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9,"end":2102.461,"text":"數數餐飲6.3千佔9.4%還有醫療保健6千人9.1%大概是前三名排行高的那麼在另外一個有意義的部分是在於所謂的什麼樣的類型的工作比較缺其實大家都以為是基層體力工缺其實不是"},{"start":2102.961,"end":2128.493,"text":"基層體系工在我們這次的調查空缺裡面大概只有5.1%的戰缺而已那麼大概7000人左右最缺的是所謂的技術技術人員就是我們大概在行業分類裡面有第二層以上的就是所謂的記憶機械設備操作及組裝人員這樣的第二層的人他就缺了大概"},{"start":2130.234,"end":2158.843,"text":"二十三趴的兩萬三千人三十四趴左右像這樣的技術人員總共在整個這個職缺裡面就佔了四萬個或是四萬個有六十趴左右的這樣的佔缺所以大概其實在我們這次的調查裡面比較有意義的呈現就是說真正的缺工其實是在中階技術人力的缺乏"},{"start":2159.523,"end":2178.152,"text":"是目前當今是最嚴重的而不是基層的體力工所以這是這一次調查比較有意義的部分那麼當然我們現在對中階技術人力的這樣子的問題一方面我們必須補足本土中階技術人力的這樣子的訓練尤其是對青年中階人力這就要靠我們產學訓合作還有包括像我這一次帶出國"},{"start":2185.996,"end":2189.779,"text":"而比賽的這種技能競賽的這樣的青年透過以賽代訓能夠學訓用合一打造跟教育部經濟部共同打造學訓用整合的平臺那麼這個是我們對國內的青年中階人才的這樣子的希望能夠進步加強來培訓以及培訓培訓跟這一個培育那麼其實是對於這一個橋外生"},{"start":2210.997,"end":2215.584,"text":"引進橋外生的中階。各位也都知道我上任以來已經開放了我們橋外生包括這一個評點制的分數以及我們把配額的打開限制都放開了"},{"start":2226.84,"end":2241.784,"text":"還有我們最近開放了旅宿業可以從事小外生可以從事旅宿業的中階工作以及我們也要進一步開放包括客運公車司機還有這個醫院護佐還有這個貨車司機跟助理員的這樣子的允許橋外生的中階技術人員來從事"},{"start":2250.146,"end":2274.315,"text":"所以大概以上是我們關於這一次的職位缺工缺統計調查報告的報告以上謝謝好謝謝何部長那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答以做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":2276.4,"end":2295.616,"text":"10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢：三會前提出與其不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2302.843,"end":2305.546,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長有請何部長昨天商總會邀請勞動部討論缺工議題不知道部長在那個會議當中有什麼心得嗎"},{"start":2321.284,"end":2321.464,"text":"我是覺得當然"},{"start":2336.02,"end":2342.123,"text":"裡面的其實我想也符合我們今天的統計調查我的意思就是說我坐在資方他們因為這個是大老闆們那資方會有一些觀點那我也希望說部長要記得要跟基層的這個員工不要開會從他們角度的一個觀點那部長"},{"start":2355.11,"end":2373.928,"text":"主計總署對全臺灣的工作職缺做了調查根據目前最新的統計左邊這個紅框框只有24萬個工作職缺那最缺的全屋民跟您剛剛的報告方向大概是一致工業部門的製造業跟營業工程業是最多的然後服務部門是批發零售業還有住宿餐飲跟醫療保健"},{"start":2380.654,"end":2401.872,"text":"勞動部本身有一個缺工調查我們都是把前五這個數字就是我們都拿前五的缺工最嚴重的部分來做個比對但是差很大部長你看這個部分是土地總署的那個數字是17萬3就是我們指的全缺工最五大行業的裡面是17萬個但是貴部的只有49700"},{"start":2406.976,"end":2426.868,"text":"委員 我就是要跟您 剛剛我的報告 其實還有部分要補足 就是 組長的統計方式跟我們不一樣 他詢問的問題 他是問說 你現在缺什麼 你現在是否有 缺人 那麼我們問的是說 你過去6個月真的都找不到人"},{"start":2427.888,"end":2447.563,"text":"就是這個兩個問題是不一樣的所以主總的問法他一定會呈現這樣都變成一國兩制因為我們都要了解缺工問題那這個數字差很大就算方法學不太一致但是這個數字差很大就是說差了三倍三四倍左右那我們都會擔心說勞動部有沒有在美化這個數字"},{"start":2450.485,"end":2465.487,"text":"所以缺工的問題可能會比我認為可能會比勞動部所想的很嚴重就用你們的方法去瞭解市委員我們其實並不是說美化數字而是說要精準掌握因為有的時候那就要跟主計總署討論一下"},{"start":2467.029,"end":2470.855,"text":"所以我們其實也是想要跟組長來會商這個調查方法的問題謝謝部長那我們看一下缺工的理由部長你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪這基本上我可以理解因為缺工原因太多了"},{"start":2482.691,"end":2509.97,"text":"但是我們必須承認第一星的行業一定缺工因為前次有這個執行事由委員詢問部長說您認為第一星的標準是什麼那你回答了一個31K嘛這個大家現在都記得了那我們來看看右邊右邊這個數字就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資除了醫療服務業它的中位數是42000是12K稍微好一些但是批發零售業薪資中位數是37351只比那個整全體的行業的那個中位數多11塊錢"},{"start":2511.511,"end":2513.193,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況"},{"start":2528.946,"end":2543.161,"text":"是啊我的意思說缺工不能等於低薪啦我反對就是說因為這個東西還有很多其他因素我了解但是低薪確實是一個一個問題因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說我們寄出高薪啦但是找不到人所以這個說法我我們"},{"start":2547.145,"end":2548.747,"text":"主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作是待遇太低"},{"start":2567.905,"end":2595.393,"text":"大概占60%的因素所以這個確實是一個符合普遍認知啦就是低薪會造成缺工對可是這個缺工的是因為廠商都不願意提高顧主不願意提高薪水所以大家就不願意去從事這是一個惡性循環所以我說對這個就是說我們這個還是要有對策啊缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高"},{"start":2596.033,"end":2616.407,"text":"然後又發國人出來工作的意願就是說你們對於缺工的這個行業有一所謂就業獎勵計畫那主要是鼓勵失業者盡量能夠到缺工的那個行業裡面去求職這個是一個最好的狀況那目前對於製造業、營建工程業住宿餐飲業甚至醫療服務業看起來都有這個獎勵可是請部長看這個數字"},{"start":2619.269,"end":2639.248,"text":"目前看起來效果有限,為什麼我們這樣講呢?尤其製造業跟醫療社會服務業,你看你越讓他急,他數字越來越嚴重,就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的,所以這個就業獎勵計畫那個效果沒有呈現,還在惡化,所以是不是只靠補助?"},{"start":2640.29,"end":2662.597,"text":"有用嗎?是不是該去調查我認為可以調查年輕人他就業他找工作的時候他在意的點是什麼?除了薪水那是不是還有生活品質休假天數啦時數啦或是職場環境等等是不是勞動部要從比較多方面的方向去著手?你看越補助就越民眾啊數字越難看啊"},{"start":2663.917,"end":2683.489,"text":"不過委員就是這個就業獎勵像莊高麟在跟婦女方面是非常有幫助欸對那麼可能青年方面的績效比較小這確實這我們來檢討好嗎好如果說有一些世俗群是有幫忙的那還是要再做檢討一種的數字看起來就是傻逼"},{"start":2684.489,"end":2701.336,"text":"沒有用啊﹖撒幣沒看到效果那像部長在反映這件事之前許部長的時候我也跟他提過這樣的事情成大醫院曾經多次發生這個壓榨護理師強迫他們加班拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位有一位迄今還在冷凍庫"},{"start":2703.283,"end":2715.011,"text":"當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單囉這個新聞好多次了我最近又收到申請成大護理師向我反映那他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候系統會顯示經費不足然後直接鎖起來連申請加班都沒辦法你覺得這樣合情合理嗎"},{"start":2725.614,"end":2738.663,"text":"我請我署長當然不合理當然不合理這是成功大學附設醫院成功大學附設醫院他已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院大概一年有17多億的營養院他們這樣對待護理師嗎"},{"start":2741.687,"end":2744.85,"text":"我要再談兩點,等一下勞動部說清楚每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候勞檢的前幾天突然這個系統又修復了又可以上去填加班費根據勞動檢查法基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的"},{"start":2760.523,"end":2774.029,"text":"但是這樣做法好像已經不止一次了所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼啊是不是說那個台南勞工局他就事先通知院方說好我們現在去勞檢了所以你所有系統都要恢復正常這樣子的做法這個"},{"start":2775.615,"end":2788.781,"text":"已經好多次了這個我們有檢查處分過 台南市勞工局檢查處分 這個處分是地方衛生市勞工局但是你們要去看處分罰錢多少錢 罰錢多少錢 署長請說你罰多少錢"},{"start":2794.267,"end":2813.613,"text":"兩萬塊啦跟委員報告齁 這個陳艾醫院確實是臺灣市政府勞工局的一個首要的對象之一因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案就是一直都有所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查 第一個你一定要守住 然後申訴案的話我們會依照 第二個你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢 我想你在這邊的年資比那個何部長還深嘛 你應該了解 罰兩萬塊像話嗎 一個一年有十多億的"},{"start":2822.975,"end":2826.056,"text":"謝謝陳昭志委員的發言謝謝部長的回應下一位我們請林月琴的委員發言"},{"start":2856.737,"end":2858.658,"text":"113年我們的缺工人數到了6.6萬人"},{"start":2874.468,"end":2898.91,"text":"那同期失業的人口也大概41萬人了那依數據來看的話這兩個數據對起來有點特別就待業人數大於需求人數一直在講缺工可是事實上需求蠻高的差了那個6.2倍所以特別是缺工最嚴重的事實上是製造業跟批發零售業那這兩個產業的特性技術背景"},{"start":2899.31,"end":2917.53,"text":"不同概念講說中間的人事實上就是比較缺可是問題是我們需求的人要工作的也蠻多的所以勞動部就業服務的做法相較於現在自己有引發人才的資源中心主動出擊的做法"},{"start":2918.371,"end":2934.535,"text":"看起來事實上比較被動的所以本席之一勞動部使用的求職手段到底有沒有接地氣你們了解各年凌晨獲得求職資訊的習慣嗎為什麼這樣問因為我從教育部的研究可以看出來"},{"start":2935.155,"end":2935.516,"text":"我請署長答覆"},{"start":2956.65,"end":2982.959,"text":"跟委員報告青年求職這個確實它有它的一個習性第一個就是說網路的求財這個資訊其實他們在運用上確實會比較偏多那很多透過人力銀行但是我們在臺灣就業通的這個服務其實有人力銀行沒有辦法做到因為我們是結合線下像職業訓練創業輔導跟一些相關的一些實體諮詢這個部分其實是我們目前在就業通以外我們有銜接外部的資源"},{"start":2983.439,"end":2988.243,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3006.796,"end":3031.537,"text":"你剛剛講說你沒有其他連結可是還是效果不彰而且求職成功率更低只有25.33所以感覺上看起來從數據來看求職者是不愛用的所以政府的這種公共就業服務資源效果不好民眾如果不愛用的話那想問這持續這樣下滑的趨勢來看的話有沒有什麼"},{"start":3032.137,"end":3049.037,"text":"平井可以突破也就是說我剛剛有提過就是說你們的銀髮人才就業服務在新北市雙河地區去主動主動找職缺的做法然後而且勞動部是不是可以主動下鄉到全國的368個鄉鎮招商徵才"},{"start":3052.08,"end":3067.237,"text":"然後要嘛就是你要握住人力找廠商要嘛就是像是握住廠商找人力再媒合起來來完成這個聘戶關係那話被動為主動我不知道勞動部部長對這個看法是"},{"start":3068.297,"end":3097.199,"text":"好當然委員這個建議非常好我想我們需要更綿密的去到基層然後直接去掌握這雙邊的這樣子的一個因為你們已經有一個成功經驗了為什麼不是去擴散然後只等著被動的一個平台讓人家上門來找這是非常好的model是把業主找出來把這些他們的需求找出來之後再去做搭配我覺得這會是比較好的"},{"start":3097.839,"end":3123.281,"text":"那缺工有沒有去想過非勞動的人力是不是你要主要的來的對象因為最根究底少子高齡化本來這樣的趨勢下缺工就是一種常態了所以整個就業服務你應該是更積極啊所以我說是不是要去盤點我們的有些閒置的勞動力那比如說就學他可能"},{"start":3123.821,"end":3123.861,"text":"獲得獎金"},{"start":3139.104,"end":3158.439,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":3158.679,"end":3179.573,"text":"沒辦法撐住我們現在的需求所以閒置人力我現在用兩個觀念來談第一個就是是不是針對於我們現在有一些移工在轉換雇主許可的移工平均一個月大概看你的數據從你們勞動部要到的是新增4500人然後轉換期間受臨時安置的大概是30人"},{"start":3183.656,"end":3212.154,"text":"那未接受政府安置的人就有僱主﹖或者是仲介代替僱主來安置﹖安置期間是不可以工作的所以那移工只要一天未能順利轉出的話你不管事實上政府還是僱主你都要花成本結果這個人空在那邊你沒有善加運用這些勞動力所以想問一下部長說當下有多少的移工正等待新僱主的承接有多少因為我們現在得到的數據只有9月份我請署長回答"},{"start":3214.871,"end":3243.17,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實現在對待轉換的移工大概目前我們的安置中心每年大概我們的安置人數大概將近都大概兩三千人所以這兩三千人是不是一個很好的你讓他盡快的可是有沒有那再問等待的時間有多久安置的時間有多久跟委員報告因為大部分的案件因為比較單純就只是勞資爭議一旦勞資爭議地方政府確認之後聘用關係終止我們就馬上協助轉換"},{"start":3245.672,"end":3263.351,"text":"這個馬上的時間還有有沒有等待一年或半年跟委員保一般半年一年是屬於刑事案件有時候是人身傷害一些相關的一些刑事的訴訟因為必須要等到司法警察機關的一些確認這個會稍微久一點不過這個我們也會跟司法機關來充分的合作"},{"start":3263.931,"end":3282.398,"text":"可是這就是成本齁所以我覺得社會成本因為這個案子你們是要付費的嘛齁就是要付好那所以勞動部不應該因為這個牽涉到修法就是說你那個提前解約的你要讓他轉轉僱主轉業就是轉換行業我現在不允許"},{"start":3283.158,"end":3300.551,"text":"所以我們真的要去考慮一下否則的話又一直在講缺工可是我們就看到有些人力事實上是代用的狀態裡面而且你要付出成本因為這些安置期間你們是要付費的所以製造業跟社福業都在缺工所以這種"},{"start":3301.892,"end":3315.87,"text":"移工全域的產業不在少數所以這群接受等待安置的那都是你可能可以考慮的一些對象所以可不可以優先境內承接再境外招募利用境內的這集戰力來紓解"},{"start":3317.792,"end":3319.453,"text":"請勞動部一個月提出說明"},{"start":3347.632,"end":3370.429,"text":"不好意思再讓我一點時間現在目前我們的身心障礙者大概也是一個所謂的就業服務的孤兒為什麼這樣講我們大概15歲以上的身心障礙工作大概是25.4萬人比例大概21%其中接受政府就業推薦成功的大概28000人那佔25萬就業的大概只有12%所以"},{"start":3377.946,"end":3405.767,"text":"想問一下部長這邊因為經過職業推介的這28000人9月大多數還是去公務體系去工作是嗎因為我現在收到數據是這樣結果你們自己處理轉介反而結果進入到的還是比較以公務家體系為優先那而且這個只有占到12%還有很多事實上也在開發的人力"},{"start":3407.813,"end":3432.963,"text":"好 這個也請署長回答一下委員跟委員報告我們現在身心障礙我們大概依照他的情況大概有三種服務模式一般有PU性就業資金又跟一般性的就業大部分因為委員可能公報公部門確實有部分但其實到私部門其實還是很多因為很多私部門他必須要符合定額禁用所以他會尋求我們的協助推介這部分也在努力"},{"start":3433.223,"end":3460.854,"text":"可是你現在25萬的原來25萬的工作的一個身心障礙者看起來還是靠自己去找工作還是一樣就回來你們的這樣的就業服務事實上缺工可是你有沒有辦法幫雇主那需求我有要工作需求可是你也是沒辦法滿足我所以我們的身心障礙者工作促進政策已經推動幾十年了如果只有這樣成效真的是蠻弱的"},{"start":3461.734,"end":3486.456,"text":"所以最後就是希望你們盤點我們的閒置的勞動人力主動下鄉,剛剛部長已經有承諾就是說你可以發掘那個職缺用你們的在中永和辦的那樣子的一個方式我們的銀髮人才的資源中心這樣做法來促進雙方媒合,還有把我們的閒置人力能夠都帶回來充分就業,再麻煩部長"},{"start":3488.636,"end":3489.957,"text":"昨天其實我們觀光署對"},{"start":3515.933,"end":3531.113,"text":"好昨天我們觀光署有講到說他們本來啊今年希望可以達到1000萬的人次因為在疫情前我們是有到1200萬但希望今年可以衝到1000萬結果到昨天他們很悲觀的認為"},{"start":3532.655,"end":3554.787,"text":"達到750萬下修了他們的目標啊那這個是賴總統在競選的時候曾經講到的他希望部部有觀光他希望部部有觀光各地有觀光來發展觀光的主流化來搶救我國的觀光產業這個也是部長剛剛口頭報告的時候有講到我們很需要中階的人才"},{"start":3556.148,"end":3572.346,"text":"呃旅宿其中之一所以我也想請問您部部有觀光勞動部這邊可以做什麼呢因為這個昨天是一個蠻大的新聞所有相關產業的人都很關注當然旅宿觀光業喔"},{"start":3575.168,"end":3589.295,"text":"確實一直以來他們都在訴求這個問題昨天我在跟服務業的座談裡面旅宿觀光業他們也再度提出可是跟委員報告我們在這部分已經初步先開放橋外生中階人力"},{"start":3590.075,"end":3594.819,"text":"可以從事旅宿的房屋上禮拜你說司機也是在研擬橋外生其實還沒開始已經開放了已經有多少你們現在覺得可以有多少的進展關於司機還有旅宿業都想要一定知道其實政策才剛開始"},{"start":3612.074,"end":3633.053,"text":"就是還沒有統計的數據還沒有真正就是才剛通過有人來申請了嗎應該才剛通過而已禮數我們是8月開放那8月開放因為他關公署有一些相關的細節規定資格所以現在目前還在一個規劃期那已經開放那目前還在"},{"start":3634.274,"end":3655.611,"text":"一些宣導的過程目前還沒有來提出申請那至於剛剛委員提到我們其他開放的司機員還有一些客運貨運等等這個目前已經確定會開放那我們現在正在跟部會確認一些法制作業當中但是還沒開始申請司機這邊還沒開始不過你們已經確定開放了那除了這個旅宿業以外您覺得勞動部還可以在觀光產業上貢獻哪些事嗎"},{"start":3662.567,"end":3683.267,"text":"我們要先幫他解決這個勞動力匱乏的問題我們也鼓勵業者在中高齡跟婦女這方面應該要多多來利用包括我們的義後缺工改善方案其實就是為了觀光業合作的可是他們在媒合人力上那你的這個高齡跟婦女有什麼"},{"start":3684.528,"end":3690.21,"text":"獎勵的措施可以讓他們：他們除了我們原有的這種55plus婦女在就業獎勵以外觀光署也有給他們補助在這方面所以是兩個部會合起來補助他們對可是目前就用人力上擦牆人意這個方案所以這也牽涉到"},{"start":3706.036,"end":3721.733,"text":"這一個有沒有這一個期待跟就是說這個這個落差的問題啦對我們能提供的人力跟他能要使用的這樣的人力落差的問題這也是我們進一步要跟呂樹葉我們可以來跟他來再度來更精進來討論對"},{"start":3724.075,"end":3753.315,"text":"再來我想請教部長的是這是去年行政院八月通過的優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度他是一個一年期的專案這專案其實花蠻多錢的有五億多那您當時有三個項目覺得很重要所以把它列為專案的計劃第一個是流用中階技術人力要變多這剛剛您已經講了第二是針對失蹤不明比例過高的引進移工來台國外仲介公司辦理暫停"},{"start":3753.815,"end":3772.899,"text":"那第三呢是要服務顧主以及家事移工並提供入境移工的指引好但是我們到今年現在已經快要11月了吧我們你已經花掉了5億2997萬其中的2億3009萬所以其實你現在還剩下一半多的經費喔超過50%總共是56%的經費那你要我想知道你再來要怎麼做你是要兩個月大傻逼嗎"},{"start":3783.701,"end":3806.5,"text":"還是怎麼做?這個我可以請署長來回應一下跟委員報告,因為這個預算大部分是提供各部位在執行這個移工的評估管理的一些做法那因為他們有一些經費的核銷上的一個期程上每年大概都是這樣那年底前他們會大概整個核銷的進度都會完成執行率大概都可以提高到我們的相關的預算"},{"start":3807.389,"end":3815.708,"text":"所以你的意思是說其實他們只是因為核銷的進度比較慢所以你到12月其實你這個一年期的計畫就會結束了"},{"start":3818.355,"end":3837.846,"text":"對嗎這個我們這個其實是每年的例行在辦理的一些相關的工作可以那我們來看一下你的這個執行率吼第一個我覺得中階技術人力累積許可人數OK因為有達到你的KPI我記得你們本來是設定兩萬五嗎對那比較匪夷所思的地方就是"},{"start":3838.846,"end":3851.937,"text":"你針對逃逸比較多的仲介公司確保外國仲介品質是0%你一家都沒有一家都沒有抓到一家都沒有發現這樣是為什麼委員那個他有三家有三家被停權目前有三家被停權你講一下"},{"start":3860.459,"end":3873.179,"text":"委員報告這個規定我們實施之後我們就落實現在越南因為他因為失聯的問題我們大概有應該有3家已經被我們停選掉你的報告你要更新一下嗎是這個我們再更新"},{"start":3874.008,"end":3898.424,"text":"那我跟你補充一下數據齁我們去年的8月失聯移工是84,339人去年等於100位移工就有11.3位是失聯最新呢113年9月是88,881人所以我們一年多了快5000人逃逸的移工4500那你現在做了這個一年期的專案啊花了5億"},{"start":3900.151,"end":3927.609,"text":"花了5億你覺得你抓到3家外國仲介公司這個有符合你原本幫自己設定的KPI嗎?委員這一個部分應該主要是查緝的工作查緝收容事實上我們今年還要花9千萬吧給移民署讓他去收容擴大收容這一個逃逸移工數這個部分我們"},{"start":3928.951,"end":3943.805,"text":"對可是剛剛才你目標應該是希望他不要逃逸啊而不是做大收容委員其實我們現在比起疫情期間失聯率已經下降了現在才2%嘛對那之前疫情期間都是3到4%"},{"start":3945.206,"end":3967.607,"text":"之後我也希望可以看到你們這個一年期的專案的結案報告因為如果說你抓到了這三家結果他們逃逸的數目遠遠跟我們這一年的差距其實是很大的那就不太合理啊是吧不然我也想問你們是怎麼去追查到這三家的你們不是應該是救人數嗎"},{"start":3969.571,"end":3993.858,"text":"你們不是應該是定多少人數以上的國外仲介公司所以你們才會去找嗎對他是用人數來看的那你講的出來這三家你覺得他們佔了多少比例嗎我跟委員報告因為我們現在是每三個月就會去集合所有這個國外仲介那就是依照他的引進人數跟失聯人數有一個比例只要達到這樣的一個警戒值我們就予以停權這個比例是"},{"start":3995.419,"end":4022.147,"text":"那個比例大概我們是有一個估算是不是會後我們再提供給委員就有設定一個比例法令上明定謝謝之後我也很期待看到你們這個一年期專案的結案報告因為你們有三次查核還有最後一次還沒做對我還有兩分鐘好下一個因為這是上禮拜很多委員會在討論的大家在討論是不是應該要新增一些國定假日可以幫我播一下影片"},{"start":4026.435,"end":4033.896,"text":"這是吳斯亞委員的說法我也想知道我們勞動部部長的看法如何因為當然之前這才對嘛"},{"start":4057.817,"end":4079.289,"text":"我想問部長因為我知道您以前是勞工運動出身的但是後來您也在勞基法的修法的時候有一個特別的角色啦所以我想知道說因為現在這個很多人關注這個新聞我們是不是應該要增加我們的國定假日不管是幾天一天兩天三天或是七天不知道您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":4081.215,"end":4108.475,"text":"委員我想勞動部的立場在當時勞基法一例一休修法之後我們增加的休假日週休二日我們落實週休二日增加的這個休假日大概就是全年的總休假日是116天那麼當時為什麼會拿掉那7天國定假日是因為要一致化的問題"},{"start":4109.616,"end":4109.956,"text":"對但是我們可以再更進步了嗎現在又過了好幾年"},{"start":4134.096,"end":4159.656,"text":"所以這個之後本席還會在花時間跟您詳細的討論一下不過現在國際的趨勢這個國定假日加上特休日我們都是比別的亞洲國家差的不管是韓國或是日本或是新加坡新加坡的國定假日跟我們是一樣11 12天可是他們做滿三個月六個月他的特休日是比我們多很多的"},{"start":4160.296,"end":4179.056,"text":"那現在臺灣的工時也是OECD國家裡面第4高全世界第4高亞洲第二高那這個是一個趨勢所以我也想知道部長對於這樣子的趨勢的看法還是你覺得我們從勞基法修法至今可以不需要做調整"},{"start":4180.157,"end":4201.858,"text":"我想當時201616年的一例一休的修法那到今天目前為止我當時其實特休也都是增加的委員當時對出入職場的勞工甚至那特休六個月以上就增加到三天這也在全世界也是排名前面的這裡這裡對"},{"start":4206,"end":4222.328,"text":"我跟您報告一下這個是我們跟其他國家特休的比較在我們這邊人力銀行統計起來臺灣的勞工平均12到15個月就要換工作可是我們要工作滿一年才可以有7天"},{"start":4223.982,"end":4243.039,"text":"新加坡跟我們一樣老公只要工作3個月第一年就會有7天可是我們要工作到半年以上才可以日本的話只要出席總日數達到8成以上就可以10天的特休所以我不知道部長口中我們比較進步是跟哪一些國家來比這個我也想知道"},{"start":4244.588,"end":4260.506,"text":"嗯我在想我們出入職場的6個月以上每年就有3天的特休這個部分啦是跟其他國家比比較好當然相對也是算是前面的啦前段班好沒關係謝謝主席我們之後再來討論謝謝好謝謝曾經為委員發言那接下來請盧憲一委員發言"},{"start":4272.403,"end":4283.228,"text":"主席有請部長。呃,何部長。委員好。部長早。之前我有問過你一個問題,也就是說就針對112年民族就業的狀況調查,你有沒有跟我們委員會去討論?"},{"start":4292.297,"end":4312.258,"text":"我希望知道說你們是每個月有討論還是一季有一次還是半年有一次我想知道你們的頻率我們之間有平台對口不定期都有那就針對我們的結論我們上次講到我們原住民在25到54歲原住民族的勞參率比全體民眾低"},{"start":4314.44,"end":4329.425,"text":"第2個也就是我們的從事的工作有營建工程業製造業及住宿及餐飲業然後再看到我們的非典型工作高於非原住民地區那就針對這個問題我想問一下就是說現在職業再設計我們勞動部有補助10萬元"},{"start":4337.546,"end":4366.741,"text":"那就針對我們原住民族比較多的營建工程業、製造業及住宿產業有沒有相對應的有做這方面的設計?有我請署長來跟你解釋可以舉例嗎?其實原住民在目前植物袋的使用其實是跟我們一般都完全一樣因為我們目前植物袋就是基於他一些工作一些職能需要做一些改善所以大概主要就是在中高齡跟這個身心障礙者所以原住民如果符合這種情況之下其實是一體可以使用"},{"start":4367.321,"end":4381.077,"text":"可以嗎?可以適用那第二個就是說我們初次循職的青年他有個最高補助45000元那我想請問一下如果說我們原住民25我們要改善這個25到54歲比較低於全體國民的話你們這方面有沒有一個設計"},{"start":4386.403,"end":4398.199,"text":"看是不是也可以沿用這方面的一個經驗因為你這個只有到15到29歲可是我們原住民是29到54歲比較低你可以做這方面的一個修正或者說計劃嗎"},{"start":4401.07,"end":4401.991,"text":"好,我請署長回答好嗎?"},{"start":4426.661,"end":4443.729,"text":"那我想請問就是現在有一個就業服務法第12條主管機關的試業務需要如果說有些縣市他的人口打到2萬人以上可以設置公立就業服務機構那我想知道你們目前的設置的情形我也請署長回答"},{"start":4445.339,"end":4446.36,"text":"目前已經有6個縣市包含這一個"},{"start":4467.182,"end":4472.527,"text":"臺北、新北、還有桃園、台中、高雄、屏東6個縣市已經設了原住民專屬的社會福利據點。"},{"start":4482.978,"end":4501.024,"text":"跟我們主要就是請我們原住民的就業部員因為他有他的一個專屬性所以我們是請地方的優先是以原住民來提供這樣的服務那人力的補助大概依照我們目前的這個人力的大概就是業務輔導員大概3萬每個月都要3萬7左右以上"},{"start":4501.664,"end":4518.537,"text":"那我想請問哈就現在已經在錄用的就是同意這邊有寫同意補助3名業務督導員25名業務輔導員我想知道他怎麼禁用的是用考試還是用什麼基本上這個是由地方政府他們有一些人員的禁用的程序那目前大部分都是禁用原住民身份"},{"start":4518.928,"end":4543.865,"text":"我知道,可是我想知道他的經驗方式因為上次我們研究民主委員會被質疑他們的族群委員全部都是他們民進黨的黨工不然就是民進黨的公職人員沒有選上的然後變成族群委員我想知道這個現在這個業務督導員跟25名的輔導員他的經驗方式到最後一查又是他們競選的他們對他們有功勞的人"},{"start":4544.545,"end":4549.518,"text":"那我想說是不是有一個考試的平台還是經營的方式?你們可以有一個規範嗎?"},{"start":4553.571,"end":4578.499,"text":"我們會提醒地方政府因為地方政府用人的程序他有個人員的甄選希望是專業優先而不是用類似像另外的一種酬庸的方式你放心我們都是讓地方政府公平公正公開去處理的其實現在地方政府多數都是在野黨執政不是因為我在屏東 屏東是民進黨執政"},{"start":4579.719,"end":4601.277,"text":"你知道我們的趙服務員有些工作還是去幫收紅白包的而且是在那邊收禮台的他都是在做服務民進黨的事情好不好好謝謝好就針對移工來說我們希望因為我們常常跟移工的工作是性質是接近的所以我想說是不是有一個平台可以跟原民會溝通"},{"start":4603.179,"end":4621.137,"text":"跟人民會溝通移工嗎當然其實委員其實我們在開放移工的時候我們也會邀請人民會來跟我們跨國力勞動力政策諮詢小組一起討論的我的意思就是說我們的工作可能也會被移工搶走所以這個部分在原來上面"},{"start":4624.841,"end":4638.871,"text":"福利方面的移工一直我們都很謹慎就是這個因素我們有考慮原住民的這邊就業的問題是我想還有一個是我想知道是針對老化的這個過程裡面有沒有什麼一些新的想法"},{"start":4641.364,"end":4666.894,"text":"現在中高齡就業是我們主推的項目那麼我們也預計希望在每年增加10萬的中高齡勞動力人口這個是我們現在的工作目標我昨天看一些新聞有看到我們現在連炸雞丁都找不到人已經月薪到6萬之前都講說缺工是在傳統產業現在連服務業也缺工那你有沒有什麼對策"},{"start":4667.97,"end":4697.154,"text":"市委員我今天的報告就是也跟您就是希望跟委員會報告就是說事實上現在所謂的缺工是缺什麼樣的工我們要弄清楚那我們這次做的缺工統計呈現的就是說所謂服務業的缺工也是中階技術人力比較缺啦那中階技術人力他是要有一定技術能力的他也不是那種基層體力工缺所以在這方面我們會加強禁用中階技術的人才包括對本國"},{"start":4697.984,"end":4719.418,"text":"以及我們針對這個像橋外生這樣的中間技術的問題我先問一下就是關於廢棄物的處理的工作有沒有禁用移工的一個可能性有我們已經通過了9月的時候開放新增處理業等三個資源回收行業這樣的移工"},{"start":4719.918,"end":4722.179,"text":"謝謝盧憲一委員發言接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":4752.981,"end":4754.201,"text":"臺灣缺工問題嚴不嚴重?臺灣現在缺工的人數是多少?"},{"start":4778.14,"end":4793.554,"text":"在我的今年7月底就是今天發布給這個委員會的報告裡面我們現在的真正空缺6個月找不到人就是6.6萬人那我提供你另外一個數據就是我們現在開缺出來的數據臺灣缺工是超過24萬人這個也是統計報告這是主總的統計對"},{"start":4800.8,"end":4813.376,"text":"那你們的數據跟主計總署的數據落差非常的大 這個高達三倍之多 那我請問你如果媒體今天要報導說臺灣的缺工人數是多少 是24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":4816.74,"end":4824.929,"text":"我必須澄清主總的詢問方式跟我們是不一樣的那我就問你嘛這個可能媒體會困擾啊如果今天媒體要下一個標說臺灣的缺工人數請問這個數字是要填24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":4833.703,"end":4854.225,"text":"如果根據我勞動部的統計我會我會認為應該是6.6萬這比較精確我是指過去6個月真的那你要去跟主席總部說你的數據是錯了麻煩你依照我勞動部的6.6萬我們也要跟主總溝通這件事就是我們其實已經在跟他溝通就是因為他詢問的是職缺數"},{"start":4855.026,"end":4855.587,"text":"但是部長你知道嗎?從去年112年這個主計數的統計是23萬的缺工數"},{"start":4873.104,"end":4889.689,"text":"到現在第二季是超過24萬的缺工數這個趨勢根本就沒有改變如果按照部長剛剛的說法應該是會大幅的改善才對但是如果他有補足人不可能他現在開出來的缺工數還是達到24萬"},{"start":4891.65,"end":4914.972,"text":"我覺得這個是一個最根本的就是說政府的統計數據不能有兩個數字讓民眾搞不清楚那另外一個我要強調的是誠實的面對問題才能解決問題我可不可以就是再補充一下就是為什麼我會做這個調查這也是勞動部第一次自己做缺工統計調查因為我是避免誤判"},{"start":4916.073,"end":4917.953,"text":"所以你說全台灣真正找不到人的缺工的數據只有6.6萬"},{"start":4946.258,"end":4963.074,"text":"現在目前目前是6.6萬然後你是每一家企業去調查我們調查4000家企業那能代表全部嗎那當然它是有一個樣本數的限制啦那這樣子你這個6.6萬的代表性是什麼"},{"start":4964.599,"end":4965.299,"text":"是,我們是針對所有的行業,抽樣的"},{"start":4988.033,"end":4997.06,"text":"那你這個抽樣可以代表整個的群體嗎?可以推估嗎?是可以推估母體的所以你這個數據那如果按照你這個數據其實我們缺工沒有那麼嚴重啊?"},{"start":5001.804,"end":5025.62,"text":"事實上24萬跟6.6萬6.6萬也不少啦6.6萬也不少只是24萬是一個就是說它是比較定義不精確的數字這樣我會很難做決策好本席要求這個勞動部你們要做出一個檢討你們跟主席總署就是全台灣只需要一個真相跟一個數據我們不需要兩個數據到底台灣的缺工是24萬還是是你講的6.6萬你們兩個單位"},{"start":5029.443,"end":5047.244,"text":"可不可以在這個一個月之內把你們的統計數據就頂掉未來發布的臺灣的缺工數據不應該是勞動部講勞動部的主計處講主計處這樣可以嗎一個月之內你們整合出一個版本好不好另外一個我要檢視你們的專案的成效"},{"start":5047.805,"end":5074.584,"text":"就是你有一個役後改善缺工擴大就業方案你們從112年5月一直到今年的6月30日為止然後你們的事辦要投入10億促進2萬名的這個勞工就業但是這個你們提供的資料你們自己真正的合發人數才1078人如果占2萬人的裡面你的達成率大概是6%"},{"start":5075.845,"end":5104.992,"text":"就是這個部分成效其實很不好那這個部長可以告訴大家為什麼嗎你明明編了實役也要想要給大家要去改善這個役後的缺工的情況但是改善下來的結果特別是針對旅宿餐飲業那為什麼改善下來的成效這麼差是委員這個其實就是針對旅宿餐飲是他們現在缺工還是很嚴重啊你明明有方案啊那為什麼就是沒有辦法銜接上"},{"start":5107.221,"end":5116.721,"text":"對,因為這個你們檢討的結果是什麼?到底問題出在哪?我想業者的期待他們都希望更便宜"},{"start":5118.294,"end":5146.588,"text":"對可是對國人的就業期待都希望薪資要合理這個就是兩個之間永恆的拔河跟落差所以他們達不到你們的獎勵標準或是你的誘因不足他也不想來沒有我誘因足可是他不想開那個價錢請人啊他一直希望更便宜這就是為什麼那你們要怎麼檢討跟改善這就是我也要跟您報告我們有這個方案也沒有用業者還希望我開移工因為移工比這個更便宜"},{"start":5147.814,"end":5168.21,"text":"這就是我當今的困境可是我們能這麼做嗎是所以你的改善方案是什麼在中高齡跟婦女就業這是大宗我們在有1.4萬的中高齡跟婦女在這裡面在旅宿業裡對本期要了解的是你針對這個執行的成效不彰只有6%那請問勞動部你後續的因應"},{"start":5171.232,"end":5181.601,"text":"跟調整跟你的改善你的檢討到底是什麼我要來跟觀光署我們來跟交通部一起來會商我要求也是一個月這個要交你們的檢討報告還有一樣也是成效很差齁這個營建業產業缺工專案的成效喔這個你們推動這樣的一個專案結果有七成三根本不知道這個專案"},{"start":5195.232,"end":5197.074,"text":"8成根本沒有參與過這個的徵採活動你實際的核發數從110年到112年總共只有152人而且聽說已經停辦"},{"start":5208.287,"end":5231.956,"text":"委員這個什麼時候就結束了這個方案結束了就是成效不佳嘛結束了是是是阿所以去年112年我們開了12000的營建業移工所以你就是用移工來替代了就是說本國的部分沒有辦法了所以你就不要再推動了嘛對不對就是就是用移工替代了是好那"},{"start":5232.951,"end":5237.793,"text":"今天這個招委牌這樣的一個專案我想我們要討論的就是這些缺工的問題到底應該要怎麼改善那本期就要求剛剛我講的你疫後的這一個編了10億要找2萬人結果只有6%1000多人"},{"start":5249.799,"end":5268.473,"text":"這個專案他成效不佳那未來你的檢討跟因應跟調整會是什麼因為今天開這個專案我想主要就是針對缺工的問題要有所改善嘛那如果部長其實不同意再開放移工的話那就要轉向是如何去改善這個職場環境然後勞動部怎麼樣去調整你的獎勵措施然後從本"},{"start":5274.638,"end":5275.359,"text":"謝謝王育民委員接下來請邱振軍委員發言"},{"start":5308.503,"end":5310.051,"text":"主席好,我們一樣也請何部長請何部長"},{"start":5314.563,"end":5339.873,"text":"部長好,我想根據這個月的勞動統計的通報,截至7月,我們全國事業單位缺工數有6萬6千個,是這樣嗎?是,這是我部內的統計。我看了一次就是說,看了一下就是說,這第一次採用懸缺半年才列為缺工。對,這是我的利益。跟以往不太一樣。對對對。為什麼要這樣子?"},{"start":5341.987,"end":5362.603,"text":"是比較好看還是怎麼樣?是為了精確掌握缺工的真正的樣態也就是說他一個月沒有工作兩個月沒工作不代表失業了?這不是失業這是針對廠商全缺六個月的調查是針對廠商的調查那一兩三個月也不算啊?"},{"start":5363.727,"end":5383.592,"text":"對那不叫缺工所以現在是改變缺工的定義就對了以前不是這樣記嗎就是缺工就是在一般的過去像組總的調查他是調查說你當下缺不缺啦你今天缺不缺那可是事實上你可能馬上就可以補進來那是一個流動性的那如果兩三個月來為什麼要定在六個月"},{"start":5386.293,"end":5396.477,"text":"所以以後我個人是這樣覺得就不論是一個月還是六個月其實對我們業者來講他還是缺工還是缺工吧實際的數字希望大家還是要誠實一點好不好"},{"start":5402.49,"end":5416.616,"text":"委員我絕對誠實那我再問你明年最低的工資條幅已經訂了嘛就是最低工資月薪為28590元時薪漲至190元那不過但外界還認為說這沒有辦法解決缺工的問題反而會助長這個長缺工那部長知不知道這為什麼"},{"start":5429.703,"end":5446.809,"text":"這個其實我在最低工資調整的時候我有一再強調這是保障邊際勞工而不是解決缺工委員今天我的缺工調查你看一下這個表就是說我有計算過就是說同樣都是要勞建都有勞建勞保嘛"},{"start":5447.549,"end":5457.166,"text":"那領時薪者多兼幾份差每個月工作22天他每天工作8個小時他其實就可以領到33,440元"},{"start":5460.449,"end":5483.809,"text":"還有8天可以運用對照全時職位的月薪只有28,590元換算回來每個小時只有119元元少於時薪部長我想請問一下制定這樣的時薪計算是不是鼓勵大家都要去做時薪工作而不要做月薪"},{"start":5484.249,"end":5499.922,"text":"啊委員就是確實我們這次最低工資審議的時候也有委員在認為說時薪的那個條幅你這樣反而讓這個業者都找不到功能對那是因為有過去歷史的因素我們在過去很過去10年間啊你不要講說過去那你現在發現有問題是不是就要改"},{"start":5503.725,"end":5529.461,"text":"有,這裡是最低工資條幅已經都把它拉齊了有拉齊了,但算起來還是差很多啊甚至還比較低,我們的月薪條幅是4.8如果是你,你要領哪一種?我當然是領10薪啊對不對,我時間調配比較好調配嘛對不對這就是現在年輕人的心態難怪我們現在年輕人失業他那個數字都一直起不來啊而且你沒有辦法去解決真正的問題嘛"},{"start":5532.233,"end":5548.862,"text":"那我在請問部長你有沒有出去外面訂過這個去外面吃飯訂餐去別的餐廳吃飯當然是有吃有沒有看到餐廳裡面有時候明明就像現在座位很多但他就跟你說他沒辦法接就是為什麼你會這樣你知道嗎"},{"start":5551.708,"end":5575.865,"text":"就因為人力不足嘛 對不對請時薪然後後來就變成什麼我們常常看到現在餐廳現在都是機器人在跑對不對送餐的那為什麼這是業者他自己會轉變就是說你今天要減少失業率你這些問題都沒解決的時候那業者自然會想出他一個生存的辦法對不對但是這個時間久了"},{"start":5577.826,"end":5598.591,"text":"時間久了就會造成我們這個失業率居高不下因為到時候都是請機器人啊比較划得來嘛我請時薪的划不來對不對這真的所以我說這個缺工啊不是當然不等於是因為低薪的問題要對症下藥啦好不好對這個缺工的問題才有幫助"},{"start":5601.932,"end":5622.299,"text":"就是我一直覺得缺工也不能只靠移工來解決,像自動化也是一個很重要的因為有很多啦,就是說我們可能說製造業是改善環境嘛,增加我們移工數,其他服務業缺工也一樣那健保及社會工作也很缺人啦,那針對這個部分部長有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":5623.174,"end":5644.286,"text":"市委員我們其實也是針對就是我在講的你剛才講到就是各行各業裡面像醫療保健我們現在就開了醫院互助讓橋外省中階技術人力也可以來從事就是這些我看到昨天商總有提個三項建議就是提引進移工擴大引進橋外生產"},{"start":5645.547,"end":5657.639,"text":"產學合作以及變形工時等方式來改善缺工那我想他要求我們呼籲說我們年底前給答案那部長什麼時候會有結論"},{"start":5659.284,"end":5683.883,"text":"委員其實他昨天這一些訴求我們部分都已經在處理而且事宜都已經在處理了像包括僑外生我們已經開放您也了解那麼我們甚至要進一步修僑外生的個人工作許可讓僑外生可以自由掌控服務業這個部分他還要培訓準備所以我希望說業者也希望我們這邊盡快給答案"},{"start":5684.503,"end":5703.343,"text":"您是指服務業移工嗎?服務業缺工的問題也是有不同層次我今天的報告的重點就是其實連服務業裡面缺的都是中階技術人力比較缺勞資雙方希望全國來開這個缺工的會議那部長什麼時候會開?"},{"start":5704.731,"end":5727.151,"text":"全國聚會會議不是我能開的那必須我如果有需要的話你相信政院報告了沒有這因為我們這個要看政院這邊的那你反映了沒有還是要先看日子要看黃曆看哪一天日子比較好這個對我想政院會有他全盤的考慮是"},{"start":5728.274,"end":5743.01,"text":"不是,這個有什麼全盤考慮的,這個本來就是缺工就是事實啊,要考慮什麼?該開的會該盡快解決的不是就馬上就要處理嗎?委員我們昨天是先請取我們服務業部門的這樣的朋友的意見啦,是,對。"},{"start":5746.813,"end":5768.145,"text":"臺灣未來9年會有378萬人要退休45個月出生率低於死亡率這種生不如死的狀況我發現15到20歲的青年失業率一直在創新高20歲到34歲的失業率也一直上升這個年齡層又是最有機會結婚生子的年齡"},{"start":5769.105,"end":5795.867,"text":"現在年輕人有錢都不太願意生小孩了。沒有工作更不用說。所以針對這個部分,勞動部這邊有沒有什麼因應的措施?您是指青年失業嗎?青年失業我們推了非常多的行政措施。包括投資青年就業方案。包括鼓勵青年的中階人力禁用。我們行政措施、獎勵措施非常的多。"},{"start":5797.308,"end":5799.209,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":5843.975,"end":5865.965,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝我請部長請何部長你們9月份在屏東離港有做一個徵才那廠商有提供了280個工作機會那部長還有署長到最後的媒合成功率是多少我寫署長回答好不好"},{"start":5872.84,"end":5899.758,"text":"委員因為這個我可能再進一步再瞭解再提好因為我看有一些大田啦科隆啦橋本生醫啦等等這些齁是他們提出來兩百多個職缺但是我看那個情緒都很假啦嗯然後三萬上下齁嗯那你看我現在要看的就是像大疆生醫齁是他也提結果是到底"},{"start":5900.859,"end":5919.81,"text":"有先講阿母啦是我們趕快來確認這一個媒合數字對提供給委員因為這個很重要啦這個不然的話你收職缺那麼多然後還有人找不到工作是自己的心態的問題本位的問題還是真的工作不適合他"},{"start":5921.506,"end":5946.864,"text":"我覺得齁其實就像您看到的多半薪資都偏低這個就是大問題啦那我們國人就是希望有合理薪資啦那你現在合理薪資到底是多少對這就是雙方之間的這個的落差所以這個一直在這部分我覺得落差挺大的這個也是當今缺工的主要原因啦是"},{"start":5947.932,"end":5970.201,"text":"我們原住民的朋友在山上每天都是由一個一個一個公投然後開著鄉行車就把他們的好朋友都帶到都會區有的是駕無幫的電無幫的有的是駕鐵的綁鐵的他們一天都可以拿到兩萬一天拿到兩千六"},{"start":5973.322,"end":5999.614,"text":"生疏會是2200那如果比較成熟3000塊都有是是是我們要請電話班的請不了一天2800找不到人然後他們都跑去台積電在高鐵旁邊的台積電台積電那邊一天是4500但是他們很嚴格都是要蓋安全帶什麼什麼就看"},{"start":6001.195,"end":6021.21,"text":"他不容許出什麼意外那他變成他在挑工啦他在挑工那我們這邊民間的如果要找模板工、鐵工就是要等他們有放假所以我是覺得欠人欠到土水的欠"},{"start":6024.773,"end":6034.939,"text":"每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。"},{"start":6042.843,"end":6048.428,"text":"委員您講的像這個營建業的部分我跟您報告去年開了一萬兩千人嘛到現在實際進來的只有七八千人實際進來喔那後來我們有去跟營建署檢討是為什麼"},{"start":6061.724,"end":6080.478,"text":"那原來就是說因為當時在訂那一個招聘許可的時候有一個一年的期限那營建署也把那個一年的期限比同製造業這樣來訂所以那就會導致他的空缺就懸在那裡一直不用所以其實"},{"start":6081.579,"end":6097.991,"text":"在營建院的移工還有七八千人可以補進來都還沒補這個就是您講的剛才就是營建工地的問題其實這部分也是一個大問題所以我們現在請營建署要趕快把那個等待期縮短趕快禁用讓他們進來這樣子所以勞動彈性化"},{"start":6102.475,"end":6120.37,"text":"職業技能深化跟轉弦這個是很重要那你們有在輔導嗎?譬如說你們的執訊所有在蓋空調給他們給他們科技及證照這樣他們也能修就比較多有有有這有在做吧?"},{"start":6121.15,"end":6146.385,"text":"有就是委員像冷凍空調確實很缺昨天服務業的這個工會也在講那麼可是就是說我們像中高齡跟婦女也有在關於他的部分工時我們都還有獎勵的還有植物再設計也都有獎勵其實中高齡跟婦女在這部分的那一個績效是不錯的就是我們的獎勵措施落實的績效可是比較不好的大概就是青年這一塊對是"},{"start":6148.226,"end":6167.872,"text":"那第二個就是像護理人力他現在一年進入職場差不多4到5千人但是這個都是20到24歲啦專畢業跟大學畢業然後考上進入職場一年差不多4千到5千很高興啦但對不起30到35歲每年離職的有4千到5千"},{"start":6173.121,"end":6198.601,"text":"所以剛才...剛才just make剛才哭哭啦那衛部發一個豪語說我們到2030年要補7萬人8萬人的護理我看那是胡說八道他沒有什麼配套然後啦配套又很低那人家搞不清現在的護理人員為什麼不進入主場"},{"start":6200.379,"end":6213.776,"text":"不僅是廚藏事務的原因,不是說你給他帶,這副律師在病房都很高了捏,那帶ICU的要不要更高啦,像我們ICU的副律師一年可以拿到90萬到100萬以上啦"},{"start":6217.054,"end":6227.143,"text":"不過那是醫院委員的經營理念是善待員工所以這個護理的職很薄你沒在插?不是沒在插我那個醫院副主已經開放讓喬外森可以做就是喬外森可以來當副主他們也可以接受訓練當照護員"},{"start":6243.794,"end":6258.6,"text":"趙副委員還不行也可以也可以我們一般要請到那個副總我們都希望他有趙副委員有有有可以有受訓還有科企現在考試是比試還有技能考都考現在也蠻嚴格的"},{"start":6260.08,"end":6287.513,"text":"所以我其實建議可以跟計職或護理學校這個應該就是建議業者就是我們醫院的經營者啦是不是可以跟護理學校這些計職學校大家把這一個就綁起來包括我們本土的或是橋外生現在中大型醫院都到學校去找人從比如說專科就從專二專三就開始綁了是是是是一個補他一萬塊的生活津貼對對對然後一年12萬然後"},{"start":6289.994,"end":6315.713,"text":"綁三年將來要服務三年服務三年是心碎交給喔還是只有拔那個拔那個三年這樣所以有點像公會生那種感覺半公會生所以醫療院所可以做的他們都很努力在做是我們也希望跟教育部來擴大這方面的那你勞動部這邊好像也沒什麼誘因你應該砸錢啊你錢那麼多你基金那麼多"},{"start":6318.035,"end":6333.788,"text":"醫療院所補一份你會給他補一份嗎?要不要?你是指那一個比如說像這個橋外生,本地生的,或者是橋外生的有點像棄作,種田的棄作,這個叫棄業嘛我們醫療院所借一萬,你也一萬給他"},{"start":6337.935,"end":6365.102,"text":"其實我們有一個雙軌計劃本來就是這個可以考慮啦這個真的可以考慮我們來研究好不好你綁不住啊然後30到35歲的你要離職的你也要用心啊這為什麼會離職我是不是要結婚之後要顧孩子啦衝生啦一直不來我跟你講現在的醫療是日清夜異我們在醫院上班的護理人員如果請個一年假請個半年請個一年甚至是要兩年兩年之後他要回來他會怕捏"},{"start":6366.946,"end":6376.335,"text":"會怕捏 因為他已經改了又改 改了幾個版本了 健保署什麼都沒辦法做 每天就在那裏不當不曬 現在來電腦看不到了 跟不上了 他要恐慌所以他要回來病房照顧病人在ICU 那更不用講了 他嚇壞了 所以這個一定要搞到這樣嗎 我就講健保署"},{"start":6391.585,"end":6410.33,"text":"幾乎每一季都在有新的新的怪招又來了所以醫療院所疲於奔命那這些護理人員最好是罐頭給他點一點罐頭的資訊讓他點是最好不然說你要叫他寫要叫他照顧病人要就是家屬的柔韌沒人打得掉"},{"start":6411.334,"end":6431.143,"text":"所以這個你要跟衛生部這邊好好來考量二度就業的婦女我們最care二度就業為什麼進不來為什麼不敢來是不是有歧視或者是你的職場對他不友善這個都很重要的事情所以你來看深入的"},{"start":6431.863,"end":6431.883,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":6460.025,"end":6480.822,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員那等一下在政策前委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘好我們請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席我們還是有請何部長"},{"start":6484.771,"end":6507.883,"text":"部長好部長好謝謝早上您提供的這些簡報的資料讓我們知道目前台灣缺工的狀況我們到底是缺勞工或者是缺低薪的勞工這個可能裡面有很多的內涵還可以持續的討論那早上很多委員也提供很多意見給部長這邊參考我就針對於即將到來的颱風"},{"start":6512.246,"end":6536.882,"text":"大家其實都蠻關心的到底颱風架要怎麼放對勞工朋友的權益勞動權有沒有受到什麼影響這部分也先來跟部長跟市長來請教一下其實我們期待的就是針對於這個勞工朋友當他碰到颱風的時候上一次三拓颱風的經驗會讓大家很擔心"},{"start":6539.784,"end":6558.258,"text":"到底怎麼樣精進我們這個天氣颱風這樣的天災對臺灣的影響的同時那針對於在出勤的時候勞工要不要出勤應該是以安全為索要這一部分部長其實也講得非常的清楚這是在9月30日的新聞稿"},{"start":6558.938,"end":6584.759,"text":"提供非常明確的一些期許或者是類似指引讓企業主或者是所有的勞動朋友有好的瞭解針對這部分應該怎麼樣來處理不過我們也知道其實公務人員碰到颱風當天如果沒有出錢的話依照規定可以不出錢的時候信奉是會照給這是目前我們知道這個公務人員有這樣的保障"},{"start":6586.7,"end":6611.099,"text":"勞動朋友如果沒有出勤的時候能不能夠比照類似的方法或者是研議盡量往這邊來有比較靠攏的機會這部分不知道部長目前有沒有一些想法或者是如何能夠讓勞動朋友在碰到颱風尤其是有安全考量之下有沒有這樣方面的勞動權的一些維護"},{"start":6612.139,"end":6633.529,"text":"是,二委員其實您看喔,就是陳文林所說我這只要颱風一來馬上就發新聞稿然後提醒僱主不宜扣當日薪資對,就是其實就是說我現在是沒這個要立法強制規定比較難可是我現在就是也是都暗示僱主這是指引啦"},{"start":6633.889,"end":6633.909,"text":" 是。"},{"start":6656.459,"end":6677.21,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6677.61,"end":6698.017,"text":"他覺得你應該來的而沒來這樣子啦是可是這也是我們整體縣市長們在決定放假的時候的決策是好那另外一個問題就是說當然颱風當天是可以比照類似的辦理沒問題可是如果是輪大夜班或者是三班制的話就有一些困擾"},{"start":6700.499,"end":6717.134,"text":"這大業怎麼辦?那在隔一天就是放假當天的隔一天早上如何能夠因應這部分齁其實也都有相當多的困難這個都可以很容易可以理解可以了解在規範上是有它困難的地方"},{"start":6717.814,"end":6732.321,"text":"那如果在這種比較極端或者是不是那麼可以掌握的情況之下那僱主如果要求出勤或者是要做一些因應的話那勞工可以依法來因應這樣的"},{"start":6735.113,"end":6750.483,"text":"臺風假的前一天或後一天碰到相對比較困難的情形之下那這邊不曉得部長這邊有沒有哪一些可以提供的指引或是可以提供的一些準則給僱主或是給勞動朋友們做一個參考"},{"start":6751.568,"end":6767.63,"text":"是我們其實也有建議就是說不建議啦這其實也是指引啦就是說你如果遇到這種輪班的你一定要去可是你又遇到那麼大的風雨對不對這個可以透過勞資協商"},{"start":6769.832,"end":6784.244,"text":"公會或者是勞資會議那當然如果沒有勞資會議的你至少是勞僱雙方要講嘛對那你如果沒有講的話就又一定要求你要來這勞工也是可以跟勞動局投訴的"},{"start":6786.646,"end":6802.087,"text":"所以如果說部裡面有出類似的職員的話那相對來講他們做勞資協商的時候就有一個我們來多宣導其實每次颱風一來我們都有宣導告訴他說颱風雨很大這你不可以隨便要求勞工一定要出勤"},{"start":6802.547,"end":6817.904,"text":"因為我們下面看到一個數據這個是透過我們行政院人事行政總署提供的一個資料過去20幾年來我們看到這個各個縣市因為所在的"},{"start":6818.985,"end":6819.005,"text":"移籃"},{"start":6837.901,"end":6863.749,"text":"他們這些企業主或是勞工朋友們碰到比較多的颱風下他們的營運模式這邊不曉得部長或是部裡面有沒有針對這樣的這些影響多去了解看看因為這個會制定到未來政策的部分可能會隨著這些不同地方去掌握了解的話也許對於部裡面制定相關的準則會有一些幫助"},{"start":6864.609,"end":6888.758,"text":"好,我們來研究看看,好嗎?是,好的,我們來研究看。好,那再過來的部分就是,即使我們經歷過一次非常嚴重的這些疫情,那以後我們也希望能夠改善這個缺工的狀況,所以就有一個擴大方案。那個擴大方案裡面,勞動部所需要掌握的職長就是去"},{"start":6889.338,"end":6917.705,"text":"做這個專案的徵才還有如何能夠去把信任的內容可以做得比較好那這在那個時候是在2023年就是去年的4月27號頒布了這個就業方案那這個就業方案執行到目前為止我們看到的就是要事辦一年投入10億元促進兩萬人就業當初定立的這個目標是這個樣子那其中有兩大的計畫"},{"start":6919.305,"end":6947.416,"text":"獎勵計劃一個就是缺工專案的就業一個是缺工專案的參訓獎勵計劃那我們看到的目前的成果部長可以參考一下在參訓的獎勵計劃的部分到目前為止其實執行的好像需要再加強那這個加強本身當然是繼續努力的同時那是不是當初在訂政策或者是執行內容是有需要麻煩部裡面再做檢討的"},{"start":6948.564,"end":6964.221,"text":"是委員我剛剛其實之前王玉敏委員也是問這個問題我也報告過就是顧主的期待跟勞工的期待之間的落差很大就是我們的尤其這個都是針對旅宿觀光業"},{"start":6965.282,"end":6985.802,"text":"是針對旅宿觀光業的缺工而去處理的那他們都希望要薪水要更低啦可是我們來這邊的勞工朋友他們對這樣的還都希望薪資要更合理一點啦所以這中間的落差很大那麼所以旅宿業他才會希望我們要開移工因為移工可以薪水更低"},{"start":6986.483,"end":7009.405,"text":"可是這也不是我們覺得合理的方向啦對所以這個就是我為什麼議會改善缺工擴大就業方案我要再來跟交通部好好的討論因為如果這個方案實在是也沒有很好的成效我們要怎麼來改進讓誘因更增加這是我們要來跟交通部一起共同努力的"},{"start":7010.457,"end":7032.511,"text":"麻煩部長可以再跟跨部會的這些研議讓政策落實可以有機會做得更好最後一部分就是今天的主題有關於我們如何針對於全國缺工尤其是這個全時的部分那其實昨天好像部長也出席了商總他們辦的這個相關的會議"},{"start":7036.233,"end":7056.504,"text":"什麼時候有機會來舉辦這種比較屬於全國性的跨部會性的這些缺工會議已經有沒有定了期程或者是成績會到哪裡那會預計有多少的部會的參與範圍那這部分各位部長也可以有一個簡單的說明"},{"start":7058.449,"end":7084.76,"text":"跟委員報告其實全國缺工會議並不是我這邊的想法跟規劃啦這當然是民間的期待啦這原來其實也是商總朋友們的期待不過因為昨天我們已經初步有聽取了商總的會員們包括這個各個服務業的各行各業的代表們的意見啦我想我們先來就這部分來好好的來探討跟處理"},{"start":7085.16,"end":7111.233,"text":"那麼至於是不是要有全國缺工會議這是行政院層級的事情對那麼也是有代院方的想法啦對這我目前我這邊沒有任何主動規劃的想法對了解所以如果有參與的話就麻煩部長能夠針對我們這個勞動的權益也能夠針對您的職長來多加以在會議當中可以跟各部會來討論是是是好那就謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7113.975,"end":7119.039,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請徐巧欣委員發言謝謝主席那我們有請部長請何部長"},{"start":7136.557,"end":7157.66,"text":"部長好,那我今天要質詢的議題其實跟我自己本委員會的國防部有關那我也在國防部問過了但因為跟勞動部也有關所以我也要拿這個議題來跟你詢問那主要就是關於節日休假的這個問題其實我們可以看在國防部裡面我們看一下這個表格"},{"start":7158.66,"end":7183.314,"text":"國防部有分成軍職人員跟文職人員還有聘僱人員好那我們可以看一下就是他們現在就是有在放五一勞動節跟九三軍人節的你可以看到就是說呢因為九三軍人節是針對這個我們軍職人員能夠放的假那所以說軍職的國防部人員他當然他放的是九三軍人節的假他不放五一勞動節的假"},{"start":7184.855,"end":7213.642,"text":"那我們在文職人員的部分呢因為他不是屬於軍職他可能比方說他是內勤任務他可能是這個比如說秘書啊或者是說傳送公文啊等等他並不是軍人的身份可是因為我們的這個規定上面那比方說他這個假設他比如說我們問了有傳送專委科長針對監察院或立法院然後協助跑公文的這個是國防部的文職人員"},{"start":7214.662,"end":7233.275,"text":"那他本身並不具備軍職身份他不是軍人但他也可以放9393軍人節的假因為配合機關好配合機關這個我們也沒有意見哦因為我們覺得大家都工作很辛苦可以放假可是到我們約聘僱人員的時候就非常尷尬了約聘僱人員那個部長應該是屬於"},{"start":7237.477,"end":7263.026,"text":"勞基法規定對不對來我先看前一頁軍職人員跟文職人員他們都是屬於公務人員對吧對公務人員只是軍職他應該是有93軍人節的假可以放那文職人員他是因為配合機關所以才放的93軍人節的假因為他不是軍人對吧好但是聘僱人員他不一樣他是屬於勞基法所管理的我們看下一張"},{"start":7264.166,"end":7285.385,"text":"所以你看我特別走到這邊這個是國防部的公務人員出行的注意事項他說公務人員也就是我剛講文職的這一塊他是配合本部軍職人員所以才在軍人節放假的所以他不是軍人但他可以在軍人節放假是因為配合我們的這個公務人員的部分"},{"start":7285.945,"end":7311.947,"text":"但是我們在約聘僱人員的部分呢他只能在九三軍人節跟五一勞動節之間二選一所以我們回到上一章來看就是變成是說我們的約聘僱人員他們就比較辛苦因為呢他不應該是二選一因為呢他如果說我們是認為好比方說你看文職人員他是配合機關休假那約聘僱人員他也應該要能夠配合機關休假"},{"start":7312.608,"end":7327.285,"text":"但他同時他是勞工他也沒有像我們的公務人員有這麼多的相關保障所以照理來說我們希望爭取的就是說約聘僱人員他們可以同時按照我們的勞基法能夠放五一勞動節的勞基法的假期"},{"start":7327.825,"end":7349.758,"text":"那同時那是不是能夠配合九三軍人節的機關也能夠放假那又或者是他可以選一天我們看一下下一張我們的國軍聘僱人員的請休假規定喔他五一勞動節裡面寫說跟九三軍人節呢他只能擇一休假所以呢他會被變成是有強迫換假的這個情況出現喔"},{"start":7352.58,"end":7363.966,"text":"那所以說這個你今天五一勞動節跟九三軍人節二則已休我想要問一下勞動部的部長這個有沒有違反相關的勞基法的規定"},{"start":7365.787,"end":7390.225,"text":"沒有耶委員因為：請說明對他這個就是說他五一勞動節那他五一勞動節如果要上班的話那他需要提供額外的薪資嗎這些月聘僱人員他是勞基他不是公務人員唷他除非他同意換那他如果那天沒有放他那天如果有那個的話要不要提供薪資"},{"start":7391.7,"end":7420.148,"text":"要提供薪資那可是他那天沒有放假而去上班你懂嗎所以部長您懂我意思嗎就是說他五一勞動節跟九三軍人節是折一休假但他如果其實是在五一勞動節休假的話那是他對他如果沒有在五一勞動節休假的話應該他要有額外的薪資對不對可是在我們國防部的聘僱人員請假規定裡面是沒有給予額外薪資的因為他告訴你說你可以折一休假"},{"start":7421.71,"end":7449.129,"text":"所以這個情況我想要問一下勞動部要怎麼解決就是說我們能不能夠去跟國防部我已經跟國防部問過這個問題但他們感覺對於勞動條件因為這是屬於約聘僱不是屬於就是公職人員所以他們不是這麼清楚所以我今天才來帶這個問題來請教你說是不是能夠跟國防部這裡來協調就不要讓我們的約聘僱人員他五一沒有放到的時候他沒有得到他應該要有的勞動條件"},{"start":7450.47,"end":7478.425,"text":"是當然這個委員我來跟國防部來討論看看好因為我上次跟國防部談的時候他聽不太懂我的問題因為他們只知道就是說公務人員的部分怎麼處理在約聘僱的這個部分那最後我再強調一下我的訴求就是說呢我們希望就是當然最好啦九三軍人節配合機關休假五一勞動節因為他是約聘僱人員能夠休假那假設說他只能選一的話那五一他是因為他是他是"},{"start":7478.905,"end":7480.967,"text":"我們主動跟國防部關心一下"},{"start":7504.195,"end":7512.119,"text":"好謝謝徐巧欣委員接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在好那我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":7557.056,"end":7558.422,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8154.718,"end":8156.801,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請何部長請何部長"},{"start":8174.8,"end":8190.281,"text":"好部長好部長今天全時職位缺工的狀況我想臺灣這兩年缺工狀況確實大家各行各業都有感受到但是我看到勞動部今天的一個報告缺工數說只有多少6萬6千"},{"start":8192.183,"end":8212.976,"text":"這是我們自己部內的調查對這是會不會太美化數字了委員感覺好像各行各業大家都哀鴻遍野找不到人但是你在講6萬6千那你又講說我們全全台灣勞動人口有多少目前一千多萬一千不止吧沒有那麼多吧勞動人口"},{"start":8215.39,"end":8233.399,"text":"就你的缺工原因分析 對不對你的缺工原因分析到2070年我國工作年齡人口只剩696萬那平均少了18萬人換言之你這樣子的意思就是說現在勞動人口差不多700多萬嗎"},{"start":8234.66,"end":8244.713,"text":"是不是是啊那我現在講是說那我們既然朝委會排這個案件這個專案討論那我們的缺工到底實質的狀況是多少"},{"start":8245.953,"end":8263.864,"text":"委員我跟您報告這個主要是我們詢問的定義是你過去6個月這個職位一直空著真的找不到人主要是定義不一樣啦所以他得出來的數字會不一樣是啦那所以我們現在掌握勞動部掌握我們台灣現在缺工的人數"},{"start":8265.901,"end":8293.199,"text":"對,委員就是我自己的調查到7月底這個是正確的6個月找不到是6.6萬那我們大家需要的人數到底有多少你一定是先有缺口我們才先了解原因我們才能想方設法解決啊委員會內的調查就是6.6萬的缺口所以會不會太美化數字啊這不是美化數字6.6萬也不少的也是蠻大的也是蠻龐大的但是跟我們部長"},{"start":8295.1,"end":8318.343,"text":"本席如果說連一開始我們都沒有辦法推進的話我很難跟你實質討論欸因為實際上召委會排這個案件我覺得很好啊我們都關心啊我們現在只是想要找出什麼樣的問題來解決啊因為你今天給我們的部分除了媒合之前都在做以外我覺得看到比較創新的地方是可能外籍的引進移工的部分會更加的鬆綁"},{"start":8319.304,"end":8321.847,"text":"是是是所以你預計現在除了服務業以外啦主管機關送案可能都會放寬行業別來使用移工"},{"start":8338.288,"end":8366.296,"text":"甚至包括我之前在交通委員會有詢問過連公車駕駛大貨車駕駛可能都會開放是不是我們現在是先開放橋外生中階人力是的部分我們預計可能會開放多少橋外生橋外生其實沒有人數的限制只要他願意來這個我們都會歡迎的所以預計他是人才的概念是所以預計這樣子開放之後會補足多少的缺工的人力"},{"start":8366.687,"end":8391.267,"text":"你是指公車嗎是公車或者是說你們現在來做一個分配因為現在喬外生之前我們也講過喬外生來到臺灣能夠鬆綁那有多少因為現在公車業者的人力的不足駕駛人力的不足其實他以某種程度上他還不是說真的缺工的問題因為臺灣有大貨車跟大客車駕照的人數比現在實際服務的人數多"},{"start":8394.85,"end":8418.371,"text":"但很多人他有那個駕照但他不願意投入這個行業是因為因為勞動條件是啊所以你今天如果說即便是開放僑外生他可能開放了多少人他也不一定能夠投入這樣的行業嗎是沒錯接下來你們還要做其他的業別要做所謂的這個移工的一個開放那我們想要問到底這是不是真的能夠解決我們現在國內缺工的問題啊"},{"start":8419.144,"end":8446.791,"text":"委員這個就是我先跟您報告關於您剛才詢問的橋外生的部分會有多少空間現在留在臺灣的讀書的橋外生有一萬三千人一年那我們大概普遍留下來去年是七千那麼我們現在把配額全部打開希望一萬三千人都能留下來可是這個就是我們的業者要去創造條件把他們創造一個吸引他們留下來的條件這個就是最主要的問題了"},{"start":8447.931,"end":8469.408,"text":"對那麼所以我開了也要看我們雇主這邊的配合啦對這樣才有辦法有效的去吸引這一個海橋外生進來這樣是您提到重點我在比較線說來講因為不管是客運駕駛或者是說相關的大貨車的一個駕駛都應該要有相關的這個"},{"start":8471.123,"end":8487.204,"text":"的一個提升嗎?包括說的當然會覺得是說客運司機應該要取得駕照員能力業者提供薪資應該高於五萬塊以上然後甚至倉儲隨車助理要求要取得起重機駕照等執照等等嘛對不對那這一些的要求勒?"},{"start":8488.438,"end":8488.458,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":8516.423,"end":8545.033,"text":"本席這邊還是會再一次來要求啦就說相關勞動部我還是一樣回過頭來就說其實你今天講說缺工數計6.6萬是這說實在話這真的是跟我們現在行業大家的普遍的感覺這是有落差如果說你講是說我們台灣現在700萬的勞動人口結果只有缺工6.6萬那平均不到1%欸你等於是我們現在缺工不到1%但是你真的問各行各業真的是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8546.093,"end":8565.108,"text":"我說實在話大家每一個委員都已經聽得到每一個行業真的都是找不到工作那所以如果說沒有真的面對問題來解決問題的話我覺得用這種美化的數字確實感覺勞動部還是跟我們一般的民眾生活是不同的一個平清時空"},{"start":8566.113,"end":8567.174,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們部長請何部長"},{"start":8597.222,"end":8613.382,"text":"委員好部長早我想部長一定知道今年是龍年嘛那如果依照我們這個國人的習俗來講龍年大家都希望生個龍子但是部長知不知道我們今年的持續的新生兒還是一個下降的狀態"},{"start":8614.943,"end":8639.251,"text":"對就是顯然這個就表示說未來在勞動力的部分恐怕無法期待有太充足的所謂人力資源那麼我們湊過移工來協助這個部分大概已經成為了一個全球的趨勢了以我們現在國內15到29的勞工人口近10年大概就減少了16萬那麼言下之意這個缺工"},{"start":8639.831,"end":8645.717,"text":"恐怕它就是一個臺灣接下來必須要面臨的問題那麼本席今天在這裡就想要請問你才剛剛昨天出席了全國服務業缺工的會議那麼請問面對部長怎麼來看這個趨勢以及勞動部是不是有先未雨綢繆那麼在昨天的會議當中到底得到一個什麼樣的結論跟想法呢"},{"start":8660.888,"end":8681.425,"text":"是跟委員報告就是當然缺工是一個目前我們當今面臨的嚴峻的問題那麼服務業的朋友們他們反映的當然也反映了服務業的缺工的現況那主要其實我們大概歸納分析起來當然他的基層的那種體力工他是一塊"},{"start":8682.225,"end":8698.142,"text":"可是其實他的中階技術人員的缺乏也是佔其中的大概三分之一有所以其實這也吻合我們今天的統計調查啦就是我們現在其實最缺的是中階技術人力"},{"start":8699.042,"end":8724.638,"text":"而不是在那一種最基層的體力工那部分其實我們大概能開的大概已經都開放了所以如果這樣的話我們會強化引進中階技術人才尤其在我們本土的中階技術人力的培育包括產學訓的合作跟技職學生的這樣子的鼓勵還有包括我們引進外籍"},{"start":8725.538,"end":8753.859,"text":"中階技術人才包括橋外生甚至未來也許考慮進一步銜接技術移民這樣子的制度來做其實講到技術移民當然技術有非常多包括連語文可能也是一個技術那本席其實今天要跟部長來研究的這個題目就是說在外國的這個中階技術人才當中如何留下這些我們已經跟他有做配合比如說像本席來講我們這種"},{"start":8755.52,"end":8764.628,"text":"處於上有這個高堂那下有一些必須要照顧的這種中間三名字然後我們又是雙薪家庭的時候那麼進入家庭中協助我們做不論是看護或是照護甚至於幫傭都是非常重要的那麼"},{"start":8774.497,"end":8793.235,"text":"能夠跟在地的溝通或了解台灣的文化尤其重要那麼我們來看一下以現在日本或者是印度或日本或者是泰國或是其他鄰近的這些國家以這個我手上的資料來講日本他6月通過了育成就業的法案嘛"},{"start":8793.615,"end":8804.903,"text":"就是一定的移工進入到他們的國家之後一兩年他可能就甚至於他是可以永久取得簽證的延伸那韓國為了解決他們農業的問題2024年也增加開放給留學生的家屬6個月的短期簽證那加上韓國的工資日本的工資都比台灣高那麼像日韓"},{"start":8817.833,"end":8834.864,"text":"在跟我們搶工的時候我們如何來給予更多讓這些已經熟識台灣的環境然後可以在家中的輔助者我知道在總質詢的時候卓院長也說了有關於家庭幫庸這個部分他要放寬但是本席今天要談的問題不是放寬的問題而是"},{"start":8838.286,"end":8838.827,"text":"但是家庭幫庸沒有"},{"start":8858.365,"end":8862.647,"text":"了解但是本就覺得很奇怪啊為什麼家庭幫傭會被排除在家庭看護或機構看護之外他們所處理的問題其實不會比較簡單那同樣的他要進入家庭的時候尤其是他進入一個家庭裡面做幫傭的時候他了解這個家庭的需求"},{"start":8879.076,"end":8903.564,"text":"然後語文又可以適用那麼有沒有可能他可以跟機構看護或家庭看護一樣因為我知道啦2023年只有1891人2024也只有2171人人數不多可是他對於我們這種三明治家庭或者是職業婦女或雙薪家庭其實是非常重要的一個支柱那麼這個部分有沒有可能做一些檢討或改進又或者放寬"},{"start":8905.905,"end":8930.985,"text":"委員當時我們在移工流財久用方案其實曾經跟衛福部討論過關於家庭幫傭也讓他留用的問題不過那時候衛福部是反對主要是主管機關是衛福部那麼他是為了所謂育兒成長階段問題的考慮當然這跟他反對但是問題是他既然可以來這個家庭他可以來這個家庭但是時間到了反而不能"},{"start":8933.507,"end":8949.696,"text":"留用那這個部分沒關係如果是主管機關衛福部我會追因為我想部長你也了解嗎一個家庭當中今天一個家庭幫傭你說他幫了一段時間之後因為孩子長大就沒有需要了嗎"},{"start":8950.776,"end":8951.036,"text":"部長同意"},{"start":8978.803,"end":8983.508,"text":"同意同意我們來跟衛福部一起會商好嗎好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝林楚英委員接下來請陳庭菲委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請何部長"},{"start":9004.854,"end":9026.92,"text":"部長好我想我們現在遇到最大的問題就是說一方面有人沒有投入然後一方面是有老闆請不到工那這當中到底為什麼會有這樣的一個差別這個所謂的一個學用落差的問題還是因為"},{"start":9029.65,"end":9029.73,"text":"是﹝有﹞"},{"start":9039.662,"end":9064.194,"text":"那到底是什麼原因?這是您講的都是原因學用落差就是一個很嚴重的問題學用落差然後還有勞動力我們年輕一輩的不願意進入然後如果有技術面的問題我們現在都缺技術面是這樣嗎好那重點是我們即將又有378萬的人要退休了"},{"start":9065.017,"end":9084.992,"text":"那這些如果退了之後其實很多技術人員說真的他們現在都被重聘回來為什麼要重聘回來沒有技術員可以去指導啊然後所有的公司或是工廠的一個延續性延續不下去嘛"},{"start":9085.836,"end":9112.327,"text":"那重點是好我們現在目前一些剛退休的我們還可以拼回來可是如果在10年後呢在10年後呢所以這個問題現在的缺工從工業面工業面缺工3600人這都是我們勞動部的資料喔工業就缺了3600人好你說我們的勞動力"},{"start":9114.38,"end":9121.305,"text":"比較辛苦的勞動力不願意進入到我們的工業那好我們看到服務業也缺了35600人連服務業喔也缺了35600人"},{"start":9128.243,"end":9149.296,"text":"所以這個問題已經到了你沒有去把它變成是一個上位各部會去討論的說真的很難解決已經很難解決了我們所看到的說現在目前失業率可能依照比例當中雖然我們現在總計是3.43%"},{"start":9153.138,"end":9175.943,"text":"可是我們看到一個區塊很大區塊就是15到24歲就是我們剛畢業的這個區塊那奇怪了剛畢業的這個區塊我們再看往前光服務業不要說工業啦工業你說因為有一些勞動然後有一些年輕人可能技術面沒有辦法可是光服務業"},{"start":9177.483,"end":9177.523,"text":"好,部長。"},{"start":9187.797,"end":9212.006,"text":"這怎麼辦是這就是委員在15到24歲11趴的這樣的失業率這代表一個學用落差真的很嚴重就是另外一個是新型態的平台經濟的勞動型態也吸引了很多年輕人所以讓他們也不願意去投入這種傳統的勞動領域甚至包括服務業都是"},{"start":9212.526,"end":9239.044,"text":"所以這那包服可是呢我們服務業的部門呢他又普遍低薪這也是一個大問題對那部長這怎麼辦這個我們都知道整個新型態服務的一些改變讓年輕人寧可進入到新型態的一個服務勞動然後不願意進入到這比較實質面實體面的一些服務勞動"},{"start":9241.005,"end":9259.92,"text":"我們就認為在這個區塊那怎麼辦因為平台總是有一些空間而已嘛並不是全部都可以進入到這裡當它飽和的時候還是要回歸到一個現實面那這怎麼辦我們現在就是要強化青年"},{"start":9262.121,"end":9281.117,"text":"這個包括他的執訓還有包括他的中階技術人力的培育因為長期以來說解決學用落差就是我們現在要也是要跟教育部經濟部一起來合作來處理的就是這個學訓用的整合要真的要趕快再強化對那我們部長這個問題大概從五六年前我們發現從一直講一直講講到現在"},{"start":9288.603,"end":9308.851,"text":"學用落差當時候最夯的就是博士去賣雞排那個當時候哇大家一片的震驚但是現在稀鬆平常現在是稀鬆平常所以我們反而一直在講不但沒有解決問題反而問題更大"},{"start":9311.345,"end":9328.121,"text":"那表示到底是我們的勞動部教育部我們相關的單單位沒有整合起來或是並沒有真正針對問題去做解決還是甚至我們這樣的一個平台我們不是固定都有開相關會議嗎有"},{"start":9330.003,"end":9349.862,"text":"我們有三部會的平台會議可是平安心講這真的要檢討就是這相關的學訓用整合計畫目前落實都不好對啊那為什麼落實不好部長你都會感覺落實不好了那為什麼會落實不好"},{"start":9351.764,"end":9371.235,"text":"這個問題明明就就部長我相信在五六年前那個新聞大家非常震驚說哇你看博士去賣雞排現在大家是覺得正常哇這是變成大家心態改變了不是政府改變了是大家內心深處的心態改變了這是有問題所以你看我們這個所謂跨部會的平台會議我們已經幾年了"},{"start":9383.382,"end":9409.3,"text":"幾年了?對啊,四五年了這個平台就是在當時候這個新聞出來大家覺得太嚴重了不是浪費我們整個教育資源而已是一個博士生欸一個博士所以我們認為說這四五年來不但沒有改變更加嚴重"},{"start":9411.547,"end":9429.277,"text":"部長怎麼辦在你們依照你們在第一線的這個勞動力的一個評估跟看法對委員跟委員報告其實就是產業的需求似乎在我們學訓用整合的這一個銜接上一直都有落差"},{"start":9430.097,"end":9456.764,"text":"就是你找了學生來可是呢企業在哪裡就是企業也未必願意來先把這些學生先可是部長你如果問教育部教育部就跟你講說有啊我們都有在做盤整啊然後我們也都有符合我們資訊我們技職學校都有在開課啊"},{"start":9458.364,"end":9478.515,"text":"問題就來了就是技職學校所開的課並不是現在產業所需要的那現在產業需要什麼你們是不是要彙整你們勞動部跟經濟部是這是我們現在要去彙整的重點你們要去彙整啊你們勞動部跟經濟部你們需求是什麼你們的要求是什麼"},{"start":9479.815,"end":9505.273,"text":"這樣才能真正在教育部的體系當中在執系或是在技職的一個系所裡面有他發揮的空間嘛對不對那這個到底什麼時候部長你可不可以給我們時間我每次如果沒有壓時間好像今天講完之後就不見了是不是這個檢討是不是可以一個月給我們知道說到底經濟部跟勞動部現在盤整出來"},{"start":9506.374,"end":9506.514,"text":"接下來請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":9539.35,"end":9541.975,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請部長請何部長部長早安"},{"start":9550.322,"end":9571.987,"text":"今天剛好說有一個颱風馬上要過來嘛那今天早上已經那抗疫颱風已經說已經轉成強度颱風嘛那我想說因為也有氣象專家預估說接下來可能這兩天會可能會放颱風架會有這個狀況所以我想說因為這是一個大家很關心的議題啦所以我想跟部長就教一下這個部分"},{"start":9573.587,"end":9590.525,"text":"當然是說法律並沒有颱風架這個名詞嘛對不對這應該是這樣沒有錯啦所以這颱風架到底算不算架期這部長算不算架期啊不算架啊所以大家說的那個颱風架其實是一個天然災害發生就是那個"},{"start":9591.994,"end":9595.676,"text":"那我想請教一下地方首長他宣布停班停課地方首長的這個宣布的這個效力有約束民間企業的效力嗎"},{"start":9614.628,"end":9639.93,"text":"沒有欸他是約束機關跟學校對對所以呢就是簡單來說其實很多企業他跟著政府放這個假其實是體恤員工怕他上班危險嘛也就是其實這個要點我要強調這個要點因為他沒有到達法律的位階他是要點所以說對於企業也沒有什麼拘束力嘛那還有你剛剛所提到的其實這個所謂颱風假他不是假"},{"start":9641.271,"end":9655.076,"text":"他根本就不是一個休假概念所以沒有法制化的現狀會發生一個狀況就是說我這邊要大概整理一下第一個就是假設今天公務員在放颱風架我以公務員來說好了公務員在放颱風架的話"},{"start":9657.126,"end":9682.325,"text":"民間企業的人可能會遇到第一個老闆要正常上班像記者這邊很多記者就是這樣老闆會叫他正常上班那第二個呢老闆也可能跟他說那你就不要來上班了可是他就沒有錢當天就沒有錢那第三個就是如果是上班到中午下午放颱風架那也有可能像剛剛那兩個狀況一個是老闆叫你回去沒有錢另外一個是繼續叫你上班上到下班為止"},{"start":9683.266,"end":9707.756,"text":"那因為我們剛剛提到的那個是要點並沒有到法律位階所以勞動部這幾年我看到的對外的說法都是說希望僱主多多照顧跟體系員工宜多給錢宜不扣薪水或提供交通這個宜的意思我想說法律上面就是得嘛那得的意思就是可以要也可以不要所以到最後變成是"},{"start":9708.736,"end":9735.459,"text":"員工在賭運氣看會不會遇到好的老闆那像我知道像記者的他們的體系就是颱風架他還是要上班只是老闆可能會給他補修如果是公務員的話是你沒有上班颱風架放兩天三天他一樣也是領月薪他沒有受影響所以這個我們對於勞工是不是有一點點比較不公平既然颱風天不是"},{"start":9736.688,"end":9752.508,"text":"屬於國定假日那業主要求勞工上班而且沒有那個補假或加班費部長您知道這個嗎當然我們這個就是是我們指引就是勸部主不可以這麼做的"},{"start":9754.008,"end":9768.33,"text":"可是如果只是勸雇主的話對雇主沒有任何拘束力啊那其實委員現在的雇主多半真的都會都會給報告部長我們不能用多半"},{"start":9775.516,"end":9784.964,"text":"政府不是天使組成,人類也不是天使所組成的,所以很多時候做事情不可能像我們完美的思考那個方向去走,一定會有很多雇主"},{"start":9785.845,"end":9813.524,"text":"很難搞我自己以前學分時代打工也遇過很難搞的雇主好那我們看一下就是說其實台風天上班遇到的那個風險是蠻多的其實這個例子太多了我也不細說啦就台風天上班之後出狀況或是上班正常出勤下出狀況的人其實不少所以說這麼多年來政府尤其是我們的現在的執政黨一直說最保障勞工啊"},{"start":9814.244,"end":9833.985,"text":"那是不是說應該要把它從法制化的方向去走而不是留在要點?部裡面可不可以思考這個問題?就是你問那個員工是碰運氣嗎?部長?各位委員報告主要是考慮臺灣的產業特性我們那個中小企業實在太多了各行各業又太那個"},{"start":9834.705,"end":9861.906,"text":"所以你如果用法律其實世界各國也沒有說在用法律規範天災假或是颱風假這樣的東西所以它法制化有一定程度的就是說各國沒有潛力可援引第二個是我們在國內的民情適用上恐怕會有點自愛難寫您想想看連縣市首長放颱風假都會遇到很多抱怨更何況是邏輯法規規定"},{"start":9863.988,"end":9891.629,"text":"我跟部長報告一個點就是說本期這邊建議還是要朝向法治化的方式因為每一個員工他都是一個家庭我們應該保障每一個人真的公務員受盡了保障我幹了24年的公務員排工假放假有薪水照領沒有炒過一毛錢但是勞工很辛苦卻沒有這樣子的對待是不是政府可以把他朝向法治化的方向去走就像您說的大部分的老闆都會"},{"start":9892.93,"end":9893.95,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":9925.659,"end":9950.877,"text":"主席：在黨委員先進：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們何部長請何部長我也好部長好今天我們大家都關心我們的缺工都說全職的缺工對不對好我們看一個部長你知道嗎那個我們不只是勞碌命而且我們有一個部分的特別要跟你講"},{"start":9953.021,"end":9979.819,"text":"我們的部分工時的勞動參與比率很低其實部長你對於全職參與勞動跟部分工時參與勞動你認為有什麼差別其實委員臺灣的所謂什麼總工時場是確實我們不用問總工時場我想部分工時對我們部分工時參與率是比較低的好那你覺得這是僱主不願意給全職工作還是勞工不想做全職的工作"},{"start":9980.846,"end":9998.974,"text":"我們部分工時的參與率低是其實是正面的耶因為其實等於是說等等等等這句話我有一個保留我先問你我沒有說哪正面或負面我說部分工時參與率低是因為僱主不願意提供全職工作還是勞工不想做全職工作"},{"start":10001.041,"end":10025.504,"text":"部分工時差異率低是意味著部份工時的職缺少是老闆不想顧全職還是員工不想做全職我的花了30秒了那聽懂了齁好來講啦我再講更直白一點啦以前人都是結婚啦但是現在說結婚率下降為什麼因為同居就好了啊"},{"start":10026.468,"end":10049.895,"text":"前景國家都這樣子啊可以要結婚啊因為結婚就彼此的什麼權利義務啊同居呢就有同居的一個幸福但是可能彼此沒有約束我用這個方式來說明過去的勞工希望跟僱主有一個從一而終就是包括我們日本的永聘制對不對但是終身僱用制但是現在呢好像勞工對於"},{"start":10051.505,"end":10079.843,"text":"只被一個僱主綁住他所有的時間他不能去做其他兼差可能不一樣像現在副本人都很流行你覺得這個觀念是不是有些不一樣了是當然這個確實清新的勞動的彈性形態這個是現在年輕人而且勞動部現在推銀髮族中高齡就業促進也希望能夠多製造一些部分工時的職缺讓這些中高齡者來參與對不對是不是這樣所以我們說嘛"},{"start":10081.684,"end":10108.417,"text":"產業是不是一定要全職勞工?勞動部要做一個思考就是要問我們勞工需要什麼樣的職缺勞工有的需要全職的職缺有的需要他喜歡部分工時的職缺是不是這樣?是所以我們來勞動部與其問老闆說你需要全職工嗎?我們是否反過來問勞工你希望什麼樣的彈性的工作方式你同不同意?"},{"start":10108.737,"end":10132.137,"text":"同意同意,因為我們在中高齡的這個就業途徑上就是採用這個方式所以其實不只中高齡啊,很多的年輕的不同世代勞動力他也有,他可能一天他寧可把8小時用來兼三份差他不想幫一個老闆做8個小時的工,你覺得有沒有可能?有可能嘛,所以現在的整個工作的概念是認為說過去勞工必要有一個雇主"},{"start":10132.938,"end":10133.258,"text":"其實這是一個趨勢啦"},{"start":10158.86,"end":10185.907,"text":"好 所以這是個趨勢您說對了所以因為這樣的趨勢我們應該先做一個調查瞭解現在勞動力勞工他需求的方向然後呢我們再回過來看產業的需求我前不久在交通部問過客運業啊他們現在缺司機願意做全天8小時的全職的駕駛呢都是中高齡所以不得不交通部延長到68歲那新的年輕的人呢他不想要一天綁8小時"},{"start":10187.347,"end":10210.08,"text":"因此他們就說那我們在尖峰時間我們會顧那些已經退休的回來做兩個小時或者年輕人他就來做兩個小時你支持產業這樣的做法嗎就是他用這個方式來應付他尖峰時間客運業他的尖峰時間需要量很大但是他為了尖峰時間的需求他僱用一堆人不見得顧得住"},{"start":10211.36,"end":10233.97,"text":"所以我問一下客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有沒有沒有很好所以我們就要思考那如果沒有法令上的限制那為什麼僱主跟勞工他們沒有辦法去媒合達成說我想打工的就來打工僱主說你想打工的我就有這個監察的工作給你我們來看一下下一個"},{"start":10235.394,"end":10252.702,"text":"農業需要什麼樣的勞動力?現在農業缺工對不對?有季節性的缺工有常態性的缺工但是呢我們看到一個新聞啊他說你請外籍移工啊寫來做阿公啊為什麼?我農忙的時候我請了外籍移工但是我農協的時候他在做阿公啊你有沒有了解到這個情況?"},{"start":10253.632,"end":10271.653,"text":"我知道所以為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢因為農業生產跟工業生產不同工業生產機器一開24小時你全天一週七天一個月30天一年360天你要隨時都可以農業要看老天爺啊是"},{"start":10272.233,"end":10272.933,"text":"你覺得可不可以?"},{"start":10295.492,"end":10295.972,"text":"其實農閒上學農忙下田"},{"start":10320.865,"end":10328.259,"text":"這裡面就是叫教育部、農業部跟勞動部共同來設計不然的話你知道現在農裡面雇用的"},{"start":10329.864,"end":10355.762,"text":"得到的額外補充勞動力都是產工都是移工他們是8點上班5點下班中間還出來4點就來打工然後8點來打工這個對外籍移工賺錢好但是對他的身體勞動權不好所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的什麼農學工過去我們再往下看有一種叫教育部的做法你看透過PD勞動力我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情那但是他會缺乏什麼保障"},{"start":10356.837,"end":10384.426,"text":"他會缺乏他可能職災的保障有沒有啊他的一個退休準備的保障有沒有啊這個勞動部要去幫忙享受啊包括你現在在支持的外送平台很多外送平台他不想要跟僱主成為全職的勞僱關係但他也不能接受這個承攬關係僱主完全對他沒有義務那有沒有可能在這兩者之間我們找出一個類勞工的方式來保障這些兼職人員部分工時人員他跟僱主之間的關係而且他們彼此的權益可以這樣嗎"},{"start":10385.643,"end":10415.009,"text":"我們來研究好嗎好那最後呢我要告訴你來你要看往下往前跳最後一個你好往前往前不是學校的學工學校的學助往下一頁這個就是教育部那時候出來的大概在8年前那些大學的研究生他有領錢所以呢學校就請他工作研究室的助理會幫學校做行政工作後來教育部呢有研究生反映啊我領你6000領你8000我是研究生碩博生結果呢我的勞動權利在哪裡"},{"start":10416.029,"end":10434.265,"text":"勞動部那時候出面了就有一個專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障的指導原則這是勞動部出面的有沒有還沒印象在座的官員有嘛對不對所以那時候分成什麼分成兩種一種叫學習型的一種叫行政型的學習型的他的參與是基於學習的目的"},{"start":10434.966,"end":10447.426,"text":"但是如果是行政型的不是學習型的他就比較強調他勞動的部分給予他保障學校對這兩種型的助理學生助理是給予不同的條件有沒有印象"},{"start":10449.377,"end":10450.037,"text":"最後一題"},{"start":10477.072,"end":10479.934,"text":"謝謝總嘉賓委員接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":10505.615,"end":10508.753,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊一發言 邀請部長請何部長"},{"start":10513.13,"end":10541.117,"text":"委員好部長好我們來針對於缺工的問題來討論因為我們看到未來9年那麼我們所迎來的是378萬人的這個退休那也是史上到目前為止最大的退休潮的逼近那又加上少子化那導致我們整個在製造交通營建服務跟醫療等等的各行業普遍的在缺工尤其特別是3K"},{"start":10542.037,"end":10559.99,"text":"所謂的3K是什麼危險辛苦骯髒這3K的辛苦特定製造製成的產業缺工特別特別的嚴重那所以呢我們又看到你的統計在11年來15到29歲的青年勞動力人口是減少了16萬人而國防會推估我們臺灣勞動力人口缺口會在2030年會達到"},{"start":10569.336,"end":10587.714,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他不僅會影響到我們整個的就業市場影響到經濟的一個衝擊所以本期要在這邊請教部長賴清德總統在2017年的時候他擔任行政院長有一句口號讓我很很撼動他曾經提出了流財攬財還有什麼"},{"start":10590.296,"end":10590.496,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":10615.604,"end":10634.65,"text":"市委員我想今天的報告案我們也呈現出說在這裡面其實最缺的是中階技術人力對那怎麼辦你怎麼因應委員我們現在在本土的中階技術人才培育上面也希望能夠強化學訓用的跟教育部經濟部一起來整合這三方的這樣子的"},{"start":10639.332,"end":10641.854,"text":"你剛才所做的回答我相信如果以目前你現在所做的書面資料跟回答"},{"start":10656.966,"end":10674.367,"text":"你的答案還是一樣一個字就是山越來越低越來越低他不是流他不是藍他不是玉所以我希望你還是針對目前我們所面臨到的這一切困境你再去做一個精準的一個盤點到底要怎麼做"},{"start":10674.887,"end":10692.039,"text":"好不好?到底要怎麼做?因為你剛剛針對本土的我們目前就是這樣做數字就是不好看那你剛剛要提到的一個外籍的部分我繼續來跟你討論因為我緊張這一個外籍的你如果所有的政策都依照這樣子那我們台灣的國力要怎麼辦?"},{"start":10692.819,"end":10710.759,"text":"待會我們繼續來討論那所以我用你實質目前在做的我們在去年因應旅宿還有餐飲這都最堅強的在這樣的情況之下你推出了義後改善缺工擴大就業方案對不對你推出了從勞工端"},{"start":10711.46,"end":10730.35,"text":"及顧主端來找手協助受疫情衝擊的造成疫後缺工的產業來補食人力。到目前為止,到今年6月底,你協助了2900人來就業。所以本席要在這邊請教,你勞動部對這個數字你滿意嗎?"},{"start":10733.711,"end":10760.694,"text":"這當然是偏低偏低嘛那為什麼會偏低是政策錯誤還是執行無力還是社會面向不夠還是怎麼樣因為既然連你自己推出的政策你都認為是偏低那我要再繼續跟你討論因為你願意承認你這個政策的執行率是不到位的所以在這樣的情況之下你要如何的來提高就業率你針對於缺工你還有什麼方案"},{"start":10761.394,"end":10777.829,"text":"你現在所提出在做的你認為是偏低那怎麼辦專案來做到偏低那怎麼辦呢我以為你是只針對旅宿餐廳對對對也是因為這樣所以我們又擴大開放的橋外生可以來從事旅宿業的中階工作請你在精準方案好不好"},{"start":10778.73,"end":10793.858,"text":"你答案還是下一題本席要跟你討論的請你再就針對剛才本席所提出你專案的債輔導只有2900元是偏低的請你再去精準方案如果你的政策方案是不對檔的"},{"start":10795.559,"end":10815.11,"text":"對不對是不正確的那你應該去從內部去討論而不是都只有給我一個答案我們從外籍工因為你第一個提問我本席第一個提問跟第二個提問你都是給我回答這個所以我會中斷你的回答請你去精準精準你的方案告訴本席好不好"},{"start":10818.753,"end":10834.609,"text":"第3個我實質跟你討論從2024年9月份我們的失聯外籍移工的部分來台的部分已經失聯的80萬人那你比去年同期你增加了5萬人也是歷史新高近7年來最高"},{"start":10835.47,"end":10861.213,"text":"那在這樣的情況下你告訴我開放了資深移工轉任中階技術人力你開放了橋外剛才你回答橋外生轉任中階人力的業別國際勞動力勢必你不斷的不斷的在增加所以包括現在經濟部長告訴我們你勞動部最近要持續放寬包括了印度的移工對不對"},{"start":10861.974,"end":10880.463,"text":"所以換句話說本席告訴你如果依照你目前的政策你到2028年會突破多少百萬移工大關會突破百萬移工是不是有可能所以我們的方向看法是一致的所以本席要請教依照救福法的規定"},{"start":10881.864,"end":10896.256,"text":"蘭嶺移工每一年可以引進多少的總人數這個是舊法裡面規定依照外籍勞工聘僱警戒指標的訂定到今天為止你還沒有訂所以你就開了一個大口"},{"start":10896.977,"end":10922.171,"text":"大管道在這裡所以呢勞動部你是不是要怎麼樣解決我們的移工的問題在你必須要有外籍移工進來的時候你的相關法律的一個人數跟你要怎麼樣去調整這是目前我們必須要做的請做說明我們有定警戒指標了喔那我也一直在重申不能用開放移工來解決啦"},{"start":10926.533,"end":10934.426,"text":"那你竟然結論給我回答這個我本期問你的第一題跟第二題你都是運用外籍移工的但是我也沒有時間跟我講"},{"start":10937.578,"end":10962.733,"text":"不是好好的問題而且這個是社會面向的問題因為你這個如果沒有管抗也會影響到本級的勞工當然我非常同意到目前為止他要兩個禮拜做的事情他現在可能五天就做好因為逃跑的外籍移工全部加入在這樣的情況你都清楚這些事情你為什麼沒有方法去研讀"},{"start":10964.076,"end":10984.635,"text":"那怎麼辦本期所說的社會面向你都說是對那你應該要好好的應對你所認識的台灣目前的困境去做調整好不好你怎麼去做調整多久時間告訴我方案好我們一個月內給委員一個月內好不好因為數字真的很難看好不好一個月內加油好謝謝"},{"start":10986.701,"end":11011.002,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員那今天沒有臨時提案所以我們繼續發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席有請我們何部長請何部長"},{"start":11017.128,"end":11017.251,"text":"您好"},{"start":11017.83,"end":11046.861,"text":"部長辛苦喔那其實今天連報告也有寫到啊就是說缺工的幾個主要原因當然小子話嘛後面還有包含就是那個福利啊或是待遇不符合嘛好那我就簡單從一個小的地方切入喔我想要問一下部長依照這個職工福利金的條例那職工福利金的保管動用應由這個依法組織的工會跟各工廠或是礦場或其他企業組織共同設置"},{"start":11047.701,"end":11060.876,"text":"職工福利委員會負責辦理那我想要請教部長的是說職工福利金的動資內容有無限制有有嘛對不對對那請教部長你認為健康檢查費用應該由誰負擔"},{"start":11066.797,"end":11092.827,"text":"顧主負擔反正當顧主依照職業安全衛生法的第20條以及勞工健康保護規則第17條反正就是顧主要負擔但是實務上常常面臨一種情況其實我們在房間也有聽到就是顧主會要求或協議要由職工福利金的這個負擔員工的減減費用請教部長這是否已經違法"},{"start":11094.685,"end":11123.423,"text":"對嘛違法是違法是違法吼好對那部長有鑑於實務上還是有部分公司他可能是對法令不熟悉是好所以本席在這裡所以他就去拗這個職工福利金去負擔員工的健檢費用喔所以我在想這部分是不是可以請勞動部可否再發函公告就是再發函提醒對再提醒然後當然要提醒他們雇主不要觸法然後你們後續再檢查部分這個部分應該也要再再再加強吼好好"},{"start":11124.514,"end":11151.988,"text":"好那部長再來就是這個大缺工潮已經來臨了那並且從這個人口結構來看未來問題只會越來越嚴重嘛那個其實那個報告都有寫我就不再重複那現階段我想你們也是應該有共識就是說提高各年齡層的勞參率啊是不是對不對會是一個相對比較主要的方式但是根據這個主技處的人力運用調查"},{"start":11152.868,"end":11171.329,"text":"其中為就業原因中有五個項目五個項目是女性高於男性我想請教部長你認為什麼因素導致女性的勞產率偏低因為女性要照顧啊不論是育兒或照顧老對謝謝部長你分析的很好就是基本上"},{"start":11171.929,"end":11185.692,"text":"分別是照顧子女、照顧年長家屬、照顧失能家屬、做家事、身心障礙等,也就是照顧及家務分工會導致損害女性的工作權及經濟獨立的重要原因。"},{"start":11186.687,"end":11204.775,"text":"那當然這個部分就會衍生出我們女性的時間的貧窮財務的貧窮甚至公共參與率低等等的問題那所以基本上我覺得她的問題就是女性不願意這就是不是她不願意就業而是這些前半跟這些責任"},{"start":11205.555,"end":11221.742,"text":"那無法就業的結果就是經濟無法獨立他經濟沒辦法獨立那他可能會落入不好的循環那男性呢退休之後他可能有這個勞保啦有勞退啦但女性若沒有工作就不行嘛好所以簡單來講這是女性的困境啊"},{"start":11222.222,"end":11239.328,"text":"那部長我們面對這樣的照顧責任跟家務分工涉及家內的這個分工的部分是不是並非是用公權力或制度設計可以解決但是政府可以在幾個方面上面去努力分別是這個看一下簡報政府整體服務供給的供給之承諾還有國家"},{"start":11243.149,"end":11265.365,"text":"對於育兒有兒童之家庭的承諾還有公共化兒童照顧服務的普及程度還有對老年人提供的照顧服務這是四大方向政府可以做的部分雖然這幾年我想政府也是大力在發展這個長照或者是說0到6歲國家一起養的政策但我看還是有限部長知道原因嗎"},{"start":11266.809,"end":11292.196,"text":"嗯當然這個可能提供的服務他的可禁用性也許這也是一個很有不友善這是雖然說就是對沒錯雖然說就是含有政策方向但是實際執行上面還是有很多問題會讓很多政策變成看得到吃不到或者不好用很難用比如說今年你們勞動部推出的這個彈性育嬰的留職停薪的事辦計劃是"},{"start":11293.436,"end":11300.731,"text":"是不是成效是不是那個背後的概念很好背後概念但是實際辦理成效是不是很差"},{"start":11302.847,"end":11330.386,"text":"對 那是事辦7乘6的事辦單位掛鈴嘛對不對部長原因是什麼我想請教一下其實這個台灣的企業的特性齁他在這一種就是說因為他是以日跟小時為單位啦他就是替代尤其在現在缺工嘛他的替代人力難找啦那如果是像快狀的育嬰留庭就6個月的喔那個倒是成效很好而且那個男性的申請也是達到薪金"},{"start":11330.786,"end":11341.114,"text":"所以我剛剛說這個計劃本身蠻糟糕的對不對就是說成效啊是不是很差就是你們自己統計嘛報紙都沒有嘛對不對好啦簡單來講沒關係簡單來講這個狀況就是說基本上會去用這個事辦計劃的員工就是沒有請這個比較長的育嬰假的對不對那他又已經回到職場了嘛對不對所以"},{"start":11352.862,"end":11381.385,"text":"他們會需要用那種短期育嬰流子停薪的員工其實就是比較少數啦那再來是小孩剛上幼兒園或是到托兒所之後其實因為他環境的差異啦或是其實有時候都會有臨時的突發狀況他可能會需要比較有請假的需求所以我在想的是是不是應該要把這種短期的談心的育嬰假適用對象因為本來是0到3嘛我們應該要把它擴大到6歲是不是比較符合家長的需求部長"},{"start":11382.125,"end":11395.603,"text":"因為既然0到6歲國家一起養那是否也應該在彈性育嬰假的上面擴大到0到6歲我原是指彈性育嬰假擴大0到6歲可是彈性育嬰假我知道這個部分就要涉及修法"},{"start":11397.313,"end":11417.032,"text":"性平法對對不對這要涉及到修法這就是我後面要講的所以它涉及到修法我只是想說因為你畢竟你的政策目的你就是希望可以打造我剛剛說的這四大方向嘛這四大方向嘛所以這個修法我倒覺得是不是應該要可以去討論也就是去修性別平等工作法的第16條從3歲放寬到6歲"},{"start":11420.508,"end":11443.761,"text":"本席有跟其他委員有這樣的修法提案我是想要請教部長這部分是不是可以請開始評估說性平法16條的放寬年齡的事宜因為其實這樣子是站在家長的角度這樣是比較適用的吧我以為我們來評估好不好對啊我就是我的要求是說是不是可以請你們評估那請問你們大概要多久的時間評估兩個月給您"},{"start":11444.99,"end":11457.036,"text":"兩個月評估可以給你說可不可以這樣做對不對好兩個兩個月我是覺得兩個月有點久欸一個月可以嗎這應該是蠻快的事情啊因為我們是希望幫這個我們的這些家長來推動啊"},{"start":11460.828,"end":11473.117,"text":"我們這個社會共識真的也是要凝聚一下因為彈性育嬰留庭那個意見就很多了那家中育有小孩的也是希望說家庭照顧假可以延長或是放寬這個彈性工時但這個比較複雜但是我還是想要請教部長有沒有可能家庭照顧假也從7天放寬到14天"},{"start":11485.765,"end":11513.646,"text":"因為其實這跟沒有這跟我們喊那些就是其他國家不同這是有需求的喔你可以你可以有這樣的放寬可是委員指的這個家庭照顧價是顧是簡單來講我做一個小結啦好不好我剛講的部分就是請你們去一並評估一並評估好不好就是說無論是育嬰價或是就是談心育嬰價其實最重要的還有這個家庭照顧價就是剛講的嘛我前面就講的這些數據跟你講這些東西其實部長你也都知道"},{"start":11514.454,"end":11538.063,"text":"你也都知道嘛但是你就是有沒有再去更細的去做或是去站在他們角度去思考嘛所以你們站在家長的角度去思考這個政策所以性別平等法的第16條的育嬰留職停薪從3歲放緩到6歲第20條的家庭照顧假如果從7天放緩到14天其實我覺得整體來講他是符合現行國家的這個0到6歲國家一起養的政策"},{"start":11538.703,"end":11554.044,"text":"更可以減輕這個父母職的照顧責任所以這一開始我在講這女性的部分那同時也是可以讓女性的勞動力釋放的好方法所以你前面不是也說嗎你們就是希望各年齡層或者個性別的這種勞產率可以提高"},{"start":11555.045,"end":11575.452,"text":"這是我們我在提的這個概念就是這樣這是有脈絡的所以我覺得這部分是不是可以請勞動部盡速評估這個可行性而且也希望說是不是可以提報這個行政院的版本可以以示我們行政部門的決心就是評估之後因為我覺得這個東西我們就是站在這個女性參與剛剛前面都講得很清楚"},{"start":11576.252,"end":11602.354,"text":"好然後再來最後一個產假的部分也是啊因為我們都圍繞著這個主題在講嘛我們也知道現在剛剛前面我有說你今天的報告有講少子化是缺工一個很大的原因嘛那基本上少子化這長期以來也都是國安的問題啊所以我想要問一下如果你認為這個部長如果產假啦育嬰假啦家庭照顧假增加他是不是可以比較一條龍的照顧可以更好呢"},{"start":11604.865,"end":11629.583,"text":"這個部分是不是也可以並評估一條龍您是就是說剛剛產價運價家庭照顧價這個是不是一起進去去思考的我們並評估給您好嗎對啊因為我覺得這是這不是我們國家的有先例其實其他國家在應對小子化都有這個部分所以爭取這個產價並不是隨口說說之前有好幾次專報也都說我們是還有之前也有一份報告也將近六成女性覺得說這個運價不夠對不對"},{"start":11632.745,"end":11654.385,"text":"所以其實我也要說以往都覺得要對標歐美國家我現在也給你看一個新聞嘛其實這個連我們旁邊的臨近中國大陸都有感於這個人口漸漸邁入老化他們在推所謂三胎啊那我想要講的是這個連他們都在講說他們的全境產價是98天起跳那北上廣山大都市是98加60是158天喔"},{"start":11657.248,"end":11679.126,"text":"那廣東省全金是98加80是178所以我要提的就是說我剛剛講的這些訴求我不是隨便亂喊其實很多人在做這件事情所以我就想說如果你們這麼消極會讓我們覺得說你是不是真的沒有這麼想要改善我們的生育率我想請問部長怎麼看我是希望這個是不是可以好好的評估其實我們一起來評估好嗎"},{"start":11682.526,"end":11683.287,"text":"接下來請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":11712.191,"end":11717.79,"text":"請何部長謝謝委員好等一下我的投影片沒有出來"},{"start":11721.246,"end":11748.978,"text":"那我想就是說今天其實我要講的題目也是就要講女性的勞參率就是說因為其實在非常多的研究我想部長也非常清楚就是我們必須要支持女性她才有可能回到職場那整體的友善職場就會變成一個非常重要的目標所以剛剛其實前面的委員也有提到有關於我們的彈性育嬰假的這個事辦計畫那我也可以理解我們的利益是良善的但是事實上我們的確就是實際上只有21家的勞工"},{"start":11750.979,"end":11773.481,"text":"有來申請等於超過7成6的事辦單位都是沒有人申請的那剛剛部長其實也有講一下這個原因但是我自己從網路上面其實也大概google當然我也有收到一些陳情就是說我們當時是希望讓父母可以兼顧家庭與工作但是呢我收到的意見是說他們會覺得說這個第一個家退保程序太過繁複"},{"start":11774.562,"end":11800.545,"text":"也就是說因為可以領到相關的補助所以必須要去辦理相關的程序但是依據我們的事辦計劃現在出來了但是依據我們事辦計劃原則的第8點受僱者於參加彈性育嬰流執停薪事辦期間是可以繼續參加原有的社會保險並且可以依據相關的規定請領育嬰流執停薪的相關津貼跟補助那既然可以參加原有保險"},{"start":11801.566,"end":11826.895,"text":"這一點應該不會是問題才對但是怎麼請領相關的津貼就可能會是一個問題所以這個部分可能要請勞動部來提出相關的解決辦法第二個部分就是說我們有聽到家長是有說當他去請的時候可能就會被關切就是說你要不要考慮一下這可能會影響老闆對你的評價你可能會影響到我們其他同事的對你的看法等等可能會影響到其他人工作"},{"start":11827.515,"end":11843.623,"text":"當然我知道我們的計畫上是不得已拒絕但是就是有這樣子的情況發生所以我想請教部長就是針對這兩點我們有什麼樣子因應的措施嗎委員我是不是可以請我的那個調評司司長我們先來回覆一下那個加退保"},{"start":11844.601,"end":11868.771,"text":"報告那現在有關那個加退保其實那個並不是說讓他退是說做一個註記的通報因為他是預應留庭後面要關連到他的那個津貼的發放的問題所以他要做通報現在已經可以線上通報沒有問題那第二個是說有關那個潛規則的這件事情其實我們大概期中座談有跟這些廠商來去做了解"},{"start":11869.759,"end":11892.555,"text":"有些他有來參與但是他沒有員工申請大概有一個原因是因為他的天氣我們這是開放到比較低的這個天氣比較短那有的員工他是認為說他已經可以用他現在有優於法令的一些價有的用特休有的公司他願意來參加他是比較有意願的公司他會有比較優於法令的一些家庭照顧價等等"},{"start":11892.935,"end":11912.481,"text":"他會優先用了那個假所以那個短天期的需求不見得每一個人都有這樣需求那我想先確認第一個問題就是說剛剛是說要做註記嘛那我想問一下這個東西到底現在在企業企業執行瞭解說可以用註記的方式的之後我們的參與的程度有提高嗎"},{"start":11913.521,"end":11930.403,"text":"這個部分我們都有再一次跟那個所有的事業單位說明因為他通報的話作為一個註記那勞保局那邊的話就是會連結到這個勞工要給他這個育嬰留職停薪的津貼那我們大概相關的程序的話那個流程的話我們會跟勞保局這邊來去再更加的優惠"},{"start":11930.623,"end":11931.524,"text":"議員提供更精進的配套措施．"},{"start":11952.116,"end":11968.204,"text":"我們為什麼今天需要這個彈性暈暈流停?我們來看看家庭照顧假怎麼一個月請完?就是說如果一個小孩子在3月2日早上收到通報藏病毒他就會被學校請他帶回去嗎?"},{"start":11970.587,"end":11984.632,"text":"所以這個就是需要請7天那家長會各請3到5天然後如果呢3月11號恢復上課了又有小孩確診他又要停課所以等於他只要一個月內他就會把他所有的家庭照顧假都請完"},{"start":11985.952,"end":12014.464,"text":"所以為什麼我們今天會非常非常需要這個彈性育嬰的政策因為的確就像剛剛前面的委員也有說其實是真的是非常的不足啦所以剛剛也有提到說要去這個性平法的第16條去修法因為其實到3到6歲這一塊現在目前是沒有被寒跨的可是其實幼兒園停課的規定是寒跨到6歲所以這個部分剛有提供提供說會提供給前面的委員這個報告也希望可以到時候一併提供給我那再來第二個部分啊"},{"start":12017.37,"end":12019.476,"text":"說:「抱歉,我們下夜好了,直接下,因為時間可能會不夠。」"},{"start":12020.523,"end":12045.578,"text":"好就是說其實我們看到非常多的報告不管是中研院或是經濟學院今年都一直在講說如何去講究這個生育率那其實他們都在講就是說撒錢不一定有用因為觀念轉變年輕的女孩子不願意再拼命生育小孩現金補貼對於中低收入戶的家庭還是有一些短暫的適應力但是中等家庭比起育兒更重視自己家庭的生活所以我們就發現說其實從各國的研究來看"},{"start":12046.599,"end":12070.266,"text":"撒錢不一定有用但是撒錢還是非常需要那同時還有一件事情也非常非常重要就是說我們從北歐的一個觀點一個成果來看他其實有做一個1980年代他提出了一個相關友善的措施也就是一個產假他總共一年有480天的親子假"},{"start":12071.466,"end":12098.442,"text":"他可以猜成月周日甚至小時來使用來結合一個更完善的兒童托育的政策所以出生率開始有小幅度的上升那其實我也想分享一個我們台灣的產價很少這件事情我想已經是這麼多年來有非常多的倡議團體一直不停的在爭取但是我們真的是太少了因為相比剛講的中國14週日本14週韓國90天新加坡甚至到16週我們這個8週的部分是不是還有可能可以來去提升"},{"start":12099.122,"end":12119.349,"text":"因為其實可以讓女性可以得到一個更好的一個休息的品質那更好的去支持她那這樣子未來才有可能有機會有機會去提升我們的生育率才有可能有機會去讓我們有更多的小孩這個部分是不是也可以一起來去思考呢提升我們的產價的部分"},{"start":12120.526,"end":12120.546,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":12139.676,"end":12140.377,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長。請何部長。"},{"start":12167.116,"end":12192.102,"text":"委員好部長好今天早上我有看到工商時報有一則新聞標題就是為了今天勞動部的業報我們的缺工專報那您提到說解決缺工要對症下藥不能只靠開放移工壓抑勞動條件等等我覺得您講的很有道理因為跟我心裡想的也一樣那為什麼我這樣說我們來看一下"},{"start":12194.463,"end":12206.767,"text":"主計總署一百一十二年的人力資源調查我們可以看到原住民族的勞動力參與率跟全體國人的平均看一下64.1%對59.2%"},{"start":12211.889,"end":12232.102,"text":"我可以說2.5%的原住民族人對於我國的勞動其實是很有貢獻的那我們進一步來看他說原住民從事的前五大行業營建製造餐飲住宿批發零售醫療保健及社工服務"},{"start":12233.223,"end":12248.401,"text":"尤其是營建工程原住民的參與率是18.01%高於全體國人的7.99%那相對的我們也來看一下我們提出的勞動部的專報裡面他說產業缺工的概況"},{"start":12252.766,"end":12269.516,"text":"製造業批發零售營建工程住宿餐飲醫療保健系社會工作服務業部長你看到這邊會不會覺得怎麼恰恰原住民從事的前五大行業跟我們勞動部說的缺工的五大"},{"start":12270.376,"end":12297.902,"text":"好像一模一樣所以在這個當中我就是今天想要請教一下部長是不是應該針對促進原住民就業來去做一個專案為什麼我這樣問因為我們看一下勞發署他有一個缺工就業獎勵這個其中你看一下身領的資格第一項他說受雇於同意3K產業雇主連續達30天以上"},{"start":12300.6,"end":12321.455,"text":"我想要跟部長說其實我們的族人看得到吃不到因為他不利於營造業其實我們都很清楚這一些族人營造業的工人他其實是跟著僱主走他不是跟著僱主走他是跟著工頭走所以他沒有辦法連續達30日以上"},{"start":12323.752,"end":12352.671,"text":"第2個他提到說每週工時達35小時以上一樣的概念他不是不想做工啊是因為沒有工可以給他做所以這個第一點跟第二點他比較類似坐在辦公室的那一種工作其實是不利於我們這些所謂的原住民投入的五大行業所以我為什麼要特別講就是原住民很願意工作對國家也很有貢獻"},{"start":12353.932,"end":12372.302,"text":"可是我們會發現好像針對他的獎勵沒有給他沒有給他那我們再看一下這個部分雖然如此齁你看雖然我們的勞動參與率就業率都比一般高了可是你看一下薪資薪資的差距卻高達將近一萬塊錢"},{"start":12374.203,"end":12396.437,"text":"所以我在這裡其實可能部長你已經清楚我想要講什麼就是針對工作時數未滿35小時的原住民就業者其實我們看一下他有將近一半的人他都說我有意願增加工時啊但是我們做這種工不見得天天都有工第二個這一些人又高達93%"},{"start":12398.939,"end":12427.022,"text":"他說原因是什麼當然是為了增加收入啊所以原住民其實是很願意工作很願意投入勞動力但是他們也很希望他們的收入可以增加所以我才會在這個地方就這個問題來請部長可不可以幫個忙就是原住民有這種工時不足非典型勞動的形態那怎麼樣透過這種缺工獎勵讓我們的原住民族人願意投入更多的勞力這是"},{"start":12427.962,"end":12430.724,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒您看到的缺工獎勵是針對製造業當然我們原住民的朋友在投入營造業方面是比較激動的、彈性的這個我們來檢討、調整看能不能給他們誘因"},{"start":12447.796,"end":12447.876,"text":"是是是"},{"start":12463.158,"end":12488.098,"text":"就是逐年趨緩然後現在趨於一致那也特別謝謝勞動部就是願意來催生公立的原住民族就業服務中心目前已經有6個縣市參與那這個部分呢其實原民會他們也願意漸漸的救他們過去因為沒有公立的原住民救福中心所以原民會呢有用就業貸金轉過來的就業基金他們有去辦一個所謂的救福員的服務人員"},{"start":12492.682,"end":12507.871,"text":"那目前有75名他們說他們現在是欲缺不補那因為他們希望未來能夠把這個兩股人力給他整病有更好的一個就業的一個體制那我也一直關心這個部分"},{"start":12508.331,"end":12534.984,"text":"所以我只是說讓部長知道一表達感謝二我們希望讓我們的整個救福的這個輔導的人力工作未來能夠跟原民會趨於穩定讓他走向制度化那也有一個就業保障也能夠確實的針對原住民來去做就業服務的工作媒合那最後就是剛才我提的部長也已經回答是不是一個月內可以針對剛才我提的"},{"start":12536.545,"end":12537.246,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":12568.945,"end":12570.708,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 順順還是請我們何部長"},{"start":12576.826,"end":12587.334,"text":"委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時他也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場"},{"start":12606.749,"end":12622.568,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":12623.689,"end":12631.394,"text":"說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售傳播這個直銷業"},{"start":12652.407,"end":12672.478,"text":"那再來也有一般製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看"},{"start":12682.472,"end":12696.235,"text":"你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料"},{"start":12712.162,"end":12729.297,"text":"一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的年輕人的求職裡面他們在求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作其實他們最想要的工作就是忠實報導的這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼"},{"start":12736.711,"end":12736.731,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":12736.731,"end":12737.432,"text":"這個現象是什麼意思?"},{"start":12737.432,"end":12737.633,"text":"你可以告訴我嗎?"},{"start":12750.53,"end":12778.303,"text":"委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個"},{"start":12780.592,"end":12805.192,"text":"嗯都是低技術的對這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個"},{"start":12810.436,"end":12837.535,"text":"引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動"},{"start":12839.673,"end":12849.201,"text":"看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同"},{"start":12861.811,"end":12865.74,"text":"你為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?"},{"start":12870.573,"end":12894.08,"text":"對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人"},{"start":12899.963,"end":12916.172,"text":"我想部分工時者非典工作者我們現在統計有80.6萬部分工時者因為非典還包括臨時性和人力派遣我不要講臨時性跟人力派遣我就問你部分工時者一個禮拜做不到30小時的人請委員指示"},{"start":12921.345,"end":12928.069,"text":"當然嘛請委員只是我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的"},{"start":12950.08,"end":12954.345,"text":"那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":12972.084,"end":12981.691,"text":"對阿 人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸"},{"start":12991.533,"end":13012.131,"text":"第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工"},{"start":13013.132,"end":13014.633,"text":"外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理"},{"start":13033.476,"end":13034.157,"text":"在英國有400萬人"},{"start":13049.096,"end":13054.178,"text":"全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%"},{"start":13066.926,"end":13080.732,"text":"我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來"},{"start":13095.226,"end":13113.757,"text":"當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒"},{"start":13115.017,"end":13132.869,"text":"我沒有肯定這種現象餒但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼"},{"start":13144.978,"end":13157.248,"text":"當然我們會... 你都沒有評估 沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後 你現在不提出因應的策略 你在這裡只告訴大家 我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞 外籍移工 這樣搞不搞 你的眼光要看在哪裡啦"},{"start":13165.595,"end":13175.517,"text":"那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":13177.998,"end":13194.816,"text":"我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題"},{"start":13199.796,"end":13218.168,"text":"當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個"},{"start":13221.85,"end":13231.317,"text":"四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者"},{"start":13247.492,"end":13252.496,"text":"年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想這是整個典範轉移的問題我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模式形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼"},{"start":13276.226,"end":13277.287,"text":"您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?"},{"start":13295.806,"end":13299.528,"text":"還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡你老是要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣你老是要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現"},{"start":13318.997,"end":13324.598,"text":"上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎"},{"start":13346.623,"end":13371.264,"text":"從ES123的求職網調查顯示．有高達九成三．92.6%的人表示．有成為斜槓族．同時有兩種職務支撐的意願．多於2022年的91.2%．更創下6年以來的新高啊這是事實．已經正在發生的事實"},{"start":13372.864,"end":13390.956,"text":"而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到"},{"start":13392.356,"end":13415.534,"text":"這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於"},{"start":13418.957,"end":13447.79,"text":"那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了"},{"start":13449.048,"end":13464.746,"text":"所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁"},{"start":13465.487,"end":13479.266,"text":"又給了少修工時又長所以他更不願意所以現在更缺工因為少子化更缺工陷入惡性循環很核心的一個業務都在你這裡工時、價、薪資"},{"start":13482.831,"end":13495.841,"text":"都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎"},{"start":13514.741,"end":13516.044,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":13516.044,"end":13516.225,"text":"部長可以嗎?"},{"start":13522.179,"end":13538.15,"text":"我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人"},{"start":13552.159,"end":13581.158,"text":"但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主"},{"start":13582.179,"end":13598.798,"text":"人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮"},{"start":13601.201,"end":13623.234,"text":"所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用"},{"start":13624.531,"end":13637.542,"text":"所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群"},{"start":13638.854,"end":13651.257,"text":"而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入臺灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來吃嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?"},{"start":13661.982,"end":13672.732,"text":"開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工難道你的移工管理政策法律面制度面都不用再檢討嗎?"},{"start":13675.885,"end":13694.74,"text":"我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了"},{"start":13696.221,"end":13699.683,"text":"我剛剛講說啊這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲"},{"start":13714.292,"end":13726.219,"text":"主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":13737.513,"end":13739.494,"text":"這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業"},{"start":13754.827,"end":13759.51,"text":"而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的"},{"start":13776.505,"end":13784.696,"text":"所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任"},{"start":13793.647,"end":13808.278,"text":"我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了,您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?"},{"start":13815.081,"end":13816.842,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員 接下來請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":13850.713,"end":13866.029,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請何部長部長請問全時職位缺工的原因啊歸納起因你可不可以跟大家分享一下有哪些"},{"start":13869.037,"end":13876.664,"text":"當然缺工的原因很多啦是請說沒關係就你所知的你所說就好昨天在參與這個會議的時候我也分析過包括我們新興的勞動型態嘛當然各個產業我們的產業結構包括他的薪資待遇跟勞動條件"},{"start":13892.218,"end":13911.47,"text":"還有這個我們的整個役後的全球的搶工潮這些都是問題啦好那我想點出一個問題我們大家一起來探討為什麼年輕人都選擇做part-time做兼職你連領時薪也不願意做全職至114年1月1日起基本工資月薪調升28590好時薪調升190"},{"start":13918.137,"end":13940.747,"text":"本席跟部長說基本工資就是元兇之一今天我要分兩個層次來跟部長來探討這個全時職位缺工的一個事情第一個層次明年起基本工資的月薪是28590元若領時薪制的人來而言一天工作8個小時一個月我們工作大概22天他的月薪是"},{"start":13943.328,"end":13955.516,"text":"1908個小時22天相乘之下是33440元對吧在領月薪的概念下正值的月薪是28590兼值的可以來到33440如果是你會選擇哪一個"},{"start":13958.74,"end":13975.433,"text":"是委員那個部分工時就是這個時薪啦時薪的這樣子的一個調升當然現在的幅度我們今年也有把它就是調整到月薪是同等的甚至稍低一點"},{"start":13976.414,"end":13990.472,"text":"這樣的狀況是其實這是因為過去累積十幾年來累積的成的的問題啊過去會想要幫部分公使者加薪過去的政策上有這樣的傾向啦所以確實時薪不斷的調"},{"start":13992.975,"end":13997.983,"text":"甚至有的時候調的都比月薪還要高對沒關係那你現在說到是這樣的問題可是我就跟你講114年1月1號開始我們看到的一個問題狀況已經產生了這個數據有這樣子的一個明顯的差距那第二個層次把加單費加進去呢"},{"start":14008.274,"end":14023.321,"text":"所以明年基本工資28590這金額是把例假日國定假日工資都納進去喔勞基法規定是工作時數單週是40個小時所以兩者都換算下來正常的勞工時薪"},{"start":14024.4,"end":14038.399,"text":"月薪領月薪的這些人他換算時薪以後是119元所以部分工作的工作者這個最低時薪190元跟這個時薪假不包含例假日國定假日"},{"start":14039.38,"end":14066.639,"text":"所以我一直在講這個層次第一層次第二層次拉出來講我們看到這個問題這個數據兩者若把加班費都算進去月薪制的時薪119元乘以加班的前兩小時1.34或者是後兩小時的1.67以及時薪制的1.9對不起190元乘以1.34或者是1.67兩者相較加班費更多所以部長若是你你會選擇前哪一個比較多"},{"start":14067.941,"end":14089.537,"text":"確實那個就是時薪的這樣子的一個他的一個狀況會不會導致部分公司跟零工經濟的更盛行對啊這是一個原因所以剛剛有委員提出數據嘛那如果一些數據一直在不斷的拉高不過這有時候是這樣啊 雞生蛋誕生雞因為現在就是剛剛有講嘛那個那個你現在的年輕人"},{"start":14093.5,"end":14105.748,"text":"但我們需要找到一個平衡點我不是說一定就是說馬上要拉到什麼程度就可以抑制或者就馬上就回升不可能但是我要點出一個問題我們去稍幅度的去做改善對"},{"start":14109.241,"end":14134.733,"text":"面對現在的工作型態年輕人不喜歡我們要引入其他什麼樣的剛剛有說的可能是婦女可能是外籍移工這些部分我們要再多加的去做一個配套而不是說我全部的都擋住外籍移工而不是說我去忽略了女性想要從事工作那我們應該要加大力度應該鼓勵女性來參與這些工作"},{"start":14135.373,"end":14163.948,"text":"所以我覺得這些配套我今天點出來的是問題之一絕對不是問題的全貌所以我想說難怪正職沒有人做因為大家都去做兼職了因為是勞動部所造成的一個這個很直覺數字問題薪水的一個問題我想你們應該就像你剛剛有說的你有提到你有部分去做調整盡量把它拉近可是我現在所提出的數據我希望你也要正視這樣子一個問題為這群年輕人他們有時候是為了"},{"start":14164.729,"end":14175.13,"text":"這樣子的一個很簡單的數字問題他們只希望領到更高的薪水所以部長從哪一年開始月薪跟時薪就開始永遠會有落差你有去調查嗎"},{"start":14176.358,"end":14203.07,"text":"應該是2012年就開始了已經十年了十幾年了所以是不是由您開始來想辦法我今年其實已經都把它拉起了對你已經盡量拉起了再來我們也是會盡量要把它兩者要拉起啦對好所以對於我們今天的建議您是認同的是會去做改善認同認同是當然我們最低工資審議委員會也一直在討論這個問題"},{"start":14204.17,"end":14229.324,"text":"也是我們討論的核心那當然後面我想我從一開始就有問你喔不管是移工的一個問題那現在我們又要引入這個有簽這個NOU嘛印度的部分那國人都很關心不管是社會的衝擊還有到底他的一個時序表還有他有沒有一個概況到底是印度的哪一個省是我們未來要NOU最主要合作的一個對象這部分勞動部有規劃出來了嗎"},{"start":14230.475,"end":14255.058,"text":"我們已經有最新邀請對方的工作小組會議已經要開始了要開始了?你剛剛講的好像都已經確定了是確定要開始了?還是內容已經確定了?我們已經要開始對接就是工作邀請對方已經過來什麼時候可以開始?什麼時候可以確認?可不可以給我一個時間表?我們下個月他就會過來了嗎?還是這個月?"},{"start":14257.153,"end":14282.374,"text":"是你們要過去還是他要過來不好意思應方過來已經確定了12月11月就會有一個討論的討論的主軸就會開始出來了那當然社會的衝擊或者是社會民意的一個態度對於這個到底認不認同我現在有待溝通其實我們這個範圍很小啦初期是那個規模很小的"},{"start":14283.014,"end":14283.475,"text":"接下來請李博毅委員發言"},{"start":14312.168,"end":14332.893,"text":"有請何部長。請何部長。委員好。謝謝部長。辛苦了。我想今天的命題有點會讓人家很容易跳進。今天的命題叫做全時職位缺工概況。我看每一個委員問的都是"},{"start":14335.27,"end":14353.205,"text":"全職人員跟部分工時明明就在講全職職位缺工概況那原因是什麼原因就是說是不是有大量的全職跑到部分工時所以造成我們今天要來討論這個全職職工缺工的概況"},{"start":14357.669,"end":14383.877,"text":"所以剛剛所有的委員很多大部分也都講得很清楚新型的這個就業形態確實會讓很多人去選擇很多原因我不贊成去直接去說現在的年輕人會這樣做我比較傾向說很多原因會造成現在的這些部分公司的人增加那甚至其他這些包含這些"},{"start":14386.458,"end":14408.384,"text":"包括民間夜市123人力104等等的這些數據的統計的結果跟我們主計總署統計的結果確實有一點落差那跟我們一般其實我們在民間訪談所聽到的這些狀況正在發生的狀況也都不一樣那我直接講最後一頁"},{"start":14410.97,"end":14425.249,"text":"就是也很多人在講比如說餐飲業如果我選擇的是部分工時那跟全職的人員的薪水落差會有多少可能選部分工時的這個條件會比較好"},{"start":14425.97,"end":14445.071,"text":"空間會比較好生活會比較快樂那導覽部可能的給僱主的意見就說按你可能可以增加這些全職工時的薪水好可以增加那可能餐飲就餐飲費用就會增加所以整個社會的包含這些未來的生活指數可能會"},{"start":14446.152,"end":14467.708,"text":"越來越高等等的跟我們的一些工時就跟我們的最低工資跟我們希望雇主提升全職工時的這些顧問人員的薪水要高一點都有關係啦那所以說怎麼樣取得一些平衡部長我跟你說有一群受困的人跟"},{"start":14468.789,"end":14479.184,"text":"比如說台灣現在便利商店的加盟業者是有要求你加盟的時候你這個加盟者你可能要負責每個禮拜要工作幾個小時"},{"start":14482.369,"end":14511.749,"text":"那很多結果都變成這些加盟者都在顧大夜班大夜班請不到人然後再來也正在發生的我就碰到好多件加盟者已經必須要去跟他的這個加盟公司解約要賠大量的金錢為什麼他說我的健康還是比較重要所以開始有一些加盟便利商店的加盟者已經正在發生解約這件事情還有"},{"start":14512.729,"end":14522.515,"text":"有些咖啡店已經決定原本營業到晚上9點10點的都已經決定到6點為什麼其實也跟這一些"},{"start":14524.793,"end":14548.164,"text":"全職人員的工作時間不穩定全職人員的比較難找大部分都不分工時造成整個人員調度不穩定所以部長正在台灣社會發生的這些問題這些都跟工時都跟部分工時以及全職的薪水正相關正在發生所以小老闆們"},{"start":14549.284,"end":14575.196,"text":"小老闆們我講的是開咖啡店的我講的是餐飲店的小老闆們非常的痛苦那我們應該要怎麼樣去協助他們這是正在發生的事情所以藉由今天這一個報告我想在這邊大家也都有看到社會的一個方向很多人轉向部分工時那轉向部分工時那勢必有很多產業必須要做一些轉型"},{"start":14577.011,"end":14599.346,"text":"就是說這一杯咖啡可能賣60塊的或者是晚上6點以後營業的會漸漸少了那這些餐飲可能也會漸漸調有一些不一樣的這些轉向所以在這邊其實國人都愛去日本旅遊那我們現在去日本的便利商店最大的特色是什麼都是外籍"},{"start":14600.623,"end":14605.192,"text":"我的意思不是要外籍移工進來在我們就業服務法第46條裡面針對"},{"start":14609.293,"end":14631.273,"text":"外國人在中華民國境內工作還有第50條針對外國學生他還是有一些限制跟條件那我覺得這些都是可以進入一些實質討論的方向的規劃那也有很多電子業已經跟學校因為少子化學校學生也不夠嘛"},{"start":14631.914,"end":14652.449,"text":"那經由跟學校的合作已經開放逐漸有一些這些救福法46條裡面可以納入的範圍尤其第9項看護工作這個確實也是在整個台灣社會非常欠缺的我希望勞動部可以就這個方向去研擬鼓勵學校鼓勵"},{"start":14654.17,"end":14683.057,"text":"跟這些包含看護行業包含著便利商店小老闆們小餐飲業者們等等找出臺灣新型的消費形態要怎麼走好謝謝委員因為其實橋外生我們是一個現在很鼓勵的領域就是他的項目其實還限制很多我相信可以慢慢的去開放我們可以鬆綁更多其實現在橋外生我們要進一步開放他個人工作許可就是以後他可以做任何行業"},{"start":14684.077,"end":14685.177,"text":"謝謝李博弈委員我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":14868.148,"end":14868.354,"text":"本集完"},{"start":15354.537,"end":15371.481,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來請圖全級委員,圖全級委員,圖全級委員不在。請嚴匡委員,嚴匡委員,嚴匡委員不在。請戴世保委員,戴世保委員,戴世保委員不在。請吳春城委員,吳春城委員,吳春城委員不在。請黃修亮召委。謝謝主席,我們請何部長。來,請部長。"},{"start":15383.524,"end":15410.772,"text":"部長好今天從早上到現在其實很多委員關心的就不論是全職的這個工作或者是部分工時的工作那其實我們講缺工的問題確實還蠻大的那尤其是這個製造業製造業的這個缺工更大因為像彰化這一邊中小企業非常的多那他們也會反映就是說他們一個工作就像部長你們今天的這個報告"},{"start":15412.132,"end":15435.9,"text":"有6.6萬個職位這個懸缺超過半年找不到人那確實這個是真的在我們的地方確實是這樣子的狀況那很多這個製造業他們也希望說能夠聘請臺灣就是臺灣的這個勞工畢竟臺灣的勞工第一個語言可以溝通那第二個他也不需要去"},{"start":15436.34,"end":15438.382,"text":"一般的這個傳製造業他們第一個優先還是希望所有台灣的勞工來應徵嗎那非不得已的話他們就會在"},{"start":15456.563,"end":15479.162,"text":"請眾屆可能就引進這個外籍移工進來那我今天想要知道就是說勞動部也針對這個缺工的原因你們也有做一些分析嗎那怎麼解決原因有兩個第一個可能就是說這個薪資跟原本這個勞工的這個期待有一些落差那另外一個就是說工作年齡的人口逐年減少"},{"start":15480.763,"end":15505.07,"text":"這兩個主要原因那你們也有提出一些因應的方案比如說可能就是跨部會的這個合作機制啊有些媒合國人就業那還有一個就是說這個職業訓練培訓產業人才接下來才是這個加強這個推動中階技術人力流財的政策那我想請教就是說"},{"start":15506.212,"end":15529.121,"text":"其實你們提出了這些解決的方案那比如說這個跨部會的合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那這個還有另外一個是職業訓練培訓產業所需要的人才那因為製造業確實缺工的問題非常的多那你們有這樣的一個機制培訓的這個機制那到底"},{"start":15530.241,"end":15552.001,"text":"這個培訓的課程培訓完之後他真正投入到這個產業到底有多少那確定可以解決這樣子的一個缺工的問題到底有多少上次我記得我有問過這樣的議題就是說你們是不是有做一個統計那今天我再問一下就是說你們針對這一部分就是說你們做執訓完之後那確實投入這個產業"},{"start":15553.642,"end":15565.068,"text":"也解決了少部分的這個缺工的議題這個問題那你們到底有沒有做一個統計有委員那個我們製造業的部分去年訓練10242人訓後就業率有82%到9月今年9月底有訓練到8366人是那像營建業的部分去年訓練3920人"},{"start":15583.118,"end":15583.478,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":15606.017,"end":15632.192,"text":"為什麼地方尤其是製造業製造業缺工的這個議題真的是很多企業他們在反映就是缺工嗎就是缺工所以我也知道就是說你們在地方都有做這樣的一個培訓執訓的一個課程那照剛剛部長講的投入投入到職場的也有七八十百分之七八十那算也也不低啦那為什麼還是有"},{"start":15633.976,"end":15659.541,"text":"不夠啦。就是還不夠。對啊。所以就是說畢竟真的少子化啦。就缺工的這個議題。對。這個真的整體的人還是少的嘛。整體的人少了說真的我們就算訓練再多投入再多那個整體的供給可能確實還是不夠的。那就是我們講的就是說好那供給不夠缺工這個議題應該"},{"start":15662.001,"end":15689.221,"text":"從一開始我們就一直在討論這個缺工的議題嘛齁那這個也是勞動部應該要這個積極去解決的問題那我想請 委員跟您報告喔那個彰化地區向我們工業區廠商聯合會我們跟他們溝通他也是我們最低工資審議委員我們跟他溝通非常密切他們也是有在反映所以我們現在也會針對我們所謂的3K5極致啦這個禁用比例40%"},{"start":15690.882,"end":15699.488,"text":"有沒有可能有一些調整?我們這個已經有跟他們密切的溝通討論會檢討調整第三個你們有說加強推動中階技術人才的這個留任的政策"},{"start":15709.514,"end":15729.394,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":15730.635,"end":15743.24,"text":"初步我看到從事旅宿業．可能就是房屋、清潔、訂房、接待．餐廳外廠的工作．初次受聘的薪資門檻為3萬．續聘是3.3萬．之前部長也在這邊有講說．3萬或3.1萬、3萬1千．這個算是低薪．"},{"start":15755.606,"end":15774.928,"text":"上次部長有這樣講,那如果說我們針對畢業的橋外生從事這樣的工作,就是說可能一開始是初次受聘就3萬,然後續聘是3萬3,那部長你覺得這樣子的話可以確實讓這些人願意留下來嗎?"},{"start":15777.24,"end":15798.449,"text":"這確實是問題啊 這個也是為什麼我即便開放的喬外森是這樣中間人才來從事 那喬外森也是會挑工作啦 是對那這樣的薪資又因足不足以又使他們留下來是問號 這也是呂樹葉的問題 因為他在怎麼他們開出來的薪資水準就是這樣 是對那這個是主管機關"},{"start":15799.77,"end":15800.331,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況"},{"start":15815.186,"end":15836.598,"text":"比如說協調也好或是溝通也好我覺得如果說照這樣子的話你剛剛講的這三個機制可能跨部會合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那第二個就是說這個做職業培訓職業訓練那第三可能就是中階技術人才的這個留才"},{"start":15837.478,"end":15867.063,"text":"那如果說你中階技術人員的這個流財的政策如果他開出來的薪資還是這樣的話我不認為他們會願意留在這邊工作就像剛剛很多委員講的可能我們鄰近的國家他開出來的薪資都比臺灣的薪資還好那怎麼樣讓這些人願意留下來我覺得這是一個很重要也很大的一個問題我跟委員報告就是含包括義後缺工獎勵方案為什麼這個質詢率不好也是這個因素"},{"start":15867.683,"end":15892.424,"text":"所以我們就是說希望企業界要有一個認知這已經不是低薪的時代了無論是對本國人或者是移工都是一樣的因為我們也在跟國際搶工這是最大的問題的根源很像喬外森就像您剛剛講的陳孫林剛剛講的但也是在國際搶工潮裡面他們都是可以留向任何國家的未必要留在我們這裡"},{"start":15893.345,"end":15917.101,"text":"所以我覺得這應該也要去跨部會或者是也要跟這個企業或者是跟工業區竟然就是說我覺得我們部會可能也要跟地方的工會或者是地方的這些場協會可能也要有一些溝通啦對對或者是商總我覺得應該要有一些溝通他們應該也要如果有賺錢應該也要願意跟所有的勞工一起分享"},{"start":15918.402,"end":15938.801,"text":"最後一個我想請教就是昨天院長在那個院會的時候因為有委員質詢那有特別提到就是說這個家庭幫傭這個議題我想請教部長就是說昨天我聽到院長有說這個可能在年底的時候會"},{"start":15940.883,"end":15960.635,"text":"可能會做一個決定那我想請教就是說針對我們講的說第一個要優先媒合這個國人就業那再來才是如果真的缺工可能就是開放移工或者是其他的這個政策那我想請教關於這個家庭幫傭"},{"start":15964.497,"end":15991.887,"text":"家庭幫庸他未來如果說你們開放之後那是不是也要協助這個育兒的這種工作可能就是照顧孩子小孩的這樣的一個工作我覺得這個可能這個議題可能會牽涉到很多層面那這個議題也是很多人關心的對委員就是家庭幫庸開放的議題我們必須衛福部一起來處理那衛福部在這方面目前都還很保留"},{"start":15992.347,"end":16005.164,"text":"是,那當然...如果照昨天院長這樣講的話他講的好像是說這個年底就會有一個決定那我現在已經10月底了"},{"start":16006.178,"end":16032.735,"text":"距離年年底可能剩下一兩個月我相信你們應該也自己有一個副案那我想要提醒就是說這個議題會牽涉到的層面非常的多那可能就是保姆的這個我們國人的保姆的就業機會可能也會受到衝擊所以我覺得說這個如果要做一個決定應該也要很審慎的去做一個評估是這我們必須跨部會溝通是而且確實成如您講的這個我們"},{"start":16034.796,"end":16034.996,"text":"當然當然,謝謝委員"},{"start":16076.109,"end":16103.586,"text":"接下來請葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言好謝謝昭偉我就接續昭偉剛剛徐育群部長的題目好不好何部長部長剛剛也答呼黃少偉講的台灣的環境現在早已不是這個低薪的環境那勞動部知道這個狀況那勞動部要扮演的"},{"start":16105.309,"end":16119.984,"text":"去改善這樣的一個情況的角色會著重在什麼地方?委員就是說應缺工當然我們在報告裡面也提就是說包括"},{"start":16121.178,"end":16139.53,"text":"提醒培訓國人然後這一個引進外籍大概不脫離這些方式可是我們也必須去因應現在的整個勞動形態的變化那還有包括現在的產業形態的變化我們如何跟產業之間進一步的來討論怎麼樣才是一個你願意"},{"start":16145.515,"end":16162.392,"text":"你願意付出的然後又可以引進這個你需要的勞動力然後是搭配你願意付出的薪水所以這就是我們要在勞動力的供給端跟這個需求端我們要去幫他們撮合的一個滿艱鉅的工作"},{"start":16169.164,"end":16171.789,"text":"我還在消化部長講的"},{"start":16177.763,"end":16199.682,"text":"臺灣已經不是一個低薪的環境基本上基本上很多的很多的很多的類別啦才略別來講他也不見得有多低薪喔甚至高薪的還蠻多的然後包含包含包含包含包含剛從大學畢業的"},{"start":16201.224,"end":16202.705,"text":"在台北市的服務業平均薪資也不算低"},{"start":16222.822,"end":16223.323,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16238.079,"end":16254.149,"text":"更堅強的這個角色不過他還是會連動到相關的部會這個我們都清楚嘛那不曉得你可以看一下就是說這個是你們的報告嘛6.6萬6.6萬的職缺這個是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對這是勞動部的資料綜合統計結果綜合的分析"},{"start":16256.93,"end":16275.084,"text":"主席處剛剛部長有回問其他委員就是說他一個事業能力雇用調查的這個報告則是112年8月底工業及服務業的職缺數是在23.7萬然後他會叫同年的2月增加2.1萬因為他是8月2月8月這樣在計算"},{"start":16277.486,"end":16288.232,"text":"那或許這23.7萬的職缺就成了部長答覆的可能你們在統計的方式不太一樣他應該是不是就不是缺過這個缺超過6個月的啦您這個是組總的調查吧沒有組計總處下一張對他這個就是職缺調查"},{"start":16299.552,"end":16314.6,"text":"對這個是主計總署的調查沒錯對嗎我說你們你們是半年你們的6.6萬是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對那主計總署或許就是不是超過6個月的一個統計嘛對應該是這麼講他可能現在缺而已"},{"start":16315.94,"end":16330.385,"text":"現在缺而已但是你去年8月對照2月主計總署的統計一個表格是增加2.1萬這是主計處我不曉得你怎麼解讀這個那部長你再看下一個數據"},{"start":16332.587,"end":16351.245,"text":"103一直到112這個是主計的資料他是每年就這樣公布如果他公布這個數據是有問題的那就很嚴重了因為105是明晚開始執政那你看我們在105到109左右平均都在22萬以下"},{"start":16353.407,"end":16373.695,"text":"10月110疫情的一些狀況有增加但是到了11年到112年我們還是維持在23萬以上不是以下這個我就要請教部長有沒有機會有沒有什麼做法有什麼精進的作為可以壓低回到105到109這個區間22萬左右有嗎"},{"start":16378.337,"end":16403.206,"text":"委員我想因為歷經3年的疫情啦他這個是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在其實這個喔112年23.7那當然慢慢的也許他也有可能緩和下來啦這也是有可能的那可是你說我有沒有這個能耐把他要回到105年"},{"start":16405.488,"end":16422.304,"text":"我沒有用能耐兩個字來形容部長我是說有沒有想到用什麼樣的方法可以把他壓到22萬當然我們現在正是要努力但是如果部長要願意這樣努力達成這個目標但是你們今天報告又會被挑戰"},{"start":16423.385,"end":16445.993,"text":"你們的報告你們報告裡面寫這樣每年協助求職者就約50萬人其中在112年就協助服務部門僱用44.8萬包含住宿、餐飲13萬、批發及零售業11.3萬顯然這個老花署每年都有這樣成效但是你看那個缺工還是持續在惡化"},{"start":16447.552,"end":16473.008,"text":"報告裡面 寫得也非常清楚就缺工缺工的原因以這個待遇不符合期望比率最高這部長剛剛在答詢的過程裡面也一直提到那行政院總署也有這樣的一個資料就人力運用調查統計資料顯示失業者曾遇過工作機會曾遇有工作機會而未就業原因中以待遇不符合期望佔比最高62%其實什麼地點"},{"start":16475.489,"end":16488.473,"text":"對理想工作環境不良等等等比例還算是偏低嘛那我現在是現在就是說那勞動部在沒有這些工作的時候有沒有再去做這樣的一個統計他留在這個職場的時間有嗎"},{"start":16493.515,"end":16505.704,"text":"我請署長講好請署長跟委員報告我們一般就會追蹤至少三個月會持續做追蹤至少三個月以上對以下以下因為有些像兆福園這一部分我們甚至到一年"},{"start":16507.649,"end":16522.269,"text":"不同列比的追蹤的時間所以你這樣的統計數字有點奇怪我這邊有一個民間的統計數字你看一下他根據民間的統計大概約有25%到4%的先進員工他在半年內就離開了就離職了"},{"start":16525.197,"end":16551.306,"text":"這樣如果你套在你們老花鼠每年每盒50萬也就是說你們一旦每盒50萬不到三個月半年他就跑了就離子12.5萬到20萬左右嘛就半年內離子啦我們講半年內為一個週期來講這個是這個數據這樣推估如果統計起來等於老花鼠在做這些事情好像在做白工"},{"start":16553.231,"end":16559.219,"text":"我們來檢討好嗎我們現在大家檢討嘛 我想想這樣檢討就對了待遇不符合期望又高達62%部長講的臺灣就已經不是一個地心的環境嘛"},{"start":16564.972,"end":16583.43,"text":"他這個待遇不合期期望到底是雇主不願意去提高薪資還是還是還是從事這個職業的人他覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的這個我們不曉得你們有沒有去做相關的一些調查"},{"start":16585.629,"end":16596.634,"text":"因為我覺得他是要細究的啦他絕對不是只有單純說平均薪資怎樣怎樣這樣我們也要調了啊你看明年我們的明年最低的基本工資是28590塊嘛對不對時薪就來到190嘛其實你們都有在做嘛民進黨執政的這89年已經提了9次了嘛"},{"start":16605.257,"end":16631.928,"text":"所以我是覺得說然後你再看喔你們報告就寫你6.6萬的缺工數與中階技術層次最多占59.7嘛對不對那同時較高層次占32高階技術占32.7排序在第二嘛然後你們有一個叫做後續強化精進做法是要把橋外生拿來補嘛"},{"start":16633.288,"end":16636.009,"text":"喬外森本來是一個補充能力那你現在把他放在中階這一塊那喬外森就不會跟你講說心思不符合期望"},{"start":16654.208,"end":16672.666,"text":"他也會啊對啊我要跟您報告齁其實現在我們對強化衛生的政策已經逐漸不是把它看成補充他是已經把它當人才啦好啊我們甚至還要搭配國防會的修法攬財的專法的修法你既然把它當人才希望能夠把它銜接技術移民對對對這樣問題又更嚴重了"},{"start":16675.359,"end":16704.742,"text":"對不對待遇不符期望那蕎麥生沒有這個問題有他有他也有這樣的問題啊他所有蕎麥生可能比例會比62%更高那你們怎麼處理待遇不符期望對啊對啊對啊是這樣啦所以蕎麥生進來他會是做他這個臺灣就是說我們現在看那個產業裡面他有需求的高就是說薪水有一定程度以上的而真的找不到人啊"},{"start":16705.662,"end":16727.474,"text":"這個才是我要開中階的目的嘛比如像我昨天在我在服務業的那個座談裡面測會繪圖的那種技術人員他的薪水可能比如說四五萬以上的可是你的腿他就找不到人而他是需要專業的那這一種我就是吸引我就是用這種中階橋外生來希望能讓他們來進入這裡這樣子啦"},{"start":16732.465,"end":16748.676,"text":"你這樣打呼我 我覺得怪怪的就台灣我們就自己找不到了你期待中階這一塊從喬外森找然後你又不擔心他們有這個待遇不符合期望的狀況就沒辦法衝突衝突了"},{"start":16749.485,"end":16766.436,"text":"不是委員我現在有個概念大家要弄清楚就是中階的是人力他不是for低薪行業的移工啦這是兩個是喔中階的人力他是真的要來補人力的不足而他是一定薪水以上的喔"},{"start":16767.837,"end":16789.738,"text":"會有薪資門檻的 這就是為什麼旅宿的中階橋外生他還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上你如果是在臺灣的旅宿業都會低到2萬7、2萬8這樣子而已所以這個是中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力不足的而"},{"start":16793.092,"end":16809.297,"text":"所以他不會去他也會向上提升薪水啦我的意思是這樣就我的理解現在不要說中階連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高如果說你對僑外生有中階的這個勞工需求的薪資門檻的這樣的一個設定那對國人怎麼又沒有"},{"start":16819.332,"end":16822.596,"text":"我們對國人也是那就是希望要提高薪資啊"},{"start":16823.761,"end":16852.589,"text":"對啊你你這邊講門檻這邊是提高薪資那個那個做法上就會為什麼我們要限要要對中階有薪資門檻就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制因為他不是移工這就是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因因為服務業移工太低嘛你一進來又不是不是我們要弄清楚一件事情你對你對喬艾森的中階的這個部分有一個門檻的提高對不對那你對國人的中階的部分有沒有做這樣處理沒有"},{"start":16853.61,"end":16875.457,"text":"國人的中階甚至都會更高啦因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是時間的關係啦我們再來對啦最後一個我再提醒我還是希望你那個精進的報告可能要再詳細一點好不好不然你那個老花鼠這麼辛苦真的我感覺好像都是在做白工什麼原因這麼快就離開這個職場"},{"start":16878.177,"end":16898.724,"text":"是不是只有單純的待遇不符合期望的62%我覺得這個是可以討論的空間啦我最後再提醒老花鼠好不好你們喔現在我們就全台在講缺工趙薇今天也排這個專案嘛那你看老花鼠在辦理工作崗位訓練有這個叫做先顧後訓然後每訓練一年每月有補助1.2萬喔"},{"start":16900.525,"end":16915.973,"text":"對不對特定區域你又提高到每個月1.5萬我想這是一個好的政策力量善嘛你的網站怎麼又這樣特定缺工產業先顧後勸課程查詢馬上查詢兩則課程你又發言了八個"},{"start":16926.229,"end":16926.869,"text":"接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":16968.472,"end":16970.385,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請到何部長請何部長"},{"start":16976.15,"end":16997.624,"text":"部長好,我們今天討論全時職缺工的問題所以有一個問題我想要先釐清一下就是我看我們最低工資長期以來就是時薪高於月薪有沒有辦法把月薪提高到時薪的總和"},{"start":16999.545,"end":17023.179,"text":"怎麼算呢?就是10星乘以8再乘以22天來當作最低工資因為我覺得這個問題不解決全職的職缺缺工不會改善因為我用part-time領的錢"},{"start":17025.936,"end":17053.041,"text":"一樣的工時是比最低工資高的 這個可能很多人會不願意投入全職的職缺 這個部長有什麼看法?是 非常同意委員的提醒 這也是我們最低工資審議委員我們今年有很熱烈的討論這個問題 那沒有成功的原因是什麼?你們講很熱烈的討論"},{"start":17055.241,"end":17083.582,"text":"因為明年明年都已經公佈了嗎?還是有一定的差距嗎?倒是我們現在再慢慢把它拉齊啦。你明年可能要差到4千7百多。是就是因為我們今年的幅度我們就把它拉到跟那個甚至稍低一點比那個月薪的條幅稍低一點我們再來慢慢的往會拉齊這兩邊。不是"},{"start":17085.865,"end":17096.337,"text":"剛剛劉建國委員也提到就是求職者不願意倒職的因素裡面有超過60%是對待遇有意見"},{"start":17102.259,"end":17128.297,"text":"為什麼是把時薪的條幅拉低而不是把月薪的條幅拉高部長剛剛講的是你們討論的時候想要讓他趨近接近嘛那有兩個方法你們為什麼會選擇拉低時薪的條幅而不是拉高月薪的條幅"},{"start":17131.955,"end":17141.427,"text":"這個就是光是部長這樣子的回答就表示臺灣的要脫離地心的環境非常非常的困難"},{"start":17143.131,"end":17170.399,"text":"不是委員這可能我要再解釋更清楚一點這個是我們整體會去調高最低工資會逐漸的往上調的一定都是往上調可是呢月薪的部分他能不能一次就去拉超過這麼高這是一個最低工資審議委員會必須討論的問題也不是我能決定的這個要整個大家有共識才行啦"},{"start":17170.839,"end":17197.281,"text":"而他條：如果是那個幅度一下子太高喔整個社會能不能承受也是問題對企業主可能沒有辦法承受這個我可以接受我現在是說為什麼審議委員會有意識到全職的最低工資跟時薪是有差距的那在審議的時候"},{"start":17199.122,"end":17219.182,"text":"是把時薪的條幅降低而不是把全薪的條幅拉高懂我意思嗎?因為這個是部長剛剛回答的喔是是是委員我剛剛要再跟您補充你聊口誤你就說口誤沒有關係我是可以接受的"},{"start":17220.062,"end":17229.967,"text":"當然啦我實習那個部分的條幅其實是去掉尾數啦他倒並不是說我刻意去把它降低啦因為台灣的薪資確實是"},{"start":17236.284,"end":17252.038,"text":"是偏低啦 也因為偏低所以才我們今天才討論這個問題啦 是是是 按照勞動部最新的調查就是到今年7月底全國缺工長達半年找不到職缺的有6.6萬 是"},{"start":17256.633,"end":17278.161,"text":"按照行業別,長達半年找不到的依序有製造業、批發業、批發零售業、營建、旅宿業、社會工作服務業。請問部長,上述業別增才半年沒有辦法補足的主要原因是什麼?"},{"start":17279.929,"end":17299.756,"text":"嗯對其實當然他這裡是超過半年啦齁超過半年都一直沒有辦法待遇跟勞動條件都是原因啦一定都是主要原因好那對所以您去看齁那我就直接問那你你們到底有沒有解決的方案"},{"start":17301.818,"end":17322.025,"text":"我看部長在回答原因的時候速度很快那你們有沒有因應的方案?懂我意思嗎?因為你們肩負著全國勞工的工作環境工作條件等等的照顧這是勞動部成立最大的種子"},{"start":17322.945,"end":17335.188,"text":"包括職業訓練讓他在職場上可以一直精進讓他取得更好的薪資這個都是你們的工作那原因你知道你有沒有因應的方案"},{"start":17338.322,"end":17358.806,"text":"對我因應的方案當然委員就是我現在最大的困難我想是我們會發生在產業端這邊對所以我們必須要有效的跨部會整合然後看能不能把這個我們比如我們現在主動在做學校部長我的理解我這樣子講就是說產業界那邊應該要比較顧慮的是經濟部"},{"start":17364.12,"end":17384.942,"text":"是經濟部那我現在是說你站在勞動部的立場你怎麼因應長期缺工然後低薪的現象因為跨部會整合就是這樣子嘛勞動部有勞動部維護勞工權益的政策方向"},{"start":17386.636,"end":17391.346,"text":"經濟部有經濟部扶植並且確保產業持續發展的"},{"start":17395.987,"end":17397.908,"text":"我現在是問你﹖你們有沒有這一方面的政策﹖"},{"start":17423.371,"end":17431.476,"text":"是我們就是當然我們比如我們訓練人我們執訓人你們執訓人你們部長你知道參加政府辦理的執訓的參與人數也逐年在下降你知道嗎"},{"start":17441.121,"end":17454.074,"text":"是沒錯,那個疫情期間下降蠻多的疫情過了這一兩年跟疫情前有回升嗎?有回升到疫情前嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":17458.55,"end":17474.324,"text":"好跟委員報告我們現在因為疫情我這個就已經跳過好多題了是是是跟委員報告我們現在職業訓練現在就是說對於這個重點產業跟部位跟地方我們在合作現在訓練其實每年逐年在增加一直在增加"},{"start":17475.064,"end":17491.793,"text":"第2個就是剛剛委員提到就是說我們對於那個很多這個長期缺工這一個部分我們其實現在在應對這樣的一個議題上其實我們就是為他們也現在有做一些量身的訂做就是一些專案的一些沒有的機制那針對他的一個條件上我們也提供相關的時間時間的關係我問一個問題這個訓練增加"},{"start":17498.112,"end":17524.617,"text":"來接受質詢的人增加到底對於投入就業市場之間有沒有成正比?懂我意思嗎?你們會去做後續的追蹤嗎?跟委員報告我們追蹤有三個指標第一個就訓弄就業率第二個是關聯性第三個是他的薪資條件有沒有提升這三個我們大概都會有相關的評估"},{"start":17525.814,"end":17553.581,"text":"那我現在是問有沒有效果阿你這三個指標倒是下的不錯啦齁只是說到底來訓練跟他的就業之間有沒有正面的提升阿委員報告這個我們其實在訓後就業率其實每年都有在提升有在成長那這部分其實我們也可以提供給委員參考訓後就業率有在成長那署長"},{"start":17555.101,"end":17562.286,"text":"應該也要去關心看看就是就業了以後有沒有因為參加勞動部的質詢 薪資獲得滿足啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員接下來請陳英委員發言"},{"start":17587.464,"end":17587.625,"text":"委員好"},{"start":17600.219,"end":17604.242,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標?不是"},{"start":17621.109,"end":17645.398,"text":"你認為不是齁好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率齁他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%"},{"start":17650.801,"end":17679.398,"text":"百分之九十一點四好那這個這個媒書長我再請教就是勞動參與率的定義你們那個分母是什麼分子是什麼可不可以跟大家講一下勞動參與率的分母就是15歲以上的民間人口然後分子就是勞動力好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有沒有算進去"},{"start":17680.492,"end":17696.695,"text":"有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是"},{"start":17699.002,"end":17705.425,"text":"你覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎變化大不大"},{"start":17729.412,"end":17745.576,"text":"就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是"},{"start":17756.052,"end":17777.038,"text":"好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意"},{"start":17778.259,"end":17790.152,"text":"我要提醒你們一點就是缺工它有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性的這些差異那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能告訴大家嗎?"},{"start":17799.603,"end":17824.026,"text":"跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個工級勞動力工級但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變所以很多產業的屬性的不同其他跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素"},{"start":17825.967,"end":17845.141,"text":"所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難"},{"start":17847.639,"end":17876.879,"text":"跟文報其實兩個都蠻困難我們勞參率因為現在集中在大概以目前的分析主要是青年勞參率中高齡跟婦女勞參率那這裡面因為他的影響的成因其實非常多這也是我們在努力那至於說缺工因為缺工又會涉及到整個產業的一個發展未來他在整個產業能夠提供的一些條件待遇還有一些他的工作型態比如說現在外界也在關心是不是透過一些自動化等等"},{"start":17877.339,"end":17890.733,"text":"那這個又跟產業的主管計劃有關對你這樣講是都沒錯然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難"},{"start":17893.115,"end":17909.963,"text":"你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的"},{"start":17911.113,"end":17937.814,"text":"因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作"},{"start":17939.735,"end":17949.101,"text":"所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎"},{"start":17951.144,"end":17978.115,"text":"我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該有這些這些資料"},{"start":17979.736,"end":17997.316,"text":"那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也"},{"start":17998.891,"end":18020.583,"text":"也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說"},{"start":18021.483,"end":18043.853,"text":"如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊"},{"start":18044.913,"end":18072.403,"text":"那例如說像現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組"},{"start":18073.203,"end":18088.461,"text":"那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究"},{"start":18092.151,"end":18117.749,"text":"我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊對,我們就跟他們一起合作"},{"start":18118.137,"end":18145.378,"text":"那接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個淨零檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個淨零政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的這個就業機會"},{"start":18147.359,"end":18173.313,"text":"就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何"},{"start":18175.305,"end":18203.163,"text":"我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,我們也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":18204.684,"end":18217.512,"text":"當然如果就綠領喔綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦好看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創舉是是是是"},{"start":18226.417,"end":18247.085,"text":"如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已"},{"start":18256.229,"end":18266.353,"text":"我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益"},{"start":18268.094,"end":18292.206,"text":"我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的"},{"start":18293.646,"end":18318.246,"text":"好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解"},{"start":18319.65,"end":18319.83,"text":"我相信就是說﹖"},{"start":18335.447,"end":18335.467,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":18358.86,"end":18385.128,"text":"謝謝陳盈委員那今天的會議詢答全部結束委員吳春成委員圖圈及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本院會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九點繼續開會"},{"start":18393.96,"end":18399.811,"text":"謝謝我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道"},{"start":18429.037,"end":18429.878,"text":"請問下禮拜"},{"start":18456.598,"end":18457.62,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}