聽證調查錢如果不給的話你不覺得沒有牙齒的老虎變成什麼沒有老虎的小貓咪對不對"},{"start":16685.882,"end":16708.473,"text":"我們今天現在大法官把那個之前實質廢食現在他基本上已經是實質要幾乎掐死整個國會改革了調查錢幾乎已經是沒有了嘛我是雞蛋小組的專案調查小組的召集人啊我現在不能動啊然後你看大法官做了這個決定然後你們監察院長久功效又不髒一個事情拖了一年多"},{"start":16709.978,"end":16730.547,"text":"回到初衷李秘書長回到初衷從政的初衷我們要回應人民的要求對不對超支基站這麼明確花了人民將近10億的人民納稅錢裡面一致官商勾結你們查出都有問題了阿為什麼從去年搞到現在監察院的功能在哪裡北檢的功能在哪裡又不給立法院功能"},{"start":16731.872,"end":16732.312,"text":"李秘書長我摸著良心阿"},{"start":16762.335,"end":16788.665,"text":"會不會拖太久了啦對,從去年的8月為什麼拖到現在,這是一個有沒有拖,你不要回答拖的期間是一年期間是一年拖了這麼久了,然後我們現在就看你今天有一個比較好的明確的表達你說這個案子不是只有糾正案,一定會彈劾嘛對,我們調查報告已經寫得很清楚了可是今天這個困境也顯示出來台灣目前的一個很離譜的地方"},{"start":16789.502,"end":16792.223,"text":"我跟張委員報告最後一個重點如果對這樣的制度認為有質疑有疑問的話"},{"start":16815.053,"end":16841.058,"text":"請提出修憲如果沒有修憲我們現在就是按照憲法跟按照法律規定來做現在立法院現在是台灣這種狀況下這個修憲有辦法過嗎?謝謝張委員因為後面還有委員有辦法過嗎?所以我們要共同去努力啊就是為什麼這一次大法官這個事件大家憲法法律大家生氣成這樣子好不好我們回到初期我們都發現問題謝謝議長我們今天是很真心在溝通的我們都看到問題了不能再這樣拖延下去監察院的功能要彰顯"},{"start":16842.558,"end":16846.12,"text":"謝謝秘書長 謝謝李秘書長 謝謝張委員 謝謝接下來有請賴委員事保詢答謝謝主席 有請我們立法院的周秘書長來請周秘書長"},{"start":16873.039,"end":16874.8,"text":"國會的立法權當然就解落了"},{"start":16901.363,"end":16925.556,"text":"剪落很多對不對?如果我們講100分的話我看剪80分有啊?剩20分?有嗎?差不多?可以嗎?剪落的不少在地碗錢裡面剪落百分之五十以上啦!對啦!你跟我講一個我們比較因為你是專家你研究這麼多你告訴我們剪落多少?"},{"start":16926.226,"end":16953.129,"text":"我只能這樣說是比原來民國87年我們在負責朝你的立法院的職權的行使的的一些運作這一次把一些譬如說文件調閱啊或是97年的國情報告的一些職權大概都被萎縮掉你同意我剛剛提出來的嗎國會變成沒有牙齒的國會這句話我同意嗎"},{"start":16956.667,"end":16962.712,"text":"就是監督的力道少了百分之六十以上啦!這句話可以同意嗎?"},{"start":16978.417,"end":17004.561,"text":"呃...應該...應該...從監督...國會監督的角度來看是確實相當...相當...非常少 少了六成以上了剩四成了齁 最多剩四成我們來看大法官自己啊現在就是亂源大法官只要解釋出來社會必亂社會必亂請問你啊如果對法案...法律案大法官要把他拿掉可不可以直接說到違憲可不可以"},{"start":17006.092,"end":17008.973,"text":"立法委員職權行使法是不是法律?"},{"start":17033.134,"end":17054.784,"text":"是法律啊!他不喜歡他把他掐掉可以嗎?直接把他掐掉可以嗎?大法官可以嗎?這一次外界可能是認為這些就變成造法,代替立法院在進行造法的過程。他取代,他等於侵犯立法權啦!變成這是一台立法修法!我現在講的,立法委員職權新司法第15條,15之4!"},{"start":17063.058,"end":17079.823,"text":"立法院裡面的第一款立法院與總統國情報告完畢好得就報告不明瞭處提出口頭或書面問題大法官現在解釋是什麼我們不可以問欸總統不可以答 不必答我們不能問我們拿A告欸阿這個法在這裡欸大法官就把這個掐死了"},{"start":17091.789,"end":17111.956,"text":"沒有人沒有人請他解釋這一條他自己就跳進來把這一條這樣子把他刷掉了我這樣講對吧到目前為止對吧因為主席跟代委都在國大代表吧當時的情況是大概原來的條文啦原來李學章委員寫的原來在國大代裡面的嘛原來是國大代表的一個職權"},{"start":17118.957,"end":17125.107,"text":"國民大會廢掉以後我們主席也是當過一樣和我是同事了第三屆的過來代表"},{"start":17126.147,"end":17153.866,"text":"之後把整個搬到立法院嘛我們那時候都很清楚啊一次3個或者5個然後問題問完了然後李登輝前總統一次回答總而回答都這樣子啊叫統問統答啊都有這個東西啊結果大法官說沒有了這些沒有了我現在講的大法官這個就是匪憲亂政他怎麼可以把我們的職權就把它拿掉呢這是第一個他違法"},{"start":17155.499,"end":17163.325,"text":"亂陣,真的亂陣。第二個來勤的總統吃立法院的豆腐啊馬上說我願意來了請問下幾號宣布的時候事先結果是10月25來我們來看一下職權刑事法第15條第15之1條第一項第二款講很清楚總統是每年的3月1號以前來立法院沒有這個空間啦"},{"start":17185.373,"end":17187.194,"text":"今年沒有啦!今年Sayonara啦!這個叫賴清德得了便宜還賣乖整個大法官一面倒大幅的限縮立法權無限擴張行政權讓我們變成個超級大總統讓我們變成走向皇帝制賴清德快變皇帝了他在那裡吼!喬喀連吹羞了"},{"start":17213.851,"end":17234.033,"text":"他說我要來我要來你怎麼來3月以後就只有2月以後報告來3月以後3月以後以前你要的話就是明年度啦不是今年度啦他怎麼可以馬上來他沒有扣板機啦請問你如果總統要來立法院的話誰扣板機第一個誰扣板機"},{"start":17236.429,"end":17262.415,"text":"因為剛才立法院也特別一直質疑這一個條文啦15條之一它是有條件性的合憲那這現在的凍結等於在15條之二的原因是原來我上次還報告說立法院有決定權是因為這個法條立法院有決定權不過這次的憲法的這個裁判理會是兩兆都是"},{"start":17264.795,"end":17288.326,"text":"都是憲法的義務啦那憲法義務的話這裡的第15條之後的第一項又被解釋為憲了那只有變成第15條之後的第二項是他講違憲還是你講違憲在憲法法庭裏面已經裁判了憲法法庭講違憲嘛那這樣有的變成叫走入第15條之後的第二項啊憲法法庭也沒有講15條之事違憲結果他就把他掐死了啊"},{"start":17289.13,"end":17291.413,"text":"法庭裏面：他沒有講15條之事喔!"},{"start":17291.413,"end":17303.788,"text":"法庭15條之事也是違憲他講違憲 這個我們就沒你壓 這個你就直接我們也沒有問他 他直接就把你說我這個地方違憲所以這道保官這樣子一來 這個 這個"},{"start":17306.863,"end":17334.729,"text":"如此一來就變成說立法院不可以問總統不必答以門來啦我們未來這一屆總統都不必來我們在這裡就可以正式宣布國民黨團的立場雖然我不是當編但是我們有共識然後門來我們都反對因為他來就是做修養來講完了回去他總統主開會講完就好了何必來立法院就是因為立法院這是一個法定的基礎"},{"start":17335.729,"end":17345.703,"text":"他如果來的話創造憲政的歷史過去從陳水扁時代想來沒辦法來馬英九時代也沒辦法來蔡英文時代也沒辦法來"},{"start":17347.472,"end":17371.806,"text":"但是賴清德如果要來我們說這樣一句啦齁沒!沒來!真的不要這樣子不需要這個大法官結合總統那個一起來欺負這個立法院立法院已經被大法官掐得煙煙一熄而且我們看到這大法官一解釋出來最近解釋的都是完全是討好民進黨的一個核心思想自作賤自甘墮落變成民進黨的護水組織"},{"start":17376.369,"end":17394.762,"text":"Face民眾8成以上反對他就實質Face然後這個地方把國會的權力全部把它掐掉掐掉6成以上剩不到4成這是國家的悲哀我再強調一遍這是一個亂言最後一句我告訴各位今年的7月29美麗島定時報"},{"start":17397.15,"end":17421.51,"text":"提到了相信大法官能夠獨立行使職權不受任何干預的相信36%不相信52%然後台灣民力基金會將近五成的對大法官沒有信心這個都寫照啊大法官完全是活在一個奇怪的地方最後我要強調一個東西了我有強調一個東西了"},{"start":17423.666,"end":17439.368,"text":"我想大法官頻頻出招都做出忤逆民意的一個解釋的話我們就來修公投法用人民的力量來壓制大法官否則大法官這個亂言呢"},{"start":17440.836,"end":17446.38,"text":"接下來有請王宏威委員,王宏威,王宏威不在,有請洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員不在,有請葉元智委員,葉元智,葉元智委員不在,有請胡坤祺委員,胡坤祺委員不在"},{"start":17465.063,"end":17482.816,"text":"好,所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員謝榮介、傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。"},{"start":17486.699,"end":17509.574,"text":"現在進行議程所列預算解凍案．處理前．請議事人員一併宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案．宣讀過程中與解凍案無關之列席機關代表．可先行離席．並請監察院李秘書長移座至主席台對面首長席．必便後續討論．請宣讀時間1分鐘"},{"start":17513.863,"end":17522.648,"text":"報告事項二,監察院含為113年度中央政府總預算決議,檢送稅出第6款第一項決議25,預算凍結書面報告,請查照案。討論事項一至五,監察院含為113年度中央政府總預算決議,檢送稅出第6款第一項決議1至決議5,預算凍結書面報告,請查照案等5案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":17543.503,"end":17571.908,"text":"現在進行處理報告事項第二案有關監察院113年度預算解凍書面報告案本案既已列入議程報告並經宣讀做如下決定報告事項第二案准予被查提報院會同過接下來我們現在進行討論事項第一至五案監察院113年度預算解凍案前以一併宣讀請問各位委員有無異議"},{"start":17574.216,"end":17578.559,"text":"五如一一,我們就做以下決議。均准與動之提報院會。"},{"start":17590.892,"end":17606.86,"text":"對於監察院這個解凍案我個人是有很大的疑慮因為我覺得任何一個機關的一個所謂的到底他的預算的使用應該跟機關的效能跟效率有極大的相關"},{"start":17608.141,"end":17634.063,"text":"所以我這邊先表達對於這個監察院在沒有展現出足夠的機關效率針對之前的各項的預算的解凍案我個人表示很大的疑慮特別是裡面有關於國家人權委員會裡面還有列進有關於說長期廢除死刑的這種違背人民意志的這樣的一個所謂的計畫抱歉本席無法接受 謝謝"},{"start":17637.79,"end":17638.55,"text":"議程所列事項均已處理完畢,會議到此結束,現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}