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MANGA"},{"start":946.454,"end":946.517,"text":"本集完"},{"start":983.096,"end":983.117,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":1169.019,"end":1173.114,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1276.562,"end":1277.984,"text":"太多人去審那他應該會加班沒錯"},{"start":1809.022,"end":1820.736,"text":"我們請組密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人一組法定人數好現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1821.752,"end":1826.453,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會議．第8次全體委員會議．事錄時間113年10月24日星期四﹐9時至12時23分﹐14時至14時22分﹐地點紅樓101會議室出席委員﹐林大化委員等14人﹐列席委員﹐吳秉瑞委員等26人﹐列席人員﹐國發會主委﹐劉靜卿"},{"start":1844.355,"end":1855.57,"text":"衛福部社家署代理署長周道軍、教育部政次章廖萬堅、勞動部勞發署副署長黃迎玉、人事行政總署副人事長李秉舟及各單位相關"},{"start":1856.994,"end":1875.71,"text":"人員、主席、邱超及委員至委。報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定、確定。二、邀請國家發展委員會主任、委員衛生、福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效。繼我國與雅林國家日流財攬財政策競爭力比較進行報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":1879.132,"end":1892.083,"text":"三、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事總署首長就我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家作法之比較暨我國參財改制之可行性．進行報告．並備質詢。報告四、讓合併巡邏國發會主委劉靜清衛福部．"},{"start":1895.386,"end":1921.995,"text":"社家署代理署長周大軍、教育部政事張亮頑堅及勞動部勞發署副署長黃盈玉報告後委員林代化等23人提出質詢。均由國發會留署委、教育部張亮政事、勞發署黃副署長、人事行政總署理副人事長及社家署周歐代理署長及鄉外人員即席答覆決定。一、登記發言委員處不在場者外,其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束。二、未及答覆部分,請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會,這樣會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1927.916,"end":1940.724,"text":"好,繼續進行報告。在場委員不到3人,所以議事錄暫不處理。那我們就繼續報告這個,報告事項,請一併宣讀。一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就我國對設置SRF電廠之規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響．進行報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1959.349,"end":1982.275,"text":"本日議程排定經濟部業務報告．及我國對於設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響等兩岸進行報告．並備質詢。那我們現在先來介紹在場的首長經濟部郭志輝部長商業發展署蘇文林署長"},{"start":1990.452,"end":2012.799,"text":"產業發展署楊志清署長國際貿易署江文若署長能源署劉振偉署長中小及新創企業署李冠志署長水利署賴建信署長智慧財產局廖承威局長產業園區管理局楊伯耕局長"},{"start":2021.389,"end":2045.92,"text":"標準檢驗局陳怡林局長經貿人員培訓所李浩喜所長地質調查及礦業管理中心徐明宏主任工商輔導中心袁瑞龍主任"},{"start":2048.676,"end":2072.824,"text":"臺電公司董事長曾文森董事長總經理王耀廷總經理臺糖公司陳立仁總經理臺水公司李家榮董事長中游公司方振仁總經理環境部省自修常務次長資源"},{"start":2077.958,"end":2106.441,"text":"循環署賴盈盈署長我們現在就請經濟部的郭志輝部長進行業務報告及專題報告主席、各位委員、大家好"},{"start":2107.441,"end":2134.459,"text":"今天承蒙貴委員會邀請提出業務報告深感榮幸以下僅就當前經濟環境以及本部施政重點而要說明進行各位委員不吝示教全球經濟在歷經疫情、斷鏈、戰爭以及升息、循環等挑戰之後"},{"start":2135.683,"end":2156.598,"text":"展現了令人鼓舞的韌性美、歐等國通膨壓力漸減上半年全球經貿活動呈現復甦OECD、INF等國際機構最新的預估全球經濟成長在今年將保持3.2%的這個速度平穩擴張與去年相當雖然"},{"start":2163.561,"end":2180.732,"text":"無二以及中東地緣衝突、美中集團貿易壁壘以及美國總統大選等可能增添全球經濟風險但全球AI需求依舊強勁"},{"start":2182.789,"end":2204.439,"text":"標普全球上調生成式AI市場營收預測未來的5年也就是說到2028年成長將高達59%今年許多大型科技公司分別投入百億美元AI基礎設施預計5年內總規模將超過1兆美元以上對經濟產生顛覆性的影響"},{"start":2213.449,"end":2233.276,"text":"臺灣是首波受益於AI投資熱潮的國家之一根據主計總署今年8月最新預測隨AI等新興科技應用商機持續熱絡以及全球終端需求逐漸回溫臺灣今年的經濟成長可高達3.9%"},{"start":2238.26,"end":2265.648,"text":"由於全球平均以及日、韓、新等雅齡國家明年可望續長3.26%為把握AI未來五年黃金發展時期確保臺灣站穩全球供應鏈的關鍵地位本部施政上將優先推動半導體、AI等信賴產業發展"},{"start":2267.681,"end":2290.14,"text":"並透過中小微企業的數位以及淨零雙轉型堅固創新包容成長此外為達成第二次能源轉型發展多元力能加速落實深度節能協助企業減碳共同邁向淨零永續同時"},{"start":2293.294,"end":2303.784,"text":"全力確保水、電穩定供應讓企業安心經營投資搭配境內關外、境外關內創新經濟發展模式接軌國際、擴大內需市場加速實踐總統經濟日不落國的願景"},{"start":2316.897,"end":2340.336,"text":"臺灣擁有世界最完整的產業聚落特別在半導體領域其中晶圓代工以及晶片封測高居全球第一IC設計全球第二展現臺灣在半導體供應鏈的優勢以及關鍵地位面對美中集團對抗本部將強化半導體"},{"start":2342.261,"end":2358.266,"text":"產業供應鏈安全藉由輔助國產設備以及材料完成終端客戶驗證順利導入半導體供應鏈體系提高國產半導體封裝設備以及材料的自主率"},{"start":2360.528,"end":2382.353,"text":"為因應中國發展成熟製程導致血價競爭本部以IC設計五年內排名全球第二為目標加速業者開發高算力AI、液質整合以及矽光子等先進製程晶片技術並先規劃建置"},{"start":2386.717,"end":2401.246,"text":"適量產線提供業者客製化的驗證以及市場平台協助進行新產品的研發此外透過研發補助資源驅動國內業者達到國際領先技術指標的晶片設計開發並引導跨入先進製程研發"},{"start":2411.26,"end":2423.422,"text":"今年IC設計業者採用先進製程晶片產值的占比將由39%升至43%AI成為全球重要戰略臺灣已經具備先進晶片製造優勢本部運用臺灣專屬開源模型"},{"start":2436.465,"end":2454.763,"text":"以及產業領域資料選定金屬機械、醫療、商務、會展等十項特色產業開發AI應用模型規劃產業AI導入指引據公版教材提供專家輔導"},{"start":2458.267,"end":2480.934,"text":"諮詢與政斷．帶動百工百業導入AI預計．在2028年包括傳統產業．以及中小企業在內的製造業．應用AI普及率到達50%．服務業以及中小微企業導入AI應用8萬家．並完成培育20萬名AI人才．"},{"start":2482.58,"end":2508.22,"text":"此外本部促成多家國際大廠來臺引進半導體、AI等領域關鍵技術與國內廠商合作研發同時要求外商引進海外人才的時必須提升國際人才的比例應要達到50%以上來奠基臺灣AI的人才庫"},{"start":2509.938,"end":2513.404,"text":"軍工產業方面面對新時代軍備的競賽無人機廣泛應用於俄烏"},{"start":2518.669,"end":2546.618,"text":"中東等地緣衝突機器狗代替人類赴前線偵查掃雷結合AI科技居家陪伴巡邏偵測物流運送等應用服務日漸成熟本部利用內需市場建立無人機等關鍵技術能量推動臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟對焦非紅供應鏈的需求擴大國際合作"},{"start":2548.078,"end":2570.935,"text":"目標在2028年之前無人機的產值成長10倍,到達300億元。機器狗方面,工研院已籌組TexForce團隊,整合國內法人、廠商研發以及技術能量,預計在今年底產出機器狗的原型,帶動機器狗產業鏈自主發展。"},{"start":2575.883,"end":2588.909,"text":"為讓我國產業立足臺灣、布局全球、行銷全世界本部持續運用經貿交流管道與歐盟、日本進行經貿會議強化半導體等關鍵供應鏈的鏈結與新南向國家舉辦產業高峰論壇"},{"start":2599.051,"end":2604.104,"text":"促成產業交流合作．進一步啟動境外關內政策．"},{"start":2607.808,"end":2631.794,"text":"針對臺灣優勢產業以大帶小的模式協助中小企業海外布局讓臺商形成產業聚落本部已規劃於重點國家設置籌備處成立服務公司將提供臺商從用地的取得、公司的申請、廠房的興建、人力的招募、水電的供應等"},{"start":2632.634,"end":2655.643,"text":"一站式服務．今年年底．將先設立一個服務窗口．同時爭取避免雙重課稅．租關稅等優惠．以及行政的便捷。今年六月．我率團防美期間．積極地促進各界支持臺美避免雙重課稅的協定．"},{"start":2657.546,"end":2670.716,"text":"來立法以營造有利臺商的經營環境為推動臺灣共同品牌今年8月在馬來西亞超市設立臺灣SELECT"},{"start":2671.687,"end":2694.217,"text":"的專區展示臺灣裕40個品牌、150項特色產品或需規劃在美國的超市辦理促銷活動以及在加拿大以及西班牙超市辦理快閃活動協助食品業者開發海外商機推廣臺灣SELECT商品"},{"start":2695.985,"end":2712.08,"text":"經內關外為著眼擴大內需消費市場．這是投資的商機．加速在生技、醫療等大健康產業的發展．打造臺灣適合調理身心、保健身體的國家．"},{"start":2713.223,"end":2741.452,"text":"本部推廣臺灣美食、食補以及養生保健服務．辦理美食競賽．並與九大國際會展提供配套服務．體驗臺灣特色美食以及高質服務．並提供參展以及觀展的國際人士．直接接駁、交通接駁、順道觀光．帶動百貨商圈以及周邊的消費。"},{"start":2742.745,"end":2759.86,"text":"令於投資臺灣事務所成立服務業投資小組提供專人專案客製化服務推動國際百大精品來臺吸引國際一流養生業者進駐形塑臺灣優質的消費環境"},{"start":2763.996,"end":2781.272,"text":"如何以更少的能源做更多的事情是推動深度節能的核心理念本部規劃扶持ESCO擴大推動能量提升大用戶節電目標並運用輔導獎勵以及導入民間資源促進用戶落實節能改善於2030年"},{"start":2793.025,"end":2814.564,"text":"帶動9000億元的節能產值．產業方面．透過推動EXCO發展．協助產業節能改善．引入低碳化以及智慧化技術．帶動雙軸轉型．推動重點．包括公營事業帶領示範．建立EXCO執行模式．提供產業用戶參採．"},{"start":2818.191,"end":2829.703,"text":"另外盤點供應鏈．以及中小用戶節能潛力．並成立專家顧問團提供技術諮詢與輔導．最後協助媒合EXCO 落實節能改善"},{"start":2835.216,"end":2860.471,"text":"在資金協助上以成立節能服務業專案貸款信用保證以50億元信保的額度提供每家ESCO最高額外3億元核保金額並透過發展保險業節能績效型保單降低資金投入ESCO風險來擴大ESCO服務的量能"},{"start":2862.435,"end":2876.83,"text":"針對超過1萬千瓦的能源大用戶．以法規要求節電目標．從1%提高到1.5%．並推動以大帶小機制．攜手協力供應商一起參與節能改善．"},{"start":2879.184,"end":2893.492,"text":"至於住宅用戶．本部已向行政院爭取擴大經費．鼓勵民眾將老舊家電汰換為能效一級的產品．未來兩年將完成408萬台老舊家電的汰換"},{"start":2898.035,"end":2921.855,"text":"中小微企業是我國經濟成長與社會穩定的重要力量長期為國家打造健全的產業供應鏈基礎本部持續協助中小微企業多元成長並透過數位轉型、淨零轉型以及通路發展的策略建構適合"},{"start":2923.656,"end":2949.67,"text":"小微企業發展的生態體系預計4年創造產值超過2750億元在數位轉型方面本部協助企業導入AI工具以及加強培訓AI數位人才針對員工30人以下的企業提供輔助方案減輕基本工資調升的衝擊"},{"start":2951.96,"end":2973.366,"text":"在經營轉型方面本部透過工協會擴散減碳資能提供中小微企業碳健檢諮詢以及輔導協助導入ESCO節能服務改善碳排在通路發展方面本部規劃擴大在地"},{"start":2975.757,"end":2999.355,"text":"商家通路並結合臺灣SERET等共同品牌協助企業拓展海外市場此外,針對中小微企業的資金問題本部服以普惠專案貸款以及租稅優惠配套措施規劃為員工30人以下中小微企業提供數位轉型"},{"start":3001.731,"end":3025.929,"text":"進齡轉型以及通路發展專案貸款與利息補貼強化資金支持中小企業發展條例已於8月7日修正公布提高中小企業徵雇基層員工加薪投入創新研發的誘因將有助於中小企業多元創新發展"},{"start":3028.143,"end":3039.995,"text":"在協助中小企業以及新創事業區域平衡發展方面本部持續與各地中小企業團體輔導網路強化連結交流擴大與中南部創意機構合作帶動在地產業創新發展"},{"start":3050.297,"end":3057.039,"text":"臺灣目前太陽光電總設置量達到13.7GW為105年的11倍離岸風電從無到有累積裝置了372座風機併網量達到2.93GW是全球的第7名未來持續推動風光電外我們將加速發展"},{"start":3078.41,"end":3089.217,"text":"地熱、氫能等多元綠能,多元的綠能、多元的綠電可以確保能源的自主性,尤其是地熱發電,臺灣蘊藏豐富的地熱資源。"},{"start":3094.312,"end":3118.045,"text":"本部探勘大屯山、瑞穗、延平、寶萊等10處地熱的案場收集地熱潛能的相關資訊其中大屯山佔台灣地熱潛能將近一半10月已經在宜蘭啟動國內首口4000公尺深層地熱探勘深井的開鑽"},{"start":3119.52,"end":3127.99,"text":"另外,從法制面友善申請環境．設置示範獎勵辦法．分攤業者的攤勘風險．並由中油引進國際生成地熱技術．建置地熱發電案場．加速推動地熱的設置。"},{"start":3139.676,"end":3161.146,"text":"至於氫能方面本部結合工部門與國營事業資源與國際技術領先的國家交流合作拓展氫能的應用並關注國際氫能的發展為滿足產業發展以及民生需求本部每年滾動檢討用電成長"},{"start":3165.617,"end":3172.263,"text":"AI帶動的半導體產業擴廠．電動車啟動政策的因素．預估臺灣未來10年．也就是到122年用電的需求．年均成長約2.8%．將持續開發再生能源．低碳燃氣發電．以及儲能電網建設．確保供電的穩定"},{"start":3195.512,"end":3213.866,"text":"為確保穩定的供水以及降低淹水災害本部推動多元水源開發強化跨區域水源調度包括推動科技造水完成鳥水潭人工湖高頻溪浮流水"},{"start":3214.932,"end":3237.081,"text":"逃逐備援管線．阿姆坪防淤隧道．以及征文南化聯通管等水資源的建設．增加全國20%的用水．另外因應近期各縣市提出之治水需求．本部已爭取行政院的同意"},{"start":3240.363,"end":3260.178,"text":"徵列84億元的預算．總計298億元投入防洪治水．搭配淹水感測器．以及水情影像、雲端平臺等智慧化工具．即時監看AI．辨識淹水資訊．精進智慧防災．以及應變能力。"},{"start":3268.345,"end":3286.01,"text":"今年全球招商論壇有12家國際大廠以具體投資行動支持臺灣與本部簽署投資意向書再加上已掌握的廠商未來投資金額將高達1,150億元國際半導體展吸引了全球56個國家超過1,100家企業參與這個盛事再次刷新紀錄"},{"start":3298.302,"end":3325.445,"text":"臺灣擁有全球頂尖的製造實力本部將以行動創新AI內閣的執行力壯大五大信賴產業協助中小微企業升級轉型推動第二次的能源轉型穩定水電供應鞏固臺灣在世界的關鍵地位期盼各位委員對於本部施政"},{"start":3326.645,"end":3354.888,"text":"．以指證示教本會期送請大院審查的預算案．以及相關議案．亦懇請委員鼎力支持．最後敬祝各位委員身體健康．萬事如意以上報告進行各位委員指教謝謝主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":3355.819,"end":3361.566,"text":"今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就我國對設置SRF發電廠的規．規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響進行報告．"},{"start":3372.931,"end":3388.519,"text":"2050淨零碳排是目前全球面臨的共同課題各國無不竭盡所有可能手段進行減碳SRF發電有助減碳除符合我"},{"start":3389.69,"end":3415.43,"text":"我國的淨零政策．亦符合本部推動能源多元發展．促進投資等政策．對環境保護與經濟發展都有幫助。只就本部相關措施提出報告．敬請各位委員不吝示教因應大型風化爐整改．可燃廢棄物去化受限"},{"start":3417.315,"end":3442.954,"text":"為協助可燃廢棄物的去化．並減少國內二氧化碳排放．環境部自2020年起推動廢棄物燃料化政策．此外為推動2050年淨零碳排．參考先進國家做法．我國自2023年也將廢棄物能源化．作為淨零戰略的關鍵項目．"},{"start":3445.168,"end":3465.234,"text":"而國際上、歐洲、日本等先進國家為了解決國內是嚴重的垃圾問題以又能達成淨零目標提出以固體再生燃料也就是SRF來替代石化燃料提供電力與熱能的方案。舉例來說"},{"start":3466.877,"end":3494.157,"text":"瑞典的米拉倫湖發電廠使用伐木業所產生的木材廢棄物以及都市生活垃圾作為燃料進行發電每年可以處理40萬噸的廢棄物提供15萬戶家庭用電以及取暖而日本北海道的三小木發電所則是世界上第一座專用塑膠廢棄物燃料的發電廠從"},{"start":3498.143,"end":3509.451,"text":"2003年啟用至今．已經處理高達540萬噸廢塑膠．累計發電量為4510GW．約可減少碳排415萬噸．SRF容易存放與運用．可以替代煤炭、焦炭等化石燃料．"},{"start":3527.946,"end":3552.44,"text":"．價格較煤炭低．重要的是．同樣的熱能產出．二氧化碳的排碳．減少到化石燃料的三分之二．換句話說．它是一項具有經濟效益．廢棄物利用極大化的能源．能幫助減少碳排放．依環境部的資料顯示．一公噸的SRF．可以取代0.86公噸的"},{"start":3555.148,"end":3570.683,"text":"對於SRF製造使用的管理與污染防治．環境部以參考歐盟最新標準．就料源"},{"start":3571.764,"end":3590.446,"text":"自成設備、產品品質、流向管制以及空污排放等進行全面管理並加嚴標準。相關規範環境部已邀請包含本部等中央有關機關、地方主管機關"},{"start":3591.767,"end":3614.482,"text":"及相關產業工協會進行研商．本部亦多次參與相關法令研修討論會議．相關修法也朝加研的方向訂定．將有助於全面管控SRF的製造和使用流程．有效降低其對環境的影響。"},{"start":3618.307,"end":3640.803,"text":"為完善國內廢棄物去化管理．能源化為去化管道之一．因此於再生能源發展條例98年立法之初．將經處理之國內一般及一般事業廢棄物．納入再生能源發電設備可使用的料源．"},{"start":3641.874,"end":3651.994,"text":"有關SRF發電廠之設置管理、廠商需依電業法、再生能源發展條例以及再生能源發電設備設置管理辦法"},{"start":3655.346,"end":3670.756,"text":"規定檢附相關文件提出申請．並依規定SRF發電設備所用燃料來源．需百分之百為國內一般廢棄物或一般事業廢棄物．並經環保主管機關確認．此外．發電效率需達25%以上．使得適用準購費率。"},{"start":3681.861,"end":3688.385,"text":"SRF應含塑膠類廢棄物．不屬於國際認定再生能源或R1-100的認定範疇．在國內,位於國際接軌本部已於113年10月23日預告再生能源發展條例修正草案．"},{"start":3703.455,"end":3728.768,"text":"廢棄物發電設備為再生能源發電設備．法律實施後．將不再享有准購費率．預告期間歡迎各界表達意見．後續有關廢棄物含SRF發電設備設置及其相關管理．本部與環境部合作．強化橫向勾擊機制與．"},{"start":3730.731,"end":3742.166,"text":"後市場管理以完善廢棄物料源經處理空氣污染排放及發電效率等管理與集合工作"},{"start":3743.254,"end":3765.977,"text":"桃園科技工業園區SRF發電廠因有入園許可是否有效的法律爭議遭到桃園市政府撤銷入園許可目前廠商已提出訴願並由本部訴願會審理中另外當地民眾對於SRF電廠所產生的污染也有疑慮"},{"start":3767.182,"end":3785.78,"text":"目前環境部以參考歐盟最新規定嚴明SRF加嚴的管理法規。廠商也發函桃園市政府表示願意遵守環境部加嚴後的法規。本部認為法律的正義應該交由"},{"start":3787.731,"end":3808.694,"text":"專業學者所組成的本部溯源會來做成判斷與決定至於地方民眾所擔心的環境問題應該由廠商以及環境部、桃園市政府等政府單位來加強溝通本部作為產業以及能源主管機構"},{"start":3810.106,"end":3834.026,"text":"非常重視循環經濟以及我國能源多元發展相關投資案件我們期待可以順利進行以創造產業綠色成長的新動能。SRF發電廠設置對臺灣廢棄物能源化以及2050年淨零碳排是有幫助"},{"start":3835.223,"end":3863.35,"text":"環境部以嚴定SRF加嚴規範．將可大幅減少空氣的污染以上報告 敬請各位委員指正視教敬祝各位委員身體健康 處事順利謝謝好 謝謝部長 先請回座我們先介紹在場的委員林代化委員邱益穎委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":3865.691,"end":3879.36,"text":"請問各位委員,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?好,議事錄無錯誤,那我們議事錄確定。現在我們請環境部省自修次長進行專案報告。"},{"start":3884.737,"end":3894.363,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好那環境部今天非常榮幸能夠接受貴委員會的邀請就我國對設置SRF發電廠的一個規劃評估以及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境的影響進行報告"},{"start":3900.586,"end":3914.72,"text":"那SRF製造廠的一個管理跟使用廠的一個污染防治是由環境部來負責那麼為了輔導SRF廠合法合規環境部從今年的6月起成立了一個體檢輔導團就會期務的一個處理技術"},{"start":3918.423,"end":3938.49,"text":"會期務的運作管理、空氣污染防治以及環境檢測四大領域共有12位專家那麼我們也邀請了工廠所在地的環保局由局長、副局長或者是承辦科長進行全面性的一個體檢經過三個半月的時間在今年的9月底我們完成了全國48家製造廠"},{"start":3940.291,"end":3940.551,"text":"提供意見。"},{"start":3956.901,"end":3977.555,"text":"未來環境部也會依據輔導成果在今年年底提出SRF的管理辦法提升管理法令位階並加嚴SRF使用場的一個空氣污染排放標準以及檢測規定相關法規預計在今年年底就會來發布有關於這個SRF管理辦法的部分"},{"start":3978.863,"end":3997.792,"text":"我們會來訂定SRF管理辦法未接的提升加強SRF從產源製造使用到最後揮渣產出的運作管理要求記錄跟申報增加CCTV監視以及第三方的一個品質驗證制度健全管理機制"},{"start":3998.692,"end":4024.121,"text":"那有關於加強這個空氣暖防制設備的排放標準的一個加嚴的部分那凡是使用這個實用廠的必須要來設置這個立裝污染物SARS、NARS、戴耀星防制設施也會比照這個大型風化爐來加嚴空氣污染物的排放值包括像重金屬、戴耀星等等那針對大型的SRF的一個使用廠"},{"start":4025.201,"end":4048.727,"text":"現有的裝設這一個連續自動建設的設施像SIMS那我們會要求來加強帶耀性前驅物質像易氧化碳、氯化氫的一個項目的檢測那未來環境部會用最嚴格的標準比照國際的規範來推動及管理SRF的轉匯為能的政策並持續來採取源頭減量"},{"start":4050.507,"end":4067.731,"text":"若實回收及促進資源循環等策略執行．減少廢墟的產生．並且來維護我們環境的品質以上報告公請指正。謝謝報告四項兩岸合併進行詢答"},{"start":4073.208,"end":4073.688,"text":"有請經濟部長請郭部長"},{"start":4102.759,"end":4127.085,"text":"委員長部長在正式進入本席的SRF的這個討論的當中針對我們康瑞颱風即將襲台可能進入我們再次的可能會再進入高雄所以本席想了解目前我們經濟部針對康瑞颱風的因應是怎麼樣我們開始要進入這個所有的這個籌備了這個即將啟動這樣的因應的這個做法"},{"start":4132.925,"end":4157.039,"text":"我明確地問,台水淨水廠如何避免原水濁度飆升導致無法穩定供水?這是第一個。第二個,台電的緊急備處及人力調度的資源又是如何?如果以高頻來講的話,就是會在南華水庫上面去加強。去怎樣?他會去,就是"},{"start":4159.163,"end":4185.136,"text":"臺水董事長來臺水董事長來跟您報告謝謝委員指針那我們會從那個南化聯通管調度南化水庫的鹽水大概一天可以調度40萬噸的水那我們還有侵水系統可以從臺南支援北高雄來做一些支援調度那我們高屏溪還有很多的"},{"start":4186.176,"end":4188.638,"text":"臺電緊急備署跟人力調度跟委員說明第一個事情是這個颱風看起來影響範圍會比上一個颱風影響大很多"},{"start":4214.997,"end":4230.298,"text":"那南部的部分就是基本的防災應變都做了調度的狀況是這樣我們已經把所有休假同仁的全部都叫回來然後都已經準備要做調度但沒有辦法像上次山陀 山陀知道說他可能就是在南部"},{"start":4230.859,"end":4243.796,"text":"我們這一次會在判斷上面會再稍微晚一點人力資源上會再稍微晚一點那我跟您報告第二件事這一件事重要就是因為它影響範圍大而且看起來暴風要就是整個暴風圈要離開台灣已經入夜"},{"start":4245.919,"end":4254.749,"text":"所以這一件事我們也在想這入業之後的整個搶修我們要怎麼樣做因應這一次的颱風如果真的登陸然後它的影響時間如現在氣象署的規劃那對於復電來講它很可能要11月1號早上開始才有辦法全面展開如果它是入業以後才離開的話"},{"start":4266.102,"end":4294.184,"text":"那針對這個部長那針對第一線啊針對我上次兩個颱風啊我對於第一線的同仁台電、台水、中油的颱風搶救我是真的深感感謝也感謝部長的調度那這邊我也要請你們審慎研議啊針對這三個國營事業在颱風搶救或者是相關的緊急天災他在搶救的待遇跟危險津貼上是否要研議提高"},{"start":4295.402,"end":4307.65,"text":"還是三個董事長?我請國營司來回答跟委員報告就是他對於搶修的這個危險的假期我們大概在今年已經十月多的時候已經核定了就是會提高七成好"},{"start":4309.288,"end":4337.177,"text":"來,我們部長跟我們環境部來,我針對SRF跟傳統焚燒以及SRF的全球趨勢以及我們目前一般的廢棄物的總量以及我國營運的現況以及本席有一些要求那本席是非常非常肯定環境部對SRF的推動那對於全球目前每年有21的廢棄物家庭企業的廢棄物只會增加所以如何轉"},{"start":4338.197,"end":4355.582,"text":"非為能這個環境部講得真好這件事情我是大大的肯定但目前的執行上當然是還沒有達到那對於另外呢我們在世界銀行預估在全球垃圾總量到2050年即將達到34億噸也會比現在的2024年增加"},{"start":4361.383,"end":4362.123,"text":"好,我們現況我們講到它的料源"},{"start":4387.858,"end":4411.196,"text":"這個SRF料源的廢紙、廢塑膠、廢纖維、廢木材、廢橡膠好,我們看上表這四年來我們的整個的回收量請看最右邊的那一行我們10958.84的回收一直到112去年的58.31%也就是說我的回收再利用之後我的百分之"},{"start":4411.676,"end":4428.089,"text":"平均百分之另外的百分之四十以上我把這四年當中沒有回收的我們回收率嘛我們的非回收率大概百分之四十一也就是這百分之十一將近五百公噸分化爐式去化不再利用了"},{"start":4428.709,"end":4439.019,"text":"好那這就是我們的重點啊我們SRF要不要去再我們再這個要不要提高我們的廢機物的回收率要不然就白白500公噸就浪費掉了而且我還要這500公噸我還要花電還要花油再去進行燃化"},{"start":4445.825,"end":4448.187,"text":"好 第二個呢我們的營運狀況目前你們也很積極的環境部做66家SRF的廠商體檢18家使用廠48家的製造廠好這48家當中呢其實都符合品質的這個要求但留下"},{"start":4463.46,"end":4489.886,"text":"這是本期有疑慮的留香的結果有18家未確實申報一家是完全未申報的那也就是說理論上最佳的狀況是我的48家的製造廠全部他的SRF的燃料標是要進到這18家的可是我卻有18加1是沒有的我掌握不到的那我本期就合理懷疑他到哪裡去"},{"start":4490.686,"end":4491.727,"text":"我必須達到一千度欸"},{"start":4512.305,"end":4530.441,"text":"所以這19家18家1家我合理懷疑他到他去幫助了生殖能可是因為生殖能的燃點太低了他發電燃點太低他300度稻草就可以可以發電了那我就用1000度那這會變成什麼我奧黛西就沒有辦法管制啊這是多可怕的一件事情"},{"start":4531.081,"end":4552.095,"text":"好 戴奧星戴奧星這戴奧星是世紀之獨啊所以對我們對SRF的管制標準雖然叫這個歐盟的原格但是我們法規沒有這個完備所以這個環境部啊我是贊同你們剛才你的簡報當中行政指導直接提接提升為法律位階來作為SRF的這個規範但是你的規劃時程我希望能夠明確"},{"start":4557.739,"end":4557.879,"text":"轉費為能使用場"},{"start":4575.79,"end":4589.102,"text":"來 這個經濟部要看了 這使用廠18家行業啊 這個全部都沒有用在發電用途第二個 這個使用廠當中有4家排代澳新的排放是不合格哇 這個太可怕了"},{"start":4592.384,"end":4618.689,"text":"好 所以這邊具體要求經濟部對於發會維能經濟部對SRF使用廠的建立發電的模式並進行輔導業者我希望有實際的時程規劃部長這您覺得要多久才會提供這是等一下您來回應第二個環境部您要把行政指導提升為法律未接我在這邊有三項要求你一定要給我納入第一個如何提高現有的廢棄物回收率"},{"start":4619.369,"end":4643.47,"text":"第二個,要求SRF的製造業者若是一般非自負的回收的分類跟分選提出有效稽查SRF的產品品質的這個機制避免僥倖違法發生第三,智慧化管理,全時監控不用再用人力啦,你現在要去查他品質好不好藍碟有沒有到1000,你去稽查的時候都有,你離開之後他就變沒有"},{"start":4645.672,"end":4652.274,"text":"所以就是全時監控用智慧化管理．SRF發電量與燃燒溫度的數據．已達成零代澳新的排放來經濟部跟環境部簡單回應報告委員我們大概要三個月三個月好那環境部對於你要提升這個作為位階而且先回答我你針對本期這三項在你的法規位階當中是不是應該要納入"},{"start":4669.699,"end":4684.465,"text":"已經有列進了就是對於這一個原料來源的部分我們對於品質的規範要把它當作是一個燃料產品的品質規範他也必須要去做檢測跟驗證那使用端使用場他有引收標準那使用端這邊"},{"start":4685.745,"end":4709.291,"text":"委員所關心的我們可以信使連線的部分全部都要去跟環保局連線而且增加了帶耀性的全區物質像CO以及HCL的連線因為帶耀性的檢測是必須要到實驗室檢測沒有辦法即時那即時的部分就是在全區我們一定會把它列進來那剛剛有講到我們體檢的結果有4個帶耀性不合格的部分其實這些廠都是"},{"start":4710.311,"end":4710.411,"text":"請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":4738.927,"end":4744.761,"text":"謝謝邱委員跟我換次序,謝謝。主席楊全英發言,邀請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":4753.782,"end":4754.102,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4783.041,"end":4786.804,"text":"是嗎?是。2026年你預計要達成多少?550億度的綠電。550億度的綠電。好。所以本席首先要請教,你的綠電來源怎麼來?"},{"start":4798.206,"end":4804.148,"text":"黃美花部長的時候你前任的部長當時所答應的是往後延在2025年原本要達到20%那他在下任之前他承認達不到"},{"start":4826.636,"end":4844.518,"text":"所以在2026年就延後那也說明在2025年是要達到綠能的這個部分是15%2026年20%是不是目前的進度也是如此呢是的是的那你剛剛所說的你有信心要達到"},{"start":4845.839,"end":4874.687,"text":"您剛才所說的2026年550億度的這個綠能這是一個您點頭那所以接下來本席要請教那你認為可以達到我們也滿心的歡喜當然我不希望你跟這個王美華部長一樣又是跳票又跳票那我們不希望那所以要再請教那你要怎麼樣分配因為包括了我們非常重視的中小企業"},{"start":4875.968,"end":4889.042,"text":"我們的第一攤話轉型包括了我們目前我們自己大企業等相關企業需要的包括了揮打我們也節省歡迎在這樣的情況之下你怎麼分配哪一個為優先"},{"start":4891.131,"end":4919.188,"text":"怎麼分配我可不可以請這個能源署跟你報告部長應該你頭腦裡頭會有這些東西因為你已經說了你會達到那你也說百億度你既然有這個數字百億度要給回答你的頭腦裡頭難道你沒有我們中小企業嗎你沒有我們本土的企業嗎當然有啊當然有請說明怎麼分配所有要做出口的"},{"start":4920.865,"end":4938.402,"text":"他需要綠電的需要綠電我們都是經過這樣子的統計然後來設置我們的這個發電的這個設置所有要出口的本身要告訴你的是中小企業不能把我們不給答不答應"},{"start":4941.755,"end":4961.988,"text":"我們的中小企業低碳化的轉型務必要照顧到是不是當然這是你答應的所以本席也希望我們能夠達成成功同時在分配的時候一定要照顧我們全面性我們的中小企業對不對當然"},{"start":4963.909,"end":4988.981,"text":"那就拭目以待那接下來本席要跟你討論的是固體再生燃料SRF的這個議題那我們看到推動可燃的廢棄資源燃料化這個是政府到目前為止我們的配套完整了嗎我們的配套完整了嗎我們的嚴格標準跟我們的監管法規到位了嗎請做說明"},{"start":4991.548,"end":5015.045,"text":"跟委員報告我是環境部的次長那我想這個委員關心的部分就是從製造端到使用端製造端我們會訂出產品的規範請教請正正本席的提問你訂定了嚴謹的標準跟監管的法規嗎是你的配套完整了嗎因為SRF在整個製程跟燃燒的這個發電可能產生的空污是"},{"start":5015.805,"end":5032.404,"text":"他是不是會影響的健康這些都是我們非常的關注我們也很關心請問你的配套完整了嗎各位委員報告我們在6月到9月期間我們做了體檢報告做了體檢之後我們發現了一些可以改善的地方我們也覺得有必要把這樣的一個"},{"start":5033.525,"end":5048.146,"text":"可以改善的地方什麼時候會定出來?請教你現在只有產品原料是歐盟的標準但是你在整個空氣污染的排放你沒有比照歐盟你比歐盟這個鬆了很多"},{"start":5050.469,"end":5054.232,"text":"會不會嚴謹請教會不會嚴謹請告訴本席會不會嚴謹你現在有訂的是參考指引對不對什麼時候訂排放標準跟加嚴標準因為你在桃園已經搞了一個烏龍選舉的時間強力推薦"},{"start":5079.181,"end":5086.307,"text":"竟然我們中央經濟部的推薦書還可以再收回由桃園縣政府、桃園市政府"},{"start":5087.458,"end":5110.291,"text":"又把它廢除竟然我們經濟部又又把廢除不准這個政府到底邏輯出在哪裡你第一個配套還沒有完整你的相關監管的還沒有完整尤其人民最恐怖最最怕的你的空污問題在這樣的情況之下已經搞了這個烏龍本席具體監理部長你站在面前要回答我會給你回答"},{"start":5112.912,"end":5132.839,"text":"本席告訴你我們希望在你的法規監管都要嚴格有訂定出來的時候你才可以全面的來做這是人民最卑微的要求請做說明我想這個委員你的這個指教非常正確我們是已經有這個排放標準訂出來"},{"start":5134.864,"end":5149.092,"text":"是有這樣定出來他說要年底啊 你說排放 好啦去釐清楚啦 你們兩個不要再不同調啦好不好好 那個環境部委員當然是有標準 我們是要加嚴比現況的標準還要加嚴當然有標準啊會加嚴 會加嚴 當然有標準啊不是 排放標準 跟委員報告 您專心的戴耀新"},{"start":5158.698,"end":5182.358,"text":"我們聚焦!請教!我們聚焦!你預計在年底會把你重研的標準定出是不是?你告訴我時間是不是在12月底以前會拿出來?好!我們拭目以待!接下來本期要請教!中火!中火的環評!真燃氣就要拆藍莓!"},{"start":5183.479,"end":5199.28,"text":"政府應該是如王美化部長當時所做的這個承諾,是不是?我想中火的部分,我們當然是因為減煤是我們第一目標所以我們要把燃氣趕快做起來"},{"start":5201.042,"end":5201.322,"text":"應該就是照承諾走"},{"start":5229.779,"end":5233.981,"text":"臺電董事長你要回答你告訴我時間點你告訴我時間點什麼時候拆那個機組要蓋好才能夠換這是我們承諾的對商場好之後要拆對不對"},{"start":5250.319,"end":5264.61,"text":"那個委員我先說我們現在提出來的審查是把機組留下6部來做國安備用的機組這您簡報上面提到的他不會運轉他要有特別特別的才會運轉那我是覺得"},{"start":5268.052,"end":5271.573,"text":"我們現在燃氣,我們都沒有反對喔!臺南的沒有我們的十分之一臺南都反對,就不做!那臺中呢?臺中我們已經做了喔!我們也歡迎爭氣!那你要猜沒啊?請教什麼時候猜?我們原則上就是機組要上來以後才能夠猜啦!我想說狀況就是這個樣子我想說國安的這個警備機組"},{"start":5296.437,"end":5299.58,"text":"本席請教我們現在承諾的我們預計全部商轉要2035年這也就依照立法院的決定那個是無燃無燃的世界2035年請教王美花部長答應的剛剛部長說的會照承諾我們這兩部你這兩部的燃氣機組商轉成功就是拆掉我們的一基煙燈對不對"},{"start":5321.38,"end":5322.221,"text":"你告訴我前任部長的承諾算不算?"},{"start":5338.521,"end":5342.224,"text":"告訴我前任部長所說的算不算?"},{"start":5357.575,"end":5358.876,"text":"就我的看法我不覺得王部長當時答應了後面這些事我們政務官有我們政務官就要照這個事情"},{"start":5372.708,"end":5379.372,"text":"他沒有答應後面全部都是這樣子做的我想說這要跟委員做報告請你告訴我可以討論但是不可以說這個是王美花部長就承諾了請你告訴我目前在中火在蒸汽的兩部機商轉成功會不會拆我們一支煙燈你告訴我這一點就好2026年底以前會開始拆好2026年開始拆嘛那你早講嘛那是現在的這個機制好這一定要這麼做部長對不對"},{"start":5402.285,"end":5402.686,"text":"好,2026年開始猜,部長是不是如此?"},{"start":5411.158,"end":5432.869,"text":"前二任部長是?我要了解一下因為前一任的交接...答案就是照剛剛台建董事長說的2026年現在這兩部燃氣我們蒸汽就是要拆煤蒸汽就要拆煤你點頭我們一定要達陣成功好不好我們共同努力了這點一定做到"},{"start":5437.256,"end":5437.436,"text":"請邀委員諮詢。"},{"start":5462.901,"end":5476.722,"text":"謝謝主席我先請一下這個水利署署長請賴署長那個郭部長喝口水以後也可以上來"},{"start":5478.818,"end":5478.998,"text":"請郭部長"},{"start":5500.121,"end":5527.839,"text":"就災的這些規劃裡頭．你可不可以簡略說明一下．比如說我們有一些水庫的現實的狀態．跟整個防台的準備．可不可以請署長來簡要說明一下．是．跟委員以及大家說明．那這次抗激颱風．我們看到它的結構越來越完整．那它的行進的方向也是會登陸臺灣的這個．機率比較高一點．所以我們從禮拜一開始就進行了防台的準備．"},{"start":5528.359,"end":5547.159,"text":"那這個準備區分為幾大項第一個是主要的水庫現在都已經到達滿庫的階段所以我們預先調節性的放水所以你們是什麼時候開始放水今天嗎還是禮拜一禮拜一就已經開始在調節性放水了這個是第一個部分第二個部分的話我們盤點了凱米颱風跟山陀爾颱風所受的災點"},{"start":5551.463,"end":5559.556,"text":"那這些的狀況不管是缺口或是搶修搶選都已經完成了這是第二個部分第三個部分我們在做"},{"start":5561.425,"end":5561.985,"text":"好,首長我想"},{"start":5582.058,"end":5605.087,"text":"我會特別問就是說因為這一次的訪台應該是全台警戒所以你水利署掌管全台的這一些河川、水庫等等所以我希望是不是能夠也請水利署的同仁再辛苦一點包括在今天下午、中午以前是不是把所有的抽水站的機組、設備等等都做重新的檢視一遍"},{"start":5606.187,"end":5629.732,"text":"以防這個萬一有大雨的時候這個抽水機不要有臨時故障的情況發生這個部分我可能要請水利署的同仁多辛苦那包括剛剛包括這個台電啦台水啦等等每一次救災的時候都是你們都在第一線這個我可能也要請部長給予我們的同仁多一點衛冕然後也請我們的同仁在這兩天可能要特別繃緊神經好來署長您請回"},{"start":5633.374,"end":5660.37,"text":"來這個部長我想接下來大概就會跟您有相關是今天大家在討論這個所謂的SRF本來今天應該是經濟部的業務報告可是看起來現在大家對經濟部業務報告沒有那麼大的興趣都在談SRF什麼是SRF這個我想我就不用再特別再解釋再說明了那台灣現在的這些所有的使用廠SRF的使用廠環境部有去做過評比"},{"start":5661.891,"end":5683.6,"text":"大概九成是符合你們的這個九成以上的廠商其實是有達標的嘛沒有達標的這些部分你們現在在輔導他們在重新能夠達到這個政府的標準這個我想也是我們對於使用SRF的這樣的一個標準的檢驗甚至連空污的排放等等"},{"start":5684.861,"end":5700.88,"text":"那這些SRF的使用廠全台灣有這麼多家最近大家為什麼我們的招委會特別排這個因為在桃園就產生了問題嘛桃園現在已經有5家在運作的SRF廠"},{"start":5702.491,"end":5727.625,"text":"我也把它列出來了那最近被廢止的三家呢還沒有開始運作有的已經蓋好九成有的蓋好七成有的才剛剛在申請開發許可而已各個情況不一蓋好九成的那一家呢是美商我為什麼會特別要問部長就是說到底還沒有蓋好的你就說他沒有達到標準"},{"start":5728.735,"end":5737.613,"text":"那理由是什麼已經發給人家執照了人家蓋到一半了蓋到九成了已經開始要試運轉了你給他撤照"},{"start":5739.514,"end":5739.974,"text":"我待會要請部長來回答"},{"start":5759.335,"end":5786.565,"text":"那剛剛有委員就講說桃園的蘇俊斌就講說因為你們的這個標準沒有達到歐盟的標準所以他要求要比照歐盟的標準剛剛楊瓊義委員也特別問到環境部你的標準是什麼你的標準有沒有訂出來標準在哪裡來我給你看次長你們下次來做報告的時候不要只有文字啊"},{"start":5787.608,"end":5811.013,"text":"你的標準就在這裡啦你的進熱值是比歐盟還高啊你的綠含量是跟歐盟相同啊你的拱含量也跟歐盟相同啊千含量歐盟沒有訂定但是你跟韓國是相同的啊歐盟沒有的你比照其他的國家的標準歐盟有的你有的是跟歐盟一樣的標準有的是比歐盟還嚴這些東西你要能夠講得出來啊否則委員問你"},{"start":5816.72,"end":5844.746,"text":"你啞巴吃黃蓮啊一句話都回不出來啊次長來說明讓您說明一下吧好謝謝委員我想那個剛剛委員已經把我們現在比照歐盟那歐盟沒有的標準我們比照像韓國他們有沒列進來那我們未來還會去檢討說是不是還有家園的空間至於桃園市政府他們所提的這些建議其實要看他們比照歐盟的是你一定的發電量以上的時候用什麼樣標準"},{"start":5845.606,"end":5852.551,"text":"所以您剛剛的回答我白話文解釋就是說現在有的使用廠現在在桃園的這五家它的標準其實也都沒有到歐盟的標準因為它這是舊的廠了嘛 對不對那你未來新的廠都還沒有蓋好都還沒有使用但是你們檢驗的時候你們要求的標準其實就是要比歐盟更嚴格"},{"start":5875.786,"end":5889.186,"text":"好那舊的廠沒有到那個標準可以繼續用新的廠比歐盟更嚴格不能使用那這個邏輯我就不太懂了各位委員報告不是這樣子現在的使用中的廠都依照我們現在的規定我們現在比較是說依照現在的規定所以它是符合現在的"},{"start":5891.048,"end":5915.823,"text":"要用現在標準去檢視未來的廠是要符合比歐盟更嚴格的標準未來的廠沒有放寬未來的廠還是要用這樣的標準去檢視我要講的是說如果它的發電量超過300MW以上的時候歐盟是有一個另外的標準你不能拿那個發電量來比我們現在的發電量而且我要說明的是我們現在使用中的18廠其實主要都不是用在發電"},{"start":5916.684,"end":5938.135,"text":"因為他們本來就是職場在使用煤炭那取代煤炭的使用有減碳的效果那桃園那新的三個廠其實是專門為了發電而蓋的當然這個部分我們要看地方政府跟居民要做好溝通要保護市民的健康也要考慮到桃園會區處理的去化的問題"},{"start":5938.995,"end":5962.494,"text":"我想這個桃園的廢棄物的去化的問題這個是相對重要保護居民健康這個也很重要我們一直在談SRF剛剛我看到這個經濟部的簡報裡頭特別舉了瑞典的梅拉倫湖發電廠部長我不曉得您有沒有去過那裡或者是您對這個東西有沒有徹底的了解這個是天下雜誌在2020年的報導"},{"start":5966.038,"end":5988.367,"text":"梅拉倫的發電廠過去也是燃煤的他後來在2014年開始慢慢的把燃煤改成燃燒林業廢棄物現在他的所有的燃煤廠已經改燒廢棄物生活廢棄物或者是木質的廢棄物也就是說他把很多東西也做成SRF來燃燒發電"},{"start":5990.268,"end":6008.101,"text":"所以就減碳量就不燃煤減碳量來說這個在你們的報告裡頭都寫得非常的清楚我認為應該要重新定義或者是說要把SRF對於環境所造成的影響減少排碳量減少的這個區塊"},{"start":6009.982,"end":6026.788,"text":"應該要去做詳細的說明如果環境部願意加嚴管制的話我覺得不要讓SRF的這個SRF廠跟SRF的發電廠變成被污名化而造成台灣很多的廢棄物去化"},{"start":6027.728,"end":6030.95,"text":"是完全同意我回去以後會跟環境部我們就委員所指導的這個方向來收集資料然後來定義這個新的這個模式這樣"},{"start":6049.46,"end":6060.531,"text":"另外就是說我剛剛提到一個問題還沒有時間讓您回答就是關於跟美國、美商之間的這一個經濟糾紛、貿易糾紛、官司糾紛的問題我認為經濟部應該要好好處理"},{"start":6065.345,"end":6084.712,"text":"我們會深刻反省這個政權或者是政策政權可以輪替政策是延續所以不能貿然因為現在的市長不同人你就把過去的徐可汗把人家廢止已經蓋好了人家已經蓋好了而且是國外的投資商我聽說這個AIT也"},{"start":6089.096,"end":6094.742,"text":"也非常關心這件事情所以我想這個經濟部應該好好的去處理這件事,謝謝請陳其凱委員質詢張其凱不好意思"},{"start":6128.368,"end":6129.811,"text":"請安保定請郭部長委員好"},{"start":6140.902,"end":6146.346,"text":"現在問題是我也很希望回答趕快到臺灣社場不過今天媒體的反應很多就是講說你會不會畫大餅或者畫餅充其"},{"start":6168.421,"end":6191.176,"text":"所以我們今天 我知道你起筆破字外 你有把握嘛 對不對這個跟氣魄沒關係啦 我是就事論事啦 不知道的人 他要說這樣 我也沒辦法 因為每個人的角度 跟每個人的認知 不會一樣所以我現在同情的就是 所以重點就是我們說到做到嘛 對不對"},{"start":6192.237,"end":6209.379,"text":"當然啦!當然啦!我們說到做到嘛!所以我們今天很明確的來做!國務部長要給揮打的一百億度的綠電要從哪裡來?那具體啊!是啊!對不對!我們今天就來討論要怎麼做嘛!我們把步驟先列一下好不好!有具體的計畫跟時程才不會被外面笑說你是"},{"start":6210.401,"end":6211.001,"text":"這是王陽明12歲所寫的詩"},{"start":6235.779,"end":6264.995,"text":"就是這樣啊,大家各做不一樣,看一個事實,不能這樣說我是畫大餅所以你要印證說你做得到不是畫大餅嘛來,那我們就具體問你,怎麼樣才不是畫大餅嘛幾個步驟至少要做啦,部長等一下,我跟你講第一個,你要達成這個事情,第一個步驟要做,總要聯絡黃仁勳嘛因為委員你剛才在問說黃仁勳說的嘛但是就我們的資料,黃仁勳沒有說要一百億度嘛"},{"start":6266.065,"end":6278.445,"text":"有啦有啦這個是媒體見了好幾次報的嘛OK那沒關係那你認為他要多少沒有那OK那你沒有收聽一個動作嘛不定不定收聽一個動作那你不管他要多少度的電他總是要回來嘛對不對"},{"start":6279.667,"end":6279.987,"text":"這個我們知道的"},{"start":6309.54,"end":6318.216,"text":"沒有 要一個時程表例如說一個禮拜趕快去跟他聯絡好不好你聯絡他 你想不想把他當成我們跟世界大廠做聯絡 要一個評議嗎"},{"start":6320.677,"end":6348.668,"text":"好了聯絡這個事情這個報告委員我不要定時接到國際的大公司都有他的海外的這個時程我想這點你應該是非常清楚啦其實這個應該牽扯到他的這個有一些策略啦策略你把世界都講過了我們當然是陰莽一盪啦陰莽你要努力你是經濟部長嗎你給他好朋友台灣就輸了你當然要去做事啊委員我跟他是朋友沒有錯啦但是我們不能夠"},{"start":6349.895,"end":6368.852,"text":"公開他太多的這個這個前瞻策略啦我這坦白講經營我也你很清楚嗎經營上面有很多的他不回來是不是他不會不回來啦對啊而且你更重要是人民跟你希望他回來我們答應他我們答應他就是投資的幾個要素"},{"start":6369.773,"end":6380.289,"text":"投資幾個要素但其中有一部分就是人力的問題人力的問題我們還在跟他溝通啦人力啦那當然電通重要啦來那我問你你昨天講了一個很重要"},{"start":6381.178,"end":6403.596,"text":"你說你綠電是可以給他的嘛對不對綠電我昨天提醒你喔是啊是綠電喔我講是綠電喔所以我今天跟委員重新報告一次2026年我們經濟部的綠電是可以發出550億度這個不要畫大餅這個馬上就看得到來來來 保定我先問你這個這樣好我請台電來保定我先問你你的目標2026你說500億我問你現在多少"},{"start":6411.407,"end":6413.989,"text":"我們在講說500,那個是我們的計畫,2026年嘛,而且我跟委員報告,就是說時間點"},{"start":6432.389,"end":6441.592,"text":"就是Evan這個回答他現在來臺灣投資也不會馬上要100億度啦我想這個你應該很清楚嘛你現在手上有的現在的綠電多少?"},{"start":6449.295,"end":6451.096,"text":"你這樣講說我昨天有特別跟你報告過了這一個電的多少增量"},{"start":6473.006,"end":6496.517,"text":"沒有線性關係啦!沒有線性關係啦!我們的時間走,可以看多久,這是時間走所產生的總量啦!所以沒有線性關係,這個我昨天也跟你報告過了你兩年後達到這個目標,而且老實講現在是困難的,不然你我提醒一下喔!各地現在那個光電,太陽能光電啦,現在抗爭不斷,像我自己人,一個大山的大坡"},{"start":6498.166,"end":6500.488,"text":"我相信你很關心我啦 所以你會反而說我會跳票 我真的謝謝啦"},{"start":6524.724,"end":6529.388,"text":"昨天也有一個很嚴重的問題,來,我給你看一下。我們沒有整個綠電啊,昨天我在質詢,你看我笑成這樣你知道我在笑什麼?昨天卓榮泰卓院長竟然說我們的綠電現在佔比所有發電的16%"},{"start":6551.278,"end":6563.825,"text":"現在嗎?我到2030年2030年的時候我們有到30%嗎?現在16%?他說不表記喔?是不是口誤?現在多少?現在我們地區電?你知道現在268一度嗎?對不對?知道嗎?對不對?那現在是佔我們的總電量的多少?我可以回答嗎?我可以請裁定那等一下我要求時間要久一點喔來來來,温生你答"},{"start":6581.189,"end":6598.176,"text":"那個委員昨天那個院長報告裡面寫的是這樣因為要我們回答說河山二號機在大修大修的時候我們來這幾天來再生能源的比例是怎樣所以我們就照著題目的規格答說這幾天再生能源的比例大概16%"},{"start":6600.458,"end":6606.865,"text":"他有兩種統計方式,因為你問了一個這樣子的問題,如果你要問整年,整年的話去年大概10%還沒到。那我們接下來的話,狀況是這樣,今年開始併網的離岸風電會越來越多,現在併了超過2.7個Giga。"},{"start":6624.823,"end":6644.352,"text":"陸續會併一直到2526其實最大的增量會是在這個地方所以現在第一個有抗爭我跟你講你那個併不併而成或者是這是第一個問題嘛昨天到底 欸 柏定這個事情很重要喔 是昨天是不是院長信口開河我不要說他87了喔欸你昨天是在旁邊的喔你昨天站在旁邊你沒有幫他拿錢對不對我們現在的綠電沒有占我們的發電的總量的16%嘛答案應該是多少"},{"start":6653.602,"end":6661.287,"text":"昨天是首長口誤,第二個是你們提供舊的資料、臭的資料,第三個同樣的報告委員,這個可能是我們是針對你所問的那個問題來回答阿現在就沒有16%,我們台灣當時綠電已經到了電量,來來來,我給大家看答案,來來來,你要跟我爭辯這個來,我們看一下"},{"start":6681.286,"end":6683.187,"text":"在去年啦我們的總發電量是2823億度對不對"},{"start":6687.093,"end":6709.927,"text":"綠電佔多少?再生能源佔多少?9.5%嘛!這是古年文生力道講的嘛對不對?去年不到10% 9.5%好我用最新的喔用最新的看右邊這個圖今年到目前為止1到8月用1月到8月的這個最新資料1922億度我們再生能源多少?10.5欸阿10.5長在國會殿堂對著我們講說我們已經不是10.5公16%"},{"start":6715.691,"end":6720.494,"text":"我跟你講我還特別去看了你們最近這幾天的啦到16的也非常少啦"},{"start":6744.181,"end":6762.408,"text":"所以這個有問題,我告訴你沒有,第一個我記得我們對全體資料交代清楚,第一個博院長在立法院在國會電廠有沒有講錯話不要說他白白的,可是他這個資料有問題你們要很清楚跟他,對不對不是,我們大家屬於專業的去年只有綠電在深圳只有9.5%今年到8月只有10.5%到目前為止"},{"start":6769.11,"end":6792.148,"text":"也不可能是16%這個灌水太嚴重,要趕快更正好不好報告委員您講的都是對的但是我們所引述的資料跟有一些不一樣我們是講那天嘛那天你在問那天的比例啦你是講幾年多的啦所以這個是在大家論述的點不太一樣啊您也是對的我們院長也是對的啦"},{"start":6793.469,"end":6811.226,"text":"你那天你回去查一下我再問他那天是16號你如果說用這個圖來那個月裡面只有颱風來那幾天有超過16大部分都沒有16沒有不要爭辯讓證據講話分母不一樣啦分母不一樣大家引述的資料的分母不一樣那現在最重要保定我剛剛這個質詢很重要的"},{"start":6813.889,"end":6836.748,"text":"就是你的綠電老講是不過的那你要去那邊找綠電這個第一個你趕快去跟黃仁堅談趕快叫他你剛剛講嘛人力嘛電我們幫忙趕快讓他回來全台灣都希望嘛對不對阿第二個你要弄清楚他的綠電到底有多少你能夠給他多少第三個你的電力啊你這個綠電不過你要從哪邊來現在有人在笑你啊你弄到後來怎麼樣真的要嘛你有新的技術嘛"},{"start":6837.549,"end":6838.25,"text":"黃仁欣說的是三部曲"},{"start":6861.721,"end":6888.453,"text":"德雷他說先說要100億度的電第二個一公尺就這句話他說核能是最理想的能源他還講了一句話他說核能也是綠電你去查這個都是有資料可循的所以你現在還有一條活路啊你不用到菲律賓去買電回來啊你用核能就可以啦我跟你講昨天為什麼會出現院長這個錯誤我現在可以另外一個可能性回到上個圖我給大家看一下你有沒有發現"},{"start":6890.151,"end":6907.82,"text":"一到八月份再生能源綠電10.5對不對如果加上左邊那個核能5.4%剛好就是16了你不是心裡把核能也認為綠電可以用嗎你把這個加起來就是16現在不管是不是故意或者是無意我跟你講好好用核能黃誠心都這樣講啦"},{"start":6909.957,"end":6917.021,"text":"謝謝委員最後我問一件事情常常你跟院長一直給我爭執一個東西你說啊大家都用RE100你知道嗎現在大家更流行的是什麼已經到了全時無碳電力了就是CFE"},{"start":6939.899,"end":6968.208,"text":"當初RE100啊連那個創始的會員國會員的最大企業亞馬遜現在都退出了他都已經加入CFE了CFE現在有多少?微軟、三菱電機、Google都是啊亞馬遜現在都進來了更重要的他是官方的他是聯合國能源組織攜手25家以上的大的企業跟組織共同倡議的他都認為核能要用啊"},{"start":6969.448,"end":6969.468,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7002.625,"end":7023.261,"text":"在陳廷飛委員諮詢完畢,我們休息5分鐘,現在請鄭正前委員諮詢。謝謝主席,我想請一下郭部長跟沈長翅。還有沈長翅。"},{"start":7030.745,"end":7051.443,"text":"非常早現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟"},{"start":7052.624,"end":7065.914,"text":"經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號"},{"start":7068.736,"end":7088.407,"text":"才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題"},{"start":7090.009,"end":7110.947,"text":"那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說臺灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應"},{"start":7114.689,"end":7128.534,"text":"這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來"},{"start":7130.294,"end":7158.901,"text":"明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位"},{"start":7160.161,"end":7165.584,"text":"那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背了表示你的中文底子是挺好的"},{"start":7186.494,"end":7206.132,"text":"但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以它的執行力其實很關鍵"},{"start":7207.413,"end":7228.118,"text":"我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態"},{"start":7230.441,"end":7251.651,"text":"我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手"},{"start":7253.211,"end":7253.451,"text":"理解齁"},{"start":7268.157,"end":7294.294,"text":"那部長那因為那個我想針對沈次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對那我在這邊也特別因為很多委員也都具體提到了就是我們目前就對材料的部分比照歐盟的標準可是對空污的部分並沒有比照歐盟的標準因為依照現在空污法當中的時候我們的標準相對寬鬆的這邊可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎"},{"start":7300.019,"end":7302.943,"text":"那我問一下,我們的立狀污染物的排放標準是多少?"},{"start":7317.64,"end":7343.84,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎"},{"start":7344.84,"end":7346.061,"text":"國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到"},{"start":7374.084,"end":7385.611,"text":"希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少?部長你知道嗎?我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下?"},{"start":7386.448,"end":7411.416,"text":"報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前三七五建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字"},{"start":7416.584,"end":7434.109,"text":"我想我們應該是有距離舒適我們除能的話我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個除能的這個市場"},{"start":7436.147,"end":7460.834,"text":"能夠得到更大的這個意見那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會議到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些"},{"start":7462.915,"end":7469.592,"text":"與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的"},{"start":7472.774,"end":7490.198,"text":"農量是1.3G那但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1G所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退廠潮"},{"start":7492.879,"end":7517.291,"text":"很多人出現退場潮在過程當中的時候為什麼出現這個退場潮一定有一些相關的問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個政務院董事長也點頭這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池"},{"start":7521.58,"end":7540.937,"text":"要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?"},{"start":7543.294,"end":7566.926,"text":"我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設出門電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定"},{"start":7568.547,"end":7577.351,"text":"後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的標準"},{"start":7580.037,"end":7580.057,"text":"市長"},{"start":7610.937,"end":7625.183,"text":"是,產業規模大那裡的時候就會進來是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的"},{"start":7625.603,"end":7651.216,"text":"所以本席這邊也特別希望就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道"},{"start":7653.527,"end":7658.72,"text":"你是說鋰電池失火的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?"},{"start":7659.757,"end":7678.087,"text":"現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下我們現在在做深度節能就是ESCO的時候會用到儲電"},{"start":7685.211,"end":7686.493,"text":"我們在用Exco的時候"},{"start":7706.794,"end":7734.842,"text":"綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟"},{"start":7735.622,"end":7764.371,"text":"環境部這邊 社長你簡單回答對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有 只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理"},{"start":7765.071,"end":7765.571,"text":"請陳迪菲委員質詢"},{"start":7795.154,"end":7796.675,"text":"經濟部開過兩次會議了兩次準備會議"},{"start":7824.312,"end":7847.051,"text":"都準備好了嗎?這是57年來首個11月登錄的球台喔!報告委員,應該水跟電都準備好了?水跟電都沒有問題了。那水的部分,我們從地方到中央的責任,我們都劃分清楚了嗎?誰要負責什麼?我是不是請水利署長來跟您報告?"},{"start":7849.181,"end":7863.881,"text":"這個部分都已經有明確的分工,而且我們在禮拜一的時候都跟地方政府產生橫向的聯繫。確定嗎?我想我們都在基層,署長你很清楚,只要是有颱風我們幾乎都在基層跑。"},{"start":7864.922,"end":7884.78,"text":"我常常也都直接跟署長直接要求說哇哪邊需要來做協助然後我們的抽水機應該怎麼去配置怎麼去幫忙我相信署長應該接過我很多通的電話包括第六河川局等等所以我們在基層跑的時候我們發現一個問題從我們海米颱風來的時候當時候也是哇整個"},{"start":7891.653,"end":7904.569,"text":"完全這個風雲變色一瞬間所以我們知道說在第一線的所有抽水機的調度地方跟中央的配置該怎麼分工"},{"start":7906.678,"end":7930.784,"text":"對,第一個部分地方當然他有擁有他的這個抽水機除此之外我們中央也是會有那我在禮拜一的時候也跟我們當然啊地方跟中央都要有啊可是我為什麼會用這個問題來質詢署長就你在地方的權責跟中央的權責你有整個大牌中牌小牌嗎"},{"start":7931.704,"end":7956.588,"text":"那個系統是不一樣的嘛抽水機有小台有中台有大台嘛可是你知道嗎在我們凱敏颱風的第一線的經驗是我們根本調不到抽水機啊為什麼調不到抽水機因為怎麼都被搶光然後呢在排水系統我們跟好不容易跟中央調到抽水機結果太大了"},{"start":7957.506,"end":7975.12,"text":"太大了那個孔裝不進去啊所以我一直在說地方跟中央的權責在第一時間是不是可以救急我們的小排、中排、大排整個抽水管路的大小口徑"},{"start":7976.829,"end":7997.023,"text":"是不是能夠符合我們抽水機的一個需求?誰在做這個調度?誰在做這個分配?在我們中央應變中心都會有一個統一的調度開明的時候確實因為災情相當的嚴峻所以我們從全國各地有調到抽水機到南部地方去但是這些的數量"},{"start":7997.583,"end":7998.144,"text":"誰在做這個掌控?"},{"start":8018.107,"end":8031.666,"text":"就是說我們凱米已經發生這個狀態了我為什麼一直強調57年來首個11月登錄的邱台它的狀況有可能會更慘而且瞬間的影響會更大"},{"start":8032.921,"end":8049.334,"text":"所以我們要怎麼樣把凱米他過去我們所得到的一些教訓然後在這一個部分做調和誰掌控第一時間我們的抽水機誰在掌控第二我們要到第一線到底他的口徑"},{"start":8050.695,"end":8079.24,"text":"你的口徑沒有處理好運到現場浪費人力、浪費精力甚至如果有需要的我們如果可以第一時間過去的話是不是能夠救急而且又得到比較萬全的一些協助可是你今天如果大的抽水機然後運到現場不能用浪費時間又浪費了所有第一時間可以預防的狀態"},{"start":8080.549,"end":8100.187,"text":"是,謝謝委員提點。這些部分我們針對凱米之後都有進行相關的改善的工作。那我們在中央應變中心今天上午的5點30分已經成立了一級的開設。所以針對抽水溪的調度,包括管線的這個部分,如何避免抗熱颱風對我們造成"},{"start":8102.109,"end":8102.729,"text":"主長,因為凱米確實是讓我們在瞬間的雨量"},{"start":8123.66,"end":8123.68,"text":"對．是"},{"start":8150.698,"end":8174.025,"text":"我們拜託署長我們把凱米再盤整一下凱米當時候沒有辦法到位的問題然後盤整而且不是中央地方也要拉緊神經啦中央地方所以我剛剛會說你們的全責劃分好了嗎你們很用心在做可是如果地方也是放鈴鈴"},{"start":8175.492,"end":8196.99,"text":"也是沒有用啊這個我們在今天的這個應變的會議裡面我們還會再通知地方這個部分要拜託一下就是說我們在防災應變中心我們中央跟地方的權責在應急救急的整個調度怎麼去分工怎麼給最有效的訊息跟資訊"},{"start":8198.551,"end":8219.756,"text":"這是重要,若有資訊落差,你怎麼調度就不好啦,調去就是沒用盡嘛,所以資訊不能有落差,這是我非常強調的。我們在第一線調度,我們自己都發生這個問題啊,調到現在說,哇,那個口徑我們的抽水機到現場太大了。"},{"start":8221.375,"end":8221.555,"text":"兩枚立筆"},{"start":8251.415,"end":8277.301,"text":"因為我們現在電價漲了之後雖然我們有分離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間可是你知道嗎傳產現在這一波他們計算下來只要是用電大戶它的級距是加倍從7%有可能到14%可是你知道嗎現在傳產發生一個問題他說"},{"start":8280.916,"end":8309.261,"text":"委員你今天叫我們要拚經濟叫我們要去拿訂單結果我們訂單拿得越多我們的產量越多我們用電量越多結果集聚是用跳的兩倍跳結果兩倍跳之後它可以增加回過頭來跟我們的訂單增加成本嗎?不行啊不能啊所以他說的我訂單拿越多我料路多啊"},{"start":8310.865,"end":8331.32,"text":"因為他原本給的價格就是這樣但是當你台電在往上攀升加倍循環的一個價格他不能回饋到原始所以所有的傳統產業說阿你現在是別人說大高家來不要再徵訂單了不要再搶訂單了"},{"start":8333.464,"end":8359.591,"text":"所以我這幾天聽到傳產這樣的一個回應我嚇到了這確實啊所以我就掉了我們在這一次對於電的一個調漲確實是這個狀況可是我們問了台電台電說沒有啦我們有這個離峰時間半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間他們是可以依照他們的數據可是傳產都是24小時欸"},{"start":8363.145,"end":8375.558,"text":"傳產都是24小時的,輪三班的,傳統生涯都是過去,在拚經濟幹一頓一腳,賠償照片天堂的。他們是在拚經濟跟時間賽跑的。所以你說這個離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間對他們來講,一點幫助都沒有。"},{"start":8386.5,"end":8386.941,"text":"來,那個董事長"},{"start":8411.005,"end":8434.625,"text":"報告委員那個7%、14%不是累進的這第一件事第二件事跟委員報告衰退的要衰退的才會有那個7%還漲但他也是隨著時間比較隨著那個就是說景氣復甦他還是會不是啊董事長你聽不懂我的意思我講的是現在當然不是衰退是現在他目前他還在"},{"start":8438.268,"end":8458.3,"text":"真訂單它是我們在整個經濟狀況還OK的傳產那這些傳產它面臨的問題是當它在目前的狀況之下它的%數是如此當然不是累進啊可是它到了某一個坡度它就會往上跳"},{"start":8459.019,"end":8478.676,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在電價的調整上這幾年來的調整其實狀況是大概看得到一個調整的協率沒有 董事長基本上我們最近會得到那麼多產業的一個聲音你們是不是應該要去成立一個平台"},{"start":8479.477,"end":8504.357,"text":"去協助所有傳產他在整個用電的狀況否則他絕對不敢去接電他要說他不敢接電的大我跟委員報告那個部長已經一再指示我們要做這件事我們會來做這件事並沒有啊並沒有啊就並沒有啊報告委員這個我們要趕快加緊速度啦我們是方向方法都有啦那我們現在就是執行力要提高"},{"start":8505.398,"end":8522.62,"text":"對阿,那你這個平台都沒有出來,傳展現在就對於說．中小微企業上面我們利用這一次的這個數位化還有這個深度節能這兩個方式,這個雙軸引擎下去可以幫助提高競爭力"},{"start":8523.621,"end":8540.346,"text":"你說的智慧化對他們來講不是數位化我們幫助他說才有辦法智慧化數位化跟智慧化你這個部分要什麼時候去達到讓他們可以管控然後第二個你說要節能"},{"start":8541.646,"end":8556.739,"text":"說真的要解的空間實在不大你應該去了解所有的傳產傳產的狀況他們其實每一次配合你們的所謂要一趴調整一趴調整大家是有夠辛苦的但是又要接訂單"},{"start":8558.3,"end":8577.457,"text":"然後又沒有辦法得到我們政府關愛的眼神你說船產請問你們用了多少力量在關心船產?這個我們現在組織上面當然有調整所以我們會要求實際上面在執行力上面要看到成果我發現我會落實要求這個中小企業署跟這個產發署"},{"start":8583.335,"end":8595.904,"text":"實際去落實這個計畫部長一個月一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步我不敢要求說看到成果啦起步你到底對於傳產這一個所謂輔導光這個電光這個電喔"},{"start":8601.227,"end":8601.447,"text":"是!是!"},{"start":8631.26,"end":8644.568,"text":"我可以了解委員你所指教的我都可以了解所以我現在就是回到你說的一個月來這個那個平台先建立起來怎麼去協助所有傳產在整個所謂數位化"},{"start":8648.05,"end":8665.544,"text":"還有節能的部分怎麼去做處理?沒有,可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面象徵的你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要這才是最嚴重的你都只是叫大家照本宣科然後從我們的電腦當中然後寫書面"},{"start":8668.906,"end":8690.258,"text":"用書面這不對的產業的需要每個產業別他有不同的需要還有每個產業別有不同的一個狀況是委員你講的所指導的我完全能夠了解我也是這樣要求我的部署如果一個月內沒有看到成績那我會換掉這個部署"},{"start":8691.923,"end":8692.804,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8732.352,"end":8747.758,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響"},{"start":8754.778,"end":8756.56,"text":"有來吟詩作罪我們都嚇到我從小就會這樣講"},{"start":8784.241,"end":8794.514,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8798.285,"end":8821.954,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8826.278,"end":8826.938,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8851.303,"end":8852.204,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8879.352,"end":8881.096,"text":"不要去轉述的情形輸出"},{"start":8891.554,"end":8911.751,"text":"你有聽到黃明志說的嗎?你是聽其他的人說黃明志說的嗎?五、六十年,就是就像你嘛,人家要演藝人體嘛,他不能倒聽聽說那種話。但是我說他提出來的不是律師,是要律師。我跟你講,這是看的,我們其實用常理來看一件事,好不好?他講的"},{"start":8924.319,"end":8924.339,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8941.985,"end":8944.147,"text":"我們現在的那100億度﹖我的功力"},{"start":8971.42,"end":8972.063,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長"},{"start":8979.766,"end":8980.527,"text":"沒有啦 我跟你講"},{"start":9008.831,"end":9008.871,"text":"好,謝謝,要繼續開會"},{"start":9038.138,"end":9061.825,"text":"請謝一鳳委員質詢。謝謝主席。我想請郭部長。請郭部長。還有我們水利署署長。請賴署長。"},{"start":9066.342,"end":9089.931,"text":"委員長,部長,你知道吧,颱風要來了,去找他一下,好嗎?這跟你們水利學有非常大的關係耶,你知道嗎?你應該知道吧?署長都不見了,慘了,你看你署長落跑了,是不是因為颱風太大了,署長都落跑了,會不會災情像上次一樣嚴重?"},{"start":9092.517,"end":9120.086,"text":"蘇長來了你不講是不是他去那個上洗手間啦蘇長你落跑了是不是他去關心災情颱風太大你落跑了是不是那個委員我們對於那個抗壞颱風的部分我們現在加強準備那今天也跟縣長有通過電話那針對於凱米颱風之前對於彰化縣境內的所有的淹水的問題他現在已經有產生開始預布"},{"start":9121.344,"end":9137.178,"text":"對阿!對於我們大成地區、河美地區、鹿港地區上一次淹水的情況那這一次會不會再次發生?這個屬於縣政府所管的這個部分他已經在加強準備那我們對於縣政府未來治理的需求那是何舉管的呢?"},{"start":9138.755,"end":9163.469,"text":"社會局管的部分呢?社會局管當然我們禮拜一就已經開始做黃台的準備了有沒有開始做了?一定啊 有啊是不是那這一次颱風來的時候會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢?我們做最好的這個準備嘛因應這個最壞的狀況那對於相關的不管是"},{"start":9164.912,"end":9185.74,"text":"在河川內的就是說海堤的就是堤防以及相關的區域治水有沒有辦法協助長化縣那當然有啊有啊系統性的我們區域排水總共是26億那還加上治理的還加上了整個計畫26家26家幾億26家8億有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":9192.677,"end":9221.607,"text":"我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中了已經在設計了嗎對希望經濟部可以大力的協助因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了可能所有的產業設施很多委員所關心的不管是產業的問題不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失我希望經濟部可以做好準備可以嗎"},{"start":9222.627,"end":9242.264,"text":"這個部長多次的叮嚀除了委員說明了之外對於比如說弱勢的地方不可中斷的營運不可中斷的地方我們都已經在加強在做處理這裡面包括抽水機的這個調度還有治理的工作好 謝謝喔 謝謝署長我現在想要請台電"},{"start":9249.309,"end":9253.404,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9259.715,"end":9280.848,"text":"現在我們台灣全年度的用電是2765億度台積電一家就用了247.75度占了大概是8%那整個半導體占多少%你應該知道吧應該是12%"},{"start":9283.561,"end":9302.606,"text":"我想請教,如果半導體的用電佔了12%,他們的用電大部分都是綠電,是不是?是的大部分都是,那我們現在台灣整體的綠電目前到達幾%?16%?上一次你們說16%,是不是?是的"},{"start":9308.168,"end":9315.187,"text":"那剩下來的只有4%那4%裡面我們中小企業可以用到幾%"},{"start":9318.103,"end":9344.022,"text":"我們現在是看這樣子啦就是說到底要用綠我們這個是比例啦全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電啦但是用綠電的人大概需要用綠電的產生除了半導體以外其他的中小企業哪一些需要產生綠電團體也可能需要啊如果未來他們要出口他們就需要綠電了這怎麼處理"},{"start":9346.024,"end":9361.744,"text":"我們當然就是統計他們需要需求量然後幫助他們第一個可以買到綠電第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳我想剛才也有很多的委員就這個節能減碳這個問題"},{"start":9363.146,"end":9390.835,"text":"我知道你在提倡的是ASCO就是能夠深度節能的部分那目前中小企業來共同來做這個深度節能你們經濟部協助了多少那但是未來最大的情況就是這4%除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電剩下的4%的綠電你怎麼樣子能夠給中小企業以及你們未來"},{"start":9391.775,"end":9396.477,"text":"我們現在綠電的就是從發電的部分來看就是最快速的方法就是從風力"},{"start":9412.242,"end":9439.47,"text":"然後太陽能再來水利再來就是地熱第三生殖能我們有5、6種方式可以再提高綠電的這個量現在都是同時在進行中我們預計是這樣子本來是2025年底要能夠達到這個20%但是現在因為過去的一些總統原因那delay到2026年的11月可以達標那麼就綠電來講"},{"start":9441.972,"end":9453.646,"text":"2026年的這個年底的時候我們大概可以發到550億度所以這個這樣子的一個亮年我們其實是可以滿足到2030年"},{"start":9455.509,"end":9481.701,"text":"那我想請問為什麼不用核電?那所謂的原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別?報告委員我想你也是非常清楚這個核電是潔淨的能源對減碳是有幫助的但是核電不是綠電我知道我們現在目前2030年之前努力的方向是趕快讓需要綠電的人滿足它"},{"start":9482.827,"end":9483.167,"text":"對,我問你的是"},{"start":9510.476,"end":9532.725,"text":"現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性那新核能它增加的成本更高那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助是 報告委員我想這個命題我們都是可以討論的所以還在討論是不是我想應該是在討論因為我們如果確定這個"},{"start":9535.357,"end":9558.333,"text":"安全沒有問題。第二個,核廢料是可以處理的。第三個,全民有共識。那這個三個前提都是可以解開的。那我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子。我想您指導的這個核三的問題,或者核二的問題。這個我們現在在這個法令上面,它還是沒有辦法。我們必須要先把這個法解開以後。"},{"start":9559.485,"end":9579.46,"text":"那才可以去充分的去解決這個問題這個法如果沒有辦法解開的話我現在經濟部必須要依法行事那依法行事也就是說我現在的設備時間到了40年到了他就要停機我如果要重新啟用必須在5年前"},{"start":9580.401,"end":9583.263,"text":"那不用核電的情況下是不是就增加了火力的發電?"},{"start":9600.991,"end":9625.399,"text":"沒有啊,不一定,我剛才講過了,不增加的話,我們有很多的方法有啊,你現在台中的那個,現在要今天下午要審議的那個燃氣機組他就超過了原本的火力發電的容量啊,是不是?那不就是在增加嗎?那個用電量是可以增加,然後減碳量可以大幅降低"},{"start":9626.17,"end":9633.215,"text":"用電量增加,那你不是在增加火力發電嗎?你不就在增加火力發電嗎?是不是?只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛,是不是?不是,我們現在如果"},{"start":9642.711,"end":9642.911,"text":"火力是綠電嗎?"},{"start":9668.271,"end":9674.779,"text":"火力當然不是綠電所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉這個碳用氫能來捕捉碳這個我們也在研究開發一方面我們加快那個綠能的開發所以我的綠能是在"},{"start":9687.734,"end":9701.129,"text":"在我們這個時候不斷的在加發太陽能光電或者是水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電那風力除了陸域的風電以外我們還有離岸的風電"},{"start":9703.391,"end":9731.08,"text":"那這個部分其實是我認為可以得到更大的這個support如果大家願意支持我們台電發多更多的這個電廠我相信就是大家在看這台積電它用那麼多電半導體用那麼多電我們中小微的企業也需要做這麼多電臺灣就是一個以出口為導向以世界為我們的市場的這樣的一個國家的話我們必須要滿足所有企業大中小微"},{"start":9731.92,"end":9732.1,"text":"請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":9758.885,"end":9786.949,"text":"好謝謝我們主席那我們先請經濟部郭部長請郭部長委員好部長好部長這個我想大家也是非常關心電的問題阿我想身為交流委員會的委員今天特別來這邊問一件事情就是電價對於交通的衝擊阿到底這個大眾運輸算不算民生用電部長"},{"start":9787.915,"end":9788.356,"text":"您這個問題是非常好"},{"start":9796.516,"end":9822.822,"text":"我們可以考慮大眾用電是不是民生用電是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題好,謝謝部長因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論但是直到這個昨天晚上我是問有沒有而已我還沒有問內容啊"},{"start":9823.542,"end":9847.047,"text":"昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於"},{"start":9849.667,"end":9849.827,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":9876.701,"end":9893.855,"text":"我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼"},{"start":9896.617,"end":9914.199,"text":"這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的"},{"start":9915.18,"end":9934.91,"text":"但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是運算有目的是事業主管機能來考慮那如果我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人"},{"start":9935.51,"end":9953.486,"text":"尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯我想要被道歉所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用"},{"start":9962.573,"end":9979.842,"text":"但是有點牛頭不在馬嘴因為這個包含說昨天的AIT有講這個是綠電的問題那之前去年的美國商會的台灣白皮2023台灣白皮書也提到這個再生能源的發展不如預期也會影響我們產業的運作那包含我們近期這個我們台大電的我們台灣綠電的這個吳范生創辦人也講"},{"start":9983.224,"end":9995.296,"text":"這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足啊那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告"},{"start":10000.5,"end":10021.916,"text":"發電的結構發電發過電壓的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就230億度了"},{"start":10027.701,"end":10033.461,"text":"換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裏生出綠電出來"},{"start":10035.287,"end":10060.657,"text":"綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係"},{"start":10063.593,"end":10073.488,"text":"就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。"},{"start":10077.779,"end":10105.937,"text":"他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來的那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它環評的部分"},{"start":10107.309,"end":10119.432,"text":"現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組"},{"start":10128.81,"end":10154.629,"text":"現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總諮詢的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊"},{"start":10156.291,"end":10156.771,"text":"我們就看環評結果阿"},{"start":10185.814,"end":10186.614,"text":"報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的"},{"start":10205.219,"end":10231.254,"text":"未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我希望大家可以用電"},{"start":10234.275,"end":10241.641,"text":"主席 對不起 最後一句話 最後一段話而已現有的燃煤機組10部就550萬千瓦你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後再加上現的燃氣機組你是810萬千瓦"},{"start":10249.369,"end":10249.569,"text":"我們的目標是一樣的"},{"start":10273.803,"end":10274.624,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席"},{"start":10304.796,"end":10326.732,"text":"葉主席這個 作為召委都很辛苦都要主持會議對我個人而言這個遵守發言的這個時間是我作為一個國會議員基本的素質如果連這個機關都摸得在乎誰這個恐怕很難對選民承諾"},{"start":10333.342,"end":10356.557,"text":"能夠具體來實現。所以我定6加2。好!好!先有請這個郭部長。請郭部長。姜文諾、姜署長。姜署長。然後我們游政委、游署長。游署長。委員好。昨天還沒問完的齁。部長。CPTPP我是這個立法院促進會的會長。那我長期希望"},{"start":10357.83,"end":10361.914,"text":"我們希望說這個能夠在去年加拿大明年是澳洲相對不是這個中國可以控制的國家所以我們最怕就是中國因素"},{"start":10381.428,"end":10405.663,"text":"現在有許多新的國家在加入是共識局我想請問一下江組長有沒有信心在明年澳洲當輪值主席的時候能夠有機會加入CPTPP您的評估呢?報告委員謝謝委員關心我們會盡各種努力來對於加入CPTPP是跟去年回答一樣"},{"start":10407.506,"end":10434.132,"text":"因為報告委員您也很清楚我們要加入CPTPP的話必須要符合這個奧克蘭原則也就是那個原則我也很清楚我只是說你作為一個主管機關你當然還要結合談判辦公室對不對還要結合各個外交的管束社會管束因為會議國很多你要共識覺得何其容易何其困難非常不容易的事情但是我知道你們很努力我想請你說"},{"start":10435.132,"end":10455.735,"text":"你評估明年加入的可能性高不高委員我們會盡最大的努力因為這個相關的這個入會工作小組的工作那你不能告訴我每年都要盡最大努力盡最大努力是基本的態度嘛但是我覺得你應該讓國會知道目前哪些國家的困難度比較高"},{"start":10457.547,"end":10484.506,"text":"哪些國家還有哪些問題需要克服的我們一起結合外交部結合經貿談判公司一起來會商來解決嘛你要跟部長報告目前的進度在哪裡所以一起努力繼續加油謝謝好謝謝江組長來游署長昨天還沒完江組長請回座那個游署長這個部分啊利樂啊"},{"start":10486.36,"end":10512.832,"text":"地流跟小水利發電都是再生能源對不對是但是你推動都會發生問題有一些的困難或者法令協調所以以至於我們有很好的這個地流發展的環境對不對但是卻沒有辦法去像其他國家土耳其啦或者印尼他能夠發電這個他的發電規模比雖然比我們晚開始但是他們建設的發電規模比我們快"},{"start":10513.888,"end":10542.435,"text":"就是國家在主導你出席的投入成本挖掘成本很高對不對所以這部分昨天有跟這個部長提過第6、8令有相關的限制包括土地問題、人民資產問題、懷民問題、經費的問題另外主導性的問題如果由政府主導它難度就降低對不對是這部分我希望說部長是不是折成一個推動小組啊部裡面要有推動小組設定目標你現在目標設定實在太保守"},{"start":10543.824,"end":10560.032,"text":"所以第6發電是為未來再生能源的重要的支柱之一現在是太陽能還有離岸風電為第6是很大的潛力但是我們沒有充分發揮我希望有揮動小組定期設定相關的HPI定期去追蹤"},{"start":10561.767,"end":10573.151,"text":"這個部長可以嗎?可以,我會向我們的這個綠能辦公室啊來要求他要有專人來專責來這個這個組織然後來督導這個這個台電總經理台電王總這個第6發電跟台電有沒有關係?我覺得王總經理非常稱職他也非常專業專業的問題我要請教他因為第6部分"},{"start":10591.311,"end":10595.773,"text":"您覺得未來台灣有沒有更大的發展空間?另外小水利發電也是很重要,部長"},{"start":10616.442,"end":10616.822,"text":"另外這個環境部省次長"},{"start":10648.018,"end":10669.135,"text":"新城市長部長委員好那個SRF目前啊這個當然SRF目前這個補助好像取消了嘛是補助取消了嘛你未來這些管制措施啊那你要怎麼去兼顧這個這個相關的這個去化的要求"},{"start":10670.089,"end":10677.975,"text":"所以這個部分你這個SRF的政策補助政策有調整那64萬噸可燃的廢氣物這個處理的問題你們有沒有方案"},{"start":10681.732,"end":10700.896,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10700.996,"end":10706.72,"text":"這產業反映一些亂象,這些亂象我想就提供給你看,製造端的違規現象,應用端的惡性循環,策略執行跟現實的落差,這些反映給你,你看怎麼去解決。"},{"start":10725.393,"end":10751.072,"text":"有把這些三大亂象提出一個具體解決方案如果時間限制是不是可以一個書面資料給我?可以,如果您簡單報告一下我們在今年的6月到9月之前進行了前面的總體檢那麼也提出了一些改進的措施那在年底之前會訂定一些辦法以及這個排放標準的加嚴那另外替代燃料排碳的減量方法這個目前還沒有公告嘛對不對?我們是以這一個"},{"start":10753.391,"end":10755.812,"text":"另外國發會要成立這個福島成立控股公司部長您覺得國發會的這個意見您覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":10784.198,"end":10788.043,"text":"我們現在主要就是因為要因應這個整個出口的這個市場"},{"start":10789.966,"end":10813.974,"text":"所以他要成立這個控股公司幫助我們整個產業鏈也就是說現在比較沒有競爭力的這個產業鏈可以透過這個供應鏈的關係就產業嘛對對用水五金啦是不是水五金國家隊的這個意思對我知道水五金、車用電子包括資訊服務另外工具機嘛是先來工具機開始是"},{"start":10815.976,"end":10823.727,"text":"國發會要輔導這些公司成立控股公司就是打國家隊那經濟部站在什麼角度去協助呢?我們站在就是幫他這個"},{"start":10825.469,"end":10826.39,"text":"國會議員不能遵守這個發言時間就是基本的素養不夠"},{"start":10855.902,"end":10856.182,"text":"請政廳財委員質詢"},{"start":10883.337,"end":10908.17,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請郭部長。郭部長。好。這個本席再次的要請這個經濟部,尤其是水利署要依法行政。請賴署長。原則是基本法第20條規定,"},{"start":10909.881,"end":10935.679,"text":"政府承認原住民族土地的權利然後這個行政院合定的公有土地增編原住民保留地處理人者定得很清楚有下列情形之一者該土地不得增編為原住民保留地就是兩個條土地法14條但是呢土地法14條這個部分"},{"start":10937.909,"end":10962.997,"text":"經過工廠管理機關同意就可以水利法823條是不得私有水利法823條定的很清楚循常洪水位、行水區之土地不得移轉為私有我們絕對遵守這個法例土地法14條海岸一定限度內國產署的全部都同意真化變保留地"},{"start":10964.324,"end":10989.361,"text":"唯獨所謂的可通運之水道及其沿岸而事實上原住民現在所尤其一些個案都不是可通運之水道根本就沒有辦法通運內政部修正了這個土地法14條第一項各款規定不得私有之土地這裡面特別提到"},{"start":10991.909,"end":11019.117,"text":"只要工廠管理機關就可以同意就可以經濟部水利署106年也根據這個內政部的函式內政部的所修正的處理人者但是內政部水利署多了一些附調條件水利法83條你們說因為你們沒有公告沒有公告是你家的事情"},{"start":11020.956,"end":11041.584,"text":"是政府的事情啊部長是不是這樣你沒有公告然後你就要扣大這是不對的我們願意遵守啊所謂立法83條啊好第二段請各河川管理機關切一未來治理首席之範圍認定"},{"start":11045.242,"end":11070.775,"text":"很清楚未來治理首席之範圍我們先退一步到這邊並依原計法辦理好我們來看這個這是卑南西部長你看一下這個西很清楚我們的部落在最上方我們的部落這個十三部落我跟部長講非常"},{"start":11075.983,"end":11104.197,"text":"非常可悲可憐的部落為什麼呢?這個部落本來在哪裡呢?現在的治航機場本來在治航機場為了要蓋治航機場就搬到這裡這本來就是我們的土地啦就搬到這裡這麼漂亮的治航機場這麼好的地方提供給國家"},{"start":11106.318,"end":11135.331,"text":"為了國防搬到這邊我們自己的土地好 我們看這條北南溪堤防蓋了堤防在哪裡呢好 我來看一下這條道比較明顯的路 那是路吉林路在吉林路的下方那個白線的地方已經有堤防了"},{"start":11138.005,"end":11166.121,"text":"部長已經有提防了而且這個提防啊紀理這個溪啊紀理這條溪非常的遠非常非常的遠還有很多很多的農地在那邊我們沒有要求這個農地一定要這邊保留地沒有我們只是要求我們自己的祖先留下來的土地而且已經是在提防"},{"start":11167.758,"end":11193.736,"text":"提防跟部落之間的土地水利署很堅持而且不是未來治理首席提防就有了然後又用什麼呢我們要放消波塊消波塊放的地方已經過多了還要去增那麼一點點的土地"},{"start":11196.712,"end":11224.782,"text":"所以這個部分另外呢在瑞穗也是一樣瑞穗、北岡大橋堤防部長你看看右邊的堤防堤防都有了左邊的土地也弄了很多要蓋消波塊、放消波也放了竟然我們的土地"},{"start":11225.816,"end":11254.851,"text":"全部被劃為核酸7億線之內有提防喔!組長部長這個部分也沒有多少的土地這是祖先留下來的土地我們也要我們也願意你要做只能種只能種多少高我們都同意但是"},{"start":11256.513,"end":11265.37,"text":"土地所有錢要還給我們這是行政所核定的規定而且是原住民族基本法所規定的"},{"start":11270.657,"end":11288.934,"text":"委員你剛剛講的這個部分我們都會貫徹跟履行那至於你剛剛所提兩個個案我們也知道氣候變遷對於核道的這個治理的這個需求的部分我們不需要以核增地但我們也希望建立一個國土的韌性那完成治理"},{"start":11291.725,"end":11317.646,"text":"委員,我們台灣的河川平常沒有水喔,大雨來的時候,整個河川裡面都是水所以你現在看到北邊這個地方,有一些農耕的這個地方,在大雨來的時候,它可能是會...我完全不認同,我們的土地變成河流也沒有關係沒有關係啊,沒有關係啊,我們不會要求補償,也沒有規定要補償啊,不會"},{"start":11319.724,"end":11347.035,"text":"也沒有規定要賠償,不會?那個是因為有治理的所需要黃紅的需要的部分我們會依照這個水利法來做檢討至於你剛剛講兩個個案對於河川區域的所謂的勘定是不是可以再重新來做一個檢討這個回歸到專家的論證那我們在今年就已經開始啟動這個劃定的這個檢討作業你上次講說這個今年年底以前"},{"start":11348.175,"end":11359.97,"text":"還是11月底以前?你上次是有這樣講嗎?那為什麼要積極的現在讓鄉親怎麼又一直放消波塊?保護我們的土地又放消波塊?"},{"start":11364.487,"end":11384.993,"text":"委員,颱風這裡已經來了齁消波塊已經很多了我們需要相關的這個防洪設施啊災害的這個安全啊齁讓民眾在一個減災的社會可以安居樂業這是我們努力的這個目標自己看這個圖你放消波塊已經有提防了的"},{"start":11385.987,"end":11407.664,"text":"已經有提防了這個我們在全國各地都有一樣的一個做法你知道你在別的地方都放我們都贊成為什麼一定要在我們原住民已經在使用的土地裡面來放呢這個沒有針對性這是依照防救災的這個需求它是你們認定的"},{"start":11410.694,"end":11410.894,"text":"請賴樂雄委員質詢"},{"start":11439.952,"end":11440.955,"text":"謝謝主席,請郭部長"},{"start":11448.484,"end":11472.143,"text":"市長、委員好先請教黃仁勳說回台投資需要100億度的綠電他有講大概需要多長的時間嗎?報告委員是不是黃仁勳講的我不清楚但是這是一個假設命題但如果今天有一個廠商他需要100億度的綠電我們要知道說他在什麼時候需要這麼大的綠電"},{"start":11474.853,"end":11488.247,"text":"所以可能也需要部長再回答這個問題可能要先把那個時間點抓出來假如他需要在這1、2年內需要的話那當然是相當巨大的跟委員報告如果兩年後需要兩年後需要我們是做得到的"},{"start":11488.507,"end":11493.193,"text":"是我看整個綠電的狀況是整個綠電狀況在2022年其實已經有238億度的那到了2025年明年就已經有578億度當然很多都要"},{"start":11504.306,"end":11533.346,"text":"那到了2030年的925億度啦齁所以部長剛剛提到啦齁如果2026年需要的話2026年需要這個100億度的綠電是可以調度的出來的嗎?是的因為看來的話會超過600若是兩年後的話會超過600億度的綠電齁那需求量比較大的大概都這幾個比較大的國際廠商才有這樣的需求跟委員報告啦這個未來這個AI的使用齁使用到最大的極限的時候"},{"start":11534.346,"end":11559.425,"text":"大概會在2030年以後的事情是那根據這個客人的這個需求最大最大的RDC他可能需要1G的電所以各位可以看到在海外很多的這個國際知名的大廠他會用很多的這個電但我們在台灣來講我們希望因為他們要的是綠電"},{"start":11561.752,"end":11580.991,"text":"坦白講他們要的是綠電所以我現在在2030年之前我當然要把竭盡所能把綠電拉上來所以這個邀請部長這個大概接下來都是不管是半導體產業或者是一些AI的產業大概都需要大量電力需要綠電所以我想"},{"start":11581.451,"end":11597.98,"text":"也要加快速度我也看了一下報告去年的2023年的資料光你現有的再生能源就有268億度就是說其實我認為綠電的部分這幾年努力都有一定的成果那也期待這個經濟部的團隊持續加油這個綠電絕對是一個"},{"start":11600.862,"end":11600.882,"text":"有"},{"start":11628.673,"end":11653.271,"text":"封立的部分我在這邊跟委員報告封立的前面的這個現在我們談這個3之1、3之2跟未來的3之3我想就簡單的在這後面的部分大家都關心3之1那你現在這個國產化要把它取消的話不是啊你只要講一下政策上一定會怎麼樣來調整來下跨城的速度政策既定的政策不會變"},{"start":11654.445,"end":11655.866,"text":"光電的部分其實也遇到了爆發農電的部分"},{"start":11683.886,"end":11690.379,"text":"部長有跟農業部溝通過嗎?有,我們都在溝通那農電的部分呢?農電的部分我們會先從這個農漁"},{"start":11692.867,"end":11697.671,"text":"這個農業跟經濟的部分能夠取得一個好的一個平衡點那因為時間有限我接下來再問一下也是我很關切的大林普簽說問題"},{"start":11717.327,"end":11731.044,"text":"部長,從林泉院長去鞠躬道歉,代表政府道歉已經8年,那大林埔從蘇院長核定也5年了,什麼時候可以來進行相關的這個登記的作業?報告委員我是不是可以請這個院管局局長?"},{"start":11733.926,"end":11743.191,"text":"向委員報告,目前環評的部分已經跟環境部都取得共識,準備要做環評的公告說明。那等公告說明的部分進行的時候,我們就可以來研擬預登記的作業。"},{"start":11749.875,"end":11768.055,"text":"市長我先請教一下啦齁,過去曾經有一個慘痛的例子,國道7號的環評走了14年,光二階環評的範疇界定走了23次,走了10年,導致第7國會中心啟用的國企還沒有開始來動工,這樣的慘痛的教訓我希望在這個大臨部簽證計畫裡面能夠趕快,環評多久時間可以來做出最後的決定?"},{"start":11772.499,"end":11773.4,"text":"就按照環評的程序來進行"},{"start":11791.88,"end":11819.877,"text":"加快好嗎?加快速度不要再拖了好嗎?好那再回到那個經濟部這邊好不好那其他的作業程序我知道都需要時間部長我知道都需要時間但是已經我講了八年從道歉到現在已經八年了這個連甚至修善後到底要不要修颱風後要不要修善很多的都猶豫啦什麼時候可以開始進行這個登記的程序不要環評走完然後督記走完之後這可能都是兩三年假設環評假設最快一年一年半"},{"start":11820.397,"end":11843.137,"text":"那督記又在走那走完之後再來進行登記那恐怕這兩三年居民都必須在等待我們會來努力部長能夠趕在今年年底前的時候同步進行也就是說環評走環評的然後督記走督記的但是預登記的部分跟高雄市政府來溝通預先來做登記至少在區塊在要土地要"},{"start":11843.777,"end":11845.398,"text":"我們可以朝這個方向努力"},{"start":11874.075,"end":11888.201,"text":"我希望年底前能夠進行不要等到環評或者等到整個都計的程序走完這個恐怕都要一兩年以上的時間老百姓沒辦法等那麼久了年底前我希望能夠進行預登記的這樣程序"},{"start":11889.677,"end":11918.012,"text":"部長可以嗎?我們來領略接下來我請教一下這個設宅的部分也遇到了一些問題當時的時候我們希望對於有些部分需要安置的部分能夠給予設宅的一個處理但是內政部好像有一些不同意見他希望不要破壞掉原來內政部的設宅的一些規定那能不能請如果真的遇到困難能不能請經濟部就做一個專案的方式做一個專案的方式針對於"},{"start":11919.393,"end":11933.067,"text":"一般的6加3跟弱勢戶的12加3來做處理這個市長跟部長們在地方的會議上也都對鄉親說了能不能技術用專案的方式來再處理讓這個涉宰的案件能夠盡快來啟動"},{"start":11934.688,"end":11957.65,"text":"我們來協商看看努力看看好不好盡量有朝這個方向這個我還是要請部長要跟院長跟副院長要做個報告一下這個案子恐怕不能再拖了那我希望涉宅競速的定案之後然後讓整個這個整個程序能夠盡快的做啟動因為你涉宅一定要定案了之後老百姓才"},{"start":11958.15,"end":11958.33,"text":"請賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":11989.762,"end":11993.853,"text":"謝謝主席及各位聲勁．有請經濟部的郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":12001.943,"end":12002.223,"text":"跟委員報告齁"},{"start":12032.383,"end":12052.57,"text":"我會很快的回答就第一個我非常清楚這件事情如果是真的那麼他要進來會用這麼多的綠電他光是要成立這樣的一個機構相信一定要兩年以上這是第一個假設"},{"start":12053.834,"end":12080.828,"text":"第二個根據我們現在綠電目前在進行的這個創電的這些案子我們非常清楚的到2026年我們會有550億度的綠電根據這兩個基本的狀況我很快的就可以回應他我記得感覺是你是這個企業"},{"start":12083.302,"end":12084.203,"text":"難道委員你認為這個會有問題嗎我這樣的假設會有問題嗎"},{"start":12098.932,"end":12125.405,"text":"你這個假設你要知道那其他的台積電怎麼辦呢你這個給他台積電也要其他也要還有其他台積電用多少電所有要用綠電的廠商我們都非常的清楚也都有聯絡所以台積電要多少的綠電台積電要多少的綠電台積電要用多少綠電台積電所用的電都是要綠電現在多少現在大概占我們的這個"},{"start":12129.394,"end":12132.935,"text":"現在綠電幾乎全部給台積電了,不是嗎?台積電最大客戶啊!現在,如委員所指教的,是沒有錯"},{"start":12146.038,"end":12169.124,"text":"大部分都是他他大概用我們的綠電現在七成以上七成以上啊有人講到九成呢七成是那個民間出去的部分其實台電手上還有一些綠電那個都還沒有出去啦那個量還有部長你昨天來這裡你提到一個數字我嚇一跳你說現在在這裡你也佔了16%這數字對不對啊"},{"start":12173.424,"end":12173.764,"text":"10月22日當天的分母是台電系統的供應量"},{"start":12203.936,"end":12207.793,"text":"但是當天的這個根據這個呢他的再生能源佔比是16%"},{"start":12209.312,"end":12235.463,"text":"如果大家在討論的9.5%那它的分母是全國供應量我想這個是分母跟分子之間的關係也就是時間...大家笑不要都說你現在正式免費的16%我是奇怪我從來沒有看過這個數字怎麼會變16%勒阿你也不澄清一下然後來請教那個命題不一樣我是不是請我能源署跟你報告一下不要不要不要這個我時間有限來部長"},{"start":12237.461,"end":12240.164,"text":"報告委員對於這個美國現在還在選舉在選舉的過程裡面我們"},{"start":12261.857,"end":12284.862,"text":"不會來評論這樣的一個沒有評論你昨天在這裡已經講了啊你說你不接受不同意啊你不是這樣講嗎你當然要表態啊你是說他對他說我們偷了對我說我們偷了他但我們當然不同意啊好那我就告訴你川普在美國講的時候全美國上億的人口在看他這個數字你講的時候包括卓榮泰院長"},{"start":12286.184,"end":12288.066,"text":"報告委員我們跟美國之間的關係是非常好我想這個你也非常清楚"},{"start":12310.546,"end":12335.501,"text":"在選舉的時候選舉的人所講的話我們在這個時候選舉還沒有結束之前我們不應該針對這個問題去給予這個下一些定論這個是我們的看法不過你們在這裡講的是對啊你應該要強調向美國人強調我們沒有偷你的未來如果有人在講未來如果有人我們要看那個影響是什麼"},{"start":12336.806,"end":12339.987,"text":"影響是什麼?如果影響到我們的市場的運作,那麼我們當然會出來這個努力啦齁,但是如果這只是一個,這若說笑齁,我也沒必要可以為了一個笑話,為了一個笑話。"},{"start":12356.154,"end":12361.399,"text":"我馬上再給我一點點時間我馬上講完了那我們看到今天的另外一個題目SRFSRF都很清楚的看得到"},{"start":12381.004,"end":12387.504,"text":"立方、可惠、可林惠、立江這三家公司他用發電廠的名利申請"},{"start":12389.394,"end":12408.725,"text":"他沒有進到環保園區環保園區可以不做環評結果這三家要做環評他沒有做環評結果你們我看整個報告SRF發展度發展看其他國家其他國家你要燒木材你這個燒有會產生大躍興的這個塑膠什麼對環保產生很大的影響就這個情況結果我們再看一下"},{"start":12417.735,"end":12438.105,"text":"結果,原來你都說不准,政府參議員說不准,後來呢,美國介入了,你們就推薦了。好了,我的重點在這裡,彰化縣,養寶實業後製桃園的牧師,也做SRF,也不經過環評。所以我就是問你一件事情,特別是環境部的掌櫃在這裡。"},{"start":12439.786,"end":12467.075,"text":"這些廠不管做什麼的SRF要不要做環評?要不要?跟委員報告桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面他本身有個總量環評是要符合進廠的標準沒有沒有他沒有進環保園區進環保園區才不需要做環評桃科工本身是有環評跟委員報告桃科工本身有一個總的環評所以只要進這個廠符合入園的標準長襪為什麼可以不做環評就要不要做環評?"},{"start":12468.547,"end":12486.919,"text":"我跟委員報告,SRF廠要不要做環評,要依照它的區位規模來判定,都要符合。那需要環評的就一定要環評,免環評就不用環評,但是環保相關法規都必須要遵守。那郭副長,我就是再問你一次,有關於SRF這個的一個申請,你們現在變成是鼓勵喔?"},{"start":12493.615,"end":12503.984,"text":"我們這個SRF是這個國際的一個趨勢我們沒有什麼鼓勵所以一定要通過這個環境部的這個要求我們根據這個法令的這個規範來進行我就是跟你強調他們要做這些東西對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF要做環評OK就這個我的要求是謝謝"},{"start":12527.932,"end":12544.461,"text":"我們中午不休息,延長開會時間。請舒巧惠委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請郭部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":12554.437,"end":12580.325,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想您看到我的投影片的標題轉肺為能步步前進SRF不該被汙名化我想我今天就用我短短的幾分鐘來跟您討論SRF的這個部分那我想再請您在備詢台上再次的說明經濟部對SRF的態度到底是什麼是肯定還是否定那它的定位是什麼可不可以解答"},{"start":12583.69,"end":12594.887,"text":"經濟部肯定還是否定我們當然是他是一個趨勢啦所以我們對SRF是這樣的一個他是要符合環境部的需求環境部的檢驗"},{"start":12596.411,"end":12614.89,"text":"他通過了我們當然是肯定的因為他是減碳的一部分是啊所以其實這就是一個新的技術這個新的技術可以達到的是我們在產生能源的時候是一個減碳的能源是一個多元創造能源的方式同時還可以去化廢棄物"},{"start":12615.791,"end":12643.678,"text":"所以理論上這個新技術當然是好的啊但是這個新技術當然也有它的過程過程當中如果有產生問題的我們就應該加強管理嘛這是兩個層次的問題很清楚本席在討論SRF的部分是因為上一屆我就是在未還委員會我因為新北的廢棄物問題非常非常的嚴重所以有幸在未還委員會看到了環境部能夠"},{"start":12644.998,"end":12662.008,"text":"根據國際潮流我們台灣開始引進這樣子的新技術好那可是我們很遺憾看到這段時間以來不但是地方政府對SRF的這個電廠沒有協助之餘甚至是直接跳到就是撤銷執照完全不討論中間的癥結問題甚至是部長"},{"start":12667.031,"end":12687.266,"text":"您剛剛說肯定可是我要看到你上一週喔上一週經濟部正式預告了再生能源發展條例部分條文的修正草案其實也把這個SRF納入獎勵的範圍這個部分給拿掉了那兩件事情加在一起難道你剛剛說的肯定"},{"start":12688.524,"end":12710.704,"text":"是是是怎麼樣是事實上你態度肯定但是實際作為既沒有協助也又把這個獎勵部分拿掉難道你其實實際作為是否定嗎他是轉換到另外一個獎勵條例去轉換有轉換嗎有同時轉換到嗎這就是我今天要跟您討論的部分不然因為我時間有限所以我想跟您確認一下在這裡"},{"start":12711.765,"end":12720.374,"text":"國內的SRF仍有爭議最大的原因其實就是這兩個嘛一個是法規未完備另外一個是規範未落實這是兩個層次嘛對不對其實法規的部分環境部我相信已經開始在討論了那我們來看一下現在的狀況第一個是現在的狀況是書面審查沒有實地會刊"},{"start":12732.546,"end":12752.018,"text":"所以不需要業者很多啊好再來第二個業者現有業者的技術設備不足所以他的垃圾沒有經過合格的分選問題是在這裡啊不是SRF的技術不好是這個技術燃燒的東西裡面你沒有把它經過合格的分選嘛然後第三"},{"start":12752.398,"end":12752.498,"text":"第二．"},{"start":12776.141,"end":12787.627,"text":"我們要設立第三方單位負責SRF的品質控管及認證工作第三規範SRF的業者應該要具備空氣污染防治的設備且戴奧星的標準要比照焚化爐以真正達成Buffet轉能這樣的部分"},{"start":12796.111,"end":12817.323,"text":"這是我剛剛說的第一個法規制定以及要落實法規的部分不曉得今天是部長在這裡後面環境部次長也在這裡嘛那你對於這我提出的三個建議不曉得您認為態度如何跟委員報告我的態度就是把委員所指教的這部分帶回去趕快研究"},{"start":12818.303,"end":12823.61,"text":"然後跟這個環境部我們充分的討論其實這個部分應該是環境部不然次長這邊我覺得這三項是非常實際的狀況這直接應該要成為法規其實就解套了一大半我們在今年6月到9月已經完成了全面的體檢"},{"start":12836.427,"end":12856.852,"text":"所以會有一部新的法規來把這三項全部都納入是嗎?年底會有管理辦法,正適用辦法是,已經在公告預告當中了那我們的那個排放標準也加嚴檢測頻率也提升所以SRF的管理方式要加嚴嗎?這才是第一層次的速度嗎?那是對於運作中的所有SRF廠"},{"start":12857.532,"end":12879.792,"text":"是委員您剛提到桃園那三家是未來要興建的那當然也要符合我們現在所有的標準那當然啊因為它還沒有設置起來嘛所以當然我們的法規如果跑快一點它當然要依照新法規嘛所以這是我認為第一個環境部標準應該要設立的部分但是第二個那個郭部長我還是在跟您您剛剛提到了我想藉著時間還是請您把剛剛這個說清楚我認為"},{"start":12883.115,"end":12901.648,"text":"即便你要把他從SRF從再生能源發展條例的獎勵辦法中拿走可是這是一個好的做法我們還是要鼓勵這個新技術來所以部長其他的獎勵辦法是什麼請您說明拿掉的部分是非綠的部分就是我們讓他走這個7天共生的獎勵"},{"start":12904.064,"end":12918.264,"text":"所以還是有相關的鼓勵這個轉廢為能的這個部分嘛對不對是的好那最後我也是提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下您的這個預告版本裡面第一條其實你在定義什麼是再生能源的時候"},{"start":12919.365,"end":12937.245,"text":"還是有把燃燒廢棄物的部分是放在定義裡面但是又增加了第11項這個燃燒這個SRF的這個器具又不算是電氣發展設備這兩個部分似乎看起來是有矛盾的部分啦也請那個能源局這邊可以再看一下是是謝謝委員指教好謝謝部長"},{"start":12946.445,"end":12965.763,"text":"好,我們接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在場。好,我們接下來請李毅林委員、李釗緯執行。謝謝主席。請郭部長。請部長、郭部長。"},{"start":12973.868,"end":13000.937,"text":"委員好部長因應我們全球的供應鏈的改組跟國際局勢的變動所以我們鼓勵著臺商能夠回流到臺灣來加強投資所以我們的政府也在2019年他用三大的投資方案來吸引臺商來回臺投資還有跟流臺灣最重要的還要再讓我們中小企業能夠加速投資在這個三大方案裡面現在已經"},{"start":13002.137,"end":13012.069,"text":"電掉了沒有?因為我看到你們又在延長到2027年是的,我們有延長那你延長有沒有做修正的調整?這個計畫還沒出來嗎?我們按照原來的這個計畫繼續再實施原來的計畫,但是你們現在"},{"start":13022.165,"end":13022.285,"text":"是的"},{"start":13052.438,"end":13053.238,"text":"目前來看我們的計畫來看是不會"},{"start":13078.834,"end":13091.401,"text":"因為部長本席會這麼問就是因為到現在我們合訂的1559家的投資案到現在年底還有632件還沒有完成投資這些你都有沒有協助我們現在這個所有的這個投資都有主案在進行你完成了只有927件還有632件沒有完成這些沒有完成你還要再擴大"},{"start":13108.615,"end":13116,"text":"那你怎麼協助他們呢?投資師沒有來投資呢?我是不是請他來跟你報告一下?"},{"start":13119.562,"end":13148.29,"text":"跟委員報告那這個到去年年底的話事實上是我們95%都有按計畫完成但是因為是有一部分是因為那個疫情的關係還有我們缺工缺料啦引物料大漲這些問題還有沒有別的問題就講是那個還有一部分是因為所以本期要提醒你們就是說核定了這麼多你還完成了927未完成還有632這些你們都要了解原因有什麼困難需要協助的你們要去協助好不好"},{"start":13148.77,"end":13172.15,"text":"那再來就是企業投資的話最重要還有水電的問題嘛他廠房的設計的問題嘛這些也都是問題所以在水電的問題上我們看到我們2030年我們台電也特別講到說我們的綠電啊要發電量要到30%對不對那但是我看到你們下修的資料要到24.7%是不是這樣子台電部長你知道嗎他們已經下修了"},{"start":13178.923,"end":13194.374,"text":"您說我們的綠電下修對說2030年要完成的部分應該沒有吧24.74你們給我的數字我是不是請台電來拿能源數一下"},{"start":13195.652,"end":13195.772,"text":"邀請經濟部部長"},{"start":13212.729,"end":13232.707,"text":"我們的綠電不可能要做基載的能源對不對那現在太陽能的發電就變成是個主力了綠電的主力了它能占有這個再生能源是48%你認為在我們天氣、氣候不佳的情況之下像這颱風到11月還是這個情形的話那我們的發電量會減少那綠電的話你認為2030年就會達成嗎因為有受氣候的影響啊"},{"start":13240.17,"end":13263.807,"text":"這個本來就是在考慮的因素之內啦就是說它之所以不能夠作為基載有它的限制在所以太陽能的所以就必須要調整嘛現在目前就是太陽能啊對啊 報告委員我們這些都是滾動式的這個在調整就是說我們還是與時俱進所以那個是我們的目標但是實際上我們一定要"},{"start":13265.348,"end":13282.795,"text":"基於實際的狀況我們來努力我們希望你們都能打出來也不是部長說的16%我現在早上大家都在問你這個16%的問題這個是當天你有16%但是每個委員問你就是你平均值是打多少目前都是8到10而已啦"},{"start":13283.055,"end":13293.217,"text":"了不起到12%而已所以我們希望2030年你們的目標30%你們就要達成那現在我們最關心的就是臺電因為降低這個停電的事故也在2022、2023年要強韌電網跟我們的配電升級的計畫都在努力在做但是我們看到你們這個供電穩定事故的計畫裡面2021年到2022年到2023年你看到"},{"start":13313.163,"end":13335.837,"text":"臺電你的歸咎你的責任部分是最高的2021年的話你的責任是40.9%你的2022年是422023年是又再提高到46.5%這都是你的責任你說強振電網在做配電升級也在做為什麼你們的臺電發生的這個這個責任歸屬的地方還是一直在提高呢"},{"start":13336.767,"end":13339.09,"text":"已經每年都在做了,要減少你們台電發生問題啊?"},{"start":13355.871,"end":13374.264,"text":"對你們責任一直在提高是都是因為你們的責任才發生在停電的問題這個就是因為隨著時間所以那個設備每一年都會增加這個老的這個狀態每一年都在開放應該不好了這個發生在停電問題會減少啊是我們給你的計畫是10年計畫強振電網跟配電的提升"},{"start":13379.091,"end":13379.492,"text":"報告委員報告委員"},{"start":13401.613,"end":13401.813,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":13424.206,"end":13444.578,"text":"桃園已經有5家在做SRF的這個發電現在又核准了這3家剛剛我們省次長也提到說在整個工業區的總量的環評的空屋的部分他是可以不用做環評但是你不要忘了空屋的問題"},{"start":13447.267,"end":13463.327,"text":"的問題是隨著風向一直在飄離開他的園區的所以你怎麼去測試那本席要告訴你就是桃園市政府已經撤銷了他們入園許可現在第二次撤銷我們也希望部長你把"},{"start":13463.948,"end":13487.27,"text":"民眾的聲音聽進去不要強行讓他們入園因為我們希望的話就是我們環境部跟我們經濟部一定要了解你們重演的條件跟規範目前來講的話這個SRF它的來源有製造廠跟空污規範的這個要做一個"},{"start":13488.231,"end":13497.581,"text":"通盤的整理的規劃裡面尤其是我們目前的鍋爐空污空氣污染的這個物的這個排放照"},{"start":13498.476,"end":13517.195,"text":"目前來講有兩種就是力壯的空污物歐盟的標準每立方公尺是10毫克環境部的話目前的標準每立方公尺是30毫克如果說是氮氧化物歐盟的標準是73ppm環境部的標準是100ppm"},{"start":13518.876,"end":13541.937,"text":"這就是環境部放鬆的地方所以請你們要比照歐盟國家一定要重演你的重演標準年底要出來但是本席再次提醒目前你的標準是這樣子對於這鍋爐空氣污染物的這個排放的標準現在在這邊所以現在請你照我們環境部"},{"start":13542.858,"end":13543.138,"text":"所以我們請"},{"start":13557.125,"end":13557.145,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":13587.485,"end":13588.245,"text":"接下來請黃國昌總召來發言"},{"start":13621.086,"end":13648.906,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請部長還有台堂的總經理請總經理委員好兩位好部長延續上一次資訊的主題針對有關於我們在再生能源的發展上我們是大力支持"},{"start":13650.017,"end":13652.19,"text":"但有個重點我們的政府"},{"start":13653.53,"end":13682.115,"text":"不能只會淪為喊口號要實際的藉機理局的去做啦!2025年20%已經確定跳票了你們陸陸續續又把發展的路徑給呈現出來了上一次質詢部長的時候請教部長的是發展的路徑那部長說不是線性關係也不是函數關係跟裝置容量是有關係的上次您答的是這樣那我請您把你們評估的基礎資料"},{"start":13685.207,"end":13707.613,"text":"當時的主席也是我們今天的呂昭偉說一個禮拜之內要答覆我到目前還沒收到還要拖多久?還要拖多久?你只要給我一個時間我後面還有其他的主題因為我覺得很遺憾我們在委員會質詢要的資料昭偉也裁釋了經濟部不給就不給"},{"start":13710.963,"end":13734.208,"text":"我需要利用質詢的時間苦苦哀求嗎?請你們提供基礎資料有這麼困難嗎?只是我們這一兩個禮拜你也非常清楚我們有很多的事情在準備那沒有關係啊你有困難就跟趙偉講不要才是一個禮拜啊趙偉的才是假的嗎?還需要多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":13737.97,"end":13765.049,"text":"只要給我一個時間不要浪費質詢時間在講這種我要利用質詢的時間來要資料還需要多久我們會部內裡面馬上討論這個問題再一個禮拜好我不好好可以好下個問題齁我基本上齁要問的事情是說在你們目前的評估當中有一個非常重要的政策議題農電共生還要不要再做要"},{"start":13765.785,"end":13789.042,"text":"要再做嘛我跟部長回顧一下可能你從企業界來啊之前這個臭不可聞的農電共生到底發生什麼事情啊可能你不是很清楚來看一下這個是2018年的時候在我們的行政院一樓內廂會議室舉行的會議當時是由張景生政委所主持找來一堆"},{"start":13790.463,"end":13811.243,"text":"綠能的業者其中有一個其中有一個他的兄弟是潘孟安的愛將叫做呂正燕目前這位先生他已經逃跑了他因為掏空案現在被通緝了這個是法務部調查局的通緝系統人已經跑了人已經跑了"},{"start":13812.216,"end":13837.105,"text":"那找了一堆不肖的業者到我們的行政院開這種農電共生的會議在討論什麼事我再繼續代部長看要求什麼臺塘市出750公頃的農地安排廠商跟潘孟安見面我先請教一個問題目前我們農電共生的政策還會不會要求臺塘市出農地"},{"start":13841.553,"end":13849.77,"text":"我們在政策上面我想是持續的啦如果說會還是不會會嘛我現在要了解一下你現在來請一下台堂總經理"},{"start":13852.393,"end":13872.321,"text":"當初這一段因為我知道你是去年才升總經理的嘛是是是當初這一段你有沒有參與報委我沒有參與你沒有參與嗎跟委員報告我們目前也沒有接到任何說要我們釋出農地然後要做農電共生的這個指示到目前為止沒有嗎是是是我要拜託台堂喔是"},{"start":13874.666,"end":13894.946,"text":"紮產、光電、配合國家政策我基本上是不反對但不能胡搞瞎搞連台塘重要的林地都跑去做規劃當初2018年在開始這樣胡搞瞎搞的時候要求台塘兩個月內要提出銀龍型專區計畫書這個都有會議記錄"},{"start":13899.008,"end":13924.404,"text":"全部都是行政院的高官帶著廠商在行政院開黑箱會議建於我們台堂的土地到目前為止你沒有介紹這樣的指示是嗎?是那跟委員報告就是說之前的這個銀龍型專區的這個計畫我們已經停止推動目前已經停止為什麼停止推動?因為我們就是據我了解就是說之前有在"},{"start":13925.1,"end":13936.729,"text":"地方召開說明會那因為地方的一個民意沒有支持所以我們就沒有再推動臺龐喔是守住立場是是好來再繼續請部長延續著啦從行政院開始找一些阿薩布魯的廠商來開命令會議接下來再看齁這個飯局我問過狗明星他承認了"},{"start":13954.105,"end":13972.771,"text":"紅船線聯合再生我們的國發基金跟我們的耀華玻璃投了30億下去前面投資錢虧損了100多億大家都在問國發基金我們國發基金什麼時候變成紓困基金結果他說這個是綠能國家對未來會賺錢結果我們國發基金投進去以後現在又虧了100多億"},{"start":13981.673,"end":14010.111,"text":"但這不關經濟部的事情關經濟部的是什麼事情胡搞瞎搞經濟部張斌工業區地給了聯合再生結果他搞什麼事情啊綠能國家隊馬上違約出售套利2.63億這件事情我從去年開始追結果呢我追的時候我說什麼"},{"start":14011.512,"end":14032.117,"text":"說聯合再生用特別股創造虛偽的假象說他沒有移轉結果經濟部這也跟你沒關係前一任部長發新聞稿罵我說他否認啦寫新聞稿幫聯合再生護航遮醜來我們繼續往下看今年夏天我們的監察院終於醒來了"},{"start":14033.21,"end":14053.1,"text":"監察院糾正的內容啊就是我去年下就是我去年開始揭發的內容我一路追追到今年夏天監察院終於說我講的沒有錯那現在關鍵來了聯合再生這樣胡搞瞎搞經濟部、昌濱工業區的地要不要收回來"},{"start":14056.224,"end":14072.067,"text":"報告委員,我經濟部的態度就是依法處理了。對啊!現在檢察院都糾正啊!違約事實明確啊!那依法處理地要回來啊!法上,法律如果規定地要回來,我們就會把地要回來。"},{"start":14073.356,"end":14074.457,"text":"需要多久回覆?"},{"start":14095.407,"end":14119.261,"text":"不要再寫齁幫忙遮醜包庇的新聞稿啦我看不下去啦要不要終止租約基金部的立場是什麼一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎我們要一個月要一個月好我給你一個月的時間這件事情知事提到這種不孝的躺倉政府該有的作為拿出魄力來好謝謝"},{"start":14126.977,"end":14144.499,"text":"我們請工作同仁發便當給大家吃因為我們中午不休息了請羅志強委員質詢主席有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":14154.147,"end":14177.824,"text":"委員好部長好請問你去過桃園的觀音區嗎?沒有當然也不可能直接跟桃園的觀音區的民眾有實際的交流嗎?業務上都沒有都沒有了我事實上我在桃園觀音區的馬路邊睡了兩天睡了兩個晚上你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":14179.431,"end":14202.324,"text":"不清楚因為那時候我們的民進黨政府答應觀音人說藻礁要永存結果後來睡了兩天也沒用我是陪著觀音的民眾想要來守護藻礁最後一樣照樣開發了那另外我也去了觀音好幾趟"},{"start":14203.39,"end":14227.217,"text":"那再次去觀音我想部長就猜得到就跟今天的主題有關是什麼原因去觀音猜得到吧就是SRF的設廠你知道觀音人的態度是什麼嗎你知道嗎因為我沒有觀音人的朋友所以我不太清楚我告訴你觀音的朋友覺得真的很悲情"},{"start":14228.696,"end":14248.284,"text":"實際上以過去的選舉分析來講在觀音區其實向來民進黨的得票都非常的高可是觀音的人現在是很不能理解為什麼今天珍貴的藻礁那要觀音人珍視的藻礁被破壞"},{"start":14249.403,"end":14266.838,"text":"然後呢現在又把三家SRF的這個發電廠要放到觀音去其實觀音的人很不能理解我聽了很多觀音的朋友因為我實際到觀音去了很多次那我這個心聲顯然我覺得我們政府沒有聽進去但沒關係"},{"start":14269.218,"end":14280.27,"text":"事實上桃園有這三家SRF的廠商進駐那桃園市政府其實跟地方居民多次向經濟部表達反對"},{"start":14283.14,"end":14310.873,"text":"我記得在總質詢的時候那時候部長您曾經說了一段話說這個主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府部長你還認為主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府嗎是的還是喔當然那實質上桃園市政府已經兩次撤銷三家廠商的那個路源許可我直接說啦這不就是標準的兩手策略嗎"},{"start":14312.434,"end":14328.91,"text":"經濟部一方面說尊重地方主管機關的決定．結果也要尊重溯源會的決定．而溯源結果推翻了桃園市政府的決定．我想請問部長．你到現在還真的認為SRF設不設．是桃園市政府說的算嗎?"},{"start":14331.784,"end":14357.503,"text":"這個規定就是這個樣子阿規定阿實際上他們說他們不設欸今天舉個例子齁我今天就中午想吃排骨飯對不對然後呢最後呢你今天一個手抓過來把排骨抓走就放一個空落在裡面然後你跟我講說你可以決定吃排骨飯阿蘇院會不就這樣阿他駁了今天桃園市政府的阿報告委員蘇院會不是經濟部"},{"start":14358.939,"end":14374.917,"text":"我要講的是溯源會駁但是你卻說主導權在桃園市政府我不是說溯源會是經濟部我說是溯源會駁掉這個事桃園市政府還如你邏輯上所說的能夠主導跟決定這件事嗎那就是"},{"start":14376.721,"end":14379.665,"text":"當初SRF之所以能設廠你知道最關鍵的文件是什麼鄭總不會不知道吧"},{"start":14394.454,"end":14408.112,"text":"最關鍵的文件經濟部的推薦函是沒有法律的經濟部在這邊不負責任到說我的推薦函沒有法律效益那你發什麼推薦函?那你發什麼推薦函阿?"},{"start":14411.803,"end":14430.755,"text":"你多此一舉嘛那不一定啊推薦函來來來部長部長今天齁今天有個廠商一個詐欺集團他跟你講說叫你要發推薦函你可不可以說發了推薦函跟你沒關係你可以跟我講發了推薦函跟你沒關係嗎"},{"start":14432.895,"end":14456.138,"text":"推薦函跟推薦的單位當然是有關係嘛謝謝你啊有關係啊這個上面沒有法律的這個依據嘛今天你用中央政府壓地方政府現在事後推沒有法律沒關係我跟你講這一點觀音區的民眾已經可以公判了你從人民的角度當初看的就是經濟部的推薦函你現在跟我講推薦函沒有效率就是所謂的誤會一場"},{"start":14457.739,"end":14481.239,"text":"你這個說法你能夠說服觀音區的民眾的話那我告訴你我正義建議部長啦你就去那邊睡個兩個晚上你看看觀音的人會不會接受你這個說法我可以了解但是委員SRF的發電廠反正你發推薦函你推薦函沒有法律效力發推薦函不關你的事就這麼簡單我非常的尊敬你"},{"start":14481.499,"end":14499.829,"text":"SRF我不需要您的尊敬我只需要您去心衡觀音區的民眾我必須要依法行事嘛法、理、情你講的都非常有道理來請問你經濟部發推薦還是根據哪一個法律法律的規定你可以發推薦函的經濟部根據哪一個法律發推薦函的政策表述推薦嘛哪一個法律啊講給我聽啊法律名稱"},{"start":14507.881,"end":14520.523,"text":"我們不是依哪一個法律嗎?謝謝你口口聲聲依法行政連發推薦還法律就說不出來我告訴你依今天經濟部高興行政啦謝謝你啦謝謝你部長你可能不知道經濟部有開專案會議有開專案會議這個是官方的專案會議並不是只有推薦案好謝謝"},{"start":14539.328,"end":14563.492,"text":"請蔡議委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":14564.788,"end":14586.598,"text":"部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果"},{"start":14588.288,"end":14590.509,"text":"我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話"},{"start":14614.144,"end":14641.092,"text":"那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許"},{"start":14641.832,"end":14670.327,"text":"我們可以從利息上面去調整可以借到更便宜的利息第二個可能就是我們台電的同仁這個薪水稍微大家努力一下我看是比較不要這樣啦中金的部分可以稍微降一下但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛這個動到台電同仁的福利我覺得不好我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣"},{"start":14671.127,"end":14681.419,"text":"但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候"},{"start":14684.52,"end":14701.945,"text":"也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我早就講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。"},{"start":14703.846,"end":14720.668,"text":"過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要"},{"start":14721.149,"end":14741.984,"text":"那未來以部長你的規劃．你想像中未來．很多責任不應該再完全讓臺電去扛在第一線．所以部長你這個說法起來．是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府．定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙．"},{"start":14745.267,"end":14760.5,"text":"讓這個來協助啦就大家一起來協助嘛就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱食團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的一個支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個啦這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%"},{"start":14770.709,"end":14785.854,"text":"那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%位級15%的調幅"},{"start":14791.656,"end":14804.383,"text":"有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就凍漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應"},{"start":14806.104,"end":14814.747,"text":"他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題就是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業"},{"start":14821.534,"end":14837.959,"text":"鋼鐵最傳統的反甩它是從大概在烏二戰爭的時候差不多在兩年前它就衰退了所以它就已經盪到了谷底所以它到了113年上半年度的時候它根本沒有辦法用它的谷底啊"},{"start":14839.499,"end":14865.23,"text":"他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力"},{"start":14866.591,"end":14892.172,"text":"我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來作為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間"},{"start":14895.635,"end":14911.241,"text":"那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為 我想您的這個指教我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會"},{"start":14913.902,"end":14940.228,"text":"他們來參考因為很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎"},{"start":14943.323,"end":14965.126,"text":"這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分"},{"start":14965.606,"end":14965.646,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":14983.707,"end":15010.704,"text":"我認為這個台電的問題應該是第一兩件事情就是說不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升那從這個本身的體質來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是"},{"start":15013.943,"end":15016.486,"text":"會在長的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用"},{"start":15019.398,"end":15021.859,"text":"部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是"},{"start":15047.889,"end":15073.602,"text":"過去兩年的那個成本的提高嘛所以造成大幅的虧損嘛所以我們現在短期內是遇到這個壓力我們希望說能夠改善我們財務上面的問題這改善不只啊不只現在應該持續都是要做好改善的啊沒有錯啊好那第二個我再我只要一分鐘的時間就好我想跟部長再就教一下現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被"},{"start":15074.602,"end":15091.505,"text":"中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了"},{"start":15092.486,"end":15116.196,"text":"我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了"},{"start":15119.02,"end":15127.086,"text":"這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討"},{"start":15134.034,"end":15149.892,"text":"最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆"},{"start":15153.456,"end":15175.426,"text":"回覆以後會來了解對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸"},{"start":15177.947,"end":15202.41,"text":"中國呢?他就是有他的競爭,他的競爭用價格優勢在攻擊你啊。那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護。我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好啊。是,謝謝,謝謝委員。好不好?我們會建立這個基準齁,來嚴審。然後您剛才所指證的那個案子我們已經退掉了。有退掉了?是。好,那我了解齁。好,那再繼續再保持啦。是。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"},{"start":15211.298,"end":15223.492,"text":"請王育民委員質詢。謝謝主席。我們有請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":15231.701,"end":15257.012,"text":"委員好部長好部長上一次本席在這邊指詢有關與嘉義縣大埔光電的這個爭議這些鄉親非常的辛苦套柵撒電搭著遊覽車來到行政院下跪陳情從我指詢卓榮泰院長10月8號到現在已經超過三個禮拜了但是那個協調會到現在都沒有開"},{"start":15257.992,"end":15278.202,"text":"想請問部長這個嘉義的大埔鄉親苦苦的等待而且到行政院下跪陳情這個光電案的爭議要怎麼解決?這個因為他這個案子是比較小的案子是由這個縣政府在核准的案子你們當時說你們要督導阿那現在都還沒有開協調會阿請問你們要打算怎麼處理?我們的這個縣府說11月初會來開協調會"},{"start":15288.552,"end":15305.624,"text":"11月初這個協調會一定要開因為這些年邁的鄉親他們都在等第二個我要問的是這個案子其實最大的爭議就是它是在都市計畫區內的地面型光電它雖然是一個小鄉村但那邊是住宅區"},{"start":15306.665,"end":15321.272,"text":"結果他在幾十戶的中間的空地要蓋上地面型光電所以居民是大反彈那像這樣子的話嘉義縣政府縣長翁章良這個事情爭議一爆發之後他也說經濟部應該要來研議這個都市計畫區內的地面型光電應該要設置嗎?可以設置嗎?可以不經過居民的同意嗎?這個部分我也要求你們應該要改善這個真的爭議非常大"},{"start":15334.659,"end":15360.069,"text":"上次我問過部長,部長你說不缺電嘛,雨電工生有2萬公頃,我記得非常清楚這個數字那既然有2萬公頃,這個是一個很小廠的這個光電為什麼連這麼小廠都要讓他們進到這個都市計畫的住宅區裡面去蓋這個地面型的光電而且對居民影響這麼大,你們這個部分是不是可以去研議要如何的修正這個我想我們回覆研議一下啦,為什麼會這樣子"},{"start":15361.564,"end":15364.722,"text":"好,那這個部分我要求你們多久可以研議出來?一個月?"},{"start":15366.087,"end":15392.996,"text":"一個月可以一個月可以齁好我要求這個要重新去訂定一個更周延的一個做法另外一個在這個事件爆發的時候你們經濟部發了這個新聞稿這個真的是自己打臉自己啊你們說這個國家環境研究院呢已經做過這個太陽能光電溶出實驗證明水庫光電很安全結果人家國家環境研究院說根本沒有做過這個研究你們新聞稿就這樣子寫"},{"start":15393.976,"end":15420.033,"text":"那這個中文水庫要蓋光電板這個爭議呢水利署其實也還沒有真正的許可包括很多都還沒有交的資料水質監測、防台依應、水污染防治、火災等等也都還沒有那結果你們的新聞稿就是大力的背書就覺得什麼都沒有問題可以用這樣的一個態度嗎那經濟部是不是都不監督只要遇到光電業者什麼都可以"},{"start":15421.306,"end":15436.666,"text":"報告委員我想這件事情我也回覆以後查一下到底是為什麼他會這樣子的公告對你們的新聞稿這樣子寫跟事實都不符另外一個現在發生在嘉義的這一場這個台顏綠能的光電弊案高達77公頃開發了4年發不出一度電"},{"start":15440.51,"end":15468.204,"text":"這樣一個弊案現在被檢調就是已經這個證據確鑿他現在就是已經要起訴了那這一個弊案我要問的是經濟部的責任在哪裡這麼大的77公頃台鹽綠能這樣的一個案子台鹽是屬於國營事業在他的子公司底下那四年這當中爆發出這樣子的一個這個問題那經濟部都睡著了都沒有感覺都沒有發現弊端"},{"start":15470.114,"end":15492.751,"text":"跟委員報告當初是經濟部．那時候部長你還沒有來啦對啦但是我有聽我的次長跟我講說當初是經濟部去檢舉的經濟部檢舉的什麼時候才檢舉經濟部應該什麼時候檢舉我是不是請國營司來報告這件事好國營司講一下什麼時候檢舉就是我們移送檢調大概是分別在一百就是在去年跟今年"},{"start":15493.53,"end":15517.198,"text":"所以是你們自己主動發現不對勁檢舉的?還是是民眾檢舉你們在檢舉?不是,一開始其實原來的陳啟宇陳董事長就是被我們發現那個合約有問題所以後來他才會請辭的那我們就一直在開始在整理這些案子那從他請辭以後就一直在整理這案子那大概到了去年的時候我們收集的案件比較完整的所以我們就去年就先去進行了檢舉"},{"start":15518.438,"end":15520.619,"text":"目前還在收集大家的意見那預計要多久出來?部長"},{"start":15540.236,"end":15552.711,"text":"我們還在等整合所以我們現在是農業部還有法務部還有經濟部那你一個月又過一個月今年年底會出來嗎?12月可以出來嗎?"},{"start":15554.442,"end":15570.38,"text":"這事情不能一直耗著拖著阿要不然這一些整個的弊案然後這個亂象我覺得是需要整頓一下啦我們綠能很重要但是過程當中如果有人貪贓枉法就是圖利個人、掏空公司這一些通通都是不允許的阿"},{"start":15571.361,"end":15587.77,"text":"你們預計多久可以出來報告委員 我想我們目前所我剛才同事的這個報告就是說現在行政院已經有政務委員來專責來處理這件事情所以這個實際的新的這個組織跟這個責任應該我想應該幾個月裡面應該會出來"},{"start":15597.501,"end":15597.781,"text":"徐欣盈委員"},{"start":15635.964,"end":15647.988,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天談SRF發電廠那您本身對SRF瞭解嗎?"},{"start":15658.252,"end":15676.484,"text":"跟委員報告我不是那麼瞭解不是那麼瞭解那我們可以用嗎現在有很多的這個大家的問題我想這一個我本人不是這個專家啦那我想沒關係我們現在用很多東西生活上用的我都不是專家但是要用之前要確認嘛"},{"start":15677.284,"end":15699.653,"text":"所以那個委員你要問的問題我想我的同事應該都有參加可以回答我請教您您覺得SRF這種所謂的固體再生燃料您覺得OK嗎這個現在是國際的趨勢啦好國際的趨勢而且它是減碳的相對於其他它是減碳的對減碳所以為了減碳我們可以犧牲其他的嗎"},{"start":15701.121,"end":15729.258,"text":"你要減碳你其他也要兼顧嘛所以部長您知道燃燒什麼東西會產生黛奧辛嗎?不知道沒關係不要浪費時間含氯經過高溫催化會產生黛奧辛那你知道現在不完全燃燒啦不完全燃燒就會產生黛奧辛那您知道現在很多SRF的燃料它這個在應用上"},{"start":15730.492,"end":15752.154,"text":"有很多還是產生戴奧心你知道有這種情況嗎有那所以我們台灣要但我本席知道這個在第10屆的這個就2020年開始第10屆的立法院就開始在推那推到目前您應該有接到很多的反應抗議跟爭議吧"},{"start":15754.002,"end":15755.184,"text":"好 那本席告訴你為什麼"},{"start":15764.79,"end":15793.278,"text":"本席的選區啊這個就聽到地方上有人說啊有一個地方是不是偷偷蓋焚化爐怎麼那麼臭然後呢這個那個味道常常有塑膠味燃燒金屬的毒氣味然後令人感到噁心想吐頭痛那您當然知道這個東西一定是地方民意代表他找環保局他們在那邊弄弄了很久"},{"start":15794.258,"end":15818.019,"text":"大家還是搞不清楚只知道那個廠會發出這些臭味後來也有人想說跟我們反映我們就去了解以後他就是用SRF的這個燃料的一個職場那這個情況呢讓我們發現我們台灣已經在用廢發電了現在要我們用廢來減碳嗎"},{"start":15820.199,"end":15820.619,"text":"所以SRF這種燃料棒"},{"start":15843.723,"end":15861.39,"text":"他在燃燒的時候不會產生惡臭．不會產生有毒物質．包含像戴奧辛．他不會產生對人體健康．生命的危害嗎．這一點部長您回答我如果規範上面大家都follow這個規範．他是不會的那不是啊那他"},{"start":15865.987,"end":15867.208,"text":"所以現在才聽到有民意代表跟你反映"},{"start":15890.428,"end":15901.693,"text":"我今年5月才來啊所以那現在已經11月了對所以我跟您報告這個問題所以這半年您都不知道SRF有產生這麼大的問題那個不是我主管的"},{"start":15902.776,"end":15920.368,"text":"不是主管,但是我是不是請環境部來跟您報告?好,可以可以可以委員您關心那個部分,我也知道您講的是哪一家職場我們今年6月到9月,我們有就全國所有的製造廠48家、使用廠18家,全面的總體檢那我們有提供一些體檢的一些建議給他們"},{"start":15922.009,"end":15940.056,"text":"回過頭來我們自己也會加強這個品質的規範以及排氣標準的那這樣不行啊你們不能發生問題再重新來提解跟委員報告他其實他在他在產出之前你就要確認當然有啊當然有剛剛委員所關心的代耗性的部分我們的標準就是0.1耐克那這個部分也是歐盟的標準我們希望都不會產生代耗性啊你還有你還有你只要給他一個空間那這個這個標準是國際的標準"},{"start":15951.44,"end":15953.701,"text":"這國際的標準我可以選擇不要這樣傷害人體的這個物品嗎?生產生活的過程都不要產生廢棄物但是沒有辦法垃圾一定會產生我們源頭要減量但一旦產生了我們用好的方法去處理它"},{"start":15968.018,"end":15972.461,"text":"本席接獲民眾的陳情就是他怎麼存放在那裡東北季風一吹味道就那麼重"},{"start":15993.757,"end":16015.941,"text":"你們有沒有到過現場?跟委員報告當然有阿就是說他有一些是原料的部分燃料的部分他必須要去做覆蓋所以SRF燃料只要產生出來放在那就會有錯位阿是跟委員報告這個我們台灣真的能用嗎?我們也跟地方政府、保局一起到現場去監督過了有問題我們會請他改善"},{"start":16021.083,"end":16045.011,"text":"委員如果你對這個部分有願意進一步了解我們也可以安排委員來看好我真的希望你們這個不是只有這一家可是你SRF你為了要在台灣大量運用真的不要減了碳結果我們全民的健康賠進去當然不會他一定是在我們的健康之下現在就發生會有的怕環保局就會告發那他就要改善"},{"start":16047.483,"end":16055.367,"text":"現在已經發生了 真的不要在冷氣房來做任何的決策跟判斷你實際到哪裡看過?"},{"start":16059.111,"end":16080.104,"text":"你講那家廠我就看過然後呢你覺得OK?我們有看過那目前它的連線SIMS連線就是剛剛講戴耀星的全區物質是立即要連線跟地方環保局不是你不要一直講理論現在那我請部長和次長哪一天來站在那邊我們一起在那邊站一個小時不要戴口罩試試看好不好好謝謝"},{"start":16086.288,"end":16086.328,"text":"請郭部長"},{"start":16118.854,"end":16119.094,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16135.168,"end":16135.328,"text":"主席"},{"start":16155.848,"end":16174.686,"text":"政府存在的目的就是服務國人太好了謝謝昨天談到能源議題你的專案報告我聽到張祺凱委員就直接問你黃仁勳如果反台投資他開出的條件要有100億度的綠電你毫無思索秒回答說我們可以給他呀"},{"start":16180.474,"end":16194.109,"text":"今天呢我就不對這個問題在給你提出因為你有這樣果斷的態度非常好那我認為啦就是我們的政府其實呢是搞不定這個能源政策其實不見得如您所講的"},{"start":16194.309,"end":16195.331,"text":"這個我可不可以請這個水利署跟您報告?"},{"start":16209.56,"end":16238.37,"text":"您知道對吧?水利署還有自來水公司對不對?是!好!沒關係您留在這邊他們給您資料就好因為我讓你希望能夠盡快的瞭解尤其是偏鄉的問題臺灣目前自來水的普及率是多少?您大概也不知道我給你答案112年6月份對95.5%剩下沒有自來水的地區就是位於偏鄉還有原鄉不僅僅是原住民地區喔"},{"start":16239.15,"end":16242.212,"text":"根據監察院的調查,原住民地區在111年自來水普及率仍愛鄉9.96%"},{"start":16266.386,"end":16273.969,"text":"新義鄉18.44%山地門鄉59.54%霧台鄉56.50%馬家鄉58.67%記得我剛剛跟你說55個鄉鎮嗎?就這幾個地區還有自來水其他地區都沒有自來水它叫什麼?它叫簡易自來水"},{"start":16295.316,"end":16314.965,"text":"你知道簡易自來水我們一年多少錢的預算來做嗎?不知道對吧?兩億。部長,你要注意喔,這個叫做簡易自來水,不是自來水公司的系統喔。然後你知道這要怎麼提報嗎?那我現在來告訴你,你知道非常的離譜,非常的冗長。"},{"start":16316.991,"end":16330.566,"text":"請地方政府提報簡易自來水的計畫．然後向水利署來爭取經費．水利署經費只有2億55個原箱．計畫內容包括哪些．看一下它的補助要點．"},{"start":16331.887,"end":16356.044,"text":"簡易自來水事業要符合以下的條件。第一個,總表供水的供水系統。第二個,簡易自來水設施使用已經達10年以上。第三個,用戶使用的建築物為公寓大廈管理條例所稱的住宅。請問一下偏鄉跟原鄉有公寓大廈嗎?第四個,用戶數要達20戶以下。"},{"start":16359.286,"end":16359.306,"text":"平筆"},{"start":16381.895,"end":16397.857,"text":"還有排定它的補助的優先順序。然後審查還要再看什麼呢?計畫的完整性。第二個,經費的合理性。第三個,供水的急迫性。第四個,影響的戶數。"},{"start":16399.739,"end":16425.029,"text":"部長,什麼叫做供水急迫性啊部落裡面就連一個簡易自來水都沒有了或者山區裡面我們的設備非常的容易毀損我們才會跟水利署提計劃嘛對不對那沒水喝就是一種急迫啊結果你們在最後審查的時候還要講說是不是急迫然後還要看是不是有多少的影響影響戶數"},{"start":16428.783,"end":16457.616,"text":"部長你認為這個是在服務人民嗎?剛剛我們聽到了您對所謂的一百億度的那個綠電那麼快的秒回答現在最連基本的自來水我沒有講自來水喔自來水是我們自來水公司壞掉了馬上就派人家修然後水是乾淨的簡易自來水有的時候是黃黃的有的時候枯水期的時候也沒有那請問一下一年只有兩億"},{"start":16458.556,"end":16480.791,"text":"你該怎麼處理這個事情好的謝謝委員的讓我們看到這個問題我在年底之前來完成這樣的一個修正好我是希望一個月之內要檢討完成啦好不好一個月之內因為我把問題都點出來給你了更何況我在立法院23年了"},{"start":16481.536,"end":16502.842,"text":"我很清楚原鄉地區,如果自然水公司或你的這個水利署不知道的話來我辦公室,我會很快的告訴你應該怎麼做才會符合族人的需求,可以嗎?可以還有另外一件事情,一年兩億真的不夠啊我們會來爭取可不可以?是好,今年就爭取好嗎?"},{"start":16505.124,"end":16528.522,"text":"今年好像已經確定了沒關係,如果我們有急迫性真的需要的話你用二倍金也可以來補貼我想我們署長這方面是專家啦他可以調整希望他是專家,署長希望你都了解原鄉地區跟偏鄉地區我們沒有乾淨的自來水至少給我們一個合乎規範的簡易自來水我們也有繳納稅金喔"},{"start":16530.464,"end":16530.664,"text":"請武力華委員質詢。"},{"start":16566.265,"end":16568.886,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國部長請國部長國務卿好部長好我在這邊跟你分享一個原鄉的實況其實在我們原鄉常常會遇到停電的問題就是災害發生停電那個是稀鬆平常但是日常也會發生停電"},{"start":16595.934,"end":16614.036,"text":"以桃園有一個叫復興區他曾經在2021年的時候新聞上可以看到當時的區長說一年停電高達100次以上那去年呢2023年呢再一次引起民怨新的區長也說"},{"start":16615.618,"end":16641.737,"text":"一年停電高達100次以上所以我其實在去年的年底我有到地方去做一個協調那很感謝臺電其實也有了積極作為把整個電路去做修復那我相信現在應該是改善許多但是我只是以這個為例子讓您了解其實在我們的原鄉"},{"start":16642.958,"end":16670.693,"text":"我們災害發生之後我們有很多的風倒木那這些風倒木呢因為搶災最重要的就是要立刻把路搶通所以呢以這個復興區來講他們為了要解決這個問題其實他們有跟一些民間的單位他們也有所謂的CSR這樣的社會企業責任他們就去做了這樣的事情齁那您可以看一下這個圖片"},{"start":16671.894,"end":16695.475,"text":"他們就是有一個移動型的去化設備像是一個卡車那聽到哪裡必須要搶災搶修他們就去把那邊的樹木去給它移除那部長你應該很了解像這種廢木材它其實就是屬於一種生殖能可以去做一個生殖燃料那我們也很鼓勵為什麼如果以民房的觀點啊"},{"start":16696.775,"end":16696.815,"text":"來 現在問題來了齁"},{"start":16726.937,"end":16740.897,"text":"經濟部我們有一個鼓勵的辦法叫做再生能源發電設備設置的管理辦法我們來看一下第四條之一他提到"},{"start":16741.718,"end":16742.819,"text":"我可不可以請能源署來回答這個問題?"},{"start":16769.233,"end":16785.823,"text":"跟委員報告當時我們在設定的時候因為定制型就是它有一個固定位置因為它要做發電的時候它一定會有料源的管理以及它的排放的管理所以針對移動型的我們當時沒有這樣的一個考慮那委員所提出來這個我們後續可能搭配這一次SRF的修正"},{"start":16791.744,"end":16802.948,"text":"謝謝 謝謝你們能夠做這樣的因應變化那我接下來就是也要請教一下因為我們也有一個能源署的公民電廠我跟部長講好多原鄉躍躍欲試啊"},{"start":16804.648,"end":16823.764,"text":"可是後來都跟我抱怨澄清其實我三年前兩年前都陸陸續續有人跟我抱怨澄清這個很好因為國家想要去做一個分散電網微型電網然後讓我們的這些社區也好鄉鎮也好他能夠參與但是我跟部長說吼恐怕成效很有限吶"},{"start":16824.665,"end":16842.803,"text":"我們看第一種獎勵辦法他有所謂的原住民地區參與再生能源設置的獎勵辦法他是針對原住民地區的鄉鎮事工所我跟部長講你知道目前有哪個原鄉有成功設置嗎有醫院的有喔但是你知道成功設置的有嗎"},{"start":16846.516,"end":16849.817,"text":"即便你要講台東大午紅葉對不對那個也是企業啊那個也不是鄉公所有辦法做的啊為什麼我們來看一下辦法因為法規裡面提到說第6條之一他說評估階段會給200萬元"},{"start":16863.702,"end":16876.705,"text":"執行設置階段他說下列情形為上限且不得設置超過新台幣1000萬元又提到發電設備不能夠超過20%儲能設備不能夠超過40%我簡單跟部長換算總之意思就是說我為了得到政府你補助我1000萬我設備要準備4000萬誰做得到"},{"start":16889.711,"end":16918.334,"text":"誰做得到所以您了解我的意思那因為時間的關係我再講另外一個設置辦法是屬於合作社社區型的好很好不一定要相公所做如果我社區發展協會要做也可以可是我們看一下他的辦法挺好的改了50%意思就是說政府你出一半我出一半相對合理但是還是很困難但是重點是說總裝置容量要10千瓦以上"},{"start":16919.315,"end":16925.894,"text":"我們看一個圖片好多原鄉正在做這種防災型的微電網喔但是他們拿不到獎勵"},{"start":16927.301,"end":16927.481,"text":"我們回去檢討"},{"start":16951.476,"end":16952.276,"text":"請沈博洋委員質詢"},{"start":16983.142,"end":17007.865,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長還有國際貿易署的署長,謝謝請署長部長好,我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在,經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項"},{"start":17008.886,"end":17024.545,"text":"那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點"},{"start":17025.326,"end":17044.557,"text":"右邊這一點是我們現在比較關注的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜"},{"start":17045.518,"end":17065.658,"text":"那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個它的晶片流入華為那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技"},{"start":17066.238,"end":17087.201,"text":"算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前它有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中它是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候它台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上"},{"start":17087.842,"end":17100.348,"text":"那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些這個盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度"},{"start":17101.329,"end":17125.727,"text":"報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著"},{"start":17125.947,"end":17126.768,"text":"我這個是不是請國貿署跟你沒有問題?"},{"start":17151.875,"end":17168.812,"text":"報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內"},{"start":17169.448,"end":17197.058,"text":"好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是比特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景所以是不是能夠盤點一下這個對我們的經濟安全可能會有比較好的保障"},{"start":17197.298,"end":17197.578,"text":"另外一個小問題這個是淘寶"},{"start":17214.58,"end":17243.62,"text":"那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被投審會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在"},{"start":17244.66,"end":17272.785,"text":"最右邊因傷的那一個呢也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦齁那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點呢不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理"},{"start":17274.225,"end":17293.578,"text":"我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告"},{"start":17294.598,"end":17309.85,"text":"希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點"},{"start":17310.73,"end":17329.056,"text":"這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下沒問題數位部有他們自己的清單但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開那可以一起也沒有關係但我希望能夠趕快處理互相蒐集一下然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教好沒問題那有要說明的嗎還是沒有沒有那我就先這個樣子因為時間到了謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":17349.355,"end":17359.76,"text":"請羅廷威委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":17370.211,"end":17381.159,"text":"您好部長好部長我很關心喔臺南最近有兩個立委在關心所謂的久違電廠設置這個燃氣機組那他們在抗議的過程我想他們的訴求你都知道吧哈囉他們在你是說兩位立委抗議對林俊憲、郭國文抗議久違電廠設置燃氣機組"},{"start":17394.485,"end":17417.793,"text":"林基炫委員好像沒有提到這個問題好沒關係他們的抗議內容大致你知道狀況嗎我在這個接受質詢的時候大概只有這個郭國文委員提出嘛好那他提出的內容就是希望不要設置在那邊那最後您有同意嗎我們現在我現在還沒有到程序不到我這裡有沒有同意我要"},{"start":17418.854,"end":17441.846,"text":"看他的這個程序的走的,看狀況是怎麼樣好,我現在另外一部分我想再另外關心喔因為昨天張祺凱委員有在這個諮詢的時候有提到黃仁勳這個AI大廠說需要100億的綠電,您是秒答應看起來是非常非常的有決心要做這件事情那我們當然覺得利益良善但是台中人"},{"start":17442.466,"end":17462.603,"text":"有所謂台中人的一個需求在今天我要提出我希望你能夠看到台中人現在的一個困境首先我想先請問幾個問題就較於你自己齁那雖然有一些不一定是環境的一些專業但是你如果可以回答就盡量的說齁那請問中火燃煤目前所燒的煤是賴慶德口中乾淨的煤嗎?這個我是不是請這個實際我們台電來回答這個問題請說"},{"start":17472.199,"end":17494.431,"text":"不好意思時間一直在轉我速度在等你們報告委員我們台電選擇的煤都盡量採高燃值低灰值的這個煤所以就是賴清德口中乾淨的煤我們盡量燒那個就是比例最高就是能源效率最好你結巴了所以跟他所陳述的是一樣的"},{"start":17496.444,"end":17524.074,"text":"呃...我們...好,我不勉強你啦來我幾個訴求要跟部長特別說部長待會環境部會有一個會議是有關於台電現在所謂的蒸汽不一定會減煤之前王美花部長有特別提到在台中如果要增加燃氣機組會幫我們減煤炭機組那這個部分您的態度呢是,完全正確阿你也會繼續朝這個部分來執行嗎這是蒸汽來減煤阿"},{"start":17525.894,"end":17534.859,"text":"對阿真的實際會有所謂的我們的藍媒機組會直接除役嗎?我們現在看到的是停了機組一增一減喔喔這個不一定"},{"start":17540.606,"end":17542.328,"text":"那你有相關的一個配套或者是在入到公文白紙黑字確定嗎?"},{"start":17557.946,"end":17571.956,"text":"這個不需要白紙黑字吧當然需要當然你可能覺得不需要但對於我們台中人是水深火熱我要講到的是幾件事情喔沒關係為我的訴求我要先講喔台中人就像現在我手中所拿的這個是所謂的空氣濾淨機"},{"start":17573.317,"end":17591.233,"text":"我們被當成是行動的空氣濾鏡機在這個政策之下一直不斷的犧牲最近啊你有沒有看到在整個網路的輿論當中只要搜尋一下電費帳單大家不斷的在網路上亮出自己的帳單告訴我們現在的社會他覺得實際漲價有感"},{"start":17594.435,"end":17609.02,"text":"電費真的是越來越貴我們一手被拿走了財產一手被奪取了生命從台中市衛生局所登記列載的我們相關的致癌率由肺癌是最高的"},{"start":17609.62,"end":17630.837,"text":"所以我可行性的去了解我去評估如果藍莓機組持續的汰除可以有效的降低所謂的致癌尤其是肺癌這個部分第三個我要講的是我們現在看到的這也有關於所謂的前瞻計畫當然前瞻計畫我們一直在講我們希望不要有所謂的中部跟南部的差距"},{"start":17631.918,"end":17652.169,"text":"現在看到南部高雄拿了1256億台中只有228億這些都是中央對待於台中市把台中市當成是二等公民我們第三層的剝削在這邊第四層的剝削我們要看到所許多的新聞我們都在問現在的賴總統我們的電力網的分部他跟大家說啊"},{"start":17652.969,"end":17675.556,"text":"電網分散提早4年完成現在我們卻看到如果這些燃煤燃氣機組同時在火力發電廠他一定是台灣之罪他的排汰量也一定會是世界之罪我們很擔憂在電力部網的一個過程沒有去過於分散沒有去做相關的電網分布"},{"start":17676.671,"end":17697.691,"text":"這對於中共來說是最開心的他攻擊台中火力發電廠就可以控制大部分的所謂的電力輸出我想以上這些我簡單的講了這麼多都只是希望我們這些能夠再協助台中市的發聲能夠給中央部會看到台中市的需求我曾經在火力發電廠決實抗議從當時我們就"},{"start":17702.02,"end":17725.272,"text":"決定一定要反對藍莓機組到現在我的初衷都沒有變那剛剛很高興有聽到你所說的藍棲機組能夠一併的到位以後能夠太除藍莓機組我想從這樣子的一個態度我們可以認同但我們也很擔心中間會被跳票所以我們一定要強烈的反應"},{"start":17726.272,"end":17738.707,"text":"我們的心聲跟需求謝謝委員你一定要支持我們的燃氣上去不然它你看不到燃沒下來第二個我是不是能夠請你這個了解一下子肺癌"},{"start":17739.69,"end":17767.589,"text":"不是我的這個燃煤機場唯一的要素我們可不可以了解一下臺中有多少人抽煙然後它跟這個肺癌症相關我們要了解這個問題我們希望真正的來同樣因為臺中也是我們的國民我們也關心整個臺中的這個發展大家的健康所以我要知道那個原因是什麼如果真的是我們"},{"start":17768.61,"end":17773.332,"text":"部長我們的結論很簡單我們都支持燃氣機組換燃煤機組我們沒有要去擋現在也看到如果今天燃氣機組這麼好那為什麼郭國文他們要去做抗議"},{"start":17794.42,"end":17815.837,"text":"那他們可以抗議臺中市不能夠發聲臺中市沒有說不裝燃氣機組臺中市沒有說不裝燃氣機組我們可以燃氣換燃煤我們最低的要求最低的一線是燃氣換煤當然啦他有很多理由去牽扯到說那個地方不對那我也講嘛臺中地方不對應該到外縣市嘛"},{"start":17816.798,"end":17818.379,"text":"在陳冠廷委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":17859.752,"end":17859.773,"text":"請過部長。"},{"start":17870.273,"end":17883.706,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長在前幾天AIT的Director谷麗妍她有提到說半導體要使用綠能那現在的台灣可能沒有辦法滿足這些需求"},{"start":17884.673,"end":17905.804,"text":"那我想臺灣的半導體公司他必須要用綠能來達到R100的這個百分之百再生能源的這些需求那這樣子的這個我們說他們的concern他們擔憂的部分那臺積電他就我們所知他應該是全球第一個成為R100的半導體企業那根據國家再生能源評測中心裡面有統計臺積電購買的"},{"start":17907.805,"end":17925.932,"text":"指轉公平證的數量是89.5萬張但是它佔的總評證的交易大概是99%也就是說現在全台灣的綠電評證幾乎都是由台積電來去買下來另一個面向就是說其他業者對於綠電的需求政府可能可以提供的是遠遠不及"},{"start":17927.287,"end":17941.653,"text":"那我們現在我看卓院長昨天答覆委員的質詢的時候他是說我國在2030年底要達到綠電的供電比大概是要30%可是可能沒有辦法完成IEA的預期目標的一半"},{"start":17942.657,"end":17968.518,"text":"那我現在想說我們現在不管是風冷、太陽冷我們當然是花費很多的心力在討論這一塊但是在地熱的部分就我們的資料顯示它在整個再生能源的佔比還不到1%我們好像是在鹿堡山而空軌沒有好好的去利用台灣的這個地熱的優勢我想請教一下部長關於這方面的地熱的探勘現在的狀況是怎麼樣?報告委員我們現在為止的地熱"},{"start":17969.719,"end":17975.784,"text":"大部分都是比較淺層的探勘那我們現在應該有差不多"},{"start":17978.052,"end":18005.381,"text":"不是啦,你現在一Gigabit一、伊蘭元山、大屯火山群那邊我們大概有7M的淺層的但是台灣跟委員報告台灣大概淺層的地熱運償量大概只有1Gigabit但是深層的也就是說4000公尺到6000公尺的運償量大概有40Gigabit這個40Gigabit全部能開發出來我們現在台灣大概"},{"start":18006.468,"end":18027.311,"text":"用的量就是40G但是它因為是地熱所以上來以後轉換成可以用的大概是8.5G8.5G也是非常大所以我們現在呢非常努力的在這個做這個地熱的開發我來了我當部長以後我檢視了一下我們的自有的資源也就是說"},{"start":18028.212,"end":18055.137,"text":"我們要臺灣自己本身能夠產出的這個能源是什麼就地熱、水力然後生殖能大概是這些所以我們現在非常努力的在這個地熱上面強化所以我除了中油公司以外我台電公司自己本身也做那除了國營的這兩個大公司下去做以外因為這是它核心的技術其他的民間的業者我們也鼓勵他們來參與"},{"start":18056.437,"end":18081.557,"text":"所以現在開始了我相信會開啟一波在臺灣發展這個地熱的這個這樣的一個形式部長有什麼獎勵措施啊?剛才您提到說要請民間的這些民間現在因為我們可以看到全球在地熱上面有成就的這些公司包括在土耳其的包括在菲律賓包括在日本包括在這個義大利的這些都有"},{"start":18082.277,"end":18104.014,"text":"我們請他們來評估不過我們現在我個人是比較期待我們現在中油跟中央研究院的那個所謂的探勘的這個案子因為它是一個比較先進的研究案我們打一座井最怕的就打下去水上不來或者是油上不來"},{"start":18104.741,"end":18134.008,"text":"那我們現在中央科學院他們的這個技術就是我不用打到那麼深就可以知道會不會有這些熱源謝謝部長我還是在強調就是說現在基本上你說燃油燃氣的這些機組等等我看這個已經成為一個很大的爭點但是我們也是必須思考說再生能源確實是一個是戰略的方向那也是所有重大企業不得不燃那已經是國際的都有這樣的需求是的"},{"start":18134.528,"end":18158.624,"text":"所以除了在風電之外、太陽能發電之外那種可以作為基載能源的地熱它可以穩定長時間供應4小時供應的那不會因為氣候、不會因為地形、地貌來去做改變的這樣是對我台灣很重要所以我目前看到是只有宜蘭園山現在是在做地熱的探勘那我認為盡快就是把深層的"},{"start":18160.325,"end":18160.465,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":18194.128,"end":18194.148,"text":"公佈會議"},{"start":18213.49,"end":18226.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18233.76,"end":18256.64,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18495.558,"end":18496.078,"text":"好,繼續開會,請圖全級委員諮詢。"},{"start":18522.568,"end":18547.807,"text":"好,謝謝郭部長那今天也是我們針對SRF發電廠規劃以及對我們環境影響的評估那針對經濟部跟環境部的專案主題報告那我們針對我們其實一直以來我們針對桃園三家廠商進駐SRF廠商進駐這個程序不正義其實我們已經多次也像"},{"start":18548.887,"end":18566.161,"text":"經濟部表達地方鄉親以及地方政府的反對的意見那我們今天就針對我們像我們桃園市政府已經有提出兩次撤銷三家廠商入園許可這部分部長應該知道吧"},{"start":18567.282,"end":18584.013,"text":"我應該知道好那這一部分之前我們部長也有在媒體來表示說有關SRF廠的入園與否主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府而且尊重主管單位的決定是的"},{"start":18584.693,"end":18601.511,"text":"好那這一部分喔那所以我們也知道第一次在桃園市政府以經濟部撤銷推薦函為由認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件因此那時候提出撤銷三家廠商的入園許可那當然經濟部後來在6月9號"},{"start":18604.594,"end":18616.035,"text":"也撤銷了市府廢止入園的行政處分表示廠商的入園許可是桃園市政府的職權然後依圖管規定即可嘛 對不對"},{"start":18617.469,"end":18636.001,"text":"是的那所以後來第二次我們桃園市政府又依照行政程序法規定認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件並撤銷三家廠商的入園許可那這部分提出的部分經濟部同意嗎?"},{"start":18637.679,"end":18662.944,"text":"這個權利是地方政府的對他第二次因為第一次你說他單就撤銷推薦函來廢止這三家廠商入園許可你們認為這是不對的應該因為你說這個從頭到尾決定權、主導權都在桃園市政府依圖管規定就可以並不能因一個不具法律效力的推薦函就來廢止這三家的入園許可嘛"},{"start":18663.504,"end":18681.614,"text":"所以第二次桃園市政府就依照行政程序法來提出說認為行政程序不正義來撤銷這三家廠商入園許可那這部分不知道部長對這有沒有什麼意見報告委員我想你剛才在所說的這個這個其實不是經濟部這個的決定這個是那個"},{"start":18688.217,"end":18714.982,"text":"有的一個委員會、術院委員會的依法決定那我們只能依法行政所以重點其實經濟部一直從頭到尾的立場就沒有改變你也認為其實這個桃科廠商入園的規定就是桃園市政府有絕對的主導權跟決定權他只要依照這個圖管規定來辦理即可是不是"},{"start":18716.138,"end":18732.2,"text":"是的法令規定就是這個是地方政府的權利地方政府要怎麼做他有權利這樣做但是送來溯源的這個部分其實不是這個命題我們也不能夠去影響溯源委員會那個是由專家學者"},{"start":18732.861,"end":18750.711,"text":"他們來討論做出來的決定所以現在第二次第二次那個市政府提出的還沒有決定嘛蘇聯委員會還沒有決定對他們還在還在我們我們不會去影響這樣的事情所以也真的因為第一次被退回桃園市政府也不再糾結這個經濟部"},{"start":18752.992,"end":18776.28,"text":"撤銷推薦函的部分他是針對109年12月23號那時候桃園市政府跟經濟部有開了第二次的會議那會議的結論也有公文啦他的結論就是說是SRF為再生能源的產業並由經濟部向市府推薦以專案核准進駐桃科園區"},{"start":18778.141,"end":18806.816,"text":"也就是當初經濟部就是把SRF認定是再生能源也就是國家的重大能源政策所以發這個推薦函給桃園市政府要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓它進駐桃科園區那針對這一部分我們也來了解當初所以山家SRF廠廠商是經過這一部分才進去那後來"},{"start":18808.196,"end":18834.226,"text":"經濟部當然也有表示推薦函沒有法律效力所以不能依推薦函就撤銷這三家的入園許可那當然我們這一部分我們覺得也是有道理的並不能因為他沒有推薦函就廢止所以後來桃園市政府才用行政程序法居然沒有推薦函那就表示你沒有推薦函就不應該用專案的方式讓你通過"},{"start":18835.106,"end":18849.746,"text":"入園所以要求居然撤銷的推薦案就不能以專案的方式那就必須按照原來桃科的土地使用分區管制的要點應該要重新來走程序"},{"start":18850.99,"end":18872.636,"text":"那部長覺得這樣對不對?同意阿喔同意嘛所以其實就就是只要重新走程序就對了嘛所以我也希望喔數院委員會要知道要記得我們經濟部的方向當初桃園市政府就是因為經濟部認定SRF是再生能源所以"},{"start":18873.816,"end":18897.458,"text":"經濟部一推薦函桃園市政府才同意以專案的方式放准讓它入行所以居然撤銷這個推薦函所以基本上這個專案已經不存在了就應該要重新走這個程序而且這部分我據我們有看到經濟部也有針對這部分好像有針對新的"},{"start":18899.58,"end":18917.187,"text":"我們再生能源發展條例好像有新的規範是不是要排除了一般廢棄物以一般事業廢棄物列入再生能源的發電設備因為經濟部有公告、預告那我請這個能源署長跟你報告"},{"start":18918.684,"end":18938.2,"text":"各位報告這次的修法是把這個要納入到再生條例獎勵優惠的只限於生殖能SRF的料源是屬生殖能部分保留其他的部分就回到熱處理用氣墊共生的方式來保留那我請問一下SRF它裡面所壓縮的原料是不是一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以它要區分我們在這次修法的時候把它做出來"},{"start":18938.28,"end":18957.842,"text":"就是原本它裡面就是有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以這次經濟部特別來針對這一部分來修改也就是說以後裡面有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物就排除再生能源的發電設備之外對不對排除在我們的獎勵然後改用氣電共生的方式來輔導它設置"},{"start":18958.943,"end":18987.489,"text":"對阿所以也就是說SRF就是如果SRF裡面是用一般廢氣物跟一般CA廢氣物他就排除再生能源發電設備的獎勵裡面嘛所以也就是把SRF如果裡面還有這間就排除在外所以也就是說因為現在是在預告階段對阿就是說方向就是這樣嘛所以也就是說SRF基本上以經濟部新修改的方向就把它排除在再生能源之外"},{"start":18988.479,"end":19006.853,"text":"在申請人員的發電設備的獎勵之外所以在這一部分我也特別來跟我們經濟部來說明我們一定要記得當初桃園市政府會同意他入園就是因為經濟部把他認定"},{"start":19007.874,"end":19026.203,"text":"再生能源然後經濟部一再生能源國家能源之重大政策所以才用這個推薦函開了兩次的會議要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓他來通過所以今天這兩個要件第一"},{"start":19027.003,"end":19054.923,"text":"推薦函經濟部也已經撤回第二這個再生能源其實當初那個時候我們也詢問過我們的環境部那時候薛副省部長他也直接很明確就講他說這個絕對不是綠能然後針對再生能源的部分我們剛剛也有講再生能源他針對發電設備他已經排除在獎勵之外所以基本這一部分我們希望就像剛剛部長講的我們"},{"start":19055.943,"end":19072.257,"text":"這三家廠商重新入園我們希望按照這個程序居然已經撤銷推薦函而且你們已經要秉儲在再生能源發電設備的獎勵之外所以希望這個溯源能夠支持桃園市政府"},{"start":19072.717,"end":19088.308,"text":"撤銷他的入園規定讓他重新走這個程序他如果真的是一切合法我們是絕對歡迎只要經濟部還有環境部在12月份重新修訂加嚴的辦法的部分他真的都能夠通過"},{"start":19088.968,"end":19112.501,"text":"我們也沒有拒絕他的理由我們一直堅持這個一定要程序正義居然已經撤銷了推薦函又秉持在再生能源發電設備之外所以希望這個訴願能夠支持桃園市政府的行政處分讓他重新走程序部長這樣可以嗎?訴願委員是獨立的啦所以我們也不能夠要…那訴願委員是誰騙的?"},{"start":19115.988,"end":19116.168,"text":"請月圓之"},{"start":19145.335,"end":19172.47,"text":"請葉延芝、葉延芝、葉延芝委員不在．請馬文君、馬文君、馬文君也委員不在．請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在．請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在．請陳培宇、陳培宇、陳培宇委員不在．請林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在．請洪孟凱、洪孟凱、洪孟凱委員不在．請羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在．請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":19180.675,"end":19209.008,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長請郭部長委員好是,部長好,我想昨天我們剛好在專報的時候討論過這個題目那我看到昨天臺電有回了一個新聞稿這個所謂的致船費三年三十億那三年三十億他們是說因為臺中的煤倉沒有完工的原因"},{"start":19210.305,"end":19235.783,"text":"那臺中煤倉沒有完工的原因那麼看到之前花了140億蓋了8年這8年接下來昨天的臺電的新聞稿看得我不知道要笑還是要哭他說這樣的話我們今年只需要花4億是嗎?你是說4億很驕傲的意思嗎?委員我是不是可以請那個臺電總市長跟您報告所以我先請部長說你覺得我們只花4億"},{"start":19236.741,"end":19248.978,"text":"要覺得很驕傲的意思嗎?他說他今年只需要花4億自傳費去年花了前三年花了30億所以我們今年只要花4億部長我的意思是我們連4塊錢都不應該花"},{"start":19251.308,"end":19266.719,"text":"我同意我也尊重委員的這樣的看法也就是說我們還是希望臺電把國家的錢當成錢是的把國家的錢不要當成他們可以自己浪費的東西來 董事長你要不要說一下"},{"start":19270.179,"end":19283.039,"text":"好,委員第一個事情我們要減少自傳費的發生這點事情是確定的這是一個我覺得不可以發生的事情但它發生了那面對但是不要變成好像這是應該的"},{"start":19283.885,"end":19310.658,"text":"那個委員我有說明一下因為自然會發生有的時候真的是比方說燃煤如果被要求降減煤的時候我們因為傳播的調度或者是用電量減少像去年2023年我理解但是不可以一年花20億啊是所以我們現在要下降這個叫做太離譜了要減低這個事情發生不過我也跟委員報告我們其實是有在提高他整個備用的備用的量所以才會往上這是審計部說的不是我黃珊珊說的是"},{"start":19311.758,"end":19333.313,"text":"你們不要去打臉審計部,然後想要自己說明,如果今年划到4億還是不應該啊?這個我回去深刻檢討,我非常贊同這個委員的指教。好,那接下來就是部長我想再討論一下有關基隆協和電廠的事。協和電廠在我們的官網一直都說今年底要除役。"},{"start":19335.107,"end":19361.783,"text":"臺電也說要轉緊急備用電力我現在要跟你確定他是不是確定廚藝只轉緊急備用我這個部分我的瞭解是不是轉緊急備用會看狀況來所以還不確定還不確定還不確定那如果轉緊急備用在環境部我上禮拜諮詢的時候環境部的就說如果轉緊急備用的話環境部就可以限制他運轉的時間時數"},{"start":19365.282,"end":19367.104,"text":"我請董事長跟您討論一下"},{"start":19384.022,"end":19413.402,"text":"好,各位委員報告就是我們第一個是協和電廠會依照環保法規在運轉第二個是720小時我們會把它適度的運用在會盡量購用不要再告訴大家說我其實沒有廚藝偷偷的繼續用好嗎部長我今天要講的就是說我不是沒有廚藝偷偷的用我就是一定會照著規範在做沒錯好,我現在要說的是協和電廠它是一個燃油電廠它的燃油成本一度將近是7塊半"},{"start":19414.462,"end":19436.065,"text":"我們收電費才收3塊所以協和電廠發一度電就賠4塊半如果他要做緊急備用我沒有意見那是為了國家的整體需要但是接下去假設環民通過協和電廠接下去的4階完成新建大概要7年的時間我現在只是要問我們打算這7年裡面花多少錢"},{"start":19437.086,"end":19457.456,"text":"去做這個緊急預轉要賠要賠多少錢我們應該趕快把它轉成燃氣的電廠燃氣要7年了部長這7年裡面沒有東西啊這7年裡面如果繼續做備載的話如果這個市接同意讓我接它應該是同時可以進行沒有那麼快至少要7年"},{"start":19458.622,"end":19459.202,"text":"好的謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":19493.953,"end":19515.655,"text":"登記發言的委員．除了不在場外．其餘的均已發言完畢．詢答結束．有張家俊委員．陳超明委員．所提的書面質詢列入記錄．刊登公報．書面質詢及未及答覆的部分．請相關單位與一週內以書面．答覆並複資本會．本日所列議程處理完畢．"},{"start":19516.816,"end":19535.995,"text":"另外,第21號颱風康瑞已經增強為強烈颱風．並直撲臺灣。中央氣象署已經發布海上跟陸上的颱風警報．請大家做好充分的防颱準備．照顧好自己．也請保護好家園。謝謝大家,現在散會。"},{"start":19553.345,"end":19554.089,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19558.289,"end":19558.789,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}