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位藉此帶動國家各種產業的蓬勃發展所以臺灣的能源政策必須考量經濟體質的需求不僅要能夠安全穩定的供電"},{"start":1951.094,"end":1977.915,"text":"也必須因應國際綠色供應鏈的趨勢（滿足國內產業出口所需要的綠電（才能夠保有我們的競爭力。（3賴清德總統所提出的第二次能源轉型（包括多能綠原的發展（包括深度節能、先進的儲能、強韌電網（以及天然氣、去碳化等等各方面的面向（"},{"start":1978.803,"end":2006.98,"text":"也藉此政府要塑造出我國穩健邁向淨零轉型願景的路徑﹐滾動檢討妥適的能源結構﹐驅動國家與世界接軌﹐讓臺灣具有強勁的韌性跟經濟發展的體制﹐所以接下來要向大院說明政府的能源政策方向﹐以及各項階段配比的規劃﹐至於前述三大理由﹐國內外的局勢﹐"},{"start":2008.157,"end":2034.809,"text":"再生能源已經成為產業出口不可或缺的剛性需求我們積極設置太陽能光電、風力發電機組推動地熱、氫能、水力乃至於生殖能源等等的新能源的發展同時應應低碳天然氣發電機組因為它具備了快速停啟的功能的設置"},{"start":2035.481,"end":2056.878,"text":"所以在低碳天然氣作為橋尖能源以減緩再生能源的間歇性因此在穩定供電的前提下發展多元綠能減煤減碳的行動方向與國際間發展綠能的趨勢是一致的未來第二次能源轉型也會在這個基礎上持續努力"},{"start":2058.058,"end":2069.124,"text":"至於目前的能源配比現況我們拿過去8年的努力我國再生能源的裝置容量到現在為止從2016年的4.73GW增加到2023的17.96GW成長了2.8倍而發電量也從"},{"start":2083.083,"end":2108.254,"text":"一百二十七點三億度（增加到兩百六十八點七億度（發電量已經翻倍成長。（2024年一到八月的統計資料來看（能源佔比燃煤百分之四十（燃氣百分之四十一點五（核能百分之五點四（再生能源百分之十點五（"},{"start":2110.786,"end":2127.004,"text":"顯示在趨勢上燃煤發電比例是逐漸的減少﹐低碳燃氣和再生能源的占比是逐步的增加﹐比起2016年﹐我們已經成功大幅的減少空氣污染﹐"},{"start":2128.347,"end":2148.819,"text":"統計資料﹐臺電火力發電廠整體空污排放減少了6乘5﹐從2016年的10.7萬噸降到2023年的3.7萬噸﹐從減碳的角度來看﹐透過再生能源搭配低碳燃氣的發電替代燃煤﹐"},{"start":2149.719,"end":2173.887,"text":"我國電力排碳係數也從2016到2013下降了6.79%,這都是第一次能源轉型的重要成果。（近來國人十分關心河山廠二號機。（河山廠二號機從今年的10月21日起進入大休,為期41天。（"},{"start":2176.625,"end":2199.694,"text":"目前發電系統暫時是沒有核電的大休期間減少的電力約佔3.4%暫時是以燃氣發電來代替全國的整體供應電力是無餘的那麼沒有核能的能源配比又會如何"},{"start":2200.962,"end":2207.244,"text":"2024年10月22日（當天（台電系統淨發電的結構是燃煤占33.2%（燃氣占49.5%（再生能源占16%（以此推估現行法規中（2025年的5月17（和三場二號機即將除役（同樣沒有缺電的問題（"},{"start":2229.678,"end":2245.343,"text":"臺電系統的發電結構﹐不含民間自用發電的佔比﹐推估﹐到那個時候燃煤會佔29.6%﹐燃氣會佔52%﹐再生能源也一樣佔據16.3%﹐臺電的電力調度模式﹐將和現在是相同的﹐優先調度無碳再生能源﹐並增加﹐調度低碳燃氣發電﹐"},{"start":2259.789,"end":2272.027,"text":"為此穩定的供電。（10月30日（。 未來能源配比的目標又是如何（10月30日（。 能源配比跟年度用電需求相關（10月30日（。 隨各年發電量與用電形式而有所變化（10月30日（。"},{"start":2272.799,"end":2289.207,"text":"例如2021年﹐當年我們的經濟成長率高達6.6%﹐所以帶動全國成長用電4.4%﹐造成能源配比產生比較大的大幅變化﹐因此政府在定期滾動式檢討用電需求﹐並規劃電源開發方向﹐"},{"start":2297.052,"end":2318.548,"text":"2030年政府規劃能源配比的目標是綠電占百分之三十燃煤占百分之二十燃氣占百分之五十以達到增加再生能源減少燃煤發電的效果邁向2030年的目標我們有以下幾項的推動方向"},{"start":2319.449,"end":2346.082,"text":"首先就是關於再生能源的發展我們第一要增加設置能量第二要嚴格杜絕不法以太陽能光電為例太陽能光電到2024年今年的8月太陽能光電的裝置容量達到13.6GW屋頂型的太陽能光電廣泛設置在農業工業以及民有的屋頂上目前已經有8.6GW"},{"start":2348.706,"end":2374.524,"text":"持續往後我們會在增訂再生能源發展條例第十二之一條明確規定在一定規模的新建建物上必須設置光電期望能夠增加光電的設置能量那至於地面型呢目前也已經完成了5GW再考慮生態環境、社會工作、土地使用、行政程序"},{"start":2374.98,"end":2375.1,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":2393.359,"end":2406.806,"text":"許多國人關心綠電相關的弊案問題,針對綠能犯罪政府長期致力杜絕不法的行為,2021年8月已經成立了打擊妨礙綠能產業發展犯罪聯繫的平台,"},{"start":2410.506,"end":2413.467,"text":"打擊犯罪利能的犯罪根據統計檢察機關從2021年的1月到2024年的9月已經偵辦了136案、羈押33人、起訴91人並查扣不罰犯罪所得"},{"start":2429.178,"end":2448.845,"text":"今年6月（最高檢察署在聯合調查局廉政署執行競評專案（綠能掃黑速談（跨機關積極偵辦綠能犯罪（讓綠能犯罪是過去到現在（我們是持續工作的重點（接下來（我要求各部會（針對"},{"start":2450.808,"end":2471.042,"text":"持續加強司法跟產業合作的平台﹐設立獎金鼓勵檢舉﹐簡化申請及核定流程杜絕人模不章﹐以及訂定綠能產業透明回扣機制等幾項﹐研議具體有效的相關機制﹐即時馬上加以實施﹐"},{"start":2473.41,"end":2498.806,"text":"再來談到離岸風電（在離岸風電的部分（到2024年的8月（離岸風電的裝置容量（達到2.7GW（我國參考國際離岸風電發展的趨勢（以先示範次潛力（後區塊（三個階段穩步的前進（第一階段的示範（跟第二階段的潛力區（累計已有6座離岸風電廠完成（"},{"start":2500.427,"end":2517.653,"text":"目前已經完成的2026區塊發展的第三階段的第一期第二期選商作業同時積極布局新型風電技術以擴大離岸風電設計的場域離岸風電設置量到2028年我們的目標是達到7.9GW再來我們談到地熱"},{"start":2525.626,"end":2542.633,"text":"我們積極發展多元的綠能其中包括地熱發電到今年的8月地熱裝置容量有7MW經濟部也在地礦中心在依科學模型在推估臺灣有淺層地熱也有深層的地熱"},{"start":2548.547,"end":2576.652,"text":"已經在宜蘭的清水、臺東的金輪等地我們設計會有6個淺層的地熱案場後續在全臺包括大屯山、花蓮瑞穗等10大地熱淺區我們也會進行探勘政府更積極地來發展布局深層地熱的發電10月14日我們在宜蘭圓山開始鑽探我國第一口深層地熱"},{"start":2578.569,"end":2588.229,"text":"會目標希望它是有4000公尺地熱的深井﹐我們期望未來地熱發展能夠成為重要綠能來源之一﹐"},{"start":2589.434,"end":2611.062,"text":"至於水力發電（。 截至2024年18月（。 水力發電裝置容量達到2.1GW（。 既有水力發電（。 主要在於德基水庫、翡翠水庫等大型的水庫設置發電機組（。 水力發電（。 比較容易受水文狀況的影響（。 但近兩年來（。 水力發電約佔全國發電量的1.7%（。"},{"start":2615.151,"end":2643.588,"text":"未來我們會持續推動對環境影響比較小的小水利發電現在我們已經掌握了23個小水利發電案場將訂定案場的設置指引引導業者採用低環境衝擊模式開發案場透過公民電廠的方式鼓勵民眾參與設置發展在地資源建立社區經濟的模式接下來我們談到核能的議題"},{"start":2645.07,"end":2673.495,"text":"國內外都非常關心核能的議題我要再次的強調如果未來我們對新的核能技術在安全在沒有核廢料的問題也在社會有高度共識的情況底下政府採取開放討論的態度我們必須依法行政所以依照現行的核管法現有的核三廠二號機將在明年五月必須除役但是"},{"start":2674.013,"end":2700.101,"text":"所遺留下來臺電管理核電廠的技術人員應該適度的要留存起來我們需要他繼續了解國際新核能技術的各項研究跟發展也要因應未來各項有可能的各種變動更重要的是目前臺灣仍然處於需要處理核後端核廢料的重要議題這些都需要臺電核電廠這些專業的人員來處理"},{"start":2703.925,"end":2729.461,"text":"至於其他電源開發的規劃（未來電源開發規劃（除了再生人員之外（我們規劃建置快速停止的（特性的低碳新型燃氣機組（包括台電跟民營（會增加很多新的燃氣機組（我們期待到2033年（我們大型燃氣機組（可以近增加1.86GW（來提供安全無虞的供電（"},{"start":2730.612,"end":2751.342,"text":"依據推估﹐納入半導體跟人工智慧發展下的電力需求﹐目前規劃的大型機組電力開發﹐足以符合2030年的電力需求﹐因此﹐我要拜託大院委員﹐地方政府和國人﹐請大家共同支持臺電﹐各項能源開發計畫﹐"},{"start":2752.895,"end":2782.376,"text":"如果各項能源開發計畫能夠依規劃完工2030年我們是絕對不會有缺電的問題此外為了配合再生能源的間歇性政府也積極地推動除能、電池跟抽水力等先進除能設置並加速推動電網韌性安全的建設這些都會強化電力系統維持供電穩定將來一定發揮重要的功能"},{"start":2783.479,"end":2807.24,"text":"以上是關於能源配比、現況、未來各項能源規劃的報告請各位委員先進能夠指教跟支持那接下來我們要說明電價政策電價是由電價審議委員會來專業的審查依照電業法及公用售電業電價費率計算公司的規定"},{"start":2808.377,"end":2837.686,"text":"經濟部每年會定期召開電價審議委員會在每年的4月跟10月檢討、調整公用售電電價目前審議委員一共有17名就立法院大院所修訂的電業法第49條決議由學者、專家及民間團體代表組成的外部委員超過半數所以在新的委員會的委員組成下電價審議委員會將具有更多的專業性跟代表性"},{"start":2839.524,"end":2857.152,"text":"現行電價審議是依據反應成本、節能減碳、照顧民生、穩定物價以及使用者付費等幾項原則由電價費率審議委員會定期檢討決定。（因此電價審議委員會要評估多重因素"},{"start":2858.666,"end":2885.182,"text":"比如綜合考量社會經濟狀況、物價穩定情形、民生產業承受程度、臺電公司的財務狀況等等因素,省慎的評估整體電價調整的事項。本次就是2024年的10月電價調整的原則跟方案。我們第一是要照顧民生及穩定物價,第二是兼顧產業的競爭力。"},{"start":2887.625,"end":2910.045,"text":"在照顧名聲跟穩定物價的這個原則下我們看到2022到2024國際燃料價格飆漲讓台電的燃料成本從2021年連續兩年超過6000億這個是俄羅斯戰爭以前3000億的兩倍以上難遇見的是特殊的重大事件"},{"start":2911.129,"end":2938.634,"text":"至於2024年8月為止臺電累積虧損4200億因此臺電目前電價尚未完全足額的反應成本預估2024年電價成本是每度3.95元但電價審議委員會為兼顧照顧民生及穩定物價決議在本次調整電價當中住宅小商店"},{"start":2942.683,"end":2953.857,"text":"佔1452萬戶約佔前提的95.2百分比住宅小商店的累計電價各級級距不調整明升用電電價平均"},{"start":2955.575,"end":2955.915,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":2973.379,"end":2992.946,"text":"另外為降低對CPI指數的影響給予民生內需產業像是食品、含加工及零售業、攤販集中市場、量販店、超商、超市、醫院、診所、餐盒、外匯以及團散、承包業等等的業別、電價,我們予以動長。"},{"start":2996.616,"end":3023.611,"text":"農漁、學校及社福團體的漲幅部分由目的世界主管機關循年度預算編列支應。那麼在堅固產業競爭力的這個原則下為合理反應成本及堅固產業的競爭力在產業電價方面沈亦輝委員會決意要用用電量跟產值衰退作為指標將部分產業"},{"start":3025.596,"end":3031.379,"text":"長幅減半為7%或動漲以緩和電價調整對產業的影響那麼其餘的不受影響的影響比較小的就調整14%而整體產業電價平均漲幅是12.1%調整後的產業用電平均每度4.27元依照用電"},{"start":3051.909,"end":3052.509,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":3073.854,"end":3081.198,"text":"以及用電衰退未達5%（產值及銷售額衰退達15%（以上的我們減半調幅調整調漲7%（除了前述情況以外其他影響比較小的調幅為14%（至於本次調整電價對民生物價及產業的影響（"},{"start":3099.008,"end":3127.009,"text":"考量本次電價調整的方案明升電價的調漲僅調整產業電價目前預估本次電價調整對CPI的影響保守估計只有0.03%我們降到最低此次在審議會中對於明升內需型的產業如食品、攤販集中市場、量販店、超商、超市對CPI的實際影響渴望更低"},{"start":3128.937,"end":3155.673,"text":"至於本次電價調整對產業的影響為兼顧產業的競爭力務實反映產業的復甦情形本次的審議委員會也針對電價用電或產值消退的產業採取動漲或減半的調整所以本次電價調整後平均工業電價為每度4.27元跟我們主要的競爭國家相比韓國他在今年的"},{"start":3156.601,"end":3184.274,"text":"平均電價是4.65元顯然是高於我們的產業平均電價所以我國仍然具有產業出口的競爭力至於深度節能這方面無論是產業或是受到電價調整影響實施新電價之後我們都賦予強化節能的潛力所以行政院透過深度節能的這樣的措施其中包括節能"},{"start":3185.444,"end":3186.544,"text":"政府會提供。（10月29日（。"},{"start":3212.056,"end":3226.453,"text":"節電輔導由專業團隊專家協助產業用電診斷提出完整的節電建議方案協助煤和ESCO落實改善。（12、在節能設備投資及理解"},{"start":3227.449,"end":3244.162,"text":"是投資設置或者是更換智慧節能設備如果符合了產創條例第十之一條智慧設備投資抵減的範圍我們會協助產用戶來降低投入節能改善的成本"},{"start":3245.45,"end":3273.575,"text":"在多元節能獎勵措施方面政府會推動節能績效保證專案協助改善動力與公用設備強化廢熱與廢冷回收投入預算以個別條件輔導補助節電設備改善它的經費最後我國能源轉型除了已經推動的太陽光電跟風力之外"},{"start":3274.5,"end":3301.079,"text":"我們會全力發展開發新的其他再生能源所以現在對地熱、水力乃至氫能等等我們也全力的在做全面的開發我們希望到2030年再生能源的發電比能夠佔到百分之三十這是我們達到淨零轉型階段性的目標並且有充分的綠電滿足我國出口產業的需求"},{"start":3302.234,"end":3325.871,"text":"現行電價政策透過外部委員的電價審議在兼顧電價合理化穩定民生物價等前提下進行審議調整電價的同時也持續推出深度節能的措施我們除了可以促進節電以外更要減輕用戶電費的支出並且有助於減碳的效益"},{"start":3326.772,"end":3333.916,"text":"以上兩項的報告,敬請委員先進多多的指教並與支持,祝大家身體健康,謝謝大家。"},{"start":3341.837,"end":3369.357,"text":"法院會今天是本院立法院托育中心舉辦的快閃活動托育中心特別恭請卓院長跟各位委員同仁一起能夠到門口跟他們一起合影讓小朋友們留下一個美好的回憶所以我們現在休息4分鐘在休息期間歡迎卓院長、各位委員同仁一起到門口跟我們立法院的托育中心小朋友一起合照一張10分鐘之後我們再正式開始謝謝現在開始休息"},{"start":3970.831,"end":3994.148,"text":"官員會現在我們繼續開會進行委員質詢每位委員質詢詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如不在場視同放棄首先我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝主席、委員長、經濟部部長、環境部部長、台電董事長"},{"start":4013.806,"end":4039.99,"text":"黃委員好是部長、院長我想我剛剛很高興看到卓院長的報告對於台灣未來的能源配比已經有一個初步完整的結構但是我今天的質詢有幾個題目希望能夠了解一下院長的態度還有接下來的做法前面比較輕鬆一點我們來討論一下智慧電表這個是政府的政策對吧"},{"start":4041.018,"end":4066.246,"text":"目前也是賴總統在氣候變遷委員會裡面要求很重要的就是節能是最重要的部長是嗎是的我想請問一下這個變遷委員會他們將來的決議行政院都會照辦吧還是會像司改會或者是年改會很多決議其實都沒有做到我們不希望再發生同樣的事情這個因件並不遠"},{"start":4067.759,"end":4072.886,"text":"所以這個決議絕對會成為行政院的政策不會像年改會或司改會後續無力的狀況"},{"start":4083.855,"end":4109.734,"text":"總統府這個氣候變遷委員會（主要是就一些政策的討論（沒錯（至於怎麼樣的執行（執行,行政院來執行（期程、預算的規劃（但是人力的佈置都由行政院逐步的來推進（我也希望是這樣（不要常常看到有很多的決議（但是後面沒有下文（接下來是賴總統說（最好的節能政策才是比開發能源更有效益（這個也是兩位認同（他說最好的能源就是節能（"},{"start":4110.333,"end":4127.968,"text":"沒錯所以節能我們現在將近要花4年300多億要省下206億度的電然後讓民間來投資3000多億對吧目前的計劃是這樣但是我在這邊要要有趣的是智慧電表是政府的政策"},{"start":4129.144,"end":4158.334,"text":"日本跟德國都認為說智慧電表可以達到節能效果但是我們這邊要跟大家說也要跟部長跟院長說從審計部的報告裡面很有趣他說我們的智慧電表裝得太慢而且裝上智慧電表也不智慧事實的實情是這樣一百零年開始推動智慧電表我們在十二年內將近裝設了三百二十三萬戶但是其中一百四十七萬戶的高耗能的用電"},{"start":4159.599,"end":4177.756,"text":"。（"},{"start":4180.397,"end":4198.918,"text":"報告委員這個部分我想智慧電表是我們這一期大力要推動在深度節能的部分是 過過智慧電表所以智慧電表是其中的一個節能的項目嘛是 是但是現在的速度跟效率我覺得有點低啦而且審計部也說裝太慢"},{"start":4199.719,"end":4227.102,"text":"更嚴重的是院長什麼叫智慧電表因為他就是要透過網際網路直接可以讀取而且他可以審閱但是現在有3萬戶左右裝了智慧電表的電表不智慧因為他沒有網際網路所以等於是裝了等於擺裝啊我的意思是說如果審計部有這樣的檢討報告院長跟部長可能要去看一看我們的檢討政策是出了什麼問題好嗎是謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":4228.035,"end":4253.833,"text":"因為這個部分看起來就是有點可笑接下來就會看到說我們從101年開始推其實跟日本是同個時間我們現在推到大概20%日本幾乎到現在已經100%也就是我們還剩下11年的80%這個速度跟效率的確是非常非常的差所以部長我相信你來自企業你應該不會容許這樣的效率存在在我們的政府之間吧"},{"start":4255.039,"end":4275.377,"text":"是的,我想這個院長有指示啦,這個部分我們會...院長我覺得這個節能是最好的能源,拜託節能的第一要務就是智慧電表的落實,而且我們落後其他國家非常多。好,我們會極力的迎頭趕上,希望能夠達到目標。我同時要請那個台電董事長要上台一下,謝謝。"},{"start":4278.837,"end":4290.033,"text":"接下來我還要再講一個審計部最近查到的部分時間暫停跟黃珊瑋報告因為台電董事長不能被學好沒關係謝謝那我們就把台電的事情來問院長跟部長接下來是審計部說的我們現在"},{"start":4296.925,"end":4320.75,"text":"從立法院給了政府的公務預算﹐不管是增資也好﹐補助也好﹐其實大概已經都有3000億左右﹐然後去年﹐今年一年我們漲了兩次電價﹐現在經濟部又來向立法院申請了將近2000億的補助﹐接下來需要撥補給台電﹐我想問一下院長﹐如果就這些都給了﹐請問﹐我們多久可以不漲電價﹐"},{"start":4322.445,"end":4344.54,"text":"報告委員首先我們今年10月份的電價的調整民生用電沒有調整那遠遠低於我們的成本所以我們應該可以保有明年有機會不找電價嗎我們努力讓民生的穩定所以除了除了剛剛講的能夠節電其實還有一個台電要節流"},{"start":4345.923,"end":4368.868,"text":"臺電不節流才是今天虧損的虧大的主因這邊也是陳季夫說的部長事事念念就是這一段話是他認為有信心讓臺電的財務健全我想部長來自企業他一定不能容許自己的企業在那邊浪費吧對吧好我們現在就是陳季夫又講另外一件事進口的燃煤他每年送到臺灣來然後要卸貨在一"},{"start":4369.65,"end":4390.195,"text":"一百一十年卸貨如果你卸貨太慢要給他一個致船費就船要停在那邊等你卸貨從一百一十年我們大概只有兩億到一百一十一年我們暴增到七億那也就算了一百一十二年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨台電賠了二十億"},{"start":4392.207,"end":4405.353,"text":"20億是什麼?致船費也就是我們訂了貨人家送來了你沒有倉庫可以卸貨然後就讓他在船上等要賠給船東賠一年賠20億你一年我們現在剛剛院長說賠了4000多億其中這樣就快30億部長這是怎麼回事?報告委員我想這一個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查這件事情不應該發生"},{"start":4420.492,"end":4450.212,"text":"部長來自企業界庫存、倉庫都要準備好然後貨來了要趕快卸沒有地方存要去找地方存你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了不是現在這樣的狀況你可以說烏克蘭戰爭我們預計不好你訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃也沒有安排然後一賠20億現在告訴我說要漲電價這百姓怎麼能接受這個我們回去馬上來清查這件事情"},{"start":4450.609,"end":4465.66,"text":"好這個是要清查請一個月之內給我本席一個報告而且你也要給審計部報告也要告訴我們全民說漲價是因為漲到這種錢漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊我們來追查這件事情是現在請主席我要請環境部長麻煩請環境部長備詢這件事情需要報告拜託我覺得蠻離譜的"},{"start":4477.625,"end":4505.035,"text":"接下去就是上一次 院長我在總實訊也問過了我先對於基隆協和電廠的未來還有現在的四階的環評上次部長說沒有替代方案環境部長說我不是經濟部的環保署我會嚴格審查院長回答我目前還沒有想到替代方案我想知道如果環評不過兩位院長跟部長還是沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":4507.264,"end":4531.372,"text":"要不要努力呢?要去努力還是要去耍無賴的?目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料,讓政府能夠通過。所以你們要去找資料,我也很認真的幫你們找資料。我剛剛聽到院長的報告我很高興,因為我們把地熱列為台灣未來再生能源的其中一個重要項目。所以接下來就要跟兩位報告說,其實在基隆有地熱,"},{"start":4532.452,"end":4557.115,"text":"基隆的地熱在2014年公園院就已經查到基隆嶼下面有興奈的海底火山另外協和電廠將來還是燃氣他還是會借海造地這會破壞生態第二個燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險有所謂的會受到天后的影響會受到國際能源的影響地熱"},{"start":4558.909,"end":4584.397,"text":"盡力攤牌而且不用燃料最重要是24小時不受天候的影響還有我們是穩定不求人我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向所以基隆有這樣的資源但是我很遺憾我最近在調資料經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案然後台電呢也說從來沒有探勘過請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有第三"},{"start":4586.006,"end":4605.235,"text":"2022年的海大教授就說其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方把地熱列為考慮之一院長我要說的是你們要集齊窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部"},{"start":4606.547,"end":4628.85,"text":"尤其是院長我希望很堅定的說你剛剛講的報告第六是中華民國未來政策的重要的重中之重我希望他會成為卓院長的一個政績好嗎我們只要有任何的訊息請經濟部督促台電跟相關的部會能夠去廣泛的去發掘沒錯所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案"},{"start":4629.551,"end":4632.232,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4654.036,"end":4667.984,"text":"我們現在的問題是剛剛講的我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向土耳其就在眼前做不做而已另外我們也找到他們的方法"},{"start":4668.797,"end":4697.62,"text":"他其實很認真的在做一件事第一個他們的政府先把所有的地質探勘的資料做完備提供相關的數據讓國際的企業可以知道或者是來協助來參與最重要的是他提供稅務的減免補貼的政策甚至資金的援助更重要的是先完善地熱的法規這些環境造就以後國際的企業就像風電供光電業者他就會來"},{"start":4699.261,"end":4699.401,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4719.708,"end":4731.868,"text":"我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說希望得到完整的data而已他們有data他們就可以做評估院長這件事情還沒開始做欸"},{"start":4732.782,"end":4751.995,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見我們請經濟部這是非常可行的方式為什麼還沒開始做然後又變成中央政策我希望的是部長你可以答應開始做這件事我們開始在做我們已經在那個宜蘭的園山挖了第一口深層的這個地熱井"},{"start":4754.136,"end":4754.256,"text":"指揮委員"},{"start":4778.391,"end":4781.193,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4802.296,"end":4814.279,"text":"為全美發電8.5%我們台灣我調的資料是我們2024目前低熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW是占總發電量不到0.1%然後好像我們的目標是2030年低熱發電值200MW在總發電量不到0.3部長這個目標有沒有太低了一點"},{"start":4825.146,"end":4851.378,"text":"是的,這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討小心大一點吧目標高一點吧如果地熱台灣接下去的問題是你看國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源也就是說剛剛我講只要環境友善只要法規明確只要資料健全"},{"start":4851.858,"end":4853.879,"text":"臺灣的地熱資源豐富,儲存量將近十座核市場。2011年到現在,十多年,"},{"start":4877.461,"end":4879.844,"text":"本院內政委員會報告併案審議、委員王鴻薇等20人分別擬具"},{"start":4887.298,"end":4911.494,"text":"第六裡面臺灣運償了400GW,宜蘭現在是8.5,所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向,而且已經開始了,我們希望趕快加速的進行。另外就是我希望院長可以答應,宜蘭、基隆都有豐富的地熱資源,要積極推動開發,第一個,探勘資料要完整,第二個,"},{"start":4912.142,"end":4920.092,"text":"法規配套要健全。 院長你可以在這個會期給我一個初步的回應嗎?然後探勘資料可以納入"},{"start":4942.934,"end":4952.841,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝總院長及各部會首長備詢。接下來請登記第二位,郭國文委員質詢。"},{"start":4975.031,"end":4980.655,"text":"主席有請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢郭委員好院長好院長我剛接著黃山威委員剛最後講的所謂的地熱整治能源開發我認為地熱能源開發現階段比較主要的問題是在於土地的部分"},{"start":5002.725,"end":5028.001,"text":"土地部分因為他大部分都是在特農所以說呢他必須在越過這個法規的部分要透過中研院來進行開發這當然是一個途徑但中研院自己本身能夠開發的能量有多少可能要去面對這個問題如果要提高低熱能量的話可能要重新思考一下首先給院長做一個建議院長稍作休息我跟那個部長對話一下那個部長"},{"start":5029.178,"end":5056.242,"text":"我想臺電在整個總體不缺電又不能長期依賴中南部的用電的這個部分對外已經多次表示態度而且這個新聞是在8月15號的時候那我們就看整個夏季的用電的部分你去看看中南部的部分的用電都是供過於求那北部很清楚就供不應求很清楚"},{"start":5056.442,"end":5057.804,"text":"以往發電都是從區域的角度來思考"},{"start":5073.543,"end":5097.151,"text":"北、中、南跟東部那本席為什麼一開始跟你提到這個問題呢?因為上次你們就創造一個新的名詞也就是行政區域的自主率的問題然後你行政區域的自主率的問題你還特別強調說台南市的部分只有20%本席來給你換算給你聽喔台南市或許在你舊的資料當中是20%但是本席以去年"},{"start":5099.053,"end":5121.041,"text":"2023年臺南市的這個用電總共是328億度來計算的話深壩目前的這個裝置容量大概是2GW臺南市的這個整個太陽能光電與將近有4.5GW的這個裝置容量扣掉沒有日照的時間它能夠供應至少四分之以上至少1GW"},{"start":5122.082,"end":5151.694,"text":"然後另外呢因為我們那邊有四座水利發電廠包括曾文、烏山頭以及呢八田跟溪口這四座加起來有3億度左右我用最嚴格的標準來計算的話就台南市的部分就120加60加3就183你如果換算在隔壁你知道嗎隔壁的新達電廠在哪裡他就在北高雄他距離台南市幾公里"},{"start":5152.321,"end":5152.341,"text":"。 三"},{"start":5174.616,"end":5196.21,"text":"一度的情況底下臺南至少會佔一半的情況下我換算起來 哈布朗當啊臺南啊在整個你所謂的能源自主率的部分啊加總起來以去年這一個用電的這一個母數來計算我覺得大約就有八成之多就有八成之多我第一個讓數字上給部長做參考部長你的看法如何"},{"start":5199.043,"end":5219.267,"text":"這個我要再回去瞭解一下再重新你確實要瞭解委員所指導的這個方向我們再重新去深入瞭解這一個所謂在推動臺南需要這一個火力發電廠天然氣發電廠已經有預設的目標才會創造這個民使才會用低估的數字讓你去前面去擋箭"},{"start":5221.106,"end":5231.31,"text":"當成擋箭盤在擋箭。（2、他用南科的理由南科我再跟你說南科當初台電的供電量是3.3GW目前用的是2.3GW用了7成"},{"start":5235.066,"end":5252.423,"text":"然後呢在整個用電計畫在未來的一年是大概151度然後佔整個台南市的用電當然那個整個南科大概佔了45%那這樣你未來也有南科的整個用電規劃因為南科太重要了嘛"},{"start":5253.064,"end":5272.641,"text":"你二期的1.1GW、七股的2.2GW再加上新達電廠1.5GW總共你要否南科的就4.6GW所以南科怎麼會缺電目前沒有但南科有缺什麼電我還是要強調一下南科缺的是這個綠電我把所有的數字整理出來來一個跟你說明"},{"start":5273.888,"end":5277.193,"text":"以目前為止,臺南的328億用電量部分,工業部門部分,用電大概是251度,佔大約7成。"},{"start":5288.083,"end":5311.062,"text":"台南的工業用電需求非常的高你再檢視一下在南科的產值1.58兆的情況底下台積電啊貢獻了1.2兆但是台積電用電的比例啊就綠電的部分啊佔了整個80%所以台積電是目前的南科最大的用電大戶這大家都非常清楚心知肚明"},{"start":5312.093,"end":5323.977,"text":"台積電也早就提出他要加入這I100的部分I100的部分的目標值是203年的時候60%的綠電204年的時候要100%的綠電然後如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書我給大家檢視了一下2030年的台積電的整個全台能的總資源耗損量的話大概是247.75億度"},{"start":5337.312,"end":5366.016,"text":"但在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電比例上大概佔11%距離2023年60%他現在只有11%之多距離非常的遙遠所以關鍵其實在綠電可是台南市在整個太陽能發電的建樹購入的部分總共多少總共9,445件高達21度現在是全台南全台灣最高的"},{"start":5367.287,"end":5391.256,"text":"所以基本上這種情況底下各種方式以這種你從台南的來看的話他有沒有處理我再申訴給你聽另外一個部分整個光電確認是全國最高我們的整個在能源的負擔上面全國的這個蓄血量的能源負擔台南的水庫加總起來佔了56%總共佔了56%"},{"start":5395.017,"end":5421.937,"text":"所以呢在剛剛我在說的這些整個機組的換專的情況底下我覺得啦講白一點臺電呢在整個第一頁的時候說不能依照中南部的這個送電也就是不能依賴南電北送但是你們現在的開發的政策依然是南電北送啊部長你們實際的說的跟做的不一樣"},{"start":5424,"end":5451.085,"text":"說的是說不要南電北送希望北部負擔多一點但做的呢就是要南部負擔多一點報告委員我想如果是如你所說的說我們說的跟做的不一樣那這個我們要回去要來檢討一下為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣對 部長問題就出在這邊嘛現在所有都跑到南部去了我再來跟你講你為什麼會有這樣的結果"},{"start":5453.086,"end":5480.35,"text":"依照整個你們提到的10年的這個電力規劃上面我提到說有放寬這個PPA合約要為了滿足用電的需求為了追求這個KPI的部分目前是只有九威跟中江你知道嗎你拿九威跟中江的類比老實講是很奇怪的中江它在原來一個工業區舊工業區裡面它旁邊根本沒有所謂的住宅區的問題"},{"start":5482.494,"end":5498.572,"text":"這你清楚嗎?更何況中家本身背後的業者是房地產業者你真的確定他的專業嗎?再加上中家本身還有銀行連帶的問題你有去了解嗎?結果台電發出來新聞稿說中家是成功的案例"},{"start":5499.619,"end":5517.311,"text":"跟你講你沒有去了解實情現階段的整個久違也是拿PPA的狀況這種情況底下齁我跟你講短期內你要透過民間的這些電廠達到你十年計劃的情況底下老師說我是抱持著存疑我也讓那個院長知道"},{"start":5519.429,"end":5535.034,"text":"整個經濟部寫得非常好聽20GW要成長到47GW但是也不用悲觀我跟院長跟部長說明為什麼因為可以超支債給的在哪裡在台電本身在經濟部本身在能源署本身"},{"start":5535.974,"end":5560.555,"text":"人權署不要把只有把責任下放給台電而已你去看看喔,台電的機組當中不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通宵、協和這幾個機組你10年起來加不來台漢布蘭岡是16.6GW也就是在你總體的新增計畫當中呢遠遠超過一半以上再加上你既有的這一個機組是不是要馬上研議還有調度的空間啊"},{"start":5561.84,"end":5590.311,"text":"所以你天然氣的這個達標的可能性是有的啊不是沒有的啊 部長你怎麼說你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡你們可以要求了應該是要求台電要求能源署為什麼這些機組不會像有新生的機組這些問題新生的電廠這些問題因為他不用同意函嘛他不用環比嘛他只要將原來的機組來做個替換就可以了只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已啊"},{"start":5591.841,"end":5617.287,"text":"那個部長你回去想一下為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢為什麼為什麼別人要三年你們要六年這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下你才你才趕快想要修改這個辦法要修改的辦法呢你對我講什麼說台電的說法說要因為啊環評要兩年所以你要放寬"},{"start":5618.533,"end":5648.02,"text":"放寬這個所謂電業規則第三條的規定把環評跟同意書拿掉用這種方式來做處理結果呢你這樣的情況底下這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達你給廠商這些入廠券他沒有辦法處理他說兩年我跟你講久違到現在已經兩年了部長久違在前年的時候10月給他跟他簽約的到現在兩年了到現在大家還在抗議啊對啊"},{"start":5649.656,"end":5671.851,"text":"有比較快嗎?就結果來看,也沒有比較快啊,只是擾民而已啊。有達到你的政策目標嗎?部長,你好像要講話,讓你講一下。報告委員,我想九威這一個是,雖然投標的時候,這個免備還平跟地方政府的同意案,但得標以後仍然需要。"},{"start":5672.935,"end":5682.207,"text":"所以經濟部在發這個這個籌設或者擴建的許可你這樣的情況底下他如果萬一沒有辦法得標的情況底下他是不是上面一直繞來繞去"},{"start":5683.729,"end":5705.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5706.377,"end":5721.628,"text":"是保證表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可可是他到處給你辦那個公聽會謝謝謝謝委員這個這不是造成人心惶惶嗎我們大概在之前啊他們在在處理這件事情的時候沒有考慮到委員所知道的這個部分"},{"start":5722.388,"end":5748.561,"text":"對嘛 這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討你要深刻檢討 部長 深刻檢討的方式呢就是依照電業登記規則電業登記規則訂的是誰訂的 是政府訂的啊經濟部訂的啊 能源署訂的啊你可不可以授權給台電那麼大的空間三項可以變成 五項可以變成三項你應該留著自己控管才對啊我們還是依法行事啦因為依法行事才對嘛 對不對是 但會感覺上就是 欸 能源署啊"},{"start":5749.807,"end":5773.799,"text":"都要當好人,壞人要台電去當讓台電衝在最前線台電要把他轉包出去給廠商放在最前線層層下放大家爭相當好人,沒有要當壞人大家都想要那個結果、業績不想要扛那個責任就形成這種文化,對不對所以我建議部長應該把這個主導權拿回來"},{"start":5777.924,"end":5800.591,"text":"甚至能把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已那台北要轉發包給民間電廠這層層發包結果怎麼樣你來自於商界你最清楚嘛所以我真的是在這個時候慎重的提醒你錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正"},{"start":5802.97,"end":5819.552,"text":"所以說我請你回去之後好好想清楚依照現有的這個機制當中要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來不要造成地方的一個紛紛擾擾可以嗎可以好最後我要跟部長講部長再來講為什麼對能源署有意見"},{"start":5821.414,"end":5841.84,"text":"你們在八月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書啦,裡頭寫得很清楚,要用屋頂行為優先。因為呢,你們地面行已經,地面行12,要12,屋頂八基加碗,八基加碗政策目標已經達成了,可是地面行沒有。你對我來講說可能到2026,這個我可以理解,我可以理解。"},{"start":5843.32,"end":5867.491,"text":"但是我必須說你後面的部分還是要屋頂型為優先你們一開始是這樣子你那種說法讓人家覺得你好像要走地面型為什麼說走那個屋頂型呢因為台灣的整個面積本來狹小你用地用了之後那不知道20年以後的事情但就整個用電的比例最多其實集中在都市區六都當中佔了60%所以說都市建築當中的屋頂的這一個光電的這一個承擔責任應該責無旁貸"},{"start":5872.332,"end":5872.352,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5923.39,"end":5928.191,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝郭國文委員的諮詢。謝謝左院長跟經濟部長的備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第三號,王鴻薇委員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長。麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢。"},{"start":5957.753,"end":5970.709,"text":"黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據"},{"start":5972.091,"end":5986.647,"text":"施上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,"},{"start":5989.97,"end":6017.477,"text":"新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長"},{"start":6018.317,"end":6032.676,"text":"昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份。所以你是以被告身份?是。好,那麼我就請教院長。"},{"start":6033.905,"end":6058.759,"text":"操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下"},{"start":6059.679,"end":6074.036,"text":"以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,"},{"start":6075.353,"end":6089.113,"text":"被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣而定的所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院細數當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點"},{"start":6091.176,"end":6114.069,"text":"我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的"},{"start":6114.969,"end":6115.189,"text":"委員,我們"},{"start":6144.741,"end":6151.797,"text":"在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題"},{"start":6153.035,"end":6180.062,"text":"我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。"},{"start":6181.132,"end":6209.673,"text":"那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責臺灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指臺灣是半導體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他講的當然是他講的"},{"start":6210.99,"end":6238.466,"text":"那我...你不要講廢話了,你同意嗎?我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊,我怎麼去...他沒有問你,我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長,你同意嗎?"},{"start":6239.566,"end":6259.682,"text":"當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問"},{"start":6261.443,"end":6277.619,"text":"因為我遺憾的是川普不是第一次說一說再說如果他當選之後那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力兩位同意吧"},{"start":6278.889,"end":6303.395,"text":"報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人"},{"start":6304.531,"end":6316.192,"text":"他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話台灣更重要因為台灣有半導體業"},{"start":6318.393,"end":6337.931,"text":"那麼我們要發展半導體我們要發展AI我們的台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生他在這兩天接受媒體的採訪他說如果台灣要發展AI必須用核電不可他說呀"},{"start":6338.812,"end":6338.972,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":6369.612,"end":6396.282,"text":"剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展"},{"start":6397.222,"end":6411.826,"text":"如果能夠達到大家有共識（我們的能源政策有錯誤嗎?我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動好 我知道啊 院長講得非常含蓄啊你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話"},{"start":6414.827,"end":6427.211,"text":"我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。"},{"start":6429.701,"end":6450.794,"text":"。（"},{"start":6450.954,"end":6461.92,"text":"二號和二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅總共條幅高達66%之多（"},{"start":6467.523,"end":6477.065,"text":"所以我今天把我們核二廠一號機、核二廠二號機、核三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價"},{"start":6494.449,"end":6502.152,"text":"至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯"},{"start":6510.114,"end":6523.94,"text":"部長、院長你知道嗎?事實上早在今年的三、四月的時候,國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前,對不對?都已經回復了,但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢?剛才院長也點頭,我們為什麼還要漲價呢?"},{"start":6529.702,"end":6556.465,"text":"因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了"},{"start":6558.319,"end":6582.566,"text":"包含童子賢先生也講的核綠可以共生了核綠可以共生你不要等到未來的這個核電生出來現在的核電就可以共生所以我再非常沉痛的來問一下院長核三廠全面除役是一條不能回頭的路嗎好兩點答覆委員第一個我們剛剛講的是"},{"start":6584.468,"end":6611.559,"text":"凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經上下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回價下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題"},{"start":6612.947,"end":6641.778,"text":"河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們改人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做"},{"start":6642.598,"end":6664.213,"text":"現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,我為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都把你把它做出來了。"},{"start":6666.147,"end":6680,"text":"電價上漲臺灣的電價上漲不是隨著國際能源價格而波動而是隨著核電廠廚藝而一步一步的上漲今年兩次欸今年調兩次之多欸"},{"start":6681.201,"end":6700.308,"text":"所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說"},{"start":6709.636,"end":6736.483,"text":"台積電現在在日本設廠美國設廠嗎在德國的設廠他說在他的各的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的對為什麼呢因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓台積電自己發電啊就讓台積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊不是核二廠已經除役了對不對核二廠經常在供電"},{"start":6737.803,"end":6753.007,"text":"為什麼經常在供電因為河外廠的汽渦輪機組要供電不然不夠啊那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話一度電多少錢部長知道一度電多少錢嗎現在喔台積電的電價的部分你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少"},{"start":6760.725,"end":6764.568,"text":"臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電"},{"start":6786.906,"end":6812.254,"text":"臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外致有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的"},{"start":6814.616,"end":6836.852,"text":"臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度我們只要一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長啊如始不時人間煙火啊委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心"},{"start":6839.834,"end":6861.236,"text":"雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀"},{"start":6893.993,"end":6922.815,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝王鴻薇的質詢謝謝總院長及經濟部長的備詢謝謝報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽是本院盧憲一委員邀請來自政治大學原住民資源中心的所有同學熱烈歡迎大家"},{"start":6925.287,"end":6926.872,"text":"在接下來我們請登記第4號張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":6972.754,"end":6995.835,"text":"請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備選張委員好委員好一定要保定好那個我們最近這3年已經漲了4次電價了"},{"start":6998.39,"end":7025.792,"text":"我相信以你們這麼接地氣應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音現在是連台積電剛剛在談因為台積電在法收費上面都埋怨了結果你們剛剛還在爭辯我們看一下台積電怎麼說來台積電是在法收費喔在說台灣的電價三年漲了四次他們每度電的電費增加多少將近一倍"},{"start":7027.176,"end":7029.317,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7054.906,"end":7060.049,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7084.861,"end":7088.823,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7111.238,"end":7128.515,"text":"委員長,我真人不說假話啦,剛剛為什麼特別提到?你們每次都當男人談來比,我跟你講男人談現在最新的,你只看到人家漲電價,人家為了要把電價降下來,人家最近要重啟10個新的核能的反應爐。"},{"start":7130.049,"end":7146.044,"text":"現在核電一度就是1.1、1.13啊,人家都在做努力啊,其實我們現在不是,我們現在看到什麼,你們把最便宜的核電停掉了,然後去買了很多的再生能,真的可以爭取啊,可以做啊,問題你們買的都很貴,現在產生弊案啊,現在電價會產生這個問題,包括台積電會埋怨,是這兩個大的問題,好來,現在更重要的。"},{"start":7152.165,"end":7179.582,"text":"因為院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊你們要有國際觀啊去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做為了打造AI智慧島這是你們的理想嘛對不對信誓旦旦跟人民講結果你沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠所以台灣你一賣就沒辦法設這個AI了然後你看國際怎麼做來你看看Google啊說因為AI訓練太耗電了"},{"start":7180.916,"end":7198.6,"text":"GOOGLE去買了7座的核能反應爐買了7座的核能反應爐然後呢?微軟你看微軟要用哪邊的核電?院長,我們從小就...美國發生山梨島事件的災變嘛對不對?"},{"start":7201.713,"end":7227.378,"text":"微軟用的是山梨島要重啟的核電所以你們一直在讓人們覺得很恐慌說核電多危險核電沒辦法處理全世界先進國家發生311核災的日本現在都重啟核電美國連山梨島這個地方都要重啟要供應給微軟你剛說你對我們這個國際大廠要來台灣有信心最可能的就是灰島嘛對不對"},{"start":7228.969,"end":7253.412,"text":"黃澄清阿公我印尼回台灣阿可是第一個我要一百億度電的綠電阿我們可以給他阿博定你保險你當時要給他一百億度的綠電的那個綠電我們當然他只要他開出條件我們就可以做阿那台灣現在博定你知道阿你怎麼這樣亂贏弱勒你知道台灣現在的綠電有多少"},{"start":7254.922,"end":7257.443,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配"},{"start":7273.806,"end":7273.826,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7290.47,"end":7312.402,"text":"開關開起來就有了這個是要創電那綠電基本上它有幾個綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換然後稀有的燃燒可以去探捕捉的都可以形成零碳保定保定你請人家說要提醒你要緊嚴慎行"},{"start":7314.113,"end":7331.178,"text":"我們通常...通常...你是很好,你很有創意,不過我跟你講,你這個很不切合實際。到目前為止,整個國家發展這麼久,就是200億度的這個綠電,結果你一下說引漏人家100億。沒有啦,保定,你去努力啦,你回去,保定。過去到現在,不是我做保定啦。"},{"start":7332.15,"end":7333.211,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7350.02,"end":7371.98,"text":"我們現在的綠電的比例但16%左右百分之16左右我們預計到2030年我們綠電要生長到成長到百分之30%就是我們要加倍的成長我們來一個簡單的方式都是有應該是共同來促進這個事情而不是現在就認為說一定做不到我想回到各個你們縣市區委員也在爭取"},{"start":7372.6,"end":7396.928,"text":"加以多設一些科技園區我們就需要更多的電還好我們有這麼多的綠電否則這個世界大廠要來這裡基本的條件都達不到那個院長我們來一個做一個最簡單的數學題大概國小程度啦過去的八年蔡政府政府增加了多少的再生能源5.1%嘛被你5.1%我問你數學題嘛那你說未來的兩未來的兩年你沒有達到20%增加10%"},{"start":7400.956,"end":7430.124,"text":"這可不可能達得到,你們回去算一下,我不要答案,你們算,說全國民眾水準都很高,算一下就知道你在講天荒夜譚,AI的進步也不是數學題,它是幾何題,我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成,現在我們極力在推,那共同努力嘛,來來,我們共同想辦法好不好,來來,我們想一個辦法,現在核市場一直丟在那裡,我們剛剛講,我們剛剛講了Google,講了微軟,一定,來一定你想辦法這事情,有沒有考慮,你剛剛講再生能源啊,"},{"start":7430.782,"end":7436.029,"text":"現在大家捨棄了RE100現在都在追求什麼CFE就是所謂的無碳電力"},{"start":7450.094,"end":7452.236,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":7477.21,"end":7477.711,"text":"你寫出來是示意"},{"start":7492.731,"end":7494.752,"text":"新北市的居民問一下新北市政府"},{"start":7520.814,"end":7548.979,"text":"總監你可以問一下你要促成你是行政院長你要讓我們的台積電讓我們的能源購我們請努力啦院長我們至少有四個優點第一個我跟你講第一個你的核廢料跟核二端的這個處理如果台積電是認了之後他可以幫忙處理這個問題第二更重要的台積電不是講說電沒搞對不對他就有足夠的電啊第三個你也不要再花錢去維護這四個就省起來對不對而且你會把副資產"},{"start":7550.322,"end":7550.523,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":7559.974,"end":7587.082,"text":"你要匯掉核市要花3000億喔委員我第一個我同意我們如何來處理核市場的問題但是把核市場當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠我認為是一個不切實際的這個不切實際不僅來自於我們的現在的狀況對於新北市的市民對於新北市政府來看都是一個非常遙不可及的道路委員如果有這個創意委員有一個創意可以去問問看你看看Google看看微軟怎麼做"},{"start":7587.702,"end":7611.523,"text":"微軟都可以去用美國森林島的核電啊為什麼核市場現在放在那邊為什麼不能處理啊來我跟你談更重要的問題健康的問題議長你這個報告的第三頁啊你今天報告的第三頁啊你說到10月22號你看一下台電的這個發電啊這個結構是燃煤"},{"start":7614.608,"end":7641.965,"text":"三十三點二趴（燃氣（四十九點五趴（再生能源（十六點零趴（十六零（我給大家看一下（你看一下這個圖（看一下這個圖（這個圖的右上角的時間點（就是你剛提的（十月二十二號（凌晨（五點四十（你知道嗎（你報告裡面的十六趴的再生能源（是零（"},{"start":7642.813,"end":7651.538,"text":"因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊"},{"start":7652.795,"end":7676.508,"text":"太陽能供電雖然要做可是它是不穩定的我們也說過再生能源有間歇性所以要靠其他的橋接來補電所以你要儲冷嘛儲冷一度電要多少跟大家報告一度電要7塊錢成本是高的院長我更重要提醒你大家聽我講這個牽扯到人民健康一定我們很多人那時候五六點都起來運動了嘛對不對"},{"start":7678.53,"end":7697.606,"text":"你在你講的這個時間點10月22日的凌晨全台灣有多少人在運動準備去上班特別在運動的都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了這樣行政院對得起人民嗎但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低降到三分之一囉燃氣它是低碳的喔院長"},{"start":7698.783,"end":7698.803,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7726.912,"end":7727.072,"text":"主席"},{"start":7744.912,"end":7761.19,"text":"你 你們有 欸 為政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康一定會選擇 你一定會選擇我們有責任講實話講實話 院長所以你怎麼樣 繼續讓人民當這個清淨的這個沒有 你這樣子指控你清淨的雞巴沒有 沒有辦法這樣子指控我再問你一個安全問題兩岸的關係 你在那畫抗中保台嘛 對不對"},{"start":7762.54,"end":7763.22,"text":"一年到一年半"},{"start":7793.154,"end":7793.174,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7816.55,"end":7818.771,"text":"我再提醒你一個點。日內瓦公約五十六條之一明定。"},{"start":7846.156,"end":7868.618,"text":"戰爭的時候,包括中美兩岸戰打起來,禁止攻擊民用的核電廠跟水庫,對不對?所以核電廠也是安全的啊,是不是這樣?好,我做一個簡單的總結,全世界都在反對核冷,只有民進黨政府現在心知白知還抱著,還意識形態,你還在反對核冷,你就看看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的這個個案,"},{"start":7870.415,"end":7891.53,"text":"非核家園是現在我們的法律規定我們現在的法律就是走邁向非核家園時間有限你看一下這個圖裡面深藍色跟淺藍啊都是正在用核電而且還繼續增加的只有一個地方紅色的那個就是台灣就是因為民進黨的意識形態最後我提一個點"},{"start":7920.534,"end":7938.344,"text":"我們是要肯定第一人的增加。好。謝謝。謝謝張旗開委員。謝謝卓院長及各部會所長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第五號,邱毅英委員質詢。"},{"start":7962.801,"end":7967.895,"text":"謝謝韓院長,我是不是請一下卓院長跟這個經濟部麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備選"},{"start":7976.787,"end":7995.993,"text":"院長早院長我想今天我們來討論臺灣的整體的這個能源的配比跟電價的相關問題那從早上從剛剛聽到現在我突然發現立法院變成了一個永永和大會來院長我讓您看一下"},{"start":7998.386,"end":8027.071,"text":"這個是在今年的10月22日由臺電去公布的臺灣現在的發電的能源配比很清楚的看到這個裡面沒有核電沒有核電臺灣的燃煤大概三成三左右燃氣大概將近五成49.5我們的光電跟風電也就是所謂的再生能源"},{"start":8028.977,"end":8031.839,"text":"臺灣因為核三的二號機組在稅休,所以臺灣現在是沒有核能發電的。"},{"start":8046.744,"end":8072.932,"text":"來院長這個要跟您請教這個是跟我們今天討論的議題有關能源配比我們剛剛談到了能源的發電方式包括燃氣燃煤光電等等但是我們一直討論到他的發電方式沒有人去真正討論他的發電區位在哪裡用電區位在哪裡院長請您看一下2023年北部"},{"start":8074.753,"end":8078.917,"text":"中部的供電量是783億度,它的用電量是620億度。南部供電有811度,但是它的用電只有745度。"},{"start":8098.218,"end":8117.67,"text":"換句話說我們都非常清楚臺灣長年都是供電區域不平衡院長您同意我的看法嗎長年都是南電北送用南部來發電給臺北使用來這個是未來"},{"start":8119.906,"end":8145.437,"text":"2025年的時候臺北北東的用電將會到達600萬千瓦但是只剩下和平電廠130萬千瓦可以發電如果我們的供電量繼續這樣發展下去北部的發電量跟用電量的缺口將會到達470萬千瓦"},{"start":8149.612,"end":8157.419,"text":"這個也是從台電拿出來的資料,院長您看過吧?我接下來要請,我要給院長一點時間"},{"start":8160.36,"end":8183.819,"text":"議員長您前兩天到這個桃竹苗去你說要開發桃竹苗大細股要停水電開發才會有希望我剛剛給您看的北部的供電缺口這麼大北部連蓋一個超高壓的電廠都會受到阻撓到目前為止臺電一直沒有辦法去施工那未來呢臺北人要用什麼發電"},{"start":8185.43,"end":8204.859,"text":"臺北的供電要從哪裡來那您說桃竹苗要去發展大溪谷大家現在都要去發展AI產業都要去做科學園區北部的供電哪裡來院長你說要提水電開發我可不可以再給你一點時間讓你再更詳細的說明你的水電開發要怎麼做"},{"start":8205.803,"end":8234.869,"text":"最直接最快速的看得到的當然就是我們第三接收站完成之後大潭電廠大潭電廠它就可以因為天然氣的使用可以順利的發電那它會逐步的提高它的發電量機組會開始運作另外一個就是現在還在努力環評的這個第四接收站將來的協和電廠也是要透過第四接收站來啟動它的燃氣機組那這兩個接收這兩個電廠它的量如果大起來之後"},{"start":8235.709,"end":8260.331,"text":"相對對於北東電網整個北部地區的用電會有明顯的改善目前是朝向降那其他的當然還有一些IPP民營電廠在做其他的這個努力建造過程我覺得我們還是要去說服就是說如果北部持續不給蓋電廠的話剛剛郭國文委員很強烈的反對把這麼多的電廠蓋在台南蓋在高雄"},{"start":8261.896,"end":8287.498,"text":"區域的發電平衡這個也是未來行政院應該要去考量的如果說產業的發展不能平衡的話那我們未來的這一些半導體啦AI產業全部拉到我們南部來嘛南部的電是足夠供應的嘛南部的水是足夠供應的嘛全部拉到南部來嘛對不對不能你用電要用在台北那又不給蓋電廠"},{"start":8288.991,"end":8291.417,"text":"又不給發展,這個太奇怪了吧。（"},{"start":8292.549,"end":8321.769,"text":"我還是希望能夠區域的平衡這種南北南電北送的這種狀況如果能夠把它做合理的規劃這用整個的這個輸配電的系統來看也是比較安全的是啊你的所謂的強韌電網的制度包括這個輸配電的成本降低這個其實都是在未來我們在談到台灣的韌性電網的整個大方向大計畫裡面嘛所以如果說發電的區域不能平衡的話"},{"start":8322.789,"end":8347.061,"text":"那我覺得我們南部人為什麼要一直承受南電北送這樣的壓力呢?更何況臺灣各地的發展會很快有適當的地點能夠得到大家地方政府跟地方居民的同意如果有好的地點適合開發我們也認為及早能夠儲備更充裕的電能對南北中各地都是需要的"},{"start":8347.537,"end":8375.188,"text":"多元能源的開發這個我是非常支持在經濟部的經濟委員會的質詢裡頭我也多次去強調但是你要看到這個工商產業重工業在南部發電在南部我要跟你談到這個問題未來會講到碳費的分配比例啊那我們南部多爭取一點環境部跟我們說這個不是財政分張啊這個我就不能接受啦院長"},{"start":8377.25,"end":8377.27,"text":"。 三"},{"start":8390.133,"end":8413.66,"text":"這樣不合理嗎?這樣你跟我說這個叫財政分贓。我不知道部長那個環境部是不是講得太快啦。但是如果就這樣的一個邏輯來看,我勢必是要替南部多講一些話,要替我們高雄多講一些話。來,部長。碳費在這個環境變遷法當中是有它的使用的限制性。報告委員,其實因為是媒體問我說這是不是分贓,我說碳費當然不是分贓,利益分贓。"},{"start":8414.58,"end":8430.448,"text":"如果大家誤解我向委員致歉事實上因為碳費有13個用途本來就有一個是要補助給地方因為盧市長說要八成給地方然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民基本上其實有13個項目在裡面"},{"start":8432.079,"end":8458.544,"text":"我們必須說整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府我認為我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題但是我講就是說區域的均衡發展我覺得對於南部的重視如果我南部減碳的減碳量比較高我南部的產業發展的需求包括你現在電廠都蓋在南部實際上你對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的我的邏輯概念是這樣好來"},{"start":8460.564,"end":8465.937,"text":"接下來那個環境部請回喔院長那講到這個發電講到用電量電價"},{"start":8471.345,"end":8497.136,"text":"剛剛大家也都在問嘛臺電這個電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價大家都說工業用電比較高那您也談到了臺電因為過去幾次的動漲所以臺電的財政缺口是很大的對不對所以我們在總預算裡頭我們也編列了一千億的撥補可是現在國民黨的主席說他們要發動大家來阻擋"},{"start":8500.21,"end":8525.607,"text":"臺電的這個這個撥補你的1000億補給臺電臺電是去吸收全民動漲民生用電動漲之後的成本是不是所以這個等於是撥補等於是幫助全民拿來把它跟淨法補償金一起做比較淨法補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的"},{"start":8526.26,"end":8545.223,"text":"但是對於臺灣的用電安全對於臺灣的整體的電價維持甚至臺電的營運這個一千億是必要的嗎院長您同意我的看法嗎是的好那未來你們會怎麼做呢我還是極力來爭取包括"},{"start":8546.169,"end":8546.229,"text":"。（10月30日（。"},{"start":8565.552,"end":8586.11,"text":"能夠得到大多數委員的同意。我希望周明之後能夠得到委員的同意。院長您的態度跟這個敗會其實是很重要啦齁。剛剛講到電價的問題我就要持續再請教你喔。好多的委員都說核電比較便宜,你同意嗎?"},{"start":8587.489,"end":8599.511,"text":"用核電有沒有比較便宜剛剛談到了韓國郭部長你也特別講了嘛韓國在10月24號又漲了工業電價9.7%又漲了9.7%韓國的發電量核電佔了三成韓國的核電發電量佔了三成所以韓國現在的產業電價他的工業用電的電價是也高過於台灣來"},{"start":8619.624,"end":8628.999,"text":"韓國現在的發電配比的核能佔了三成。如果核能是比較便宜的話,韓國為什麼在兩年內要七度調漲電價?"},{"start":8631.878,"end":8655.93,"text":"報告委員這個跟我們一樣主要他還是因為你看他的天然氣跟燃煤這個韓國本身沒有辦法採取到這個天然氣跟燃煤他一定要一樣跟我們從其他的國家來進口所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的所以他但是我的看法就是說核電並沒有比較便宜"},{"start":8657.803,"end":8680.38,"text":"對不是這樣嗎對對對你的核電的發電量如果說你的核電是可以這樣子cover的話其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛那大家現在一直都在問說核四要重啟要求行政院現在要重新評估核能核電的使用院長您剛有一句話講得很好有沒有去問過新北市的市民"},{"start":8681.682,"end":8705.738,"text":"合一、合二、合四都在新北。剛剛前一位委員說合三還可以放,還可以再放五年,所以那一核廢料可以放在合三,那有沒有去問過屏東人?反正不是放在他家,把人家都洗不掉,是這樣改良嗎?合廢料如果不能處理的話,要如何去談重啟核能呢?"},{"start":8707.415,"end":8719.439,"text":"報告委員這個韓國他們是在發展核能甚至於他把核能廠都輸出了但是你看看他這麼用心用在核能上面他也不是百分之百用核能"},{"start":8721.237,"end":8737.117,"text":"如果說他在推核能他應該要百分之百推核能他沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能所以我現在要跟您談的就是說我們現在你這個再生能源的配比核能在台灣是越來越萎縮"},{"start":8738.098,"end":8757.344,"text":"再生能源的配比是越來越高你看到我們現在的這個比重發電結構的比重包括我們在前幾天的風力發電都撐過了颱風的考驗我們的風力發電扛下了核電退場的空缺您同意我的看法吧因為這個風力發電它是綠色能源"},{"start":8761.428,"end":8764.671,"text":"未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候"},{"start":8780.006,"end":8780.026,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8798.652,"end":8819.504,"text":"我們當然是可以的因為現在的科技非常的進步所以我們可以去觀察跟去monitor他的狀況所以我其實是非常有把握的就是未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好而且就像您剛才所說的這個經過颱風的洗禮他還是屹立不搖"},{"start":8824.259,"end":8838.174,"text":"在中國那個是基本上他的信賴程度沒有那麼高所以經過一個颱風雨他就折斷了我們國產化的目的是讓他具有世界競爭力"},{"start":8840.336,"end":8864.001,"text":"如果是這樣,因為我最後剩下30秒齁,我本來還要問這所謂新能源的開發跟規劃啦齁,剛剛也有談到地熱跟氫能,院長你講地熱的成本很高,氫能的成本也相對高,但是我還沒有在報告裡頭看到具體關於氫能或者是地熱開發的這些時程進度,有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或者是給"},{"start":8865.181,"end":8891.382,"text":"立法院就你們現在有的規劃跟開發的時程地熱的深層地熱的開發目前在宜蘭園山正在探勘當中我們希望他能夠探勘出有一定的成果之後我們才向大家來做報告謝謝邱議員委員的資訊謝謝左院長部長的備詢"},{"start":8896.621,"end":8897.431,"text":"現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":9532.72,"end":9550.646,"text":"法院會現在繼續開會。我們接下來請劉許廷委員質詢。謝謝主席。左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。"},{"start":9563.433,"end":9581.839,"text":"這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論的是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一"},{"start":9583.92,"end":9608.189,"text":"發電、穩定供電是必要的。 院長應該不會反對這個事。 二任何政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久。 我想院長應該不會反對這個事。 第三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的。 任何一個政策不管是行程的階段、執行的階段、檢討的階段都應該廣大民意讓更多人來參與來問責。 我想這是重要的。 最後這個所有的政策我們"},{"start":9608.909,"end":9637.953,"text":"跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的要件如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合"},{"start":9638.553,"end":9665.114,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台4次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風"},{"start":9666.275,"end":9687.545,"text":"在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年921大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年1到6月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災"},{"start":9688.565,"end":9704.552,"text":"這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名"},{"start":9705.932,"end":9734.001,"text":"過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更"},{"start":9734.775,"end":9754.553,"text":"更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2"},{"start":9756.57,"end":9777.642,"text":"中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討"},{"start":9778.782,"end":9793.153,"text":"過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,"},{"start":9794.534,"end":9816.537,"text":"要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題"},{"start":9817.838,"end":9838.021,"text":"這個能源政今天的主題是電價的政策所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書台電在2017年其實都還有盈餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的"},{"start":9839.663,"end":9855.723,"text":"這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚你當然會講說這是這幾年烏鴉戰爭有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講"},{"start":9857.485,"end":9883.03,"text":"這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高"},{"start":9886.502,"end":9911.26,"text":"報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升那因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降"},{"start":9914.722,"end":9915.223,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9932.697,"end":9932.977,"text":"臺電收入支出盈虧"},{"start":9953.59,"end":9953.911,"text":"這個我要補充一下子"},{"start":9975.785,"end":9994.601,"text":"那個虧損的部分其實是我們補貼那個動漲的我知道等一下會稀算但我講的是總體財電的財政狀況綠電的占比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由"},{"start":9995.482,"end":10005.098,"text":"律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對"},{"start":10006.751,"end":10027.819,"text":"電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電"},{"start":10031.282,"end":10055.262,"text":"兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務色算他的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對"},{"start":10056.984,"end":10074.284,"text":"那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來,我們要改善台電的財務結構,這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期,到2028年,我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算,今年是處理完,我們編明年的預算,審議完之後我們再編明年的預算。"},{"start":10075.505,"end":10097.759,"text":"儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊"},{"start":10100.222,"end":10113.923,"text":"臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸的反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來"},{"start":10114.864,"end":10115.004,"text":"報告部長謝謝你"},{"start":10140.666,"end":10157.223,"text":"這樣的這個指教我來以後發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是完全不一樣今天因為時間有限我們還要聊一點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛剛講第一 能源政策總檢討"},{"start":10157.984,"end":10176.532,"text":"二、台電四年期的財務規劃要出來,要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準,你要如何說服大家,接受人民的納稅請來出名,對不對?好,你們都答應了齁,那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來,這樣子的一個設算的模型。"},{"start":10177.799,"end":10191.938,"text":"我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒"},{"start":10194.74,"end":10212.468,"text":"撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億"},{"start":10214.57,"end":10230.528,"text":"換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿"},{"start":10231.269,"end":10260.309,"text":"那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了五...要計預計花五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?"},{"start":10261.823,"end":10277.638,"text":"我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年"},{"start":10279.6,"end":10279.62,"text":"。 三"},{"start":10295.643,"end":10318.312,"text":"因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎"},{"start":10319.5,"end":10343.503,"text":"就是剛剛公委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個"},{"start":10345.004,"end":10370.296,"text":"過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦"},{"start":10371.196,"end":10385.27,"text":"財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。"},{"start":10392.608,"end":10415.024,"text":"但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助它具有競爭力但是它是必要的成本所以我們讓它可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話它相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間正波了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略"},{"start":10419.907,"end":10420.488,"text":"部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是"},{"start":10426.303,"end":10448.645,"text":"這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討"},{"start":10450.126,"end":10476.097,"text":"現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷委員質詢謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢接下來我們請登記第七號邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":10492.691,"end":10513.662,"text":"好,謝謝院長,有請行政院卓院長、經濟部郭部長。麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。院長早,院長辛苦了。院長第一個問題請教你,就是關於醫療機構,我們都動長,"},{"start":10516.448,"end":10537.459,"text":"那相關的醫事的機構也跟我有很多的陳情我也第一時間我也跟部長反映嘛針對其他的醫事機構目前電價電費動漲的情況進度部長您了解嗎還是院長部長先講報告委員齁這個醫事機構應一併納入電價動漲方案這個是確定什麼時候開始實施呢"},{"start":10548.191,"end":10560.563,"text":"應該這個院長已經有指示了我們會馬上來處理比照醫療機構大家都待會在立法院這邊質詢所以即刻動作還是從有一個時間點本來這個規劃當中經過電價審議委員會之後我們是認為包括學校包括醫院都應該由目的世界主管機關來"},{"start":10571.721,"end":10572.141,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":10598.025,"end":10612.53,"text":"我希望部長能夠擴大宣傳到底哪些醫事機構是目前已經即刻動長有些是下一個階段下一個階段電價審議委員會之後才會動長我們在上個禮拜五得到院長的指示"},{"start":10618.252,"end":10618.672,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":10648.512,"end":10669.659,"text":"這吸收的經費是由明年由2024到2025各編例一千億來彌補民生住宅的動棟缺口這兩千億,他主要目標是這樣嗎?從你的報告裡面是這樣寫喔補貼的補貼的撥補的這個預算經費不完全是這個部分還有一部分要針對任性電網對"},{"start":10674.601,"end":10701.456,"text":"這主要2000億是要針對這個動漲的民生住宅用電這個部分彌補這個缺口嘛如果說這2000億沒過2000億的這個電價補貼預算沒有通過台電該如何因應呢是不是會反映到民生住宅用電因為這2000億是要減退這個民生住宅用電的缺口嘛因為動漲嘛這是說的是今年明年的這個各1000億"},{"start":10702.837,"end":10729.799,"text":"對啦!對啦!對!那包括以前的以前年度的也有加1500億我是針對你的報告來提問啦!那這個國民黨的這個朱立倫主席說這兩千億的這個撥補預算他是堅決反對喔!我想國民黨團大概也不會支持啊!如果這種狀況之下這兩千億你要看到的是要針對民生住宅用電動漲的時候的缺口!如果這兩千億沒貴!沒有啦!"},{"start":10731.657,"end":10748.704,"text":"直接的說就是臺電的財務狀況跟我們現在所預估的又不一樣他可能會更加的問題那換回一場民生這個住宅用電的這個這電價呢那主要說波普的政策不能夠落實那台電的財務狀況又持續的擴大"},{"start":10751.24,"end":10777.799,"text":"那將來要再做如何的調整,電價審議委員會就會有他的考量。真的,如果擴大到不可逆,就可能就破產了。我們不希望這樣子做。所以這2000億你要讓社會當中知道,這2000億是針對動漲所產生的這個成本的缺口。如果這2000億不過,民生運用鏈可能會受到影響。如果民生運用鏈沒有受到影響,那可能台電受到很大的衝擊,它可能過了這個可逆點。"},{"start":10778.632,"end":10799.301,"text":"一可能財務一撞就沒有辦法再起死為生搞不好破產啦有可能的所以我們現在只有努力的希望相關的預算跟最佳預算都能夠通過你先看待這個預算這2000億是為了民生住宅用電的缺口所需去撥補的另外您的報告裡面針對橋間能源的規劃"},{"start":10803.083,"end":10830.11,"text":"2033年距離現在大概是將近10年你們增加17.86GW這些機組有哪有幾部燃氣機組分布在哪些縣市那就是大潭、通宵、興達、台中跟大嶺跟協和主要是幾個現有的電廠去增加機組對那您說這個如果規劃上限也有可能不會規劃上限需國人跟地方政府支持台電有哪些地方政府不支持"},{"start":10831.994,"end":10844.619,"text":"在你的報告裡面寫我當然希望希望能夠得到地方政府的支持跟配合我們在現有的電廠裡面去增加燃氣機組主要喬街就是低碳新型燃氣機組就快速啟停的特性"},{"start":10845.708,"end":10848.231,"text":"你會覺得為什麼到2033年沒有辦法如期建制呢?"},{"start":10865.786,"end":10877.316,"text":"這個可能我想臺電公司應該多跟這個地方政府還有這個地方的居民多溝通這個部分我們會責成這個臺電公司或者是外部的民營電廠也有可能"},{"start":10882.259,"end":10903.141,"text":"剛剛院長所說大部分都是這個目前的這個台電電廠嘛對不對主要主要你17.86GW大部分是由現有的電廠裡面去擴充的嘛我們現在比較擔心的問題就是剛才我想委員你所講的因為我們大部分會用這個低碳的這個天然氣所以這個呢我們還是要有一些接氣的這個"},{"start":10905.163,"end":10930.383,"text":"三階四階這些當然我們要全力去所以這個還要跟環境部還要跟這個地方政府要有一些程序上面的這個我想我們很樂觀很樂觀期待但是一定要全力以赴你說這條件如果能夠規劃上線就不會有缺電的問題喔對不對如果大家都支持我們台電然後支持我們的綠電"},{"start":10931.969,"end":10946.781,"text":"我想臺灣的這個高科技他要的就是這些綠電跟這個我們的電力那我順便請教您您說的核電的問題滿足核安解決核廢核廢能夠處理社會共識在我看起來是比較屬於抽象的標準跟前提"},{"start":10947.381,"end":10949.002,"text":"三項現在比較難的而且我覺得最難的是社會的共識現在社會上對於和"},{"start":10970.902,"end":10993.216,"text":"用核電或是不用核電幾乎是討論的空間是不多的所以我們現在兩條路一個就是對以後的新核能技術我們開放再來就是目前的核三廠的問題我們行政院必須依法行政明年的5月17號他就必須除役那現在核管法他就是這麼規定"},{"start":10994.693,"end":11008.829,"text":"那是不是有可能會變動我完全不知道因為我們現在是依法行政院長我的看法不只是社會共識它是高門檻核廢處理也是高門檻另外核案問題誰說了算這也是高門檻這三個高門檻變成超高門檻"},{"start":11010.103,"end":11010.223,"text":"主席"},{"start":11026.726,"end":11045.493,"text":"剛剛這些疑慮或這些保證得到一個發展我們現在也正在努力的在觀察當中好 下一個問題請教就我們如何加速這個綠電的轉型讓企業的採購環境能夠優化當然這是一個協會所提出的建議我覺得這建議可以提供給政府做參考"},{"start":11046.604,"end":11071.974,"text":"怎麼針對電政分離制度來降低企業採購門檻我想這個部長您大概是專家這個我國是不是有可能採行這部分可能要花多點時間討論第二個問題是說在供應鏈成本上漲那離岸風力國產化政策是不是有微調可能性這該怎麼調整這可能也需要經濟部去了解另外我們如何加強受限風險的分擔"},{"start":11074.015,"end":11090.841,"text":"瘦性風險檢討PPA漁電回購機制政府長您是專家但是很多人都不了解到底這個政府的政策方向在哪裡另外海洋光電獨立取得困難怎麼樣政府可以做一些的努力從中協助這四項議題"},{"start":11093.635,"end":11114.847,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這個分短期跟長期來看短期也就是2030年為止這個H100他們有規定大概在2030年他有一個第一個階段的目標那我們就是全力以赴就是2030年的時候我們讓台灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上那可以的話朝40%再努力2032年"},{"start":11116.988,"end":11117.008,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11133.616,"end":11156.978,"text":"馬上在既有的電力設施之下﹐我們可以增加﹐這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考﹐至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求﹐我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要﹐是﹐是﹐謝謝委員﹐那可能在委員會我們可以討論﹐剛剛你說提到深度接能﹐那203億﹐這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處﹐"},{"start":11159.364,"end":11177.74,"text":"這經費2百3億,這經費多餘來?你這樣對獎勵誘因民間資源投入,差不多要一百五十千億。落實這個產業應付,落實節電,這16億大概已經有在新增了。我想請教一下,這個是今年的預算,今年的這個編的預算。那150億要編在哪裡?"},{"start":11181.128,"end":11203.57,"text":"你那深度節能的部分我們編在那個中小微企業裡面的這個部分設備的太舊換新對 設備太舊換新的部分我們大概在那個我們有修改了一個那個什麼新創條例那個實質產業創新條例那我可能最近就會排因為有朝委嘛我就盡快排"},{"start":11204.61,"end":11227.217,"text":"讓這部分能夠及時銜接到法律面我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起然後來帶動建立一個模型這個方向是正確的我是擔心這203億沒有裁員這個另外的另外的部分這個屬於這個企業自己自發的這個這樣的一個領域然後203億那個是補助中小微的"},{"start":11227.737,"end":11255.83,"text":"但是我們有更大的計畫整個大概4年下來可能要花到上兆的預算但這個不在我們的時候公務預算裡面好 謝謝那下一個問題請教就是地樂地樂不像風力它有時間限制地樂市發電的效率比較高台灣市有很好的條件地樂資源豐富但發展非常緩慢我覺得應該有好的誘因、好的政策"},{"start":11256.77,"end":11274.441,"text":"到底為什麼誘因不足要去了解高碳開安的風險高的初期投資成本這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗近乎來朱德馬讓初期的成本能夠降低所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力但潛力沒有發揮這個很可惜很可惜"},{"start":11278.426,"end":11300.003,"text":"我提供這個議題給部長另外在委員會再來討論用電大戶條款這到底什麼時候會出爐本來是兩年之內要提出目前是5000千瓦以上是用電大戶現在2003年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告"},{"start":11301.223,"end":11325.671,"text":"到現在還是沒有那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐門檻的會不會提高這部分這部分你跟他們了解這會影響很大用年大戶的標準門檻這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整他必須要在依法要在2003年提出檢討報告兩年提出嘛那一直演一直演一直演"},{"start":11326.468,"end":11350.974,"text":"那你現在實施不出來到底用電單戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣檢討報告是法令要兩年要檢討一次那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐這很重要門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整這到底有方向嗎這個我想謝謝委員這個我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這一個題目我們馬上去了解一下"},{"start":11351.594,"end":11372.743,"text":"今天能源署也在,能源署也在,我在找時間來討論,因為這個很重要,大家都在問,到底會不會出現,會不會趕快出爐,然後門檻會不會提升,利率比例會不會調整。如果有這個規定,我們應該可以有這樣一個答案。在生能源發展條例當中,它一個條文是有規定到說,用電契約容量達到,剛剛委員寫到,5000"},{"start":11374.884,"end":11402.38,"text":"五千千瓦以上的電力用戶他必須自己要有一些再生能源的發電設備、儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電跟綠電比例會不會提高這個我們另外再討論最後一個問題比較重要的,剛好部長也在CPTPP我是促進會的會長我CPTPP非常重要明年度是澳洲擔任人事主席對不對好,我們在明年通過進入CPTPP的可能性到達"},{"start":11404.571,"end":11406.653,"text":"謝謝!謝謝邱志偉委員質詢!謝謝卓院長及經濟部部長的備詢!謝謝!"},{"start":11432.253,"end":11435.61,"text":"接下來請登記第8號徐新穎委員諮詢"},{"start":11462.983,"end":11477.692,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢徐文豪"},{"start":11478.749,"end":11504.799,"text":"院長好 院長您今天來報告能源配比以及電價政策這個是向全國人民報告是全國人民其實就是行政院的頭家頭家您認同吧是那這個全國人民沒有辦法這個全部來聆聽所以我們有了代議制那立法委員呢就是最高的民意代表是那代表國人來聆聽"},{"start":11505.956,"end":11525.846,"text":"那今天您的這份報告第一個本席覺得很奇怪這個電子檔一定要您報告完之後行政院團隊才能傳給我們各個辦公室可能是口頭報告的部分那這個是印在各位桌上都有的對對對好像感覺是一樣口頭報告比較簡化一點"},{"start":11530.915,"end":11554.438,"text":"這個報告也是今天早上才拿到,有一點慢,但是沒關係,本席今天看了一下。我們院長的報告,在整個報告裡面,我們一般在企業也是常常會有present,我想院長也知道。您覺得如果您的這份報告,如果是"},{"start":11555.857,"end":11575.234,"text":"我們的大企業家像郭台銘董事長他看了您的這份報告你覺得他給你打幾分這個報告是能源配比的跟專電價政策在電價裡面比較談到多一些數據在能源配比上面除了發電量之外對我們的財務狀況比較少觸及"},{"start":11577.519,"end":11598.921,"text":"您知道這邊裡面避重就輕不是避重就輕這個是報告的主題因為我們在所有的企業剛剛我聽到您跟牛許廷委員在這個答詢的時候有講用企業家的精神我不相信有任何一個老闆他聽到這個任何的報告裡面呢"},{"start":11599.96,"end":11625.767,"text":"一般認為時間、效益、成本這三個一定要觸及那現在環境永續又是所有面向要考慮的那我看到您的今天這份報告時間有提到我們到哪一年要做到什麼到哪一年要做到什麼效益提到部分避重就輕成本完全沒提"},{"start":11627.762,"end":11656.215,"text":"包括您提到我們的能源配比到今年2024燃煤多少燃氣多少特別強調再生能源達到10.5%風力光電多少但是您沒有告訴國人我們過去到底花了多少民眾的民脂民膏納稅錢我們到底花了多少錢得到些許些許的提升缺乏"},{"start":11658.068,"end":11683.721,"text":"這個財務報告也就是說成本你沒有告知比較粗險的算法就是我們在後面有提到在電價政策裡面有提到預估2024的電價成本每度是3.95你那個電價成本已經是後面了但是你到底投入了多少首先所以本席特別在這裡再講第二點就是說您上任的時候也特別提到我們的行政院團隊是"},{"start":11685.1,"end":11708.266,"text":"AI行動,對不對?智慧團隊嘛。那,如果要進入AI的時代,我們知道今年年底開始,很多手機就進入AI手機。這個Notebook也進入AI的筆電。那,您知道,進入AI時代,它的用電跟我們沒有進入AI時代差多少嗎?您知道嗎?"},{"start":11709.483,"end":11737.864,"text":"我這個在現在到2030年之前我們所需要的用電量裡面的分析台電已經經過一次再一次把需要用電量算出來他認為說需要的用電量需要到720萬千瓦可是我們可能會有900萬千瓦的供電量所以認為在2030年之前這個供電量是安全而無虞的2030年但是今年年底就進入AI時代了算出來了"},{"start":11739.133,"end":11765.072,"text":"那個算出來的本席在這邊跟您講如果你現在伺服器你轉成AI伺服器用電量馬上增加1.6倍來不來得及再來我們民間你應該知道現在一般民眾常常上網Google我相信這個院長你也有時候對什麼事情你也會去Google一下嘛對不對那用Google查詢跟ChatGPD這種AI的這種查詢呢"},{"start":11767.819,"end":11768.06,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":11777.915,"end":11806.115,"text":"我們台電我們的行政院團隊我們的很多的預估不要到出了問題才又一堆的托詞尤其現在你一直說用電夠但是其實民間常常反應好像常常這個電量不夠他們常常跳電很多中小企業有反應我不知道院長您知道嗎他因為跳電他很多機器燒掉那些都他自己吸收啊然後他不敢講"},{"start":11808.928,"end":11815.88,"text":"接著本席就要就這次我們提的這個能源配比還有電價政策首先來"},{"start":11819.374,"end":11842.663,"text":"蔡總統上任2016後大力發展離岸風電,宣布成立風電國家隊,喊出1.2兆產值,兩萬個工作機會。當時政府指示台電還籌組了離岸風電國家隊,當初很高調,也寄予厚望的政策。請問到現在有多少案子已經聯網發電,從受電回收投資的?"},{"start":11847.3,"end":11869.126,"text":"請檢答李彥鋒我們到現在總共的發電量2024年為止已經有2.7GW但到2026我們還會倍增到2028我們還要更增加我們逐年都有這個步驟對好您手上有資料本席也有但這個整個是進度落後的跟當初的預期"},{"start":11870.367,"end":11870.427,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":11889.448,"end":11890.148,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":11906.658,"end":11928.619,"text":"是報告委員我們都清楚這個凡事起頭難所以他的第一階段第二階段已經到現在已經進行到第三階段的三之一三之二所以已經進到一個在技術上大家是可以掌控的但是過去所累積下來的問題我們現在要逐步的解決包括委員所提的國產化問題那這個我們跟部長跟部裡面討論過好幾次"},{"start":11931.961,"end":11957.936,"text":"現在究竟要國產化還是市場化?部長不要講你的我現在就先問你接下來的政策是國產化還是市場化?重點的答覆就是在第三階段的3-13-1我們不變國產化不變3-2原則上也不變但是如果真的其中出現了這個工期啦品質啦等等有出現問題我們可以專案來討論但3-3我們主要的功能是在"},{"start":11958.596,"end":11982.005,"text":"培植我們的國內工程團隊能夠有國際競爭力希望他們能夠向海外發展所以33我們現在朝這個方向在進行所以聽起來3之3其開放就是國產化政策即將到中的意思嗎?報告委員我們是要不要講太長我時間不多我的意思就是說國產化如果只是看國內的市場就太小"},{"start":11983.165,"end":12002.596,"text":"本席了解那本席請教那些過去我們國內投入數十億甚至百億的廠商他們可以承受這樣的衝擊嗎他們沒有問題啊他必須要有競爭力啊所以等於這個政策反覆我們行政團隊就在維修沒有問題向上走的讓國內的國廠化的廠商具有國際競爭力這個上一次啊"},{"start":12010.76,"end":12014.144,"text":"政府的立場非常感謝參與國產化的這些業者沒有他們的參與我們前兩個階段也不可能這樣的展"},{"start":12029.679,"end":12029.719,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":12052.353,"end":12068.43,"text":"一既然提到離岸風電我們投入了大量的不管國家隊或是民間的資源結果呢我們目前到今年為止包含這個院長的報告裡面我們整個離岸風電佔整個供電量就是1.83%"},{"start":12071.152,"end":12091.44,"text":"但投入了那麼多資源,也是為什麼這麼多委員都建議說,那為什麼不用核能?當然核能的前提是要安全,本席也認同。剛剛也講,是不是綠電在國際有爭議,但它是潔淨的能源。"},{"start":12092.18,"end":12093.462,"text":"本席在這裡也要特別說明"},{"start":12111.785,"end":12123.943,"text":"韓國多份的官方報告指出長價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致其實本席在手上也看到我們從民國70年代用核電40%到50%"},{"start":12126.767,"end":12153.922,"text":"那80年代還有20%到30%90年代也還有十幾20%到100年以來呢就整個從17%降到5%所以這也是我們的電價為什麼一直漲一直漲過去民眾都很自豪政府也會說我們的電價是這個世界在世界來說我們是比較廉價的就是比較便宜的所以"},{"start":12154.682,"end":12179.103,"text":"本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長我們其實真的是可以考慮在安全的情況下可以考慮本席也聽到院長也回答說那你要問一問新北市民那本席也不禁問其實你火力發電你有問過中部地區的民眾嗎中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染他們是"},{"start":12179.824,"end":12181.205,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":12202.59,"end":12215.182,"text":"應該4加2變成燃氣機組保留6部是不會承受常備性的發電的他只有6部的燃氣機組這樣就會降低他的公屋這是我們對台中市民心中存滿的感激跟建議的做法"},{"start":12215.441,"end":12232.049,"text":"你不能只存滿感激跟建議有好的能源政策第一個不會用民脂民膏浪費那麼多的資源得到那麼少的效益尤其像目前我們政府的綠電其實很多剛剛也講到很多廠商他需要綠電"},{"start":12233.109,"end":12238.613,"text":"政府在大力推動再生能源的時候,有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置?廢棄的離岸風機不會只有台灣有"},{"start":12255.591,"end":12272.278,"text":"全球都會有啦?全球都會有,但是我們就要想那怎麼處置嘛?本席說未來,您可能還不知道,未來我們會一支葉片,它的重量就36噸,它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節的車廂,"},{"start":12274.719,"end":12283.49,"text":"在未來,我們有900枝葉片要破碎掩埋,它沒有辦法處理。那,面對這麼多900片的葉片,三萬兩千四百噸,"},{"start":12289.838,"end":12308.839,"text":"都要變成臺灣的垃圾山同時同時還有光電光電的廢太陽能光電板我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策在未來有十萬光盾我們公園院已經發展出來可以處理光電的技術"},{"start":12310.191,"end":12310.711,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12335.552,"end":12361.431,"text":"談能源配比談電價你要整體看你的時間你這個到底我們的這種綠能或再生能源你要用多久的時間多少的成本你得到多少的效益時間效益成本加上環境永續那你不能選最不好的方案啊你要選最好的方案好那最後最後最後本席"},{"start":12362.622,"end":12377.499,"text":"沒有時間了但是有關電價我們這個電價巨額虧損的政治責任我們現在沒有時間來爭論但是全民都知道填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案"},{"start":12397.307,"end":12400.648,"text":"謝謝學信委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、各位部會組長備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第9號何新淳委員質詢。謝謝院長。我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":12427.997,"end":12445.252,"text":"院長好 剛剛很多委員都不給你時間好好的回答那事實上在我們這個不管是能源配比或是發展再生能源的傳統的跟再生的我相信都有所謂的廢棄物這些廢棄物如何的去化那就是我們現在積極要"},{"start":12446.753,"end":12466.814,"text":"在還沒有遇到問題之前就要循環經濟要做得好我想希望環境部也應該要趕快的來思考這個問題包括剛剛部長有講的經濟部我們工研院有發展相關的一個技術跟專業那我為什麼要提到這一個同樣的臺灣占九成以上都是中小企業"},{"start":12467.756,"end":12478.776,"text":"臺灣的中小企業傳統產業那也會碰到如同我們要需要建制循環經濟去化廢棄物的一個非常重要的因素那我接著就要問喔景氣"},{"start":12480.632,"end":12509.53,"text":"上個月我們都認為說傳統產業經濟有回春但是我們今天看到報紙上這個傳統產業的經濟景氣好像是曇花一現因為9月份又回到黃紅燈那院長中小企業剛剛你有回答其他的委員說我們也非常重視扶植中小企業微型產業我們也願意編預算要來扶植那我請院長跟部長"},{"start":12510.51,"end":12519.237,"text":"是不是可以第一個就這個中小企業的這個景氣回春不如預期那我們行政院要如何的來扶植"},{"start":12520.936,"end":12546.423,"text":"就明年的中央政府總預算委員也應該清楚我們有編了115億對於中小企業的多元振興方案所以對於傳產跟中小企業我們希望將它輔導它能夠快速進入到一個數位轉型的年代它才能跟得上潮流這個是我們現在做法那其他對於一些節能的補助我們在經濟部也本來就有它現行的機制在處理"},{"start":12546.883,"end":12549.965,"text":"本院議員提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":12570.035,"end":12587.203,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、"},{"start":12598.889,"end":12598.909,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":12615.928,"end":12635.182,"text":"福祉預算可以把它擴大無限大真正幫助到中小企業微型產業的不管是數位轉型也好或是淨零碳排的目標也好這個我想包括環境部包括經濟部包括國發會都必須要跨部會在行政院的指導之下領導之下要能夠做得到是不是院長"},{"start":12637.034,"end":12657.83,"text":"是,如果是財務的部分我們透過中小企業的信保機制可以給他一些比較低利的貸款至於說如果是人員的訓練的話他要訓練足夠的AI人員我們希望用政府的力量來幫他訓練他應該不需要付出其他的這個費用、經費那這樣人員跟錢都有了我們還有其他的政策來協助他"},{"start":12658.19,"end":12676.121,"text":"院長你講一個人人不是只有政府來幫他訓練是這個人也很難找今天報紙也有講到全國大缺工也希望行政院能夠帶頭來開會來討論在面臨少子化的當下還有呢我們呢相關的不確定因素情況之下這個"},{"start":12677.862,"end":12706.908,"text":"不管是人才不管是員工這個各行各業都缺工我們對於缺工對於低薪帶引進外國的中階技術人員我們都一直在討論到禮拜天還在討論是所以我希望能夠更進一步的看到行政院在跨部會的這個合作之下我再強調一次我們對於中小企業微型企業的一個扶植是要能夠到位真正能夠落實來部長好像有事"},{"start":12707.288,"end":12732.43,"text":"這部分我想要謝謝這個委員在前幾天有指導過我們的這個產發署確實是如你所說的我們確實在執行上面有利有未待之處然後沒有很落實到最後的微型企業這一點我大概從那天這個委員的指導之下我們大概非常清楚我們會改正這一部分一定要能夠落實到"},{"start":12733.151,"end":12733.171,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12761.368,"end":12778.868,"text":"我希望委員會來好好的去盤點這個執行的方式那這個中小企業跟微型企業呢最關心的就是政府的補助他們能不能受惠能不能感受到政府的支持跟溫暖"},{"start":12779.749,"end":12794.376,"text":"因為我一直強調半導體很重要臺灣的護國神山但是呢中小企業、微型企業也很重要他是我們的護國群山他照顧了最多最多的臺灣在地的員工我們執行的人員會來請教這個委員的經驗"},{"start":12797.817,"end":12798.778,"text":"中小企業、微型企業關心民生議題、電價、穩定供電、不要停電。"},{"start":12816.75,"end":12844.756,"text":"穩定供電不要停電大家都會講但是怎麼做是最重要的那前幾天賴總統也在開會的時候有說要強化電網韌性而且呢原來要求台電10年完成的一個計畫要能夠提早4年希望2028呢就能夠優先完成關鍵的區域跟民生相關的關鍵工程那院長請問我們政府現在準備的狀況如何那如何提早這個"},{"start":12847.476,"end":12875.863,"text":"電網韌性的這部分原來編列5600億的預算10年完成那現在我們希望他能縮短到2028年完成因為總統認為早一天完成對供電安全有幫忙所以要求早一天完成所以就責成經濟部我們希望他即使動用一些獎勵措施都沒有問題早一天完成也可以早一天達到淨零碳排的我們的總目標啊對不對因為我們都知道來部長對不起這個我們現在目前已經都把那些表做出來"},{"start":12876.87,"end":12898.159,"text":"做表很簡單,不長路,做表了之後如何去執行到位才是重點,已經在執行中,我們希望能夠這樣的做法在明年的上半年,可以把所有的紅區全部把它消滅掉,"},{"start":12898.339,"end":12915.558,"text":"那部長那我問你要做表你說好那執行那關鍵區域在哪裡關鍵就是說在你的提早的這個時程提早我跟你講表我看了很多啦那十年的規劃呢我也看了好幾年我做到現在第四屆立委大概也看了好幾次了啦那問題是呢"},{"start":12917.08,"end":12917.24,"text":"主席"},{"start":12932.708,"end":12959.841,"text":"公司一般民生的申請用電啊那個排隊是白幹肉肉等啊有時候可能還排到半年呢才等得到所以我現在在講那現在這樣子的一個總統要求提早4年要把這個電網任性的要把它提早完成建置因為這牽涉到什麼第一個穩定供電我們的電網輸配電的電網如果沒有改善的話我們現在老舊的電網他的輸配電啊是耗電的"},{"start":12960.796,"end":12960.816,"text":"。 三"},{"start":12980.987,"end":13000.809,"text":"我們現在這個地區已經都知道在哪裡然後人力因為現在比較不足所以我們現在跟勞動部正在談如何快速把這一些這個橋外生或者是國外的這個移工進來但是他們要考照所以他必須要透過一個訓練然後去考照"},{"start":13001.309,"end":13018.218,"text":"先進來的人先做不需要技術性的工作但是一年以後當他考到執照以後他就可以做台電的這個下包去服務剛才委員所關心的專案我們現在一直在進行啊一直在進行"},{"start":13018.818,"end":13039.226,"text":"專案引進外籍移工、引進技術工、在台的僑外生我們希望也輔導他們能夠進入這個職場然後輔導他們的專業跟考照大家比較擔心說他會不會進到台電沒有,他是台電的下包的公司所以不會侵犯到台電的員工的福利"},{"start":13040.186,"end":13065.711,"text":"我們都考慮了很多這個也在這個院長的這個指導之下我們跟勞動部都已經談了已經快人都快引進來了但我剛剛問的這個是工的問題對不對那關鍵的區域呢民生的關鍵工程這個是總統指示的我們要提早的對對對這個我們還是進行既有的人力趕快的把那個紅區的部分"},{"start":13066.65,"end":13068.031,"text":"臺電的穩定公信還是不太有信心?"},{"start":13086.221,"end":13114.915,"text":"是啦 報告委員 為什麼最近你看我的頁面上最近幾次喔雖然不是大規模停電但是呢小區域的停電還是不斷啊我們中小企業、微型產業不管是服務業也好或是一般民生用電也好關心的就是我剛剛講的停電如果是無預警的停電的話損失是誰在承擔是民眾在承擔是產業在承擔是業者在承擔而這些成本"},{"start":13116.991,"end":13138.276,"text":"我們有一些跟地方政府必須要再強化溝通,高壓轉到中低壓的部分必須要設變壓站,但是那個變壓站如果不讓我們設的話,他那個地方就是紅區了。 這個不是跟地方政府溝通,這個是要跟在地居民溝通,而且是要讓居民恢復對台電的信心,以及認為"},{"start":13139.236,"end":13142.098,"text":"本院內政委員會提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":13154.966,"end":13173.444,"text":"但是我們現在上來的我們台電的同仁的努力之下現在台北市政府撥給我們那個設置那個變電站所以這個是一個非常這個改變非常大的改變我會建議經濟部跟我們環境部跟衛生福利部要跨部會的去合作合作什麼第一個"},{"start":13175.386,"end":13189.941,"text":"盤點過去的設計規劃的預定地到底在現在有的已經是20年前的規劃不是現在的規劃那要重新去檢討這第一個第二個我們應該就這個我剛剛提醒的"},{"start":13190.842,"end":13190.862,"text":"。 三"},{"start":13221.583,"end":13246.703,"text":"設置突破現在的盲點這個不是我們應該要積極的嗎我們持續在進行我們一直都在進行這一方面事實上現在我們的同仁的努力改善了很多啦改善了很多這個如果說我們調資料來看過去的幾年到現在我們真的是改善非常多但是我剛剛講了跟衛生福利部跟環境部的這個共同的合作目前是沒有看到的"},{"start":13246.923,"end":13264.575,"text":"是這個是一個非常好的這個這個意見你同意嗎對不對對環境的影響是對健康的影響到底有沒有到底能不能讓民眾居民放心來支持我覺得這個很重要所以最後的最後才會跟你講真正電網"},{"start":13266.656,"end":13291.664,"text":"任性有沒有到位裁判是誰裁判是民眾嘛就人民嘛大家對台電有沒有信心大家對我們的政府的穩定供電有沒有信心大家對這個供電的相關的設施設備會不會造成他生活中的影響這個都是我們政府要去積極的溝通跟面對因為什麼人民民眾是裁判所以民眾一般人最關心什麼院長"},{"start":13293.305,"end":13303.532,"text":"無預警停電的次數在我們投資這麼多來電網韌性能夠逐步到位之後無預警停電的次數可不可以減少?"},{"start":13303.532,"end":13306.374,"text":"二無預警停電的範圍可不可以縮小?"},{"start":13307.681,"end":13307.701,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":13344.517,"end":13353.68,"text":"好,謝謝何信淳委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及各部位首長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢我們到此為止,我們下午2點半繼續進行質詢,現在進行休息,謝謝。"},{"start":20715.58,"end":20717.021,"text":"韓國瑜委員會委員會主席"},{"start":20747.886,"end":20748.146,"text":"主席"},{"start":20792.568,"end":20797.87,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":20851.169,"end":20872.514,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20882.295,"end":20905.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20973.382,"end":20973.402,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":21593.991,"end":21598.946,"text":"委員會現在我們繼續開會進行專案報告之質詢接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":21614.671,"end":21629.766,"text":"謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長,好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。"},{"start":21636.786,"end":21643.72,"text":"蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個"},{"start":21645.828,"end":21670.699,"text":"就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本"},{"start":21673.407,"end":21691.386,"text":"也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?即現在,就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是"},{"start":21693.059,"end":21706.106,"text":"現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前"},{"start":21707.188,"end":21712.231,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":21735.368,"end":21751.342,"text":"幾個因素嘛那我想先跟院長跟部長先聊就是說就這個購煤的成本那如果現在不管是天然氣或者是煤價都相對回到戰爭前的因素的話但是未來"},{"start":21752.603,"end":21766.849,"text":"在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說賺錢的時候要賣多少"},{"start":21769.096,"end":21773.101,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":21784.096,"end":21798.83,"text":"因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳獨委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約"},{"start":21799.671,"end":21825.58,"text":"所以現在他所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況他可能是有長期的那我們現在是說如果現在有穩定的供貨來源在目前的情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見"},{"start":21826.18,"end":21854.486,"text":"因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的煤所以可能還是在高價的煤那我現在只是要藉由這個機會我感覺我們也要去判斷未來局勢不知道啊如果我們現在這個煤價好不容易回到了戰爭前相對低價反正這個時候我們沒有出手未來萬不贏的萬不贏歐洲狀況的俄羅斯的卵的卵一塊哇那怎麼辦所以台電"},{"start":21856.055,"end":21858.223,"text":"的長久的因應因為我們"},{"start":21859.124,"end":21879.238,"text":"因為我們對於這個煤價這個狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮的我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多"},{"start":21889.049,"end":21916.104,"text":"所以我們理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不要燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量漸漸就會降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於說這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要"},{"start":21917.085,"end":21917.305,"text":"主席"},{"start":21939.623,"end":21960.409,"text":"這個我們在計劃上面是有這就是要有你們有一個因應措施嘛對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊"},{"start":21961.429,"end":21979.678,"text":"對,我們在買這個材料啊,就是有幾個方式啦。就是說一個是,我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊,就載來我們的桶槽給,這是最方便啦。另外一種是我們這個供應方,在他們那個地方,給他們那些。"},{"start":21980.518,"end":21996.992,"text":"所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程我想這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在"},{"start":21999.975,"end":22016.589,"text":"所以這一個部分我們會參考我這個覺得齁我真的有必要愛愛輸客喔好那我第二個我要問啦齁因為台電啦齁市長瓦靠都給他一個名字齁這個名字聽起來齁我覺得還蠻好聽的啦就是物價消波快啦"},{"start":22017.383,"end":22021.526,"text":"臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在"},{"start":22039.338,"end":22060.181,"text":"一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候大概台電吸收了兩千八百億在二零二三年的時候吸收了兩千零八十六億在二零二四年吸收了一五五二億這是這段時間台電為了穩定物價以及為了產業的發展台電相對付出那後來我們知道說在今年年初的時候"},{"start":22060.942,"end":22080.057,"text":"我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編組這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助"},{"start":22081.798,"end":22094.652,"text":"所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多"},{"start":22095.738,"end":22122.325,"text":"不,補貼的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電"},{"start":22123.459,"end":22136.93,"text":"大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線"},{"start":22139.172,"end":22167.098,"text":"務價在漲的時候他要擋住穩定物價所以經常是非常辛苦的我們最近會對台電的紅人做比較大的一些感謝動作所以部長那我想要問一下就是說好那如果台電未來這部分的我們希望說他來負擔比方說一些弱勢團體的補助那回到了部會把預算拉回到部會事實上院長你剛剛就有說啦所以明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎"},{"start":22168.118,"end":22182.778,"text":"會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔"},{"start":22184.822,"end":22212.611,"text":"那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出也越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在"},{"start":22215.66,"end":22233.409,"text":"一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少"},{"start":22235.47,"end":22258.543,"text":"意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。"},{"start":22259.707,"end":22287.34,"text":"我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎"},{"start":22289.335,"end":22289.656,"text":"臺銀最多數臺灣銀行"},{"start":22303.691,"end":22324.57,"text":"臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行對所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望"},{"start":22325.251,"end":22340.368,"text":"因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故"},{"start":22341.206,"end":22368.583,"text":"他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的"},{"start":22370.662,"end":22398.684,"text":"臺電臺銀是比較大臺銀是比較大那如果我們成功從利率或是新的措施上面來著手來降低臺電但是也不會影響臺銀比較大的這個營利的這個我跟他說因為我們如果白白的臺銀就已經就是白白兩個都是關股嘛兩個關股之間可以去調整那如果我們去跟其他的比較民間的銀行有貸款的話歐益理事會可能"},{"start":22399.971,"end":22400.411,"text":"二、行政院院長"},{"start":22416.717,"end":22437.916,"text":"你把這個事件一攤三百幾我看起來我就嚇一跳所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉就是說我們需要利息的費用再把它壓下來對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊"},{"start":22440.056,"end":22449.022,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳的這個利息的這個金額"},{"start":22452.912,"end":22480.333,"text":"第二,我要感謝台電這幾年推動電纜地下化,有不錯的成績,在屏東種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在鋪子市也有開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道有一些紅胎,每一次紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,"},{"start":22483.013,"end":22491.687,"text":"等徽條得以,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電徽條更高"},{"start":22492.691,"end":22495.253,"text":"阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久"},{"start":22514.507,"end":22539.947,"text":"新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好的去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景、市容"},{"start":22548.295,"end":22574.883,"text":"謝謝蔡議員與委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第11位,洪森翰委員質詢。謝謝院長。那想請卓院長跟郭部長。麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢。"},{"start":22586.274,"end":22593.814,"text":"董委員好呃主任長跟郭部長齁其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員"},{"start":22594.625,"end":22621.979,"text":"其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點"},{"start":22623.291,"end":22651.113,"text":"每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝"},{"start":22653.359,"end":22669.777,"text":"那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示"},{"start":22670.68,"end":22695.634,"text":"那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個"},{"start":22697.881,"end":22723.907,"text":"有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那不然我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是"},{"start":22725.421,"end":22734.3,"text":"部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼"},{"start":22736.389,"end":22763.711,"text":"過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成"},{"start":22764.191,"end":22790.243,"text":"我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說滑樁這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題"},{"start":22791.663,"end":22815.545,"text":"也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅業能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同不同意完全同意"},{"start":22816.428,"end":22844.466,"text":"部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁"},{"start":22846.741,"end":22861.062,"text":"其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻"},{"start":22862.455,"end":22889.956,"text":"但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實"},{"start":22893.306,"end":22917.497,"text":"報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩因為我們還是看到問題我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策"},{"start":22918.437,"end":22942.959,"text":"市長 但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題我現在在說的事情是說我們過去明明看到有些是因為技術問題是因為融資財務的問題這些能力的差異應該要被鑑別出來可是在我們過去的這一整套的這個選商的遊戲規則裡面看起來對於這些具體的風險因素看起來好像沒辦法"},{"start":22944.445,"end":22968.258,"text":"他亦給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾"},{"start":22971.363,"end":22998.994,"text":"那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證"},{"start":23000.514,"end":23027.93,"text":"話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題"},{"start":23029.694,"end":23049.856,"text":"現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意"},{"start":23050.816,"end":23075.433,"text":"我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟你很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題"},{"start":23076.494,"end":23100.842,"text":"第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來"},{"start":23101.582,"end":23112.659,"text":"甚至可以聚焦讓他甚至未來有機會可以變成輸出發展的我們的這個項目那可以把這個彈性給拉大所以有兩個具體的建議部長你覺得都同意吧"},{"start":23113.868,"end":23135.768,"text":"一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長你們同意嗎"},{"start":23137.379,"end":23154.945,"text":"經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走尤其3-3的部分我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的"},{"start":23155.365,"end":23181.794,"text":"那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期併往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期併往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題"},{"start":23183.254,"end":23209.206,"text":"所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能"},{"start":23210.39,"end":23239.235,"text":"那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張"},{"start":23240.035,"end":23261.464,"text":"其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K"},{"start":23270.302,"end":23274.646,"text":"三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下"},{"start":23287.898,"end":23313.786,"text":"那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的短收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間"},{"start":23316.527,"end":23342.754,"text":"這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以"},{"start":23344.195,"end":23344.455,"text":"（10月29日（。"},{"start":23359.395,"end":23373.521,"text":"是的 我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算是"},{"start":23375.262,"end":23402.021,"text":"因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多那回過頭來你又說那我們不好去計算所以這裡面凸顯第二個我想要講的事情"},{"start":23402.481,"end":23424.731,"text":"我想部長應該很清楚我們之前大力發展光電離岸風電、地熱其實在經濟部內其實都有一個專業的幕僚團隊我想部長應該很清楚他可能是很多的法人在做支援的部分不是只單靠我們的公務人員那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此"},{"start":23426.131,"end":23449.236,"text":"導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的體貼的或者是合適的制度或費率的設計這是我們之前看到的狀況所以很多業者來跟我們說到他們覺得說如果我們要發展小水利就像之前光電、風電包括現在地熱的發展的話"},{"start":23451.776,"end":23454.338,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":23481.707,"end":23510.004,"text":"不然我這邊針對小水利第二個建議是是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封"},{"start":23512.301,"end":23527.833,"text":"接下來我們請登記第12位張家俊委員發言院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":23537.698,"end":23552.534,"text":"主委院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎"},{"start":23553.775,"end":23571.646,"text":"你說的是住商節電的設施嗎?不是,是遠端斷電計畫,遠端斷電計畫。很明顯喔,應該是官邸沒有加入,但是您自宅有申請加入嗎?沒有。沒有。那請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的這個部會首長們,有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":23583.134,"end":23608.172,"text":"你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔"},{"start":23610.313,"end":23610.553,"text":"臺電與其在這裡"},{"start":23635.948,"end":23648.987,"text":"打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼"},{"start":23650.029,"end":23669.997,"text":"我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個"},{"start":23672.068,"end":23689.095,"text":"天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%"},{"start":23690.031,"end":23711.3,"text":"是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了"},{"start":23713.359,"end":23731.711,"text":"我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎"},{"start":23736.334,"end":23756.928,"text":"能源配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大家就算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五,但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問"},{"start":23759.669,"end":23774.632,"text":"臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撥補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?"},{"start":23783.887,"end":23801.284,"text":"電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量"},{"start":23801.944,"end":23821.002,"text":"有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開,臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次,如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍。臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠,臺灣廠區現在是最貴的。院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?"},{"start":23827.768,"end":23846.498,"text":"第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣"},{"start":23847.358,"end":23847.978,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":23863.786,"end":23891.068,"text":"我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子"},{"start":23891.67,"end":23908.37,"text":"所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源那等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?"},{"start":23910.703,"end":23927.714,"text":"你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三"},{"start":23929.415,"end":23956.51,"text":"為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎"},{"start":23957.401,"end":23986.987,"text":"部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算波普兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們的發電的成本還是比較低的"},{"start":23987.227,"end":24012.128,"text":"我仔細引用一下昨天台達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到"},{"start":24013.53,"end":24042.264,"text":"我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是院長我相信你也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢"},{"start":24043.376,"end":24067.915,"text":"在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼"},{"start":24068.655,"end":24086.123,"text":"後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎"},{"start":24087.324,"end":24102.658,"text":"謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的"},{"start":24103.599,"end":24121.029,"text":"再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少它的負擔院長我必須再一次提醒您核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人"},{"start":24123.977,"end":24138.926,"text":"對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊"},{"start":24139.606,"end":24163.822,"text":"SMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦"},{"start":24164.082,"end":24183.914,"text":"如果這一方面研究有報告出來,麻煩提供本席一份好嗎?因為這事關著臺灣的未來,我們經濟會不會受影響?會不會開始衰退?我們人民的生活會不會受影響?影響非常的大。是,報告委員,我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦。"},{"start":24184.514,"end":24203.729,"text":"我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長"},{"start":24210.575,"end":24216.479,"text":"部長請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚"},{"start":24220.287,"end":24245.156,"text":"我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的"},{"start":24246.468,"end":24272.624,"text":"外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎"},{"start":24273.524,"end":24286.116,"text":"我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其中局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎"},{"start":24288.493,"end":24309.929,"text":"我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告"},{"start":24311.541,"end":24317.796,"text":"難道不需要停職嗎?這個情節是相當重大的耶!院長您覺得不需要停職嗎?報告委員"},{"start":24320.836,"end":24340.548,"text":"行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生篡證跟滅證的問題嗎"},{"start":24344.476,"end":24366.513,"text":"這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列成列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?"},{"start":24368.015,"end":24371.017,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源"},{"start":24387.323,"end":24411.699,"text":"這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理"},{"start":24412.574,"end":24412.954,"text":"政府應該主動出來"},{"start":24446.634,"end":24473.706,"text":"謝謝,謝謝張家俊委員質詢,謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。接下來請登記第13位鍾嘉斌委員質詢。主席,在場委員先進,列席的政府機關所長官員,在場的媒體記者女士先生,我們有請"},{"start":24474.622,"end":24500.9,"text":"我們卓院長還有劉竹偉、郭部長麻煩再請卓院長還有陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長中委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最新方案在此之前"},{"start":24502.154,"end":24518.056,"text":"這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我諮詢院長的時候我有提到一個臺南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案"},{"start":24518.956,"end":24542.332,"text":"就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於說什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為"},{"start":24544.059,"end":24568.413,"text":"路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來"},{"start":24569.554,"end":24596.404,"text":"二、要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是義無反顧的繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能你同不同意?交通先行發展社區這應該是一個非常正確的方向但是我們要投入比較多的建設資金"},{"start":24598.405,"end":24611.861,"text":"院長可以用這個方式,我明天會請教交通部長好,我們來談今天的我們的能源政策那請教一下部長,國部長2023年我這邊給你看了一個發購電量的結構跟成本結構目前我們的燃氣發電有12座"},{"start":24614.484,"end":24635.96,"text":"藍煤有六座,核電有三個機組,記住這個十二、六跟三。目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近四成四,藍煤的占三成四,我有注意到他們成本差不多都三毛五,三塊五,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了三千多億去買天然氣,兩千多億去買煤炭,國務長,大概是這個意思。"},{"start":24637.093,"end":24664.026,"text":"沒有錯齁但是我們看核電他目前呢我們看到的呢他大概啊三個機組呢佔我們佔比7%那大概呢要用掉200多億那我有注意到啊這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應嘛另外呢核電廠呢後續的核燃料棒這些維運嘛那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":24666.021,"end":24680.912,"text":"我們在這個後面的後市成本沒有計算對這個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣"},{"start":24681.673,"end":24701.585,"text":"好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴就光電目前這樣的發展"},{"start":24703.251,"end":24703.291,"text":"主席"},{"start":24727.49,"end":24728.311,"text":"發展新能源綠燈蟑螂"},{"start":24749.223,"end":24767.962,"text":"確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪"},{"start":24768.612,"end":24770.832,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":24793.291,"end":24822.034,"text":"院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯"},{"start":24823.985,"end":24824.025,"text":"主席"},{"start":24850.134,"end":24877.566,"text":"跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘域?現在目前整個我們餘電工生跟不利耕作區裡面使用大概只有只佔了10%還有很多的面積可以開發光電嗎?還有90%的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間?好,有人說,有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板?郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":24881.288,"end":24905.351,"text":"謝謝陳部長請回剛才委員你是說臺積電要用這個臺積的電通通用光電板發臺灣有六分之要蓋光電板有這樣需要嗎應該是沒有必要沒有必要好但是呢我現在要提醒的就是說兩個結論請院長做指示如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產請責成陳部長這點要確實的把握跟國人承諾可以嗎"},{"start":24906.292,"end":24910.316,"text":"農漁優先發電裝置越來越多,如何管理避免弊端?可不可以責成經濟部、國發會及其他單位共同研議?"},{"start":24922.355,"end":24923.496,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24944.299,"end":24971.432,"text":"除了回答這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?"},{"start":24972.259,"end":24997.336,"text":"這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電"},{"start":25000.071,"end":25000.431,"text":"河電算是綠電嗎?"},{"start":25026.849,"end":25046.287,"text":"河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電,所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件,台灣沒有不用綠電的條件,院長是不是同意?沒有放核電、核廢料的條件,台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件。"},{"start":25048.75,"end":25073.02,"text":"這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來臺灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的"},{"start":25074.449,"end":25101.839,"text":"隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎"},{"start":25103.207,"end":25124.905,"text":"新加坡他們也是多元綠能這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網絡好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢"},{"start":25125.461,"end":25148.302,"text":"那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍地設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁"},{"start":25153.362,"end":25158.755,"text":"沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究"},{"start":25160.165,"end":25188.647,"text":"河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎"},{"start":25189.127,"end":25210.672,"text":"我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收是對我們來講都還是一個比較但是路透單在做了對路透單在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長告訴我臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦"},{"start":25214.192,"end":25236.856,"text":"臺灣光電風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成綠青再去變成綠安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的綠臺灣的綠電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的綠安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入綠能的條件"},{"start":25245.444,"end":25260.73,"text":"我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多"},{"start":25261.731,"end":25277.626,"text":"好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會發表注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,"},{"start":25278.447,"end":25296.837,"text":"包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以使用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?"},{"start":25296.837,"end":25297.498,"text":"劉主委你覺得呢?"},{"start":25298.888,"end":25315.13,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力"},{"start":25315.41,"end":25315.43,"text":"臺灣用綠電"},{"start":25335.16,"end":25362.194,"text":"我也跟委員順便報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了"},{"start":25362.634,"end":25378.923,"text":"但是最重要是我們最重要最重要是什麼就是進口的設施我們往下看請問院長臺灣的港口是不是做好用船舶接收氫能的呢這個不是交通部管的這不是經濟部也不是國會發會可能有國會的部分請問你覺得臺灣做好準備沒有我們進口濾清"},{"start":25380.131,"end":25394.82,"text":"報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後時間到了我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點"},{"start":25406.218,"end":25416.626,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的諮詢（也謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢（接下來請登記第14位葉元之委員諮詢"},{"start":25437.769,"end":25442.351,"text":"韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好那個因為颱風又快來了嘛剛剛有看到您在那個氣象署後面有專訪接受訪問啊你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆嘛"},{"start":25466.739,"end":25494.088,"text":"因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假但如果現在宣示說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到"},{"start":25495.889,"end":25523.143,"text":"9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那為什麼請氣象署做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假"},{"start":25523.743,"end":25523.763,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":25544.622,"end":25545.522,"text":"小但是比較正確的資料。"},{"start":25560.487,"end":25574.909,"text":"很難完全去針對因應現在這種快速變化的因為我個人是覺得多這一報沒有什麼太大的意義不然的話乾脆11點也多一報好了就每兩個小時一報因為越接近颱風要來的時間一定越準嘛"},{"start":25575.666,"end":25591.934,"text":"因為這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高啦所以看起來比他老啦我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎"},{"start":25594.088,"end":25619.959,"text":"你認同說法際線比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法際線比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為什麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法際線高不高會不會掉法?"},{"start":25620.359,"end":25643.671,"text":"其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個大家院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊髮有關的"},{"start":25644.619,"end":25646.921,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":25673.103,"end":25692.398,"text":"我這時間比你長不是 這個你這個推論有點沒有題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告"},{"start":25693.719,"end":25716.071,"text":"我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點"},{"start":25717.412,"end":25723.881,"text":"所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是"},{"start":25725.018,"end":25749.771,"text":"這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠"},{"start":25751.272,"end":25771.882,"text":"捷二電廠的部分,105年PM10是43.3,112年它的PM10是35.8,請問一下它有減少6乘5嗎?報告委員,這個其實不能只看電廠,是要看一個區域的面積,要用環境部的所有的標準的測站來打。區域面積,那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的?"},{"start":25772.89,"end":25783.323,"text":"這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿"},{"start":25787.788,"end":25797.116,"text":"所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢"},{"start":25804.582,"end":25831.545,"text":"例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好"},{"start":25832.981,"end":25860.953,"text":"報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告,我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10,它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微錄對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。"},{"start":25861.653,"end":25888.927,"text":"我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這些東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據"},{"start":25890.542,"end":25895.566,"text":"提供給我們的資料了,到了2030年,說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%、燃氣50%、燃煤20%,沒錯吧?實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電。"},{"start":25907.645,"end":25934.201,"text":"火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電?低碳這個到底有沒有低碳?因為現在你提供給我的資料我們都是打一個大問號啦就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣我拿到資料給你拿給我資料就是不一樣嘛那再來齁"},{"start":25936.58,"end":25953.958,"text":"雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整嘛所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園啦沒有核電的時代對然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%嘛在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%"},{"start":25954.599,"end":25969.77,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":25969.87,"end":25988.84,"text":"十月多我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年五月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論"},{"start":25989.42,"end":25989.9,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":26005.465,"end":26009.926,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":26026.744,"end":26048.685,"text":"當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的"},{"start":26051.328,"end":26079.485,"text":"燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍"},{"start":26080.425,"end":26107.61,"text":"可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%"},{"start":26108.63,"end":26127.835,"text":"因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍"},{"start":26128.675,"end":26149.064,"text":"以上﹐你的再生能源才有可能達到30%那過去七、八年﹐民進黨政府已經上崇畢露下黃泉了去弄那麼多的光電廠臺南人﹐很多人都在罵以前謝鴻介開玩笑說黑面疲勞到了臺南要戴太陽眼鏡然後還造成那個溫室效應已經弄成這個樣子了漁電共生、農電共生那現在"},{"start":26153.883,"end":26173.323,"text":"發展一定會已經有瓶頸但是你又那麼有把握沒有我們完全過去八年不會造成瓶頸我們未來的五年多我們有辦法讓我們的再生能源可以成長到現在的兩倍重點答覆我信心是來自於哪裡我們拿風電來看我們已經從示範區到潛力區到現在已經到區塊發展了"},{"start":26174.904,"end":26199.591,"text":"所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係"},{"start":26201.698,"end":26223.539,"text":"那是什麼關係?沒有!我講發電量!那幾倍嘛?幾...我下去做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出...對!可是問題是我們現在...我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性!沒有線性!沒關係!那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊!"},{"start":26224.48,"end":26244.896,"text":"那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在齁在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的"},{"start":26246.076,"end":26260.684,"text":"部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就是問你因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們訂的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在直接把路徑告訴我們風力的發電2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5個Gigawatt"},{"start":26264.906,"end":26274.793,"text":"到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電勒光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電就1.5倍"},{"start":26295.227,"end":26322.105,"text":"我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛地熱不確定嘛但是我們有全力的發展我知道啦我們也都支持你們全力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊"},{"start":26322.825,"end":26352.031,"text":"所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫做能源配比啊那能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嘛這是基本的問題嘛所以我們現在跟你報告我們怎麼做啊"},{"start":26352.895,"end":26364.886,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝葉元芝委員的質詢。謝謝左院長、各部會所長的備詢。接下來,請登記第15號謝龍介委員質詢。"},{"start":26381.331,"end":26393.765,"text":"時間暫停報告委員會現在異常二樓旁聽的是柯臻委員特別推薦來臺灣文教經貿交流協會所有好朋友歡迎熱情歡迎謝龍介委員請"},{"start":26411.768,"end":26416.49,"text":"報告院長,我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢市委員,謝謝當委員長,辛苦我這裡,亞委員在跟你這陣子說到我什麼幾年我在說黑麵皮露萊要掛五年的東西是在開玩笑"},{"start":26441.551,"end":26460.458,"text":"議長這很重要地球環境候鳥是一個相當重要的指標啊是的我不在開玩笑我知道委員是用心我們維護生態我告訴你2024年黑面披露全球的普查出來了"},{"start":26462.174,"end":26484.492,"text":"每年到了3月普查就會出來大概我們農曆年過了完整的普查包括香港、越南、菲律賓包括我們台灣這20多年來的保育做得非常好從200多隻到現在的6,988隻可是今年就是到了6,988隻總數啊"},{"start":26489.161,"end":26502.164,"text":"全球的總數今年呢就去年齁多了355隻355隻那是台灣的台灣我們台灣總共少了93隻啊台灣剩下4000台灣是4135隻我們比前一年少了93隻啊那台灣少了93隻你知道台南少多少嗎"},{"start":26519.226,"end":26536.92,"text":"我告訴你 台南市少了191隻為什麼會這樣 那多的到哪裡去 濁水溪口跟屏東 他們太陽能光電沒那麼嚴重 那這個數據你就要繼續觀察"},{"start":26541.394,"end":26561.606,"text":"新加一年,在明年後年,屏東,我過去補充說,屏東在太陽能現在漸漸在漸淡的時候,我跟你講,環境就會受到影響。你國民機構啊,這五民六部在學的,環境應用,它就應用了嘛。它的密實,產生了問題。"},{"start":26563.641,"end":26591.252,"text":"其實你有了問題候鳥不來這就是我們整個能源政策是否有偏差不管那不是你的酒割定的你要去救啊你要去做一個救援的人啊救援環境救援靈魂你對歐美納杯你就可以看到要怎麼去救啊那個哭泣已經漸到少十人了我們台南啊"},{"start":26593.254,"end":26617.562,"text":"我只要說 我在這齁 人家現在民間說 台南吃不夠 台灣吃不夠 我在這說光天啦 要去飛到邊疆來賭不然對我 你說你是世間啦 我認為那不是世間 那是真心話 我最幸福的是經濟經濟部"},{"start":26619.995,"end":26634.983,"text":"都會在菲律賓的招商,想到菲律賓招商最近會這麼多,要去菲律賓請電,這不是假的,沒錯這是真的,菲律賓請電要救回台灣,會困難,最好何況是什麼,何況在美軍及菲律賓,要設一條路段要用很多電,菲律賓是欠電欠價,"},{"start":26646.533,"end":26659.739,"text":"只要這個電,上不來的台灣沒關係啦,菲律賓贏啊。 到處的人都一樣賺啊。但是政府有補助而已啊。 切記,不然我現在正式把你提出警局啊。這個事情發生,不能叫人撩到啊。 有有撩,人沒撩啊。 如果這個事情再被人撩到啊。"},{"start":26672.077,"end":26698.558,"text":"這樣就說雖然這有卡在地緣政策的概念所以你沒帶沒紙你跟AIT說出來實在說米古娃變成部落格她不是部落格米古娃是怕錢的人米古娃是怕錢的人她絕對不是部落格所以她會很生氣叫你說得清楚嘛啊你是一個生理人出來當然你不像其他政策人不像泰國生啊"},{"start":26699.52,"end":26714.667,"text":"所以你這些人在說話我比較會聽你的,別人在說話我沒什麼要聽,我先輕鬆回答你,我對你有多大的期待,漸漸,所有變成期待越來越少,慢慢,轉變成失望,我叫你變成失望了,你懂,很正當的心情喔,"},{"start":26728.663,"end":26747.131,"text":"我看到所謂叫做賴清德的主帝兵,賴總統是檢主選的,對不對?是。派一個地方的主委、檢理委員等才把你大債吃?你現在是怎樣?你是王鴻薇的天爺弄人?"},{"start":26748.479,"end":26759.367,"text":"沒有啦,委員,如果針對地方的需要,跟地方的意見,在這裡公開來講,我想我們都要很謙卑,來討論。兩黨外情?這兩黨的政策本來就不是你定的啦!你是在這裡騎卡車嘛!好來,要怎麼騎,我們不知道嘛!"},{"start":26766.721,"end":26779.549,"text":"你也很勇敢面對我主席的報告,但是你的面對問題很多,沒錯嗎?我20月21日跟你們討的資料,如果你們經濟部的伯伯說,不怪你們提供意料資料來這裡伯伯說。你跟我說李孔、李肅尼,李孔、李肅尼,我們所有聯友"},{"start":26794.637,"end":26795.077,"text":"這一點比較少啦齁。（年期）。）。）。）。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。"},{"start":26825.612,"end":26830.857,"text":"對1524億度﹐可以變成2121億度﹐對1524億度﹐每年可以變成2121億度﹐"},{"start":26849.622,"end":26863.813,"text":"您用正式公文齁我實在說我不知道我拿來這裡給你質詢我給你浪費一點意義對台灣一點幫忙也沒有啊你所有提供的營業主流營業我可以特別來聽我營業主流是要怎麼說的面對台灣連環這個問題剛才的問題不用迴避了之前都知道大家都正式來面對嘛對不對不要那麼客觀嘛"},{"start":26874.787,"end":26896.273,"text":"我看你那個,當初給你打小聲,還給你拍手,這樣意思是甚麼?喔?替總統給你修理,這樣是很不尊重你的。沒有,我尊重委員啦。沒有啦,他這樣就很不尊重你啊。沒有啦,沒有啦。那意思是甚麼?求輸輪輸,沒關係。我們對甚麼?兩年前我在選黨員請教的時候,我就說這門會讓我點手,如果我當選,我絕對不會讓我做的。"},{"start":26901.226,"end":26902.026,"text":"今天台南的鄉親"},{"start":26928.854,"end":26944.118,"text":"他也都知道說這個問題喔!他已經希望說他就來,既然你這麼餓樂意,感覺他有在地方出的情緒!有就!他就正式宣示一下!這兩個會議發展商絕對不能跟進!好不好?委員報告,我會聽事先,開始需要檢討。在投票的時候,不用寬評跟電影政府的同意。"},{"start":26958.235,"end":26966.942,"text":"但是得標的時候,要去出這個,我覺得這個世界,檢測有什麼問題?因為要去面對地方的犯罪,民間的這個,他不公寓,他實在沒辦法處理這個問題。感謝,這樣都不聽了,他剛才說的,他剛才是這兩個,這兩張紙要給他灰塗就對了。"},{"start":26979.392,"end":26991.183,"text":"這要跟帝王再去參詳,我是金國靈魂...沒有人幫你參詳啊,你...你不對,你跟帝王要參詳?你如果要參詳就等兩天喔,我起來你如果不用參詳,我一定把他加上來。你現在的意思就是,我們如果跟我一樣的路線,對金融的匯率,我等一下...因為什麼?一直安定、鮮花...喔,我..."},{"start":27002.352,"end":27005.034,"text":"都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":27031.653,"end":27053.076,"text":"因為就算開記者會可以表演、表演到大聲聲（目前這個改變是已經得標（已經可以做（但是跟電話、這個交通（發生這個（交通上的困難和沒有達成（這個事情要去努力（現在沒那麼多努力（我們就留給其他的手法（所以發展秀就繼續做（目前的程序是這樣（它得標（"},{"start":27054.111,"end":27061.461,"text":"所以他們起來表演這裡說要把它停下來,是假的?這不是表演,這是煩人地方的聲音出來。沒有,你怎麼停?所以你是補充到擬充嘛。這兩天有要把它...我還真是不瞭解。"},{"start":27072.713,"end":27082.82,"text":"報告委員,我們是沒辦法,我們要修法。法令所規定的,我們要先討。我剛才問了,我跟你們拜託,我跟你們說,你說沒有,他這麼大聲,你還配合他?我們鄉親都認真說,他去公共會這兩天要給他解僱?"},{"start":27091.533,"end":27096.84,"text":"我們現在就要說這個問題為什麼會發生,要怎麼來解決這個問題。解決這個問題是第一次我們要做的。所以對於委員在計較的這部分,我們會詳細來討論一下。"},{"start":27107.506,"end":27115.657,"text":"我想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想"},{"start":27125.458,"end":27146.588,"text":"我對你說啊你電費用電資金都不足喔!當然你會說我電錢...啊這樣來!我台南市有差不多10個水口啦齁!啊你們很多縣市吃水沒水口來,你們那些縣市有要蓋水口嗎?敢不敢蓋水口?所以這就是...我們台南市一年之內三六十萬噸的水費有夠用市民錢!"},{"start":27148.035,"end":27155.802,"text":"你都嘴口說要吃水,不去嘴口,來,你不去嘴口,我們台南市說霸帝就要把機關給一公車,你看我嘴口在這裡,你電不回應嗎?沒有啦,委員,現在的事情是這樣,我們要看台灣是一體的"},{"start":27169.445,"end":27170.766,"text":"臺北市委員會委員會長臺北市委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27183.735,"end":27193.78,"text":"所以這兩天,現在已經有回到我的電視了喔!啊你還加這兩天?啊他們為了炒算起來說我,不可以洗了不可以洗了,啊你還要給我對,議員你講這樣很對!所以鄉親今天給我問說,明天啊,人家要停起來你還不知道?我反對兩三天我不知道說人家這兩個電視要被廢除了呢!"},{"start":27205.086,"end":27229.334,"text":"所以,行政委員會報告,現在請先跟台南的鄉親說一下,太虛度了嗎?我們現在是要走這個定數嘛。走什麼定數?走虛度的定數?這不是說這是我自己的企業,如果是我自己的企業,我怎麼會這樣?你走要走虛度的定數,你要跟黨主席說,沒有人一直吞了啊!是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,"},{"start":27232.233,"end":27236.656,"text":"現在就是我還要再來了解啦,要修法。 現在是有要停下來嗎?沒有這個過程?"},{"start":27241.328,"end":27242.789,"text":"臺灣有聲音反對,現在請你這個所在。臺灣有聲音反對,現在請你這個所在"},{"start":27271.272,"end":27271.772,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27295.592,"end":27309.537,"text":"這樣就表示現在有提到這條在興建的這回落發展上,你們不想停,所以就看我們台南市政府能不能停,如果我們停就我們的事,我們找盡辦法來停,你們的立場就是不想停,是不是這樣?我們的立場暫時不能停。"},{"start":27316.257,"end":27316.617,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27349.136,"end":27350.177,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員的質詢。謝謝主委院長、部長的備詢。"},{"start":27959.178,"end":27981.884,"text":"報告委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來請廖偉祥委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢"},{"start":27992.355,"end":28013.557,"text":"廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現"},{"start":28015.357,"end":28042.065,"text":"第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我們的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年"},{"start":28044.446,"end":28070.22,"text":"我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是很好就是表現是OK的核廢料也少核安全也OK沒關係但是呢我想在現實層面的不確定性喔"},{"start":28070.62,"end":28070.66,"text":"主席"},{"start":28076.383,"end":28105.086,"text":"你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說臺灣內部對核能、安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣子叫做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常"},{"start":28106.308,"end":28128.862,"text":"高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年非核家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊"},{"start":28130.243,"end":28145.773,"text":"我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?"},{"start":28148.865,"end":28169.996,"text":"繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要除役這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格"},{"start":28171.537,"end":28185.645,"text":"可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳"},{"start":28186.653,"end":28213.36,"text":"那我想台灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來台灣設廠嗎"},{"start":28215.298,"end":28227.771,"text":"報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠"},{"start":28230.874,"end":28260.214,"text":"希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語嗎可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰"},{"start":28260.674,"end":28284.36,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":28284.616,"end":28306.084,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":28306.164,"end":28306.184,"text":"。 三"},{"start":28323.971,"end":28349.876,"text":"報告委員因為這個齁只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便用算的也不是加減程序算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔"},{"start":28351.156,"end":28371.102,"text":"賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增燃氣的電源併網每年從130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有"},{"start":28372.059,"end":28372.84,"text":"在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠"},{"start":28392.255,"end":28408.887,"text":"大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這主要這六個位他六個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含啊"},{"start":28410.489,"end":28439.065,"text":"這不是大筆一揮就有,所以包含台南剛剛我們謝榮介委員也在問的所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是只上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣然後明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想要請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少"},{"start":28442.535,"end":28445.647,"text":"一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?"},{"start":28446.816,"end":28471.39,"text":"五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分對平點頭你們很了解數字"},{"start":28472.35,"end":28497.507,"text":"所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對"},{"start":28499.639,"end":28512.851,"text":"對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的"},{"start":28513.71,"end":28516.973,"text":"對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界也說,欸?"},{"start":28516.973,"end":28532.687,"text":"那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆?好,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?"},{"start":28533.752,"end":28550.157,"text":"不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正義...我要針對這件事情你正義氣我剛剛已經算過容量的數據我們台中的部分我們會蓋這個天然氣的發電機我就是問說我們是不是正義氣要減兩枚我們蓋氣拆沒"},{"start":28552.813,"end":28574.786,"text":"在蓋棄材美嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛,可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生嗎?這是您的假設啦齁,但是我們會存留的部分它是不會運作但是是在備載"},{"start":28575.686,"end":28605.143,"text":"你確定不會運作你要確定你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你突然就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基礎這個有很多的狀況嘛所以你不敢保證對不對不然設備這個壞了啦部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦齁那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦"},{"start":28605.603,"end":28628.443,"text":"那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠"},{"start":28629.94,"end":28646.453,"text":"他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也是有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣換煤"},{"start":28647.734,"end":28668.702,"text":"好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以"},{"start":28669.202,"end":28691.576,"text":"其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分"},{"start":28692.585,"end":28718.446,"text":"所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦"},{"start":28719.906,"end":28720.966,"text":"臺電官網的資料平均購電成本111年2.33元112年3.59元到今年3.06元"},{"start":28746.258,"end":28773.428,"text":"那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎"},{"start":28775.022,"end":28788.906,"text":"不漲電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是漲不漲電價我有跟你們報告是說"},{"start":28795.067,"end":28815.743,"text":"長不長電價是沈議委員的決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價不長沒關係數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球"},{"start":28817.394,"end":28836.831,"text":"這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端幣案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎"},{"start":28838.332,"end":28859.904,"text":"這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的去告他啊,把他告他啊我來問,台岸綠能有沒有問題,有嘛,對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對,好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔,那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長"},{"start":28862.472,"end":28870.166,"text":"那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?"},{"start":28873.397,"end":28897.842,"text":"呃這個檢察官所以沒有嘛對不對所以沒有嘛對不對所以呢對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速的將他通緝請問院長這樣雙標的檢調設的調查是不是說查到哪就辦到哪啊不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有沒有這個雙標的部分無與"},{"start":28904.385,"end":28929.839,"text":"謝謝廖偉強委員質詢（謝謝卓院長（各部會首長的備詢（接下來（我們請登記第18號徐宇珍委員質詢（跟證（接下來（登記第17號賴瑞榮委員質詢（以書面提出（請行政院書面答覆（並列入紀錄刊登公報（我們再接下來請18號徐宇珍委員請質詢（"},{"start":28932.11,"end":28932.471,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長"},{"start":28944.924,"end":28964.582,"text":"薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃"},{"start":28966.363,"end":28994.925,"text":"非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務"},{"start":28995.88,"end":29014.177,"text":"那剛剛院長講到遵照環境基本法嘛就是這個這個依法來行政嘛但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例啊我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守啊因為它沒有依照預算法93條"},{"start":29015.498,"end":29026.927,"text":"在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度"},{"start":29037.09,"end":29057.961,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":29057.961,"end":29058.081,"text":"主席"},{"start":29080.811,"end":29105.999,"text":"委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。"},{"start":29106.687,"end":29110.43,"text":"蔡政府是2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%現在賴政府在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%"},{"start":29137.107,"end":29139.389,"text":"三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能"},{"start":29166.533,"end":29172.332,"text":"那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣的一個計畫?"},{"start":29173.387,"end":29197.688,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":29198.128,"end":29223.714,"text":"這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用"},{"start":29225.014,"end":29225.054,"text":"主席"},{"start":29243.69,"end":29260.974,"text":"像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%"},{"start":29263.275,"end":29263.295,"text":"兩位"},{"start":29290.506,"end":29319.217,"text":"重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展他已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認他就是綠電有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準"},{"start":29319.377,"end":29319.437,"text":"臺灣不缺"},{"start":29338.66,"end":29339.08,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":29361.716,"end":29373.419,"text":"還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出修法行政院就是依法行政"},{"start":29374.585,"end":29394.892,"text":"依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對,我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令喔。那當然,院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能,我們的這個綠電的問題喔。那我們先來看一下,我們整理了出來這個表格喔。就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度。"},{"start":29397.193,"end":29412.305,"text":"那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那你可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元"},{"start":29416.008,"end":29434.445,"text":"以我們112年度的核能來說每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補核能400億度的缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話"},{"start":29435.106,"end":29450.975,"text":"合能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電在成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後"},{"start":29451.775,"end":29451.915,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":29470.985,"end":29497.255,"text":"兩百二十六億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了三十幾趴我們的產業用電也漲了六十幾趴而且現在113年還要追加預算一千億給台電明年還要撲普一千億給台電所以如果民進黨這個的能源政策已經浪費了民眾這麼多的錢然後明年還要我們追加兩千億的話其實這部分我們真的無法支持那請院長再繼續看一下下一個"},{"start":29498.015,"end":29525.366,"text":"我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度你可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求"},{"start":29527.438,"end":29549.363,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成"},{"start":29550.043,"end":29550.783,"text":"三、行政院院長提出"},{"start":29579.273,"end":29594.988,"text":"當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電"},{"start":29605.177,"end":29605.297,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":29633.887,"end":29659.085,"text":"委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電我提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表一有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討"},{"start":29659.565,"end":29684.882,"text":"發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的"},{"start":29685.162,"end":29685.262,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":29705.058,"end":29728.76,"text":"最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI是要非常的耗電所以臺電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個"},{"start":29730.026,"end":29746.152,"text":"臺電"},{"start":29746.502,"end":29763.938,"text":"就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎"},{"start":29771.301,"end":29786.66,"text":"這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來"},{"start":29787.361,"end":29812.27,"text":"院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康"},{"start":29813.07,"end":29813.35,"text":"。（10月29日（"},{"start":29835.276,"end":29835.636,"text":"臺灣有足夠供應他們的電﹖"},{"start":29868.515,"end":29877.401,"text":"謝謝我們韓院長。有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委、經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來,"},{"start":29896.477,"end":29924.64,"text":"有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個占比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說"},{"start":29926.892,"end":29951.692,"text":"沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以呢他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想"},{"start":29954.711,"end":29963.082,"text":"就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向"},{"start":29964.725,"end":29994.005,"text":"當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們賴總統上來就我們卓內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個核三廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休"},{"start":29994.806,"end":29998.135,"text":"以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐"},{"start":29999.807,"end":30026.815,"text":"郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變"},{"start":30027.776,"end":30036.113,"text":"那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破"},{"start":30037.534,"end":30039.416,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":30064.497,"end":30092.046,"text":"政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口"},{"start":30093.496,"end":30122.243,"text":"前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個"},{"start":30123.581,"end":30149.502,"text":"政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾噸報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題"},{"start":30153.18,"end":30179.41,"text":"但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天 他三十六天三十六天俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分"},{"start":30180.285,"end":30192.349,"text":"我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。日本當然也緊張,他要36天,歐盟要30至90天,你說我們8天,我們確實也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的狀況。我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":30207.213,"end":30234.84,"text":"未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當他一定會增加安全儲量用什麼途徑就是增加他的接氣站增加他的接氣槽甚至用增加航次船次班次這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計劃當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難"},{"start":30236.98,"end":30263.833,"text":"以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊我看很多管理組就開始都打電話了你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我分林也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那"},{"start":30266.462,"end":30279.837,"text":"多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在會內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣"},{"start":30282.739,"end":30301.432,"text":"你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎"},{"start":30302.965,"end":30320.691,"text":"報告委員,因為AI的Data Center,我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣,因為台灣在AI晶片跟AI伺服器是世界第一名,所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣,在臺灣的電池,臺灣的電池,兄弟,不說客櫃,"},{"start":30327.828,"end":30348.418,"text":"等於在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%"},{"start":30353.32,"end":30353.8,"text":"我比較擔心的是"},{"start":30375.273,"end":30391.393,"text":"卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以讓人看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。"},{"start":30394.46,"end":30419.06,"text":"今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔"},{"start":30420.201,"end":30437.11,"text":"還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法"},{"start":30438.63,"end":30459.806,"text":"經濟若一直發展下去後,你搞什麼就是重啟核電。這是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法、你現行法律、卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔。但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。"},{"start":30462.082,"end":30490.635,"text":"因為你說的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理"},{"start":30491.875,"end":30521.113,"text":"我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆後年變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候"},{"start":30522.385,"end":30534.318,"text":"那確實是到最後,若不夠電的時候,講錯了,不夠電的時候,院長你變什麼?委員報告,其實早上的報告裡面,我們是推算到2033年"},{"start":30536.072,"end":30557.548,"text":"我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺陷我認為連不要說三三年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的2024執政完2028捏你若有辦法跟電容總部報告競爭是很快的捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走動態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已 可不是這樣說所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠"},{"start":30565.325,"end":30565.345,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":30585.748,"end":30586.709,"text":"我們可以算到2040年"},{"start":30598.936,"end":30601.277,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":30621.465,"end":30647.891,"text":"科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定了所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升利潤國會主委你如果你在說"},{"start":30650.942,"end":30667.49,"text":"全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、Google或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小"},{"start":30668.931,"end":30670.612,"text":"三、行政院院長提出"},{"start":30697.421,"end":30718.499,"text":"提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨"},{"start":30719.753,"end":30749.351,"text":"都要去面對國民黨的講法是跟你講說你政府我就跟你講說你重啓核電他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣砌下去之後叫做重啓他不知道一個發電廠要處理之後要重啓保證幾年?25年嗎?最快要幾年?要重啓的話差不多要3點5到5年3點5到5年真的還可以營業?真的要這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?"},{"start":30750.08,"end":30750.34,"text":"應該是這樣報告委員"},{"start":30778.243,"end":30791.795,"text":"我的建議是這樣子就是說現在的區域經濟學是開始在被討論的所以在民主聯盟的國家裡面可以互相支援特別是能源的部分所以可以看得到現在有..."},{"start":30808.091,"end":30835.789,"text":"不過這個是一個大問題我期待我剛提到的會議會議員是整個的問題我是覺得不管是國民黨也好不管是民進黨也好提出這樣的一個問題的人其實都是擔心臺灣整個經濟未來的發展他們這個講這個能源配比跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤他是在告訴你他在趕緊額落啦說你很老啦你未來很好的發展經濟啦那經濟會很好啦民進黨會繼續進展啦所以會欠電啦"},{"start":30838.28,"end":30845.443,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":30869.978,"end":30877.622,"text":"謝謝韓院長是不是來請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢議員好院長你好"},{"start":30890.558,"end":30911.641,"text":"我想因為未來可能5到10年AI產業將迅速的發展那AI產業這個整個科技創新製程要需要龐大的用電那產業界包括美國商會他們其實都十分的擔憂超過七成美國商會的成員"},{"start":30912.942,"end":30926.396,"text":"對於這個綠色能源的供應他們講實在話都有擔憂了那各界懷疑在現在能源政策下是否能夠因應整個未來的發展院長你的看法謝謝委員"},{"start":30928.069,"end":30956.294,"text":"我當然跟各位一樣我們都會關注社會上各方對我們現在能源政策所提出來的建議質疑或是任何新的方法但是我們會在當中找一個目前我們正在推動的我們認為是可以執行的方式我們極力的推這個過程當中遇到任何的困難希望大家共同來解決目前我們是在朝發展多元綠能跟深度節能跟先進的儲能以及強韌電網這方面走"},{"start":30957.594,"end":30979.901,"text":"那個院長為了因應2050年淨零排碳的目標世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員包括核電在內那國際這個原子能總署強調這個世界需要這個核電來減少整個碳的一個排放"},{"start":30981.622,"end":30992.776,"text":"此外美國和20幾個國家也共同發表核能宣言共同努力於2050年全球核能容量"},{"start":30994.281,"end":30994.962,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":31024.073,"end":31025.264,"text":"院長,您怎麼看?"},{"start":31027.455,"end":31055.873,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢但現在對台灣來講兩條路線傳統的核電我們現在在核管法的法律規定底下明年核三廠二號機必須要除役這是我們法律的規定我們現在是依法而行未來的新核能技術現在我們沒有辦法去預測到它發展的速度跟方向但是我們採取絕對開放的態度也願意學習也願意討論"},{"start":31056.977,"end":31086.13,"text":"那個院長您日前接受外媒的訪問提及台灣對採用新核能科技的態度規常的開放是的那本席就此來請教對於新核能的科技目前大部分討論是小型模組的這個模組化的這個反應爐SMR那政府花了多少預算與努力來因應來做準備呢"},{"start":31087.103,"end":31111.38,"text":"我們現在是沒有直接在這個小SMR這個工程上面核電廠上面來做比較多的研究但是我們跟世界的先進的技術都是有連結跟討論的那不只這些我們還有更未來的核融合等等我們還有現在2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現這個我們都持續的保持啦院長"},{"start":31112.481,"end":31134.743,"text":"本席我又請我助理來查詢政府研究報告找到一篇關於這個小型模組化反應爐的研究預算是60萬元那請問卓院長2025年政府對於小型模組化反應爐會投入多少的預算來研究呢"},{"start":31135.484,"end":31145.741,"text":"據我所知他所謂小型也不是真的很小型放在桌上的也不是他是好像也是一個好像大巨蛋那麼大類似啦而且他也會產生核廢料"},{"start":31147.199,"end":31168.195,"text":"也是會核廢料,所以說你們目前沒有考慮是不是?不是,我們還是在研究它的帶來會不會有新的一些發展的方向,郭部長應該更清楚。跟委員報告,SMR是這樣,SMR就是我們現在比較小隻,所以比較容易設置,但是它還是會產生核廢料。"},{"start":31168.875,"end":31175.503,"text":"三個前提是最重要的第一個就是安全第二個核廢料可以處理那第三個當然全民共識這個大家大概都差不多"},{"start":31187.677,"end":31188.257,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":31207.346,"end":31207.366,"text":"。 三"},{"start":31233.627,"end":31260.64,"text":"民進黨政府執政後推動恢復佳餘也讓核電人才培育浮現危機現階段核電與未來20年、30年的技術不同本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電研究因為新世代思維改變未來可能就需要用核電國內如果不繼續發展核電"},{"start":31263.542,"end":31285.574,"text":"何能的人才恐怕會大量的斷層你有什麼看法?這個很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法那我們日前也做過這樣的表示現在河山廠的這些有經驗的這些工程人員他們不僅要處理河後端的很多處理他們也要去接續研究"},{"start":31286.254,"end":31286.294,"text":"主席"},{"start":31307.485,"end":31327.118,"text":"讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。那過了10年時空環境有所更迭那臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏鴉戰爭的影響導致購電的成本大幅的增加那電價三年漲了4次"},{"start":31328.679,"end":31338.712,"text":"本席我是希望說經濟部重啟臺灣2050人員供需情境的模擬器把這些資訊攤在陽光下讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨民排碳"},{"start":31349.178,"end":31361.672,"text":"報告委員那個模擬器10年前我也用過但是10年前沒有把這個價格因素放進去那未來我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具那我們會來參佐但是價格還是最重要最麻煩的一個點"},{"start":31362.335,"end":31378.91,"text":"我認為應該繼續發表,讓外界了解,讓外界清楚知道發電的成本差異,各種發電的碳排放量,提供可能需面臨的風險,"},{"start":31380.191,"end":31403.416,"text":"以代價、理性思考各種人員選擇下的利弊得失以這樣的工序作為共同討論的基礎來嘗試去尋找適合的人員發展路徑我請問卓院長何時能夠重啟台灣2050年人員供需情境的模擬器"},{"start":31406.526,"end":31420.424,"text":"報告委員那個我們國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議我們行政院也在研議當中我們會有一個平台那跟那個委員提到的非常的像那我們會來研議可能要到我目前預計是要大概三個月的時間因為"},{"start":31421.305,"end":31421.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":31442.591,"end":31466.867,"text":"經濟部對外表示說深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年113到116可能可節省206億度206億度的電那今年8月行政院這個第3915次院會深度節能的推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標部長是不是是"},{"start":31470.089,"end":31484.148,"text":"那,過了兩個月經濟部預告修法,要求契約用電容量超過一萬千瓦的用電大戶,年節電力要提高到1.5%,有沒有這檔事?"},{"start":31484.148,"end":31484.288,"text":"是的"},{"start":31486.511,"end":31504.679,"text":"是齁那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整因為你既然本來1%現在調到1.5%"},{"start":31508.2,"end":31508.36,"text":"主席"},{"start":31529.122,"end":31551.737,"text":"通過深度減能,我們希望4年以後能夠增加出來大概3.5GW,這是努力的目標。所以我們會請大的公司提升自主減碳的比例,但是對電的部分節能減碳這個是我們最重要的一個目標。"},{"start":31552.077,"end":31578.414,"text":"那你們有沒有針對儲能這部分有去做各方面的研究因為很多電你沒有使用然後你沒有儲能它就消失掉了那這不是浪費嗎那你今天要是有儲能的設施對不對節能減碳我們的EXCO計畫裡面就是有儲能對啊但是目前來講經濟部到底有沒有在推"},{"start":31579.025,"end":31603.753,"text":"有,我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來,就是譬如說學校要怎麼做?公司要怎麼做?其實我有去參觀過人家的廠,而且國內有在生產,結果它是什麼?它是只要家戶也可以用,你大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機,因為講實在話,晚上你離風時間,它就把它儲能,"},{"start":31608.854,"end":31630.947,"text":"他白天就可以用因為白天是尖峰時間晚上是離峰時間其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推我們現在都在推這個這個所謂智慧化的管理那我們是從照明從空調跟動力這三個方向去整合"},{"start":31631.987,"end":31654.488,"text":"所以這個然後那個電的部分因為晚上這個離風的時候對啊電價比較便宜除能啊對啊然後這個白天這個電4點以後白天可以用那個除能器使用在白天晚上除能白天用電其實他也不會浪費掉是照理講經濟部跟這個行政院這邊應該要去"},{"start":31656.63,"end":31675.948,"text":"有這部分跟委員報告這部分我們都在進行我們現在甚至於連廠商我們都要管理哪一些廠商是我們建議的他確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西我想這個我們一步步在建議因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠我相信你們應該要多去了解"},{"start":31676.889,"end":31689.503,"text":"是對不對你去了解那確實能夠達到那個就是不要讓他浪費掉那你能夠除人然後又能夠使用而且來來調控這個才是正道"},{"start":31690.297,"end":31707.601,"text":"這部分我們都在進行中好不好 郭部長最後用一點心因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備移轉尖峰用電但最近儲能廠新建屢屢受到周邊的民眾的反對擔心儲能電廠電池過熱的故障引發火勢"},{"start":31712.282,"end":31723.147,"text":"委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":31740.296,"end":31758.492,"text":"不管它是國內製造的也好,或者是進口的這些除能設備也好,我們都會深入的去了解,到底這些磁芯,這些到底是哪邊製造的。﹖對啦,那個﹖我們不可以讓它繼續發生這個﹖對啦,那個卓院長、郭部長,"},{"start":31759.153,"end":31759.173,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":31780.215,"end":31793.042,"text":"電沒有用結果就這樣浪費掉了輸掉就浪費掉了所以在二次能源轉型過程當中深度節能跟先進儲能都是其中四項當中兩項非常重要的項目我們會全力的推動"},{"start":31802.796,"end":31827.774,"text":"報告委員會本日排定諮詢的委員均與諮詢完畢。非常謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。做以下之決定。一、將各委員會發言記錄及書面諮詢函送行政院。請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。二、以提出之書面諮詢尚未登載公報者依律補刊。"},{"start":31829.677,"end":31856.696,"text":"報院會現在我們繼續處理復議案共兩案以先後順序處理請議事人員宣讀第一案本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第5次院會邱志偉等16人擬具反滲透法第8條條文修正草案提出復議宣讀完畢現做以下決定另定其處理請宣讀第二案本院民進黨黨團針對"},{"start":31858.82,"end":31876.872,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事日程報告事項（22案（院會所作決定提出複議請公決案。 宣讀完畢現做以下之決定令定期處理報院會本次會議進行到此為止現在上會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}